California takes bold step to reduce truck pollution
July 2, 2022 8:42 PM Subscribe
First-of-its-kind requirement for electric trucks will help communities hardest hit by air pollution
Logistics on electric vehicles/power generation are going to be interesting. We're creating a requirement for technology we don't have the infrastructure to support. I'm all for progress, but this just seems...backwards.
posted by Chuffy at 9:51 PM on July 2, 2022 [5 favorites]
posted by Chuffy at 9:51 PM on July 2, 2022 [5 favorites]
Electric semi trucks are going to be a big challenge for the electric vehicle industry. A truck can only weigh so much before it breaks the roads. Batteries are much heavier than diesel and so you sacrifice a lot of cargo on the 18 wheeler. It looks like this is a clean vehicle standard not just electric so I suspect they will focus on hydrogen as a zero emission alternative. The other answer is more electric rail or to have overhead wires in urban areas and hybrid motors. So you can move the trucks like electric busses. Then detach when you get to the interstate.
Smaller trucks and cargo vans that deliver to the last mile are of course viable today and probably would do a lot to reduce pollution from deliveries.
posted by interogative mood at 9:58 PM on July 2, 2022 [11 favorites]
Smaller trucks and cargo vans that deliver to the last mile are of course viable today and probably would do a lot to reduce pollution from deliveries.
posted by interogative mood at 9:58 PM on July 2, 2022 [11 favorites]
I'd just like to point out California doesn't even show up once in the Constitution.
posted by NoThisIsPatrick at 10:12 PM on July 2, 2022 [41 favorites]
posted by NoThisIsPatrick at 10:12 PM on July 2, 2022 [41 favorites]
Salient to the topic: West Coast Electric Highway
posted by aramaic at 10:12 PM on July 2, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by aramaic at 10:12 PM on July 2, 2022 [2 favorites]
For immediate releaseIs this some strange usage of the word "immediate" that I was previously unaware of?
Date
June 25, 2020
posted by flabdablet at 10:35 PM on July 2, 2022 [3 favorites]
i would love any historians out there to opine on what has happened historically when the wealthiest, most economically powerful, most populous, but politically powerless part of a nation tries to drag the rest into a future they dont want. who has won and how?
the gap between california and the rest of the us when it comes to economy, tech, and culture is massive. it's like 30, 40, 50 years. it's insane. and it cant be ignored as some pointyheaded eggheaded nonsense, like you might dismiss manhattan, because we also grow half their food. is there any precedent for this?
posted by wibari at 10:37 PM on July 2, 2022 [25 favorites]
the gap between california and the rest of the us when it comes to economy, tech, and culture is massive. it's like 30, 40, 50 years. it's insane. and it cant be ignored as some pointyheaded eggheaded nonsense, like you might dismiss manhattan, because we also grow half their food. is there any precedent for this?
posted by wibari at 10:37 PM on July 2, 2022 [25 favorites]
I'm always wary of plans dependent on batteries (no more wars for oil! now they're for lithium!).
Hydrogen requires frequent refueling, but it's a fast process. So if it looks like a truck and drives like a truck; but the only difference is that you have to stop for 10 minutes every 300 miles at something that looks and works like a gas station, I'll take that trade. Well, until we start fighting over platinum for the fuel cells.
posted by bartleby at 11:00 PM on July 2, 2022 [2 favorites]
Hydrogen requires frequent refueling, but it's a fast process. So if it looks like a truck and drives like a truck; but the only difference is that you have to stop for 10 minutes every 300 miles at something that looks and works like a gas station, I'll take that trade. Well, until we start fighting over platinum for the fuel cells.
posted by bartleby at 11:00 PM on July 2, 2022 [2 favorites]
And then there’s this, which no one is even yet considering reducing
posted by cali at 1:14 AM on July 3, 2022 [3 favorites]
posted by cali at 1:14 AM on July 3, 2022 [3 favorites]
The other answer is more electric rail or to have overhead wires in urban areas and hybrid motors. So you can move the trucks like electric busses. Then detach when you get to the interstate.
Yeah. Hybrid trucks would be infinitely better and easier for the industry to adapt to. An electric drive train in urban areas and engines acting as range extenders for long highway driving.
posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock at 4:15 AM on July 3, 2022 [1 favorite]
Yeah. Hybrid trucks would be infinitely better and easier for the industry to adapt to. An electric drive train in urban areas and engines acting as range extenders for long highway driving.
posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock at 4:15 AM on July 3, 2022 [1 favorite]
I'm always wary of plans dependent on batteries (no more wars for oil! now they're for lithium!)
Not necessarily.
posted by flabdablet at 4:43 AM on July 3, 2022 [4 favorites]
Not necessarily.
posted by flabdablet at 4:43 AM on July 3, 2022 [4 favorites]
Even if we were stuck with lithium for battery chemistry, it’s not like the batteries are consuming it. They’re made with it, and at the end of life they can be recycled.
posted by condour75 at 5:38 AM on July 3, 2022 [3 favorites]
posted by condour75 at 5:38 AM on July 3, 2022 [3 favorites]
I was at a green building symposium recently and one speaker was from a huge international company that does mining and really heavy construction. They've been using electric vehicles in their European sites, and these things are LARGE. If electric dump trucks and even bigger vehicles are out there being used, I don't see a problem with tractor trailers.
And personally, I would love love love to not be surrounded by the deafening sounds of traditional heavy trucks.
posted by sepviva at 6:57 AM on July 3, 2022 [8 favorites]
And personally, I would love love love to not be surrounded by the deafening sounds of traditional heavy trucks.
posted by sepviva at 6:57 AM on July 3, 2022 [8 favorites]
And then there’s this, which no one is even yet considering reducing.
