Hearings on 1/6 Capitol Attack—The Second Month
July 12, 2022 8:52 AM Subscribe
The Select Committee to Investigate the January 6th Attack on the United States Capitol resumes its hearings today at 1:00 pm ET. There is another hearing scheduled for prime time on Thursday.
The previous thread on these hearings is now closed, but all the introductory links there remain relevant.
The biggest news heading into this session is that former White House Counsel, Pat Cipollone, spent eight hours giving a video taped deposition to the committee this past Friday.
The previous thread on these hearings is now closed, but all the introductory links there remain relevant.
The biggest news heading into this session is that former White House Counsel, Pat Cipollone, spent eight hours giving a video taped deposition to the committee this past Friday.
Thank you to MonkeyToes, who made the original post, for encouraging me to make this, my first ever MeFi post.
(I don't seem to have broken anything in the links. Only one obvious typo. Passable, I suppose.)
posted by bcd at 8:55 AM on July 12, 2022 [82 favorites]
(I don't seem to have broken anything in the links. Only one obvious typo. Passable, I suppose.)
posted by bcd at 8:55 AM on July 12, 2022 [82 favorites]
Thank you for posting this. The time switch caught everyone by surprise yesterday.
posted by TWinbrook8 at 8:59 AM on July 12, 2022 [3 favorites]
posted by TWinbrook8 at 8:59 AM on July 12, 2022 [3 favorites]
a few days ago, a friend referred to all of this as their favourite feelgood TV since The West Wing.
posted by philip-random at 9:04 AM on July 12, 2022 [21 favorites]
posted by philip-random at 9:04 AM on July 12, 2022 [21 favorites]
I actually heard this morning that the Thursday hearing this week has been either cancelled or postponed. What's up with that?
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 9:19 AM on July 12, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 9:19 AM on July 12, 2022 [2 favorites]
Current start time is supposed to be 12:30 ET, that's as far as I see on "postponed" right now on YouTube?
posted by jenfullmoon at 9:21 AM on July 12, 2022
posted by jenfullmoon at 9:21 AM on July 12, 2022
Committee members Jamie Raskin (D-MD) and Stephanie Murphy (D-FL) talked to NBC and CNN. Quotes from each:
Raskin: "Cipollone has corroborated almost everything that we’ve learned from the prior hearings."posted by box at 9:22 AM on July 12, 2022 [4 favorites]
Murphy: "He made very clear that he took the side of many of the folks that you’ve already seen come before the committee, and was asserting that there wasn’t enough evidence to prove that the election was not free and fair."
Is there a reliably updated iCal link (or Google calendar) that has these hearings? I follow political news pretty closely but they always seem to catch me by surprise.
posted by Rhaomi at 9:24 AM on July 12, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by Rhaomi at 9:24 AM on July 12, 2022 [1 favorite]
I'm not aware of an iCal link, but they do seem very good about updating the official Twitter account.
posted by bcd at 9:26 AM on July 12, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by bcd at 9:26 AM on July 12, 2022 [1 favorite]
Surely this. Right? No? (Sigh)
posted by DirtyOldTown at 9:38 AM on July 12, 2022 [5 favorites]
posted by DirtyOldTown at 9:38 AM on July 12, 2022 [5 favorites]
Surely this. Right? No? (Sigh)
I think, actually, surely this. Charges and prosecutions--including of Trump himself--must follow this, because if not, then there is no forward as a free, democratic nation. That's how outstanding the work of this committee has been, in telling the story of what happened, either we (collectively) formally respond to it, or we fully, openly admit that none of our rules or processes actually matter and it's all Calvinball for the powerful. I don't think that's a false dilemma, I think the stakes are in fact that high.
posted by LooseFilter at 9:50 AM on July 12, 2022 [109 favorites]
I think, actually, surely this. Charges and prosecutions--including of Trump himself--must follow this, because if not, then there is no forward as a free, democratic nation. That's how outstanding the work of this committee has been, in telling the story of what happened, either we (collectively) formally respond to it, or we fully, openly admit that none of our rules or processes actually matter and it's all Calvinball for the powerful. I don't think that's a false dilemma, I think the stakes are in fact that high.
posted by LooseFilter at 9:50 AM on July 12, 2022 [109 favorites]
And my bet here is that we'll have the worst of both worlds - a completely documented, widely understood attempt to overthrow the election plus absolutely no consequences, so that trying to overturn an election by violence becomes just one of those things that we do here in the United States, like killing unarmed Black people and shooting up schools. It would have been better for the Democrats to do nothing at all than to make a big song and dance about wrongdoing with no will or power to do anything about it.
posted by Frowner at 10:02 AM on July 12, 2022 [30 favorites]
posted by Frowner at 10:02 AM on July 12, 2022 [30 favorites]
Reps Stephanie Murphy (D-FL) & Jamie Raskin (D-MD) will be the primary interviewers today.
Trump's behavior during the insurrection will be next session. Today, will be about how he summoned and directed the mob.
posted by bcd at 10:07 AM on July 12, 2022 [2 favorites]
Trump's behavior during the insurrection will be next session. Today, will be about how he summoned and directed the mob.
posted by bcd at 10:07 AM on July 12, 2022 [2 favorites]
How is Trump being mislead by others and unable to tell right from wrong a defense of his actions on January 6? It's one of the main reasons he was unqualified to be president in the first place.
posted by ActingTheGoat at 10:11 AM on July 12, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by ActingTheGoat at 10:11 AM on July 12, 2022 [2 favorites]
I actually heard this morning that the Thursday hearing this week has been either cancelled or postponed. What's up with that?
House January 6 committee will not hold hearing on Thursday
House January 6 committee will not hold hearing on Thursday
The House committee investigating the January 6, 2021, Capitol Hill insurrection will not hold a hearing this Thursday, as had previously been under consideration, a source familiar with the committee's plans told CNN.posted by kirkaracha at 10:11 AM on July 12, 2022 [5 favorites]
A committee aide told CNN later Monday that "we expect that we will hold a hearing next week."
The reason for delaying the hearing, the aide said, was to give members and investigators time to process the "new and important information" it has received "on a daily basis."
...
The decision to move the hearing back could be connected to the committee's recent deposition of former White House Counsel Pat Cipollone, who met with investigators last Friday for more than seven hours.
Cheney: "President Trump is a 76 year old man. He is not an impressionable child."
Paraphrase: Trump had more information about the election than anyone else in the world. No sane or rational person could look at the information he had and reach the opposite conclusion.
Two points: Trump's legal team, led by Giuliani, knew they didn't have evidence the election was stolen. Millions of Americans were convinced to believe what Trump's closest advisors did not, because Trump deceived them.
posted by box at 10:11 AM on July 12, 2022 [35 favorites]
Paraphrase: Trump had more information about the election than anyone else in the world. No sane or rational person could look at the information he had and reach the opposite conclusion.
Two points: Trump's legal team, led by Giuliani, knew they didn't have evidence the election was stolen. Millions of Americans were convinced to believe what Trump's closest advisors did not, because Trump deceived them.
posted by box at 10:11 AM on July 12, 2022 [35 favorites]
And my bet here is that we'll have the worst of both worlds - a completely documented, widely understood attempt to overthrow the election plus absolutely no consequences
This implies that not having the documentation is somehow better. It would not be. If there are no consequences, which seems entirely possible, that will be really bad. But ignorance of the details (we already knew the broad gist) does not improve the situation.
posted by feckless at 10:12 AM on July 12, 2022 [21 favorites]
This implies that not having the documentation is somehow better. It would not be. If there are no consequences, which seems entirely possible, that will be really bad. But ignorance of the details (we already knew the broad gist) does not improve the situation.
posted by feckless at 10:12 AM on July 12, 2022 [21 favorites]
How is Trump being mislead by others and unable to tell right from wrong a defense of his actions on January 6? It's one of the main reasons he was unqualified to be president in the first place.
One of the key things they have been driving home is that he was not mislead. He knew the truth and lied knowingly.
posted by bcd at 10:12 AM on July 12, 2022 [12 favorites]
One of the key things they have been driving home is that he was not mislead. He knew the truth and lied knowingly.
posted by bcd at 10:12 AM on July 12, 2022 [12 favorites]
Raskin correctly and bluntly refers to "Proud Boys, Oath Keepers and other racist and white nationalist groups".
posted by bcd at 10:18 AM on July 12, 2022 [19 favorites]
posted by bcd at 10:18 AM on July 12, 2022 [19 favorites]
Mod note: One comment deleted. Please refer to the Content Policy: "Violence: It can be okay to talk in strongly critical terms about people's words but don't cross the line into any threats of violence or wishing violence on other people."
posted by loup (staff) at 10:25 AM on July 12, 2022 [23 favorites]
posted by loup (staff) at 10:25 AM on July 12, 2022 [23 favorites]
Murphy says there will be some clips from Cipollone's testimony today, but many more in their next hearing. This seems to confirm the suspicion that Thursday's hearing has been pushed back because of information from that deposition.
posted by bcd at 10:25 AM on July 12, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by bcd at 10:25 AM on July 12, 2022 [2 favorites]
hahahahahahahhahahaha. Oh, are you serious?
Can we please at least be civil with each other?
posted by OnTheLastCastle at 10:25 AM on July 12, 2022 [35 favorites]
Can we please at least be civil with each other?
posted by OnTheLastCastle at 10:25 AM on July 12, 2022 [35 favorites]
There is no fucking way anything comes of this. You can literally attack the capital during the execution of the most fundamental process of our republic, and no one will do anything but hold hearings about it.
You know the final outcome of the hearings, right?
After we're done having the hearings, the committee will compile everything they've found into a report and turn it over to the DOJ and to Congress, complete with recommendations about what the DOJ should do in terms of bringing charges. Here's all the evidence, here, even.
...They've been announcing that more witnesses come forward the longer the hearings go on, and more witnesses means more evidence that gets turned over to the DOJ.
If you still think that "Nothing will come of this" you've bought the same lie that Trump's selling.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 10:35 AM on July 12, 2022 [22 favorites]
You know the final outcome of the hearings, right?
After we're done having the hearings, the committee will compile everything they've found into a report and turn it over to the DOJ and to Congress, complete with recommendations about what the DOJ should do in terms of bringing charges. Here's all the evidence, here, even.
...They've been announcing that more witnesses come forward the longer the hearings go on, and more witnesses means more evidence that gets turned over to the DOJ.
If you still think that "Nothing will come of this" you've bought the same lie that Trump's selling.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 10:35 AM on July 12, 2022 [22 favorites]
hahahahahahahhahahaha. Oh, are you serious?
Yes, I'm serious. Your extremely uncivil tone has already been addressed, but I'll also address reading comprehension: you ignore the "or" part of my either/or statement.
Please read more carefully and try hard to refrain from mocking other commenters, no matter how strong your urge to dump your frustrations on the rest of us may be.
posted by LooseFilter at 10:36 AM on July 12, 2022 [40 favorites]
Yes, I'm serious. Your extremely uncivil tone has already been addressed, but I'll also address reading comprehension: you ignore the "or" part of my either/or statement.
Please read more carefully and try hard to refrain from mocking other commenters, no matter how strong your urge to dump your frustrations on the rest of us may be.
posted by LooseFilter at 10:36 AM on July 12, 2022 [40 favorites]
Barr testifies that Trump tried to get the DOJ to seize voting machines.
Powell & Flynn, among others, proposed an executive order for the military to seize the machines and appoint Powell as Special Counsel to investigate and charge people with electron fraud crimes.
Cipollone confirms he was aware of all this and pushed back against it.
posted by bcd at 10:38 AM on July 12, 2022 [1 favorite]
Powell & Flynn, among others, proposed an executive order for the military to seize the machines and appoint Powell as Special Counsel to investigate and charge people with electron fraud crimes.
Cipollone confirms he was aware of all this and pushed back against it.
posted by bcd at 10:38 AM on July 12, 2022 [1 favorite]
The problem is that someone has to be willing to bring charges, right?
I'll believe it when I see it.
posted by jenfullmoon at 10:39 AM on July 12, 2022 [8 favorites]
I'll believe it when I see it.
posted by jenfullmoon at 10:39 AM on July 12, 2022 [8 favorites]
I'll believe it when I see it.
Me too. I just also think think that this time, if not, no more USA.
posted by LooseFilter at 10:41 AM on July 12, 2022 [8 favorites]
Me too. I just also think think that this time, if not, no more USA.
posted by LooseFilter at 10:41 AM on July 12, 2022 [8 favorites]
The fact that this is happening now via committee rather than on January 7th, 2021 via Secret Service forcibly putting people in cuffs means they've already done it wrong, IMO.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 10:41 AM on July 12, 2022 [33 favorites]
posted by DirtyOldTown at 10:41 AM on July 12, 2022 [33 favorites]
Yawn. I am buying the nothing will come of this. It is frustrating, but that is my take on what will happen. What exactly will the DOJ charge Trump with? Carjacking?
Trump is a bad man. A very bad man. Even most republicans will agree with that. Is that still in dispute? The problem with the hearings is that their bipartisan credibility is nil and they are preaching to the choir.
Either charge him with something or move on to the issues facing the American people for the mid-terms. Even CNN said that the hearings will not affect the midterms one bit. How about working to pass a federal law legalizing a birthing person's right to choose? That will motivate the midterm voters. How about working to reduce inflation? The dems spend too much time working on theories. The repubs spend their time working on practical solutions to their insane theories. The repubs are developing a back bench of candidates that will motivate the base such as DeSantis. The dems have...Kamala? They are pushing Biden out. Even the NYT is getting into it. The dems need to focus on finding candidates for 2024 instead of trying to stop one republican candidate, Trump, from running again. Trump is not even the repubs most liked candidate. The dems are better off letting Trump, Cruz and DeSantis and whomever fight it out rather than eliminate the biggest irritant.
Rather than work to maintain control of both houses of congress, they are working to prevent Trump from...from what? Stopping Trump from running again through the hearings is a longshot and probably counter to the dems interest. Trying to convince the Proud Boys that they should become Antifa?
Maybe the hearings help the national democratic party's fund raising?
The Committee should declare victory and move on.
(They should also know that if they lose the House in the 2022 election, they will be facing hearings of their own. There is plenty of ammunition to go after Joe Biden and his family graft ways.
posted by JohnnyGunn at 10:42 AM on July 12, 2022 [5 favorites]
Trump is a bad man. A very bad man. Even most republicans will agree with that. Is that still in dispute? The problem with the hearings is that their bipartisan credibility is nil and they are preaching to the choir.
Either charge him with something or move on to the issues facing the American people for the mid-terms. Even CNN said that the hearings will not affect the midterms one bit. How about working to pass a federal law legalizing a birthing person's right to choose? That will motivate the midterm voters. How about working to reduce inflation? The dems spend too much time working on theories. The repubs spend their time working on practical solutions to their insane theories. The repubs are developing a back bench of candidates that will motivate the base such as DeSantis. The dems have...Kamala? They are pushing Biden out. Even the NYT is getting into it. The dems need to focus on finding candidates for 2024 instead of trying to stop one republican candidate, Trump, from running again. Trump is not even the repubs most liked candidate. The dems are better off letting Trump, Cruz and DeSantis and whomever fight it out rather than eliminate the biggest irritant.
Rather than work to maintain control of both houses of congress, they are working to prevent Trump from...from what? Stopping Trump from running again through the hearings is a longshot and probably counter to the dems interest. Trying to convince the Proud Boys that they should become Antifa?
Maybe the hearings help the national democratic party's fund raising?
The Committee should declare victory and move on.
(They should also know that if they lose the House in the 2022 election, they will be facing hearings of their own. There is plenty of ammunition to go after Joe Biden and his family graft ways.
posted by JohnnyGunn at 10:42 AM on July 12, 2022 [5 favorites]
“ Cynicism is often seen as a rebellious attitude in western popular culture, but in reality, our cynicism advances the desires of the powerful: cynicism is obedience.” — Alex Steffen
posted by gauche at 10:48 AM on July 12, 2022 [96 favorites]
posted by gauche at 10:48 AM on July 12, 2022 [96 favorites]
Credulity is also obedience.
Anyone reading the recent NYT article about how the DOJ was "jolted" by Hutchinson's testimony and is now, heaven forfend, sometimes actually talking about Trump in the presence of Merrick Garland should be under no illusions about the likelihood of significant consequences here.
posted by Gadarene at 10:51 AM on July 12, 2022 [11 favorites]
Anyone reading the recent NYT article about how the DOJ was "jolted" by Hutchinson's testimony and is now, heaven forfend, sometimes actually talking about Trump in the presence of Merrick Garland should be under no illusions about the likelihood of significant consequences here.
posted by Gadarene at 10:51 AM on July 12, 2022 [11 favorites]
An account of the Meeting From Hell that is likely one of the big reasons that Cipollone's testimony may be extremely important.
If the account is accurate, Cipollone was in the room for Powell's "you should simply appoint me special counsel and seize all the machines" argument, and can clearly demonstrate that Trump was neither willfully blind nor horribly misled, but was an active participant in the election-theft scheming.
posted by delfin at 10:51 AM on July 12, 2022 [9 favorites]
If the account is accurate, Cipollone was in the room for Powell's "you should simply appoint me special counsel and seize all the machines" argument, and can clearly demonstrate that Trump was neither willfully blind nor horribly misled, but was an active participant in the election-theft scheming.
posted by delfin at 10:51 AM on July 12, 2022 [9 favorites]
Dang, Derek Lyons has some Zoom game. He's in a room that has both a baseball bat with the word 'JUSTICE' written on it and a mural of a panda.
posted by box at 10:51 AM on July 12, 2022 [3 favorites]
posted by box at 10:51 AM on July 12, 2022 [3 favorites]
One comment deleted. Please refer to the Content Policy: "Violence: It can be okay to talk in strongly critical terms about people's words but don't cross the line into any threats of violence or wishing violence on other people."
This, unfortunately, being the only reliable, history-tested method for defeating fascists.
posted by ryanshepard at 10:52 AM on July 12, 2022 [25 favorites]
This, unfortunately, being the only reliable, history-tested method for defeating fascists.
posted by ryanshepard at 10:52 AM on July 12, 2022 [25 favorites]
Power, Flynn & Patrick Byrne (the overstock.com guy) met with Trump for six hours in an unscheduled meeting where they presented all the completely crazy conspiracy things to Trump at that meeting.
The official advisors, including Cipollone and Herschmann tried to talk it down, asking for the evidence, etc. It devolved into screaming, swearing and threats of physical fights. I think the talk of fighting was between Flynn & Herschmann, which seems pretty predictable on both sides, honestly.
posted by bcd at 10:52 AM on July 12, 2022
The official advisors, including Cipollone and Herschmann tried to talk it down, asking for the evidence, etc. It devolved into screaming, swearing and threats of physical fights. I think the talk of fighting was between Flynn & Herschmann, which seems pretty predictable on both sides, honestly.
posted by bcd at 10:52 AM on July 12, 2022
What exactly will the DOJ charge Trump with? Carjacking?
You don't think treason and interfering with electoral process are options?
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 10:52 AM on July 12, 2022 [21 favorites]
You don't think treason and interfering with electoral process are options?
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 10:52 AM on July 12, 2022 [21 favorites]
The fact that this is happening now via committee rather than on January 7th, 2021 via Secret Service forcibly putting people in cuffs means they've already done it wrong, IMO.
You mean, you'd prefer the way fascists do things?
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 10:53 AM on July 12, 2022 [8 favorites]
You mean, you'd prefer the way fascists do things?
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 10:53 AM on July 12, 2022 [8 favorites]
You don't think treason and interfering with electoral process are options?
The latter is, but the American definition of treason doesn’t fit.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 10:54 AM on July 12, 2022 [2 favorites]
The latter is, but the American definition of treason doesn’t fit.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 10:54 AM on July 12, 2022 [2 favorites]
You mean, you'd prefer the way fascists do things?
Fascists also wear their left shoe on their left foot and their right shoe on their right foot, same as me.
I still would want the people arrested to stand trial, because I'm not a fascist, but yes, immediately after people committed crimes in plain view, they should have been apprehended and the process should have begun.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 10:54 AM on July 12, 2022 [24 favorites]
Fascists also wear their left shoe on their left foot and their right shoe on their right foot, same as me.
I still would want the people arrested to stand trial, because I'm not a fascist, but yes, immediately after people committed crimes in plain view, they should have been apprehended and the process should have begun.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 10:54 AM on July 12, 2022 [24 favorites]
Yeah, but they’re… bad, Empress! I guess “a good guy with a gun” meme appeals to us all in some way.
posted by OnTheLastCastle at 10:55 AM on July 12, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by OnTheLastCastle at 10:55 AM on July 12, 2022 [1 favorite]
The term in American law is sedition. In other republics it would be capital treason.
posted by ocschwar at 10:55 AM on July 12, 2022 [10 favorites]
posted by ocschwar at 10:55 AM on July 12, 2022 [10 favorites]
Appears we were even closer to Powell being a Special Counsel with security clearances - the only thing that prevented it was Cipollone not helping Trump get the actual paperwork required for that filled out and filed. That is terrifying.
posted by bcd at 10:55 AM on July 12, 2022 [7 favorites]
posted by bcd at 10:55 AM on July 12, 2022 [7 favorites]
I mean, if your take is, "Sure we all saw the coup attempted, but sometimes you need 18-20 months and a committee to be sure, as acting immediately on that would have been fascism" that is definitely a take in line with the current Democratic leadership, sure.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 10:57 AM on July 12, 2022 [32 favorites]
posted by DirtyOldTown at 10:57 AM on July 12, 2022 [32 favorites]
So Trump thought he could just say Sidney Powell was Special Counsel and had security clearance and that this was enough to make it so.
- I DECLARE BANKRUPTCY!
- Hey. I just wanted you to know that you can't just say the word "bankruptcy" and expect anything to happen.
- I didn't say it. I declared it.
posted by essexjan at 10:58 AM on July 12, 2022 [10 favorites]
- I DECLARE BANKRUPTCY!
- Hey. I just wanted you to know that you can't just say the word "bankruptcy" and expect anything to happen.
- I didn't say it. I declared it.
posted by essexjan at 10:58 AM on July 12, 2022 [10 favorites]
Not filling out paperwork correctly was a real weakness of the Trump presidency.
posted by OnTheLastCastle at 10:58 AM on July 12, 2022 [9 favorites]
posted by OnTheLastCastle at 10:58 AM on July 12, 2022 [9 favorites]
I mean, if your take is, "Sure we all saw the coup attempted, but sometimes you need 18-20 months and a committee to be sure, acting immediately would have been fascism" that is definitely a take in line with the current Democratic leadership, sure.
Whom would you have charged, what would you have charged them with, and with what evidence?
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 11:00 AM on July 12, 2022 [6 favorites]
Whom would you have charged, what would you have charged them with, and with what evidence?
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 11:00 AM on July 12, 2022 [6 favorites]
My take is that perfect should never be the enemy of good. However accountability for this truly bananas attempt to seize power and destroy the US happens is good, but will never be perfect. ‘Should have’ is ridiculous fan commentary at this point.
posted by LooseFilter at 11:02 AM on July 12, 2022 [9 favorites]
posted by LooseFilter at 11:02 AM on July 12, 2022 [9 favorites]
"The Red Wedding is a pop culture reference to mass slaughter."
posted by jenfullmoon at 11:02 AM on July 12, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by jenfullmoon at 11:02 AM on July 12, 2022 [1 favorite]
I've generally been very impressed with their witness choices, but "random former, anonymous Twitter employee" is not working for me in the slightest.
posted by bcd at 11:03 AM on July 12, 2022
posted by bcd at 11:03 AM on July 12, 2022
I’ve never thought that the purpose of these public hearings has been to result in legal consequences for Trump. They wouldn’t have to be public for that.
As far as I can tell the purpose of the hearings is the hammer home that Trump is unpatriotic. A certain amount of Trump’s base is on board because he stands up for ‘MURICA, and sowing doubt about that is in the Democrats best interest. The Democrats would prefer just about anyone other than Trump to run against in the next presidential election.
It was surprisingly astute of them to hire a television exec to run the hearings for them. The spectacle, the surprise witnesses, the new evidence arriving during the process — I’d say we’re in about act 3 right now. Sure it’s a format I’ve seen over and over, but it’s still gripping television.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 11:04 AM on July 12, 2022 [19 favorites]
As far as I can tell the purpose of the hearings is the hammer home that Trump is unpatriotic. A certain amount of Trump’s base is on board because he stands up for ‘MURICA, and sowing doubt about that is in the Democrats best interest. The Democrats would prefer just about anyone other than Trump to run against in the next presidential election.
It was surprisingly astute of them to hire a television exec to run the hearings for them. The spectacle, the surprise witnesses, the new evidence arriving during the process — I’d say we’re in about act 3 right now. Sure it’s a format I’ve seen over and over, but it’s still gripping television.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 11:04 AM on July 12, 2022 [19 favorites]
If my sense of urgency on investigating this coup seems too much, I would only remind you that the people who attempted said coup are: a) still in their positions of power; b) rewriting laws/rules/processes to improve their tool kit for the next time they try it; c) are apt to gain additional power in both the 2022 and 2024 elections.
We are at a point where the choice is between expediency and collapse. Me saying we needed January 7th arrests was hyperbole, yeah, but surely there were many, many more immediate options for a democracy than discussing the coup a year and a half later via committee?
posted by DirtyOldTown at 11:11 AM on July 12, 2022 [22 favorites]
We are at a point where the choice is between expediency and collapse. Me saying we needed January 7th arrests was hyperbole, yeah, but surely there were many, many more immediate options for a democracy than discussing the coup a year and a half later via committee?
posted by DirtyOldTown at 11:11 AM on July 12, 2022 [22 favorites]
There was a chunk of highlighting just how vile and violent the pro-Trump crowd was on places like thedonald.win and 8kun, including brief bits of interviews with the owners of both sites. For those who haven't been following the cesspool, it's pretty clear that the original QAnon is one of the Watkins, either father or son, behind 8kun. (Not that the larger QAnon movement hasn't become a syncretic mix of all manner of racists and charlatans of other stripes.)
posted by bcd at 11:12 AM on July 12, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by bcd at 11:12 AM on July 12, 2022 [2 favorites]
Dang, Derek Lyons has some Zoom game
That's Eric Herschmann, a Trump White House lawyer.
posted by Rumple at 11:13 AM on July 12, 2022 [3 favorites]
That's Eric Herschmann, a Trump White House lawyer.
posted by Rumple at 11:13 AM on July 12, 2022 [3 favorites]
One alternate possible outcome (better but also worse): DeSantis 100% wants the presidency. And an awful lot of Republicans seem to really respect him (god help us) - not more than Trump, but more than a lot of other options. Right now the writing is very, very much on the wall here for Trump, and only growing more pronounced with every hearing.
DeSantis has it in his hands to make this work for him by turning on Trump on the basis of this evidence. I truly believe not one Republican in that hall besides Gaetz and Taylor Greene and Boebert loves Trump after January 6th - they just see backing him as politically necessary. If Trump is arrested he neutralizes the opposition.
It's all gain for DeSantis if it works. All the tools Trump and his cronies created are still in place to rig the next election for him. He gets to call himself a patriot. And I'll bet he'll still maintain his ties to a lot of his own far right base because once someone is disgraced, everyone suddenly remembers the reasons they never reeeally liked the guy.
Why wait four more years when he has this lever right now?
It's an insane long shot, but I'm sure he's mulling it, and I also wouldn't bet money he and McConnell aren't spitballing scenarios.
posted by Mchelly at 11:13 AM on July 12, 2022 [10 favorites]
DeSantis has it in his hands to make this work for him by turning on Trump on the basis of this evidence. I truly believe not one Republican in that hall besides Gaetz and Taylor Greene and Boebert loves Trump after January 6th - they just see backing him as politically necessary. If Trump is arrested he neutralizes the opposition.
