Failing to Treat a Malevolent Force
December 2, 2021 9:06 AM   Subscribe

Opinion: The bombshell about Trump testing positive also implicates the Trump family, Greg Sargent, Washington Post, 12/2/2021. The Trump family has long treated rules and laws as nuisances that are only for the little people. And the news [*] that Donald Trump tested positive for covid-19 before the first 2020 presidential debate shows that this tendency may be even more depraved and malevolent than you thought. *Trump tested positive for coronavirus before first debate with Biden, three former aides say… six days before he was hospitalized for covid-19 at Walter Reed National Military Medical Center., WaPo, 12/1/2021.
posted by cenoxo (47 comments total) 18 users marked this as a favorite
 
Our institutions utterly failed to treat Trump as the malevolent force that he was--and remains.
Part n in a series that literally started when he was a toddler.
posted by box at 9:14 AM on December 2, 2021 [45 favorites]


Didn't we already know this, back before the election?....
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 9:23 AM on December 2, 2021 [18 favorites]


It was pretty clear by how suspiciously everyone around Trump was acting around whether he had been tested and exactly when he had received a negative result, but it wasn't public knowledge that he had a positive test, no.
posted by zixyer at 9:27 AM on December 2, 2021 [13 favorites]


I mean, we knew, we just didn't have evidence.

I remember when the news broke that he had COVID folks figured out that he was likely infected before the debate. I assumed he knew and that he thought he'd give it to Biden in the hopes that he'd die from it.

...may be even more depraved and malevolent than you thought.

When it comes to Trump, I always assume the dumbest and worst and have rarely been surprised to find out I was right. There are always new levels of depravity to be uncovered so I may yet be surprised by something that ass-hat does but I doubt it.
posted by VTX at 9:32 AM on December 2, 2021 [60 favorites]


That's a somewhat damp firecracker of a bombshell imo.
posted by whatevernot at 9:35 AM on December 2, 2021 [5 favorites]


Mark Meadows Tries to Clean Up His Disclosure of Trump's Positive Coronavirus Test-Poorly (WaPo)

Mark Meadows Calls Reports on His Book 'Fake News' After Trump Said It Was Fake News (Business Insider)

Calling things 'fake news' probably plays better to Trump than being in the news for cooperating (CNN) with the Jan. 6 investigation (NYT).
posted by box at 9:35 AM on December 2, 2021 [3 favorites]


There is literally no end to the depravity.
posted by Nelson at 9:54 AM on December 2, 2021 [5 favorites]


No consequences? No end.
posted by the sobsister at 9:58 AM on December 2, 2021 [32 favorites]


I recall that fly aside, pence look like crap during his debate with now VP Harris, and I was concerned for her. Have there been any leaks whether he might've had covid sometime during 2020?
posted by NorthernLite at 10:06 AM on December 2, 2021 [6 favorites]


They thought it was a disadvantage to the campaign, so Trump brought the virus to the opponent to even things out. Perfectly fair.
posted by Sterros at 10:19 AM on December 2, 2021 [3 favorites]


VTX > When it comes to Trump, I always assume the dumbest…

Even as a young man, The Donald nailed his hairstyle and intellect early on.
(With apologies to C&H.)
posted by cenoxo at 10:33 AM on December 2, 2021 [3 favorites]


I assumed he knew and that he thought he'd give it to Biden in the hopes that he'd die from it.

I've suspected the same. Why else would he and those around him lie repeatedly about the timeline?
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 10:51 AM on December 2, 2021 [7 favorites]


that Donald Trump tested positive for covid-19 before the first 2020 presidential debate shows that this tendency may be even more depraved and malevolent than you thought.

Unlikely
posted by banshee at 10:51 AM on December 2, 2021 [25 favorites]


"I assumed he knew and that he thought he'd give it to Biden in the hopes that he'd die from it."

