Your Uber is Conniving
July 10, 2022 11:14 AM Subscribe
This is my surprised face.
posted by acb at 11:33 AM on July 10, 2022 [38 favorites]
posted by acb at 11:33 AM on July 10, 2022 [38 favorites]
I guess, I mean I watched the first episode or two of the mini-series about the founding of Uber, and it seems like while this investigation is bringing together all the actual proof, none of this was a secret at all. I don't feel like it was to me even while it was happening. I was reading news articles regularly about how Uber was flouting licensing laws and all manner of regulations.
I'm glad all this is being assembled into one place, but I really don't even have a shocked face about this.
posted by hippybear at 11:38 AM on July 10, 2022 [19 favorites]
I'm glad all this is being assembled into one place, but I really don't even have a shocked face about this.
posted by hippybear at 11:38 AM on July 10, 2022 [19 favorites]
Kalanick's quote about Biden in the article betrays a fundamental problem in western society: politicians do not see themselves as either the masters, or as even the servants of the people or the nation (hah!), but as the servants of the oligarchs.
I mean, the sheer lack of pride, of self-esteem, on Joe Biden's part, to be scolded by the likes of Kalanick. How am I ever supposed to respect a person who doesn't even respect themselves?
Such utter fecklessness is the gestation of the autocracy that is seizing the world. We see such gormless apparatchiks, and whether left or right, we long for officials that have at least the decency to assert themselves over these reckless assholes.
posted by LeRoienJaune at 11:47 AM on July 10, 2022 [31 favorites]
I mean, the sheer lack of pride, of self-esteem, on Joe Biden's part, to be scolded by the likes of Kalanick. How am I ever supposed to respect a person who doesn't even respect themselves?
Such utter fecklessness is the gestation of the autocracy that is seizing the world. We see such gormless apparatchiks, and whether left or right, we long for officials that have at least the decency to assert themselves over these reckless assholes.
posted by LeRoienJaune at 11:47 AM on July 10, 2022 [31 favorites]
Worth noting: in spite of all this cheating and skullduggery, Uber has never been profitable, losing multiple billions of dollars most years.
posted by jackbishop at 11:48 AM on July 10, 2022 [35 favorites]
posted by jackbishop at 11:48 AM on July 10, 2022 [35 favorites]
The sad thing of all of this is that taxis did need innovation and going in some of the app based directions, using GPS for locations, seeing dispatches and movement in real time, and advance knowledge of what vehicle is coming and who is in it has been one of the primary demand drivers of Uber/Lyft over traditional taxis.
When I was last in New York I got to use Curb instead of Uber and it was brilliant. I could pay taxi rates of a licensed taxi driver and work entirely within the regulated system but still get effectively the same experience as Uber. I want this sort of experience everywhere and I'm willing to pay for it. The taxi companies just need to move up into the 21st century.
Instead we got this greedy fucking ancap hellscape mess of a fucking system and this clusterfuck of stupid that we're now seeing in depth.
posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock at 12:14 PM on July 10, 2022 [73 favorites]
When I was last in New York I got to use Curb instead of Uber and it was brilliant. I could pay taxi rates of a licensed taxi driver and work entirely within the regulated system but still get effectively the same experience as Uber. I want this sort of experience everywhere and I'm willing to pay for it. The taxi companies just need to move up into the 21st century.
Instead we got this greedy fucking ancap hellscape mess of a fucking system and this clusterfuck of stupid that we're now seeing in depth.
posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock at 12:14 PM on July 10, 2022 [73 favorites]
If the rules were changed such that the penalties for these kinds of behaviors were born directly by those shareholders who had majority stake *at the time of the malfeasance* , i suspect we’d see less of these egregious shittings-on-society. Unfortunately we have optimized action-at-a-distance gambling, er, ‘investment’. Get in early, get your take, and get out with not a care any longer for what your ‘investment’ might beget. When the law’s written with practically the express purpose of making the commons easily exploitable for the enrichment of the few, there’s zero motivation to NOT try to step as far over the legal limit as possible.
I’m sure it’s naive but i suppose that if Kalanick somehow gets smacked down hard and brings down others with him, perhaps something good might come of it, but it won’t prevent the next many attempts unless the laws can be changed. Because 5 years from now the only ones who’ll care about any of Uber’s abhorrent behavior are the next Kalanicks who will have studied this while thinking, “lemme learn how to top that, but not get caught.”
posted by armoir from antproof case at 12:57 PM on July 10, 2022 [19 favorites]
I’m sure it’s naive but i suppose that if Kalanick somehow gets smacked down hard and brings down others with him, perhaps something good might come of it, but it won’t prevent the next many attempts unless the laws can be changed. Because 5 years from now the only ones who’ll care about any of Uber’s abhorrent behavior are the next Kalanicks who will have studied this while thinking, “lemme learn how to top that, but not get caught.”
posted by armoir from antproof case at 12:57 PM on July 10, 2022 [19 favorites]
I mean, the sheer lack of pride, of self-esteem, on Joe Biden's part, to be scolded by the likes of Kalanick. How am I ever supposed to respect a person who doesn't even respect themselves?
I rather doubt that Biden was ever told by his staff that some tech bro was getting steamed that he was running late.
posted by senor biggles at 12:59 PM on July 10, 2022 [23 favorites]
I rather doubt that Biden was ever told by his staff that some tech bro was getting steamed that he was running late.
posted by senor biggles at 12:59 PM on July 10, 2022 [23 favorites]
While I would love to see Uber publicly burned to the ground for this, I know it won’t happen because of how how politically important the major figures are, how much it would affect its ground-level workers lives, and we have no political will to at least make it look like we’re doing the Right Thing.
Stick a fork in it, we’re done.
posted by JustSayNoDawg at 1:28 PM on July 10, 2022 [3 favorites]
Stick a fork in it, we’re done.
posted by JustSayNoDawg at 1:28 PM on July 10, 2022 [3 favorites]
I’m sure if the message from Travis was relayed to Biden he had a good laugh about it. Knowing
Biden he probably made him wait longer.
posted by interogative mood at 1:46 PM on July 10, 2022 [13 favorites]
Biden he probably made him wait longer.
posted by interogative mood at 1:46 PM on July 10, 2022 [13 favorites]
I suspect that kill switch stuff could lead to some nasty repercussions in Europe.
There's revenue based fines and potential jail time involved for even inadvertently obstructing a competition authority raid (link).
posted by MattWPBS at 1:48 PM on July 10, 2022 [3 favorites]
There's revenue based fines and potential jail time involved for even inadvertently obstructing a competition authority raid (link).
posted by MattWPBS at 1:48 PM on July 10, 2022 [3 favorites]
Greyball Is five years old now, and I don’t recall any material consequences to it. No reason to think they’d change; software is a byproduct of culture, and that company is rotten to its core.
posted by mhoye at 2:11 PM on July 10, 2022 [3 favorites]
posted by mhoye at 2:11 PM on July 10, 2022 [3 favorites]
Ripley (Uber's "kill switch") previously on the Blue.
posted by NoxAeternum at 2:13 PM on July 10, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by NoxAeternum at 2:13 PM on July 10, 2022 [2 favorites]
And it seems that Uber's answer here is, unsurprisingly, to speedbump Travis under this particular Greyhound.
posted by NoxAeternum at 2:23 PM on July 10, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by NoxAeternum at 2:23 PM on July 10, 2022 [2 favorites]
"Hear me out, Uber... but for corruption!"
"That's just Uber."
posted by othrechaz at 3:01 PM on July 10, 2022 [9 favorites]
"That's just Uber."
posted by othrechaz at 3:01 PM on July 10, 2022 [9 favorites]
Greyball Is five years old now, and I don’t recall any material consequences to it.
