Let Kids Be
May 26, 2022 5:58 AM Subscribe
Wil Wheaton clearly, calmly, and with patient dignity describes again how his parents forced him to labor as an actor. (CW: narcissistic parenting, child abuse, suicidal ideation.)
This post was deleted for the following reason: Poster's Request -- Brandon Blatcher
I think the world should probably apologize to him first.
posted by mhoye at 6:51 AM on May 26, 2022 [16 favorites]
posted by mhoye at 6:51 AM on May 26, 2022 [16 favorites]
my understanding is that he has a lovely family of his own now and has made a lot of progress on his mental health, so there is a “good ending” as it were.
Yeah, but healing from this kind of abuse and trauma takes time and may never really "end". The family he has now is probably what gave him the strength to finally process what happened to him in the past. Recovering from this kind of abuse never really "ends", in the sense that I think you're implying; he's better able to cope, but this kind of abuse will continue to echo again and again and again.
Agree with you, though, that he is in a better place than he was then. Which is actually why he's even able to speak about this now.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 7:13 AM on May 26, 2022 [19 favorites]
Yeah, but healing from this kind of abuse and trauma takes time and may never really "end". The family he has now is probably what gave him the strength to finally process what happened to him in the past. Recovering from this kind of abuse never really "ends", in the sense that I think you're implying; he's better able to cope, but this kind of abuse will continue to echo again and again and again.
Agree with you, though, that he is in a better place than he was then. Which is actually why he's even able to speak about this now.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 7:13 AM on May 26, 2022 [19 favorites]
Some people -- although no one with power so far -- have been floating the idea of phasing out child actors entirely, now that CGI has advanced. The first time I heard it, I rejected it out of hand, since after all child actors can be well-treated and grow up happy, like Mara Wilson. But even Mara Wilson has stories about shit that shouldn't have happened to her.
Professional acting is labor. It follows that a child's acting is child labor. Whatever accommodations and laws we make to permit it are just trying to square a circle. I don't know that I'm ready to accept that, emotionally, because my first reaction to even typing that is "what about Stranger Things?!" and "I was dying to be on TV when I was little!" (There was no danger of that. My parents knew better.) Still, it's an idea worth sitting with.
posted by Countess Elena at 7:34 AM on May 26, 2022 [12 favorites]
Professional acting is labor. It follows that a child's acting is child labor. Whatever accommodations and laws we make to permit it are just trying to square a circle. I don't know that I'm ready to accept that, emotionally, because my first reaction to even typing that is "what about Stranger Things?!" and "I was dying to be on TV when I was little!" (There was no danger of that. My parents knew better.) Still, it's an idea worth sitting with.
posted by Countess Elena at 7:34 AM on May 26, 2022 [12 favorites]
He radiates total sincerity and kindness. The victory it represents that he survived the Hollywood child star machine, not only to become a functioning, happy adult but a recognizably normal and relatable human being is just stunning.
He's a basically regular and nice person. Maybe that seems a modest outcome and maybe the low grade sleaziness he had to endure buckets of is easier for us to be lazy and read as absurd instead of traumatic. But it was real. And the same machinery that drove many of his peers to early deaths, addiction, even crime... certainly to odd and damaged lives... he escaped it all to become a pleasant family-oriented person who controls his own life. It's an achievement.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 7:35 AM on May 26, 2022 [31 favorites]
He's a basically regular and nice person. Maybe that seems a modest outcome and maybe the low grade sleaziness he had to endure buckets of is easier for us to be lazy and read as absurd instead of traumatic. But it was real. And the same machinery that drove many of his peers to early deaths, addiction, even crime... certainly to odd and damaged lives... he escaped it all to become a pleasant family-oriented person who controls his own life. It's an achievement.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 7:35 AM on May 26, 2022 [31 favorites]
I think back on all the hate that the Internet -- including people on Metafilter -- directed towards Wil when he was on Star Trek. And how now that we realize that the writers sucked, the set was toxic, and he didn't want to be there, that hate seems terrifically cruel and misdirected.
Anyway, I hope that the next time you wanna pile on someone that you'll pause for a moment, think about Wil, and consider that maybe that person you don't like is doing the best they can.
posted by dorothy hawk at 7:36 AM on May 26, 2022 [119 favorites]
Anyway, I hope that the next time you wanna pile on someone that you'll pause for a moment, think about Wil, and consider that maybe that person you don't like is doing the best they can.
posted by dorothy hawk at 7:36 AM on May 26, 2022 [119 favorites]
>He radiates total sincerity and kindness.
This is absolutely true. I've bumped into him in person a few times tangentially (once literally bumped into him, on a dance floor) at cons, and he (and Anne) both are wonderful people. We are fortunate that he still gives back to the world even after being treated like such crap so often.
posted by mrgoldenbrown at 7:48 AM on May 26, 2022 [14 favorites]
This is absolutely true. I've bumped into him in person a few times tangentially (once literally bumped into him, on a dance floor) at cons, and he (and Anne) both are wonderful people. We are fortunate that he still gives back to the world even after being treated like such crap so often.
posted by mrgoldenbrown at 7:48 AM on May 26, 2022 [14 favorites]
Something Daniel Radcliffe said in an interview once might address the "how do some child actors grow up normal and some don't" question - "everyone asks me how I'm still normal; if you want the answer, just look ten feet to my left, and you'll see my parents keeping an eye on everything."
Some child actors have shits for parents. Some don't. Dan's parents checked in with him every year about whether he still wanted to do Harry Potter, and if he'd ever said "no" they would have been "okay, cool." If they heard anything about him being a jerkoff onset they'd make him apologize (there's this great story from the first film about him and Emma Watson stealing Robbie Coltrane's cell phone and reprogramming it so everything was in Turkish, and when his parents found out they made him write a letter of apology).
And some child actors have shits for co-stars and directors and some don't. Mara Wilson loves to talk about how kind Danny DeVito was when he was directing Matilda - I still love the story about how when she was feeling self-conscious about doing the dance scene from that film, DeVito decreed that he would make it an all-hands-on-deck dance party so she wasn't dancing alone - and so when they were filming, DeVito was dancing offscreen, and so were the boom mike guys, and the camera guys, and everyone else on set.
There are responsible ways to work with kids. There are also union rules about working with kids; when I was working on a production of Medea, we had two kids with small roles, and there were some very specific union rules in place about how long they could rehearse and what we could make them do, and how there also had to be a Designated Child Guardian on hand for each and every rehearsal or performance they were in. And that was just off-off-Broadway theater.
But as with any rule, nefarious and selfish people seem especially good at finding the loopholes they can exploit.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 7:58 AM on May 26, 2022 [90 favorites]
Some child actors have shits for parents. Some don't. Dan's parents checked in with him every year about whether he still wanted to do Harry Potter, and if he'd ever said "no" they would have been "okay, cool." If they heard anything about him being a jerkoff onset they'd make him apologize (there's this great story from the first film about him and Emma Watson stealing Robbie Coltrane's cell phone and reprogramming it so everything was in Turkish, and when his parents found out they made him write a letter of apology).
And some child actors have shits for co-stars and directors and some don't. Mara Wilson loves to talk about how kind Danny DeVito was when he was directing Matilda - I still love the story about how when she was feeling self-conscious about doing the dance scene from that film, DeVito decreed that he would make it an all-hands-on-deck dance party so she wasn't dancing alone - and so when they were filming, DeVito was dancing offscreen, and so were the boom mike guys, and the camera guys, and everyone else on set.
There are responsible ways to work with kids. There are also union rules about working with kids; when I was working on a production of Medea, we had two kids with small roles, and there were some very specific union rules in place about how long they could rehearse and what we could make them do, and how there also had to be a Designated Child Guardian on hand for each and every rehearsal or performance they were in. And that was just off-off-Broadway theater.
But as with any rule, nefarious and selfish people seem especially good at finding the loopholes they can exploit.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 7:58 AM on May 26, 2022 [90 favorites]
I've been listening to his book "Still Just a Geek" (which is about this exact story) as an audiobook and that turns out to be a mistake. The format, of a text with multiple annotations, is really challenging in audio format. Often it's difficult to distinguish the text from the footnotes, and a lot of it is redundant which is fine in print, where you can skim, but awkward in an audiobook.
No criticism on the book itself, which is brave and honest, but just a heads-up for anyone considering different book formats available.
posted by Zumbador at 8:01 AM on May 26, 2022 [2 favorites]
No criticism on the book itself, which is brave and honest, but just a heads-up for anyone considering different book formats available.
posted by Zumbador at 8:01 AM on May 26, 2022 [2 favorites]
...children can grow up in the same house and have profoundly different experiences with their parents.
QFT
My mother, while not abusive in the traditional sense, was a narcissist and knowingly made personal choices that had profound negative effects on my physical and emotional health, that I'm still unwinding as a mid-fifty year old. I've been estranged from her since 2019, but really not had a relationship for 10 years. My (younger) brother did not have the same experience. He talked with her every other week or so.
She passed away recently, and when we were together in the hospital, my brother, upset, said "I'm going to really miss talking to her". My first thought, unsaid, was "why?". I recognize that we had different experiences, but it sometimes catches me off guard just how different.
posted by Gorgik at 8:02 AM on May 26, 2022 [29 favorites]
QFT
My mother, while not abusive in the traditional sense, was a narcissist and knowingly made personal choices that had profound negative effects on my physical and emotional health, that I'm still unwinding as a mid-fifty year old. I've been estranged from her since 2019, but really not had a relationship for 10 years. My (younger) brother did not have the same experience. He talked with her every other week or so.
She passed away recently, and when we were together in the hospital, my brother, upset, said "I'm going to really miss talking to her". My first thought, unsaid, was "why?". I recognize that we had different experiences, but it sometimes catches me off guard just how different.
posted by Gorgik at 8:02 AM on May 26, 2022 [29 favorites]
If Wil Wheaton's words have familiar sad echoes with your own family experience, please consider reading : Adult Children of Emotionally Immature Parents: How to Heal from Distant, Rejecting, or Self-Involved Parents.
