Facebook paid GOP firm to malign TikTok
April 4, 2022 1:57 PM Subscribe
Facebook is paying one of the biggest Republican consulting firms in the country, Targeted Victory, to orchestrate a nationwide campaign seeking to turn the public against TikTok. [12ft.io; WaPo]
"Campaign operatives were also encouraged to use TikTok’s prominence as a way to deflect from Meta’s own privacy and antitrust concerns."
"Campaign operatives were also encouraged to use TikTok’s prominence as a way to deflect from Meta’s own privacy and antitrust concerns."
I am not the least bit surprised that nonsense moral panic TikTok challenges like 'slap a teacher' originated on Facebook. Nonsense moral panics are one of the things that Facebook does really well.
(Facebook has worked with Targeted Victory since at least 2017.)
posted by box at 2:25 PM on April 4, 2022 [19 favorites]
(Facebook has worked with Targeted Victory since at least 2017.)
posted by box at 2:25 PM on April 4, 2022 [19 favorites]
I shouldn’t find “From Dances to Danger” as funny as I do. It sounds like a gag from a workplace comedy about this happening.
posted by Countess Elena at 2:41 PM on April 4, 2022 [3 favorites]
posted by Countess Elena at 2:41 PM on April 4, 2022 [3 favorites]
When Godzilla fights Barugon, it may be entertaining to watch, but civilization is still destroyed.
posted by biogeo at 2:57 PM on April 4, 2022 [23 favorites]
posted by biogeo at 2:57 PM on April 4, 2022 [23 favorites]
What WON'T Facebook pay a shady consulting firm to brainwash the public about?
posted by bleep at 3:00 PM on April 4, 2022 [19 favorites]
posted by bleep at 3:00 PM on April 4, 2022 [19 favorites]
When Godzilla fights Barugon, it may be entertaining to watch, but civilization is still destroyed.
True. And I know that absent a time machine it's not an especially useful point to make, but I can't help thinking that if we hadn't been so cavalier about those nuclear tests, maybe we wouldn't now be trying to pick which kaiju to root for.
posted by penduluum at 3:04 PM on April 4, 2022 [6 favorites]
True. And I know that absent a time machine it's not an especially useful point to make, but I can't help thinking that if we hadn't been so cavalier about those nuclear tests, maybe we wouldn't now be trying to pick which kaiju to root for.
posted by penduluum at 3:04 PM on April 4, 2022 [6 favorites]
Nobody told me that back in the 80s Steve Jackson Games' Illuminati was a simulation
posted by Heywood Mogroot III at 3:32 PM on April 4, 2022 [15 favorites]
posted by Heywood Mogroot III at 3:32 PM on April 4, 2022 [15 favorites]
Facebook is so done. Yeah I use it but it is for olds, nobody my kids' age is ever going to touch it. It's like Frank Sinatra trying to run interference on the Beatles. Just not gonna happen.
posted by Meatbomb at 3:39 PM on April 4, 2022 [6 favorites]
posted by Meatbomb at 3:39 PM on April 4, 2022 [6 favorites]
but I can't help thinking that if we hadn't been so cavalier about those nuclear tests, maybe we wouldn't now be trying to pick which kaiju to root for.
Dorsey's performative (he hasn't exactly given back the money he made from Twitter now, has he) digital mortification there is a load of bullshit. Techies like to paint the nature of the early internet with the brush of the frontier myth, but the reality is that those systems were hostile to outsiders (consider what the phrasing of "Eternal September" actually means in context) and could be hard to use for people not technically inclined. For the internet to become, well, the internet, it had to become a system that regular people could use easily, and that's what these companies won out on.
And let's not forget that had Dorsey been actually competent at his job as head of Twitter, Tiktok wouldn't exist today.
posted by NoxAeternum at 3:44 PM on April 4, 2022 [6 favorites]
Dorsey's performative (he hasn't exactly given back the money he made from Twitter now, has he) digital mortification there is a load of bullshit. Techies like to paint the nature of the early internet with the brush of the frontier myth, but the reality is that those systems were hostile to outsiders (consider what the phrasing of "Eternal September" actually means in context) and could be hard to use for people not technically inclined. For the internet to become, well, the internet, it had to become a system that regular people could use easily, and that's what these companies won out on.
And let's not forget that had Dorsey been actually competent at his job as head of Twitter, Tiktok wouldn't exist today.
posted by NoxAeternum at 3:44 PM on April 4, 2022 [6 favorites]
Nobody told me that back in the 80s Steve Jackson Games' Illuminati was a simulation
Fnord! I still have hundreds of cards somewhere.
posted by Max Power at 3:53 PM on April 4, 2022 [6 favorites]
Fnord! I still have hundreds of cards somewhere.
posted by Max Power at 3:53 PM on April 4, 2022 [6 favorites]
I used to believe that the Internet would join us together. Goddammit! The Babel Fish was right.
posted by SPrintF at 4:31 PM on April 4, 2022 [5 favorites]
posted by SPrintF at 4:31 PM on April 4, 2022 [5 favorites]
A couple years ago, I remember repeatedly hearing a bunch of negative stuff about TikTok and wondered where this strong, consistent message was coming from. Sure, it's "Chinese based" social media (>cue scary music), but it's really just another social media craze. I guess this was a set of coordinated attacks after all.
