The moral costs of dieting
January 3, 2022 3:11 PM Subscribe
"But if dieting is a practice that causes a great deal of harm — in the form of pain, suffering, anxiety and sheer hunger — and rarely works to deliver the health or happiness it has long advertised, then it is a morally bad practice. " [SL NYTimes, Archive link] [CW for discussion of dieting methods]
There's a bit somewhere in ??Joyce's short stories?? about how Irish young women don't any longer have the beautiful transparent complexions they did when they were more systematically undernourished.
More cheerfully, the epilogue to Jenny Crusie's anti-diet romance Bet Me mentions that the eventual daughters of a secondary romance are happy and win their hocky games because they get to eat.
posted by clew at 3:34 PM on January 3, 2022 [4 favorites]
More cheerfully, the epilogue to Jenny Crusie's anti-diet romance Bet Me mentions that the eventual daughters of a secondary romance are happy and win their hocky games because they get to eat.
posted by clew at 3:34 PM on January 3, 2022 [4 favorites]
There are basically three primary choices around eating: what to eat, when to eat, and how much to eat. Any modification of this pattern based on anything other than personal whim could be construed, in some sense, as dieting. So the question arises, where does "normal, healthy eating" end and "dieting" begin. It's hard to draw an obvious line.
If I skip eating bread and substitute broccoli for rice, am I "dieting?" If I fast for some part of the day, am I "dieting?" What if the goal is not weight loss but health or longevity or athletic performance?
Dr Manne raises some interesting questions, but I'm not sure if they have final answers.
posted by theorique at 4:20 PM on January 3, 2022 [16 favorites]
If I skip eating bread and substitute broccoli for rice, am I "dieting?" If I fast for some part of the day, am I "dieting?" What if the goal is not weight loss but health or longevity or athletic performance?
Dr Manne raises some interesting questions, but I'm not sure if they have final answers.
posted by theorique at 4:20 PM on January 3, 2022 [16 favorites]
Once "dieting" became a bad word, every diet program started claiming it wasn't a diet program.
I wanted to lose weight, and I was successful, but I never thought of myself as dieting. I think for me that was because I thought of the changes I made as permanent and I refused to weight or measure or count anything except for the one time I consulted with a nutritionist and she wanted a record of what I ate. (I did lots and lots of counting and weighing and measuring as a young person and never kept weight off doing that, and then I reached a point where I was just never going to do that again.) My experience should not be construed as any kind of advice or weight loss tip or saying it is easy or even possible for anyone else - I'm just saying that this is why I didn't think of it as dieting. But maybe it is dieting. I really don't know.
I didn't look at the comments on the article, but I would bet anything there are many that say that people just need to put down the donuts and take a walk, AND COMMENTS LIKE THAT MAKE ME SO ANGRY I COULD SCREAM.
The whole area is difficult. People who want to try to lose weight should be able to, and people who don't want to should be able to, and it should just be an individual decision that doesn't involve judging anyone. And body size should never be seen as a moral issue. And I've often thought about how much energy women I know, including me, have wasted by spending their whole lives thinking about diets and what those women could have done instead.
As I read in a magazine years ago, Jane Austen did not have buns of steel.
posted by FencingGal at 4:35 PM on January 3, 2022 [27 favorites]
I wanted to lose weight, and I was successful, but I never thought of myself as dieting. I think for me that was because I thought of the changes I made as permanent and I refused to weight or measure or count anything except for the one time I consulted with a nutritionist and she wanted a record of what I ate. (I did lots and lots of counting and weighing and measuring as a young person and never kept weight off doing that, and then I reached a point where I was just never going to do that again.) My experience should not be construed as any kind of advice or weight loss tip or saying it is easy or even possible for anyone else - I'm just saying that this is why I didn't think of it as dieting. But maybe it is dieting. I really don't know.
I didn't look at the comments on the article, but I would bet anything there are many that say that people just need to put down the donuts and take a walk, AND COMMENTS LIKE THAT MAKE ME SO ANGRY I COULD SCREAM.
The whole area is difficult. People who want to try to lose weight should be able to, and people who don't want to should be able to, and it should just be an individual decision that doesn't involve judging anyone. And body size should never be seen as a moral issue. And I've often thought about how much energy women I know, including me, have wasted by spending their whole lives thinking about diets and what those women could have done instead.
As I read in a magazine years ago, Jane Austen did not have buns of steel.
posted by FencingGal at 4:35 PM on January 3, 2022 [27 favorites]
There's a bit somewhere in ??Joyce's short stories?? about how Irish young women don't any longer have the beautiful transparent complexions they did when they were more systematically undernourished.
Now we can have full bellies AND glass skin!
(N/B please don't. That tends to be a sign of overexfoliation)
posted by cendawanita at 6:11 PM on January 3, 2022 [1 favorite]
Now we can have full bellies AND glass skin!
(N/B please don't. That tends to be a sign of overexfoliation)
posted by cendawanita at 6:11 PM on January 3, 2022 [1 favorite]
Paying attention what you eat and why you eat is “immoral?” If I feel sad or cranky and want to grab a spoon and a pint of Dulce de Leche, I know why I’m doing it. My emotions don’t have to dictate my actions, but I’m very aware when they do.
posted by Ideefixe at 6:47 PM on January 3, 2022 [6 favorites]
posted by Ideefixe at 6:47 PM on January 3, 2022 [6 favorites]
I thought this was good at picking apart assumptions, like, is weight gain truly about people just eating more, all of a sudden, or do factors like lack of sleep play a large role? Is it truly a risk in itself, or just something that may or may not be related to a risk?
Anyway, Maintenance Phase chases down a lot of weight loss myths and assumptions and the answers generally fall into three categories:
1. We don't know
2. We are extrapolating out from some very old, incomplete, and skewed data (BMI)
3. Sexism (and racism)
posted by emjaybee at 6:47 PM on January 3, 2022 [15 favorites]
Anyway, Maintenance Phase chases down a lot of weight loss myths and assumptions and the answers generally fall into three categories:
1. We don't know
2. We are extrapolating out from some very old, incomplete, and skewed data (BMI)
3. Sexism (and racism)
posted by emjaybee at 6:47 PM on January 3, 2022 [15 favorites]
Fencinggal, you can feel a little better-- I think it's standard for Opinions articles at the Times-- there is no comment section. I haven't looked for whether people are commenting elsewhere.
Now I'm wondering about metaphors for good arguments. I think I go with "solid".
I think a lot of her point is about pleasure and pain. For me, I don't think it's a diet in the bad sense to be careful about sugar and simple carbs. An amount that a lot of people can handle knocks me out, so there's a tradeoff there, but it's a fair tradeoff.
If dieting at a level which causes pain and misery gives back little or nothing, that's a different matter. And if we have a culture which just assumes that dieting is virtuous regardless of pain, it's a problem.
posted by Nancy Lebovitz at 7:00 PM on January 3, 2022 [2 favorites]
Now I'm wondering about metaphors for good arguments. I think I go with "solid".
I think a lot of her point is about pleasure and pain. For me, I don't think it's a diet in the bad sense to be careful about sugar and simple carbs. An amount that a lot of people can handle knocks me out, so there's a tradeoff there, but it's a fair tradeoff.
If dieting at a level which causes pain and misery gives back little or nothing, that's a different matter. And if we have a culture which just assumes that dieting is virtuous regardless of pain, it's a problem.
posted by Nancy Lebovitz at 7:00 PM on January 3, 2022 [2 favorites]
I drove about 12 miles for pastry today. If I had walked a mile for pastry, it would have been better.
posted by Oyéah at 7:08 PM on January 3, 2022 [3 favorites]
posted by Oyéah at 7:08 PM on January 3, 2022 [3 favorites]
Paying attention what you eat and why you eat is “immoral?”