Given the events of Jan 6, etc, I really think this is close to the truth and absolutely par for trump.
posted by bz at 10:52 AM on December 2, 2021 [14 favorites]


There are multiple sources, many of whom have gone on record, saying that Trump (and Jared Kushner) actively enabled the pandemic to spread unchecked in the first few months because there was political gain in having a pandemic strike blue states. As much as everyone would be horrified, nobody would be surprised if sources pop up to say it was his plan to infect Biden during the debate.
posted by MiraK at 11:13 AM on December 2, 2021 [24 favorites]


Why else would he and those around him lie repeatedly about the timeline?

Habit.

I think it goes back to the observations by folks all along the way that Trump doesn't *lie* as that implies some knowledge or concern for the actual truth. Trump doesn't know or care about the truth. He simply calculates what it most advantageous for him to say in the moment and then says that. If he felt that admitting he has tested positive for COVID would make him look bad he will claim the opposite. If, later, he feels like it makes him look better to admit that actually he had been tested and is positive, then that's what he'll say in that moment.

I doubt he even bothers to try and remember if was tested or not or what the outcome was.

He's a bull-shitter who just spouts bullshit. Once the bullshit is out there he and rest of his sycophants get to work rationalizing and spinning it. They're basically riding an angry tiger and trying to work against Trump's will is the only way to get off the thing (and get mauled) so they just keep on riding.

Someone had to have been smart enough to think, "People will be pissed if they found out we tested positive and put Biden in danger of infection."

And maybe Trump or maybe someone else piped up with, "But maybe Biden will get it and he'll die." I don't think anyone planned to try to infect Biden. Just that if it happened it wouldn't be bad for them so they're not going to do anything to try and prevent it. Basically "I'm going to swing my arms and if they happen to hit you, that's your fault, not mine."

At the end of the day, pulling out of the debate would have made Trump feel like he looked weak so there was nothing short of a coma that would have kept him from doing it.
posted by VTX at 11:23 AM on December 2, 2021 [42 favorites]


In the past week or so, Michael Cohen, John Kelly, and John Bolton have all said that they don't think Trump will run again in 2024, because it would ruin the donations grift (Cohen) and he can't stand to be seen as a loser (the other two).
posted by box at 11:40 AM on December 2, 2021 [2 favorites]


I wouldn't ask those three individuals where the bathroom is, let alone to prognosticate on the doings of DJT.
posted by dragstroke at 12:02 PM on December 2, 2021 [45 favorites]


have all said that they don't think Trump will run again

He'll run. But the out of left-field surprise is that he'll have competition. There are GOP folks who know they can take the country but with Trump it's like dealing with a child. If they had a more...competent President.
posted by 922257033c4a0f3cecdbd819a46d626999d1af4a at 12:06 PM on December 2, 2021 [1 favorite]


How on earth would it ruin his donations grift? That's the total opposite of reality. Grift is the reason he didn't mind running before even when he thought he would lose. It's the reason he'll run again.

The only question is whether the GOP will have the balls to primary him. I have extreme doubts about it, but who knows.
posted by MiraK at 12:08 PM on December 2, 2021 [6 favorites]


If Trump runs and is "primaried," my assumption/prediction is that it'll be played for maximum exposure where at some point Trump will magnanimously hand the mantle off to his challenger, Josh Hawley or MTG or someone.
posted by rhizome at 12:12 PM on December 2, 2021 [1 favorite]


Trump has never magnanimously done anything, even for show. *If* he's primaried, he'll take it as a personal affront and claim "fake news" and "stolen election" just like he did the last one. He has no more loyalty to the Republican party than any other person or organization that isn't named "Trump". The only real question is if there are enough actual Republican voters left to vote for someone else that can outnumber and outvote Trump's rabid MAGA base.
posted by Roommate at 12:20 PM on December 2, 2021 [32 favorites]


It's touching how optimistic this discussion has been about there being an election whose vote count is respected.
posted by Nelson at 12:28 PM on December 2, 2021 [16 favorites]


This post came right after one titled "License to Ill," appositively enough.
posted by doctornemo at 12:28 PM on December 2, 2021 [3 favorites]