TBH, nor should there be. Yes, it's scummy, but labeling police is honestly a service to the drivers. It'd also likely be a violation of first amendment rights to prevent them from communicating that certain accounts are police rather than legitimate customers.
posted by explosion at 3:14 PM on July 10, 2022 [1 favorite]
TBH, nor should there be. Yes, it's scummy, but labeling police is honestly a service to the drivers. It'd also likely be a violation of first amendment rights to prevent them from communicating that certain accounts are police rather than legitimate customers.
posted by explosion at 3:14 PM on July 10, 2022 [1 favorite]
Wasn't the purpose of Greyball to defraud the government?
posted by Pope Guilty at 3:18 PM on July 10, 2022 [4 favorites]
posted by Pope Guilty at 3:18 PM on July 10, 2022 [4 favorites]
the cab-hailing app, in some countries, found itself battling entrenched and monopolised taxi fleets with cosy relationships with city authorities. Uber often characterised its opponents in the regulated taxi markets as operating a “cartel”That’s completely accurate in the case of my city, though. Sydney taxis used to be so crooked that they operated with their own monopolist payments system (cabcharge) on which there was a 10% surcharge. The ‘plates’ system was notorious as a protected sector. It was a cartel so blatant and it victimised the drivers so badly that when Uber opened operations everybody—across the political spectrum—said, well, these guys are crooks but at least they’re competition.
posted by Fiasco da Gama at 3:32 PM on July 10, 2022 [29 favorites]
It was a cartel so blatant and it victimised the drivers so badly that when Uber opened operations everybody—across the political spectrum—said, well, these guys are crooks but at least they’re competition.
Co-signing. In Sydney, of the two sets of crooks, Uber (or literally any other rideshare service) delivered a better and cheaper service, so nobody stood up for the cabs and Uber won. Cabs became the last possible transportation choice.
More recently, the cabs have started monitoring Uber surge prices and them trying to scam people into paying those prices instead of the meter price, before getting in. Because people didn't hate them enough already.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 4:26 PM on July 10, 2022 [7 favorites]
Co-signing. In Sydney, of the two sets of crooks, Uber (or literally any other rideshare service) delivered a better and cheaper service, so nobody stood up for the cabs and Uber won. Cabs became the last possible transportation choice.
More recently, the cabs have started monitoring Uber surge prices and them trying to scam people into paying those prices instead of the meter price, before getting in. Because people didn't hate them enough already.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 4:26 PM on July 10, 2022 [7 favorites]
The airport taxi franchise in my city is so bad that I regularly (at 1am) walk the half mile from the terminal to the airport front gate so I can pick up an Uber on the main road. If all this underhanded dealing by Uber drove the taxi company under I would have no complaints and nor, I think, would anyone else.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 4:31 PM on July 10, 2022 [5 favorites]
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 4:31 PM on July 10, 2022 [5 favorites]
Greyball Is five years old now, and I don’t recall any material consequences to it.
TBH, nor should there be. Yes, it's scummy, but labeling police is honestly a service to the drivers. It'd also likely be a violation of first amendment rights to prevent them from communicating that certain accounts are police rather than legitimate customers.
Is that also the case if your employees are breaking other laws at you're corporate direction, like giving or soliciting bribes? Helping them cover it up isn't just good business, it's part of being a good employer?
I get the instinct to protect the laborer, but Uber exploits its laborers. in this particular conflict your picking either the corporation or the state when you take sides.
posted by mark k at 5:36 PM on July 10, 2022 [5 favorites]
TBH, nor should there be. Yes, it's scummy, but labeling police is honestly a service to the drivers. It'd also likely be a violation of first amendment rights to prevent them from communicating that certain accounts are police rather than legitimate customers.
Is that also the case if your employees are breaking other laws at you're corporate direction, like giving or soliciting bribes? Helping them cover it up isn't just good business, it's part of being a good employer?
I get the instinct to protect the laborer, but Uber exploits its laborers. in this particular conflict your picking either the corporation or the state when you take sides.
posted by mark k at 5:36 PM on July 10, 2022 [5 favorites]
Uber isn't great, but they're not at the top of the list of people I'd have up against a wall when the revolution starts, or whatever.
First, the industry that Uber disrupted? It was shit, at least here in the DC area. Just absolutely abysmal, an obvious, textbook example of regulatory capture. DC taxis didn't even have meters until 2008; the rate was more or less whatever the driver thought they could get out of you. Dulles airport had an outright, open monopoly on taxis by their captive "Washington Flyer" service, which is sadly not quite dead yet but hopefully on its way. The Arlington and Fairfax taxis were at least notionally civilized (meters, occasional ability to pay with credit cards, most cars seemed like they'd pass inspection) but expensive and dispatched seemingly at random, totally unsuitable for, say, getting to the airport or a doctor's appointment.
So, yeah, the public was pretty primed for anything better. And Uber provided a genuinely better product. Illegal, sure. But still better than taxis.
I don't think there's much to be gained by tut-tutting at Uber for flouting regulations, particularly since the regulations in this case basically existed largely to protect the shithole incumbents. Uber would never have gotten anywhere by playing nice with the taxi companies, who were sitting comfortably behind a vast moat of bureaucracy that they'd helped design and create.
I think the lesson to be taken from Uber is: this is how the game is played. If you really want to change shit, playing nice is probably not going to work. "Working within the system" is probably not going to work. If the game is rigged against you---and it almost always is---playing by the rules probably won't get you a win.
Uber basically laid out a step-by-step playbook for how you can fuck an entire industry sideways and get away with it. First, people have to really hate the industry; second, you have to have a better product; third, you get the product out to consumers, by hook or by crook, as fast as you can; fourth, when the incumbents notice and the regulators come for you, turn your now-legions of fans on them and melt their elected bosses' telephones/inboxes/etc with hate mail until they back off. It seems to work really well. (Maybe not well enough to make money, but well enough to really fuck up an unpopular industry.)
Rather than wagging our collective fingers at them (which they won't notice or care about), I think it'd be more productive for people with ideas and ambition to learn from what they've done. Too many people with good ideas, especially social progressives, hamstring themselves with a misplaced belief in the sanctity of rule-following, and end up achieving little---exactly as intended by those who make the rules.
posted by Kadin2048 at 6:03 PM on July 10, 2022 [34 favorites]
First, the industry that Uber disrupted? It was shit, at least here in the DC area. Just absolutely abysmal, an obvious, textbook example of regulatory capture. DC taxis didn't even have meters until 2008; the rate was more or less whatever the driver thought they could get out of you. Dulles airport had an outright, open monopoly on taxis by their captive "Washington Flyer" service, which is sadly not quite dead yet but hopefully on its way. The Arlington and Fairfax taxis were at least notionally civilized (meters, occasional ability to pay with credit cards, most cars seemed like they'd pass inspection) but expensive and dispatched seemingly at random, totally unsuitable for, say, getting to the airport or a doctor's appointment.
So, yeah, the public was pretty primed for anything better. And Uber provided a genuinely better product. Illegal, sure. But still better than taxis.
I don't think there's much to be gained by tut-tutting at Uber for flouting regulations, particularly since the regulations in this case basically existed largely to protect the shithole incumbents. Uber would never have gotten anywhere by playing nice with the taxi companies, who were sitting comfortably behind a vast moat of bureaucracy that they'd helped design and create.
I think the lesson to be taken from Uber is: this is how the game is played. If you really want to change shit, playing nice is probably not going to work. "Working within the system" is probably not going to work. If the game is rigged against you---and it almost always is---playing by the rules probably won't get you a win.
Uber basically laid out a step-by-step playbook for how you can fuck an entire industry sideways and get away with it. First, people have to really hate the industry; second, you have to have a better product; third, you get the product out to consumers, by hook or by crook, as fast as you can; fourth, when the incumbents notice and the regulators come for you, turn your now-legions of fans on them and melt their elected bosses' telephones/inboxes/etc with hate mail until they back off. It seems to work really well. (Maybe not well enough to make money, but well enough to really fuck up an unpopular industry.)
Rather than wagging our collective fingers at them (which they won't notice or care about), I think it'd be more productive for people with ideas and ambition to learn from what they've done. Too many people with good ideas, especially social progressives, hamstring themselves with a misplaced belief in the sanctity of rule-following, and end up achieving little---exactly as intended by those who make the rules.
posted by Kadin2048 at 6:03 PM on July 10, 2022 [34 favorites]
How come I have a feeling that Uber is loosing money in the same way that Star Wars never made a profit?
posted by sammyo at 6:39 PM on July 10, 2022 [4 favorites]
posted by sammyo at 6:39 PM on July 10, 2022 [4 favorites]
Yes taxis needed a kick in the pants. But, the fiction of drivers being contractors rather than employees is not an innovation that's good. Employment law does not need disruption of this kind, rather strengthening.
posted by i_am_joe's_spleen at 6:44 PM on July 10, 2022 [23 favorites]
posted by i_am_joe's_spleen at 6:44 PM on July 10, 2022 [23 favorites]
Uber has never been profitable, losing multiple billions of dollars most years.
