These crimes are preventable
December 6, 2021 2:05 AM Subscribe
Warning signs present in 1 in 3 homicides of intimate partners, CBC investigation finds. CW: Descriptions of graphic violence.
Support is available for anyone affected by intimate partner violence. You can access support services and local resources in Canada by visiting this website. If your situation is urgent, please contact emergency services in your area.
Support is available for anyone affected by intimate partner violence. You can access support services and local resources in Canada by visiting this website. If your situation is urgent, please contact emergency services in your area.
Included in an NPR article ("Abusive relationships are disturbingly common. Here's how to support a loved one"): in the US, National Domestic Violence Hotline and domesticshelters.org.
In England, a list of resources here: Domestic violence and abuse - getting help (with links to rest of GB).
In Australia, 1800RESPECT is the national sexual assault, domestic and family violence counselling service.
In New Zealand, New Zealand Family Violence Clearinghouse and their help page, Feeling unsafe?
A collection of hotlines for various EU countries here.
(And if anyone has good links for other countries, please add!)
posted by taz at 2:44 AM on December 6, 2021 [8 favorites]
In England, a list of resources here: Domestic violence and abuse - getting help (with links to rest of GB).
In Australia, 1800RESPECT is the national sexual assault, domestic and family violence counselling service.
In New Zealand, New Zealand Family Violence Clearinghouse and their help page, Feeling unsafe?
A collection of hotlines for various EU countries here.
(And if anyone has good links for other countries, please add!)
posted by taz at 2:44 AM on December 6, 2021 [8 favorites]
By the way, I want to note that many of these links contain a warning that website activity may be monitored (ie, if you are at risk from a partner or family member, they may be keeping tabs on what sites you visit, so be sure to use private browsing mode, or use an inaccessible device, delete history, etc.) For example, the Australia hot line page has warning "We recommend using this website in private browsing mode. Our website has cookies enabled for analytics and reporting purposes, and to improve the quality of our site. If you need to close the site quickly, click the red EXIT button in the top right-hand corner. If you are on a laptop or smart phone, press or swipe the home button on your device."
posted by taz at 3:08 AM on December 6, 2021 [13 favorites]
posted by taz at 3:08 AM on December 6, 2021 [13 favorites]
As always, it's good to have things that everyone knows confirmed by research.
posted by The Underpants Monster at 4:00 AM on December 6, 2021 [2 favorites]
posted by The Underpants Monster at 4:00 AM on December 6, 2021 [2 favorites]
This is a really important topic, but the data visualization and analysis, and lack of reference to any related earlier studies (of which there are a number, albeit the stats I’ve seen are out of the US rather than Canada), is a bit frustrating.
posted by eviemath at 4:16 AM on December 6, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by eviemath at 4:16 AM on December 6, 2021 [1 favorite]
As always, it's good to have things that everyone knows confirmed by research.
I honestly can't tell if you're disparaging or praising the research.
If it's the former: can we please not? Yes, it actually is important to do research on things we already "know". Because until the research is done, we don't actually know it.
Research can prove our intuitive assumptions (what you call "knowing") wrong, or incomplete - or can at least provide a degree of nuance and clarity that aren't accessible via intuition alone. That's the entire point of empirical research.
Research can also provide the basis for concrete action to actually address the problem in question. That, again, is kind of the point.
posted by escape from the potato planet at 4:26 AM on December 6, 2021 [8 favorites]
I honestly can't tell if you're disparaging or praising the research.
If it's the former: can we please not? Yes, it actually is important to do research on things we already "know". Because until the research is done, we don't actually know it.
Research can prove our intuitive assumptions (what you call "knowing") wrong, or incomplete - or can at least provide a degree of nuance and clarity that aren't accessible via intuition alone. That's the entire point of empirical research.
Research can also provide the basis for concrete action to actually address the problem in question. That, again, is kind of the point.
posted by escape from the potato planet at 4:26 AM on December 6, 2021 [8 favorites]
Abusive relationships are disturbingly common. Here's how to support a loved one"
Alex404, thanks for posting this. I am not going to read any of the links because I lived it, back in the 80s, when the awareness and resources just didn’t exist.
But I did want to add my voice to this conversation — when I did find the courage to tell my family via email, there was crickets. No one responded - I am sure for complicated reasons - but that lack of response embedded a life-long fear that no help was coming - ever.
So please - if someone tells you things are bad, please offer to help them find resources. I understand that lots of us do not have the bandwidth or emotional strength to help. I understand that sometimes, from the outside, it can be confusing to believe that such things are happening. But if someone tells you that things are bad, something is very wrong in the relationship, and getting a professional involved to help and (if nothing else) get eyes on the situation is critical. Find three relevant phone numbers, write them on a piece of paper, and slip it to the person. I guarantee you that your act of agency will go a long way toward long-term healing; to giving that person one touch stone of believing that when things are bad someone will see and help.
For all of us who have lived through this: I am glad you are here, that you made it - or are making it - through. Don’t let the bastards win, ducklings.
posted by Silvery Fish at 4:35 AM on December 6, 2021 [34 favorites]
Alex404, thanks for posting this. I am not going to read any of the links because I lived it, back in the 80s, when the awareness and resources just didn’t exist.
