all analogue, all real, all the time
July 20, 2022 3:34 PM Subscribe
Mobile Fidelity Sound Lab (MFSL or MoFi) is a record label specializing in the production of audiophile issues. Vinyl LPs known as "Original Master Recordings" and an ultra-premium deluxe vinyl series called Ultradisc One-Step costing over $100.
For compact discs MoFi use a 'Direct Stream Digital recording system' and for vinyl the GAIN 2 Ultra Analog™ system.
MoFi vinyl releases are extensively advertised as being AAA analogue.
However in July 2022 after a question raised by The 'In' Groove owner Mike Esposito, the MoFi cutting crew have admitted in an interview with Mike that they master using a DIGITAL copy.
The vinyl community is predictably outraged.
I own thousands of records. One of my best-sounding records is a late 70s classical recording that was mastered on 14-bit digital. Label is Denon PCM. I have several MoFi pressings and they do indeed sound great. I don't give a rip if there's digital in the mastering chain if it sounds good.
To me, the fun of analog is trying to get it to sound as good as a properly-mastered CD. I can get very close with 60+ year old equipment. It's supposed to be fun.
posted by TrialByMedia at 3:52 PM on July 20, 2022 [1 favorite]
To me, the fun of analog is trying to get it to sound as good as a properly-mastered CD. I can get very close with 60+ year old equipment. It's supposed to be fun.
posted by TrialByMedia at 3:52 PM on July 20, 2022 [1 favorite]
I have a few MFSL albums. They sound good, though I don't always think they're the best-sounding version.
I already knew they were overpriced (the market just isn't that big), and I'm not the least bit surprised that the marketing goes past hyperbole and pseudoscience and gibberish into outright lies.
And, that's pretty much everything audiophile, isn't it? It sounds good, it's overpriced, and some smug dude in an ugly shirt is mansplaining and bullshitting you about it.
(And I sometimes buy it, the cheap stuff anyway, because I'm a sucker.)
posted by box at 3:52 PM on July 20, 2022 [4 favorites]
I already knew they were overpriced (the market just isn't that big), and I'm not the least bit surprised that the marketing goes past hyperbole and pseudoscience and gibberish into outright lies.
And, that's pretty much everything audiophile, isn't it? It sounds good, it's overpriced, and some smug dude in an ugly shirt is mansplaining and bullshitting you about it.
(And I sometimes buy it, the cheap stuff anyway, because I'm a sucker.)
posted by box at 3:52 PM on July 20, 2022 [4 favorites]
As someone on that forum says:
"It’s impossible that they are digital because so many people on here can ‘sense the naturalness’ of analog over the ‘harsh superficial glare’ of digital. So they would have known already and told us."
So yeah. This is people tricking themselves into believing snake oil actually cures all diseases, and then being outraged when they find it's not made with 100% real snake. Fuck "audiophiles".
posted by Joakim Ziegler at 3:59 PM on July 20, 2022 [20 favorites]
"It’s impossible that they are digital because so many people on here can ‘sense the naturalness’ of analog over the ‘harsh superficial glare’ of digital. So they would have known already and told us."
So yeah. This is people tricking themselves into believing snake oil actually cures all diseases, and then being outraged when they find it's not made with 100% real snake. Fuck "audiophiles".
posted by Joakim Ziegler at 3:59 PM on July 20, 2022 [20 favorites]
I think it was Ted Gioia who pointed out that all the best analogue records were recorded at top of the line recording studios, and at budgets that would blow our mind. These recordings would sound great because they’re diamond-polished artefacts, worked on by the best engineers and technicians. I don’t want to piss on anyone’s parade for enjoying music, and people should be allowed to have nice things.
Having said that, the 100 best analogue records looks like a great list of jazz records to start streaming on your service of choice.
posted by The River Ivel at 4:02 PM on July 20, 2022 [3 favorites]
Having said that, the 100 best analogue records looks like a great list of jazz records to start streaming on your service of choice.
posted by The River Ivel at 4:02 PM on July 20, 2022 [3 favorites]
I don't think this is so much about analogue vs digital but about truth in advertising, the body language in the 'admission' video is... well I'm not quite sure what it is but it's something!
posted by Lanark at 4:05 PM on July 20, 2022 [5 favorites]
posted by Lanark at 4:05 PM on July 20, 2022 [5 favorites]
I think it was Ted Gioia who pointed out that all the best analogue records were recorded at top of the line recording studios, and at budgets that would blow our mind
This is what always gets me. Records used to sound (and be) expensive and we didn’t even know it. I’m not shitting on “music today,” but it’s a fact that making a record used to cost a hell of a lot more, and the vast majority of the people involved were stone-cold experts at what they did, using the very best equipment from start to finish.