It made a huge difference in my life, providing answers to questions that I'd had for years.
posted by leotrotsky at 8:02 AM on May 26, 2022 [31 favorites]
It made a huge difference in my life, providing answers to questions that I'd had for years.
posted by leotrotsky at 8:02 AM on May 26, 2022 [31 favorites]
Whew. I'm remembering an on-again-off-again friend from my childhood who was a local child star (think "played Little Orphan Annie") and had an absolutely awful stage mom. It messed her up pretty bad, as did general corrosive envy from her agemates.
I'm also remembering little me, who got driven by her relentlessly grasping parents in directions she didn't particularly want to go, but tried to go anyway because it seemed the only path to -- not even love, just being let be and not run roughshod over.
Thanks for the book rec, @leotrotsky. I'll take a look.
posted by humbug at 8:26 AM on May 26, 2022 [3 favorites]
I'm also remembering little me, who got driven by her relentlessly grasping parents in directions she didn't particularly want to go, but tried to go anyway because it seemed the only path to -- not even love, just being let be and not run roughshod over.
Thanks for the book rec, @leotrotsky. I'll take a look.
posted by humbug at 8:26 AM on May 26, 2022 [3 favorites]
I had parents that were so on the opposite side of stage parents that they (in the middle of a divorce, half + oblivious to my adolescent peregrinations) literally did not notice that I was forging signatures and going to auditions at 14 until I actually got a callback and needed someone to help me operate the legal framework required for agent/casting director.
I didn't end up getting the part(s) and the only time I think I saw my parents more delighted/relieved was when I admitted that I didn't think I was going to end up being a a Drama major in college after all.
posted by thivaia at 8:34 AM on May 26, 2022 [9 favorites]
I didn't end up getting the part(s) and the only time I think I saw my parents more delighted/relieved was when I admitted that I didn't think I was going to end up being a a Drama major in college after all.
posted by thivaia at 8:34 AM on May 26, 2022 [9 favorites]
Some people -- although no one with power so far -- have been floating the idea of phasing out child actors entirely, now that CGI has advanced.
I have a good friend who works in the biz, fairly high up, including lots of face to face stuff with kids (and some seriously fucked up parents). His take isn't so much that child actors should be phased out but that they should be consigned to anonymity. That is, until they reach "age of maturity", nobody gets to know their name or where they're from, they don't do interviews, they don't get their faces plastered across magazines (or the interwebs) ... and so on. His point. Remove fame from the picture. With a vengeance. He figures a lot of the pathology would disappear with it.
posted by philip-random at 8:40 AM on May 26, 2022 [64 favorites]
I have a good friend who works in the biz, fairly high up, including lots of face to face stuff with kids (and some seriously fucked up parents). His take isn't so much that child actors should be phased out but that they should be consigned to anonymity. That is, until they reach "age of maturity", nobody gets to know their name or where they're from, they don't do interviews, they don't get their faces plastered across magazines (or the interwebs) ... and so on. His point. Remove fame from the picture. With a vengeance. He figures a lot of the pathology would disappear with it.
posted by philip-random at 8:40 AM on May 26, 2022 [64 favorites]
Thanks for this post, just ordered his book. Much more of a fan of Wil the person than any of his specific work, somehow, though his work is terrific. (He's been great lately creating an enjoyable support role to all of the new Trek series, in his Ready Room show.)
He radiates total sincerity and kindness.
Very true, to the degree that it kind of undermined his recent brief appearance in the Picard S2 finale...like, he came across as too earnest, somehow? But if that's a criticism, it's a criticism I'd love to have said about me, because it speaks so well of the person. His comment in the video about surviving persistent suicidal impulses as a teenager (because he simply didn't know how to do it) was devastating to hear. No child should ever experience that.
posted by LooseFilter at 8:42 AM on May 26, 2022 [5 favorites]
He radiates total sincerity and kindness.
Very true, to the degree that it kind of undermined his recent brief appearance in the Picard S2 finale...like, he came across as too earnest, somehow? But if that's a criticism, it's a criticism I'd love to have said about me, because it speaks so well of the person. His comment in the video about surviving persistent suicidal impulses as a teenager (because he simply didn't know how to do it) was devastating to hear. No child should ever experience that.
posted by LooseFilter at 8:42 AM on May 26, 2022 [5 favorites]
Please keep in mind that these parents aren't just in the media business. I went out with a guy once whose narcissists were so dedicated to the idea of him becoming a surgeon that they had him interning in a morgue when he was fifteen years old. No regard for what he wanted, or the long term damage it would do, or him begging not to go, just... yeah. A morgue.
For me it was writing.
At the heart of this madness is the belief that your kids aren't human beings with their own tastes, vocations, preferences, and talents. They're yours to use as you please, and they'll come out the way you want them to or they'll regret it.
If you're dealing with any of this and you don't know the term Complex PTSD, do yourself a favor and check out Complex PTSD: From Surviving To Thriving, by Pete Walker.
posted by MrVisible at 8:44 AM on May 26, 2022 [37 favorites]
For me it was writing.
At the heart of this madness is the belief that your kids aren't human beings with their own tastes, vocations, preferences, and talents. They're yours to use as you please, and they'll come out the way you want them to or they'll regret it.
If you're dealing with any of this and you don't know the term Complex PTSD, do yourself a favor and check out Complex PTSD: From Surviving To Thriving, by Pete Walker.
posted by MrVisible at 8:44 AM on May 26, 2022 [37 favorites]
If you're dealing with any of this and you don't know the term Complex PTSD, do yourself a favor and check out Complex PTSD: From Surviving To Thriving, by Pete Walker.
QFT QFT QFT
Finding this term, this book, and thus the right therapist, has been life-changing for my spouse.
posted by LooseFilter at 8:49 AM on May 26, 2022 [12 favorites]
QFT QFT QFT
Finding this term, this book, and thus the right therapist, has been life-changing for my spouse.
posted by LooseFilter at 8:49 AM on May 26, 2022 [12 favorites]
And how now that we realize that the writers sucked, the set was toxic
I have his book Memories of the Future, which is a collection of columns he wrote re-watching TNG, and he does make the point that the writers made Wesley difficult to like. But Wheaton has also consistently referred to the cast as beloved family.
posted by Gelatin at 8:52 AM on May 26, 2022 [9 favorites]
I have his book Memories of the Future, which is a collection of columns he wrote re-watching TNG, and he does make the point that the writers made Wesley difficult to like. But Wheaton has also consistently referred to the cast as beloved family.
posted by Gelatin at 8:52 AM on May 26, 2022 [9 favorites]
It's really good of him to put this out into the world so others could benefit from his experience. He definitely did not have to, he certainly owes the public nothing. I hope that other people who see their stories reflected can find some help.
posted by bleep at 8:56 AM on May 26, 2022 [6 favorites]
posted by bleep at 8:56 AM on May 26, 2022 [6 favorites]
...children can grow up in the same house and have profoundly different experiences with their parents.
I find it sadly easy to see how that can happen. In a way, I guess, it signals that on some level, buried however deeply, these parents know how they're wronging their child. So the child they wronged is the child that makes them feel bad, makes them feel guilty. But they can't face the guilt, so they need to find other justifications for the bad feeling; they need to find fault with the child, so they don't have to see the fault with themselves. So they keep wronging that child.
The younger silbling is a fresh start, the child left undamaged - an unspoilt canvas for their projections, an opportunity to reinvent themselves as good parents. The relationship is less strained, feels more rewarding, so they keep nurturing it. This child can love them easily, without reproach, without scars from the past, this child is the proof that they're good parents after all. They are as heavily invested in that relationship as they can possibly be, to protect their self-image.
posted by sohalt at 9:08 AM on May 26, 2022 [15 favorites]
@MrVisible yes; for me it was nth languages, which I was not nearly as talented at as my parents wanted to believe. And grad school. Lordy, lordy, grad school.
The common factor is the demanding enmeshment, not the area of endeavor.
posted by humbug at 9:11 AM on May 26, 2022 [2 favorites]
The common factor is the demanding enmeshment, not the area of endeavor.
posted by humbug at 9:11 AM on May 26, 2022 [2 favorites]
But Wheaton has also consistently referred to the cast as beloved family.
Oh wow - I'm now thinking back to what we also know of Patrick Stewart's childhood, and to the things that Wil's said about how wonderfully and compassionately Patrick treated him, and now I'm wondering if there was some subconscious "wounded children recognizing each other" thing going on.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 9:12 AM on May 26, 2022 [30 favorites]
Oh wow - I'm now thinking back to what we also know of Patrick Stewart's childhood, and to the things that Wil's said about how wonderfully and compassionately Patrick treated him, and now I'm wondering if there was some subconscious "wounded children recognizing each other" thing going on.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 9:12 AM on May 26, 2022 [30 favorites]
His take isn't so much that child actors should be phased out but that they should be consigned to anonymity.
That’s a smart idea. I wonder if that’s what they’re trying to do with the girls on Bluey, who aren’t credited.
posted by Countess Elena at 9:25 AM on May 26, 2022 [9 favorites]
That’s a smart idea. I wonder if that’s what they’re trying to do with the girls on Bluey, who aren’t credited.
posted by Countess Elena at 9:25 AM on May 26, 2022 [9 favorites]
I really want to hug him. Is that weird? I mean obviously it would be weird. But SOMEBODY hug him.
Literally my first thought on reading the title of the post.
Then imagining a large, warm and and friendly group at a con mobbing him with a huge group hug.
Though from what I've read about him and his feelings about too much public attention he'd probably find this unnerving or terrifying. I would, too, and I've never had to deal with unhinged fans or sitting at an autograph table or anything.
Hugs if you want them, Wil. You're a good person.
posted by loquacious at 9:28 AM on May 26, 2022 [6 favorites]
Literally my first thought on reading the title of the post.
Then imagining a large, warm and and friendly group at a con mobbing him with a huge group hug.
Though from what I've read about him and his feelings about too much public attention he'd probably find this unnerving or terrifying. I would, too, and I've never had to deal with unhinged fans or sitting at an autograph table or anything.