I don't even do Twitter (I tried, but nothing about it clicked for me), and I don't know much of anything about TikTok, so my opinions on it would be meaningless. My Facebook usage these days consists of Messenger, which my D&D group uses for scheduling. And seeing photos of people's babies from time to time. I'm mostly on Reddit. But Reddit can be made pretty anonymous (at least kinda sort of) and it's full of various diverse interests that I have. I find that it's pretty easy to keep away from the sewage on Reddit.
posted by SoberHighland at 4:42 PM on April 4, 2022 [4 favorites]
I don't even do Twitter (I tried, but nothing about it clicked for me), and I don't know much of anything about TikTok, so my opinions on it would be meaningless. My Facebook usage these days consists of Messenger, which my D&D group uses for scheduling. And seeing photos of people's babies from time to time. I'm mostly on Reddit. But Reddit can be made pretty anonymous (at least kinda sort of) and it's full of various diverse interests that I have. I find that it's pretty easy to keep away from the sewage on Reddit.
posted by SoberHighland at 4:42 PM on April 4, 2022 [4 favorites]
I find that it's pretty easy to keep away from the sewage on Reddit.
And yet it still exists and causes harm.
posted by NoxAeternum at 4:45 PM on April 4, 2022 [4 favorites]
And yet it still exists and causes harm.
posted by NoxAeternum at 4:45 PM on April 4, 2022 [4 favorites]
And yet it still exists and causes harm.
True. But I choose to use parts of Reddit that work for me. There's almost nothing in this world you can buy or consume that doesn't cause harm somewhere. If you want to choose to avoid all social media, then more power to you!
posted by SoberHighland at 4:50 PM on April 4, 2022 [14 favorites]
True. But I choose to use parts of Reddit that work for me. There's almost nothing in this world you can buy or consume that doesn't cause harm somewhere. If you want to choose to avoid all social media, then more power to you!
posted by SoberHighland at 4:50 PM on April 4, 2022 [14 favorites]
Facebook is so done. Yeah I use it but it is for olds, nobody my kids' age is ever going to touch it. It's like Frank Sinatra trying to run interference on the Beatles. Just not gonna happen.
Meatbomb
It really is baffling. What are they even trying to do anymore? Like who is this Metaverse initiative aimed at? Certainly not my 65+ year old aunts and uncles who are the only reason I maintain an account. Every Millennial I know wonders why they're trying to do Second Life again. Young adults and teens wouldn't touch it with a ten foot pole.
posted by star gentle uterus at 5:14 PM on April 4, 2022 [12 favorites]
Meatbomb
It really is baffling. What are they even trying to do anymore? Like who is this Metaverse initiative aimed at? Certainly not my 65+ year old aunts and uncles who are the only reason I maintain an account. Every Millennial I know wonders why they're trying to do Second Life again. Young adults and teens wouldn't touch it with a ten foot pole.
posted by star gentle uterus at 5:14 PM on April 4, 2022 [12 favorites]
I find that it's pretty easy to keep away from the sewage on Reddit.
And yet it still exists and causes harm.
And yet, here you are, on the internet.
And let's not forget that had Dorsey been actually competent at his job as head of Twitter, Tiktok wouldn't exist today.
Had Dorsey been competent, he would be head of a big monopoly that we all could enjoy. waitaminute...
Not to pick on you specifically, but this story seems to have broken heads all over the internet somehow. I don't know what it is about this revelation, but it's kickstarted all kinds of weird comments that kinda don't make a whole lot of sense.
posted by 2N2222 at 5:15 PM on April 4, 2022 [3 favorites]
And yet it still exists and causes harm.
And yet, here you are, on the internet.
And let's not forget that had Dorsey been actually competent at his job as head of Twitter, Tiktok wouldn't exist today.
Had Dorsey been competent, he would be head of a big monopoly that we all could enjoy. waitaminute...
Not to pick on you specifically, but this story seems to have broken heads all over the internet somehow. I don't know what it is about this revelation, but it's kickstarted all kinds of weird comments that kinda don't make a whole lot of sense.
posted by 2N2222 at 5:15 PM on April 4, 2022 [3 favorites]
What WON'T Facebook pay a shady consulting firm to brainwash the public about?
That putting devices down and getting out in the sunshine to play games or ride bikes is good for young people's development?
posted by dg at 5:19 PM on April 4, 2022 [1 favorite]
That putting devices down and getting out in the sunshine to play games or ride bikes is good for young people's development?
posted by dg at 5:19 PM on April 4, 2022 [1 favorite]
What are they even trying to do anymore?
I've found Garbage Day's and The Content Mines' analyses of facebook metrics and transparency data very interesting. Looking at the data of top pages/posts/videos/etc., the service is a shell of what it once was. There are very active conservative groups who are mostly reposting youtube videos. There are very active pages popular in the US that are run from Sri Lanka or Malaysia just posting lowest-common-denominator engagement stuff like "Peanut butter or jelly? Which do you like best?" and often eventually getting kicked off the service for a variety of reasons (one quarter last year, if I remember, the top engagement facebook page in the US had been kicked off the site by the time the transparency report came out). This recent episode delved into some of the most popular video pages on facebook that are just doing livestreamed Bingo games. That is what mainstream facebook is now. For some reason, also, there's a ton of content being made by magicians, and it does very well on facebook, though it's not always magic...it's a running joke that when some video goes viral on facebook, when you search out the source, it's always a magician who is responsible for creating it and crafting it perfectly for the facebook feed's algorithm.
It does not paint a picture of a vibrant or healthy place where anyone should be spending time or which should be held up as any sort of tech success story. The questions these analyses always end up on are: What is Facebook now? What is it trying to be? What would ever attract new users to the service? etc.
