"it makes me stand out; makes me look obviously new"
May 16, 2022 10:42 AM   Subscribe

A few memories and reflections on buying bagels in New York City and Döner in Berlin, language, tourists and immigrants, and expectations. "When you move to a country, you have this list of things in your head that you know will make your life easier. If I can just get my Anmeldung, if I can just learn the language, if I can just get my Unbegrenzte Aufenthaltserlaubnis, then everything will be ok. Then, I will be secure. Then, I will truly be able to call this place home. Could you imagine, years later, slowly realising that your efforts to integrate have suddenly depreciated?"
posted by brainwane (56 comments total) 11 users marked this as a favorite
 
I did a year abroad in college and ended up in Germany (which is itself a story), and had the distinct combination of fortune and misfortune that was traveling to Munich the weekend Oktoberfest started. Literally every restaurant and beer hall mentioned in every English language guidebook was jam packed, mostly with American tourists, with hour long waits; every restaurant near those places was also jam packed with tourist overflow. I heard one hostess telling a group of tourists, in English, "we still have beer, but we're out of food, and it will be at least an hour before you can get in." As I got increasingly hungry simply trying to find anywhere to get any sort of food at all, I overheard a group of German punks my age as one of them said he was hungry and they all agreed to go get some food. I figured I'd follow them to whichever Döner place was favored by local punks, saving me the trouble of assessing quality from outside. And then they went to McDonald's.

On the plus side, the McDonald's had a really short line, but I never did find out where Münchner went for Döner. The punks ordered beer; I didn't.
posted by fedward at 11:05 AM on May 16, 2022 [3 favorites]


So, Bagels. What kinds are there?

Every bagel store that I have gone to have their bagels in bins that you can easily see, with labels on them. Most have lists of what kinds they make. I don't see what the confusion is.
posted by Splunge at 11:13 AM on May 16, 2022 [6 favorites]


On assimilation: my year abroad was in Heidelberg, which had a huge American presence because the US Army's European Headquarters was there. Between the base and the ruined castle there was a huge tourist influx in the summer. I arrived in July and no matter how good my German was, people in every store on the Hauptstraße responded to me in English — until tourist season ended. Come September everything was in German. The guys working at the Döner / pizza place on the Hauptstraße were fluent in German and English, but I assume that's because they had so many American tourists and servicemen coming through every day that being fluent in English was good for profits.
posted by fedward at 11:22 AM on May 16, 2022 [1 favorite]


It's a good observation but I always wonder why if you're running a food service stall where you know there's going to be a language barrier you don't eliminate the language barrier with pictures & pointing. You don't need high quality photos you can do this with any paper & tape.

I was also confused about the bagel code, it's just a kind of bread, they're sitting out in bins, pick one that looks good & they'll put stuff on it for you. Whatever you want, there's no judgment.
posted by bleep at 11:42 AM on May 16, 2022 [2 favorites]


I was given a huge picture menu in a country where I was fluent in the local language and I thought it was both *hilarious and fantastic* and should be expanded to not just for foreign-looking tourists. When you're hungry you don't want to read a bunch of text, you just open the menu and point to whatever looks the most appetizing.

I later remember being slightly miffed when someone in my party ordered via Yelp pictures but now I realize that it's great.

Also see, Japan and their elaborate food models at the front of restaurants.
posted by meowzilla at 11:44 AM on May 16, 2022 [5 favorites]


For context, the picture menu was around 20 pages of inkjet-printed paper inside those nasty plastic page protectors, bound in a three ring binder like a second grade book report.

Also from my travels, I believe that many fast food joints have an entire picture menu covering the counter next to the register, so you can just point to what you want. The emergence of digital ordering might make this slightly better or worse.
posted by meowzilla at 12:14 PM on May 16, 2022


I might judge someone for bageling wrong
posted by supermedusa at 12:17 PM on May 16, 2022 [4 favorites]


Bagel code? It's NYC, order wtf you want. The only thing people might get shirty about is toasted/not toasted (which is surely a trap for the limited-English buyer, as "toasted" is not necessarily top of key vocab lists), but even that is only in specific places.
posted by praemunire at 12:26 PM on May 16, 2022


I went to a local chain bagel joint and asked for a toasted bagel. It was barely warmed.

