Leave the Sweatshirt at Home. Dining Dress Codes Are Back.
May 17, 2022 1:32 PM Subscribe
A number of restaurants are betting that Americans want to get gussied up again, but not everyone is thrilled about the fashion screening. “There are rules and then there are rules,” she said. “You know when Tom Fontana comes here, he is a neighborhood regular, he wrote ‘Oz,’ he is a good friend of our house. Tom comes, he forgets a jacket, we will close one eye.”
God damn it I was just thinking the other day how nice it was that you didn't have to worry about this anymore and restaurants didn't have to keep a couple of ugly loaner blazers around. But then, with things as they are, I haven't actually "worried" about this in many years. (Downward mobility, you see.)
I have an innate desire to be respectful and see people at least put on decent shoes for an evening. But this is outweighed by the dress code's use as a racist tool, and as a sexist one. To be fair I do not know if restaurant diners, like teenage girls, are told to cover up because they're showing too much cleavage (while being the wrong size or race), but I wouldn't be surprised.
There was a story a while back about a fancy steakhouse in Chicago that created a minimum order requirement along with a more stringent dress code, and Twitter received this as racist signaling. I don't recall the name, or I would link the story.
posted by Countess Elena at 1:40 PM on May 17, 2022 [12 favorites]
I have an innate desire to be respectful and see people at least put on decent shoes for an evening. But this is outweighed by the dress code's use as a racist tool, and as a sexist one. To be fair I do not know if restaurant diners, like teenage girls, are told to cover up because they're showing too much cleavage (while being the wrong size or race), but I wouldn't be surprised.
There was a story a while back about a fancy steakhouse in Chicago that created a minimum order requirement along with a more stringent dress code, and Twitter received this as racist signaling. I don't recall the name, or I would link the story.
posted by Countess Elena at 1:40 PM on May 17, 2022 [12 favorites]
I like to sometimes dress up for dinner, but I think restaurant dress codes are a bad idea to return to. They're often poorly defined (how "fashionable" is "fashionable", exactly?) unevenly enforced and used to turn away 'not our kind' and are frequently flat out racist as the article notes.
A restaurant can create the kind of upscale environment where people are unlikely to wear torn jeans without telling them that they can't wear torn jeans. You can also provide information on what kind of dress is normal on the website or in the social media photos for the restaurant without making rules. Inspecting guests for dress code compliance is not hospitable.
posted by jacquilynne at 1:42 PM on May 17, 2022 [14 favorites]
A restaurant can create the kind of upscale environment where people are unlikely to wear torn jeans without telling them that they can't wear torn jeans. You can also provide information on what kind of dress is normal on the website or in the social media photos for the restaurant without making rules. Inspecting guests for dress code compliance is not hospitable.
posted by jacquilynne at 1:42 PM on May 17, 2022 [14 favorites]
restaurants didn't have to keep a couple of ugly loaner blazers around.
Oddly most restaurants cited seemed to be in more aspirational cities like Dallas, Houston or Los Angeles. Up until recently it wasn't uncommon to see suits or blazers by the Wall Street or consultant set in NYC (recent being ~20 years). LA, Dallas and Houston definitely strike me as de facto casual cities. The fact one restaurant was owned by James Harden shows there's a large aspirational quality or perhaps people who were not necessarily born into it.
Le Bernadin doing away with loaners and Tom Fontana wearing whatever he wants strikes me more of old school WASP restaurants that serve traditional French cuisine. The restaurants profiled by this article seemed to be more along the lines of clubs, you see at traditional high end restaurants they'd have loaner jackets because you might be coming in from golf, a day of boating or simply forgot (or perhaps declasse but still needed to attend a meeting and didn't want to embarrass someone). These new restaurants, for lack of a better word, are intentionally exclusive.
I think far more upper crust is being so well known, such a regular you nor your favorite restaurant cares.
posted by geoff. at 1:48 PM on May 17, 2022 [3 favorites]
Oddly most restaurants cited seemed to be in more aspirational cities like Dallas, Houston or Los Angeles. Up until recently it wasn't uncommon to see suits or blazers by the Wall Street or consultant set in NYC (recent being ~20 years). LA, Dallas and Houston definitely strike me as de facto casual cities. The fact one restaurant was owned by James Harden shows there's a large aspirational quality or perhaps people who were not necessarily born into it.
Le Bernadin doing away with loaners and Tom Fontana wearing whatever he wants strikes me more of old school WASP restaurants that serve traditional French cuisine. The restaurants profiled by this article seemed to be more along the lines of clubs, you see at traditional high end restaurants they'd have loaner jackets because you might be coming in from golf, a day of boating or simply forgot (or perhaps declasse but still needed to attend a meeting and didn't want to embarrass someone). These new restaurants, for lack of a better word, are intentionally exclusive.
I think far more upper crust is being so well known, such a regular you nor your favorite restaurant cares.
posted by geoff. at 1:48 PM on May 17, 2022 [3 favorites]
Why I love living on the West Coast, in wine country, #89421 in a series.
(Although I will occasionally put on tails and a top hat when we go out, because sometimes it's fun to be silly...)
posted by straw at 2:01 PM on May 17, 2022 [9 favorites]
(Although I will occasionally put on tails and a top hat when we go out, because sometimes it's fun to be silly...)
posted by straw at 2:01 PM on May 17, 2022 [9 favorites]
Angie Mar is basically a scenester and this is someone doing free promo for her. *yawn*
posted by praemunire at 2:01 PM on May 17, 2022 [8 favorites]
posted by praemunire at 2:01 PM on May 17, 2022 [8 favorites]
The one time I ever ran into this problem was when I was visiting a friend in Chicago and his family wanted to eat at a certain very old school supper club type restaurant. It looked like the dining hall at Hogwarts. I didn't have a jacket and didn't know we'd be going to a restaurant like that so I didn't even think to pack one. My family never had enough money to go to a restaurant like that. But that's where they wanted to go. So even though I think I was dressed nice (more than I'd normally be just to eat somewhere) I ended up wearing the loaner jacket. And it ruined the whole meal for me. The food was fine but the whole time I felt like the restaurant thought I wasn't good enough to be eating there. Like I was less than because I didn't have a damn jacket. As if I was a fool for thinking I could eat food without one. I've never wanted to go back to any place that would be so snobby and elitest. If I'm dressed like a normal human being I should be served the same as anyone else.
posted by downtohisturtles at 2:03 PM on May 17, 2022 [47 favorites]
posted by downtohisturtles at 2:03 PM on May 17, 2022 [47 favorites]
This would have an entirely different ring to it if Americans didn't also use any possible excuse up to and including mass violence to keep people they think they're better than out of the public.
posted by bleep at 2:10 PM on May 17, 2022 [10 favorites]
posted by bleep at 2:10 PM on May 17, 2022 [10 favorites]
★☆☆☆☆ Would not recommend. Food may have been great, but I sure couldn't tell, since they fucking drowned it in pretentiousness. Avoid!
posted by xedrik at 2:25 PM on May 17, 2022 [3 favorites]
posted by xedrik at 2:25 PM on May 17, 2022 [3 favorites]
Mitchell and Webb once again predicted the future.
posted by interogative mood at 2:28 PM on May 17, 2022 [7 favorites]
posted by interogative mood at 2:28 PM on May 17, 2022 [7 favorites]
I know we all love to bag on Style and Dining section articles, but this one is way better than most, and has a good discussion of the exclusionary aspects and the pluses and minuses in the last half of the article. If you are going to click on the link, it's worth reading through.
So even though I think I was dressed nice (more than I'd normally be just to eat somewhere) I ended up wearing the loaner jacket. And it ruined the whole meal for me.
That sounds terrible. And also kind of gross, I don't really want to wear a jacket that has been stress-sweated in by every person stuck in that terrible situation.
But while the loaner jacket thing is laughable, I do get why some people want to get dressed up and go to places where other people are dressed up. It's not my personal desire (I am so casual that I don't even own the right clothes to get in the door), but I get it and understand why there is a market for this.
However, that's only positive if it isn't implemented in openly exclusionary ways (like the example of the mayor of Atlanta being turned away, or the misgenderings).
posted by Dip Flash at 2:41 PM on May 17, 2022 [8 favorites]
So even though I think I was dressed nice (more than I'd normally be just to eat somewhere) I ended up wearing the loaner jacket. And it ruined the whole meal for me.
That sounds terrible. And also kind of gross, I don't really want to wear a jacket that has been stress-sweated in by every person stuck in that terrible situation.
But while the loaner jacket thing is laughable, I do get why some people want to get dressed up and go to places where other people are dressed up. It's not my personal desire (I am so casual that I don't even own the right clothes to get in the door), but I get it and understand why there is a market for this.
