Unclear and Present Danger
April 24, 2022 12:15 PM Subscribe
It happens. You want to rewatch Star Trek VI—the one that is a metaphor for the end of the Cold War—but you’re worried you might miss some of the contemporary political references. In fact, you’re probably feeling there’s no point unless there were some way to connect it to the whole genre of political and military thrillers of the 90s.
Fortunately, there’s the Unclear and Present Danger podcast. America’s foremost cereal reviewer (and NYT columnist) Jamelle Bouie joins John Ganz to talk about how America (and Hollywood) saw itself as the USSR collapsed.
It’s a podcast that’s admittedly become unintentionally and unfortunately topical. Episodes so far include The Hunt for Red October, No Way Out, The Russia House, By Dawn’s Early Light, Patriot Games and others. The full list of planned movies is on Letterboxd; it includes some great films (and even the bad ones are at least from an era where the 90 minute run time made them palatable).
Jamelle Bouie and John Ganz are both on Twitter. Star Trek VI is on Fanfare, which has too few people are claiming that it's the flat out best of the Trek movies.
It’s a podcast that’s admittedly become unintentionally and unfortunately topical. Episodes so far include The Hunt for Red October, No Way Out, The Russia House, By Dawn’s Early Light, Patriot Games and others. The full list of planned movies is on Letterboxd; it includes some great films (and even the bad ones are at least from an era where the 90 minute run time made them palatable).
Jamelle Bouie and John Ganz are both on Twitter. Star Trek VI is on Fanfare, which has too few people are claiming that it's the flat out best of the Trek movies.
Today via this I saw Kurtwood Smith's filmography. Man. Re-watching That 70's Show will never be the same.
posted by y2karl at 2:02 PM on April 24, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by y2karl at 2:02 PM on April 24, 2022 [1 favorite]
This is the one where Kirk goes to the ice gulag right? hoo boy
too few people are claiming that it's the flat out best of the Trek movies
"Double dumbass on you!"
(IV has all the best cornball stuff.)
posted by snuffleupagus at 3:17 PM on April 24, 2022 [4 favorites]
too few people are claiming that it's the flat out best of the Trek movies
"Double dumbass on you!"
(IV has all the best cornball stuff.)
posted by snuffleupagus at 3:17 PM on April 24, 2022 [4 favorites]
Canadian Bacon.
posted by stevil at 3:40 PM on April 24, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by stevil at 3:40 PM on April 24, 2022 [1 favorite]
Man a lot of this is right up my alley and the movies I watched a ton as a kid. I've been pretty resistant to adding more podcasts to my already overloaded list, but I may have to make an exception for this as I love Jamelle Bouie and the movies here.
posted by Carillon at 5:10 PM on April 24, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by Carillon at 5:10 PM on April 24, 2022 [2 favorites]
Star Trek VI is on Fanfare, which has too few people are claiming that it's the flat out best of the Trek movies.
As the person who made that FanFare post, I stick by my evaluation that The Wrath of Khan is better; it's just generally tighter, and a much better updating/reinvention than The Motion Picture. STVI may have captured the geopolitical zeitgeist with uncanny timing (IIRC, the Soviet coup attempt took place during the film's production) and the Khitomer Accords may have been a bigger deal in the Trekverse, but STII was probably more important to the franchise as a whole; I'm not even sure if we'd even still have an active Star Trek franchise forty years later if the second movie had been as critically and commercially disappointing as the first movie. (We almost didn't have a STVI, after STV.)
As for the podcast, I'll give it a try; even though I tend to be more interested in the 80s Cold War movies, it'll be interesting to hear their takes on it.
posted by Halloween Jack at 5:27 PM on April 24, 2022
As the person who made that FanFare post, I stick by my evaluation that The Wrath of Khan is better; it's just generally tighter, and a much better updating/reinvention than The Motion Picture. STVI may have captured the geopolitical zeitgeist with uncanny timing (IIRC, the Soviet coup attempt took place during the film's production) and the Khitomer Accords may have been a bigger deal in the Trekverse, but STII was probably more important to the franchise as a whole; I'm not even sure if we'd even still have an active Star Trek franchise forty years later if the second movie had been as critically and commercially disappointing as the first movie. (We almost didn't have a STVI, after STV.)