Is, like, the Maillard reaction anathema to bagelers?

I will never go there again.
posted by JustSayNoDawg at 12:28 PM on May 16, 2022 [2 favorites]


A good bagel should already have a delightful interior texture. Toasting is for bagels that are really just round bread.
posted by praemunire at 12:32 PM on May 16, 2022 [9 favorites]


As a public service, I needed to look up Döner since I failed to click on the restaurant link. Oh, what is this wonderful exotic food? Will I ever get some?

It's a gyro, or possibly a kabob. There's plenty of that in Philadelphia, though I wouldn't be surprised if there are some differences between the German version and the American version.

Maybe I'll get some Döner sauces and try them on a bagel.
posted by Nancy Lebovitz at 12:33 PM on May 16, 2022


It's NYC, order wtf you want.

This feels like a trap. Like, eh, eat whatever kind of bagel/pizza/hoagie/Reuben/bbq you want. BUT, if it ever comes up in conversation, be prepared for proponents of their preferred regional variation of deep-dish, dry-rub, sweet sauced pastrami with giardiniera and lox on rye to explain passionately how scandalous it is.

You’ll not catch me out so easily! I’m wise to the ways of foodies!
posted by darkstar at 12:36 PM on May 16, 2022 [4 favorites]


Yeah, they're basically kabobs. Most notable for being sold from late-night trucks across Europe and the UK. Perfectly tasty.

Seems a little weird to get resentful on behalf of people who came to a foreign country not speaking the language towards other people coming to a foreign country not speaking the language, though.
posted by praemunire at 12:37 PM on May 16, 2022


BUT, if it ever comes up in conversation,

Conveniently, though, the guy trying to sell you the bagel does not give a shit and just wants to fill your order and move on to the next customer.
posted by praemunire at 12:38 PM on May 16, 2022 [4 favorites]


Yea truly, any foodies of any degree (even if it's just someone passionate about Pineapple on Pizza for instance) will only debate with you AFTER you've gotten whatever the hek you want and paid.
Also, despite being a mere mono-language person, I resonated with this VERY deeply as a trans woman walking inside a beauty store for the first time ever.
"oh please oh PLEASE just let me fit in for the five seconds it should take me to complete my purchase and please let there not be any follow up questions!"
posted by WeX Majors at 12:45 PM on May 16, 2022 [3 favorites]


Not so long ago, I got a shawarma for half price because the customer in front of me in the line had failed to order correctly. And a big smile from the shawarma man. I had planned to have falafels, but the shawarma is widely recognized as the best in town and it was very good. The other customer got whatever he wanted too, with a significant delay and no smiles.

It was the same issue as in the article, the shawarma man is an immigrant and has struggled to learn Danish as an adult, you can't also expect him to understand English. Also, it is not nearly as normal here as in the US to ask for modifications to your food. It's not that people don't have allergies, of course they do, I have allergies. But one doesn't expect to be able to go to a cheap shop and get special service. (So this is also a warning note for potential travelers).
posted by mumimor at 12:55 PM on May 16, 2022 [4 favorites]


> > You can't expect too much delight from a chain bagel place.
posted by swerve at 1:04 PM on May 16, 2022 [3 favorites]


I thankfully spent 18 months in the medieval town of Nurnberg Germany during the height of the Viet Nam conflict.
Evenings were mostly free and of course weekends, once your job was done. So we always headed to the center of downtown, near the castle, and all the bars. We knew which ones were off limits to us. Natch we headed there. We always stood out like sore thumbs, mainly because of the way we dressed...even in civilian clothes. I went so far as to shop in the German department stores for clothes. Didn't matter. Most of the younger Germans knew a smattering of English. The older folk, not so much. There was more than a bit of distrust coming from them. They had been around for the last war after all. Ah, I learned to enjoy German wines and beer, and brats on little hard rolls with mustard. And roasted chestnuts and hot pretzels from food carts. Good times.
posted by Czjewel at 1:05 PM on May 16, 2022 [5 favorites]


It's a gyro, or possibly a kabob.

