A Hookup App for the Emotionally Mature
July 13, 2022 8:13 AM Subscribe
“Inclusivity might not mean everybody,” Lin writes. “It could indicate the rest of us.” Emily Witt takes on Feeld, the inclusive and curious hookup app.
One of my favourite bars used to have a sign on the wall saying that all patrons below the age of 28 must be accompanied by an adult. I think about that a lot.
posted by mhoye at 9:06 AM on July 13, 2022 [37 favorites]
posted by mhoye at 9:06 AM on July 13, 2022 [37 favorites]
Great post, burningyrboats! Truly enjoyed the article, had not heard of Feeld before.
posted by Bella Donna at 9:44 AM on July 13, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by Bella Donna at 9:44 AM on July 13, 2022 [1 favorite]
I use OkCupid, Feeld, and Bloom. Interestingly, what I expect from Feeld and Bloom increasingly shows up in the "mainstream" option of OkCupid, to be honest. Including getting likes from the same people across platforms. (Although, I tried Bumble and deleted it after a few days of the most unrelatable people I possibly could have matched with.) I'm still trying to figure out where I belong, and hopeful that Lua arriving this month is made for people like me. But I guess my experience is that there are lots of lines blurring, despite who these apps position themselves toward.
posted by aletheia at 11:20 AM on July 13, 2022 [3 favorites]
posted by aletheia at 11:20 AM on July 13, 2022 [3 favorites]
Feeld is more similar to other apps than this article makes it sound. It has problems (fakes, scams, creeps, no matches in much of the world) and has its own style of cliches and optimized profiles. Still, it's always good to have more smaller and specialized social networks around and not just the big ones. Enjoyed the article.
posted by michaelh at 11:34 AM on July 13, 2022 [7 favorites]
posted by michaelh at 11:34 AM on July 13, 2022 [7 favorites]
At least I wouldn't have to explain G.G.G. to every woman I meet.
I have that challenge with the guys I meet ... because gals won't date me. Clearly, I need to check out Feeld.
posted by Bella Donna at 12:24 PM on July 13, 2022
I have that challenge with the guys I meet ... because gals won't date me. Clearly, I need to check out Feeld.
posted by Bella Donna at 12:24 PM on July 13, 2022
I've used a variety of dating apps previously especially since I can no longer post ads to what used to be the best dating site anymore - Craigslist - and I've wanted a good way to get away from OKCupid for some time because they destroyed the "I don't want to see or be seen by straight people" option by letting straight people who pick any other category see queer ads, and they keep showing me men and showing my profile to men, and I never get an answer when I've asked if they do the same to the straight men on the app.
This app sounds like it might be interesting, but honestly the high number of couples is offputting - I've had to put "no couples" in every ad I've ever posted, and I still get hit on by straight-passing couples who think "lesbian seeking a life partner" means "fetish activity, NSA".
posted by bile and syntax at 12:43 PM on July 13, 2022 [15 favorites]
This app sounds like it might be interesting, but honestly the high number of couples is offputting - I've had to put "no couples" in every ad I've ever posted, and I still get hit on by straight-passing couples who think "lesbian seeking a life partner" means "fetish activity, NSA".
posted by bile and syntax at 12:43 PM on July 13, 2022 [15 favorites]
There are so many lonely people out there. More loneliness than ever. And more fear of strangers. Why can't we all just mess around without consequences, fear, or deception? How much longer until I can move to the kinky retirement communities in florida?
posted by rebent at 3:52 PM on July 13, 2022 [5 favorites]
posted by rebent at 3:52 PM on July 13, 2022 [5 favorites]
i mean, the fear is pretty real?
looking for a cishet guy wanting to be dominant in the bedroom is easy; whether they know how to do it safely is another matter entirely.
just messing around without taking time to vet them is a real easy way to increase the likelihood you'll end up a statistic if you're sub/trans/femme/marginalized...
feeld at least lets me talk to them and see if i'm getting two heads instead of one?
posted by i used to be someone else at 3:59 PM on July 13, 2022 [8 favorites]
looking for a cishet guy wanting to be dominant in the bedroom is easy; whether they know how to do it safely is another matter entirely.
just messing around without taking time to vet them is a real easy way to increase the likelihood you'll end up a statistic if you're sub/trans/femme/marginalized...
feeld at least lets me talk to them and see if i'm getting two heads instead of one?
posted by i used to be someone else at 3:59 PM on July 13, 2022 [8 favorites]
I've used a variety of dating apps previously especially since I can no longer post ads to what used to be the best dating site anymore - Craigslist - and I've wanted a good way to get away from OKCupid for some time because they destroyed the "I don't want to see or be seen by straight people" option by letting straight people who pick any other category see queer ads
so, lex is an interesting thing. it's pretty queer, everything is text-based posts, and it's not just for dates but also events.
it's got its share of bots, but they seem to be removed quickly. the only problem is that it's a bunch of queers who are shy, so.
posted by i used to be someone else at 4:03 PM on July 13, 2022 [6 favorites]
so, lex is an interesting thing. it's pretty queer, everything is text-based posts, and it's not just for dates but also events.
it's got its share of bots, but they seem to be removed quickly. the only problem is that it's a bunch of queers who are shy, so.
posted by i used to be someone else at 4:03 PM on July 13, 2022 [6 favorites]
How much longer until I can move to the kinky retirement communities in florida?
If this isn't already a thing, someone is going to start developing these at some point. I am reminded of that recent FPP about the Margaritaville retirement communities, but NC-17 rated instead of PG.
posted by Dip Flash at 5:57 PM on July 13, 2022 [1 favorite]
If this isn't already a thing, someone is going to start developing these at some point. I am reminded of that recent FPP about the Margaritaville retirement communities, but NC-17 rated instead of PG.
posted by Dip Flash at 5:57 PM on July 13, 2022 [1 favorite]
This was good in my area for about 2-3 years ago, before straight people identifying as varying shades of queer (pan, bi, etc.) invaded and it became more dating than hookup.
