A Measure Of Justice For Epstein's Victims
December 30, 2021 6:42 AM Subscribe
After a month long trial in New York, socialite and close confidante of Jeffrey Epstein, Ghislaine Maxwell, has been found guilty of five out of the six charges she was indicted on regarding her acquiring and grooming victims for the wealthy financier.
Specifically, Maxwell was found guilty of sex trafficking of a minor, transporting a minor with the intent to engage in criminal sexual activity, conspiracy to transport minors with intent to engage in criminal sexual activity, conspiracy to commit sex trafficking of minors, and conspiracy to entice minors to travel to engage in illegal sex acts, only being found not guilty on the charge of enticement of a minor to travel to engage in illegal sex acts.
Epstein previously on the Blue.
Specifically, Maxwell was found guilty of sex trafficking of a minor, transporting a minor with the intent to engage in criminal sexual activity, conspiracy to transport minors with intent to engage in criminal sexual activity, conspiracy to commit sex trafficking of minors, and conspiracy to entice minors to travel to engage in illegal sex acts, only being found not guilty on the charge of enticement of a minor to travel to engage in illegal sex acts.
Epstein previously on the Blue.
The BBC did what?! That’s some serious journalistic disintegrity. And also a part (albeit relatively small in just this one instance) of the structural issues that enable powerful people like Epstein to get away with abuses for so long.
posted by eviemath at 6:50 AM on December 30, 2021 [9 favorites]
posted by eviemath at 6:50 AM on December 30, 2021 [9 favorites]
Unlikely as it is, I really hope that this leads to the friends and patrons/clients of Epstein being fully exposed and facing consequences. This is a great first step towards accountability, but still leaves a lot of powerful men skating free at this point.
posted by Dip Flash at 6:57 AM on December 30, 2021 [20 favorites]
posted by Dip Flash at 6:57 AM on December 30, 2021 [20 favorites]
Oh just like that time so long ago last week when the BBC interviewed a relative of a former President dictator of Chile when they needed to ask "regular Chileans" what they thought of the new government. Ganzalo Pinochet is literally a member of a political party promoting fascism in Chile.
Par for the course, really.
posted by deadaluspark at 6:59 AM on December 30, 2021 [43 favorites]
Par for the course, really.
posted by deadaluspark at 6:59 AM on December 30, 2021 [43 favorites]
Oh just like that time so long ago last week when the BBC interviewed a relative of a former dictator of Chile when they needed to ask "regular Chileans" what they thought of the new government. Ganzalo Pinochet is literally a member of a political party promoting fascism in Chile.
"Up next, we'd like to get the reaction on the new German Chancellor from a regular German, Fred Hitler...."
posted by fortitude25 at 7:03 AM on December 30, 2021 [12 favorites]
"Up next, we'd like to get the reaction on the new German Chancellor from a regular German, Fred Hitler...."
posted by fortitude25 at 7:03 AM on December 30, 2021 [12 favorites]
The BBC has released a mealy-mouthed apology over the Dershbag, for what it's worth.
posted by NoxAeternum at 7:05 AM on December 30, 2021 [7 favorites]
posted by NoxAeternum at 7:05 AM on December 30, 2021 [7 favorites]
I mean we keep letting Dershowitz back on TV no matter how much of a fool he makes of himself. Earlier this week he was calling Desmond Tutu an anti-semite while literally sitting in front of a giant framed photo of Czar Nicholas II, one of the biggest anti-Semites in history.
something something never believe that anti-Semites are completely unaware of the absurdity of their replies something something Sartre.
posted by deadaluspark at 7:06 AM on December 30, 2021 [26 favorites]
something something never believe that anti-Semites are completely unaware of the absurdity of their replies something something Sartre.
posted by deadaluspark at 7:06 AM on December 30, 2021 [26 favorites]
Oh just like that time so long ago last week when the BBC interviewed a relative of a former President dictator of Chile when they needed to ask "regular Chileans" what they thought of the new government. Ganzalo Pinochet is literally a member of a political party promoting fascism in Chile.
Ugh. I know state supported media of colonizers is going to be colonialist, but with the global rise of fascism being a whole thing that’s been in the news the last several years and negatively impacting even countries like the UK, that’s particularly crappy too.
And shit moves like interviewing Dershowitz about anything related to the Epstein case (or anything, really, but to try not to derail the thread too far, the Maxwell verdict in particular) plays right into right wing narratives.
posted by eviemath at 7:09 AM on December 30, 2021 [4 favorites]
Ugh. I know state supported media of colonizers is going to be colonialist, but with the global rise of fascism being a whole thing that’s been in the news the last several years and negatively impacting even countries like the UK, that’s particularly crappy too.
And shit moves like interviewing Dershowitz about anything related to the Epstein case (or anything, really, but to try not to derail the thread too far, the Maxwell verdict in particular) plays right into right wing narratives.
posted by eviemath at 7:09 AM on December 30, 2021 [4 favorites]
I mean we keep letting Dershowitz back on TV no matter how much of a fool he makes of himself. He was calling Desmond Tutu and anti-semite while literally sitting in front of a giant framed photo of Czar Nicholas II, one of the biggest anti-Semites in history.