But I did want to add my voice to this conversation — when I did find the courage to tell my family via email, there was crickets. No one responded - I am sure for complicated reasons - but that lack of response embedded a life-long fear that no help was coming - ever.
So please - if someone tells you things are bad, please offer to help them find resources. I understand that lots of us do not have the bandwidth or emotional strength to help. I understand that sometimes, from the outside, it can be confusing to believe that such things are happening. But if someone tells you that things are bad, something is very wrong in the relationship, and getting a professional involved to help and (if nothing else) get eyes on the situation is critical. Find three relevant phone numbers, write them on a piece of paper, and slip it to the person. I guarantee you that your act of agency will go a long way toward long-term healing; to giving that person one touch stone of believing that when things are bad someone will see and help.
For all of us who have lived through this: I am glad you are here, that you made it - or are making it - through. Don’t let the bastards win, ducklings.
posted by Silvery Fish at 4:35 AM on December 6, 2021 [34 favorites]
As always, it's good to have things that everyone knows confirmed by research.
I honestly can't tell if you're disparaging or praising the research.
100% the latter. Sorry that wasn't clear.
posted by The Underpants Monster at 4:44 AM on December 6, 2021 [3 favorites]
I honestly can't tell if you're disparaging or praising the research.
100% the latter. Sorry that wasn't clear.
posted by The Underpants Monster at 4:44 AM on December 6, 2021 [3 favorites]
Gotcha! My apologies!
posted by escape from the potato planet at 5:04 AM on December 6, 2021 [2 favorites]
posted by escape from the potato planet at 5:04 AM on December 6, 2021 [2 favorites]
"Two out of three homicides of domestic partners occurred with no warning signs" is a pretty surprising piece of data, to me at least.
posted by ook at 5:49 AM on December 6, 2021 [22 favorites]
posted by ook at 5:49 AM on December 6, 2021 [22 favorites]
Domestic violence is the #1 predictor of mass murder such as active shooter incidents, so if society starts taking the threat of violence against women seriously, we get a significant decrease in mass violence as a two-fer (Not that we should need the extra incentive)
posted by Skwirl at 6:20 AM on December 6, 2021 [34 favorites]
posted by Skwirl at 6:20 AM on December 6, 2021 [34 favorites]
Biggest warning sign they missed: Your partner is a cop.
posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock at 7:02 AM on December 6, 2021 [53 favorites]
posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock at 7:02 AM on December 6, 2021 [53 favorites]
Domestic violence is the #1 predictor of mass murder such as active shooter incidents, so if society starts taking the threat of violence against women seriously, we get a significant decrease in mass violence as a two-fer
I'm not sure this is as big an argument in Canada and other countries with low mass shooting rates. The link holds with the Nova Scotia shootings and Marc Lepine's (Concordia) family had a history of domestic violence but Alek Minassian (Toronto van attack) was linked to incel communities, Faisal Hussain (Danforth shootings) was mentally ill and possibly inspired by incel philosophy, Alexandre Bissonnette (Quebec City mosque shooting) was white nationalist and Nathaniel Veltman (accused, London truck attack) also seems to have been motivated by racial hatred. The Danzig street shooting was clearly gang-related.
In Canada I think you would find a stronger link between hate communities and mass events than domestic violence.
In the article it was also clear to see colonialism and racism in the statistics around Indigenous communities as well as, I noticed, a racial disparity in how people were charged.
posted by warriorqueen at 7:26 AM on December 6, 2021 [5 favorites]
I'm not sure this is as big an argument in Canada and other countries with low mass shooting rates. The link holds with the Nova Scotia shootings and Marc Lepine's (Concordia) family had a history of domestic violence but Alek Minassian (Toronto van attack) was linked to incel communities, Faisal Hussain (Danforth shootings) was mentally ill and possibly inspired by incel philosophy, Alexandre Bissonnette (Quebec City mosque shooting) was white nationalist and Nathaniel Veltman (accused, London truck attack) also seems to have been motivated by racial hatred. The Danzig street shooting was clearly gang-related.
In Canada I think you would find a stronger link between hate communities and mass events than domestic violence.
In the article it was also clear to see colonialism and racism in the statistics around Indigenous communities as well as, I noticed, a racial disparity in how people were charged.
posted by warriorqueen at 7:26 AM on December 6, 2021 [5 favorites]
Domestic violence will not decrease in America until a single persons income is enough to live on alone.
Every abused woman I've known has an abusive live-in partner that they wouldn't be able to afford rent without that second income.
When you lack the financial resources to escape your abuse, you will just suffer it.
When we talk about the housing crisis and stagnating wages, we're actually talking about the roots of plenty of issues in this country. Inability to escape abuse being just one of many.
posted by deadaluspark at 7:42 AM on December 6, 2021 [54 favorites]
Every abused woman I've known has an abusive live-in partner that they wouldn't be able to afford rent without that second income.
When you lack the financial resources to escape your abuse, you will just suffer it.
