"I cannot believe we are STILL having these conversations."

May 16, 2022 1:21 PM

Can asexuals be part of pride? Who decides? (Single link S. Bear Bergman). Queer identity may sometimes be about who we might be fucking at the moment, or have done in the past, but it is also about our politics, our place of resistance to the forces of compulsory heterosexuality and all the other pieces of the privilege puzzle that come with it. And you, who are doing the thing with vigor professionally and in your spare time, are definitely not the person I think should be quietly excusing yourself from a dry spot under the rainbow umbrella, if you will.
posted by spamandkimchi (30 comments total)

Oh oh oh, I like this and this part really needs to be amplified:

Being generous is both more fulfilling and also more relaxing than trying to keep accounts and allot each person only that to which we might imagine them allowed.

posted by mochapickle at 1:32 PM on May 16, 2022 [57 favorites]

S. Bear Bergman is the fucking best. So inspiring, always so warm, so wise.
posted by fight or flight at 1:37 PM on May 16, 2022 [6 favorites]

Odd that this is a question but thanks for introducing me to this person who seems nice and wise.
posted by sibboleth at 1:43 PM on May 16, 2022 [5 favorites]

I too was unaware of this seemingly senseless prejudice but this was a nice, humane dispelling of it. Thanks for the link.
posted by BlackLeotardFront at 2:17 PM on May 16, 2022 [3 favorites]

Okay, this was wonderful. Time to go read more of his work.

Screed-ish aside: am I the only one who thinks it is obvious that society should be configured so that if you randomly permute people, no one ends up avoidably worse off? Any combination of skin color, sexual attraction, gender identity, etc. should have no effect. If you suffer from something like MS then given the state of medical science there is unavoidable worseness to being permuted into that position, but hopefully we can, over time, reduce that. It's not like I'm in an marginalized community to make me aware of something like this. I'm a cis-het, wealthy, white male, and it's bleedin' obvious to me that this should be the case.
posted by madhadron at 2:37 PM on May 16, 2022 [13 favorites]

Just going to say that anyone ace or aro who wants to march next to me and my big Trans Women Are Moms Too sign at the next Philly Dyke March is welcome at my side. Message me on that glorious day that we get to have one again, and we'll do it.
posted by Flight Hardware, do not touch at 2:55 PM on May 16, 2022 [35 favorites]

am I the only one who thinks it is obvious that society should be configured so that if you randomly permute people, no one ends up avoidably worse off?

John Rawls, for one, would probably agree with you.
posted by jedicus at 3:02 PM on May 16, 2022 [21 favorites]

This is helpful to me. Thanks for posting.
posted by bleep at 3:25 PM on May 16, 2022 [4 favorites]

I'm of the opinion that if you're someone who feels like you need to make your presence known and felt as a part of Pride, then you should be there and should march if you feel like it. The whole point of Pride is to counteract generations and centuries of shame handed to marginalized people by the dominant culture. If you feel like who you are has been a source of shame and you want to stand up and reclaim your existence, then fucking MARCH IN PRIDE.

Gatekeepers for these events need to be, themselves, gate-kept.
posted by hippybear at 3:35 PM on May 16, 2022 [24 favorites]

Of course asexuals should be part of Pride! That said, one year the bisexuals were scheduled to go right behind them in the local parade and all that purple in a row made distinguishing between the two groups a bit hard.
posted by jb at 3:37 PM on May 16, 2022 [7 favorites]

Time to go read more of his work.

I thought this was excellent.
posted by praemunire at 4:02 PM on May 16, 2022 [6 favorites]

Homo here...but much like George Carlin, I am not a joiner...Can support causes by monetary contributions.
posted by Czjewel at 4:17 PM on May 16, 2022 [2 favorites]

This was a good read for me. When I figured out I was ACE, a load of stress dropped off me. But I've been hesitant to get involved in queer communities because I wasn't certain if I was queer (if that makes any sense). After reading this, I think I'll see what kind of queer communities there are locally and maybe try out some.


(the hemming and hawing are my social anxiety talking)
posted by kathrynm at 4:26 PM on May 16, 2022 [20 favorites]

I've seen people argue that kink doesn't belong at Pride because it makes it unwelcoming for ace folks and children. I tend to think that most of these folks are trolls, but there are definitely some naive and earnest people arguing this.

So the counter-argument tends to be, "fuck you, if you don't like it, don't attend Pride." Because honestly, it is exhausting arguing with people who probably aren't engaging in good faith.