However, that's only positive if it isn't implemented in openly exclusionary ways (like the example of the mayor of Atlanta being turned away, or the misgenderings).
posted by Dip Flash at 2:41 PM on May 17, 2022 [8 favorites]
The one time I ever ran into this problem was when I was visiting a friend in Chicago and his family wanted to eat at a certain very old school supper club type restaurant.
downtohisturtles
You should have made it clear that they were dealing with Abe Froman, the Sausage King of Chicago.
posted by star gentle uterus at 2:47 PM on May 17, 2022 [15 favorites]
downtohisturtles
You should have made it clear that they were dealing with Abe Froman, the Sausage King of Chicago.
posted by star gentle uterus at 2:47 PM on May 17, 2022 [15 favorites]
From TFA:
Marissa Hermer, an owner of the Los Angeles restaurants Olivetta and Issima, said diners often tell her that the restaurants’ dress requirements make them feel as if they are part of a members-only club.
...and...
Andre M. Perry, a senior fellow at the Brookings Institution in Washington who has written about race and dress codes, is skeptical of today’s restaurant guidelines. “I am hard-pressed to find a dress code that isn’t fraught, but I don’t want to also say that a restaurant shouldn’t inspire community of a certain kind,” he said.
Also, geoff. sez: Oddly most restaurants cited seemed to be in more aspirational cities like Dallas, Houston or Los Angeles...
This is what it all boils down to.
There's a large subset of hungry humans who are willing to pay for the experience of feeling rich/elite/fancy. Actually being that thing is not necessary, but you need to look the part. And everyone else around you needs to look the part as well. If you're tucking in to your Coq Au Vin and sipping wine that's been marked up 5x and someone who isn't dressed for a GQ photoshoot walks in, the spell is broken. Now you're just eating chicken dinner in a dark room.
I'd expect to find this sort of thing a lot more in cities with inferiority complexes, full of people that need to remind themselves of how high-brow or, at the very least, how not-low-brow they are.
That said, I do like the "let's look nice to respect the people who will be serving us" angle. That's a particularly skillful way to reposition a cultural norm with racist/classist roots as something less nasty and actually kind of thoughtful.
posted by neuracnu at 2:48 PM on May 17, 2022 [12 favorites]
Marissa Hermer, an owner of the Los Angeles restaurants Olivetta and Issima, said diners often tell her that the restaurants’ dress requirements make them feel as if they are part of a members-only club.
...and...
Andre M. Perry, a senior fellow at the Brookings Institution in Washington who has written about race and dress codes, is skeptical of today’s restaurant guidelines. “I am hard-pressed to find a dress code that isn’t fraught, but I don’t want to also say that a restaurant shouldn’t inspire community of a certain kind,” he said.
Also, geoff. sez: Oddly most restaurants cited seemed to be in more aspirational cities like Dallas, Houston or Los Angeles...
This is what it all boils down to.
There's a large subset of hungry humans who are willing to pay for the experience of feeling rich/elite/fancy. Actually being that thing is not necessary, but you need to look the part. And everyone else around you needs to look the part as well. If you're tucking in to your Coq Au Vin and sipping wine that's been marked up 5x and someone who isn't dressed for a GQ photoshoot walks in, the spell is broken. Now you're just eating chicken dinner in a dark room.
I'd expect to find this sort of thing a lot more in cities with inferiority complexes, full of people that need to remind themselves of how high-brow or, at the very least, how not-low-brow they are.
That said, I do like the "let's look nice to respect the people who will be serving us" angle. That's a particularly skillful way to reposition a cultural norm with racist/classist roots as something less nasty and actually kind of thoughtful.
posted by neuracnu at 2:48 PM on May 17, 2022 [12 favorites]
Why I love living on the West Coast, in wine country, #89421 in a series.
Hahahaha yeah, I just Googled and the snootiest place I could think of, the French Laundry (of Newsom/Covid dining fame) requires a dress code, but I don't think I've ever been anywhere else that did, even in SF fine dining that I've been to.
I kinda agree with what neuracnu just said, in that it's fun for some of us to go somewhere fancy to be fancy, and having someone show up in their usual slobby jockwear does kinda look sad. But that said, it's probably not worth the drama and hurt feelings to literally tell someone who's already shown up in slobby jockwear to well, do anything.
posted by jenfullmoon at 2:52 PM on May 17, 2022 [2 favorites]
Hahahaha yeah, I just Googled and the snootiest place I could think of, the French Laundry (of Newsom/Covid dining fame) requires a dress code, but I don't think I've ever been anywhere else that did, even in SF fine dining that I've been to.
I kinda agree with what neuracnu just said, in that it's fun for some of us to go somewhere fancy to be fancy, and having someone show up in their usual slobby jockwear does kinda look sad. But that said, it's probably not worth the drama and hurt feelings to literally tell someone who's already shown up in slobby jockwear to well, do anything.
posted by jenfullmoon at 2:52 PM on May 17, 2022 [2 favorites]
I do get why some people want to get dressed up and go to places where other people are dressed up. It's not my personal desire (I am so casual that I don't even own the right clothes to get in the door), but I get it and understand why there is a market for this.
Me, too (on all counts). I just wish the effect wasn't so exclusionary.
posted by praemunire at 3:15 PM on May 17, 2022
Me, too (on all counts). I just wish the effect wasn't so exclusionary.
posted by praemunire at 3:15 PM on May 17, 2022
There's a large subset of hungry humans who are willing to pay for the experience of feeling rich/elite/fancy.
I find these are often the same folks who feel that pretending to be rich/elite/fancy includes as a bonus being insulting and hostile toward servers.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 4:23 PM on May 17, 2022 [11 favorites]
I find these are often the same folks who feel that pretending to be rich/elite/fancy includes as a bonus being insulting and hostile toward servers.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 4:23 PM on May 17, 2022 [11 favorites]
I find these are often the same folks who feel that pretending to be rich/elite/fancy includes as a bonus being insulting and hostile toward servers.
Not picking this one comment out or even disagreeing, but while I'm not surprised by the response here I think there's a huge disconnect on what the article was trying to say or I misinterpreted it.
This is no different from people cosplaying, or doing their own thing. Wearing a jacket to dinner wasn't traditionally an event unto itself, it was just what people of a certain background did. This is why the loaner jackets were common, it wasn't meant to insult people but like forgetting to bring clubs on vacation so you rent some. It isn't that you couldn't afford it or weren't apart of the group (though I have empathy for those who get caught in the awkward situation).
Like I said earlier, I found that the people doing this and the people this cater to aren't necessarily going to the French Laundry but instead wanting to go to a club afterwards. I mean Thirteen by James Harden has take-out for God's sake, and a "VIP Lounge," I don't think the 21 Club or Elaine's had take-out or a VIP club.
Same with Catbird in Dallas which has a DJ night! Some of these restaurants emphasize things like 24 gold karat ribeye (?!) and everything apparently needs truffles.
This isn't necessarily American modern, or traditional French cuisine -- it is the dining equivalent of the Renaissance Festival.
posted by geoff. at 4:54 PM on May 17, 2022 [12 favorites]
Not picking this one comment out or even disagreeing, but while I'm not surprised by the response here I think there's a huge disconnect on what the article was trying to say or I misinterpreted it.
This is no different from people cosplaying, or doing their own thing. Wearing a jacket to dinner wasn't traditionally an event unto itself, it was just what people of a certain background did. This is why the loaner jackets were common, it wasn't meant to insult people but like forgetting to bring clubs on vacation so you rent some. It isn't that you couldn't afford it or weren't apart of the group (though I have empathy for those who get caught in the awkward situation).
Like I said earlier, I found that the people doing this and the people this cater to aren't necessarily going to the French Laundry but instead wanting to go to a club afterwards. I mean Thirteen by James Harden has take-out for God's sake, and a "VIP Lounge," I don't think the 21 Club or Elaine's had take-out or a VIP club.
Same with Catbird in Dallas which has a DJ night! Some of these restaurants emphasize things like 24 gold karat ribeye (?!) and everything apparently needs truffles.
This isn't necessarily American modern, or traditional French cuisine -- it is the dining equivalent of the Renaissance Festival.
posted by geoff. at 4:54 PM on May 17, 2022 [12 favorites]
I know we all love to bag on Style and Dining section articles, but this one is way better than most, and has a good discussion of the exclusionary aspects
Yeah I read the whole thing and I read it a second time after seeing your comment and... the whole thing still stinks. Exclusionary aspects? The whole thing is exclusionary, and the exceptions to the rule ("Tom comes, he forgets a jacket, we will close one eye" / "designer athletic wear, like Lululemon, could be allowed in") just drive the point home. And the quoted rationale ("our wallpaper is from Gucci" / "pastry stuffed with foie gras") seems further designed to enrage; it's practically a caricature. It almost feels like the NYT is doing this on purpose.
posted by splitpeasoup at 4:54 PM on May 17, 2022 [4 favorites]
Yeah I read the whole thing and I read it a second time after seeing your comment and... the whole thing still stinks. Exclusionary aspects? The whole thing is exclusionary, and the exceptions to the rule ("Tom comes, he forgets a jacket, we will close one eye" / "designer athletic wear, like Lululemon, could be allowed in") just drive the point home. And the quoted rationale ("our wallpaper is from Gucci" / "pastry stuffed with foie gras") seems further designed to enrage; it's practically a caricature. It almost feels like the NYT is doing this on purpose.
posted by splitpeasoup at 4:54 PM on May 17, 2022 [4 favorites]
Charlotte, NC, rooftop restaurant at the hotel we were staying at. We read about the dress code and tried to adjust as best we could using what we brought for a rock and roll concert weekend (we were not expecting a dress code).
