How Gymnastics Breaks A Gymnast
May 6, 2022 9:08 AM Subscribe
Writing for Defector, Diana Moskovitz recounts the stories of three gymnasts from the Midwest Gymnastics and the abuse, neglect, and harm they suffered at the hands of gym owner and coach Jess Graba and his spouse and fellow coach Alison Lim.
Part of what brought the women forward was the fact that Graba, as the coach for Tokyo women's all-around champion Suni Lee, is a front runner for taking on the head coaching position for the national team with USA Gymnastics. (It's worth noting that similar complaints scuttled Valeri Liukin's bid for the position.) But most of all, the women want to highlight the abusive culture of gymnastics training in the US, even at the lower levels.
Part of what brought the women forward was the fact that Graba, as the coach for Tokyo women's all-around champion Suni Lee, is a front runner for taking on the head coaching position for the national team with USA Gymnastics. (It's worth noting that similar complaints scuttled Valeri Liukin's bid for the position.) But most of all, the women want to highlight the abusive culture of gymnastics training in the US, even at the lower levels.
"You have to trust us. None of you were Olympians yourselves. You don’t know what it takes,” Sarah said. Sarah’s parents, Kevin and Doreen Swanson, also recalled the meeting and being told that injuries were just going to happen"
This is child abuse. What it takes, apparently, is child abuse.
posted by mhoye at 9:34 AM on May 6, 2022 [15 favorites]
This is child abuse. What it takes, apparently, is child abuse.
posted by mhoye at 9:34 AM on May 6, 2022 [15 favorites]
Why must we have, or continue to support, a sport with so much bad baggage and risk?
Are seeing lithe young bodies bend and contort into extremes THAT wonderful? Is there truly no alternative that satisfies the competition with, stretch, balance and need for movement in young girls?
I don’t get why, despite every year some fresh horror is attached to this “sport” we still have so many people without the imagination to reform or replace it. How many girls have to be sacrificed for the system to be shut down? Why is it considered impossible to do so?
Once upon a time we had “sculpting” in the Olympics. We got rid of it. No one died.
posted by Dressed to Kill at 9:54 AM on May 6, 2022 [16 favorites]
Are seeing lithe young bodies bend and contort into extremes THAT wonderful? Is there truly no alternative that satisfies the competition with, stretch, balance and need for movement in young girls?
I don’t get why, despite every year some fresh horror is attached to this “sport” we still have so many people without the imagination to reform or replace it. How many girls have to be sacrificed for the system to be shut down? Why is it considered impossible to do so?
Once upon a time we had “sculpting” in the Olympics. We got rid of it. No one died.
posted by Dressed to Kill at 9:54 AM on May 6, 2022 [16 favorites]
Why must we have, or continue to support, a sport with so much bad baggage and risk?
Not this bullshit argument again.
If you read the article, you would have noted that two of the whistleblowers are still active in the gymnastics community (hence why they are kept pseudonymous) and noted that they thrived once they were taken out of the abusive environment and put in a gym that actually looked out for them. Many of the athletes who were abused still love the sport - as Simone Bliles pointed out, she wasn't going to let those who abused her take the sport from her. It's also worth noting that your argument is built on taking agency away from those athletes, just in a overly paternalistic "for their welfare" manner.
Beyond that, you're not even addressing the actual issues, which boil down to the fact that at many levels of athletic endeavor, coaches are given way too much power, abuse is considered part of successful coaching, and that women athletes in particular are not taken seriously when they voice their concerns and complaints. Banning gymnastics would do nothing to fix those root issues.
In short, your position is bad because you are only looking at it from the outside and how it makes you feel, and are refusing to actually get to know how the situation is for those involved.
posted by NoxAeternum at 10:14 AM on May 6, 2022 [33 favorites]
Not this bullshit argument again.
If you read the article, you would have noted that two of the whistleblowers are still active in the gymnastics community (hence why they are kept pseudonymous) and noted that they thrived once they were taken out of the abusive environment and put in a gym that actually looked out for them. Many of the athletes who were abused still love the sport - as Simone Bliles pointed out, she wasn't going to let those who abused her take the sport from her. It's also worth noting that your argument is built on taking agency away from those athletes, just in a overly paternalistic "for their welfare" manner.
Beyond that, you're not even addressing the actual issues, which boil down to the fact that at many levels of athletic endeavor, coaches are given way too much power, abuse is considered part of successful coaching, and that women athletes in particular are not taken seriously when they voice their concerns and complaints. Banning gymnastics would do nothing to fix those root issues.
In short, your position is bad because you are only looking at it from the outside and how it makes you feel, and are refusing to actually get to know how the situation is for those involved.
posted by NoxAeternum at 10:14 AM on May 6, 2022 [33 favorites]
The most horrifying thing about all of this is that the abuse wins medals.
posted by jenfullmoon at 10:32 AM on May 6, 2022 [3 favorites]
posted by jenfullmoon at 10:32 AM on May 6, 2022 [3 favorites]
Banning gymnastics, I would argue, would totally remove these specific conditions for abusing children in a very specific way, I’d argue.
It's arguing that stopping abuse is just too hard a problem to solve, so the answer is to take away a sport that these athletes love and enjoy "for their own sake" while not actually resolving the underlying issues that are enabling the abuse not only in gymnastics, but in a large number of other sports with both men and women. It's also ignoring what the actual athletes impacted are calling for - they want help and support in getting rid of the abuse, not to see their sport killed to appease someone for whom ending the sport would mean little personally.
If you don't understand why someone would enjoy performing in a certain athletic endeavor, that's fine. But recognize that also means that you don't actually understand what is going on, and that means you need to listen to the people involved, rather than argue that you're going to take away something they love for their own good.
posted by NoxAeternum at 11:16 AM on May 6, 2022 [15 favorites]
It's arguing that stopping abuse is just too hard a problem to solve, so the answer is to take away a sport that these athletes love and enjoy "for their own sake" while not actually resolving the underlying issues that are enabling the abuse not only in gymnastics, but in a large number of other sports with both men and women. It's also ignoring what the actual athletes impacted are calling for - they want help and support in getting rid of the abuse, not to see their sport killed to appease someone for whom ending the sport would mean little personally.
If you don't understand why someone would enjoy performing in a certain athletic endeavor, that's fine. But recognize that also means that you don't actually understand what is going on, and that means you need to listen to the people involved, rather than argue that you're going to take away something they love for their own good.
posted by NoxAeternum at 11:16 AM on May 6, 2022 [15 favorites]
If you don't pay attention to the articles about abuse happening in just about every other sport, then it would seem to make sense to ban gymnastics. But abuse does happen in every other sport — and in fact in every arena in which adults have power over kids. The problem isn't gymnastics, it's much larger than that.
posted by mcduff at 11:28 AM on May 6, 2022 [34 favorites]
posted by mcduff at 11:28 AM on May 6, 2022 [34 favorites]
It feels like every week this year there's a new story on the CBC about a new set of Canadian athletes demanding that a set of high performance coaches and team managers for some Olympic sport or another be removed from their positions of authority because they are abusive to the athletes. And those are, generally speaking, adult athletes who have already reached the highest echelons of their sports. Unless you want to ban all competitive sports, I don't think banning gymnastics is going to do much of anything to solve this problem.
posted by jacquilynne at 11:28 AM on May 6, 2022 [8 favorites]
posted by jacquilynne at 11:28 AM on May 6, 2022 [8 favorites]
The most horrifying thing about all of this is that the abuse wins medals
Because it's The Way It's Done. That is the training method that defines the sport and its language of judgement. It doesn't have to be that way; there are other sports that have had more abusive training practices that have reformed and resulted in better athletes.
There's no doubt that mental conditioning is part of excellence in any endeavor, but it would appear that the psychology of improvement has some relics of the past that have been harmful and it's taking some time to transition away from them. Sadly, but history grinds on.
posted by rhizome at 11:29 AM on May 6, 2022 [6 favorites]
Because it's The Way It's Done. That is the training method that defines the sport and its language of judgement. It doesn't have to be that way; there are other sports that have had more abusive training practices that have reformed and resulted in better athletes.
There's no doubt that mental conditioning is part of excellence in any endeavor, but it would appear that the psychology of improvement has some relics of the past that have been harmful and it's taking some time to transition away from them. Sadly, but history grinds on.
posted by rhizome at 11:29 AM on May 6, 2022 [6 favorites]
I don’t think we should ban it I think we should shame it then. In gymnastics, as an outsider, based on these articles on the blue, abuse is part and parcel of
Making a Good Winner. It’s a feature not a bug.
posted by Dressed to Kill at 11:31 AM on May 6, 2022 [1 favorite]
Making a Good Winner. It’s a feature not a bug.
posted by Dressed to Kill at 11:31 AM on May 6, 2022 [1 favorite]
I don't think gymnastics is awful all the time across the board. I presume non-competitive gymnastics isn't horrible, I don't hear horrible college gymnastics stories. However, super competitive/elite gymnastics is (as far as I can tell, most of the time) very, very frequently abusive and unhealthy since that's the culture that gets people medals.