Previously in rotato sandwiches:
Gyro, doner kebab and shawarma are all part of the glorious international family of spit roasted meat in a flatbread sandwich. They all mean the same thing, etymologically:

The Turkish word döner comes from dönmek ("to turn" or "to rotate")
Shawarma is an Arabic rendering of Turkish çevirme [tʃeviɾˈme] 'turning'
[Gyro] comes from the Greek γύρος (gyros, 'circle' or 'turn')
posted by zamboni at 1:18 PM on May 16, 2022 [12 favorites]


...bagels that are really just round bread

The crux of what New York considers bagels.
posted by Jessica Savitch's Coke Spoon at 1:19 PM on May 16, 2022


When I visited Germany many years ago, I went to a sandwich shop and placed my order in my best one-semester German. The clerk cheerfully responded in English.
posted by Faint of Butt at 1:24 PM on May 16, 2022


It's a gyro, or possibly a kabob.

When I was there mumblety years ago the signs all said “Döner Kabob” but the spoken term was invariably just Döner. And it’s similar to a gyro or shawarma in construction but the bread may be a different sort of flatbread and the sauces are different.
posted by fedward at 1:32 PM on May 16, 2022


We don't know who the donor is.
posted by kirkaracha at 1:34 PM on May 16, 2022


I always thought it was Donner, as in Donner and Blitzen; and with the umlaut (Döner), the plural form.

I went to a local chain bagel joint and asked for a toasted bagel. It was barely warmed

Ah, the debate between the people who just want warm bread, and those who actually want toast is another story. Those on opposing sides frequently torment the other by serving what they prefer.
posted by Rash at 1:50 PM on May 16, 2022


The Second Serving

Turning and turning, the widening gyro
Falco cannot hear Der Kommisar;
Things fall apart; the pita cannot hold;
Mere sandwiches are loosed upon the world,
The kräuter sauce is poured, and everywhere
The meatroll that is dinner is drowned;
The best lack all convection, while the würst
Are full of passable cevapcici.

Surely some bagels are at hand;
Surely the Second Serving is at hand.
The Second Serving! Hardly are those words out
When a vast image out of Yelp or a laminated menu
Troubles my sight: somewhere near the late night stands
A crate with lemon soda and the head of a beer,
A craze, blanc and sugar-free as diet Sommersby,
Is bubbling slow, while all about it
Reel shadows of intoxicated revellers.
The darkness drops again; but now I know
That twenty minutes of wretched waiting
Were vexed to embarrassment by a mocking local,
And what rough feast, its hour come round at last,
Sloshes towards Berlin to get bagels?
posted by chavenet at 2:15 PM on May 16, 2022 [29 favorites]


I found this a weird essay.
But, if you’re running a small business and can’t avoid English-speaking Berlin, could you imagine the loss of security that comes from watching the language of a city change underneath you? It violates some deep sense of fairness that one can move to a country and work to learn the language to a level of native-speech, and then, years later, can’t communicate with newcomers, who can get by without problems because the majority of the young people here speak the Lingua Franca. But that majority doesn’t include you, again; just like the day you arrived.
It's supposedly taking the perspective of socioeconomically-disadvantaged immigrants like the Turkish döner sellers (though it's apparently written by an Australian coder living in Berlin by choice, which is kind of a different experience) but ends up sounding like every "Speak English, it's America!"-type reactionary asshole ever. The city is 'changing underneath you'? It 'violates a sense of fairness'? I guarantee there are (probably literally millions of) Germans who feel exactly that way about how there are entire (small) areas of their cities where you hear Turkish on the streets. About the horror of possibly having to order from someone who doesn't understand every German word you say or speak in a familiar accent. About how their kids want to eat Turkish food and not good old-fashioned Bavarian fare or whatever. Maybe there are (primarily older, as the essay says) Turkish immigrants who feel unincluded by this whole English business. Maybe there are (primarily older) Turkish immigrants who feel like they have something in common with the (primarily older) Germans who don't know English well either. And maybe there are plenty of (even older) Turkish immigrants who deal with English like you deal with anything else in life. I wonder how much of this essay is based on conversations with Turkish immigrants, and how much is just projection.