Nowhere in the piece does she say or imply that, not even in the most oblique way, at least not that I can see. Can you point to what you’re responding to?
posted by holborne at 7:22 PM on January 3, 2022 [11 favorites]
Nowhere in the piece does she say or imply that, not even in the most oblique way, at least not that I can see. Can you point to what you’re responding to?
posted by holborne at 7:22 PM on January 3, 2022 [11 favorites]
If I had walked a mile for pastry, it would have been better.
Which immediately brought to mind the old slogan, "I'd walk a mile for a Camel."
posted by FencingGal at 7:25 PM on January 3, 2022 [1 favorite]
Which immediately brought to mind the old slogan, "I'd walk a mile for a Camel."
posted by FencingGal at 7:25 PM on January 3, 2022 [1 favorite]
I think she's right, but I also think the line of thinking here is ultimately unproductive. Entangling morality with what you eat is the wrong way to go; even entangling the morality of they way you think about what you eat is pretty ~ehh, given how much of decisionmaking around food is unconscious.
That's not even getting into how what you eat is determined by society, geography, economics, how you were raised, if you are abled / can cook for yourself, have a home to cook in, etc.
I keep coming back around to how morality is just... not the way to handle this. Especially after reading the article, you know? I'm worried about the article writer. You don't see a person in pain and say, "hey! immanuel kant has opinions about your self harm, so you better fucking not!!" It makes sense given her work that she thinks about it along the lines of philosophy, I'm just really uneasy about that approach, at least on an individual level.
posted by snerson at 7:51 PM on January 3, 2022 [6 favorites]
That's not even getting into how what you eat is determined by society, geography, economics, how you were raised, if you are abled / can cook for yourself, have a home to cook in, etc.
I keep coming back around to how morality is just... not the way to handle this. Especially after reading the article, you know? I'm worried about the article writer. You don't see a person in pain and say, "hey! immanuel kant has opinions about your self harm, so you better fucking not!!" It makes sense given her work that she thinks about it along the lines of philosophy, I'm just really uneasy about that approach, at least on an individual level.
posted by snerson at 7:51 PM on January 3, 2022 [6 favorites]
I’m not sure it’s actually immoral to harm one’s self.
posted by bq at 8:06 PM on January 3, 2022 [5 favorites]
posted by bq at 8:06 PM on January 3, 2022 [5 favorites]
Not directly on-topic, but related, and it's not worth a main post, so I'll put it here:
From my nutrition guru, farmer and food writer Tamar Haspel, 7 widely held food ideas that are wrong.
"1. OBESITY IS NOT A FUNCTION OF POVERTY.
2. MONEY WON’T MAKE PEOPLE EAT BETTER
3. FOOD DESERTS DON'T CAUSE CRAPPY DIETS, OR OBESITY
4. DIET SODA IS JUST FINE
5, LOCAL FOODS AREN’T BETTER FOR THE ENVIRONMENT
6. REVAMPING FARM SUBSIDIES WON’T MAKE JUNK FOOD EXPENSIVE AND GOOD FOOD CHEAP
7. A HEALTHY DIET FOR PEOPLE AND PLANET ISN’T VEGETABLES: Vegetables are a resource-intensive luxury food... it's grains & legumes FTW
The bonus truth: PROCESSED FOODS ARE THE ROOT OF CRAPPY DIETS & OBESITY. To change our diets, we have to change our food environment, especially the everywhereness of crap food. Who can make good choices when super tempting bad choices RIGHT THERE in your face 24/7?"
posted by Mr.Know-it-some at 8:18 PM on January 3, 2022 [5 favorites]
From my nutrition guru, farmer and food writer Tamar Haspel, 7 widely held food ideas that are wrong.
"1. OBESITY IS NOT A FUNCTION OF POVERTY.
2. MONEY WON’T MAKE PEOPLE EAT BETTER
3. FOOD DESERTS DON'T CAUSE CRAPPY DIETS, OR OBESITY
4. DIET SODA IS JUST FINE
5, LOCAL FOODS AREN’T BETTER FOR THE ENVIRONMENT
6. REVAMPING FARM SUBSIDIES WON’T MAKE JUNK FOOD EXPENSIVE AND GOOD FOOD CHEAP
7. A HEALTHY DIET FOR PEOPLE AND PLANET ISN’T VEGETABLES: Vegetables are a resource-intensive luxury food... it's grains & legumes FTW
The bonus truth: PROCESSED FOODS ARE THE ROOT OF CRAPPY DIETS & OBESITY. To change our diets, we have to change our food environment, especially the everywhereness of crap food. Who can make good choices when super tempting bad choices RIGHT THERE in your face 24/7?"
posted by Mr.Know-it-some at 8:18 PM on January 3, 2022 [5 favorites]
"I keep coming back around to how morality is just... not the way to handle this."
Yeah, here's the thing.
I am a fat middle-aged woman. In my late 20s, having changed basically nothing about my diet or lifestyle, I started gaining a LOT of weight. I fought to keep it off, but it kept coming. Conveniently, I spent nearly all of my 30s either pregnant or breastfeeding, so medical commentary on my weight was limited, but mostly, "Well, you're pregnant; the weight will come off once you're breastfeeding" or "You're probably eating too much because breastfeeding makes you so hungry, if you eat less, it should melt off." The fact that I had super-dire hyperemesis gravidarum and could barely keep food down but KEPT GAINING WEIGHT registered with no one as a problem. I mean, EXTENSIVE diaries of everything I ate, how often I threw up, how soon after I ate I threw up, and they had all the data on what I weighed. They watched me vomit in the ob/gyn's office! A bunch! I was hospitalized several times for IV rehydration! Fetuses were healthy, so, shrug.
I was 40? 41? when I weaned my last child. And I had more energy, and I was less-hungry, and moving around more, but the weight came on FASTER than before. I talked to my GP. Got told to eat less and exercise more, and had my thyroid function tested (normal). Tried to exercise; kept collapsing in dire asthma attacks. Got prescribed albuterol, which made me sick and didn't help. Got referred to another doctor, allegedly a specialist in nutrition for post-partum women, which my insurance required for me to get a $600 discount. Told him I was really distressed about the weight gain and the scary asthma attacks.
He sternly told me it was my own fault for eating too much and not exercising enough. He told me to be less self-indulgent. I cried. He told me to stop crying and take care of myself, it wasn't hard, and it was my own fault. He said, work out harder, use your inhaler. I told him the inhaler didn't make it easier to breathe, it just made me feel sick. He said that was because I was so lazy my body wasn't used to exercise. Ordered me back in four weeks. I gave it my best shot.
Four weeks later, I had gained more weight. He said, "You have to stop eating added sugar." I said, "I don't eat added sugar." (I don't -- I have a salt tooth, but not a sweet tooth. I make my own salad dressing because storebought is too sweet, and I stopped eating storebought bread because it tastes like sugar.) He rolled his eyes and said, "Well you have to stop eating white carbs!" I said, "I don't! We only buy whole grains! Very occasionally I have French bread, but I grew up eating whole grains, and we hardly ever buy white carbs!" Then he got mad and snapped, "If you're going to lie to me about your diet, I can't help you!" Gave him my food diary. He told me it couldn't possibly be true, and anyway, I should eat more fish. I told him that I do not eat fish. He got REALLY mad and said (this is a direct quote because it's the most absurd thing I've ever heard someone say), "Look, I can't help you lose weight until you lose weight! Come back when you've lost some weight! Get serious!"
THREE AND A HALF YEARS LATER, I ended up hospitalized (during Covid!) after a bunch of drama and misdiagnosis. I spent FOUR STRAIGHT HOURS in an MRI machine, which, I am not bothered by MRI machines, but four hours is a LOT. Had a TON of labs run on all my bodily functions. The hospitalist had a hunch -- something she'd seen before -- and ordered some extra bloodwork.