It's a bad place and getting worse.
posted by msbrauer at 5:31 PM on April 4, 2022 [11 favorites]
I've found Garbage Day's and The Content Mines' analyses of facebook metrics and transparency data very interesting. Looking at the data of top pages/posts/videos/etc., the service is a shell of what it once was. There are very active conservative groups who are mostly reposting youtube videos. There are very active pages popular in the US that are run from Sri Lanka or Malaysia just posting lowest-common-denominator engagement stuff like "Peanut butter or jelly? Which do you like best?" and often eventually getting kicked off the service for a variety of reasons (one quarter last year, if I remember, the top engagement facebook page in the US had been kicked off the site by the time the transparency report came out). This recent episode delved into some of the most popular video pages on facebook that are just doing livestreamed Bingo games. That is what mainstream facebook is now. For some reason, also, there's a ton of content being made by magicians, and it does very well on facebook, though it's not always magic...it's a running joke that when some video goes viral on facebook, when you search out the source, it's always a magician who is responsible for creating it and crafting it perfectly for the facebook feed's algorithm.
It does not paint a picture of a vibrant or healthy place where anyone should be spending time or which should be held up as any sort of tech success story. The questions these analyses always end up on are: What is Facebook now? What is it trying to be? What would ever attract new users to the service? etc.
It's a bad place and getting worse.
posted by msbrauer at 5:31 PM on April 4, 2022 [11 favorites]
Is there no Facebook setting similar to the one on twitter that just shows you the posts made by those you follow in reverse-chronological order, like in the olden days? That's the setting that works best on twitter because it has zero recommended content, zero anything from anyone outside your feed (unless retweeted), it's just your chosen friend circle contributing.
Is that not available on Facebook? Because if not, that's terrible.
posted by hippybear at 6:03 PM on April 4, 2022 [1 favorite]
Is that not available on Facebook? Because if not, that's terrible.
posted by hippybear at 6:03 PM on April 4, 2022 [1 favorite]
And let's not forget that had Dorsey been actually competent at his job as head of Twitter, Tiktok wouldn't exist today.
This is the really hilarious part of the whole thing, to me. ByteDance—now one of the most valuable companies in the world, on paper—basically just filled the vacuum left when Twitter bought Vine for twenty million dollars and then just drove it onto the rocks, eventually pulling the plug on what remained in 2016.
It's enough to make you think... maybe these "tech visionaries" can't tell The Next Big thing from a fucking hole in the ground. Or that maybe, being lucky enough to have been in the right place at the right time just once, doesn't mean you can do it a second time, even if it's handed to you on a silver platter.
TikTok is literally just Vine without the hard 6-second limit (and isn't part of Facebook). That's it. Everything else is frosting.
posted by Kadin2048 at 6:30 PM on April 4, 2022 [19 favorites]
This is the really hilarious part of the whole thing, to me. ByteDance—now one of the most valuable companies in the world, on paper—basically just filled the vacuum left when Twitter bought Vine for twenty million dollars and then just drove it onto the rocks, eventually pulling the plug on what remained in 2016.
It's enough to make you think... maybe these "tech visionaries" can't tell The Next Big thing from a fucking hole in the ground. Or that maybe, being lucky enough to have been in the right place at the right time just once, doesn't mean you can do it a second time, even if it's handed to you on a silver platter.
TikTok is literally just Vine without the hard 6-second limit (and isn't part of Facebook). That's it. Everything else is frosting.
posted by Kadin2048 at 6:30 PM on April 4, 2022 [19 favorites]
Facebook is so done. Yeah I use it but it is for olds, nobody my kids' age is ever going to touch it. It's like Frank Sinatra trying to run interference on the Beatles. Just not gonna happen.
Meatbomb
It really is baffling. What are they even trying to do anymore? Like who is this Metaverse initiative aimed at?
It's aimed at the high school students I teach who spend all their free time on Roblox or watching Minecraft videos. Duh.
posted by subdee at 7:01 PM on April 4, 2022 [1 favorite]
Meatbomb
It really is baffling. What are they even trying to do anymore? Like who is this Metaverse initiative aimed at?
It's aimed at the high school students I teach who spend all their free time on Roblox or watching Minecraft videos. Duh.
posted by subdee at 7:01 PM on April 4, 2022 [1 favorite]
I was close to being done with FB a couple years ago. I'd never once used the groups feature, I was just in that mode of ignoring every new feature they pushed on me. I can't remember exactly what got me into it, probably a covid thing, but I'm in about 2-3 groups each for biking, kayaking and skiing around here and the volume of information, invitations, and resources is truly astonishing.
I joke to people that now when I go on facebook I don't see my friends and it's much improved, but really it's a stunning turn around. Just did my first pool kayak session Saturday with an instructor who frequents the local groups. There's a small amount of drama (complaining) on the ski groups, but it's vastly outweighed by having the juggernaut deliver daily snow reports to me.
Anyway, sad to say, but my appreciation for FB has undergone a great renewal lately. Zero understanding of the connection between any of this and the metaverse, naturally. In fact I often consider that my renewed appreciation for FB is entirely devoted to getting my eyeballs into the outdoors and as far away from the virtual world as possible.
posted by Wood at 8:04 PM on April 4, 2022 [3 favorites]
I joke to people that now when I go on facebook I don't see my friends and it's much improved, but really it's a stunning turn around. Just did my first pool kayak session Saturday with an instructor who frequents the local groups. There's a small amount of drama (complaining) on the ski groups, but it's vastly outweighed by having the juggernaut deliver daily snow reports to me.
Anyway, sad to say, but my appreciation for FB has undergone a great renewal lately. Zero understanding of the connection between any of this and the metaverse, naturally. In fact I often consider that my renewed appreciation for FB is entirely devoted to getting my eyeballs into the outdoors and as far away from the virtual world as possible.
posted by Wood at 8:04 PM on April 4, 2022 [3 favorites]
In other FB news: Ronan Burtenshaw, editor of Tribune Magazine: "Facebook has prevented us from promoting our article on record rents today because it’s 'discriminatory' against… landlords."
