The Summit of Democracies is a wrong idea
December 7, 2021 12:33 PM Subscribe
(for the world)
Why dividing the world in blocks; the lack of a non-aligned movement; the misplaced righteousness of the western media.
What could go wrong?
Why dividing the world in blocks; the lack of a non-aligned movement; the misplaced righteousness of the western media.
What could go wrong?
This post was deleted for the following reason: Poster's Request -- goodnewsfortheinsane
I don't trust Substack as a source (or op eds in any paper for that matter), but a legitimate news article in the Washington Post also pointed out that the inclusion and exclusion of countries in this summit appears arbitrary and interested and calls the entire basis into question (paywalled link, unfortunately).
posted by splitpeasoup at 2:44 PM on December 7, 2021 [2 favorites]
posted by splitpeasoup at 2:44 PM on December 7, 2021 [2 favorites]
The whole thing is nothing more than a loud, stank fart directed at the One-China Policy; a transparent exercise in stirring up cold war bullshit for the benefit of the military-industrial complex.
posted by moorooka at 2:44 PM on December 7, 2021 [4 favorites]
posted by moorooka at 2:44 PM on December 7, 2021 [4 favorites]
More than 100 nations’ presidents, prime ministers and kings will virtually meet at the Summit of Democracies
Umm...?
(I get that constitutional monarchies are a thing, but the royalty aren't particularly good representatives of the actual democracy side of that.)
posted by Dysk at 5:08 PM on December 7, 2021 [2 favorites]
Umm...?
(I get that constitutional monarchies are a thing, but the royalty aren't particularly good representatives of the actual democracy side of that.)
posted by Dysk at 5:08 PM on December 7, 2021 [2 favorites]
The real summit of democracies would be a non-aligned movement.
posted by eustatic at 8:03 PM on December 7, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by eustatic at 8:03 PM on December 7, 2021 [1 favorite]
Well, the King of Sweden came to Flint Michigan for the bio-gas ground breaking. A monarch with sway but no real power in a democracy like Sweden. What is more democratic then turning human waste into fuel.
posted by clavdivs at 8:14 PM on December 7, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by clavdivs at 8:14 PM on December 7, 2021 [1 favorite]
china's belt and road and russia's little green men and internet research agency are also dividing up the world into spheres of influence, and pretty scary ones at times. if this summit of democracies is trying to make a halfhearted counterbalance via a halfass zoom meeting, i dont see a huge problem with it.
posted by wibari at 9:43 PM on December 7, 2021 [6 favorites]
posted by wibari at 9:43 PM on December 7, 2021 [6 favorites]
Senate backs Biden admin weapons sale to Saudi Arabia
posted by moorooka at 10:26 PM on December 7, 2021 [4 favorites]
posted by moorooka at 10:26 PM on December 7, 2021 [4 favorites]
Sure, the summit is about competing ideologies -- competing ideologies of democracy and authoritarianism.
The idea that the US represents democratic values globally is completely ludicrous. The United States has done more to undermine democracy and promote authoritarian regimes than any other country in the past 70 years, bar none. How is it that China building infrastructure is a threat to democracy, but endless US bombing campaigns, regime change wars, coups, and sanctions are all for the sake of democracy?
posted by thedamnbees at 6:18 AM on December 8, 2021 [4 favorites]
The idea that the US represents democratic values globally is completely ludicrous. The United States has done more to undermine democracy and promote authoritarian regimes than any other country in the past 70 years, bar none. How is it that China building infrastructure is a threat to democracy, but endless US bombing campaigns, regime change wars, coups, and sanctions are all for the sake of democracy?
posted by thedamnbees at 6:18 AM on December 8, 2021 [4 favorites]
Well, the King of Sweden came to Flint Michigan for the bio-gas ground breaking. A monarch with sway but no real power in a democracy like Sweden. What is more democratic then turning human waste into fuel.