So, it turns out I have pernicious anemia, which is (usually, and is in my case) an autoimmune disorder where the immune system attacks the digestive system stuff that allows you to absorb B12, which you cannot manufacture on your own but must absorb from food, and which you require for normal function of ... basically all the things. But super-crucially for my story, it causes breathlessness (NOT ASTHMA) because your body can't carry enough oxygen -- as well as tiredness, headaches, tinnitus, feeling cold all the time, and a bunch of other stuff. There is emerging literature about weight loss AND weight gain with pernicious anemia, tied to various metabolic dysfunctions that may be caused by the same thing that causes the autoimmune problem. But also there may be weight loss or gain tied to the body attempting to compensate for feeling shitty by wanting to eat less or more.
Anyway, by the time I was diagnosed, I was having neurological symptoms, which is Very Bad, and is literally the only reason I was diagnosed, because it's very hard to get doctors to pay attention to a 40-year-old mother's body functioning VERY WRONG until there are neurological problems. My neurologist thinks that since I was on prenatal vitamins throughout my entire 30s, either for pregnancy or breastfeeding, I successfully masked -- but did not treat! -- the pernicious anemia, since prenatal vitamins have a ton of B vitamins to prevent spinal cord defects in fetuses. (And you just keep taking the same vitamins while breastfeeding.) If someone had taken a moment to find out why the albuterol inhaler made me feel nauseated without relieving my breathlessness, we might have gotten a diagnosis earlier. If someone had treated my food diaries as legit, or had run a more complete set of bloodwork when my body was not matching my lifestyle, we might have gotten a diagnosis earlier.
But no, every doctor kept telling me I was lazy, I had no self-control, and if I was virtuous, I would lose weight. And if I wasn't losing weight, it was because I was lazy or lying. It took ten YEARS of moral judgment from doctors, and ten weeks of significant disability (I couldn't sit up) followed by hospitalization to find the actual problem ... and then only because the hospitalist had a hunch.
(Now I take ULTRA high-dose B vitamins -- so high I have a prescription -- and pee extremely fluorescent yellow. Which is like the best-case scenario for an auto-immune disorder? And definitely the best-case scenario for having neurological symptoms in your 40s! But also B vitamins smell hella bad in pill form. Honestly can't tell you how much better going for a walk is when you can carry oxygen to your extremities.)
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 9:22 PM on January 3, 2022 [131 favorites]
Yeah, here's the thing.
I am a fat middle-aged woman. In my late 20s, having changed basically nothing about my diet or lifestyle, I started gaining a LOT of weight. I fought to keep it off, but it kept coming. Conveniently, I spent nearly all of my 30s either pregnant or breastfeeding, so medical commentary on my weight was limited, but mostly, "Well, you're pregnant; the weight will come off once you're breastfeeding" or "You're probably eating too much because breastfeeding makes you so hungry, if you eat less, it should melt off." The fact that I had super-dire hyperemesis gravidarum and could barely keep food down but KEPT GAINING WEIGHT registered with no one as a problem. I mean, EXTENSIVE diaries of everything I ate, how often I threw up, how soon after I ate I threw up, and they had all the data on what I weighed. They watched me vomit in the ob/gyn's office! A bunch! I was hospitalized several times for IV rehydration! Fetuses were healthy, so, shrug.
I was 40? 41? when I weaned my last child. And I had more energy, and I was less-hungry, and moving around more, but the weight came on FASTER than before. I talked to my GP. Got told to eat less and exercise more, and had my thyroid function tested (normal). Tried to exercise; kept collapsing in dire asthma attacks. Got prescribed albuterol, which made me sick and didn't help. Got referred to another doctor, allegedly a specialist in nutrition for post-partum women, which my insurance required for me to get a $600 discount. Told him I was really distressed about the weight gain and the scary asthma attacks.
He sternly told me it was my own fault for eating too much and not exercising enough. He told me to be less self-indulgent. I cried. He told me to stop crying and take care of myself, it wasn't hard, and it was my own fault. He said, work out harder, use your inhaler. I told him the inhaler didn't make it easier to breathe, it just made me feel sick. He said that was because I was so lazy my body wasn't used to exercise. Ordered me back in four weeks. I gave it my best shot.
Four weeks later, I had gained more weight. He said, "You have to stop eating added sugar." I said, "I don't eat added sugar." (I don't -- I have a salt tooth, but not a sweet tooth. I make my own salad dressing because storebought is too sweet, and I stopped eating storebought bread because it tastes like sugar.) He rolled his eyes and said, "Well you have to stop eating white carbs!" I said, "I don't! We only buy whole grains! Very occasionally I have French bread, but I grew up eating whole grains, and we hardly ever buy white carbs!" Then he got mad and snapped, "If you're going to lie to me about your diet, I can't help you!" Gave him my food diary. He told me it couldn't possibly be true, and anyway, I should eat more fish. I told him that I do not eat fish. He got REALLY mad and said (this is a direct quote because it's the most absurd thing I've ever heard someone say), "Look, I can't help you lose weight until you lose weight! Come back when you've lost some weight! Get serious!"
THREE AND A HALF YEARS LATER, I ended up hospitalized (during Covid!) after a bunch of drama and misdiagnosis. I spent FOUR STRAIGHT HOURS in an MRI machine, which, I am not bothered by MRI machines, but four hours is a LOT. Had a TON of labs run on all my bodily functions. The hospitalist had a hunch -- something she'd seen before -- and ordered some extra bloodwork.
So, it turns out I have pernicious anemia, which is (usually, and is in my case) an autoimmune disorder where the immune system attacks the digestive system stuff that allows you to absorb B12, which you cannot manufacture on your own but must absorb from food, and which you require for normal function of ... basically all the things. But super-crucially for my story, it causes breathlessness (NOT ASTHMA) because your body can't carry enough oxygen -- as well as tiredness, headaches, tinnitus, feeling cold all the time, and a bunch of other stuff. There is emerging literature about weight loss AND weight gain with pernicious anemia, tied to various metabolic dysfunctions that may be caused by the same thing that causes the autoimmune problem. But also there may be weight loss or gain tied to the body attempting to compensate for feeling shitty by wanting to eat less or more.
Anyway, by the time I was diagnosed, I was having neurological symptoms, which is Very Bad, and is literally the only reason I was diagnosed, because it's very hard to get doctors to pay attention to a 40-year-old mother's body functioning VERY WRONG until there are neurological problems. My neurologist thinks that since I was on prenatal vitamins throughout my entire 30s, either for pregnancy or breastfeeding, I successfully masked -- but did not treat! -- the pernicious anemia, since prenatal vitamins have a ton of B vitamins to prevent spinal cord defects in fetuses. (And you just keep taking the same vitamins while breastfeeding.) If someone had taken a moment to find out why the albuterol inhaler made me feel nauseated without relieving my breathlessness, we might have gotten a diagnosis earlier. If someone had treated my food diaries as legit, or had run a more complete set of bloodwork when my body was not matching my lifestyle, we might have gotten a diagnosis earlier.
But no, every doctor kept telling me I was lazy, I had no self-control, and if I was virtuous, I would lose weight. And if I wasn't losing weight, it was because I was lazy or lying. It took ten YEARS of moral judgment from doctors, and ten weeks of significant disability (I couldn't sit up) followed by hospitalization to find the actual problem ... and then only because the hospitalist had a hunch.
(Now I take ULTRA high-dose B vitamins -- so high I have a prescription -- and pee extremely fluorescent yellow. Which is like the best-case scenario for an auto-immune disorder? And definitely the best-case scenario for having neurological symptoms in your 40s! But also B vitamins smell hella bad in pill form. Honestly can't tell you how much better going for a walk is when you can carry oxygen to your extremities.)
