Mind boggling diarrhea
April 13, 2022 6:55 AM Subscribe
Lukewarm on the heels of the Bon Appétit Test Kitchen's epic meltdown (previously on Metafilter), and last year's seafood scare, fermentation bro Brad Leone is once again giving everyone botulism with improperly-cured pastrami.
Mod note: There are many threads to discuss animal rights and veganism; this is not that thread.
posted by Eyebrows McGee (staff) at 7:39 AM on April 13, 2022 [52 favorites]
posted by Eyebrows McGee (staff) at 7:39 AM on April 13, 2022 [52 favorites]
Metafilter: this ‘pastrami’ could kill you if you attempt [to] make it yourself.
posted by stevil at 7:44 AM on April 13, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by stevil at 7:44 AM on April 13, 2022 [1 favorite]
I am really surprised Bon Appétit is standing behind this video. I worked for an admittedly more conservative food magazine but our test kitchen had trouble even getting raw eggs into anything - all our recipes eventually had a heating stage, like beating the egg yolks for tiramisù with sugar in a bowl over boiling water.
posted by warriorqueen at 7:45 AM on April 13, 2022 [11 favorites]
posted by warriorqueen at 7:45 AM on April 13, 2022 [11 favorites]
A lot of people turned against Sohla after her "For some reason, people like watching a big dumb white guy" comment about Brad Leone but *waves hands at post*
posted by simmering octagon at 7:48 AM on April 13, 2022 [62 favorites]
posted by simmering octagon at 7:48 AM on April 13, 2022 [62 favorites]
Long enough ago that I don't remember much of the context, I remember a TV show about projects in which the host heavily pronounced the "L" in "soldering", and I turned that right off. I didn't need to be watching people who's time in improv class or at the gym was somehow setting them up to teach me about crafts or tech.
It seems like YouTube has become that in spades: clueless gits who look pretty and can convince a cew to shoot video spouting off about things in which they, and their writing staff, have absolutely zero expertise.
And I have to wonder what it is about humanity that draws people to people who, at best, are malicious through their ignorance, and at worst are deliberately so, but have a pretty smile. How does our mass media get filled with this?
Because it squeezes the competence out of the public sphere.
posted by straw at 7:51 AM on April 13, 2022 [16 favorites]
It seems like YouTube has become that in spades: clueless gits who look pretty and can convince a cew to shoot video spouting off about things in which they, and their writing staff, have absolutely zero expertise.
And I have to wonder what it is about humanity that draws people to people who, at best, are malicious through their ignorance, and at worst are deliberately so, but have a pretty smile. How does our mass media get filled with this?
Because it squeezes the competence out of the public sphere.
posted by straw at 7:51 AM on April 13, 2022 [16 favorites]
I remember a TV show about projects in which the host heavily pronounced the "L" in "soldering"
Was it a non-US show?
posted by zamboni at 7:57 AM on April 13, 2022 [25 favorites]
Was it a non-US show?
posted by zamboni at 7:57 AM on April 13, 2022 [25 favorites]
I am really surprised Bon Appétit is standing behind this video.
My bet is they made a business decision. Better to grit teeth and power through this given everyone’s short attention spans, than to admit this guy screwed up again. He probably generates a lot of views and they’re betting their “don’t try this at home,” CYA will protect them sufficiently.
It’s a pretty amoral position, but that’s par.
posted by leotrotsky at 7:57 AM on April 13, 2022 [4 favorites]
My bet is they made a business decision. Better to grit teeth and power through this given everyone’s short attention spans, than to admit this guy screwed up again. He probably generates a lot of views and they’re betting their “don’t try this at home,” CYA will protect them sufficiently.
It’s a pretty amoral position, but that’s par.
posted by leotrotsky at 7:57 AM on April 13, 2022 [4 favorites]
→
People who pronounce things differently can be competent. I'm from Scotland, and I pronounce it like "folder", not "fodder".
But missing out the nitrite from wet cured meat ends up with dead people, no matter how you pronounce it
posted by scruss at 7:59 AM on April 13, 2022 [61 favorites]
a TV show about projects in which the host heavily pronounced the "L" in "soldering", and I turned that right off
People who pronounce things differently can be competent. I'm from Scotland, and I pronounce it like "folder", not "fodder".
But missing out the nitrite from wet cured meat ends up with dead people, no matter how you pronounce it
posted by scruss at 7:59 AM on April 13, 2022 [61 favorites]
I've gotten comfortable making fruit and vegetable ferments; I make kimchi regularly and have fermented peaches, limes, pickles, all sorts of stuff. It's nearly foolproof; as long as you follow the basic instructions about salt and air the lactobacillus way outcompetes the botulinum and you have delicious sour safe food.
But fermenting meat scares me. Not even exactly sure why. The obvious concern is parasites, but modern beef and pork is generally parasite free and as long as you cook the thing at some point I think it's mostly not a worry. Maybe it's the worry there's not enough food for whatever harmless bacteria you're growing to crowd out the dangerous ones. What kind of fermentation do you expect for pastrami, anyway?
The one fermented meat dish I'm tempted to make is carne adovada. Modern recipes don't ferment, you just marinate overnight in the fridge and add a little acid to get a bit of sour. But historically it was a lactofermented pork. More than a little scared to try though.
posted by Nelson at 8:00 AM on April 13, 2022 [5 favorites]
But fermenting meat scares me. Not even exactly sure why. The obvious concern is parasites, but modern beef and pork is generally parasite free and as long as you cook the thing at some point I think it's mostly not a worry. Maybe it's the worry there's not enough food for whatever harmless bacteria you're growing to crowd out the dangerous ones. What kind of fermentation do you expect for pastrami, anyway?
The one fermented meat dish I'm tempted to make is carne adovada. Modern recipes don't ferment, you just marinate overnight in the fridge and add a little acid to get a bit of sour. But historically it was a lactofermented pork. More than a little scared to try though.
posted by Nelson at 8:00 AM on April 13, 2022 [5 favorites]
I am really surprised Bon Appétit is standing behind this video.
After the way they decided to throw out all of the goodwill and excitement they built up during Early Pandemic like so much too-salty brine, I'm not.
Brad Leone strikes me as one of those dudes who thinks he's stumbled on some mystical substance unknown to science when he discovers plants can do more than just taste nice. I'm waiting for the day he makes a video about how he doesn't put "unnecessary chemicals" into his body.
posted by fight or flight at 8:02 AM on April 13, 2022 [5 favorites]
After the way they decided to throw out all of the goodwill and excitement they built up during Early Pandemic like so much too-salty brine, I'm not.
Brad Leone strikes me as one of those dudes who thinks he's stumbled on some mystical substance unknown to science when he discovers plants can do more than just taste nice. I'm waiting for the day he makes a video about how he doesn't put "unnecessary chemicals" into his body.
posted by fight or flight at 8:02 AM on April 13, 2022 [5 favorites]
It seems like YouTube has become that in spades: clueless gits who look pretty and can convince a cew to shoot video spouting off about things in which they, and their writing staff, have absolutely zero expertise
Yeah but if you add some mandolin music and handclaps it's all legit, right?
posted by JoeZydeco at 8:06 AM on April 13, 2022 [9 favorites]
Yeah but if you add some mandolin music and handclaps it's all legit, right?
posted by JoeZydeco at 8:06 AM on April 13, 2022 [9 favorites]
Making and smoking cured meats became a personal hobby while homebound during COVID, and having had a substantial degree of delicious success making pastrami at home, I was curious about what went wrong here.
As a bit of background, pastrami is usually made with sodium nitrite, contained in pink curing salts (aka "Prague powder #1"). For many years, however, manufacturers have alternately used concentrated celery powder (which is also high in nitrite) instead of curing salts to state that their meats are "uncured", but the fact of the matter is that the curing process with commercial celery powder is functionally identical to that of typical curing salts. That's all fine, as long as the nitrites from whatever source spend enough time with the meat to cure it.
But Leone's process here uses six cups of celery *juice* instead of a concentrated curing powder. Which is very unlikely to have the same level of nitrites necessary to protect the meat against botulism. In addition, he doesn't boil the brine, increasing the possibility that the brisket is being soaked in other potential contaminants for a week.
Using the appropriate amount of nitrites in the brine to cure and protect the meat from botulism results in a distinctive and obvious pink color that you're doubtlessly familiar with from ham, bacon, pastrami and even hot dogs. That color is... noticeably missing from the pastrami in his instagram post. The "pink" on the edges appears to be a smoke ring from the smoking process and not adequate curing - the center of the meat is brownish and really does not appear to be cured.
What's weird here is that the risk in his process is so completely unnecessary. There's no obvious flavor or health benefit to be had by using celery juice instead of proper curing salts or powders, nor by avoiding boiling the brine.
So, while I would still recommend home-curing and smoking for the adventurous - the final result can be far more succulent, flavorful and tender than what you would find at the deli - it really doesn't look like his approach is the way to do it. I recommend this Spruce Eats pastrami brine recipe as one that's simple, safe and very likely to result in success.
posted by eschatfische at 8:08 AM on April 13, 2022 [60 favorites]
As a bit of background, pastrami is usually made with sodium nitrite, contained in pink curing salts (aka "Prague powder #1"). For many years, however, manufacturers have alternately used concentrated celery powder (which is also high in nitrite) instead of curing salts to state that their meats are "uncured", but the fact of the matter is that the curing process with commercial celery powder is functionally identical to that of typical curing salts. That's all fine, as long as the nitrites from whatever source spend enough time with the meat to cure it.
But Leone's process here uses six cups of celery *juice* instead of a concentrated curing powder. Which is very unlikely to have the same level of nitrites necessary to protect the meat against botulism. In addition, he doesn't boil the brine, increasing the possibility that the brisket is being soaked in other potential contaminants for a week.
Using the appropriate amount of nitrites in the brine to cure and protect the meat from botulism results in a distinctive and obvious pink color that you're doubtlessly familiar with from ham, bacon, pastrami and even hot dogs. That color is... noticeably missing from the pastrami in his instagram post. The "pink" on the edges appears to be a smoke ring from the smoking process and not adequate curing - the center of the meat is brownish and really does not appear to be cured.
What's weird here is that the risk in his process is so completely unnecessary. There's no obvious flavor or health benefit to be had by using celery juice instead of proper curing salts or powders, nor by avoiding boiling the brine.
So, while I would still recommend home-curing and smoking for the adventurous - the final result can be far more succulent, flavorful and tender than what you would find at the deli - it really doesn't look like his approach is the way to do it. I recommend this Spruce Eats pastrami brine recipe as one that's simple, safe and very likely to result in success.
posted by eschatfische at 8:08 AM on April 13, 2022 [60 favorites]
Brad Leone strikes me as one of those dudes who thinks he's stumbled on some mystical substance unknown to science when he discovers plants can do more than just taste nice.
It’s the solipsism of the self-absorbed. “I didn’t know a thing, so nobody knew a thing. I must tell the world!”
Meanwhile everyone who already knew the thing rolls their eyes and continues plugging away competently. And the idiot who just wandered in gets a book deal and a tv show as the ‘new face’ of whatever they just learned about.
posted by leotrotsky at 8:09 AM on April 13, 2022 [38 favorites]
It’s the solipsism of the self-absorbed. “I didn’t know a thing, so nobody knew a thing. I must tell the world!”