It's all gain for DeSantis if it works. All the tools Trump and his cronies created are still in place to rig the next election for him. He gets to call himself a patriot. And I'll bet he'll still maintain his ties to a lot of his own far right base because once someone is disgraced, everyone suddenly remembers the reasons they never reeeally liked the guy.
Why wait four more years when he has this lever right now?
It's an insane long shot, but I'm sure he's mulling it, and I also wouldn't bet money he and McConnell aren't spitballing scenarios.
posted by Mchelly at 11:13 AM on July 12, 2022 [10 favorites]
As far as I can tell the purpose of the hearings is the hammer home that Trump is unpatriotic. A certain amount of Trump’s base is on board because he stands up for ‘MURICA, and sowing doubt about that is in the Democrats best interest.
I think that probably is their goal, yeah. And it's woefully wrongheaded. I'm really over this fixation on shaming or revealing the hypocrisy of Republicans. They don't have a sense of shame. And their answer to hypocrisy is that they're simply saying the quiet part out loud these days. They want what they want. They're absolutely detached from feeling any shame or embarrassment about that anymore.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 11:17 AM on July 12, 2022 [36 favorites]
I think that probably is their goal, yeah. And it's woefully wrongheaded. I'm really over this fixation on shaming or revealing the hypocrisy of Republicans. They don't have a sense of shame. And their answer to hypocrisy is that they're simply saying the quiet part out loud these days. They want what they want. They're absolutely detached from feeling any shame or embarrassment about that anymore.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 11:17 AM on July 12, 2022 [36 favorites]
I know it's crazy, but I watch a lot of Survivor, and when one person becomes so powerful it becomes toxic and makes everyone afraid of them, especially when they're unpredictable or irrational, the other people who want to win find ways to take them down.
posted by Mchelly at 11:17 AM on July 12, 2022 [5 favorites]
posted by Mchelly at 11:17 AM on July 12, 2022 [5 favorites]
If my sense of urgency on investigating this coup seems too much, I would only remind you that the people who attempted said coup are: a) still in their positions of power; b) rewriting laws/rules/processes to improve their tool kit for the next time they try it; c) are apt to gain additional power in both the 2022 and 2024 elections.
People like who?
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 11:18 AM on July 12, 2022 [3 favorites]
People like who?
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 11:18 AM on July 12, 2022 [3 favorites]
Whom would you have charged, what would you have charged them with, and with what evidence?
Trump, most of 18 USC Chapter 115 (directly or by solicitation), with the evidence of him telling the mob to go to the capitol on the basis that the election was stolen, followed by the mob going to the capitol and attempting to overthrow the government. The rest of the evidence is gathered between the arrest and the trial, same as most criminal cases.
An indictment only requires probable cause. Additional charges can be added via superseding indictments as evidence is gathered.
Instead, the DOJ ran their usual strategy of starting with the easy, small fish: individual rioters. Then moving up to the Proud Boys and more organized groups, hoping that they could eventually roll up all the way up to Trump. But Trump has had several decades of experience with organized crime tactics of avoiding explicitly telling people to commit crimes. Instead, he just lets people know the result he wants, then they pursue it by criminal means. There does not actually appear to have been organized coordination between the Trump White House and the rioters.
My guess is that nothing will happen with Trump himself at the federal level. The DOJ already gave up in New York despite the prosecutors believing in the strength of the case. State criminal charges in NY are also unlikely at this point, and the civil case won't be enough to bankrupt him. We might see an indictment in Georgia.
If the feds do prosecute Trump, Biden should not run again (he probably shouldn't run again anyway). Frame it as "2020 was a shitshow, let's start over with new candidates in 2024".
the people who attempted said coup are: a) still in their positions of power; b) rewriting laws/rules/processes to improve their tool kit for the next time they try it; c) are apt to gain additional power in both the 2022 and 2024 elections.
Pretty much all of the members of Congress who voted not to accept the electors, plus a bunch of Republican state and local legislators and officials who supported the coup, plus a new bunch of Republican candidates for office who are explicitly running on a platform that Trump won.
posted by jedicus at 11:22 AM on July 12, 2022 [17 favorites]
Trump, most of 18 USC Chapter 115 (directly or by solicitation), with the evidence of him telling the mob to go to the capitol on the basis that the election was stolen, followed by the mob going to the capitol and attempting to overthrow the government. The rest of the evidence is gathered between the arrest and the trial, same as most criminal cases.
An indictment only requires probable cause. Additional charges can be added via superseding indictments as evidence is gathered.
Instead, the DOJ ran their usual strategy of starting with the easy, small fish: individual rioters. Then moving up to the Proud Boys and more organized groups, hoping that they could eventually roll up all the way up to Trump. But Trump has had several decades of experience with organized crime tactics of avoiding explicitly telling people to commit crimes. Instead, he just lets people know the result he wants, then they pursue it by criminal means. There does not actually appear to have been organized coordination between the Trump White House and the rioters.
My guess is that nothing will happen with Trump himself at the federal level. The DOJ already gave up in New York despite the prosecutors believing in the strength of the case. State criminal charges in NY are also unlikely at this point, and the civil case won't be enough to bankrupt him. We might see an indictment in Georgia.
If the feds do prosecute Trump, Biden should not run again (he probably shouldn't run again anyway). Frame it as "2020 was a shitshow, let's start over with new candidates in 2024".
the people who attempted said coup are: a) still in their positions of power; b) rewriting laws/rules/processes to improve their tool kit for the next time they try it; c) are apt to gain additional power in both the 2022 and 2024 elections.
Pretty much all of the members of Congress who voted not to accept the electors, plus a bunch of Republican state and local legislators and officials who supported the coup, plus a new bunch of Republican candidates for office who are explicitly running on a platform that Trump won.
posted by jedicus at 11:22 AM on July 12, 2022 [17 favorites]
EC, my suspicion is that we're not going to end up in the same place no matter how many comments we take to try and get there.
I really just don't think anything is going to come of this committee. My opinion on that is based on how long they took. I can see you don't feel the same. Fair enough.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 11:22 AM on July 12, 2022 [7 favorites]
I really just don't think anything is going to come of this committee. My opinion on that is based on how long they took. I can see you don't feel the same. Fair enough.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 11:22 AM on July 12, 2022 [7 favorites]
Whom would you have charged, what would you have charged them with, and with what evidence?
Cassidy Hutchinson’s Testimony Changed Our Minds About Indicting Donald Trump suggests 18 U.S.C. § 2101 (incitement to riot), 18 U.S.C. 1512(c)(2) (obstruction of congress), and 18 U.S.C. § 2383 (insurrection). And it's an article by two authors who were pretty negative about the prospects for charging him before.
posted by BungaDunga at 11:26 AM on July 12, 2022 [15 favorites]
Cassidy Hutchinson’s Testimony Changed Our Minds About Indicting Donald Trump suggests 18 U.S.C. § 2101 (incitement to riot), 18 U.S.C. 1512(c)(2) (obstruction of congress), and 18 U.S.C. § 2383 (insurrection). And it's an article by two authors who were pretty negative about the prospects for charging him before.
posted by BungaDunga at 11:26 AM on July 12, 2022 [15 favorites]
I, for one. am so glad the January 6th committee is doing what they are doing. The committee is directly pointed at Trump and continues to be in an amazingly effective way. Liz Cheney - who I disagree with on every position she has - continues to be magnificent and it looked to me that she was starting to point more directly at Mark Meadows and possible crimes. I don't know, and you don't either, what will come of this but I hope that this leads to a treason conviction for all of these traitors.
posted by bluesky43 at 11:27 AM on July 12, 2022 [19 favorites]
posted by bluesky43 at 11:27 AM on July 12, 2022 [19 favorites]
As far as I can tell the purpose of the hearings is the hammer home that Trump is unpatriotic.
Nope. The hearings are demonstrating in excruciating detail that Trump is a treasonous, fascist traitor who was willing to overthrow the constitution in order to remain in power.
posted by bluesky43 at 11:30 AM on July 12, 2022 [32 favorites]
Nope. The hearings are demonstrating in excruciating detail that Trump is a treasonous, fascist traitor who was willing to overthrow the constitution in order to remain in power.
posted by bluesky43 at 11:30 AM on July 12, 2022 [32 favorites]
I hope the optimists here are right and I am wrong.
I'm very worried though that the Democrats' counterattack to this coup is either mostly symbolic or is going to take longer than it takes to stage the next coup.
If I'm wrong on that, I humbly promise to log on and listen to as many "Told you so" comments as people care to lob at me. I'll be glad to do it.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 11:30 AM on July 12, 2022 [30 favorites]
I'm very worried though that the Democrats' counterattack to this coup is either mostly symbolic or is going to take longer than it takes to stage the next coup.
If I'm wrong on that, I humbly promise to log on and listen to as many "Told you so" comments as people care to lob at me. I'll be glad to do it.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 11:30 AM on July 12, 2022 [30 favorites]
They're letting these next two racist witnesses sweat in the holding room, so to speak.
posted by Rumple at 11:30 AM on July 12, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by Rumple at 11:30 AM on July 12, 2022 [1 favorite]
Pretty much all of the members of Congress who voted not to accept the electors, plus a bunch of Republican state and local legislators and officials who supported the coup, plus a new bunch of Republican candidates for office who are explicitly running on a platform that Trump won.
Voting against something is not necessarily a criminal act, nor is running for office based on a batshit claim. When you speak of officials who "supported the coup", what kind of "support" do you mean? If it was just saying something like "yay the coup was awesome" in public, then...that's not a criminal act either.
My point is that building a legal case takes time, and needs actual evidence to stand on. The danger about Trump and his cronies isn't just what they do - it's that they know how to cover their tracks real good, and they know how to stay just this side of the law for most of what they do. That's why it took so long for this hearing to get going - not because people were dicking around. They were trying to find actual evidence as opposed to "come on, the dude's guilty as shit, you can just tell".
That's frustrating to wait for, and I understand. But that's the way our legal system has been set up.
Also, this is not just a "Democratic" committee, it is bipartisan. Liz Cheney has been quite prominent in the hearings, you will note.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 11:34 AM on July 12, 2022 [28 favorites]
Voting against something is not necessarily a criminal act, nor is running for office based on a batshit claim. When you speak of officials who "supported the coup", what kind of "support" do you mean? If it was just saying something like "yay the coup was awesome" in public, then...that's not a criminal act either.
My point is that building a legal case takes time, and needs actual evidence to stand on. The danger about Trump and his cronies isn't just what they do - it's that they know how to cover their tracks real good, and they know how to stay just this side of the law for most of what they do. That's why it took so long for this hearing to get going - not because people were dicking around. They were trying to find actual evidence as opposed to "come on, the dude's guilty as shit, you can just tell".
That's frustrating to wait for, and I understand. But that's the way our legal system has been set up.
Also, this is not just a "Democratic" committee, it is bipartisan. Liz Cheney has been quite prominent in the hearings, you will note.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 11:34 AM on July 12, 2022 [28 favorites]
Raskin is focusing now on the coordination between Proud Boys, Oath Keepers and people in Trump's orbit, starting with Michael Flynn & Roger Stone, both of whom Trump pardoned. The themes are not new, but the details and specific evidence are new to me.
posted by bcd at 11:39 AM on July 12, 2022 [5 favorites]
posted by bcd at 11:39 AM on July 12, 2022 [5 favorites]
A lot of this is new, specific information from encrypted chats, I think.
posted by LooseFilter at 11:40 AM on July 12, 2022 [4 favorites]
posted by LooseFilter at 11:40 AM on July 12, 2022 [4 favorites]
Also, this is not just a "Democratic" committee, it is bipartisan. Liz Cheney has been quite prominent in the hearings, you will note.
QFT. The pro-coup side, including Fox News, have been trying to cast the committee as partisan simply because after Kevin McCarthy failed to installed his ringers on the committee he pulled his caucus' official support (exactly so he could dishonestly say it was "partisan").
But it isn't partisan, it just isn't pro-Trump, no matter how many Quislings there are in the Republican Party.
posted by Gelatin at 11:41 AM on July 12, 2022 [15 favorites]
QFT. The pro-coup side, including Fox News, have been trying to cast the committee as partisan simply because after Kevin McCarthy failed to installed his ringers on the committee he pulled his caucus' official support (exactly so he could dishonestly say it was "partisan").
But it isn't partisan, it just isn't pro-Trump, no matter how many Quislings there are in the Republican Party.
posted by Gelatin at 11:41 AM on July 12, 2022 [15 favorites]
these white nationalist groups seem like a bunch of wannabe warriors who joined a club. Honestly, who are these men who seem to have nothing in their lives but hate and violence? (rhetorical question)
posted by bluesky43 at 11:42 AM on July 12, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by bluesky43 at 11:42 AM on July 12, 2022 [1 favorite]
I'm very worried though
I fully share this worry. Trying hard to look for the helpers, though.
posted by LooseFilter at 11:42 AM on July 12, 2022 [1 favorite]
I fully share this worry. Trying hard to look for the helpers, though.
posted by LooseFilter at 11:42 AM on July 12, 2022 [1 favorite]
The reason it's bad to have these hearings with no results is that it demonstrates the power of the GOP and the corruption of the government. It emboldens the GOP because they learn that no matter how much people know, they can never act, not even to preserve the most basic aspect of a democracy. It demoralizes the Democratic base, for the same reason. It shows young/youngish people that their doubts about the federal government and the Democrats are in fact correct.
If people have not had this demonstrated to them up close and in microscopic detail over and over and over for four years, they may possibly maintain enough hope and engagement to at least try to make change, and it may be that several years down the road conditions will have changed enough that this could do some good. Better to be slightly misinformed if it enables you to act than to be completely informed if it saps your will.
It's all very well to lay this on individuals and spout platitudes about hope being a discipline and it being immoral to despair, etc, but if I were a politician I wouldn't be going around showing my soft underbelly every chance I got while carrying a big sign that read "look at my soft underbelly I am one step from being eviscerated". You can tell people to hope all you like, but if you do nothing but give them reason to despair and detach, you're still doing a shitty job.
posted by Frowner at 11:44 AM on July 12, 2022 [17 favorites]
If people have not had this demonstrated to them up close and in microscopic detail over and over and over for four years, they may possibly maintain enough hope and engagement to at least try to make change, and it may be that several years down the road conditions will have changed enough that this could do some good. Better to be slightly misinformed if it enables you to act than to be completely informed if it saps your will.
It's all very well to lay this on individuals and spout platitudes about hope being a discipline and it being immoral to despair, etc, but if I were a politician I wouldn't be going around showing my soft underbelly every chance I got while carrying a big sign that read "look at my soft underbelly I am one step from being eviscerated". You can tell people to hope all you like, but if you do nothing but give them reason to despair and detach, you're still doing a shitty job.
posted by Frowner at 11:44 AM on July 12, 2022 [17 favorites]
Murphy showing evidence that the plan for Trump to 'unexpected' call for the march on the Capitol was not remotely spontaneous, but planned and discussed secretly days in advance.
posted by bcd at 11:49 AM on July 12, 2022 [3 favorites]
posted by bcd at 11:49 AM on July 12, 2022 [3 favorites]
The reason it's bad to have these hearings with no results is that it demonstrates the power of the GOP and the corruption of the government.
Well, yeah, but who said that there would be "no results"?
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 11:50 AM on July 12, 2022 [5 favorites]
Well, yeah, but who said that there would be "no results"?
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 11:50 AM on July 12, 2022 [5 favorites]
The reason it's bad to have these hearings with no results is that it demonstrates the power of the GOP and the corruption of the government.
Well, yeah, but who said that there would be "no results"?
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 11:50 AM
I'm not really understanding how those commenting that nothing will happen as a result of these hearings continue to state this as fact. As I wrote above, you don't know and I don't know what will happen. I would wager that the Justice Department or the Jan 6th Committee don't know either. These facts do not negate the importance of establishing the intended overthrow of the US Government by the sitting President of the United States.
posted by bluesky43 at 11:54 AM on July 12, 2022 [12 favorites]
Well, yeah, but who said that there would be "no results"?
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 11:50 AM
I'm not really understanding how those commenting that nothing will happen as a result of these hearings continue to state this as fact. As I wrote above, you don't know and I don't know what will happen. I would wager that the Justice Department or the Jan 6th Committee don't know either. These facts do not negate the importance of establishing the intended overthrow of the US Government by the sitting President of the United States.
posted by bluesky43 at 11:54 AM on July 12, 2022 [12 favorites]
Well, yeah, but who said that there would be "no results"?
If memory serves me correctly, the hearings are moving public opinion not only that Trump attempted to usurp the presidency illegally, but also that he didn't actually win the election. Even, albeit slightly, among Republicans, though of course most of them deny it.
posted by Gelatin at 11:55 AM on July 12, 2022 [15 favorites]
If memory serves me correctly, the hearings are moving public opinion not only that Trump attempted to usurp the presidency illegally, but also that he didn't actually win the election. Even, albeit slightly, among Republicans, though of course most of them deny it.
posted by Gelatin at 11:55 AM on July 12, 2022 [15 favorites]
I had to clean the dust off my eyeballs after the rolled right onto the floor when Cipollone said he thought Pence should get the Congressional Medal of Freedom for doing the bare minimum of his job and not engaging in sedition with the rest of them on the 6th.
posted by bcd at 11:56 AM on July 12, 2022 [35 favorites]
posted by bcd at 11:56 AM on July 12, 2022 [35 favorites]
> Well, yeah, but who said that there would be "no results"?
If memory serves me correctly, the hearings are moving public opinion not only that Trump attempted to usurp the presidency illegally, but also that he didn't actually win the election. Even, albeit slightly, among Republicans, though of course most of them deny it.
Yeah, I know, I was thinking more about the people who wanted arrests five minutes after the coup even happened. Somehow.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 11:58 AM on July 12, 2022 [4 favorites]
If memory serves me correctly, the hearings are moving public opinion not only that Trump attempted to usurp the presidency illegally, but also that he didn't actually win the election. Even, albeit slightly, among Republicans, though of course most of them deny it.
Yeah, I know, I was thinking more about the people who wanted arrests five minutes after the coup even happened. Somehow.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 11:58 AM on July 12, 2022 [4 favorites]
"The hearings are demonstrating in excruciating detail that Trump is a treasonous, fascist traitor who was willing to overthrow the constitution in order to remain in power."
posted by bluesky43 at 2:30
I cannot emphasize nor add to this statement and it's importance.
Think what one may...
"Retired Marine Corps Major General Smedley Butler asserted that wealthy businessmen were plotting to create a fascist veterans' organization with Butler as its leader and use it in a coup d'état to overthrow Roosevelt. In 1934, Butler testified under oath before the United States House of Representatives Special Committee on Un-American Activities (the "McCormack–Dickstein Committee") on these revelations. Although no one was prosecuted, the congressional committee final report said, "there is no question that these attempts were discussed, were planned, and might have been placed in execution when and if the financial backers deemed it expedient."
posted by clavdivs at 12:00 PM on July 12, 2022 [22 favorites]
posted by bluesky43 at 2:30
I cannot emphasize nor add to this statement and it's importance.
Think what one may...
"Retired Marine Corps Major General Smedley Butler asserted that wealthy businessmen were plotting to create a fascist veterans' organization with Butler as its leader and use it in a coup d'état to overthrow Roosevelt. In 1934, Butler testified under oath before the United States House of Representatives Special Committee on Un-American Activities (the "McCormack–Dickstein Committee") on these revelations. Although no one was prosecuted, the congressional committee final report said, "there is no question that these attempts were discussed, were planned, and might have been placed in execution when and if the financial backers deemed it expedient."
posted by clavdivs at 12:00 PM on July 12, 2022 [22 favorites]
What do results look like? For the purpose of the question, let's say that "establishing a record" doesn't count, since that is clearly happening and in general seems like it would be insufficient if it were the only thing to happen.
Assume that a record is established - what would be the minimum results to make us feel that something was achieved?
(So, for instance, if the GOP threw one obscure member of the administration to the wolves and everyone else walked away - the way one guy went to jail during the financial crisis - I would not view that as sufficient results, but I would not hold out for "literally everyone involved goes to jail for a long time" as the only acceptable outcome.)
posted by Frowner at 12:00 PM on July 12, 2022 [3 favorites]
Assume that a record is established - what would be the minimum results to make us feel that something was achieved?
(So, for instance, if the GOP threw one obscure member of the administration to the wolves and everyone else walked away - the way one guy went to jail during the financial crisis - I would not view that as sufficient results, but I would not hold out for "literally everyone involved goes to jail for a long time" as the only acceptable outcome.)
posted by Frowner at 12:00 PM on July 12, 2022 [3 favorites]
Sorry, my point was that the hearings are already having results, in that they are changing public opinion, which in turn encourages support for other action by officials.
posted by Gelatin at 12:01 PM on July 12, 2022 [13 favorites]
posted by Gelatin at 12:01 PM on July 12, 2022 [13 favorites]
Why is this random twitter guy playing such a prominent role? There are so many other ways to show that Trump's tweets were agitating all kinds of people in all kinds of forums.
posted by bluesky43 at 12:04 PM on July 12, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by bluesky43 at 12:04 PM on July 12, 2022 [2 favorites]
Yeah, I know, I was thinking more about the people who wanted arrests five minutes after the coup even happened. Somehow.
I mean usually when you do a violent crime in public you don't have to wait for weeks to get arrested.
posted by Pope Guilty at 12:05 PM on July 12, 2022 [24 favorites]
I mean usually when you do a violent crime in public you don't have to wait for weeks to get arrested.
posted by Pope Guilty at 12:05 PM on July 12, 2022 [24 favorites]
Boom. recordings of conversations of GOP congress people on the night of Jan 5th. These people should be prosecuted too.
posted by bluesky43 at 12:06 PM on July 12, 2022 [16 favorites]
posted by bluesky43 at 12:06 PM on July 12, 2022 [16 favorites]
Could we please cut down on the fussing about the outcome?
posted by kirkaracha at 12:06 PM on July 12, 2022 [34 favorites]
posted by kirkaracha at 12:06 PM on July 12, 2022 [34 favorites]
I’m surprised to see that Stephen Miller didn’t plead the fifth
posted by wabbittwax at 12:10 PM on July 12, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by wabbittwax at 12:10 PM on July 12, 2022 [2 favorites]
Apologies for my phrasing in my above statement. I did not intend to attack other members of our family here. That was intended to be the crazed, maddened laughing of someone watching the continual destruction of their way of life.
I absolutely think this exercise needs to happen just to get it on the record for the history books. But I still think nothing comes of this, and nothing meaningful happens to any powerful people. Some folks way down the food chain will get hand slaps. Fox News will continue to lie to the majority of the population, and this will turn into yet another thing the right wing mocks. I've seen too many investigations of Republicans and confirmations for religious fanatic judges to believe that anything good comes out of a room with Republicans sitting in it.
Protests haven't worked since Viet Nam. Congress is based on compromise and one party won't. The country continues to burn down the road to fascist theocracy. On top of that the environment is failing starting with the West Coast where I live. So yeah, I'm going insane.
posted by Abehammerb Lincoln at 12:15 PM on July 12, 2022 [16 favorites]
I absolutely think this exercise needs to happen just to get it on the record for the history books. But I still think nothing comes of this, and nothing meaningful happens to any powerful people. Some folks way down the food chain will get hand slaps. Fox News will continue to lie to the majority of the population, and this will turn into yet another thing the right wing mocks. I've seen too many investigations of Republicans and confirmations for religious fanatic judges to believe that anything good comes out of a room with Republicans sitting in it.
Protests haven't worked since Viet Nam. Congress is based on compromise and one party won't. The country continues to burn down the road to fascist theocracy. On top of that the environment is failing starting with the West Coast where I live. So yeah, I'm going insane.
posted by Abehammerb Lincoln at 12:15 PM on July 12, 2022 [16 favorites]
I would like to suggest that those interested in debating the potential outcome of the hearings take it to MetaTalk. I don't see that as a productive discussion in this thread.
posted by bluesky43 at 12:17 PM on July 12, 2022 [33 favorites]
posted by bluesky43 at 12:17 PM on July 12, 2022 [33 favorites]
I know it's crazy, but I watch a lot of Survivor, and when one person becomes so powerful it becomes toxic and makes everyone afraid of them, especially when they're unpredictable or irrational, the other people who want to win find ways to take them down.
Your mouth to God's ears!
posted by jenfullmoon at 12:19 PM on July 12, 2022 [1 favorite]
Your mouth to God's ears!
posted by jenfullmoon at 12:19 PM on July 12, 2022 [1 favorite]
Anybody know who the dude is on the t-shirt of the woman sitting behind van Tatenhove (the oath keepers former spokesperson)?
posted by bluesky43 at 12:19 PM on July 12, 2022 [3 favorites]
posted by bluesky43 at 12:19 PM on July 12, 2022 [3 favorites]
I mean usually when you do a violent crime in public you don't have to wait for weeks to get arrested.
Both the Oath Keepers/Proud Boys dudes testifying now have been arrested, they said.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 12:19 PM on July 12, 2022 [4 favorites]
Both the Oath Keepers/Proud Boys dudes testifying now have been arrested, they said.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 12:19 PM on July 12, 2022 [4 favorites]
The live witnesses are up - starting with a Van Tatenhove, who was involved with the Oath Keepers from the time of the Bundy ranch episode. I think that's a good callback about how deep the rot goes, even just for that one named group. He's clear about how they are a dangerous, white-nationalist militia.
posted by bcd at 12:20 PM on July 12, 2022 [10 favorites]
posted by bcd at 12:20 PM on July 12, 2022 [10 favorites]
Protests haven't worked since Viet Nam. Congress is based on compromise and one party won't
Bingo. protests can work but your right about congress. And that's the danger.
remember what fear looks like.
posted by clavdivs at 12:22 PM on July 12, 2022 [2 favorites]
Bingo. protests can work but your right about congress. And that's the danger.
remember what fear looks like.
posted by clavdivs at 12:22 PM on July 12, 2022 [2 favorites]
no sense discussing things, is it ?
People may have feelings about it, so no. I get that some folks aren't feeling the doom the way some of us are. (And again, I would love love love to be very, very wrong.) But those of us pessimistic about this committee and describing their feelings of futility about it are very much on topic, like it or not.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 12:26 PM on July 12, 2022 [2 favorites]
People may have feelings about it, so no. I get that some folks aren't feeling the doom the way some of us are. (And again, I would love love love to be very, very wrong.) But those of us pessimistic about this committee and describing their feelings of futility about it are very much on topic, like it or not.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 12:26 PM on July 12, 2022 [2 favorites]
I would like to suggest that those interested in debating the potential outcome of the hearings take it to MetaTalk. I don't see that as a productive discussion in this thread.
Thank you. The future-predicting in here is getting really tiresome.
posted by sundrop at 12:26 PM on July 12, 2022 [3 favorites]
Thank you. The future-predicting in here is getting really tiresome.
posted by sundrop at 12:26 PM on July 12, 2022 [3 favorites]
The second live witness, Ayres, was not part of any of the existing groups—making an interesting contrast. He explains how he was radicalized on social media, but decided to go to the insurrection on his own. He believed the big lie, but claims he now "doesn't so much" believe it.
posted by bcd at 12:26 PM on July 12, 2022 [3 favorites]
posted by bcd at 12:26 PM on July 12, 2022 [3 favorites]
those of us pessimistic about this committee
It's just you. You've been heard. several times in just this thread.
Thank you to the people posting updates and information.
posted by Jarcat at 12:27 PM on July 12, 2022 [22 favorites]
It's just you. You've been heard. several times in just this thread.
Thank you to the people posting updates and information.
posted by Jarcat at 12:27 PM on July 12, 2022 [22 favorites]
MetaTalk is for discussing how we discuss things, not for siloing out topic-relevant stuff you don't care for.