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 9:22 PM on January 3, 2022 [131 favorites]
@Eyebrows McGee, Did you decide to go back to those fuck knuckle doctors and tell them that no thanks to them you were diagnosed correctly? Because the treatment you experienced, sad to say, is not uncommon.
Sometimes, when I think about dieting and unravel all the moral panic on being overweight, I just keep envisioning one of the Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse, Famine, wearing lycra and toting a pile of books with the word, "diet" on them in the one hand and in the other a no-calorie frappuccino.
posted by jadepearl at 9:46 PM on January 3, 2022 [5 favorites]
Sometimes, when I think about dieting and unravel all the moral panic on being overweight, I just keep envisioning one of the Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse, Famine, wearing lycra and toting a pile of books with the word, "diet" on them in the one hand and in the other a no-calorie frappuccino.
posted by jadepearl at 9:46 PM on January 3, 2022 [5 favorites]
jadedpearl, you and Terry Pratchett (and yeah, Gaiman) definitely share the same idea. That's their Famine in Good Omens, iirc, though I've never seen the show.
posted by cendawanita at 11:03 PM on January 3, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by cendawanita at 11:03 PM on January 3, 2022 [2 favorites]
Eyebrows, I just got diagnosed with a B12 deficiency as well, although it only took a year or so of weird nervous system problems (and at least three different specialist physicians who told me everything I was experiencing was a normal part of aging with no outside cause). Thank jebus for my gp who was willing to keep listening to me and investigate after I kept getting rebuffed by the specialists. And to my white male privilege for enabling me to navigate the system and insist on further testing. :/ apologies for the thread derail.
posted by Dokterrock at 11:28 PM on January 3, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by Dokterrock at 11:28 PM on January 3, 2022 [1 favorite]
If I remember correctly, Nancy Springer's Apocalypse also has Famine as an anorexic woman-- it's four horsewomen.
posted by Nancy Lebovitz at 11:34 PM on January 3, 2022
posted by Nancy Lebovitz at 11:34 PM on January 3, 2022
I have pernicious anemia too, Eyebrows (and Dokterrock!).
It’s interesting that your PA resulted in "ten weeks of significant disability" right before hospitalization and ultimate diagnosis, because my partner and I recognized that something was seriously wrong when I couldn’t finish one helping of Thanksgiving dinner instead of the usual 3 or 4, and by early January I couldn’t eat anything at all without throwing up immediately, and was subsisting on nothing but glucose pills and water. I am very doctor resistant, but my will power ebbed enough for my partner and most recent ex to gang up on me and get me to the doctor by Valentine's Day, and at that point I had lost 65 pounds since Thanksgiving.
The doctor, a very sharp woman of Thai descent, could see that something was wrong because I was whiter than cooked filet of Sole, and took a blood sample at the beginning of the visit. She hadn’t come up with a firm diagnosis by the end of the appointment, but as my partner and I were getting in our car, a side door in the medical building burst open and my doctor emerged waving a sheaf of papers over her head and screaming "Blood! Blood! You have no Blood!" as she ran toward us across the parking lot. After literally crashing into me and knocking me off my feet into the passenger seat of our car, she insisted I sign a medical release or she would call an ambulance and have me taken to the hospital involuntarily, even though we promised her we would drive straight there.
It turned out I had a hematocrit of 10, and when I was finally in the ICU of a nearby hospital getting a transfusion, after waiting more than two hours lying on a gurney completely by myself in a very cold room, despite a frantic call from my doctor to the ER as we were driving over, the senior ICU nurse came in to tell me that the previous low hematocrit they'd seen was a 17 more than a decade before, and that '10 isn’t really compatible with life.'
My hematologist told me he’d had patients with more than double my hematocrit who’d never gotten back up out of their wheelchairs.
I’d been diagnosed with celiac disease more than a decade before that, and the hematologist said celiac disease seems to be a predisposing factor for PA.
I take large oral doses of B12 as well, but mine are OTC supplements made by Jarrow: two sublingual 5000 mcg pills once a day during every third week. They don’t smell at all and actually taste good, but the rest of the B family is a very different story.
I’d be interested in hearing whether you have antibodies to both the parietal cells in the stomach which produce the B12 receptor protein and antibodies to the receptor protein itself as I do, or one or the other, which I got the impression is more common.
posted by jamjam at 11:58 PM on January 3, 2022 [18 favorites]
It’s interesting that your PA resulted in "ten weeks of significant disability" right before hospitalization and ultimate diagnosis, because my partner and I recognized that something was seriously wrong when I couldn’t finish one helping of Thanksgiving dinner instead of the usual 3 or 4, and by early January I couldn’t eat anything at all without throwing up immediately, and was subsisting on nothing but glucose pills and water. I am very doctor resistant, but my will power ebbed enough for my partner and most recent ex to gang up on me and get me to the doctor by Valentine's Day, and at that point I had lost 65 pounds since Thanksgiving.
The doctor, a very sharp woman of Thai descent, could see that something was wrong because I was whiter than cooked filet of Sole, and took a blood sample at the beginning of the visit. She hadn’t come up with a firm diagnosis by the end of the appointment, but as my partner and I were getting in our car, a side door in the medical building burst open and my doctor emerged waving a sheaf of papers over her head and screaming "Blood! Blood! You have no Blood!" as she ran toward us across the parking lot. After literally crashing into me and knocking me off my feet into the passenger seat of our car, she insisted I sign a medical release or she would call an ambulance and have me taken to the hospital involuntarily, even though we promised her we would drive straight there.
It turned out I had a hematocrit of 10, and when I was finally in the ICU of a nearby hospital getting a transfusion, after waiting more than two hours lying on a gurney completely by myself in a very cold room, despite a frantic call from my doctor to the ER as we were driving over, the senior ICU nurse came in to tell me that the previous low hematocrit they'd seen was a 17 more than a decade before, and that '10 isn’t really compatible with life.'
My hematologist told me he’d had patients with more than double my hematocrit who’d never gotten back up out of their wheelchairs.
I’d been diagnosed with celiac disease more than a decade before that, and the hematologist said celiac disease seems to be a predisposing factor for PA.
I take large oral doses of B12 as well, but mine are OTC supplements made by Jarrow: two sublingual 5000 mcg pills once a day during every third week. They don’t smell at all and actually taste good, but the rest of the B family is a very different story.
I’d be interested in hearing whether you have antibodies to both the parietal cells in the stomach which produce the B12 receptor protein and antibodies to the receptor protein itself as I do, or one or the other, which I got the impression is more common.
posted by jamjam at 11:58 PM on January 3, 2022 [18 favorites]
From my nutrition guru, farmer and food writer Tamar Haspel, 7 widely held food ideas that are wrong.
"1. OBESITY IS NOT A FUNCTION OF POVERTY...
I'm confused. Is he saying that "obesity is not a function of poverty" is a widely held idea and wrong? Or that obesity being a function of poverty is a widely held but wrong idea? There are way too many double negatives going on for me to parse what this list is intended to mean.
posted by Dysk at 2:46 AM on January 4, 2022 [7 favorites]
"1. OBESITY IS NOT A FUNCTION OF POVERTY...
I'm confused. Is he saying that "obesity is not a function of poverty" is a widely held idea and wrong? Or that obesity being a function of poverty is a widely held but wrong idea? There are way too many double negatives going on for me to parse what this list is intended to mean.
posted by Dysk at 2:46 AM on January 4, 2022 [7 favorites]
> "1. OBESITY IS NOT A FUNCTION OF POVERTY...
> I'm confused. Is he saying that "obesity is not a function of poverty"
> is a widely held idea and wrong?
I too was confused for the same reason. Following the links to the original tweets clarifies and provides supporting explanations and citations. Spoiler: the items as listed are the truths (e.g. this asserts that obesity is not a function of poverty).
posted by merlynkline at 3:24 AM on January 4, 2022 [4 favorites]
> I'm confused. Is he saying that "obesity is not a function of poverty"
> is a widely held idea and wrong?
