Absurd Trolley Problems (aka, A Chidi-stomachache-generator)

July 6, 2022 4:25 AM

A series of increasingly absurd philosophical quandaries. CW: a lot of cartoon death by trolley, moral philosophy. What's the trolley problem? Who's Chidi? previously previouslier still more previously
posted by nightcoast (60 comments total)

I want to know if the (currently) 14% of people who would run over 5 lobsters to save a cat respect crustacean lives or wish to save dinner.

This is fun, thanks for posting!
posted by the primroses were over at 4:33 AM on July 6, 2022 [3 favorites]

75 hypothetical people and a trolley full of people circling in eternity. Fun!
(I think you dropped a negator, primroses?)
posted by cobaltnine at 4:36 AM on July 6, 2022 [1 favorite]

I did! Clearly I was too focused on solving philosophy to communicate clearly.

Anyway, going to drop that link to distract people who want to have a philosophical debate about issues that affect other people's lives in the future. Oh, you want me to define "woman" for you, internet stranger - please have a series of trolley problems and gtfo.
posted by the primroses were over at 4:44 AM on July 6, 2022 [1 favorite]

There is a runaway trolley barrelling down the railway tracks. Ahead, on the tracks, Thomas Ligotti is writing a short story titled The Town Manager. The trolley is headed straight for him. You are standing some distance away, next to a lever. If you pull this lever, the trolley will switch to a different set of tracks. However, you notice that you are on this track. You have two (and only two) options:

* Do nothing, in which case the trolley will hit Thomas Ligotti before he can write about the former Town Manager having the words "DUSTROY TROLY" branded onto his chest.
* Pull the lever, diverting the trolley onto the side track where it will hit you before you can make a joke about the injuries that can be caused by a shopping trolley.
Which is the more ethical option? Or, more simply: What is the right thing to do?
posted by polytope subirb enby-of-piano-dice at 4:51 AM on July 6, 2022

I picked the lobsters over the cat. I figured statistically that particular cat had already invited and evaded certain death countless times before but those mystified lobsters had simply been caught in a single circumstance as the unlucky pawns/prawns of fate.

My stomach hurts.
posted by mochapickle at 4:51 AM on July 6, 2022 [5 favorites]

Softball questions. "Would you take up arms against [billionaire] in the 1% chance that you might succeed in veering the course of the world closer to justice even though you would certainly be killed yourself, or do nothing" is playing out in real life right now with millions of players.
posted by seanmpuckett at 5:01 AM on July 6, 2022 [3 favorites]

I was going to make a joke about how if this were the MBTA the trolley would be moving slow enough that there's ample time to untie everyone from the tracks and would probably break down and stop before it even got near anyone anyway, but the MBTA has had a little trouble with runaway trains of late (albeit not with its trolleys, those have other issues.)
posted by RonButNotStupid at 5:09 AM on July 6, 2022 [3 favorites]

I want to know if the (currently) 14% of people who would run over 5 lobsters to save a cat respect crustacean lives or wish to save dinner.

I was thinking of a feral cat that was eating endangered seabird chicks, and lobsters from an overfished population. Since there was no realistic way for lobsters to get on the tracks, it seemed reasonable to be able to choose any lobsters and any cat.
posted by snofoam at 5:17 AM on July 6, 2022 [2 favorites]

I will take any excuse to link to the allegory of the trolley problem paradox again.
posted by a car full of lions at 5:23 AM on July 6, 2022 [8 favorites]

Woo hoo! My high score is 94 people!
posted by Nanukthedog at 5:40 AM on July 6, 2022 [2 favorites]

My favorite answer to these questions is "... so would you pull the lever? [a split second later] It's too late!"

Which isn't quite playing the game, but then again, what is?
posted by thandal at 5:44 AM on July 6, 2022 [1 favorite]

Ooh, my philosophy has a kill-count/high score!
posted by Braeburn at 5:55 AM on July 6, 2022

This seems like as good a place as any to plug my collection of trolley problem memes, which have long fascinated me. Please do add to it if you have any I haven't collected yet!
posted by wesleyac at 5:57 AM on July 6, 2022 [8 favorites]

Pull the lever, diverting the trolley onto the side track where it will hit you before you can make a joke about the injuries that can be caused by a shopping trolley.

