Now imagine paying for all those things completely on your own.
December 2, 2021 10:22 PM Subscribe
If you live by yourself — or as a single parent or caregiver ... this is your life. All the expenses of existing in society, on one set of shoulders. For the more than 40 million people who live in this kind of single-income household, it’s also become increasingly untenable. When we talk about all the ways it’s become harder and harder for people to find solid financial footing in the middle class, we have to talk about how our society is still set up in a way that makes it much easier for single people to fall through the cracks. [SL Vox]
Monogamy? In This economy??!??
posted by Jacen at 11:08 PM on December 2, 2021 [22 favorites]
posted by Jacen at 11:08 PM on December 2, 2021 [22 favorites]
Hyperindividualism, the logical end consequence of "There is no such thing as a society".
posted by polymodus at 11:50 PM on December 2, 2021 [7 favorites]
posted by polymodus at 11:50 PM on December 2, 2021 [7 favorites]
What a curious thing to say, polymodus. Most single people, including myself, are not hermits nor loners. We're your neighbors and co-workers and friends. Some of us are single by choice; some are waiting and dating; some got out of abusive relationships and decided it's better to be single than hurt.
But we participate in society as much (and sometimes more than!) married people or parents. We also pay a higher proportion of our salaries in income tax and property tax. And we do all this for a society that renders us either invisible or pitiable.
posted by basalganglia at 12:23 AM on December 3, 2021 [178 favorites]
But we participate in society as much (and sometimes more than!) married people or parents. We also pay a higher proportion of our salaries in income tax and property tax. And we do all this for a society that renders us either invisible or pitiable.
posted by basalganglia at 12:23 AM on December 3, 2021 [178 favorites]
Labor Force Participation Rate - Women has doubled since 1950 and much of that added income went into The Two-Income Trap.
or as the Atlantic piece referenced from the FPP lays out:
My situation fell out rather well ($800/mo mortgage I'll pay off in my 80s) but it's still over half my monthly budget.
posted by Heywood Mogroot III at 12:45 AM on December 3, 2021 [15 favorites]
or as the Atlantic piece referenced from the FPP lays out:
Our single woman making $80,000 spent $1,910,400 on housing over 60 years, whereas our married woman making $80,000 spent only $1,147,200- that's a difference of $763,200.Housing is our #1 cost-of-living issue -- and not just in the USA, but all throughout the world! [Everywhere demand exceeds supply]
My situation fell out rather well ($800/mo mortgage I'll pay off in my 80s) but it's still over half my monthly budget.
posted by Heywood Mogroot III at 12:45 AM on December 3, 2021 [15 favorites]
There's also the issue that a lot of labour gets dumped on us in the workplace. I've had many a job where I've regularly been on the receiving end of "oh, indemandgirl, you don't have a partner or kids, you won't mind working late/being on call this weekend/doing the trip to see a client in Inverness, will you?".
The attitude is that if you don't have a partner and in particular if you're childless that you obviously have nothing else going on in your life and won't mind picking up the slack when it's your co-worker's date night or their kid has a thing or whatever. There's even an undertone that you might be grateful to them for giving you the opportunity to do something other than retire to your bedsit with your meal-for-one. In past jobs, I've worked measurably more hours than people who've been able to slope off whenever their kid has a thing.
posted by indemandgirl at 2:55 AM on December 3, 2021 [52 favorites]
The attitude is that if you don't have a partner and in particular if you're childless that you obviously have nothing else going on in your life and won't mind picking up the slack when it's your co-worker's date night or their kid has a thing or whatever. There's even an undertone that you might be grateful to them for giving you the opportunity to do something other than retire to your bedsit with your meal-for-one. In past jobs, I've worked measurably more hours than people who've been able to slope off whenever their kid has a thing.
posted by indemandgirl at 2:55 AM on December 3, 2021 [52 favorites]
Great article. I read a book a number of years ago about how American society punishes people for being single and became much more aware of all the seemingly innocuous ways this comes up. I refuse to buy a membership to my local nonprofit theater because it costs the same for one or two people at the same address. When they've called and tried to sell me one, I tell them that I'm not OK with subsidizing two married surgeons. It's not like they're going to sit in each other's laps and only take up one seat.
One point that is missing in the otherwise excellent section on social security is that this really screws over divorced people who were stay-at-home parents. I was married for seven years and a stay-at-home parent for most of that time. Since I don't hit the magic ten-year mark where I could benefit from my ex-husband's earnings (and higher salary), I get literally nothing for those years. If I hadn't been a stay-at-home parent, I would have been employed, and my salary from those years would increase my social security benefits. But when I get the summary of my earnings over my lifetime, those years are just big zeros. And of course, during that time, he was building a career and I had to start from scratch when we got divorced. It's maddening.
Plus if you have a serious illness, the healthcare system in the US relies a lot on the unpaid labor of other people, and it's much easier if you have a spouse. The most recommended initial treatment for the cancer I have is a stem cell transplant, which requires you to have a person in your life who is willing to live with you and not leave you alone for two weeks. This is much more difficult for single people to arrange, but they literally will not give you this treatment that they consider lifesaving if you cannot find a person who will do this for you. I ended up opting out of this treatment mostly for other reasons (though this was part of my consideration), but there are now clinical trials of CAR T therapy, which has the same kind of requirements. At some point CAR T may literally be what stands between me and death, but in order to have this treatment, I will need to find a person who can take two weeks off of work to live with me. I think I can probably make it work, but for many people, this will be impossible. When I talked to the stem cell transplant doctor, his response was "I don't make the rules." And I know he doesn't, but it's just outrageous that not dying requires you to have friends who can do something like this.
posted by FencingGal at 4:55 AM on December 3, 2021 [97 favorites]
One point that is missing in the otherwise excellent section on social security is that this really screws over divorced people who were stay-at-home parents. I was married for seven years and a stay-at-home parent for most of that time. Since I don't hit the magic ten-year mark where I could benefit from my ex-husband's earnings (and higher salary), I get literally nothing for those years. If I hadn't been a stay-at-home parent, I would have been employed, and my salary from those years would increase my social security benefits. But when I get the summary of my earnings over my lifetime, those years are just big zeros. And of course, during that time, he was building a career and I had to start from scratch when we got divorced. It's maddening.
Plus if you have a serious illness, the healthcare system in the US relies a lot on the unpaid labor of other people, and it's much easier if you have a spouse. The most recommended initial treatment for the cancer I have is a stem cell transplant, which requires you to have a person in your life who is willing to live with you and not leave you alone for two weeks. This is much more difficult for single people to arrange, but they literally will not give you this treatment that they consider lifesaving if you cannot find a person who will do this for you. I ended up opting out of this treatment mostly for other reasons (though this was part of my consideration), but there are now clinical trials of CAR T therapy, which has the same kind of requirements. At some point CAR T may literally be what stands between me and death, but in order to have this treatment, I will need to find a person who can take two weeks off of work to live with me. I think I can probably make it work, but for many people, this will be impossible. When I talked to the stem cell transplant doctor, his response was "I don't make the rules." And I know he doesn't, but it's just outrageous that not dying requires you to have friends who can do something like this.
posted by FencingGal at 4:55 AM on December 3, 2021 [97 favorites]
I definitely agree that tax policy, etc should be updated to reflect the way we live today. I think the article would have been better if the author had interviewed some low income people about their struggles. The three people they did profile all seemed to be fine, except it was hard for them to buy houses. The system is messed up, and there should be more affordable housing, but feeling like you really have to buy a house is buying into the system. A person alone or with one child does not need a house.
posted by snofoam at 4:56 AM on December 3, 2021 [8 favorites]
posted by snofoam at 4:56 AM on December 3, 2021 [8 favorites]
What jenfullmoon said. Glad to see an article that isn’t all “Yay! Being single is empowering!”
posted by Melismata at 5:08 AM on December 3, 2021 [5 favorites]
posted by Melismata at 5:08 AM on December 3, 2021 [5 favorites]
A person alone or with one child does not need a house.
I fully disagree. Home ownership means a known quantity for housing costs and takes you out of the ever-more-expensive rental lottery. It means stability - said from the experience of having my long-term rental unit sold and the new landlords raising rent by 50% forcing an unwanted move. Home ownership means being able to move to a place with land where I can grow food which greatly improves my mental health and also offset food expenses. It means having enough room for a stand alone freezer and basement where I can put up food and hold onto family mementos without having to pay for a storage unit or decide what of my great grandmother’s handmade quilts I can actually fit into an under bed storage box.
It means a garage which reduces how much time I need to budget for to clear off snow and ice in the winter and protects my car from accelerated decay and/or break ins - both extra costs I have had to suck up as a renter.
It also affords me possibly my only hope of having something of financial value to pass on to my child when I die.
So please don’t tell me what I do or don’t “need”.
posted by Silvery Fish at 5:11 AM on December 3, 2021 [180 favorites]
I fully disagree. Home ownership means a known quantity for housing costs and takes you out of the ever-more-expensive rental lottery. It means stability - said from the experience of having my long-term rental unit sold and the new landlords raising rent by 50% forcing an unwanted move. Home ownership means being able to move to a place with land where I can grow food which greatly improves my mental health and also offset food expenses. It means having enough room for a stand alone freezer and basement where I can put up food and hold onto family mementos without having to pay for a storage unit or decide what of my great grandmother’s handmade quilts I can actually fit into an under bed storage box.
It means a garage which reduces how much time I need to budget for to clear off snow and ice in the winter and protects my car from accelerated decay and/or break ins - both extra costs I have had to suck up as a renter.
It also affords me possibly my only hope of having something of financial value to pass on to my child when I die.