The slow democratization of recording has brought the baseline quality up to “very good,” but has also eroded the top end quite a bit since there just isn’t as much money in recorded music anymore. The very best records of today are just not as good as the very best of 30+ years ago (or at least there are fewer of them), and it’s mostly not (anymore) the fault of digital qua digital.
That said… grossly misrepresenting your product, intentionally, even to audiophile weenies, isn’t a great look.
posted by uncleozzy at 4:20 PM on July 20, 2022 [7 favorites]
This is what always gets me. Records used to sound (and be) expensive and we didn’t even know it. I’m not shitting on “music today,” but it’s a fact that making a record used to cost a hell of a lot more, and the vast majority of the people involved were stone-cold experts at what they did, using the very best equipment from start to finish.
The slow democratization of recording has brought the baseline quality up to “very good,” but has also eroded the top end quite a bit since there just isn’t as much money in recorded music anymore. The very best records of today are just not as good as the very best of 30+ years ago (or at least there are fewer of them), and it’s mostly not (anymore) the fault of digital qua digital.
That said… grossly misrepresenting your product, intentionally, even to audiophile weenies, isn’t a great look.
posted by uncleozzy at 4:20 PM on July 20, 2022 [7 favorites]
I can see how this revelation might be a travesty to some analog purists' minds. But, there are so many factors that contribute to pressing a quality record, and the process probably varies to some degree for each MoFi release. YMMV.
I've been collecting records for some decades; the MoFi LPs I own are all a cut above and if purchased new they cost a few dollars more than what less-lauded labels typically ask. That price point seems acceptable to me, based on my own positive experiences with their products. Plus, because of MoFi's reputation (whether or not it seems deserved) their records are way more likely to retain their value, and then gain value once they are out of print.
posted by abraxasaxarba at 4:28 PM on July 20, 2022
I've been collecting records for some decades; the MoFi LPs I own are all a cut above and if purchased new they cost a few dollars more than what less-lauded labels typically ask. That price point seems acceptable to me, based on my own positive experiences with their products. Plus, because of MoFi's reputation (whether or not it seems deserved) their records are way more likely to retain their value, and then gain value once they are out of print.
posted by abraxasaxarba at 4:28 PM on July 20, 2022
Metafilter: made with 100% real snake
posted by Greg_Ace at 4:28 PM on July 20, 2022 [17 favorites]
posted by Greg_Ace at 4:28 PM on July 20, 2022 [17 favorites]
Depending on what you're doing it might be better to use a silicone based snake lubricant.
posted by aubilenon at 4:42 PM on July 20, 2022 [4 favorites]
posted by aubilenon at 4:42 PM on July 20, 2022 [4 favorites]
Was talking at lunch decades ago with some work friends and Peter was going on about some of his new audio gear. I said Peter’s on a first name basis withe the staff at the hi-fi store: they call him Mark.
posted by sjswitzer at 4:52 PM on July 20, 2022 [16 favorites]
posted by sjswitzer at 4:52 PM on July 20, 2022 [16 favorites]
MFSL used to make some great cassettes which go for crazy money now.
posted by rfs at 5:11 PM on July 20, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by rfs at 5:11 PM on July 20, 2022 [2 favorites]
For many people music is about how the song makes them feel. How it triggers emotions. Audiophiles are using their snakeoil to remove the emotion and make the enjoyment of music about the technical parts of it. The correct pressing on the correct turntable with the correct tonearm with the correct electricity coming from the wall and the correct wires connecting to the correct speakers to play the record stored in the correct ricepaper sleeve. It's all a sham designed to (I think) make emotions secondary. I enjoy hearing Peg just as much when it's played on my computer from a shitty MP3 as I would if it were from one of those 4-LP single-sided 45RPM MoFi boxes. Not that I have one.
posted by monkeymike at 5:13 PM on July 20, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by monkeymike at 5:13 PM on July 20, 2022 [1 favorite]
From "The vinyl community is predictably outraged" link:
It’s impossible that they are digital because so many people on here can ‘sense the naturalness’ of analog over the ‘harsh superficial glare’ of digital. So they would have known already and told us.