When we talk about the housing crisis and stagnating wages, we're actually talking about the roots of plenty of issues in this country. Inability to escape abuse being just one of many.
posted by deadaluspark at 7:42 AM on December 6, 2021 [54 favorites]
By the way, I want to note that many of these links contain a warning that website activity may be monitored (ie, if you are at risk from a partner or family member, they may be keeping tabs on what sites you visit, so be sure to use private browsing mode, or use an inaccessible device, delete history, etc.)
One of the first things you'll get at a shelter is a clean phone, and many - maybe all? - shelters now warn you to turn your device all the way off, and if possible remove the battery, before you go.
Domestic abuse is both the hardest and most underprioritized infosec problem out there, involving victims with the fewest resources, in close physical proximity to their attackers, at greatest risk of serious physical harm.
posted by mhoye at 8:09 AM on December 6, 2021 [24 favorites]
One of the first things you'll get at a shelter is a clean phone, and many - maybe all? - shelters now warn you to turn your device all the way off, and if possible remove the battery, before you go.
Domestic abuse is both the hardest and most underprioritized infosec problem out there, involving victims with the fewest resources, in close physical proximity to their attackers, at greatest risk of serious physical harm.
posted by mhoye at 8:09 AM on December 6, 2021 [24 favorites]
In Canada I think you would find a stronger link between hate communities and mass events than domestic violence.
In medicine this sort of thing is called a co-morbidity, and Canada is no exception to it; people who commit acts of public violence have, almost invariably, been practising them at home for a long time.
posted by mhoye at 8:39 AM on December 6, 2021 [8 favorites]
In medicine this sort of thing is called a co-morbidity, and Canada is no exception to it; people who commit acts of public violence have, almost invariably, been practising them at home for a long time.
posted by mhoye at 8:39 AM on December 6, 2021 [8 favorites]
In medicine this sort of thing is called a co-morbidity, and Canada is no exception to it; people who commit acts of public violence have, almost invariably, been practising them at home for a long time.
Look - I'm not arguing that people who commit acts of public violence have a history. But this article is Canadian, and the mass events in Canada that I listed comprise the mass events in Canada. Canadians need to look at the actual data IN CANADA and not always be dominated by the American active shooter discourse, and the way that Americans always push that agenda into every discussion can be offputting to me anyway.
Canadian domestic violence - all domestic violence - is a huge and serious issue and we need to examine it, not go on whatever Americans have been saying about active shooters.
posted by warriorqueen at 8:53 AM on December 6, 2021 [14 favorites]
Look - I'm not arguing that people who commit acts of public violence have a history. But this article is Canadian, and the mass events in Canada that I listed comprise the mass events in Canada. Canadians need to look at the actual data IN CANADA and not always be dominated by the American active shooter discourse, and the way that Americans always push that agenda into every discussion can be offputting to me anyway.
Canadian domestic violence - all domestic violence - is a huge and serious issue and we need to examine it, not go on whatever Americans have been saying about active shooters.
posted by warriorqueen at 8:53 AM on December 6, 2021 [14 favorites]
Every abused woman I've known has an abusive live-in partner that they wouldn't be able to afford rent without that second income.
Also: bring back a system where single parents are able to afford to live for a while until they get a job or while they are unemployed. This is a huge reason people can’t leave as well.
posted by corb at 9:11 AM on December 6, 2021 [16 favorites]
Also: bring back a system where single parents are able to afford to live for a while until they get a job or while they are unemployed. This is a huge reason people can’t leave as well.
posted by corb at 9:11 AM on December 6, 2021 [16 favorites]
Unfortunately, the most common warning sign they found is "recent separation", which doesn't seem like it would help narrow things down much.
posted by clawsoon at 10:05 AM on December 6, 2021 [4 favorites]
posted by clawsoon at 10:05 AM on December 6, 2021 [4 favorites]
Unfortunately, the most common warning sign they found is "recent separation", which doesn't seem like it would help narrow things down much.
This actually is a useful finding, in that it shows that the most dangerous time for any person in an abusive relationship is the point at which they try to leave or end that relationship. What this means is that we can evaluate risk to people in the process of leaving and undermine safety measures that can be conducted for people at risk, including things like restraining the movements of the abusive partner if we have the luxury of a judicial and policing system that takes domestic violence seriously. Even if we don't have that luxury, this finding (which is well replicated) is useful in that it allows us to give people in the process of leaving abusive partners help and support, warn them about the risks of continued contact and access, and to document any threats and log them with a potentially hostile judicial system.
Essentially, you are flagging a specific time point in these relationships as high risk rather than flagging individual relationships as high risk, but you can still direct resources appropriately to support survivors once the flag is there. And it's always a good idea to take these kinds of threats seriously when someone is ending an abusive relationship, no matter what types of abuse have previously been exerted in the course of the relationship.