The Dershbag has made a career of presenting himself as The Honorable Alan Dershowitz, Esq., Constitutional Lawyer and Defender of Rights, and sadly people eat it up without actually looking at his history of being a fixer for the wealthy.
posted by NoxAeternum at 7:13 AM on December 30, 2021 [12 favorites]
The Dershbag has made a career of presenting himself as The Honorable Alan Dershowitz, Esq., Constitutional Lawyer and Defender of Rights, and sadly people eat it up without actually looking at his history of being a fixer for the wealthy.
posted by NoxAeternum at 7:13 AM on December 30, 2021 [12 favorites]
In respect to Maxwell:
1. I wonder if reddit will ever admit that /u/maxwellhill was very likely Ghislaine Maxwell, and was, for years, one of their most prolific posters. Who hasn't posted anything since she was arrested.
2. I fully expect something to happen to her, resulting in her inability to name names of the powerful people she helped groom children for.
3. Justice would have been Epstein going to jail when he was in the system the first time. Without convictions for high-level people that Epstein was offering his services to, this is just using Maxwell as the "fall guy" for a network of high-wealth, high-social-power pedophiles.
I too, hope we actually see something happen to people other than Maxwell involved in this, but the sheer number of people paid to carry water for these fucks is too damn high. The fact that the BBC didn't mention Dershowitz's connection to Epstein is proof in the pudding of that. We put the criminals on TV after they've robbed us blind. Foxes guarding the hen house.
posted by deadaluspark at 7:14 AM on December 30, 2021 [42 favorites]
1. I wonder if reddit will ever admit that /u/maxwellhill was very likely Ghislaine Maxwell, and was, for years, one of their most prolific posters. Who hasn't posted anything since she was arrested.
2. I fully expect something to happen to her, resulting in her inability to name names of the powerful people she helped groom children for.
3. Justice would have been Epstein going to jail when he was in the system the first time. Without convictions for high-level people that Epstein was offering his services to, this is just using Maxwell as the "fall guy" for a network of high-wealth, high-social-power pedophiles.
I too, hope we actually see something happen to people other than Maxwell involved in this, but the sheer number of people paid to carry water for these fucks is too damn high. The fact that the BBC didn't mention Dershowitz's connection to Epstein is proof in the pudding of that. We put the criminals on TV after they've robbed us blind. Foxes guarding the hen house.
posted by deadaluspark at 7:14 AM on December 30, 2021 [42 favorites]
plays right into right wing narratives.
The right seemed to have no problem with Dershowitz when he was on Trump's legal team and everyone was bringing up that he represented Epstein... It's a cult, it's not about anything rational.
posted by deadaluspark at 7:23 AM on December 30, 2021 [5 favorites]
The right seemed to have no problem with Dershowitz when he was on Trump's legal team and everyone was bringing up that he represented Epstein... It's a cult, it's not about anything rational.
posted by deadaluspark at 7:23 AM on December 30, 2021 [5 favorites]
Justice would have been Epstein going to jail when he was in the system the first time. Without convictions for high-level people that Epstein was offering his services to, this is just using Maxwell as the "fall guy" for a network of high-wealth, high-social-power pedophiles.
While this is a fair point, it's still important that Maxwell was convicted for a number of reasons - to show that yes, women can be abusers as well; to hold accountable the people who enable the elite; to point out what human trafficking actually looks like; etc. She may well be the "fall guy", but that doesn't make Maxwell any less a monster who deserves to be behind bars.
The right seemed to have no problem with Dershowitz when he was on Trump's legal team and everyone was bringing up that he represented Epstein
The problem wasn't that he represented Epstein - everyone deserves legal representation. The problem is that Alan Dershowitz has been one of the most vocal supporters of the position that "zealous representation" means dancing on the line of ethics and legality. Which is exactly why they had no problem with him.
posted by NoxAeternum at 7:30 AM on December 30, 2021 [23 favorites]
While this is a fair point, it's still important that Maxwell was convicted for a number of reasons - to show that yes, women can be abusers as well; to hold accountable the people who enable the elite; to point out what human trafficking actually looks like; etc. She may well be the "fall guy", but that doesn't make Maxwell any less a monster who deserves to be behind bars.
The right seemed to have no problem with Dershowitz when he was on Trump's legal team and everyone was bringing up that he represented Epstein
The problem wasn't that he represented Epstein - everyone deserves legal representation. The problem is that Alan Dershowitz has been one of the most vocal supporters of the position that "zealous representation" means dancing on the line of ethics and legality. Which is exactly why they had no problem with him.
posted by NoxAeternum at 7:30 AM on December 30, 2021 [23 favorites]
Also, this snarky tweet has been going around - Love is finishing each other's sentences.
posted by NoxAeternum at 7:36 AM on December 30, 2021 [29 favorites]
posted by NoxAeternum at 7:36 AM on December 30, 2021 [29 favorites]
Unlikely as it is, I really hope that this leads to the friends and patrons/clients of Epstein being fully exposed and facing consequences
Well, with one of them being quoted on TV as an impartial expert on the case (see upthread), I don't have a lot of confidence in that outcome.