My freshly airport shoe stand polished Danner boots were commented upon, and I was told I had to remove my hat (not a baseball cap). Surprised they didn't remark on my 501s, really.
But we were allowed in, and still subtly harassed for about 20 minutes while we were moved from one seat to another "because they didn't realize there was a big party coming in", and then offered drinks which they were somehow out of when we ordered them.
It was one of the most bizarre experiences I've ever had, and I don't plan on going to any other restaurants in Charlotte that have a dress code, ever. (I live in WA, so this is unlikely to begin with.)
posted by hippybear at 4:57 PM on May 17, 2022 [6 favorites]
My freshly airport shoe stand polished Danner boots were commented upon, and I was told I had to remove my hat (not a baseball cap). Surprised they didn't remark on my 501s, really.
But we were allowed in, and still subtly harassed for about 20 minutes while we were moved from one seat to another "because they didn't realize there was a big party coming in", and then offered drinks which they were somehow out of when we ordered them.
It was one of the most bizarre experiences I've ever had, and I don't plan on going to any other restaurants in Charlotte that have a dress code, ever. (I live in WA, so this is unlikely to begin with.)
posted by hippybear at 4:57 PM on May 17, 2022 [6 favorites]
Plus they charge you a fee of $50 and you have to present valid ID and wait 30 additional minutes to be seated so they can complete the criminal background check.
posted by jamjam at 5:00 PM on May 17, 2022
posted by jamjam at 5:00 PM on May 17, 2022
I remember once going to an old-school steakhouse at age nine with my parents and younger brother. This would be in the late eighties. It had a very strictly enforced dress code. Although my dad was wearing a suit and tie and my mother an eighties business outfit (with the floppy bow tie a la Meg Ryan here!) , my mother hated buying boy's dress clothes because we'd wear it once or twice and then grow out of it. So our "dress up" clothes were a white shirt, clip on tie, and a pair of black jeans and black loafers. The maitre d' tried to refuse us entry because me and my 7 year old brother were not "appropriately dressed", and only relented after an argument with my parents. I remember thinking that maybe the maitre d' would prevail, we'd take those awful clip on ties off, and then go to McDonald's and get a Happy Meal. But instead we had to sit through a formal meal with itchy ties on. While this is an amusing story to us now, it's not a far leap from that to some of the stories told in the article about exclusionary and racist responses to clothing.
Zooming out a little bit, it's interesting to observe how North American society in my lifetime has almost completely abandoned the idea of dressing in specific ways for specific situations or events. The idea that certain institutions or locales can enforce a dress code is not too popular. I was glad to read recently a book called called Dress Codes: How the Laws of Fashion Made History by Richard Thompson Ford, which addresses some of these larger trends in clothing and fashion:
Even in today’s more informal world, dress codes still determine what we wear, when we wear it—and what our clothing means. People lose their jobs for wearing braided hair, long fingernails, large earrings, beards, and tattoos or refusing to wear a suit and tie or make-up and high heels. In some cities, wearing sagging pants is a crime. And even when there are no written rules, implicit dress codes still influence opportunities and social mobility.
I find the ways in which clothing and dress reflect social standards endlessly fascinating. Ford's book does address the paradox of how abandoning specific dress codes sometimes reinforces unspoken clothing norms that are far more exclusionary and difficult to read than a specific dress code. Ford is a Black man who also explicitly address the racial and gendered aspects of Western fashion, so judging from the views in some of the comments above, I would really recommend this book to them.
Oh, and to end with a contemporary anecdote to bookend the beginning of my comment: we took my kids to see Handel's Messiah last Christmas in the city, during one of the windows between COVID surges (we properly followed the rules and did not contract or spread COVID, FYI). We hadn't been out to do anything since March 2020, were sick of living in pyjamas and sweatpants, and so we had this idea that you dressed up to go to the symphony. So the kids wore nice dresses / slacks and button down shirts, my wife wore a nice blazer and skirt, and I had on a sport coat (no tie) and slacks. We were definitely on the dressier end of the audience, but it was actually really nice to go somewhere and look kind of dressy and well put together. What was really bizarre was that the orchestra dressed in full on white tie and tails for the men. We walked past a couple of the musicians in the lobby and it felt for a second like they were dressed in clown outfits or Louis XIV-style court dress, they were so out of place. I think white tie is a very classy outfit, but in 2022 North America, it's a costume, not a normal style of dress. I would personally put the musicians in dark suits and/or dresses, which at least is within the realm of normal contemporary dress.
posted by fortitude25 at 5:01 PM on May 17, 2022 [4 favorites]
Zooming out a little bit, it's interesting to observe how North American society in my lifetime has almost completely abandoned the idea of dressing in specific ways for specific situations or events. The idea that certain institutions or locales can enforce a dress code is not too popular. I was glad to read recently a book called called Dress Codes: How the Laws of Fashion Made History by Richard Thompson Ford, which addresses some of these larger trends in clothing and fashion:
Even in today’s more informal world, dress codes still determine what we wear, when we wear it—and what our clothing means. People lose their jobs for wearing braided hair, long fingernails, large earrings, beards, and tattoos or refusing to wear a suit and tie or make-up and high heels. In some cities, wearing sagging pants is a crime. And even when there are no written rules, implicit dress codes still influence opportunities and social mobility.
I find the ways in which clothing and dress reflect social standards endlessly fascinating. Ford's book does address the paradox of how abandoning specific dress codes sometimes reinforces unspoken clothing norms that are far more exclusionary and difficult to read than a specific dress code. Ford is a Black man who also explicitly address the racial and gendered aspects of Western fashion, so judging from the views in some of the comments above, I would really recommend this book to them.
Oh, and to end with a contemporary anecdote to bookend the beginning of my comment: we took my kids to see Handel's Messiah last Christmas in the city, during one of the windows between COVID surges (we properly followed the rules and did not contract or spread COVID, FYI). We hadn't been out to do anything since March 2020, were sick of living in pyjamas and sweatpants, and so we had this idea that you dressed up to go to the symphony. So the kids wore nice dresses / slacks and button down shirts, my wife wore a nice blazer and skirt, and I had on a sport coat (no tie) and slacks. We were definitely on the dressier end of the audience, but it was actually really nice to go somewhere and look kind of dressy and well put together. What was really bizarre was that the orchestra dressed in full on white tie and tails for the men. We walked past a couple of the musicians in the lobby and it felt for a second like they were dressed in clown outfits or Louis XIV-style court dress, they were so out of place. I think white tie is a very classy outfit, but in 2022 North America, it's a costume, not a normal style of dress. I would personally put the musicians in dark suits and/or dresses, which at least is within the realm of normal contemporary dress.
posted by fortitude25 at 5:01 PM on May 17, 2022 [4 favorites]
having someone show up in their usual slobby jockwear does kinda look sad
I literally do not care what other people are wearing. It's not my business and has nothing to do with me. But I do live in the extremely casual southwest where wearing pants, not shorts, is about as formal as we get.
This is no different from people cosplaying
Mmmm, but nope. I go to spaces where people are cosplaying and I do not cosplay and I am accepted and welcomed. The cosplayers I know are not doing it to be exclusionary of anyone.
posted by See you tomorrow, saguaro at 5:12 PM on May 17, 2022 [16 favorites]
I literally do not care what other people are wearing. It's not my business and has nothing to do with me. But I do live in the extremely casual southwest where wearing pants, not shorts, is about as formal as we get.
This is no different from people cosplaying
Mmmm, but nope. I go to spaces where people are cosplaying and I do not cosplay and I am accepted and welcomed. The cosplayers I know are not doing it to be exclusionary of anyone.
posted by See you tomorrow, saguaro at 5:12 PM on May 17, 2022 [16 favorites]
TFA literally "suits are making a comeback"
posted by glonous keming at 5:15 PM on May 17, 2022
posted by glonous keming at 5:15 PM on May 17, 2022
[W]hile I'm not surprised by the response here I think there's a huge disconnect on what the article was trying to say or I misinterpreted it.
This is no different from people cosplaying, or doing their own thing.
Agree on all points. Is it OK for, say, a goth club to have a dress code? Sometimes people want to hang out in a place with a certain atmosphere, and the way people are dressed supports that atmosphere -- or detracts from it.