Additionally, because so much abuse is enabled by the cultural judgements of onlookers and the essential entitlement of abusers, spreading this information--you are at particular risk around the point of leaving--can help shape the cultural response to general cases of partners separating, which can in itself long-term erode the allowances that people give these kinds of abusive partners about how much they are "allowed" or "expected" to act out in the context of a partner leaving them.
posted by sciatrix at 11:29 AM on December 6, 2021 [31 favorites]
This actually is a useful finding, in that it shows that the most dangerous time for any person in an abusive relationship is the point at which they try to leave or end that relationship. What this means is that we can evaluate risk to people in the process of leaving and undermine safety measures that can be conducted for people at risk, including things like restraining the movements of the abusive partner if we have the luxury of a judicial and policing system that takes domestic violence seriously. Even if we don't have that luxury, this finding (which is well replicated) is useful in that it allows us to give people in the process of leaving abusive partners help and support, warn them about the risks of continued contact and access, and to document any threats and log them with a potentially hostile judicial system.
Essentially, you are flagging a specific time point in these relationships as high risk rather than flagging individual relationships as high risk, but you can still direct resources appropriately to support survivors once the flag is there. And it's always a good idea to take these kinds of threats seriously when someone is ending an abusive relationship, no matter what types of abuse have previously been exerted in the course of the relationship.
Additionally, because so much abuse is enabled by the cultural judgements of onlookers and the essential entitlement of abusers, spreading this information--you are at particular risk around the point of leaving--can help shape the cultural response to general cases of partners separating, which can in itself long-term erode the allowances that people give these kinds of abusive partners about how much they are "allowed" or "expected" to act out in the context of a partner leaving them.
posted by sciatrix at 11:29 AM on December 6, 2021 [31 favorites]
Great points sciatrix, thanks.
posted by clawsoon at 12:03 PM on December 6, 2021 [2 favorites]
posted by clawsoon at 12:03 PM on December 6, 2021 [2 favorites]
What should a society do with its abusers? The psychiatric field does not appear to have an effective treatment solution to chronic violence like this and if it tapers off as a habit with old age, it does so at a late arc - I've heard of many a middle-aged abuser engaging in family annihilation or partner homicide. Should penalties for domestic abuse result in longer prison sentences that separate them from society because all they need is a family setting to recidivate?
posted by Selena777 at 12:53 PM on December 6, 2021 [3 favorites]
posted by Selena777 at 12:53 PM on December 6, 2021 [3 favorites]
These are all warning signs of bad relationships but none of them are actually predictors of domestic murder because they utterly fail to discriminate. That is, those behaviours or even patterns of behaviours are not at all unique to domestic murderers. Unfortunately most of them are extremely common behaviors of people who do not progress to murder.
These warning signs are all great reasons for GTFO and then DTMFA (carefully and perhaps from a distance) but not because they are pre-murderers. Instead it is because you in a shitty relationship with a domestic abuser.
I wish there was an actually predictive warning sign for who will become a murderer but it hasn't been found yet.
posted by srboisvert at 1:14 PM on December 6, 2021 [2 favorites]
These warning signs are all great reasons for GTFO and then DTMFA (carefully and perhaps from a distance) but not because they are pre-murderers. Instead it is because you in a shitty relationship with a domestic abuser.
I wish there was an actually predictive warning sign for who will become a murderer but it hasn't been found yet.
posted by srboisvert at 1:14 PM on December 6, 2021 [2 favorites]
The analysis overlaps with the legalization of physician assisted suicide so I'm wondering how many of the cases wouldn't occur today. Specifically the victims in their 80s-90s.
This is a really important topic, but the data visualization and analysis, and lack of reference to any related earlier studies (of which there are a number, albeit the stats I’ve seen are out of the US rather than Canada), is a bit frustrating.
Canada, especially when it comes to this issue, isn't USA-lite as is easily seen by stabbing being the leading cause of death rather than firearms. It was kind of refreshing honestly to see data that wasn't 50% contrasting or blending with the US.
Domestic violence is the #1 predictor of mass murder such as active shooter incidents, so if society starts taking the threat of violence against women seriously,
While the vast majority of victims are women somewhere around 20% of the victims are men. This is a significant minority. Ignoring male victims is tossing a lot of the data aside. Data that would be informative I'd think for both where it aligns and differs from female victims.
This actually is a useful finding, in that it shows that the most dangerous time for any person in an abusive relationship is the point at which they try to leave or end that relationship
What I found so amazing about the data is separation isn't the most dangerous time being a factor in only 20% of cases. Implies that GTFO of an abusive relationship is way more important than I thought.
posted by Mitheral at 2:13 PM on December 6, 2021
This is a really important topic, but the data visualization and analysis, and lack of reference to any related earlier studies (of which there are a number, albeit the stats I’ve seen are out of the US rather than Canada), is a bit frustrating.
Canada, especially when it comes to this issue, isn't USA-lite as is easily seen by stabbing being the leading cause of death rather than firearms. It was kind of refreshing honestly to see data that wasn't 50% contrasting or blending with the US.
Domestic violence is the #1 predictor of mass murder such as active shooter incidents, so if society starts taking the threat of violence against women seriously,
While the vast majority of victims are women somewhere around 20% of the victims are men. This is a significant minority. Ignoring male victims is tossing a lot of the data aside. Data that would be informative I'd think for both where it aligns and differs from female victims.