There's a quiet symmetry in how around these parts we call shopping carts "carriages".
posted by RonButNotStupid at 5:59 AM on July 6, 2022

12% of people are psychopaths.
posted by CheeseDigestsAll at 6:03 AM on July 6, 2022 [1 favorite]

I have a strong sense that trolley problem memes are one of the more toxic memes out there; I mean, you'll feel like you're right no matter what you do, you get this little dopamine hero moment of self-justification by playing it out, and that's not how a healthy society works at all. Any competent mechanical engineer will tell you that if it comes to that moment, it's because hundreds of people we'll never meet have failed us.

I mean, memes are ultimately just bioweaponized ideology. But the whole point of a functioning modern society, of all our massive volumes of hard-won safety standards and the boring, routine and utterly necessary regulations is to make sure trolley problems never happen in the first place.
posted by mhoye at 6:06 AM on July 6, 2022 [6 favorites]

you'll feel like you're right no matter what you do

Is that how people actually feel about it? I felt...weird and nervous, trying to figure out whether to pull the lever, except in the most obvious scenarios. Even knowing they were cartoon people! Are people just immune to how harrowing an exercise it is?
posted by mittens at 6:09 AM on July 6, 2022 [11 favorites]

CheeseDigestsAll: "12% of people are psychopaths."

RIGHT???
posted by adamrice at 6:11 AM on July 6, 2022

Even in these, still very simple trolley problems, I have difficulty accepting the premise. Like the one where it asks you if you would pull the lever to speed up the trolley and potentially reduce the pain of their deaths - but what if leaving the trolley slower allows for a greater chance of rescue? I know I'm supposed to accept it as-is, no chance of alternate endings, but my brain refuses to! Are the sentient robots connected to the cloud and therefore not really dead? Do they actually mean sapient robots? Is "my worst enemy" my personal worst enemy or, like, a force of evil in the world (I'd make different decisions!)
posted by stillnocturnal at 6:17 AM on July 6, 2022 [8 favorites]

But the whole point of a functioning modern society, of all our massive volumes of hard-won safety standards and the boring, routine and utterly necessary regulations is to make sure trolley problems never happen in the first place.

Sounds like mhoye is defending pointless red tape produced by meddling bureaucrats! /hamburger

My old job involved safety inspections of facilities. You might be depressed to hear how many managers declared it was no big deal to, say, use the fire exits for storage because “We’ve never even had a fire here!”
posted by ricochet biscuit at 6:19 AM on July 6, 2022 [2 favorites]

I know I'm supposed to accept it as-is, no chance of alternate endings, but my brain refuses to!

This is the only correct response.
posted by mhoye at 6:20 AM on July 6, 2022 [1 favorite]

"12% of people are psychopaths."

Nah, 1% of people are psychopaths. The other 11% are trolls.
posted by nat at 6:22 AM on July 6, 2022 [4 favorites]

The cat vs. lobster problem is easy, as you’re only taking one of the cat’s nine lives.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 6:24 AM on July 6, 2022 [3 favorites]

Honestly, I just like pulling levers
posted by aubilenon at 6:30 AM on July 6, 2022 [13 favorites]

I guess it’s time to link to this old favourite again as well. A New Trolley Problem.
posted by Proofs and Refutations at 6:38 AM on July 6, 2022 [2 favorites]

I'm not a trolley switch operator. I do not understand the operation of trolley switches. But I do know that meddling with dangerous transportation safety infrastructure without taking the time to understand it is a really bad idea. Given the universally blood-soaked nature of trolley switch operations, I'd say it's not a job anyone should take; Normally I'd assume its one of those things where people only take the job because of capitalism or whatever, but trolleys are often operated by governments with no profit expected, so... I guess it's a difficult problem.

Even so, you'd never catch me near a trolley switch.
posted by surlyben at 7:00 AM on July 6, 2022 [4 favorites]

So, this is ranging off topic, but is the text on that page actually moving slightly, or is my eye-sight developing some kind of very odd problem?
posted by jacquilynne at 7:11 AM on July 6, 2022

I want to know if the (currently) 14% of people who would run over 5 lobsters to save a cat respect crustacean lives or wish to save dinner.