It's very early days, but there is actually some work being done on this.
posted by ryanshepard at 6:58 AM on July 3, 2022 [1 favorite]
It's very early days, but there is actually some work being done on this.
posted by ryanshepard at 6:58 AM on July 3, 2022 [1 favorite]
Lithium recycling is currently not happening at scale in the US. I am very modestly invested in a couple companies who are trying. For now batteries are not a particularly great way to move large things on roads, the economies of scale and weight don’t play out yet.
Getting away from semis entirely and back to trains should be a goal here; big trucks trash the roads, are quite dangerous, and inspire really shitty labor conditions. Unfortunately it’s not that easy because of how integrated and modular international shipping became. Changing anything about the harbor to warehouse infrastructure would probably involve actually unloading containers into smaller cans (increasing costs/footprint/labor harbor-side). And years of disinvestment on the train side of things mean American freight rail is already over capacity in such a way that increasing it almost anywhere would not just be incredibly pricey but immediately run into eminent domain and zoning issues.
I don’t think there are any good single solutions to the situation, including “make all the trucks electric.”
posted by aspersioncast at 7:17 AM on July 3, 2022 [7 favorites]
Getting away from semis entirely and back to trains should be a goal here; big trucks trash the roads, are quite dangerous, and inspire really shitty labor conditions. Unfortunately it’s not that easy because of how integrated and modular international shipping became. Changing anything about the harbor to warehouse infrastructure would probably involve actually unloading containers into smaller cans (increasing costs/footprint/labor harbor-side). And years of disinvestment on the train side of things mean American freight rail is already over capacity in such a way that increasing it almost anywhere would not just be incredibly pricey but immediately run into eminent domain and zoning issues.
I don’t think there are any good single solutions to the situation, including “make all the trucks electric.”
posted by aspersioncast at 7:17 AM on July 3, 2022 [7 favorites]
Check out UPS's new battery-powered cargo cycles, which are hitting the streets of NYC and parts of Europe
I think we'll be seeing more and more of the above for last-mile and dense-city truck delivery.
posted by gwint at 7:33 AM on July 3, 2022 [4 favorites]
I think we'll be seeing more and more of the above for last-mile and dense-city truck delivery.
posted by gwint at 7:33 AM on July 3, 2022 [4 favorites]
I was at a green building symposium recently and one speaker was from a huge international company that does mining and really heavy construction. They've been using electric vehicles in their European sites, and these things are LARGE. If electric dump trucks and even bigger vehicles are out there being used, I don't see a problem with tractor trailers.
It's not about weight. F=ma but that same acceleration up is also deceleration back down. That's why regenerative braking makes the city and highway mpg of a hybrid or electric car nearly identical. What kills a truck in terms of electrical suitability is Pd = ½pv³ACd. Most of the energy that a car or truck puts out over a distance is spent 90% overcoming air drag and 10% rolling resistance. Trucks have large A (area), they have high Cd (coefficient of drag), and the velocity is anywhere between 55 and 70mph. So you need not only a constant amount of power input but an amount of power that goes up exponentially with speed and an industry where self-employed truckers are paid by miles instead of hours.
On the other hand a really large dump truck on a mine site that's limited to 35mph is going to have a v³ 1/8th of a truck going 70mph. It's going to have a much larger area but it starts with a huuuuuuuge advantage and 10 tons of battery is going to matter to a 35 ton truck while it's going to be a rounding error on a Cat 797F.
Using batteries for low speed heavy objects is easy. Making battery operated things that go relatively fast through a fluid, even air, for incredibly long stretches is incredibly difficult.
posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock at 7:34 AM on July 3, 2022 [20 favorites]
It's not about weight. F=ma but that same acceleration up is also deceleration back down. That's why regenerative braking makes the city and highway mpg of a hybrid or electric car nearly identical. What kills a truck in terms of electrical suitability is Pd = ½pv³ACd. Most of the energy that a car or truck puts out over a distance is spent 90% overcoming air drag and 10% rolling resistance. Trucks have large A (area), they have high Cd (coefficient of drag), and the velocity is anywhere between 55 and 70mph. So you need not only a constant amount of power input but an amount of power that goes up exponentially with speed and an industry where self-employed truckers are paid by miles instead of hours.
On the other hand a really large dump truck on a mine site that's limited to 35mph is going to have a v³ 1/8th of a truck going 70mph. It's going to have a much larger area but it starts with a huuuuuuuge advantage and 10 tons of battery is going to matter to a 35 ton truck while it's going to be a rounding error on a Cat 797F.
Using batteries for low speed heavy objects is easy. Making battery operated things that go relatively fast through a fluid, even air, for incredibly long stretches is incredibly difficult.
posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock at 7:34 AM on July 3, 2022 [20 favorites]
Power goes up with the cube of speed (that's still just the third power, and not "exponential"), but fuel use over distance only with the square, since faster trucks also gobble up the road faster.
posted by tigrrrlily at 8:30 AM on July 3, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by tigrrrlily at 8:30 AM on July 3, 2022 [2 favorites]
Yeah. Hybrid trucks would be infinitely better and easier for the industry to adapt to. An electric drive train in urban areas and engines acting as range extenders for long highway driving.
It might make more sense to use smaller batteries in town to navigate the last mile but erect pantographs to run trucks on highways instead. There seem to be pilot projects for this already in Europe? This means keeps battery weight down and it might encourage, say, more roadside/center solar generation?