Hugs if you want them, Wil. You're a good person.
posted by loquacious at 9:28 AM on May 26, 2022 [6 favorites]
I wonder if that’s what they’re trying to do with the girls on Bluey, who aren’t credited.
This is exactly why they do it.
posted by Etrigan at 9:28 AM on May 26, 2022 [19 favorites]
This is exactly why they do it.
posted by Etrigan at 9:28 AM on May 26, 2022 [19 favorites]
There are responsible ways to work with kids. There are also union rules about working with kids
And laws. This system has evolved over time, often in response to bad situations, going all the way back to the Jackie Coogan law.
In a less formal sense, people have evolved better practices for dealing with potentially difficult situations as they've learned. (Who ever heard of an intimacy coordinator until relatively recently?) And this is especially true of working with children.
I can't speak to narcissistic stage parents, but back in my genre media journalism days (another life), I was on the set of Zack Snyder's Dawn of the Dead remake. If you've seen the film, you'll recall there's a little girl at the beginning playing Sarah Polley's neighbor. This was Hannah Lochner, who would have been 10 or 11 at the time. She has a nice moment with Polley's character when she comes home from work in the evening. Then in the morning, she's the first zombie we see. She's had her lips ripped away so she's all blood and exposed teeth, and she attacks and turns Polley's husband. It's pretty intense.
I was talking with the makeup guy, Dave Anderson, who you'll see if you follow that link has done a LOT of horror makeup and prosthetic work over the years. And I asked him about doing stuff like that with kids. He had a lot to say about how carefully he worked with this girl to be sensitive to what she was experiencing and how she looked with the prosthetic. He always made sure she knew exactly what was going to happen, and reinforced that it was all make believe etc. He told people not to stare at her, not to say stuff like "Oh, wow, you look so gross!" etc. They blocked out mirrors on the set for the initial rehearsals so she wouldn't see herself. He took it really seriously. And eventually she got over being creeped out and saw herself and decided it was kind of cool and all was well.
He learned stuff like that the hard way, though. He told me of an earlier experience working on the film version of Stephen King's Pet Sematary. There you'll recall, the monster is a toddler who's been brought back from the dead, which goes about as well as you'd expect. The kid, Gage, was played by Miko Hughes, who was three (!!) at the time. And at one point, Gage takes out Fred Gwynne's character by slashing his ankle with a knife. Then Gwynne falls to the floor and Gage rips his throat out with his teeth.
For that shot, they had a prosthetic on Gwynne's throat for the kid to grab with his teeth, and they showed him it was make believe and Fred Gwynne, who by all accounts was a really great guy, told him it was okay, and he wasn't going to hurt him, etc. So they rehearsed it a little, without blood because they didn't want to have to clean up the set and replace costumes and all that for every practice run.
But on the real shot, Anderson was the guy running the blood pump. And you can see what's coming. He said he didn't know why it didn't occur to anyone. But this time, when the kid goes for it, Anderson hits the pump, and suddenly there's fake blood everywhere, and the kid just loses it, completely freaks out. Anderson said he felt like shit, and was like, "I never want to feel like this again," and he'd always been extra careful with kids after that.
(FWIW, Hughes seems to have gotten over it and gone on to have a very extensive career both in front of and behind the camera.)
So yeah, there are best practices for working with kids, and in a lot of cases they've been learned through rough experience, and they shouldn't be ignored.
posted by Naberius at 10:05 AM on May 26, 2022 [37 favorites]
And laws. This system has evolved over time, often in response to bad situations, going all the way back to the Jackie Coogan law.
In a less formal sense, people have evolved better practices for dealing with potentially difficult situations as they've learned. (Who ever heard of an intimacy coordinator until relatively recently?) And this is especially true of working with children.
I can't speak to narcissistic stage parents, but back in my genre media journalism days (another life), I was on the set of Zack Snyder's Dawn of the Dead remake. If you've seen the film, you'll recall there's a little girl at the beginning playing Sarah Polley's neighbor. This was Hannah Lochner, who would have been 10 or 11 at the time. She has a nice moment with Polley's character when she comes home from work in the evening. Then in the morning, she's the first zombie we see. She's had her lips ripped away so she's all blood and exposed teeth, and she attacks and turns Polley's husband. It's pretty intense.
I was talking with the makeup guy, Dave Anderson, who you'll see if you follow that link has done a LOT of horror makeup and prosthetic work over the years. And I asked him about doing stuff like that with kids. He had a lot to say about how carefully he worked with this girl to be sensitive to what she was experiencing and how she looked with the prosthetic. He always made sure she knew exactly what was going to happen, and reinforced that it was all make believe etc. He told people not to stare at her, not to say stuff like "Oh, wow, you look so gross!" etc. They blocked out mirrors on the set for the initial rehearsals so she wouldn't see herself. He took it really seriously. And eventually she got over being creeped out and saw herself and decided it was kind of cool and all was well.
He learned stuff like that the hard way, though. He told me of an earlier experience working on the film version of Stephen King's Pet Sematary. There you'll recall, the monster is a toddler who's been brought back from the dead, which goes about as well as you'd expect. The kid, Gage, was played by Miko Hughes, who was three (!!) at the time. And at one point, Gage takes out Fred Gwynne's character by slashing his ankle with a knife. Then Gwynne falls to the floor and Gage rips his throat out with his teeth.
For that shot, they had a prosthetic on Gwynne's throat for the kid to grab with his teeth, and they showed him it was make believe and Fred Gwynne, who by all accounts was a really great guy, told him it was okay, and he wasn't going to hurt him, etc. So they rehearsed it a little, without blood because they didn't want to have to clean up the set and replace costumes and all that for every practice run.
But on the real shot, Anderson was the guy running the blood pump. And you can see what's coming. He said he didn't know why it didn't occur to anyone. But this time, when the kid goes for it, Anderson hits the pump, and suddenly there's fake blood everywhere, and the kid just loses it, completely freaks out. Anderson said he felt like shit, and was like, "I never want to feel like this again," and he'd always been extra careful with kids after that.
(FWIW, Hughes seems to have gotten over it and gone on to have a very extensive career both in front of and behind the camera.)
So yeah, there are best practices for working with kids, and in a lot of cases they've been learned through rough experience, and they shouldn't be ignored.
posted by Naberius at 10:05 AM on May 26, 2022 [37 favorites]
If you've seen the film, you'll recall there's a little girl at the beginning playing Sarah Polley's neighbor.
I remember that scene better than I do most of the movie save for Matt Frewer's "you want every single second" moment. I confess it never occurred to me the lengths the filmmakers would go -- or might not -- to make the experience easy for the young actor, but I expect I'll always wonder in about it in the future.
posted by Gelatin at 10:16 AM on May 26, 2022 [3 favorites]
I remember that scene better than I do most of the movie save for Matt Frewer's "you want every single second" moment. I confess it never occurred to me the lengths the filmmakers would go -- or might not -- to make the experience easy for the young actor, but I expect I'll always wonder in about it in the future.
posted by Gelatin at 10:16 AM on May 26, 2022 [3 favorites]
I can’t think of Wil Wheaton without thinking about how he was the very first person I ever saw the internet tell to kill himself. It wasn’t a throwaway comment on a message board, either; someone had gone through the trouble of creating a web page dedicated to telling Wil Wheaton to kill himself.
At the time I didn’t think much of it; it just felt like how the internet was at the time. He was a teenager when that site was active; I don’t want to think too hard about how that must have felt.
posted by Parasite Unseen at 10:19 AM on May 26, 2022 [32 favorites]
At the time I didn’t think much of it; it just felt like how the internet was at the time. He was a teenager when that site was active; I don’t want to think too hard about how that must have felt.
posted by Parasite Unseen at 10:19 AM on May 26, 2022 [32 favorites]
I don’t want to think too hard about how that must have felt.
...Honestly, I think that reluctance to think about how others are feeling is one of the reasons the world is in general the shitstorm place it is. (Apologies for making it sound like I'm singling you out on that - I'm not, I'm thinking we could ALL strive for more empathy in the world. Myself included.)
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 10:38 AM on May 26, 2022 [13 favorites]
...Honestly, I think that reluctance to think about how others are feeling is one of the reasons the world is in general the shitstorm place it is. (Apologies for making it sound like I'm singling you out on that - I'm not, I'm thinking we could ALL strive for more empathy in the world. Myself included.)
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 10:38 AM on May 26, 2022 [13 favorites]
At the heart of this madness is the belief that your kids aren't human beings with their own tastes, vocations, preferences, and talents. They're yours to use as you please, and they'll come out the way you want them to or they'll regret it.
The same sickness that is motivating all the anti-trans laws targeting children and vile nonsense like Greg Abbott's push for a "Parents' Bill of Rights."
My dad recently died, and he was very much this type of self-centered narcissist. The hardest thing about his death has been talking to all his friends who talk about what a great guy he was, how much their friendship meant, etc. I want to say, "Yeah, but you didn't have to grow up with his emotionally abusive ass."
Been re-watching Breaking Bad and whoa, that is 100% Walter White's m.o., to the point where I think he may be a worse villain than even Tony Soprano. He's the archetypal petty tyrant, the little man who wants to be the Big Man.
Following Parasite Unseen's comment: After I started learning about Wheaton's struggles several years past, and learning this new aspect (I didn't know about his parents), also makes me reflect on how early kids are socialized into casual cruelty. I'm 4 years younger than Wheaton, and I watched him on TNG when it first aired. I remember liking him at first -- sort of an aspirational model for a nerdy, not athletic kid like me -- but then coming to dislike him, probably because my dad liked to compare me negatively to TV characters (the other main one being Fred Savage's character on The Wonder Years) whom he thought were "good kids" or "properly respectful" or whatever other bullshit it was. And so I became part of the general chorus of people (probably 95%+ young men) who talked about how much they hated Wesley Crusher, and I no doubt threw around some derogatory terms that start with f and r. I mean, it wasn't something I obsessed over and posted to the internet, just whenever the topic of Star Trek or Wesley might come up I'd have some stupid insult to say. I never saw the page Parasite mentions, but if I had I probably would have laughed and said, "Ha, yeah that loser should just kill himself for being such a ***, that'd be hilarious" without even thinking about what I had just said. And boy howdy do I wish I hadn't been that kid and that it didn't take another decade or two before I understood that getting lulz from cruelty to others does terrible things to you and the person you're mocking. But, live and learn and hopefully improve.
posted by Saxon Kane at 10:46 AM on May 26, 2022 [27 favorites]
The same sickness that is motivating all the anti-trans laws targeting children and vile nonsense like Greg Abbott's push for a "Parents' Bill of Rights."