Calling a monarch human waste and advocating for him to be turned into fuel is a bit harsh but I'll allow it. You've got my vote!
posted by srboisvert at 6:45 AM on December 8, 2021
Calling a monarch human waste and advocating for him to be turned into fuel is a bit harsh but I'll allow it. You've got my vote!
posted by srboisvert at 6:45 AM on December 8, 2021
How is it that China building infrastructure is a threat to democracy
if you think belt and road is really about china building infrastructure, hey, i've got a bridge to sell ya! or maybe they do! (thanks folks i'll be here all night.)
posted by wibari at 1:21 PM on December 8, 2021 [2 favorites]
if you think belt and road is really about china building infrastructure, hey, i've got a bridge to sell ya! or maybe they do! (thanks folks i'll be here all night.)
posted by wibari at 1:21 PM on December 8, 2021 [2 favorites]
Calling a monarch human waste and advocating for him to be turned into fuel is a bit harsh but I'll allow it. You've got my vote!
Did I call him that, noooo. He is Uber cool and is interested in alternate fuels and to come to Flint is a big deal. He should go, maybe the rest can learn something about a real democracy.
posted by clavdivs at 2:25 PM on December 8, 2021
Did I call him that, noooo. He is Uber cool and is interested in alternate fuels and to come to Flint is a big deal. He should go, maybe the rest can learn something about a real democracy.
posted by clavdivs at 2:25 PM on December 8, 2021
nice one wibari - but if you think American foreign policy is about promoting democracy, I have a failed state to sell you :)
posted by thedamnbees at 3:03 PM on December 8, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by thedamnbees at 3:03 PM on December 8, 2021 [1 favorite]
well, 1951 to present is a low bar, start at 1945 and compare the U.S. involvement in regime change and the Soviets and the numbers are still in the U.S. led by about 7 or 10 but that's just one Soviet Union and U.S. comparison. As to bombing, well, no doubt who drops the tonnage. But the cold war started in 1945, those 6 years created a
paradigm of competing ideologies. Under Soviet regime change is '1960: United States' kinda funny that one.
Open promotion of Democracy is like the cartoons circa 1946. Installing pliant clients is the preferred method by almost any power. Democracy is just a form of when in reality we live in a constitutional federal republic. And we got that from Revolution and it's subsequent amalgamation.
posted by clavdivs at 4:32 PM on December 8, 2021
paradigm of competing ideologies. Under Soviet regime change is '1960: United States' kinda funny that one.
Open promotion of Democracy is like the cartoons circa 1946. Installing pliant clients is the preferred method by almost any power. Democracy is just a form of when in reality we live in a constitutional federal republic. And we got that from Revolution and it's subsequent amalgamation.
posted by clavdivs at 4:32 PM on December 8, 2021
The idea that the US represents democratic values globally is completely ludicrous. The United States has done more to undermine democracy and promote authoritarian regimes than any other country in the past 70 years, bar none.
70 years is an oddly specific choice of time frame -- I note that it seems carefully chosen to exclude WW2 and its immediate aftermath, which if included would skew the stats rather differently. But whatever. I certainly don't affirm that the U.S. is the ultimate avatar of democratic values. But while, as I said, I know that no democracy is perfect (and perhaps none ever will be), that doesn't make the aspiration toward a more democratic world automatically invalid or phony. A flawed democracy is leading this summit because that's the only kind that exists in the real world.
posted by Artifice_Eternity at 10:58 PM on December 16, 2021 [1 favorite]
70 years is an oddly specific choice of time frame -- I note that it seems carefully chosen to exclude WW2 and its immediate aftermath, which if included would skew the stats rather differently. But whatever. I certainly don't affirm that the U.S. is the ultimate avatar of democratic values. But while, as I said, I know that no democracy is perfect (and perhaps none ever will be), that doesn't make the aspiration toward a more democratic world automatically invalid or phony. A flawed democracy is leading this summit because that's the only kind that exists in the real world.
posted by Artifice_Eternity at 10:58 PM on December 16, 2021 [1 favorite]
The aspiration isn't phony, but it isn't merely a flawed democracy leading it, it's a force that has actively opposed the aspiration toward greater democracy by intervening to depose democratically elected governments in favour of US-friendly ones. There are quite a few flawed democracies that haven't done as much (or any!) anti-democratic (not merely undemocratic) regime change against popular left-wing governments in other countries.
posted by Dysk at 3:46 AM on December 17, 2021
posted by Dysk at 3:46 AM on December 17, 2021
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That doesn't make it a bad idea to invite countries that value democracy to meet and discuss their shared interests and concerns.
This piece strikes me as a more balanced look at the subject.
posted by Artifice_Eternity at 12:43 PM on December 7, 2021 [5 favorites]