As for the podcast, I'll give it a try; even though I tend to be more interested in the 80s Cold War movies, it'll be interesting to hear their takes on it.
posted by Halloween Jack at 5:27 PM on April 24, 2022
Star Trek VI is on Fanfare, which has too few people are claiming that it's the flat out best of the Trek movies.
You're not alone, we're out there - The Undiscovered Country is my all-round favorite Star Trek film.
I'm not sure it could land so well though without previously watching The Wrath of Khan, The Search for Spock, and The Voyage Home, but that's okay. It's a real comfort movie for me. I never need to be in a mood to watch it.
posted by kmartino at 6:04 PM on April 24, 2022 [2 favorites]
You're not alone, we're out there - The Undiscovered Country is my all-round favorite Star Trek film.
I'm not sure it could land so well though without previously watching The Wrath of Khan, The Search for Spock, and The Voyage Home, but that's okay. It's a real comfort movie for me. I never need to be in a mood to watch it.
posted by kmartino at 6:04 PM on April 24, 2022 [2 favorites]
Thanks for this! Jamelle Bouie is fantastic and I'm looking forward to this (and cereal reviews! a man after my own heart).
posted by kitten kaboodle at 8:52 PM on April 24, 2022
posted by kitten kaboodle at 8:52 PM on April 24, 2022
Today via this I saw Kurtwood Smith's filmography
He will never not be Clarence Boddicker to me. Which made That 70s Show quite a trip. I can't help but imagine that something very dark happens to Red to make him change his name and take over Detroit.
posted by wierdo at 2:35 AM on April 25, 2022 [1 favorite]
He will never not be Clarence Boddicker to me. Which made That 70s Show quite a trip. I can't help but imagine that something very dark happens to Red to make him change his name and take over Detroit.
posted by wierdo at 2:35 AM on April 25, 2022 [1 favorite]
I, for one, still have a soft spot for Star Trek V: Attack and De-throne God
posted by Jon_Evil at 4:29 AM on April 25, 2022 [4 favorites]
posted by Jon_Evil at 4:29 AM on April 25, 2022 [4 favorites]
Tried the first three eps (on the Baldwin/Ford Jack Ryan movies). They were kinda neither here nor there for me. Not enough depth on the movies themselves; and no structure at all to the political and social discussions. There's also conjecture about the movies that ignores that these are adapted Clancy novels, in terms of their source material, before remembering that in a different context.
They should have scripted these. Or at least had some kind of an outline. And had sound clips from the movies, of which there are none.
posted by snuffleupagus at 4:43 AM on April 25, 2022 [2 favorites]
They should have scripted these. Or at least had some kind of an outline. And had sound clips from the movies, of which there are none.
posted by snuffleupagus at 4:43 AM on April 25, 2022 [2 favorites]
I tried. I really tried with this podcast. I mainlined the first few episodes when they came out last year, as this is the intersection of two of my passions: cold war mythology and cinema.
Unfortunately, like others have mentioned, I was disappointed by the lack of preparation from the hosts, but moreso by the fact that they were frequently wrong about the movies they were talking about in terms of production details, development, etc. There were often other errors about the context of the time period for each release, including misunderstandings of the entertainment landscape of the era.
When I listen to a podcast like this one, I want to be both entertained and informed by hosts who are both experts on the topic being discussed, as well as engaged to find out as much as possible about it beyond their existing knowledgebase. I came away with the impression of a few dudes who had seen these movies a couple of times, remembered some stuff about them, and maybe did a cursory web search about the rest.
I'm not even going to listen to the latest one about The Undiscovered Country, which is my second-fave Star Trek movie, because I know I would just get upset about all of the above all over again.
posted by jordantwodelta at 5:39 AM on April 25, 2022 [2 favorites]
Unfortunately, like others have mentioned, I was disappointed by the lack of preparation from the hosts, but moreso by the fact that they were frequently wrong about the movies they were talking about in terms of production details, development, etc. There were often other errors about the context of the time period for each release, including misunderstandings of the entertainment landscape of the era.