This also solves the low speed/high speed vs aerodynamics issue. You can deliver a lot more power on a pantograph than trying to squeeze it into a battery.
posted by delicious-luncheon at 9:01 AM on July 3, 2022 [1 favorite]
It might make more sense to use smaller batteries in town to navigate the last mile but erect pantographs to run trucks on highways instead. There seem to be pilot projects for this already in Europe? This means keeps battery weight down and it might encourage, say, more roadside/center solar generation?
This also solves the low speed/high speed vs aerodynamics issue. You can deliver a lot more power on a pantograph than trying to squeeze it into a battery.
posted by delicious-luncheon at 9:01 AM on July 3, 2022 [1 favorite]
but erect pantographs to run trucks on highways instead.
What is it about modern government that makes them so allergic to just using trains for long haul and trunk routes? This is literally an electric freight train.
posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock at 9:38 AM on July 3, 2022 [18 favorites]
What is it about modern government that makes them so allergic to just using trains for long haul and trunk routes? This is literally an electric freight train.
posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock at 9:38 AM on July 3, 2022 [18 favorites]
Beanplating about propulsion systems aside, this is the first time I've seen a US state describe environmental law as a social justice issue.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 9:41 AM on July 3, 2022 [8 favorites]
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 9:41 AM on July 3, 2022 [8 favorites]
What is it about modern government that makes them so allergic to just using trains for long haul and trunk routes?
Voters get angry about infrastructure they can’t drive on? Just guessing; personally I’d feel much happier on roads with fewer heavy trucks.
Also, it seems to me that we have seriously changed the pattern of how material flows through the world in the last ?30? years. There used to be production in many more places, and maybe many-to-many networks are hard enough to constantly reschedule that using trucks made more sense than trains.
There’s a really good book on the physical rise of Chicago as an intermediary between the entire Midwest and (functionally) New York. Lots of plans foundered on the geometry of transport, which changed as technology changed. I read it as a Seattlite thinking about UPS and Boeing and Amazon and it was good for that too. Nature’s Metropolis , Cronon, probably recommended by someone on Metafilter.
posted by clew at 10:31 AM on July 3, 2022 [3 favorites]
Voters get angry about infrastructure they can’t drive on? Just guessing; personally I’d feel much happier on roads with fewer heavy trucks.
Also, it seems to me that we have seriously changed the pattern of how material flows through the world in the last ?30? years. There used to be production in many more places, and maybe many-to-many networks are hard enough to constantly reschedule that using trucks made more sense than trains.
There’s a really good book on the physical rise of Chicago as an intermediary between the entire Midwest and (functionally) New York. Lots of plans foundered on the geometry of transport, which changed as technology changed. I read it as a Seattlite thinking about UPS and Boeing and Amazon and it was good for that too. Nature’s Metropolis , Cronon, probably recommended by someone on Metafilter.
posted by clew at 10:31 AM on July 3, 2022 [3 favorites]
I'm confused by the wording in this press release. The rule applies to trucks manufactured in California? Registered in? Operating in?
posted by neuron at 10:53 AM on July 3, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by neuron at 10:53 AM on July 3, 2022 [1 favorite]
For people wondering about battery weight and range, note that the press release says:
all zero-emission short-haul drayage fleet in ports and railyards by 2035, and zero-emission “last-mile” delivery trucks and vans by 2040
The first category is repeated, short-distance heavy haul. The second is short-to-medium distance light haul. Note they aren't talking about over the road truckers - pure EV technology definitely isn't there for most interstate cargo, at least not yet. However, I'd say we are already there when it comes to the categories they've chosen: an EV truck like the Freightliner Cascadia can do over 150 miles per charge for their base models assuming highway speeds, so the low-speed applications inside ports will likely do better. Something like that would also be good for in-town freight delivery. For smaller stuff, the Ford e-transit and other battery EV vans have been on the market for a little while at this point and are seeing adoption.
posted by redct at 10:57 AM on July 3, 2022 [5 favorites]
all zero-emission short-haul drayage fleet in ports and railyards by 2035, and zero-emission “last-mile” delivery trucks and vans by 2040
The first category is repeated, short-distance heavy haul. The second is short-to-medium distance light haul. Note they aren't talking about over the road truckers - pure EV technology definitely isn't there for most interstate cargo, at least not yet. However, I'd say we are already there when it comes to the categories they've chosen: an EV truck like the Freightliner Cascadia can do over 150 miles per charge for their base models assuming highway speeds, so the low-speed applications inside ports will likely do better. Something like that would also be good for in-town freight delivery. For smaller stuff, the Ford e-transit and other battery EV vans have been on the market for a little while at this point and are seeing adoption.
posted by redct at 10:57 AM on July 3, 2022 [5 favorites]
it seems to me that we have seriously changed the pattern of how material flows through the world in the last ?30? years. There used to be production in many more places
Yes. What happened? Why everything in America is Made In China now.
The rule applies to trucks manufactured in California? Registered in? Operating in?
My reading is Manufactured in (although there can't be many of those) and Registered in (because that's what the state controls, with its DMV). Couldn't be Operated in -- would non-Evs be turned away at the state line? Maybe, some day. And another case with state control would be vehicles Sold in California; why the article mentions fleet sales.
posted by Rash at 12:25 PM on July 3, 2022 [2 favorites]
Yes. What happened? Why everything in America is Made In China now.
The rule applies to trucks manufactured in California? Registered in? Operating in?