But yes, it would be nice if the Wexners, Dubins, etc. etc. etc. of the world would face justice for their complicity in the Epstein ring, but... it's been clear for a while that the powers that be want as little of this dirty laundry being aired as possible.
posted by Noisy Pink Bubbles at 7:47 AM on December 30, 2021 [4 favorites]
Well, with one of them being quoted on TV as an impartial expert on the case (see upthread), I don't have a lot of confidence in that outcome.
But yes, it would be nice if the Wexners, Dubins, etc. etc. etc. of the world would face justice for their complicity in the Epstein ring, but... it's been clear for a while that the powers that be want as little of this dirty laundry being aired as possible.
posted by Noisy Pink Bubbles at 7:47 AM on December 30, 2021 [4 favorites]
Now do Prince Andrew
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 7:54 AM on December 30, 2021 [50 favorites]
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 7:54 AM on December 30, 2021 [50 favorites]
Also, shame on the BBC for allowing Alan Dershowitz on the air to discuss the case without any acknowledgement of either his position as Epstein's attorney who famously got him a sweetheart deal with regard to his abuses, or the accusations of him being a client of Epstein's
Sure this is bad and Dersh is a real blotch on the profession. But are we forgetting he was ALSO on the Lolita Express a bunch of times? And not just Epstein's lawyer but his bud?
I mean we aren't but I guess the BBC did
posted by TheProfessor at 8:02 AM on December 30, 2021 [5 favorites]
Sure this is bad and Dersh is a real blotch on the profession. But are we forgetting he was ALSO on the Lolita Express a bunch of times? And not just Epstein's lawyer but his bud?
I mean we aren't but I guess the BBC did
posted by TheProfessor at 8:02 AM on December 30, 2021 [5 favorites]
And the BBC continues to fuck up the coverage, with a demonstration of how the British press protect their own.
posted by NoxAeternum at 8:22 AM on December 30, 2021 [4 favorites]
posted by NoxAeternum at 8:22 AM on December 30, 2021 [4 favorites]
Without convictions for high-level people that Epstein was offering his services to, this is just using Maxwell as the "fall guy" for a network of high-wealth, high-social-power pedophiles.
Maxwell is "high-wealth, high-social-power". Private schools, Oxford, lived on a trust fund established by her father even after his mysterious death and subsequent revelation of the theft of his companies' pension funds. She seemed to have been Epstein's consigliere. As far as the clients are concerned, I've seen a lot of speculation that Prince Charles will give up his brother for prosecution once the queen dies, not sure how accurate that is.
posted by Halloween Jack at 8:26 AM on December 30, 2021 [6 favorites]
Maxwell is "high-wealth, high-social-power". Private schools, Oxford, lived on a trust fund established by her father even after his mysterious death and subsequent revelation of the theft of his companies' pension funds. She seemed to have been Epstein's consigliere. As far as the clients are concerned, I've seen a lot of speculation that Prince Charles will give up his brother for prosecution once the queen dies, not sure how accurate that is.
posted by Halloween Jack at 8:26 AM on December 30, 2021 [6 favorites]
Lots of photos of Maxwell with Elon Musk and Trump floating around today. I wonder if she'll cut a deal to reduce her sentence. Better that than to risk getting suicided in prison, maybe.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 8:31 AM on December 30, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 8:31 AM on December 30, 2021 [1 favorite]
deadaluspark:
I wonder if reddit will ever admit that /u/maxwellhill was very likely Ghislaine Maxwell, and was, for years, one of their most prolific posters. Who hasn't posted anything since she was arrested.
In case anyone else was wondering about that like I was, here's an article about that.
posted by Ampersand692 at 8:45 AM on December 30, 2021 [10 favorites]
I wonder if reddit will ever admit that /u/maxwellhill was very likely Ghislaine Maxwell, and was, for years, one of their most prolific posters. Who hasn't posted anything since she was arrested.
In case anyone else was wondering about that like I was, here's an article about that.
posted by Ampersand692 at 8:45 AM on December 30, 2021 [10 favorites]
The problem wasn't that he represented Epstein - everyone deserves legal representation.
It sure is a problem if he's being interviewed as a disinterested legal commentator about a case that is deeply intertwined with his former client!
posted by BungaDunga at 8:47 AM on December 30, 2021 [6 favorites]
It sure is a problem if he's being interviewed as a disinterested legal commentator about a case that is deeply intertwined with his former client!
posted by BungaDunga at 8:47 AM on December 30, 2021 [6 favorites]
A skeptical take on the Reddit thing.
posted by BungaDunga at 8:50 AM on December 30, 2021 [15 favorites]
posted by BungaDunga at 8:50 AM on December 30, 2021 [15 favorites]
The problem wasn't that he represented Epstein - everyone deserves legal representation. The problem is that Alan Dershowitz has been one of the most vocal supporters of the position that "zealous representation" means dancing on the line of ethics and legality. Which is exactly why they had no problem with him.