I'm a little mystified to find people here entertaining the idea that Trump won't run, or that the Republicans will mount any kind of resistance to his candidacy when he does. They didn't do anything to head him off the first time around. Why would they do it now, when the party has basically become his organization in every way that matters? Remember, the Republicans who couldn't work with him have left the party or retired.
posted by Ipsifendus at 12:30 PM on December 2, 2021 [12 favorites]


This is a bombshell only if there is an actual resulting explosion that creates any damage to anyone or anything.
posted by nubs at 12:35 PM on December 2, 2021 [3 favorites]


Optimist DOT, from my right shoulder: Surely this...
Pessimist DOT, having snuck from the left shoulder to the right, holding a 2x4 like a club and preparing to swing: SHHHHHHHHH...
posted by DirtyOldTown at 12:37 PM on December 2, 2021 [4 favorites]


Surely, this will be the final straw for Trump supporters!
posted by zzazazz at 1:09 PM on December 2, 2021 [4 favorites]


As much as everyone would be horrified, nobody would be surprised if sources pop up to say it was his plan to infect Biden during the debate.

[Citation needed]

I think we all know lots of True Believers who would be delighted.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 1:17 PM on December 2, 2021 [7 favorites]


And maybe Trump or maybe someone else piped up with, "But maybe Biden will get it and he'll die." I don't think anyone planned to try to infect Biden. Just that if it happened it wouldn't be bad for them so they're not going to do anything to try and prevent it. Basically "I'm going to swing my arms and if they happen to hit you, that's your fault, not mine."

This is why, when someone kills someone else, there are many different types of charges that can be made; premeditated murder (I killed him and I planned to) on one side, manslaughter (I killed him but I never wanted to) on the other, and many levels in between such as negligent homicide, depraved indifference and so on.

But they're all criminal charges.
posted by delfin at 2:26 PM on December 2, 2021 [6 favorites]


I don't think anyone planned to try to infect Biden.

I do.
posted by The Tensor at 2:40 PM on December 2, 2021 [11 favorites]


But they're all criminal charges.

Not in the middle of Fifth Avenue, they’re not.
posted by cenoxo at 3:04 PM on December 2, 2021


Far more important than his COVID status, is his refusal to pay attention to intelligence directly affecting the country. The CIA treated him as a problem child both in attempting to tailor information so he'd pay attention, and in noting his failures internally.
posted by CheeseDigestsAll at 3:07 PM on December 2, 2021 [5 favorites]


They didn't do anything to head him off the first time around.

Well, the argument has been made that they assumed that since he had no interest in actually governing that he'd be a figurehead more than anything - trot him out every few months to wave at the crowd and give a speech and otherwise he'd be happy to sit around doing not much of anything and let the John Boltons and Mitch McConnells and Reince Priebus's run things however they wanted.

They totally failed to understand what a narcissist he is, of course.

And so the rest of your point is entirely correct - The Republican Party has been eaten by Trumpism, the nomination is his unless he has a heart attack or a stroke.
posted by soundguy99 at 5:35 PM on December 2, 2021 [4 favorites]


Past a particular point, a system's inability to deal with a bad actor is a systemic problem, not an individual problem.
posted by krisjohn at 7:13 PM on December 2, 2021 [5 favorites]


This isn't even any kind of shocker any more, though I did enjoy Jen Psaki's dry commentary on it at the press conference yesterday. But this is never going to end because Trump can and will be allowed to get away with literally anything he wants for eternity.
posted by jenfullmoon at 7:30 PM on December 2, 2021 [6 favorites]


jenfullmoon, what’s the approximate time stamp for that comment?
posted by eviemath at 9:31 PM on December 2, 2021 [1 favorite]




I’m guessing it is the ninety seconds or so starting around 32:30.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 6:53 AM on December 3, 2021 [2 favorites]


Thanks! In an ideal world I’d have the time to listen to the full press conference. Failing that, I greatly appreciate having fellow Mefites to help keep me informed about important stuff. Or keep my spirits up on crap like this by linking to a cathartic Jen Psaki quip.
posted by eviemath at 8:23 AM on December 3, 2021 [5 favorites]


Psaki, asked whether Biden was aware that Trump tested positive before the debate:

"We were not aware of the reports that were out this morning in advance, no."