When I listen to a podcast like this one, I want to be both entertained and informed by hosts who are both experts on the topic being discussed, as well as engaged to find out as much as possible about it beyond their existing knowledgebase. I came away with the impression of a few dudes who had seen these movies a couple of times, remembered some stuff about them, and maybe did a cursory web search about the rest.
I'm not even going to listen to the latest one about The Undiscovered Country, which is my second-fave Star Trek movie, because I know I would just get upset about all of the above all over again.
posted by jordantwodelta at 5:39 AM on April 25, 2022 [2 favorites]
I, for one, still have a soft spot for Star Trek V: Attack and De-throne God
Kirk's "Excuse me, but what does God need with a starship?" followed by Spock's "you did not answer the question" and McCoy's "I doubt any god who inflicts pain for his own pleasure" is pretty awesome. It's too bad the rest of the movie is such a trainwreck and does nothing to earn that payoff.
I do think that Star Trek VI is a better film than Wrath of Khan. Wrath of Khan has maybe a slightly better story, but to be honest, the movie is a little dated. Everyone's just so stiff and the the pacing, while much tighter than The Motion Picture, is still closer to being a 1970s movie than anything more modern. Even Star Trek III "feels" more modern than Wrath of Khan. I don't know whether it's the lack of any leftover model fx work from The Motion Picture or just a more fluid editing but it's definitely different.
And I think Star Trek VI has a better message. The Wrath of Khan is entirely about Khan's Ahab-like pursuit of Kirk and the Enterprise and his inability to see beyond his hatred, but Undiscovered Country is very much about people doing the right thing and not settling old scores when they have the chance. Khan couldn't give up making Kirk suffer, even when he had Genesis and could've ruled the galaxy with it, but Kirk can put aside his animosity for the Klingons for the sake of peace.
posted by RonButNotStupid at 6:42 AM on April 25, 2022 [4 favorites]
Kirk's "Excuse me, but what does God need with a starship?" followed by Spock's "you did not answer the question" and McCoy's "I doubt any god who inflicts pain for his own pleasure" is pretty awesome. It's too bad the rest of the movie is such a trainwreck and does nothing to earn that payoff.
I do think that Star Trek VI is a better film than Wrath of Khan. Wrath of Khan has maybe a slightly better story, but to be honest, the movie is a little dated. Everyone's just so stiff and the the pacing, while much tighter than The Motion Picture, is still closer to being a 1970s movie than anything more modern. Even Star Trek III "feels" more modern than Wrath of Khan. I don't know whether it's the lack of any leftover model fx work from The Motion Picture or just a more fluid editing but it's definitely different.
And I think Star Trek VI has a better message. The Wrath of Khan is entirely about Khan's Ahab-like pursuit of Kirk and the Enterprise and his inability to see beyond his hatred, but Undiscovered Country is very much about people doing the right thing and not settling old scores when they have the chance. Khan couldn't give up making Kirk suffer, even when he had Genesis and could've ruled the galaxy with it, but Kirk can put aside his animosity for the Klingons for the sake of peace.
posted by RonButNotStupid at 6:42 AM on April 25, 2022 [4 favorites]
Even Star Trek III "feels" more modern than Wrath of Khan. I don't know whether it's the lack of any leftover model fx work from The Motion Picture or just a more fluid editing but it's definitely different.
Probably due to the budget. TMP was budgeted at $44 million (although some of that may have been carried over from the abortive attempts at reviving the franchise in the seventies); STII, which redesigned the costumes and much of the look and feel of the refit Enterprise, as well as having some genuine space battles, was given $12 million. Succeeding films got more money to play around with. (By contrast, Star Wars (aka A New Hope) got $11 million in 1977.)
posted by Halloween Jack at 7:21 AM on April 25, 2022 [1 favorite]
Probably due to the budget. TMP was budgeted at $44 million (although some of that may have been carried over from the abortive attempts at reviving the franchise in the seventies); STII, which redesigned the costumes and much of the look and feel of the refit Enterprise, as well as having some genuine space battles, was given $12 million. Succeeding films got more money to play around with. (By contrast, Star Wars (aka A New Hope) got $11 million in 1977.)
posted by Halloween Jack at 7:21 AM on April 25, 2022 [1 favorite]
I, for one, still have a soft spot for Star Trek V: Attack and De-throne God
It drags. Cut it down to a tight 42 minutes and it would have the exact tone and plot of a good episode of the original series.