I too was confused for the same reason. Following the links to the original tweets clarifies and provides supporting explanations and citations. Spoiler: the items as listed are the truths (e.g. this asserts that obesity is not a function of poverty).
posted by merlynkline at 3:24 AM on January 4, 2022 [4 favorites]
>> 1. OBESITY IS NOT A FUNCTION OF POVERTY..
Yeah lol I was extremely confused by it as well. WTF were they thinking, making an all-caps list of definitive declarative statements .... as myths?? Or something?
posted by MiraK at 5:51 AM on January 4, 2022
Yeah lol I was extremely confused by it as well. WTF were they thinking, making an all-caps list of definitive declarative statements .... as myths?? Or something?
posted by MiraK at 5:51 AM on January 4, 2022
I too was confused for the same reason.
Add me to that list ...
4. DIET SODA IS JUST FINE
I also misread this as a claim that the above point (as well as the rest of the seven) were NOT true.
I was prepared to post angry rebuttals and claims that you could pry my Mountain Dew Zero from my cold, dead fingers. I'm glad these were posted as "unlikely truths" rather than false claims. Yes, it's early morning in my location and the caffeine has not yet kicked in.
(The only one I don't like is the vegetables one: being one of those weird low-carb types, I actually really like eating a lot of non-starchy vegetables with a lot of salt and fat.)
posted by theorique at 5:54 AM on January 4, 2022
Add me to that list ...
4. DIET SODA IS JUST FINE
I also misread this as a claim that the above point (as well as the rest of the seven) were NOT true.
I was prepared to post angry rebuttals and claims that you could pry my Mountain Dew Zero from my cold, dead fingers. I'm glad these were posted as "unlikely truths" rather than false claims. Yes, it's early morning in my location and the caffeine has not yet kicked in.
(The only one I don't like is the vegetables one: being one of those weird low-carb types, I actually really like eating a lot of non-starchy vegetables with a lot of salt and fat.)
posted by theorique at 5:54 AM on January 4, 2022
LOCAL FOODS AREN’T BETTER FOR THE ENVIRONMENT
I've been trying to grok how at 5-10% reduction in greenhouse gas emissions from food is not better for the environment.
posted by Press Butt.on to Check at 6:04 AM on January 4, 2022 [9 favorites]
I've been trying to grok how at 5-10% reduction in greenhouse gas emissions from food is not better for the environment.
posted by Press Butt.on to Check at 6:04 AM on January 4, 2022 [9 favorites]
BTW many of the "surprising truths" on that all caps list are total bullshit.
Take for instance this:
> 2. MONEY WON’T MAKE PEOPLE EAT BETTER
> .... Lots of nutritious food is cheap, but most people like hot dogs better than lentils.
Are you fucking kidding me? This person doesn't see the difference between a hot dog that can be nuked for 30 seconds to be eaten, vs. a bag of raw lentils that need 2 hours' cooking, a whole host of extra ingredients, plus access to a stove and cooking utensils to make them edible.
They link to a supporting WP article which says, as its thesis statement, "An ordinary supermarket ... offers a variety of affordably priced calories to meet the daunting challenge of making your daily menu come in at under $4 per person, the average benefit under the Supplemental Nutrition Assistance Program, informally referred to as food stamps. .... The healthful meals you can make at a price point that competes with ramen are anchored by rice, beans and whole grains. And ... you can combine those with foods that cost a bit more, such as chicken thighs (13 cents), sweet potatoes (38 cents), carrots (30 cents), frozen corn (25 cents), walnuts (30 cents), yogurt (36 cents) or frozen broccoli (63 cents), and eat pretty well for under $4 per day."
It's quite redundant to note that the person who wrote up this bunch of pronouncements on twitter is a straight white cis upper-middle-class boomer. 🤷🏾 Just saying, nobody is surprised to learn that.
posted by MiraK at 6:17 AM on January 4, 2022 [17 favorites]
Take for instance this:
> 2. MONEY WON’T MAKE PEOPLE EAT BETTER
> .... Lots of nutritious food is cheap, but most people like hot dogs better than lentils.
Are you fucking kidding me? This person doesn't see the difference between a hot dog that can be nuked for 30 seconds to be eaten, vs. a bag of raw lentils that need 2 hours' cooking, a whole host of extra ingredients, plus access to a stove and cooking utensils to make them edible.
They link to a supporting WP article which says, as its thesis statement, "An ordinary supermarket ... offers a variety of affordably priced calories to meet the daunting challenge of making your daily menu come in at under $4 per person, the average benefit under the Supplemental Nutrition Assistance Program, informally referred to as food stamps. .... The healthful meals you can make at a price point that competes with ramen are anchored by rice, beans and whole grains. And ... you can combine those with foods that cost a bit more, such as chicken thighs (13 cents), sweet potatoes (38 cents), carrots (30 cents), frozen corn (25 cents), walnuts (30 cents), yogurt (36 cents) or frozen broccoli (63 cents), and eat pretty well for under $4 per day."
It's quite redundant to note that the person who wrote up this bunch of pronouncements on twitter is a straight white cis upper-middle-class boomer. 🤷🏾 Just saying, nobody is surprised to learn that.
posted by MiraK at 6:17 AM on January 4, 2022 [17 favorites]
This person doesn't see the difference between a hot dog that can be nuked for 30 seconds to be eaten, vs. a bag of raw lentils that need 2 hours' cooking, a whole host of extra ingredients, plus access to a stove and cooking utensils to make them edible.
There's a tweet for everything. She also wrote: "Here's the thing about home cooking.
➡️ It usually ends up being women's work
➡️ Most people don't like to do it
➡️ It's the only chore most people can afford to offload
➡️ It takes time, skill, & resources
BUT
➡️ It's really hard to eat well if you don't do it"
posted by Mr.Know-it-some at 6:27 AM on January 4, 2022 [2 favorites]
There's a tweet for everything. She also wrote: "Here's the thing about home cooking.
➡️ It usually ends up being women's work
➡️ Most people don't like to do it
➡️ It's the only chore most people can afford to offload
➡️ It takes time, skill, & resources
BUT
➡️ It's really hard to eat well if you don't do it"
posted by Mr.Know-it-some at 6:27 AM on January 4, 2022 [2 favorites]
Oh this is great, that twitter thread writer Tamar Haspel is literally funded by agrichemical corporations and, understandably, has a long track record of pro-pesticide, pro-monsanto "journalism".
posted by MiraK at 6:29 AM on January 4, 2022 [7 favorites]
posted by MiraK at 6:29 AM on January 4, 2022 [7 favorites]
Yeah, that Twitter thread feels hilariously (given the FPP) "Stop making excuses and acknowledge that your fat is your fault, you lazy, gluttonous cow" moralistic.
posted by thivaia at 6:34 AM on January 4, 2022 [7 favorites]
posted by thivaia at 6:34 AM on January 4, 2022 [7 favorites]
Nitpick alert: MiraK, lentils take about half an hour.
I fully grant that fast food is faster, and a lot of people don't have the time or inclination for home cooking. Also, that cooking time is not major compared to learning, meal planning, shopping, and cleaning up.
posted by Nancy Lebovitz at 6:36 AM on January 4, 2022
I fully grant that fast food is faster, and a lot of people don't have the time or inclination for home cooking. Also, that cooking time is not major compared to learning, meal planning, shopping, and cleaning up.
posted by Nancy Lebovitz at 6:36 AM on January 4, 2022
Are you fucking kidding me? This person doesn't see the difference between a hot dog that can be nuked for 30 seconds to be eaten, vs. a bag of raw lentils that need 2 hours' cooking, a whole host of extra ingredients, plus access to a stove and cooking utensils to make them edible.