My dad recently died, and he was very much this type of self-centered narcissist. The hardest thing about his death has been talking to all his friends who talk about what a great guy he was, how much their friendship meant, etc. I want to say, "Yeah, but you didn't have to grow up with his emotionally abusive ass."
Been re-watching Breaking Bad and whoa, that is 100% Walter White's m.o., to the point where I think he may be a worse villain than even Tony Soprano. He's the archetypal petty tyrant, the little man who wants to be the Big Man.
Following Parasite Unseen's comment: After I started learning about Wheaton's struggles several years past, and learning this new aspect (I didn't know about his parents), also makes me reflect on how early kids are socialized into casual cruelty. I'm 4 years younger than Wheaton, and I watched him on TNG when it first aired. I remember liking him at first -- sort of an aspirational model for a nerdy, not athletic kid like me -- but then coming to dislike him, probably because my dad liked to compare me negatively to TV characters (the other main one being Fred Savage's character on The Wonder Years) whom he thought were "good kids" or "properly respectful" or whatever other bullshit it was. And so I became part of the general chorus of people (probably 95%+ young men) who talked about how much they hated Wesley Crusher, and I no doubt threw around some derogatory terms that start with f and r. I mean, it wasn't something I obsessed over and posted to the internet, just whenever the topic of Star Trek or Wesley might come up I'd have some stupid insult to say. I never saw the page Parasite mentions, but if I had I probably would have laughed and said, "Ha, yeah that loser should just kill himself for being such a ***, that'd be hilarious" without even thinking about what I had just said. And boy howdy do I wish I hadn't been that kid and that it didn't take another decade or two before I understood that getting lulz from cruelty to others does terrible things to you and the person you're mocking. But, live and learn and hopefully improve.
posted by Saxon Kane at 10:46 AM on May 26, 2022 [27 favorites]
I can’t think of Wil Wheaton without thinking about how he was the very first person I ever saw the internet tell to kill himself. It wasn’t a throwaway comment on a message board, either; someone had gone through the trouble of creating a web page dedicated to telling Wil Wheaton to kill himself.
There was also the usenet group alt.wesley.crusher.die.die.die but maybe that's what you were thinking of, or what inspired the web page itself.
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24772386
In hindsight many parts of the earlier internet was awful. Even on really civilized usenet/newsgroups or mailing lists things often were downright toxic, even when it was all about something relatively peaceful.
I was on a number of local/regional mailing lists for raves and electronic music - which are really some of the most chill, peaceful, mindful people on the internet at the time. People who had the working motto of PLUR or PLURR (Peace, Love, Unity and Respeect and/or, later, Responsibility) and I remember people (including me) getting into massive, raging arguments and debates on lists and taking things way too far even though the actual topics were as simple and pointless as debating about electronic music genres and microgenres.
And those were the calmer parts of usenet and/or private mailserv lists. Head over to the more technical and male dominated parts of that early internet like computer, programming, hack/phreak or even ham radio groups or whatever and things were even worse and more fucked up.
On the other hand those were the places I learned how to communicate and use rhetoric effectively, which is super weird to think about in hindsight. Most of my writing skills for talking and arguing about culture or politics fairly and effectively came from vehemently arguing stupid minutiae about whether a particular new song or DJ was actually deep house, progressive house or tech house.
posted by loquacious at 11:15 AM on May 26, 2022 [4 favorites]
There was also the usenet group alt.wesley.crusher.die.die.die but maybe that's what you were thinking of, or what inspired the web page itself.
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24772386
In hindsight many parts of the earlier internet was awful. Even on really civilized usenet/newsgroups or mailing lists things often were downright toxic, even when it was all about something relatively peaceful.
I was on a number of local/regional mailing lists for raves and electronic music - which are really some of the most chill, peaceful, mindful people on the internet at the time. People who had the working motto of PLUR or PLURR (Peace, Love, Unity and Respeect and/or, later, Responsibility) and I remember people (including me) getting into massive, raging arguments and debates on lists and taking things way too far even though the actual topics were as simple and pointless as debating about electronic music genres and microgenres.
And those were the calmer parts of usenet and/or private mailserv lists. Head over to the more technical and male dominated parts of that early internet like computer, programming, hack/phreak or even ham radio groups or whatever and things were even worse and more fucked up.
On the other hand those were the places I learned how to communicate and use rhetoric effectively, which is super weird to think about in hindsight. Most of my writing skills for talking and arguing about culture or politics fairly and effectively came from vehemently arguing stupid minutiae about whether a particular new song or DJ was actually deep house, progressive house or tech house.
posted by loquacious at 11:15 AM on May 26, 2022 [4 favorites]
Any way you can screenshot that, or copy the text over? Facebook wants a login.
posted by gc at 11:38 AM on May 26, 2022
posted by gc at 11:38 AM on May 26, 2022
Copying and pasting, GC:
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 11:41 AM on May 26, 2022 [72 favorites]
When my blog was new, one of the places people were incredibly cruel to me was Metafilter. It broke my heart. I loved MeFi, was so excited to see that the thing I made was featured there. Then I saw page after page of hateful, cruel, deeply hurtful comments, and I was just devastated. I’m pretty sure I wrote about it in Still Just A Geek.And then he posted a screenshot of Dorothy Hawk's comment upthread.
I haven't been back in to MeFi in 20 years, but I noticed that a post I wrote yesterday about being forced into the industry by my mother who continues to lie to herself about it had been featured there. I wondered if anything had changed. I wondered if anyone remembered, or was still there from 20 years ago when that community treated me like a punching bag.
I was so heartened to see what I saw, and I sent a message back in time to 2000 Wil, so he knows. He's hurting a lot and needs all the wins he can get.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 11:41 AM on May 26, 2022 [72 favorites]
Hey Will, if you're reading this, quick shout out that you rock. One of the Good Guys.
posted by whatevernot at 11:41 AM on May 26, 2022 [20 favorites]
posted by whatevernot at 11:41 AM on May 26, 2022 [20 favorites]
Copy/paste from Wheaton's FB post:
When my blog was new, one of the places people were incredibly cruel to me was Metafilter. It broke my heart. I loved MeFi, was so excited to see that the thing I made was featured there. Then I saw page after page of hateful, cruel, deeply hurtful comments, and I was just devastated.posted by Gelatin at 11:41 AM on May 26, 2022 [6 favorites]
I’m pretty sure I wrote about it in Still Just A Geek.
I haven't been back in to MeFi in 20 years, but I noticed that a post I wrote yesterday about being forced into the industry by my mother who continues to lie to herself about it had been featured there. I wondered if anything had changed. I wondered if anyone remembered, or was still there from 20 years ago when that community treated me like a punching bag.
I was so heartened to see what I saw, and I sent a message back in time to 2000 Wil, so he knows. He's hurting a lot and needs all the wins he can get.
https://www.metafilter.com/195442/Let-Kids-Be
Dear Wil: you sound like a good egg to me, and I'm so sorry people were assholes to you 20 years ago. I'd like to think we can do better now. Looks like today we have, hopefully.
posted by jenfullmoon at 11:50 AM on May 26, 2022 [9 favorites]
posted by jenfullmoon at 11:50 AM on May 26, 2022 [9 favorites]
This is where I jump in and say I met Wil a couple of times at PAX West (then just PAX), and commented on the TNG stories he told, and how lovely it was that the cast seemed ready, willing, and able to kick Shatner's as after he was awful to Wil. He reflected at how great they were, and how much of a family they had been, and I really do adore that about that cast. I also asked if he had ascended in NetHack. "NO!" he said in surprise. We talked briefly about trying to, and never quite getting there. And then I awkwardly left, because I didn't want to take his time.
I say that because he is very generous with his time at events like that. He doesn't charge for autographs (yes for pictures which, hey, we all gotta eat), and he is willing to chat with his fans, and give them time to do so. I believe he's even talked about it in one of his books. I think the first time he was even fighting off a cold, but he was there, polite, if not cheerful, happily answering questions.
I'm so glad he's speaking out about what he went through. I'm sorry he went through it, but I always appreciate frank conversation about mental health, and Wil has always been really good about it.
Thank you, Wil. Sorry about everything.
posted by gc at 11:52 AM on May 26, 2022 [11 favorites]
I say that because he is very generous with his time at events like that. He doesn't charge for autographs (yes for pictures which, hey, we all gotta eat), and he is willing to chat with his fans, and give them time to do so. I believe he's even talked about it in one of his books. I think the first time he was even fighting off a cold, but he was there, polite, if not cheerful, happily answering questions.
I'm so glad he's speaking out about what he went through. I'm sorry he went through it, but I always appreciate frank conversation about mental health, and Wil has always been really good about it.
Thank you, Wil. Sorry about everything.
posted by gc at 11:52 AM on May 26, 2022 [11 favorites]
I didn't get into TNG (or any Trek) until meeting my now-wife 6 years ago, who's a big fan. Now, so am I. Watching through the first time, I also didn't like Wesley Crusher, but thankfully I was first seeing it as an adult with TV experience and a passion for screenwriting, etc., and it was clear to me that the fault didn't lie with Wil Wheaton, who was stuck with the thankless task of performing a character that the series didn't know how to write for (and doing so for a while before having any real instruction or training as an actor, which is terrifying to me to even think about.)