Disclaimer: never did gymnastics since I'm about as flexible as your average pet rock.
posted by jenfullmoon at 11:31 AM on May 6, 2022 [1 favorite]
Disclaimer: never did gymnastics since I'm about as flexible as your average pet rock.
posted by jenfullmoon at 11:31 AM on May 6, 2022 [1 favorite]
From the article: "The parents were invited to a big meeting, where they were told, “100 percent of your children will be injured.” (To make them feel safe, they also were introduced to one of the trainers: Larry Nassar.)"
posted by jenfullmoon at 11:34 AM on May 6, 2022 [4 favorites]
posted by jenfullmoon at 11:34 AM on May 6, 2022 [4 favorites]
I don’t care.
And this is why your argument fails - because you don't care what the athletes want. All that matters to you is that This Sport Is Irredeemably Bad by your judgment, and thus it must be ended even though doing so would harm those athletes competing, while doing nothing to actually address the problem with abuse in sport. Your argument against porn actually illustrates the fatal flaw clearly, as sex workers routinely talk about how attacking porn as a whole for being abusive leads to policies that actually harm sex workers being pushed "for their own good", even though they explain in detail why those policies will hurt them.
But you don't care and that's why your argument is bullshit.
Is there a better argument that gymnast lovers can make other than “you just don’t understand the sport”?
Yes, one that people have been pointing out from the start - "listen to what the actual gymnasts want." But as you pointed out, you don't care.
posted by NoxAeternum at 12:01 PM on May 6, 2022 [15 favorites]
And this is why your argument fails - because you don't care what the athletes want. All that matters to you is that This Sport Is Irredeemably Bad by your judgment, and thus it must be ended even though doing so would harm those athletes competing, while doing nothing to actually address the problem with abuse in sport. Your argument against porn actually illustrates the fatal flaw clearly, as sex workers routinely talk about how attacking porn as a whole for being abusive leads to policies that actually harm sex workers being pushed "for their own good", even though they explain in detail why those policies will hurt them.
But you don't care and that's why your argument is bullshit.
Is there a better argument that gymnast lovers can make other than “you just don’t understand the sport”?
Yes, one that people have been pointing out from the start - "listen to what the actual gymnasts want." But as you pointed out, you don't care.
posted by NoxAeternum at 12:01 PM on May 6, 2022 [15 favorites]
You and I have different definitions of harm I guess
posted by Dressed to Kill at 12:02 PM on May 6, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by Dressed to Kill at 12:02 PM on May 6, 2022 [1 favorite]
From the article: "The parents were invited to a big meeting, where they were told, “100 percent of your children will be injured.” (To make them feel safe, they also were introduced to one of the trainers: Larry Nassar.)"
It's worth noting that the likely speaker of that statement, when he finally faced actual repercussions from that attitude, chose to commit suicide rather than be held to account.
posted by NoxAeternum at 12:06 PM on May 6, 2022 [5 favorites]
It's worth noting that the likely speaker of that statement, when he finally faced actual repercussions from that attitude, chose to commit suicide rather than be held to account.
posted by NoxAeternum at 12:06 PM on May 6, 2022 [5 favorites]
A sport doesn’t have to be irredeemably bad to end - it just has to be bad, dangerous and have a long track record of unchecked abuse.
The fact is more people don’t care about gymnastics than do, and my not caring about the sport doesn’t mean I don’t care about girls and women. I’d argue that by defending gymnastics by calling my argument “bullshit” because you don’t agree with it doesn’t make it a bad argument. I don’t have to be a porn star to hate porn. Or a police officer to want to defund the police. Defund and gut gymnastics! For the same reasons why we should dismantle all forms of physical and mental coercion of girls.
But even if you were right and the world loves gymnastics, just because something is popular doesn’t mean it’s ethical.
posted by Dressed to Kill at 12:07 PM on May 6, 2022 [4 favorites]
The fact is more people don’t care about gymnastics than do, and my not caring about the sport doesn’t mean I don’t care about girls and women. I’d argue that by defending gymnastics by calling my argument “bullshit” because you don’t agree with it doesn’t make it a bad argument. I don’t have to be a porn star to hate porn. Or a police officer to want to defund the police. Defund and gut gymnastics! For the same reasons why we should dismantle all forms of physical and mental coercion of girls.
But even if you were right and the world loves gymnastics, just because something is popular doesn’t mean it’s ethical.
posted by Dressed to Kill at 12:07 PM on May 6, 2022 [4 favorites]
Just checking, are we only banning women's gymnastics - do the men get to continue demonstrating this form of athleticism in the Olympics while women are prevented from having the opportunity to compete?
posted by BlueBlueElectricBlue at 12:13 PM on May 6, 2022 [6 favorites]
posted by BlueBlueElectricBlue at 12:13 PM on May 6, 2022 [6 favorites]
Based on the posts I’ve read on the blue, women are particularly vulnerable in this context and boys are the exception. Im specifically arguing from the position that Larry Nasser officially ruined gymnastics forever. And his victims were girls. We can bring boys and men in too but that’s a little “all lives matter” for my point.
posted by Dressed to Kill at 12:15 PM on May 6, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by Dressed to Kill at 12:15 PM on May 6, 2022 [1 favorite]
Also calling this an “opportunity to compete” is like saying a porn star has an “opportunity” at a film career: possible but wrought with issues
posted by Dressed to Kill at 12:16 PM on May 6, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by Dressed to Kill at 12:16 PM on May 6, 2022 [1 favorite]
Wow, that's kind of a wild twist on what I was pointing out. It's not "all lives matter" it's that if you killed women's gymnastics entirely you would be adding to one more space where men get the infrastructure to be elite athletes, but women don't.
Big difference between "fix this" and "destroy this".
posted by BlueBlueElectricBlue at 12:19 PM on May 6, 2022 [9 favorites]
Big difference between "fix this" and "destroy this".
posted by BlueBlueElectricBlue at 12:19 PM on May 6, 2022 [9 favorites]
Blue you’re taking what I’m saying into another place - this isn’t about men or boys unless it’s an exception. It’s silly I have to say this but no, im not advocating for boys and men to fill the gymnastics vacuum. Im
Saying the sport needs to go.
posted by Dressed to Kill at 12:25 PM on May 6, 2022
Saying the sport needs to go.
posted by Dressed to Kill at 12:25 PM on May 6, 2022
You're not going to find a sport that girls participate in that doesn't have some abuse happening at the hands of male coaches. There just isn't one. So our options are "ban girls from competitive sports," "let the abuse continue," or "stop the abusers so girls can continue to be athletic in the way they choose." I'm going with option C.
posted by The corpse in the library at 12:41 PM on May 6, 2022 [22 favorites]
posted by The corpse in the library at 12:41 PM on May 6, 2022 [22 favorites]
The most horrifying thing about all of this is that the abuse wins medals.
Well... yes and no.
Abusive coaching techniques are a crucible. Through them, some athletes reach new heights. But more are pushed out, burnt out, injured.
Someone, I suppose, could make a case that that's "worth it."
But I've known many athletes who've experienced abusive coaching techniques, got out and got healthier and wound up becoming more successful. From witnessing that (and from witnessing people burn bright and burn out), it's clear to me that balance and sustainability is the key to getting more athletes able to live up to their potential. That healthy sport lets people perform better for longer.
It's just harder for abusive coaches to convince themselves that the success is theirs.
posted by entropone at 12:46 PM on May 6, 2022 [6 favorites]
Well... yes and no.
Abusive coaching techniques are a crucible. Through them, some athletes reach new heights. But more are pushed out, burnt out, injured.
Someone, I suppose, could make a case that that's "worth it."
But I've known many athletes who've experienced abusive coaching techniques, got out and got healthier and wound up becoming more successful. From witnessing that (and from witnessing people burn bright and burn out), it's clear to me that balance and sustainability is the key to getting more athletes able to live up to their potential. That healthy sport lets people perform better for longer.
It's just harder for abusive coaches to convince themselves that the success is theirs.
posted by entropone at 12:46 PM on May 6, 2022 [6 favorites]
It is possible to be a successful gymnast without the abuse. It is possible to train and coach gymnasts without the abuse. Part of the problem is gyms and coaches in loco parentis with children and young people who have very little agency in the eyes of the trainers. It's the medals at any cost attitude and conditioning, when there ARE real long-term costs, and that's a thing that *can be fixed*. The systems are sick, and our athletes deserve better, from their clubs to USAG and NCAA. Dismantle the existing systems and build new training pipelines that are driven by the needs of the gymnasts that train there. Elite gymnasts don't have to be still-growing teenagers; look at Chellsie Memmel or Oksana Chusovitina. The men's side regularly compete into their 30's, what would it look like if the path was clubs->college->olympics instead of hoping to stay healthy enough to compete in college?
posted by ApathyGirl at 12:46 PM on May 6, 2022 [10 favorites]
posted by ApathyGirl at 12:46 PM on May 6, 2022 [10 favorites]
> why is comparative flexibility a winnable thing? Bizarre unless you really need to see young lithe girls do flexible stuff.