posted by justsomebodythatyouusedtoknow at 7:24 AM on April 25, 2022 [4 favorites]
It drags. Cut it down to a tight 42 minutes and it would have the exact tone and plot of a good episode of the original series.
posted by justsomebodythatyouusedtoknow at 7:24 AM on April 25, 2022 [4 favorites]
Undiscovered Country also has Worf's grandfather in it. I know we're all so sick and tired of unnecessary prequels bringing out younger versions of characters we already know just to establish some sort of connection, but seeing Michael Dorn unexpectedly show up was just so amazing because up to that point there had been so few crossovers between TOS and TNG. And even though it's Worf's grandfather (Memory Alpha suggests Nick Meyer originally wanted Worf and had to be told that TNG takes many decades later) it's still a nice way of bridging things and reminding everyone that there is a undercurrent of progress to all of these events.
And on that note, I don't know if it was intentional or not, but having the accords take place at "Camp Khitomer" was a genius stroke of continuity. It's a very subtle way of reinforcing Kirk's line about not having run out of history. We know that the Federation and the Klingons still have a long way to go and that this is neither a triumphant victory for the Federation nor is it the final defeat for the Klingons. There's still a ton of history that's waiting to happen and not all of it is pleasant.
posted by RonButNotStupid at 7:50 AM on April 25, 2022 [1 favorite]
And on that note, I don't know if it was intentional or not, but having the accords take place at "Camp Khitomer" was a genius stroke of continuity. It's a very subtle way of reinforcing Kirk's line about not having run out of history. We know that the Federation and the Klingons still have a long way to go and that this is neither a triumphant victory for the Federation nor is it the final defeat for the Klingons. There's still a ton of history that's waiting to happen and not all of it is pleasant.
posted by RonButNotStupid at 7:50 AM on April 25, 2022 [1 favorite]
Interesting. I'm looking forward to this but haven't heard it yet. I'm a big fan of the film. Whether it's *best* is complicated. I'm tempted to argue that it's tied with ST:II and ST:IV, but it's definitely the one I'd recommend to non-trekkies who want to get a big-picture sense of Trek in a couple of hours without stuff that feels quite dated or relies on too much prior knowledge.
For more Trek/Cold-war-cinema crossover podcasts, I recommend the Greatest Generation submarine episodes. (Expect many inside jokes, but also interesting commentary from film professionals who have made a career out of talking about both Trek and War Films.)
In many ways, I think DS9 did a better job at invoking our contemporary political present (at least in rich, western countries) than any of the new Trek series do, even though I love them.
posted by eotvos at 8:18 AM on April 25, 2022 [1 favorite]
For more Trek/Cold-war-cinema crossover podcasts, I recommend the Greatest Generation submarine episodes. (Expect many inside jokes, but also interesting commentary from film professionals who have made a career out of talking about both Trek and War Films.)
In many ways, I think DS9 did a better job at invoking our contemporary political present (at least in rich, western countries) than any of the new Trek series do, even though I love them.
posted by eotvos at 8:18 AM on April 25, 2022 [1 favorite]
Before this podcast inspired me to rewatch Star Trek VI I thought WoK was undeniably the best. Now I think it's got a strong case--for one thing, some stuff I thought was trite when I first watched it seem insightful questions now. So even if WoK had tighter action I think this was thematically very core Trek. (I'll pop over to Fanfare when I have the chance and make the case a bit more.)
On the podcast in general: One topic that came up for discussion repeatedly in the early episodes is the influence the cold war had on how we dealt with some of our uglier American parts. The multi-racial, anti-extremist competence of the good guys (spies/military/government) in these movies was driven by the need to present an appealing vision of the US to ourselves and the rest of the world. I certainly think there's something to that; I was born in 1970 and while all the problems were always there so much nastiness has been mainstreamed.
posted by mark k at 10:13 AM on April 25, 2022 [1 favorite]
On the podcast in general: One topic that came up for discussion repeatedly in the early episodes is the influence the cold war had on how we dealt with some of our uglier American parts. The multi-racial, anti-extremist competence of the good guys (spies/military/government) in these movies was driven by the need to present an appealing vision of the US to ourselves and the rest of the world. I certainly think there's something to that; I was born in 1970 and while all the problems were always there so much nastiness has been mainstreamed.