Uber can still go get fucked, not least of the reasons for which is their terrible treatment of drivers, but their core rideshare business has been (modestly) profitable for a few years now, IIRC. Their (financial) problem is that they keep dumping shitloads of money into Eats, e-scooters, and every other shiny thing that pops up on some executive's news feed. In that respect they're like Google without the cash cow.
How Eats isn't making them money hand over fist I can't quite figure out, what with them charging both the restaurant and the customer a substantial percentage on every order and hardly pay the drivers anything. Even Amazon wasn't as shitty when they were doing food delivery there for a bit. They actually paid hourly. Well, drivers were on the Flex platform, so they signed up for 2 or 4 hour blocks and got paid $30 or $60 in my market, plus tips except during the period where they were scamming the drivers and customers on the tips.
posted by wierdo at 6:46 PM on July 10, 2022 [1 favorite]
Uber can still go get fucked, not least of the reasons for which is their terrible treatment of drivers, but their core rideshare business has been (modestly) profitable for a few years now, IIRC. Their (financial) problem is that they keep dumping shitloads of money into Eats, e-scooters, and every other shiny thing that pops up on some executive's news feed. In that respect they're like Google without the cash cow.
How Eats isn't making them money hand over fist I can't quite figure out, what with them charging both the restaurant and the customer a substantial percentage on every order and hardly pay the drivers anything. Even Amazon wasn't as shitty when they were doing food delivery there for a bit. They actually paid hourly. Well, drivers were on the Flex platform, so they signed up for 2 or 4 hour blocks and got paid $30 or $60 in my market, plus tips except during the period where they were scamming the drivers and customers on the tips.
posted by wierdo at 6:46 PM on July 10, 2022 [1 favorite]
Too many people with good ideas, especially social progressives, hamstring themselves with a misplaced belief in the sanctity of rule-following, and end up achieving little
I mean, I don't think you're entirely wrong in the abstract here, but I think you're eliding some fairly key components that aren't really in the "transplant it so an Uber for Good can happen" ballpark:
* $25.2B in investment from a whole lot of notably-evil investors (even within the realm of VC investors willing to toss off $1B in the hopes of getting a 100x return)
* "Unions, regulations, & labor protections are potential energy -- to be broken as fuel" as ideology
* A melting-pot of institutional sexual harassment & racism that's so far mostly been matched/used as a blueprint by Palantir, Coinbase, Tesla, etc.
$25 billion dollars can buy a whole lot of runway handing out $20 bills & charging $10 for them, but I'm not sure that this playbook can be used for change deeper than "who gets to sit on top of the abusive industry while making sure different, less photogenic people get the brunt of the abuse?". "Let's out-capitalist the capitalists, surely the master's tools can dismantle the master's house this time!" needs a better poster child before I'm sold on the premise.
posted by CrystalDave at 7:16 PM on July 10, 2022 [17 favorites]
I mean, I don't think you're entirely wrong in the abstract here, but I think you're eliding some fairly key components that aren't really in the "transplant it so an Uber for Good can happen" ballpark:
* $25.2B in investment from a whole lot of notably-evil investors (even within the realm of VC investors willing to toss off $1B in the hopes of getting a 100x return)
* "Unions, regulations, & labor protections are potential energy -- to be broken as fuel" as ideology
* A melting-pot of institutional sexual harassment & racism that's so far mostly been matched/used as a blueprint by Palantir, Coinbase, Tesla, etc.
$25 billion dollars can buy a whole lot of runway handing out $20 bills & charging $10 for them, but I'm not sure that this playbook can be used for change deeper than "who gets to sit on top of the abusive industry while making sure different, less photogenic people get the brunt of the abuse?". "Let's out-capitalist the capitalists, surely the master's tools can dismantle the master's house this time!" needs a better poster child before I'm sold on the premise.
posted by CrystalDave at 7:16 PM on July 10, 2022 [17 favorites]
Co-signing. In Sydney, of the two sets of crooks, Uber (or literally any other rideshare service) delivered a better and cheaper service
Co-signing as well.
$500,000 for a medallion to drive a taxi, the cost of which gets amortized into the cost of every taxi ride you take? Seriously?
After Uber's innovation made the case for reform laws, it's now $55 per year for a taxi license in Victoria.
Once I was stuck somewhere with no public transport and had to make it to a store. The taxi driver cursed and abused me for wasting his time on such a short trip. I didn't dare call another taxi and had to make the return trip walking 40 minutes in the rain, in winter.
If an Uber tried that they'd lose their 4.5 star rating or whatever and they get kicked off the app.
Uber doesn't need to exist anymore. Boycott them. They busted the door wide open and a dozen other rideshare apps now exist on the market.
posted by xdvesper at 7:30 PM on July 10, 2022 [5 favorites]
Co-signing as well.
$500,000 for a medallion to drive a taxi, the cost of which gets amortized into the cost of every taxi ride you take? Seriously?
After Uber's innovation made the case for reform laws, it's now $55 per year for a taxi license in Victoria.
Once I was stuck somewhere with no public transport and had to make it to a store. The taxi driver cursed and abused me for wasting his time on such a short trip. I didn't dare call another taxi and had to make the return trip walking 40 minutes in the rain, in winter.
If an Uber tried that they'd lose their 4.5 star rating or whatever and they get kicked off the app.
Uber doesn't need to exist anymore. Boycott them. They busted the door wide open and a dozen other rideshare apps now exist on the market.
posted by xdvesper at 7:30 PM on July 10, 2022 [5 favorites]
How Eats isn't making them money hand over fist I can't quite figure out, what with them charging both the restaurant and the customer a substantial percentage on every order and hardly pay the drivers anything.
Because it's ridiculously inefficient labor. First of all the contract driver has to get to the restaurant wherever they are already. That's something a company driver doesn't have to do. They're already at the origination point. Let's say a restaurant is slammed during lunch or dinner rush. What's a company driver doing? Everything to help get those orders out until they have a batch of orders ready to go. What's a contract driver doing? Sitting around waiting. FOR A SINGLE ORDER. Which starts a chain of dominos. If that contract driver is waiting that driver isn't out on the road so they need another driver. Which means they have to pay insane acquisition costs to trick some poor sap into doing the work.
Like if I was trying to make an efficient delivery infrastructure I can have no worse way of doing it than having a bunch of people bouncing around point to point for individual orders but that's what we've somehow ended up with.
posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock at 7:33 PM on July 10, 2022 [19 favorites]
Because it's ridiculously inefficient labor. First of all the contract driver has to get to the restaurant wherever they are already. That's something a company driver doesn't have to do. They're already at the origination point. Let's say a restaurant is slammed during lunch or dinner rush. What's a company driver doing? Everything to help get those orders out until they have a batch of orders ready to go. What's a contract driver doing? Sitting around waiting. FOR A SINGLE ORDER. Which starts a chain of dominos. If that contract driver is waiting that driver isn't out on the road so they need another driver. Which means they have to pay insane acquisition costs to trick some poor sap into doing the work.
Like if I was trying to make an efficient delivery infrastructure I can have no worse way of doing it than having a bunch of people bouncing around point to point for individual orders but that's what we've somehow ended up with.
posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock at 7:33 PM on July 10, 2022 [19 favorites]
I believe the easier solution is to build viable public transit, easier than legislation at least, in a capitalist culture.
Denmark is also pretty capitalist (although less so and more sanely than the US so far), but transit is so amazing there it never occurred to me to wonder if they had Uber when I lived there.
I hate everything about Uber, including the rating system that holds the drivers prisoner and forces them to try to talk to you even when you hate it.
And here in the US I'm ashamed of how often I need something like Uber. I tried to ride the bus three weeks ago because my car has a flat and I can't afford to fix it (and am at high risk of towing because of that in my apt. complex).
I didn't have any cash in the house, but I always have change, so I carefully counted out enough to run my errand and got on the bus. The driver asked if I wanted a transfer and I said yes and took the ticket that popped out of the slot. I did not look at the ticket (MISTAKE #1) as I pocketed it.
Returning, I sat down at the bus stop and pulled out the ticket. That's when I realized it wasn't a transfer at all. It was a change card. I'd overpaid by five cents, and the driver hadn't clued me in that what I was grabbing was change, not a transfer. So here I am miles from home, with severe joint problems that limit mobility, and no way to buy a ticket online with my phone or at the stop and not so much as a dime, just a 5 cent card. Just then the bus showed up.