So please don’t tell me what I do or don’t “need”.
posted by Silvery Fish at 5:11 AM on December 3, 2021 [180 favorites]
Big fan of this writer, but I don’t feel like this is her best work. The conclusion is a bit sparse and the interviews are very limited; as depicted in the article you’d think it was a problem for the middle class.
In Patti Smith’s autobiography she talks about support her and her partner in New York on her wages as a part-time supermarket worker. I don’t think the problem is that it’s expensive for single people, I think the problem is that it’s expensive for everybody (because of neoliberal policies) and single people have it worse.
posted by The River Ivel at 5:18 AM on December 3, 2021 [14 favorites]
In Patti Smith’s autobiography she talks about support her and her partner in New York on her wages as a part-time supermarket worker. I don’t think the problem is that it’s expensive for single people, I think the problem is that it’s expensive for everybody (because of neoliberal policies) and single people have it worse.
posted by The River Ivel at 5:18 AM on December 3, 2021 [14 favorites]
Yes. I know several single people who purchased condos as insurance against constantly rising rents. As long as landlords keep profiting off of renters, the only way to true financial stability is owning a home, whether it's a house or not.
posted by hydropsyche at 5:19 AM on December 3, 2021 [18 favorites]
posted by hydropsyche at 5:19 AM on December 3, 2021 [18 favorites]
A person alone or with one child does not need a house.
Nobody needs a house. Comedian Jim Gaffigan lives with his wife and five children in a two-bedroom apartment in New York.
But as Silvery Fish points out, there are many reasons that a single person or a person with one child would want to have a house.
I just wish there were more of an effort to build small houses (not tiny houses). I don't know if it's because I'm looking in the Salt Lake City area, but I see house after house with five or more bedrooms and bathrooms (who wants to clean five bathrooms?).
posted by FencingGal at 5:20 AM on December 3, 2021 [30 favorites]
Nobody needs a house. Comedian Jim Gaffigan lives with his wife and five children in a two-bedroom apartment in New York.
But as Silvery Fish points out, there are many reasons that a single person or a person with one child would want to have a house.
I just wish there were more of an effort to build small houses (not tiny houses). I don't know if it's because I'm looking in the Salt Lake City area, but I see house after house with five or more bedrooms and bathrooms (who wants to clean five bathrooms?).
posted by FencingGal at 5:20 AM on December 3, 2021 [30 favorites]
None of this comes as a surprise to me, but I would add that this pattern even goes to programs intended to help people who can't afford housing. In my city, there are rare affordable housing lotteries for low income people (including myself), and 90% of them require two or more people to qualify. If you're single, you have a better chance of being hit by lightning.
posted by pangolin party at 5:20 AM on December 3, 2021 [16 favorites]
posted by pangolin party at 5:20 AM on December 3, 2021 [16 favorites]
Of course as many straight women discover, while they will care for their sick or aging husbands, said husbands often panic and divorce them mid-illness.
posted by emjaybee at 5:24 AM on December 3, 2021 [27 favorites]
posted by emjaybee at 5:24 AM on December 3, 2021 [27 favorites]
Hey folks, if you’re coming into here to tell single people how they’re doing life wrong, or why they’re wrong for wanting normal things like security and privacy, please rethink your comment and your involvement in this thread.
posted by punchtothehead at 5:25 AM on December 3, 2021 [118 favorites]
posted by punchtothehead at 5:25 AM on December 3, 2021 [118 favorites]
My point was that it is a choice, not a need.
Perhaps that was your point, but coming into a thread about the many ways in which single life is more difficult and asserting by implication that unless you're a family of three or more people a desire to have your own home is irrelevant is, at best, missing the point. The house question is a red herring and a derail. The point of the article is not renting v. owning, flat v. house, it's that regardless of which they choose it will always be more difficult for a single person.
And let's not forget that down payments don't apply just to detached homes. Unless you're suggesting that any single person who manages to scrape together the funds to buy a flat is living beyond their 'need' as well.
posted by myotahapea at 5:56 AM on December 3, 2021 [44 favorites]
Perhaps that was your point, but coming into a thread about the many ways in which single life is more difficult and asserting by implication that unless you're a family of three or more people a desire to have your own home is irrelevant is, at best, missing the point. The house question is a red herring and a derail. The point of the article is not renting v. owning, flat v. house, it's that regardless of which they choose it will always be more difficult for a single person.
And let's not forget that down payments don't apply just to detached homes. Unless you're suggesting that any single person who manages to scrape together the funds to buy a flat is living beyond their 'need' as well.
posted by myotahapea at 5:56 AM on December 3, 2021 [44 favorites]
I think there are different challenges to being single. I'm in a single income household, but that single income is about double the national average, so we can afford to pay for everything including a house (so long as it's a modest house in a provincial city). Being on a lower income means a more difficult life, regardless of how many people are generating that income. Where being single bites is the absolute self reliance in the day-to-day. Even though we are affected by the risk aversion that comes from only having one income-earning person, we can divide the labour of looking after the home, and the cognitive load of managing our lives, and we provide each other with support. I am the breadwinner and am financially worse off by having a non-earning partner compared to being single. But in other practical terms I am much better off with a partner. My partner has a clear net benefit from being with me rather than being single, even though I create extra housework for them.
posted by plonkee at 5:58 AM on December 3, 2021 [13 favorites]
posted by plonkee at 5:58 AM on December 3, 2021 [13 favorites]
The internet is full of people more than willing to explain what everyone else needs. Metafilter is no exception and in fact really excells in this area with wide community approval (ever read a thread about cars?). It's a good idea to keep this all in mind when contributing to the conversation.
I feel for single households. Community living, even a community of two, has always been easier. In my lifestyle and work, living single would always mean a serious downgrade in quality and comfort, not to mention mental stability.
posted by 2N2222 at 6:01 AM on December 3, 2021 [15 favorites]
I feel for single households. Community living, even a community of two, has always been easier. In my lifestyle and work, living single would always mean a serious downgrade in quality and comfort, not to mention mental stability.
posted by 2N2222 at 6:01 AM on December 3, 2021 [15 favorites]
I just want to clarify that my comment that nobody needs a house was in response to a comment saying that single people or single people with one child don't need a house.
I didn't mean it to tell other people what they need - just to say that if we judge by what we decide other people need, we could justify saying that nobody really "needs" a house.
I am single, wanting to move, and having a tough time finding a house I can afford even though my income if very much in the comfortable range.
posted by FencingGal at 6:06 AM on December 3, 2021 [8 favorites]
I didn't mean it to tell other people what they need - just to say that if we judge by what we decide other people need, we could justify saying that nobody really "needs" a house.
I am single, wanting to move, and having a tough time finding a house I can afford even though my income if very much in the comfortable range.
posted by FencingGal at 6:06 AM on December 3, 2021 [8 favorites]
I live in rural, central Vermont where there is no public transportation or a full “downtown” that has all the basic needs. I am here because I needed to move back to take care of my mother when she was diagnosed with Stage IV adrenal cancer, while she was the sole caretaker of my father with declining health who was extra needy. I am single (divorced 20 years ago), and I’m an only child. I stayed here because it wiped me out financially, had to let go of my job, savings and I needed to start over. I needed to be where I had extended family (cousins) I could lean on for support and was fortunate enough to get a stable job with the State. I scraped together $5k for a 3% down payment on a $156k home. I refinanced that home last year and there was a $65k increase on the appraisal. This would not have happened if I purchased the one alternative in my price range, a crappy old ski condo. I am now almost 50 and that is my smallest bit of security (if it even maintains) that I will use to take care of myself when I can no longer do it on my own, because trying to put money away paycheck to paycheck is near impossible. Before buying this house, I had no hope for security in that area and would joke that I hope I go quick so I don’t have to pay for care.
Not everyone lives in/near a city, not everyone can move to one. Other's utopias are not my reality. I'm just trying to live and be/feel safe.
posted by kybix at 6:12 AM on December 3, 2021 [48 favorites]
Not everyone lives in/near a city, not everyone can move to one. Other's utopias are not my reality. I'm just trying to live and be/feel safe.
posted by kybix at 6:12 AM on December 3, 2021 [48 favorites]
Still looking for my Crone Island/Golden Girls setup if any of y'all are interested.
posted by emjaybee at 6:28 AM on December 3, 2021 [51 favorites]
posted by emjaybee at 6:28 AM on December 3, 2021 [51 favorites]
A person alone or with one child does not need a house.
*blink*
Okay. How about a one-room shack in the woods? Would that be okay with you?
Or maybe a tent? How big a tent?
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 6:37 AM on December 3, 2021 [32 favorites]
*blink*
Okay. How about a one-room shack in the woods? Would that be okay with you?
Or maybe a tent? How big a tent?