But then I saw "The First Duty," now my favorite TNG episode and one which is a deeply important touchstone for me in dealing with issues of consequences, honesty, and facing up to mistakes. And it's an episode that doesn't work without Wheaton's performance anchoring it.
I'm so sorry for the abuse he suffered at the hands of his parents, the writers, the internet and, apparently, Metafilter. I'm so happy that there were people like Patrick Stewart and Jonathan Frakes around when he needed them. And I'm grateful for what he's given to the world, which has made a very concrete and positive impression on my life.
Thank you, Wil.
posted by Navelgazer at 12:20 PM on May 26, 2022 [12 favorites]
But then I saw "The First Duty," now my favorite TNG episode and one which is a deeply important touchstone for me in dealing with issues of consequences, honesty, and facing up to mistakes. And it's an episode that doesn't work without Wheaton's performance anchoring it.
I'm so sorry for the abuse he suffered at the hands of his parents, the writers, the internet and, apparently, Metafilter. I'm so happy that there were people like Patrick Stewart and Jonathan Frakes around when he needed them. And I'm grateful for what he's given to the world, which has made a very concrete and positive impression on my life.
Thank you, Wil.
posted by Navelgazer at 12:20 PM on May 26, 2022 [12 favorites]
Whenever I think about terrible child actor experiences in the past, it draws me to think about terrible child YouTuber experiences now. If you've got kids and internet access, you're probably aware of absolutely gigantic youtube channels based around kids that bring in millions of revenue and focus on the kid reviewing toys or some other kind of vague advertorial content. These kids are going to eventually have some really wild things to deal with as adults because, well, imagine the kind of horrible child actor stuff that Wil et al have dealt with, but the set is inside your own home. There's no child advocates present or laws about hours that seem to touch this stuff, and these kids are essentially forced to perform their own life on screen.
posted by sleeping bear at 1:09 PM on May 26, 2022 [25 favorites]
posted by sleeping bear at 1:09 PM on May 26, 2022 [25 favorites]
Maaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaan, he ain't kidding. That first post here about his blog is a shitshow, right from the framing. That's just cruel and wrongheaded and awful, right from the jump.
Come back anytime, Wil. MeFi 2022 is a mix of the good ones from 20 years ago, folks who've learned better, and newer younger folks who are mostly better than us olds ever were.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 1:31 PM on May 26, 2022 [23 favorites]
Come back anytime, Wil. MeFi 2022 is a mix of the good ones from 20 years ago, folks who've learned better, and newer younger folks who are mostly better than us olds ever were.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 1:31 PM on May 26, 2022 [23 favorites]
DirtyOldTown: That first post here about his blog is a shitshow, right from the framing.
On the other hand, I've just read the whole thread and more than half of the comments can be paraphrased as 'Actually, I think he's OK / funny / smart / cool'.
So there's that.
Yes, people hated Wesley and they were a lot more vocal about it than they should have been. Yes, it was cruel. (And I'm glad I had no part in that.)
On yet another hand, the role was written that way... and the fact that people felt so strongly about him indicates that Wil as an actor clearly knocked it out of the park. Even though it was not what he wanted to do, and he didn't want to be there, and the whole thing must have been torture at times.
Wil Wheaton, I salute you. For many reasons.
posted by Too-Ticky at 1:49 PM on May 26, 2022 [11 favorites]
On the other hand, I've just read the whole thread and more than half of the comments can be paraphrased as 'Actually, I think he's OK / funny / smart / cool'.
So there's that.
Yes, people hated Wesley and they were a lot more vocal about it than they should have been. Yes, it was cruel. (And I'm glad I had no part in that.)
On yet another hand, the role was written that way... and the fact that people felt so strongly about him indicates that Wil as an actor clearly knocked it out of the park. Even though it was not what he wanted to do, and he didn't want to be there, and the whole thing must have been torture at times.
Wil Wheaton, I salute you. For many reasons.
posted by Too-Ticky at 1:49 PM on May 26, 2022 [11 favorites]
I always liked Wesley Crusher, there, I've said it. I felt like Wil was such a relatable figure and I was so happy when he was doing his blog in the early 00's and it turned out that he'd left Hollywood and done other real-life things instead and made his non-acting life. I wasn't around Mefi then but it seems like most of that thread is people disagreeing with the negative framing, and saying "hey he seems like an ok guy, way to go Wil".
Wil, if you're reading - I'm sorry that old Mefi thread stuck with you in such a hurtful way. (I hope it's a reminder to people here that it's easy to underestimate the power of your own words.) It's somehow fitting that you loved the site back then (prior), I've always kind of suspected it would be your kind of place and this explains why you weren't already a member when I joined. I'm glad we're showing a better side today.
posted by LobsterMitten at 1:52 PM on May 26, 2022 [13 favorites]
Wil, if you're reading - I'm sorry that old Mefi thread stuck with you in such a hurtful way. (I hope it's a reminder to people here that it's easy to underestimate the power of your own words.) It's somehow fitting that you loved the site back then (prior), I've always kind of suspected it would be your kind of place and this explains why you weren't already a member when I joined. I'm glad we're showing a better side today.
posted by LobsterMitten at 1:52 PM on May 26, 2022 [13 favorites]
Phew kinda glad I didn't get an account till 2004 though I definitely could still have said something shitty at some point. Hope I didn't.
posted by emjaybee at 1:54 PM on May 26, 2022 [3 favorites]
posted by emjaybee at 1:54 PM on May 26, 2022 [3 favorites]
So is now a good time to bring up the mastodon thing?
posted by a power-tie-wearing she-capitalist at 2:06 PM on May 26, 2022 [3 favorites]
posted by a power-tie-wearing she-capitalist at 2:06 PM on May 26, 2022 [3 favorites]
I have listened to his podcast here and there and know that this isn't new. Wil's been talking about the abuse from his parents for years now.
posted by zardoz at 2:23 PM on May 26, 2022
posted by zardoz at 2:23 PM on May 26, 2022
I am not ashamed of having hated the character Wesley back in the day, but Wheaton's ongoing feud (as "himself") with Sheldon Cooper was honestly one of the few funny bits in Big Bang Theory after about season one.
I hope he finds some peace.
posted by praemunire at 2:45 PM on May 26, 2022 [8 favorites]
I hope he finds some peace.
posted by praemunire at 2:45 PM on May 26, 2022 [8 favorites]
Thank you for posting, OP, and comments & links above. People dear to me, near to me, did grow up with that type of parenting-- "Fulfill my dreams or else!" and I see how it affects to this day. And I'm glad that Mr Wheaton has the patience and courage to talk about it, for as many years as it takes, so that someone listens, helps, stop, changes things.
posted by winesong at 3:20 PM on May 26, 2022 [3 favorites]
posted by winesong at 3:20 PM on May 26, 2022 [3 favorites]
I think we were kinder to him in 2018, when we talked about his speech on living with depression and anxiety. Thank you for that piece, Wil.
posted by MonkeyToes at 3:22 PM on May 26, 2022 [5 favorites]
posted by MonkeyToes at 3:22 PM on May 26, 2022 [5 favorites]
I wonder also if better enforced rules preventing parents from profiting off their child's labor might also help. It seems like it's just so easy for some to think of a child as the ticket out of the rat race and then make that a reality. I recall that Wheaton talked about financial exploitation but don't know the details, but I wonder how much these are related.
posted by corb at 3:30 PM on May 26, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by corb at 3:30 PM on May 26, 2022 [1 favorite]
So is now a good time to bring up the mastodon thing?
I may not have the full context, but seeing the blowback to Wil Wheaton joining Mastodon was what convinced me microblogging was fundamentally flawed, and it wasn't just Twitter's specific moderation practices that were the problem. It is a design that enables and rewards unkindness.
posted by Merus at 3:38 PM on May 26, 2022 [6 favorites]
I've heard several casting directors talk about how important it is to observe a child actor's parents during the casting process. So for example, if they see someone exhibiting stereotypical stage parent behavior -- snapping at the kid about standing up straight, being rude or entitled, etc. -- that they will not cast that kid because who wants those kinds of parents hanging around set?
posted by Saxon Kane at 3:39 PM on May 26, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by Saxon Kane at 3:39 PM on May 26, 2022 [2 favorites]
MonkeyToes,
We absolutely were not kinder to Wil Wheaton in 2018.
posted by a power-tie-wearing she-capitalist at 3:53 PM on May 26, 2022 [11 favorites]
We absolutely were not kinder to Wil Wheaton in 2018.
posted by a power-tie-wearing she-capitalist at 3:53 PM on May 26, 2022 [11 favorites]
When I first saw TNG I thought that the Wesley Crusher character was a brilliant move, and Wheaton more than an actor adequate to play him. The Internet hostility towards him(s) was at first amusing, then alarming. My impression was that he was to be the gateway actor for young children to enter the Trek universe, obviously. I guess the then-aging Trekkies weren't too concerned about new blood. This move often doesn't always go exactly as planned, btw - the Noah Wiley character in ER was supposed to be our inexperienced eyes and ears into a large urban hospital's emergency medicine department, but they had so many exploitable characters and gifted actors that he quickly became just one of many.
What I didn't have then but do now was the framework to mount a defense, at least in my own head, against the opprobrium Wheaton encountered. Now I would tell the critics that You Aren't the Target, the same way I've accepted and been tamed in my original hostility and rejection of things like rap, hop-hop, diva's etc. in modern pop. I am not the audience, and would be wise to find other things to complain about (no shortage of those, assuredly, amirite?).
posted by Chitownfats at 4:38 PM on May 26, 2022 [3 favorites]
What I didn't have then but do now was the framework to mount a defense, at least in my own head, against the opprobrium Wheaton encountered. Now I would tell the critics that You Aren't the Target, the same way I've accepted and been tamed in my original hostility and rejection of things like rap, hop-hop, diva's etc. in modern pop. I am not the audience, and would be wise to find other things to complain about (no shortage of those, assuredly, amirite?).
posted by Chitownfats at 4:38 PM on May 26, 2022 [3 favorites]
Eh, when TNG first began airing, I was younger than Wesley was.
posted by praemunire at 4:48 PM on May 26, 2022
posted by praemunire at 4:48 PM on May 26, 2022
So, TNG started in 1987, and so if there was any internet hostility toward Wesley it was on Usenet or bulletin board/FIDOnet things. I remember a lot of hostility toward Wesley amongst people I talked to who watched the show, like friends and workmates and stuff. I never assumed that there was anything about Wheaton to be reflected in the Wesley hate, because actors play characters and etc and so on. That it spilled over into something more is somehow both unsurprising and infuriating.