Here's the article in question: The Rent Is Too Damn High: Housing is driving the cost of living crisis, with private rents in England the highest ever recorded. That will only change through a struggle of renters against the rentiers.
posted by homunculus at 8:21 PM on April 4, 2022 [10 favorites]
Here's the article in question: The Rent Is Too Damn High: Housing is driving the cost of living crisis, with private rents in England the highest ever recorded. That will only change through a struggle of renters against the rentiers.
posted by homunculus at 8:21 PM on April 4, 2022 [10 favorites]
I finally stopped using Facebook several months back. Most of my friends had already stopped so my whole feed was family I'm not very close to, ads, and suggested posts (based on what I don't know. They were always awful). I still have an account for the two people I talk with on messenger but that's it. But they still own Instagram and that's relatively active in my peer group. I barely use that either but it's not as obviously dying yet like Facebook. I'm sure it'll come but Zuckerberg isn't completely gone yet unfortunately. While I hate TikTok it is nice Zuck doesn't own it. Really I'm just done with social media. It was fun for a while. Now I can't bring myself to care.
posted by downtohisturtles at 8:23 PM on April 4, 2022 [5 favorites]
posted by downtohisturtles at 8:23 PM on April 4, 2022 [5 favorites]
Here why I'm forced to use Facebook. I run a small, new, theatre company. I have to advertise to build an audience. My choices are basically the local paper that no one under 60 reads, the radio which is budget-busting and had no metrics to tell me if anyone is getting the message (and informal polls suggest not), and FB/Instagram. The latter is both affordable, and gives me useful siege information (40 and older FB, 40 and younger, Insta).
With local papers dying, there's not many options for inexpensive advertising.
posted by CheeseDigestsAll at 8:27 PM on April 4, 2022 [7 favorites]
With local papers dying, there's not many options for inexpensive advertising.
posted by CheeseDigestsAll at 8:27 PM on April 4, 2022 [7 favorites]
Public radio might offer a good local alternative to commercial radio? And you'll get feedback from people voluntariy, telling you they appreciate you supporting the service. I have no idea about rates.
posted by hippybear at 8:34 PM on April 4, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by hippybear at 8:34 PM on April 4, 2022 [1 favorite]
So where have the Boomer Facebook users gone? And where are the folks in their 30s-40s hanging out?
posted by pelvicsorcery at 9:31 PM on April 4, 2022
posted by pelvicsorcery at 9:31 PM on April 4, 2022
so the social network where old folks post about lizard people at the center of the flat earth is paying lobbyists to badmouth the social network controlled by a dictatorship, on which young(er) people watch dancing and virally share videos about how babies are internationally sex-trafficked inside cheap cabinets? neat. can both sides lose?
posted by wibari at 9:37 PM on April 4, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by wibari at 9:37 PM on April 4, 2022 [2 favorites]
Possibly the least-evil thing Facebook has ever done?
posted by straight at 9:40 PM on April 4, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by straight at 9:40 PM on April 4, 2022 [2 favorites]
I used to believe that the Internet would join us together.
For the most part it has. People who never would have had the chance to hate each other are now able to reach out and make that special connection.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 10:12 PM on April 4, 2022 [14 favorites]
For the most part it has. People who never would have had the chance to hate each other are now able to reach out and make that special connection.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 10:12 PM on April 4, 2022 [14 favorites]
With local papers dying, there's not many options for inexpensive advertising.
Yep and even if you wanted to advertise in them (you don't), they'll charge an arm and a leg for the privilege of lining the budgie cage. Same goes with radio - listeners are decreasing at a rate of knots because who needs the radio now anyway, but they still want a fortune for the privilege of reaching both their audience members. Forget TV - they have the reach but anything worthwhile for a small organisation is just way too expensive.
I use Facebook to market for my employer, because our target market is affluent, in their '20s and would never consider dealing with a company without a strong Facebook presence (not everyone lives in the US). I also used Facebook to market a major (in my field) sports event a couple of years ago and the bang-for-buck was mind-blowing (just ask any US Republican, I guess). Marketing can be targeted with incredible precision and adjusted on the fly because you get near real-time feedback on the characteristics of who is seeing and responding to your ads and who isn't. You have absolute control over how much each displayed ad costs and how much people interacting with your ads costs you. I mean, I'm pissed off that they have abused the trust of pretty much everyone to gather so much data that I could do that, but small organisations can't afford to ignore that power. I also justify it by telling myself that the high and mighty Mr 'don't be evil' is equally bad in that respect, although they're less likely to tell everyone they're doing it.
The Internet has joined us together all right - into world-wide bands of raving lunatics hell-bent on killing one another if only we could do it over TCP/IP because we ain't gettin' off that couch today.
posted by dg at 10:40 PM on April 4, 2022 [5 favorites]
Yep and even if you wanted to advertise in them (you don't), they'll charge an arm and a leg for the privilege of lining the budgie cage. Same goes with radio - listeners are decreasing at a rate of knots because who needs the radio now anyway, but they still want a fortune for the privilege of reaching both their audience members. Forget TV - they have the reach but anything worthwhile for a small organisation is just way too expensive.
I use Facebook to market for my employer, because our target market is affluent, in their '20s and would never consider dealing with a company without a strong Facebook presence (not everyone lives in the US). I also used Facebook to market a major (in my field) sports event a couple of years ago and the bang-for-buck was mind-blowing (just ask any US Republican, I guess). Marketing can be targeted with incredible precision and adjusted on the fly because you get near real-time feedback on the characteristics of who is seeing and responding to your ads and who isn't. You have absolute control over how much each displayed ad costs and how much people interacting with your ads costs you. I mean, I'm pissed off that they have abused the trust of pretty much everyone to gather so much data that I could do that, but small organisations can't afford to ignore that power. I also justify it by telling myself that the high and mighty Mr 'don't be evil' is equally bad in that respect, although they're less likely to tell everyone they're doing it.