I've heard so many otherwise left-wing Europeans talking about how they're being "replaced" by Muslims. A flood of Muslims is overtaking Europe. Europe is changing, it's not the same anymore, you can't recognize it anymore, you walk down the street and all you see is Arabs and Africans. I assume this is not where the author is coming from, and lord knows I know how hard it is to learn how to live and fit in in a new country. But any kind of "it's not fair that the population is changing! We're being left behind!" sets off alarm bells for me because eventually it ends up becoming that. The world changes, generations change, our environments change, and learning how to accept that and even see the good in it is one of the most important things there is.
posted by trig at 2:25 PM on May 16, 2022 [12 favorites]


I found it a weird essay too, but that may be partly because he buries the lede. In the footnotes he seems to be suggesting that it's an Ossi v Wessi thing:
English was compulsory in West-German high schools since 1955 and from the 5th grade since 1964. [..] Part of why Berlin is especially sensitive to the trend towards English now is that students in the DDR learned Russian from the 5th grade instead of English, with English being only an optional language that could be picked up later.
In other words: West Germans learned English as a second language, East Germans mostly didn't, so when East Germans hear English being spoken in Berlin, it reminds them of their cultural inferiority (or something). But how that relates to Turkish immigrants -- who he says were mostly educated under the West German system -- I don't fully understand. So, yes, weird essay, and frustrating to read because I feel like I'm missing the point he's trying to make.
posted by verstegan at 4:04 PM on May 16, 2022 [1 favorite]


TBH, it reads a bit like "I made the effort to fit in here, you're just coming in here speaking English, it's annoying, and let me work backwards to find an acceptable group to project that feeling onto," but, like. Tourists. Won't speak the languages of every country they go to. As long as they're not obnoxious about it, it's okay.

One of the more interesting linguistic experiences I had was listening to two random young (non-English) guys in a Vienna cafe, presumably visitors themselves, clearly using their limited English as a lingua franca with each other. So, two guys speaking different first languages, in a country whose language they didn't speak, speaking yet another language. Felt like being in a medieval university with a bunch of Europeans carrying on in Latin.
posted by praemunire at 4:15 PM on May 16, 2022 [4 favorites]


Gyro, doner kebab and shawarma are all part of the glorious international family of spit roasted meat in a flatbread sandwich. They all mean the same thing, etymologically

Then the Lebanese-Mexicans had to mess it all up with al pastor, i.e. shepherd style, which of course makes very little sense when the meat in question is pork. Though they at least call the actual device a spinning top.
posted by ssg at 5:58 PM on May 16, 2022 [1 favorite]


I was in Berlin a few years ago for the first time since the early 90’s and one of the things that really stood out to me was the amount of English spoken. I was at several smaller non-touristy places where many of the staff didn’t speak German. It was a little odd and I’ve been told a lot of it has to do with lots of international students who also work in the service industry. Meanwhile, in Vienna, many of the service industry people are German students who my Austrian friends gripe about because they won’t assimilate and learn proper Austrian.
posted by misterpatrick at 6:21 PM on May 16, 2022


I know the question was sort of rhetorical, and as a very self-conscious person who does not like to look out of place or bother strangers, especially while traveling, I feel weird saying this, but you know how New Yorkers will not shut up about New York? Imagine what happens when you ask us about bagels. I think most people in a bagel line would be not just patient but eager to tell you their every opinion on the subject. Like:

My default order is “sesame bagel toasted with cream cheese.” You can get that basically anywhere. I order other stuff a lot, but that is a safe go-to.

Most places will have: plain, sesame, poppy, cinnamon raisin, everything. Some places will have egg bagels, pumpernickel, or salt. A few places will have blueberry, whole wheat, or other exotic flavors, but those are non-traditional (some old heads reject the raisin and everything bagels as well).

You can get the bagel plain or toasted. “Toasted with cream-cheese” and “toasted with butter” are really common orders, but getting a bagel as-is (not toasted, no toppings) is a normal thing to do, too. There are sometimes flavors of cream cheese, most common being scallion. Some shops (e.g., Zabar’s, not bodegas) offer cream cheese, lox, tomato, onion, and capers, which is wonderful but expensive. It’s uncommon to get savory things on a cinnamon raisin bagel unless you’re Cynthia Nixon.