Maybe your personal feelings on the topic is not as "topic-relevant" as you think? And besides we know what your opinion is, further explaining it is just demanding that we agree with your feelings.
posted by Horkus at 12:28 PM on July 12, 2022 [12 favorites]
Maybe your personal feelings on the topic is not as "topic-relevant" as you think? And besides we know what your opinion is, further explaining it is just demanding that we agree with your feelings.
posted by Horkus at 12:28 PM on July 12, 2022 [12 favorites]
Well, you’ve posted 12 of the 106 posts, DirtyOldTown. You say the outcome is preordained so I hope you’ve concluded your presentation.
Edit: my number of posts didn’t update on refresh. I changed the total.
posted by OnTheLastCastle at 12:29 PM on July 12, 2022 [4 favorites]
Edit: my number of posts didn’t update on refresh. I changed the total.
posted by OnTheLastCastle at 12:29 PM on July 12, 2022 [4 favorites]
I'm sorry. Thanks for being a supportive community, and I apologize that I've been acting out due to my anxiety and making it a less supportive place for others.
I'm going to get away from doom scrolling for a bit.
posted by Abehammerb Lincoln at 12:29 PM on July 12, 2022 [18 favorites]
I'm going to get away from doom scrolling for a bit.
posted by Abehammerb Lincoln at 12:29 PM on July 12, 2022 [18 favorites]
Anybody know who the dude is on the t-shirt of the woman sitting behind van Tatenhove (the oath keepers former spokesperson)?
I don't, but Van Tatenhove gets a Dee Snider Award for showing up to this thing in a Descendents t-shirt.
posted by box at 12:33 PM on July 12, 2022 [8 favorites]
I don't, but Van Tatenhove gets a Dee Snider Award for showing up to this thing in a Descendents t-shirt.
posted by box at 12:33 PM on July 12, 2022 [8 favorites]
you’ve posted 12 of the 106 posts, DirtyOldTown
That is a lot, yeah. But about 10 of those were replying to people directly or indirectly addressing me. So I feel like maybe your message isn't so much "Why won't you stop talking about this?" than it is "Why can't we talk about what you said without having to hear from you?" Which, okay, fine.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 12:33 PM on July 12, 2022 [2 favorites]
That is a lot, yeah. But about 10 of those were replying to people directly or indirectly addressing me. So I feel like maybe your message isn't so much "Why won't you stop talking about this?" than it is "Why can't we talk about what you said without having to hear from you?" Which, okay, fine.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 12:33 PM on July 12, 2022 [2 favorites]
Metafilter: Seditious feelings aside, how was the tour, Mr. January.
posted by clavdivs at 12:34 PM on July 12, 2022 [5 favorites]
posted by clavdivs at 12:34 PM on July 12, 2022 [5 favorites]
Van Tatenhove describes how one of his first tasks for the Oath Keepers was supposed to be creating a deck of cards that were the hit list of politicians, judges and Hillary Clinton by name, as targets, just like they used in Iraq.
posted by bcd at 12:34 PM on July 12, 2022 [15 favorites]
posted by bcd at 12:34 PM on July 12, 2022 [15 favorites]
The testimony of the oath keepers spokesperson is extremely compelling. He just expressed fear about the upcoming election.
posted by bluesky43 at 12:34 PM on July 12, 2022 [11 favorites]
posted by bluesky43 at 12:34 PM on July 12, 2022 [11 favorites]
The outcome is pre-ordained.
It seems a certain amount of cynicism is pre-ordained, and possibly even justified, but the outcome is not.
posted by Gelatin at 12:35 PM on July 12, 2022 [12 favorites]
It seems a certain amount of cynicism is pre-ordained, and possibly even justified, but the outcome is not.
posted by Gelatin at 12:35 PM on July 12, 2022 [12 favorites]
It is striking -- and scary -- to see and hear clips of testimony of witnesses with still pictures and their voices, with no pictures and their voices all the way to no names, no pictures and their voices scrambled. Some people are terrified at the possibility of personal repercussions of their testimony being broadcast. The committee is bending over backwards to accommodate them.
posted by y2karl at 12:35 PM on July 12, 2022 [11 favorites]
posted by y2karl at 12:35 PM on July 12, 2022 [11 favorites]
This is completely petty but I am eager to know what the forehead tattoo on Van Tatenhove is/says.
More seriously, I found his testimony fairly powerful. That is just a personal response, not any kind of prediction about anything.
posted by Bella Donna at 12:36 PM on July 12, 2022 [3 favorites]
More seriously, I found his testimony fairly powerful. That is just a personal response, not any kind of prediction about anything.
posted by Bella Donna at 12:36 PM on July 12, 2022 [3 favorites]
It is a smart balance showing that the organized groups came with their own plans and agenda, whereas the useful idiots like Ayers were directly incited to violence by Trumps instructions.
posted by bcd at 12:39 PM on July 12, 2022 [8 favorites]
posted by bcd at 12:39 PM on July 12, 2022 [8 favorites]
> you’ve posted 12 of the 106 posts, DirtyOldTown
That is a lot, yeah. But about 10 of those were replying to people directly or indirectly addressing me.
I was this person a few times - and honestly didn't notice it was just you until someone else pointed it out just now. But I'll own my yammering.
So - let's both drop it.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 12:40 PM on July 12, 2022 [3 favorites]
That is a lot, yeah. But about 10 of those were replying to people directly or indirectly addressing me.
I was this person a few times - and honestly didn't notice it was just you until someone else pointed it out just now. But I'll own my yammering.
So - let's both drop it.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 12:40 PM on July 12, 2022 [3 favorites]
Mod note: Several comments deleted. Please avoid turning this thread into a one-on-one discussion and allow the conversation to continues. Also, remember that doomsdaying is not Okay, particularly in subjects that affect the whole world like this one.
posted by loup (staff) at 12:40 PM on July 12, 2022 [17 favorites]
posted by loup (staff) at 12:40 PM on July 12, 2022 [17 favorites]
I don't believe him. (last witness)
Hmm. I'm curious - why not?
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 12:41 PM on July 12, 2022
Hmm. I'm curious - why not?
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 12:41 PM on July 12, 2022
Sgt. Gonell. Hero.
that's why the hearings are held.
posted by clavdivs at 12:44 PM on July 12, 2022 [5 favorites]
that's why the hearings are held.
posted by clavdivs at 12:44 PM on July 12, 2022 [5 favorites]
I don't believe him. (last witness)
My gut feeling? He believes what he is saying now - because it's easier to blame Trump than himself for being eager to believe those obvious lies. It is a very common pattern across many areas.
posted by bcd at 12:45 PM on July 12, 2022
My gut feeling? He believes what he is saying now - because it's easier to blame Trump than himself for being eager to believe those obvious lies. It is a very common pattern across many areas.
posted by bcd at 12:45 PM on July 12, 2022
Raskin: "The Watergate break-in was a Cub Scout meeting compared to this assault on our democracy."
posted by box at 12:45 PM on July 12, 2022 [13 favorites]
posted by box at 12:45 PM on July 12, 2022 [13 favorites]
Raskin promises "our hearing next week will be a profound moment of reckoning for America." That's a big assertion.
posted by bcd at 12:47 PM on July 12, 2022 [11 favorites]
posted by bcd at 12:47 PM on July 12, 2022 [11 favorites]
Brilliant closing statement by Jamie Raskin.
posted by bluesky43 at 12:47 PM on July 12, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by bluesky43 at 12:47 PM on July 12, 2022 [2 favorites]
Raskin nailed it. Yeah, I think he has hindsight regret.
posted by clavdivs at 12:50 PM on July 12, 2022 [3 favorites]
posted by clavdivs at 12:50 PM on July 12, 2022 [3 favorites]
Representative Stephanie Murphy is new to me. Her closing statement was great.
posted by Bella Donna at 12:51 PM on July 12, 2022 [3 favorites]
posted by Bella Donna at 12:51 PM on July 12, 2022 [3 favorites]
The triumvirate here of Raskin, Murphy and Cheney is remarkable.
posted by bluesky43 at 12:53 PM on July 12, 2022 [4 favorites]
posted by bluesky43 at 12:53 PM on July 12, 2022 [4 favorites]
Cheney just one-more-thing'ed an attempt at witness intimidation after the Cassidy Hutchinson session.
posted by box at 12:53 PM on July 12, 2022 [22 favorites]
posted by box at 12:53 PM on July 12, 2022 [22 favorites]
Did most of you know about the January 5th Republican meeting with Representative Debbie Lesko talking about security concerns? That was raised earlier in the hearing and was total news to me. First she mentioned "Antifa" then immediately mentioned Trump supporters by name. That was chilling to me.
posted by Bella Donna at 12:54 PM on July 12, 2022 [7 favorites]
posted by Bella Donna at 12:54 PM on July 12, 2022 [7 favorites]
Representative Stephanie Murphy is new to me. Her closing statement was great.
Same for me on both parts of that. By my count that leaves Elaine Luria (D-VA) as the only member who hasn't been in the hot seat yet. I don't know her either and am curious to see if she'll be involved next week.
posted by bcd at 12:55 PM on July 12, 2022 [2 favorites]
Same for me on both parts of that. By my count that leaves Elaine Luria (D-VA) as the only member who hasn't been in the hot seat yet. I don't know her either and am curious to see if she'll be involved next week.
posted by bcd at 12:55 PM on July 12, 2022 [2 favorites]
Both Cheney and Thompson had very powerful closing statements once again.
Past time to get back to work for me. See you all next week.
posted by bcd at 12:58 PM on July 12, 2022 [5 favorites]
Past time to get back to work for me. See you all next week.
posted by bcd at 12:58 PM on July 12, 2022 [5 favorites]
When I heard that Bannon was now cooperating, my fear of him using a public forum for his bullshit rose. But this morning on NPR, I heard Murphy explicitly say that they were not going to let him do that. I had never heard of her, but my fears were quelled. More power to her.
posted by njohnson23 at 1:00 PM on July 12, 2022 [11 favorites]
posted by njohnson23 at 1:00 PM on July 12, 2022 [11 favorites]
Trump calling a witness? Did Cheney just spill tea on Trump's witness tampering?
posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock at 1:00 PM on July 12, 2022 [6 favorites]
posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock at 1:00 PM on July 12, 2022 [6 favorites]
then immediately mentioned Trump supporters
Yup. it's telling as it distinguishes between what Trump thought of the difference between the brick and sandstone apparatus.
posted by clavdivs at 1:00 PM on July 12, 2022
Yup. it's telling as it distinguishes between what Trump thought of the difference between the brick and sandstone apparatus.
posted by clavdivs at 1:00 PM on July 12, 2022
I’ve never thought that the purpose of these public hearings has been to result in legal consequences for Trump. They wouldn’t have to be public for that.
I think, as part of a path to legal consequences, these hearings had to be public. If they weren't - if Trump were just arrested sometime between Jan 6th and the public start of these hearings - the MAGA-swamp end of the voting public would have gone NUTS about 'due process' and 'kangaroo courts' and far-right politicos like Boebert and Gaetz would have had ample ammunition to stir them up more. The Dems may be playing the game in a way that you don't like and that feels torturously slow, but I think they're trying their best to not give their opponents any opportunity to call this a nothing-burger.
posted by hanov3r at 1:05 PM on July 12, 2022 [32 favorites]
I think, as part of a path to legal consequences, these hearings had to be public. If they weren't - if Trump were just arrested sometime between Jan 6th and the public start of these hearings - the MAGA-swamp end of the voting public would have gone NUTS about 'due process' and 'kangaroo courts' and far-right politicos like Boebert and Gaetz would have had ample ammunition to stir them up more. The Dems may be playing the game in a way that you don't like and that feels torturously slow, but I think they're trying their best to not give their opponents any opportunity to call this a nothing-burger.
posted by hanov3r at 1:05 PM on July 12, 2022 [32 favorites]
I love how Cheney always ends with a chilling preview of “next week on The Jan 06 Hearing”. Stay tuned.
posted by TWinbrook8 at 1:12 PM on July 12, 2022 [19 favorites]
posted by TWinbrook8 at 1:12 PM on July 12, 2022 [19 favorites]
Well, more accurately, make it painfully obvious that when the seditionists try to call it a nothing burger, they're obviously, hilariously wrong.
The hearings are making what happened on January 6 so obvious that even NPR can both-sides it.
(As, in fairness, it was on the day itself.)
posted by Gelatin at 1:12 PM on July 12, 2022 [2 favorites]
The hearings are making what happened on January 6 so obvious that even NPR can both-sides it.
(As, in fairness, it was on the day itself.)
posted by Gelatin at 1:12 PM on July 12, 2022 [2 favorites]
legal consequences for Trump
That would be the most delectable hat I'd ever have to eat.
posted by snuffleupagus at 1:12 PM on July 12, 2022 [11 favorites]
That would be the most delectable hat I'd ever have to eat.
posted by snuffleupagus at 1:12 PM on July 12, 2022 [11 favorites]
One of the results of the congressional hearings could be legislation that makes it harder to get away with an insurrection.
posted by sammyo at 1:15 PM on July 12, 2022 [4 favorites]
posted by sammyo at 1:15 PM on July 12, 2022 [4 favorites]
I'm continually awed by Liz Cheney's formidable abilities. It is such a shame that she chose to throw in her lot with the wrong side.
posted by orange swan at 1:18 PM on July 12, 2022 [11 favorites]
posted by orange swan at 1:18 PM on July 12, 2022 [11 favorites]
It is such a shame that she chose to throw in her lot with the wrong side.
I think for the purposes of these hearings, the "two sides" are defined a bit differently.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 1:21 PM on July 12, 2022 [4 favorites]
I think for the purposes of these hearings, the "two sides" are defined a bit differently.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 1:21 PM on July 12, 2022 [4 favorites]
Yes, I realize that Liz Cheney's trying to save the Republican party from Trump during these hearings, not actually crossing the aisle. But it does give me a pang to think what a force for good she could have been.
posted by orange swan at 1:26 PM on July 12, 2022 [19 favorites]
posted by orange swan at 1:26 PM on July 12, 2022 [19 favorites]
it's human nature to focus on personalities.. Cheney's performance, Trump the detestable villain.. I truly hope the institutions and processes of the US Republic rise to the challenge
names and faces, these people are fulfilling roles and offices.. we need these roles to function, we need our elected offices to serve in the manner intended. keeping hopes for you, neighbours to the south
posted by elkevelvet at 1:31 PM on July 12, 2022 [6 favorites]
names and faces, these people are fulfilling roles and offices.. we need these roles to function, we need our elected offices to serve in the manner intended. keeping hopes for you, neighbours to the south
posted by elkevelvet at 1:31 PM on July 12, 2022 [6 favorites]
I had never heard of Representative Bennie Thompson before the hearings, either. I appreciate the job he's doing as the Committee Chair. He's not grandstanding, he seems direct and no-nonsense, I like his approach. His low-drama style pairs nicely with Cheney's more dramatic approach. As noted above, whichever person or team is responsible for producing/overseeing the hearings in terms of structure, tone, and pacing seems to be doing an effective job.
posted by Bella Donna at 1:33 PM on July 12, 2022 [19 favorites]
posted by Bella Donna at 1:33 PM on July 12, 2022 [19 favorites]
they are changing public opinion
Not by much.
If I went by co-workers and friends I would think my household are the only people paying any attention and it's not changing our minds; we already thought Trump should be in jail. But maybe the Republicans I know just don't want to talk about it, no idea. I do wonder how much good might come of somebody with deep pockets astroturfing social media with clips from the hearings, maybe targeting Republicans specifically, maybe pierce their news bubble a bit. I don't know, how much would something like that cost? The Daily Wire only spent $35K on the Amber Heard smear campaign. It seems like this is eminently doable for people who have means but the Democrats always seem to think they are above that sort of politicking.
posted by joannemerriam at 1:37 PM on July 12, 2022 [18 favorites]
Not by much.
If I went by co-workers and friends I would think my household are the only people paying any attention and it's not changing our minds; we already thought Trump should be in jail. But maybe the Republicans I know just don't want to talk about it, no idea. I do wonder how much good might come of somebody with deep pockets astroturfing social media with clips from the hearings, maybe targeting Republicans specifically, maybe pierce their news bubble a bit. I don't know, how much would something like that cost? The Daily Wire only spent $35K on the Amber Heard smear campaign. It seems like this is eminently doable for people who have means but the Democrats always seem to think they are above that sort of politicking.
posted by joannemerriam at 1:37 PM on July 12, 2022 [18 favorites]
Yes, I realize that Liz Cheney's trying to save the Republican party from Trump during these hearings, not actually crossing the aisle.
I was thinking more like, the two sides are "Americans who believe in the electoral process and the peaceful transfer of power" and "an unhinged narcissistic despot and his minions".
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 1:39 PM on July 12, 2022 [9 favorites]
I was thinking more like, the two sides are "Americans who believe in the electoral process and the peaceful transfer of power" and "an unhinged narcissistic despot and his minions".
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 1:39 PM on July 12, 2022 [9 favorites]
If I went by co-workers and friends I would think my household are the only people paying any attention and it's not changing our minds; we already thought Trump should be in jail.
Republicans I know are definitely not watching, nor having their minds changed. Maybe they are outliers, I don't really know. But my extended circles include people with a pretty broad range of political affiliations and beliefs, and there's a very clear correlation between people who already thought Trump was a criminal and people who are talking about these hearings.
posted by primethyme at 1:40 PM on July 12, 2022 [5 favorites]
Republicans I know are definitely not watching, nor having their minds changed. Maybe they are outliers, I don't really know. But my extended circles include people with a pretty broad range of political affiliations and beliefs, and there's a very clear correlation between people who already thought Trump was a criminal and people who are talking about these hearings.
posted by primethyme at 1:40 PM on July 12, 2022 [5 favorites]
I mean, let's be honest here. Liz Cheney and Cassidy Hutchinson and Pat Cipollone are not good people. They are not anyone I would ever want to be in the same restaurant with, let alone the same table. They are and have been parts of the hard-right machine that's driven America into the ground for decades, merely approaching this from the perspective of saving the institution so that their side can resume control of it in time.
This is Doctor Doom condemning the behavior of the Red Skull, or blasting away at a huge alien invasion force trying to turn all humans into soup because he, too, feels threatened. This is Lawful Evil standing firm against Chaotic Evil for control of Team Evil. In this place and time, they are allies, but only as long as this danger persists to the degree that it does.
posted by delfin at 1:40 PM on July 12, 2022 [82 favorites]
This is Doctor Doom condemning the behavior of the Red Skull, or blasting away at a huge alien invasion force trying to turn all humans into soup because he, too, feels threatened. This is Lawful Evil standing firm against Chaotic Evil for control of Team Evil. In this place and time, they are allies, but only as long as this danger persists to the degree that it does.
posted by delfin at 1:40 PM on July 12, 2022 [82 favorites]
Cheney got raised to be Republican. It would have taken a hell of a lot for her not to be, especially given daddy's legacy.
posted by jenfullmoon at 1:45 PM on July 12, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by jenfullmoon at 1:45 PM on July 12, 2022 [1 favorite]
I think the court of opinion they are changing is an important one: the reasonable people who don't get their info from Fox. It's jut not in reaching all the folks suffering from foxitus, and seriously, fuck having to cater to those ignorant assholes.
posted by zenon at 1:47 PM on July 12, 2022 [7 favorites]
posted by zenon at 1:47 PM on July 12, 2022 [7 favorites]
Cheney got raised to be Republican. It would have taken a hell of a lot for her not to be, especially given daddy's legacy.
Okay, but she's still a professional danger to human wellbeing.
posted by Pope Guilty at 1:48 PM on July 12, 2022 [7 favorites]
Okay, but she's still a professional danger to human wellbeing.
posted by Pope Guilty at 1:48 PM on July 12, 2022 [7 favorites]
Agreed. Just pondering the whole "wish she was on our side" thing there.
posted by jenfullmoon at 1:52 PM on July 12, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by jenfullmoon at 1:52 PM on July 12, 2022 [2 favorites]
The fact that this is happening now via committee rather than on January 7th, 2021 via Secret Service forcibly putting people in cuffs means they've already done it wrong, IMO.
You mean, you'd prefer the way fascists do things?
I've been at a lot of (entirely peaceful) protests and seen cops hurt a lot of people, and the part where people get hurt is not acceptable. However, I've also seen mass arrests for protests where the worst thing that happened was a literal high school student with bad aim tossing rocks in the general direction of riot shields.
The difference between how anyone on the left, especially BIPOC and obviously queer folks, get treated for holding signs and the ways that republicans / conservatives / literal fascists get treated is night and day different. Mass arrests would have been appropriate here. That an armed mob intending to murder multiple members of our Congress held a riot where they invaded Congress and murdered a cop and then just... went home... says everything.
There should have been mass arrests on January 6. There should have been a lot of things, and that there weren't - a lot more than Trump needs investigating. I don't think it's "fascist" to expect arrests.
posted by bile and syntax at 1:52 PM on July 12, 2022 [74 favorites]
You mean, you'd prefer the way fascists do things?
I've been at a lot of (entirely peaceful) protests and seen cops hurt a lot of people, and the part where people get hurt is not acceptable. However, I've also seen mass arrests for protests where the worst thing that happened was a literal high school student with bad aim tossing rocks in the general direction of riot shields.
The difference between how anyone on the left, especially BIPOC and obviously queer folks, get treated for holding signs and the ways that republicans / conservatives / literal fascists get treated is night and day different. Mass arrests would have been appropriate here. That an armed mob intending to murder multiple members of our Congress held a riot where they invaded Congress and murdered a cop and then just... went home... says everything.
There should have been mass arrests on January 6. There should have been a lot of things, and that there weren't - a lot more than Trump needs investigating. I don't think it's "fascist" to expect arrests.
posted by bile and syntax at 1:52 PM on July 12, 2022 [74 favorites]
This discussion of whether Cheney et al deserve praise for their participation and conduct reminds me of the scene in Quiz Show where Charles Van Doren offers an purple-prose apology to the committee, get showered with praise and thanks, then TOTALLY UPBRAIDED by one of them as undeserving for "finally standing up and doing the right thing."
In any case, I know about two or three people who are following this hearing, with many others saying they're avoiding it because they're "sick of politics" and "it's all just a show" and so on. I think a lot of people are in that camp, regardless of the ratings say.
For my part, I'm glad they're public and thorough and *professional*. And I agree that the most likely good outcome might be a blueprint for preventing "January 6 2.0".
posted by Caxton1476 at 1:55 PM on July 12, 2022 [3 favorites]
In any case, I know about two or three people who are following this hearing, with many others saying they're avoiding it because they're "sick of politics" and "it's all just a show" and so on. I think a lot of people are in that camp, regardless of the ratings say.
For my part, I'm glad they're public and thorough and *professional*. And I agree that the most likely good outcome might be a blueprint for preventing "January 6 2.0".
posted by Caxton1476 at 1:55 PM on July 12, 2022 [3 favorites]
Did Cheney just spill tea on Trump's witness tampering?
Bet you a donut there's a voicemail and we're going to hear it next week in the series finale.
Let's Al Capone this thing and just charge Trump with witness tampering. That's a felony, right?
posted by JoeZydeco at 2:01 PM on July 12, 2022 [12 favorites]
Bet you a donut there's a voicemail and we're going to hear it next week in the series finale.
Let's Al Capone this thing and just charge Trump with witness tampering. That's a felony, right?
posted by JoeZydeco at 2:01 PM on July 12, 2022 [12 favorites]
I'm pretty cynical about the outcome of this committee but I do agree it's valuable that it's all being documented publicly.
People of metafilter, be kind to one another. We're all nominally on the same side here. Times are difficult and weird for everyone. My power just got shut off and I'm sitting here in the dark.
You have to have hope. You have to fight any way you can. The opposite is dispair.
posted by SystematicAbuse at 2:07 PM on July 12, 2022 [28 favorites]
People of metafilter, be kind to one another. We're all nominally on the same side here. Times are difficult and weird for everyone. My power just got shut off and I'm sitting here in the dark.
You have to have hope. You have to fight any way you can. The opposite is dispair.
posted by SystematicAbuse at 2:07 PM on July 12, 2022 [28 favorites]
The difference between how anyone on the left, especially BIPOC and obviously queer folks, get treated for holding signs and the ways that republicans / conservatives / literal fascists get treated is night and day different. Mass arrests would have been appropriate here. That an armed mob intending to murder multiple members of our Congress held a riot where they invaded Congress and murdered a cop and then just... went home... says everything.
My ultimate point when I snarked about the lack of arrests on January 7th was that nobody should be getting arrested without cause. I agree with you that it's ridiculous the way people on the left are attacked and wrongly arrested. I disagree with the idea that "doing to them what they do to us" is the way to fix that, is all. (And - for the record, I do think that there were some initial arrests made on January 6th, were there not? Like, I remember the guy who stole a lectern getting turned in pretty quick, and the buffalo-skin "shaman" guy.)
This discussion of whether Cheney et al deserve praise for their participation and conduct reminds me of the scene in Quiz Show where Charles Van Doren offers an purple-prose apology to the committee, get showered with praise and thanks, then TOTALLY UPBRAIDED by one of them as undeserving for "finally standing up and doing the right thing."
Cippoline's praise of Mike Pence is what reminded me of that, more so.
One small perk for me is this article about how Trump is apparently hatewatching the hearings, and whining about "when are they gonna stop". For that reason alone I kinda hope they go on for months.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 2:07 PM on July 12, 2022 [19 favorites]
My ultimate point when I snarked about the lack of arrests on January 7th was that nobody should be getting arrested without cause. I agree with you that it's ridiculous the way people on the left are attacked and wrongly arrested. I disagree with the idea that "doing to them what they do to us" is the way to fix that, is all. (And - for the record, I do think that there were some initial arrests made on January 6th, were there not? Like, I remember the guy who stole a lectern getting turned in pretty quick, and the buffalo-skin "shaman" guy.)
This discussion of whether Cheney et al deserve praise for their participation and conduct reminds me of the scene in Quiz Show where Charles Van Doren offers an purple-prose apology to the committee, get showered with praise and thanks, then TOTALLY UPBRAIDED by one of them as undeserving for "finally standing up and doing the right thing."
Cippoline's praise of Mike Pence is what reminded me of that, more so.
One small perk for me is this article about how Trump is apparently hatewatching the hearings, and whining about "when are they gonna stop". For that reason alone I kinda hope they go on for months.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 2:07 PM on July 12, 2022 [19 favorites]
The Al Capone analogy may prove useful. Few seem interested in charging Trump with (capital) sedition/treason. If witness tampering is what it takes to get he and his crime famiglia in prison, so be it.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 2:09 PM on July 12, 2022 [15 favorites]
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 2:09 PM on July 12, 2022 [15 favorites]
One small perk for me is this article about how Trump is apparently hatewatching the hearings, and whining about "when are they gonna stop".
Paraphrasing the immortal words of Paul "Rooster" Sedaris, I'm guessing they'll stop when they're fucking finished. Which given the wide variety of material out there, may take a while!
posted by jenfullmoon at 2:11 PM on July 12, 2022 [10 favorites]
Paraphrasing the immortal words of Paul "Rooster" Sedaris, I'm guessing they'll stop when they're fucking finished. Which given the wide variety of material out there, may take a while!
posted by jenfullmoon at 2:11 PM on July 12, 2022 [10 favorites]
The live feed I was watching cut out before this, but I thought it was an interesting comment on, well, these times. Ayres was a very compelling witness as well.