The Internet has joined us together all right - into world-wide bands of raving lunatics hell-bent on killing one another if only we could do it over TCP/IP because we ain't gettin' off that couch today.
posted by dg at 10:40 PM on April 4, 2022 [5 favorites]
So where have the Boomer Facebook users gone? And where are the folks in their 30s-40s hanging out?
While it's possible some hardcore political junkies have moved to Qanon stronghold networks (whatever the hell the Trump Organization is shilling this week), I think Facebook is still where the largest concentration of people in the 40+ demographic are. They might be losing users here and there—and if your friend group all leaves, it might feel like "everyone" has left—but I think reports of Facebook's death have been greatly exaggerated. There certainly doesn't seem to be an equivalent competitor for established adult users; most of the successful competitors have focused on recruiting new users who are just building their social networks in adolescence and young adulthood.
My prediction: Facebook.com is going to lumber on until its userbase eventually dies, and the last ads will be nothing but cremation services firms and write-your-own-will kits.
If Meta has any brains at all, they won't contaminate other brands by Facebook-izing them. They'll buy them and hook them up on the backend to all the analytics and user profiling and advertising plumbing, but keep them separate on the user-facing side. So the 40+ demo will have Facebook™, and 30-40 will have Instagram™ (which will age and die with them), and 20-30 will have something that's just on the verge of popularity right now, and I'm definitely too uncool for.
And if you're Meta, you just keep running that same play, over and over.
TBH, I think it's easier than the traditional retail brand-treadmill, where you try to get customers to "move up" to more grown-up brands or marques over time (like Ikea trying to lowkey suggest I should upgrade that LACK table to something from the STOCKHOLM Collection—I like the LACK stuff just fine get off my case).
posted by Kadin2048 at 10:43 PM on April 4, 2022 [5 favorites]
While it's possible some hardcore political junkies have moved to Qanon stronghold networks (whatever the hell the Trump Organization is shilling this week), I think Facebook is still where the largest concentration of people in the 40+ demographic are. They might be losing users here and there—and if your friend group all leaves, it might feel like "everyone" has left—but I think reports of Facebook's death have been greatly exaggerated. There certainly doesn't seem to be an equivalent competitor for established adult users; most of the successful competitors have focused on recruiting new users who are just building their social networks in adolescence and young adulthood.
My prediction: Facebook.com is going to lumber on until its userbase eventually dies, and the last ads will be nothing but cremation services firms and write-your-own-will kits.
If Meta has any brains at all, they won't contaminate other brands by Facebook-izing them. They'll buy them and hook them up on the backend to all the analytics and user profiling and advertising plumbing, but keep them separate on the user-facing side. So the 40+ demo will have Facebook™, and 30-40 will have Instagram™ (which will age and die with them), and 20-30 will have something that's just on the verge of popularity right now, and I'm definitely too uncool for.
And if you're Meta, you just keep running that same play, over and over.
TBH, I think it's easier than the traditional retail brand-treadmill, where you try to get customers to "move up" to more grown-up brands or marques over time (like Ikea trying to lowkey suggest I should upgrade that LACK table to something from the STOCKHOLM Collection—I like the LACK stuff just fine get off my case).
posted by Kadin2048 at 10:43 PM on April 4, 2022 [5 favorites]
It's enough to make you think... maybe these "tech visionaries" can't tell The Next Big thing from a fucking hole in the ground. Or that maybe, being lucky enough to have been in the right place at the right time just once, doesn't mean you can do it a second time, even if it's handed to you on a silver platter.
The thing is that it wasn't difficult to see that Vine was actually connecting and you saw people really having success with the format, even with the asinine limits it had. But because Dorsey couldn't figure out how to make it work (most likely because he was clearly more focused on Square, where his money actually was), he literally let Vine die and handed the space to competitors.
I'd argue that Dorsey and his team had always stumbled into success with Twitter and never really grasped how it actually worked (the recent mechanism of trying to force people to sign up if they want to read a feed being an excellent demonstration of this.) But even if you want to grant his initial tenure was successful, his return as a part time CEO was a trainwreck that showed why a part time CEO just doesn't work.
posted by NoxAeternum at 12:01 AM on April 5, 2022 [1 favorite]
The thing is that it wasn't difficult to see that Vine was actually connecting and you saw people really having success with the format, even with the asinine limits it had. But because Dorsey couldn't figure out how to make it work (most likely because he was clearly more focused on Square, where his money actually was), he literally let Vine die and handed the space to competitors.
I'd argue that Dorsey and his team had always stumbled into success with Twitter and never really grasped how it actually worked (the recent mechanism of trying to force people to sign up if they want to read a feed being an excellent demonstration of this.) But even if you want to grant his initial tenure was successful, his return as a part time CEO was a trainwreck that showed why a part time CEO just doesn't work.
posted by NoxAeternum at 12:01 AM on April 5, 2022 [1 favorite]
And if you're Meta, you just keep running that same play, over and over.
So, a sort of Meta-stasis? Sounds like a formula for uncontrolled growth to me!
posted by notoriety public at 3:50 AM on April 5, 2022 [2 favorites]
So, a sort of Meta-stasis? Sounds like a formula for uncontrolled growth to me!
posted by notoriety public at 3:50 AM on April 5, 2022 [2 favorites]
So where have the Boomer Facebook users gone?
🎶 long time passing…
And where are the folks in their 30s-40s hanging out?