I made a similar argument here a couple years ago and it did not go well lol
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 6:36 AM on January 4, 2022 [8 favorites]
I made a similar argument here a couple years ago and it did not go well lol
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 6:36 AM on January 4, 2022 [8 favorites]
>> "Here's the thing about home cooking ....
➡️ It takes time, skill, & resources
BUT
➡️ It's really hard to eat well if you don't do it"
So ... how can the same person also claim that having more money doesn't help people eat better?? Isn't that a contradiction in terms?
But wait! She also says:
>> ➡️ It usually ends up being women's work
So I guess she's really pro-patriarchy??? Is that what allows her to claim so brashly that having more money doesn't make people eat better - all you need is an enslaved woman to do it for you.
posted by MiraK at 6:42 AM on January 4, 2022
➡️ It takes time, skill, & resources
BUT
➡️ It's really hard to eat well if you don't do it"
So ... how can the same person also claim that having more money doesn't help people eat better?? Isn't that a contradiction in terms?
But wait! She also says:
>> ➡️ It usually ends up being women's work
So I guess she's really pro-patriarchy??? Is that what allows her to claim so brashly that having more money doesn't make people eat better - all you need is an enslaved woman to do it for you.
posted by MiraK at 6:42 AM on January 4, 2022
> Nitpick alert: MiraK, lentils take about half an hour
I'll pick that nit right back atcha, Nancy, which lentils are you talking about? Me, I hail from the land of a thousand lentils, have always eaten a lentil-heavy vegetarian cuisine -- and imo the only ones worth eating are the ones you cook for 8 hours in a slow cooker, or ferment with rice for three days before grinding into batter for pancakes.
posted by MiraK at 6:43 AM on January 4, 2022 [5 favorites]
I'll pick that nit right back atcha, Nancy, which lentils are you talking about? Me, I hail from the land of a thousand lentils, have always eaten a lentil-heavy vegetarian cuisine -- and imo the only ones worth eating are the ones you cook for 8 hours in a slow cooker, or ferment with rice for three days before grinding into batter for pancakes.
posted by MiraK at 6:43 AM on January 4, 2022 [5 favorites]
Mirak, if you want to tell me about excellent lentils, I'm interested.
My experience is that I buy them dry and cook them for about half an hour, and I like the results.
posted by Nancy Lebovitz at 7:01 AM on January 4, 2022 [2 favorites]
My experience is that I buy them dry and cook them for about half an hour, and I like the results.
posted by Nancy Lebovitz at 7:01 AM on January 4, 2022 [2 favorites]
3 week hand-polished lentils or GTFO
posted by wemayfreeze at 7:02 AM on January 4, 2022 [15 favorites]
posted by wemayfreeze at 7:02 AM on January 4, 2022 [15 favorites]
Best lentils ever: Dal makhani (this version recommends pressure cooking lentils for a much shorter duration, but I still think slow-cooking for 8 hours is where it's at!)
Best lentil-containing recipe ever: Dose (proportion and type of lentils are both very flexible, I usually go 50-50 on mixed lentils and rice).
posted by MiraK at 7:09 AM on January 4, 2022 [9 favorites]
Best lentil-containing recipe ever: Dose (proportion and type of lentils are both very flexible, I usually go 50-50 on mixed lentils and rice).
posted by MiraK at 7:09 AM on January 4, 2022 [9 favorites]
2. MONEY WON’T MAKE PEOPLE EAT BETTER
The Australian poop study disagrees with this, finding higher income areas definitely eat more fiber and citrus. And reading the linked article from that twitter thread I don't find the argument that flour is cheaper than junk food and therefore price isn't the determiner of health convincing.
posted by ockmockbock at 7:18 AM on January 4, 2022 [8 favorites]
I almost died from severe anemia (caused in my case by bone marrow cancer) because, as a fat person, I was profiled as having heart disease (I was extremely out of breath and had a bunch of other symptoms). The cardiologist who said it could be anemia and actually did a blood test said I was lucky I didn't die from the stress test the other docs had ordered. He had a concierge practice. I had heard him on a podcast, paid $500 out of pocket to see him, and it saved my life. Sadly, he's been bonkers about COVID.
Before someone decided I must have heart disease, I was told to increase my Vitamin D (because I had a respiratory infection for two months) and given eardrops (because severe anemia causes whooshing in the ears), all without a simple blood test that would have immediately let anyone know I was in trouble. Once the test was actually done and the results came back (4.3 hemoglobin), it was treated as a medical emergency. Not to mention that my cancer could have been diagnosed at an earlier stage.
There used to be a website dedicated to stories of people who died because they were given bad medical treatment due to their weight. I think it was called something like "a place at the table."
posted by FencingGal at 7:21 AM on January 4, 2022 [17 favorites]
Before someone decided I must have heart disease, I was told to increase my Vitamin D (because I had a respiratory infection for two months) and given eardrops (because severe anemia causes whooshing in the ears), all without a simple blood test that would have immediately let anyone know I was in trouble. Once the test was actually done and the results came back (4.3 hemoglobin), it was treated as a medical emergency. Not to mention that my cancer could have been diagnosed at an earlier stage.
There used to be a website dedicated to stories of people who died because they were given bad medical treatment due to their weight. I think it was called something like "a place at the table."
posted by FencingGal at 7:21 AM on January 4, 2022 [17 favorites]
a hot dog that can be nuked for 30 seconds to be eaten
This takes me back to when I was a little kid and microwaves were not widely in use and to cook hot dogs we boiled them until they split (I preferred almost split), so it used to be time consuming to make them and there was a pot to wash.
[There is no point to be made from this reminiscence.]
posted by JanetLand at 7:49 AM on January 4, 2022 [9 favorites]
This takes me back to when I was a little kid and microwaves were not widely in use and to cook hot dogs we boiled them until they split (I preferred almost split), so it used to be time consuming to make them and there was a pot to wash.
[There is no point to be made from this reminiscence.]
posted by JanetLand at 7:49 AM on January 4, 2022 [9 favorites]
in my mind, there's a big difference between capitalism-infused dieting culture of the paleo/whole30/etc kind which fixates on image-conscious goals, is pseudoscientific, and exists purely to sell you useless, branded bullshit, and dieting informed by medical research which pretty much seems to just say that you should eat something like a Mediterranean diet all the time (which is difficult in the US due to, well, de-regulated free market ideology limiting the powers of agencies like the FDA and FCC), get some amount of exercise weekly (which is difficult because of the limitations of disposable time, low incomes, and lack of transportation infrastructure or community spaces where equipment is free to use), and maybe take some multivitamins as an insurance policy (which can be pricey)
the latter is, as mentioned above, of course very much affected by things like poverty, food availability, etc, and seems to me largely circumscribed by capitalist ideologies which would gatekeep access to good health, requiring payment, and which lacks the public funding that would make it easily accessible. and even if it were available, it would still not be a global, blanket suggestion that all people can achieve or even thrive under given medical complications and misogyny in the medical field, of which there is much evidence to in this thread
but on the whole, for most people, I think there's a pretty bright line between 'diet culture' and 'dieting', and there is such a thing as making sure you have a diet and exercise regiment conducive towards your longterm health provided you have the resources and time to achieve it, and anything promising a miracle cure that 'fixes' you within some set period of time is bullshit. but it should be emphasized that your ability to diet in an evidence-based fashion is something that's made exponentially more difficult than it needs to be by corporate and small business interests which spends millions of dollars a year lobbying (1 2 3 4 5) so that they can make $$ off of selling you artificial convenience, and this is something that probably should be mentioned in any conversation about the issues with diet culture, particularly if it ends up in a rag like the NYT
posted by paimapi at 7:58 AM on January 4, 2022
the latter is, as mentioned above, of course very much affected by things like poverty, food availability, etc, and seems to me largely circumscribed by capitalist ideologies which would gatekeep access to good health, requiring payment, and which lacks the public funding that would make it easily accessible. and even if it were available, it would still not be a global, blanket suggestion that all people can achieve or even thrive under given medical complications and misogyny in the medical field, of which there is much evidence to in this thread
but on the whole, for most people, I think there's a pretty bright line between 'diet culture' and 'dieting', and there is such a thing as making sure you have a diet and exercise regiment conducive towards your longterm health provided you have the resources and time to achieve it, and anything promising a miracle cure that 'fixes' you within some set period of time is bullshit. but it should be emphasized that your ability to diet in an evidence-based fashion is something that's made exponentially more difficult than it needs to be by corporate and small business interests which spends millions of dollars a year lobbying (1 2 3 4 5) so that they can make $$ off of selling you artificial convenience, and this is something that probably should be mentioned in any conversation about the issues with diet culture, particularly if it ends up in a rag like the NYT
posted by paimapi at 7:58 AM on January 4, 2022
The morality aspect of dieting re: impact on other people. From Manne's opinion column:
As someone who recently dieted with some success (“success”), it is obvious to me that I’ve set a bad example for my now 2-year-old daughter — one that will only become more problematic over time, as she becomes more and more aware of what I am or am not eating. I have contributed in a small way to a society that lauds certain bodies and derogates others for more or less arbitrary reasons and ones that lead to a great deal of cruelty and suffering.posted by spamandkimchi at 7:59 AM on January 4, 2022 [12 favorites]
paimpi, I agree with the thrust of your comment, but I don’t understand your assertions about paleo diets. They have good science behind them and are used by many, including myself, to manage inflammatory conditions. I eat less branded food than the average American because most brands are off-limits for me. Maybe you just didn’t pick the best example. Certainly there are gimmicky diets.