This is no shade on straight people because I had a hookup with a bi woman and a straight guy and they were perfectly nice. The sex ended up not working for me because it was very, very hetero, but that's not anything wrong with them; they were great folks. I had another couple of dates and almost hookup with another straight guy.
The problems came when the kind of people who put their politics first in a profile joined in a weird enormous influx during the pandemic. I had a date with "pan" guy who said he was cool with transguys. When I showed up he proceeded to tell me the problem with "hate crimes" is that "you can't punch gay guys for touching you anymore". He was black, so I thought it was extra-shitty. Also, the vibe made me feel unsafe even before he opened his mouth. He went on to tell me that he doesn't date women who hookup, because "you know what they're doing with everyone else." I ended up doing things I didn't want to do.
I had several dates in that vein before I quit. Another notable for me was the guy whose profile said "heteroflexible" and when I showed up, I asked him what his trans experience was. That's when he claimed to be "gay", but the guy turned out to be into butch women and had dated one for a short period that went trans. I had put in my profile that I was only interested in hookups, because my life isn't in a good dating place. He did that thing I've come to expect from "open-minded" straight guys, which is to pretend to romance me by text and on the first date. I was confused, but had fun hanging out, and on date two we finally got to sex. He immediately stopped texting me cold.
The reason I've come to expect this from straight guys is they're socialized to act like they have to "steal" sex from someone they see as a woman. You have to trick her into it, in their eyes. Gay guys on grindr have been a far better experience for me. They've communicated exactly what they want and what they're into and that's exactly what I've gotten (although I have been careful about the few I've met up with).
I was chatting with another dude and he said exactly what I was thinking before I said it, about all the virtue-signaling and weird signals from people who have no idea what they're trying to be or do, "Just because they have BLM in their profile doesn't mean they're getting any," (he is, in fact black, and apparently has learned from experience to be as cynical as I have, for some of the same reasons).
It used to be you could weed out assholes with certain language, but now that it's popular, it's only good for filtering people out.
posted by liminal_shadows at 6:03 PM on July 13, 2022 [14 favorites]
This is no shade on straight people because I had a hookup with a bi woman and a straight guy and they were perfectly nice. The sex ended up not working for me because it was very, very hetero, but that's not anything wrong with them; they were great folks. I had another couple of dates and almost hookup with another straight guy.
The problems came when the kind of people who put their politics first in a profile joined in a weird enormous influx during the pandemic. I had a date with "pan" guy who said he was cool with transguys. When I showed up he proceeded to tell me the problem with "hate crimes" is that "you can't punch gay guys for touching you anymore". He was black, so I thought it was extra-shitty. Also, the vibe made me feel unsafe even before he opened his mouth. He went on to tell me that he doesn't date women who hookup, because "you know what they're doing with everyone else." I ended up doing things I didn't want to do.
I had several dates in that vein before I quit. Another notable for me was the guy whose profile said "heteroflexible" and when I showed up, I asked him what his trans experience was. That's when he claimed to be "gay", but the guy turned out to be into butch women and had dated one for a short period that went trans. I had put in my profile that I was only interested in hookups, because my life isn't in a good dating place. He did that thing I've come to expect from "open-minded" straight guys, which is to pretend to romance me by text and on the first date. I was confused, but had fun hanging out, and on date two we finally got to sex. He immediately stopped texting me cold.
The reason I've come to expect this from straight guys is they're socialized to act like they have to "steal" sex from someone they see as a woman. You have to trick her into it, in their eyes. Gay guys on grindr have been a far better experience for me. They've communicated exactly what they want and what they're into and that's exactly what I've gotten (although I have been careful about the few I've met up with).
I was chatting with another dude and he said exactly what I was thinking before I said it, about all the virtue-signaling and weird signals from people who have no idea what they're trying to be or do, "Just because they have BLM in their profile doesn't mean they're getting any," (he is, in fact black, and apparently has learned from experience to be as cynical as I have, for some of the same reasons).
It used to be you could weed out assholes with certain language, but now that it's popular, it's only good for filtering people out.
posted by liminal_shadows at 6:03 PM on July 13, 2022 [14 favorites]
The Match group is the worst thing to happen to online dating and they just continue to suck up more companies as they go. They botched up Tinder. They decimated OKCupid. And OKCupid, as many in this thread agree, was mountains above the competition - those match percentages were eerily accurate (still mostly are) especially if you answered more than, like, 100 questions.
The thing I like about Feeld, though - and I wish more apps did this - is that you don't need to swipe left/right to make a choice the first time you see someone. You swipe through profiles like you're looking at listings, and you have to press buttons on the profile itself to Yes/No someone. Until you do that, they're just in the list of people you could potentially like or not. Really takes the pressure off if you're on the fence about someone, or if they say they'll "finish filling this out later" and sometimes they actually *do* finish filling it out later.
That said, the downside to that functionality is a lot of people just wait for someone else to like them or for someone else to hit the Feeld equivalent of a "super like" since they're not under any pressure to make a decision when they see a new profile.
But, uh, if you're looking for kinky folks and fetlife is a little too loose but Tinder/Bumble/Etc are a little too uptight - Feeld is a solid app.
posted by revmitcz at 7:24 PM on July 13, 2022 [6 favorites]
The thing I like about Feeld, though - and I wish more apps did this - is that you don't need to swipe left/right to make a choice the first time you see someone. You swipe through profiles like you're looking at listings, and you have to press buttons on the profile itself to Yes/No someone. Until you do that, they're just in the list of people you could potentially like or not. Really takes the pressure off if you're on the fence about someone, or if they say they'll "finish filling this out later" and sometimes they actually *do* finish filling it out later.
That said, the downside to that functionality is a lot of people just wait for someone else to like them or for someone else to hit the Feeld equivalent of a "super like" since they're not under any pressure to make a decision when they see a new profile.