My reading is Manufactured in (although there can't be many of those) and Registered in (because that's what the state controls, with its DMV). Couldn't be Operated in -- would non-Evs be turned away at the state line? Maybe, some day. And another case with state control would be vehicles Sold in California; why the article mentions fleet sales.
posted by Rash at 12:25 PM on July 3, 2022 [2 favorites]
California is already used to this kind of thinking. The State already preeempted CAFE standards to force more electric and hybrid passenger vehicle sales, and Title 24 energy standards more or less forced the adoption of LEDs in the state well before the rest of the country. Largely, these “market making” laws functioned from the legislative POV- California told industry that in the state they had to sell a thing, supply chains adapted, and they became available. I’m interested to see if this would actually work as a strategy for heavy trucks, which aren’t consumer goods in the same way as light fixtures or personal vehicles.
I moved to California at the point in T24 where the ratcheting energy efficiency standards were going to more or less mandate LEDs in two or three years- the home building industry was in a panic because there wasn’t a wide enough variety of LED fixtures, they were expensive, and the light quality was variable. Fast forward and when it came to be, the products were there and prices dropped to a half or a third of where they had been. I’m sure the people who write these laws haven’t forgotten that lesson.
posted by q*ben at 2:25 PM on July 3, 2022 [7 favorites]
I moved to California at the point in T24 where the ratcheting energy efficiency standards were going to more or less mandate LEDs in two or three years- the home building industry was in a panic because there wasn’t a wide enough variety of LED fixtures, they were expensive, and the light quality was variable. Fast forward and when it came to be, the products were there and prices dropped to a half or a third of where they had been. I’m sure the people who write these laws haven’t forgotten that lesson.
posted by q*ben at 2:25 PM on July 3, 2022 [7 favorites]
My reading is Manufactured in (although there can't be many of those)
Electric vehicles are California's top export. California is the third largest exporter of vehicles in the country behind South Carolina and Michigan (by dollars). Kia and Mazda's North American headquarters are in California. California is 6th in the nation for number of autoworkers employed.
posted by oneirodynia at 7:20 PM on July 3, 2022 [5 favorites]
Electric vehicles are California's top export. California is the third largest exporter of vehicles in the country behind South Carolina and Michigan (by dollars). Kia and Mazda's North American headquarters are in California. California is 6th in the nation for number of autoworkers employed.
posted by oneirodynia at 7:20 PM on July 3, 2022 [5 favorites]
Pantographs seems like an obvious solution.
posted by Big Al 8000 at 8:27 PM on July 3, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by Big Al 8000 at 8:27 PM on July 3, 2022 [1 favorite]
What is it about modern government that makes them so allergic to just using trains for long haul and trunk routes? This is literally an electric freight train.
I mean the US does have the largest freight rail network in the world, it’s just largely private.
I’m sure more knowledgeable folks can weigh in, but I don’t know that this situation is the fault of government as much as industry (who yes, are heavily lobbying government). I suspect one factor in not expanding rail is a hidden corporate advantage in the current neoliberal “Public risk, private profit” model. As it stands the interstate highway system is funded by federal fuel/vehicle taxes and a weird combination of taxes, bonds, and tolls at the state level. Trucks burn lots of fuel and often pay higher fees, but also cause significantly higher wear to this system. Taxpayers are likely paying for a much higher portion of this infrastructure than they would for the equivalent rail infrastructure.
The US has also filled in quite a bit since much of the rail network was built a century ago, so you’re dealing with NIMBYism, a paucity of unincorporated land, and a lot of build-up directly over and around rail lines that would need to be moved/bought out. Acquiring the land required to expand rail is a ridiculously expensive enterprise, as can be seen from any number of public transit rail boondoggles in metro areas throughout the US. And most of the best corridors for expanding rail are already extremely heavily used, meaning you have to figure out how to move all that freight while you’re expanding.
I’m sure there are a ton of other factors but those all come to mind.
posted by aspersioncast at 8:51 PM on July 3, 2022 [4 favorites]
I mean the US does have the largest freight rail network in the world, it’s just largely private.
I’m sure more knowledgeable folks can weigh in, but I don’t know that this situation is the fault of government as much as industry (who yes, are heavily lobbying government). I suspect one factor in not expanding rail is a hidden corporate advantage in the current neoliberal “Public risk, private profit” model. As it stands the interstate highway system is funded by federal fuel/vehicle taxes and a weird combination of taxes, bonds, and tolls at the state level. Trucks burn lots of fuel and often pay higher fees, but also cause significantly higher wear to this system. Taxpayers are likely paying for a much higher portion of this infrastructure than they would for the equivalent rail infrastructure.
The US has also filled in quite a bit since much of the rail network was built a century ago, so you’re dealing with NIMBYism, a paucity of unincorporated land, and a lot of build-up directly over and around rail lines that would need to be moved/bought out. Acquiring the land required to expand rail is a ridiculously expensive enterprise, as can be seen from any number of public transit rail boondoggles in metro areas throughout the US. And most of the best corridors for expanding rail are already extremely heavily used, meaning you have to figure out how to move all that freight while you’re expanding.
I’m sure there are a ton of other factors but those all come to mind.
posted by aspersioncast at 8:51 PM on July 3, 2022 [4 favorites]
Lots of great numbers in that link, aspersioncast -- the US and EU are fairly close in both total length of track and people/km, but the EU is near its historical maximum of track length and the US has lost about half of what we once had.