The problem I have is that I am pretty certain Epstein's sweetheart deal negotiated by Dershowitz involved a criminal conspiracy to pervert the course of justice involving everyone except the victims.
posted by srboisvert at 8:59 AM on December 30, 2021 [12 favorites]
The problem I have is that I am pretty certain Epstein's sweetheart deal negotiated by Dershowitz involved a criminal conspiracy to pervert the course of justice involving everyone except the victims.
posted by srboisvert at 8:59 AM on December 30, 2021 [12 favorites]
Disinclined to believe the Reddit conspiracy, instead of focusing on the real perpetrators who will likely never face consequences, people are harassing this unrelated account because that guy is within their reach. IMO.
posted by subdee at 9:01 AM on December 30, 2021 [4 favorites]
posted by subdee at 9:01 AM on December 30, 2021 [4 favorites]
From the piece Ampersand692 linked:
And the point can and should be zoomed out from reddit itself, and internet discourse itself, into just general media discourse: as things like BBC acting gormlessly Somehow An Interview Happened passive-voicing and so many umpty other examples of powerful men never being touched.
I really really hope this truly is a first step towards accountability for others, because my inner cynic needs no more feeding. Its larder is practically a hoarder situation as is.
posted by Drastic at 9:02 AM on December 30, 2021 [14 favorites]
The thing that should probably concern you, and Reddit itself, is not whether or not Ghislaine Maxwell was among the creeps who basically run Reddit, one of the world's most influential news sources, but that there are creeps like u/MaxwellHill in charge of such a large chunk of the internet's discourse… with basically no oversight!Which is a pretty good takeaway. Because earlier in it, this:
The topics the account does often wade into include — but are not limited to — the ages of sexual consent in various regions, the supposed overreach of sex offender laws, pedophilia, graphic violence against children, "over-zealous" child protection legislation, child psychology, and advocating for the legalization of child porn....already had me thinking that "In fairness, that particular creepspread probably could describe a whole bunch of Reddit's most prolific accounts" by way of the depressingly-usual squirming undersides of techno-libertarian rocks-in-head.
And the point can and should be zoomed out from reddit itself, and internet discourse itself, into just general media discourse: as things like BBC acting gormlessly Somehow An Interview Happened passive-voicing and so many umpty other examples of powerful men never being touched.
I really really hope this truly is a first step towards accountability for others, because my inner cynic needs no more feeding. Its larder is practically a hoarder situation as is.
posted by Drastic at 9:02 AM on December 30, 2021 [14 favorites]
"it doesn't matter whether anything we said about u/maxwellhill was actually true at all, because the person we chose to harass probably deserved it anyway."
No. And I've also seen what people online call "advocating for the legalization of child porn" and it can be something as innocuous as pointing out what the actual laws, or scientific evidence, says about these topics and not spreading baseless moral panic. So not inclined to buy this line of reasoning either.
posted by subdee at 9:06 AM on December 30, 2021
No. And I've also seen what people online call "advocating for the legalization of child porn" and it can be something as innocuous as pointing out what the actual laws, or scientific evidence, says about these topics and not spreading baseless moral panic. So not inclined to buy this line of reasoning either.
posted by subdee at 9:06 AM on December 30, 2021
It sure is a problem if he's being interviewed as a disinterested legal commentator about a case that is deeply intertwined with his former client!
Which I pointed out in the very first comment on this thread - the Beeb absolutely fucked up in presenting Dershowitz as a neutral analyst. But here's the thing - we need to separate lawyers defending the infamous, a task crucial for our legal system; with lawyers engaging in misconduct in doing so. The problem is not that Dershowitz represented Epstein - it's that he was happily willing to break the law to do so. And when we conflate the two issues, it harms the ability of defendants to secure counsel.
posted by NoxAeternum at 9:07 AM on December 30, 2021 [16 favorites]
Which I pointed out in the very first comment on this thread - the Beeb absolutely fucked up in presenting Dershowitz as a neutral analyst. But here's the thing - we need to separate lawyers defending the infamous, a task crucial for our legal system; with lawyers engaging in misconduct in doing so. The problem is not that Dershowitz represented Epstein - it's that he was happily willing to break the law to do so. And when we conflate the two issues, it harms the ability of defendants to secure counsel.
posted by NoxAeternum at 9:07 AM on December 30, 2021 [16 favorites]
Does anyone have any info on why the jury declined to convict on the sixth charge? Maxwell was acquitted on the charge of enticing a minor to travel to engage in illegal sex acts. Does anyone know how that charge differed from the five on which she was convicted?
posted by kristi at 10:41 AM on December 30, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by kristi at 10:41 AM on December 30, 2021 [1 favorite]
The Reddit thing is, from my very non-Reddit perspective, a little nuts.