But, uh, if you're looking for kinky folks and fetlife is a little too loose but Tinder/Bumble/Etc are a little too uptight - Feeld is a solid app.
posted by revmitcz at 7:24 PM on July 13, 2022 [6 favorites]
liminal_shadows can you clarify what you mean by “straight people identifying as varying shades of queer (pan, bi, etc.)” because at my first couple reads it’s coming through as bi/pan-phobic when it seems like your issue is specifically with cis men who think they should signal that they’re queerer than they are. I don’t want to speak for you but as a pan person that characterization grated a little.
posted by Francies at 8:53 PM on July 13, 2022 [16 favorites]
posted by Francies at 8:53 PM on July 13, 2022 [16 favorites]
I've thought about this a lot (re, my last post in this thread), because I've been dating online for over 20 years and this is a new kind of ick, men IDing on dating and hookup sites as not-straight and not-cis when they are in fact both of those things. There are multiple intersecting reasons for this, but the main one, if I had to pick, is that women, particularly young women are putting "no cis-het guys" in their profiles. Guys aren't stupid, so they're reacting accordingly. Whenever I talk to or meet up with one of these hosers, it turns out they mean they want "female genitals" or at best someone who "passes for female." I'd say about 80 percent of the time they want female genitalia, the other 20 or so they might go for a passing transwoman.
Some of them at least try to be honest about it by saying "women and NBs" when what they mean is V A G I N A. None of these guys would do a male-bodied NB-identified person.
And I think (although I am less sure about this, because I have very rarely gone out with a woman since I went on T) is that a lot of the NB female-bodied folk ID that way mainly because they want to be treated better than women.
And yeah, sure. I know, notallmen. I'm only speaking from my experience.
This is all new. 20+ years ago I was dating a LOT, and I was IDing as genderqueer. Back then you could absolutely be assured that someone IDing as genderqueer and pan/omni actually was that thing. And if they used zie/zir pronouns (or sir, or hir) they were legitimately part of my clan.
The same thing that is happening to the mainstream dating/hookup scene now is something that happened to the kink scene over ten years ago: namely you get this massive influx of people who don't know the history, don't know the rules, and when they do, they don't actually respect any of the culture at all.
A man I absolutely worship (and crushed on, and played with one banner time) wrote about the kind of thing I'm talking about and I couldn't have said any of it better. Incidentally I think this man is the only good Christian I've ever met.
I don't know what the fix is for this. The problem seems to be primarily men. The women I've talked to and gone out with at least date along the lines of how they identify. This is the grotty underbelly of good change--when people are aware they'll be rejected and isolated for being "cishet" they lie, hoping to reel in someone woke who matches the genitals and outward appearance of what they actually want. This is one of my problems with purity tests. When I'm hooking up with someone their politics are less important than "Will they treat me respectfully and communicate well?" And these days identifiers no longer tell me that, like they did 20 years ago.
And yeah, I was on fetlife for a while. I loathe the straight male-dominant / female-submissive "domination" (heh) of the site. I hate all the porn that I find offensive and having it shoved in my face (I'm kinky as hell but I'm super-queer and a radical feminist and I have major issues with straight porn and straight culture at large). I hate all the ads, and I hate the fact that groups that used to be private and close-knit are painfully public now. It has the same problems as facebook x10. The site gets scraped and profiles posted elsewhere, among other things. I've also seen mocking screenshots floating around. Basically you're exposing your innermost self to any asshat with an email address, rather than at a club where every single member is vetted, sponsored, and given a probationary period before becoming a full member.
Over the last 20 years I've had dates from sparkmatch, purpleturtle (wow, talk about niche), nerve, craigslist, yahoo personals, alt.com, collarme, collarspace, okcupid x 1000 until they fucked it up, bdsm.com, Tinder, grindr, Her, Feeld, a European website I shall not name, and yes, Fetlife (even though it's not a dating site) um...I'm sure I'm forgetting some. Most of these are now defunct. One thing I can absolutely tell you is that every couple of years dating gets worse for me. And it's not just the inevitable aging and illness that make my poverty too appalling for more than just hookups--the sites themselves become less and less functional.
Case in point, you used to be able to search for any word at all in someone's profile on okc, and on collarspace. You haven't been able to do that in years now. Collarspace changed their backend so that if you change your ad it strips all the punctuation out and elides words. Any change you make also takes months to approve.
You name a dating site and I'll tell you exactly when and how it went to hell.
posted by liminal_shadows at 9:04 PM on July 13, 2022 [17 favorites]
Some of them at least try to be honest about it by saying "women and NBs" when what they mean is V A G I N A. None of these guys would do a male-bodied NB-identified person.
And I think (although I am less sure about this, because I have very rarely gone out with a woman since I went on T) is that a lot of the NB female-bodied folk ID that way mainly because they want to be treated better than women.
And yeah, sure. I know, notallmen. I'm only speaking from my experience.
This is all new. 20+ years ago I was dating a LOT, and I was IDing as genderqueer. Back then you could absolutely be assured that someone IDing as genderqueer and pan/omni actually was that thing. And if they used zie/zir pronouns (or sir, or hir) they were legitimately part of my clan.
The same thing that is happening to the mainstream dating/hookup scene now is something that happened to the kink scene over ten years ago: namely you get this massive influx of people who don't know the history, don't know the rules, and when they do, they don't actually respect any of the culture at all.
A man I absolutely worship (and crushed on, and played with one banner time) wrote about the kind of thing I'm talking about and I couldn't have said any of it better. Incidentally I think this man is the only good Christian I've ever met.
I don't know what the fix is for this. The problem seems to be primarily men. The women I've talked to and gone out with at least date along the lines of how they identify. This is the grotty underbelly of good change--when people are aware they'll be rejected and isolated for being "cishet" they lie, hoping to reel in someone woke who matches the genitals and outward appearance of what they actually want. This is one of my problems with purity tests. When I'm hooking up with someone their politics are less important than "Will they treat me respectfully and communicate well?" And these days identifiers no longer tell me that, like they did 20 years ago.