10/10 for snark.
posted by signal at 5:39 PM on July 20, 2022 [7 favorites]
It’s impossible that they are digital because so many people on here can ‘sense the naturalness’ of analog over the ‘harsh superficial glare’ of digital. So they would have known already and told us.
10/10 for snark.
posted by signal at 5:39 PM on July 20, 2022 [7 favorites]
Can we call the conspiracy to hide this fact EQanon?
posted by Jon_Evil at 6:06 PM on July 20, 2022 [21 favorites]
posted by Jon_Evil at 6:06 PM on July 20, 2022 [21 favorites]
I have a MFSL CD of Dark Side of the Moon that I picked up many years ago. I gotta say, it sounds pretty damned amazing.
posted by Thorzdad at 6:18 PM on July 20, 2022
posted by Thorzdad at 6:18 PM on July 20, 2022
I'm with Flanders and Swann on this one.
posted by The Ardship of Cambry at 6:58 PM on July 20, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by The Ardship of Cambry at 6:58 PM on July 20, 2022 [1 favorite]
A musician I knew used to say that the most important part of the studio to him were the producer's/engineer's ears. They made any equipment sound good and the best equipment sound like a direct message from God.
posted by nfalkner at 7:07 PM on July 20, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by nfalkner at 7:07 PM on July 20, 2022 [2 favorites]
When I was a kid, my parents got an actual stereo. It apparently came with a demo disc that had people walking up and down a hall and probably also some music on it too but I don't remember that part. Amusingly, the thing was a pair of walnut-colored cabinets which, for stereo separation, should have been separated by ten feet or so but, inevitably, were installed side-by-side as I'm sure pretty much everyone acquiring these substantial pieces of furniture would do, especially if they didn't have a palatial house.
Stereo was relatively new and the notion of hi-fi was just starting to gain currency. Cars were starting to have FM radio! Recorded media also improved incrementally, as did home stereos. It was amazing the sounds you could now hear if you'd grown up on AM radio.
So, I'm really sympathetic to the audiophile generation, not least because I am among them though I escaped the cult just barely. The difference between the cabinet stereo in the 60's and a mid-range "component system" in the 70's is really hard to appreciate today. And the cabinet system was really good compared to what had come before it!
We lived in an age of miracles! I didn't have a lot of money but I did save up to buy a well-regarded receiver, a Carver something. I wasn't into it enough to get a complete component system; a receiver was good enough for me. And although this receiver had an excellent-for-its-time FM receiver it had a fatal flaw I only recognized years later. It had what was at the time a revolutionary technology: a switching power supply (not to be confused with a switching, class-D in the lingo of the day, amp). Although the measured specs of the thing were impressive at the time, there was a fatal flaw: the switching supply itself made an audible noise. Small, but absolutely audible when the music was low. That didn't bother me much since I was listening to "loud music" mosty. But I thought about that a lot later. The actual physical noise didn't count in the "specs."
But speaking of switching amps... switching amps are absolutely the bomb now. They're efficient and extremely accurate. Not so in the day. Their first applications were for bullhorns, and those are just terrible. Yeah, there was a lot of nonsense about tubes, transistors, amp "classes" and I'm not here to litigate that. But class D amps were really really bad. And that's OK, because they were used for applications where low power and high amplification were important and fidelity wasn't. Gradually, people started to take it seriously.
Gallien-Krueger designed bass amps around class D amplifiers. Technology had improved enough that a class D amp could do a completely satisfactory job for a bass amp (this has to do with the sampling frequency that was practical at the time). The technology had escaped it's bullhorn phase.
Flash forward to now and pretty much every PA system uses digital amplification and it's no problem because gigahertz circuitry is now a walk in the park.
But on to production. The early days of digital recording and editing were full of a lot of promises that were only delivered much later. There were problems that had to be discovered the hard way. I think it's fair to say digital recording, mixing, and mastering has reached maturity to the point that most of the problems have been solved. But it didn't help that people denied those problems existed in the first place.