Meanwhile everyone who already knew the thing rolls their eyes and continues plugging away competently. And the idiot who just wandered in gets a book deal and a tv show as the ‘new face’ of whatever they just learned about.
posted by leotrotsky at 8:09 AM on April 13, 2022 [38 favorites]
I have spent a lot of time learning how to do a lot of home food preservation, and the trickiest part is knowing where you can bend the rules. And, like, for a video like this - "I, the expert, am going to show you, a novice, how to do this potentially risky procedure" - you really need to err on the side of caution.
I mean, the Ball Blue Book (sort of the canning bible) right up front says "follow these recipes TO THE LETTER or YOU WILL DIE." Which is obviously not true, but it's important to know that certain ingredients are important (acids and salts) and process is realllly important. You can change up the spices and flavorings, but knowing that, say, pink salt is kind of a necessary ingredient is important to point out.
But you have to actually learn some things to be able to start tweaking methods safely, so starting from a conservative set of basics is important.
posted by backseatpilot at 8:14 AM on April 13, 2022 [3 favorites]
I mean, the Ball Blue Book (sort of the canning bible) right up front says "follow these recipes TO THE LETTER or YOU WILL DIE." Which is obviously not true, but it's important to know that certain ingredients are important (acids and salts) and process is realllly important. You can change up the spices and flavorings, but knowing that, say, pink salt is kind of a necessary ingredient is important to point out.
But you have to actually learn some things to be able to start tweaking methods safely, so starting from a conservative set of basics is important.
posted by backseatpilot at 8:14 AM on April 13, 2022 [3 favorites]
Yeah but if you add some mandolin music and handclaps it's all legit, right?
Tantacrul
posted by snuffleupagus at 8:16 AM on April 13, 2022 [12 favorites]
Tantacrul
posted by snuffleupagus at 8:16 AM on April 13, 2022 [12 favorites]
I hadn't heard/read that comment from Sohla el Waylly and it makes me love her even more.
My first intro to Brad was one of Claire Saffitz's videos where he waltzed through being a super confident white guy who was certain he knew how to use a tool he had no experience with. I've watched a few videos where he was paired with someone else I wanted to see work, but other than that I've avoided him as much as possible. I thought he brought nothing but annoyance to the table, but apparently he brings measurable risk of bodily harm as well.
posted by obfuscation at 8:17 AM on April 13, 2022 [5 favorites]
My first intro to Brad was one of Claire Saffitz's videos where he waltzed through being a super confident white guy who was certain he knew how to use a tool he had no experience with. I've watched a few videos where he was paired with someone else I wanted to see work, but other than that I've avoided him as much as possible. I thought he brought nothing but annoyance to the table, but apparently he brings measurable risk of bodily harm as well.
posted by obfuscation at 8:17 AM on April 13, 2022 [5 favorites]
I don't really get the very intense dislike of Brad... it's seemed clear to me that his "role" in the BA universe has always been to be that of the reasonably likeable doofus. I don't really doubt that most of the things that people seem to dislike about him is likely the character he is supposed to play.
That said this is a huge and stupid fail on BAs part... if they do have an expert reviewing these videos then there really needs to be some tough questions about how this video got out into the wild.
posted by cirhosis at 8:23 AM on April 13, 2022 [3 favorites]
That said this is a huge and stupid fail on BAs part... if they do have an expert reviewing these videos then there really needs to be some tough questions about how this video got out into the wild.
posted by cirhosis at 8:23 AM on April 13, 2022 [3 favorites]
When did BA shift from portraying Brad as the show's doofy Andy Dwyer type to someone you should listen to about anything remotely related to safety?
Josh Weissman, perfect homemade pastrami.
posted by snuffleupagus at 8:24 AM on April 13, 2022 [7 favorites]
Josh Weissman, perfect homemade pastrami.
posted by snuffleupagus at 8:24 AM on April 13, 2022 [7 favorites]
There's no obvious flavor or health benefit to be had by using celery juice instead of proper curing salts or powders, nor by avoiding boiling the brine.
Nitrites are heavily responsible for the probable cancer risk of preserved meats so it would presumably be a health benefit to use less except not a net health benefit with the disease risks which is why they’re still used in the first place.
posted by atoxyl at 8:26 AM on April 13, 2022 [2 favorites]
Nitrites are heavily responsible for the probable cancer risk of preserved meats so it would presumably be a health benefit to use less except not a net health benefit with the disease risks which is why they’re still used in the first place.
posted by atoxyl at 8:26 AM on April 13, 2022 [2 favorites]
I remember a TV show about projects in which the host heavily pronounced the "L" in "soldering"
Oh dear god, have I been pronouncing "soldering" wrong all my life?
*checks dictionary*
... no, I'm just British. Phew, I knew that already.
TIL that in the US, "solder" doesn't rhyme with "folder". (Er, unless you have a silent "L" in that too...?)
posted by ManyLeggedCreature at 8:26 AM on April 13, 2022 [37 favorites]
Oh dear god, have I been pronouncing "soldering" wrong all my life?
*checks dictionary*
... no, I'm just British. Phew, I knew that already.
TIL that in the US, "solder" doesn't rhyme with "folder". (Er, unless you have a silent "L" in that too...?)
posted by ManyLeggedCreature at 8:26 AM on April 13, 2022 [37 favorites]
My first intro to Brad was one of Claire Saffitz's videos where he waltzed through being a super confident white guy who was certain he knew how to use a tool he had no experience with.
This is why I hate this guy. Super rude, condescending, sexist, white dude who makes more money than competent people like Claire Saffitz. I know there's tons of them out there but he really represents that demo well. His appearances on her videos were the worst part.
posted by tiny frying pan at 8:29 AM on April 13, 2022 [19 favorites]
This is why I hate this guy. Super rude, condescending, sexist, white dude who makes more money than competent people like Claire Saffitz. I know there's tons of them out there but he really represents that demo well. His appearances on her videos were the worst part.
posted by tiny frying pan at 8:29 AM on April 13, 2022 [19 favorites]
I'm not defending the video or recipe at all, but the titular "mind boggling diarrhea" quote is pretty clearly fake, as it was made five days after the video was posted and the recipe calls for a week in the fridge plus many hours of cooking. Media reporting obviously trolling comments as if they are legit because they make good quotes seems to be more and more common these days.
posted by ssg at 8:37 AM on April 13, 2022 [19 favorites]
posted by ssg at 8:37 AM on April 13, 2022 [19 favorites]
Nitrites are heavily responsible for the probable cancer risk of preserved meats so it would presumably be a health benefit to use less except not a net health benefit with the disease risks which is why they’re still used in the first place.
This whole discussion made me wonder about the "uncured, no nitrites added" processed meat I prefer to purchase, as I have heard about the risk from nitrites, and good news! I don't have to worry about that anymore! Why? Because it's bullshit label trickery. :\
posted by Rock Steady at 8:43 AM on April 13, 2022 [14 favorites]
This whole discussion made me wonder about the "uncured, no nitrites added" processed meat I prefer to purchase, as I have heard about the risk from nitrites, and good news! I don't have to worry about that anymore! Why? Because it's bullshit label trickery. :\
posted by Rock Steady at 8:43 AM on April 13, 2022 [14 favorites]
the titular "mind boggling diarrhea" quote is pretty clearly fake
OK, but Brad's reply is peak.....Brad. Like, there are chads, and then there are Brads.
"I've never gotten sick from any of my...experiments....gastrointestinal issues can come from all sorts of things. Stay hydrated ✌️❤️"
posted by snuffleupagus at 8:43 AM on April 13, 2022 [7 favorites]
OK, but Brad's reply is peak.....Brad. Like, there are chads, and then there are Brads.
"I've never gotten sick from any of my...experiments....gastrointestinal issues can come from all sorts of things. Stay hydrated ✌️❤️"
posted by snuffleupagus at 8:43 AM on April 13, 2022 [7 favorites]
I think Brad Leone is kind of a doofus, but I don't know why everyone is automatically trusting the expertise of “food antagonist” Joe Rosenthal. He just seems to be some dude with an Instagram page and and obsession with taking down food celebrities.
My understanding is that curing salt does somewhat lessen the chance of botulism, but is mostly used for color and flavor. (Botulism is also very rare -- about 20 or case cases a year in the US.)
There are plenty of corned beef recipes out there that don't include sodium nitrite. (Pastrami is basically just smoked corned beef.) Nothing is being fermented here -- you're wet brining something with tons of salt, then cooking the hell out of it. Sure, there is probably some degree of risk, but no more so than many, many other recipes.
More skepticism of Neo-Gawker and this Rosenthal guy is probably warranted.
posted by neroli at 8:45 AM on April 13, 2022 [10 favorites]
My understanding is that curing salt does somewhat lessen the chance of botulism, but is mostly used for color and flavor. (Botulism is also very rare -- about 20 or case cases a year in the US.)
There are plenty of corned beef recipes out there that don't include sodium nitrite. (Pastrami is basically just smoked corned beef.) Nothing is being fermented here -- you're wet brining something with tons of salt, then cooking the hell out of it. Sure, there is probably some degree of risk, but no more so than many, many other recipes.
More skepticism of Neo-Gawker and this Rosenthal guy is probably warranted.
posted by neroli at 8:45 AM on April 13, 2022 [10 favorites]
I don't really get the very intense dislike of Brad... it's seemed clear to me that his "role" in the BA universe has always been to be that of the reasonably likeable doofus. I don't really doubt that most of the things that people seem to dislike about him is likely the character he is supposed to play.
The problem appears to be that he's not "playing a character", but in fact is that person in real life.
Huge difference between being the loveable oaf who gets corrected by the expert, and presenting actually dangerous information without correction.
Huge difference between being someone willing to be corrected and admit they're a doofus, and someone who argues vehemently on Twitter with people.
posted by explosion at 8:49 AM on April 13, 2022 [6 favorites]
The problem appears to be that he's not "playing a character", but in fact is that person in real life.
Huge difference between being the loveable oaf who gets corrected by the expert, and presenting actually dangerous information without correction.
Huge difference between being someone willing to be corrected and admit they're a doofus, and someone who argues vehemently on Twitter with people.
posted by explosion at 8:49 AM on April 13, 2022 [6 favorites]
Hahaaa!
"Bruh, you gave me the botulism!"
"Stay hydrated ✌️❤️"
Dan Savage used to drive me insane pronouncing it "vunerable." One day I learned that you don't say the L and that I was myself exactly the same as all those people I'd spent my life scoffing at for pronouncing the T in often. That was a sad, sad day.
posted by Don Pepino at 8:50 AM on April 13, 2022 [7 favorites]
"Bruh, you gave me the botulism!"
"Stay hydrated ✌️❤️"
Dan Savage used to drive me insane pronouncing it "vunerable." One day I learned that you don't say the L and that I was myself exactly the same as all those people I'd spent my life scoffing at for pronouncing the T in often. That was a sad, sad day.
posted by Don Pepino at 8:50 AM on April 13, 2022 [7 favorites]
Because it's bullshit label trickery.