And yeah, I was on fetlife for a while. I loathe the straight male-dominant / female-submissive "domination" (heh) of the site. I hate all the porn that I find offensive and having it shoved in my face (I'm kinky as hell but I'm super-queer and a radical feminist and I have major issues with straight porn and straight culture at large). I hate all the ads, and I hate the fact that groups that used to be private and close-knit are painfully public now. It has the same problems as facebook x10. The site gets scraped and profiles posted elsewhere, among other things. I've also seen mocking screenshots floating around. Basically you're exposing your innermost self to any asshat with an email address, rather than at a club where every single member is vetted, sponsored, and given a probationary period before becoming a full member.
Over the last 20 years I've had dates from sparkmatch, purpleturtle (wow, talk about niche), nerve, craigslist, yahoo personals, alt.com, collarme, collarspace, okcupid x 1000 until they fucked it up, bdsm.com, Tinder, grindr, Her, Feeld, a European website I shall not name, and yes, Fetlife (even though it's not a dating site) um...I'm sure I'm forgetting some. Most of these are now defunct. One thing I can absolutely tell you is that every couple of years dating gets worse for me. And it's not just the inevitable aging and illness that make my poverty too appalling for more than just hookups--the sites themselves become less and less functional.
Case in point, you used to be able to search for any word at all in someone's profile on okc, and on collarspace. You haven't been able to do that in years now. Collarspace changed their backend so that if you change your ad it strips all the punctuation out and elides words. Any change you make also takes months to approve.
You name a dating site and I'll tell you exactly when and how it went to hell.
posted by liminal_shadows at 9:04 PM on July 13, 2022 [17 favorites]
Hey Francies, thanks for asking! I appreciate a chance to clarify. Hopefully the previous post does? FWIW I identify as omnisexual and trans-masc.
I am not phobic of anything except bad experiences and when I spot a pattern, I'd be a moron to keep putting myself in that bad pattern.
If someone is legitimately pan/omni/bi, great! I love that (and before these past two years I rarely had a problem with that (aside from bisexual women trying to get me to fuck their husbands when I told them it was off the table). The problem is with people identifying as things they're not in order to avoid the "no cishet" filter many young female-bodied folks use. And boy, this has exploded beyond belief since the pandemic. It's like they all found religion but they think they all purchased indulgences from the catholic church.
It's so bad that I've decided for now to stick with Grindr and gay dudes. There if someone is a creep it shows up by message 2. Make it past that and you're good to go. Better communicators too.
posted by liminal_shadows at 9:10 PM on July 13, 2022 [4 favorites]
I am not phobic of anything except bad experiences and when I spot a pattern, I'd be a moron to keep putting myself in that bad pattern.
If someone is legitimately pan/omni/bi, great! I love that (and before these past two years I rarely had a problem with that (aside from bisexual women trying to get me to fuck their husbands when I told them it was off the table). The problem is with people identifying as things they're not in order to avoid the "no cishet" filter many young female-bodied folks use. And boy, this has exploded beyond belief since the pandemic. It's like they all found religion but they think they all purchased indulgences from the catholic church.
It's so bad that I've decided for now to stick with Grindr and gay dudes. There if someone is a creep it shows up by message 2. Make it past that and you're good to go. Better communicators too.
posted by liminal_shadows at 9:10 PM on July 13, 2022 [4 favorites]
I wish that it were ok for people to specify genital preference on ads. :\ I don't have one, but I think allowing people to do that without denigrating them would go halfway to solving the problem I keep running into.
posted by liminal_shadows at 9:13 PM on July 13, 2022 [3 favorites]
posted by liminal_shadows at 9:13 PM on July 13, 2022 [3 favorites]
I just downloaded this app and it wouldn’t let me choose multiple options for sexuality. I’m an ace lesbian, I also identify as queer, but those are mutually exclusive options per the app. I found that disappointing in terms of inclusivity.
posted by Emily's Fist at 9:20 PM on July 13, 2022 [5 favorites]
posted by Emily's Fist at 9:20 PM on July 13, 2022 [5 favorites]
liminal_shadows I totally get what you mean now, thank you! I have the same frustrations and I agree with your frustrations with cishet men specifically and to a greater extent the fact that queer self identification can’t be counted on the way it used to be
posted by Francies at 9:50 PM on July 13, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by Francies at 9:50 PM on July 13, 2022 [2 favorites]
This thread is (once again) making me glad that I'm vehemently lesbian... I don't think I could deal with the straights.
posted by Jacen at 11:38 PM on July 13, 2022 [3 favorites]
posted by Jacen at 11:38 PM on July 13, 2022 [3 favorites]
have been on feeld since the 3nder days and i’ve had mostly really good experiences there — most of the folks I’ve met have just been really cool and interesting compared to other swipe apps (tinder/hinge/bumble/her).
I have friends who have learned more about their own sexualities by way of exploring all those filter options.
It’s sad to hear it’s already being ruined by normies. My profile is a combo one with my partner, so any men i see are already bi / comfy enough to consider a hookup with another man, which I think mostly removes that pretend-queer demographic from my options. I also appreciate that this app removes the creep factor from unicorn hunting (and being a unicorn) since you can directly opt in to that arrangement, and people who try to circumvent that by doing a fake woman profile that is actually a couple can be easily ignored and swiped past.
posted by internet of pillows at 12:38 AM on July 14, 2022 [2 favorites]
I have friends who have learned more about their own sexualities by way of exploring all those filter options.
It’s sad to hear it’s already being ruined by normies. My profile is a combo one with my partner, so any men i see are already bi / comfy enough to consider a hookup with another man, which I think mostly removes that pretend-queer demographic from my options. I also appreciate that this app removes the creep factor from unicorn hunting (and being a unicorn) since you can directly opt in to that arrangement, and people who try to circumvent that by doing a fake woman profile that is actually a couple can be easily ignored and swiped past.
posted by internet of pillows at 12:38 AM on July 14, 2022 [2 favorites]
The problem is with people identifying as things they're not in order to avoid the "no cishet" filter many young female-bodied folks use.
the number of cishet men who say they're pan/omni, match, and then explicitly ask me what i have down there and then unmatch if i say i'm pre-op...
posted by i used to be someone else at 5:43 AM on July 14, 2022 [4 favorites]
the number of cishet men who say they're pan/omni, match, and then explicitly ask me what i have down there and then unmatch if i say i'm pre-op...
posted by i used to be someone else at 5:43 AM on July 14, 2022 [4 favorites]
Why can't we all just mess around without consequences, fear, or deception?