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 6:37 AM on December 3, 2021 [32 favorites]
I need a female life partner, now accepting applications
posted by Jacen at 6:38 AM on December 3, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by Jacen at 6:38 AM on December 3, 2021 [1 favorite]
It is especially harder for women. If disability is a factor you are well and truly screwed. What help there is for women who are single is a direct result of whether they have children at home. Between when the best empties and Social Security kicks in, it’s dangerous for women who are single. There are some solutions our society could enact. For example, better help for women 50 +. Get rid of marriage barriers with SSI, at least if the partner is lower income. So cut couples where both are on SSI/SSD a break, cut a break if a non SSI/SSD recipient partner is in a lower income job. More low income housing, more residence clubs. Having to live with room mates blows. I’ve done the room mate thing, in college and later and it really sucked dealing with unstable people. I do not want to live with grown kids. If it weren’t for public housing frankly I’d be sooooo done.
posted by Katjusa Roquette at 6:45 AM on December 3, 2021 [13 favorites]
posted by Katjusa Roquette at 6:45 AM on December 3, 2021 [13 favorites]
FFS, in a city like the one in which I live, owning a home is the only way to have housing stability. I don't own a home and if I lose my current apartment in which I have lived for nine years, I probably won't be able to afford one even close to as nice as this - and I make a decent salary, but it's just me. I don't need an actual house (not that it's anyone's business!!!) but it'd be great to not be worried about shelter all the time.
posted by wellred at 6:48 AM on December 3, 2021 [19 favorites]
posted by wellred at 6:48 AM on December 3, 2021 [19 favorites]
The three people they did profile all seemed to be fine, except it was hard for them to buy houses. The system is messed up, and there should be more affordable housing, but feeling like you really have to buy a house is buying into the system. A person alone or with one child does not need a house.
In addition to being wrong (a single person or a single parent might, in fact, need the privacy or stability of home ownership), this is also a misreading of the people profiled in the article. The problem for all four (not three) women profiled isn't that they are whining about houses being expensive, it is that they can't save money (for loan repayment, credit card debts, eventual home ownership, etc.) while living alone, because living alone is expensive. Two of the women were able to buy houses, both because they received significant help from family -- one by living with her parents, the other by being able to borrow money from her parents and ex. The third person, in DC, didn't mention having that kind of support and didn't seem to feel that their situation could lead to being able to save enough to have those choices. The fourth person profiled, in Vermont, appears to already own a house, but similarly feels that she can't save enough to move forward (like taking vacations or getting a haircut without concerns about debt).
posted by Dip Flash at 6:53 AM on December 3, 2021 [8 favorites]
In addition to being wrong (a single person or a single parent might, in fact, need the privacy or stability of home ownership), this is also a misreading of the people profiled in the article. The problem for all four (not three) women profiled isn't that they are whining about houses being expensive, it is that they can't save money (for loan repayment, credit card debts, eventual home ownership, etc.) while living alone, because living alone is expensive. Two of the women were able to buy houses, both because they received significant help from family -- one by living with her parents, the other by being able to borrow money from her parents and ex. The third person, in DC, didn't mention having that kind of support and didn't seem to feel that their situation could lead to being able to save enough to have those choices. The fourth person profiled, in Vermont, appears to already own a house, but similarly feels that she can't save enough to move forward (like taking vacations or getting a haircut without concerns about debt).
posted by Dip Flash at 6:53 AM on December 3, 2021 [8 favorites]
Other social animals seem to handle things much better than we do. It's embarrassing.
posted by The Half Language Plant at 7:04 AM on December 3, 2021
posted by The Half Language Plant at 7:04 AM on December 3, 2021
it is that they can't save money (for loan repayment, credit card debts, eventual home ownership, etc.) while living alone, because living alone is expensive.
Or as various people on Twitter have put it (paraphrasing)-
Bank: Hmm well, we looked at your financials and we don't think you can afford an $800/month mortgage.
Me: That's because I'm paying $1400/month in rent.
posted by soundguy99 at 7:11 AM on December 3, 2021 [56 favorites]
Or as various people on Twitter have put it (paraphrasing)-
Bank: Hmm well, we looked at your financials and we don't think you can afford an $800/month mortgage.
Me: That's because I'm paying $1400/month in rent.
posted by soundguy99 at 7:11 AM on December 3, 2021 [56 favorites]
Mod note: Several deleted. Let's pause on debating whether single people need homes, folks!
posted by travelingthyme (staff) at 7:19 AM on December 3, 2021 [4 favorites]
posted by travelingthyme (staff) at 7:19 AM on December 3, 2021 [4 favorites]
echoing FencingGal: it bears mentioning that what we need, and our expectations based on socialization, aren't necessarily aligned. And multiple things can be completely valid, simultaneously.
For many of us in urban areas it's becoming difficult to keep up with cost of living, and affordable shelter is a pressing issue in many cities. Someone took issue with a comment upstream re: hyperindividualism but in the context of peoples existing in organized groupings, we really are the product of many generations where the driving impetus was to reach a certain age, get out on one's own, and begin acquiring all the things your parents and everyone else managed to acquire. Unless you are a statistical anomaly and you grew up in a yurt, you're probably like the rest of us to whatever degree.
I think hyperindividualism applies. Of course there's the contradictory sameness of all us "individuals" behaving very similarly in our consumptive patterns, and the fact is we're all the same animal so the question remains: to what end, individuality?
posted by elkevelvet at 7:23 AM on December 3, 2021 [1 favorite]
For many of us in urban areas it's becoming difficult to keep up with cost of living, and affordable shelter is a pressing issue in many cities. Someone took issue with a comment upstream re: hyperindividualism but in the context of peoples existing in organized groupings, we really are the product of many generations where the driving impetus was to reach a certain age, get out on one's own, and begin acquiring all the things your parents and everyone else managed to acquire. Unless you are a statistical anomaly and you grew up in a yurt, you're probably like the rest of us to whatever degree.
I think hyperindividualism applies. Of course there's the contradictory sameness of all us "individuals" behaving very similarly in our consumptive patterns, and the fact is we're all the same animal so the question remains: to what end, individuality?
posted by elkevelvet at 7:23 AM on December 3, 2021 [1 favorite]
Now imagine paying for two individuals completely on your own.
There’s a running thread through this article assuming that two people = two incomes. But many of us live with disabled partners who can’t work. I’ve routinely run into the assumption that because my partner and I live together, we have two incomes and therefore life is easier for us. Quite the reverse. I’m supporting two people on $25k a year, both of whom have student loans and lots of medical bills.
So yeah, the experiences in this article resonated with me, except at like 1.5x times the pained wincing. I’ve never had savings in my life.
posted by brook horse at 7:40 AM on December 3, 2021 [42 favorites]
There’s a running thread through this article assuming that two people = two incomes. But many of us live with disabled partners who can’t work. I’ve routinely run into the assumption that because my partner and I live together, we have two incomes and therefore life is easier for us. Quite the reverse. I’m supporting two people on $25k a year, both of whom have student loans and lots of medical bills.
So yeah, the experiences in this article resonated with me, except at like 1.5x times the pained wincing. I’ve never had savings in my life.
posted by brook horse at 7:40 AM on December 3, 2021 [42 favorites]
Having worked through years of FEMA claims as well as my going through the mortgage process right now has made it very clear to me that the national FIRE economy of the united states is dependent on rigid financial enforcement of the 2.2 kid + 2 automobiles 2 income white family norm. It's like there is a poisson distribution with high kurtosis informing their financial models of what wages we are allowed to make and what we are allowed to do with those wages. 90% of us are just errors.
Having lots of cash will not affect your monthly payments (unless you can throw 100 large at the time of sale) so much as conforming to whatever lifestyle Alan Greenspan imagined to the best for the nation during the Reagan era.
any deviation from that norm will affect your interest rates. Don't be Black. Don't be older. Don't be single. Don't depend on mobility devices. Really, Really, Really-- DO NOT be a Fisherman or fisherwoman and have a house engineered to be close to the water. If you are a native american whose culture is tied to fishing, clean air or clean water, well--who is your outside investor?
And this is how united states residents are supposed to build personal wealth. it does make bitcoin look sane. the home ownership process makes playing with a loaded shotgun look like a careful life choice.
posted by eustatic at 8:11 AM on December 3, 2021 [9 favorites]
Having lots of cash will not affect your monthly payments (unless you can throw 100 large at the time of sale) so much as conforming to whatever lifestyle Alan Greenspan imagined to the best for the nation during the Reagan era.
any deviation from that norm will affect your interest rates. Don't be Black. Don't be older. Don't be single. Don't depend on mobility devices. Really, Really, Really-- DO NOT be a Fisherman or fisherwoman and have a house engineered to be close to the water. If you are a native american whose culture is tied to fishing, clean air or clean water, well--who is your outside investor?
And this is how united states residents are supposed to build personal wealth. it does make bitcoin look sane. the home ownership process makes playing with a loaded shotgun look like a careful life choice.
posted by eustatic at 8:11 AM on December 3, 2021 [9 favorites]
The only reason I'm doing as well as I am now is because I've never, NEVER lived alone. I actually have a phobia of being in a dwelling alone for longer than a couple of days, which is some significant mental baggage. But it definitely means I stayed in a couple of relationships in my twenties where it would have been better to cut-and-run way earlier than I actually did. Fear of being single, of having to live as a singleton, is a very real fear and it traps a lot of women (and I'm sure a lot of men too) in bad or even just uncomfortable situations.
Connected to the whole "men who are married are generally happier and women who are married generally are less happy" research. I honestly think it would be great if women could organize around living with one or two other women that they really love and get along with. Platonic life-partners. Hos before Bros. Make that your stable family unit. Your own miniature Crone Island. Dudes could come and go, or decide they'd join up for the long haul, but you'd always have your "sisters". /This ends my long-running fantasy world write-up.
posted by sharp pointy objects at 8:13 AM on December 3, 2021 [24 favorites]
Connected to the whole "men who are married are generally happier and women who are married generally are less happy" research. I honestly think it would be great if women could organize around living with one or two other women that they really love and get along with. Platonic life-partners. Hos before Bros. Make that your stable family unit. Your own miniature Crone Island. Dudes could come and go, or decide they'd join up for the long haul, but you'd always have your "sisters". /This ends my long-running fantasy world write-up.
posted by sharp pointy objects at 8:13 AM on December 3, 2021 [24 favorites]
I wish it was easier or more of a thing for some kind of relationship co-op that was independent of romantic/intimate relationships. I know people who are doing similar things or co-owning houses or land but it's not as legally sound or solid as binary romantic pairs.