Like, how far down the rabbit hole do you have to be that, when someone suggests that a power Reddit moderator who's spent the last fifteen years posting thousands of links and earning millions of karma points is also a 60-year old millionaire socialite, you're like 'yeah, that tracks'?
posted by box at 11:05 AM on December 30, 2021 [9 favorites]
Like, how far down the rabbit hole do you have to be that, when someone suggests that a power Reddit moderator who's spent the last fifteen years posting thousands of links and earning millions of karma points is also a 60-year old millionaire socialite, you're like 'yeah, that tracks'?
posted by box at 11:05 AM on December 30, 2021 [9 favorites]
Re: the reddit thing
Seems worth noting that the skeptical take linked above is from last July, just a few days after her arrest and the start of the theories. While it's now been 17 months, and that user still hasn't posted a single thing since Maxwell's arrest.
But another angle I have no idea about--just how often do Reddit users of comparable stature disappear from the site? Is it really an incredible coincidence, or are a dozen such users leaving every day...
posted by equalpants at 11:05 AM on December 30, 2021 [2 favorites]
Seems worth noting that the skeptical take linked above is from last July, just a few days after her arrest and the start of the theories. While it's now been 17 months, and that user still hasn't posted a single thing since Maxwell's arrest.
But another angle I have no idea about--just how often do Reddit users of comparable stature disappear from the site? Is it really an incredible coincidence, or are a dozen such users leaving every day...
posted by equalpants at 11:05 AM on December 30, 2021 [2 favorites]
On Dershowitz and the Beeb - the problem's not that he represented Epstein or his behaviour in doing so (well, OK, that is, but it's not the only one).
It's that he spent a chunk of the interview using it as a bully pulpit to discredit Victoria Giuffre and saying how the trial undermined her, without the BBC interviewer pointing out that he had been accused of sexual abuse by her and she had sued him for defamation, and he was in turn counter-suing her.
posted by reynir at 11:13 AM on December 30, 2021 [26 favorites]
It's that he spent a chunk of the interview using it as a bully pulpit to discredit Victoria Giuffre and saying how the trial undermined her, without the BBC interviewer pointing out that he had been accused of sexual abuse by her and she had sued him for defamation, and he was in turn counter-suing her.
posted by reynir at 11:13 AM on December 30, 2021 [26 favorites]
I'll be surprised if Maxwell isn't dead by the end of the week.
For what it's worth, she's survived in the MDC, a known hellhole, for like 500 days.
posted by BungaDunga at 11:28 AM on December 30, 2021 [1 favorite]
For what it's worth, she's survived in the MDC, a known hellhole, for like 500 days.
posted by BungaDunga at 11:28 AM on December 30, 2021 [1 favorite]
Eyebrows McGee: "Now do Prince Andrew"
At least make him sweat.
posted by chavenet at 11:36 AM on December 30, 2021 [16 favorites]
At least make him sweat.
posted by chavenet at 11:36 AM on December 30, 2021 [16 favorites]
It's that he spent a chunk of the interview using it as a bully pulpit to discredit Victoria Giuffre and saying how the trial undermined her, without the BBC interviewer pointing out that he had been accused of sexual abuse by her and she had sued him for defamation, and he was in turn counter-suing her.
Not to mention that Giuffre is suing Prince Andrew as well, which has become a diplomatic headache for the UK government. Not to mention the usual right wing ref working, which is ultimately the likliest reason the Dershbag was brought on. But you would think that they would realize that people would notice.
posted by NoxAeternum at 12:13 PM on December 30, 2021 [3 favorites]
Not to mention that Giuffre is suing Prince Andrew as well, which has become a diplomatic headache for the UK government. Not to mention the usual right wing ref working, which is ultimately the likliest reason the Dershbag was brought on. But you would think that they would realize that people would notice.
posted by NoxAeternum at 12:13 PM on December 30, 2021 [3 favorites]
Also, I'd bet Dersh shopped his routine to the Beeb in part because American newsrooms are finally wise to him.
posted by NoxAeternum at 12:15 PM on December 30, 2021 [2 favorites]
posted by NoxAeternum at 12:15 PM on December 30, 2021 [2 favorites]
And David Simon lays out how bad the Beeb's fuckup here is:
posted by NoxAeternum at 12:27 PM on December 30, 2021 [13 favorites]
Hate to be an old-timer who chirps about better days. But at my old paper, a disaster this raw and embarrassing required us to shoot a senior editor, burn the cadaver in a newsroom pyre, then mix the ashes with printer's ink and sent out in the home final as a warning to others.And to just hammer home the point, even Hannity's temp knew enough to disclose Dershowitz's connections before interviewing him.
posted by NoxAeternum at 12:27 PM on December 30, 2021 [13 favorites]
"Does anyone have any info on why the jury declined to convict on the sixth charge? Maxwell was acquitted on the charge of enticing a minor to travel to engage in illegal sex acts. Does anyone know how that charge differed from the five on which she was convicted?"