The problem seems to be primarily men.
The problem is men. The problem is male privilege, the problem is straight privilege, the problem is sexism and the devaluation of women and anything perceived as female or feminine, and the problem is also women who go along with them and enable them or use them as cover for their own entitled behaviors - women who can pass for straight have absolutely made clear to me that they see me as lesser, and that they feel entitled to my time, attentions, and body - and I'm white and cis, this is so much worse for anyone who isn't. The problem is living in a world that constantly frames and re-frames women's sexuality as being about and for men, including (especially) women like me who want nothing to do with men.
I mean, ffs, I'm nervous about trying out an app that I can use at my apartment and delete at any time because dealing with this is so stressful. I'm in my 40s and I've been using online dating for 20 years, this should be nothing, it should be relaxing, I just want to be able to meet other women that I can maybe have a future with whether that's a friendship or an actual partnership. Apps that are ostensibly only for women? Straight men and couples. Apps where I can specify no straight people? Straight men and couples. Apps where I can select that I only want to see women? Straight men and couples. There is a total lack of respect for women at the design level, because so many of these apps are built by and for men, with men's desires placed higher than anyone else's safety and it drives the women I want to meet off the apps.
Apologies for the binary language, for me this is a very binary experience.
posted by bile and syntax at 7:36 AM on July 14, 2022 [11 favorites]
The problem seems to be primarily men.
The problem is men. The problem is male privilege, the problem is straight privilege, the problem is sexism and the devaluation of women and anything perceived as female or feminine, and the problem is also women who go along with them and enable them or use them as cover for their own entitled behaviors - women who can pass for straight have absolutely made clear to me that they see me as lesser, and that they feel entitled to my time, attentions, and body - and I'm white and cis, this is so much worse for anyone who isn't. The problem is living in a world that constantly frames and re-frames women's sexuality as being about and for men, including (especially) women like me who want nothing to do with men.
I mean, ffs, I'm nervous about trying out an app that I can use at my apartment and delete at any time because dealing with this is so stressful. I'm in my 40s and I've been using online dating for 20 years, this should be nothing, it should be relaxing, I just want to be able to meet other women that I can maybe have a future with whether that's a friendship or an actual partnership. Apps that are ostensibly only for women? Straight men and couples. Apps where I can specify no straight people? Straight men and couples. Apps where I can select that I only want to see women? Straight men and couples. There is a total lack of respect for women at the design level, because so many of these apps are built by and for men, with men's desires placed higher than anyone else's safety and it drives the women I want to meet off the apps.
Apologies for the binary language, for me this is a very binary experience.
posted by bile and syntax at 7:36 AM on July 14, 2022 [11 favorites]
Tbh, though I have hooked up with humans across the gender spectrum, via my kink community participation, this policing of one's identity down to extreme specifics is a reason why I don't feel the queer community at large has been equip to provide any more safety or community to me than anywhere else. =/
So, pansexual = fucks all genders, or at least two. Is that policing? If it is we're at an impasse.
If a man goes on a date with me, a non-passing, non-op trans dude, and talks about beating up gay guys, that man does not get to identify as pansexual. This sort of thing has, in fact happened multiple times.
If a man IDs as pansexual and only fucks vaginas, that dude is not pansexual.
Straight people are not bad. Heterosexual culture, however, has serious issues, and I prefer not to date guys who don't do dicks. I get to decide that, and I get to complain when they lie to me.
I appreciate your vulnerability in sharing your experiences--it's wildly hard for me to do and I really appreciate hearing more trans voices, particularly with different perspectives.
I think we're talking past each other and I suspect that women (of any flavor) who dated straight guys as teens will get what I'm saying here. I get the feeling that the the whole "guy tricks someone into sex" stems partially from shame, and partially because sex isn't as easy to get for straight men, particularly in the quantity that they would like, and that really sucks for everyone. But just because I have empathy doesn't mean they get to lie to me and enact their trauma on my person.
Is being queer superior to being straight? For me, yes. For a straight person, absolutely not. That would be ridiculous.
I did need need the reminder to take more time, and try to communicate clearly. Thank you. I really appreciate your kind nudge.
I'll leave you with this. Let's say a straight transwoman went on a date with a guy who said he was a heterosexual guy and into women. On the first or 2nd date, in this stranger's house, she hears him say pussies are gross. She asks about his dating history and this self-identified "straight guy" says he only dates men. Would you be offended? If not, you're Mother Teresa and I salute you. This is exactly what's been happening to me (reverse genders and sexualities). Sometimes the language is even more crass. God. I'm having minor ick flashblacks just thinking about this.
I'm not annoyed at you--you've been very civil. I'm just frustrated with the weird difficulty I'm having communicating this. Words, especially words used to interact with people having meaning. You don't say I'm going to see a podiatrist when you mean dentist. This influx of people who are good people (do I really have to specify this? apparently so) are straight and as straight people they do not understand gay culture or history. They start using words: some may be misunderstandings, some may be wanting to explore, and some may be lying. I keep turning over the lying rocks. There's nothing wrong with exploring; that's great, as long as your date knows that upfront. There's nothing "bad" about misunderstanding words, as long as one is open to correction, but I think we can all at least agree lying is bad.
I also think we can come together around the fact that no matter how you slice it, online dating sucks and apps are clumsy tools that are deliberately made less functional in order to generate more capital.
posted by liminal_shadows at 10:31 AM on July 14, 2022 [12 favorites]
So, pansexual = fucks all genders, or at least two. Is that policing? If it is we're at an impasse.
If a man goes on a date with me, a non-passing, non-op trans dude, and talks about beating up gay guys, that man does not get to identify as pansexual. This sort of thing has, in fact happened multiple times.
If a man IDs as pansexual and only fucks vaginas, that dude is not pansexual.
Straight people are not bad. Heterosexual culture, however, has serious issues, and I prefer not to date guys who don't do dicks. I get to decide that, and I get to complain when they lie to me.