You can order a sandwich and ask to have it on a bagel (bacon, egg, and cheese on a bagel is not healthy but is a delicious breakfast), but the most common way to start a bagel order is, “a bagel with [fillings].” (N.B.: Some places make eggs all day but most stop around 11 a.m. so they can use the grill for the lunch rush.)

My childhood bagel place was Ess-A-Bagel, then on 1st and 21st. They made the bagels on site, which is uncommon, but that meant you could ask for a bagel that had just been baked and was super fresh and still warm. They got bought out at some point, moved, and are more touristy now (and pricey!) but they might still do that.

Finally, if you buy a dozen bagels as-is (like, to take home) most places will give you an additional bagel for free.

We have doner-type shops and food trucks, so I feel relatively confident about ordering doner successfully, but currywurst is a thing that I still don’t know how to order properly. I didn’t ask for help the one time I got it and I am pretty sure that I missed out as a result.
posted by evidenceofabsence at 7:56 PM on May 16, 2022 [4 favorites]


Hm. The East Coaster in me now wonders what everyone else calls a Kaiser Roll.
A bun, or bread roll. Soft on the inside, with a bit of a crust, sometimes with poppy seeds on top.
Excellent for the traditional fried egg and cheese breakfast sandwich; as well as the lighter 'coffee and a buttered roll' breakfast, eaten on the walk between your home and the subway entrance.
posted by bartleby at 8:58 PM on May 16, 2022 [2 favorites]


Also somewhat confusing the kebab discourse is the American 'shishkebob', which is a generic name for cut-up vegetables and little bits of meat, skewered and cooked over fire.
(Or really any multiple skewered items - when Leonidas puts one spear through three enemies at once, it's 'Ouch! The old Spartan Shishkebab'.)
posted by bartleby at 9:06 PM on May 16, 2022 [2 favorites]


Hm. The East Coaster in me now wonders what everyone else calls a Kaiser Roll.

Some folks call it a sling roll. Mmhm.
posted by darkstar at 9:43 PM on May 16, 2022 [4 favorites]


In Germany, these wonderful breakfast rolls are called Brötchen. Many kinds; one of which is Kaiserbrötchen.
posted by Rash at 9:55 PM on May 16, 2022 [3 favorites]


bacon, egg, and cheese on a bagel is not healthy

take it back take it back TAKE IT BACK
posted by praemunire at 10:20 PM on May 16, 2022 [3 favorites]


That would be kajzerki in Poland. Which apparently come from Vienna but aren't related to the actual Austrian Emperor - the baker who invented them in the 18th century just happened to be named Kayser.

Now if you really want a fight, ask about bagels in Kraków...
posted by I claim sanctuary at 12:18 AM on May 17, 2022 [2 favorites]


You want the best bagel? Come with me to Berkeley, CA in 1983, and have a fresh, warm salt bagel from Brothers Bagels on Gilman St. That is the bagel Plato was thinking of when he idealized the bagel. All others derive.
posted by chavenet at 12:53 AM on May 17, 2022 [2 favorites]


I lived around the block from the street mentioned in the article for the last 15 years, until last month. So I've walked through there probably a million times and have eaten at that Döner shop a few times. It's been a touristy-ish area for at least that long. The Döner shop at that location was a newcomer to the street, long after all the things that tourists come for appeared. In other words: the shop opened up because it was a good spot to sell Döner to hungry tourists looking for a quick inexpensive but delicious bite to eat.

Of course it doesn't mean that the Döner guy wasn't stressed or someone wasn't annoyed at English, so it's not an unfair observation or anything but I don't think Döner places are worried about more English being spoken. It's just what it is in Europe. Before, someone from Spain or Belgium would come and not know how to properly order a Döner in their language, and now they come and don't know how to properly order a Döner in English.
posted by UN at 1:11 AM on May 17, 2022 [3 favorites]


Back when I worked in Berkeley our company was bought by one in the UK, now a US 'sandwich' and a UK 'sandwich' are very different things .... when engineers would come over from the UK we'd go out to lunch to a local deli, and, on purpose, keep them occupied talking while we were queuing so they wouldn't pay attention to what was going on ahead of them at the counter .... leaving them suddenly having to answer questions like "what kind of bread?", "what kind of meat?", "dressing?" and "do you want everything on it?" (what even is 'everything'?)