🎶 long time ago….
posted by GenjiandProust at 4:12 AM on April 5, 2022 [7 favorites]
🎶 long time passing…
And where are the folks in their 30s-40s hanging out?
🎶 long time ago….
posted by GenjiandProust at 4:12 AM on April 5, 2022 [7 favorites]
It's enough to make you think... maybe these "tech visionaries" can't tell The Next Big thing from a fucking hole in the ground. Or that maybe, being lucky enough to have been in the right place at the right time just once, doesn't mean you can do it a second time, even if it's handed to you on a silver platter.
That's another thing I've been reading in different analyses of Facebook and the current internet behemoths. A great deal of what comprises the services of Facebook, Google, Twitter et al, for the average user was mostly developed 15 years ago. Most of the new features of those services were either incremental developments of those original ideas or acquisitions rolled into the old service or direct copies of something developed by another company. Instagram's largest changes (stories, reels), for instance, are just copies of Snapchat and TikTok features. And of course, Instagram itself was an acquisition.
These major tech "innovators" don't seem to innovate much.
posted by msbrauer at 6:27 AM on April 5, 2022 [5 favorites]
That's another thing I've been reading in different analyses of Facebook and the current internet behemoths. A great deal of what comprises the services of Facebook, Google, Twitter et al, for the average user was mostly developed 15 years ago. Most of the new features of those services were either incremental developments of those original ideas or acquisitions rolled into the old service or direct copies of something developed by another company. Instagram's largest changes (stories, reels), for instance, are just copies of Snapchat and TikTok features. And of course, Instagram itself was an acquisition.
These major tech "innovators" don't seem to innovate much.
posted by msbrauer at 6:27 AM on April 5, 2022 [5 favorites]
And Elon Musk has bought his way onto the Twitter board of directors, purchasing literally a tenth of the company to do so.
posted by NoxAeternum at 7:00 AM on April 5, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by NoxAeternum at 7:00 AM on April 5, 2022 [1 favorite]
maybe these "tech visionaries" can't tell The Next Big thing from a fucking hole in the ground.
90% of startups fail. Of the ones that make it as far as getting funded (by VC or big companies) 75% still fail.
Predicting the next big thing would be great, but the standard model is to keep throwing things against the wall until one sticks.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 7:33 AM on April 5, 2022
90% of startups fail. Of the ones that make it as far as getting funded (by VC or big companies) 75% still fail.
Predicting the next big thing would be great, but the standard model is to keep throwing things against the wall until one sticks.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 7:33 AM on April 5, 2022
The one exception to that I would say was Steve Jobs, who over a long period was able to consistently bring popular new features and products to market. And even he missed on a fairly regular basis.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 7:36 AM on April 5, 2022 [3 favorites]
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 7:36 AM on April 5, 2022 [3 favorites]
Steve Jobs was a raging asshole. This fact was sourced by knowing people who worked around him in an IT capacity.
posted by Abehammerb Lincoln at 9:09 AM on April 5, 2022 [4 favorites]
posted by Abehammerb Lincoln at 9:09 AM on April 5, 2022 [4 favorites]
Facester
posted by gottabefunky at 9:28 AM on April 5, 2022
posted by gottabefunky at 9:28 AM on April 5, 2022
But because Dorsey couldn't figure out how to make it work (most likely because he was clearly more focused on Square, where his money actually was), he literally let Vine die and handed the space to competitors.
He let it wither on the vine.
posted by ActingTheGoat at 11:03 AM on April 5, 2022 [1 favorite]
He let it wither on the vine.
posted by ActingTheGoat at 11:03 AM on April 5, 2022 [1 favorite]
A moment of unintentional hilarity after Steve Jobs died was when some reporter was interviewing Steve Wozniak about the life of his friend, and asked something like "What was it like, working with a genius?" The look on Woz's face was absolutely priceless. You could tell he was warring inside between wanting to honor the memory of his friend and colleague, versus wanting to scream "The fuck? I was the genius! It was always me!"
Steve Jobs, like most other Silicon Valley leaders, was a genius at claiming credit for the hard work of others and using that personal reputation to acquire capital and loyalty, which he could then spend on more hard work by designers, engineers, and others, and use the fact that his name was what brought the money in to justify taking credit for their work, too. The people whose work the leader claims credit for are mostly content to go along with it, because it's a system that rewards them, too, by making sure they continue getting a portion of the resources that the leader doles out. The fiction of using a single person's name to stand for the work of their team is not necessarily a bad one, but never forget that it is a fiction, and most of these supposed "geniuses" achieved their position primarily through luck, hustle, and ruthlessness, rather than talent, hard work, and generosity.
posted by biogeo at 12:08 PM on April 5, 2022 [8 favorites]
Steve Jobs, like most other Silicon Valley leaders, was a genius at claiming credit for the hard work of others and using that personal reputation to acquire capital and loyalty, which he could then spend on more hard work by designers, engineers, and others, and use the fact that his name was what brought the money in to justify taking credit for their work, too. The people whose work the leader claims credit for are mostly content to go along with it, because it's a system that rewards them, too, by making sure they continue getting a portion of the resources that the leader doles out. The fiction of using a single person's name to stand for the work of their team is not necessarily a bad one, but never forget that it is a fiction, and most of these supposed "geniuses" achieved their position primarily through luck, hustle, and ruthlessness, rather than talent, hard work, and generosity.
posted by biogeo at 12:08 PM on April 5, 2022 [8 favorites]
Likewise for the tech companies themselves. Facebook didn't beat out Myspace, Livejournal, and the other social networks circa 2003-2005 by making a product that was better and easier to use, it did it by a considered process of social engineering, cultivating a temporary air of exclusivity by limiting adoption to students at select colleges to build up a sufficiently large user base, then leveraging the fact that those students had family who also would want to connect with them once membership was opened generally, then riding that momentum until their network had sucked up all the available oxygen and all their competitors had effectively died. There's a certain "genius" in that strategy, I suppose, but it's not a technological one, and it's not one that was predicated on delivering a superior product to the public.
posted by biogeo at 12:15 PM on April 5, 2022 [4 favorites]
posted by biogeo at 12:15 PM on April 5, 2022 [4 favorites]
Public radio might offer a good local alternative to commercial radio?