From the NYT live comment feed
The hearing has concluded, and in a remarkable scene here, Ayres, the Jan. 6 rioter, is shaking hands with the Capitol Police officers whose lines he breached while storming the building that day.
posted by bluesky43 at 2:18 PM on July 12, 2022 [2 favorites]
From the NYT live comment feed
The hearing has concluded, and in a remarkable scene here, Ayres, the Jan. 6 rioter, is shaking hands with the Capitol Police officers whose lines he breached while storming the building that day.
posted by bluesky43 at 2:18 PM on July 12, 2022 [2 favorites]
Tapper: I don’t know if I agree with you with all due respect. One doesn’t have to be brilliant to attempt a coup
Bolton: I disagree with that as somebody who has helped plan coups, not here but other places…
posted by curious nu at 2:18 PM on July 12, 2022 [17 favorites]
Bolton: I disagree with that as somebody who has helped plan coups, not here but other places…
posted by curious nu at 2:18 PM on July 12, 2022 [17 favorites]
geesh. the quiet part out loud (and Jake Tapper ewwwww).
posted by bluesky43 at 2:19 PM on July 12, 2022
posted by bluesky43 at 2:19 PM on July 12, 2022
My ultimate point when I snarked about the lack of arrests on January 7th was that nobody should be getting arrested without cause.
You think a riot that killed people isn't adequate cause for mass arrests? I wish I lived under the police system that you're describing. Again: not calling for the cops to hurt them, but mass arrests were warranted. This was a situation where a nation-wide conspiracy came together to kill members of Congress, and that did cause multiple deaths.
posted by bile and syntax at 2:19 PM on July 12, 2022 [20 favorites]
You think a riot that killed people isn't adequate cause for mass arrests? I wish I lived under the police system that you're describing. Again: not calling for the cops to hurt them, but mass arrests were warranted. This was a situation where a nation-wide conspiracy came together to kill members of Congress, and that did cause multiple deaths.
posted by bile and syntax at 2:19 PM on July 12, 2022 [20 favorites]
I’ve never thought that the purpose of these public hearings has been to result in legal consequences for Trump. They wouldn’t have to be public for that.
I don't see how people would think this about the US government. We have a government by television, for television.
the best thing about these hearings is that they are being run like a television program and not a legal hearing; unlike the failed impeachments and the muller report, which pretended that our country is rationally, rather than aesthetically run.
It also does not surprise me that the DOJ is far behind this committee, since the DOJ is run by yet another sleepy establishment republican, Muller all over again.
You may indeed be a rational person, but I present to you, the last 30 years of US national politics. it's a game of warring aesthetics, mostly waged via television or online video production.
posted by eustatic at 2:30 PM on July 12, 2022 [14 favorites]
I don't see how people would think this about the US government. We have a government by television, for television.
the best thing about these hearings is that they are being run like a television program and not a legal hearing; unlike the failed impeachments and the muller report, which pretended that our country is rationally, rather than aesthetically run.
It also does not surprise me that the DOJ is far behind this committee, since the DOJ is run by yet another sleepy establishment republican, Muller all over again.
You may indeed be a rational person, but I present to you, the last 30 years of US national politics. it's a game of warring aesthetics, mostly waged via television or online video production.
posted by eustatic at 2:30 PM on July 12, 2022 [14 favorites]
The hearing has concluded, and in a remarkable scene here, Ayres, the Jan. 6 rioter, is shaking hands with the Capitol Police officers whose lines he breached while storming the building that day.
Fair few police shook hands with Jan 6th rioters before the storming, I’d bet.
posted by Artw at 2:33 PM on July 12, 2022 [3 favorites]
Fair few police shook hands with Jan 6th rioters before the storming, I’d bet.
posted by Artw at 2:33 PM on July 12, 2022 [3 favorites]
Marc E. Elias
@marceelias
Please don't forget that not a single Trump official spoke out at the time to say that Trump should concede. It's good that they are now, months later, admitting under oath that Trump was unhinged. But their public silence at the time was an enabling form of complicity.
2:43 PM · Jul 12, 2022
posted by bluesky43 at 2:35 PM on July 12, 2022 [45 favorites]
@marceelias
Please don't forget that not a single Trump official spoke out at the time to say that Trump should concede. It's good that they are now, months later, admitting under oath that Trump was unhinged. But their public silence at the time was an enabling form of complicity.
2:43 PM · Jul 12, 2022
posted by bluesky43 at 2:35 PM on July 12, 2022 [45 favorites]
If you saw the Kraken lady's testimony, you'll get this.
Bradley Whitford
@BradleyWhitford
Worst Dr. Pepper ad ever.
1:46 PM · Jul 12, 2022
posted by bluesky43 at 2:39 PM on July 12, 2022 [12 favorites]
Bradley Whitford
@BradleyWhitford
Worst Dr. Pepper ad ever.
1:46 PM · Jul 12, 2022
posted by bluesky43 at 2:39 PM on July 12, 2022 [12 favorites]
The oral history of the Dec 18 meeting was fascinating.
posted by mazola at 2:40 PM on July 12, 2022 [5 favorites]
posted by mazola at 2:40 PM on July 12, 2022 [5 favorites]
Tapper: I don’t know if I agree with you with all due respect. One doesn’t have to be brilliant to attempt a coup
Bolton: I disagree with that as somebody who has helped plan coups, not here but other places…
American exceptionalism!
posted by Ahmad Khani at 3:15 PM on July 12, 2022 [6 favorites]
Bolton: I disagree with that as somebody who has helped plan coups, not here but other places…
American exceptionalism!
posted by Ahmad Khani at 3:15 PM on July 12, 2022 [6 favorites]
The whole Secret Service thing is a weird derail. They are responsible for the Presidential security in the moment, and they have investigative powers and responsibilities in the area of financial crimes, cybercrime etc as established when they were a Treasury agency (despite now being in DHS). They have a counterterrorism function as a part of the Joint Terrorism Task Force. However, they are not the FBI or the US Marshals or otherwise part of the DOJ.
posted by snuffleupagus at 3:22 PM on July 12, 2022 [4 favorites]
posted by snuffleupagus at 3:22 PM on July 12, 2022 [4 favorites]
You think a riot that killed people isn't adequate cause for mass arrests?
Arrests? Yes. Mass arrests? No. You gotta be able to tie a specific charge to a specific guy first, and just being in the vicinity of shit going down isn't enough. Also, thus far 876 people (and counting) have been arrested for the Jan. 6 riots, which isn't exactly nothing....
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 3:30 PM on July 12, 2022 [15 favorites]
Arrests? Yes. Mass arrests? No. You gotta be able to tie a specific charge to a specific guy first, and just being in the vicinity of shit going down isn't enough. Also, thus far 876 people (and counting) have been arrested for the Jan. 6 riots, which isn't exactly nothing....
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 3:30 PM on July 12, 2022 [15 favorites]
Arrests? Yes. Mass arrests? No. You gotta be able to tie a specific charge to a specific guy first, and just being in the vicinity of shit going down isn't enough.
Every person surrounding the Capitol on January 6th could and should have been arrested under DC code 22-1322 rioting or inciting to riot. People arrested who were merely in the vicinity could argue that in their defense at trial or in negotiations with prosecutors. The problem wasn't that there was no basis for mass arrests on January 6th. The problem was that there wasn't sufficient police presence to carry out mass arrests on January 6th.
posted by Jonathan Livengood at 3:58 PM on July 12, 2022 [34 favorites]
Every person surrounding the Capitol on January 6th could and should have been arrested under DC code 22-1322 rioting or inciting to riot. People arrested who were merely in the vicinity could argue that in their defense at trial or in negotiations with prosecutors. The problem wasn't that there was no basis for mass arrests on January 6th. The problem was that there wasn't sufficient police presence to carry out mass arrests on January 6th.
posted by Jonathan Livengood at 3:58 PM on July 12, 2022 [34 favorites]
I had to clean the dust off my eyeballs after they rolled right onto the floor when Cipollone said he thought Pence should get the Congressional Medal of Freedom for doing the bare minimum of his job and not engaging in sedition with the rest of them on the 6th.
It is not so much the Age of Extremely Lowered Expectations as it is the Age of Incredibly Monstrous Presidential Misdeeds.
I am old enough to remember the Cuban Missile Crisis, the assassinations of John F. Kennedy, Martin Luther King, Robert Kennedy, Nixon's resignation, to name but a few -- all days I knew I would remember forever upon the very day that they happened*. January 6th was another.
* Well, among those of us who share such memories, the old saw is...
Everyone can remember where they were and what they ate for lunch the day Kennedy got killed but nobody knew where they were upon waking up the morning after Nixon resigned but instantly oh-my-head! realized they had far too much to drink the night before.
For example here in Seattle, the Comet Tavern for years had a cardboard cutout of a medieval trumpeteer from 1973 with a banner hanging from his trumpet that read they would have free beer the day that Nixon resigned. It was a much tinier bar in those days -- yet they ran through 5 kegs that night. So, I know where I was on the day it happened... How I ended up waking up on a dew soaked lawn in Leschi the next morning I knew not.
posted by y2karl at 4:07 PM on July 12, 2022 [27 favorites]
It is not so much the Age of Extremely Lowered Expectations as it is the Age of Incredibly Monstrous Presidential Misdeeds.
I am old enough to remember the Cuban Missile Crisis, the assassinations of John F. Kennedy, Martin Luther King, Robert Kennedy, Nixon's resignation, to name but a few -- all days I knew I would remember forever upon the very day that they happened*. January 6th was another.
* Well, among those of us who share such memories, the old saw is...
Everyone can remember where they were and what they ate for lunch the day Kennedy got killed but nobody knew where they were upon waking up the morning after Nixon resigned but instantly oh-my-head! realized they had far too much to drink the night before.
For example here in Seattle, the Comet Tavern for years had a cardboard cutout of a medieval trumpeteer from 1973 with a banner hanging from his trumpet that read they would have free beer the day that Nixon resigned. It was a much tinier bar in those days -- yet they ran through 5 kegs that night. So, I know where I was on the day it happened... How I ended up waking up on a dew soaked lawn in Leschi the next morning I knew not.
posted by y2karl at 4:07 PM on July 12, 2022 [27 favorites]
I'm rather tired of hearing the word Militia when referring to Three Percenters and Proud Boys and other groups.
They're armed people who wish to use violence to a political end. Call them what they are: Terrorist cells.
posted by dobbs at 4:12 PM on July 12, 2022 [69 favorites]
They're armed people who wish to use violence to a political end. Call them what they are: Terrorist cells.
posted by dobbs at 4:12 PM on July 12, 2022 [69 favorites]
You may indeed be a rational person, but I present to you, the last 30 years of US national politics. it's a game of warring aesthetics, mostly waged via television or online video production.
Yep. The Republicans spent over two years "investigating" the Benghazi attack via the House select committee. The final report found no wrongdoing by Hillary Clinton, but it led to the whole email controversy that seriously damaged her campaign (PLEASE may we not relitigate the 2016 election and precisely why HRC lost the election) and kept the issue in the news until the committee conveniently wrapped up in the summer of 2016. It would be nice to think that DOJ will discover a spine and rain down indictments but I would settle for two years of January 6 hearings if the Democrats will use it as a political cudgel against the Republicans every time they get in front of a microphone (I mean, I don't think they will, but...).
posted by Preserver at 4:18 PM on July 12, 2022 [10 favorites]
Yep. The Republicans spent over two years "investigating" the Benghazi attack via the House select committee. The final report found no wrongdoing by Hillary Clinton, but it led to the whole email controversy that seriously damaged her campaign (PLEASE may we not relitigate the 2016 election and precisely why HRC lost the election) and kept the issue in the news until the committee conveniently wrapped up in the summer of 2016. It would be nice to think that DOJ will discover a spine and rain down indictments but I would settle for two years of January 6 hearings if the Democrats will use it as a political cudgel against the Republicans every time they get in front of a microphone (I mean, I don't think they will, but...).
posted by Preserver at 4:18 PM on July 12, 2022 [10 favorites]
Also, thus far 876 people (and counting) have been arrested for the Jan. 6 riots, which isn't exactly nothing....
Thank you. I'm baffled by people who keep saying, "Why hasn't anyone been charged or arrested?"
Hundreds of people have been charged, and many have been arrested.
The DOJ isn't "doing nothing" or being "spineless". It's neck-deep in the largest criminal investigation in U.S. history.
I guess a lot of people still really don't understand how criminal investigations and prosecutions work? Evidence has to be collected, and then charges have to be filed -- charges that the prosecution knows it can make a strong case for in court.
This is not something you can do overnight, or in a few weeks or a few months -- at least, not if you want to do it correctly. It requires detailed research into the evidence and the law, by skilled investigators and skilled litigators.
Rushing something like this means you're more likely to bring a flawed case -- which the defendants' legal teams can then get thrown out. Going after Trump and his crew in a half-assed way, allowing them to beat the charges, could end up being worse than not going after them at all. Like Omar Little said: You come at the king, you best not miss.
Do you want it done fast, or do you want it done right?
Also worth keeping in mind: Merrick Garland prosecuted the Oklahoma City bombings. His operation was pretty much leakproof. And his conviction rate was 100%.
I am not claiming to know for certain that this investigation will end the same way. But the doom and gloom is not just annoying -- it's ignorant and uniformed.
posted by Artifice_Eternity at 4:29 PM on July 12, 2022 [56 favorites]
Thank you. I'm baffled by people who keep saying, "Why hasn't anyone been charged or arrested?"
Hundreds of people have been charged, and many have been arrested.
The DOJ isn't "doing nothing" or being "spineless". It's neck-deep in the largest criminal investigation in U.S. history.
I guess a lot of people still really don't understand how criminal investigations and prosecutions work? Evidence has to be collected, and then charges have to be filed -- charges that the prosecution knows it can make a strong case for in court.
This is not something you can do overnight, or in a few weeks or a few months -- at least, not if you want to do it correctly. It requires detailed research into the evidence and the law, by skilled investigators and skilled litigators.
Rushing something like this means you're more likely to bring a flawed case -- which the defendants' legal teams can then get thrown out. Going after Trump and his crew in a half-assed way, allowing them to beat the charges, could end up being worse than not going after them at all. Like Omar Little said: You come at the king, you best not miss.
Do you want it done fast, or do you want it done right?
Also worth keeping in mind: Merrick Garland prosecuted the Oklahoma City bombings. His operation was pretty much leakproof. And his conviction rate was 100%.
I am not claiming to know for certain that this investigation will end the same way. But the doom and gloom is not just annoying -- it's ignorant and uniformed.
posted by Artifice_Eternity at 4:29 PM on July 12, 2022 [56 favorites]
I would also suggest that if you are consuming a lot of media, social or otherwise, that is amplifying false, doom-laden narratives claiming that the DOJ isn't doing anything, you should really look into changing your media diet and pruning your feeds.
posted by Artifice_Eternity at 4:31 PM on July 12, 2022 [8 favorites]
posted by Artifice_Eternity at 4:31 PM on July 12, 2022 [8 favorites]
Professional idiot John Bolton implying that he’s brilliant while also basically confessing acts of war is fun.
posted by aspersioncast at 4:31 PM on July 12, 2022 [29 favorites]
posted by aspersioncast at 4:31 PM on July 12, 2022 [29 favorites]
We have already had three guilty pleas for seditious conspiracy:
Leader of North Carolina Chapter of Oath Keepers Pleads Guilty to Seditious Conspiracy and Obstruction of Congress for Efforts to Stop Transfer of Power Following 2020 Presidential Election - Justice Dept.
A second Oath Keeper pleaded guilty to seditious conspiracy in the Jan. 6 riot - NPR
The Seditious Conspiracy Thickens: Third Oath Keeper Pleads Guilty to Jan. 6 Plot, Links Stewart Rhodes to Trump Inner Circle - Rolling Stone
From the always excellent Letters from an American by historian Heather Cox Richardson:
For the felony cases they HAVE brought, Politico notes that they're doing well:
I don't think predicting the future adds anything at all to this conversation; on the contrary, it may be discouraging at a time when we need all the courage we can muster.
I hope there will be many more criminal charges, at the highest level, and that we will see the criminals in jail. I also think the hearings are immensely valuable even if that hope is dashed.
But please don't believe anyone who says that no one will ever go to jail over this. No one knows what will happen. Lev Parnas is in jail. George Nader is in jail. Paul Manafort went to jail. Rick Gates pleaded guilty and went to jail. George Papadopoulos went to jail. Michael Cohen went to jail.
80 people have been sentenced to jail for their part in the January 6 coup attempt so far.
None of it is enough. We are all tired. But proclaiming in advance that no one will face any consequences is simply unwarranted.
THANK YOU for this post, bcd! It's great to have a place where we can share information about these momentous hearings.
posted by kristi at 4:34 PM on July 12, 2022 [107 favorites]
Leader of North Carolina Chapter of Oath Keepers Pleads Guilty to Seditious Conspiracy and Obstruction of Congress for Efforts to Stop Transfer of Power Following 2020 Presidential Election - Justice Dept.
A second Oath Keeper pleaded guilty to seditious conspiracy in the Jan. 6 riot - NPR
The Seditious Conspiracy Thickens: Third Oath Keeper Pleads Guilty to Jan. 6 Plot, Links Stewart Rhodes to Trump Inner Circle - Rolling Stone
From the always excellent Letters from an American by historian Heather Cox Richardson:
Nine of the Oath Keepers have been charged with seditious conspiracy. At least seven of the gang’s members, three of whom pleaded guilty to seditious conspiracy and who were close to those under indictment, are cooperating with the government.I wish the DOJ were bringing a LOT more charges, but I don't work there, so I don't know what considerations are involved. (Maybe they're having one of those COVID-era personnel shortages, exacerbated by the previous administration's attempt to destroy every branch of government.) (MAYBE they are even acting strategically, knowing that the public hearings will draw out more valuable testimony, just as we've seen happen in the past few weeks.)
For the felony cases they HAVE brought, Politico notes that they're doing well:
DOJ’s perfect jury trial recordAs of a month ago, Time noted that "80 defendants were sentenced to periods of incarceration." (More than 840 people have been arrested; about 185 have received criminal sentences, "while the rest are waiting for their trials or haven’t yet reached plea agreements.")
Eight Jan. 6 defendants have faced jurors on felony charges stemming from their involvement in the attack on the Capitol, choosing that rather than taking plea deals offered by the Justice Department. All of them have been convicted on every charge to date, whether it was former New York City Police Officer Thomas Webster, who was charged with assaulting an officer, or Dustin Thompson, who was charged with attempting to obstruct Congress’ work to certify the election and ransacking the Senate parliamentarian’s office in the process.
I don't think predicting the future adds anything at all to this conversation; on the contrary, it may be discouraging at a time when we need all the courage we can muster.
I hope there will be many more criminal charges, at the highest level, and that we will see the criminals in jail. I also think the hearings are immensely valuable even if that hope is dashed.
But please don't believe anyone who says that no one will ever go to jail over this. No one knows what will happen. Lev Parnas is in jail. George Nader is in jail. Paul Manafort went to jail. Rick Gates pleaded guilty and went to jail. George Papadopoulos went to jail. Michael Cohen went to jail.
80 people have been sentenced to jail for their part in the January 6 coup attempt so far.
None of it is enough. We are all tired. But proclaiming in advance that no one will face any consequences is simply unwarranted.
THANK YOU for this post, bcd! It's great to have a place where we can share information about these momentous hearings.
posted by kristi at 4:34 PM on July 12, 2022 [107 favorites]
Thanks, kristi.
It appears that they're conducting this like an organized crime investigation: going after the little fish first, and using the evidence and testimony gained from those investigations and prosecutions to work their way up the chain to the big fish.
posted by Artifice_Eternity at 4:42 PM on July 12, 2022 [4 favorites]
It appears that they're conducting this like an organized crime investigation: going after the little fish first, and using the evidence and testimony gained from those investigations and prosecutions to work their way up the chain to the big fish.
posted by Artifice_Eternity at 4:42 PM on July 12, 2022 [4 favorites]
I've caught up on the hearing and have a couple of thoughts:
- Ayres saying he "did his own research" post-Jan. 6 when deciding to no longer support Tr*mp seems significant to me, given the phrasing. I hope it changes some minds.
- Rep. Raskin's closing statement: god damn he's good.
Time to catch up on this thread now...
posted by May Kasahara at 4:44 PM on July 12, 2022 [5 favorites]
- Ayres saying he "did his own research" post-Jan. 6 when deciding to no longer support Tr*mp seems significant to me, given the phrasing. I hope it changes some minds.
- Rep. Raskin's closing statement: god damn he's good.
Time to catch up on this thread now...
posted by May Kasahara at 4:44 PM on July 12, 2022 [5 favorites]
Mother Jones has audio from before the election of Bannon saying Trunp would declare victory if Biden was winning.
posted by CheeseDigestsAll at 5:07 PM on July 12, 2022 [13 favorites]
posted by CheeseDigestsAll at 5:07 PM on July 12, 2022 [13 favorites]
As for the big fish, looks like all they need is solid evidence from december that the phrase "it'll be wild" is a code word for "it's a go for insurrection".
posted by sammyo at 5:24 PM on July 12, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by sammyo at 5:24 PM on July 12, 2022 [1 favorite]
In case anyone tracks this sort of thing, here's a screenshot of various news agencies' main pages, which I took about 20 minutes ago. Here's the imgur URL if anyone wants to check it out: https://i.imgur.com/Ieb78Is.jpeg
Notes:
- Fox and NewsMax are, perhaps unsurprisingly, completely silent on the topic
- CNN is reporting on it but seems eager to move the focus to new footage from the horrific mass murder at Uvalde
- You'll have just have to take my word that these are not fabricated in any way.
- I haven't checked the metadata on the imgur file, but if it says anything useful it will probably say I took the screenshot on my Windows 11 computer using ShareX, which is a free screenshot tool
- Not that it matters, but I didn't stitch these images together, I just happen to have an insanley wide desktop monitor, which makes these kinds of comparisons trivial to set up.
- Also not that it matters, but I don't care if anyone steals this image or whatever. It's free as in DEMOCRACY, AND WHY IT IS WORTH PROTECTING.
I hear the frustration and the weariness in so many voices (mine too). But, well, DAMMIT, I don't want to give up. I don't know what else to say or do yet, but I know I am not ready to give up.
posted by Doleful Creature at 5:38 PM on July 12, 2022 [5 favorites]
Notes:
- Fox and NewsMax are, perhaps unsurprisingly, completely silent on the topic
- CNN is reporting on it but seems eager to move the focus to new footage from the horrific mass murder at Uvalde
- You'll have just have to take my word that these are not fabricated in any way.
- I haven't checked the metadata on the imgur file, but if it says anything useful it will probably say I took the screenshot on my Windows 11 computer using ShareX, which is a free screenshot tool
- Not that it matters, but I didn't stitch these images together, I just happen to have an insanley wide desktop monitor, which makes these kinds of comparisons trivial to set up.
- Also not that it matters, but I don't care if anyone steals this image or whatever. It's free as in DEMOCRACY, AND WHY IT IS WORTH PROTECTING.
I hear the frustration and the weariness in so many voices (mine too). But, well, DAMMIT, I don't want to give up. I don't know what else to say or do yet, but I know I am not ready to give up.
posted by Doleful Creature at 5:38 PM on July 12, 2022 [5 favorites]
Descendents React to Former Oath Keeper Wearing Punk Band’s T-Shirt During January 6 Hearings
We completely disavow groups like the Oath Keepers and in no way condone their hateful ideology.
— DESCENDENTS (@descendents) July 12, 2022
Am I hallucinating that this Oath Keeper testifying before congress is wearing a Descendents t-shirt? I just had hernia surgery so this may be the painkillers.
— Chris Gethard (@ChrisGethard) July 12, 2022
posted by bluesky43 at 6:23 PM on July 12, 2022 [34 favorites]
We completely disavow groups like the Oath Keepers and in no way condone their hateful ideology.
— DESCENDENTS (@descendents) July 12, 2022
Am I hallucinating that this Oath Keeper testifying before congress is wearing a Descendents t-shirt? I just had hernia surgery so this may be the painkillers.
— Chris Gethard (@ChrisGethard) July 12, 2022
posted by bluesky43 at 6:23 PM on July 12, 2022 [34 favorites]
Thank you kristi.
posted by sundrop at 6:30 PM on July 12, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by sundrop at 6:30 PM on July 12, 2022 [1 favorite]
Republican pols like DeSantis, Cruz, and even Cheney, who wants to 'restore' the party, are eyeing presidential runs or VP slots. In a crowded field, Mike Pompeo is worth watching; per Cassidy Hutchinson' testimony: Former Secretary of State Mike Pompeo, a top Trump loyalist during the administration, reached out to former White House chief of staff Mark Meadows after the Capitol riot to inform him that Cabinet secretaries were considering invoking the 25th Amendment to remove then-President Donald Trump from power, Hutchinson testified [...]
The warning proved powerful in the White House on Jan. 7, 2021, where aides were scrambling to convince President Donald Trump to deliver a speech before the country. According to Hutchinson's testimony, Trump's closest aides, including Meadows, Ivanka Trump, and Jared Kushner, wanted Trump to make the remarks in large part out of concern about the 25th Amendment being invoked.
In a 2021 book by ABC News Chief Washington Correspondent Jonathan Karl, Pompeo through a spokesperson denied that there had ever been conversations around invoking the 25th Amendment. But in an interview with USA Today earlier this month, former Trump administration Education Secretary Betsy DeVos said that she discussed the possibility of invoking the 25th Amendment with other Cabinet members and then-Vice President Mike Pence following the Capitol attack. (CNN, June 28, 2022)
Denying it through a spokesperson leaves wiggle room. More Republicans on the outs with Trump/his followers are going to start making this claim to get back onstage.
posted by Iris Gambol at 7:12 PM on July 12, 2022
The warning proved powerful in the White House on Jan. 7, 2021, where aides were scrambling to convince President Donald Trump to deliver a speech before the country. According to Hutchinson's testimony, Trump's closest aides, including Meadows, Ivanka Trump, and Jared Kushner, wanted Trump to make the remarks in large part out of concern about the 25th Amendment being invoked.
In a 2021 book by ABC News Chief Washington Correspondent Jonathan Karl, Pompeo through a spokesperson denied that there had ever been conversations around invoking the 25th Amendment. But in an interview with USA Today earlier this month, former Trump administration Education Secretary Betsy DeVos said that she discussed the possibility of invoking the 25th Amendment with other Cabinet members and then-Vice President Mike Pence following the Capitol attack. (CNN, June 28, 2022)
Denying it through a spokesperson leaves wiggle room. More Republicans on the outs with Trump/his followers are going to start making this claim to get back onstage.
posted by Iris Gambol at 7:12 PM on July 12, 2022
I understand that the committee must build an absolutely airtight case for incitement to insurrection and seditious conspiracy, but damn me if it isn’t frustrating how long it’s taking.
But I get it.
I just hope he gets the judicial equivalent of being encased in carbonite forever.
But I’m not holding my breath.
posted by JustSayNoDawg at 8:04 PM on July 12, 2022 [2 favorites]
But I get it.
I just hope he gets the judicial equivalent of being encased in carbonite forever.
But I’m not holding my breath.
posted by JustSayNoDawg at 8:04 PM on July 12, 2022 [2 favorites]
Tell them what you're gonna tell them. Tell them. And then tell them what you just told them. And that's just what the committee has been doing. If it leads to charges who knows but the committee has been strongly presenting their case. Bang up job in my eyes. Will it sway Republicans? Doubtful. Will it sway independents? Maybe. I don't really know. But they've presented a strong case in my opinion. It may change nothing but if the US collapses in the coming years at least there will be a record of why.
posted by downtohisturtles at 8:11 PM on July 12, 2022 [14 favorites]
posted by downtohisturtles at 8:11 PM on July 12, 2022 [14 favorites]
Never in the history of our republic has a former president been indicted for sedition. And this particular former president devoted a great deal of effort towards building a Department of Justice which might be willing to engage in frivolous, politically-motivated prosecutions. He failed, thankfully, but his cynicism will give him cover to claim that his upcoming prosecution is frivolous and politically motivated. Because that's just how prosecutions work, in his mind.