And due to that legally difficult or otherwise established gray area, this sort of thing generally heavily relies on one person taking on the role of host or benevolent dictator.
Personally I think I would like 3 small cabins or tiny houses in the woods where I'm in some form of a partnership and we each have our own private space near each other and then maybe a shared kitchen, workshop and common space. Heck, it could be more than 2-3 cabins and more than two people. It could be some mix of Crone Island and queer/witchy forest coven.
I've been incredibly fortunate lately in that I have been living within a community that has a lot of love and care and otherwise is a real community, and we've been through a lot together over the past few years even before the pandemic. We've been there for each other through the pandemic and have had our own extended family pod kind of thing going on.
It would be nice to have someone in my life to cuddle with each others tired old bones but on balance I'm mainly glad that I'm single and otherwise not romantically involved because: Trauma. But also because: Independence.
in the end, though, a lot of these problems and issues that need to be solved have a lot less to do with relationship status but the financial and legal issues of being single in this society and culture as indicated in the article.
posted by loquacious at 8:25 AM on December 3, 2021 [15 favorites]
And due to that legally difficult or otherwise established gray area, this sort of thing generally heavily relies on one person taking on the role of host or benevolent dictator.
Personally I think I would like 3 small cabins or tiny houses in the woods where I'm in some form of a partnership and we each have our own private space near each other and then maybe a shared kitchen, workshop and common space. Heck, it could be more than 2-3 cabins and more than two people. It could be some mix of Crone Island and queer/witchy forest coven.
I've been incredibly fortunate lately in that I have been living within a community that has a lot of love and care and otherwise is a real community, and we've been through a lot together over the past few years even before the pandemic. We've been there for each other through the pandemic and have had our own extended family pod kind of thing going on.
It would be nice to have someone in my life to cuddle with each others tired old bones but on balance I'm mainly glad that I'm single and otherwise not romantically involved because: Trauma. But also because: Independence.
in the end, though, a lot of these problems and issues that need to be solved have a lot less to do with relationship status but the financial and legal issues of being single in this society and culture as indicated in the article.
posted by loquacious at 8:25 AM on December 3, 2021 [15 favorites]
This NYT essay, Who Deserves a Lifesaving Organ, also touches on the issue of how society screws single people. I don't want to discount the importance of financial punishment for being single, but it goes beyond that. A lack of social support is given as a reason that a patient may be denied a transplant.
Social-support requirements vary based on the intensity of the surgery and the length of the required rehabilitation. But in general, a patient is expected to have one to three people who can commit to helping in recovery — driving to appointments, managing medications or responding to overnight emergencies. In a health care system that does not guarantee these sorts of services for patients, the responsibility falls to family and friends. As a result, lower-income patients may be less likely to meet the requirements for robust social support because their loved ones often can’t afford to leave their jobs or they already care for other family members. This difficult reality can disqualify someone from receiving an organ, even though there is only tenuous evidence that social support — as transplant programs define it — is necessary for success after transplant.
This fall, Dr. Simpson performed a kidney transplant on a 45-year-old woman who had been declined for transplant at two other medical centers. The patient’s kidneys failed 13 years before, during pregnancy, leaving her tethered to dialysis. A single mother, she often had to choose between dialysis sessions and parental responsibilities — taking her children to their own doctor appointments and attending parent-teacher conferences. As a result of those kinds of needs, she skipped dialysis from time to time, a decision that earned her a label of “noncompliant.”
This kind of social support could theoretically work on fantasy crone island (sign me up!), but for a lot of people, it means having a spouse. And the spouse has to be able to take time off from work.
posted by FencingGal at 8:41 AM on December 3, 2021 [18 favorites]
Social-support requirements vary based on the intensity of the surgery and the length of the required rehabilitation. But in general, a patient is expected to have one to three people who can commit to helping in recovery — driving to appointments, managing medications or responding to overnight emergencies. In a health care system that does not guarantee these sorts of services for patients, the responsibility falls to family and friends. As a result, lower-income patients may be less likely to meet the requirements for robust social support because their loved ones often can’t afford to leave their jobs or they already care for other family members. This difficult reality can disqualify someone from receiving an organ, even though there is only tenuous evidence that social support — as transplant programs define it — is necessary for success after transplant.
This fall, Dr. Simpson performed a kidney transplant on a 45-year-old woman who had been declined for transplant at two other medical centers. The patient’s kidneys failed 13 years before, during pregnancy, leaving her tethered to dialysis. A single mother, she often had to choose between dialysis sessions and parental responsibilities — taking her children to their own doctor appointments and attending parent-teacher conferences. As a result of those kinds of needs, she skipped dialysis from time to time, a decision that earned her a label of “noncompliant.”
This kind of social support could theoretically work on fantasy crone island (sign me up!), but for a lot of people, it means having a spouse. And the spouse has to be able to take time off from work.
posted by FencingGal at 8:41 AM on December 3, 2021 [18 favorites]
Amen, Katjusa Roquette . I just feel this so hard.
All of this. Ive been trying to figure out how to get surgery alone. Disability, I asked a couple people at SS and disability what you do while waiting for decision, the expectation is you have a spouse or family to live with. If you don’t? Fuck off. Especially with no kids. I have, in my more desperate times recently, wondered how likely I could get pregnant at my age to get additional support. And that’s messed up.
We’re told to make ourselves happy being single and independent, and yet our social safety nets are set up around being part of a family unit. Married friends have both been judgmental about my desire to be with someone and dating in the past, and yet now a few years out from widowdom, act as though I am an old spinster than needs to be put out to pasture at 45 because I admitted to being lonely during the pandemic.
I had a horrible situation with my old landlords over the course of the pandemic, and I really believe they saw I was living alone, tried illegal eviction and harassment over eviction moratorium instead of going along with aid. I don’t think they would have done what they did to the extent they did if I wasn’t alone, especially as a woman (especially the parts where the husband would act in physically intimidating ways without overtly getting physical. Think Trump and towering, banging on the front door with a large chunk of wood but claiming it was because the doorbell doesn’t work (it did), etc…) It’s brutal out there, especially for women, and heaven help you if you struggle. Many people rush to suggest living in a woman’s shelter is like a totally normal and ok thing to do - in some regards it is, at least it should be without shame, but we need better safety nets than that.
posted by [insert clever name here] at 8:44 AM on December 3, 2021 [20 favorites]
All of this. Ive been trying to figure out how to get surgery alone. Disability, I asked a couple people at SS and disability what you do while waiting for decision, the expectation is you have a spouse or family to live with. If you don’t? Fuck off. Especially with no kids. I have, in my more desperate times recently, wondered how likely I could get pregnant at my age to get additional support. And that’s messed up.
We’re told to make ourselves happy being single and independent, and yet our social safety nets are set up around being part of a family unit. Married friends have both been judgmental about my desire to be with someone and dating in the past, and yet now a few years out from widowdom, act as though I am an old spinster than needs to be put out to pasture at 45 because I admitted to being lonely during the pandemic.
I had a horrible situation with my old landlords over the course of the pandemic, and I really believe they saw I was living alone, tried illegal eviction and harassment over eviction moratorium instead of going along with aid. I don’t think they would have done what they did to the extent they did if I wasn’t alone, especially as a woman (especially the parts where the husband would act in physically intimidating ways without overtly getting physical. Think Trump and towering, banging on the front door with a large chunk of wood but claiming it was because the doorbell doesn’t work (it did), etc…) It’s brutal out there, especially for women, and heaven help you if you struggle. Many people rush to suggest living in a woman’s shelter is like a totally normal and ok thing to do - in some regards it is, at least it should be without shame, but we need better safety nets than that.
posted by [insert clever name here] at 8:44 AM on December 3, 2021 [20 favorites]
When this came up recently, it was mainly about the same things: housing and medical. The housing problem is "natural" in the sense that it takes more resources having a single person in housing that could hold a couple. There are plenty of regulations that make it more difficult to come up with creative solutions, but it's mostly not caused by society.
I think the special medical problems of being single IS caused by society. I've had outpatient surgery before, and trying to comply with the rules is more difficult than dealing with the actual physical effects. Denying someone cancer treatment or an organ transplant based on not having a partner is really fucked up. If nearly a third of people live alone, we should have better answers to temporarily caring for people than just not caring for them with the explanation "I don't make the rules."
posted by netowl at 8:50 AM on December 3, 2021 [12 favorites]
I think the special medical problems of being single IS caused by society. I've had outpatient surgery before, and trying to comply with the rules is more difficult than dealing with the actual physical effects. Denying someone cancer treatment or an organ transplant based on not having a partner is really fucked up. If nearly a third of people live alone, we should have better answers to temporarily caring for people than just not caring for them with the explanation "I don't make the rules."
posted by netowl at 8:50 AM on December 3, 2021 [12 favorites]
A person alone or with one child does not need a house.