The driver pulled away from the curb as I was explaining what was happening and then he started yelling at me. He was incredibly rude and unkind (and this isn't the first time something similar has happened). If he hadn't already pulled away from the curb he said he would have made me get off. There was literally no one I could have called for help. If he'd put me off, my only option would have been Uber, because they let you pay with your phone. I was left feeling incredibly worthless, over a 75 cent fare (I get reduced fare because of disability and I also showed him the photo card we're forced to carry when we get that). It left me wish I'd called Uber instead, no matter how much I hate the system, and how many other things I could have spent the Uber fare on.
Because public transportation, where it exists in the US, is so fucking awful and fraught, space is made for private "solutions" like Uber, which should never ever be the case. The US half-asses any public service so badly that even when people are able to use them it's such a miserable experience that they don't.
I miss living in a European city where I have an affordable lejlighed minutes walk from my doctor, my pharmacy, a bakery, a fishmonger, a grocery, a variety store, a hardware store, and a fresh market. If anyone who lives in Nordic lands wants to marry me for my very excellent cooking skills and half my monthly income, hit me up. I'm not joking even a little bit.
Even when things weren't within a five minutes' walk, there was a bus stop right across the street and the bus came every ten minutes. It was safe and smelled nice and I never got harassed like I do in the US on public transit.
posted by liminal_shadows at 7:51 PM on July 10, 2022 [26 favorites]
Denmark is also pretty capitalist (although less so and more sanely than the US so far), but transit is so amazing there it never occurred to me to wonder if they had Uber when I lived there.
I hate everything about Uber, including the rating system that holds the drivers prisoner and forces them to try to talk to you even when you hate it.
And here in the US I'm ashamed of how often I need something like Uber. I tried to ride the bus three weeks ago because my car has a flat and I can't afford to fix it (and am at high risk of towing because of that in my apt. complex).
I didn't have any cash in the house, but I always have change, so I carefully counted out enough to run my errand and got on the bus. The driver asked if I wanted a transfer and I said yes and took the ticket that popped out of the slot. I did not look at the ticket (MISTAKE #1) as I pocketed it.
Returning, I sat down at the bus stop and pulled out the ticket. That's when I realized it wasn't a transfer at all. It was a change card. I'd overpaid by five cents, and the driver hadn't clued me in that what I was grabbing was change, not a transfer. So here I am miles from home, with severe joint problems that limit mobility, and no way to buy a ticket online with my phone or at the stop and not so much as a dime, just a 5 cent card. Just then the bus showed up.
The driver pulled away from the curb as I was explaining what was happening and then he started yelling at me. He was incredibly rude and unkind (and this isn't the first time something similar has happened). If he hadn't already pulled away from the curb he said he would have made me get off. There was literally no one I could have called for help. If he'd put me off, my only option would have been Uber, because they let you pay with your phone. I was left feeling incredibly worthless, over a 75 cent fare (I get reduced fare because of disability and I also showed him the photo card we're forced to carry when we get that). It left me wish I'd called Uber instead, no matter how much I hate the system, and how many other things I could have spent the Uber fare on.
Because public transportation, where it exists in the US, is so fucking awful and fraught, space is made for private "solutions" like Uber, which should never ever be the case. The US half-asses any public service so badly that even when people are able to use them it's such a miserable experience that they don't.
I miss living in a European city where I have an affordable lejlighed minutes walk from my doctor, my pharmacy, a bakery, a fishmonger, a grocery, a variety store, a hardware store, and a fresh market. If anyone who lives in Nordic lands wants to marry me for my very excellent cooking skills and half my monthly income, hit me up. I'm not joking even a little bit.
Even when things weren't within a five minutes' walk, there was a bus stop right across the street and the bus came every ten minutes. It was safe and smelled nice and I never got harassed like I do in the US on public transit.
posted by liminal_shadows at 7:51 PM on July 10, 2022 [26 favorites]
I believe the easier solution is to build viable public transit, easier than legislation at least, in a capitalist culture.
I still believe that Uber had it SOOO CLOSE with Uber Pool. The problem was they were so focused on avoiding every recurring business cost and unloading every externality to everyone but themselves that they missed the forest through the trees. Imagine if they sent out an driver on an hourly paycheck in a 15 seater hybrid shuttle bus and put them basically on Uber Pool to work like a constant, dynamically routed bus route. Instead they tried to do it with 4 and 5 seater cars (because other people's cars are zero capex) and failed miserably.
posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock at 8:01 PM on July 10, 2022 [6 favorites]
I still believe that Uber had it SOOO CLOSE with Uber Pool. The problem was they were so focused on avoiding every recurring business cost and unloading every externality to everyone but themselves that they missed the forest through the trees. Imagine if they sent out an driver on an hourly paycheck in a 15 seater hybrid shuttle bus and put them basically on Uber Pool to work like a constant, dynamically routed bus route. Instead they tried to do it with 4 and 5 seater cars (because other people's cars are zero capex) and failed miserably.
posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock at 8:01 PM on July 10, 2022 [6 favorites]
When I was in college and grad school pre-Uber, it was common for the livery cabs that weren't allowed to pick up street hails to do so anyways at night. I got into multiple where the rear door handles had been removed and the driver had to get out and let you out. This was to prevent people from running on the fare. I also remember the guy in a van cab who was seriously tweaking when he picked a group of us up. I've never had anything close to this with a rideshare service. None the less, I hope Uber and its execs gets what they deserve. Im not holding my breath.
posted by nestor_makhno at 8:09 PM on July 10, 2022 [4 favorites]
posted by nestor_makhno at 8:09 PM on July 10, 2022 [4 favorites]
I think part of the problem with eats is their approximately 30% accuracy rate with even very simple orders.
posted by Jacen at 8:40 PM on July 10, 2022 [4 favorites]
posted by Jacen at 8:40 PM on July 10, 2022 [4 favorites]
I try to use licensed taxi cabs when I travel but in a lot of smaller markets there are either so few or they are so argumentative that I avoid it and take Uber. I do not take a taxi when I’m in Dallas anymore because the drivers I’ve had the past five years were horrible. Recently, my partner was literally chased down our street by a taxi driver who fled his vehicle on foot because he wanted a card, not cash. I always get a cab in my home airport (O’Hare) and have a decent ride 75% of the time. I’ve started to peer into the cab to make sure there’s either a Curb or Arro screen and I ask the driver if it’s working. I also had the realization that I can get out of a cab if I don’t feel comfortable—one dude kept yelling at me for my address and wouldn’t accept cross streets and I realized he was just a jerk. But lucky me, there were 50 cabs in line to pick up a fare, and I know not everyone has that access. The only cities I’ve been to where cabs have curb or arro is Chicago and NYC. In Chicago I’ve run across cab drivers who are either hard core lifers and great at their job or others that are just very angry. I think the rest left to drive for Uber/Lift.
Lately I’ve been calling cabs with the Curb app and it works fine. My ride into downtown is $25 with a cab/Curb and $35+ with Uber these days. I think people don’t realize how much prices have gone up or that there are a few other options. I’ve used Uber in a number of different countries and it’s so much easier to put the address in when you don’t speak the local language. It’s also great in smaller markets that can’t support a taxi fleet. I agree with others upthread that there’s no wonder people flock to these rideshare services when there’s been so much disinvestment in US public transportation for so long.
posted by Bunglegirl at 8:45 PM on July 10, 2022 [8 favorites]
Lately I’ve been calling cabs with the Curb app and it works fine. My ride into downtown is $25 with a cab/Curb and $35+ with Uber these days. I think people don’t realize how much prices have gone up or that there are a few other options. I’ve used Uber in a number of different countries and it’s so much easier to put the address in when you don’t speak the local language. It’s also great in smaller markets that can’t support a taxi fleet. I agree with others upthread that there’s no wonder people flock to these rideshare services when there’s been so much disinvestment in US public transportation for so long.
posted by Bunglegirl at 8:45 PM on July 10, 2022 [8 favorites]
But, the fiction of drivers being contractors rather than employees is not an innovation that's good.
I agree that allowing drivers to be classified as contractors is bad, but I don't think you can exactly give Uber credit for breaking new ground there.
They just did very blatantly and openly what plenty of companies have been doing for years. There are likely millions of people working in purposely misclassified "contractor" positions, because the IRS hasn't seriously enforced misclassification since 1982* and it's totally rampant.