Wheaton is one of those people I'd like to run into in a setting where we can both pretend that I don't know who he is and we just hang out casually. I have a list of people like that, like yeah, you're famous, but if we were to meet somehow in the right place and time it "could be" that I don't know who you are and that would be fine. And be easier for both of us for the time we could hang out.
posted by hippybear at 4:48 PM on May 26, 2022 [2 favorites]
Wheaton is one of those people I'd like to run into in a setting where we can both pretend that I don't know who he is and we just hang out casually. I have a list of people like that, like yeah, you're famous, but if we were to meet somehow in the right place and time it "could be" that I don't know who you are and that would be fine. And be easier for both of us for the time we could hang out.
posted by hippybear at 4:48 PM on May 26, 2022 [2 favorites]
Eh, when TNG first began airing, I was younger than Wesley was.
Exactly my point. You weren't to be a peer, but one to be affected, welcomed. Who influences children more than older children?
posted by Chitownfats at 4:53 PM on May 26, 2022
Exactly my point. You weren't to be a peer, but one to be affected, welcomed. Who influences children more than older children?
posted by Chitownfats at 4:53 PM on May 26, 2022
I never understood some people's dislike of the TNG character, and I still don't. It seems like one of the most irrational fandom phenomena I've ever seen, and I've seen a lot of them.
posted by The Underpants Monster at 4:54 PM on May 26, 2022 [4 favorites]
posted by The Underpants Monster at 4:54 PM on May 26, 2022 [4 favorites]
hippeybear, I should have said Usenet, thank you.
posted by Chitownfats at 4:54 PM on May 26, 2022
posted by Chitownfats at 4:54 PM on May 26, 2022
That first post here about his blog is a shitshow, right from the framing.
The framing is awful, but I would be disappointed if Metafilter didn't dunk on "Uncle Willie went to bootytown", especially given the followup about his boner.
posted by betweenthebars at 5:15 PM on May 26, 2022 [1 favorite]
The framing is awful, but I would be disappointed if Metafilter didn't dunk on "Uncle Willie went to bootytown", especially given the followup about his boner.
posted by betweenthebars at 5:15 PM on May 26, 2022 [1 favorite]
But I didn't like the character! At all.
Nonetheless, I see in 2018 I had already reached the "can we consider whether we're spending our energy proportionally so that we don't end up overwhelming the more marginal people who do harmful stuff while leaving the more powerful actors and institutions to gambol on their merry devastating way" position. A Wheaton-agnostic position, I guess.
posted by praemunire at 5:33 PM on May 26, 2022 [1 favorite]
Nonetheless, I see in 2018 I had already reached the "can we consider whether we're spending our energy proportionally so that we don't end up overwhelming the more marginal people who do harmful stuff while leaving the more powerful actors and institutions to gambol on their merry devastating way" position. A Wheaton-agnostic position, I guess.
posted by praemunire at 5:33 PM on May 26, 2022 [1 favorite]
I never understood some people's dislike of the TNG character, and I still don't.
I think that it's a combination of many of the early episodes of TNG being not-great, and people wanting/needing a convenient hook to hang their dislikes on. When J.J. Abrams started his reboot of the Star Trek movies, some fans started bitching about his use of lens flares until I wished that they'd STFU about it; really, the movies had lots of things about them that were worse than that visual tic. The fact that the scapegoat for TNG's problems was a real person who was still a child (and a pretty vulnerable one at that, as this FPP shows) either escaped people or they just didn't care. The early internet could indeed be awful in some peculiar ways, as opposed to the peculiar ways that it can be awful now.
posted by Halloween Jack at 5:44 PM on May 26, 2022 [2 favorites]
I think that it's a combination of many of the early episodes of TNG being not-great, and people wanting/needing a convenient hook to hang their dislikes on. When J.J. Abrams started his reboot of the Star Trek movies, some fans started bitching about his use of lens flares until I wished that they'd STFU about it; really, the movies had lots of things about them that were worse than that visual tic. The fact that the scapegoat for TNG's problems was a real person who was still a child (and a pretty vulnerable one at that, as this FPP shows) either escaped people or they just didn't care. The early internet could indeed be awful in some peculiar ways, as opposed to the peculiar ways that it can be awful now.
posted by Halloween Jack at 5:44 PM on May 26, 2022 [2 favorites]
I was a precocious seven year old when TNG debuted so I loved Wesley and thought of him as my POV character throughout the show up until the part where he decided the Enterprise wasn’t cool enough for him and he left to go Be Faster on his own.
It was so weird to find out that the Internet hated him when I finally got access, long after the show ended.
posted by The Monster at the End of this Thread at 7:35 PM on May 26, 2022 [15 favorites]
It was so weird to find out that the Internet hated him when I finally got access, long after the show ended.
posted by The Monster at the End of this Thread at 7:35 PM on May 26, 2022 [15 favorites]
I didn’t discover until years later that Wesley was hated and hence Wil Wheaton was hated. I loved Wesley because he was a kid like me, in the coolest place I could imagine being. But around the same time I learned Wesley was hated I learned that people like me were “fake geek girls” and my opinion didn’t matter.
I’m glad he’s speaking more of his truth now and I think there’s a reckoning due about children in media
posted by Francies at 9:14 PM on May 26, 2022 [20 favorites]
I’m glad he’s speaking more of his truth now and I think there’s a reckoning due about children in media
posted by Francies at 9:14 PM on May 26, 2022 [20 favorites]
The problem with Wesley as a character was that it felt like the writers were working on the assumption that "hey young kids and teenagers are too stupid/immature/something to understand Star Trek or relate to any of the characters," so their decision was to create a "gateway" character that the kids could "get."
The catch is, however, is that the kids they were pandering to had grown up watching TOS on Saturday mornings and after school and whenever else it ran. Teenagers didn't need to see themselves as Wesley. They were already familiar with Star Trek, how the Federation worked, Vulcan history and abilities, Federation technology, etc. The sci-fi loving geeks and nerds were excited to have new Trek episodes, for the first time in their lives, and instead, they got talked down to, "look it here kiddies, here is somebody your own age (give or take a bit) so that you can get interested in the show and understand how all of this works."
Yeah, no thanks. That's really not necessary. We'd been watching Kirk playboy around the universe since we were in grade school. We'd been picking favourites in the regular Spock/McCoy spats for most of our lives. We'd all tried to emulate Scotty's terrible accent. To us, there was no need for Wesley, and it seems the writers felt that way as well, given how badly the character was written.
posted by sardonyx at 9:23 PM on May 26, 2022 [1 favorite]
The catch is, however, is that the kids they were pandering to had grown up watching TOS on Saturday mornings and after school and whenever else it ran. Teenagers didn't need to see themselves as Wesley. They were already familiar with Star Trek, how the Federation worked, Vulcan history and abilities, Federation technology, etc. The sci-fi loving geeks and nerds were excited to have new Trek episodes, for the first time in their lives, and instead, they got talked down to, "look it here kiddies, here is somebody your own age (give or take a bit) so that you can get interested in the show and understand how all of this works."
Yeah, no thanks. That's really not necessary. We'd been watching Kirk playboy around the universe since we were in grade school. We'd been picking favourites in the regular Spock/McCoy spats for most of our lives. We'd all tried to emulate Scotty's terrible accent. To us, there was no need for Wesley, and it seems the writers felt that way as well, given how badly the character was written.
posted by sardonyx at 9:23 PM on May 26, 2022 [1 favorite]
The catch is, however, is that the kids they were pandering to had grown up watching TOS on Saturday mornings and after school and whenever else it ran
Well, I'm sure there were some kids that grew up on TOS that thought Wesley was superfluous, but I was young enough to consider Wesley a role model. My older brothers were contemptuous towards him, but I thought he was super cool. Kids look up to older kids etc.
posted by a snickering nuthatch at 9:35 PM on May 26, 2022 [11 favorites]
Well, I'm sure there were some kids that grew up on TOS that thought Wesley was superfluous, but I was young enough to consider Wesley a role model. My older brothers were contemptuous towards him, but I thought he was super cool. Kids look up to older kids etc.
posted by a snickering nuthatch at 9:35 PM on May 26, 2022 [11 favorites]
Yeah I had no context for TOS when I was watching TNG. I just thought space was cool and the idea a kid like me could be in space made it even cooler.
posted by Francies at 9:41 PM on May 26, 2022 [5 favorites]
posted by Francies at 9:41 PM on May 26, 2022 [5 favorites]
Like no offense to you sardonyx but TOS started in 1966 and TNG in 1987. You can’t have been a “young kid/teenager” for both original runs.
posted by Francies at 9:46 PM on May 26, 2022 [3 favorites]
posted by Francies at 9:46 PM on May 26, 2022 [3 favorites]
Original Trek was rerun heavily throughout the seventies and eighties; it was hugely popular in syndication. sardonyx probably remembers the same kind of experiences I had, where Star Trek the original series was showing on weekend afternoons or weekday late nights on one TV station or another throughout their childhood.
posted by MrVisible at 9:52 PM on May 26, 2022 [12 favorites]
posted by MrVisible at 9:52 PM on May 26, 2022 [12 favorites]
I never felt I was being pandered to. I just thought he was a cool character in a great show. I've passionately enjoyed other TV shows, but TNG is still the only one where I'd gladly trade the world I live in to climb through the screen and live there. And it was cool that someone like me was a part of that.
posted by The Underpants Monster at 9:54 PM on May 26, 2022 [3 favorites]
posted by The Underpants Monster at 9:54 PM on May 26, 2022 [3 favorites]
Oh man now I really wish I hadn't made my comment about the audiobook, if Will saw this thread. :(
posted by Zumbador at 10:04 PM on May 26, 2022
posted by Zumbador at 10:04 PM on May 26, 2022
Regarding replacing all child actors with CGI: it struct me as notable that Mara Jade Wilson said that such a thing was inevitable, but has stopped short of demanding that the concept of child actors be outlawed. I have a feeling that she knows something we can only merely suspect: that many Hollywood higher-ups are opposed to the notion, for reasons both practical and, well, already infamous.
posted by BiggerJ at 2:58 AM on May 27, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by BiggerJ at 2:58 AM on May 27, 2022 [2 favorites]
I think that it's a combination of many of the early episodes of TNG being not-great, and people wanting/needing a convenient hook to hang their dislikes on.