But then the take-away is a sound-bite that reads, "ace folks aren't welcome at Pride."

In reality, everyone's welcome so long as they're not trying to sanitize it and make it palatable to corporations and cops.
posted by explosion at 4:39 PM on May 16, 2022 [6 favorites]

I think the mere fact of walking into the space known as "Pride" means you're sort of taking on a contract to be tolerant and accepting and welcoming and celebratory of anyone and everyone who desires to no longer live with the shame society has put on them forever.

So... if you aren't able to spend an afternoon with some kinksters being around for the exact same reason you are there, because this is your opportunity to stand up publicly within a mass of like-minded others and make society at large have to reckon with your existence... Well, then yeah, you probably shouldn't be there.

Maybe just setting aside your personal discomfort for a time to be in solidarity with others who feel as outcast as you do is something everyone should do for the greater good.
posted by hippybear at 4:42 PM on May 16, 2022 [25 favorites]

There was some anti-ace stuff on Tumblr a few years back, part of the general "exclusionary" movement of trying to more narrowly define who belongs under the LGBTQ+ umbrella.

The general consensus these days, among most of the people who didn't get suckered in anyway (and a distressing number of young people did fall for it this stuff and still believe it), was that this was a TERF tactic to weaken the LGBTQ+ movement by a divide and conquer strategy. The ace people were first, and "queer is a slur," and then they moved on to trying to split the Trans and in some cases the Bi people off too.

An analogy would be to the alt-right pipeline on YouTube that starts with Joe Rogan, there was something similar going on here where going after Ace folks was the first step in a larger radicalization process.

Fortunately it mostly didn't work (except in the echo chambers where it did) and now, as they say, "nature is healing" on Tumblr and of course ace people belong at pride.

As for kink at pride:

"There’s only a few more weeks until the annual “no kink at pride” discourse starts, but with your help we can finally defeat this evil. You see some dumb shit on your dash? Don’t touch it! Scroll past! We can make the world a better place!"

https://vampire-crimson.tumblr.com/post/683149456586194944/theres-only-a-few-more-weeks-until-the-annual-no

"Kink at pride" discourse pops up every year, including in 2020 when all the Pride events were cancelled. Some of it is sincere but more of it is circulated by people who never had any intention to attend Pride to begin with. Just laugh and move on.
posted by subdee at 6:49 PM on May 16, 2022 [14 favorites]

Btw about "exclusion" as a divide and conquer tactic:

Link

Link

Those are a few off the top of my head, if you looked around a few years ago you'd find a lot more.
posted by subdee at 7:10 PM on May 16, 2022 [2 favorites]

yes, "no kink at pride because ace people!" was absolutely a false flag (heh) campaign to foster discontent with aces and aros at pride, far as I can tell.

Many aces are kinky (not me, but I'm maybe a bit of an outlier!) Comparing us to children is kinda offensive, actually, thanks! We are queer, and that's not a slur (more discontent to keep the rest of the alphabet out, see: the "lgb movement")!
posted by zinful at 7:14 PM on May 16, 2022 [14 favorites]

Oh yeah "LGB" movement... Another astroturf campaign.

Link

It's not that I think every viewpoint that contradicts mine is astroturfed, BTW, but that honestly some of them are.

The ace people I know are also mostly kinky, heh! Something something brains work differently.
posted by subdee at 7:26 PM on May 16, 2022 [2 favorites]

Flight Hardware, I don't live anywhere near Philly, but I will be with you in spirit! I am ace and cis. One of the ways I have come to know myself as queer is the kinship I feel with trans people. I think it comes from having identities that both force people to question deep assumptions about the way humans work. We also share being told that our subjective experience is incorrect or pathological (of course gays were pathologized for a long time, but it's not quite the same now). I'll always stand with my trans cousins.
posted by Hex Wrench at 8:09 PM on May 16, 2022 [7 favorites]

As I got older I realized that pride isn't about an in group and an outgroup. It's about a bunch of groups existing in solidarity with each other, all aligned to magnify our powers and celebrate our joys.
posted by Chrysopoeia at 10:16 PM on May 16, 2022 [14 favorites]

Ace here, delighted to read Bergman's thoughts, definitely think the Paradox of Tolerance should be in full effect at Pride. I'm inclined to hang back from Pride a bit because I'm aware my ease-of-passing is high and I want to save space for those for whom it's not.

Yes, I wear an ace ring on the regular and have a nice enamel pin in the ace flag colors on my backpack, but few know what they connote. Since I'm a middle-aged cis woman, the broader society wants to believe I'm ace anyway!