I don't see a problem with people wanting to have this kind of experience. The key, of course, is that the standards should be communicated clearly and enforced impartially. It's unfortunate when dress codes are used as an excuse for racial discrimination.
But the dress code isn't the problem there -- the racism is. You could argue that a dress code may even potentially function as a kind of social leveling mechanism, allowing anyone who (for example) puts on a jacket to fit right in, regardless of race, class, etc.
Of course American society has gotten dramatically less formal in recent decades, and I guess many men don't even own a blazer or anything resembling one. Still, you can buy an unstructured blazer from Uniqlo for $30, which is probably less than you'd spend on a meal at many restaurants that ask customers to dress up a bit.
posted by Artifice_Eternity at 5:16 PM on May 17, 2022 [2 favorites]
This is no different from people cosplaying, or doing their own thing.
Agree on all points. Is it OK for, say, a goth club to have a dress code? Sometimes people want to hang out in a place with a certain atmosphere, and the way people are dressed supports that atmosphere -- or detracts from it.
I don't see a problem with people wanting to have this kind of experience. The key, of course, is that the standards should be communicated clearly and enforced impartially. It's unfortunate when dress codes are used as an excuse for racial discrimination.
But the dress code isn't the problem there -- the racism is. You could argue that a dress code may even potentially function as a kind of social leveling mechanism, allowing anyone who (for example) puts on a jacket to fit right in, regardless of race, class, etc.
Of course American society has gotten dramatically less formal in recent decades, and I guess many men don't even own a blazer or anything resembling one. Still, you can buy an unstructured blazer from Uniqlo for $30, which is probably less than you'd spend on a meal at many restaurants that ask customers to dress up a bit.
posted by Artifice_Eternity at 5:16 PM on May 17, 2022 [2 favorites]
But the dress code isn't the problem there -- the racism is.
The restaurants the article talked about were absolutely targeting the black community so this is definitely not country club racism. In fact I think that's actually a more interesting topic: Southern, black owned businesses taking on the trappings of Northeastern elitism.
But again, as you noted wearing a jacket is not exactly exclusive. A $30 blazer is definitely cheaper than a Northface pullover.
posted by geoff. at 5:44 PM on May 17, 2022 [3 favorites]
The restaurants the article talked about were absolutely targeting the black community so this is definitely not country club racism. In fact I think that's actually a more interesting topic: Southern, black owned businesses taking on the trappings of Northeastern elitism.
But again, as you noted wearing a jacket is not exactly exclusive. A $30 blazer is definitely cheaper than a Northface pullover.
posted by geoff. at 5:44 PM on May 17, 2022 [3 favorites]
Sometimes people want to hang out in a place with a certain atmosphere, and the way people are dressed supports that atmosphere -- or detracts from it.
Lot of commenters in this post who never had to dress up for church/temple/mosque when they were kids, I guess. It's the same theory, even if the basis is stronger (if you believe in the deity in question).
posted by praemunire at 6:07 PM on May 17, 2022 [3 favorites]
Lot of commenters in this post who never had to dress up for church/temple/mosque when they were kids, I guess. It's the same theory, even if the basis is stronger (if you believe in the deity in question).
posted by praemunire at 6:07 PM on May 17, 2022 [3 favorites]
I honestly thought the idea of a formal dress code (and thus loaner jackets, etc.) in restaurants had died out thirty years ago. I vaguely remember a Seinfeld episode poking fun at the idea, as though it were an absurd relic of the past, in the late 90's? Learning that they're (a) still a thing and (b) just as shitty, classist, and racist as one might expect makes me want to find the one closest to me and pay it a visit, without the requisite jacket. I'm a 52XL in a suit jacket, which is about as far to the right side of the bell curve as you can get without flipping your phone to landscape mode. Pretty much any loaner jacket a place like that might carry is guaranteed to look like doll clothes on me, thus letting me go Bruce-Banner-gets-angry on it first chance I get.
posted by Mayor West at 7:12 PM on May 17, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by Mayor West at 7:12 PM on May 17, 2022 [1 favorite]
Such a peculiar name-drop.
posted by yellowcandy at 8:08 PM on May 17, 2022
posted by yellowcandy at 8:08 PM on May 17, 2022
wait 30 additional minutes to be seated so they can complete the criminal background check.
Whaaaaaaaaaaat?!? To eat in a damn restaurant?!
posted by jenfullmoon at 8:37 PM on May 17, 2022 [1 favorite]
Whaaaaaaaaaaat?!? To eat in a damn restaurant?!
posted by jenfullmoon at 8:37 PM on May 17, 2022 [1 favorite]
In fact I think that's actually a more interesting topic: Southern, black owned businesses taking on the trappings of Northeastern elitism.
I'm not sure there's anything particularly Northeastern about being expected to dress up in a restaurant. The entire country used to be much more formal.
60 years ago, every city of any significant size in the country would have had restaurants with dress codes that would seem unbearably stodgy to many contemporary people. And FWIW, I'm sure this included many restaurants owned by and catering to people in nonwhite communities.
The conflation of formality with racism and classism that I'm seeing here seems kind of arbitrary to me. It feels more like a matter of taste than a well-thought position.
posted by Artifice_Eternity at 8:44 PM on May 17, 2022 [3 favorites]
I'm not sure there's anything particularly Northeastern about being expected to dress up in a restaurant. The entire country used to be much more formal.
60 years ago, every city of any significant size in the country would have had restaurants with dress codes that would seem unbearably stodgy to many contemporary people. And FWIW, I'm sure this included many restaurants owned by and catering to people in nonwhite communities.
The conflation of formality with racism and classism that I'm seeing here seems kind of arbitrary to me. It feels more like a matter of taste than a well-thought position.
posted by Artifice_Eternity at 8:44 PM on May 17, 2022 [3 favorites]
But I mean if you want to go to a place where everyone is dressed up shouldn't it be because everyone chose that & not because the waiter glumly forced you into a costume. How much do people really look at other people & seriously judge what they're wearing.
posted by bleep at 8:47 PM on May 17, 2022 [3 favorites]
posted by bleep at 8:47 PM on May 17, 2022 [3 favorites]
But I mean if you want to go to a place where everyone is dressed up shouldn't it be because everyone chose that & not because the waiter glumly forced you into a costume.
That definitely seems preferable! I would guess the vast majority of customers in restaurants with a dress code comply with it willingly. And I would guess the staff much prefer it that way too.
How much do people really look at other people & seriously judge what they're wearing.
I dunno, it seems to be one of humanity's favorite pastimes...
posted by Artifice_Eternity at 8:57 PM on May 17, 2022 [1 favorite]
That definitely seems preferable! I would guess the vast majority of customers in restaurants with a dress code comply with it willingly. And I would guess the staff much prefer it that way too.
How much do people really look at other people & seriously judge what they're wearing.
I dunno, it seems to be one of humanity's favorite pastimes...
posted by Artifice_Eternity at 8:57 PM on May 17, 2022 [1 favorite]
I was told I had to remove my hat (not a baseball cap)
This is the least surprising bit to me, as hat management to the general Anglo/Euro/American rules is "a culture, not a costume" for enough people still. But not for you? Huh.
They were supposed to have a good safe place for the hat and whisk it back to you when you rose. Yesno?
posted by clew at 9:37 PM on May 17, 2022
This is the least surprising bit to me, as hat management to the general Anglo/Euro/American rules is "a culture, not a costume" for enough people still. But not for you? Huh.
They were supposed to have a good safe place for the hat and whisk it back to you when you rose. Yesno?
posted by clew at 9:37 PM on May 17, 2022
Is it OK for, say, a goth club to have a dress code?
No? No more so than anywhere else. And not one goth club I've ever been to has had one. I've never tried to go to one and not been let it because I don't dress goth, either.
Dress codes are inherently exclusionary. I could talk about how it can alienate trans people (maybe you can feel comfortable and kinda pass in [clothing style A] but not at all in [clothing style B] - this is fairly common) or many autistic people (sensitivity issues around e.g. anything with a collar doesn't work well with forced formal, for example) but as ever, the world won't care anyway.
posted by Dysk at 1:00 AM on May 18, 2022 [6 favorites]
No? No more so than anywhere else. And not one goth club I've ever been to has had one. I've never tried to go to one and not been let it because I don't dress goth, either.
Dress codes are inherently exclusionary. I could talk about how it can alienate trans people (maybe you can feel comfortable and kinda pass in [clothing style A] but not at all in [clothing style B] - this is fairly common) or many autistic people (sensitivity issues around e.g. anything with a collar doesn't work well with forced formal, for example) but as ever, the world won't care anyway.
posted by Dysk at 1:00 AM on May 18, 2022 [6 favorites]
There's a large subset of hungry humans who are willing to pay for the experience of feeling rich/elite/fancy. Actually being that thing is not necessary, but you need to look the part. And everyone else around you needs to look the part as well. If you're tucking in to your Coq Au Vin and sipping wine that's been marked up 5x and someone who isn't dressed for a GQ photoshoot walks in, the spell is broken. Now you're just eating chicken dinner in a dark room.