I hope with all my heart that you someday find yourself in an apartment living situation directly below a single person who spends an hour each day on saxophone, trumpet, violin, and treadmill, while at night their toddler shrieks and bounds from room to room
I know you won't mind
the sound of people restricted to the sphere best suited to their station in life can never be unpleasant
posted by queenofbithynia at 9:06 AM on December 3, 2021 [14 favorites]
I hope with all my heart that you someday find yourself in an apartment living situation directly below a single person who spends an hour each day on saxophone, trumpet, violin, and treadmill, while at night their toddler shrieks and bounds from room to room
I know you won't mind
the sound of people restricted to the sphere best suited to their station in life can never be unpleasant
posted by queenofbithynia at 9:06 AM on December 3, 2021 [14 favorites]
a single person who spends an hour each day on saxophone, trumpet, violin, and treadmill
"That's a hell of an act. What do you call it?"
posted by The Bellman at 9:09 AM on December 3, 2021 [36 favorites]
"That's a hell of an act. What do you call it?"
posted by The Bellman at 9:09 AM on December 3, 2021 [36 favorites]
The third person, in DC, didn't mention having that kind of support and didn't seem to feel that their situation could lead to being able to save enough to have those choices.
that third person is full of shit. as I know because I live in DC, make less than half what they do, and am several years older. I live in a decent one-bedroom (not a studio) within the city limits, within walking distance of a metro stop, and I would bet a month of my pitiful salary that they pay twice what I do in rent because some combination of neighborhood, amenities, and having their own place is more important to them than saving.
which is a fine choice to make. same one I make, in fact; I just make it on a much smaller scale. and they make so much money they have no pressing need to save; people in fields that pay that much money can generally get another job without too much bother if they lose the one they've got.
but including this person as an example of the hardships & miseries of the Single Life is just one outstanding example of why this article is a demeaning joke to those it is ostensibly about.
posted by queenofbithynia at 9:17 AM on December 3, 2021 [2 favorites]
that third person is full of shit. as I know because I live in DC, make less than half what they do, and am several years older. I live in a decent one-bedroom (not a studio) within the city limits, within walking distance of a metro stop, and I would bet a month of my pitiful salary that they pay twice what I do in rent because some combination of neighborhood, amenities, and having their own place is more important to them than saving.
which is a fine choice to make. same one I make, in fact; I just make it on a much smaller scale. and they make so much money they have no pressing need to save; people in fields that pay that much money can generally get another job without too much bother if they lose the one they've got.
but including this person as an example of the hardships & miseries of the Single Life is just one outstanding example of why this article is a demeaning joke to those it is ostensibly about.
posted by queenofbithynia at 9:17 AM on December 3, 2021 [2 favorites]
And due to that legally difficult or otherwise established gray area, this sort of thing generally heavily relies on one person taking on the role of host or benevolent dictator.
It me. I am the dictator. I have a couple of housemates (one a platonic life partner, the other a friend), but the house happened because I make ridiculous fin tech money and could go it alone. Because that’s all the outside world respects, really.
posted by notoriety public at 9:17 AM on December 3, 2021 [2 favorites]
It me. I am the dictator. I have a couple of housemates (one a platonic life partner, the other a friend), but the house happened because I make ridiculous fin tech money and could go it alone. Because that’s all the outside world respects, really.
posted by notoriety public at 9:17 AM on December 3, 2021 [2 favorites]
The three people they did profile all seemed to be fine, except it was hard for them to buy houses.
I think it depends on your timeline here.
My MIL is a boomer and lives with us in part because of a divorce in her mid-40s after my FIL declared his second bankruptcy and moved in with his mistress. She walked away with very little money and as the kids were grown and she had been the breadwinner, no spousal or child support. As this article points out, she was partnered in the earlier part of her life where she might have seriously increased her earning potential except she was putting in a lot of second shift labour, raising kids and entertaining her husband's business partners.
After the divorce, although she had a good job and did manage to put aside some retirement savings, renting instead of buying a condo/house meant that her (larger urban, increasing under moderate rent control) rent did not go towards building equity and also something she couldn't fully control. I wouldn't say she lived a lavish lifestyle. I wouldn't say she was a master of frugality either.
When she came to retirement age, even though she had managed to save 15%+ of her income every year after her divorce, the rent in the city where she was living and working would have eaten up her retirement savings at a rate she wasn't comfortable with. So she was looking at either cohousing or moving to a much lower cost of living area where she didn't know anyone and might not have the same medical, etc., supports.
Her ex, who partnered up with someone solvent, bought a house with that person and is a totally different position despite continuing poorer financial choices in other areas.
At retirement, it's a pretty serious calculation about what income your money produces plus your CPP/OAS (up here), vs. how long you think you might live or what kind of care expenses you might have. I think saving the amount of money she did, including having some of her peak investing years over the 2008 crash was relatively impressive for someone who had to functionally start over at 48. It has been really eye opening how that didn't position her for success. And yes, in hindsight she should have saved more earlier.
Anyways, she moved in with us for that and for health reasons. Which is just fine with us. But not being able to save money/build equity, and not being able to position yourself where your housing costs go down at retirement or are at least stable, is a cost.
It's definitely not the same as not being able to eat or afford the dentist, but it is a big deal.
posted by warriorqueen at 9:30 AM on December 3, 2021 [12 favorites]
I think it depends on your timeline here.
My MIL is a boomer and lives with us in part because of a divorce in her mid-40s after my FIL declared his second bankruptcy and moved in with his mistress. She walked away with very little money and as the kids were grown and she had been the breadwinner, no spousal or child support. As this article points out, she was partnered in the earlier part of her life where she might have seriously increased her earning potential except she was putting in a lot of second shift labour, raising kids and entertaining her husband's business partners.
After the divorce, although she had a good job and did manage to put aside some retirement savings, renting instead of buying a condo/house meant that her (larger urban, increasing under moderate rent control) rent did not go towards building equity and also something she couldn't fully control. I wouldn't say she lived a lavish lifestyle. I wouldn't say she was a master of frugality either.
When she came to retirement age, even though she had managed to save 15%+ of her income every year after her divorce, the rent in the city where she was living and working would have eaten up her retirement savings at a rate she wasn't comfortable with. So she was looking at either cohousing or moving to a much lower cost of living area where she didn't know anyone and might not have the same medical, etc., supports.
Her ex, who partnered up with someone solvent, bought a house with that person and is a totally different position despite continuing poorer financial choices in other areas.
At retirement, it's a pretty serious calculation about what income your money produces plus your CPP/OAS (up here), vs. how long you think you might live or what kind of care expenses you might have. I think saving the amount of money she did, including having some of her peak investing years over the 2008 crash was relatively impressive for someone who had to functionally start over at 48. It has been really eye opening how that didn't position her for success. And yes, in hindsight she should have saved more earlier.
Anyways, she moved in with us for that and for health reasons. Which is just fine with us. But not being able to save money/build equity, and not being able to position yourself where your housing costs go down at retirement or are at least stable, is a cost.
It's definitely not the same as not being able to eat or afford the dentist, but it is a big deal.
posted by warriorqueen at 9:30 AM on December 3, 2021 [12 favorites]
Now imagine paying for two individuals completely on your own.
Make a post about this and we’ll talk about it there. I see and affirm what you’re saying, but this isn’t the discussion. “I have it worse than the singles in the article about singles” is not helpful, just as my asking whether you have tried to seek debt forgiveness for the medical bills or whether your partner’s student loans can be discharged as is sometimes the case for disabled people would not be helpful.
posted by sock poppet at 9:46 AM on December 3, 2021 [10 favorites]
Make a post about this and we’ll talk about it there. I see and affirm what you’re saying, but this isn’t the discussion. “I have it worse than the singles in the article about singles” is not helpful, just as my asking whether you have tried to seek debt forgiveness for the medical bills or whether your partner’s student loans can be discharged as is sometimes the case for disabled people would not be helpful.
posted by sock poppet at 9:46 AM on December 3, 2021 [10 favorites]
I think the special medical problems of being single IS caused by society. I've had outpatient surgery before, and trying to comply with the rules is more difficult than dealing with the actual physical effects.
Is it just me, or do hospitals appear to kick people out with instructions way sooner and more often then they used to?
posted by Selena777 at 9:59 AM on December 3, 2021 [13 favorites]
Is it just me, or do hospitals appear to kick people out with instructions way sooner and more often then they used to?
posted by Selena777 at 9:59 AM on December 3, 2021 [13 favorites]
I think the special medical problems of being single IS caused by society. I've had outpatient surgery before, and trying to comply with the rules is more difficult than dealing with the actual physical effects. Denying someone cancer treatment or an organ transplant based on not having a partner is really fucked up. If nearly a third of people live alone, we should have better answers to temporarily caring for people than just not caring for them with the explanation "I don't make the rules."
After my kidney transplant (back when I was single), I spent a week in the hospital here in Canada. Shortly after discharge, I was reading a journal article about the standards of care after a kidney transplant in the US and saw that the typical stay was 3 or 4 days in hospital. I was surprised, since I had spent twice as long, and thought that my recovery must have been slower for some reason.
Further in the article, it described the condition and care needs of patients discharged at 3 days, and I realized that no, that described exactly my condition at the three day mark, and that the stuff that patients were supposed to do on their own account or through outpatient/home care services were the exact same things that had been done for me inpatient in the hospital. My recovery wasn't twice as long, it was just twice as well supported. (And while I'm sure they would have discharged me to go home by myself, they were visibly pleased I was being discharged to spend the Thanksgiving long weekend at my mother's before going home.)
posted by Superilla at 10:35 AM on December 3, 2021 [33 favorites]
After my kidney transplant (back when I was single), I spent a week in the hospital here in Canada. Shortly after discharge, I was reading a journal article about the standards of care after a kidney transplant in the US and saw that the typical stay was 3 or 4 days in hospital. I was surprised, since I had spent twice as long, and thought that my recovery must have been slower for some reason.