I question if you're arguing in good faith. If you are: your ignorance about gymnastics is showing.
posted by The corpse in the library at 12:52 PM on May 6, 2022 [9 favorites]
I question if you're arguing in good faith. If you are: your ignorance about gymnastics is showing.
posted by The corpse in the library at 12:52 PM on May 6, 2022 [9 favorites]
Mod note: A couple comments deleted, please avoid turning the thread into a 1-on-1 discussion.
posted by loup (staff) at 12:53 PM on May 6, 2022 [9 favorites]
posted by loup (staff) at 12:53 PM on May 6, 2022 [9 favorites]
Saying my argument, which is pretty cogent and consistent, is “shit” is just your knee jerk reaction.
Your argument isn't actually all that cogent and consistent. First you say we should ban the sport. Then you say we shouldn't ban it, we should shame it. Then you say recreational gymnastics is okay, but competitive gymnastics isn't.
You also seem to think the fundamental nature of gymnastics is sexualization of little girls which is either a sideline too or the fundamental underpinning of all your arguments and it isn't at all clear which it is.
posted by jacquilynne at 12:59 PM on May 6, 2022 [6 favorites]
Your argument isn't actually all that cogent and consistent. First you say we should ban the sport. Then you say we shouldn't ban it, we should shame it. Then you say recreational gymnastics is okay, but competitive gymnastics isn't.
You also seem to think the fundamental nature of gymnastics is sexualization of little girls which is either a sideline too or the fundamental underpinning of all your arguments and it isn't at all clear which it is.
posted by jacquilynne at 12:59 PM on May 6, 2022 [6 favorites]
What the hell is an “elite gymnast” anyway? Someone who has been broken into an unnatural mould?
Elite is a competitive level, not a superlative descriptor based on someone's opinion.
Elite artistic gymnasts are the best gymnasts in the world, competing for rankings and medals. Elite gymnastics begin once a gymnast has surpassed level 10 and met the elite requirements. In the United States, elite gymnasts are members of USA Gymnastics and follow the Federation de Internationale Code of Points.
On preview, there you go.
posted by ApathyGirl at 1:01 PM on May 6, 2022 [4 favorites]
Elite is a competitive level, not a superlative descriptor based on someone's opinion.
Elite artistic gymnasts are the best gymnasts in the world, competing for rankings and medals. Elite gymnastics begin once a gymnast has surpassed level 10 and met the elite requirements. In the United States, elite gymnasts are members of USA Gymnastics and follow the Federation de Internationale Code of Points.
On preview, there you go.
posted by ApathyGirl at 1:01 PM on May 6, 2022 [4 favorites]
Text is from the very first link if you google 'what is elite gymnastics', by the way.
posted by ApathyGirl at 1:02 PM on May 6, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by ApathyGirl at 1:02 PM on May 6, 2022 [2 favorites]
Just got to this part:
According to a previous interview with the Minnesota Daily, the couple met when Jess Graba, along with his brother, started coaching Lim at the age of four.
Great, cool, very uncreepy, no red flags here
posted by cubeb at 1:04 PM on May 6, 2022 [7 favorites]
According to a previous interview with the Minnesota Daily, the couple met when Jess Graba, along with his brother, started coaching Lim at the age of four.
Great, cool, very uncreepy, no red flags here
posted by cubeb at 1:04 PM on May 6, 2022 [7 favorites]
Big difference between "fix this" and "destroy this".
The thing about institutional politics that makes it Institutional Politics is that the processes are deeply resistant to staff turnover or any individual actions. That's how the institutions got to be institutions. Practically speaking, if the inputs, incentives and risks don't change, it very nearly doesn't matter who's trying to "fix" things, the resulting institution will end up pretty much the same.
Sometimes you can't save an institution, in that context. You have to take a hard reset and agree to different goals with different poeple.
posted by mhoye at 1:04 PM on May 6, 2022 [4 favorites]
The thing about institutional politics that makes it Institutional Politics is that the processes are deeply resistant to staff turnover or any individual actions. That's how the institutions got to be institutions. Practically speaking, if the inputs, incentives and risks don't change, it very nearly doesn't matter who's trying to "fix" things, the resulting institution will end up pretty much the same.
Sometimes you can't save an institution, in that context. You have to take a hard reset and agree to different goals with different poeple.
posted by mhoye at 1:04 PM on May 6, 2022 [4 favorites]
@ Dressed to Kill - if there was not a safe way for children to do this activity, I would support a ban.
There is an emotionally, physically safe way to do and coach this activity.
Let’s ban the unsafe way.
posted by Silvery Fish at 1:08 PM on May 6, 2022 [5 favorites]
There is an emotionally, physically safe way to do and coach this activity.
Let’s ban the unsafe way.
posted by Silvery Fish at 1:08 PM on May 6, 2022 [5 favorites]
Predators are drawn to lots of things. Summer camps, theaters, schools, and so on.
Predators are drawn to positions where they hold power over other people (often children) and they certainly thrive in especially dysfunctional environments full of broken systems.
Little girls get hurt by strangers who are supposed to be nurturing and supporting them in ALL kinds of places and ways.
I'm as grossed out as anyone with a heart by the horrifying fetishization of children. I'm just saying that if we decide to ban gymnastics because of fundamental problems with our culture, we may as well ban all sorts of things.
Some gyms are safe spaces, some are full of predators. Same goes for churches.
posted by RobinofFrocksley at 1:20 PM on May 6, 2022 [13 favorites]
Predators are drawn to positions where they hold power over other people (often children) and they certainly thrive in especially dysfunctional environments full of broken systems.
Little girls get hurt by strangers who are supposed to be nurturing and supporting them in ALL kinds of places and ways.
I'm as grossed out as anyone with a heart by the horrifying fetishization of children. I'm just saying that if we decide to ban gymnastics because of fundamental problems with our culture, we may as well ban all sorts of things.
Some gyms are safe spaces, some are full of predators. Same goes for churches.
posted by RobinofFrocksley at 1:20 PM on May 6, 2022 [13 favorites]
These are skill and competition level programs and leagues. Not all gymnasts want to compete at the elite level, or be in an Olympic-track training program. NCAA Div I gymnastics compete and are judged at level 10+ (the plus being Elite). NCAA Div 2 and Div 3 stop at level 10 or even 9.
There's other gymnastics programs, including the program run by AAU. The difference being (quote):
AAU gymnastics’ goal is to let athletes compete and learn lessons and tools that will help them throughout life. USA gymnastics’ goal is to train exceptional gymnasts; one of their responsibilities is to train and select the US gymnastics teams for the Olympics and World Championships. Because of this, AAU rules are less strict ( designed more for fun and less for producing superb gymnasts) than USA gymnastics rules so the scores at AAU meets tend to be higher and the competitions more relaxed.
Even within USAG, there are different programs and levels, more info here.
So, yeah. I guess all that does equal out to 'girls get to compete who is most flexible, balanced and coordinated, for medals?'. Much in the same way that Pop Warner feeds to high school football feeds to college feeds to pro, so boys can win cups and bowls and rings, right? And those pipelines have never had any impropriety, or systematic covering-up of injuries, because I'm sure if they had SOMEONE would have jumped up to demand the end of that sport.
posted by ApathyGirl at 1:23 PM on May 6, 2022 [8 favorites]
There's other gymnastics programs, including the program run by AAU. The difference being (quote):
AAU gymnastics’ goal is to let athletes compete and learn lessons and tools that will help them throughout life. USA gymnastics’ goal is to train exceptional gymnasts; one of their responsibilities is to train and select the US gymnastics teams for the Olympics and World Championships. Because of this, AAU rules are less strict ( designed more for fun and less for producing superb gymnasts) than USA gymnastics rules so the scores at AAU meets tend to be higher and the competitions more relaxed.
Even within USAG, there are different programs and levels, more info here.
So, yeah. I guess all that does equal out to 'girls get to compete who is most flexible, balanced and coordinated, for medals?'. Much in the same way that Pop Warner feeds to high school football feeds to college feeds to pro, so boys can win cups and bowls and rings, right? And those pipelines have never had any impropriety, or systematic covering-up of injuries, because I'm sure if they had SOMEONE would have jumped up to demand the end of that sport.
posted by ApathyGirl at 1:23 PM on May 6, 2022 [8 favorites]
And if you don’t think sexualizing girls is not part of gymnastics I guess we don’t have a sexual abuse problem at all then since it must be entirely asexual to the coaches who do the abusing
Women and girls are sexualized in literally everything they do. In gymnastics, it's a little more than some things, a little less than some other things. But your repeated references to 'lithe young bodies' seem to suggest that you see the sexualization of women and girls to be the primary driver of the sport, that it wouldn't exist at all without that. I think a lot of people here disagree with that unsupported assertion. Do you really think that there's nothing else of value in the sport, no reason why women and girls would like to practice that sport and compete it in?