This actually is a useful finding, in that it shows that the most dangerous time for any person in an abusive relationship is the point at which they try to leave or end that relationship
What I found so amazing about the data is separation isn't the most dangerous time being a factor in only 20% of cases. Implies that GTFO of an abusive relationship is way more important than I thought.
posted by Mitheral at 2:13 PM on December 6, 2021
I actually suspect a flaw in their analysis because the separation number is practically inverted from what I thought. I wonder if that is because so much data is from there the USA and there is a difference captured by this data where abused Canadians leave abusive relationships earlier than Americans. EG: Maybe healthcare not being tied to a partners employment lets Canadians GTFO?
posted by Mitheral at 2:20 PM on December 6, 2021
posted by Mitheral at 2:20 PM on December 6, 2021
What should a society do with its abusers?
The actual answer is to create a society where:
A) Men do not feel entitlement over their female partners*
B) People do not feel as they do not matter socially unless they have a partner
C) Sex work is normalized, legalized, and made safe for workers
Thus enabling people who really, really shouldn't be in fucking relationships the ability to get social status even as a single person, and to not feel like they are required to dominate another person in able to get access to sex.
*Same gendered abuse exists but is not the norm or the most likely to be fatal, so this would significantly improve matters
posted by corb at 2:20 PM on December 6, 2021 [2 favorites]
The actual answer is to create a society where:
A) Men do not feel entitlement over their female partners*
B) People do not feel as they do not matter socially unless they have a partner
C) Sex work is normalized, legalized, and made safe for workers
Thus enabling people who really, really shouldn't be in fucking relationships the ability to get social status even as a single person, and to not feel like they are required to dominate another person in able to get access to sex.
*Same gendered abuse exists but is not the norm or the most likely to be fatal, so this would significantly improve matters
posted by corb at 2:20 PM on December 6, 2021 [2 favorites]
While the vast majority of victims are women somewhere around 20% of the victims are men. This is a significant minority. Ignoring male victims is tossing a lot of the data aside. Data that would be informative I'd think for both where it aligns and differs from female victims.
It's not about gender, really, at the end, although its incidence heavily falls on gendered lines. Abuse is always about power (and in US society, gender is also always about power). I suspect that many of the male victims of IPV are marginalized in terms of race, class, disability, etc. I also don't know statistics on this and cannot bring myself to dig in to them right now, but I suspect (based on personal experience) that non-binary and trans people are much more likely to be victims of IPV when compared with cis people.
posted by twelve cent archie at 3:19 PM on December 6, 2021 [2 favorites]
It's not about gender, really, at the end, although its incidence heavily falls on gendered lines. Abuse is always about power (and in US society, gender is also always about power). I suspect that many of the male victims of IPV are marginalized in terms of race, class, disability, etc. I also don't know statistics on this and cannot bring myself to dig in to them right now, but I suspect (based on personal experience) that non-binary and trans people are much more likely to be victims of IPV when compared with cis people.
posted by twelve cent archie at 3:19 PM on December 6, 2021 [2 favorites]
C) Sex work is normalized, legalized, and made safe for workers
it is not safe for professionals to work for abusers, for all the same reasons it is not safe for amateurs to date or marry them. maybe this is exactly what you meant? but the following "thus..." makes it a little unclear.
Thus enabling people who really, really shouldn't be in fucking relationships the ability to get social status even as a single person, and to not feel like they are required to dominate another person in able to get access to sex.
it is not obvious to me that abusers ought to have higher social status than they do.
it does also seem that the higher an abuser's social status, the more scope for abuse they have and the wider their field of accessible victims.
I also don't think most people who dominate others do so because they feel they are required to, for the most part. they do it because they like it.
the only way sex work is ever safe and tolerable is when sex workers are fully empowered and unafraid to say No to would-be clients who cross their personal thresholds of unpleasantness. there is no way to guarantee an aggressively unpleasant person "access" to sex and no reason to ever try. even therapists aren't ethically obligated to accept clients they don't feel respected by or safe alone in a room with, and all they have to do is sit several feet away and nod understandingly. sex workers do more than that, and consequently must have absolute freedom and discretion to refuse service without offering courtesy referrals. safety and status for sex workers is not compatible with providing equal access to "sex" for everyone. and social status for them is a worthier goal than social status for single abusers.
posted by queenofbithynia at 5:17 PM on December 6, 2021 [12 favorites]
it is not safe for professionals to work for abusers, for all the same reasons it is not safe for amateurs to date or marry them. maybe this is exactly what you meant? but the following "thus..." makes it a little unclear.
Thus enabling people who really, really shouldn't be in fucking relationships the ability to get social status even as a single person, and to not feel like they are required to dominate another person in able to get access to sex.
it is not obvious to me that abusers ought to have higher social status than they do.
it does also seem that the higher an abuser's social status, the more scope for abuse they have and the wider their field of accessible victims.
I also don't think most people who dominate others do so because they feel they are required to, for the most part. they do it because they like it.
the only way sex work is ever safe and tolerable is when sex workers are fully empowered and unafraid to say No to would-be clients who cross their personal thresholds of unpleasantness. there is no way to guarantee an aggressively unpleasant person "access" to sex and no reason to ever try. even therapists aren't ethically obligated to accept clients they don't feel respected by or safe alone in a room with, and all they have to do is sit several feet away and nod understandingly. sex workers do more than that, and consequently must have absolute freedom and discretion to refuse service without offering courtesy referrals. safety and status for sex workers is not compatible with providing equal access to "sex" for everyone. and social status for them is a worthier goal than social status for single abusers.
posted by queenofbithynia at 5:17 PM on December 6, 2021 [12 favorites]
I wish there was an actually predictive warning sign for who will become a murderer but it hasn't been found yet.