Further in the article, it described the condition and care needs of patients discharged at 3 days, and I realized that no, that described exactly my condition at the three day mark, and that the stuff that patients were supposed to do on their own account or through outpatient/home care services were the exact same things that had been done for me inpatient in the hospital. My recovery wasn't twice as long, it was just twice as well supported. (And while I'm sure they would have discharged me to go home by myself, they were visibly pleased I was being discharged to spend the Thanksgiving long weekend at my mother's before going home.)
posted by Superilla at 10:35 AM on December 3, 2021 [33 favorites]
As a single male in his early 50’s, single life is a terror ride from Hell. I can’t say what it’s like if you’re financially secure, but on the opposite end … it is a constant battle that you cannot lose, not once. By my age, it’s entirely possible that you have no close family to turn to. If you weren’t gregarious enough, it’s entirely possible you don’t have a lot of close friends who are willing to take up slack or help out in a crisis.
There was a lot more I was going to say, but I just can’t. It wouldn’t even make sense to a lot of you.
There may be social support mechanisms out there, but it’s possible, through a combination of social pressures and introversion, that we are trained to avoid and couldn’t afford anyway.
I see all this bickering over buying a house and can’t even process how far away that is from being a possibility.
For the single women out there, I feel for you. You may think we’re all in the same boat, but we’re not.
We’re all in individual little boats, on a dark rough sea, separated by vast oceans doing their best to erase us and there is no life jacket.
posted by JustSayNoDawg at 10:37 AM on December 3, 2021 [51 favorites]
There was a lot more I was going to say, but I just can’t. It wouldn’t even make sense to a lot of you.
There may be social support mechanisms out there, but it’s possible, through a combination of social pressures and introversion, that we are trained to avoid and couldn’t afford anyway.
I see all this bickering over buying a house and can’t even process how far away that is from being a possibility.
For the single women out there, I feel for you. You may think we’re all in the same boat, but we’re not.
We’re all in individual little boats, on a dark rough sea, separated by vast oceans doing their best to erase us and there is no life jacket.
posted by JustSayNoDawg at 10:37 AM on December 3, 2021 [51 favorites]
The thing about say, having two other single roommates that you partner up with in a co-op (or whatever) is that people move on in their lives, get into a romantic partnership and want to move in with their SO, get another job somewhere, etc. The reason why I gave up on having roommates was entirely because after 1-2 years, people rotate themselves in and out with different life changes and it was easier to go it alone forever than try to deal with the revolving door of humans.
posted by jenfullmoon at 10:46 AM on December 3, 2021 [9 favorites]
posted by jenfullmoon at 10:46 AM on December 3, 2021 [9 favorites]
There's no shortage of ways for capitalism to make peoples' lives unbearable and I do not know if it benefits us to debate whether certain categories of single people are only pretending to have a hard time while others are truly benighted. Everyone's safety nets are theoretical until they are called upon, at which time it turns out some are full of holes, others never were there to start with, and some appear where one never expected.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 11:07 AM on December 3, 2021 [14 favorites]
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 11:07 AM on December 3, 2021 [14 favorites]
I've been single my entire life, not entirely by choice. But que sera, sera. On the up side, I've financially secure now because I've never had a family to raise. On the down side, I have to put more faith and trust in others to carry out my advance medical directives, funeral arrangements* and execute my will. I have to pay people to do that and just hope that they are professional enough to do their jobs properly.** Difficulty in trusting others is one reason I live by myself, so it's a pain to encounter circumstances where trust is the only option.
----
*Contracted and paid for by me, in advance, naturally.
**One local funeral organization has a history of charging customers for services that they subsequently don't provide (ie, pay for embalming and a nice casket, get tossed raw into a cheap box).
posted by SPrintF at 11:08 AM on December 3, 2021 [7 favorites]
----
*Contracted and paid for by me, in advance, naturally.
**One local funeral organization has a history of charging customers for services that they subsequently don't provide (ie, pay for embalming and a nice casket, get tossed raw into a cheap box).
posted by SPrintF at 11:08 AM on December 3, 2021 [7 favorites]
What a curious thing to say, polymodus. Most single people, including myself, are not hermits nor loners. We're your neighbors and co-workers and friends. Some of us are single by choice; some are waiting and dating; some got out of abusive relationships and decided it's better to be single than hurt.
But we participate in society as much (and sometimes more than!) married people or parents. We also pay a higher proportion of our salaries in income tax and property tax. And we do all this for a society that renders us either invisible or pitiable.
So in other words, there's nothing curious about pointing out that the neoliberal legacy of "There is no society" Thatcherism and Reaganism had a direct logical effect on the atomization of society with the exploitive end result being an unconscious ideology of hyperindividualism and hyperconsumerism, as opposed to a morally justifiable culture of liberal individualism, etc. Living alone (or being married) is not what make one a hyperindividualist; excessive individualism is a structural thing that capitalism does to harm both individuals and families. That's the ultimate point of these articles anyways.
posted by polymodus at 11:32 AM on December 3, 2021 [3 favorites]
But we participate in society as much (and sometimes more than!) married people or parents. We also pay a higher proportion of our salaries in income tax and property tax. And we do all this for a society that renders us either invisible or pitiable.
So in other words, there's nothing curious about pointing out that the neoliberal legacy of "There is no society" Thatcherism and Reaganism had a direct logical effect on the atomization of society with the exploitive end result being an unconscious ideology of hyperindividualism and hyperconsumerism, as opposed to a morally justifiable culture of liberal individualism, etc. Living alone (or being married) is not what make one a hyperindividualist; excessive individualism is a structural thing that capitalism does to harm both individuals and families. That's the ultimate point of these articles anyways.
posted by polymodus at 11:32 AM on December 3, 2021 [3 favorites]
So in other words, there's nothing curious about pointing out that the neoliberal legacy of "There is no society" Thatcherism and Reaganism had a direct logical effect on the atomization of society with the exploitive end result being an unconscious ideology of hyperindividualism and hyperconsumerism, as opposed to a morally justifiable culture of liberal individualism, etc.
I feel very stupid that I cannot understand this sentence.
posted by JanetLand at 11:38 AM on December 3, 2021 [6 favorites]
I feel very stupid that I cannot understand this sentence.
posted by JanetLand at 11:38 AM on December 3, 2021 [6 favorites]
I feel very stupid that I cannot understand this sentence.
I didn't get it either. Polymodus, can you re-state what you said but pretend we're about twelve?
I think the special medical problems of being single IS caused by society. I've had outpatient surgery before, and trying to comply with the rules is more difficult than dealing with the actual physical effects.
If I didn't have a roommate who was unemployed on the date of my knee surgery a year ago, I would have been screwed. He was the only person who was available to come with me to the hospital and accompany me home - and we still needed to try to scare up a second person to help me get me and my cast up 4 flights of stairs. And for a good month or so after that he also had to come to all the appointments with me because getting me up and down the stairs on crutches was a two-person operation.
If he hadn't been around then I don't know how I would have done any of that.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 11:47 AM on December 3, 2021 [2 favorites]
I didn't get it either. Polymodus, can you re-state what you said but pretend we're about twelve?
I think the special medical problems of being single IS caused by society. I've had outpatient surgery before, and trying to comply with the rules is more difficult than dealing with the actual physical effects.
If I didn't have a roommate who was unemployed on the date of my knee surgery a year ago, I would have been screwed. He was the only person who was available to come with me to the hospital and accompany me home - and we still needed to try to scare up a second person to help me get me and my cast up 4 flights of stairs. And for a good month or so after that he also had to come to all the appointments with me because getting me up and down the stairs on crutches was a two-person operation.
If he hadn't been around then I don't know how I would have done any of that.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 11:47 AM on December 3, 2021 [2 favorites]
Don't feel stupid JanetLand, I don't get it either. It's got many words "Thatcherism" and "liberal individualism" that make me feel like I'd understand it after perhaps a rather intense undergrad history/theology/economics class.
posted by sharp pointy objects at 11:48 AM on December 3, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by sharp pointy objects at 11:48 AM on December 3, 2021 [1 favorite]
excessive individualism is a structural thing that capitalism does to harm both individuals and families. That's the ultimate point of these articles anyways.
The point of this article is specifically how expensive it is to be a single person. And a person can be single for many, many reasons, most of which have nothing to do with "excessive individualism."
posted by FencingGal at 11:57 AM on December 3, 2021 [17 favorites]
The point of this article is specifically how expensive it is to be a single person. And a person can be single for many, many reasons, most of which have nothing to do with "excessive individualism."
posted by FencingGal at 11:57 AM on December 3, 2021 [17 favorites]
“I have it worse than the singles in the article about singles”
They profiled a woman with a partner of 10 years, and they profiled a woman living with her dependent child. Single parents and caregivers (me) are included in the first few lines. The article is about living on a single income, not about being unpartnered or living alone with no dependents. I wouldn’t have commented if this article were about anything other than the financials of living on a single income but it is. I’m not trying to say “I have it harder than all of you!” I’m highlighting the fact that the assumption that partnered living means two incomes (when the entire article rests on the impact of living, partnered or not, alone or not, with a single income) is incorrect, and that for many people the financial privilege of being partnered doesn’t exist and is in fact the opposite.
But I admit I phrased it poorly and I’m sorry for that.
posted by brook horse at 12:08 PM on December 3, 2021 [12 favorites]
They profiled a woman with a partner of 10 years, and they profiled a woman living with her dependent child. Single parents and caregivers (me) are included in the first few lines. The article is about living on a single income, not about being unpartnered or living alone with no dependents. I wouldn’t have commented if this article were about anything other than the financials of living on a single income but it is. I’m not trying to say “I have it harder than all of you!” I’m highlighting the fact that the assumption that partnered living means two incomes (when the entire article rests on the impact of living, partnered or not, alone or not, with a single income) is incorrect, and that for many people the financial privilege of being partnered doesn’t exist and is in fact the opposite.