This charge was related to just one victim ("Jane") who did some "hedging" under cross-examination. (Not so much "hedging" but rather "memories from many years ago that are seriously complicated by massive trauma, that when the defense pressed her about specifics, she was hesitant to swear were 100% correct, as a great many of us would be.") Maxwell was convicted of conspiracy to entice, related to all four victims who testified, and she was convicted of actually transporting Jane.
Enticement can be more difficult to prove than "actually transported the person" (which they did find her guilty of) because of technical legal stuff, but I suspect the key issue here was the jury didn't find this individual count -- which had limited witness testimony supporting it, and testimony that reporters in the courtroom found a little shaky -- was proven beyond a reasonable doubt.
Again this does not in any way blame Jane or suggest she was lying or anything like that; testimony in sexual abuse cases is always tricky because of the trauma; testimony involving minors is always tricky because they were/are children; and testimony about things that happened many years ago is hard.
Also I assume some time in the next two weeks or so, one or more of the jurors will speak to the media about how they came to their decision, and we'll actually have some information on why they declined to convict on the sixth charge, and I could be wildly off-base. But just from court-watching, that's my guess.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 12:29 PM on December 30, 2021 [23 favorites]
This charge was related to just one victim ("Jane") who did some "hedging" under cross-examination. (Not so much "hedging" but rather "memories from many years ago that are seriously complicated by massive trauma, that when the defense pressed her about specifics, she was hesitant to swear were 100% correct, as a great many of us would be.") Maxwell was convicted of conspiracy to entice, related to all four victims who testified, and she was convicted of actually transporting Jane.
Enticement can be more difficult to prove than "actually transported the person" (which they did find her guilty of) because of technical legal stuff, but I suspect the key issue here was the jury didn't find this individual count -- which had limited witness testimony supporting it, and testimony that reporters in the courtroom found a little shaky -- was proven beyond a reasonable doubt.
Again this does not in any way blame Jane or suggest she was lying or anything like that; testimony in sexual abuse cases is always tricky because of the trauma; testimony involving minors is always tricky because they were/are children; and testimony about things that happened many years ago is hard.
Also I assume some time in the next two weeks or so, one or more of the jurors will speak to the media about how they came to their decision, and we'll actually have some information on why they declined to convict on the sixth charge, and I could be wildly off-base. But just from court-watching, that's my guess.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 12:29 PM on December 30, 2021 [23 favorites]
Thank you so much for that helpful info, Eyebrows.
Not that my opinion matters, but I have no problem with acquittal on that enticement charge; I am thankful to the witnesses, the prosecutors, and the jury for the five convictions that were delivered.
I'd just like to observe that it feels like our society, and prosecution of sexual assault, has come a very long way in the past decade or two:
* Changes to statutes of limitations now allow for prosecution of crimes that took place a long time ago, acknowledging how long it takes for abused children to be able to speak about what happened to them
* Prosecutors are more willing to prosecute horrific crimes even when the vast majority of the evidence is personal testimony - there was a time when cases based on conflicting testimony ("he said, she said") were considered unwinnable, but now more people are more willing to believe victims
The prosecution team publicly acknowledged the bravery of the four women who testified. Their tenacity and strength made a difference in the world today, and their brave actions - and the brave actions of the many young gymnasts who have spoken out, and the entire #MeToo movement - are bringing about a world where sexual assault can be prosecuted and punished.
Nothing could ever truly bring justice, but these five convictions are five steps toward protecting young people from future predators, and I am grateful to everyone who helped make that happen.
posted by kristi at 2:00 PM on December 30, 2021 [6 favorites]
Not that my opinion matters, but I have no problem with acquittal on that enticement charge; I am thankful to the witnesses, the prosecutors, and the jury for the five convictions that were delivered.
I'd just like to observe that it feels like our society, and prosecution of sexual assault, has come a very long way in the past decade or two:
* Changes to statutes of limitations now allow for prosecution of crimes that took place a long time ago, acknowledging how long it takes for abused children to be able to speak about what happened to them
* Prosecutors are more willing to prosecute horrific crimes even when the vast majority of the evidence is personal testimony - there was a time when cases based on conflicting testimony ("he said, she said") were considered unwinnable, but now more people are more willing to believe victims
The prosecution team publicly acknowledged the bravery of the four women who testified. Their tenacity and strength made a difference in the world today, and their brave actions - and the brave actions of the many young gymnasts who have spoken out, and the entire #MeToo movement - are bringing about a world where sexual assault can be prosecuted and punished.