Damnit. I came here to mock other people, not to have my precious illusions dashed!
posted by MrJM at 8:58 AM on April 13, 2022 [8 favorites]
Damnit. I came here to mock other people, not to have my precious illusions dashed!
posted by MrJM at 8:58 AM on April 13, 2022 [8 favorites]
That was a sad, sad day.
The exciting thing about language (especially one as chaotic and changeable as English) is that you can both be right!
posted by aramaic at 8:59 AM on April 13, 2022 [14 favorites]
The exciting thing about language (especially one as chaotic and changeable as English) is that you can both be right!
posted by aramaic at 8:59 AM on April 13, 2022 [14 favorites]
you don't say the L
You certainly do here. Although it gets squished to something like 'vulnerbul.' See also 'vulns' for 'vulnerabilities' in cybersecurity.
METAFILTER: Stay hydrated ✌️❤️
posted by snuffleupagus at 8:59 AM on April 13, 2022 [23 favorites]
You certainly do here. Although it gets squished to something like 'vulnerbul.' See also 'vulns' for 'vulnerabilities' in cybersecurity.
METAFILTER: Stay hydrated ✌️❤️
posted by snuffleupagus at 8:59 AM on April 13, 2022 [23 favorites]
METAFILTER: Stay hydrated ✌️❤️
Well, sure, but only because MetaFilter: Mind boggling diarrhea.
posted by The Bellman at 9:06 AM on April 13, 2022 [16 favorites]
Well, sure, but only because MetaFilter: Mind boggling diarrhea.
posted by The Bellman at 9:06 AM on April 13, 2022 [16 favorites]
Dan Savage used to drive me insane pronouncing it "vunerable." One day I learned that you don't say the L
Every trot is valid, and you do you, but here's what the OED has:
Brit. /ˈvʌln(ə)rəbl/, U.S. /ˈvəlnər(ə)bəl/
Do you use one of the dialects with extensive L-vocalization?
posted by zamboni at 9:10 AM on April 13, 2022 [4 favorites]
Every trot is valid, and you do you, but here's what the OED has:
Brit. /ˈvʌln(ə)rəbl/, U.S. /ˈvəlnər(ə)bəl/
Do you use one of the dialects with extensive L-vocalization?
posted by zamboni at 9:10 AM on April 13, 2022 [4 favorites]
I do, but the difference is subtle.
posted by NoThisIsPatrick at 9:17 AM on April 13, 2022 [9 favorites]
posted by NoThisIsPatrick at 9:17 AM on April 13, 2022 [9 favorites]
Just dropping in to point out that the concentration of nitrite permitted under the law has no effect on Clostridium botulinum, salmonella or E. coli.
posted by slkinsey at 9:22 AM on April 13, 2022 [5 favorites]
posted by slkinsey at 9:22 AM on April 13, 2022 [5 favorites]
I'd love to read more about that slkinsey, it's certainly common wisdom that the nitrites inhibit botulinum. For that matter, I'd love to read any well informed science-oriented discussion of traditional food curing.
The fermented meat product I eat the most is salami. The Wikipedia article makes it sound like that's a lactobacillus fermentation although there's some other stuff along for the ride.
posted by Nelson at 9:32 AM on April 13, 2022 [1 favorite]
The fermented meat product I eat the most is salami. The Wikipedia article makes it sound like that's a lactobacillus fermentation although there's some other stuff along for the ride.
posted by Nelson at 9:32 AM on April 13, 2022 [1 favorite]
I haven’t watched a BA since the blowup, Brad still got that egg stapled to the wall?
posted by rodlymight at 9:38 AM on April 13, 2022 [3 favorites]
posted by rodlymight at 9:38 AM on April 13, 2022 [3 favorites]
Just dropping in to point out that the concentration of nitrite permitted under the law has no effect on Clostridium botulinum, salmonella or E. coli.
Are you going to provide any kind of evidence for your "dropping in" claim that contradicts quite a lot of actual evidence?
posted by ssg at 9:38 AM on April 13, 2022 [2 favorites]
Are you going to provide any kind of evidence for your "dropping in" claim that contradicts quite a lot of actual evidence?
posted by ssg at 9:38 AM on April 13, 2022 [2 favorites]
Here's an article reporting on the study that found no effect on botulism. The article quotes the conclusion of the article:
posted by slkinsey at 9:40 AM on April 13, 2022 [2 favorites]
“The results show that there is no change in levels of inoculated C botulinum over the curing process, which implies that the action of nitrite during curing is not toxic to C botulinum spores at levels of 150ppm [parts per million] ingoing nitrite and below.”150ppm is the legal limit for nitrites.
posted by slkinsey at 9:40 AM on April 13, 2022 [2 favorites]
The National Center for Home Food Preservation is a great resource. (I'm in Canada but the US Extension stuff is really great.)
It has a whole section, with citations, on smoking and curing meat.
posted by warriorqueen at 9:42 AM on April 13, 2022 [5 favorites]
It has a whole section, with citations, on smoking and curing meat.
posted by warriorqueen at 9:42 AM on April 13, 2022 [5 favorites]
Give me pastrami or and give me death!
posted by Abehammerb Lincoln at 9:51 AM on April 13, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by Abehammerb Lincoln at 9:51 AM on April 13, 2022 [1 favorite]
Here's an article reporting on the study that found no effect on botulism.
That's not actually what they claim the study found though — which was that there was no growth in either nitrate-free or nitrate-containing meats, in whatever experimental conditions they used (we don't know, unless you have a link to the actual study).
It's absolutely true that you're overwhelmingly likely to be totally fine curing with just salt, but there is still some small risk. Nitrates are definitely a belt and suspenders type situation, reducing the already small risk of a very bad outcome. The risk of significant botulism growth in a salty brine at fridge temperatures in a week is indeed very low, but the cost of botulism is very high.
I think it's a legitimate question to ask how the risks and benefits of nitrates in cured meats pencil out, but to claim nitrates don't do anything isn't reasonable.
posted by ssg at 9:54 AM on April 13, 2022 [4 favorites]
That's not actually what they claim the study found though — which was that there was no growth in either nitrate-free or nitrate-containing meats, in whatever experimental conditions they used (we don't know, unless you have a link to the actual study).
It's absolutely true that you're overwhelmingly likely to be totally fine curing with just salt, but there is still some small risk. Nitrates are definitely a belt and suspenders type situation, reducing the already small risk of a very bad outcome. The risk of significant botulism growth in a salty brine at fridge temperatures in a week is indeed very low, but the cost of botulism is very high.
I think it's a legitimate question to ask how the risks and benefits of nitrates in cured meats pencil out, but to claim nitrates don't do anything isn't reasonable.
posted by ssg at 9:54 AM on April 13, 2022 [4 favorites]
I'm not defending the video or recipe at all, but the titular "mind boggling diarrhea" quote is pretty clearly fake, as it was made five days after the video was posted and the recipe calls for a week in the fridge plus many hours of cooking. Media reporting obviously trolling comments as if they are legit because they make good quotes seems to be more and more common these days.
There does seem to be something fishy going on here. Here in Europe, lots of charcuterie is made with no nitrates. For instance, you can't use nitrates in real prosciutto or Jambon Iberico.
Brad Leone is not my cup of tea, and I would never follow his advice, so this is not really a defense of him clowning around. The other day I watched one of the videos where he is foraging, and thought it looked dangerous and irresponsible.
You know, everyone deserves a fair trial, though that is unlikely in the court of social media...
posted by mumimor at 9:57 AM on April 13, 2022 [2 favorites]
There does seem to be something fishy going on here. Here in Europe, lots of charcuterie is made with no nitrates. For instance, you can't use nitrates in real prosciutto or Jambon Iberico.
Brad Leone is not my cup of tea, and I would never follow his advice, so this is not really a defense of him clowning around. The other day I watched one of the videos where he is foraging, and thought it looked dangerous and irresponsible.
You know, everyone deserves a fair trial, though that is unlikely in the court of social media...
posted by mumimor at 9:57 AM on April 13, 2022 [2 favorites]
WarriorQueen beat me to it, but the National Center for Home Food Preservation is amazing and a great resource for learning what is and isn't safe.
Also it's good to keep in mind botulism isn't something that's an inconvenience, it can be fatal, especially for young children and the elderly.
Canning and food preservation is a great hobby but it's important to do it safely and responsibly for yourself and anyone you might serve food to.
My Grandparents grew up on farms and were farmers and I grew up on their stories about how amazing modern food handling rules and techniques are and how happy they are people are safer now and don't have to go through illnesses they or their families experienced. A lot of things like botulism (and things pasteurization takes care of) can't be detected or prevented in any other way than heating the food item in question and you won't know it's there until someone gets hurt. No matter how careful or responsible you are otherwise.
So have fun cooking and preserving, but make sure you pick a good reputable source so you know what to do and why! It could really make a huge difference for someone.
posted by scififan at 9:59 AM on April 13, 2022 [6 favorites]
Also it's good to keep in mind botulism isn't something that's an inconvenience, it can be fatal, especially for young children and the elderly.
Canning and food preservation is a great hobby but it's important to do it safely and responsibly for yourself and anyone you might serve food to.
My Grandparents grew up on farms and were farmers and I grew up on their stories about how amazing modern food handling rules and techniques are and how happy they are people are safer now and don't have to go through illnesses they or their families experienced. A lot of things like botulism (and things pasteurization takes care of) can't be detected or prevented in any other way than heating the food item in question and you won't know it's there until someone gets hurt. No matter how careful or responsible you are otherwise.
So have fun cooking and preserving, but make sure you pick a good reputable source so you know what to do and why! It could really make a huge difference for someone.
posted by scififan at 9:59 AM on April 13, 2022 [6 favorites]
TIL that in the US, "solder" doesn't rhyme with "folder". (Er, unless you have a silent "L" in that too...?)
Per several of my Maryland/VA/DC environs coworkers, that word is indeed pronounced "fo-der"
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 10:03 AM on April 13, 2022 [4 favorites]
Per several of my Maryland/VA/DC environs coworkers, that word is indeed pronounced "fo-der"
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 10:03 AM on April 13, 2022 [4 favorites]
I have some limited experience with fermenting meat (and while successful I didn't let anyone in my family eat it out of too much caution) but when I watched Brad's video earlier in the week I was pretty skeptical about it being edible. I literally thought that it'd result in more tainted meat than a Littlest Hobo episode. And yeah it is possible to ferment meat without nitrites but the methodology shown in the video seemed suspect to me but I'm not an expert. Personally I have more trust in someone like Sandor Katz then this goofball. I tend to see Brad's videos more as entertainment then actual cooking advice as he's pretty lackadaisical.
posted by Ashwagandha at 10:05 AM on April 13, 2022 [6 favorites]
posted by Ashwagandha at 10:05 AM on April 13, 2022 [6 favorites]
I mean, the Ball Blue Book (sort of the canning bible) right up front says "follow these recipes TO THE LETTER or YOU WILL DIE." Which is obviously not true,
True or not, this is why I never get further than instructions for any kind of home preservation or curing, except freezing. I feel OK freezing stuff.
posted by FencingGal at 10:06 AM on April 13, 2022 [9 favorites]
True or not, this is why I never get further than instructions for any kind of home preservation or curing, except freezing. I feel OK freezing stuff.
posted by FencingGal at 10:06 AM on April 13, 2022 [9 favorites]
It has a whole section, with citations, on smoking and curing meat.