But I admit I phrased it poorly and I’m sorry for that.
posted by brook horse at 12:08 PM on December 3, 2021 [12 favorites]
I can also see that the discussion here has been more about single people’s experiences so I’ll bow out, I had only read the article when I commented but this has clearly become a space for that experience and I can respect that.
posted by brook horse at 12:13 PM on December 3, 2021 [4 favorites]
posted by brook horse at 12:13 PM on December 3, 2021 [4 favorites]
^ well, I appreciate your comments and sometimes the tone in some MeFi threads can get a little caustic, imo
Thanks (from me, and clearly others)
posted by elkevelvet at 1:16 PM on December 3, 2021 [3 favorites]
Thanks (from me, and clearly others)
posted by elkevelvet at 1:16 PM on December 3, 2021 [3 favorites]
I don't think being single is the hyperindividualism that polymodus is referring to. It is a societal issue where instead of building, maintaining, and investing in widespread solutions to social issues governments instead dismantle them and let the "savings" trickle back to taxpayers who are then expected to deal with the issues themselves. In Canada this is the type of thinking where a political party will offer voters an inadequate $200/month tax credit for parents to pay for daycare instead of creating affordable daycare capacity itself.
The broader point is that Thatcherism/Reaganism/Neoliberalism has made life harder for almost everyone because instead of there being supports built into society we all have to make do the best we can according to our resources and conversely that if we invested in society again then life would be easier for everyone, maybe particularly single people.
I thought that was pretty clearly what the initial comment was getting at but maybe I just occupy similar headspaces to polymodus.
It is a valid point but to me kind of feels like bringing class-based solutions into threads about racism. Like, while it would be great to have solutions for everyone, we also need additional solutions for this specific group of people to deal with the additional obstacles they are facing.
posted by any portmanteau in a storm at 1:30 PM on December 3, 2021 [6 favorites]
The broader point is that Thatcherism/Reaganism/Neoliberalism has made life harder for almost everyone because instead of there being supports built into society we all have to make do the best we can according to our resources and conversely that if we invested in society again then life would be easier for everyone, maybe particularly single people.
I thought that was pretty clearly what the initial comment was getting at but maybe I just occupy similar headspaces to polymodus.
It is a valid point but to me kind of feels like bringing class-based solutions into threads about racism. Like, while it would be great to have solutions for everyone, we also need additional solutions for this specific group of people to deal with the additional obstacles they are facing.
posted by any portmanteau in a storm at 1:30 PM on December 3, 2021 [6 favorites]
To me, it just reads like polymodus doing their polymodus thing, which in this case is telling everyone in this thread what they already know.
Obviously, there are structural forces that make living alone a) harder than in other societies and b) valued differently than other societies. This is an article about exactly those forces! And, rather more importantly, how that's actually impacting people. Just saying "It's because of hyperindividualism" is, I'd contend, not actually very informative.
posted by sagc at 1:52 PM on December 3, 2021 [2 favorites]
Obviously, there are structural forces that make living alone a) harder than in other societies and b) valued differently than other societies. This is an article about exactly those forces! And, rather more importantly, how that's actually impacting people. Just saying "It's because of hyperindividualism" is, I'd contend, not actually very informative.
posted by sagc at 1:52 PM on December 3, 2021 [2 favorites]
Or, less grouchily, a comment I made about a month ago, when we did this exact same thread.
posted by sagc at 1:53 PM on December 3, 2021 [2 favorites]
posted by sagc at 1:53 PM on December 3, 2021 [2 favorites]
There's also the issue that a lot of labour gets dumped on us in the workplace. I've had many a job where I've regularly been on the receiving end of "oh, indemandgirl, you don't have a partner or kids, you won't mind working late/being on call this weekend/doing the trip to see a client in Inverness, will you?".
The big pandemic layoff at my previous job seemed to target those in nontraditional family structures: the guy going through divorce, the young single mother, the single woman approaching middle age, etc. Not saying you're wrong, just that it's hard to square with my experience of single people having targets on their backs for whatever reason. Maybe there was a tacit assumption that single people need the support of a partner to be effective at work.
posted by ziggly at 2:32 PM on December 3, 2021
The big pandemic layoff at my previous job seemed to target those in nontraditional family structures: the guy going through divorce, the young single mother, the single woman approaching middle age, etc. Not saying you're wrong, just that it's hard to square with my experience of single people having targets on their backs for whatever reason. Maybe there was a tacit assumption that single people need the support of a partner to be effective at work.
posted by ziggly at 2:32 PM on December 3, 2021
I think those are different decisions, though - single people are assumed not to be supporting anyone, which means that a) they don't get the sympathy of "but think of their kids" when layoffs come, and that b) they're assumed not to have any obligations outside work.
posted by sagc at 2:44 PM on December 3, 2021 [5 favorites]
posted by sagc at 2:44 PM on December 3, 2021 [5 favorites]
It was nice to see someone ace included.
posted by rewil at 3:06 PM on December 3, 2021 [9 favorites]
posted by rewil at 3:06 PM on December 3, 2021 [9 favorites]
I just turned 50; my marriage is ending. I live alone (with my dogs) on a house I own. I have no close family in North America; in fact my only living blood relative is my sister in Australia. I am so terrified of aging alone that I am planning to move to Perth as soon as travel restrictions and logistics permit. My grim family situation qualifies me for a "last living relative" visa.
I'm in good health for now, and I have a trade that is in demand everywhere. Things could definitely be worse. But yes, living single is terrifying in ways partnered people don't really get.
posted by workerant at 3:08 PM on December 3, 2021 [13 favorites]
I'm in good health for now, and I have a trade that is in demand everywhere. Things could definitely be worse. But yes, living single is terrifying in ways partnered people don't really get.
posted by workerant at 3:08 PM on December 3, 2021 [13 favorites]
I'm a relatively privileged long-term single woman in the US so I have a kind of private safety net most don't from the combination of professional parents that paid for state college, a tech sector salary and living below my means. I'm still pissed that I have to turn to for-profit market investment as my primary means of financial security which means I am more risk exposed for retirement than a married couple of similar privilege in a couple important ways the article misses, namely:
1) chances are in a couple you don't have the exact same retirement dates despite sharing the same pool of retirement funds which means you actually significantly reduce your collective risk of early drawdown of the entire portfolio making it run out before you both die. sometimes a matter of a few months in retirement is the difference in having money left over at 95 or not if you are unlucky enough to retire right into a market crash.
2) its easier to self-insure against the risk of huge end of life healthcare expenses in the US since it is statistically unlikely both people in a hetero couple need it, at least not at the same time in the same amount. the long term care insurance market is totally broken and the government is not providing any alternative since Medicare doesn't cover long term facility care for the most part. that means your best bet is basically coming up with a private risk pool, and a pool of 2 is better than 1
so basically our impulse to privatize absolutely everything in the US leaves singles more exposed than couples and the answer is just stop privatizing all the things
posted by slow graffiti at 3:11 PM on December 3, 2021 [20 favorites]
1) chances are in a couple you don't have the exact same retirement dates despite sharing the same pool of retirement funds which means you actually significantly reduce your collective risk of early drawdown of the entire portfolio making it run out before you both die. sometimes a matter of a few months in retirement is the difference in having money left over at 95 or not if you are unlucky enough to retire right into a market crash.
2) its easier to self-insure against the risk of huge end of life healthcare expenses in the US since it is statistically unlikely both people in a hetero couple need it, at least not at the same time in the same amount. the long term care insurance market is totally broken and the government is not providing any alternative since Medicare doesn't cover long term facility care for the most part. that means your best bet is basically coming up with a private risk pool, and a pool of 2 is better than 1
so basically our impulse to privatize absolutely everything in the US leaves singles more exposed than couples and the answer is just stop privatizing all the things
posted by slow graffiti at 3:11 PM on December 3, 2021 [20 favorites]
I'll be fifty next year. I divorced in early 2019, no children.
I'll be okay, financially, as long as I don't become unable to work and don't have any serious health crises. That's why COVID scares the absolute crap out of me (yes, I am vaxxed and boosted). It's not death; everybody dies, I can die, I know who'd take care of my cats. It's long COVID, which would absolutely wreck my life, and I have no close family or close friends as recourse.
Chances that a fat fifty-year-old ace woman who wasn't particularly attractive thirty years ago and certainly isn't now finds an acceptable long-term partnership? Nil. I'd like to find a queerplatonic partner, but that doesn't seem terribly likely either.
Yes, it's scary. Yes, even owning a small house (well, 3/4 of it... seven years to go on the other 25%) figuring out the money is not straightforward... but figuring out the logistics is, as several upthread have noted, much harder than the money.
posted by humbug at 4:12 PM on December 3, 2021 [8 favorites]
I'll be okay, financially, as long as I don't become unable to work and don't have any serious health crises. That's why COVID scares the absolute crap out of me (yes, I am vaxxed and boosted). It's not death; everybody dies, I can die, I know who'd take care of my cats. It's long COVID, which would absolutely wreck my life, and I have no close family or close friends as recourse.
Chances that a fat fifty-year-old ace woman who wasn't particularly attractive thirty years ago and certainly isn't now finds an acceptable long-term partnership? Nil. I'd like to find a queerplatonic partner, but that doesn't seem terribly likely either.