You can't really do ads on public radio, you can sponsor certain programs. In some ways that's good because you can get a target audience, but that show may only be on once a week.
Yep and even if you wanted to advertise in them (you don't), they'll charge an arm and a leg for the privilege
To get into the "weekend events" section of the paper, you have to commit to buying an ad every week for the full year. Dinner if you're a restaurant or movie theater, but not if you have a limited scheduler.
posted by CheeseDigestsAll at 12:46 PM on April 5, 2022 [1 favorite]
You can't really do ads on public radio, you can sponsor certain programs. In some ways that's good because you can get a target audience, but that show may only be on once a week.
Yep and even if you wanted to advertise in them (you don't), they'll charge an arm and a leg for the privilege
To get into the "weekend events" section of the paper, you have to commit to buying an ad every week for the full year. Dinner if you're a restaurant or movie theater, but not if you have a limited scheduler.
posted by CheeseDigestsAll at 12:46 PM on April 5, 2022 [1 favorite]
Like who is this Metaverse initiative aimed at?
I don't know, but it is telling that Zuck himself doesn't want to be a part of it. He's building himself a private country in Hawaii.
By the same token, Elon, Jeff and that other guy don't really want to go to Mars, they just want to get other people excited about it because it's good for the bottom line. If anyone ever does go to stay it'll be as miners, indentured to pay the fare.
posted by klanawa at 1:08 PM on April 5, 2022 [1 favorite]
I don't know, but it is telling that Zuck himself doesn't want to be a part of it. He's building himself a private country in Hawaii.
By the same token, Elon, Jeff and that other guy don't really want to go to Mars, they just want to get other people excited about it because it's good for the bottom line. If anyone ever does go to stay it'll be as miners, indentured to pay the fare.
posted by klanawa at 1:08 PM on April 5, 2022 [1 favorite]
The WaPo story is dated March 30; two days later: Facebook users angry after accounts locked for no reason (BBC) Facebook users around the world have been waking up to find themselves locked out of their accounts for no apparent reason.The message many received reads: "Your Facebook account was disabled because it did not follow our Community Standards. This decision can't be reversed."
In a tweet, Meta's Andy Stone said: "We're aware that some users are experiencing issues accessing their Facebook accounts and we are working to resolve them as quickly as possible."
He did not say how many were affected, or what the issue was.
posted by Iris Gambol at 6:21 PM on April 5, 2022 [1 favorite]
In a tweet, Meta's Andy Stone said: "We're aware that some users are experiencing issues accessing their Facebook accounts and we are working to resolve them as quickly as possible."
He did not say how many were affected, or what the issue was.
posted by Iris Gambol at 6:21 PM on April 5, 2022 [1 favorite]
Jokes on everyone then! I've unfollowed you all and didn't read the thread. G'night blue world!
posted by DeepSeaHaggis at 11:48 PM on April 5, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by DeepSeaHaggis at 11:48 PM on April 5, 2022 [1 favorite]
Steve Jobs was a raging asshole.
Yeah, but he never tried to destroy democracy.
(sent from my iDevice!!)
posted by valkane at 7:53 PM on April 6, 2022 [1 favorite]
Yeah, but he never tried to destroy democracy.
(sent from my iDevice!!)
posted by valkane at 7:53 PM on April 6, 2022 [1 favorite]
Facebook didn't beat out Myspace, Livejournal, and the other social networks circa 2003-2005 by making a product that was better and easier to use
Weeeeeel, let's give credit where it's due. Within the schools that it opened to during the gradual rollout, it succeeded on its merits. It absolutely was a better product than the other social networks circa late '04 / early '05. There was MySpace, which was pretty firmly established at the time, and Friendster had been around for a while (year?) and not gained traction, and then you had a whole bunch of blog-type platforms that didn't necessarily meet the modern criteria for "social networks" but served some of the same functions (Xynga, LiveJournal). Each of those existing services had basically maxed themselves out. MySpace had already become Deeply Uncool in my demographic, IIRC the general zeitgeist being that it was for highschoolers, not discerning university students. Also, it was just. so. ugly. (People get nostalgic about amateur web design today, but holy fuck was MySpace bad.)
So, yeah, when "The Facebook" became available, it kinda sold itself. It was easier to use, and the pages loaded faster, and the UI was cleaner, than the school's actual face book web page (which they had just rolled out like a semester or two before). And it... kinda did its job? and got out of the way? It was just a replacement for the official "face books" (and many people uploaded the exact same photo they sent to the school for the book), plus a status scroll that was essentially a series of AIM away messages ("studying", "dinner then rehearsal", "lab", "party at Joe's place"). And it was free, and it was only open to the campus community, and it let you limit your details to "friends" or "friends of friends".
It was useful for typical undergrad shit: find the name of the cute guy/girl from class, figure out where all your friends were hanging out (a pre-smartphone challenge), and—of course—check someone's relationship status (which famously contained the option of "It's Complicated"). And it made a pretty good phone/address book. (In the beginning you could even download all your friends' contact info to your local address book.)