Give me pastramior and give me death depth!
FTFY
posted by snuffleupagus at 10:10 AM on April 13, 2022
Give me pastrami
FTFY
posted by snuffleupagus at 10:10 AM on April 13, 2022
Also it's good to keep in mind botulism isn't something that's an inconvenience, it can be fatal
An understatement if anything - it’s highly fatal without treatment, sometimes fatal with, and can require mechanical ventilation and weeks in the hospital. Quite rare with proper preservation technique, though, but I wouldn’t want to fuck around too much with improper preservation technique.
posted by atoxyl at 10:11 AM on April 13, 2022 [5 favorites]
An understatement if anything - it’s highly fatal without treatment, sometimes fatal with, and can require mechanical ventilation and weeks in the hospital. Quite rare with proper preservation technique, though, but I wouldn’t want to fuck around too much with improper preservation technique.
posted by atoxyl at 10:11 AM on April 13, 2022 [5 favorites]
Thanks for that food preservation link. Some meaty reading to be done.
One problem with botulism is it's relatively hard to cook food to make it safe. The bacteria spores are highly heat resistant; one reason canning led to so many botulism cases in the early 1900s is home canners would heat the food enough to kill everything but the Clostridium botulinum, letting it grow free without competition. The botulism toxin the bacteria produces is also heat resistant. Food safety of Ireland has details
While we're here the other big scary food contaminant is Listeria, often associated with dairy. It's the reason we mostly pasteurize milk products. It can occur in other places too, although for some reason I've never heard it stated as much of a concern when fermenting.
posted by Nelson at 10:29 AM on April 13, 2022 [3 favorites]
One problem with botulism is it's relatively hard to cook food to make it safe. The bacteria spores are highly heat resistant; one reason canning led to so many botulism cases in the early 1900s is home canners would heat the food enough to kill everything but the Clostridium botulinum, letting it grow free without competition. The botulism toxin the bacteria produces is also heat resistant. Food safety of Ireland has details
Normal thorough cooking (pasteurisation: 70°C 2min or equivalent) will kill Cl.botulinum bacteria but not its spores. To kill the spores of Cl.botulinum a sterilisation process equivalent to 121°C for 3 min is required. The botulinum toxin itself is inactivated (denatured) rapidly at temperatures greater than 80°C .80C (176F) is very hot, we tend to think of meat as fully cooked at 60-65C.
While we're here the other big scary food contaminant is Listeria, often associated with dairy. It's the reason we mostly pasteurize milk products. It can occur in other places too, although for some reason I've never heard it stated as much of a concern when fermenting.
posted by Nelson at 10:29 AM on April 13, 2022 [3 favorites]
Listeria survival in refrigerator dill pickles (Institute of Food Technologists Annual Meeting, Las Vegas, NV, July 14, 2004) [PDF]
Note: This research study analyzed one particular pickling procedure that started with partially fermenting cucumbers at room temperature and then storing them in the refrigerator with no further treatment or processing. It does not represent findings or advice for any other type of refrigerator pickles.
posted by snuffleupagus at 10:33 AM on April 13, 2022
Note: This research study analyzed one particular pickling procedure that started with partially fermenting cucumbers at room temperature and then storing them in the refrigerator with no further treatment or processing. It does not represent findings or advice for any other type of refrigerator pickles.
posted by snuffleupagus at 10:33 AM on April 13, 2022
So, he cured the brisket in a refrigerator covered in plastic, then smoked it to a safe internal temperature (155ºF ), then steamed it until it was 203ºF internally. Call me silly, but that seems about as safe as most other brisket-cooking processes.
In any case, we should take the rando diarrhea Instagrammer's story with a big grain of (pink curing) salt.
posted by Hot Pastrami! at 10:41 AM on April 13, 2022 [7 favorites]
In any case, we should take the rando diarrhea Instagrammer's story with a big grain of (pink curing) salt.
posted by Hot Pastrami! at 10:41 AM on April 13, 2022 [7 favorites]
I don't really get the very intense dislike of Brad... it's seemed clear to me that his "role" in the BA universe has always been to be that of the reasonably likeable doofus. I don't really doubt that most of the things that people seem to dislike about him is likely the character he is supposed to play.
I don't think it's so much the dislike of Brad as such as it's the dislike of "reasonably likeable doofus is someone we are expected to take seriously".
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 10:44 AM on April 13, 2022 [3 favorites]
I don't think it's so much the dislike of Brad as such as it's the dislike of "reasonably likeable doofus is someone we are expected to take seriously".
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 10:44 AM on April 13, 2022 [3 favorites]
Expected by whom?
posted by neroli at 10:51 AM on April 13, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by neroli at 10:51 AM on April 13, 2022 [2 favorites]
If you're interested in why prosciutto can be cured just with salt, here you go. Not all curing processes or indeed meat is the same. You can enjoy with confidence, and although we're eating 95% vegetarian-leaning-vegan here these days, good cheese and good prosciutto are reasons for the 5%. :)
However, teaching people at home to do things is really different. Home fridges, for example, can vary a lot in their ability to hold temperature, especially if you're putting warm things into them. I don't think it's likely that anyone watching this video is going to get botulism.
But if you're making a professional video for a professional brand, I guess my expectation kind of is that you are at least aware of the risks and letting people know if something is dodgy. This isn't just some rando guy who's the Twitter story of the day, IMO. It's entirely possible the outrage is overstated but having worked on a team that had to consider these things I'm still pretty surprised about it.
posted by warriorqueen at 10:56 AM on April 13, 2022 [8 favorites]
However, teaching people at home to do things is really different. Home fridges, for example, can vary a lot in their ability to hold temperature, especially if you're putting warm things into them. I don't think it's likely that anyone watching this video is going to get botulism.
But if you're making a professional video for a professional brand, I guess my expectation kind of is that you are at least aware of the risks and letting people know if something is dodgy. This isn't just some rando guy who's the Twitter story of the day, IMO. It's entirely possible the outrage is overstated but having worked on a team that had to consider these things I'm still pretty surprised about it.
posted by warriorqueen at 10:56 AM on April 13, 2022 [8 favorites]
IIR, Brad started as the kitchen manager and general comic relief for chefs, like Claire, who seemed less than comfortable with camera work. However, there was that vibe between Brad and their troublesome editor, Adam, that put an uncomfortable spin on things. I suspect the production crew were the ones pushing Brad into the spotlight so they could do something other than straight cooking videos, which was fine, as long as he didn’t do anything really stupid.
Then, he got his own segments, all the popular professionals left and the new crop, who don’t seem to have revived the brand much, haven’t the power or prestige to really challenge him.
So, while, he is a liability, he’s also popular with a certain crowd and BA profits from it.
The only chef to walk away from it and survive seems to be Claire Saffitz. The rest of that gang has faded into the woodwork.
That seems to be the way of the YouTube chef. Chef John is still going strong, but he’s got his own thing going on and a corporate sponsor that apparently only requires him to produce “contractually obligated” product shots. Babish is still around, but handing off responsibilities to some other guy (now that food is less prominent in film). Josh Weissman is still going strong, but his videos are turning into parodies of themselves. And Alex … well, he … I have no idea.
Point is, you only get a few like Jacques Pepin or Julia Child or Chef John who have a strong, authoritative presence and the rest come and go.
Thus, Brad will eventually pass and we’ll go back to safe food again.
Sorry to ramble like that. I watch a lot of YouTube chefs and that’s my take.
posted by JustSayNoDawg at 11:12 AM on April 13, 2022 [7 favorites]
Then, he got his own segments, all the popular professionals left and the new crop, who don’t seem to have revived the brand much, haven’t the power or prestige to really challenge him.
So, while, he is a liability, he’s also popular with a certain crowd and BA profits from it.
The only chef to walk away from it and survive seems to be Claire Saffitz. The rest of that gang has faded into the woodwork.
That seems to be the way of the YouTube chef. Chef John is still going strong, but he’s got his own thing going on and a corporate sponsor that apparently only requires him to produce “contractually obligated” product shots. Babish is still around, but handing off responsibilities to some other guy (now that food is less prominent in film). Josh Weissman is still going strong, but his videos are turning into parodies of themselves. And Alex … well, he … I have no idea.
Point is, you only get a few like Jacques Pepin or Julia Child or Chef John who have a strong, authoritative presence and the rest come and go.
Thus, Brad will eventually pass and we’ll go back to safe food again.
Sorry to ramble like that. I watch a lot of YouTube chefs and that’s my take.
posted by JustSayNoDawg at 11:12 AM on April 13, 2022 [7 favorites]
Have you seen Sohla's history show? It's really nice!
posted by mumimor at 11:16 AM on April 13, 2022 [11 favorites]
posted by mumimor at 11:16 AM on April 13, 2022 [11 favorites]
> I don't think it's so much the dislike of Brad as such as it's the dislike of "reasonably likeable doofus is someone we are expected to take seriously".
Expected by whom?
By Bon Appetit, who have given him enough of a vote of confidence to give him his own show where he is the main character, and not the sidekick to someone else - and where he is also not bailed out of comedic fuckups.
Lemme elaborate:
If he were just the goofy dipshit sidekick to other people's stuff, he might be just annoying but forgettable. If the intent was for him to be the same kind of figure of fun as a lead, he would have been given a more sane and stable sidekick who was forever bailing him out of problems (the UK show where Jeremy Clarkson ineptly runs a farm follows this model - Clarkson is an idiot, and the Farm Manager on his payroll is constantly pointing out what he's doing wrong, so it's clear that "yep, Clarkson is still an idiot and we aren't meant to take him seriously").
Bon Appetit has given Brad his own show and left him to it, which indicates that oh, Brad isn't meant to be the figure-of-fun guy we laugh about because "he's so crazy." They also aren't taking down videos if there are complaints. Therefore....they expect us to take him seriously, or at least aren't doing anything to clarify that he shouldn't be taken seriously.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 11:24 AM on April 13, 2022 [7 favorites]
Expected by whom?
By Bon Appetit, who have given him enough of a vote of confidence to give him his own show where he is the main character, and not the sidekick to someone else - and where he is also not bailed out of comedic fuckups.
Lemme elaborate:
If he were just the goofy dipshit sidekick to other people's stuff, he might be just annoying but forgettable. If the intent was for him to be the same kind of figure of fun as a lead, he would have been given a more sane and stable sidekick who was forever bailing him out of problems (the UK show where Jeremy Clarkson ineptly runs a farm follows this model - Clarkson is an idiot, and the Farm Manager on his payroll is constantly pointing out what he's doing wrong, so it's clear that "yep, Clarkson is still an idiot and we aren't meant to take him seriously").
Bon Appetit has given Brad his own show and left him to it, which indicates that oh, Brad isn't meant to be the figure-of-fun guy we laugh about because "he's so crazy." They also aren't taking down videos if there are complaints. Therefore....they expect us to take him seriously, or at least aren't doing anything to clarify that he shouldn't be taken seriously.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 11:24 AM on April 13, 2022 [7 favorites]
Brad's run afoul of the weather any poorly-informed youtuber who attempts to do something potentially dangerous. He does something sort of dumb, but probably OK, then gets instant experted by people who have read a bit about food safety, but don't really know the ins and outs of it either.