Yes, it's scary. Yes, even owning a small house (well, 3/4 of it... seven years to go on the other 25%) figuring out the money is not straightforward... but figuring out the logistics is, as several upthread have noted, much harder than the money.
posted by humbug at 4:12 PM on December 3, 2021 [8 favorites]
I hope Metafilter sticks around long enough for those of us who are looking for a Golden Girls type situation in 20 or so years.
posted by bleep at 5:45 PM on December 3, 2021 [12 favorites]
posted by bleep at 5:45 PM on December 3, 2021 [12 favorites]
This article and the previous one re: difficulties living as a single person in the US are what I struggle to convey to my friends in the private sector. I have been underutilized, underpaid, under-appreciated, and bored out of my skull for much of my professional career (hopefully this will change soon as I have an interview with a different public service agency where the role would be more challenging than what I’m doing at the moment and provide greater autonomy). In fact, I get poked at for my foul attitude. My friends are NOT wrong; I have had a foul attitude about work for a long time due to myriad factors. BUT I AM STEADILY WORKING TOWARDS A PENSION. At the end of my 30 years, at which I’ll be 54, I will retire with an annual pension of 56% of my highest grossing 3 years. My house (I bought when the bubble burst at 28, because as an indebted divorceé at 25 sitting on beach chairs in my apartment because the furniture was GONE, I said IMMA BUY A HOUSE) will be paid off not much after that; vehicle paid off, master’s paid off, stabilized electrical costs with solar…coupled with some other investments via public service options, my plan is to live comfortably. Also, I’m not planning on retiring-retiring until 70. I plan on having a second career or at least a part-time job or two when I finish my 30 with local govt. This is not only for pure financial reasons, I also know I’d be bored. The Misanthropic Extrovert HAS to be around people.
Now, my definition of comfortable could be a little different; I want to be able to not worry about going to the grocery store, or turning up the heat to 70 degrees once in awhile, or taking my little butt down to Myrtle Beach for a few days twice a year (it’s like an hour away, so this is pretty feasible). I don’t know the last time I went on an actual “vacation;” I think it was a 3 day trip to OBX with an ex in 2009. I have a car payment, but I drove my last car for 12 years and it was pretty much done for anything other than around town. I cook almost every meal and do most of my own maintenance around the house, I have a Costco membership that pays for itself and gives me $$$ back. I’m picky about credit cards. I try to participate in hobbies that aren’t excessively expensive; going to the gym, surfing, tennis. I am super super super fortunate to be able-bodied and physically healthy.
I wasn’t lucky enough to have familial help; at 17 I had school loans and my parents were like “out out damn spot” so out I went. It’s been tough, and I have conversations with my therapist about my cynicism often. I didn’t grow up in the best household, but it was drilled into my head to be self-sufficient from a young age, and I’m sure my demand for independence and my personality probably lent itself to that sort of child-rearing. I have reconciled that I am very fortunate in some ways, and I got the short straw in some others, and that is probably true for many of us.
I stopped roommates after two of my friends tore up shit in my personal house and I kicked them both out and I was like idk what I gotta do but I’m not freakin having roommates again. I’m in a housing market where if something happened to my house, I would have to relocate because I cannot rent an apartment here on $14 an hour.
My partner thing is hell-bent on never being financially intertwined with another person again. That’s understandable, and selfishly, I don’t want him fucking up my credit, so we both have reasons for not cohabiting. His job is also an hour away from my house and that’s that.
TL;DR: I am terrified to make the jump to the private sector due to the relative stability of my local government job, much to the chagrin of my friends who are working in the private sector. Those friends are partnered with children and relatively supportive in-laws.
posted by sara is disenchanted at 5:48 PM on December 3, 2021 [4 favorites]
Now, my definition of comfortable could be a little different; I want to be able to not worry about going to the grocery store, or turning up the heat to 70 degrees once in awhile, or taking my little butt down to Myrtle Beach for a few days twice a year (it’s like an hour away, so this is pretty feasible). I don’t know the last time I went on an actual “vacation;” I think it was a 3 day trip to OBX with an ex in 2009. I have a car payment, but I drove my last car for 12 years and it was pretty much done for anything other than around town. I cook almost every meal and do most of my own maintenance around the house, I have a Costco membership that pays for itself and gives me $$$ back. I’m picky about credit cards. I try to participate in hobbies that aren’t excessively expensive; going to the gym, surfing, tennis. I am super super super fortunate to be able-bodied and physically healthy.
I wasn’t lucky enough to have familial help; at 17 I had school loans and my parents were like “out out damn spot” so out I went. It’s been tough, and I have conversations with my therapist about my cynicism often. I didn’t grow up in the best household, but it was drilled into my head to be self-sufficient from a young age, and I’m sure my demand for independence and my personality probably lent itself to that sort of child-rearing. I have reconciled that I am very fortunate in some ways, and I got the short straw in some others, and that is probably true for many of us.
I stopped roommates after two of my friends tore up shit in my personal house and I kicked them both out and I was like idk what I gotta do but I’m not freakin having roommates again. I’m in a housing market where if something happened to my house, I would have to relocate because I cannot rent an apartment here on $14 an hour.
My partner thing is hell-bent on never being financially intertwined with another person again. That’s understandable, and selfishly, I don’t want him fucking up my credit, so we both have reasons for not cohabiting. His job is also an hour away from my house and that’s that.
TL;DR: I am terrified to make the jump to the private sector due to the relative stability of my local government job, much to the chagrin of my friends who are working in the private sector. Those friends are partnered with children and relatively supportive in-laws.
posted by sara is disenchanted at 5:48 PM on December 3, 2021 [4 favorites]
Honestly, one of the biggest reasons I am no longer working in theater is because I'm single. Here's why:
After ten years of trying to do both a day job and a stage management career, I was exhausted. One of them had to go. But I didn't get it - I knew several other women who were stage managers who didn't seem as exhausted as I was all the time, and they were able to juggle things. How could they do it when I couldn't?
And then I realized - that's because they were all either married or partnered, and they simply dropped out of their day jobs when they had a gig. I was single and didn't have anyone to pick up the slack when I did that.
And so "because I was single" was one of the reasons I had to give up my theater career.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 5:56 PM on December 3, 2021 [19 favorites]
After ten years of trying to do both a day job and a stage management career, I was exhausted. One of them had to go. But I didn't get it - I knew several other women who were stage managers who didn't seem as exhausted as I was all the time, and they were able to juggle things. How could they do it when I couldn't?
And then I realized - that's because they were all either married or partnered, and they simply dropped out of their day jobs when they had a gig. I was single and didn't have anyone to pick up the slack when I did that.
And so "because I was single" was one of the reasons I had to give up my theater career.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 5:56 PM on December 3, 2021 [19 favorites]
I hope Metafilter sticks around long enough for those of us who are looking for a Golden Girls type situation in 20 or so years.
Shoot, I think a whole lot of us are a lot closer to retirement age (AS IF HAHAHA) than buying our first legal beer.
posted by loquacious at 6:21 PM on December 3, 2021 [10 favorites]
Shoot, I think a whole lot of us are a lot closer to retirement age (AS IF HAHAHA) than buying our first legal beer.
posted by loquacious at 6:21 PM on December 3, 2021 [10 favorites]
Honestly, one of the biggest reasons I am no longer working in theater is because I'm single.
I'm so sorry to hear this. It made me sad and angry.
I think being single was a big part of not being able to finish my PhD in a competitive program. I was also parenting two young children, so I think normal people would realize that was just hard, but not being able to finish has had a huge impact on me. I felt utterly destroyed by my failure for literally decades — it felt like an indictment of me as a human being — and even though it's been more than 20 years, it's still hard. I remember when we did our qualifying exams. One was a 72-hour take-home, and a man in the department who had a child just stayed in the office all weekend while his wife took care of the child. A neighbor kindly agreed to babysit for most of a day for me, but her son had a medical emergency and she had to take him to the hospital, so that didn't work out.
I know there's been a lot written about all the people who have not been able to reach their potential in art or whatever their dreams are because of societal circumstances beyond their control. Now we can add being single to that list.
posted by FencingGal at 7:53 AM on December 4, 2021 [14 favorites]
I'm so sorry to hear this. It made me sad and angry.
I think being single was a big part of not being able to finish my PhD in a competitive program. I was also parenting two young children, so I think normal people would realize that was just hard, but not being able to finish has had a huge impact on me. I felt utterly destroyed by my failure for literally decades — it felt like an indictment of me as a human being — and even though it's been more than 20 years, it's still hard. I remember when we did our qualifying exams. One was a 72-hour take-home, and a man in the department who had a child just stayed in the office all weekend while his wife took care of the child. A neighbor kindly agreed to babysit for most of a day for me, but her son had a medical emergency and she had to take him to the hospital, so that didn't work out.
I know there's been a lot written about all the people who have not been able to reach their potential in art or whatever their dreams are because of societal circumstances beyond their control. Now we can add being single to that list.
posted by FencingGal at 7:53 AM on December 4, 2021 [14 favorites]
Now imagine paying for all those things completely on your own.
Imagine?
I offered in 2017 to start a Crone Island but I guess my mom is going to sell the property in the not-too-distant future. (At age 51 so many things depend on when someone is going to die. It's a weird shift in perspective.)
Mostly I just want someone else to take out the trash and do the driving sometimes.
posted by bendy at 9:20 PM on December 5, 2021 [5 favorites]
Imagine?
I offered in 2017 to start a Crone Island but I guess my mom is going to sell the property in the not-too-distant future. (At age 51 so many things depend on when someone is going to die. It's a weird shift in perspective.)
Mostly I just want someone else to take out the trash and do the driving sometimes.
posted by bendy at 9:20 PM on December 5, 2021 [5 favorites]
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posted by jenfullmoon at 10:27 PM on December 2, 2021 [41 favorites]