Also the EU is half electrified and the US... isn't.
posted by clew at 9:01 PM on July 3, 2022 [4 favorites]
Also the EU is half electrified and the US... isn't.
posted by clew at 9:01 PM on July 3, 2022 [4 favorites]
Yeah the difference in electrification really jumped out at me too - requiring that freight trains switch to renewables would probably make a more significant emissions dent in the US than I’d have thought. You also don’t run into nearly the same mass/inertia issues with electric train engines you get from trucks, as someone implied above. Already pretty common for what passes for metro rail in the US, but way behind for freight.
posted by aspersioncast at 9:54 PM on July 3, 2022
posted by aspersioncast at 9:54 PM on July 3, 2022
Also, it seems to me that we have seriously changed the pattern of how material flows through the world in the last ?30? years.
The blog post cited in response, Why is Everything in America Made in China, features a very interesting premise:
a compilation of labor laws, minimum wage, regulations, and unions that make it impossible for some products to be made here. … almost everything you find in the United States is now made in China or another country that does not have problems with any of those things.
I share the author's implicit premise, that globalizing extremely unequal economies on purely capitalist terms leads to a race to the bottom, but I think they miss the plot when they blame everyone but corporate management. The pattern of material flowing through the world didn't change because of American unions, or minimum wages, both of which have declined precipitously over the same time frame that globalization has soared. I suggest that it changed because of containerization, GATT and NAFTA and WTO and China's 2001 entry into WTO, the financialization of American businesses as epitomized by Jack Welch (y-sh"-u)—the same greed that enforces the disastrous status quo of trucks over trains for long-distance freight in the US.
P.S. The Made in China post features a prescient (2013) conclusion:
People like Donald Trump have suggested placing an import tax on China to level the playing field.
posted by PresidentOfDinosaurs at 12:40 AM on July 4, 2022
The blog post cited in response, Why is Everything in America Made in China, features a very interesting premise:
a compilation of labor laws, minimum wage, regulations, and unions that make it impossible for some products to be made here. … almost everything you find in the United States is now made in China or another country that does not have problems with any of those things.
I share the author's implicit premise, that globalizing extremely unequal economies on purely capitalist terms leads to a race to the bottom, but I think they miss the plot when they blame everyone but corporate management. The pattern of material flowing through the world didn't change because of American unions, or minimum wages, both of which have declined precipitously over the same time frame that globalization has soared. I suggest that it changed because of containerization, GATT and NAFTA and WTO and China's 2001 entry into WTO, the financialization of American businesses as epitomized by Jack Welch (y-sh"-u)—the same greed that enforces the disastrous status quo of trucks over trains for long-distance freight in the US.
P.S. The Made in China post features a prescient (2013) conclusion:
People like Donald Trump have suggested placing an import tax on China to level the playing field.
posted by PresidentOfDinosaurs at 12:40 AM on July 4, 2022
I think California's legislation on the banning of gas engines from lawn equipment from 2024 - will actually have a bigger beneficial impact. Lawnmowers, leaf blowers, chainsaws and the like have - to date - been largely exempt from the emissions standards that are assigned to things with bigger engines. I think intuitively, we believe that smaller engines must be innocent when viewed alongside those of bigger vehicles: but we would be wrong - the emissions from these things is equivalent to California having 3 times more cars on the road than it actually does. - And so for the rest of the world too of course. That impact will be considerably greater than that of changing over trucks to zero emissions (and anybody disturbed by a neighbour's petrol leaf blower, will also be happy).
posted by rongorongo at 4:47 AM on July 4, 2022 [8 favorites]
posted by rongorongo at 4:47 AM on July 4, 2022 [8 favorites]
all zero-emission short-haul drayage fleet in ports and railyards by 2035, and zero-emission “last-mile” delivery trucks and vans by 2040
This makes a lot of sense. Drayage vehicle fleets are much more easily electrified since you can build them with small batteries and just over-provision. I.e. if your port needs 50 drayage trucks operating, get 60 electric ones and just count on some charging at any given time, this is just an operations optimisation.
These also create a lot of local air pollution.
Longer distance trucks may well see hydrogen used. Many of the downsides of hydrogen don't apply in the same way to trucks as they do to passenger cars. Yes, hydrogen is expensive but batteries are a big capital cost, I've seen a lot of models where it works pretty well even with expensive hydrogen.
posted by atrazine at 5:17 AM on July 4, 2022 [1 favorite]
This makes a lot of sense. Drayage vehicle fleets are much more easily electrified since you can build them with small batteries and just over-provision. I.e. if your port needs 50 drayage trucks operating, get 60 electric ones and just count on some charging at any given time, this is just an operations optimisation.
These also create a lot of local air pollution.
Longer distance trucks may well see hydrogen used. Many of the downsides of hydrogen don't apply in the same way to trucks as they do to passenger cars. Yes, hydrogen is expensive but batteries are a big capital cost, I've seen a lot of models where it works pretty well even with expensive hydrogen.
posted by atrazine at 5:17 AM on July 4, 2022 [1 favorite]
Longer distance trucks may well see hydrogen used
Anhydrous ammonia is also a potentially interesting energy carrier for heavy transport, especially given the large overlap between its material-handling requirements and those of LPG. I would expect quite a lot of existing refuelling infrastructure to be modifiable for ammonia delivery at very low cost.
Existing diesel engines can apparently be persuaded to run on the stuff as well, and modifying a diesel engine costs a lot less than redesigning and replacing a whole truck.
posted by flabdablet at 5:56 AM on July 4, 2022
Anhydrous ammonia is also a potentially interesting energy carrier for heavy transport, especially given the large overlap between its material-handling requirements and those of LPG. I would expect quite a lot of existing refuelling infrastructure to be modifiable for ammonia delivery at very low cost.
Existing diesel engines can apparently be persuaded to run on the stuff as well, and modifying a diesel engine costs a lot less than redesigning and replacing a whole truck.
posted by flabdablet at 5:56 AM on July 4, 2022
Existing diesel engines can apparently be persuaded to run on the stuff as well, and modifying a diesel engine costs a lot less than redesigning and replacing a whole truck.