It was a deliberate cultural hazing.

This was all stuff I learned as an immigrant to the US - I have learned to enjoy "everything but olives" - returning to NZ 20 years I discovered that ordering fish&chips had changed, now I was expected to know species of fish, and ones that no one was eating when I'd left - domain knowledge is everywhere
posted by mbo at 1:32 AM on May 17, 2022 [3 favorites]


1. For a good long while after we moved to Berlin (from Brooklyn) we could not find good bagels without traveling 40min to Mitte or Kreuzberg (to Barcomi's - a good bakery/cafe which 15years ago was the exception vis-a-vis bagels). Brötchen (or Schrippen or Toscana (I know -??) or well here's the wiki page) on the other hand are thick on the ground and as good, generally, as they are varied. Bialy's are not to be found (and of course none of these bagels are anywhere near as good as the bagels from Montreal - as everyone knows) which is a damn shame, nor knishes.
2. Döner comes in two kinds, my kids tell me, the good kind and the bad kind. The bad kind looks like Spam on a stick, the good kind like layers of meat, often with a tomato on the top of the whole thing, and sometimes with onions layered in there. Did you know that the roundel of meat, the Dönerspieß, can weigh as much as 120kg/260lbs?! I favour falafel/halumi (cheese)/and sometimes marinated eggplant. Recently one of the kids turned me on to "Sahara" by S-bahn Schoeneberg (there's an affiliate in Neukoeln) it's run by Sudanese and they have a peanut sauce that is revolutionary, sometimes you mix in a little mango-sauce too, and hot sauce. I countered this suggestion with this place on Wilmersdorferstraße, opposite Rogacki (now _that_ is an experience to savour), and they have a sauce with curry. Very nice. Also, of course, the best falafel is Dada falafel in Mitte - they should get a Michelin star.
3. I was surprised they didn't mention the curiosity of the 'Gemüse-Döner' which, despite its name ('Gemüse' is vegetable) is 100% not vegetarian, but rather chicken (instead of lamb). Go figure.
4. Shortly after we got here, and while my German was barely mediocre, I went to the 'local' Döner place to get a falafel at lunch. It wasn't considered 'good' by anyone but I just needed food and whatever. The guy who ran the place and cooked had a 'big' personality and always a couple people sitting around drinking tea, shooting the shit. I order with my shitty German, asking him to wrap it up 'zum mitnehmen' (to go) and he hands me the falafel without wrapper and I say again, could I please have that to go and he gives me shit about mumbling and speaking German poorly - this in German as heavily accented (though of different origin) as my own. I really took offence, I gotta say, I made a point of never going back. Whenever I saw him on the street, if I was with someone I would mention -"that guy there? He's a fucking asshole." There's a small, almost phone-booth sized place that opened up near the bus-stop and for a while it was really ok - not all the way to really good but absolutely not bad. Then there was some trouble among the 'Klan's' (which are basically organised criminal groups) and as part of the peace negotiations, the place changed hands. And is horrible now (stale oil in the fryers, wilted lettuce - bleugh)... and of course that fucking guy, who used to have that other place, shows up there now and then to catch a shift.
5. All the kids speak English these days - like that's the pig latin, the trend, the fad. The wait-staff in restaurants that aren't in the stodgy, locals-only areas, that are in Kreuzberg or Prenzlauer Berg or Mitte etc all speak English and sometimes only English - it's been a topic in the press and as chit-chat and a source of real tooth-gnashery. I always find it surprising, frankly, that the owners put up with it (because not all their customers _are_ English-fluent and unlike the US the official language, well there is one) and feel a little bad that the wait-staff can get so caught out by someone speaking German to them. That would suck, for them - to catch shit when they're just trying to get by and aren't expecting the high dudgeon (and holy shit is it high)...
posted by From Bklyn at 1:38 AM on May 17, 2022 [2 favorites]


I was surprised they didn't mention the curiosity of the 'Gemüse-Döner' which, despite its name ('Gemüse' is vegetable) is 100% not vegetarian, but rather chicken (instead of lamb). Go figure.