My hot take is that all parties involved should do their homework better. And that we should put our attention on channels that aren't doing dumb stuff, but talk about what they know, rather than being pretend-experts-but-actually-just-learning.
One of the best food channels right now is Tasting History with Max Miller. Another we like is Middle Eats with Obi and Salma. And Future Neighbor with Daniel and Katie is a really down to earth Korean channel that's given us hot breakfasts (vegan!) for the whole pandemic. And Refika's Kitchen is really great as well.
posted by bonehead at 11:27 AM on April 13, 2022 [8 favorites]
My hot take is that all parties involved should do their homework better. And that we should put our attention on channels that aren't doing dumb stuff, but talk about what they know, rather than being pretend-experts-but-actually-just-learning.
One of the best food channels right now is Tasting History with Max Miller. Another we like is Middle Eats with Obi and Salma. And Future Neighbor with Daniel and Katie is a really down to earth Korean channel that's given us hot breakfasts (vegan!) for the whole pandemic. And Refika's Kitchen is really great as well.
posted by bonehead at 11:27 AM on April 13, 2022 [8 favorites]
istg I am less likely to drink more water than otherwise because of the kind of people who tell you to hydrate all the time
posted by Countess Elena at 11:31 AM on April 13, 2022 [3 favorites]
posted by Countess Elena at 11:31 AM on April 13, 2022 [3 favorites]
Since we're sharing other food channels:
Beryl Shereshewsky is focusing more on other people just talking about food, and then she tries it and gives a review, instead of giving you the exact recipe. It's more of a "spotlight on international cuisine" approach than a "how-to" - like, you'll learn that Armenian cuisine boasts a yogurt-based soup for colds or that eggs in mustard is A Thing in Germany, but you won't get a step-by-step approach for how to make either one; instead, you get a discourse from the Armenian person or the German person talking about how it was very traditional in their region or how their grandma always made it, and then Beryl will taste her own version of it and tell you what it's like. (Invariably she likes it.)
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 11:53 AM on April 13, 2022 [5 favorites]
Beryl Shereshewsky is focusing more on other people just talking about food, and then she tries it and gives a review, instead of giving you the exact recipe. It's more of a "spotlight on international cuisine" approach than a "how-to" - like, you'll learn that Armenian cuisine boasts a yogurt-based soup for colds or that eggs in mustard is A Thing in Germany, but you won't get a step-by-step approach for how to make either one; instead, you get a discourse from the Armenian person or the German person talking about how it was very traditional in their region or how their grandma always made it, and then Beryl will taste her own version of it and tell you what it's like. (Invariably she likes it.)
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 11:53 AM on April 13, 2022 [5 favorites]
Alex … well, he … I have no idea.
c'est vrai, he's getting a little loopy
Pro Home Cooks is recycling a lot of concepts too.
The cooking channels that keep going tend to be more focused on a single cuisine than doing the whole artisanal lifestyle and/or meal prep influencer thing.
Ragusea might be the exception, but he focuses less narrowly on cooking and also has a background in media production if memory serves. After BA's, his videos feel most like actual TV shows, less vloggy.
And of course ATK soldiers on. I trust their equipment reviews more than their food.
posted by snuffleupagus at 11:55 AM on April 13, 2022
c'est vrai, he's getting a little loopy
Pro Home Cooks is recycling a lot of concepts too.
The cooking channels that keep going tend to be more focused on a single cuisine than doing the whole artisanal lifestyle and/or meal prep influencer thing.
Ragusea might be the exception, but he focuses less narrowly on cooking and also has a background in media production if memory serves. After BA's, his videos feel most like actual TV shows, less vloggy.
And of course ATK soldiers on. I trust their equipment reviews more than their food.
posted by snuffleupagus at 11:55 AM on April 13, 2022
… In any case, we should take the rando diarrhea Instagrammer's story with a big grain of (pink curing) salt.
posted by Hot Pastrami! at 6:41 PM on April 13
[2 favorites +] [!]
Eponysterigross
posted by romakimmy at 12:08 PM on April 13, 2022 [4 favorites]
posted by Hot Pastrami! at 6:41 PM on April 13
[2 favorites +] [!]
Eponysterigross
posted by romakimmy at 12:08 PM on April 13, 2022 [4 favorites]
> Alex … well, he … I have no idea.
c'est vrai, he's getting a little loopy
Oh, you mean Alex "French Guy Cooking"? He's still a thing, his focus seems to be more like "I pick one specific thing and then I'll do a REALLY REALLY REALLY deep dive on it", and then he gets through that and then drops out until something else gets his fancy.
It doesn't lead to consistent views, but if you dig really in-depth take on things this is right up your alley. Like, his Fried Rice series didn't just get into the ingredients and a recipe - he also did a deep dive into exact techniques for holding and utilizing the wok. He's in the middle of a pasta carbonara deep-dive, and last video I saw was all about how ironically dried pasta is better for it - and why, and his "why" is getting into the kind of grain used for the pasta.
He's kind of like the polar opposite of Brad, in a way - Brad's attitude seems to be "oh, I know all about this stuff, lemme at it" and Alex's is "I just learned all this stuff but that left me with even MORE questions, lemme go follow that rabbit hole even further".
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 12:30 PM on April 13, 2022 [8 favorites]
c'est vrai, he's getting a little loopy
Oh, you mean Alex "French Guy Cooking"? He's still a thing, his focus seems to be more like "I pick one specific thing and then I'll do a REALLY REALLY REALLY deep dive on it", and then he gets through that and then drops out until something else gets his fancy.
It doesn't lead to consistent views, but if you dig really in-depth take on things this is right up your alley. Like, his Fried Rice series didn't just get into the ingredients and a recipe - he also did a deep dive into exact techniques for holding and utilizing the wok. He's in the middle of a pasta carbonara deep-dive, and last video I saw was all about how ironically dried pasta is better for it - and why, and his "why" is getting into the kind of grain used for the pasta.
He's kind of like the polar opposite of Brad, in a way - Brad's attitude seems to be "oh, I know all about this stuff, lemme at it" and Alex's is "I just learned all this stuff but that left me with even MORE questions, lemme go follow that rabbit hole even further".
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 12:30 PM on April 13, 2022 [8 favorites]
Yep. You can just see he's getting....well, loopier, as he pursues the algo. More handclapped thumbnails, more OMG GUYS YOU WON'T BELIEVE THIS THING, MERDE HOW WILL I SUCCEED, YES I HAVE TRIUMPHED OVER THE PASTA....
Permit me to recommend Afghan Cooks.
posted by snuffleupagus at 12:33 PM on April 13, 2022 [1 favorite]
Permit me to recommend Afghan Cooks.
posted by snuffleupagus at 12:33 PM on April 13, 2022 [1 favorite]
The only chef to walk away from it and survive seems to be Claire Saffitz. The rest of that gang has faded into the woodwork.
Sohla el-Waylly has a show on the History Channel that is also viewable on YouTube. Before that, she was a frequent “guest star” for Babish, Food 52, and NYT’s food blog.
Carla Lalli Music has her own YouTube channel. She has such wonderful mom energy.
Rick Martinez has a recurring segment on Food 52 call Sweet Heat.
He and Carla just collaborated on a video.
I noticed that while the other BA presenters have kept lower profiles, a number of them have come out with their own cookbooks.
posted by Eikonaut at 12:47 PM on April 13, 2022 [16 favorites]
Sohla el-Waylly has a show on the History Channel that is also viewable on YouTube. Before that, she was a frequent “guest star” for Babish, Food 52, and NYT’s food blog.
Carla Lalli Music has her own YouTube channel. She has such wonderful mom energy.
Rick Martinez has a recurring segment on Food 52 call Sweet Heat.
He and Carla just collaborated on a video.
I noticed that while the other BA presenters have kept lower profiles, a number of them have come out with their own cookbooks.
posted by Eikonaut at 12:47 PM on April 13, 2022 [16 favorites]
The only chef to walk away from it and survive seems to be Claire Saffitz. The rest of that gang has faded into the woodwork.
To continue:
Priya Krishna is up to a second cookbook, this one coauthored with David Chang as well as being an NYT reporter. I also cannot recommend enough this NYT Food video with Priya and her partner Seth vs. Sohla and her husband Ham in what is intended as a gingerbread house making competition but is in fact the single best demonstration of Type A and Type B personalities ever put to film. (Sohla and Ham also did a few videos for NYT just themselves, and they are great.)
Molly Baz has a cookbook and her website has an extremely online $5 a month cooking club of some sort.
posted by Superilla at 1:06 PM on April 13, 2022 [15 favorites]
To continue:
Priya Krishna is up to a second cookbook, this one coauthored with David Chang as well as being an NYT reporter. I also cannot recommend enough this NYT Food video with Priya and her partner Seth vs. Sohla and her husband Ham in what is intended as a gingerbread house making competition but is in fact the single best demonstration of Type A and Type B personalities ever put to film. (Sohla and Ham also did a few videos for NYT just themselves, and they are great.)
Molly Baz has a cookbook and her website has an extremely online $5 a month cooking club of some sort.
posted by Superilla at 1:06 PM on April 13, 2022 [15 favorites]
And Priya now has a staff job at the Times, where she’s doing some great reporting almost every week.
posted by neroli at 1:07 PM on April 13, 2022 [3 favorites]
posted by neroli at 1:07 PM on April 13, 2022 [3 favorites]
Funny how the only person they noticed having a career is the white lady.
I LOVE Claire, no shade on her, but yo, claiming all those people who have cookbooks and shows and careers "Faded into the background" is pretty sus. Maybe you're just not seeing them because you're not looking for them.
posted by FritoKAL at 1:21 PM on April 13, 2022 [5 favorites]
I LOVE Claire, no shade on her, but yo, claiming all those people who have cookbooks and shows and careers "Faded into the background" is pretty sus. Maybe you're just not seeing them because you're not looking for them.
posted by FritoKAL at 1:21 PM on April 13, 2022 [5 favorites]
Saffitz's Dessert Person content gets suggested to me more aggressively by Youtube than the other alums, but those are perhaps not organic results. I'm not sure how that works. She's also still listed as a BA contributor...
I've seen Priya's book widely recommended. If anything it's Lalli Music's patreon thing that seems most obscure. (Anyone tried it?)
posted by snuffleupagus at 1:55 PM on April 13, 2022
I've seen Priya's book widely recommended. If anything it's Lalli Music's patreon thing that seems most obscure. (Anyone tried it?)
posted by snuffleupagus at 1:55 PM on April 13, 2022
My Youtube algo learned quickly enough that I want to see BA alumni doing their own stuff and not BA itself any more, I get Sohla, Rick, and Priya on my feed pretty regularly. But the Youtube algorithm also seems to think I care about Minecraft, sports, and MMA/UFC despite the many times I say I don't like those videos or to not recommend those channels, so I don't put a lot of faith in the algorithm's ability to know what I want to watch or serve up relevant content.
posted by yasaman at 2:01 PM on April 13, 2022
posted by yasaman at 2:01 PM on April 13, 2022
Eikonaut and Superilla, thanks for those updates!
I consume most of my cooking content on YouTube and had a similar impression that only Claire was around, as she's been the only person whose content is being recommended to me.