I agree, but also: Many of the characters in TNG were analogous to, but different from, characters in TOS. Picard contrasted with Kirk, while Riker was much more like him; rather than Spock hating his human side, you had Data wanting to be human, Worf was a Klingon but a fiercely loyal Starfleet officer, etc.
But Wesley didn't have an analogy in TOS, so he stood out. Combine that with the fact that, as noted above, the aging TOS fans had no investment in a character intended for younger viewers to relate to, and then add the poor job the writers did making the character likeable, and sad for Wheaton -- who didn't especially want to be acting in the first place -- the Wesley Crusher Project was doomed to failure.
posted by Gelatin at 3:54 AM on May 27, 2022 [2 favorites]
I agree, but also: Many of the characters in TNG were analogous to, but different from, characters in TOS. Picard contrasted with Kirk, while Riker was much more like him; rather than Spock hating his human side, you had Data wanting to be human, Worf was a Klingon but a fiercely loyal Starfleet officer, etc.
But Wesley didn't have an analogy in TOS, so he stood out. Combine that with the fact that, as noted above, the aging TOS fans had no investment in a character intended for younger viewers to relate to, and then add the poor job the writers did making the character likeable, and sad for Wheaton -- who didn't especially want to be acting in the first place -- the Wesley Crusher Project was doomed to failure.
posted by Gelatin at 3:54 AM on May 27, 2022 [2 favorites]
Well, I'm sure there were some kids that grew up on TOS that thought Wesley was superfluous, but I was young enough to consider Wesley a role model. My older brothers were contemptuous towards him, but I thought he was super cool. Kids look up to older kids etc.
Wheaton has noted the number of fans that have told him stories like these helped him re-evaluate Wesley and made his attitude to the character much more positive.
posted by Gelatin at 4:00 AM on May 27, 2022 [2 favorites]
Wheaton has noted the number of fans that have told him stories like these helped him re-evaluate Wesley and made his attitude to the character much more positive.
posted by Gelatin at 4:00 AM on May 27, 2022 [2 favorites]
Count me in the “Wesley Crusher” fan club. I watched TNG with my dad when I was a tween and I thought he was cool and super cute. Then I was really tickled when he grew up to be this smart and very normal and relatable internet personality — as noted, about the best outcome one can hope for for a child actor, and even more surprising against the backdrop he talks about here. I’m so confused by the character hate, honestly, and really sad that MeFi treated Wheaton so horribly.
posted by eirias at 5:02 AM on May 27, 2022 [8 favorites]
posted by eirias at 5:02 AM on May 27, 2022 [8 favorites]
I'm less than a year younger than Wil. When TNG came out, I was into sci-fi and couldn't stand the TOS reruns, which I thought were incredibly corny in a way I didn't find the reruns of say, Lost in Space. I ended up watching every episode of the show I could (things weren't like they are today) and developed crushes on Wesley, Worf, and Jean-Luc over the years.
When I finally got on the line in 2000 I discovered that everyone hated Wes, like what the hell? (I had one friend that also watched the show and he didn't like Wes, but I thought he was just jealous, lol!) And then on top of that, I found out Riker was supposed to be the ladies' man?! (I hope Frakes isn't reading this)
I learned some things about the world.. there's more jerks willing to voice their opinion on any given topic than there are cool people. And some things about myself.. I'm attracted to all kinds of men except the ones with hair *directly* over the lip, Worf 'staches are (or at least were) not a dealbreaker.
I always get excited when I'm watching something like Eureka or Dark Matter and Wil shows up!
I loved TNG, I loved Wil in the show, and I'm sad to learn it wasn't just the fans making that time a complete hell for him.
posted by mllm at 6:21 AM on May 27, 2022 [4 favorites]
When I finally got on the line in 2000 I discovered that everyone hated Wes, like what the hell? (I had one friend that also watched the show and he didn't like Wes, but I thought he was just jealous, lol!) And then on top of that, I found out Riker was supposed to be the ladies' man?! (I hope Frakes isn't reading this)
I learned some things about the world.. there's more jerks willing to voice their opinion on any given topic than there are cool people. And some things about myself.. I'm attracted to all kinds of men except the ones with hair *directly* over the lip, Worf 'staches are (or at least were) not a dealbreaker.
I always get excited when I'm watching something like Eureka or Dark Matter and Wil shows up!
I loved TNG, I loved Wil in the show, and I'm sad to learn it wasn't just the fans making that time a complete hell for him.
posted by mllm at 6:21 AM on May 27, 2022 [4 favorites]
MrVisible is exactly right. Reruns of TOS were played all the time in syndication (hence me mentioning Saturday mornings and after school).
Yes, children growing up in the 1970s and 1980s, got the new Trek movies with the TOS crew, but that wasn't the same as having new weekly episodes of Trek on TV. We didn't get to see these characters establish themselves. They were already part of the culture. You knew who Kirk and Spock were, even if you weren't a sci-fi fan and didn't watch the show.
Kids who grew up in the 1970s and 1980s were still kids or teenagers when TNG came to air, so this was the first new Trek TV in our lifetime, but as I said, we were already familiar with the Trek universe, so we didn't need the character of Wesley to be a conduit into that world. I'll grant that maybe if you were very young (maybe under 10?) when TNG came out, Wesley could have worked as a role model, but for the older kids, he was pretty much superfluous.
posted by sardonyx at 7:12 AM on May 27, 2022 [2 favorites]
Yes, children growing up in the 1970s and 1980s, got the new Trek movies with the TOS crew, but that wasn't the same as having new weekly episodes of Trek on TV. We didn't get to see these characters establish themselves. They were already part of the culture. You knew who Kirk and Spock were, even if you weren't a sci-fi fan and didn't watch the show.
Kids who grew up in the 1970s and 1980s were still kids or teenagers when TNG came to air, so this was the first new Trek TV in our lifetime, but as I said, we were already familiar with the Trek universe, so we didn't need the character of Wesley to be a conduit into that world. I'll grant that maybe if you were very young (maybe under 10?) when TNG came out, Wesley could have worked as a role model, but for the older kids, he was pretty much superfluous.
posted by sardonyx at 7:12 AM on May 27, 2022 [2 favorites]
I mean, wasn’t he also a bit of a lure for young girl fans? I had magazine cutouts of him and the rest of the cast of Stand by Me on my wall. He was cute and approachable in a way that would have and did appeal to me as a tween/teen in the 80s. Certain men are far more likely to come out and “share their opinions” on things and be especially vitriolic if there’s something that exists that isn’t catering to their narrow interests.
posted by amanda at 7:18 AM on May 27, 2022 [6 favorites]
posted by amanda at 7:18 AM on May 27, 2022 [6 favorites]
Loong time ago, but the impression I had when I saw Wesley Crusher is that his character was intended to be the one that really young kids got to identify with - I mean kids from maybe four to eight-years-old. The original Star Trek had a lot in common with the original Adam West Batman - it was very silly and it had nothing that would be too confusing for kids in that age range. I think they wrote in Wheaton's character to try to bridge the silly, simple, episodic nature of the first Star Trek with the deeper and more adult themes of the later series.
And the impression I got was that the character was disliked by the fans that found him insufferable, either because they were ashamed that they would have identified with the over-the-top over achiever elements of the character when they were younger, or because of that kind of ageism that causes people to be annoyed when there are kids around so they have to keep it PG13. A lot of people get really angry if they have to make space for kids.
I'd be curious to know if Wheaton's parents actually banked all of his acting and publicity work income for when he became an adult, or if some of the pressure put on him to be an actor was because they had gotten themselves into needing it to cover what they saw as essential expenses. It such a common pattern - Mommy drinks because it is so stressful stage managing Child's career on top of her own work/home/etc. responsibilities. She has to party to make those contacts and drink to unwind after all the effort she is putting in - and since it is all being done on Child's behalf, it's only reasonable that part of Child's income be used to cover transportation, networking, hotel bills and wardrobe. And of course the enormous expense of alcoholism gets subsumed under acting career expenses, including things like her own absences from work and her ability to keep up a middle class appearance when she escorts child places. But I don't know of course how it was in this instance.
posted by Jane the Brown at 7:23 AM on May 27, 2022 [7 favorites]
And the impression I got was that the character was disliked by the fans that found him insufferable, either because they were ashamed that they would have identified with the over-the-top over achiever elements of the character when they were younger, or because of that kind of ageism that causes people to be annoyed when there are kids around so they have to keep it PG13. A lot of people get really angry if they have to make space for kids.