If I wanted to have no tailpipe emissions from a fuel cell stack and have something that can burn in a slightly modified Diesel engine I'd just go with methanol.
posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock at 7:22 AM on July 4, 2022
If I wanted to have no tailpipe emissions from a fuel cell stack and have something that can burn in a slightly modified Diesel engine I'd just go with methanol.
posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock at 7:22 AM on July 4, 2022
Well yeah, chemically a little more docile maybe but a methanol powered fuel cell is going to be emitting carbon dioxide and that kind of misses the point. Burn ammonia and all you get is water, nitrogen and maybe a few flavours of nitrogen oxides if you've not paid enough attention to combustion chamber design.
Do ammonia powered fuel cells exist? Off to google that.
posted by flabdablet at 7:46 AM on July 4, 2022
Do ammonia powered fuel cells exist? Off to google that.
posted by flabdablet at 7:46 AM on July 4, 2022
Here in CA there is already a company called propel that offers biomass derived diesel fuel to consumers. They have 25-30 fueling stations across the state. Im sure they offer it to fleets, and there are other companies that do as well (NexGen Fuels is one).
"Diesel HPR is a high performance renewable fuel that meets the ASTM D975 petroleum diesel specification for use in all diesel engines. Refined from clean biomass sources, Diesel HPR improves engine performance while reducing harmful emissions. Diesel HPR does not contain biodiesel."
its got a very high cetane rating (75 as i recall) and has 70% lower greenhouse gas emissions than dino juice. California has already labeled it as a green fuel. Its also carbon neutral. Furthermore the ASTM D975 spec means it works in any existing diesel engine without modification. It's refinement process makes it not succumb to the pitfalls of conventional biodiesel, ie getting gummy in cold weather and clogging up fuel injectors.
It's an interesting technology that seems to get left out of the conversation a lot, and I wish it was talked about more. A lot of the diesels out there are super durable and will run for a million plus miles before they need to be replaced with an EV. I think development of these fuels is something that should be encouraged and adopted along side the development of EV tech.
a little more tech info here: https://afdc.energy.gov/fuels/emerging_hydrocarbon.html
posted by atom128 at 8:00 AM on July 4, 2022 [4 favorites]
"Diesel HPR is a high performance renewable fuel that meets the ASTM D975 petroleum diesel specification for use in all diesel engines. Refined from clean biomass sources, Diesel HPR improves engine performance while reducing harmful emissions. Diesel HPR does not contain biodiesel."
its got a very high cetane rating (75 as i recall) and has 70% lower greenhouse gas emissions than dino juice. California has already labeled it as a green fuel. Its also carbon neutral. Furthermore the ASTM D975 spec means it works in any existing diesel engine without modification. It's refinement process makes it not succumb to the pitfalls of conventional biodiesel, ie getting gummy in cold weather and clogging up fuel injectors.
It's an interesting technology that seems to get left out of the conversation a lot, and I wish it was talked about more. A lot of the diesels out there are super durable and will run for a million plus miles before they need to be replaced with an EV. I think development of these fuels is something that should be encouraged and adopted along side the development of EV tech.
a little more tech info here: https://afdc.energy.gov/fuels/emerging_hydrocarbon.html
posted by atom128 at 8:00 AM on July 4, 2022 [4 favorites]
We're creating a requirement for technology we don't have the infrastructure to support. I'm all for progress, but this just seems...backwards.
We didn't have the infrastructure for personal automobiles either, when they were introduced. And here we are.
posted by klanawa at 8:09 AM on July 4, 2022 [5 favorites]
We didn't have the infrastructure for personal automobiles either, when they were introduced. And here we are.
posted by klanawa at 8:09 AM on July 4, 2022 [5 favorites]
As long as the feedstocks for these things resemble kudzu and/or crop waste and/or sewage more strongly than forest, I'm all for them.
posted by flabdablet at 8:09 AM on July 4, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by flabdablet at 8:09 AM on July 4, 2022 [1 favorite]
Well yeah, chemically a little more docile maybe but a methanol powered fuel cell is going to be emitting carbon dioxide and that kind of misses the point.
Yeah but it's not tailpipe, it's dissolved in solution when it's put through a fuel cell stack. Makes it easier to pull back out and rehydrogenate using new processes using Ruthenium catalysts.
posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock at 8:39 AM on July 4, 2022
Yeah but it's not tailpipe, it's dissolved in solution when it's put through a fuel cell stack. Makes it easier to pull back out and rehydrogenate using new processes using Ruthenium catalysts.
posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock at 8:39 AM on July 4, 2022
Californians will literally invent novel chemistries for powering trucks instead of building walkable communities.
posted by schmod at 9:25 AM on July 4, 2022 [5 favorites]
posted by schmod at 9:25 AM on July 4, 2022 [5 favorites]
Unless the walkable community imports nothing and exports nothing, that’s not really relevant. This is for a concentration of material handling that is worth improving twice over: once because concentration makes it easier to engineer improvements, and again because the harms these particular trucks cause are concentrated on people who aren’t even receiving the material. It would be great if switching to rails and regenerative braking saved them the tire and brake pad pollution, too.
posted by clew at 10:54 AM on July 4, 2022 [4 favorites]
posted by clew at 10:54 AM on July 4, 2022 [4 favorites]
Just a note that, contrary to the link above, decarbonizing ammonia production is actually quite difficult currently because not only does the most common ammonia production process require huge amounts of energy (which could be renewably sourced) but the H in NH3 comes from fossil natural gas, which is also still the source for H in most hydrogen fuel cells. Decarbonized versions of H based fuels do not currently exist.