The DoJ has exactly one chance to prosecute the disgraced former president. It doesn't matter that he has committed multiple crimes. It doesn't even matter that he has apparently attempted witness intimidation in the last week. To the extent that America has separate justice systems for poor people versus for rich people, he is solidly in the rich-people system, where the chance of conviction is small and the punishments tend to be light. If the DoJ moves forward with its case and the case unravels on some technicality, Trump is "exonerated" for ever. The technicality might be an incomplete form twenty-seven B stroke six, or some evidence which is inadmissible for some reason, or an important witness who suddenly decides that instead of testifying, they would like to live rent-free forever in Trump Tower or in Mar-a-Lago or at the bottom of the Hudson River. Trump is a man who greeted the Mueller Report, of all things, by claiming incorrectly that it exonerated him.
One try. If the DoJ announces their indictments, and there is a single hiccup in the case, then Trump is free for ever.
The value of the hearings by the January 6 committee, in my opinion, is that every week they are coming out in public and saying, "we have read a million pages of testimony and evidence, and the impossibly damning interpretation of J6 based on information which was publicly available on J7 was absolutely correct, except in these few instances where the reality was worse than we thought." And that mountain of evidence is going straight across town from Congress to the DoJ, in a way which is scrupulously in compliance with the law.
I have confidence in this DoJ. Being patient is always hard. But they can read a calendar just as well as I can, and they know that the game changes after they show their hand.
posted by fantabulous timewaster at 8:12 PM on July 12, 2022 [37 favorites]
The DoJ has exactly one chance to prosecute the disgraced former president. It doesn't matter that he has committed multiple crimes. It doesn't even matter that he has apparently attempted witness intimidation in the last week. To the extent that America has separate justice systems for poor people versus for rich people, he is solidly in the rich-people system, where the chance of conviction is small and the punishments tend to be light. If the DoJ moves forward with its case and the case unravels on some technicality, Trump is "exonerated" for ever. The technicality might be an incomplete form twenty-seven B stroke six, or some evidence which is inadmissible for some reason, or an important witness who suddenly decides that instead of testifying, they would like to live rent-free forever in Trump Tower or in Mar-a-Lago or at the bottom of the Hudson River. Trump is a man who greeted the Mueller Report, of all things, by claiming incorrectly that it exonerated him.
One try. If the DoJ announces their indictments, and there is a single hiccup in the case, then Trump is free for ever.
The value of the hearings by the January 6 committee, in my opinion, is that every week they are coming out in public and saying, "we have read a million pages of testimony and evidence, and the impossibly damning interpretation of J6 based on information which was publicly available on J7 was absolutely correct, except in these few instances where the reality was worse than we thought." And that mountain of evidence is going straight across town from Congress to the DoJ, in a way which is scrupulously in compliance with the law.
I have confidence in this DoJ. Being patient is always hard. But they can read a calendar just as well as I can, and they know that the game changes after they show their hand.
posted by fantabulous timewaster at 8:12 PM on July 12, 2022 [37 favorites]
sort of in awe that anyone can be optimistic about these hearings resulting in a trump indictment. like, the mueller report was released 3 years ago and ended up being a big wet fart - sure a couple people were convicted, only to be pardoned a little later on, so what real impact did it have? or the whole valerie plame thing from even farther back - anyone remember fitzmas? lying about weapons of mass destruction? anything? when was the last time someone with real power was held to any sort of account?
i mean i get the hope that somehow, when it *really* matters, the institutions are gonna pull through, but it seems like willful naivety to depend on it after institutions have repeatedly and recently failed to do just that. maybe garland is, quietly and competently, going about assembling an airtight case. could be! but what if he isn't? not completely unthinkable that a political operator like garland has no intention of indicting a former president!
at the same time, the 'nothing is going to happen anyway' fatalism kinda grates too. both sides together seem pretty emblematic of democratic politics these days in that they both justify doing nothing. if someone else is handling it, no reason to do anything. if doing something won't change the outcome, same deal.
posted by logicpunk at 8:24 PM on July 12, 2022 [7 favorites]
i mean i get the hope that somehow, when it *really* matters, the institutions are gonna pull through, but it seems like willful naivety to depend on it after institutions have repeatedly and recently failed to do just that. maybe garland is, quietly and competently, going about assembling an airtight case. could be! but what if he isn't? not completely unthinkable that a political operator like garland has no intention of indicting a former president!
at the same time, the 'nothing is going to happen anyway' fatalism kinda grates too. both sides together seem pretty emblematic of democratic politics these days in that they both justify doing nothing. if someone else is handling it, no reason to do anything. if doing something won't change the outcome, same deal.
posted by logicpunk at 8:24 PM on July 12, 2022 [7 favorites]
Being patient is always hard
True, but the clock is running on available options. So far, there has not been much in the way of consequences, and I think Republicans know this, too.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 9:53 PM on July 12, 2022
True, but the clock is running on available options. So far, there has not been much in the way of consequences, and I think Republicans know this, too.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 9:53 PM on July 12, 2022
What’s happening in the committee now is not only necessary, it is timely. Cheney and Kinzinger are dead men walking, politically speaking. They are working and getting shit done before their political careers are done (and laying the foundation for political futures if this is successful). The committee knows they have until January 2nd to get whatever they can get out in front of the public before Kevin McCarthy & Co. shut it all down.
They are being productive.
The DoJ absolutely needs this information to build cases against Trump and his lackeys. If the committee wasn’t calling witnesses and putting their findings out in the public, several of these people would be staying silent or stalling the DoJ through the court system. Assuming this information would eventually see the light of day (which is a pretty huge if), I don’t think it’s unreasonable to assume that day would still be years in the future.
We tried the quick route when the house impeached the fucker on January 13, 2021. The Republican Party made it clear they would not cooperate in the reckoning for these crimes. If this is gonna get done before the Republicans retake the executive branch and pardon everything away, i’s must be dotted and t’s must be crossed.
Am I optimistic? Christ, no! There are a ton of things that can go wrong — but there is no other choice. Grind away. Expose the lies and the liars publicly and pray that Garland will grab the baton when the time is right. Once this gets into the courts, the calculus shifts from the political to the legal. Trump has proven he can force the Republicans to acquiesce to his desires but his record on the legal side is much weaker.
I believe there will be justice eventually because, at this point, there is no other choice.
posted by Big Al 8000 at 9:58 PM on July 12, 2022 [26 favorites]
They are being productive.
The DoJ absolutely needs this information to build cases against Trump and his lackeys. If the committee wasn’t calling witnesses and putting their findings out in the public, several of these people would be staying silent or stalling the DoJ through the court system. Assuming this information would eventually see the light of day (which is a pretty huge if), I don’t think it’s unreasonable to assume that day would still be years in the future.
We tried the quick route when the house impeached the fucker on January 13, 2021. The Republican Party made it clear they would not cooperate in the reckoning for these crimes. If this is gonna get done before the Republicans retake the executive branch and pardon everything away, i’s must be dotted and t’s must be crossed.
Am I optimistic? Christ, no! There are a ton of things that can go wrong — but there is no other choice. Grind away. Expose the lies and the liars publicly and pray that Garland will grab the baton when the time is right. Once this gets into the courts, the calculus shifts from the political to the legal. Trump has proven he can force the Republicans to acquiesce to his desires but his record on the legal side is much weaker.
I believe there will be justice eventually because, at this point, there is no other choice.
posted by Big Al 8000 at 9:58 PM on July 12, 2022 [26 favorites]
What I want to know is the why of the green screened brown houndstooth pattern behind him and his lawyer when Pat Cipollone gave his testimony. That cut and paste so stuck out. Did someone drop some sort of selfie photo bomb while he answered questions?
posted by y2karl at 10:51 PM on July 12, 2022
posted by y2karl at 10:51 PM on July 12, 2022
> Tapper: I don’t know if I agree with you with all due respect. One doesn’t have to be brilliant to attempt a coup
> Bolton: I disagree with that as somebody who has helped plan coups, not here but other places…
This Bolton interview is remarkable in a few ways. But one is, the exact way he tries to exonerate Trump.
See, Trump was just a selfish little toddler rampaging around and always looking out for #1. So if you're doing that, you can't possibly be committing seditious treason even if your tantrum involves overthrowing the U.S. government etc.
See, he wasn't trying to overthrow the government in an organized way. It was more of an accidental side-effect.
Therefore: innocent.
posted by flug at 12:41 AM on July 13, 2022 [13 favorites]
> Bolton: I disagree with that as somebody who has helped plan coups, not here but other places…
This Bolton interview is remarkable in a few ways. But one is, the exact way he tries to exonerate Trump.
See, Trump was just a selfish little toddler rampaging around and always looking out for #1. So if you're doing that, you can't possibly be committing seditious treason even if your tantrum involves overthrowing the U.S. government etc.
See, he wasn't trying to overthrow the government in an organized way. It was more of an accidental side-effect.
Therefore: innocent.
posted by flug at 12:41 AM on July 13, 2022 [13 favorites]
Officer, I wasn’t shoplifting. I just saw something I really, really wanted and took it.
posted by mochapickle at 1:37 AM on July 13, 2022 [10 favorites]
posted by mochapickle at 1:37 AM on July 13, 2022 [10 favorites]
For all the folks here debating about whether it's "wise to depend on whether or not these hearings are successful" ... are you waiting on the outcome of these hearings before deciding which abortion funds to donate to? Are you letting the hearings sway who you're going to vote for in November? Is anyone holding off on whether or not they're going to volunteer to support a local candidate fighting for voter protection until the DOJ announces an indictment?
Unless some of us work in DOJ or Congress, the outcome of the hearings do not fall in the category of things that we have to depend on. Conversations like this about whether or not it's worthwhile to be optimistic or not, and how disappointed we've been just feed into a sense of learned helplessness. There are things we can all do between now and November to advance or protect democracy in this country and we should be doing that regardless of the result that these hearings produce.
Even if justice is served and Trump is sent to prison, Republicans are still going to try to install minority rule. I'd like to relink to a useful thread about various local races that are key to the integrity of elections in this country in case it can be useful for the rest of you. And if you're disillusioned with institutions, fine. What mutual aid groups and local activists are you looking to support outside of the system?
The hearings have been valuable in laying out the assault on democracy in this country. That assault is still happening. Rather than engage in the armchair punditry of predicting whether or not DOJ will do something about it, I would rather ask what are we going to do?
posted by bl1nk at 3:50 AM on July 13, 2022 [34 favorites]
Unless some of us work in DOJ or Congress, the outcome of the hearings do not fall in the category of things that we have to depend on. Conversations like this about whether or not it's worthwhile to be optimistic or not, and how disappointed we've been just feed into a sense of learned helplessness. There are things we can all do between now and November to advance or protect democracy in this country and we should be doing that regardless of the result that these hearings produce.
Even if justice is served and Trump is sent to prison, Republicans are still going to try to install minority rule. I'd like to relink to a useful thread about various local races that are key to the integrity of elections in this country in case it can be useful for the rest of you. And if you're disillusioned with institutions, fine. What mutual aid groups and local activists are you looking to support outside of the system?
The hearings have been valuable in laying out the assault on democracy in this country. That assault is still happening. Rather than engage in the armchair punditry of predicting whether or not DOJ will do something about it, I would rather ask what are we going to do?
posted by bl1nk at 3:50 AM on July 13, 2022 [34 favorites]
See, he wasn't trying to overthrow the government in an organized way. It was more of an accidental side-effect. Therefore: innocent.
It is a good thing, then, that John Bolton isn't on the January 6 committee nor is he in the DoJ, no?
Perhaps he has opened himself up to scrutiny by the committee as well by saying that as well.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 3:52 AM on July 13, 2022 [3 favorites]
It is a good thing, then, that John Bolton isn't on the January 6 committee nor is he in the DoJ, no?
Perhaps he has opened himself up to scrutiny by the committee as well by saying that as well.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 3:52 AM on July 13, 2022 [3 favorites]
or the whole valerie plame thing from even farther back - anyone remember fitzmas? lying about weapons of mass destruction? anything? when was the last time someone with real power was held to any sort of account?
Democrats have to admit their complicity in this system. Yes, the Clinton impeachment was a political hit-job by Republican extremists. But in hindsight, we would have been so much better off throwing Bill under the bus (the sex was "consentual" but the power dynamic was icky) and letting Gore take over. MoveOn.org still does good work but I can't abide the name anymore. The party has learned and changed some. Al Franken resigned when it came down to it, and the work continued. But the instinct to protect our own is strong, whether they deserve it or not.
Of course that can lead to cynicism against both parties, and a wholesale rejection of politics (which is one reason so many people don't vote). But that's a bad answer. Just like the impulse to punish Democrats for not defending abortion rights better would give Republicans more power (which would be infinitely worse). We have to punish the right people (Republicans) and get involved to hold the Democrats to account. I loved what the DSA was doing (until a bunch of them turned out to be Putin apologists). We need to focus on building and maintaining systems that can survive corrupt individuals, because individual politicians and operatives tend to be 90% self-serving rats. But we can't give up and let the rats win, no matter who's side they're on.
posted by rikschell at 4:55 AM on July 13, 2022 [7 favorites]
Democrats have to admit their complicity in this system. Yes, the Clinton impeachment was a political hit-job by Republican extremists. But in hindsight, we would have been so much better off throwing Bill under the bus (the sex was "consentual" but the power dynamic was icky) and letting Gore take over. MoveOn.org still does good work but I can't abide the name anymore. The party has learned and changed some. Al Franken resigned when it came down to it, and the work continued. But the instinct to protect our own is strong, whether they deserve it or not.
Of course that can lead to cynicism against both parties, and a wholesale rejection of politics (which is one reason so many people don't vote). But that's a bad answer. Just like the impulse to punish Democrats for not defending abortion rights better would give Republicans more power (which would be infinitely worse). We have to punish the right people (Republicans) and get involved to hold the Democrats to account. I loved what the DSA was doing (until a bunch of them turned out to be Putin apologists). We need to focus on building and maintaining systems that can survive corrupt individuals, because individual politicians and operatives tend to be 90% self-serving rats. But we can't give up and let the rats win, no matter who's side they're on.
posted by rikschell at 4:55 AM on July 13, 2022 [7 favorites]
You have to have hope. You have to fight any way you can.
Nothing worthwhile was ever won with a single blow. Everybody has to do their bit, with whatever tools they've got, even though things look bleak.
The January 6 committee is doing their best to shift public opinion and to gather evidence and to pressure the perpetrators. By itself that's useless and I'd be lying if I said I was optimistic about it. But if it creates a shift in media coverage, or charges are laid, then that's a chance to keep the fight going longer. It's a problem for the GOP to deal with when they'd rather be doing other crimes. And that buys time for everyone else to do what they can about the Supreme Court, and voter suppression, and all the other shit.
I'm so worried for all the MeFites in the US. But I know so many of you are doing what you can with whatever you've got. Please try not to shit on what other people or organisations are doing, because there's not a single action which is good enough, not yours or anyone's. There's only collective pressure over time. That's how Roe was overturned, but it works both ways.
posted by harriet vane at 6:52 AM on July 13, 2022 [17 favorites]
Nothing worthwhile was ever won with a single blow. Everybody has to do their bit, with whatever tools they've got, even though things look bleak.
The January 6 committee is doing their best to shift public opinion and to gather evidence and to pressure the perpetrators. By itself that's useless and I'd be lying if I said I was optimistic about it. But if it creates a shift in media coverage, or charges are laid, then that's a chance to keep the fight going longer. It's a problem for the GOP to deal with when they'd rather be doing other crimes. And that buys time for everyone else to do what they can about the Supreme Court, and voter suppression, and all the other shit.
I'm so worried for all the MeFites in the US. But I know so many of you are doing what you can with whatever you've got. Please try not to shit on what other people or organisations are doing, because there's not a single action which is good enough, not yours or anyone's. There's only collective pressure over time. That's how Roe was overturned, but it works both ways.
posted by harriet vane at 6:52 AM on July 13, 2022 [17 favorites]
Cheney...dead men walking
Now I get why they moved CPAC nearer to Carpathia.
posted by snuffleupagus at 7:11 AM on July 13, 2022
Now I get why they moved CPAC nearer to Carpathia.
posted by snuffleupagus at 7:11 AM on July 13, 2022
See, he wasn't trying to overthrow the government in an organized way. It was more of an accidental side-effect. Therefore: innocent.
It is a good thing, then, that John Bolton isn't on the January 6 committee nor is he in the DoJ, no?
Perhaps he has opened himself up to scrutiny by the committee as well by saying that as well.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 3:52 AM on July 1
This. And this line of argument is precisely why Liz Cheney said what she said - he's a 76 year old man who is responsible for his actions as are all other adults. There is no room for the thing Bolton is trying to push (and Bolton is so slimy).
posted by bluesky43 at 7:41 AM on July 13, 2022 [6 favorites]
It is a good thing, then, that John Bolton isn't on the January 6 committee nor is he in the DoJ, no?
Perhaps he has opened himself up to scrutiny by the committee as well by saying that as well.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 3:52 AM on July 1
This. And this line of argument is precisely why Liz Cheney said what she said - he's a 76 year old man who is responsible for his actions as are all other adults. There is no room for the thing Bolton is trying to push (and Bolton is so slimy).
posted by bluesky43 at 7:41 AM on July 13, 2022 [6 favorites]
Bolton is so slimy.
Bolton is so slimy, Trump fired him because Bolton wanted to have a full-on war with Iran..
posted by The_Vegetables at 7:58 AM on July 13, 2022 [4 favorites]
Bolton is so slimy, Trump fired him because Bolton wanted to have a full-on war with Iran..
posted by The_Vegetables at 7:58 AM on July 13, 2022 [4 favorites]
Just now I remembered all the talk back then about Trump sucking up to Putin with the goal of a deal for Trump Tower Moscow. Imagine if he’d acknowledged a peaceful transition after the election and set out to build it in 2021. And Putin invades Ukraine in 2022.
posted by TWinbrook8 at 8:10 AM on July 13, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by TWinbrook8 at 8:10 AM on July 13, 2022 [2 favorites]
Yes, the Clinton impeachment was a political hit-job by Republican extremists. But in hindsight, we would have been so much better off throwing Bill under the bus (the sex was "consentual" but the power dynamic was icky) and letting Gore take over.
Impeachment should be for when a president abuses the powers of their office. Nixon planned and covered up the Watergate break-in, including having the acting FBI director destroy evidence. Reagan (and Bush 1.0) illegally sold weapons to Iran to fund the Contras, which was forbidden by Congress. Bush 2.0 lied about Iraq's weapons capabilities to launch an illegal war.
Clinton was impeached for lying under oath about a (gross but) consensual affair between adults in a lawsuit that Paula Jones filed accusing Clinton of sexual harassment when he was governor of Arkansas; the judge later threw out the case on the grounds that Jones had failed to show any damages. The power dynamic was icky, but it wasn't an abuse of presidential powers.
Convicting Clinton and removing him from office while Republican presidents skate on far more severe offenses would've been a farce.
Also, Gore was set to take over but overreacted to the impeachment by picking Clinton scold Joe Lieberman as his running mate. Clinton's highest poll numbers came after the impeachment. Gore should've embraced the administration's accomplishments and said he disapproved of Clinton's personal conduct.
posted by kirkaracha at 8:35 AM on July 13, 2022 [29 favorites]
Impeachment should be for when a president abuses the powers of their office. Nixon planned and covered up the Watergate break-in, including having the acting FBI director destroy evidence. Reagan (and Bush 1.0) illegally sold weapons to Iran to fund the Contras, which was forbidden by Congress. Bush 2.0 lied about Iraq's weapons capabilities to launch an illegal war.
Clinton was impeached for lying under oath about a (gross but) consensual affair between adults in a lawsuit that Paula Jones filed accusing Clinton of sexual harassment when he was governor of Arkansas; the judge later threw out the case on the grounds that Jones had failed to show any damages. The power dynamic was icky, but it wasn't an abuse of presidential powers.
Convicting Clinton and removing him from office while Republican presidents skate on far more severe offenses would've been a farce.
Also, Gore was set to take over but overreacted to the impeachment by picking Clinton scold Joe Lieberman as his running mate. Clinton's highest poll numbers came after the impeachment. Gore should've embraced the administration's accomplishments and said he disapproved of Clinton's personal conduct.
posted by kirkaracha at 8:35 AM on July 13, 2022 [29 favorites]
You think a riot that killed people isn't adequate cause for mass arrests?
Arrests? Yes. Mass arrests? No. You gotta be able to tie a specific charge to a specific guy first, and just being in the vicinity of shit going down isn't enough.
Again, I wish I lived in the fantasy world you're making up here. This is simply not how things work, nor how they are set up to work. People can and often are arrested en masse when they are present at a riot, especially when there is this kind of extensive evidence of conspiracy, even more when there is this kind of violence, and especially since this was an attempted coup against our government and a physical attack on our congress.
posted by bile and syntax at 12:15 PM on July 13, 2022 [5 favorites]
Arrests? Yes. Mass arrests? No. You gotta be able to tie a specific charge to a specific guy first, and just being in the vicinity of shit going down isn't enough.
Again, I wish I lived in the fantasy world you're making up here. This is simply not how things work, nor how they are set up to work. People can and often are arrested en masse when they are present at a riot, especially when there is this kind of extensive evidence of conspiracy, even more when there is this kind of violence, and especially since this was an attempted coup against our government and a physical attack on our congress.
posted by bile and syntax at 12:15 PM on July 13, 2022 [5 favorites]
People can and often are arrested en masse when they are present at a riot
I’ve been one of those people, more than once. And guess what? The charges were dropped every time. I’d greatly prefer charges that stick to these assholes, rather than the instant justice that some of you are wishing to see.
posted by a box and a stick and a string and a bear at 12:21 PM on July 13, 2022 [14 favorites]
I’ve been one of those people, more than once. And guess what? The charges were dropped every time. I’d greatly prefer charges that stick to these assholes, rather than the instant justice that some of you are wishing to see.
posted by a box and a stick and a string and a bear at 12:21 PM on July 13, 2022 [14 favorites]
This committee hearing is the trial before the trial where the jury is the American public. The result we need to be able to successfully prosecute these crimes is to pull everyone towards the same set of facts. This is very difficult in our partisan media environment but it seems to be working. Trump’s numbers are falling and the public is coming around.
posted by interogative mood at 12:22 PM on July 13, 2022 [4 favorites]
posted by interogative mood at 12:22 PM on July 13, 2022 [4 favorites]
You gotta be able to tie a specific charge to a specific guy first
Being in the capitol on 1/6 without a badge or press pass would have been probable cause for arrest under 18 U.S. Code § 1752 ("knowingly enters or remains in any restricted building or grounds without lawful authority to do so"). Cop gives orders to leave over loudspeaker - now they're knowingly remaining - they don't leave - you arrest them. Easy.
I think the logistical barriers to rounding people up (because they had so thoroughly bungled the preparation) were probably significant, and would have slowed down clearing the space for Congress to start counting votes again, so on its face the choice not to is defensible even if it was the wrong one.
posted by BungaDunga at 12:25 PM on July 13, 2022 [3 favorites]
Being in the capitol on 1/6 without a badge or press pass would have been probable cause for arrest under 18 U.S. Code § 1752 ("knowingly enters or remains in any restricted building or grounds without lawful authority to do so"). Cop gives orders to leave over loudspeaker - now they're knowingly remaining - they don't leave - you arrest them. Easy.
I think the logistical barriers to rounding people up (because they had so thoroughly bungled the preparation) were probably significant, and would have slowed down clearing the space for Congress to start counting votes again, so on its face the choice not to is defensible even if it was the wrong one.
posted by BungaDunga at 12:25 PM on July 13, 2022 [3 favorites]
One thing about which I wonder are the production values of the January 6th Committee -- which are at La Grange Point 2 altitude in my humble opinion. The story is strong and inexorably. Easter eggs, teasers and reveals abound in the ongoing clip show of the best of their interviews. It really is must watch TV for anybody with a brain, a demographic group which includes a large slice if not more in the percentage pie of Independents, btw. So there is that.
And this last session proved that they can turn on the ad hoc dime.
Brief interview clips were read aloud with text subtitled in balloons. Longer voice changed sentences in the anonymous cloaked interviews with oscilloscope sine wave animations dropped the bigger bombs. All were gems in the building and building mosaic being wrought -- a Byzantine art for a Byzantine for Dummies palace coup. Or rather a failed Byzantine palace coup by Dummies. Whose bullets we barely dodged.
I loved the subrosa reality shows along the way. Like the Conference Room Full of Lawyers grills Cipollone or House Gears Interrogated An Intern with the World's Smallest Credibility Bookshelf -- in what appears to be a third floor under the eaves loft to boot -- Interrogates the Smallest Cog in the Trump White House Big Lie set of gears. And the point made is pertinent. But oh the contrast, oh the humanity! DC young professional division at the very least. Yet more tiles for the emerging mosaic.
These are not your father's Watergate hearings. But then we face a situation bullet much more dire. All the same the 6th of January Committee has so risen to the occasion. They are doing the work. Anybody with a brain will be talking about these shows for decades. That thought alone is something.to help keep hope alive a few moments more for me.
posted by y2karl at 12:32 PM on July 13, 2022 [9 favorites]
And this last session proved that they can turn on the ad hoc dime.
Brief interview clips were read aloud with text subtitled in balloons. Longer voice changed sentences in the anonymous cloaked interviews with oscilloscope sine wave animations dropped the bigger bombs. All were gems in the building and building mosaic being wrought -- a Byzantine art for a Byzantine for Dummies palace coup. Or rather a failed Byzantine palace coup by Dummies. Whose bullets we barely dodged.
I loved the subrosa reality shows along the way. Like the Conference Room Full of Lawyers grills Cipollone or House Gears Interrogated An Intern with the World's Smallest Credibility Bookshelf -- in what appears to be a third floor under the eaves loft to boot -- Interrogates the Smallest Cog in the Trump White House Big Lie set of gears. And the point made is pertinent. But oh the contrast, oh the humanity! DC young professional division at the very least. Yet more tiles for the emerging mosaic.
These are not your father's Watergate hearings. But then we face a situation bullet much more dire. All the same the 6th of January Committee has so risen to the occasion. They are doing the work. Anybody with a brain will be talking about these shows for decades. That thought alone is something.to help keep hope alive a few moments more for me.
posted by y2karl at 12:32 PM on July 13, 2022 [9 favorites]
People can and often are arrested en masse when they are present at a riot, especially when there is this kind of extensive evidence of conspiracy, even more when there is this kind of violence, and especially since this was an attempted coup against our government and a physical attack on our congress.
Number one: as a box and a stick and a string and a bear says, those kinds of en masse arrests at protests are often thrown out as false arrests because the cops have no evidence, they just grabbed people. I don't know about you, but I'd like these charges not to be dropped.
Number two: the only reason we know about "this kind of extensive evidence of conspiracy" is because of the hearings that are purportedly the topic of this post.
Number three: over 850 people HAVE been arrested, so if I'm in "a fantasy world" it looks like you're here with me, bub.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 12:51 PM on July 13, 2022 [8 favorites]
Number one: as a box and a stick and a string and a bear says, those kinds of en masse arrests at protests are often thrown out as false arrests because the cops have no evidence, they just grabbed people. I don't know about you, but I'd like these charges not to be dropped.
Number two: the only reason we know about "this kind of extensive evidence of conspiracy" is because of the hearings that are purportedly the topic of this post.
Number three: over 850 people HAVE been arrested, so if I'm in "a fantasy world" it looks like you're here with me, bub.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 12:51 PM on July 13, 2022 [8 favorites]
> y2karl: "These are not your father's Watergate hearings."
Or, as Vox put it, "The Trump presidency was a reality show. The January 6 hearings are the reunion special."
posted by mhum at 12:54 PM on July 13, 2022 [4 favorites]
Or, as Vox put it, "The Trump presidency was a reality show. The January 6 hearings are the reunion special."
posted by mhum at 12:54 PM on July 13, 2022 [4 favorites]
Reality television made Trump, both literally (he built considerable fame atop The Apprentice) and figuratively (he seemed to subconsciously fashion himself as a reality TV character on the campaign trail). And even though Trump is no longer in office, reality TV remains a compelling way to understand him and his administration.