I appreciate your vulnerability in sharing your experiences--it's wildly hard for me to do and I really appreciate hearing more trans voices, particularly with different perspectives.
I think we're talking past each other and I suspect that women (of any flavor) who dated straight guys as teens will get what I'm saying here. I get the feeling that the the whole "guy tricks someone into sex" stems partially from shame, and partially because sex isn't as easy to get for straight men, particularly in the quantity that they would like, and that really sucks for everyone. But just because I have empathy doesn't mean they get to lie to me and enact their trauma on my person.
Is being queer superior to being straight? For me, yes. For a straight person, absolutely not. That would be ridiculous.
I did need need the reminder to take more time, and try to communicate clearly. Thank you. I really appreciate your kind nudge.
I'll leave you with this. Let's say a straight transwoman went on a date with a guy who said he was a heterosexual guy and into women. On the first or 2nd date, in this stranger's house, she hears him say pussies are gross. She asks about his dating history and this self-identified "straight guy" says he only dates men. Would you be offended? If not, you're Mother Teresa and I salute you. This is exactly what's been happening to me (reverse genders and sexualities). Sometimes the language is even more crass. God. I'm having minor ick flashblacks just thinking about this.
I'm not annoyed at you--you've been very civil. I'm just frustrated with the weird difficulty I'm having communicating this. Words, especially words used to interact with people having meaning. You don't say I'm going to see a podiatrist when you mean dentist. This influx of people who are good people (do I really have to specify this? apparently so) are straight and as straight people they do not understand gay culture or history. They start using words: some may be misunderstandings, some may be wanting to explore, and some may be lying. I keep turning over the lying rocks. There's nothing wrong with exploring; that's great, as long as your date knows that upfront. There's nothing "bad" about misunderstanding words, as long as one is open to correction, but I think we can all at least agree lying is bad.
I also think we can come together around the fact that no matter how you slice it, online dating sucks and apps are clumsy tools that are deliberately made less functional in order to generate more capital.
posted by liminal_shadows at 10:31 AM on July 14, 2022 [12 favorites]
The problem is men.The problem is absolutely men. But that leads to the question — what should men do about that? The answer that I came to was to divest from masculinity, to change my pronouns and stop thinking of myself as a man, so I could begin to untangle the damage that my socialization did to me.
It's a sort of weird spot to be in — I understand that I'm parsed by most people as a man, and I don't expect people who aren't attracted to men to be attracted to me — but I'm not going to describe myself or my sexuality in terms of gender, which often makes it difficult to communicate my "identity" (as such) to other people. That difficulty is worth the clarity it's brought me, but I understand that it'd be frustrating for someone hoping for androgyny or femininity to swipe past me on a dating app. I wish there were a way to make that clearer in a way that could be filtered on dating apps, but there isn't, other than incorrectly marking myself as a man.
I also probably parse as "straight" to most people — I tend to be very wary of being intimate with men at all, for the same reasons I distanced myself from masculinity — but that's not exactly right, since trans men frequently have a well-adjusted enough relationship to their masculinity that I can be close to them, as do some AMAB nonbinary people. I'm sure there are cis men out there who I could be intimate with as well, but I'm not usually inclined to try, since the downsides can be so severe, and the odds of finding a cis man who has a healthy relationship to masculinity so slim that it doesn't feel worth trying.
So, I dunno, maybe I'm one of those fake queers clogging up the dating apps (or I was, back when I was on dating apps). But I think it's important to give men a offramp from masculinity, and space to unlearn the toxic aspects of their socialization. I get that there are a lot of queer spaces that aren't that, and that those spaces are important. But I'm uncomfortable with the amount of gatekeeping I see, since having gentle offramps from masculinity seems to me possibly the only way to actually fix things.
posted by wesleyac at 10:48 AM on July 14, 2022 [6 favorites]
So, pansexual = fucks all genders, or at least two. Is that policing? If it is we're at an impasse.
...
If a man IDs as pansexual and only fucks vaginas, that dude is not pansexual.
This is straight-up erasure and wildly shitty. It's exactly what Phalene is talking about in their first paragraph and you just went and doubled-down on this.
I'm also exceedingly frustrated that there's a lot of talk of "men" when what seems to be implied is "cis het men", which, again, erasure of trans men and gay men, so what's going on here? Please say what you mean, and be specific. This is a complicated conversation and using shorthand when emotions are high is only going to cause strife.
Apologies for the binary language, for me this is a very binary experience.
This is not an apology. "I just did a shitty thing! I did it anyway. Sorry not sorry."
I 100% believe the experiences you're both relating here, AND you are framing this in a really bad way with gatekeeping language that just perpetuates a lot of toxic stuff.
posted by curious nu at 10:51 AM on July 14, 2022 [3 favorites]
...
If a man IDs as pansexual and only fucks vaginas, that dude is not pansexual.
This is straight-up erasure and wildly shitty. It's exactly what Phalene is talking about in their first paragraph and you just went and doubled-down on this.
I'm also exceedingly frustrated that there's a lot of talk of "men" when what seems to be implied is "cis het men", which, again, erasure of trans men and gay men, so what's going on here? Please say what you mean, and be specific. This is a complicated conversation and using shorthand when emotions are high is only going to cause strife.
Apologies for the binary language, for me this is a very binary experience.
This is not an apology. "I just did a shitty thing! I did it anyway. Sorry not sorry."
I 100% believe the experiences you're both relating here, AND you are framing this in a really bad way with gatekeeping language that just perpetuates a lot of toxic stuff.
posted by curious nu at 10:51 AM on July 14, 2022 [3 favorites]
If a man IDs as pansexual and only fucks vaginas, that dude is not pansexual.