Asked whether she has anything to add about what Biden is thinking now:

"Well, I think--for people who are watching at home, obviously, this debate occurred more than a year ago. And, as you know, the president is very healthy, as you saw our release of his medical report from last week. And he is tested regularly, as Zeke [Miller of AP] asked about.

But I would note what is not lost on us is that no one should be surprised that, currently in Congress, as we're looking at the government staying open, you have supporters of the former President who withheld information, reportedly, about testing positive, and appeared, apparently, at a debate, also held events at the White House,. reportedly, with military veterans and military families, reportedly--many of you covered, so you could confirm that--and did that without disclosing.

And these supporters of the former President are advocating for shutting the federal government down so that 20 percent of the public who are refusing to get vaccinated or tested can be free to infect their coworkers, our children, filling hospitals--that is what they are advocating for. They want to shut the government down in order to advocate for people to assert that on society.

So, I don't think that should be lost on us as we're looking at these reports this morning either."
posted by box at 8:35 AM on December 3, 2021 [22 favorites]


My WTF questions revolve around the actions of the secret service. They allowed one of their protectees to spend time in an an enclosed space with an unmasked person infected with a deadly infectious disease. Even putting aside the risk the SS managers allowed to be assumed by the SS agents there doesn't seem to be an explanation of this that makes them look good. Either they didn't know the infection status of the people their protectee was interacting with or they did and didn't care. Biden's spokesperson says he didn't know so it's not like Biden insisted on the debate despite the risk.
posted by Mitheral at 9:28 AM on December 3, 2021 [10 favorites]


Reading Jen Psaki's comments via transcripts later is a great, great thing :) rev.com does good ones, CSPAN does some that are better on readability than others. I think I'd just watched it at the time when I mentioned it before.
posted by jenfullmoon at 11:36 AM on December 3, 2021 [4 favorites]


All I know is that nothing Trump or his supporters do surprises me. Doesn’t mean I am less angry. 3 people from my little town that I KNOW of were at the 1/6/ insurrection. ONE has been arrested. Fascists are trying to take over my town. Seriously, they’ve been active here awhile using a swing dancing club and a couple churches as cover. They took over the damned Republicans here. It’s worse other places.
I just KNEW Trump tried to infect Biden and his family. I knew it at the time, and I was damned suspicious of that fly-blown specter Pence.
Yes they hoped people in Blue states would die first. Jokes on them.
posted by Katjusa Roquette at 12:21 PM on December 3, 2021 [6 favorites]


My WTF questions revolve around the actions of the secret service

You raise an extremely interesting issue, Mitheral.

According to this article, Secret Service protection is automatic for major presidential candidates 120 days before the election.

What I would really, really like to know is whether any Secret Service agents were transferred from Trump's personal detail to Biden's during the interval between Trump's positive test and the moment the White House acknowledged Trump had developed Covid.
posted by jamjam at 2:37 PM on December 3, 2021 [1 favorite]


The majority of Republicans want Trump to run in 2024 and he will face no primary opposition if he does so. Multiple polls show him beating Biden, and against Harris it wouldn’t even be a contest. A second Trump term in 2024 is as likely as it is not. That is the United States of America.
posted by moorooka at 1:14 AM on December 4, 2021 [3 favorites]


If Trump runs and is "primaried," my assumption/prediction is that it'll be played for maximum exposure where at some point Trump will magnanimously hand the mantle off to his challenger, Josh Hawley or MTG or someone.

Somehow people still don't understand narcissism after all this time. I find that fascinating.
posted by OnTheLastCastle at 1:02 PM on December 4, 2021 [8 favorites]


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