FedEx, for instance, is no better than Uber. They're just a little bit more coy about it, hiding all the "contractors" behind an intermediate layer of franchisees. Uber just dispensed with the figleaf.
* In 1982, in response to complaints by business that the IRS had been too aggressive about contractor classification enforcement, Congress passed (and later made permanent) Section 530.
posted by Kadin2048 at 9:09 PM on July 10, 2022 [5 favorites]
I agree that allowing drivers to be classified as contractors is bad, but I don't think you can exactly give Uber credit for breaking new ground there.
They just did very blatantly and openly what plenty of companies have been doing for years. There are likely millions of people working in purposely misclassified "contractor" positions, because the IRS hasn't seriously enforced misclassification since 1982* and it's totally rampant.
FedEx, for instance, is no better than Uber. They're just a little bit more coy about it, hiding all the "contractors" behind an intermediate layer of franchisees. Uber just dispensed with the figleaf.
* In 1982, in response to complaints by business that the IRS had been too aggressive about contractor classification enforcement, Congress passed (and later made permanent) Section 530.
posted by Kadin2048 at 9:09 PM on July 10, 2022 [5 favorites]
I can never quite forgive Uber for giving the market incentive for Grab to exist, a regional behemoth that's basically able to outfinance and outlast Uber thanks to Softbank money. So on the one hand, there's literally no Uber in any part of Southeast Asia, but Uber was why MyTeksi, a decent app that received seed grant from the Malaysian Finance Ministry's CRADLE fund, and which was all about connecting decent taxis with consumers, cutting through the various cartels, pivoted into Asian Uber now headquartered in Singapore. I technically can still request for cabs but between supply-side issues and app priority to its own fleet, it's been a death knell to them.
posted by cendawanita at 10:28 PM on July 10, 2022 [4 favorites]
posted by cendawanita at 10:28 PM on July 10, 2022 [4 favorites]
Uber can still go get fucked, not least of the reasons for which is their terrible treatment of drivers, but their core rideshare business has been (modestly) profitable for a few years now, IIRC. Their (financial) problem is that they keep dumping shitloads of money into Eats, e-scooters, and every other shiny thing that pops up on some executive's news feed.
Sure, Uber would like its investors to believe that, but I don't think that's true. They love to do things like offer discounts, but then record those as advertising expenses for accounting purposes that they file in with the general costs of running the company, in order to make the unit economics look better. They spend more than a quarter of their total revenue — billions of dollars per year — on Sales & Marketing. And then they report a positive "adjusted" EBITDA by cramming some bogus one-time stuff into the earnings.
There's no doubt they are losing money faster on Eats than on rides, but I don't think they've really shown that they can actually reliably make any money at all even on rides. Lyft mostly just does rides and they are also losing money even faster than Uber.
posted by ssg at 10:34 PM on July 10, 2022 [3 favorites]
Sure, Uber would like its investors to believe that, but I don't think that's true. They love to do things like offer discounts, but then record those as advertising expenses for accounting purposes that they file in with the general costs of running the company, in order to make the unit economics look better. They spend more than a quarter of their total revenue — billions of dollars per year — on Sales & Marketing. And then they report a positive "adjusted" EBITDA by cramming some bogus one-time stuff into the earnings.
There's no doubt they are losing money faster on Eats than on rides, but I don't think they've really shown that they can actually reliably make any money at all even on rides. Lyft mostly just does rides and they are also losing money even faster than Uber.
posted by ssg at 10:34 PM on July 10, 2022 [3 favorites]
Over here (Poland) a big issue with Uber and Bolt is that usually the person behind the wheel isn't the one who registered in the app. It's run by "stables" that have several cars and user accounts with the requisite licensing, then that user account is getting used around the clock by fresh immigrants without work permits. This has alas resulted in multiple sexual assaults because some predators feel immune, to the point Bolt has introduced a "women for women" option where you're sure your driver's female.
Personally I've started leaning towards FreeNow (former mytaxi), where at least you know the driver has a taxi license and markings on the car, so the city has them on file. Slightly less of a labour abuse machine too.
posted by I claim sanctuary at 12:33 AM on July 11, 2022 [5 favorites]
Personally I've started leaning towards FreeNow (former mytaxi), where at least you know the driver has a taxi license and markings on the car, so the city has them on file. Slightly less of a labour abuse machine too.
posted by I claim sanctuary at 12:33 AM on July 11, 2022 [5 favorites]
liminal_shadows, please check your MeMail.
I was in Gothenburg, Sweden last week and had more luggage than expected so I tried to call a cab. Which is to say, I called an hour in advance and was told that they did not accept pre-bookings. So I called 45 minutes later and was told that they didn’t have any available cars, but I could try in 15 minutes. I don’t know Gothenburg at all, it was my first real visit. The local transit app claimed I was gonna have to walk a kilometer to get to a transit stop that would take me to the central train station. I didn’t much look forward to that but I was not going to call Uber unless I had literally no other choice.
Luckily I found a bus stop I could use much closer than the streetcar stop suggested by the app. I was loaded down with a heavy backpack and carrying a bag in each hand on my way to the train. Skipping Uber was not virtue signaling on my part. I had skin in the game. That was a choice I made before knowing that that fucking Travis thought it would be an awesome strategy to send Uber drivers in France into dangerous situations that might get them killed.
This discussion is fascinating to me. I am willing to believe that sometimes the best or perhaps only way to deal with corrupt organizations is by being corrupt. But that was then. I’m glad there are more choices today for some regions. But I am still going to skip them.
posted by Bella Donna at 1:36 AM on July 11, 2022 [2 favorites]
I was in Gothenburg, Sweden last week and had more luggage than expected so I tried to call a cab. Which is to say, I called an hour in advance and was told that they did not accept pre-bookings. So I called 45 minutes later and was told that they didn’t have any available cars, but I could try in 15 minutes. I don’t know Gothenburg at all, it was my first real visit. The local transit app claimed I was gonna have to walk a kilometer to get to a transit stop that would take me to the central train station. I didn’t much look forward to that but I was not going to call Uber unless I had literally no other choice.
Luckily I found a bus stop I could use much closer than the streetcar stop suggested by the app. I was loaded down with a heavy backpack and carrying a bag in each hand on my way to the train. Skipping Uber was not virtue signaling on my part. I had skin in the game. That was a choice I made before knowing that that fucking Travis thought it would be an awesome strategy to send Uber drivers in France into dangerous situations that might get them killed.
This discussion is fascinating to me. I am willing to believe that sometimes the best or perhaps only way to deal with corrupt organizations is by being corrupt. But that was then. I’m glad there are more choices today for some regions. But I am still going to skip them.
posted by Bella Donna at 1:36 AM on July 11, 2022 [2 favorites]
Oh my God, that makes me sound so snotty. Sorry!
posted by Bella Donna at 1:38 AM on July 11, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by Bella Donna at 1:38 AM on July 11, 2022 [1 favorite]
Isn’t this leak mostly about how Uber has attempted to subvert regulatory process outside of the USA? Posting your American story of taxi woe from before Uber is missing the point - yes, the American labour market is poorly regulated. Other countries were and are not, and Uber lied in order to access those markets.
posted by The River Ivel at 2:32 AM on July 11, 2022 [8 favorites]
posted by The River Ivel at 2:32 AM on July 11, 2022 [8 favorites]
Yes, a Dutch European Commisioner was involved:
Family members of mine recently came to Paris and used Uber all the time they were there. They told us about the generous and kind drivers they had. I am sure that is true and I feel for Uber drivers. But they also have to be kind in the same way that waiters in America have to smile even if they are having a horrible day or you might choose to deprive them of a tip, their major source of income.
I think the lesson to be taken from Uber is: this is how the game is played. If you really want to change shit, playing nice is probably not going to work. "Working within the system" is probably not going to work. If the game is rigged against you---and it almost always is---playing by the rules probably won't get you a win.
Worryingly, I see more and more Americans come to this conclusion. It is a clear sign of societal breakdown.
posted by vacapinta at 3:25 AM on July 11, 2022 [13 favorites]
[Neelie] Kroes contacted politicians including [Prime Minister] Rutte, transport ministers Melanie Schulz and Wilma Mansveld, and Amsterdam mayor Eberhard van der Laan to try to soften the impact of the ban on the Uberpop app. Uberpop was suspended in the Netherlands in November 2015, a year after its launch, after courts ruled it breached Dutch taxi licensing rules. The app allowed private citizens to give lifts for payment, agreed in advance, without having a license. The company settled the case in 2019 for €2.3 million. Uber also came under fire in Amsterdam after its drivers were involved in four fatal accidents in six weeks.So, yes, they were doing everything to get around European Labor regulations. I don't and have never used Uber. In some cases it involved inconvenient and long public transport or taxis but if people won't even make small sacrifices to get a better world then really we are all headed for trouble.