It’s tricky, socially, to be a person with an unusual diet for specific reasons sometimes. There’s so much emotion and politics, and it’s easy for others to have untrue assumptions. I end up having to just say that I have identified the foods that don’t hurt me, and it has nothing to do with anyone else. I believe that food can be a powerful agent of healing in some circumstances, but it’s so, so hard to advocate accurately for that message with so much adjacent quackery floating around.
posted by Comet Bug at 9:53 AM on January 4, 2022 [2 favorites]
It’s tricky, socially, to be a person with an unusual diet for specific reasons sometimes. There’s so much emotion and politics, and it’s easy for others to have untrue assumptions. I end up having to just say that I have identified the foods that don’t hurt me, and it has nothing to do with anyone else. I believe that food can be a powerful agent of healing in some circumstances, but it’s so, so hard to advocate accurately for that message with so much adjacent quackery floating around.
posted by Comet Bug at 9:53 AM on January 4, 2022 [2 favorites]
Amazing. So, a woman goes to the doc with wild weight-gain, and is accused of lying.
Guess what? A man (cis presentation, but gay) with weight loss. Doctor freaks out and INSISTS I must be seriously sick! Apparently unable to comprehend that nutrition and exercise had become the central focus of my life. I found the numbers on my scale to be VERY rewarding, as well as my regular increases in distance and elevation gains, in hiking and biking. The doctor never even thought to ask for a food diary. (when I cut sugar out, the weight loss got even wilder! I lost 100 pounds in about 6 months). I was so fine-tuned, I could tell when I had to eat a fatty meal, in order resume weight loss.
But gee, the doctor went so far as to lie about blood tests he didn't do. Even a bit of a drama scene in the parking lot, the day I finally left that practice for good.
But that doctor thought I had PA myself. Seemed possible. Problem was, he also decided the same thing about my partner, so suddenly, I figured this doc had what I call a "pet diagnosis".
posted by Goofyy at 12:25 PM on January 4, 2022
Guess what? A man (cis presentation, but gay) with weight loss. Doctor freaks out and INSISTS I must be seriously sick! Apparently unable to comprehend that nutrition and exercise had become the central focus of my life. I found the numbers on my scale to be VERY rewarding, as well as my regular increases in distance and elevation gains, in hiking and biking. The doctor never even thought to ask for a food diary. (when I cut sugar out, the weight loss got even wilder! I lost 100 pounds in about 6 months). I was so fine-tuned, I could tell when I had to eat a fatty meal, in order resume weight loss.
But gee, the doctor went so far as to lie about blood tests he didn't do. Even a bit of a drama scene in the parking lot, the day I finally left that practice for good.
But that doctor thought I had PA myself. Seemed possible. Problem was, he also decided the same thing about my partner, so suddenly, I figured this doc had what I call a "pet diagnosis".
posted by Goofyy at 12:25 PM on January 4, 2022
in my mind, there's a big difference between capitalism-infused dieting culture of the paleo/whole30/etc kind which fixates on image-conscious goals, is pseudoscientific, and exists purely to sell you useless, branded bullshit, and dieting informed by medical research which pretty much seems to just say that you should eat something like a Mediterranean diet all the time
Well, yes and no. Yes in that broadly speaking a Mediterranean diet (or other sensible approach to eating that give you the nutrients you need) may improve your health. No, in that 95% of people regain any substantive weight loss over the longer term regardless of the method they use to lose weight. If being healthier is your goal then eating in a broadly sensible way has lots of benefits. If losing weight and keeping it off is your goal, then hope you are in that 5%.
posted by plonkee at 1:46 PM on January 4, 2022 [4 favorites]
Well, yes and no. Yes in that broadly speaking a Mediterranean diet (or other sensible approach to eating that give you the nutrients you need) may improve your health. No, in that 95% of people regain any substantive weight loss over the longer term regardless of the method they use to lose weight. If being healthier is your goal then eating in a broadly sensible way has lots of benefits. If losing weight and keeping it off is your goal, then hope you are in that 5%.
posted by plonkee at 1:46 PM on January 4, 2022 [4 favorites]
LOCAL FOODS AREN’T BETTER FOR THE ENVIRONMENT
I've been trying to grok how at 5-10% reduction in greenhouse gas emissions from food is not better for the environment.
Because transportation emissions are not all uniform. (The 5-10% refers to the proportion of food GHG emissions come from transport.)
Transport efficiencies vary substantially -- orders of magnitude -- by mode; by the pound, a banana from Central America that travels almost 9000 km to get here where I am, mostly by boat, has about the same GHG emissions from transport as an apple grown in the next province a 6 hour truck trip away.
It's entirely plausible that my local cucumber that travels 200 km in a small load by pickup truck has higher GHG emissions per cucumber than one from California that travels 2000 km by rail. And that's before taking into account that it's -28 outside right now here and my local cucumber is growing in a natural gas fired greenhouse, where the one in California is being grown outside; emission-free using solar power and 3 billion year old technology.
I've seen a study (can't find it now in a quick search, unfortunately) that showed that PEI beef (farm raised) has a higher GHG footprint than Alberta beef (grazed largely on forest land) even when both are consumed in PEI, taking into account the 5000 km rail trip from Alberta because of the differing carbon impacts from the food sources.
posted by Superilla at 2:44 PM on January 4, 2022 [3 favorites]
I've been trying to grok how at 5-10% reduction in greenhouse gas emissions from food is not better for the environment.
Because transportation emissions are not all uniform. (The 5-10% refers to the proportion of food GHG emissions come from transport.)
Transport efficiencies vary substantially -- orders of magnitude -- by mode; by the pound, a banana from Central America that travels almost 9000 km to get here where I am, mostly by boat, has about the same GHG emissions from transport as an apple grown in the next province a 6 hour truck trip away.
It's entirely plausible that my local cucumber that travels 200 km in a small load by pickup truck has higher GHG emissions per cucumber than one from California that travels 2000 km by rail. And that's before taking into account that it's -28 outside right now here and my local cucumber is growing in a natural gas fired greenhouse, where the one in California is being grown outside; emission-free using solar power and 3 billion year old technology.
