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April 13, 2022 12:51 AM   Subscribe

The Rumble Strip podcast (via 99% Invisible) talks about Town Meeting Day in Vermont, a public holiday when everyone gets the day off work to make sure they have the chance to talk out the issues facing the town and decide how they want to spend their money.
posted by adrianhon (16 comments total) 13 users marked this as a favorite
 
Prime Jessamyn material right here
posted by wheelieman at 2:31 AM on April 13, 2022


Pandemic-related changes have illuminated that this model probably isn't as inclusive as some advocates want to say it is, and likely means that the needs of a large portion of the community - those who aren't able to take the time off to attend - isn't being heard:

Some 80% of communities used a similar pandemic-year state law in 2021 to replace shoulder-to-shoulder decision-making with ballot voting.

[...]

The change to ballots increased voting in some communities.

“Last year we had the largest participation probably in the town’s history,” said Danville Town Clerk Wendy Somers, who had mailed ballots to all active voters.

Marlboro Town Clerk Forrest Holzapfel saw his numbers “almost double, which calls into question how inclusive the in-person traditional floor vote actually is.”

posted by NotMyselfRightNow at 3:53 AM on April 13, 2022 [7 favorites]


Yeah, this is yet another "direct democracy" system that sounds great (hey, the town is getting together to discuss their ideas and issues) that after actual analysis turns out to be rather shitty - it turns out that not everyone can make the meeting, even if it is a holiday, for a number of reasons; and the system rewards the motivated and organized (see also: why NIMBY is a massive problem.)
posted by NoxAeternum at 5:09 AM on April 13, 2022 [5 favorites]


I have been listening to the episode about the dairy farmer. I found it through the episode about Finn Rooney. What a wonderful show, I feel more human just listening to these stories.

thanks for posting, and thanks to Erica for doing this show!
posted by bxvr at 5:14 AM on April 13, 2022 [3 favorites]


the system rewards the motivated and organized

Could you expand on the problem that this presents?
posted by zamboni at 5:21 AM on April 13, 2022 [1 favorite]


Here is one problem with a political system that rewards the motived and organized. I have ADHD. I struggle with motivation and organization. Does that mean I should be excluded from the process (because it is too hard for me) or get a ballot that makes it much easier for my voice to heard? Democracy does not work best face-to-face for everyone.
posted by Bella Donna at 5:29 AM on April 13, 2022 [5 favorites]


Town Meeting is the closest thing this country has to actual democracy, in my opinion.
My very small town in NH recently moved our town meeting from Tuesday night to Saturday morning in order to allow more participation. Voting for town officers and certain issues like zoning changes takes place all day the preceding Tuesday at the town hall by secret ballot just like any state or federal election. Both are handicapped accessible. Last year we held town meeting under a tent, with social distancing, in the summer. This year the meeting was back in our small town hall. Because of covid, I stayed away but still voted on Tuesday.
I hear Bella Donna and I have no answer for her. Like the rest of this country's attempt at democracy, town meeting is imperfect, but it's the best we got right now.
posted by Hobgoblin at 5:51 AM on April 13, 2022


the system rewards the motivated and organized

I would also add that it especially rewards those with time to spare.

In my town (not the one listed in my profile; one of the affluent Boston suburbs known for good schools and quality of life), this means that most town governance is done by well-to-do retirees. Those who don't have time, motivation, or organization to get involved in town politics find their concerns ignored and unaddressed.

In principle, this means that young families, people who rent their houses, people whose children go to public school, and people for whom food and shelter are precarious, aren't always having their needs met, and they don't have the means to get involved and advocate for themselves by serving on town committees.

In practice, this means that a couple of our very well-used town playgrounds have had severely broken and rusty equipment for years and parents have had to raise hundreds of thousands of dollars themselves to hopefully fix them one day; that some sidewalks are so messed up by tree roots as to be unusable by stroller, wheelchair, or those with mobility issues; that proposed affordable and denser housing developments are repeatedly shot down because NIMBYism rules the day (everyone agrees that there should be more and cheaper housing, but not if it affects my house value); and that valuable public school programs including arts and advanced mathematics have been cut from the budget.
posted by msbrauer at 5:56 AM on April 13, 2022 [16 favorites]


the system rewards the motivated and organized

Could you expand on the problem that this presents?


Because those things require time and money, both of which are typically more available for wealthier, White, white collar or retired professionals.

With respect to OP, the line in the post - a public holiday when everyone gets the day off work - is bullshit. A huge portion of the workforce isn't in a position to ask for the day off, or be able to be granted it given the societal necessity of their work.
posted by NotMyselfRightNow at 6:27 AM on April 13, 2022 [4 favorites]


Vermont: We think meeting your neighbors face to face fosters dialog and community building

Metafilter: No! Move everything online, see how well that's worked out!?