posted by mark k at 10:13 AM on April 25, 2022 [1 favorite]
Today via this I saw Kurtwood Smith's filmography
I just recently saw him as David Boies in The Dropout, the Theranos miniseries, which also had veteran SF actor Michael Ironside in it. Too bad they didn't have David Warner in it while they were at it...
posted by Halloween Jack at 11:07 AM on April 25, 2022
I just recently saw him as David Boies in The Dropout, the Theranos miniseries, which also had veteran SF actor Michael Ironside in it. Too bad they didn't have David Warner in it while they were at it...
posted by Halloween Jack at 11:07 AM on April 25, 2022
In many ways, I think DS9 did a better job at invoking our contemporary political present (at least in rich, western countries) than any of the new Trek series do, even though I love them.
B5, but that was much of the conceit.
posted by snuffleupagus at 11:10 AM on April 25, 2022 [2 favorites]
B5, but that was much of the conceit.
posted by snuffleupagus at 11:10 AM on April 25, 2022 [2 favorites]
That Russian journalist interrupting a live television broadcast to tell viewers that they're being lied to was right out of Babylon 5. I don't think Babylon 5 the show has held up very well, but it nailed a lot of the present day better than Star Trek did.
posted by RonButNotStupid at 12:02 PM on April 25, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by RonButNotStupid at 12:02 PM on April 25, 2022 [1 favorite]
Or all the various political councils that feature prominently. And the various empires and their insurgencies/factions.
The CGI is very VideoToaster. And JMS can get deep into bathos. But some people love the Reebo and Zootie Gaiman episode (and even the Byron arc), so horses for courses. Plus Londo and G'kar are just great.
posted by snuffleupagus at 12:07 PM on April 25, 2022
The CGI is very VideoToaster. And JMS can get deep into bathos. But some people love the Reebo and Zootie Gaiman episode (and even the Byron arc), so horses for courses. Plus Londo and G'kar are just great.
posted by snuffleupagus at 12:07 PM on April 25, 2022
I tried. I really tried with this podcast.
The podcast really is better in the original Klingon.
I can't comprehend any discussion of VI without at least a reference to that line. It's one of the finest touches in the film, on par with Sulu being captain of a better ship than Kirk.
posted by Ghidorah at 9:25 PM on April 25, 2022 [2 favorites]
The podcast really is better in the original Klingon.
I can't comprehend any discussion of VI without at least a reference to that line. It's one of the finest touches in the film, on par with Sulu being captain of a better ship than Kirk.
posted by Ghidorah at 9:25 PM on April 25, 2022 [2 favorites]
One line was quoted from Red October. One. And they got it wrong. (As well as missing that the plane crash is Navy stock footage.)
No 'one ping only.' No 'some things in here don't react well to bulletsh.' No 'conn, sonar, crazy Ivan.' No 'son, your average Russian doesn't take a dump without a plan.' No 'I was never here, you didn't see me, this didn't happen.'
You can sort of sense at least one of the hosts loved all that stuff, I don't get how it didn't make it in.
I spaced out during the Clear and Present Danger ep, but I don't think they got into all the KNIFE/ACTUAL stuff...
posted by snuffleupagus at 9:47 PM on April 25, 2022 [1 favorite]
No 'one ping only.' No 'some things in here don't react well to bulletsh.' No 'conn, sonar, crazy Ivan.' No 'son, your average Russian doesn't take a dump without a plan.' No 'I was never here, you didn't see me, this didn't happen.'
You can sort of sense at least one of the hosts loved all that stuff, I don't get how it didn't make it in.
I spaced out during the Clear and Present Danger ep, but I don't think they got into all the KNIFE/ACTUAL stuff...
posted by snuffleupagus at 9:47 PM on April 25, 2022 [1 favorite]
Make that two, they also talk a lot about the final line about some revolution being healthy. Which I gather figures prominently in the Ganz's chapter on the movie.
posted by snuffleupagus at 9:54 PM on April 25, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by snuffleupagus at 9:54 PM on April 25, 2022 [1 favorite]
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