IIRC, strangling attempts, putting hands on the throat of a woman in a physical altercation is one of the big predictors of a man attempting to kill a woman.
The way fights and violence progress are another - there is usually a pattern to how they progress. In that it is progressing as opposed to a certain consistent level of violence.
And lastly, a woman’s intuition regarding her partner’s capability for harm. Unfortunately women are taught to ignore this feeling. Even when she doesn’t, most people around her will tell her she’s being dramatic or crazy, or blowing it out of proportion.
I had started to write a longer response, but was sidetracked. But came here to say Gift of Fear.
I suspect more than anything that 1/3 the warning signs mentioned in the article are just those they looked at and that none had no warning signs. I’m going to guess 3/3 of the women knew they were in danger, that it scratched in the back of their minds like an itch they could not quite scratch.
posted by [insert clever name here] at 6:15 PM on December 6, 2021 [1 favorite]
IIRC, strangling attempts, putting hands on the throat of a woman in a physical altercation is one of the big predictors of a man attempting to kill a woman.
The way fights and violence progress are another - there is usually a pattern to how they progress. In that it is progressing as opposed to a certain consistent level of violence.
And lastly, a woman’s intuition regarding her partner’s capability for harm. Unfortunately women are taught to ignore this feeling. Even when she doesn’t, most people around her will tell her she’s being dramatic or crazy, or blowing it out of proportion.
I had started to write a longer response, but was sidetracked. But came here to say Gift of Fear.
I suspect more than anything that 1/3 the warning signs mentioned in the article are just those they looked at and that none had no warning signs. I’m going to guess 3/3 of the women knew they were in danger, that it scratched in the back of their minds like an itch they could not quite scratch.
posted by [insert clever name here] at 6:15 PM on December 6, 2021 [1 favorite]
Guns in the home also increase a woman’s risk of dying by gun violence something like 5 fold. They’re so ubiquitous, that for some crazy ass reason, it’s rarely discussed. (It raises mortality for men too, and by a greater extent, but due to suicide not homicide.)
posted by [insert clever name here] at 6:19 PM on December 6, 2021 [2 favorites]
posted by [insert clever name here] at 6:19 PM on December 6, 2021 [2 favorites]
Guns are not, in fact, ubiquitous in Canada.
posted by sagc at 6:29 PM on December 6, 2021 [10 favorites]
posted by sagc at 6:29 PM on December 6, 2021 [10 favorites]
Additionally, because so much abuse is enabled by the cultural judgements of onlookers and the essential entitlement of abusers, spreading this information--you are at particular risk around the point of leaving--can help shape the cultural response to general cases of partners separating, which can in itself long-term erode the allowances that people give these kinds of abusive partners about how much they are "allowed" or "expected" to act out in the context of a partner leaving them.
Yeah, I wish I had a nickel for every time I’ve heard a victim blamed for their own murder with some variation on “Why didn’t they just leave?” This research confirms that in a lot of cases they DID leave, and it didn’t save them.
posted by The Underpants Monster at 7:09 PM on December 6, 2021 [5 favorites]
Yeah, I wish I had a nickel for every time I’ve heard a victim blamed for their own murder with some variation on “Why didn’t they just leave?” This research confirms that in a lot of cases they DID leave, and it didn’t save them.
posted by The Underpants Monster at 7:09 PM on December 6, 2021 [5 favorites]
Canada, especially when it comes to this issue, isn't USA-lite as is easily seen by stabbing being the leading cause of death rather than firearms. It was kind of refreshing honestly to see data that wasn't 50% contrasting or blending with the US.
You seem to have misread or misinterpreted my point? Or, I’m not sure why you quoted me just before this comment, since it seems unrelated? To expand on my comment: (1) The graphs in the article are difficult to read and don’t clearly display the relevant information. (2) That they were able to identify commonalities between many of the cases does not necessarily make those commonalities warning signs - eg. being in a heterosexual relationship seems to have been a significantly more prevalent factor than any of the five warning signs identified. “Warning sign” indicates predictive power, as in, if these red flags occur, risk of violence or murder by one’s intimate partner is above some threshold. I strongly suspect that is, in fact, the case for the red flags they identified, but to support that conclusion with actual data, one would need to look at a statistically significant and fair sample of relationships, and see how frequently those red flag activities were followed up by lethal violence. In other words, the evidence presented is insufficient for the conclusions they draw, which is shoddy data analysis. (3) The study also did not refer to any previous research literature studying this issue in Canada, note did it indicate that no such literature exists - it seems they simply didn’t do any background reading? I’m fairly sure there is at least some Canadian-specific background literature on the subject, because there is a fair amount of such literature in the US, so it not being studied at all in Canada seems unlikely to me. Also I think I’ve actually seen some Canadian stats before, but I don’t remember the details.), so I could be wrong.