I've seen a study (can't find it now in a quick search, unfortunately) that showed that PEI beef (farm raised) has a higher GHG footprint than Alberta beef (grazed largely on forest land) even when both are consumed in PEI, taking into account the 5000 km rail trip from Alberta because of the differing carbon impacts from the food sources.
posted by Superilla at 2:44 PM on January 4, 2022 [3 favorites]
Transport efficiencies vary substantially -- orders of magnitude -- by mode; by the pound, a banana from Central America that travels almost 9000 km to get here where I am, mostly by boat, has about the same GHG emissions from transport as an apple grown in the next province a 6 hour truck trip away.
Isn't GHG emissions a very narrow lens to use for evaluating environmental impact? It's the same leap of logic made by the original claimant too, who says "LOCAL FOODS AREN’T BETTER FOR THE ENVIRONMENT" but links to an article about emissions only.
What, for instance, is the environmental impact of banana monocultures grown using pesticides which run off into local water tables? What is the environmental impact of ballast water from ships which poisons marine environments?
That twitter thread is not believable in its capslocked claim that local foods aren't better for the environment mostly because the writer, who is a literally a paid shill for agrichemicals, limits her consideration of the impact of industrial farming on the environment to the one and only metric which benefits from economies of scale: GHG emissions. It's like saying "WATER ISN'T BETTER FOR YOUR HEALTH THAN COCA COLA" because you're limit yourself to looking only at studies where starving rats were fed diets of water only vs. coca cola only and aha! the rats lived much longer on coke.
posted by MiraK at 3:23 PM on January 4, 2022 [3 favorites]
Isn't GHG emissions a very narrow lens to use for evaluating environmental impact? It's the same leap of logic made by the original claimant too, who says "LOCAL FOODS AREN’T BETTER FOR THE ENVIRONMENT" but links to an article about emissions only.
What, for instance, is the environmental impact of banana monocultures grown using pesticides which run off into local water tables? What is the environmental impact of ballast water from ships which poisons marine environments?
That twitter thread is not believable in its capslocked claim that local foods aren't better for the environment mostly because the writer, who is a literally a paid shill for agrichemicals, limits her consideration of the impact of industrial farming on the environment to the one and only metric which benefits from economies of scale: GHG emissions. It's like saying "WATER ISN'T BETTER FOR YOUR HEALTH THAN COCA COLA" because you're limit yourself to looking only at studies where starving rats were fed diets of water only vs. coca cola only and aha! the rats lived much longer on coke.
posted by MiraK at 3:23 PM on January 4, 2022 [3 favorites]
Isn't GHG emissions a very narrow lens to use for evaluating environmental impact? It's the same leap of logic made by the original claimant too, who says "LOCAL FOODS AREN’T BETTER FOR THE ENVIRONMENT" but links to an article about emissions only.
What, for instance, is the environmental impact of banana monocultures grown using pesticides which run off into local water tables? What is the environmental impact of ballast water from ships which poisons marine environments?
GHG emissions is a very narrow lens if you're not particularly interested in the current global climate crisis that is currently damaging all aspects of the environment everywhere on the planet, I suppose. Sure, the house is on fire, but what if the firefighter's hose causes some water damage to something that might not have burned? Throwing in pesticides as shade against dirty foreign countries while ignoring that US and Canadian farms are highly capable of pesticide use on monocultures is a great rhetorical trick to boot.
The only fundamental truth that can be printed in all caps is IT IS IMPOSSIBLE TO DETERMINE EXACTLY WHAT ACTIONS ARE IN ABSOLUTE TERMS BETTER FOR THE ENVIRONMENT BECAUSE 'THE ENVIRONMENT' IS A VAGUE CONCEPT AND WE ACT WITHIN A COMPLEX SYSTEM.
Congratulations; now go and use that nihilism to discourage people from making better choices.
posted by Superilla at 3:54 PM on January 4, 2022
What, for instance, is the environmental impact of banana monocultures grown using pesticides which run off into local water tables? What is the environmental impact of ballast water from ships which poisons marine environments?
GHG emissions is a very narrow lens if you're not particularly interested in the current global climate crisis that is currently damaging all aspects of the environment everywhere on the planet, I suppose. Sure, the house is on fire, but what if the firefighter's hose causes some water damage to something that might not have burned? Throwing in pesticides as shade against dirty foreign countries while ignoring that US and Canadian farms are highly capable of pesticide use on monocultures is a great rhetorical trick to boot.
The only fundamental truth that can be printed in all caps is IT IS IMPOSSIBLE TO DETERMINE EXACTLY WHAT ACTIONS ARE IN ABSOLUTE TERMS BETTER FOR THE ENVIRONMENT BECAUSE 'THE ENVIRONMENT' IS A VAGUE CONCEPT AND WE ACT WITHIN A COMPLEX SYSTEM.
Congratulations; now go and use that nihilism to discourage people from making better choices.
posted by Superilla at 3:54 PM on January 4, 2022
“ Congratulations; now go and use that nihilism to discourage people from making better choices.”
Will do! Guilting people about their consumer choices is only useful to the industrial polluters their emotions are diverted away from, and generally just adds more anxiety to the world.
posted by thedaniel at 4:37 PM on January 4, 2022 [1 favorite]
Will do! Guilting people about their consumer choices is only useful to the industrial polluters their emotions are diverted away from, and generally just adds more anxiety to the world.
posted by thedaniel at 4:37 PM on January 4, 2022 [1 favorite]
Throwing in pesticides as shade against dirty foreign countries while ignoring that US and Canadian farms are highly capable of pesticide use on monocultures is a great rhetorical trick to boot.... Congratulations; now go and use that nihilism to discourage people from making better choices.
Whoa whoa whoa. What part of my "this twitter lady shills for monsanto" thesis reads as "let's all be nihilists" to you? Or even more ludicrous, "throwing shade at dirty foreign countries"? It's right there in my thesis statement, my dude, I'm blaming MONSANTO not foreign countries.
As noted earlier on this very thread, I am from one of the pesticide-poisoned ~dirty~ foreign countries you think I'm "throwing shade" at, so, like, cool it with your racist-ass grandstanding about how little my people's polluted fields and rivers matter, mmkay? I'm just here to keep dunking on Monsanto lady and share lentil recipes. I'm not the mythic enemy of the environment you're looking to fight.
posted by MiraK at 7:40 PM on January 4, 2022 [6 favorites]
Whoa whoa whoa. What part of my "this twitter lady shills for monsanto" thesis reads as "let's all be nihilists" to you? Or even more ludicrous, "throwing shade at dirty foreign countries"? It's right there in my thesis statement, my dude, I'm blaming MONSANTO not foreign countries.
As noted earlier on this very thread, I am from one of the pesticide-poisoned ~dirty~ foreign countries you think I'm "throwing shade" at, so, like, cool it with your racist-ass grandstanding about how little my people's polluted fields and rivers matter, mmkay? I'm just here to keep dunking on Monsanto lady and share lentil recipes. I'm not the mythic enemy of the environment you're looking to fight.
posted by MiraK at 7:40 PM on January 4, 2022 [6 favorites]
Cool opinion piece, but I get the impression that most critics of diet culture aren’t so critical of certain other heavily promoted medical interventions that often cause pain, suffering and anxiety (and sheer hunger), and which also frequently fail to deliver “health and happiness." In fact, many critics of dieting are themselves promoters of these other treatments. In diet-critical spaces, it’s frowned upon—even forbidden—for people to discuss diets that have “worked” for them, yet many diet-critical individuals have no problem telling people who have never benefitted from this other class of treatments that they should “keep trying” until they “find one” that helps them.
posted by cinchona at 2:59 PM on January 12, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by cinchona at 2:59 PM on January 12, 2022 [1 favorite]
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