Banning competitive gymnastics would protect women from being abused by gymnastics coaches, but it wouldn't protect them from being abused in cheerleading, bobsled, basketball, soccer, etc.
There's no end of things you can forbid women to participate in for their own protection if that's the path you want to go down. Film and TV, trades jobs, the military, etc.
posted by jacquilynne at 1:27 PM on May 6, 2022 [33 favorites]
Women and girls are sexualized in literally everything they do. In gymnastics, it's a little more than some things, a little less than some other things. But your repeated references to 'lithe young bodies' seem to suggest that you see the sexualization of women and girls to be the primary driver of the sport, that it wouldn't exist at all without that. I think a lot of people here disagree with that unsupported assertion. Do you really think that there's nothing else of value in the sport, no reason why women and girls would like to practice that sport and compete it in?
Banning competitive gymnastics would protect women from being abused by gymnastics coaches, but it wouldn't protect them from being abused in cheerleading, bobsled, basketball, soccer, etc.
There's no end of things you can forbid women to participate in for their own protection if that's the path you want to go down. Film and TV, trades jobs, the military, etc.
posted by jacquilynne at 1:27 PM on May 6, 2022 [33 favorites]
None of that definition means anything other than girls get to compete who is most flexible, balanced and coordinated, no? For medals? If this didn’t exist would you invent it?
All sports are made up. Why does it make any sense at all for grown men to smash into each other bodily to move an inflated ball up and down a random patch of grass for "points"? At least medals are made of precious metal...points are just tabulations of ball-moving successes. If [any sport] didn't exist, would you invent it? It's all Calvinball at some point.
Still no compelling argument for gymnastics.
As you've said, that would be a response to your personal opinions about gymnastics; but this thread (and site) are not for us to defend your strawmen. You have an opinion; others have different opinions. So it goes. Folks may just want to have a conversation in this shared space of a thread that is different than the one you keep insisting upon the rest of us having. Maybe allow space for that?
posted by LooseFilter at 1:56 PM on May 6, 2022 [20 favorites]
All sports are made up. Why does it make any sense at all for grown men to smash into each other bodily to move an inflated ball up and down a random patch of grass for "points"? At least medals are made of precious metal...points are just tabulations of ball-moving successes. If [any sport] didn't exist, would you invent it? It's all Calvinball at some point.
Still no compelling argument for gymnastics.
As you've said, that would be a response to your personal opinions about gymnastics; but this thread (and site) are not for us to defend your strawmen. You have an opinion; others have different opinions. So it goes. Folks may just want to have a conversation in this shared space of a thread that is different than the one you keep insisting upon the rest of us having. Maybe allow space for that?
posted by LooseFilter at 1:56 PM on May 6, 2022 [20 favorites]
Gymnastics is specifically more terrible than other sports because it prizes being short and lightweight - which generally translates into young and prepubescent. There's a short window of opportunity when you're legally allowed to be in the Olympics, and when puberty hits and you're suddenly too tall to be a gymnast. (Also probably constant injuries add up)
Gymnastics all-around champions by age: There hasn't been a women's all-round winner over the age of 20 since 1972, and the current age requirement is 16. Not a big time window if you want to be the best.
What other sports pose questions like, "Is age ten too old to start?"
posted by meowzilla at 2:15 PM on May 6, 2022 [4 favorites]
Gymnastics all-around champions by age: There hasn't been a women's all-round winner over the age of 20 since 1972, and the current age requirement is 16. Not a big time window if you want to be the best.
What other sports pose questions like, "Is age ten too old to start?"
posted by meowzilla at 2:15 PM on May 6, 2022 [4 favorites]
What other sports pose questions like, "Is age ten too old to start?"
Tennis for one.
posted by Sphinx at 2:21 PM on May 6, 2022 [4 favorites]
Tennis for one.
posted by Sphinx at 2:21 PM on May 6, 2022 [4 favorites]
What other sports pose questions like, "Is age ten too old to start?"
A lot of sports actually - elite competition is such that many of the top players do begin training in their childhood. Not to mention other fields like music have this issue as well.
Gymnastics is specifically more terrible than other sports because it prizes being short and lightweight - which generally translates into young and prepubescent.
Again, this is purely a function of the sport and how it sets its skills - the sport could easily change the way the competition is handled to more focus on strength, which would put being too young to build a more muscular physique as a disadvantage.
posted by NoxAeternum at 2:24 PM on May 6, 2022 [21 favorites]
A lot of sports actually - elite competition is such that many of the top players do begin training in their childhood. Not to mention other fields like music have this issue as well.
Gymnastics is specifically more terrible than other sports because it prizes being short and lightweight - which generally translates into young and prepubescent.
Again, this is purely a function of the sport and how it sets its skills - the sport could easily change the way the competition is handled to more focus on strength, which would put being too young to build a more muscular physique as a disadvantage.
posted by NoxAeternum at 2:24 PM on May 6, 2022 [21 favorites]
Hands down, the most cruel, hateful, and abusive people I have met in my life have all been sports coaches.
posted by vibrotronica at 2:27 PM on May 6, 2022 [10 favorites]
posted by vibrotronica at 2:27 PM on May 6, 2022 [10 favorites]
What other sports pose questions like, "Is age ten too old to start?"
Not a sport (per se) but this is often asked in the performing arts. Where there is also a lot of abuse.
posted by LooseFilter at 2:30 PM on May 6, 2022 [10 favorites]
Not a sport (per se) but this is often asked in the performing arts. Where there is also a lot of abuse.
posted by LooseFilter at 2:30 PM on May 6, 2022 [10 favorites]
Gymnastics all-around champions by age: There hasn't been a women's all-round winner over the age of 20 since 1972, and the current age requirement is 16. Not a big time window if you want to be the best
It's worth noting that the age drop followed Nadia Comăneci's perfect score, and then the Karolyis defecting to the US and establishing their model on USAG. One of the hopes with their fall from grace is that their model will also wind up in the dustbin of history.
posted by NoxAeternum at 2:51 PM on May 6, 2022 [7 favorites]
It's worth noting that the age drop followed Nadia Comăneci's perfect score, and then the Karolyis defecting to the US and establishing their model on USAG. One of the hopes with their fall from grace is that their model will also wind up in the dustbin of history.
posted by NoxAeternum at 2:51 PM on May 6, 2022 [7 favorites]
Something to reflect upon: we've banned the old sport of sharp bladed, unpadded fencing, the type that was popular in the German aristocracy; I don't think we really have jousting as it was practiced in the middle age (more of pantomime jousting). Gladiatorial fighting and the Aztec ball game are gone too. And we don't allow Lacrosse the way the Algonquins used to play it. Wrestling is no longer the fearsome pankration of old.
Similarly, gone are burning cats for amusement; bull-fighting is almost gone; cock-fights are illegal.
Perhaps the time has come for a movement to ban the sports of American Grid-iron football and gymnastics, just as we no longer suffer pistol dueling, gladiator matches, and sharp-blade fencing.
Perhaps we are awakening to the truth that these so-called sports are really just ritualized and institutionalized cycles of child abuse, a relentless spin cycle of brainwashing and indoctrination. They're cults, is what I'm saying. And they should be treated like the cults they are.
posted by LeRoienJaune at 3:36 PM on May 6, 2022 [9 favorites]
Similarly, gone are burning cats for amusement; bull-fighting is almost gone; cock-fights are illegal.
Perhaps the time has come for a movement to ban the sports of American Grid-iron football and gymnastics, just as we no longer suffer pistol dueling, gladiator matches, and sharp-blade fencing.
Perhaps we are awakening to the truth that these so-called sports are really just ritualized and institutionalized cycles of child abuse, a relentless spin cycle of brainwashing and indoctrination. They're cults, is what I'm saying. And they should be treated like the cults they are.
posted by LeRoienJaune at 3:36 PM on May 6, 2022 [9 favorites]
Still no compelling argument for gymnastics.
There doesn't have to be one. "Because it's there." People like doing stuff, then they organize doing stuff together. At its base, gymnastics is an individual sport. A person could practice gymnastics all of their life, never compete once and still be great.
It happens in skateboarding, where the vast, vast majority of participants never compete, but many could and do very well. I think it might also be true of ice skating. This is the individual aspect, surpassing oneself. Where it gets team oriented and competitive is where the war mentalities start showing up. This doesn't have to be destructive, but it often is.