Nothing could ever truly bring justice, but these five convictions are five steps toward protecting young people from future predators, and I am grateful to everyone who helped make that happen.
posted by kristi at 2:00 PM on December 30, 2021 [6 favorites]
I hope this is the beginning of justice and not the place that it stops - this was a machine with a lot more operators (and far more powerful ones) than just Maxwell. But America is really good at prosecuting women for evil actions (especially sexual ones) - we love a good witch hunt - but suddenly really "cautious about rushing to judgment" about those upstanding white male citizens. Watch for the news about this to concentrate on her and how much more awful she was in her role abetting Epstein than anyone else, while intentionally not mentioning any other people being sued -- there are a lot of people riding on her being the sacrificial lamb for everyone's sins.
posted by Mchelly at 3:05 PM on December 30, 2021 [5 favorites]
posted by Mchelly at 3:05 PM on December 30, 2021 [5 favorites]
Maxwell clearly deserves what is coming to her in terms of sentencing. but I'm pretty sure this will be the end of the road and nobody but her is ever going to be punished. Which I find totally repugnant and unfair to everyone.
Either Maxwell, having now been cast irrevocably as the evil behind the whole network, will conveniently 'suicide' and the whole saga will dwindle away for 'lack of evidence' now that the evil mastermind is gone, or she will simply clam up and say nothing to anyone for fear of suddenly finding she will have 'committed suicide' because she tries to take someone 'important' down with her.
Either way, her life is effectively over and, while that's not necessarily a bad thing, it means she will carry the entire blame for who knows how many men who used children to satisfy their sexual urges and, once again, the rich and powerful white men get away with whatever they want. By now, they will have found different sources for their playthings and can continue to rape with impunity.
posted by dg at 6:51 PM on December 30, 2021 [5 favorites]
Either Maxwell, having now been cast irrevocably as the evil behind the whole network, will conveniently 'suicide' and the whole saga will dwindle away for 'lack of evidence' now that the evil mastermind is gone, or she will simply clam up and say nothing to anyone for fear of suddenly finding she will have 'committed suicide' because she tries to take someone 'important' down with her.
Either way, her life is effectively over and, while that's not necessarily a bad thing, it means she will carry the entire blame for who knows how many men who used children to satisfy their sexual urges and, once again, the rich and powerful white men get away with whatever they want. By now, they will have found different sources for their playthings and can continue to rape with impunity.
posted by dg at 6:51 PM on December 30, 2021 [5 favorites]
all this quote/unquote suicide talk is a little overheated. she could come out tomorrow and accuse everyone from bill clinton to john paul II of sex crimes and it would be a two day news cycle. epstein was the fulcrum of the kompromat. whatever dirt he had on people that was incontrovertible was destroyed by him or others before he died. what is she going to say at this point that anyone would believe? she will quietly serve a sentence and die incarcerated of natural causes, as criminals like her deserve. and sadly the johns in this fucking nightmare like prince whatshisname get to walk free. i hope somehow justice reaches them too.
posted by wibari at 10:48 PM on December 30, 2021
posted by wibari at 10:48 PM on December 30, 2021
The wealthy and powerful, regardless of their formal politics, want to maintain the sexual availability of young teens. Epstein was helped from nowhere to incredible wealth because the upper classes wanted a reliable pimp. It's not exactly "getting away with" or "escaping justice"; it's a resilient system built to protect the users. Epstein was ultimately expendable, partly because he was not from an elite background. Maxwell has to be convicted to insure the stability of the system, although I doubt that she'll spend the rest of her life literally in prison. It's like convicting one cop of murder so that a hundred cops can murder and walk free - you have punish a miscreant occasionally or the peasants will burn down your castle, but that doesn't mean you stop abducting their daughters and beating them when they complain.
Somewhere the next Epstein is being helped along, or maybe he's already established and more discreet.
posted by Frowner at 7:01 AM on December 31, 2021 [5 favorites]
Somewhere the next Epstein is being helped along, or maybe he's already established and more discreet.
posted by Frowner at 7:01 AM on December 31, 2021 [5 favorites]
Not really on topic but this whole thing makes me wonder why Epstein did not have a dead man’s switch release of nuclear grade damaging evidence.
posted by drowsy at 8:05 PM on December 31, 2021
posted by drowsy at 8:05 PM on December 31, 2021
Not really on topic but this whole thing makes me wonder why Epstein did not have a dead man’s switch release of nuclear grade damaging evidence.
One of my big takeaways over the years has been that rich people can afford to be incredibly stupid, and thus, often are incredibly stupid.
Some possible reasons:
1. He lacked the technical knowledge. If his knowledge was as lacking as Maxwell's (trying to hide her phone signal with literal tinfoil), it's doubtful he would have known where to start.
2. He wasn't actually intending to blackmail anybody, ever, and really thought that this is just what rich people do. Just because he had video surveillance doesn't mean he actually ever saved anything incriminating. Quite possible that he shut off cameras or deleted evidence of criminal wrongdoing.
In other words, I think there's a distinct possibility that they just truly thought nothing would ever come around and stick to them, legally, regarding this, and lived accordingly, like they had nothing to worry about. Stupid, yes, but that's not really shocking to me when it comes to these out of touch rich shitheels.