On the other hand, biomethane from landfills and wastewater treatment plants is a common, well developed technology already that could be scaled up nationwide with sufficient funding to construct the plants at every landfill and WWTP. Biomethane can be burned just like fossil natural gas because it's the same in chemical structure, just made from modern carbon, not ancient.
posted by hydropsyche at 11:46 AM on July 4, 2022 [3 favorites]
On the other hand, biomethane from landfills and wastewater treatment plants is a common, well developed technology already that could be scaled up nationwide with sufficient funding to construct the plants at every landfill and WWTP. Biomethane can be burned just like fossil natural gas because it's the same in chemical structure, just made from modern carbon, not ancient.
posted by hydropsyche at 11:46 AM on July 4, 2022 [3 favorites]
Meant to include this link: If our chronically dysfunctional county can use biomethane, so can yours.
posted by hydropsyche at 11:48 AM on July 4, 2022
posted by hydropsyche at 11:48 AM on July 4, 2022
I read something that US rail systems actually imported less during the trucking slow down and since, possibly because the for-profit rail systems are really badly managed and according to their executives, they didn't really want to compete with long-haul trucking (or assist) in the short-term. Sorry I don't have a source, but if you know how to search twitter, Sandypsj had a bunch of articles about it a few months ago.
Unless the walkable community imports nothing and exports nothing, that’s not really relevant.
Disagree. Lots of people want to live in California, so holding the status quo which prevents people from living there, and then being concerned about imports and exports is creating one problem and then trying to solve a different problem. Yeah, lots come to the east coast which is equally popular, but the train lines are already set up for that.
posted by The_Vegetables at 11:57 AM on July 4, 2022
Unless the walkable community imports nothing and exports nothing, that’s not really relevant.
Disagree. Lots of people want to live in California, so holding the status quo which prevents people from living there, and then being concerned about imports and exports is creating one problem and then trying to solve a different problem. Yeah, lots come to the east coast which is equally popular, but the train lines are already set up for that.
posted by The_Vegetables at 11:57 AM on July 4, 2022
Also this guy, Jake Gotta has a post about constructing housing around Long Beach, which is shorter and smaller than Miami in terms of building height, even though the weather is better and the shoreline is higher.
posted by The_Vegetables at 12:06 PM on July 4, 2022
posted by The_Vegetables at 12:06 PM on July 4, 2022
More people in California just increases the amount of stuff moving through these particular shipping nexuses, it does nothing to improve efficiencies or pollution in them.
Walkable neighborhoods should have better last-mile efficiency, but that’s a totally different problem.
posted by clew at 12:13 PM on July 4, 2022 [1 favorite]
Walkable neighborhoods should have better last-mile efficiency, but that’s a totally different problem.
posted by clew at 12:13 PM on July 4, 2022 [1 favorite]
More people in California just increases the amount of stuff moving through these particular shipping nexuses, it does nothing to improve efficiencies or pollution in them.
Sure it does, if the ports are literally shipping to people next door instead of in Phoenix or Texas. That's how ports worked in the olden days.
posted by The_Vegetables at 12:54 PM on July 4, 2022
Sure it does, if the ports are literally shipping to people next door instead of in Phoenix or Texas. That's how ports worked in the olden days.
posted by The_Vegetables at 12:54 PM on July 4, 2022
Janus Electric are an Australian manufacturer who convert prime movers from diesel to electric. They have hot-swappable battery packs and range of about 400km/250 miles on a full charge.
posted by the duck by the oboe at 8:07 PM on July 4, 2022 [3 favorites]
posted by the duck by the oboe at 8:07 PM on July 4, 2022 [3 favorites]
Janus is focused on what it says is a sweet spot in the industry – the need for all heavy vehicles to have a major engine rebuild after one million kilometres.That sounds salable. So does the argument that using swappable batteries means batteries can be upgraded independently of engines.
I’d never seen "prime mover" in that context, though, weird Aristotelian moment.
posted by clew at 9:10 PM on July 4, 2022
Californians will literally invent novel chemistries
…as opposed to most states, which will simply whine and weep desperately, oh, so desperately that nothing can be done, everything must conform to the Bible, White Power is unstoppable and there’s no point in trying anything because it’s all impossible Let Us All White People Pray for Our Own Salvation.
But not the salvation of, y’know, them. No, not them, that wouldn’t be Christ-centered.
There’s a reason California is by itself one of the largest economies on earth, and the place you’re statistically residing is not.
posted by aramaic at 9:13 PM on July 4, 2022 [2 favorites]
…as opposed to most states, which will simply whine and weep desperately, oh, so desperately that nothing can be done, everything must conform to the Bible, White Power is unstoppable and there’s no point in trying anything because it’s all impossible Let Us All White People Pray for Our Own Salvation.
But not the salvation of, y’know, them. No, not them, that wouldn’t be Christ-centered.
There’s a reason California is by itself one of the largest economies on earth, and the place you’re statistically residing is not.
posted by aramaic at 9:13 PM on July 4, 2022 [2 favorites]
No country has enough feedstock for anything like the biomethane they need. The UK already runs most of its sewage sludge through anaerobic digestors and has an awful lot of landfill biomethane capture, it doesn't and will not come close to meeting demand. Certainly we should do as much as possible (also to keep methane out of the atmosphere).