I just like cats and lobsters equally as much. If the ratio had been reversed, I'd have saved the cats.
posted by The_Vegetables at 7:20 AM on July 6, 2022 [1 favorite]

I don't like trolley problems because they encourage people to think of themselves as the one decides who lives and who dies. Also, they don't have anything to do with almost all of the moral decisions people make in the real world.
posted by Nancy Lebovitz at 7:23 AM on July 6, 2022 [3 favorites]

I have difficulty accepting the premise. Like the one where it asks you if you would pull the lever to speed up the trolley and potentially reduce the pain of their deaths - but what if leaving the trolley slower allows for a greater chance of rescue?

As soon as you start thinking that far into it, they're all stupid. As a simple f'r'instance, you could derail the trolley by pulling the switch after the first axle and before the second.
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 7:33 AM on July 6, 2022 [1 favorite]

This may be a derail, which normally I would avoid, but given the post, derails are kind of on-topic, the trolley problem was invented as a response to the abortion debate of the 1960s. I don't know enough about the precise context to say, but it does make me wonder if any of the comments in this thread are (presumably unintentional) milkshake ducks.
posted by surlyben at 7:35 AM on July 6, 2022

Suppose you could improve someone’s life by making a supportive comment, or you could engage in mean-spirited lulz that are likely to go viral and deliver mild amusement to many at the expense of misery to your target. The Internet Troll-y problem.
posted by fantabulous timewaster at 7:44 AM on July 6, 2022 [15 favorites]

Suck it, robots!
posted by kirkaracha at 8:11 AM on July 6, 2022 [1 favorite]

Yikes I already messed up on level 3 and accidentally killed everyone for the cash (I somehow read it as the opposite). I feel like a monster. Will make sure to avoid any future jobs in the trolley industry.
posted by randomnity at 8:25 AM on July 6, 2022 [1 favorite]

So, this is ranging off topic, but is the text on that page actually moving slightly, or is my eye-sight developing some kind of very odd problem?

It is moving around very slightly, yes. No need to question your eyesight based on this.
posted by Merus at 8:39 AM on July 6, 2022 [1 favorite]

One of my favorite ever tweets:

I had GPT-3 generate new trolley problems, and wanted someone on Fiverr to illustrate them.

I first explained the base-scenario ("a trolley is about to kill 5 people on the main track", etc)

This is what they sent back, to see if they had the basic idea right.

posted by Jeanne at 8:50 AM on July 6, 2022 [7 favorites]

Surely they should have had DALL-E illustrate them, then such problems could have been avoided. Or created in much greater detail.
posted by jacquilynne at 8:59 AM on July 6, 2022 [1 favorite]

Thought experiments never seem useful, probably due to the lack of scientific control!

So:

A trolley is hurtling down a track. You can pull a lever to divert the trolley to another track, or do nothing, allowing the trolley to continue along its current path. Which do you do?
posted by aubilenon at 9:23 AM on July 6, 2022 [3 favorites]

You can pull a lever to divert the trolley to another track, or do nothing, allowing the trolley to continue along its current path.

Subsidize a suburban development model so the trolley slowly goes extinct versus cars due to lack of ridership?
posted by The_Vegetables at 9:26 AM on July 6, 2022

79.

Strategy: Do nothing as frequently as possible.

1. value no death over death

2. value no death over property, ideology, words

3. if death is on both tracks do nothing
posted by NoThisIsPatrick at 9:31 AM on July 6, 2022 [2 favorites]

I got the exact same result as cobaltnine.
posted by biogeo at 9:34 AM on July 6, 2022

If pulling the lever has no consequence, you should pull the lever, because pulling levers is fun.
posted by biogeo at 9:36 AM on July 6, 2022 [5 favorites]

Justice: What's the Right Thing To Do? (hour long yt lecture)
posted by shoesfullofdust at 10:09 AM on July 6, 2022

If pulling the lever has no consequence, you should pull the lever, because pulling levers is fun.


It has a consequence! It diverts the trolley!
posted by aubilenon at 10:11 AM on July 6, 2022 [2 favorites]

So the trolley has fun too?
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 10:17 AM on July 6, 2022 [5 favorites]

Like the one where it asks you if you would pull the lever to speed up the trolley and potentially reduce the pain of their deaths - but what if leaving the trolley slower allows for a greater chance of rescue?