A thought that has crossed my mind more than once since 2016. The people who pitched The Apprentice to him then have bought their own circle in Hell.
posted by y2karl at 1:51 PM on July 13, 2022 [4 favorites]
A thought that has crossed my mind more than once since 2016. The people who pitched The Apprentice to him then have bought their own circle in Hell.
posted by y2karl at 1:51 PM on July 13, 2022 [4 favorites]
Number two: the only reason we know about "this kind of extensive evidence of conspiracy" is because of the hearings that are purportedly the topic of this post.
The evidence was gained before the hearings, the hearings are just the presentation of the evidence, some of which is strong, and some of which is really weak (like throwing hamburgers at walls, 3rd person references to grabbing steering wheels, and random twitter guy talking about twitter's response).
posted by The_Vegetables at 2:08 PM on July 13, 2022
The evidence was gained before the hearings, the hearings are just the presentation of the evidence, some of which is strong, and some of which is really weak (like throwing hamburgers at walls, 3rd person references to grabbing steering wheels, and random twitter guy talking about twitter's response).
posted by The_Vegetables at 2:08 PM on July 13, 2022
From mhum's link:
...But in the moment, as Hutchinson was testifying, what seemed to garner the greatest buzz on social media platforms was the ketchup. It was so ridiculous, so overly dramatic, so campy. Even though Hutchinson says it really happened, it nevertheless had big reality TV vibes, a sense that what was real had been turned up a couple of notches. And that was what made the moment stand out.posted by y2karl at 2:31 PM on July 13, 2022 [5 favorites]
...Yet perversely, I think that’s why “Trump threw a plate at a wall” broke through in a way some of the other January 6 committee revelations have not. Hutchinson’s story, dryly delivered though it was, played into a different type of reality TV villain — not the calculating mastermind willing to do anything to win but the unhinged person who makes everybody’s life hell. (Imagine the table flip moment from Real Housewives of New Jersey and I think you’ll see what I mean.)
...I am under no illusions that anything will happen to make Trump suffer actual consequences for what he did, but I do think the hearings have finally exposed him for who he is, just a little bit. He’s not a scheming Survivor. He’s a snippy, back-biting Real President of DC.
rather than the instant justice that some of you are wishing to see
I'd just settle for regular old justice, at this point. Cheers.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 3:58 PM on July 13, 2022 [1 favorite]
I'd just settle for regular old justice, at this point. Cheers.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 3:58 PM on July 13, 2022 [1 favorite]
Y'all remember that the Capitol Police were completely overwhelmed by the numbers of rioters on Jan 6, right? And that it was the Trump admin still in power at that time, not Democrats? Who, exactly, was going to do all the immediate trespassing arrests? I'm pretty sure the majority of the Capitol Police would have been happy to get rid of that huge crowd just like that, just snap their fingers and get them onto transport buses to be arrested/processed. Setting aside whether that's a good idea to do from a standpoint of meaningful convictions (I'm with EmpressCallipygos on that), that is not and was never physically possible on that day. It's not like the Trump line of command was going to call in more CP or National Guard, either. I don't get being mad at the administration that wasn't in power at the time.
posted by misskaz at 4:17 PM on July 13, 2022 [21 favorites]
posted by misskaz at 4:17 PM on July 13, 2022 [21 favorites]
('Regular old' English justice featured hanging whoever ran across aristocratic interests, as an object lesson, and a distraction from commonplace miseries. As versus holding those actually responsible to account. Comparisons to today are left as an exercise for the reader.)
posted by snuffleupagus at 5:55 PM on July 13, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by snuffleupagus at 5:55 PM on July 13, 2022 [1 favorite]
I’d just like the people responsible at the top to face some consequences including not being the government after the next election.
It’s a pretty faint hope, admittedly.
posted by Artw at 8:24 PM on July 13, 2022 [7 favorites]
It’s a pretty faint hope, admittedly.
posted by Artw at 8:24 PM on July 13, 2022 [7 favorites]
Here is some movement from the Justice Department -- The department has asked the House committee investigating the Capitol attack to share transcripts regarding the false electors scheme, the only topic it has broached with the panel.
posted by NotLost at 11:02 PM on July 13, 2022 [7 favorites]
posted by NotLost at 11:02 PM on July 13, 2022 [7 favorites]
What is a good running source on the hearings? I usually read the NYT and WaPo. But stories move off the front before I can read them all.
posted by NotLost at 11:04 PM on July 13, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by NotLost at 11:04 PM on July 13, 2022 [1 favorite]
I don't have words for the brilliance of Asha Rangappa's drawing in this tweet:
posted by bcd at 11:57 PM on July 13, 2022 [15 favorites]
UPDATED COUP CHART with additions (including some special requests). Use it to follow along in the hearings. Once everything and everyone on this chart gets mentioned, you win bingoYou really need to see it. She's always a great read. Here's her thread explaining everything in the drawing.
posted by bcd at 11:57 PM on July 13, 2022 [15 favorites]
The latest Letters from an American by historian Heather Cox Richardson has some overlooked items that grabbed my attention:
(And I had missed the fact that Byrne is no longer CEO of Overstock because of his involvement with Maria Butina. I REALLY want to know to what extent illegal Russian interference has contributed to the coup attempt, and to the radicalization of the Republican party.)
It seems to me that there's still a LOT of useful ground for the committee to investigate. I wonder how long it will take them. I'm glad they're doing it as carefully and skillfully as they have been.
posted by kristi at 8:13 AM on July 14, 2022 [18 favorites]
Patrick Byrne, the former chief executive officer of Overstock, who was mentioned in the hearing yesterday as having attended the December 18 meeting in which lawyer Sidney Powell and former national security adviser Michael Flynn called for Trump to seize voting machines, will talk with the committee on Friday.I wonder whether the January 6 Committee will subpoena those ten representatives who were part of the conspiracy, or Rep. Loudermilk.
Byrne ran Overstock for twenty years before having to resign in 2019 after admitting to an affair with Maria Butina, an apparent guns rights activist from Russia who ingratiated herself with Republican politicians and who later pleaded guilty to one count of conspiracy to act as a Russian agent without registering with the Department of Justice. She now sits in the Russian parliament, or Duma, which critics say is a reward from the Kremlin.
...
Former White House director of strategic communications Alyssa Farah Griffin, who now works for CNN, told CNN today that when she told Trump’s White House chief of staff Mark Meadows that she was resigning after the election to move on as Trump’s term ended, Meadows said to her: “What if I could tell you that we’re actually going to be staying?”
...
it appears that a number of our lawmakers were complicit in the attempt to overturn our democracy. The committee has named at least ten representatives who conspired with the president, and another, Representative Barry Loudermilk (R-GA), who gave a tour through the Capitol complex on January 5, but there have been hints that others knew something was up as well, and that some might have been helping with the scheme.
There is still the question of which senators and representatives saw a presentation of the 38-page PowerPoint titled “Election Fraud, Foreign Interference & Options for 6 JAN,” referred to by the committee in mid-December 2021.
...
Cassidy Hutchinson ... testified that House minority leader Kevin McCarthy called her, angry, when he thought Trump was going to go to the Capitol.
“‘[T]he president just said he’s marching to the Capitol,” McCarthy allegedly told Hutchinson. “You told me this whole week you aren’t coming up here, why would you lie to me?’”
Why had McCarthy been hearing for a week about Trump’s plans with regard to the Capitol?
On January 5, Senator Charles Grassley (R-IA), who was the president pro tempore of the Senate, the second highest-ranking person in the Senate after the vice president, told reporters about the next day: “Well, first of all, I will be—if the Vice President isn’t there and we don't expect him to be there, I will be presiding over the Senate.” His office immediately clarified that Grassley meant only that he would preside over counting of the Electoral Votes only if Vice President Mike Pence “had to step away during Wednesday’s proceedings,” and that “‘[e]very indication we have is that the vice president will be there.” But considering everything we know now about the plans to get Pence out of the way, Grassley’s comment continues to bother me.
(And I had missed the fact that Byrne is no longer CEO of Overstock because of his involvement with Maria Butina. I REALLY want to know to what extent illegal Russian interference has contributed to the coup attempt, and to the radicalization of the Republican party.)
It seems to me that there's still a LOT of useful ground for the committee to investigate. I wonder how long it will take them. I'm glad they're doing it as carefully and skillfully as they have been.
posted by kristi at 8:13 AM on July 14, 2022 [18 favorites]
Former White House director of strategic communications Alyssa Farah Griffin, who now works for CNN, told CNN today that when she told Trump’s White House chief of staff Mark Meadows that she was resigning after the election to move on as Trump’s term ended, Meadows said to her: “What if I could tell you that we’re actually going to be staying?”
So do these people just have unlimited money, fame, future connections where they don't even have to be slightly curious about anything? i mean, the guy who asks casually if you want to buy drugs in the McDonalds bathroom, you say "No" and move on. But if your boss casually asks if you want to be part of a crime, don't you ScoobyDoo that and try to get some details? And she apparently wasn't part of the planning (even though her entire family is far-right nutcases), but she gets the 'in' anyways?
But considering everything we know now about the plans to get Pence out of the way, Grassley’s comment continues to bother me.
Also, I'm sorry, but what do we "know" about plans to get Pence out of the way, other than that they didn't work? Is what is implied here that after Pence was hanged in front of the Capitol, Grassley was going to certify Trump the winner? Really? Sure.
posted by The_Vegetables at 9:11 AM on July 14, 2022 [4 favorites]
So do these people just have unlimited money, fame, future connections where they don't even have to be slightly curious about anything? i mean, the guy who asks casually if you want to buy drugs in the McDonalds bathroom, you say "No" and move on. But if your boss casually asks if you want to be part of a crime, don't you ScoobyDoo that and try to get some details? And she apparently wasn't part of the planning (even though her entire family is far-right nutcases), but she gets the 'in' anyways?
But considering everything we know now about the plans to get Pence out of the way, Grassley’s comment continues to bother me.
Also, I'm sorry, but what do we "know" about plans to get Pence out of the way, other than that they didn't work? Is what is implied here that after Pence was hanged in front of the Capitol, Grassley was going to certify Trump the winner? Really? Sure.
posted by The_Vegetables at 9:11 AM on July 14, 2022 [4 favorites]
I'm just saying that entire Cox-Richardson piece comes off as 'bad conspiracy, with the strings and stuff', not real conspiracy.
posted by The_Vegetables at 9:13 AM on July 14, 2022
posted by The_Vegetables at 9:13 AM on July 14, 2022
... all they need is solid evidence from december that the phrase "it'll be wild" is a code word for "it's a go for insurrection
This is an abyss that has only gotten a flash of the needed sunlight. Toddler knew for sure that the various terrorist cells were at the ready, and at his service, such that a single vague tweet was enough to set it all in motion.
How? Through whom? Since when? I expect that the J6 committee actually has a lot more on this, but it was sufficient to show what they did, after the crazy meeting, to establish that J6 was planned, by the raging toddler. The showrunner is worth whether they're paying him.
posted by Dashy at 9:16 AM on July 14, 2022
This is an abyss that has only gotten a flash of the needed sunlight. Toddler knew for sure that the various terrorist cells were at the ready, and at his service, such that a single vague tweet was enough to set it all in motion.
How? Through whom? Since when? I expect that the J6 committee actually has a lot more on this, but it was sufficient to show what they did, after the crazy meeting, to establish that J6 was planned, by the raging toddler. The showrunner is worth whether they're paying him.
posted by Dashy at 9:16 AM on July 14, 2022
Also, I'm sorry, but what do we "know" about plans to get Pence out of the way, other than that they didn't work? Is what is implied here that after Pence was hanged in front of the Capitol, Grassley was going to certify Trump the winner? Really? Sure.
I don't think it's necessary to believe that Pence would be hanged or killed, but only that he would not be presiding over the count, and that his absence, and thus the opportunity for Grassley to do what Pence would not, was planned.
The fact that plans were made to divert Pence is well established, I believe.
posted by Dashy at 9:21 AM on July 14, 2022 [6 favorites]
I don't think it's necessary to believe that Pence would be hanged or killed, but only that he would not be presiding over the count, and that his absence, and thus the opportunity for Grassley to do what Pence would not, was planned.
The fact that plans were made to divert Pence is well established, I believe.
posted by Dashy at 9:21 AM on July 14, 2022 [6 favorites]
old enough to recall pompeo smirkingly suggesting "smooth transition" to president horrorshow's second term almost immediately after the election in 2020.
probably just coincidence.
posted by 20 year lurk at 9:21 AM on July 14, 2022 [6 favorites]
probably just coincidence.
posted by 20 year lurk at 9:21 AM on July 14, 2022 [6 favorites]
I REALLY want to know to what extent illegal Russian interference has contributed to...the radicalization of the Republican party
The answer to that is "not at all". The radicalisation of the Republican Party has been ongoing for over thirty years now, and you can thank Rush Limbaugh, Rupert Murdoch, and Roger Ailes for that (and ultimately, I guess, you can thank the Reagan FCC's repeal of the Fairness Doctrine, which gave rise to right-wing talk radio, which led to the GOP constructing their own alternative media ecosystem). This is a hallmark of fascism generally; fascist movements have dedicated propaganda, their own schools for indoctrication, etc (see the homeschooling and "school choice" movements on the right, and see also the existence of places like Bob Jones and Liberty Universities, etc). The Russians may have taken advantage of something that was already there, but this is 100% home-grown.
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 10:19 AM on July 14, 2022 [24 favorites]
The answer to that is "not at all". The radicalisation of the Republican Party has been ongoing for over thirty years now, and you can thank Rush Limbaugh, Rupert Murdoch, and Roger Ailes for that (and ultimately, I guess, you can thank the Reagan FCC's repeal of the Fairness Doctrine, which gave rise to right-wing talk radio, which led to the GOP constructing their own alternative media ecosystem). This is a hallmark of fascism generally; fascist movements have dedicated propaganda, their own schools for indoctrication, etc (see the homeschooling and "school choice" movements on the right, and see also the existence of places like Bob Jones and Liberty Universities, etc). The Russians may have taken advantage of something that was already there, but this is 100% home-grown.
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 10:19 AM on July 14, 2022 [24 favorites]
It seems to me that there's still a LOT of useful ground for the committee to investigate.
The whole Putin's Poodle Russian Stooge part could be zoomed in upon and re-scrutinized. Michael Flynn sitting cheek to cheek with Vladimir Putin five years ago at the RT anniversary party comes to mind. Under oath later to a Congressional committee he took the 5th on the topic. Five years ago. Some things never change.
posted by y2karl at 11:33 AM on July 14, 2022 [4 favorites]
The whole Putin's Poodle Russian Stooge part could be zoomed in upon and re-scrutinized. Michael Flynn sitting cheek to cheek with Vladimir Putin five years ago at the RT anniversary party comes to mind. Under oath later to a Congressional committee he took the 5th on the topic. Five years ago. Some things never change.
posted by y2karl at 11:33 AM on July 14, 2022 [4 favorites]
.. all they need is solid evidence from december that the phrase "it'll be wild" is a code word for "it's a go for insurrectionI don't know that we'll ever find a smoking gun document saying that "the coup codeword is: ..." (and I'll honestly be surprised if it actually exists, though a lot of surprising things have already emerged from these hearings)
This is an abyss that has only gotten a flash of the needed sunlight. Toddler knew for sure that the various terrorist cells were at the ready, and at his service, such that a single vague tweet was enough to set it all in motion.
How? Through whom? Since when? I expect that the J6 committee actually has a lot more on this, but it was sufficient to show what they did, after the crazy meeting, to establish that J6 was planned, by the raging toddler. The showrunner is worth whether they're paying him.
Stochastic terrorism has been a thing ever since Henry II had a beef with Thomas Becket, but it really picked up speed after Gabby Giffords was shot. There was no coordination. The Tea Party and Sarah Palin just put out a poster talking about Gabby Giffords, and a put a pair of crosshairs on Giffords' face, then Giffords was shot. The right grasped that you no longer need to explicitly order people to shoot your political opponents.
If you don't care too much about specific outcomes or actions, and you just want to create an atmosphere of chaos and violence that you can exploit, insinuation, propaganda, and maintaining an atmosphere where angry, disenfranchised people have easy access to firearms will accomplish your aims without having to get your hands dirty.
This is why so much of the hearing is focusing on Trump knowing what was going to happen and Trump intentionally choosing to let this happen. If the trial or investigation focused on finding a smoking gun conspiracy plan, it's likely going to fail. It needs to prove in this modern age of Fox News hate speech and incitement, that you don't need explicit planning, and knowing that your rhetoric will inspire violence and that you want the violence to happen is enough to be a criminal act.
posted by bl1nk at 12:52 PM on July 14, 2022 [20 favorites]
This is an abyss that has only gotten a flash of the needed sunlight. Toddler knew for sure that the various terrorist cells were at the ready, and at his service, such that a single vague tweet was enough to set it all in motion.
He knew that his base could be set into motion by cryptic ramblings and never-even-having-been-explained code phrases from someone who wasn't him, someone who wasn't EVEN IN THE GOVERNMENT but pretended to be a highly-connected source posting to an anonymous forum under a single-letter pseudonym. Revving up the base personally but indirectly (more indirectly than "stand down and stand by," anyway) was child's play.
posted by delfin at 1:10 PM on July 14, 2022 [2 favorites]
He knew that his base could be set into motion by cryptic ramblings and never-even-having-been-explained code phrases from someone who wasn't him, someone who wasn't EVEN IN THE GOVERNMENT but pretended to be a highly-connected source posting to an anonymous forum under a single-letter pseudonym. Revving up the base personally but indirectly (more indirectly than "stand down and stand by," anyway) was child's play.
posted by delfin at 1:10 PM on July 14, 2022 [2 favorites]
you can thank Rush Limbaugh, Rupert Murdoch, and Roger Ailes
Newt Gingrich has entered the chat.
posted by kirkaracha at 1:21 PM on July 14, 2022 [10 favorites]
Newt Gingrich has entered the chat.
posted by kirkaracha at 1:21 PM on July 14, 2022 [10 favorites]
Number two: the only reason we know about "this kind of extensive evidence of conspiracy" is because of the hearings that are purportedly the topic of this post.
Two: anyone who was online and paying attention knew about the conspiracy. It wasn't exactly a well-kept secret, you're being deliberately disingenuous. Oh, who could have known about something that was literally all over twitter and facebook? Who could have possibly known about something that conservatives planned in the open?
posted by bile and syntax at 1:27 PM on July 14, 2022 [3 favorites]
Two: anyone who was online and paying attention knew about the conspiracy. It wasn't exactly a well-kept secret, you're being deliberately disingenuous. Oh, who could have known about something that was literally all over twitter and facebook? Who could have possibly known about something that conservatives planned in the open?
posted by bile and syntax at 1:27 PM on July 14, 2022 [3 favorites]
you can thank Rush Limbaugh, Rupert Murdoch, and Roger Ailes
Newt Gingrich has entered the chat.
I think the last 20 years have proven that Newt Gingrich was, at best, a person in the right place at the right time. After he hit the ball that Limbaugh and Murdoch and Ailes put on the tee, he failed constantly.
posted by Etrigan at 1:44 PM on July 14, 2022 [3 favorites]
Newt Gingrich has entered the chat.
I think the last 20 years have proven that Newt Gingrich was, at best, a person in the right place at the right time. After he hit the ball that Limbaugh and Murdoch and Ailes put on the tee, he failed constantly.
posted by Etrigan at 1:44 PM on July 14, 2022 [3 favorites]
Donald Trump on 2024: ‘I’ve Already Made That Decision’
“Well, in my own mind, I’ve already made that decision, so nothing factors in anymore. In my own mind, I’ve already made that decision,” he said.posted by kirkaracha at 1:46 PM on July 14, 2022 [2 favorites]
He wouldn’t disclose what he’d decided. Not at first. But then he couldn’t help himself. “I would say my big decision will be whether I go before or after,” he said. “You understand what that means?” His tone was conspiratorial. Was he referring to the midterm elections? He repeated after me: “Midterms.” Suddenly, he relaxed, as though my speaking the word had somehow set it free for discussion. “Do I go before or after? That will be my big decision,” he said.
Newt Gingrich has entered the chat
Gingrich's "Contract With America" would have been a lot less successful without Limbaugh and his assorted imitators (like Neal Boortz et al) beating the drum and hammering the Clintons nonstop (Hillary was right about the vast right-wing conspiracy).
Funny thing, Gingrich was actually the liberal option when he first ran for Congress; his opponent was an old-school segregationist who'd signed the Southern Manifesto.
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 2:39 PM on July 14, 2022 [2 favorites]
Gingrich's "Contract With America" would have been a lot less successful without Limbaugh and his assorted imitators (like Neal Boortz et al) beating the drum and hammering the Clintons nonstop (Hillary was right about the vast right-wing conspiracy).
Funny thing, Gingrich was actually the liberal option when he first ran for Congress; his opponent was an old-school segregationist who'd signed the Southern Manifesto.
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 2:39 PM on July 14, 2022 [2 favorites]
The Justice Department has asked the House committee investigating the Jan. 6 attack on the Capitol for evidence it has accumulated about the scheme by former President Donald J. Trump and his allies to put forward false slates of pro-Trump electors in battleground states won by Joseph R. Biden Jr. in 2020.Jan. 6 Panel Will Turn Over Evidence on Fake Electors to the Justice Dept.
Representative Bennie Thompson, Democrat of Mississippi and the chairman of the committee, disclosed the request to reporters on Capitol Hill on Wednesday, and a person familiar with the panel’s work said discussions with the Justice Department about the false elector scheme were ongoing. Those talks suggest that the department is sharpening its focus on that aspect of Mr. Trump’s efforts to overturn the election, one with a direct line to the former president.
Mr. Thompson said the committee was working with federal prosecutors to allow them to review the transcripts of interviews the panel has done with people who served as so-called alternate electors for Mr. Trump. Mr. Thompson said the Justice Department’s investigation into “fraudulent electors” was the only specific topic the agency had broached with the committee.
...The committee’s focus on potential witness tampering by Mr. Trump appears to be an effort to prod the Justice Department to investigate the former president for potential crimes. At each of its recent hearings, the panel has presented evidence that its members believe could be used to bolster criminal charges against Mr. Trump. The committee has provided details, including about the fake electors, that could be grounds for charges of conspiracy to defraud the American people, falsifying documents and obstructing an official proceeding of Congress.
Keep hope alive.
posted by y2karl at 2:52 PM on July 14, 2022 [6 favorites]
Seems like a bad day year and a half for justice, when members of the Secret Service who conspired with rioters' and Trump's plans to detain Pence are not rotting in prison, let alone facing charges of treason against the United States.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 3:25 PM on July 14, 2022 [6 favorites]
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 3:25 PM on July 14, 2022 [6 favorites]
Secret Service Deleted Jan. 6 Text Messages After Oversight Officials Requested Them
Holy. Is that saying that the plan was essentially to kidnap Pence, and he was just smart enough to figure it out and not go along with it?
posted by Mchelly at 8:00 PM on July 14, 2022 [7 favorites]
Holy. Is that saying that the plan was essentially to kidnap Pence, and he was just smart enough to figure it out and not go along with it?
posted by Mchelly at 8:00 PM on July 14, 2022 [7 favorites]
Yes. And that Grassley absolutely knew about it in advance.
posted by mochapickle at 8:50 PM on July 14, 2022 [4 favorites]
posted by mochapickle at 8:50 PM on July 14, 2022 [4 favorites]
This is certainly the first I’m hearing about such a plan/conspiracy, and I was paying a reasonable amount of attention.
I think it is perhaps easy to extrapolate backwards when new evidence confirms one’s suspicions and feel like the new evidence is not actually new, but something that was previously known. (Good teaching sometimes does that, for example, which means that students don’t necessarily notice that they are learning or how much, which can sometimes be an issue when it comes to student course surveys/evaluations).
posted by eviemath at 9:24 PM on July 14, 2022 [3 favorites]
I think it is perhaps easy to extrapolate backwards when new evidence confirms one’s suspicions and feel like the new evidence is not actually new, but something that was previously known. (Good teaching sometimes does that, for example, which means that students don’t necessarily notice that they are learning or how much, which can sometimes be an issue when it comes to student course surveys/evaluations).
posted by eviemath at 9:24 PM on July 14, 2022 [3 favorites]
I think I'd read about the Kellog/Ornato exchange before. But the deleting of messages is very suspect. The Secret Service is probably one of those organizations that should be shut down entirely and rebuilt from scratch, I feel there are always scandals with them. And how can one be engaged in any aspect of national security and think Trump is the right person for president? Or participate in a coup? It's sick.
posted by mumimor at 10:03 PM on July 14, 2022 [7 favorites]
posted by mumimor at 10:03 PM on July 14, 2022 [7 favorites]
Chuck Grassley has always been the most opportunistic piece of shit. He’s just quieter than the most outspoken people but he’s truly the lowest. I assure you, he believes in nothing.
posted by OnTheLastCastle at 10:51 PM on July 14, 2022 [6 favorites]
posted by OnTheLastCastle at 10:51 PM on July 14, 2022 [6 favorites]
Secret Service Deleted Jan. 6 Text Messages After Oversight Officials Requested Them
Sounds like a clear cut case of Obstruction of Justice, or at least Obstruction of Congress.
posted by Gelatin at 7:12 AM on July 15, 2022 [1 favorite]
Sounds like a clear cut case of Obstruction of Justice, or at least Obstruction of Congress.
posted by Gelatin at 7:12 AM on July 15, 2022 [1 favorite]
Is this info out there because those deleted messages can be subpoenaed / recovered by the FBI, or is this a "too bad, so sad" situation?
posted by Mchelly at 7:38 AM on July 15, 2022 [3 favorites]
posted by Mchelly at 7:38 AM on July 15, 2022 [3 favorites]
This is certainly the first I’m hearing about such a plan/conspiracy, and I was paying a reasonable amount of attention.
That 'plan' is extremely silly. I mean, if Pence leaves the Capitol, then whoever's next in line just automatically becomes the decider? What has to happen to Pence? Why can't Pence certify from afar? Couldn't they certify the next day? And the American public doesn't really care what happened to Pence? Not even the people from his home state?
Doesn't Occam's Razor say all that is total nonsense and the Secret Service was trying to protect his ass from getting hung (or injured in a riot) which is their actual job? And since they didn't drive Trump to the Capitol, which allegedly angered him, is there really enough evidence to declare them part of his secret police squad?
Weird too, because Bush left the White House on 911 yet still retained his presidential powers, but the VP leaves and it's passed on to the next in line?
Again, strings conspiracy.
posted by The_Vegetables at 10:16 AM on July 15, 2022 [1 favorite]
That 'plan' is extremely silly. I mean, if Pence leaves the Capitol, then whoever's next in line just automatically becomes the decider? What has to happen to Pence? Why can't Pence certify from afar? Couldn't they certify the next day? And the American public doesn't really care what happened to Pence? Not even the people from his home state?
Doesn't Occam's Razor say all that is total nonsense and the Secret Service was trying to protect his ass from getting hung (or injured in a riot) which is their actual job? And since they didn't drive Trump to the Capitol, which allegedly angered him, is there really enough evidence to declare them part of his secret police squad?
Weird too, because Bush left the White House on 911 yet still retained his presidential powers, but the VP leaves and it's passed on to the next in line?
Again, strings conspiracy.
posted by The_Vegetables at 10:16 AM on July 15, 2022 [1 favorite]
“The plan has glaring holes” not really a reason to exclude it as a possibility with this lot. “The plan is completely stupid” not exactly a reason to think it might not work with them either.
posted by Artw at 10:26 AM on July 15, 2022 [13 favorites]
posted by Artw at 10:26 AM on July 15, 2022 [13 favorites]
Doesn't Occam's Razor say all that is total nonsense and the Secret Service was trying to protect his ass from getting hung (or injured in a riot) which is their actual job?