Cargo cult shit.
posted by non canadian guy at 4:29 AM on May 18, 2022 [5 favorites]
Cargo cult shit.
posted by non canadian guy at 4:29 AM on May 18, 2022 [5 favorites]
>> Is it OK for, say, a goth club to have a dress code?
>No? No more so than anywhere else. And not one goth club I've ever been to has had one. I've never tried to go to one and not been let it because I don't dress goth, either.
I have definitely been to goth clubs/goth nights where there was in fact a dress code and have had to argue with their door people about whether or not I met the criteria (I didn't, really, but they've always relented and let me in). I can't speak to how typical or atypical that is overall, but I have personally experienced it several times.
posted by Dip Flash at 7:01 AM on May 18, 2022 [3 favorites]
>No? No more so than anywhere else. And not one goth club I've ever been to has had one. I've never tried to go to one and not been let it because I don't dress goth, either.
I have definitely been to goth clubs/goth nights where there was in fact a dress code and have had to argue with their door people about whether or not I met the criteria (I didn't, really, but they've always relented and let me in). I can't speak to how typical or atypical that is overall, but I have personally experienced it several times.
posted by Dip Flash at 7:01 AM on May 18, 2022 [3 favorites]
"How much do people really look at other people & seriously judge what they're wearing."
Been going on for a long time.
“For what do we live, but to make sport for our neighbors, and laugh at them in our turn?”
posted by aleph at 7:22 AM on May 18, 2022 [1 favorite]
Been going on for a long time.
“For what do we live, but to make sport for our neighbors, and laugh at them in our turn?”
posted by aleph at 7:22 AM on May 18, 2022 [1 favorite]
I think dress codes kind of suck, but there are over 1 million restaurants in the US, which does not include all the other places that people can buy food but are not restaurants. So that's one for every 330 people, and actually fewer than that in major cities because small towns don't hold that rate. So if a few want to be exclusionary, let them have it.
posted by The_Vegetables at 8:14 AM on May 18, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by The_Vegetables at 8:14 AM on May 18, 2022 [1 favorite]
Part of what makes a restaurant experience an experience is the atmosphere. This includes things such as decor, lighting, noise levels, presence/absence/volume/genre of music, tablewear, style of service, etc. and definitely includes the decorum of others in the room. If part of an establishment's offering is the atmosphere created through certain modes of dress, I don't see why it shouldn't be able to do so. One of the OGs of the early cocktails revival in NYC, Milk and Honey, was famous for house rules included things such as "Gentlemen will remove their hats" and "No hooting, hollering, shouting, or other loud behavior" -- the point of which is that the bar wanted to offer a certain kind of experience to those who sought that kind of experience. Milk & Honey explicitly wanted to be a place where women could enjoy a well-made cocktail without being bothered, and I saw plenty of guys get 86ed from Milk & Honey over the years due to violating the rule against chatting up women at another table.
For me, personally, there is a kind of restaurant experience I like to have from time to time for which a mode of dress and deportment among those present does have an impact--and, yeah, sitting alongside a table of people wearing sweat pants and flipflops does negatively effect the experience. It's not just having dinner while wearing a jacket and necktie that makes the experience, it's also having dinner in a room among others who are similarly attired.
I don't have a problem with an establishment making clear that there are dress expectations. At the same time, however, I understand that these things can be used to exclude people unfairly based on discriminatory factors. So these things have to be considered carefully, set forth clearly and enforced consistently. It seems to me that something along the lines of "jackets and collared shirts, no athletic apparel, no jeans and no sneakers" isn't too onerous an ask. But I recognize that, if an establishment would like to have a dress expectation, it has to be able to handle those who don't conform with all due kindness and consideration. If one member of an otherwise appropriately attired party is wearing a tracksuit, that person most likely already understands its a faux pas and the staff should attempt to be reasonably accommodating and make that person as comfortable as possible. If the entire party is in tracksuits, or if that one person returns again and again in a tracksuit, that may merit a different kind of response.
Needless to say, those for whom restaurants are about nothing more than putting food in people's stomachs aren't likely to agree with this viewpoint. That's fine, of course. But there should be room for both kinds of places.
posted by slkinsey at 9:05 AM on May 18, 2022 [9 favorites]
For me, personally, there is a kind of restaurant experience I like to have from time to time for which a mode of dress and deportment among those present does have an impact--and, yeah, sitting alongside a table of people wearing sweat pants and flipflops does negatively effect the experience. It's not just having dinner while wearing a jacket and necktie that makes the experience, it's also having dinner in a room among others who are similarly attired.
I don't have a problem with an establishment making clear that there are dress expectations. At the same time, however, I understand that these things can be used to exclude people unfairly based on discriminatory factors. So these things have to be considered carefully, set forth clearly and enforced consistently. It seems to me that something along the lines of "jackets and collared shirts, no athletic apparel, no jeans and no sneakers" isn't too onerous an ask. But I recognize that, if an establishment would like to have a dress expectation, it has to be able to handle those who don't conform with all due kindness and consideration. If one member of an otherwise appropriately attired party is wearing a tracksuit, that person most likely already understands its a faux pas and the staff should attempt to be reasonably accommodating and make that person as comfortable as possible. If the entire party is in tracksuits, or if that one person returns again and again in a tracksuit, that may merit a different kind of response.
Needless to say, those for whom restaurants are about nothing more than putting food in people's stomachs aren't likely to agree with this viewpoint. That's fine, of course. But there should be room for both kinds of places.
posted by slkinsey at 9:05 AM on May 18, 2022 [9 favorites]
Everyone I know in the service industry would absolutely despise having to enforce a dress code as part of the job, and I can't really imagine that anyone would want to add that BS to their day. I mean, I'm sure there's some people out there who would relish turning someone away, but those people are dicks. This definitely stinks of "the fucking owners want to do this because they think it's a good idea and nobody will tell them no because they sign the paychecks."
posted by axiom at 10:53 AM on May 18, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by axiom at 10:53 AM on May 18, 2022 [2 favorites]
The fact I've been to Milk and Honey and it is now considered OG makes me feel either old or cool. I hope it is the latter.
posted by geoff. at 11:15 AM on May 18, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by geoff. at 11:15 AM on May 18, 2022 [1 favorite]
I don't mind places with dress codes, but I think they should be very explicit so that I can avoid the restaurants that have them. My experience is that people dress nicely for regular (no dress code) upscale restaurants, so layering a dress code on top of that is a signal that the restaurant is fostering a vibe that I will not enjoy. It all feels a little silly to me.
posted by grandiloquiet at 11:30 AM on May 18, 2022
posted by grandiloquiet at 11:30 AM on May 18, 2022
no, just no, not wearing rich people's uniform just to eat food - will spend my money elsewhere
posted by mbo at 11:34 AM on May 18, 2022 [4 favorites]
posted by mbo at 11:34 AM on May 18, 2022 [4 favorites]
Dress codes are pretentious, classist, frequently racist horseshit, and the world would be objectively better if nobody enforced or paid attention to them. Anybody who is clean enough not to stink and well-behaved enough not to be a threat or nuisance should be allowed to spend their money anywhere they like.
I have an innate desire to be respectful and see people at least put on decent shoes for an evening.
I have an innate desire to see people stop worrying about superfluous crap like what other people choose to wear or not wear, as long as it's not intruding unavoidably into other people's personal space.
My bare feet are no threat to anybody else. They're cleaner than what most people keep inside their shoes, let alone the shoes themselves. Unlike those of the habitually shod, my feet are not sweaty anaerobic little bacterial stench factories. And I know instantly when I've stepped in something unfortunate and am much more likely to have washed that shit off than any of the oblivious shods tracking everything that's stuck to them all over your flooring.
There is simply no reasonable justification for the nebulous, nonspecific "health regulations" most often mentioned as the excuse for excluding barefooted people from dining spaces.
You don't like my bare feet? Well, I don't much like your trousers, but I'm not so discourteous and disrespectful as to demand that you wear something I like better instead.
The eye-watering, sinus-clogging perfumes that the chronically overdressed seem to find it necessary to drench themselves in, though? The stuff that isn't covered by dress codes regardless of its deleterious effect on everybody else's ability to taste anything? That's just inconsiderate.
posted by flabdablet at 11:34 AM on May 18, 2022 [3 favorites]
I have an innate desire to be respectful and see people at least put on decent shoes for an evening.
I have an innate desire to see people stop worrying about superfluous crap like what other people choose to wear or not wear, as long as it's not intruding unavoidably into other people's personal space.