I left the people on the circular track going around in circles forever, my reasoning being that by doing so, I was giving them infinite time to come up with their own alternative solution to being stuck on a trolley.

This seems like as good a place as any to plug my collection of trolley problem memes, which have long fascinated me.

Those are great. I love the "i am experiencing the most valid trauma in this trolley problem" one.
posted by mstokes650 at 10:18 AM on July 6, 2022 [2 favorites]

had to bale about 7 rounds in. Chidi stomachache?

also a car full of lions that trolley paradox allegory is so amazing!!
posted by supermedusa at 10:19 AM on July 6, 2022 [1 favorite]

I got as low as 44, but I killed hypothetical babies. Which I guess is fine?
posted by fmoralesc at 11:27 AM on July 6, 2022 [1 favorite]

wesleyac - here's one from the wake of the Uvalde shooting.
posted by Rumple at 1:18 PM on July 6, 2022

As soon as you start thinking that far into it, they're all stupid.

Might I refer you all to the name of the page.
posted by solotoro at 1:44 PM on July 6, 2022

"As a simple f'r'instance, you could derail the trolley by pulling the switch after the first axle and before the second."

That's always my answer to these. Derail the fucker!
posted by tavella at 2:35 PM on July 6, 2022

I secretly packed all trolleys with enough nitroglycerin to blow up everyone if they derail.
posted by biogeo at 2:46 PM on July 6, 2022 [3 favorites]

That's always my answer to these. Derail the fucker!

Maybe slow-walking Jones could get a scooter or bike and get there before Salty Sam ties Sweet Sue to the trolley tracks. Then Jones and Salty-Sam could solve this through communication.
posted by The_Vegetables at 2:48 PM on July 6, 2022 [2 favorites]

Ruthless utilitarianism led me to a score of 41 deaths. I'm assuming I could have got it down further but for the cat.

My greatest destructive act by far though was allowing 5 clones of myself to roam the earth in my absence.
posted by some loser at 3:22 PM on July 6, 2022 [3 favorites]

I accidentally killed the cat because up until that point I'd been pulling the lever and it had become habit. Never attribute malice (or psychothapy) 'n all that
posted by plasmatron7 at 4:34 PM on July 6, 2022 [2 favorites]

My utilitarianism is more ruthless than yours at 37 deaths. I might have done better, but I saved the fluffy cat instead of the lobsters. Also, 5 people 100 years from now are going to have a bad day.
posted by Horkus at 6:19 PM on July 6, 2022 [4 favorites]

Fred & Geoffrey Hoyle have a story concerning the issue of introducing a Mobius strip into the operation of a subway network. I have it somewhere and read it many moons ago. Perhaps someone has a link to it somewhere? I have looked in my books and looked on line to no avail. Not even sure if the title contains 'Mobius' or not but it enthralled me as a teen....
posted by IndelibleUnderpants at 7:56 PM on July 6, 2022 [1 favorite]

There's a famous short story "A Subway Named Mobius," but it was written by Armin Joseph Deutsch, not the Hoyles
posted by cheshyre at 6:02 AM on July 7, 2022 [1 favorite]

Last night I dreamed about death penalty cases as trolley problems:

Do nothing and you execute an innocent man; pull the lever to exonerate them, which also delays (or prevents) the execution of a heinous murderer.

Do nothing and the execution will likely cause excruciating pain; pull the lever for delayed but humane deaths. Or possibly pulling the lever reduces the sentence to life without parole.

I wonder whether this framing would change public opinion.

Sadly, I doubt it.
posted by cheshyre at 6:19 AM on July 7, 2022

I just thought of one after hearing so many economists pine for it in the past few weeks:

would you pull the lever to:
ruin 1 person's life --lose their job, no benefits, ruin their health, screw over their housing situation, punish their kids, etc.

to:
prevent 8 people from having to pay a slightly more for stuff, and 1 person to get a bonus larger than the one who was laid off's entire salary and benefits package?

or:
do nothing, since 9 people having to pay more for stuff isn't that bad, and the 1 person gets a slightly smaller bonus.

economists love pulling that lever so hard it breaks.
posted by The_Vegetables at 7:25 AM on July 8, 2022