If we're going to apply Occam to the Secret Service, the most glaring thing is that they should have whisked Toddler away, presto. They did not. That's the best evidence that the SS was not playing to the usual rules.
posted by Dashy at 10:35 AM on July 15, 2022 [6 favorites]
If we're going to apply Occam to the Secret Service, the most glaring thing is that they should have whisked Toddler away, presto. They did not. That's the best evidence that the SS was not playing to the usual rules.
posted by Dashy at 10:35 AM on July 15, 2022 [6 favorites]
The plan being unworkable / ludicrous is irrelevant. If there’s hard evidence that they made such a plan with the belief and intention that it would work, that’s still (or still ought to be) legally actionable.
Armed robbery with a toy gun still gets you arrested.
posted by Mchelly at 10:36 AM on July 15, 2022 [9 favorites]
Armed robbery with a toy gun still gets you arrested.
posted by Mchelly at 10:36 AM on July 15, 2022 [9 favorites]
I mean, if Pence leaves the Capitol, then whoever's next in line just automatically becomes the decider?
Yes. The Senate is very bound by tradition. You can't preside via Zoom call. Theorically, they could adopt new rules to allow that, but they tend not to advance beyond what was effective in the 19th century.
Repeating from above
posted by CheeseDigestsAll at 10:40 AM on July 15, 2022 [15 favorites]
Yes. The Senate is very bound by tradition. You can't preside via Zoom call. Theorically, they could adopt new rules to allow that, but they tend not to advance beyond what was effective in the 19th century.
Repeating from above
On January 5, Senator Charles Grassley (R-IA), who was the president pro tempore of the Senate, the second highest-ranking person in the Senate after the vice president, told reporters about the next day: “Well, first of all, I will be—if the Vice President isn’t there and we don't expect him to be there, I will be presiding over the Senate.”The question remains, why did Grassley not expect Pence to be present?
posted by CheeseDigestsAll at 10:40 AM on July 15, 2022 [15 favorites]
They were very clearly planning to cause enough chaos that Trump would "have" to step in and "have" to stay president through the "emergency", relying on a rally-round-the-flag effect to keep the majority quiet and the cops/National Guard/paramilitaries to beat down the rest. Anything that could create fear and confusion could aid this - "the VP is missing, he was taken away in a Secret Service car and now the car and the VP can't be found, antifa must have killed them all" would be one way to play it if you had some crooked Secret Service agents, for instance.
I mean seriously, imagine that an armed mob is in the Capitol and a bunch of Democrats have been shot or beaten to death on national TV, then there's a rumor that the VP is also dead and everyone down the GOP foodchain begs Trump to stay on "just until the emergency is over". Who is going to naysay? Who has the power to naysay, since that would involve shooting the "patriotic" Americans in the capitol? And couple that with ten or fifteen similar takeovers at state houses in red states, you have blood and fire coast to coast and....how would you install a new president?
Remember how terrified everyone was after 9-11? People weren't thinking at all for weeks and a lot of bad shit went down. And we didn't have paramilitaries scattered around the country then either.
It is extremely weird to me to reflect that Mike Pence, garbage human and moral monster, did in fact sort of save the republic.
posted by Frowner at 10:41 AM on July 15, 2022 [26 favorites]
I mean seriously, imagine that an armed mob is in the Capitol and a bunch of Democrats have been shot or beaten to death on national TV, then there's a rumor that the VP is also dead and everyone down the GOP foodchain begs Trump to stay on "just until the emergency is over". Who is going to naysay? Who has the power to naysay, since that would involve shooting the "patriotic" Americans in the capitol? And couple that with ten or fifteen similar takeovers at state houses in red states, you have blood and fire coast to coast and....how would you install a new president?
Remember how terrified everyone was after 9-11? People weren't thinking at all for weeks and a lot of bad shit went down. And we didn't have paramilitaries scattered around the country then either.
It is extremely weird to me to reflect that Mike Pence, garbage human and moral monster, did in fact sort of save the republic.
posted by Frowner at 10:41 AM on July 15, 2022 [26 favorites]
That 'plan' is extremely silly. I mean, if Pence leaves the Capitol, then whoever's next in line just automatically becomes the decider?
That would have been Grassley. Pence wasn't willing to do Trump's bullshit in this case. Grassley, by all accounts, was.
What has to happen to Pence?
He just needs to be elsewhere.
Why can't Pence certify from afar?
Pence doesn't certify. The House and Senate certify. Pence is the presiding officer. If he's not there, Grassley presides.
Couldn't they certify the next day?
Sure, if they were just honestly reacting to a riot. But this was a plan. We don't know precisely what the plan was, but one possibility is that Grassley was going to accept the fake electors from various states, notionally giving the election to Trump.
Another is that Grassley was going to lie that there were real disputes about the election results in some states and throw out those electors. Then nobody would win a majority of electors and the presidential election would be thrown to the House where, because of rules, Trump would win.
Another is that Grassley was just not going to finish the certification within the statutory deadline and say that this threw the pres and vp elections to the House and Senate respectively, where Trump and Pence would win.
All of these required Grassley to be in charge doing Trump's bullshit because Pence was apparently unwilling to do so, weird as it is that he'd have even that much of a spinelike substance. None of these work if Pence just shows up and presides over a normal-ish certification.
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 11:19 AM on July 15, 2022 [18 favorites]
That would have been Grassley. Pence wasn't willing to do Trump's bullshit in this case. Grassley, by all accounts, was.
What has to happen to Pence?
He just needs to be elsewhere.
Why can't Pence certify from afar?
Pence doesn't certify. The House and Senate certify. Pence is the presiding officer. If he's not there, Grassley presides.
Couldn't they certify the next day?
Sure, if they were just honestly reacting to a riot. But this was a plan. We don't know precisely what the plan was, but one possibility is that Grassley was going to accept the fake electors from various states, notionally giving the election to Trump.
Another is that Grassley was going to lie that there were real disputes about the election results in some states and throw out those electors. Then nobody would win a majority of electors and the presidential election would be thrown to the House where, because of rules, Trump would win.
Another is that Grassley was just not going to finish the certification within the statutory deadline and say that this threw the pres and vp elections to the House and Senate respectively, where Trump and Pence would win.
All of these required Grassley to be in charge doing Trump's bullshit because Pence was apparently unwilling to do so, weird as it is that he'd have even that much of a spinelike substance. None of these work if Pence just shows up and presides over a normal-ish certification.
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 11:19 AM on July 15, 2022 [18 favorites]
It is extremely weird to me to reflect that Mike Pence, garbage human and moral monster, did in fact sort of save the republic.To go back to the Dungeons and Dragons alignment metaphor that I used in the last thread: these are Lawful Evil people who chose to finally oppose Trump not because he was too Evil, but because he was Chaotic.
The J6 hearings are very much a Lawful Neutral set of proceedings.
posted by bl1nk at 11:30 AM on July 15, 2022 [20 favorites]
There's a lengthy excerpt at the Washington Post from I Alone Can Fix It that details the events of January 6th, including the point when Pence refused to get in the car, and the reactions of Speaker Pelosi, Senator Schumer, and Senator McConnell after they'd been moved to Fort McNair for safety.
posted by kristi at 12:47 PM on July 15, 2022 [26 favorites]
At 2:26, after a team of agents scouted a safe path to ensure the Pences would not encounter trouble, Giebels and the rest of Pence’s detail guided them down a staircase to a secure subterranean area that rioters couldn’t reach, where the vice president’s armored limousine awaited. Giebels asked Pence to get in one of the vehicles. “We can hold here,” he said.More to the point:
“I’m not getting in the car, Tim,” Pence replied. “I trust you, Tim, but you’re not driving the car. If I get in that vehicle, you guys are taking off. I’m not getting in the car.”
As the sun began to go down over the city, the Capitol still was not secure.For everyone who was trying to fulfill their constitutional duty that day, it was essential to be present in the Capitol itself and to complete the certification that day.
At 4:39 p.m., Miller gave Meadows an update on the status of removing protesters from the complex. McConnell joined the call at different points and sounded furious.
“I want it clear,” the Senate majority leader demanded. “I want it cleared out now. The Senate needs to get its business done.”
He added: “We’re going back in session at 8 o’clock in prime time. If you haven’t secured the entire area, you have to secure the two chambers, because we’re going to go back on the air in prime time and let the American people know that this insurrection has failed.”
Pelosi also insisted that the House return to session that evening. At one point, defense officials suggested to her they transport House members by bus to Fort McNair and hold their session there, because it could more easily be secured than the Capitol.
“No, you’re not,” Pelosi said. “We’re going back to the Capitol. You just tell us how long it will take to get rid of these people. We’re coming back to the Capitol.”
Pence agreed. He, too, was adamant that the Senate and the House finish their work that evening.
“We need to get back tonight,” he said on a call with congressional leaders and defense and security officials. “We can’t let the world see that our process of confirming the next president can be delayed.”
posted by kristi at 12:47 PM on July 15, 2022 [26 favorites]
It appears to me that McConnell didn't want Trump to come into power via coup. Presumably he had loads of time before the 6th to game out for himself whether a Trump via coup would be beneficial to McConnell because it was fairly clear something like that was going to happen.
I assume his reaction that night was the result of his having decided before that day that he didn't want a successful Trump coup. Or maybe he just rolled the dice and figured the coup would fail and did a little pre-emptive clean up on aisle 6 for his own reputation?
I have some genuine questions, because I have a tough time understanding this kind of thinking.
Do his words that day actually point to his deciding a successful coup wasn't good for him? His later denouncement (I think the next day) only shows he believed a failed coup wasn't good for him to support.
How, then, did later refusing to say Trump lost help McConnell? He had time to game that response out, too, so I'd like to understand how the variables, um, varied.
I get that one thing was an outside-the-law violent action and the other was purely procedural and theoretical, so denouncing the coup while supporting the idea that significant election fraud occurred are two related but different things.
I despise assuming everyone is playing 11th level chess and don't want to attribute that when short-sighted political cowardice might be the answer. McConnell gets what he wants so damn often, though, that I think there must be significant forethought or a generally successful strategy for him. I want to understand it. To understand it, I need to understand what it is he actually values before I can attribute meaning or motivation to his actions.
I do hope, though, that I'm never able to fully understand his thinking. Dark, poisonous places that you can never quite get clean of after prolonged contact, I suspect.
posted by tllaya at 1:35 PM on July 15, 2022 [3 favorites]
I assume his reaction that night was the result of his having decided before that day that he didn't want a successful Trump coup. Or maybe he just rolled the dice and figured the coup would fail and did a little pre-emptive clean up on aisle 6 for his own reputation?
I have some genuine questions, because I have a tough time understanding this kind of thinking.
Do his words that day actually point to his deciding a successful coup wasn't good for him? His later denouncement (I think the next day) only shows he believed a failed coup wasn't good for him to support.
How, then, did later refusing to say Trump lost help McConnell? He had time to game that response out, too, so I'd like to understand how the variables, um, varied.
I get that one thing was an outside-the-law violent action and the other was purely procedural and theoretical, so denouncing the coup while supporting the idea that significant election fraud occurred are two related but different things.
I despise assuming everyone is playing 11th level chess and don't want to attribute that when short-sighted political cowardice might be the answer. McConnell gets what he wants so damn often, though, that I think there must be significant forethought or a generally successful strategy for him. I want to understand it. To understand it, I need to understand what it is he actually values before I can attribute meaning or motivation to his actions.
I do hope, though, that I'm never able to fully understand his thinking. Dark, poisonous places that you can never quite get clean of after prolonged contact, I suspect.
posted by tllaya at 1:35 PM on July 15, 2022 [3 favorites]
They just have to wait and they’ll get everything they want, and they know it. Jan 6th wasn’t necessary for anyones plans but Trumps and a few hangers on.
posted by Artw at 1:56 PM on July 15, 2022 [4 favorites]
posted by Artw at 1:56 PM on July 15, 2022 [4 favorites]
If the coup were successful, wouldn't he have gotten everything he wanted even sooner? Was there some reason coup = bad for McConnell, but future Trump presidency still = good for McConnell?
posted by tllaya at 2:24 PM on July 15, 2022
posted by tllaya at 2:24 PM on July 15, 2022
He’d be in an unstable and weird spot that could go any way. Better to ride out the steady fall of the republic than have his name attached to it all blowing up.
posted by Artw at 2:32 PM on July 15, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by Artw at 2:32 PM on July 15, 2022 [2 favorites]
nominal legitimacy.
posted by 20 year lurk at 2:35 PM on July 15, 2022 [4 favorites]
posted by 20 year lurk at 2:35 PM on July 15, 2022 [4 favorites]
I mean, if Pence leaves the Capitol, then whoever's next in line just automatically becomes the decider?
I mean, no. In the sense that they're NOT any kind of decider.
The idea that one person - be it the VP or the President Pro Term on the Senate or whoever - is required to "accept" the results before they're legit is a bit of whacked-out unconstitutional bullshit. Legally, Pence or whoever have all the authority of the envelope-openers and presenters at the Oscars. And that's basically their role, it's a piece of ceremonial pomp where a representative of the current government formally acknowledges that The Congress, as representative of The People, and the National Archives, as the holders of all the important records of the US government, have received the already certified results of the election.
That's one reason everyone with 2 brain cells to rub together - including Pence - in the Trump administration were going "no no nonononono." Even if Pence or Grassley had tried to not certify, it would have immediately gone to the Supreme Court and regardless of the current makeup of the Court, Roberts (and quite possibly Gorsuch and even Kavanaugh) would have said, "NOPE."
The only way the lack of certification from the VP would have had any chance of affecting things would have been if there was such utter chaos that Congress couldn't continue and Trump could have declared some kind of national emergency and stayed in power indefinitely.
Just to drive home the point that the January 6 riot was actually important to the plan to keep Trump in power.
posted by soundguy99 at 2:39 PM on July 15, 2022 [12 favorites]
I mean, no. In the sense that they're NOT any kind of decider.
The idea that one person - be it the VP or the President Pro Term on the Senate or whoever - is required to "accept" the results before they're legit is a bit of whacked-out unconstitutional bullshit. Legally, Pence or whoever have all the authority of the envelope-openers and presenters at the Oscars. And that's basically their role, it's a piece of ceremonial pomp where a representative of the current government formally acknowledges that The Congress, as representative of The People, and the National Archives, as the holders of all the important records of the US government, have received the already certified results of the election.
That's one reason everyone with 2 brain cells to rub together - including Pence - in the Trump administration were going "no no nonononono." Even if Pence or Grassley had tried to not certify, it would have immediately gone to the Supreme Court and regardless of the current makeup of the Court, Roberts (and quite possibly Gorsuch and even Kavanaugh) would have said, "NOPE."
The only way the lack of certification from the VP would have had any chance of affecting things would have been if there was such utter chaos that Congress couldn't continue and Trump could have declared some kind of national emergency and stayed in power indefinitely.
Just to drive home the point that the January 6 riot was actually important to the plan to keep Trump in power.
posted by soundguy99 at 2:39 PM on July 15, 2022 [12 favorites]
Was there some reason coup = bad for McConnell, but future Trump presidency still = good for McConnell?
Coup = Trump as dictator in fact if not in name, meaning he no longer cares what the Senate does, meaning McConnell no longer has any real power.
Failed coup = McConnell hopes Trump drifts off into the sunset of Mar-a-Lago to play golf and whine and in 2024 the US elects DeSantis or Rubio or Brian Kemp or some other plausibly "reasonable" Republican so they can all go back to business as usual of stripping the assets & rights of America and the rest of the world without a bunch of people getting mad.
posted by soundguy99 at 2:47 PM on July 15, 2022 [11 favorites]
Coup = Trump as dictator in fact if not in name, meaning he no longer cares what the Senate does, meaning McConnell no longer has any real power.
Failed coup = McConnell hopes Trump drifts off into the sunset of Mar-a-Lago to play golf and whine and in 2024 the US elects DeSantis or Rubio or Brian Kemp or some other plausibly "reasonable" Republican so they can all go back to business as usual of stripping the assets & rights of America and the rest of the world without a bunch of people getting mad.
posted by soundguy99 at 2:47 PM on July 15, 2022 [11 favorites]
Following up on points about the Department of Justice, charges, and convictions:
DOJ wants the first US Capitol rioter convicted by jury to serve 15 years (CNN)
DOJ wants the first US Capitol rioter convicted by jury to serve 15 years (CNN)
In a court filing Friday, the prosecutors said Guy Reffitt, a Texas father and member of the right-wing militia the Three Percenters, should spend significant time in jail because he brought two guns to Washington, DC, guided the mob forward and planned for more violence after January 6, 2021.posted by kristi at 5:23 PM on July 15, 2022 [11 favorites]
...
While federal guidelines recommend Reffitt spend up to 11 years in prison, prosecutors asked the judge to go over those guidelines, citing his aim to overthrow the government.
Prosecutors noted that Reffitt specifically targeted lawmakers, saying in a recording on January 6: “I just want to see Pelosi’s head hit every f**king stair on the way out. … And (Republican leader) Mitch McConnell too.”
After the riot, Reffitt doubled down on his violent threats, calling January 6 “the preface of the book” and writing a “manifesto” while in jail suggesting that more was to come, according to prosecutors. Reffitt was also convicted of obstructing justice for threatening his daughter and son should they turn him in to the FBI.
It appears to me that McConnell didn't want Trump to come into power via coup.
I think McConnell didn't think all Trump's talk ahead of the failed coup would lead to anything but an especially exuberant Trump Rally. The events of the 6th surprised him because wealth and position neuter any possible empathy or understanding he has for the regular people and being whisked off to Fort McNair scared the crap out of him.
posted by Mitheral at 5:52 PM on July 15, 2022 [6 favorites]
I think McConnell didn't think all Trump's talk ahead of the failed coup would lead to anything but an especially exuberant Trump Rally. The events of the 6th surprised him because wealth and position neuter any possible empathy or understanding he has for the regular people and being whisked off to Fort McNair scared the crap out of him.
posted by Mitheral at 5:52 PM on July 15, 2022 [6 favorites]
“The plan has glaring holes” not really a reason to exclude it as a possibility with this lot. “The plan is completely stupid” not exactly a reason to think it might not work with them either.
"Forget the myths the media's created about the White House.
The truth is, these are not very bright guys, and things got out of hand."
posted by kirkaracha at 6:43 PM on July 15, 2022 [15 favorites]
"Forget the myths the media's created about the White House.
The truth is, these are not very bright guys, and things got out of hand."
posted by kirkaracha at 6:43 PM on July 15, 2022 [15 favorites]
A short thread from Peter Strzok really puts the 12/18 meeting in context:
Take a moment to think about the staggering counterintelligence issues in the crazy Dec 18, 2020 WH meeting.posted by bcd at 10:17 AM on July 16, 2022 [32 favorites]
In the Oval Office, people advocated Trump illegitimately hold on to power, including using the military to seize voting machines.
That group included:So in this tiny meeting in the Oval Office where options to upend US democracy were advanced to the President of the United States, there were not one, not two, but three people directly linked to sanctioned and convicted agents of the Russian government.
- Mike Flynn, who who was paid by an organ of Russian state media to travel to Moscow to attend a dinner where he was seated next to Putin. Flynn later plead guilty to lying to the FBI about conversations he had with the Russian Ambassador about election interference.
- Patrick Byrne, one of several men once in an intimate relationship with convicted Russian agent Marina Butina.
Byrne gave money to Butina after her return to Russia, where she ran for the Duma, hounded Navalny, and supported the invasion of Ukraine.- Rudy Giuliani, who repeatedly met with and took info from sanctioned Russian agents like Andrii Derkach, despite USIC warnings to the White House in 2019 that Trump’s personal lawyer “was the target of an influence operation by Russian intelligence”
While I doubt Russia planned it, their efforts to gain access to Trump’s inner sanctum succeeded beyond their wildest dreams. And it demonstrates just how successful seemingly amateurish intelligence activity can be.
Per CNN:
Matthew Pottinger, who served on former President Donald Trump's National Security Council before resigning in the immediate aftermath of January 6, 2021, will testify publicly at Thursday's prime-time hearing held by the House select committee investigating the US Capitol attack, according to multiple sources familiar with the plans.posted by bcd at 7:11 AM on July 19, 2022 [4 favorites]
Pottinger is slated to appear alongside former Trump White House aide Sarah Matthews.
CNN previously reported that Matthews, who served as deputy press secretary in the Trump White House until resigning shortly after January 6, 2021, was expected to testify publicly. When she resigned, Matthews said she was honored to serve in Trump's administration but "was deeply disturbed by what I saw." She said at the time, "Our nation needs a peaceful transfer of power."
This is unfortunate, as he's a powerful speaker, but good that they aren't delaying. From Bennie Thompson:
I tested positive for COVID-19 yesterday, and I am experiencing mild symptoms. Gratefully, I am fully vaccinated and boosted.And from the committee:
I encourage each person in America to get vaccinated and continue to follow the guidelines to remain safe.
While Chairman Thompson is disappointed with his COVID diagnosis, he has instructed the Select Committee to proceed with Thursday evening’s hearing. Committee members and staff wish the Chairman a speedy recovery.posted by bcd at 8:54 AM on July 19, 2022 [8 favorites]
There's not a lot of new news about the missing deleted Secret Service texts, but this line from yesterday's NYT article ("Secret Service Says Some Missing Jan. 6 Texts Are Unlikely to Be Recovered") caught my eye (emph. added):losing destroying all of those texts could be chalked up to a big ol' whoopsie-doodle. Like, aw shucks, it just plain slipped our mind while we were doing some routine maintenance even though Congress specifically asked for the phone records. As hard as it is to swallow this story, it has at least the veneer of something that'd have to be disproved. However, not even doing an after-action report after Jan. 6? That's on a whole other level. They could have wrote up a perfunctory and/or ass-covering account. But to not even bother? Come on now.
Also, does anyone else think it's weird that we're only hearing about theselost erased texts now, 16+ months after the fact?
posted by mhum at 10:17 AM on July 20, 2022 [7 favorites]
The Homeland Security Department’s inspector general told Congress last week that the phone records were expunged during a device replacement program — even after the government watchdog had requested them. The disclosure prompted the House select committee on late Friday to subpoena the Secret Service for the phone records, as well as any after-action reviews completed by the agency.I mean,
But the Secret Service did not do its own review of its performance during the period around Jan. 6, a decision that is also being scrutinized by the Homeland Security Department’s inspector general as a part of a broad review of the agency’s decisions at that time, according to people familiar with the matter. Mr. Guglielmi confirmed that the agency did not conduct its own after-action review, but said the agency was complying with reviews by congressional committees and the inspector general.
Also, does anyone else think it's weird that we're only hearing about these
posted by mhum at 10:17 AM on July 20, 2022 [7 favorites]
A bipartisan group of 16 senators (led by Susan Collins and Joe Manchin, includes mostly moderates from both parties plus Lindsey Graham) just introduced the Electoral Count Reform and Presidential Transition Act, which frankly doesn't go far enough, but it's not nothing.
posted by box at 10:31 AM on July 20, 2022 [6 favorites]
posted by box at 10:31 AM on July 20, 2022 [6 favorites]
Thank God. I have been really worried that fixing the Electoral Count Act was going to get lost in the shuffle. The fact that this still appears to be moving forward -- and in a bipartisan (and Manchin-approved!) manner -- is extremely heartening.
posted by Artifice_Eternity at 2:04 PM on July 20, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by Artifice_Eternity at 2:04 PM on July 20, 2022 [1 favorite]
Republicans are probably fine with it as it prevents whatever the coup was trying to do but leaves the states a free hand in electoral fuckery up to that point.
posted by Artw at 2:53 PM on July 20, 2022
posted by Artw at 2:53 PM on July 20, 2022
That they’ve decided to put this one at 8:00 PM gives it a “season finale” feel.
posted by wabbittwax at 4:46 PM on July 21, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by wabbittwax at 4:46 PM on July 21, 2022 [2 favorites]
Yes. And Raskin did promise last week that this hearing would be, "a profound moment of reckoning for America." Nervous making all around.
posted by bcd at 4:55 PM on July 21, 2022
posted by bcd at 4:55 PM on July 21, 2022
And off we go, with Cheney in the center chair, but Thompson connecting in via video.
posted by bcd at 5:02 PM on July 21, 2022
posted by bcd at 5:02 PM on July 21, 2022
Kinzinger and Luria will be the questioners tonight - but it sounds like tonight is more the cliffhanger before the mid-season break. They will be reconvening and continuing the investigation in September. *groan* Not like a coup is worth working through holidays.
posted by bcd at 5:08 PM on July 21, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by bcd at 5:08 PM on July 21, 2022 [2 favorites]
Luria finally mentioned the pipebombs. The fact that we haven't had any arrests on that has continued to feel like a huge gaping hole.
posted by bcd at 5:18 PM on July 21, 2022 [5 favorites]
posted by bcd at 5:18 PM on July 21, 2022 [5 favorites]
They have two more witnesses backing up Cassidy Hutchinson’s account about Trump being irate about the Secret Service not driving him to the Capitol. A DC cop who is testifying publicly and another White House employee "with national security responsibilities" whose identity is being concealed to protect them.
Some SS members have retained new private counsel and they expect to have testimony from them in the future. That might help correct the gap of the deleted text messages. (Which still needs criminal prosecution.)
The records are all conveniently blank about what Trump was up to in the dining room watching Fox as the attack happened.
posted by bcd at 5:36 PM on July 21, 2022 [1 favorite]
Some SS members have retained new private counsel and they expect to have testimony from them in the future. That might help correct the gap of the deleted text messages. (Which still needs criminal prosecution.)
The records are all conveniently blank about what Trump was up to in the dining room watching Fox as the attack happened.
posted by bcd at 5:36 PM on July 21, 2022 [1 favorite]
Treason finale. Apologies for my new thread; missed this one here.
posted by Ahmad Khani at 5:46 PM on July 21, 2022 [10 favorites]
posted by Ahmad Khani at 5:46 PM on July 21, 2022 [10 favorites]
Despite the blank call logs and presidential diary, they have evidence that one of the things Trump did during the gap was call senators and try and lobby them to delay the count.
They then focus on how Cippoline and others repeatedly tried to push Trump to call off the attackers. This is where the conversation about the Hang Pence chant and Trump thinking it was warranted fits into the overall timeline.
posted by bcd at 5:47 PM on July 21, 2022
They then focus on how Cippoline and others repeatedly tried to push Trump to call off the attackers. This is where the conversation about the Hang Pence chant and Trump thinking it was warranted fits into the overall timeline.
posted by bcd at 5:47 PM on July 21, 2022
From the Guardian's live coverage of the hearings:
But is their evidence changing Americans’ views of Trump? A Reuters/Ipsos poll released just this afternoon indicates it might be. Forty percent of Republicans say Trump was at least partly to blame for the attack, an increase of about seven percentage points from before the hearings. The proportion of Republicans who think Trump shouldn’t stand for office again also increased, to 32 percent from 26 percent in early June.posted by kristi at 5:51 PM on July 21, 2022 [10 favorites]
Luria finally mentioned the pipebombs
Well past time to subpoena MTG over her involvement in and support for the attack, before, during and after — except she'd karen on about being a victim. I'd believe the conspiracy theories that she's the perp, except that the camera footage shows the bomber voluntarily wearing a mask without a Trump logo on it.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 5:58 PM on July 21, 2022 [1 favorite]
Well past time to subpoena MTG over her involvement in and support for the attack, before, during and after — except she'd karen on about being a victim. I'd believe the conspiracy theories that she's the perp, except that the camera footage shows the bomber voluntarily wearing a mask without a Trump logo on it.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 5:58 PM on July 21, 2022 [1 favorite]
Testimony that the VP's SS detail were worried about their own lives, to the point of calling to say good bye to family, etc. This is all new to me and certainly comes across very powerfully.
posted by bcd at 5:59 PM on July 21, 2022 [12 favorites]
posted by bcd at 5:59 PM on July 21, 2022 [12 favorites]
It's always fascinating to me to see where people draw the line about what they find acceptable and what they don't.