Will definitely be adding the other folks who still have a presence on YouTube. I had no idea Sohla had a show!
posted by rustybullrake at 2:01 PM on April 13, 2022
I consume most of my cooking content on YouTube and had a similar impression that only Claire was around, as she's been the only person whose content is being recommended to me.
Will definitely be adding the other folks who still have a presence on YouTube. I had no idea Sohla had a show!
posted by rustybullrake at 2:01 PM on April 13, 2022
Typically, this is fine — the bacteria are coated in a protective layer of spores which are rarely harmful to people.Anyone else put off by this sentence in the linked article? “Coated in a protective layer of spores?” I know there are actual MFers that are biologists, so maybe one can comment, but it struck me like a bafflegab explanation you’d hear on Star Trek.
posted by Gilgamesh's Chauffeur at 2:06 PM on April 13, 2022
I should clarify: faded into the YouTube woodwork. True, I haven’t sought them out, but they also aren’t being pushed on TouTube, in the cuisine categories I follow.
I agree that Alex is pretty much the polar opposite of Brad; he’s a real food nerd.
My current favorite food nerd is Adam Ragusea, though, since he splits between plausible home recipes and medium-dive food education.
And yeah, they’re mostly white guys, but that’s who I gravitate toward, food-wise.
posted by JustSayNoDawg at 2:10 PM on April 13, 2022
I agree that Alex is pretty much the polar opposite of Brad; he’s a real food nerd.
My current favorite food nerd is Adam Ragusea, though, since he splits between plausible home recipes and medium-dive food education.
And yeah, they’re mostly white guys, but that’s who I gravitate toward, food-wise.
posted by JustSayNoDawg at 2:10 PM on April 13, 2022
“Coated in a protective layer of spores?”
Yeah, that's bafflegab. Botulism is caused by a bacterium called Clostridium botulinum, which makes spores (which aren't destroyed by boiling) and when those spores germinate, they create the neurotoxin that harms humans. Neither the bacteria nor the spores themselves are normally harmful, as it is rare for adults to be infected intestinally.
Babies can be infected directly by Clostridium botulinum and adults can also have wounds infected. The real danger for adults is the toxin, not the bacteria.
posted by ssg at 2:21 PM on April 13, 2022 [5 favorites]
Yeah, that's bafflegab. Botulism is caused by a bacterium called Clostridium botulinum, which makes spores (which aren't destroyed by boiling) and when those spores germinate, they create the neurotoxin that harms humans. Neither the bacteria nor the spores themselves are normally harmful, as it is rare for adults to be infected intestinally.
Babies can be infected directly by Clostridium botulinum and adults can also have wounds infected. The real danger for adults is the toxin, not the bacteria.
posted by ssg at 2:21 PM on April 13, 2022 [5 favorites]
Between when I posted and now, another Priya bit dropped: this interview with Linda Holmes on NPR's PCHH notionally talking about the new Julia Child bioseries, but talking as much about food media, parasocial relationships, intersectionality and other topics that I bet many people in this thread would enjoy hearing two smart people talking about. (They mention her NYT profile of Martin Yan, and are absolutely right; let's get a movie of his life.)
posted by Superilla at 2:52 PM on April 13, 2022 [4 favorites]
posted by Superilla at 2:52 PM on April 13, 2022 [4 favorites]
I find Leone entertaining and he presents some good ideas (honey-fermented garlic is a gift from the gods), but I realised he had lost the plot when a few years back he made kimchi (I seem to remember) with an oyster in it.
Fish sauce or even tinned anchovies is one thing, because they are 98% salt. A raw-ass oyster might come from the salty sauce but it is something else entirely.
There are people who can do this, I'm sure, throw fuckin' raw chicken brains into their home made sauerkraut and it comes out amazing and doesn't cripple anybody. You personally cannot do this.
posted by turbid dahlia at 3:52 PM on April 13, 2022 [1 favorite]
Fish sauce or even tinned anchovies is one thing, because they are 98% salt. A raw-ass oyster might come from the salty sauce but it is something else entirely.
There are people who can do this, I'm sure, throw fuckin' raw chicken brains into their home made sauerkraut and it comes out amazing and doesn't cripple anybody. You personally cannot do this.
posted by turbid dahlia at 3:52 PM on April 13, 2022 [1 favorite]
Adding raw seafood, including oysters, to kimchi is in fact quite traditional, so I don't think you can fault him for that one. It sounds crazy, but it works.
posted by ssg at 4:00 PM on April 13, 2022 [4 favorites]
posted by ssg at 4:00 PM on April 13, 2022 [4 favorites]
Oh, I understand that, and while I've never done it myself I have certainly eaten kimchi that was prepared in such a manner and it was amazing. But BL's stuff is very much "home fermentation for all" and adding raw non-vegetable ingredients to ferments is something that is fraught with fraughtness, and not something I personally think should be normalised by BL or BA.
posted by turbid dahlia at 4:05 PM on April 13, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by turbid dahlia at 4:05 PM on April 13, 2022 [1 favorite]
Actually, that honey-fermented garlic (which I have made and loved) is much more likely to give you botulism than kimchi with an oyster. (Or pastrami for that matter.) You really need to be careful with the pH on that one.
posted by neroli at 4:07 PM on April 13, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by neroli at 4:07 PM on April 13, 2022 [2 favorites]
Fair point, but still, god-damn.
posted by turbid dahlia at 4:08 PM on April 13, 2022
posted by turbid dahlia at 4:08 PM on April 13, 2022
A Youtuber who often covers food safety is Chubbyemu, a young doctor who presents unusual cases. They often involve someone eating something slightly dodgy, like gas station nachos or their roommate's leftovers, and paying a price wildly out of proportion for it, through no fault of their own.
posted by Countess Elena at 4:09 PM on April 13, 2022 [7 favorites]
posted by Countess Elena at 4:09 PM on April 13, 2022 [7 favorites]
For Korean, I think the go-to is Maangchi. I really wish I was her camera guy.
And Chubbyemu, while entertaining sometimes, is pretty damn intense. I feel like he’s trying to pick a Chianti that might go well with my liver.
posted by JustSayNoDawg at 4:11 PM on April 13, 2022 [3 favorites]
And Chubbyemu, while entertaining sometimes, is pretty damn intense. I feel like he’s trying to pick a Chianti that might go well with my liver.
posted by JustSayNoDawg at 4:11 PM on April 13, 2022 [3 favorites]
"...presenting to the emergency room with pastrami-induced hysteria..."
posted by turbid dahlia at 4:12 PM on April 13, 2022 [3 favorites]
posted by turbid dahlia at 4:12 PM on April 13, 2022 [3 favorites]
I love these threads because all the new stuff and updates on foodie stuff I can follow, but no joke, I'm especially enjoying this one for the earlier tangent in American Vs British regional diction. I don't have to do accent work for acting anymore but oh I love picking up these little things that I can keep in my pocket the next time I try my hand at podficcing again or similar. I'm still agog that this whole silent-l is a thing, how did I never notice it in the various American shows I watch?? Anyway, please continue, I'll return to lurking.
posted by cendawanita at 5:22 PM on April 13, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by cendawanita at 5:22 PM on April 13, 2022 [1 favorite]
I do a lot of preserving and one thing I’ve noticed is that people in the US can be super hyperbolic about your changes of dying if you don’t follow the USDA or Bell guides or whatever. I’d love to see an in-depth examination of canning procedures used in other countries as they can be very different.
posted by misterpatrick at 6:11 PM on April 13, 2022 [3 favorites]
posted by misterpatrick at 6:11 PM on April 13, 2022 [3 favorites]
That feels like an awful lot of projection on your part, armeowda, and I gotta be honest, the parasocial stuff going on in this thread where people talk confidently about the internal lives and motivations of people they only know through highly produced videos is pretty gross.
The chocolate tempering thing is a particularly shitty thing that people glommed onto in the aftermath of the test kitchen debacle, and I'm not thrilled to see it repeated here.
The test kitchen's whole deal was, it had a big cast of characters, and was constantly finding ways to randomly (not randomly) cause crossover cameos, particularly on their bigger shows like Claire Saffitz's in order to give visibility to other cast members who were less established. And yet when shit blew up, suddenly a bunch of internet people decided that because she asked Sohla to help her temper chocolate like twice, this was proof positive that this successful woman in her field actually knows nothing at all and is a talentless hack whose entire career was being propped up by, apparently, Sohla's ability to temper chocolate?
You can dislike a person and their creative output without it meaning that anyone who disagrees is having a fraud perpetrated on them.
posted by a faithful sock at 6:14 PM on April 13, 2022 [5 favorites]
The chocolate tempering thing is a particularly shitty thing that people glommed onto in the aftermath of the test kitchen debacle, and I'm not thrilled to see it repeated here.
The test kitchen's whole deal was, it had a big cast of characters, and was constantly finding ways to randomly (not randomly) cause crossover cameos, particularly on their bigger shows like Claire Saffitz's in order to give visibility to other cast members who were less established. And yet when shit blew up, suddenly a bunch of internet people decided that because she asked Sohla to help her temper chocolate like twice, this was proof positive that this successful woman in her field actually knows nothing at all and is a talentless hack whose entire career was being propped up by, apparently, Sohla's ability to temper chocolate?
You can dislike a person and their creative output without it meaning that anyone who disagrees is having a fraud perpetrated on them.
posted by a faithful sock at 6:14 PM on April 13, 2022 [5 favorites]
A Youtuber who often covers food safety is Chubbyemu, a young doctor who presents unusual cases. They often involve someone eating something slightly dodgy, like gas station nachos or their roommate's leftovers,
For the record, Chubbyemu seems to have misinterpreted the role of the leftovers in that fellow's case. The leftovers had nothing to do with the patient's symptoms, it was just a coincidence that he started feeling ill effects shortly after eating the noodles.
posted by Hot Pastrami! at 6:30 PM on April 13, 2022 [1 favorite]
For the record, Chubbyemu seems to have misinterpreted the role of the leftovers in that fellow's case. The leftovers had nothing to do with the patient's symptoms, it was just a coincidence that he started feeling ill effects shortly after eating the noodles.
posted by Hot Pastrami! at 6:30 PM on April 13, 2022 [1 favorite]
Very late to the party (stupid timezones), but I wanted to nth this:
but the fact of the matter is that the curing process with commercial celery powder is functionally identical to that of typical curing salts
I've been making sausage and bacon for about 13 years now, doing barbecue as well as cured and smoked meats. I'm decent at it, and had a (short lived) restaurant based on the meats I sold, and kind of sort of still do make stuff for friends that want it. I'm pretty happy that I've never made anyone ill, but that's because I've done a lot of reading about how to do the things I do, and I take a lot of care in doing it. Hell, I have a couple chunks of pastrami curing in vacuum pack as we speak (next to the roughly 12 kilos of pork belly that just went into my Tex-Mex bacon cure last night), made following a tried and true recipe that uses nitrite for safety. I'm very much looking forward to when it's ready.