In rural communities, many lack access to affordable high-speed internet. If the equity problems are centered around the ability to attend meetings, why not change the current law from unpaid leave to paid leave for the day? (In addition to expanding and discounting rural broadband for those who can't attend in person.)
posted by gwint at 6:58 AM on April 13, 2022 [4 favorites]


Thanks for highlighting the accessibility problems with these town hall meetings – I hadn't been aware of them.

I don't live in Vermont and don't have much experience with this kind of direct democracy, so I found it special to hear from the people who went to them about how they were run and why they felt they produced good decisions.
posted by adrianhon at 6:59 AM on April 13, 2022 [4 favorites]


I live in Vermont and my town has been having voting by Australian ballot instead of in-person town meetings during the pandemic. A lot more people have voted, but the problem with doing it this way is that people are less likely to really understand what they're voting on. At town meeting, the selectboard can explain its proposed budget and people can ask questions about any of the line items. Other items to be voted on can be explained by the selectboard or by the people who petitioned to get them included and anyone there can speak about the issue and try to convince other people to vote for or against. People who don't understand something about the issue can ask questions. When voting is by Australian ballot, there's an informational meeting beforehand where in theory that kind of discussion can take place, but in our town participation in these meetings has been very low - even fewer people than what we see at town meeting. So the reality is that most of the people voting are voting based on their gut feeling about the issue or on what they think they've heard from other people about it, not on any real understanding. (Of course, even the people who come to town meeting don't necessarily listen closely to all the discussion and the arguments and end up casting an informed vote.)

I'm not sure how to get more people to participate and also make sure they understand what they're voting on. Some towns have moved their town meeting to Saturday or scheduled it for evening so more people can attend, but it hasn't resulted in better attendance. Those towns have generally seen participation drop even more. So it's not just having to work that keeps people from coming.
posted by Redstart at 7:05 AM on April 13, 2022 [4 favorites]


As someone also with ADHD, the burden here specifically isn't overwhelming. I am impressed with the quality of the populace in this instance, who has a tradition of involvement. I suspect that it doesn't scale well or transfer well to places that have never done this. Which is why places with different populations and resources do things more by ballot than meeting.

Do you need to be motivated? Absolutely. The question is how valuable is it to you? There is no shortage of people who lack motivation to even use the ballot, let alone meeting.

It sounds to me like that town is doing well enough that I would definitely lack motivation. And I'd be totally ok with that.
posted by 2N2222 at 7:10 AM on April 13, 2022 [3 favorites]


I laugh every time someone says they want "everyone's voice to be heard."
posted by jenfullmoon at 7:57 AM on April 13, 2022 [4 favorites]


I started listening to this this morning, and like many above, got really annoyed at the romanticization going on here. I currently live in a city in NH; cities don't have town meetings.

Others have pointed out the access issues--town meetings can be rough for people with small children, people with disabilities (even if it's wheelchair accessible, what if you're just unable to sit through an 8 hour meeting?), people with odd working hours (OK, everyone "gets off" for town meeting day...what if you have a shift at the local hospital that day?) etc. A lot of towns around here have switched to what's called "SB2" (Australian ballot in VT, as per the podcast)for this reason: you still get to have the debates in person, but the actual voting takes place via a ballot on election day.

I got about to the part about the library (more jessamyn content!); specifically the heartwarming (?) story about how the librarians (rightly, in my opinion!) demanded a warrant from the FBI for them to search the library computers when a local girl went missing. The response from the town was to threaten to cut the library budget in retaliation. Again, this was presented as heartwarming/good...because a little old lady got up and spoke about the 4th Amendment, and people voted to keep the library budget intact, so everything was fine. Not going to go into details about warrant articles here, etc., but it was unclear where the original budget number came from, who suggested slashing it exactly, and so this could theoretically happen under a city form of government, too, but generally, in my experience, I haven't seen that sort of personal retaliation in the budget processes I've been involved with.

And, just one illustration of how this can go terribly wrong happened in Croyden, NH this year. Basically, two things happened: first, the local Free Staters decided to make a move to slash the local school budget, and didn't publicize their plan. Second, it snowed, which meant that only about 20 voters made it to the meeting. The Free Staters were the only ones who showed in force, because (1), snow, and (2) people had no clue that this was going to happen, so the budget was cut in half.

Croyden only has an elementary school; it pays tuition to other districts to send their students there for Middle and High School. The approved budget is not enough to run the elementary school and meet the tuition already set in contracts for the older students.

Currently, the only way to fix this is to have another meeting. Under state law, half of the registered voters in town--not half the people who show up to the meeting--have to vote to approve the new budget at the special meeting. So it took about 20 people to slash the budget to shreds; it's going to take about 275 to reinstate it.
posted by damayanti at 8:37 AM on April 13, 2022 [13 favorites]


The needs of the unmotivated and disorganized have value, too.
posted by rhizome at 11:29 AM on April 13, 2022 [2 favorites]


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