Family members of mine recently came to Paris and used Uber all the time they were there. They told us about the generous and kind drivers they had. I am sure that is true and I feel for Uber drivers. But they also have to be kind in the same way that waiters in America have to smile even if they are having a horrible day or you might choose to deprive them of a tip, their major source of income.
I think the lesson to be taken from Uber is: this is how the game is played. If you really want to change shit, playing nice is probably not going to work. "Working within the system" is probably not going to work. If the game is rigged against you---and it almost always is---playing by the rules probably won't get you a win.
Worryingly, I see more and more Americans come to this conclusion. It is a clear sign of societal breakdown.
posted by vacapinta at 3:25 AM on July 11, 2022 [13 favorites]
Instead we got this greedy fucking ancap hellscape mess of a fucking system and this clusterfuck of stupid that we're now seeing in depth.
More and more, my idiot brain insists on interpreting present circumstances in the form of JK Rowling titles.
Harry Potter and the Ancap Hellscape
Harry Potter and the Clusterfuck of Stupid
posted by flabdablet at 4:21 AM on July 11, 2022 [4 favorites]
More and more, my idiot brain insists on interpreting present circumstances in the form of JK Rowling titles.
Harry Potter and the Ancap Hellscape
Harry Potter and the Clusterfuck of Stupid
posted by flabdablet at 4:21 AM on July 11, 2022 [4 favorites]
The ancaps are the Randroid psychopaths who come up with these schemes. Those caught in them are incaps.
posted by acb at 5:00 AM on July 11, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by acb at 5:00 AM on July 11, 2022 [2 favorites]
Rather than wagging our collective fingers at them (which they won't notice or care about), I think it'd be more productive for people with ideas and ambition to learn from what they've done. Too many people with good ideas, especially social progressives, hamstring themselves with a misplaced belief in the sanctity of rule-following, and end up achieving little---exactly as intended by those who make the rules.
Yes. Imagine how many innovative business ideas never saw the light of day because we have rules that employees must be paid.
In order for your argument to work, you'll need to define which rules merely exist to stifle innovation and which rules are there because we as a society decided we really want to have them to protect us against abusive practices.
posted by RonButNotStupid at 5:11 AM on July 11, 2022 [19 favorites]
Yes. Imagine how many innovative business ideas never saw the light of day because we have rules that employees must be paid.
In order for your argument to work, you'll need to define which rules merely exist to stifle innovation and which rules are there because we as a society decided we really want to have them to protect us against abusive practices.
posted by RonButNotStupid at 5:11 AM on July 11, 2022 [19 favorites]
My city in Canada (little shy of a quarter-million population) lost its last taxi company this spring — not due to Uber and its ilk, they said, but skyrocketing insurance rates and a shortage of drivers* — and transit is what one might term “dismal.” I am disabled and do not drive. I am constitutionally disinclined to use Uber or Lyft (or Airb’n’b or anything else along those lines).
Result: well, occasionally walking 25,000 steps a day is probably good for my waistline.
Maybe fifteen years ago I was living in Ottawa during a transit strike. There were at the time five or six big taxi companies there. The tragedy of commons variant that struck the taxi business then was that anyone who really needed a taxi called all five or six companies, and got into whichever cab appeared first. Rarely if ever, it seemed, did the passengers call the other companies back to cancel the fare.
It was sort of a perfect storm of awfulness: drivers who might have made six or eight fares before during rush hour were now getting more like two; dispatchers were being pressured to get the numbers back up, so they would send the drivers all over the city on dead fares (i.e. no one there to pick up); and those of us who needed to get to the airport got to watch literally dozens of empty taxis speed past while our flight’s departure time crept closer and closer.
*Wait, is this “No one wants to work?” I love this one!
posted by ricochet biscuit at 5:20 AM on July 11, 2022 [5 favorites]
Result: well, occasionally walking 25,000 steps a day is probably good for my waistline.
Maybe fifteen years ago I was living in Ottawa during a transit strike. There were at the time five or six big taxi companies there. The tragedy of commons variant that struck the taxi business then was that anyone who really needed a taxi called all five or six companies, and got into whichever cab appeared first. Rarely if ever, it seemed, did the passengers call the other companies back to cancel the fare.
It was sort of a perfect storm of awfulness: drivers who might have made six or eight fares before during rush hour were now getting more like two; dispatchers were being pressured to get the numbers back up, so they would send the drivers all over the city on dead fares (i.e. no one there to pick up); and those of us who needed to get to the airport got to watch literally dozens of empty taxis speed past while our flight’s departure time crept closer and closer.
*Wait, is this “No one wants to work?” I love this one!
posted by ricochet biscuit at 5:20 AM on July 11, 2022 [5 favorites]
Uber started off as a way to summon a limo or "black car". There have always been professional car services, but for reasons of tradition they didn't really compete in the taxi space because booking one required contacting them ahead of time to arrange a reservation. Uber was innovative in that they provided a single front end to all of these preexisting independent car services to make summoning one as easy as summoning a taxi.
We wag our fingers at Uber not because they disrupted a market, but because they completely fucked over a market. First the independent car services by opening their platform up to anyone driving a car, and then their drivers by continuing the fiction that everyone they contract rides with is an independent car service. At every step of the way, they've externalized liability, car availability, maintenance, insurance, and pretty much everything else you would expect a business to provide. All they've built is an app and a brand, and they've used those along with a dumptruck of VC money to completely destroy a market so that they can rebuild it on their own favorable terms from labor laws to livery regulations.
posted by RonButNotStupid at 5:42 AM on July 11, 2022 [11 favorites]
We wag our fingers at Uber not because they disrupted a market, but because they completely fucked over a market. First the independent car services by opening their platform up to anyone driving a car, and then their drivers by continuing the fiction that everyone they contract rides with is an independent car service. At every step of the way, they've externalized liability, car availability, maintenance, insurance, and pretty much everything else you would expect a business to provide. All they've built is an app and a brand, and they've used those along with a dumptruck of VC money to completely destroy a market so that they can rebuild it on their own favorable terms from labor laws to livery regulations.
posted by RonButNotStupid at 5:42 AM on July 11, 2022 [11 favorites]
Imagine if they sent out an driver on an hourly paycheck in a 15 seater hybrid shuttle bus and put them basically on Uber Pool to work like a constant, dynamically routed bus route.
Bridj tried this and failed miserably. Dynamic bus routes may sound great, but they're actually a terrible idea. Buses provide economy of scale by running along fixed routes on schedules people can rely on. Otherwise you're just half-assedly trying to solve a constantly changing traveling salesman problem.
posted by RonButNotStupid at 6:05 AM on July 11, 2022 [11 favorites]
Bridj tried this and failed miserably. Dynamic bus routes may sound great, but they're actually a terrible idea. Buses provide economy of scale by running along fixed routes on schedules people can rely on. Otherwise you're just half-assedly trying to solve a constantly changing traveling salesman problem.
posted by RonButNotStupid at 6:05 AM on July 11, 2022 [11 favorites]
So, the first thing to note when talking about taxis in the US is that it is a transit mode predominantly used by the poor, the urban poor in particular. This has been researched - approximately 55% of livery rides were by people earning less than $40k, with another 35% coming from people making over $100k. Which means that the middle class make up 10% of livery use in the US. Which given our car-centric culture actually makes sense - one of the core markers of the American middle class is access to a personal automobile. And given that the wealthy have access to their own livery, taxis in specific are a mode of transit aimed at the lower classes, allowing them to eschew car ownership in conjunction with public transit.
Given this, it should be no surprise that operating a taxi service was a high capital, low profit business. With the consumer base being low income, revenue has a low ceiling, which in turn results in the industry we saw - small firms which needed to control costs, hence the reliance on hardy used vehicles with known stable parts supplies, the most famous being the Crown Victoria Interceptor, with supplies easily available from municipal surplus sales. The focus here is on meeting local and state regulations for operation, with comfort falling behind thanks to the simple reality that their consumer base was to some degree captive. Furthermore, chasing after the middle class, outside of a few cites where it was viable like NYC, was a sucker's game. The middle class had access to private transportation, and outside of edge cases where livery made sense like travel transportation, they would default to other, cheaper modes of transit or their own vehicles.