Ammonia is only being proposed as a potential energy carrier because hydrogen is hard to store and move around compared to existing liquid fuels. Yes, it would have to be made from electrolysed hydrogen and that introduces another lossy step in an already lossy process. I could see it being used for long distance shipping where hydrogen storage becomes a real issue. One issue with ammonia combustion is that it produces quite a lot of nitrogen oxides which is not ideal.
There’s a reason California is by itself one of the largest economies on earth, and the place you’re statistically residing is not.
Yes, geography.
posted by atrazine at 3:58 AM on July 5, 2022 [1 favorite]
Ammonia is only being proposed as a potential energy carrier because hydrogen is hard to store and move around compared to existing liquid fuels. Yes, it would have to be made from electrolysed hydrogen and that introduces another lossy step in an already lossy process. I could see it being used for long distance shipping where hydrogen storage becomes a real issue. One issue with ammonia combustion is that it produces quite a lot of nitrogen oxides which is not ideal.
There’s a reason California is by itself one of the largest economies on earth, and the place you’re statistically residing is not.
Yes, geography.
posted by atrazine at 3:58 AM on July 5, 2022 [1 favorite]
The over-the-top, hyper-patriotism and Chamber of Commerce style boosterism for California in this thread is just weird and creepy.
posted by octothorpe at 4:20 AM on July 5, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by octothorpe at 4:20 AM on July 5, 2022 [1 favorite]
atrazine--That's great that the UK makes so much use of biomethane. In the US, the county I live in is a rarity for getting biomethane from some of its landfills, and the county I work in is a rarity for having biodigesters that process a small portion of their wastewater sludge. Most of the US is making no use of these technologies at all. Meanwhile, we're still fracking up a storm and still have little regulation of methane leaks from fracking operations. There is so much low hanging fruit in fighting climate change.
posted by hydropsyche at 5:58 AM on July 5, 2022
posted by hydropsyche at 5:58 AM on July 5, 2022
so much low hanging fruit
and so little of it feeding the biodegesters
posted by flabdablet at 7:15 AM on July 5, 2022 [1 favorite]
and so little of it feeding the biodegesters
posted by flabdablet at 7:15 AM on July 5, 2022 [1 favorite]
the place you’re statistically residing is not.
I mean don’t like an 8th of Americans live in California?
posted by aspersioncast at 8:32 PM on July 5, 2022
I mean don’t like an 8th of Americans live in California?
posted by aspersioncast at 8:32 PM on July 5, 2022
Upthread a bit but is there a more information-dense version of the YouTube clip about gas-powered lawn equipment for those of us who can’t really sit through infotainment? Like are gas powered lawnmowers and string trimmers somehow so much more polluting than cars that banning them actually means something? I sat through enough to get that the bill was sponsored by that db from Palo Alto and my old East Bay angst immediately knee-jerked into assuming NIMBY bullshit.
I feel like banning lawns might be more significant. And banning leaf blowers entirely regardless of how they’re powered.
posted by aspersioncast at 8:43 PM on July 5, 2022 [1 favorite]
I feel like banning lawns might be more significant. And banning leaf blowers entirely regardless of how they’re powered.
posted by aspersioncast at 8:43 PM on July 5, 2022 [1 favorite]
Cheap light combustion engines are usually dirtier, yes, AIUI? "Two-stroke" the term of art but "cheap" might sum it up. Lots of partly-combusted emissions.
posted by clew at 8:53 PM on July 5, 2022
posted by clew at 8:53 PM on July 5, 2022
Lawn Maintenance and Climate Change (Princeton White Paper)
A 2014 study examined the VOC (combination of harmful gases) emissions of two stroke scooters, and it was found that the levels of emissions were 124 times higher from an idling scooter than from a car or truck. Four stroke engines are also used in some equipment, and while they are slightly more environmentally efficient, in total, they are also harmful. A four stroke lawnmower operating for one hour equates to a vehicle traveling for 500 miles.posted by hydropsyche at 4:12 AM on July 6, 2022 [4 favorites]
According to a study done by Quiet Communities, this equipment was responsible for the release of 26.7 million tons of pollutants in 2011. Furthermore, in the same year, another study demonstrated that a consumer grade leaf blower releases more hydrocarbons than a pick up truck or a sedan. EPA data has found that gas-powered lawn mowers make up five percent of total air pollution in the United States, amounting to even more in urban areas. A sobering warning issued by the California Air Resources Board in 2017 reported the following:
“By 2020, gas-powered leaf blowers, lawn mowers, and similar equipment in the state could produce more ozone pollution than all the millions of cars in California combined.”
Wow, wild. It makes sense that the levels of emissions would be higher per gallon of fuel burned, but the ratio of total fuel burned in lawn care vs. transport still seems like it would be far less significant than that.
posted by aspersioncast at 5:23 AM on July 6, 2022
posted by aspersioncast at 5:23 AM on July 6, 2022
It’s not just that two-stroke engines are leaky, it’s the enormous amount of engineering that’s been making most cars less tailpipe-polluting for decades. (For which, to a large degree, thank you California standards; note that that’s part of a 1970s-era practice of coastal CA cleaning up the air it sends west while inland CA keeps clean the water it sends east. Incomplete but real improvements, contingent on CA containing so much of its own watershed.)
Last time it snowed in my city, I was ambling through a white packed-down alley after a couple days and suddenly remembered how filthy three-days-old rutted snow was even twenty years ago, and it was worse yet when I was a kid.
posted by clew at 9:58 AM on July 6, 2022
Last time it snowed in my city, I was ambling through a white packed-down alley after a couple days and suddenly remembered how filthy three-days-old rutted snow was even twenty years ago, and it was worse yet when I was a kid.
posted by clew at 9:58 AM on July 6, 2022
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