Separate the training regimens from the sport itself and it starts to look fixable. There is nothing inherently bad about doing jumpy spinny tricks with your body.
posted by rhizome at 3:59 PM on May 6, 2022 [15 favorites]
There doesn't have to be one. "Because it's there." People like doing stuff, then they organize doing stuff together. At its base, gymnastics is an individual sport. A person could practice gymnastics all of their life, never compete once and still be great.
It happens in skateboarding, where the vast, vast majority of participants never compete, but many could and do very well. I think it might also be true of ice skating. This is the individual aspect, surpassing oneself. Where it gets team oriented and competitive is where the war mentalities start showing up. This doesn't have to be destructive, but it often is.
Separate the training regimens from the sport itself and it starts to look fixable. There is nothing inherently bad about doing jumpy spinny tricks with your body.
posted by rhizome at 3:59 PM on May 6, 2022 [15 favorites]
Dressed to Kill, you have been a member for seven years and should know better than going full Horatio at the bridge against all comers. Trying to have the last word over and over and over is a fool's errand. If you have to repeat yourself ad infinitum, you persuade no one.
posted by y2karl at 4:07 PM on May 6, 2022 [12 favorites]
posted by y2karl at 4:07 PM on May 6, 2022 [12 favorites]
Wrestling is no longer the fearsome pankration of old.
First off, wrestling and pankration were different sports even in ancient Greece. Second, the modern equivalent of pankration would be mixed martial arts (and there's a push to get MMA in the Olympics, in part so all the ancient contests would have modern representation.)
Perhaps we are awakening to the truth that these so-called sports are really just ritualized and institutionalized cycles of child abuse, a relentless spin cycle of brainwashing and indoctrination. They're cults, is what I'm saying. And they should be treated like the cults they are.
Ah, yet another argument for dismissing the agency of athletes. Really illustrates the weakness of the argument.
posted by NoxAeternum at 4:07 PM on May 6, 2022 [2 favorites]
First off, wrestling and pankration were different sports even in ancient Greece. Second, the modern equivalent of pankration would be mixed martial arts (and there's a push to get MMA in the Olympics, in part so all the ancient contests would have modern representation.)
Perhaps we are awakening to the truth that these so-called sports are really just ritualized and institutionalized cycles of child abuse, a relentless spin cycle of brainwashing and indoctrination. They're cults, is what I'm saying. And they should be treated like the cults they are.
Ah, yet another argument for dismissing the agency of athletes. Really illustrates the weakness of the argument.
posted by NoxAeternum at 4:07 PM on May 6, 2022 [2 favorites]
Seconding y2karl. I wasn't engaging in whataboutism, Dressed to Kill; I was actually presenting support for your position by means of raising historical precedents and antecedents.
Nox Aeternum: I think your position is strong with regards to adult athletes. But there's a tremendous about of social pressure, toxicity, peer pressure that is used to coerce young minds into physically abusive sports.
Due to injuries sustained in football, I've had chronic back pain my entire adult life. I can't bend one of my fingers. And it's hard to gauge the amount of CTE. All of those things, the coach didn't ever call the medics. I was told to walk off permanent, chronic injuries.
No one had the courage or the compassion to defend me. To suggest it would be alright to not play football, even though I hated it.
Football, gymnastics- it's one thing if these were practices that were voluntarily adapted. But they are being imposed. And they destroy human lives. And they have a relentless later cost in physical and psychic trauma.
I don't care for the agency of athletes to be a pretext for the immisseration and traumatization of thousands of children.
posted by LeRoienJaune at 4:14 PM on May 6, 2022 [8 favorites]
Nox Aeternum: I think your position is strong with regards to adult athletes. But there's a tremendous about of social pressure, toxicity, peer pressure that is used to coerce young minds into physically abusive sports.
Due to injuries sustained in football, I've had chronic back pain my entire adult life. I can't bend one of my fingers. And it's hard to gauge the amount of CTE. All of those things, the coach didn't ever call the medics. I was told to walk off permanent, chronic injuries.
No one had the courage or the compassion to defend me. To suggest it would be alright to not play football, even though I hated it.
Football, gymnastics- it's one thing if these were practices that were voluntarily adapted. But they are being imposed. And they destroy human lives. And they have a relentless later cost in physical and psychic trauma.
I don't care for the agency of athletes to be a pretext for the immisseration and traumatization of thousands of children.
posted by LeRoienJaune at 4:14 PM on May 6, 2022 [8 favorites]
Some gyms are safe spaces, some are full of predators. Same goes for churches.
You forgot to add Same goes for families. More there than anywhere else.
posted by y2karl at 4:16 PM on May 6, 2022 [2 favorites]
You forgot to add Same goes for families. More there than anywhere else.
posted by y2karl at 4:16 PM on May 6, 2022 [2 favorites]
Mod note: alrighty folks, let’s pause on the back and forth that seems to keep happening. Dressed to Kill, please take a break from this thread.
posted by travelingthyme (staff) at 4:34 PM on May 6, 2022 [6 favorites]
posted by travelingthyme (staff) at 4:34 PM on May 6, 2022 [6 favorites]
First off, all of these horrible coaches and trainers need to be found and removed from the sport- full stop. And I applaud the strength of the athletes who are willing to step up and name names. I think this is another step to start showing the smaller coaches and parents to cut that $hit out because they won't be able to go farther up the national chain, even if their athletes perform at an elite level despite their abusive training tactics. But it's going to take a while for the rot to be pruned.
But, as someone who recently has a child who otherwise has no interest in sports become excited about attending the community gymnastics gym, and has now gotten up at 6:30 am multiple times to get them into a class with their friends, clearly there is something about the sport that attracts people (and a lot of people in my community!). And this is at a parks and rec gym, where the kids are learning the basics to progress in the sport if they choose. Little Purr has gained skills and upper body strength just in a few months of the once a week training classes, and is really enjoying flipping around on the bars and bouncing on the training trampoline. Because at elementary school age, who doesn't enjoy flipping on bars and bouncing on trampolines? Now, based on the "elite" metrics, they're probably "too old" to be starting in the Beginning Gymnastics class, but this gym also has the same course for older and younger kids, so it could be starting to train the next elite athlete. The intro instructors are all young women, and are putting the emphasis in age-appropriate basics, exercises and lots of encouragement. As parents, we are all about learning how to move your body at all ages, so if Little Purr loses interest or wants to do something else, we will support them.
The gym time also hosts the high school-aged team practice at the same time, and while the young women do have some braces and indicators of past injury (I have no idea if they are preventative or not), they seem like they are having a good time tumbling and practicing their routines. There is clapping, support, and as far as I could see/hear, no coaches shouting abuse at them. Will these girls ever be "elite"? Probably not, but it seems like some of the seniors are going off to college, potentially to continue their sport. They are also well muscled, and have much more upper body strength than I do. I hope that their time as an athlete has been non-abusive. I am also in awe with how they move their bodies to tumble and spring. It is something I am totally not able to do, and they make it look so effortless. Who wouldn't want to have the ability to bounce around like a superhero?
No sport is without injuries. I blew both knees playing (non elite) soccer in high school, and still decided to come back to play senior year. In college, I know someone who got a collapsed lung when an epee broke and went through his padding and plastron (he still fences). I also know someone who fell and broke their back (thankfully not paralyzed) from training for high-end gymnastics. This was partially why we were so leery on letting Little Purr start gymnastics, and are purposefully letting them go slow through the classes (e.g., we had them repeat the first level, even though they could have progressed). But the agency and choice of these athletes have are paramount. I would support changing the sport's rules so that it emphases the strength in older bodies so that the elite athletes would have the ability to object to abuse and stand up for themselves. I think it would be amazing if Simone Biles and these athletes coming forward could own the leadership of the national organization, just like the US Women's Soccer suing for equal pay.
Also, it seems like the only time gymnastics is in the news is either due to a scandal or Olympics. I'm sure that colors people's opinions of the sport. Other (male) sports have more info on the day to day highs and lows, so the bad stuff doesn't seem to be an indictment of the entire institution.
In conclusion gymnastics and sports is a land of contrasts.
posted by Hermeowne Grangepurr at 4:46 PM on May 6, 2022 [18 favorites]
But, as someone who recently has a child who otherwise has no interest in sports become excited about attending the community gymnastics gym, and has now gotten up at 6:30 am multiple times to get them into a class with their friends, clearly there is something about the sport that attracts people (and a lot of people in my community!). And this is at a parks and rec gym, where the kids are learning the basics to progress in the sport if they choose. Little Purr has gained skills and upper body strength just in a few months of the once a week training classes, and is really enjoying flipping around on the bars and bouncing on the training trampoline. Because at elementary school age, who doesn't enjoy flipping on bars and bouncing on trampolines? Now, based on the "elite" metrics, they're probably "too old" to be starting in the Beginning Gymnastics class, but this gym also has the same course for older and younger kids, so it could be starting to train the next elite athlete. The intro instructors are all young women, and are putting the emphasis in age-appropriate basics, exercises and lots of encouragement. As parents, we are all about learning how to move your body at all ages, so if Little Purr loses interest or wants to do something else, we will support them.