If you have oodles of money, you can literally afford to fuck up constantly, which in turn makes you fucking stupider because you don't actually face real consequences, so you stop trying to not to fuck up because your fuck ups don't cause you as many problems. If you think you're untouchable, why would you even try to hide your crimes or be worried about blackmailing people?
posted by deadaluspark at 10:49 AM on January 1, 2022 [7 favorites]
One of my big takeaways over the years has been that rich people can afford to be incredibly stupid, and thus, often are incredibly stupid.
Some possible reasons:
1. He lacked the technical knowledge. If his knowledge was as lacking as Maxwell's (trying to hide her phone signal with literal tinfoil), it's doubtful he would have known where to start.
2. He wasn't actually intending to blackmail anybody, ever, and really thought that this is just what rich people do. Just because he had video surveillance doesn't mean he actually ever saved anything incriminating. Quite possible that he shut off cameras or deleted evidence of criminal wrongdoing.
In other words, I think there's a distinct possibility that they just truly thought nothing would ever come around and stick to them, legally, regarding this, and lived accordingly, like they had nothing to worry about. Stupid, yes, but that's not really shocking to me when it comes to these out of touch rich shitheels.
If you have oodles of money, you can literally afford to fuck up constantly, which in turn makes you fucking stupider because you don't actually face real consequences, so you stop trying to not to fuck up because your fuck ups don't cause you as many problems. If you think you're untouchable, why would you even try to hide your crimes or be worried about blackmailing people?
posted by deadaluspark at 10:49 AM on January 1, 2022 [7 favorites]
I've also seen what people online call "advocating for the legalization of child porn" and it can be something as innocuous as pointing out what the actual laws, or scientific evidence, says about these topics and not spreading baseless moral panic. So not inclined to buy this line of reasoning either.
If you read the article that Ampersand692 posted you can see for yourself that the user in question did, in fact, post a link to a blog post that advocated for the legalization of child porn.
posted by ultraviolet catastrophe at 11:46 AM on January 1, 2022
If you read the article that Ampersand692 posted you can see for yourself that the user in question did, in fact, post a link to a blog post that advocated for the legalization of child porn.
posted by ultraviolet catastrophe at 11:46 AM on January 1, 2022
What a horrible, and one imagines - completely disassociated and self-deluded, person.
What would 'justice' even mean in the context of this person?
posted by latkes at 11:52 AM on January 1, 2022
What would 'justice' even mean in the context of this person?
posted by latkes at 11:52 AM on January 1, 2022
One minor detail on the single charge she was acquitted of—it only had a maximum sentence of five years. Most of the rest have 25 year maximums, and the most serious one has a 40 year maximum. Since the sentences will be served concurrently, the acquittal will have zero impact on the final duration. That's certainly a good reason for the jurors to err on the side of reasonable doubt on that least serious charge.
(The usual disclaimer applies, do not consider those maximums when thinking about the actual sentence. It appears the federal sentencing guidelines will probably result in something in the 20-24 year range.)
posted by bcd at 2:40 PM on January 1, 2022
(The usual disclaimer applies, do not consider those maximums when thinking about the actual sentence. It appears the federal sentencing guidelines will probably result in something in the 20-24 year range.)
posted by bcd at 2:40 PM on January 1, 2022
wonder why Epstein did not have a dead man’s switch release of nuclear grade damaging evidence
Have there EVER been any real-world examples of dead man's switches actually working? Because this seems to me like some consipiracy wish-fulfillment fantasy movie/book plot BS.
Supposedly Assange and Wikileaks had/have them - but - are there others? (I have been searching and have turned-up nothing concrete, other than a request to research this very topic)
posted by rozcakj at 8:50 AM on January 4, 2022 [1 favorite]
Have there EVER been any real-world examples of dead man's switches actually working? Because this seems to me like some consipiracy wish-fulfillment fantasy movie/book plot BS.
Supposedly Assange and Wikileaks had/have them - but - are there others? (I have been searching and have turned-up nothing concrete, other than a request to research this very topic)
posted by rozcakj at 8:50 AM on January 4, 2022 [1 favorite]
So apparently two of the jurors have now revealed that they shared their own stories of sexual abuse during deliberations, and this is causing concern that this might end in a mistrial.
I'm trying to think how you could get any jury that doesn't have someone on it who has a history of sexual abuse.
posted by nubs at 3:36 PM on January 5, 2022 [2 favorites]
I'm trying to think how you could get any jury that doesn't have someone on it who has a history of sexual abuse.
posted by nubs at 3:36 PM on January 5, 2022 [2 favorites]
I'm trying to think about whether a jury that excludes anyone with a history of sexual abuse can continue to call itself, solemn-faced, a "jury of peers."
posted by sciatrix at 7:56 AM on January 6, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by sciatrix at 7:56 AM on January 6, 2022 [2 favorites]
"I'm trying to think how you could get any jury that doesn't have someone on it who has a history of sexual abuse."
Pretty sure they want to return to the 12-Angry-Men, all-white-male jury of yore.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 1:27 PM on January 6, 2022 [3 favorites]
Pretty sure they want to return to the 12-Angry-Men, all-white-male jury of yore.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 1:27 PM on January 6, 2022 [3 favorites]
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