What I do not do, have never done, and likely never will, is dry cure meats or make salami. All of that involves a fantastical level of care, science, and equipment, as well as space and time. A simple recipe for making Spanish chorizo (the deliciousest concept of pork I've ever experienced) requires being able to measure the ph balance of the meat, a space with steady humidity and controlled temperatures away from any direct light, and making sure that the mold that invariably grows in that sort of space is the right kind of mold, because if it's the wrong kind, you just have to throw all that meat out, and clean the hell out of your curing chamber, better luck next time. It's a painstaking process, and I'm not okay with the level of responsibility involved. If I meet someone who wants me to try their home cured salami, I'm going to need to know a bit about them and how they made it before giving it a try, whereas if you offered me a chocolate chip cookie, I would smile and accept it without hesitation.
As far as the celery powder/no-nitrite label thing, gah, the rage I feel about it is hard to put into words. It's very much a direct effect of non-scientific woo fads and bullshit, and here we see the logical outcome of someone vaguely hearing about how celery something something sorry bro I stopped listening, but I'm pretty sure all I need to make hotdogs is to put them next to celery in the fridge.
Cooks, chefs, food producers in general bear an immense amount of responsibility. We produce things that people ingest, and it is crucial that we understand the the health and safety protocols involved in that. If you can't make food safely, you shouldn't have a show, you shouldn't have a book deal. It's not that hard. The video should be pulled (because the uproar over it will fade, but until it's pulled, there will still be people that watch it context free, not knowing it's unsafe).
posted by Ghidorah at 7:18 PM on April 13, 2022 [18 favorites]
but the fact of the matter is that the curing process with commercial celery powder is functionally identical to that of typical curing salts
I've been making sausage and bacon for about 13 years now, doing barbecue as well as cured and smoked meats. I'm decent at it, and had a (short lived) restaurant based on the meats I sold, and kind of sort of still do make stuff for friends that want it. I'm pretty happy that I've never made anyone ill, but that's because I've done a lot of reading about how to do the things I do, and I take a lot of care in doing it. Hell, I have a couple chunks of pastrami curing in vacuum pack as we speak (next to the roughly 12 kilos of pork belly that just went into my Tex-Mex bacon cure last night), made following a tried and true recipe that uses nitrite for safety. I'm very much looking forward to when it's ready.
What I do not do, have never done, and likely never will, is dry cure meats or make salami. All of that involves a fantastical level of care, science, and equipment, as well as space and time. A simple recipe for making Spanish chorizo (the deliciousest concept of pork I've ever experienced) requires being able to measure the ph balance of the meat, a space with steady humidity and controlled temperatures away from any direct light, and making sure that the mold that invariably grows in that sort of space is the right kind of mold, because if it's the wrong kind, you just have to throw all that meat out, and clean the hell out of your curing chamber, better luck next time. It's a painstaking process, and I'm not okay with the level of responsibility involved. If I meet someone who wants me to try their home cured salami, I'm going to need to know a bit about them and how they made it before giving it a try, whereas if you offered me a chocolate chip cookie, I would smile and accept it without hesitation.
As far as the celery powder/no-nitrite label thing, gah, the rage I feel about it is hard to put into words. It's very much a direct effect of non-scientific woo fads and bullshit, and here we see the logical outcome of someone vaguely hearing about how celery something something sorry bro I stopped listening, but I'm pretty sure all I need to make hotdogs is to put them next to celery in the fridge.
Cooks, chefs, food producers in general bear an immense amount of responsibility. We produce things that people ingest, and it is crucial that we understand the the health and safety protocols involved in that. If you can't make food safely, you shouldn't have a show, you shouldn't have a book deal. It's not that hard. The video should be pulled (because the uproar over it will fade, but until it's pulled, there will still be people that watch it context free, not knowing it's unsafe).
posted by Ghidorah at 7:18 PM on April 13, 2022 [18 favorites]
But we’re not talking about anything dry-cured here — it’s a brisket that’s been brined, smoked and steamed. Can you explain why exactly you think it’s unsafe?
posted by neroli at 7:38 PM on April 13, 2022
posted by neroli at 7:38 PM on April 13, 2022
I also cannot recommend enough this NYT Food video yt with Priya and her partner Seth vs. Sohla and her husband Ham in what is intended as a gingerbread house making competition but is in fact the single best demonstration of Type A and Type B personalities ever put to film.
We watched this over New Year's, and the contrast in approach truly brought me to tears laughing.
posted by deludingmyself at 7:47 PM on April 13, 2022 [2 favorites]
We watched this over New Year's, and the contrast in approach truly brought me to tears laughing.
posted by deludingmyself at 7:47 PM on April 13, 2022 [2 favorites]
Sohla and Ham are what my spouse and I strive to be in the kitchen when we're in there together.
posted by mollweide at 8:16 PM on April 13, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by mollweide at 8:16 PM on April 13, 2022 [2 favorites]
Can you explain why exactly you think it’s unsafe?
I think it is unsafe because, as someone who is not a scientist, I follow the advice and teaching of experts in the field I am a part of. I have not, and will likely not ever wear a lab coat and have a chance to study the science behind botulism past what I have read in the texts (Home Production of Quality Meats and Sausages, and Home Production of Quality Meats and Sausages by Marianski, among others) and the cautions they give. Just as I don't need to know the chemical processes by which norovirus sickens people to understand that I need to wash my hands and maintain a clean workspace when serving food.
Not everyone needs to be a goddamn molecular biologist in order to justify following food safety.
And shit, past the science of it? Grey pastrami looks like crap, and has a less pleasant texture.
posted by Ghidorah at 8:23 PM on April 13, 2022 [2 favorites]
I think it is unsafe because, as someone who is not a scientist, I follow the advice and teaching of experts in the field I am a part of. I have not, and will likely not ever wear a lab coat and have a chance to study the science behind botulism past what I have read in the texts (Home Production of Quality Meats and Sausages, and Home Production of Quality Meats and Sausages by Marianski, among others) and the cautions they give. Just as I don't need to know the chemical processes by which norovirus sickens people to understand that I need to wash my hands and maintain a clean workspace when serving food.
Not everyone needs to be a goddamn molecular biologist in order to justify following food safety.
And shit, past the science of it? Grey pastrami looks like crap, and has a less pleasant texture.
posted by Ghidorah at 8:23 PM on April 13, 2022 [2 favorites]
"In substitution of the pink curing salt is the celery juice, which is high in sodium nitrate, and then we have our culture, which in this case is the sauerkraut juice. And the end result of those two mingling for a week is gonna leave us with a sodium nitrite, which is what we're trying to achieve"
Based on the ratios he describes in the video transcript, I'm pretty sure that's not a salt brine which could handle a week, much less one where he says to keep disturbing it daily. Plus he talks about using the sauerkraut juice as a culture, but if that's what he was trying to do he put the salt percentage *way* too high for that.
Smoking & steaming would kill off live things, sure, but he pulled it out at 206 degrees, which isn't enough to deactivate botulism spores. So if anything grew in that week, it's not being made safe because of the final cooking step.
This lines up with the previous video of his which he had trouble with, where he water-bath canned mussels & lobster.
Based on the ratios he describes in the video transcript, I'm pretty sure that's not a salt brine which could handle a week, much less one where he says to keep disturbing it daily. Plus he talks about using the sauerkraut juice as a culture, but if that's what he was trying to do he put the salt percentage *way* too high for that.
Smoking & steaming would kill off live things, sure, but he pulled it out at 206 degrees, which isn't enough to deactivate botulism spores. So if anything grew in that week, it's not being made safe because of the final cooking step.
This lines up with the previous video of his which he had trouble with, where he water-bath canned mussels & lobster.
Interestingly, in the now-deleted show, Leone’s guest instructor tells him that the contents of the jar need to reach that magic temperature of 240 degrees. Charlotte Langley, a chef and founder of Scout Canning in Toronto, repeatedly talks about safety, with Leone enthusiastically agreeing. “Safety is sexy,” she declares at one point, and Leone — in his energetic, Everybro persona — repeats her mantra.posted by CrystalDave at 8:41 PM on April 13, 2022 [3 favorites]
But as Clemens notes, it’s impossible for a water-bath process to heat the jars and get the contents hotter than 212 degrees, the temperature at which water boils. “You can’t achieve a temperature of 240 degrees in anything other than a pressure canner,” Clemens says.
That feels like an awful lot of projection on your part, armeowda, and I gotta be honest, the parasocial stuff going on in this thread where people talk confidently about the internal lives and motivations of people they only know through highly produced videos is pretty gross.
As the only person you’ve singled out for this behavior, I concede this point. You’re right. We’re being gross.
I realize we’re kind of primed to judge these people as though we knew them, given that the whole point of the test kitchen ensemble cast was to create those weird parasocial relationships.
Thank you for raising that point.
You can dislike a person and their creative output without it meaning that anyone who disagrees is having a fraud perpetrated on them
I did not say that people who disagree with me were suckers, and I think you’re being a little uncharitable yourself here.
My point, poorly articulated though it was, was that neither of the white people picked to be the “stars” of the franchise was well-suited to that pigeonhole. One was better as a sidekick, and one still looks like she’d rather be anywhere but on camera. But I don’t blame them for the pigeonholing they got.
posted by armeowda at 8:59 PM on April 13, 2022 [1 favorite]
As the only person you’ve singled out for this behavior, I concede this point. You’re right. We’re being gross.
I realize we’re kind of primed to judge these people as though we knew them, given that the whole point of the test kitchen ensemble cast was to create those weird parasocial relationships.
Thank you for raising that point.
You can dislike a person and their creative output without it meaning that anyone who disagrees is having a fraud perpetrated on them
I did not say that people who disagree with me were suckers, and I think you’re being a little uncharitable yourself here.
My point, poorly articulated though it was, was that neither of the white people picked to be the “stars” of the franchise was well-suited to that pigeonhole. One was better as a sidekick, and one still looks like she’d rather be anywhere but on camera. But I don’t blame them for the pigeonholing they got.
posted by armeowda at 8:59 PM on April 13, 2022 [1 favorite]
And shit, past the science of it? Grey pastrami looks like crap, and has a less pleasant texture.
Agreed. The pastrami pictured in tfa might be a trick of the light and is probably perfectly okay and perhaps even delicious and life-changing, but I try my best to avoid meat that has a grey dusty-looking crust on the inside.
posted by turbid dahlia at 9:10 PM on April 13, 2022 [2 favorites]
Agreed. The pastrami pictured in tfa might be a trick of the light and is probably perfectly okay and perhaps even delicious and life-changing, but I try my best to avoid meat that has a grey dusty-looking crust on the inside.
posted by turbid dahlia at 9:10 PM on April 13, 2022 [2 favorites]
I don't think I had twigged recently to just how edge-of-the-outrage-seat this place was these days, all of us with a hand of cards ready from the deck. In a fucking pastrami thread no less.
posted by turbid dahlia at 9:52 PM on April 13, 2022 [4 favorites]
posted by turbid dahlia at 9:52 PM on April 13, 2022 [4 favorites]
And yet when shit blew up, suddenly a bunch of internet people decided that because she asked Sohla to help her temper chocolate like twice, this was proof positive that this successful woman in her field actually knows nothing at all and is a talentless hack whose entire career was being propped up by, apparently, Sohla's ability to temper chocolate?