The gym time also hosts the high school-aged team practice at the same time, and while the young women do have some braces and indicators of past injury (I have no idea if they are preventative or not), they seem like they are having a good time tumbling and practicing their routines. There is clapping, support, and as far as I could see/hear, no coaches shouting abuse at them. Will these girls ever be "elite"? Probably not, but it seems like some of the seniors are going off to college, potentially to continue their sport. They are also well muscled, and have much more upper body strength than I do. I hope that their time as an athlete has been non-abusive. I am also in awe with how they move their bodies to tumble and spring. It is something I am totally not able to do, and they make it look so effortless. Who wouldn't want to have the ability to bounce around like a superhero?
No sport is without injuries. I blew both knees playing (non elite) soccer in high school, and still decided to come back to play senior year. In college, I know someone who got a collapsed lung when an epee broke and went through his padding and plastron (he still fences). I also know someone who fell and broke their back (thankfully not paralyzed) from training for high-end gymnastics. This was partially why we were so leery on letting Little Purr start gymnastics, and are purposefully letting them go slow through the classes (e.g., we had them repeat the first level, even though they could have progressed). But the agency and choice of these athletes have are paramount. I would support changing the sport's rules so that it emphases the strength in older bodies so that the elite athletes would have the ability to object to abuse and stand up for themselves. I think it would be amazing if Simone Biles and these athletes coming forward could own the leadership of the national organization, just like the US Women's Soccer suing for equal pay.
Also, it seems like the only time gymnastics is in the news is either due to a scandal or Olympics. I'm sure that colors people's opinions of the sport. Other (male) sports have more info on the day to day highs and lows, so the bad stuff doesn't seem to be an indictment of the entire institution.
In conclusion gymnastics and sports is a land of contrasts.
posted by Hermeowne Grangepurr at 4:46 PM on May 6, 2022 [18 favorites]
Another quote from the article:
"Vanessa went on to make a Division I gymnastics team, and she’s proud of her gymnastics career. She believes that was only possible because she finished her level 10 career away from Midwest, at a gym where her development was encouraged and her health mattered. Once it stopped being about her medal potential and started being about her as a person, she became a stronger athlete.
It was on her college diving team, Sarah said, that she flourished as an athlete and learned that the tactics used by Graba and Lim and other coaches throughout the gymnastics world, “are absolutely not necessary and are actually counterproductive for elite athletes.”"
So frankly, when not following "elite" abuse training, this girl was successful.
posted by jenfullmoon at 6:15 PM on May 6, 2022 [11 favorites]
"Vanessa went on to make a Division I gymnastics team, and she’s proud of her gymnastics career. She believes that was only possible because she finished her level 10 career away from Midwest, at a gym where her development was encouraged and her health mattered. Once it stopped being about her medal potential and started being about her as a person, she became a stronger athlete.
It was on her college diving team, Sarah said, that she flourished as an athlete and learned that the tactics used by Graba and Lim and other coaches throughout the gymnastics world, “are absolutely not necessary and are actually counterproductive for elite athletes.”"
So frankly, when not following "elite" abuse training, this girl was successful.
posted by jenfullmoon at 6:15 PM on May 6, 2022 [11 favorites]
I’ll never understand why parents would allow their own children to knowingly be hurt (“Your children will be injured”).
Kids can’t even enter into contracts, and yet at 10 they are expected to accurately gauge the degree of damage that might happen, and how that could affect their future?
I know sports are popular, I just don’t think it’s necessary to be amused at the expense of children.
posted by I will not be Heiled at 6:46 PM on May 6, 2022 [5 favorites]
Kids can’t even enter into contracts, and yet at 10 they are expected to accurately gauge the degree of damage that might happen, and how that could affect their future?
I know sports are popular, I just don’t think it’s necessary to be amused at the expense of children.
posted by I will not be Heiled at 6:46 PM on May 6, 2022 [5 favorites]
I’ll never understand why parents would allow their own children to knowingly be hurt (“Your children will be injured”).
Because life is a contact sport, and you can't shelter kids forever (nor is it healthy to do so.) That said, the way those coaches framed risk was incredibly fucked up. In places that have an actually healthy framework, the discussion is instead "we believe in safety, and take every precaution and measure to keep you safe. That said, there is still risk in this sport which we cannot eliminate."
posted by NoxAeternum at 7:01 PM on May 6, 2022 [8 favorites]
Because life is a contact sport, and you can't shelter kids forever (nor is it healthy to do so.) That said, the way those coaches framed risk was incredibly fucked up. In places that have an actually healthy framework, the discussion is instead "we believe in safety, and take every precaution and measure to keep you safe. That said, there is still risk in this sport which we cannot eliminate."
posted by NoxAeternum at 7:01 PM on May 6, 2022 [8 favorites]
Because life is a contact sport, and you can't shelter kids forever
But this isn’t ‘life’, like a random event that just happens. This is a decision in jeopardize a young person (10 years old!). I think that child could definitely stand to be protected.
I don’t think children, who are not free moral agents, should be tossed into a meat grinder for amusement, but others disagree.
posted by I will not be Heiled at 7:20 PM on May 6, 2022 [6 favorites]
But this isn’t ‘life’, like a random event that just happens. This is a decision in jeopardize a young person (10 years old!). I think that child could definitely stand to be protected.
I don’t think children, who are not free moral agents, should be tossed into a meat grinder for amusement, but others disagree.
posted by I will not be Heiled at 7:20 PM on May 6, 2022 [6 favorites]
That said, the way those coaches framed risk was incredibly fucked up.
"100 percent of your children will be injured." isn't risk, it's negligence bordering on sadism, and I'm not really sure which side of the border it is.
posted by Etrigan at 7:29 PM on May 6, 2022 [7 favorites]
"100 percent of your children will be injured." isn't risk, it's negligence bordering on sadism, and I'm not really sure which side of the border it is.
posted by Etrigan at 7:29 PM on May 6, 2022 [7 favorites]
Seconding y2karl. I wasn't engaging in whataboutism, Dressed to Kill; I was actually presenting support for your position by means of raising historical precedents and antecedents.
In giving examples of brutal historical antecedents of modern sports, though, I think you are also very effectively making the point that “should we ban gymnastics?” is perhaps not the question to be asking so much as “what should we change about gymnastics?”
posted by atoxyl at 9:58 PM on May 6, 2022 [4 favorites]
In giving examples of brutal historical antecedents of modern sports, though, I think you are also very effectively making the point that “should we ban gymnastics?” is perhaps not the question to be asking so much as “what should we change about gymnastics?”
posted by atoxyl at 9:58 PM on May 6, 2022 [4 favorites]
"[L]ife is a contact sport"
breaks down to
"Life is a sport"
and ... No.
I'm not interested in banning sports, nor competition, but, respectfully, that's just a whack argument for anything.
posted by riverlife at 10:08 PM on May 6, 2022 [8 favorites]
breaks down to
"Life is a sport"
and ... No.
I'm not interested in banning sports, nor competition, but, respectfully, that's just a whack argument for anything.
posted by riverlife at 10:08 PM on May 6, 2022 [8 favorites]
Because life is a contact sport, and you can't shelter kids forever
Listen, I love gymnastics, grew up in a family with gymnasts, even participated some myself but it is a high injury sport and we’re not talking about cuts and scrapes. The injuries that can happen during gymnastics can be both life altering and career ending. Coming from someone who participated, and who’s sibling got a career ending injury, it’s not weird to question why parents would let their kids participate after getting told their kids would 100% get hurt.
posted by Pretty Good Talker at 10:42 PM on May 6, 2022 [9 favorites]
Listen, I love gymnastics, grew up in a family with gymnasts, even participated some myself but it is a high injury sport and we’re not talking about cuts and scrapes. The injuries that can happen during gymnastics can be both life altering and career ending. Coming from someone who participated, and who’s sibling got a career ending injury, it’s not weird to question why parents would let their kids participate after getting told their kids would 100% get hurt.
posted by Pretty Good Talker at 10:42 PM on May 6, 2022 [9 favorites]
What other sports pose questions like, "Is age ten too old to start?"
Fencing. My kid started around ten. That was enough to make my kid nationally competitive and recruited for college later on, and to become thoroughly done with the sport after college.
There are abusive coaches in fencing, too, and there are occasional injuries (I've had a couple myself). But for most fencers who are children, the sport is a friendly refuge and a needed outlet outside of school and family, and the environment helps kids grow up away from the peer-group self-reinforcing age-brigade of school. Kids dream of doing something significant and of being someone, and sports let both the over-protected child and the under-protected child have a safe place to do those things and many others. The problem is when the adults in the room start letting their own needs (for success, for admiration, for money, for power, for sexual gratification) guide their work.