Which gets to the big point - how do you get a notoriously price-sensitive segment to pay for services they traditionally don't use? You have to lower the price. And that was the core way online livery gained a foothold - set prices that the target audience would find acceptable. Of course, we all know now that to hit those price points, the companies used a mixture of subsidation along with externalization of service costs on the drivers.
posted by NoxAeternum at 6:05 AM on July 11, 2022 [12 favorites]
Given this, it should be no surprise that operating a taxi service was a high capital, low profit business. With the consumer base being low income, revenue has a low ceiling, which in turn results in the industry we saw - small firms which needed to control costs, hence the reliance on hardy used vehicles with known stable parts supplies, the most famous being the Crown Victoria Interceptor, with supplies easily available from municipal surplus sales. The focus here is on meeting local and state regulations for operation, with comfort falling behind thanks to the simple reality that their consumer base was to some degree captive. Furthermore, chasing after the middle class, outside of a few cites where it was viable like NYC, was a sucker's game. The middle class had access to private transportation, and outside of edge cases where livery made sense like travel transportation, they would default to other, cheaper modes of transit or their own vehicles.
Which gets to the big point - how do you get a notoriously price-sensitive segment to pay for services they traditionally don't use? You have to lower the price. And that was the core way online livery gained a foothold - set prices that the target audience would find acceptable. Of course, we all know now that to hit those price points, the companies used a mixture of subsidation along with externalization of service costs on the drivers.
posted by NoxAeternum at 6:05 AM on July 11, 2022 [12 favorites]
Specifically re: employee classification - Fair Work Australia investigated Uber for sham contracting and after two years concluded Uber drivers were indeed independent contractors.
"For such a relationship to exist, the courts have determined that there must be, at a minimum, an obligation for an employee to perform work when it is demanded by the employer… Uber Australia does not require drivers to perform work at particular times and this was a key factor in our assessment that the commercial arrangement between the company and the drivers does not amount to an employment relationship."
In their explanatory notes:
Items in favor of the relationship being an Independent Contractor
- Uber does not control the driver.
The driver can work or not work through Uber.
Decide when, if, where and for how long they work.
The work is not ongoing
- Uber and/or the driver can terminate the agreement at any time.
There is strict offer and acceptance of contract
- Uber makes offers of jobs to drivers who can accept or reject jobs.
There is no restraint of trade/employment on the driver
- Drivers can do any other work they wish.
Drivers are not ‘part and parcel’ of Uber
- Drivers cannot make themselves out to be part of Uber’s business.
Drivers supply their own equipment.
Items in favor of the relationship being Employer - Employee
- Drivers unable to set their own rates
- Uber does control driver behavior to a degree (termination of drivers for low ratings)
posted by xdvesper at 6:12 AM on July 11, 2022 [4 favorites]
"For such a relationship to exist, the courts have determined that there must be, at a minimum, an obligation for an employee to perform work when it is demanded by the employer… Uber Australia does not require drivers to perform work at particular times and this was a key factor in our assessment that the commercial arrangement between the company and the drivers does not amount to an employment relationship."
In their explanatory notes:
Items in favor of the relationship being an Independent Contractor
- Uber does not control the driver.
The driver can work or not work through Uber.
Decide when, if, where and for how long they work.
The work is not ongoing
- Uber and/or the driver can terminate the agreement at any time.
There is strict offer and acceptance of contract
- Uber makes offers of jobs to drivers who can accept or reject jobs.
There is no restraint of trade/employment on the driver
- Drivers can do any other work they wish.
Drivers are not ‘part and parcel’ of Uber
- Drivers cannot make themselves out to be part of Uber’s business.
Drivers supply their own equipment.
Items in favor of the relationship being Employer - Employee
- Drivers unable to set their own rates
- Uber does control driver behavior to a degree (termination of drivers for low ratings)
posted by xdvesper at 6:12 AM on July 11, 2022 [4 favorites]
I think the lesson to be taken from Uber is: this is how the game is played. If you really want to change shit, playing nice is probably not going to work. "Working within the system" is probably not going to work. If the game is rigged against you---and it almost always is---playing by the rules probably won't get you a win.
Worryingly, I see more and more Americans come to this conclusion. It is a clear sign of societal breakdown.
When the people at the top don't care about the rules except when they can use them to screw the rest of us over, the rest of us need to recognize that and start screaming about it as fast as possible. Working within the system has always been a losing game at some level for marginalized people because the system is set up for the privileged few to retain and enhance their own control - and now the privileged few aren't just white cis straight abled men, but white cis straight abled men with truly incomprehensible amounts of money who have a burning need for ever larger amounts of cash, no empathy, and the belief that they can personally buy their way out of climate change.
posted by bile and syntax at 8:01 AM on July 11, 2022 [4 favorites]
Worryingly, I see more and more Americans come to this conclusion. It is a clear sign of societal breakdown.
When the people at the top don't care about the rules except when they can use them to screw the rest of us over, the rest of us need to recognize that and start screaming about it as fast as possible. Working within the system has always been a losing game at some level for marginalized people because the system is set up for the privileged few to retain and enhance their own control - and now the privileged few aren't just white cis straight abled men, but white cis straight abled men with truly incomprehensible amounts of money who have a burning need for ever larger amounts of cash, no empathy, and the belief that they can personally buy their way out of climate change.
posted by bile and syntax at 8:01 AM on July 11, 2022 [4 favorites]
Too many people with good ideas, especially social progressives, hamstring themselves with a misplaced belief in the sanctity of rule-following, and end up achieving little---exactly as intended by those who make the rules.
This is the same as the pernicious "It's easier to ask for forgiveness than for permission" attitude that gave us mass surveillance and genocide. Pass.
posted by Lyme Drop at 8:10 AM on July 11, 2022 [4 favorites]
This is the same as the pernicious "It's easier to ask for forgiveness than for permission" attitude that gave us mass surveillance and genocide. Pass.
posted by Lyme Drop at 8:10 AM on July 11, 2022 [4 favorites]
further from the Guardian (something of a meta overview on how a story this big gets broken down, pieced together, delivered):
How global media covered the Uber law-breaking revelations
More than 180 journalists at 40 media outlets including the Guardian, Le Monde, the Washington Post and the BBC have collaborated on a series of investigative reports about how Uber’s ruthless tactics helped it to gain a foothold in crucial cities around the world.
UK, USA, France, Canada, Spain, Germany, India, Italy, Belgium, Hungary, Colombia, Estonia
posted by philip-random at 9:13 AM on July 11, 2022 [1 favorite]
How global media covered the Uber law-breaking revelations
More than 180 journalists at 40 media outlets including the Guardian, Le Monde, the Washington Post and the BBC have collaborated on a series of investigative reports about how Uber’s ruthless tactics helped it to gain a foothold in crucial cities around the world.
UK, USA, France, Canada, Spain, Germany, India, Italy, Belgium, Hungary, Colombia, Estonia
posted by philip-random at 9:13 AM on July 11, 2022 [1 favorite]
The Uber whistleblower: I’m exposing a system that sold people a lie. Mark MacGann, former Head of Public Policy, Europe, Middle East & Africa at Uber, explains why he gave all the documents to reporters.
“I am partly responsible,” he said. “I was the one talking to governments, I was the one pushing this with the media, I was the one telling people that they should change the rules because drivers were going to benefit and people were going to get so much economic opportunity.posted by Nelson at 9:39 AM on July 11, 2022 [6 favorites]
“When that turned out not to be the case – we had actually sold people a lie – how can you have a clear conscience if you don’t stand up and own your contribution to how people are being treated today?”
I think the lesson to be taken from Uber is: this is how the game is played. If you really want to change shit, playing nice is probably not going to work. "Working within the system" is probably not going to work. If the game is rigged against you---and it almost always is---playing by the rules probably won't get you a win.