The reason people got mad at Claire about the chocolate thing was that she was being paid tens of thousands of dollars for each video while Sohla (a visibly better chef!) wasn't being paid at all.
posted by zymil at 10:48 PM on April 13, 2022 [8 favorites]
The reason people got mad at Claire about the chocolate thing was that she was being paid tens of thousands of dollars for each video while Sohla (a visibly better chef!) wasn't being paid at all.
posted by zymil at 10:48 PM on April 13, 2022 [8 favorites]
Gilgamesh's chauffeur: “Coated in a protective layer of spores?” . . . addendum to sgg
Some bacteria, including Clostridium botulinum, of which we treat, are able to respond rapidly to adverse circumstances - drying out, heating up, big changes in pH or salinity - by reconfiguring into a spore (highly resistant to physical and chemical assault) in which form they wait out the bad times. When things calm down, a different genetic programme kicks in, and the bacteria return to go forth and multiply mode. I guess the production of botulinum toxin is effective in creating a large volume [75kg on average] of anaerobic material in which future generations of Clostridium can thrive. tl;dr the spore is the bacterium, like the egg is the chicken.
posted by BobTheScientist at 11:58 PM on April 13, 2022 [1 favorite]
Some bacteria, including Clostridium botulinum, of which we treat, are able to respond rapidly to adverse circumstances - drying out, heating up, big changes in pH or salinity - by reconfiguring into a spore (highly resistant to physical and chemical assault) in which form they wait out the bad times. When things calm down, a different genetic programme kicks in, and the bacteria return to go forth and multiply mode. I guess the production of botulinum toxin is effective in creating a large volume [75kg on average] of anaerobic material in which future generations of Clostridium can thrive. tl;dr the spore is the bacterium, like the egg is the chicken.
posted by BobTheScientist at 11:58 PM on April 13, 2022 [1 favorite]
The color of the finished meat is a giveaway that the celery trick did not have the desired effect of replacing curing salt. Which, eh. That overly pink color associated with commercially processed pastrami is a bit off putting to me anyway. But yeah, it sat in a brine in the fridge for a week and was smoked and then steamed. Hardly the sketchiest food advice on the web.
posted by St. Oops at 12:37 AM on April 14, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by St. Oops at 12:37 AM on April 14, 2022 [1 favorite]
I also cannot recommend enough this NYT Food video yt with Priya and her partner Seth vs. Sohla and her husband Ham in what is intended as a gingerbread house making competition but is in fact the single best demonstration of Type A and Type B personalities ever put to film.
Have you seen that they did a rematch?
I think some of the difference in dynamics/personalities is due to the fact that Sohla and Ham are professionals. It's like those videos where they do the same meal with three levels of cooks, just much nicer because of the silliness and also that the two couples are friends.
posted by mumimor at 3:32 AM on April 14, 2022
Have you seen that they did a rematch?
I think some of the difference in dynamics/personalities is due to the fact that Sohla and Ham are professionals. It's like those videos where they do the same meal with three levels of cooks, just much nicer because of the silliness and also that the two couples are friends.
posted by mumimor at 3:32 AM on April 14, 2022
For the record, Chubbyemu seems to have misinterpreted the role of the leftovers in that fellow's case. The leftovers had nothing to do with the patient's symptoms, it was just a coincidence that he started feeling ill effects shortly after eating the noodles.
I've watched a lot of the Chubbyemu videos on food-related illnesses, and most of them seem to have an underlying medical condition that turns out to be the real problem. The grandmother who ate a pound of chocolate, for instance, was constipated, supposedly from the chocolate, and had a stroke when she strained going to the bathroom. That doesn't mean eating a pound of chocolate would cause a stroke.
posted by FencingGal at 6:13 AM on April 14, 2022 [1 favorite]
I've watched a lot of the Chubbyemu videos on food-related illnesses, and most of them seem to have an underlying medical condition that turns out to be the real problem. The grandmother who ate a pound of chocolate, for instance, was constipated, supposedly from the chocolate, and had a stroke when she strained going to the bathroom. That doesn't mean eating a pound of chocolate would cause a stroke.
posted by FencingGal at 6:13 AM on April 14, 2022 [1 favorite]
The reason people got mad at Claire about the chocolate thing was that she was being paid tens of thousands of dollars for each video while Sohla (a visibly better chef!) wasn't being paid at all.
Sohla was, by her own account, expected to do it for free by BA management (which included some of the then on-video "personalities"). Claire know about it, benefited from it, but did noting to change things, even when several others in the kitchen stepped forward and pledged to seek new relationships and do things differently.
Brad did his flustered thing and backed away, Claire disappeared for a year or more, and now both he and she are back without comment or any apparent adjustment in behaviour either at BA or themselves. Left a bad taste to me.
posted by bonehead at 7:07 AM on April 14, 2022 [2 favorites]
Sohla was, by her own account, expected to do it for free by BA management (which included some of the then on-video "personalities"). Claire know about it, benefited from it, but did noting to change things, even when several others in the kitchen stepped forward and pledged to seek new relationships and do things differently.
Brad did his flustered thing and backed away, Claire disappeared for a year or more, and now both he and she are back without comment or any apparent adjustment in behaviour either at BA or themselves. Left a bad taste to me.
posted by bonehead at 7:07 AM on April 14, 2022 [2 favorites]
now both he and she are back
This is wrong -- Claire Saffitz does not work for BA.
posted by neroli at 7:25 AM on April 14, 2022 [1 favorite]
This is wrong -- Claire Saffitz does not work for BA.
posted by neroli at 7:25 AM on April 14, 2022 [1 favorite]
Yeah, I don't think that perception of Claire is quite correct - at the time of the big public reckoning in the test kitchen in June 2020, she had just finished out her most recent limited contract (having already left her full-time job with them some time before) and she never signed another one after that. She permanently severed her relationship with BA/Conde Nast in October 2020. That said, she may have been (probably was!) complicit in BA's dysfunction prior to that big public moment - but she certainly hasn't had any affiliation since.
posted by mosst at 7:36 AM on April 14, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by mosst at 7:36 AM on April 14, 2022 [2 favorites]
There's also a great subreddit, r/AfterTheTestKitchen, that follows the projects of various ex-BA staff.
posted by mosst at 7:38 AM on April 14, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by mosst at 7:38 AM on April 14, 2022 [1 favorite]
It looks a little amorphous....she's not on the digital masthead. But Google is still seeing some kind of embedded text on the BA site that characterizes her as a "contributor." That text is not visible on the page the captioned result takes you to. That page does appear to show a new recipe posted "by Claire Saffitz" as of 4/2/22; but click through and it appears to be a Nov. 2015 reprint.
Maybe just bad webmastering?
posted by snuffleupagus at 7:42 AM on April 14, 2022
Maybe just bad webmastering?
posted by snuffleupagus at 7:42 AM on April 14, 2022
Yep. You can just see [Alex French Guy] is getting....well, loopier, as he pursues the algo. More handclapped thumbnails, more OMG GUYS YOU WON'T BELIEVE THIS THING, MERDE HOW WILL I SUCCEED, YES I HAVE TRIUMPHED OVER THE PASTA....
*shrug* he always seemed that way to me, and that was part of the appeal in the first place. The "I have triumphed over the pasta" reads to me as tongue-in-cheek - and come on, haven't you ever had a moment where you tackled some small-scale and personal niche thing in a hobby and wanted to do a victory lap when you succeeded?
(Weirdly, that kind of thing reminds of a moment in a Top Gear episode where the usually-inept Jeremy Clarkson succeeds in screwing something that fell off his car back on, and he ecstatically throws his fists in the air and shouts at the top of his lungs, "I MENDED SOMETHING!!!!!")
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 7:43 AM on April 14, 2022 [3 favorites]
*shrug* he always seemed that way to me, and that was part of the appeal in the first place. The "I have triumphed over the pasta" reads to me as tongue-in-cheek - and come on, haven't you ever had a moment where you tackled some small-scale and personal niche thing in a hobby and wanted to do a victory lap when you succeeded?
(Weirdly, that kind of thing reminds of a moment in a Top Gear episode where the usually-inept Jeremy Clarkson succeeds in screwing something that fell off his car back on, and he ecstatically throws his fists in the air and shouts at the top of his lungs, "I MENDED SOMETHING!!!!!")
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 7:43 AM on April 14, 2022 [3 favorites]
I mean I personally really enjoy the guy, and I don't mind; but the level of shtick (and reality-style filler) seems to be increasing. It's the same with a lot of the creators I follow across genres, they're all under similar pressures...
posted by snuffleupagus at 7:47 AM on April 14, 2022
posted by snuffleupagus at 7:47 AM on April 14, 2022
I don't think I had twigged recently to just how edge-of-the-outrage-seat this place was these days, all of us with a hand of cards ready from the deck. In a fucking pastrami thread no less.
I'm not too proud to say "Mind Boggling Diarrhea" drew me like a moth to a flame
posted by elkevelvet at 2:55 PM on April 14, 2022 [4 favorites]
I'm not too proud to say "Mind Boggling Diarrhea" drew me like a moth to a flame
posted by elkevelvet at 2:55 PM on April 14, 2022 [4 favorites]
Everything in this video was done perfectly fine from a food safety perspective. The raw meat was prepped quickly (assumption: under 4 hours at room temp and prep surfaces and tools were all cleaned and sanitized). It was soaked in a brine solution with >3% salt (rough math - 10 cups of liquid is about 2400 grams, so with 300 grams of salt would be a 12% solution). Stored in a stable refrigerated environment (assumption: that walk-in air temp was less than 41F) for a week and monitored daily for signs of spoilage (that physical inspection and sniff for off odors at the end is exactly what you're supposed to do). Then smoked to an internal temp of 155 F and steamed to 203 F (safety temp for Beef is 155 F, so the smoking alone did the trick). That sauerkraut and celery juice did nothing in terms of curing, but maybe it added some flavor.
posted by dchase at 3:26 PM on April 14, 2022 [3 favorites]
posted by dchase at 3:26 PM on April 14, 2022 [3 favorites]
Chubbyemu, a young doctor
Point of order, Chubbyemu is a PharmD, not an MD/DO. So while a doctor, he is not a physician. He also has a history of being vague about his training and scope in ways that implies that he is a physician, something I find a little off-putting.
posted by Panjandrum at 6:54 AM on April 19, 2022 [1 favorite]
Point of order, Chubbyemu is a PharmD, not an MD/DO. So while a doctor, he is not a physician. He also has a history of being vague about his training and scope in ways that implies that he is a physician, something I find a little off-putting.
posted by Panjandrum at 6:54 AM on April 19, 2022 [1 favorite]
Panjandrum: ah. That's no good, to keep it obscure like that. I also don't like that he left that one video up when there was no real relationship between the illness and the food -- I'm sorry to give that out, by the way; I didn't realize.
posted by Countess Elena at 8:14 AM on April 19, 2022
posted by Countess Elena at 8:14 AM on April 19, 2022
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This thread has been archived and is closed to new comments
But you've really got to avoid certain things for safety reasons. Rare chicken is not just unorthodox, it can be very unsafe, as an example. These are usually obvious.
So why this guy things he can wander in to preserving meats and just throw the entire playbook away is beyond me. What on earth? And he's not just some lone youtuber, but someone with an editorial staff behind him? Oof.
posted by Dysk at 7:34 AM on April 13, 2022 [14 favorites]