I'm not a big fan of anything that expects intense body modification for young people, including wrestling, and I really don't care for sports in which the adults are too invested in the performance of young people.
posted by Peach at 5:10 AM on May 7, 2022 [8 favorites]
Fencing. My kid started around ten. That was enough to make my kid nationally competitive and recruited for college later on, and to become thoroughly done with the sport after college.
There are abusive coaches in fencing, too, and there are occasional injuries (I've had a couple myself). But for most fencers who are children, the sport is a friendly refuge and a needed outlet outside of school and family, and the environment helps kids grow up away from the peer-group self-reinforcing age-brigade of school. Kids dream of doing something significant and of being someone, and sports let both the over-protected child and the under-protected child have a safe place to do those things and many others. The problem is when the adults in the room start letting their own needs (for success, for admiration, for money, for power, for sexual gratification) guide their work.
I'm not a big fan of anything that expects intense body modification for young people, including wrestling, and I really don't care for sports in which the adults are too invested in the performance of young people.
posted by Peach at 5:10 AM on May 7, 2022 [8 favorites]
One of my fencing teachers has many times said that his fencing maestro said you had to start at age seven to be in the Olympics. This teacher is in his 70s, clearly still feels bad that his maestro sort of condemned him to failure because he started "late," and I was so tired of hearing this that I looked up the then-current members of the US Olympic fencing team, and not one of them had started before age 11, with several starting at 14. (I started at 50, but I fence purely for fun.).
As far as injuries go, there are injuries and then there are injuries. I've gotten some really bad bruises fencing, and I've had pain that lasted more than a few days after getting hit hard by someone with bad technique, but there's only been one serious injury (a broken leg) in the two clubs I'm involved in over the forty years they've existed, and that involved HEMA-style grappling and one person falling on another. The most potentially dangerous thing in fencing is a broken blade because those are sharp, but if someone breaks a blade, the whole room goes silent while everyone figures out whose it was (it's a very distinctive sound). I think there were something like eight deaths from fencing in the 20th century, and those involved very high-level, extremely fast fencing, usually broken blades, and freak accident elements.
So if everyone is taking part in a sport is injured, do you mean everyone gets bruises or everyone ends up in the hospital? Some parents have a low tolerance for their kids experiencing any kind of pain, and some kind of risk is inherent to every sport. There are clearly a lot of people who really care about both gymnastics and the health of children trying to figure out how to make gymnastics a safer sport. Those are the people I want to listen to.
posted by FencingGal at 5:34 AM on May 7, 2022 [5 favorites]
As far as injuries go, there are injuries and then there are injuries. I've gotten some really bad bruises fencing, and I've had pain that lasted more than a few days after getting hit hard by someone with bad technique, but there's only been one serious injury (a broken leg) in the two clubs I'm involved in over the forty years they've existed, and that involved HEMA-style grappling and one person falling on another. The most potentially dangerous thing in fencing is a broken blade because those are sharp, but if someone breaks a blade, the whole room goes silent while everyone figures out whose it was (it's a very distinctive sound). I think there were something like eight deaths from fencing in the 20th century, and those involved very high-level, extremely fast fencing, usually broken blades, and freak accident elements.
So if everyone is taking part in a sport is injured, do you mean everyone gets bruises or everyone ends up in the hospital? Some parents have a low tolerance for their kids experiencing any kind of pain, and some kind of risk is inherent to every sport. There are clearly a lot of people who really care about both gymnastics and the health of children trying to figure out how to make gymnastics a safer sport. Those are the people I want to listen to.
posted by FencingGal at 5:34 AM on May 7, 2022 [5 favorites]
FencingGal, good points. I'll caveat that I was answering the question of how common the question "when is too old to start" is asked, which is generally answered on Reddit and FB, even by the most opinionated know-it-alls, by "never," and "go for it." :) But from personal experience, I've run into quite a few of our Olympians when they were twelve and already recognizably proficient, including off the top of my head Mariel Zagunis, Daryl Homer, and Dagmara Wozniak. (I briefly reffed national youth events).
I will add the datum that I talked to Peter Harmer when he was chair of the medical commission, and there were literally hundreds of injuries from intact sabre points going through gloves before they changed the rules for sabre glove homologation. I had that injury myself, from an intact blade and a low-impact exchange, and it went through my palm and into my wrist. Blood everywhere.
I would say that injuries in young fencers are quite remarkably low, and would speculate that they are less common than injuries from sharp sticks in the back yard (though that kind of "fencer" usually engages in Star Wars stage-fencing where you just whack the blades together).
posted by Peach at 5:57 AM on May 7, 2022 [1 favorite]
I will add the datum that I talked to Peter Harmer when he was chair of the medical commission, and there were literally hundreds of injuries from intact sabre points going through gloves before they changed the rules for sabre glove homologation. I had that injury myself, from an intact blade and a low-impact exchange, and it went through my palm and into my wrist. Blood everywhere.
I would say that injuries in young fencers are quite remarkably low, and would speculate that they are less common than injuries from sharp sticks in the back yard (though that kind of "fencer" usually engages in Star Wars stage-fencing where you just whack the blades together).
posted by Peach at 5:57 AM on May 7, 2022 [1 favorite]
Peach, I wasn't thinking of my post as doubting you, just trying to add a few more thoughts. I was thinking Daryl Homer was one person I would have looked up (this was after reading Tim Morehouse's book). His Wikipedia page says he started at 11. (How cool that you reffed youth events - I wonder if I can do that as I get older - I've been thinking about how to stay involved as my health declines). I can see where some fencers would start younger - maybe it doesn't happen as much more because fencing just isn't popular in the same way gymnastics is? I think more people watch gymnastics and think it's beautiful, but watch fencing and are confused by scoring because it's so fast, though we do get new fencers after the Olympics.
I was unaware of the saber glove injuries - though I knew that I had to buy a new glove because of the rule change - so thanks for bringing that up. It does seem like there are continued efforts for make fencing safer.
As far as the more general discussion goes, I think that parents who are thinking Olympics for any sport drive that sport so that kids start at younger and younger ages, and of course there are coaches who want that too. When I was a child obsessed with the book "Suzy and the Ballet Family," there was a huge thing in that book (or maybe a different one in the series?) about the "bad" teacher and parents who wanted to start kids on toe shoes when they were too young, so this issue goes back at least to the 60s. It's not just sports either. Music comes immediately to mind - and that can lead to injuries too (and abuse - we just had a local violin professor sentenced to five years in jail for transporting a student across state lines to have sex with her - there were many other victims, but that seems to be the only charge right now - as a violin teacher, he was alone with a lot of young girls and women).
posted by FencingGal at 6:30 AM on May 7, 2022 [1 favorite]
I was unaware of the saber glove injuries - though I knew that I had to buy a new glove because of the rule change - so thanks for bringing that up. It does seem like there are continued efforts for make fencing safer.
As far as the more general discussion goes, I think that parents who are thinking Olympics for any sport drive that sport so that kids start at younger and younger ages, and of course there are coaches who want that too. When I was a child obsessed with the book "Suzy and the Ballet Family," there was a huge thing in that book (or maybe a different one in the series?) about the "bad" teacher and parents who wanted to start kids on toe shoes when they were too young, so this issue goes back at least to the 60s. It's not just sports either. Music comes immediately to mind - and that can lead to injuries too (and abuse - we just had a local violin professor sentenced to five years in jail for transporting a student across state lines to have sex with her - there were many other victims, but that seems to be the only charge right now - as a violin teacher, he was alone with a lot of young girls and women).
posted by FencingGal at 6:30 AM on May 7, 2022 [1 favorite]
FencingGal, I didn't feel doubted, I'm just on a social media fast right now so I'm even more loquacious than usual. (It occurs to me that even Metafilter counts as social media, sort of, though it doesn't engage in the same kind of attention mining and surveillance capitalism as the others, so this better be my last comment of the day :)
I liked refereeing, but reffing youth events is a particular kind of hell. At the same event where I first saw Daryl Homer and one of the Spear boys, I also had a 9 year old whose parents let him compete with active flu, and another one who fell down screaming and crying every time he had a touch called against him. Lots of people take up reffing because they like being around fencing, and I only decided not to do it any more because it interfered with my competing.
posted by Peach at 10:30 AM on May 7, 2022 [1 favorite]
I liked refereeing, but reffing youth events is a particular kind of hell. At the same event where I first saw Daryl Homer and one of the Spear boys, I also had a 9 year old whose parents let him compete with active flu, and another one who fell down screaming and crying every time he had a touch called against him. Lots of people take up reffing because they like being around fencing, and I only decided not to do it any more because it interfered with my competing.
posted by Peach at 10:30 AM on May 7, 2022 [1 favorite]
So if I'm doing the maths correctly from this article:
1982: Along with his brother, Jess Graba (age 13) starts coaching other gymnasts.