Well, first is the fact they saw it as a game. And that means it's something they can walk away from relatively scot-free. Not everyone has that luxury. I think plenty of people already know that the rules are broken, but they continue to follow them not because they're dumb-dumbs that believe in them, but because they know chances are they're going to be the ones made an example of and singled out for punishment. Sometimes following the rules is the only bargaining chip you have.
posted by FJT at 12:35 PM on July 11, 2022 [2 favorites]
Well, first is the fact they saw it as a game. And that means it's something they can walk away from relatively scot-free. Not everyone has that luxury. I think plenty of people already know that the rules are broken, but they continue to follow them not because they're dumb-dumbs that believe in them, but because they know chances are they're going to be the ones made an example of and singled out for punishment. Sometimes following the rules is the only bargaining chip you have.
posted by FJT at 12:35 PM on July 11, 2022 [2 favorites]
I don't really know why anyone is shocked about this. It's pretty much the start-up story for any company that's tried to move into a heavily regulated sector, with the primary difference being Uber has successfully broken various monopolies and crooked, abusive systems where most have failed (perhaps they just weren't evil enough). The fact that they've replaced them with (arguably) equally crooked and abusive systems is also no cause for surprise.
The taxi industry really has no right to complain about the way they've been treated though. Rampant abuse of contract drivers and of passengers, corrupt and anti-competitive licensing practices, appalling levels of service were the norm in the industry long before Uber came along.
how can you have a clear conscience if you don’t stand up and own your contribution to how people are being treated today?
I didn't quite catch which charity the millions he earned telling lies have been donated to. You don't get to clear your conscience by eventually telling the truth, especially when you know you can profit from blowing the lid (expecting a book release any moment).
posted by dg at 5:23 PM on July 11, 2022 [1 favorite]
The taxi industry really has no right to complain about the way they've been treated though. Rampant abuse of contract drivers and of passengers, corrupt and anti-competitive licensing practices, appalling levels of service were the norm in the industry long before Uber came along.
how can you have a clear conscience if you don’t stand up and own your contribution to how people are being treated today?
I didn't quite catch which charity the millions he earned telling lies have been donated to. You don't get to clear your conscience by eventually telling the truth, especially when you know you can profit from blowing the lid (expecting a book release any moment).
posted by dg at 5:23 PM on July 11, 2022 [1 favorite]
t's pretty much the start-up story for any company that's tried to move into a heavily regulated sector
It absolutely is not, I say as someone who's worked in a heavily regulated sector (pharma) including many years at a startup for the last 3 decades.
I also live in Silicon Valley, so I know plenty of people in other industries in start ups. Amazingly enough, most try to play by the rules in heavily regulated industries. Out of necessity more than virtue, generally speaking. But this sort of approach is by no means normal.
with the primary difference being Uber has successfully broken various monopolies and crooked, abusive systems where most have failed (perhaps they just weren't evil enough)
Well, another difference is that Uber's entire business model was ignoring regulations. Start ups that are trying to produce a product that has value under the existing legal regime focus on the product itself, and not evading regulation.
posted by mark k at 8:27 PM on July 11, 2022 [6 favorites]
It absolutely is not, I say as someone who's worked in a heavily regulated sector (pharma) including many years at a startup for the last 3 decades.
I also live in Silicon Valley, so I know plenty of people in other industries in start ups. Amazingly enough, most try to play by the rules in heavily regulated industries. Out of necessity more than virtue, generally speaking. But this sort of approach is by no means normal.
with the primary difference being Uber has successfully broken various monopolies and crooked, abusive systems where most have failed (perhaps they just weren't evil enough)
Well, another difference is that Uber's entire business model was ignoring regulations. Start ups that are trying to produce a product that has value under the existing legal regime focus on the product itself, and not evading regulation.
posted by mark k at 8:27 PM on July 11, 2022 [6 favorites]
Checking back in again from Southeast Asia, Uber having to eject itself from here might also probably be due to the fact that perhaps because of various other reasons (local monopolies; stronger populism that's fostered by authoritarianish democracies; money) the countries here introduced respective e-hailing (what we call rideshares) laws that put apps like these on the backfoot with regards to insurance, liability and also normative employee obligations. (Grab Malaysia FAQ as example; despite the clickbait title, an assessment of the various country regs). Of course none of the players wanted it but... It can't be that Southeast Asians are more impervious to political lobbying than Europeans. It's just other elite considerations were at play and perhaps what happened here is that the Asians didn't find Uber folks to be of the "same kind". Still, that's at least some benefit for us. In addition, for my country anyway we've had a long running public agency investment group whose funds are serviced by private sector contributions (it's basically pensions for private employees. Like a 401k? But govt-backed and we don't make any investing decisions on the whole), and in recent years as a way to adapt to the gig economy, people are now encouraged to pay contributions even if they're not technically a full-time staff of anyone (basically they've expanded the eligibility and awareness of something contract workers would've availed themselves to).
Honestly, the region only dodged a bullet because Uber underestimated the region. Slight comfort in that i don't know how to generalize our experience into lessons for elsewhere.
posted by cendawanita at 9:14 PM on July 11, 2022 [2 favorites]
Honestly, the region only dodged a bullet because Uber underestimated the region. Slight comfort in that i don't know how to generalize our experience into lessons for elsewhere.
posted by cendawanita at 9:14 PM on July 11, 2022 [2 favorites]
So. In my country we've gone from 1970s situation where new taxi drivers would have to apply at the district court for a license and my grandad (president of the city taxi co-op) would go down and argue why no new license should be issued, to almost complete deregulation of the taxi business. The current setting is that now drivers must have a "P" class license which includes a basic background check and display an official photo id on the dash. So taxis were operating in a near free market. This caused problems of its own as taxi drivers would illegally refuse short rides, firms wouldn't do dispatching properly, firms cost-cutting wouldn't vet their drivers properly, blah blah.
Uber has already been made to confirm in ensuring that drivers have a P class license as a basic requirement. And right now, there is a court case under way to decide whether drivers are employees or contractors. The judge has reserved her decision. New Zealand judges, whatever their problems, aren't known to be generally on the take, and historically they have made some rules about the nature of being a contractor that don't augur well for Uber. There's no incumbent business class to protect here, but the contractor implications go far beyond Uber so it's going to be danged interesting when the judge rules (in about three months).
posted by i_am_joe's_spleen at 1:53 AM on July 12, 2022 [2 favorites]
Uber has already been made to confirm in ensuring that drivers have a P class license as a basic requirement. And right now, there is a court case under way to decide whether drivers are employees or contractors. The judge has reserved her decision. New Zealand judges, whatever their problems, aren't known to be generally on the take, and historically they have made some rules about the nature of being a contractor that don't augur well for Uber. There's no incumbent business class to protect here, but the contractor implications go far beyond Uber so it's going to be danged interesting when the judge rules (in about three months).
posted by i_am_joe's_spleen at 1:53 AM on July 12, 2022 [2 favorites]
Uber takes a page from the Federalist Society playbook, and paid academics to write papers to support their positions.
posted by NoxAeternum at 1:04 PM on July 12, 2022
posted by NoxAeternum at 1:04 PM on July 12, 2022
DoorDash & The Myth of Profitable Food Delivery
SLYT from Modern MBA. Video is mostly about DoorDash, but the same economics apply to other food delivery companies like UberEats.
posted by FJT at 2:57 PM on July 14, 2022
SLYT from Modern MBA. Video is mostly about DoorDash, but the same economics apply to other food delivery companies like UberEats.
posted by FJT at 2:57 PM on July 14, 2022
Uber takes a page from the Federalist Society playbook, and paid academics to write papers to support their positions.
I'm not sure why, but I follow a decent number of social scientists on twitter.
I've seen a lot of wry amusement about various aspects of this whole debacle, but one thing that struck me is the observation about how--independent of the direct payments--all these companies (Uber, Facebook, Twitter, etc.) have these massive datasets which are private property but which are just massively valuable to any academic doing that kind of work.
It's like, it'd be easy for them to turn down the $100,000 payment for a favorable paper. But many sins become easy to rationalize when you start to imagine the stuff you could publish with access to millions of car rides (or tweets or whatever.)
posted by mark k at 5:34 PM on July 14, 2022 [1 favorite]
I'm not sure why, but I follow a decent number of social scientists on twitter.
I've seen a lot of wry amusement about various aspects of this whole debacle, but one thing that struck me is the observation about how--independent of the direct payments--all these companies (Uber, Facebook, Twitter, etc.) have these massive datasets which are private property but which are just massively valuable to any academic doing that kind of work.
It's like, it'd be easy for them to turn down the $100,000 payment for a favorable paper. But many sins become easy to rationalize when you start to imagine the stuff you could publish with access to millions of car rides (or tweets or whatever.)
posted by mark k at 5:34 PM on July 14, 2022 [1 favorite]
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