When I started my undergraduate degree many years ago I met a guy from Malaysia who was absolutely adamant that he was vegetarian - the fact that he was happily eating chicken was not evidence to the contrary as chickens were 'walking vegetables'
posted by koahiatamadl at 3:25 AM on May 17, 2022 [3 favorites]


> In Germany, these wonderful breakfast rolls are called Brötchen.

Not so fast...
posted by wachhundfisch at 4:45 AM on May 17, 2022 [3 favorites]


Since we have mostly ignored the article to talk about ourselves and food we had once, I’d take a pastrami bagel from one of those shops in shoreditch over most places in New York but only for meals between 22:00-5:00, otherwise literally any place in nyc that wil sell me an egg bagel with lox is the winner
posted by thedaniel at 5:07 AM on May 17, 2022 [1 favorite]


Not so fast...

Weird. Pretty sure the first rolls pictured there were either Brötchen or Semmerl in Heidelberg even though that page indicates a regional preference for Weck(er)le. Brötchen never felt likely to mean any specific thing, but Semmerl pretty much always meant the little oval with one slash down the middle.

Which apparently come from Vienna but aren't related to the actual Austrian Emperor - the baker who invented them in the 18th century just happened to be named Kayser.

I fell down a well researching this a few years ago, and rather than repeat myself I'll just link to my earlier comment on the subject of which Kaiser gave the rolls their name (there's a lot, but the summary is "not so much a specific Kaiser as a common practice at the time of naming the best whatever as the Kaiser whatever as a way to drum up business; the Kaiser at the time was Franz-Joseph I but I couldn't find any contemporary reports that corroborated that particular honor as having anything to do with him individually").
posted by fedward at 6:38 AM on May 17, 2022 [2 favorites]


My childhood bagel place was Ess-A-Bagel, then on 1st and 21st. They made the bagels on site, which is uncommon, but that meant you could ask for a bagel that had just been baked and was super fresh and still warm. They got bought out at some point, moved, and are more touristy now (and pricey!) but they might still do that.

When I used to have to travel to a company office on 3rd Ave in Manhattan, I'd stop at Ess-a-bagel on my way from the Lexington/53rd subway. In the morning rush they're not that touristy. They're impatient with you if you don't know what you want or if you change your mind mid-order, but that's maybe just New York. The real meanies were at Bagel Hole in Park Slope; they'd send you to the back of the line if you hesitated.
posted by fedward at 6:49 AM on May 17, 2022


You want the best bagel? Come with me to Berkeley, CA in 1983, and have a fresh, warm salt bagel from Brothers Bagels on Gilman St. That is the bagel Plato was thinking of when he idealized the bagel. All others derive.

Berkeley, CA? I’m not familiar with that neighborhood. Which borough is it in?
posted by star gentle uterus at 9:15 AM on May 17, 2022 [2 favorites]


When I think about it, "Döner Kebab" sounds like a familiar phrase, but this doesn't mean I attached any meaning to "Döner". I have no idea how a Döner Kebab is differect from a non-Döner kebab.

In Philadelphia, a Kaiser roll has a sort of a pinwheel pattern on top, and I think of that as part of the eating experience.
posted by Nancy Lebovitz at 9:24 AM on May 17, 2022 [1 favorite]


fedward - Bagel Hole is my local, and their decor still lives up to the name. I don't think they're all that mean nowadays, but if you ask for your bagel toasted, they'll just snap "we don't do that."
posted by moonmilk at 11:58 AM on May 17, 2022 [1 favorite]


It's the 5 armed star / pinwheel design that identifies a US 'kaiser' roll.

There's a hyperregional favorite called 'beef on weck' (thin sliced roast beef and horseradish, on a special roll topped with caraway seeds and coarse/kosher salt) - I am just learning that the roll is called kümmelweck?

I also just learned that the pastry I know as a Danish* is called a Vienna in Denmark; but in Vienna they call it a Copenhagen? But others call it a Spandauer maybe?
Food names are weird.