I'd be curious to know if Wheaton's parents actually banked all of his acting and publicity work income for when he became an adult, or if some of the pressure put on him to be an actor was because they had gotten themselves into needing it to cover what they saw as essential expenses. It such a common pattern - Mommy drinks because it is so stressful stage managing Child's career on top of her own work/home/etc. responsibilities. She has to party to make those contacts and drink to unwind after all the effort she is putting in - and since it is all being done on Child's behalf, it's only reasonable that part of Child's income be used to cover transportation, networking, hotel bills and wardrobe. And of course the enormous expense of alcoholism gets subsumed under acting career expenses, including things like her own absences from work and her ability to keep up a middle class appearance when she escorts child places. But I don't know of course how it was in this instance.
posted by Jane the Brown at 7:23 AM on May 27, 2022 [7 favorites]
And the impression I got was that the character was disliked by the fans that found him insufferable, either because they were ashamed that they would have identified with the over-the-top over achiever elements of the character when they were younger
You are probably not wrong about this aspect at all.
posted by Gelatin at 7:32 AM on May 27, 2022 [2 favorites]
You are probably not wrong about this aspect at all.
posted by Gelatin at 7:32 AM on May 27, 2022 [2 favorites]
I guess the then-aging Trekkies weren't too concerned about new blood
I hadn't considered the hostility to young actors as a kind of gatekeeping. I'm going to have to think about this for a while.
posted by mhoye at 7:42 AM on May 27, 2022 [1 favorite]
I hadn't considered the hostility to young actors as a kind of gatekeeping. I'm going to have to think about this for a while.
posted by mhoye at 7:42 AM on May 27, 2022 [1 favorite]
Not to turn this into a Wesley Crusher derail, but I recall Wheaton talking about his first experiences on the TNG set and his character, and that it was Gene Roddenberry who was the driving force behind trying to "make" Wesley Crusher a thing*, which the writer's room resented and so the character suffered in scripts, especially after Roddenberry's producer & writing role was diminished after TNG's first season.
*There's a lot of anecdotal evidence the character of Wesley Crusher was an attempt by Roddenberry to "fix" his own complicated relationship with his real-life son Rod. Accounts I've seen and read over the years from both Wheaton and Rod Roddenberry seem to suggest that Gene viewed the character of Wesley as the idealized amalgam of Gene's memories of his own teenage years and who he wished Rod was in IRL, to the point that Gene had a better "father-son" relationship with Wheaton on set then he did with Rod at home.
posted by KingEdRa at 8:24 AM on May 27, 2022 [8 favorites]
*There's a lot of anecdotal evidence the character of Wesley Crusher was an attempt by Roddenberry to "fix" his own complicated relationship with his real-life son Rod. Accounts I've seen and read over the years from both Wheaton and Rod Roddenberry seem to suggest that Gene viewed the character of Wesley as the idealized amalgam of Gene's memories of his own teenage years and who he wished Rod was in IRL, to the point that Gene had a better "father-son" relationship with Wheaton on set then he did with Rod at home.
posted by KingEdRa at 8:24 AM on May 27, 2022 [8 favorites]
I loved Wesley on TNG and before I deep-sixed my social media accounts (for the most part) I loved following Wil. I'm sorry he got such a raw deal and I'm glad he's made that raw deal actually work for him.
posted by schyler523 at 10:04 AM on May 27, 2022 [3 favorites]
posted by schyler523 at 10:04 AM on May 27, 2022 [3 favorites]
I agree, but also: Many of the characters in TNG were analogous to, but different from, characters in TOS. Picard contrasted with Kirk, while Riker was much more like him; rather than Spock hating his human side, you had Data wanting to be human, Worf was a Klingon but a fiercely loyal Starfleet officer, etc. But Wesley didn't have an analogy in TOS, so he stood out. Combine that with the fact that, as noted above, the aging TOS fans had no investment in a character intended for younger viewers to relate to, and then add the poor job the writers did making the character likeable, and sad for Wheaton -- who didn't especially want to be acting in the first place -- the Wesley Crusher Project was doomed to failure.
That's a really good point, Gelatin. It's interesting to contrast the reception of Wesley with that of Jake Sisko on DS9, who was allowed to be a kid on the show, maybe a bit above-average--he did reporting from the station when it was occupied by the Dominion--but still someone who had friends and hobbies and didn't want to go into Starfleet even when his best friend did (and his dad was totally OK with that). One of the best DS9 episodes was "The Visitor", a Jake episode.
*There's a lot of anecdotal evidence the character of Wesley Crusher was an attempt by Roddenberry to "fix" his own complicated relationship with his real-life son Rod. Accounts I've seen and read over the years from both Wheaton and Rod Roddenberry seem to suggest that Gene viewed the character of Wesley as the idealized amalgam of Gene's memories of his own teenage years and who he wished Rod was in IRL, to the point that Gene had a better "father-son" relationship with Wheaton on set then he did with Rod at home.
Both Gene and Rod's middle names are Wesley.
posted by Halloween Jack at 12:01 PM on May 27, 2022 [8 favorites]
That's a really good point, Gelatin. It's interesting to contrast the reception of Wesley with that of Jake Sisko on DS9, who was allowed to be a kid on the show, maybe a bit above-average--he did reporting from the station when it was occupied by the Dominion--but still someone who had friends and hobbies and didn't want to go into Starfleet even when his best friend did (and his dad was totally OK with that). One of the best DS9 episodes was "The Visitor", a Jake episode.
*There's a lot of anecdotal evidence the character of Wesley Crusher was an attempt by Roddenberry to "fix" his own complicated relationship with his real-life son Rod. Accounts I've seen and read over the years from both Wheaton and Rod Roddenberry seem to suggest that Gene viewed the character of Wesley as the idealized amalgam of Gene's memories of his own teenage years and who he wished Rod was in IRL, to the point that Gene had a better "father-son" relationship with Wheaton on set then he did with Rod at home.
Both Gene and Rod's middle names are Wesley.
posted by Halloween Jack at 12:01 PM on May 27, 2022 [8 favorites]
Wrote a bunch of stuff about the wrong guy. Could have sworn it was him on Secrets of Sulphur Springs.
posted by The_Vegetables at 12:40 PM on May 27, 2022
posted by The_Vegetables at 12:40 PM on May 27, 2022
Also a good point, Halloween Jack. I wonder if the fact that Wesley Crusher already existed made Jake Sisko more acceptable, because young characters had by then been established?
I also find myself wondering if the fact that Jake's single parent was his dad, rather than Wesley's being his mom, may have been a factor.
posted by Gelatin at 12:42 PM on May 27, 2022 [3 favorites]
I also find myself wondering if the fact that Jake's single parent was his dad, rather than Wesley's being his mom, may have been a factor.
posted by Gelatin at 12:42 PM on May 27, 2022 [3 favorites]
I find it kind of horrifying that his mother is probably sincere when she says she doesn’t remember.
The tree remembers. The axe forgets.
posted by bq at 5:52 PM on May 27, 2022 [11 favorites]
The tree remembers. The axe forgets.
posted by bq at 5:52 PM on May 27, 2022 [11 favorites]
I'd be curious to know if Wheaton's parents actually banked all of his acting and publicity work income for when he became an adult, or if some of the pressure put on him to be an actor was because they had gotten themselves into needing it to cover what they saw as essential expenses.
God I hope so. They would have been required to by law but if they didn’t and the money was gone, then you can’t get blood from a stone.
posted by bq at 5:53 PM on May 27, 2022
God I hope so. They would have been required to by law but if they didn’t and the money was gone, then you can’t get blood from a stone.
posted by bq at 5:53 PM on May 27, 2022
Generally speaking, California law requires 15% of a child's earnings to be set aside in a special account. But unscrupulous parents do find loopholes, and most of the time cases don't go to court because people don't want to sue their parents.
posted by The Underpants Monster at 7:13 PM on May 27, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by The Underpants Monster at 7:13 PM on May 27, 2022 [1 favorite]
We absolutely were not kinder to Wil Wheaton in 2018.
As I said in that thread, "This is going to be one of those threads that, 5 or 10 years from now, people will link to as an example of how toxic and mean Metafilter could be." I'm glad we're finally being kind.
posted by jjwiseman at 11:53 PM on May 27, 2022 [15 favorites]
As I said in that thread, "This is going to be one of those threads that, 5 or 10 years from now, people will link to as an example of how toxic and mean Metafilter could be." I'm glad we're finally being kind.
posted by jjwiseman at 11:53 PM on May 27, 2022 [15 favorites]
I personally believe the reason so many people on the internet are choosing to be kind is because the spreading cancer that is the alt-right is showing us what the alternative inevitably becomes.
posted by BiggerJ at 5:51 PM on May 28, 2022 [6 favorites]
posted by BiggerJ at 5:51 PM on May 28, 2022 [6 favorites]
Or maybe people are choosing to be kind because IT'S THE RIGHT THING TO DO.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 8:58 AM on May 29, 2022 [3 favorites]
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 8:58 AM on May 29, 2022 [3 favorites]
>I personally believe the reason so many people on the internet are choosing to be kind is because the spreading cancer that is the alt-right is showing us what the alternative inevitably becomes.
>>Or maybe people are choosing to be kind because IT'S THE RIGHT THING TO DO.
Eh, I don’t believe these two ideas are necessarily wholly in opposition to each other. Seeing the consequences of a certain behavior can be the thing that helps you realize that behavior wasn’t the right thing to do all along.
posted by The Underpants Monster at 9:27 AM on May 29, 2022 [7 favorites]
>>Or maybe people are choosing to be kind because IT'S THE RIGHT THING TO DO.
Eh, I don’t believe these two ideas are necessarily wholly in opposition to each other. Seeing the consequences of a certain behavior can be the thing that helps you realize that behavior wasn’t the right thing to do all along.
posted by The Underpants Monster at 9:27 AM on May 29, 2022 [7 favorites]
(I think they are basically the same idea)
posted by Saxon Kane at 4:14 PM on May 30, 2022
posted by Saxon Kane at 4:14 PM on May 30, 2022
How odd to read a post about this deeply human and heart wrenching thing and then have it devolve into beanplating about one role this very human person played. I think it’s easier to go back and forth that way than to really confront and read the pleading of a child to be SEEN and allowed to exist as something not for consumption but to exist as a person. I was deeply moved by it and by his courage in saying the truth even knowing that his mother will call him a liar. What an astounding amount of courage and fortitude and compassion for himself. I hope that what he wrote gives many people the courage to speak the truth about their lives.
posted by Bottlecap at 5:28 PM on June 4, 2022 [7 favorites]
posted by Bottlecap at 5:28 PM on June 4, 2022 [7 favorites]
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