1985: Graba (age 15) starts coaching a little girl called Alison Lee, then 4 years old.
1993: Graba graduates college.
1995: Graba (age 26) and his brother open a gym. Lim is 14.
2003: The brother leaves the gym because he got married, and Lim (age 20) takes on more responsibility.
2003-2006: The events in this article happened. According to the article at least, Lim (now between the ages of 20 and 23) is the main perpetrator of the abuse.
2009: Lim and Graba get married. He is now 40 and she is 26. He has known her, primarily as her coach, since she was four.
This is giving me veeeery strong cult vibes, or at the very least, some majorly effed up grooming.
Ick ick ick.
posted by EllaEm at 11:49 AM on May 7, 2022 [8 favorites]
1982: Along with his brother, Jess Graba (age 13) starts coaching other gymnasts.
1985: Graba (age 15) starts coaching a little girl called Alison Lee, then 4 years old.
1993: Graba graduates college.
1995: Graba (age 26) and his brother open a gym. Lim is 14.
2003: The brother leaves the gym because he got married, and Lim (age 20) takes on more responsibility.
2003-2006: The events in this article happened. According to the article at least, Lim (now between the ages of 20 and 23) is the main perpetrator of the abuse.
2009: Lim and Graba get married. He is now 40 and she is 26. He has known her, primarily as her coach, since she was four.
This is giving me veeeery strong cult vibes, or at the very least, some majorly effed up grooming.
Ick ick ick.
posted by EllaEm at 11:49 AM on May 7, 2022 [8 favorites]
To add to the 'how many injuries is normal' conversation, I was a competitive runner growing up, and over the years, everyone I knew had at least one running injury, primarily of course overuse injuries, but also sprained ankles and broken arms from falls (cross country can be a rough sport). The category of overuse injury ranges from something minor but annoying like shin splints to stress fractures. Although our coaches had some ideas that look not great by modern standards, I do not feel they were ever abusive, and they were definitely not sexually inappropriate. Running is just hard on the body.
(Height of irony--I know now that I most like personally never had a true overuse injury. The bouts of "tendinitis" I was diagnosed with were most likely all actually enthesitis from my auto-inflammatory disorder. When a tendon hurts like hell and the patient is a runner, there's no reason to think that the inflammation is from internal processes rather than overuse.)
posted by hydropsyche at 12:24 PM on May 7, 2022 [2 favorites]
(Height of irony--I know now that I most like personally never had a true overuse injury. The bouts of "tendinitis" I was diagnosed with were most likely all actually enthesitis from my auto-inflammatory disorder. When a tendon hurts like hell and the patient is a runner, there's no reason to think that the inflammation is from internal processes rather than overuse.)
posted by hydropsyche at 12:24 PM on May 7, 2022 [2 favorites]
And that was the one part of the article that I did have a problem with - trying to tie a teen Midwest gymnast being killed while road running to the abuses at the gym. Because the reality is that road running is a good way to do aerobic conditioning and having teenagers run road circuits is not uncommon in a wide range of sports. Furthermore, a large part of why road running is so dangerous in the US has to do with the abysmal state of pedestrian infrastructure as well as the mentality of drivers on the road.
Now, the use of conditioning as punishment is abusive, counterproductive, and sadly common in sport - but road running as conditioning is neither of the former two, and trying to work it in weakens the piece's argument.
posted by NoxAeternum at 11:36 AM on May 8, 2022 [1 favorite]
Now, the use of conditioning as punishment is abusive, counterproductive, and sadly common in sport - but road running as conditioning is neither of the former two, and trying to work it in weakens the piece's argument.
posted by NoxAeternum at 11:36 AM on May 8, 2022 [1 favorite]
but road running as conditioning is neither of the former two, and trying to work it in weakens the piece's argument.
It's a SafeSport violation. Does that help?
posted by fluttering hellfire at 1:13 PM on May 8, 2022
It's a SafeSport violation. Does that help?
posted by fluttering hellfire at 1:13 PM on May 8, 2022
It's a SafeSport violation. Does that help?
No - that's actually an illustration of why SafeSport is considered a flaming dumpster fire, given how uninterested they are in regards to physical, emotional, and sexual abuse.
posted by NoxAeternum at 2:12 PM on May 8, 2022
No - that's actually an illustration of why SafeSport is considered a flaming dumpster fire, given how uninterested they are in regards to physical, emotional, and sexual abuse.
posted by NoxAeternum at 2:12 PM on May 8, 2022
On a tangent, now a potential Cadillac Ranch style landscape artwork of epic proportion comes to mind:
The Plain of Flaming Dumpsters.
posted by y2karl at 3:35 PM on May 8, 2022
The Plain of Flaming Dumpsters.
posted by y2karl at 3:35 PM on May 8, 2022
But your repeated references to 'lithe young bodies' seem to suggest that you see the sexualization of women and girls to be the primary driver of the sport,
to me it suggests, rather, that I can pinpoint the age of the person making the characterization of the sport to within 5 years of my own.
don't want to defend any indefensible and thoroughly alogical comments, but there was a good ten years where I had to turn away from the screen during all the portions of floor exercise that weren't the actual tumbling passes, because every single one of them had a) many many pelvic thrusts passed off as "dance" (they still do this and the more perfunctory it gets the weirder it is), obligatorily & grotesquely performed by minors who barely had pelvises, coupled with b) a signature move involving lying on the mat w/fist-drumming & feet-kicking to simulate a toddler tantrum. in the same routine. moceanu et al. but it wasn't one gymnast, there were a couple of olympicses where they all did it. it was really foul.
but
my perspective on the sport, which I wanted so badly to like & was so repelled by, was massively realigned when I learned that this obscene carnival was basically the product of a very specific school of coaching & once the karolyi-affiliated people stopped dominating absolutely everything, a lot of it just went away.
and none of that stuff was ever gymnastics! you don't get points for it, so far as I know. it was just ritualized degradation.
it isn't the nineties anymore, and objections to the very existence of women's gymnastics that are based on nightmare-memories of nineties & earlier little girls' gymnastics are not useful or interesting additions to serious discussion of abuse in what is, in fact, a real sport.
posted by queenofbithynia at 12:05 AM on May 9, 2022 [5 favorites]
to me it suggests, rather, that I can pinpoint the age of the person making the characterization of the sport to within 5 years of my own.
don't want to defend any indefensible and thoroughly alogical comments, but there was a good ten years where I had to turn away from the screen during all the portions of floor exercise that weren't the actual tumbling passes, because every single one of them had a) many many pelvic thrusts passed off as "dance" (they still do this and the more perfunctory it gets the weirder it is), obligatorily & grotesquely performed by minors who barely had pelvises, coupled with b) a signature move involving lying on the mat w/fist-drumming & feet-kicking to simulate a toddler tantrum. in the same routine. moceanu et al. but it wasn't one gymnast, there were a couple of olympicses where they all did it. it was really foul.
but
my perspective on the sport, which I wanted so badly to like & was so repelled by, was massively realigned when I learned that this obscene carnival was basically the product of a very specific school of coaching & once the karolyi-affiliated people stopped dominating absolutely everything, a lot of it just went away.
and none of that stuff was ever gymnastics! you don't get points for it, so far as I know. it was just ritualized degradation.
it isn't the nineties anymore, and objections to the very existence of women's gymnastics that are based on nightmare-memories of nineties & earlier little girls' gymnastics are not useful or interesting additions to serious discussion of abuse in what is, in fact, a real sport.
posted by queenofbithynia at 12:05 AM on May 9, 2022 [5 favorites]
« Older I'd say that even if he weren't my liege lord just... | How the age-appropriate debate is altering... Newer »
This thread has been archived and is closed to new comments
I quit way before any kind of competitive viability, but the same belittling, lack of support, disinterest in our health, and fetishization of our pain was present at the gym I went to as a kid.
Our training for back handsprings was being told to do one and getting laughed at or scolded for not trying hard enough or not listening to instructions.
I watched my coach get frustrated at another gymnast's vault blocking and shove him off the vault mid-handstand. I can't honestly remember if he actually broke anything, but he hurt his arm so badly that he had to leave early. Our coach said he "fell." He didn't come back while I was still training there.
I panicked in the middle of a giant (which I had barely been coached on) on high bar and collapsed, landing with my full weight on my pelvis and it HURT. My coach laughed at me and egged the other gymnasts on while making fun of how much it must have hurt my "little eggs and sausage." No, you caveman, I landed on bone, not my genitals. I was maybe 13?
Anyway, I noped out of that soon after, but it definitely didn't help me feel safe in athletic environments, and I never really did any sports after that. I never had dreams of competing, but the idea that little kids with ambition and goals and trust get ground up in the pathology of grown adults for sport is just sickening.
posted by wakannai at 9:28 AM on May 6, 2022 [29 favorites]