Just.. like, holy shit. Anyone can have a vagina. Men can have a vagina. Women can have a vagina. Agender people can have a vagina. You're conflating gender and anatomy here and that's basic 101 stuff. MetaFilter isn't necessarily a safe space for people but we've got some standards about basic levels of discourse on these topics at this point.
posted by curious nu at 11:03 AM on July 14, 2022 [1 favorite]
Just.. like, holy shit. Anyone can have a vagina. Men can have a vagina. Women can have a vagina. Agender people can have a vagina. You're conflating gender and anatomy here and that's basic 101 stuff. MetaFilter isn't necessarily a safe space for people but we've got some standards about basic levels of discourse on these topics at this point.
posted by curious nu at 11:03 AM on July 14, 2022 [1 favorite]
Gatekeeping? That would assume I had any power in any place anywhere, which is so far from the truth it's laughable. You want to ID as anything in the world, rock on with your bad self, I support you. But I'm allowed to not date anyone I please, and that includes bi and pan guys that I've only met on apps and not through social activities. Please don't conflate "not wanting to date, particularly for safety reasons" with "I, as head dick-tater, refuse to allow the peons to identify themselves." My body is not obligated to be your "soft offramp" as someone put it above. Think about what you're asking someone who has been raised with a female body to do for you and examine why you're so insecure you need someone approve your every decision. Classic narcissism is writing someone off as evil when they have a problem with an aspect of a thing that you've done. Maybe think about that too.
I'm checking out of this thread so this doesn't turn into back and forth and for mental health reasons. If you have something to say to me I won't see it unless it's memail.
posted by liminal_shadows at 12:14 PM on July 14, 2022 [6 favorites]
I'm checking out of this thread so this doesn't turn into back and forth and for mental health reasons. If you have something to say to me I won't see it unless it's memail.
posted by liminal_shadows at 12:14 PM on July 14, 2022 [6 favorites]
Gatekeeping? […] But I'm allowed to not date anyone I pleaseTo be clear, "gatekeeping" in my comment wasn't intended to refer to deciding to date people or not, but rather about making proclamations about other people's identities. I understand that I'm (probably?) not the intended target of people in this thread complaining about "straight" people who don't sufficiently identify themselves as such, but seeing so much of that attitude on social media was a big part of why it took me a long time to start thinking critically about my relationship to gender at all. To be honest, it's probably a big part of why I studiously try to avoid identifying as anything at all.
So I worry when I see threads like this that there are a lot of people reading who think of themselves as cis and straight, who could be served much better by distancing themselves from those ideas, but will get in their head that if they try on a new way of thinking about their gender or sexuality then they're really just faking it and they're actually cis and het and invading queer spaces or whatever.
I'm reminded of this quote from Serena Bhandar, from Turn This World Inside Out:
It is as though trans readers are a secondary audience, when instead transness should be built right into the argument from its conception, especially since everybody has the potential to be trans. Everyone has a complex relationship with their gender identity. Cis people perform their gender just as much as trans folks do. Putting transness at the center of our understanding of gender makes apparent that cisness has also always been complicated.I understand that it must be miserable to have even the dating apps that are nominally for queer people to be flooded with people who you're not interested in, who are often actively scary, who are not describing themselves accurately, and I don't want to get in the way of venting and discussion of that, since it's not something that I have experience with. But it makes me sad to see sweeping generalizations about the (in)validity of other people's identities, and to know that if I had read this thread when I'd been first thinking about stepping away from masculinity (part of which was switching away from being a "man" on OkC), I probably wouldn't have done it.
I guess I'll just end with — if you're reading this thread and you think of yourself as cis/het but are interested in thinking about stepping away from that, feel free to memail me if you want to chat about that. It's been really good and useful for me and I think a lot of people could benefit from thinking more about how they relate to their gender and sexuality.
posted by wesleyac at 1:09 PM on July 14, 2022 [6 favorites]
Since liminal_shadows has bowed out of this thread I have reworded my comment as general commentary on the kind of rhetoric quoted rather than a comment addressed directly to him. No response is expected.
a lot of the NB female-bodied folk ID that way mainly because they want to be treated better than women.
Folks may not be aware of this but saying that "female-bodied" nonbinary people identify as such as a way to escape/opt-out of misogyny or "to be treated better than women" is a very common piece of TERF rhetoric. It's an incredibly reductive, dismissive, and invalidating way to talk about people's identities. It frames nonbinary-ness not as a thing that people are but as a costume people put on or a tool people use to get something they want (a familiar trope). Nonbinary people (who don't also ID as women) aren't asking to be treated "better than women" they are asking to not be treated as a woman period because for someone who is not a woman being treated "as a woman" causes them harm even when no misogyny or sexism is present. I think that most nonbinary people understand that the people who engage in misogyny and sexism don't magically stop doing that when you say you are nonbinary. Instead the response is generally that they are now exposed to both misogyny/sexism AND transphobia. People who don't respect you for the gender they assume you to be rarely change their behavior for the better when you tell them that their assumption was incorrect. Anyone who thinks that saying you are nonbinary is some kind of get-out-of-sexism-free card will be shown how wrong that notion is very quickly.
Listen to what nonbinary people say and take them at their word when they tell you why they identify the way that they do. If you personally know nonbinary people who sincerely say that "being treated better than women" is the main reason they identify the way that they do then it's fine to say that about them specifically as individuals (although it's also worth unpacking what they mean by that because it's probably more complicated/nuanced) but please don't apply this reasoning to all or most AFAB nonbinary people. If you find that your explanations for why trans and/or nonbinary people identify the way that they do overlaps heavily with what TERFs are saying then please let that motivate you to re-examine those beliefs.
posted by metaphorever at 1:19 PM on July 14, 2022 [14 favorites]
a lot of the NB female-bodied folk ID that way mainly because they want to be treated better than women.
Folks may not be aware of this but saying that "female-bodied" nonbinary people identify as such as a way to escape/opt-out of misogyny or "to be treated better than women" is a very common piece of TERF rhetoric. It's an incredibly reductive, dismissive, and invalidating way to talk about people's identities. It frames nonbinary-ness not as a thing that people are but as a costume people put on or a tool people use to get something they want (a familiar trope). Nonbinary people (who don't also ID as women) aren't asking to be treated "better than women" they are asking to not be treated as a woman period because for someone who is not a woman being treated "as a woman" causes them harm even when no misogyny or sexism is present. I think that most nonbinary people understand that the people who engage in misogyny and sexism don't magically stop doing that when you say you are nonbinary. Instead the response is generally that they are now exposed to both misogyny/sexism AND transphobia. People who don't respect you for the gender they assume you to be rarely change their behavior for the better when you tell them that their assumption was incorrect. Anyone who thinks that saying you are nonbinary is some kind of get-out-of-sexism-free card will be shown how wrong that notion is very quickly.