All of the above is unfortunate, because this is a really important topic, and good data could be useful in making better policy and in highlighting the urgency of the need to address gender and intimate partner violence. Hopefully this study will serve as a starting point, at least. It does seem to be getting some publicity - I heard it on CBC this afternoon on my way home from work, at least. The timing of the release, on Dec. 6 (national commemoration of the Montreal Massacre) was likely chosen intentionally. ‘Course, every other year, we hear about violence against women and femicides for a week at the beginning of December, and then the topic largely disappears again until next Dec. 6.
posted by eviemath at 7:20 PM on December 6, 2021 [1 favorite]
You seem to have misread or misinterpreted my point? Or, I’m not sure why you quoted me just before this comment, since it seems unrelated? To expand on my comment: (1) The graphs in the article are difficult to read and don’t clearly display the relevant information. (2) That they were able to identify commonalities between many of the cases does not necessarily make those commonalities warning signs - eg. being in a heterosexual relationship seems to have been a significantly more prevalent factor than any of the five warning signs identified. “Warning sign” indicates predictive power, as in, if these red flags occur, risk of violence or murder by one’s intimate partner is above some threshold. I strongly suspect that is, in fact, the case for the red flags they identified, but to support that conclusion with actual data, one would need to look at a statistically significant and fair sample of relationships, and see how frequently those red flag activities were followed up by lethal violence. In other words, the evidence presented is insufficient for the conclusions they draw, which is shoddy data analysis. (3) The study also did not refer to any previous research literature studying this issue in Canada, note did it indicate that no such literature exists - it seems they simply didn’t do any background reading? I’m fairly sure there is at least some Canadian-specific background literature on the subject, because there is a fair amount of such literature in the US, so it not being studied at all in Canada seems unlikely to me. Also I think I’ve actually seen some Canadian stats before, but I don’t remember the details.), so I could be wrong.
All of the above is unfortunate, because this is a really important topic, and good data could be useful in making better policy and in highlighting the urgency of the need to address gender and intimate partner violence. Hopefully this study will serve as a starting point, at least. It does seem to be getting some publicity - I heard it on CBC this afternoon on my way home from work, at least. The timing of the release, on Dec. 6 (national commemoration of the Montreal Massacre) was likely chosen intentionally. ‘Course, every other year, we hear about violence against women and femicides for a week at the beginning of December, and then the topic largely disappears again until next Dec. 6.
posted by eviemath at 7:20 PM on December 6, 2021 [1 favorite]
Anyway, having spent significant chunks of my life in both the US and Canada, it has been my observation that while there are certainly differences in the window dressing, the fundamental dynamics of misogyny (and how misogyny overlaps with racism) are pretty much the same in both countries. But actual research data on that, rather than just my individual impressions, would be useful.
posted by eviemath at 7:25 PM on December 6, 2021
posted by eviemath at 7:25 PM on December 6, 2021
But actual research data on that, rather than just my individual impressions, would be useful.
I do remember some research from Environics which found that Canadians are significantly less patriarchal than Americans (the question was something like "should a man be the head of the household?"), to the point that even our most patriarchal region (Alberta) was less patriarchal than the least patriarchal region (New England, I think?) in the US. It's possible that this would lead to less of the entitlement beliefs that can drive violence, but that's only a guess on my part.
posted by clawsoon at 8:02 PM on December 6, 2021 [1 favorite]
I do remember some research from Environics which found that Canadians are significantly less patriarchal than Americans (the question was something like "should a man be the head of the household?"), to the point that even our most patriarchal region (Alberta) was less patriarchal than the least patriarchal region (New England, I think?) in the US. It's possible that this would lead to less of the entitlement beliefs that can drive violence, but that's only a guess on my part.
posted by clawsoon at 8:02 PM on December 6, 2021 [1 favorite]
Sex work is normalized, legalized, and made safe for workers
Sex work has been legal in Canada for a long time. Canada has already had a well-known case of a man convicted of murdering his ex-spouse being granted permission to engage sex workers without disclosing his past, and then assaulting several sex workers ans eventually murdering one. Sex workers are people equally entitled to safety and men are not entitled to access to sex workers.
posted by saucysault at 8:50 PM on December 6, 2021 [12 favorites]
Sex work has been legal in Canada for a long time. Canada has already had a well-known case of a man convicted of murdering his ex-spouse being granted permission to engage sex workers without disclosing his past, and then assaulting several sex workers ans eventually murdering one. Sex workers are people equally entitled to safety and men are not entitled to access to sex workers.
posted by saucysault at 8:50 PM on December 6, 2021 [12 favorites]
the only way sex work is ever safe and tolerable is when sex workers are fully empowered and unafraid to say No to would-be clients who cross their personal thresholds of unpleasantness
To be clear: I 100% agree that workers are and should be free to decline their clients; my thought was that if men had to fear being put on a literal blacklist to access sex, they would behave better, however, it's possible I suppose that they would just...not, which is dispiriting and makes me feel just hopeless but is probably reality.