My bare feet are no threat to anybody else. They're cleaner than what most people keep inside their shoes, let alone the shoes themselves. Unlike those of the habitually shod, my feet are not sweaty anaerobic little bacterial stench factories. And I know instantly when I've stepped in something unfortunate and am much more likely to have washed that shit off than any of the oblivious shods tracking everything that's stuck to them all over your flooring.
There is simply no reasonable justification for the nebulous, nonspecific "health regulations" most often mentioned as the excuse for excluding barefooted people from dining spaces.
You don't like my bare feet? Well, I don't much like your trousers, but I'm not so discourteous and disrespectful as to demand that you wear something I like better instead.
The eye-watering, sinus-clogging perfumes that the chronically overdressed seem to find it necessary to drench themselves in, though? The stuff that isn't covered by dress codes regardless of its deleterious effect on everybody else's ability to taste anything? That's just inconsiderate.
posted by flabdablet at 11:34 AM on May 18, 2022 [3 favorites]
You don't like my bare feet? Well, I don't much like your trousers, but I'm not so discourteous and disrespectful as to demand that you wear something I like better instead.
Lol i guess I never thought of "no pants, no shoes, no service" as so wildly exclusionary, but apparently the 7/11 is much fancier than I realized. Gold-plated slurpees for all!
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 11:55 AM on May 18, 2022 [1 favorite]
Lol i guess I never thought of "no pants, no shoes, no service" as so wildly exclusionary, but apparently the 7/11 is much fancier than I realized. Gold-plated slurpees for all!
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 11:55 AM on May 18, 2022 [1 favorite]
Lot of commenters in this post who never had to dress up for church/temple/mosque when they were kids, I guess.
As a kid I had to dress up for Cubs, and for Scouts, and in uniforms for the boys' choir I happily sung in twice a week for six years and for high school.
Dressing up was bullshit then and it's bullshit now. It's not something a grown-up should ever need to bother with.
If people enjoy playing dress-ups for fun then that's of course completely fine, but playing dress-ups for financial and/or social advantage is corrosive anti-egalitarian toxic garbage and perpetuation of that garbage via enforcement of the "standards" that flow from it is an activity and attitude that merits nothing but contempt.
posted by flabdablet at 11:58 AM on May 18, 2022 [1 favorite]
As a kid I had to dress up for Cubs, and for Scouts, and in uniforms for the boys' choir I happily sung in twice a week for six years and for high school.
Dressing up was bullshit then and it's bullshit now. It's not something a grown-up should ever need to bother with.
If people enjoy playing dress-ups for fun then that's of course completely fine, but playing dress-ups for financial and/or social advantage is corrosive anti-egalitarian toxic garbage and perpetuation of that garbage via enforcement of the "standards" that flow from it is an activity and attitude that merits nothing but contempt.
posted by flabdablet at 11:58 AM on May 18, 2022 [1 favorite]
playing dress-ups for financial and/or social advantage is corrosive anti-egalitarian toxic garbage and perpetuation of that garbage via enforcement of the "standards" that flow from it is an activity and attitude that merits nothing but contempt.
Look I don't even fundamentally disagree but when your line for dressing up is apparently "ever putting on any footwear or bottoms at all" I don't think you're going to get a ton of takers.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 12:05 PM on May 18, 2022 [8 favorites]
Look I don't even fundamentally disagree but when your line for dressing up is apparently "ever putting on any footwear or bottoms at all" I don't think you're going to get a ton of takers.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 12:05 PM on May 18, 2022 [8 favorites]
Okay, things are getting pretty heated here, so I'm just going to cut the Gordian knot and endorse Jerry Seinfeld's idea that we come up with a single "Earth outfit" that every member of the human race wears with no deviations.
Whenever I see a movie with people from the future or another planet, they're all wearing the same thing. They just got together and said "how about we all wear silver jumpsuits with a big V on the chest and matching gloves and boots? Great! That will be our outfit from now on."
posted by fortitude25 at 12:20 PM on May 18, 2022 [2 favorites]
Whenever I see a movie with people from the future or another planet, they're all wearing the same thing. They just got together and said "how about we all wear silver jumpsuits with a big V on the chest and matching gloves and boots? Great! That will be our outfit from now on."
posted by fortitude25 at 12:20 PM on May 18, 2022 [2 favorites]
a single "Earth outfit" that every member of the human race wears with no deviations
xkcd
posted by flabdablet at 12:39 PM on May 18, 2022
xkcd
posted by flabdablet at 12:39 PM on May 18, 2022
I don't think you're going to get a ton of takers
But I don't want my comfy pants taken! I'll keep them, if it's all the same to you.
posted by flabdablet at 12:46 PM on May 18, 2022
But I don't want my comfy pants taken! I'll keep them, if it's all the same to you.
posted by flabdablet at 12:46 PM on May 18, 2022
I apologize for misreading your argument about trousers--it sounded like you were saying that other people were offensive because they wore clothes on their bottom halves, and I was like, "think what you want about feet but absolutely nobody needs to see your jubbly bits while they're trying to eat a hamburger, we live in a goddamn society here."
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 12:50 PM on May 18, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 12:50 PM on May 18, 2022 [1 favorite]
If people enjoy playing dress-ups for fun then that's of course completely fine
That’s why people go out to eat? For fun?
posted by praemunire at 3:37 PM on May 18, 2022 [2 favorites]
That’s why people go out to eat? For fun?
posted by praemunire at 3:37 PM on May 18, 2022 [2 favorites]
Obviously the best route here is for restaurants that have dress codes to make them quite obvious, and not apply them with racism, and for all the other 99.9% of restaurants that don't have dress codes to be the places that people who want to eat can go to.
posted by hippybear at 3:54 PM on May 18, 2022 [4 favorites]
posted by hippybear at 3:54 PM on May 18, 2022 [4 favorites]
“Part of the New Cruelty? I’m afraid so.”
posted by Blueeyed at 4:59 PM on May 18, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by Blueeyed at 4:59 PM on May 18, 2022 [2 favorites]
That’s why people go out to eat? For fun?
Sure. And playing dress-ups while going out to eat is of course perfectly fine as well. Making the game mandatory, though, is contemptible self-aggrandisement in my book and I am absolutely unapologetic about thinking less of anybody who approves of it.
posted by flabdablet at 8:46 PM on May 18, 2022
Sure. And playing dress-ups while going out to eat is of course perfectly fine as well. Making the game mandatory, though, is contemptible self-aggrandisement in my book and I am absolutely unapologetic about thinking less of anybody who approves of it.
posted by flabdablet at 8:46 PM on May 18, 2022
Making the game mandatory, though, is contemptible self-aggrandisement in my book and I am absolutely unapologetic about thinking less of anybody who approves of it.
...good thing that dining out is like, one of the least mandatory things ever, and also that very few restaurants in the world give even a single fuck how dressed up you are??
The problem with a dress code is that even if it's not being applied in a racist way, if it's being enforced, then it's rude. Because manners, as Miss Manners would tell you, are for making people feel comfortable. People feel comfortable when they know what is expected of them in a situation; hence, dress codes. The job of a well-mannered host is to make them feel comfortable whether or not they achieve what is expected of them; hence, the codes should never be actively enforced.
Dress codes should only ever be the suggested donation of the fashion world--honor them if you can, don't if you cannot, with everyone comporting themselves as gracious hosts and guests either way.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 9:14 PM on May 18, 2022 [2 favorites]
...good thing that dining out is like, one of the least mandatory things ever, and also that very few restaurants in the world give even a single fuck how dressed up you are??
The problem with a dress code is that even if it's not being applied in a racist way, if it's being enforced, then it's rude. Because manners, as Miss Manners would tell you, are for making people feel comfortable. People feel comfortable when they know what is expected of them in a situation; hence, dress codes. The job of a well-mannered host is to make them feel comfortable whether or not they achieve what is expected of them; hence, the codes should never be actively enforced.
Dress codes should only ever be the suggested donation of the fashion world--honor them if you can, don't if you cannot, with everyone comporting themselves as gracious hosts and guests either way.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 9:14 PM on May 18, 2022 [2 favorites]
That's not really a dress code in any sense that most people understand it though, that's just a suggestion. Just like a suggested donation isn't a price. Which is a fine way of doing things (it's how the gig clubs that were discussed upthread operate on my experience, for example - they encourage gothing up, but it isn't a mandatory dress code, and you can turn up without and it's not an issue). In fact, it's pretty much how everywhere operates by default - there is some expected default dress style that's probably just emerged organically, but nobody will really bat an eye if you instead turn up in a suit, or a tracksuit. An evening gown might get a batted eye in most places, but that's probably it - you'd still be served, no matter how inappropriate it is.
posted by Dysk at 12:59 AM on May 19, 2022
posted by Dysk at 12:59 AM on May 19, 2022
Is it OK for, say, a goth club to have a dress code?