The biggest crime committed by Trump is that he's made horrible people seem reasonable by comparison, and made me feel sympathy for people who deserve none.
posted by phunniemee at 6:06 PM on July 21, 2022 [12 favorites]
The biggest crime committed by Trump is that he's made horrible people seem reasonable by comparison, and made me feel sympathy for people who deserve none.
posted by phunniemee at 6:06 PM on July 21, 2022 [12 favorites]
As of the recess, I must admit I'm a bit disappointed with their strategy on this one. Not that anything we've seen was bad, just that they've done better and if you are going to choose one to air in prime time, I'm not seeing how this was it.
Here's hoping it ends better than it started.
posted by bcd at 6:18 PM on July 21, 2022 [1 favorite]
Here's hoping it ends better than it started.
posted by bcd at 6:18 PM on July 21, 2022 [1 favorite]
They will be reconvening and continuing the investigation in September. *groan* Not like a coup is worth working through holidays.
posted by bcd at 5:08 PM
What I understood was that the plan was to go over the evidence they've received recently and resume hearings (it was clear whether this was public or interviews) in September.
posted by bluesky43 at 6:24 PM on July 21, 2022 [6 favorites]
posted by bcd at 5:08 PM
What I understood was that the plan was to go over the evidence they've received recently and resume hearings (it was clear whether this was public or interviews) in September.
posted by bluesky43 at 6:24 PM on July 21, 2022 [6 favorites]
Agreed phunniemee so with respect I thought of this.
"The biggest crime committed by T̶r̶u̶m̶p̶ Hamilton is that he's made horrible people seem reasonable by comparison, and made me feel sympathy for people who deserve none."
-John Adams. (fictional)
posted by clavdivs at 6:26 PM on July 21, 2022 [1 favorite]
"The biggest crime committed by T̶r̶u̶m̶p̶ Hamilton is that he's made horrible people seem reasonable by comparison, and made me feel sympathy for people who deserve none."
-John Adams. (fictional)
posted by clavdivs at 6:26 PM on July 21, 2022 [1 favorite]
Also the slowmo of Josh Hawley was very satisfying.
posted by bluesky43 at 6:26 PM on July 21, 2022 [9 favorites]
posted by bluesky43 at 6:26 PM on July 21, 2022 [9 favorites]
Hahaaaaa. One of Don Jr's tweets about "going to the mattresses" was cribbed from The Godfather. Because of course.
posted by mochapickle at 6:28 PM on July 21, 2022 [3 favorites]
posted by mochapickle at 6:28 PM on July 21, 2022 [3 favorites]
I place money bets on Don Jr's mattresses reference coming secondhand from the movie You've Got Mail.
posted by phunniemee at 6:28 PM on July 21, 2022 [7 favorites]
posted by phunniemee at 6:28 PM on July 21, 2022 [7 favorites]
Post recess we get started with the people outside the White House to try to pressure Trump to stop the attackers. The expected list: Trump spawn, Fox talking heads, the only sorts of people who might have a chance of influencing him. Telling of course, that they didn't pressure him publicly, only privately, texting Meadows, etc.
posted by bcd at 6:33 PM on July 21, 2022
posted by bcd at 6:33 PM on July 21, 2022
Hearing the direct reaction from the attackers, "haha, he didn't say anything about not hurting the congress people, just the capitol police", etc. That was a very strong point. That whole audio needs to be split out and posted as a separate piece.
posted by bcd at 6:39 PM on July 21, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by bcd at 6:39 PM on July 21, 2022 [2 favorites]
Hearing it repeated like that, the president saying, Don't hurt the capitol police, they are on our side, it gives me pause. Did he mean to assure the insurgents that they had sympathizers in place among the capitol police organization itself?
posted by mochapickle at 6:45 PM on July 21, 2022 [9 favorites]
posted by mochapickle at 6:45 PM on July 21, 2022 [9 favorites]
my God, the Toadies who clamor for Trump to call it off is stunning. I wonder how powerless they felt, what kind of powerlessness.it's like they all help cut down a tree but said oh no we're not going to make a club out of it.
at the climax of a novel I once wrote set in the Cold War, the antagonist is speaking to the protagonist and says this about a situation that unfolds without any objection until it goes wrong.
"You wanted it, Jim, you got 'em back into the box and look what it cost..."
"The cost is always the bottom line iden it, blood and treasure', just sweep polity against a wall. Getting the devil back into the box is not the goal, Nathan, the trick is to get the devil into the box without his knowing it."
posted by clavdivs at 6:46 PM on July 21, 2022
at the climax of a novel I once wrote set in the Cold War, the antagonist is speaking to the protagonist and says this about a situation that unfolds without any objection until it goes wrong.
"You wanted it, Jim, you got 'em back into the box and look what it cost..."
"The cost is always the bottom line iden it, blood and treasure', just sweep polity against a wall. Getting the devil back into the box is not the goal, Nathan, the trick is to get the devil into the box without his knowing it."
posted by clavdivs at 6:46 PM on July 21, 2022
Did he mean to assure the insurgents that they had sympathizers in place among the capitol police organization itself?
They’d be entirely unique among US police forces if they didn’t.
posted by Artw at 6:48 PM on July 21, 2022 [4 favorites]
They’d be entirely unique among US police forces if they didn’t.
posted by Artw at 6:48 PM on July 21, 2022 [4 favorites]
Josh Hawley running away to a variety of soundtracks
posted by LooseFilter at 6:48 PM on July 21, 2022 [16 favorites]
posted by LooseFilter at 6:48 PM on July 21, 2022 [16 favorites]
Also, did it take a live Congressional committee hearing to give America its first uncensored, prime-time “motherfucker”?
(Here for the important stuff…)
posted by LooseFilter at 6:50 PM on July 21, 2022 [10 favorites]
(Here for the important stuff…)
posted by LooseFilter at 6:50 PM on July 21, 2022 [10 favorites]
While I doubt Russia planned it
Highly unlikely; financing home-grown agents of discord has always been more Russia's style, at least where the West is concerned. Fun fact: the KGB bankrolled JFK conspiracy theorist Mark Lane on the view that fomenting belief in conspiracy theories would erode Americans' trust in their government (that particular operation was almost certainly far more successful than they could've possibly dreamed...possibly their most successful, until 2016, in hindsight).
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 6:53 PM on July 21, 2022
Highly unlikely; financing home-grown agents of discord has always been more Russia's style, at least where the West is concerned. Fun fact: the KGB bankrolled JFK conspiracy theorist Mark Lane on the view that fomenting belief in conspiracy theories would erode Americans' trust in their government (that particular operation was almost certainly far more successful than they could've possibly dreamed...possibly their most successful, until 2016, in hindsight).
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 6:53 PM on July 21, 2022
Also, did it take a live Congressional committee hearing to give America its first uncensored, prime-time “motherfucker”?
Every time they roll one of those clips they give their little "we warn you about the strong language". I mean, we are talking about an attempt to bring down the government and the swears are what need warnings??
But yes, I think it might have.
posted by bcd at 6:54 PM on July 21, 2022 [3 favorites]
Every time they roll one of those clips they give their little "we warn you about the strong language". I mean, we are talking about an attempt to bring down the government and the swears are what need warnings??
But yes, I think it might have.
posted by bcd at 6:54 PM on July 21, 2022 [3 favorites]
I find all of these statements condemning the violence by republican congresspeople nauseating.
posted by bluesky43 at 7:07 PM on July 21, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by bluesky43 at 7:07 PM on July 21, 2022 [2 favorites]
Every one of these shitheels is complicit. It's only a matter of degree.
posted by phunniemee at 7:10 PM on July 21, 2022 [3 favorites]
posted by phunniemee at 7:10 PM on July 21, 2022 [3 favorites]
They’d be entirely unique among US police forces if they didn’t.
Well, I mean, not just sympathizers but designated active agents. And I realize that's kind of a narrow gap, considering how many magaheads considered themselves to be sleeper agents.
posted by mochapickle at 7:11 PM on July 21, 2022 [1 favorite]
Well, I mean, not just sympathizers but designated active agents. And I realize that's kind of a narrow gap, considering how many magaheads considered themselves to be sleeper agents.
posted by mochapickle at 7:11 PM on July 21, 2022 [1 favorite]
In a battle between Lawful Evil and Chaotic Evil, it sure isn't Good that's going to win. Pottinger is sure showing his Lawful Evil bent at this point.
posted by bcd at 7:15 PM on July 21, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by bcd at 7:15 PM on July 21, 2022 [1 favorite]
y e s t e r d a y
posted by phunniemee at 7:19 PM on July 21, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by phunniemee at 7:19 PM on July 21, 2022 [1 favorite]
At least there's some tasty schadenfreude watching his incompetence recording the second video. You know the fact that they've aired that publicly is going to make him furious.
posted by bcd at 7:20 PM on July 21, 2022 [4 favorites]
posted by bcd at 7:20 PM on July 21, 2022 [4 favorites]
Bored Clark Kent in the background there is the vibe.
Where's my prime time action??
posted by phunniemee at 7:22 PM on July 21, 2022 [3 favorites]
Where's my prime time action??
posted by phunniemee at 7:22 PM on July 21, 2022 [3 favorites]
Kinzinger: “Donald Trump’s conduct on Jan. 6 was a supreme violation of his oath of office and a complete dereliction of his duty to our nation. It is a stain on our history. It is a dishonor to all those who have sacrificed and died in the service of our democracy.” (NYT)
I don't agree with a single political view of Kinzinger but his was a very powerful final statement delivered with great conviction.
posted by bluesky43 at 7:33 PM on July 21, 2022 [5 favorites]
I don't agree with a single political view of Kinzinger but his was a very powerful final statement delivered with great conviction.
posted by bluesky43 at 7:33 PM on July 21, 2022 [5 favorites]
Thompson's closing does seem to confirm bluesky43's earlier read that they will still be working over August, just no more public hearings till September. That's good to hear.
posted by bcd at 7:37 PM on July 21, 2022
posted by bcd at 7:37 PM on July 21, 2022
The point that he wouldn't acknowledge the dead cop, because then he'd be implicitly faulting the mob is consistent with the rest of the Trump presidency and campaigns. Every time time he was given the option to reject or criticize white supremacists or violent fanatics he wouldn't, because they make up a large portion of his base. He wouldn't disavow the Proud Boys, he told them to stand back and stand by, he said that there were good people on both sides of Charlottesville, he couldn't remember knowing who David Duke even was so that he wouldn't have to say that maybe the Klan was bad.
posted by ActingTheGoat at 7:37 PM on July 21, 2022 [9 favorites]
posted by ActingTheGoat at 7:37 PM on July 21, 2022 [9 favorites]
"Do you really think Bill Barr is such a delicate flower that he'd wilt under cross examination?" That legit made me laugh.
posted by bcd at 7:39 PM on July 21, 2022 [7 favorites]
posted by bcd at 7:39 PM on July 21, 2022 [7 favorites]
Banging the premeditation drum as a closing is a great note.
Time for dinner for me. Thanks all.
posted by bcd at 7:41 PM on July 21, 2022 [2 favorites]
Time for dinner for me. Thanks all.
posted by bcd at 7:41 PM on July 21, 2022 [2 favorites]
Liz has me on an emotional rollercoaster in her closing. We all knew the election was sound! DJT manipulated his followers by appealing to their deep sense of patriotism and love for country. And now I quote the great Margaret Thatcher!
posted by mochapickle at 7:47 PM on July 21, 2022 [10 favorites]
posted by mochapickle at 7:47 PM on July 21, 2022 [10 favorites]
Highly unlikely; financing home-grown agents of discord has always been more Russia's style
It's not a conspiracy, it's just business.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 7:49 PM on July 21, 2022
It's not a conspiracy, it's just business.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 7:49 PM on July 21, 2022
Those closing statements from Cheney and Kinzinger were a perfectly clear argument directly aimed at republicans using their own "shining city on a hill" bullshit - hopefully at least a few of them were watching.
posted by Dr. Christ at 7:54 PM on July 21, 2022 [10 favorites]
posted by Dr. Christ at 7:54 PM on July 21, 2022 [10 favorites]
Leave the gun. Take the conspiracytooverthrowtheunitedstatesgovernmentbyviolentmeansannoli.
posted by kirkaracha at 9:17 PM on July 21, 2022
posted by kirkaracha at 9:17 PM on July 21, 2022
Someone on Twitter has set the video clip of Josh Hawley running away from the J6 mob he had helped incite to various thematically appropriate songs.
posted by orange swan at 5:47 AM on July 22, 2022 [4 favorites]
posted by orange swan at 5:47 AM on July 22, 2022 [4 favorites]
Since grifters know no shame, Josh Hawley'assOutaThere is using this as a fundraising opportunity.
posted by scruss at 9:36 AM on July 22, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by scruss at 9:36 AM on July 22, 2022 [1 favorite]
Fortunately meme-makers are there to correct the record.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 12:05 PM on July 22, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 12:05 PM on July 22, 2022 [1 favorite]
A confirmation of something that stuck.out to me last night:
How the January 6 committee used Fox News against Donald Trump
posted by y2karl at 12:38 PM on July 22, 2022 [6 favorites]
How the January 6 committee used Fox News against Donald Trump
posted by y2karl at 12:38 PM on July 22, 2022 [6 favorites]
Steve Bannon has been convicted of two counts of contempt of Congress after defying subpoenas from the January 6th committee and refusing to appear or provide records, for which he will serve a minimum of 30 days to a maximum of two years in jail.
posted by orange swan at 12:45 PM on July 22, 2022 [11 favorites]
posted by orange swan at 12:45 PM on July 22, 2022 [11 favorites]
Sorry, I made a mistake in my above comment. Maximum sentence is *one* year, not two.
posted by orange swan at 12:57 PM on July 22, 2022
posted by orange swan at 12:57 PM on July 22, 2022
I think those sentences are per count, though, and if so it's accurate to say he could be sentenced to up to two years. Or as little as 30 days, if the sentences run concurrently. It's up to the judge, but the judge did not sound amused by his antics.
posted by Gelatin at 1:14 PM on July 22, 2022 [3 favorites]
posted by Gelatin at 1:14 PM on July 22, 2022 [3 favorites]
if so they should keep subpoenaing him repeatedly until either he gives in or nobody ever has to look at him again
posted by rifflesby at 1:25 PM on July 22, 2022 [4 favorites]
posted by rifflesby at 1:25 PM on July 22, 2022 [4 favorites]
can't wait to see him do the perp walk wearing 3 orange jumpsuits lmao
posted by ryanrs at 1:32 PM on July 22, 2022 [9 favorites]
posted by ryanrs at 1:32 PM on July 22, 2022 [9 favorites]
Yeah, the sentencing range is from two 30-day terms served concurrently, to two one-year terms served consecutively.
posted by rhizome at 1:45 PM on July 22, 2022
posted by rhizome at 1:45 PM on July 22, 2022
Does anyone know if Bannon wriggled out of the conspiracy to commit wire fraud & conspiracy to commit money laundering charges from 2 years ago? Each of those charges carry a maximum penalty of 20 years. (This involved the "We Build The Wall" fundraising scam, and Bannon was arrested on superyacht, by post office cops.)
posted by Iris Gambol at 1:53 PM on July 22, 2022
posted by Iris Gambol at 1:53 PM on July 22, 2022
Bannon got pardoned (gag) for the "We Build the Wall" scam, but two other Build the Wall scammers pleaded guilty, and Manhattan prosecutors may charge Bannon later.
posted by kristi at 2:11 PM on July 22, 2022 [4 favorites]
posted by kristi at 2:11 PM on July 22, 2022 [4 favorites]
Steve Bannon has been convicted of two counts of contempt of Congress...for which he will serve a minimum of 30 days to a maximum of two years in jail.
If you have an erection lasting more than four hours, you may need emergency care.
posted by kirkaracha at 6:30 PM on July 22, 2022 [3 favorites]
If you have an erection lasting more than four hours, you may need emergency care.
posted by kirkaracha at 6:30 PM on July 22, 2022 [3 favorites]
Y'all do know that the whole "not presenting a defense" thing was a setup for the appeal, right?
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 8:23 PM on July 22, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 8:23 PM on July 22, 2022 [1 favorite]
Y'all do know that the whole "not presenting a defense" thing was a setup for the appeal, right?
How would that work? Serious question, the US system baffles me.
posted by mumimor at 11:18 PM on July 22, 2022 [3 favorites]
How would that work? Serious question, the US system baffles me.
posted by mumimor at 11:18 PM on July 22, 2022 [3 favorites]
How would that work? Serious question, the US system baffles me.
Well, one crazy strategy would be to appeal to the Supreme Court and ask them to rule that executive privilege somehow applies, and that nobody has to talk to Congress if they don't want to.
posted by pwnguin at 12:04 AM on July 23, 2022
Well, one crazy strategy would be to appeal to the Supreme Court and ask them to rule that executive privilege somehow applies, and that nobody has to talk to Congress if they don't want to.
posted by pwnguin at 12:04 AM on July 23, 2022
mumimor, the judge who oversaw the case was forced to exclude stuff that Bannon planned to use for his defense. I don’t know all the details but here is an example of why Bannon’s team is upbeat about an appeal: Bannon's attorney David Schoen vowed to appeal. "This is (a) bulletproof appeal," Schoen told reporters. "Have you ever in another case seen a judge say six times in a case that he thinks the standard for willfulness is wrong? He's saying it doesn't comport with modern jurisprudence, he said it doesn't comport with the standard definition, but he is saying his hands were bound by a 1961 decision. You will see this case reversed on appeal."
posted by Bella Donna at 2:34 AM on July 23, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by Bella Donna at 2:34 AM on July 23, 2022 [1 favorite]
If I had a nickel for every lawyer who’s ever said they had a bulletproof appeal and gave you a dollar for every one of them who ended up with an appeal full of bullet holes, I would not be broke.
posted by Etrigan at 5:32 AM on July 23, 2022 [3 favorites]
posted by Etrigan at 5:32 AM on July 23, 2022 [3 favorites]
My brother in Christ you got that backwards? You're gonna be losing $0.95 on all the shitty appeals that get laughed out of court.
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 7:36 AM on July 23, 2022 [7 favorites]
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 7:36 AM on July 23, 2022 [7 favorites]
>> Y'all do know that the whole "not presenting a defense" thing was a setup for the appeal, right?
>
>How would that work? Serious question, the US system baffles me.
The judge had summarily ruled out a large number of defenses that Bannon's lawyers wanted to use. Their argument at appeal will most likely be that the judge was biased and/or overstepped the bounds of his judicial discretion.
Appeals court: "Well if you thought the trial was inherently unfair why did you continue to participate?"
Lawyers: "We didn't."
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 8:39 AM on July 23, 2022 [1 favorite]
>
>How would that work? Serious question, the US system baffles me.
The judge had summarily ruled out a large number of defenses that Bannon's lawyers wanted to use. Their argument at appeal will most likely be that the judge was biased and/or overstepped the bounds of his judicial discretion.
Appeals court: "Well if you thought the trial was inherently unfair why did you continue to participate?"
Lawyers: "We didn't."
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 8:39 AM on July 23, 2022 [1 favorite]
all my riot experience dates from before cell phones, but i cannot imagine stopping mid-riot to read a tweet.
posted by 20 year lurk at 12:40 PM on July 23, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by 20 year lurk at 12:40 PM on July 23, 2022 [2 favorites]
I wouldn't have thought to video myself committing crimes either, but times change.
posted by InfidelZombie at 12:49 PM on July 23, 2022 [8 favorites]
posted by InfidelZombie at 12:49 PM on July 23, 2022 [8 favorites]
How would that work? Serious question, the US system baffles me.
Their position is that the trial court's restriction of the defense they could put on is prejudicial to the point of deprivation of due process. Thus, they are refusing to put on a defense under those restrictions to avoid acquiescing in the court's ruling.
From their perspective, that is preserving the Court's error for appeal. (It also handily lets Bannon not pay for all that work, and his attorneys not do it, while trumpeting the miscarriage of justice.) However, it could just as easily work out the other way if a reviewing appellate court decides the error would have been preserved by the pretrial motion process and making further objections at trial, if required; in which case the refusal to put on a defense will likely operate as a forfeit (in the sporting sense, provided the prosecution meets its basic burdens of proof in its own case-in-chief).
In other words....'bold move, Bannon, we'll see if it pays off for him...'
Definitely cheaper if, behind the curtain, they expect to lose anyway; in which case the do-nothing-then-appeal routine may really be about reaching a compromise after trial.
posted by snuffleupagus at 4:21 PM on July 23, 2022 [1 favorite]
Their position is that the trial court's restriction of the defense they could put on is prejudicial to the point of deprivation of due process. Thus, they are refusing to put on a defense under those restrictions to avoid acquiescing in the court's ruling.
From their perspective, that is preserving the Court's error for appeal. (It also handily lets Bannon not pay for all that work, and his attorneys not do it, while trumpeting the miscarriage of justice.) However, it could just as easily work out the other way if a reviewing appellate court decides the error would have been preserved by the pretrial motion process and making further objections at trial, if required; in which case the refusal to put on a defense will likely operate as a forfeit (in the sporting sense, provided the prosecution meets its basic burdens of proof in its own case-in-chief).
In other words....'bold move, Bannon, we'll see if it pays off for him...'
Definitely cheaper if, behind the curtain, they expect to lose anyway; in which case the do-nothing-then-appeal routine may really be about reaching a compromise after trial.
posted by snuffleupagus at 4:21 PM on July 23, 2022 [1 favorite]
all my riot experience dates from before cell phones, but i cannot imagine stopping mid-riot to read a tweet.
I mean, many stopped to tweet selfies, reading doesn't seem all that far fetched.
posted by pwnguin at 5:04 PM on July 23, 2022
I mean, many stopped to tweet selfies, reading doesn't seem all that far fetched.
posted by pwnguin at 5:04 PM on July 23, 2022
In one Oval Office meeting, a triple Russian threat
A midnight rendezvous with Trump posed a national security risk, says former FBI counterintelligence deputy Peter Strzok /WaPo
A midnight rendezvous with Trump posed a national security risk, says former FBI counterintelligence deputy Peter Strzok /WaPo
One aspect the committee hasn’t touched on yet, however, is the staggering national security implications of the Dec. 18 meeting. Former White House staffer Cassidy Hutchinson characterized the West Wing that night as “unhinged,” but it wasn’t simply a domestic political nightmare.posted by mumimor at 5:05 AM on July 24, 2022 [5 favorites]
It was a counterintelligence risk of the highest order.
Consider that the tiny group in the Oval Office that night was made up of not one, not two, but three people who’d had direct contact with employees or sanctioned or convicted agents of the Russian government: Trump’s personal attorney Rudy Giuliani, Trump’s former national security adviser Michael Flynn and former Overstock chief executive Patrick Byrne. At a moment of grave national peril for the United States, this was an astonishing intelligence achievement for Russia. Giuliani, Flynn and Byrne had all been likely targets of Russian information collection. Russia sought to gain access, develop relationships and, in varying ways, gather information from and convey disinformation to men who later had direct access to the Oval Office and the president. Each one, whether he knew it or not, had been bought, suckered or seduced by Russia.
Their position is that the trial court's restriction of the defense they could put on is prejudicial to the point of deprivation of due process. Thus, they are refusing to put on a defense under those restrictions to avoid acquiescing in the court's ruling.
Yeah, that's not how that actually works, but I guess Bannon thinks it will play well with the rubes?
Broadly speaking (I don't think anybody wants a deep dive into the rules of criminal procedure) objecting at the time of the adverse ruling is sufficient to preserve any appeal.
posted by wierdo at 6:03 AM on July 24, 2022
Yeah, that's not how that actually works, but I guess Bannon thinks it will play well with the rubes?
Broadly speaking (I don't think anybody wants a deep dive into the rules of criminal procedure) objecting at the time of the adverse ruling is sufficient to preserve any appeal.
posted by wierdo at 6:03 AM on July 24, 2022
I don't practice criminal law, but that would be my expectation from what I retained from law school as reenforced by the more general appellate concepts I do pay attention to. Still, there are plenty of situations I could cite (on the civil side) where the better practice is to object and proceed, but bad enough rulings can still lead to judgments being voided after the fact if one takes the riskier path and then shows prejudicial error on review. (And civil procedures is typically less protective in this area.)
Either way, it's plainly what they're doing. And it's not as if the Federal circuits are devoid of their own hacks, rubes or worse; given whose done most of the appointing over the last couple of decades.
posted by snuffleupagus at 6:34 AM on July 24, 2022
Either way, it's plainly what they're doing. And it's not as if the Federal circuits are devoid of their own hacks, rubes or worse; given whose done most of the appointing over the last couple of decades.
posted by snuffleupagus at 6:34 AM on July 24, 2022
Or, if you prefer, they did object at the time of ruling (in motions in limine, I'd expect, I'm trying not to watch the dog and pony show that closely) and thus preserve the appeal — and were then content to rest on that. Which can be risky, but it's not so clearly "not how that actually works" under Federal Rule of Evidence 103:
One of the most difficult questions arising from in limine and other evidentiary rulings is whether a losing party must renew an objection or offer of proof when the evidence is or would be offered at trial, in order to preserve a claim of error on appeal. Courts have taken differing approaches to this question...posted by snuffleupagus at 6:50 AM on July 24, 2022
Preserving your right to appeal is only a part of setting up a successful appeal.
The idea that the judge stripped every possible defense makes for a much more compelling argument of bias. Clearly the judge had it out for the guy.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 7:19 AM on July 24, 2022
The idea that the judge stripped every possible defense makes for a much more compelling argument of bias. Clearly the judge had it out for the guy.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 7:19 AM on July 24, 2022
Beyond all that prognostication; I will not be happy if Bannon goes to OITNB "prison" for thirty days and then hits the Conservative talk circuit with new lifelong cred, Ollie North style.
posted by snuffleupagus at 7:37 AM on July 24, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by snuffleupagus at 7:37 AM on July 24, 2022 [2 favorites]
We may want a new thread on the Jan 6 committee, but I don't have time this morning. But here's some (promising) news from Heather Cox Richardson's Letters From an American this morning.
...Those who can get out in front of the January 6 mess are doing so. Members of the January 6th committee are interviewing Trump’s Treasury Secretary Steve Mnuchin and are negotiating with Trump’s Director of National Intelligence John Ratcliffe and his Secretary of State Mike Pompeo as well. As legal analyst Joyce White Vance noted: “At this point, it’s becoming a race to get to testify in front of the January 6 Committee.”posted by Glinn at 6:20 AM on July 29, 2022 [14 favorites]
Vance explained: “[Representative] Liz Cheney said during last week’s hearing that the dam is breaking. Prosecutors recognize that moment in a long-term investigation. It’s when the bad guys realize they have lost and begin to try to cut their losses.”
Tonight, Kyle Cheney reported in Politico that the January 6th committee is handing 20 witness interviews over to the Department of Justice, and yesterday, we learned that the Department of Justice has obtained a warrant to search the phone of John Eastman, who wrote the memo outlining the plan for Vice President Mike Pence to refuse to recognize certified electors for President-elect Joe Biden.
Today, Katelyn Polantz and Evan Perez of CNN reported that a former Department of Justice staffer who worked with Jeffrey Clark, the man whom Trump considered installing as attorney general to further his attempt to overturn the election, has been fully cooperating with the Department of Justice. The staffer is Ken Klukowski, and he has turned his electronic records over to the Justice Department.
Perez and Polantz also reported that prosecutors from the Department of Justice are planning court fights to get former White House officials to testify about Trump’s actions around January 6.
Vox correspondent Ian Millhiser, who is a keen observer of American politics, commented tonight: “This was a good week for the United States of America and I may be coming down with a case of The Hope.”
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posted by May Kasahara at 8:54 AM on July 12, 2022 [1 favorite]