But I would still like to think I'd be welcome, you know?
posted by humbug at 5:42 AM on May 17, 2022 [9 favorites]

Is support of Pride exclusive? I mean, I generally support gay and trans rights, although I'm just this old guy that supports freedom. I don't want to bother anybody (well, except the asshats down the block with their Former Guy signs).
posted by SPrintF at 6:16 AM on May 17, 2022 [2 favorites]

We can thank the TERFs for this bullshit too.

Queer is a fabulous inclusive umbrella and no one needs to explain why and how we're queer and how we might fit in at Pride and whether we belong. Limiting who "counts" to just LGB folk is exclusionary and I say this a B.
posted by lydhre at 8:17 AM on May 17, 2022 [4 favorites]

I've seen people argue that kink doesn't belong at Pride because it makes it unwelcoming for ace folks and children.

I don't see kids carrying much, honestly. It's not that hard to explain to a six year old why it's fun to dress up in a puppy mask and tail or that some people think leather looks neat.
posted by blueberry monster at 10:01 AM on May 17, 2022 [1 favorite]

It is frustrating to continually have to re-litigate these kinds of issues, but it seems to be somewhat in the nature of creating a coalition. I wonder if it helps to think of it as an opportunity to reinforce our commitment to solidarity.

Relatedly, Verily Bitchie (YT) has a couple of good videos that cover the (sometimes fraught) history involved with creating the LGBTQ+ umbrella from a bi/trans perspective:

Bi & Trans History: The Invasion of Lesbianville, Massachusetts

Bisexual Activism in the 70s: The San Francisco Bisexual Center
posted by radiogreentea at 10:03 AM on May 17, 2022

yes, "no kink at pride because ace people!" was absolutely a false flag (heh) campaign to foster discontent with aces and aros at pride, far as I can tell.

there is an odd puritanical streak among some younger people in queer spaces, and quite often it seems like they use "respecting ace experiences" as a cloak for their puritanism. they're usually not ace.

the really baffling thing about it is that everyone who attends pride is going to encounter sexy things that they're not personally into. it might be someone wearing gear associated with a fetish that they're not into, it might be someone dressed sexy who is not their type, etc. some people might be immature and intolerant about it, but they're the minority; everyone else handles it just fine. ace people aren't any different, but people project all sorts of hangs-up on them as a group.
posted by Kutsuwamushi at 2:28 PM on May 17, 2022 [5 favorites]

I am ace, and I cannot IMAGINE objecting to kink or fetish. What the heck. Just because I'm not personally into it gives me zero reason to want to avoid it, much less have it curtailed at Pride.
posted by humbug at 2:48 PM on May 17, 2022 [1 favorite]

to paraphrase a bit I saw on Tumblr a few days ago: if you have to explain your sexuality to straight people, you probably belong at pride

also, for more gentle S. Bear Bergman advice, please seek Special Topics in Being a Human from your local library
posted by The demon that lives in the air at 4:52 PM on May 17, 2022 [7 favorites]

As a semi-tangent, I've always disliked how the term "sex repulsed ace" lumps together people who just find the thought of being personally involved repulsive with people who find the entire idea of sex repulsive. In my experience, people who describe themselves as sex-repulsed generally fall into the first category and also don't have a problem with kink at pride.

And then there's the issue that there's no common term for aces who are just totally disinterested in having sex, so we get lumped in with "sex repulsed."

(As a personal tangent, this is one of the reasons a lot of discussions of asexuality actually feel pretty alienating to me. So many discussions about asexuality are centered around correcting the outsider misconception that "sex repulsed aces" are the only kind, that actually, gray asexuality starts to dominate the discussion/feel like the norm. It doesn't help that the alternative is "sex repulsed.")

There's a lot of projection, I think. It reminds me of how some straight men will comment on sexy photos of women that they don't personally find attractive as though they're actually offended they saw it. Or all the nasty, joking comments about how no one wants to see grandma/grandpa in a bathing suit.

Like, I suspect some allosexuals (especially straight people) go around imagining themselves having sex with anyone who is presenting themselves in a way that could be interpreted as provocative/sexually charged, and get disgusted when that person's not their type. But ace people like me have been living in a world where none of it's for us, ever, and we're used to it and it's fine. We might even appreciate it on levels other than "this makes me want to bang."

So yeah, leave us out of your purity campaigns pls.
posted by Kutsuwamushi at 6:24 AM on May 18, 2022 [12 favorites]