I went to an after-hours goth club in acid washed jeans, white linen shirt + white undershirt, and desert boots (it was the eighties) on Halloween. The other kids there thought I had the absolute best scary costume.
posted by srboisvert at 5:41 AM on May 19, 2022 [1 favorite]
I went to an after-hours goth club in acid washed jeans, white linen shirt + white undershirt, and desert boots (it was the eighties) on Halloween. The other kids there thought I had the absolute best scary costume.
posted by srboisvert at 5:41 AM on May 19, 2022 [1 favorite]
That's not really a dress code in any sense that most people understand it though, that's just a suggestion.
Uh, I feel like that's what the word "should" was doing in my comment, though?
Yes, almost all places operate this way, and the reason they do is likely because that is the optimum way of making the most people happy and comfortable when they are either hosts or guests in an establishment. The thing a restaurant with a strict, enforced, potentially racist dress code is trying to achieve is not hospitality, whatever else it might be.
Maybe there should be another word for the, what, 6? 10? restaurants in any major city that actually wish to cast actors in each night's performance of Dinner, rather than host guests for a meal...
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 7:16 AM on May 19, 2022
Uh, I feel like that's what the word "should" was doing in my comment, though?
Yes, almost all places operate this way, and the reason they do is likely because that is the optimum way of making the most people happy and comfortable when they are either hosts or guests in an establishment. The thing a restaurant with a strict, enforced, potentially racist dress code is trying to achieve is not hospitality, whatever else it might be.
Maybe there should be another word for the, what, 6? 10? restaurants in any major city that actually wish to cast actors in each night's performance of Dinner, rather than host guests for a meal...
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 7:16 AM on May 19, 2022
good thing that dining out is like, one of the least mandatory things ever, and also that very few restaurants in the world give even a single fuck how dressed up you are??
Have we achieved heated agreement yet? I think we've reached heated agreement.
Yeah, it's a super good thing. But I still wish there were less enforcement of a requirement to be shod, which most Australian pubs and restaurants still impose.
posted by flabdablet at 10:33 AM on May 19, 2022
Have we achieved heated agreement yet? I think we've reached heated agreement.
Yeah, it's a super good thing. But I still wish there were less enforcement of a requirement to be shod, which most Australian pubs and restaurants still impose.
posted by flabdablet at 10:33 AM on May 19, 2022
As an example of changing standards, I like the approach of the Royal Opera House in London:
There is no formal dress code. We want everyone to feel comfortable and able to engage with what is happening on stage, and so we encourage audiences and visitors to wear whatever they feel comfortable wearing. We only ask that you are fully clothed and that your feet are covered.posted by jedicus at 8:37 PM on May 19, 2022
We only ask that you are fully clothed and that your feet are covered.
So, despite apparently it not actually being against the health code here (and not caring about it myself), I can understand why some diners at a restaurant would not want to see bare feet. But why on earth would the opera care if you were wearing shoes? It will be dark, your feet will be hidden under the seat in front of you, and no one will notice. Unlike at the movie theater, the floor isn't gross and sticky, either.
posted by Dip Flash at 8:52 PM on May 19, 2022
So, despite apparently it not actually being against the health code here (and not caring about it myself), I can understand why some diners at a restaurant would not want to see bare feet. But why on earth would the opera care if you were wearing shoes? It will be dark, your feet will be hidden under the seat in front of you, and no one will notice. Unlike at the movie theater, the floor isn't gross and sticky, either.
posted by Dip Flash at 8:52 PM on May 19, 2022
The Seattle Opera in the 1980s I think had such a code - it was something like "we* all dress up for the opera and you might like to, whatever that means for you. For the sake of the opera, something that will fit in the seat and not make much noise or block anyone’s view, and remember you will be sitting still a long time." Oh, there was probably a strong-scents warning too.
* musicians, staff
posted by clew at 10:49 PM on May 19, 2022
* musicians, staff
posted by clew at 10:49 PM on May 19, 2022
I can understand why some diners at a restaurant would not want to see bare feet.
Could you explain it to me? Because despite many years of pondering this, I have been genuinely unable to find any explanation other than reflexive, unexamined prejudice, which is not an attitude I can find any sound ethical basis for pandering to.
It further seems to me that the prejudice involved is persistent, intergenerational, and rooted in wider unexamined prejudice against groups of people who have historically been more likely to go barefoot, including indigenous people, slaves and the poor.
I am keenly aware that as an economically comfortable large cishet male product of Australia's colonizing culture I am in no way as negatively affected by this kind of prejudice as any of those groups, and in no way do I presume to speak for them, nor presume to claim to be oppressed in their name, nor presume to appropriate their experiences as my own. Anti-barefoot prejudice has never been anything more than a minor annoyance in my own life.
But that doesn't make it any less contemptible.
posted by flabdablet at 11:44 PM on May 19, 2022 [1 favorite]
Could you explain it to me? Because despite many years of pondering this, I have been genuinely unable to find any explanation other than reflexive, unexamined prejudice, which is not an attitude I can find any sound ethical basis for pandering to.
It further seems to me that the prejudice involved is persistent, intergenerational, and rooted in wider unexamined prejudice against groups of people who have historically been more likely to go barefoot, including indigenous people, slaves and the poor.
I am keenly aware that as an economically comfortable large cishet male product of Australia's colonizing culture I am in no way as negatively affected by this kind of prejudice as any of those groups, and in no way do I presume to speak for them, nor presume to claim to be oppressed in their name, nor presume to appropriate their experiences as my own. Anti-barefoot prejudice has never been anything more than a minor annoyance in my own life.
But that doesn't make it any less contemptible.
posted by flabdablet at 11:44 PM on May 19, 2022 [1 favorite]
I can certainly imagine that but feel in no way bound to respect it, any more than somebody else should feel bound to respect my own lifelong and deeply visceral loathing for deliberate, conspicuous displays of wealth.
posted by flabdablet at 4:46 AM on May 20, 2022
posted by flabdablet at 4:46 AM on May 20, 2022
If I were eating in a restaurant, and Narendra Modi walked in wearing that insufferable suit with his name woven into all the little pinstripes, would I feel nauseated? Absolutely. Would I draw him to the attention of the restaurant staff and ask him to be removed so that I could eat without feeling grossed out? Absolutely not.
posted by flabdablet at 4:49 AM on May 20, 2022
posted by flabdablet at 4:49 AM on May 20, 2022
Feet touch the ground a lot and tend to get dirtier than the rest of the body.
Shoes touch the ground a lot and tend to get dirtier than the rest of the clothing and typically get much less frequently washed and often smell much worse due to the amount of bacteria and fungi that commonly breed up inside them.
Objecting to feet on this basis, when shoes are held to be acceptable, is clearly no more respectable than any other kind of post-facto rationalization for unexamined prejudice. I am not responsible for the internal horseshit that other people talk themselves into believing.
posted by flabdablet at 4:55 AM on May 20, 2022 [3 favorites]
Shoes touch the ground a lot and tend to get dirtier than the rest of the clothing and typically get much less frequently washed and often smell much worse due to the amount of bacteria and fungi that commonly breed up inside them.
Objecting to feet on this basis, when shoes are held to be acceptable, is clearly no more respectable than any other kind of post-facto rationalization for unexamined prejudice. I am not responsible for the internal horseshit that other people talk themselves into believing.
posted by flabdablet at 4:55 AM on May 20, 2022 [3 favorites]
Only if she had me turfed out of a restaurant for showing up in bare feet, because I am completely capable of keeping my contempt for an attitude inside a box that doesn't leak out onto the people who have that attitude as long as it doesn't make them behave in ways that deserve it.
posted by flabdablet at 5:21 AM on May 20, 2022
posted by flabdablet at 5:21 AM on May 20, 2022
She hasn't earned it, and I don't feel it for her. How could I? I've never, to my knowledge, interacted with her in any way. The suggestion that she has in some way earned my contempt, and the apparent underlying assumption that I do in fact feel contempt for her, are both entirely spurious.
I do feel contempt for irrational prejudices. They are simply not worthy of respect. Everybody would be better off if prejudice against things that don't merit prejudice just went away, almost always including the people who hold those prejudices.
I understand and accept that ridding oneself of contemptible irrational prejudices is hard work and often unsuccessful. I certainly have plenty of my own. I wish I didn't. But they're certainly there, and they're deep-seated, and despite considerable effort on my own part the best I've been able to do with some of them is recognize them, understand where they came from, acknowledge them as irrational and contemptible, and remain conscientious about allowing for them and doing my best to compensate for and work around them.
The only time I'll feel contempt for a person is after seeing them behave consistently in ways that reveal a complete lack of interest in acknowledging and working around their own contemptible prejudices. Tr*mp, for example, I would rate as wholly contemptible.
I'm sure your partner is delightful, and should we ever meet in person I fully expect she would have the grace to keep her reactions to my sartorial and grooming choices to herself, or limit herself to complaining about me to you in the privacy of your own home.
posted by flabdablet at 5:59 AM on May 20, 2022
I do feel contempt for irrational prejudices. They are simply not worthy of respect. Everybody would be better off if prejudice against things that don't merit prejudice just went away, almost always including the people who hold those prejudices.