If Zuckerberg had been a different person, and he had just looked at Facebook circa, maybe, mid-2005 and said "hey, let's not mess with a good thing," and it had stayed a semi-private/siloed campus social network for colleges, he probably could have made a comfortable living selling local ads on each instance, and we'd all be living in a slightly less shitty parallel universe.
posted by Kadin2048 at 12:29 AM on April 8, 2022
Weeeeeel, let's give credit where it's due. Within the schools that it opened to during the gradual rollout, it succeeded on its merits. It absolutely was a better product than the other social networks circa late '04 / early '05. There was MySpace, which was pretty firmly established at the time, and Friendster had been around for a while (year?) and not gained traction, and then you had a whole bunch of blog-type platforms that didn't necessarily meet the modern criteria for "social networks" but served some of the same functions (Xynga, LiveJournal). Each of those existing services had basically maxed themselves out. MySpace had already become Deeply Uncool in my demographic, IIRC the general zeitgeist being that it was for highschoolers, not discerning university students. Also, it was just. so. ugly. (People get nostalgic about amateur web design today, but holy fuck was MySpace bad.)
So, yeah, when "The Facebook" became available, it kinda sold itself. It was easier to use, and the pages loaded faster, and the UI was cleaner, than the school's actual face book web page (which they had just rolled out like a semester or two before). And it... kinda did its job? and got out of the way? It was just a replacement for the official "face books" (and many people uploaded the exact same photo they sent to the school for the book), plus a status scroll that was essentially a series of AIM away messages ("studying", "dinner then rehearsal", "lab", "party at Joe's place"). And it was free, and it was only open to the campus community, and it let you limit your details to "friends" or "friends of friends".
It was useful for typical undergrad shit: find the name of the cute guy/girl from class, figure out where all your friends were hanging out (a pre-smartphone challenge), and—of course—check someone's relationship status (which famously contained the option of "It's Complicated"). And it made a pretty good phone/address book. (In the beginning you could even download all your friends' contact info to your local address book.)
If Zuckerberg had been a different person, and he had just looked at Facebook circa, maybe, mid-2005 and said "hey, let's not mess with a good thing," and it had stayed a semi-private/siloed campus social network for colleges, he probably could have made a comfortable living selling local ads on each instance, and we'd all be living in a slightly less shitty parallel universe.
posted by Kadin2048 at 12:29 AM on April 8, 2022
Fair enough, "better and easier to use" are pretty subjective. I guess my opinion is that MySpace lost out to Facebook more due to being "deeply uncool" than due to any technological or usability problems. I recall someone in my dorm back in 2003 or so being super excited that Facebook was going to be expanding to our university soon, and this excitement was based not on any lack of features in her online life at the time that she expected Facebook to fill, but because Facebook was cool. I think it was also a bit of a status marker, that our school was going to get access to Facebook when many others hadn't yet.
I also recall that around the same time, I'd set up some web-based forum software for my residential community at my college. It got some decent use for a while, but Facebook pretty much killed it within a year or so. It was certainly more work to set up and maintain than a Facebook wall, but I was the one that did all that work, so for most everyone else it really wasn't very difficult to use, maybe even a bit easier than what Facebook offered at the time (organizational pages were still a year or two away I think). But, understandably, Facebook had the social network effect: everything else was already on there, so the incentive to log in to a separate site just for our forum was significantly reduced. Eventually it just died a quiet death due to being abandoned.
The devil's bargain that we all made in the mid-2000s by flocking to big platforms like Facebook, Twitter, etc., was rewarding companies that turned away from open standards. For a little while, it was possible that networks like Facebook, Twitter, and little niche sites like my college dorm forum, and maybe even sites like Metafilter, could have coexisted on more equal footing. The big social networks made a deliberate choice not to embrace the ethos of open standards that had built the Internet in the first place, choosing not to enable RSS feeds or work to develop other open standards that would have made it possible to access multiple social networks from a single hub. (Google, to its credit, was an exception for a while, adopting and supporting open protocols like RSS and Jabber, but clearly the current was too strong for Google to swim upstream against, and it seems like they've pretty much abandoned those at this point.) And I can't blame them, really: there would have been little profit in it, and under capitalism there is a disincentive to pursue public goods that aren't privately profitable.
posted by biogeo at 8:06 AM on April 8, 2022
I also recall that around the same time, I'd set up some web-based forum software for my residential community at my college. It got some decent use for a while, but Facebook pretty much killed it within a year or so. It was certainly more work to set up and maintain than a Facebook wall, but I was the one that did all that work, so for most everyone else it really wasn't very difficult to use, maybe even a bit easier than what Facebook offered at the time (organizational pages were still a year or two away I think). But, understandably, Facebook had the social network effect: everything else was already on there, so the incentive to log in to a separate site just for our forum was significantly reduced. Eventually it just died a quiet death due to being abandoned.
The devil's bargain that we all made in the mid-2000s by flocking to big platforms like Facebook, Twitter, etc., was rewarding companies that turned away from open standards. For a little while, it was possible that networks like Facebook, Twitter, and little niche sites like my college dorm forum, and maybe even sites like Metafilter, could have coexisted on more equal footing. The big social networks made a deliberate choice not to embrace the ethos of open standards that had built the Internet in the first place, choosing not to enable RSS feeds or work to develop other open standards that would have made it possible to access multiple social networks from a single hub. (Google, to its credit, was an exception for a while, adopting and supporting open protocols like RSS and Jabber, but clearly the current was too strong for Google to swim upstream against, and it seems like they've pretty much abandoned those at this point.) And I can't blame them, really: there would have been little profit in it, and under capitalism there is a disincentive to pursue public goods that aren't privately profitable.
posted by biogeo at 8:06 AM on April 8, 2022
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posted by Abehammerb Lincoln at 2:15 PM on April 4, 2022 [54 favorites]