Perhaps it is impossible to solve the problem of men's entitlement. But I don't know what to do about it; Crone Island does not exist and most of us must live in a world where men exist and where abusers often enact a scale of abuse that is still real even if it doesn't rise to the level of femicide.
posted by corb at 10:04 PM on December 6, 2021 [2 favorites]
To be clear: I 100% agree that workers are and should be free to decline their clients; my thought was that if men had to fear being put on a literal blacklist to access sex, they would behave better, however, it's possible I suppose that they would just...not, which is dispiriting and makes me feel just hopeless but is probably reality.
Perhaps it is impossible to solve the problem of men's entitlement. But I don't know what to do about it; Crone Island does not exist and most of us must live in a world where men exist and where abusers often enact a scale of abuse that is still real even if it doesn't rise to the level of femicide.
posted by corb at 10:04 PM on December 6, 2021 [2 favorites]
Hopefully this study will serve as a starting point, at least. It does seem to be getting some publicity
It's a CBC investigation (data journalism), not an academic study, which is one reason CBC was covering it. That's why the availability of the data is a part of the report as well.
posted by warriorqueen at 5:00 AM on December 7, 2021
It's a CBC investigation (data journalism), not an academic study, which is one reason CBC was covering it. That's why the availability of the data is a part of the report as well.
posted by warriorqueen at 5:00 AM on December 7, 2021
Well sure, but that doesn’t mean that their reporting can’t or shouldn’t include “what is the history of this issue or of other investigations into it” or that drawing conclusions unsupported by the data isn’t also shoddy journalism/false reporting. (Unfortunately, the data visualization issues are unsurprising in either case.)
posted by eviemath at 6:08 AM on December 7, 2021
posted by eviemath at 6:08 AM on December 7, 2021
That's true, and I'm curious to see what the other reports in the series come up with.
However, I really think - and I don't know your background - if you don't understand the Canadian context you won't get what this report is about. It's about the quality of data that's available from province to province, as well as the other issues covered in the series:
Link to series homepage
How the series started: Canada faces a domestic violence problem
Recent additions besides this one:
How the CBC crunched the numbers
Coercive control
posted by warriorqueen at 6:47 AM on December 7, 2021 [3 favorites]
However, I really think - and I don't know your background - if you don't understand the Canadian context you won't get what this report is about. It's about the quality of data that's available from province to province, as well as the other issues covered in the series:
Link to series homepage
How the series started: Canada faces a domestic violence problem
Recent additions besides this one:
How the CBC crunched the numbers
Coercive control
posted by warriorqueen at 6:47 AM on December 7, 2021 [3 favorites]
There are definitely some interesting and important details, like what you mention about the quality of data available, yes! And like I said previously, this report is important in highlighting areas where more research needs to be done. Definitely not what they’re leading with (eg. the short version on the radio was simply “these are the warning signs”). I imagine the accurate version feels less headline-grabbing to whoever decides these things. And/or makes a lot of people uncomfortable, in realizing how contiguous the spectrum is between femicide/lethal intimate partner violence and completely common misogyny/ patriarchal behaviours within domestic relationships/ nonviolent forms of abusive or controlling behavior.
posted by eviemath at 7:10 AM on December 7, 2021
posted by eviemath at 7:10 AM on December 7, 2021
clawsoon, you wouldn’t happen to have a non-paywalled link? In the US, attitudes around women being heads of household are also influenced by socioeconomic status, and the US-Canadian difference you note would potentially align with that. And we can see in even more disparate cultures that the exact forms that patriarchy or misogyny takes can vary a fair amount (which can make comparing countries on a single scale of how patriarchal are they a bit difficult). But there may well be more to the study you mention than that one topic, of course, just as warriorqueen‘s links point out that there’s a bit more behind the CBC report linked in the FPP.
(Although their “How the CBC crunched the numbers” article is about how they collected the data, not how they analyzed it. Also interesting and important - especially in pointing out how hard it is to acquire relevant data, and that lack of data collection is tied to and perpetuates the lack of adequate attention to domestic violence across Canada. But slightly frustrating in being a misleading title.)
posted by eviemath at 7:38 AM on December 7, 2021
(Although their “How the CBC crunched the numbers” article is about how they collected the data, not how they analyzed it. Also interesting and important - especially in pointing out how hard it is to acquire relevant data, and that lack of data collection is tied to and perpetuates the lack of adequate attention to domestic violence across Canada. But slightly frustrating in being a misleading title.)
posted by eviemath at 7:38 AM on December 7, 2021
clawsoon, you wouldn’t happen to have a non-paywalled link?
Ah, I didn't realize it was paywalled, sorry. For some reason it's coming up free for me. Let's see... does this archive link work?
Here's another editorial from the same author with more correlations (education, religion, Constitution).
A lecture by the author, which unfortunately doesn't show any of the slides.
posted by clawsoon at 1:48 PM on December 7, 2021 [1 favorite]
Ah, I didn't realize it was paywalled, sorry. For some reason it's coming up free for me. Let's see... does this archive link work?
Here's another editorial from the same author with more correlations (education, religion, Constitution).
A lecture by the author, which unfortunately doesn't show any of the slides.
posted by clawsoon at 1:48 PM on December 7, 2021 [1 favorite]
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posted by Alex404 at 2:16 AM on December 6, 2021 [5 favorites]