*all this because I was trying to explain bialys to someone who's never had one.
'Ok. you've had a Danish, right? Imagine a Danish, but the pastry is bagel. And the filling is little bits of sautéed onion and poppy seeds. Savoury instead of sweet.'
posted by bartleby at 5:05 PM on May 17, 2022 [1 favorite]


When I did a short study abroad in Vicenza, Italy, our group of American college students stumbled across a Döner Kabob shop and became obsessed. Definitely started with the awkward experience of learning how to order this food we had no concept of in a language we barely knew any of (shop owner did not speak English). Shop owner was thankfully somewhat amused by us, especially since we became super repeat customers for the weeks we were there. This culminated in some absurd Kabob Challenge involving eating a bunch in one day. I can't remember the details.
Anyway more than any other food in Italy I would love to eat another one of those someday. The versions I've had since were different. (I live in Philly, and Greek gyros, halal truck gyros, and shwarma are all delicious and related but definitely different foods).
posted by sepviva at 8:09 PM on May 17, 2022 [1 favorite]


Ouch, mbo, your deliberate cultural hazing is my worst-case lunchtime scenario. Faced with a barrage of questions like that, where I don't understand the rules or really what I'm being asked - as you say, what *is* "everything"? - and especially with a queue of people behind me, and ESPECIALLY when some of them are colleagues... I tend to panic and literally flee. It's fine thanks, I don't need lunch after all, I'll see you back in the office in an hour's time when the adrenalin has ebbed.

Left to my own devices, I don't even go into a cafe or sandwich shop (or queue for street food!) unless I'm *absolutely sure* that I understand how it works and how to play my part. And that's in the UK, where in principle there should be no culture clash or language barrier to worry about. I do not do well at trying the local cuisine when I travel elsewhere by myself.
posted by ManyLeggedCreature at 5:01 AM on May 18, 2022 [1 favorite]


I also just learned that the pastry I know as a Danish* is called a Vienna in Denmark; but in Vienna they call it a Copenhagen? But others call it a Spandauer maybe?

A Spandauer is a subset of Wienerbrød, (Vienna bread). There are two variations, as I hope you can see in the linked image.
posted by mumimor at 12:58 PM on May 18, 2022 [1 favorite]


Metafilter: They're all good brøds, dag.

So if a Spandauer is made with custard, is there another name for the same thing made with Philadelphia (cream cheese)?
posted by bartleby at 1:52 PM on May 18, 2022 [3 favorites]


It's hard to imagine a wienerbrød of any shape with cream cheese in it. Cream cheese does not belong in wienerbrød.

This is nice segue back to the article... You see, Danes are really conservative when it comes to food. There are rules, and they are strict* and heavily policed. You could get a less than friendly treatment in a Danish bakery, if for instance you ask for a wienerbrød with cream cheese. It's not that we wouldn't eat a thing made of puff pastry with cream cheese in it, it just wouldn't be wienerbrød, it would be some interesting foreign delicacy, like a Danish, of which we know nothing. Or a börek, perhaps?

I thought I might make a list of accepted wienerbrød for MetaFilter, but it turns out I can't, because I don't understand the regional differences. Denmark is a tiny country, but apparently there are whole different cultures of wienerbrød in the different regions. No cream cheese anywhere, though. There seems to be an agreement that wienerbrød is made from a yeasted, laminated dough. And most people put remonce in it, but is the remonce with or without marcipan? Can it be wienerbrød without remonce? These are hard questions.

*we have, as a nation, become more tolerant. Back in the sixties and seventies there were schools for tourist groups where they were taught how to eat smørrebrød (open sandwiches), because Danes in restaurants found it so disgusting to sit next to them while they were doing it in the wrong way. There are no longer schools, but non-Danes are still called out if they put the heering on white bread, or eat the leverpostej before the smoked salmon. Ask for help! Don't be an embarrassment.
Some of our handsome and talented neighbors have a completely different attitude to food, which may be confusing for Americans, who are often presented with Scandinavian or Nordic culture as a coherent whole.
posted by mumimor at 12:02 AM on May 19, 2022 [5 favorites]


mumimor: wow, thank you for introducing me to smörgåstårta -- what a cool dish! -- and for the wienerbrød explanation.
posted by brainwane at 5:33 AM on May 19, 2022


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