I understand and accept that ridding oneself of contemptible irrational prejudices is hard work and often unsuccessful. I certainly have plenty of my own. I wish I didn't. But they're certainly there, and they're deep-seated, and despite considerable effort on my own part the best I've been able to do with some of them is recognize them, understand where they came from, acknowledge them as irrational and contemptible, and remain conscientious about allowing for them and doing my best to compensate for and work around them.
The only time I'll feel contempt for a person is after seeing them behave consistently in ways that reveal a complete lack of interest in acknowledging and working around their own contemptible prejudices. Tr*mp, for example, I would rate as wholly contemptible.
I'm sure your partner is delightful, and should we ever meet in person I fully expect she would have the grace to keep her reactions to my sartorial and grooming choices to herself, or limit herself to complaining about me to you in the privacy of your own home.
posted by flabdablet at 5:59 AM on May 20, 2022
Could you explain it to me? Because despite many years of pondering this, I have been genuinely unable to find any explanation other than reflexive, unexamined prejudice, which is not an attitude I can find any sound ethical basis for pandering to.
There are plenty of people who find bare feet "icky." It isn't logical, but it's common, so hence I can understand that this feeling exists. I'm not defending it, but I'm also not going to pretend it isn't a thing. (There are plenty of people who find the Five Fingers-style toe shoes icky or weird, too -- we have a lot of hang ups about feet as a society.)
Just like a lot of other dress-code stuff, bans on shoes points back to explicitly exclusionary practices (i.e., keeping out the wrong sorts of people). It wasn't all that long ago in the US (and many other now-wealthy nations) that shoes were a major marker of poverty, like teeth are now. You couldn't attend school without shoes, so someone might carry their shoes to and from school, walking barefoot, to avoid wear and tear on the shoes, for example; shoes would be shared among children in a family for the same reason. So if you banned bare feet, you were de facto banning poor people.
posted by Dip Flash at 6:28 AM on May 20, 2022 [1 favorite]
There are plenty of people who find bare feet "icky." It isn't logical, but it's common, so hence I can understand that this feeling exists. I'm not defending it, but I'm also not going to pretend it isn't a thing. (There are plenty of people who find the Five Fingers-style toe shoes icky or weird, too -- we have a lot of hang ups about feet as a society.)
Just like a lot of other dress-code stuff, bans on shoes points back to explicitly exclusionary practices (i.e., keeping out the wrong sorts of people). It wasn't all that long ago in the US (and many other now-wealthy nations) that shoes were a major marker of poverty, like teeth are now. You couldn't attend school without shoes, so someone might carry their shoes to and from school, walking barefoot, to avoid wear and tear on the shoes, for example; shoes would be shared among children in a family for the same reason. So if you banned bare feet, you were de facto banning poor people.
posted by Dip Flash at 6:28 AM on May 20, 2022 [1 favorite]
Again no, I'm taking a further, measuredly argued position against the reasonableness, appropriateness or justifiability of the gross-out response itself and hence the ethical soundness of being expected or even required to pander to it, not against the respect due to people afflicted by it.
You say instinctual avoidance, I say unexamined prejudice; tomayto, tomahto. The only animals I've ever met that have shown any kind of detectably negative reaction to my bare feet have been H. sapiens so I'm completely dubious about any universal biological basis for a distinction in this case. It's clear to me that a gross-out response to bare feet is a learned response and therefore susceptible to unlearning, and it's also clear to me that your "explanation" didn't cover any ground I'd not already said I understood.
Note particularly that I am pointedly not cracking the sads about having had my clean and well maintained feet implicitly put in the same category as corpses, open wounds, feces and stagnant water, despite the ease with which this could be regarded as deliberately provocative.
But even genuine phobias are a contemptible nuisance; were they not, they wouldn't be worth working to get rid of. I have personally got rid of one major one (a paralyzing fear of spiders) but have several others that I live with because they seem unlikely to kill me. They are still a complete if occasional pain in my arse that I'd be better off without. I honestly cannot think of any sound reason why anybody who has a phobia (as distinct from a reasonable, well-founded fear) would actually value it.
The same contempt does not apply to people afflicted by phobias. If the distinction is not now clear to you, I'll need to leave it to others to clarify at this point.
posted by flabdablet at 7:54 AM on May 20, 2022 [1 favorite]
You say instinctual avoidance, I say unexamined prejudice; tomayto, tomahto. The only animals I've ever met that have shown any kind of detectably negative reaction to my bare feet have been H. sapiens so I'm completely dubious about any universal biological basis for a distinction in this case. It's clear to me that a gross-out response to bare feet is a learned response and therefore susceptible to unlearning, and it's also clear to me that your "explanation" didn't cover any ground I'd not already said I understood.
Note particularly that I am pointedly not cracking the sads about having had my clean and well maintained feet implicitly put in the same category as corpses, open wounds, feces and stagnant water, despite the ease with which this could be regarded as deliberately provocative.
But even genuine phobias are a contemptible nuisance; were they not, they wouldn't be worth working to get rid of. I have personally got rid of one major one (a paralyzing fear of spiders) but have several others that I live with because they seem unlikely to kill me. They are still a complete if occasional pain in my arse that I'd be better off without. I honestly cannot think of any sound reason why anybody who has a phobia (as distinct from a reasonable, well-founded fear) would actually value it.
The same contempt does not apply to people afflicted by phobias. If the distinction is not now clear to you, I'll need to leave it to others to clarify at this point.
posted by flabdablet at 7:54 AM on May 20, 2022 [1 favorite]
Is this just a feet thing? I can't tell where the distinction would go with this line of argumentation between feet and clothing of any sort. See: all of the anti-masker "it's underwear for your face!" junk.
I'm sure your feet are very tidily maintained. But from a public health standpoint, what's the expected cleanliness of a bare-assed public?
posted by CrystalDave at 8:39 AM on May 20, 2022 [2 favorites]
I'm sure your feet are very tidily maintained. But from a public health standpoint, what's the expected cleanliness of a bare-assed public?
posted by CrystalDave at 8:39 AM on May 20, 2022 [2 favorites]
what's the expected cleanliness of a bare-assed public?
If we ever manage to dismantle the patriarchy enough and normalize personal responsibility for personal behaviour to the extent that it isn't universally expected that a nude women in public would be a spectacle and a target for the unwanted attentions of predatory men, or that anyone walking about with a body that didn't look like it had just been photoshopped would be a target for assorted kinds of abuse, then I'm sure we'll work it out.
I've seen clear indications that such a future might one day be feasible where climate permits. It would be a pretty good future. But since I don't expect to see it spread beyond clothes-optional hippie festivals within my remaining lifetime, baby steps will just have to do.
posted by flabdablet at 9:07 AM on May 20, 2022
If we ever manage to dismantle the patriarchy enough and normalize personal responsibility for personal behaviour to the extent that it isn't universally expected that a nude women in public would be a spectacle and a target for the unwanted attentions of predatory men, or that anyone walking about with a body that didn't look like it had just been photoshopped would be a target for assorted kinds of abuse, then I'm sure we'll work it out.
I've seen clear indications that such a future might one day be feasible where climate permits. It would be a pretty good future. But since I don't expect to see it spread beyond clothes-optional hippie festivals within my remaining lifetime, baby steps will just have to do.
posted by flabdablet at 9:07 AM on May 20, 2022
Nudists already have their own spaces where they can follow their own dress code (or "undress" code, I guess?). Freedom of assembly is a wonderful thing.
posted by Artifice_Eternity at 9:46 AM on May 20, 2022
posted by Artifice_Eternity at 9:46 AM on May 20, 2022
Some nudist spaces attempt to enforce the non-wearing of clothes, which to my way of thinking is just a spectacular bit of point-missing even if it is held to be necessary to keep out the creepers. Creepers gonna creep whether they're clad or they're not, and they are the problem, not what people dress themselves in or don't.
Similarly, restaurants requiring patrons to adopt particular modes of dress is no guarantee at all that their patrons' dining experience will not be marred by the behaviour of some particularly obnoxious boor. In fact, to the extent that fancy dress does signal wealth, attempts to exclude such particularly obnoxious boors as are willing to adopt that mode of dress might be even more potentially consequential to the house's bottom line and therefore less likely to be done effectively.
posted by flabdablet at 10:40 AM on May 20, 2022
Similarly, restaurants requiring patrons to adopt particular modes of dress is no guarantee at all that their patrons' dining experience will not be marred by the behaviour of some particularly obnoxious boor. In fact, to the extent that fancy dress does signal wealth, attempts to exclude such particularly obnoxious boors as are willing to adopt that mode of dress might be even more potentially consequential to the house's bottom line and therefore less likely to be done effectively.
posted by flabdablet at 10:40 AM on May 20, 2022
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