Listen to what nonbinary people say and take them at their word when they tell you why they identify the way that they do. If you personally know nonbinary people who sincerely say that "being treated better than women" is the main reason they identify the way that they do then it's fine to say that about them specifically as individuals (although it's also worth unpacking what they mean by that because it's probably more complicated/nuanced) but please don't apply this reasoning to all or most AFAB nonbinary people. If you find that your explanations for why trans and/or nonbinary people identify the way that they do overlaps heavily with what TERFs are saying then please let that motivate you to re-examine those beliefs.
posted by metaphorever at 1:19 PM on July 14, 2022 [14 favorites]
I listened to the podcast NB: My Non-Binary Life on the BBC recently, and found this part really comforting (episode 8, Travis Alabanza speaking-- I included the whole quote but it takes a while to find its relevance to the conversation):
I want to believe that there is room in every identity (including "cishet man") for freedom, and that those who are questioning don't need to ever prove they are "queer enough" or "genderqueer enough" to be loved. I get why somebody might want to exclude "cishet men" and only date folks who are comfortable enough identifying otherwise, but I also get why somebody who is questioning might feel like they don't have a home anywhere. It just seems like there's a lot of harshness in the dating world and I wish there was more of Travis' energy. They seem to know what's up.
posted by a_curious_koala at 2:06 PM on July 14, 2022
I personally like use non-binary for shorthand for people because it's become like an easier way for people to digest me. The word for me, um, doesn't move me, I don't need it. I think it's become really helpful for lots of people and it's also helpful for shorthand conversation. And I feel like what's maybe happened in the last year, if I'm like being honest, is that I think we've moved into a dangerous territory where we're trying to put categories and rules about the very thing that never was meant to have rules. Um, for me, I see trans-ness as like synonym for freedom. I think trans-ness as like a synonym for escape. I see trans-ness as saying fuck rules. And suddenly because of getting more mainstream attention, because of this heightened danger of perception, rightly so, people are panicking and saying, "Okay, I need these people to understand me so they don't hurt me. Here's what I mean by trans. Here are the rules. Here's what trans is. And okay, you don't understand these people, that's non-binary, phew, we can breathe." And I get that, it's like an act of survival. But I also think we're actually much more simple when we say, I'm just not this. And I think when I start to reject it is when I've seen people think of it as a beginning and an end.I like this because it both acknowledges the panic / need for survival / group belonging that finding an identity name alleviates, and also that exploring your identity is supposed to ultimately be about freedom, not rules.
I want to believe that there is room in every identity (including "cishet man") for freedom, and that those who are questioning don't need to ever prove they are "queer enough" or "genderqueer enough" to be loved. I get why somebody might want to exclude "cishet men" and only date folks who are comfortable enough identifying otherwise, but I also get why somebody who is questioning might feel like they don't have a home anywhere. It just seems like there's a lot of harshness in the dating world and I wish there was more of Travis' energy. They seem to know what's up.
posted by a_curious_koala at 2:06 PM on July 14, 2022
While I disagree with a number of the things that liminal_shadows said, I believe his personal read of specific men he has been on dates with as functionally straight. I think it's an error to claim that someone who is interested in non-hetero sex must, by definition, be not straight-- at least in the social sense. For example, straight men who have sex with other men have long been widespread, maybe even predominant. The fact that there is now a cultural bucket for these same men to describe themselves as other than straight without risking as much privilege does not necessarily mean that anything about their actual social positionality has changed, or will ever. I think self-ID is incredibly important and revelatory, yet is also in a dance with the social-- our identities exist in relation to other people, too.
I wouldn't walk up to one of the men liminal_shadows discussed and be like "You're a fake queer!" but I also don't feel bad about maintaining a wariness within my queer communities of people who bring the full weight of social straightness with them. Sometimes you just have to recognize your privilege; I understand that as a cis white queer man my own identity affects people in the other direction, too. There are queer spaces where I sense that the presence of cis men would understandably not be appreciated, and I don't impose myself on those spaces out of some sort of entitlement accorded to me simply from identifying as "queer" (which I do identify as). And while "queer" is the most comfortable identification for me, I'm pretty sure there are also other queer people who see me as a gay man inappropriately taking on that label. That's not correct, but it's also not entirely wrong. It's both at once.
posted by dusty potato at 3:49 PM on July 14, 2022 [7 favorites]
I wouldn't walk up to one of the men liminal_shadows discussed and be like "You're a fake queer!" but I also don't feel bad about maintaining a wariness within my queer communities of people who bring the full weight of social straightness with them. Sometimes you just have to recognize your privilege; I understand that as a cis white queer man my own identity affects people in the other direction, too. There are queer spaces where I sense that the presence of cis men would understandably not be appreciated, and I don't impose myself on those spaces out of some sort of entitlement accorded to me simply from identifying as "queer" (which I do identify as). And while "queer" is the most comfortable identification for me, I'm pretty sure there are also other queer people who see me as a gay man inappropriately taking on that label. That's not correct, but it's also not entirely wrong. It's both at once.
posted by dusty potato at 3:49 PM on July 14, 2022 [7 favorites]
“ NB female-bodied folk”
Nonbinary people have non-binary bodies.
posted by Bottlecap at 10:44 AM on July 15, 2022 [3 favorites]
Nonbinary people have non-binary bodies.
posted by Bottlecap at 10:44 AM on July 15, 2022 [3 favorites]
« Older "Music for Airports" generator | L0pht Light Industries Newer »
This thread has been archived and is closed to new comments
At least I wouldn't have to explain G.G.G. to every woman I meet.
posted by Hume at 8:42 AM on July 13, 2022