So in this transition period, a lot of people had a lot of reasons to be skeptical of digital everything. They had developed their craft, skills, and processes around analog technologies and, correctly, didn't consider digital to be superior. Early digital recording studios were a pain in the ass and produced objectively worse results. It's absolutely understandable that a Steve Albini would blow that all off since he was comfortable with and good at working in analog. Things have changed now so that that's no longer the case and someday there'll be (maybe there already is) a Bean Alstevie who works as well in digital. And, I vaguely remember Albini saying as much, that digital's OK, but it's just not for him and he has enough Ampeg tape to see him through.
Have I rambled? Yes, I have rambled! But my point is that digital is just fine and is getting better. The skeptics were not wrong and even if they were had lots of priors that would justify their skepticism. There was a lot of stuff to work through that has mostly been worked through. And, in its way, digital is a new medium with its own promises and limitations.
posted by sjswitzer at 7:16 PM on July 20, 2022 [24 favorites]
Stereo was relatively new and the notion of hi-fi was just starting to gain currency. Cars were starting to have FM radio! Recorded media also improved incrementally, as did home stereos. It was amazing the sounds you could now hear if you'd grown up on AM radio.
So, I'm really sympathetic to the audiophile generation, not least because I am among them though I escaped the cult just barely. The difference between the cabinet stereo in the 60's and a mid-range "component system" in the 70's is really hard to appreciate today. And the cabinet system was really good compared to what had come before it!
We lived in an age of miracles! I didn't have a lot of money but I did save up to buy a well-regarded receiver, a Carver something. I wasn't into it enough to get a complete component system; a receiver was good enough for me. And although this receiver had an excellent-for-its-time FM receiver it had a fatal flaw I only recognized years later. It had what was at the time a revolutionary technology: a switching power supply (not to be confused with a switching, class-D in the lingo of the day, amp). Although the measured specs of the thing were impressive at the time, there was a fatal flaw: the switching supply itself made an audible noise. Small, but absolutely audible when the music was low. That didn't bother me much since I was listening to "loud music" mosty. But I thought about that a lot later. The actual physical noise didn't count in the "specs."
But speaking of switching amps... switching amps are absolutely the bomb now. They're efficient and extremely accurate. Not so in the day. Their first applications were for bullhorns, and those are just terrible. Yeah, there was a lot of nonsense about tubes, transistors, amp "classes" and I'm not here to litigate that. But class D amps were really really bad. And that's OK, because they were used for applications where low power and high amplification were important and fidelity wasn't. Gradually, people started to take it seriously.
Gallien-Krueger designed bass amps around class D amplifiers. Technology had improved enough that a class D amp could do a completely satisfactory job for a bass amp (this has to do with the sampling frequency that was practical at the time). The technology had escaped it's bullhorn phase.
Flash forward to now and pretty much every PA system uses digital amplification and it's no problem because gigahertz circuitry is now a walk in the park.
But on to production. The early days of digital recording and editing were full of a lot of promises that were only delivered much later. There were problems that had to be discovered the hard way. I think it's fair to say digital recording, mixing, and mastering has reached maturity to the point that most of the problems have been solved. But it didn't help that people denied those problems existed in the first place.
So in this transition period, a lot of people had a lot of reasons to be skeptical of digital everything. They had developed their craft, skills, and processes around analog technologies and, correctly, didn't consider digital to be superior. Early digital recording studios were a pain in the ass and produced objectively worse results. It's absolutely understandable that a Steve Albini would blow that all off since he was comfortable with and good at working in analog. Things have changed now so that that's no longer the case and someday there'll be (maybe there already is) a Bean Alstevie who works as well in digital. And, I vaguely remember Albini saying as much, that digital's OK, but it's just not for him and he has enough Ampeg tape to see him through.
Have I rambled? Yes, I have rambled! But my point is that digital is just fine and is getting better. The skeptics were not wrong and even if they were had lots of priors that would justify their skepticism. There was a lot of stuff to work through that has mostly been worked through. And, in its way, digital is a new medium with its own promises and limitations.
posted by sjswitzer at 7:16 PM on July 20, 2022 [24 favorites]
what audiophiles think about music reproduction and what engineers, even amateur ones like me, KNOW about music reproduction are two different things
you're not going to get any better sound than what's already been recorded
signal to noise ratio in digital recordings beats any tape you might have, although the warmth of tape and its saturation can make up for that
signal to noise ratio on vinyl sucks - i had a girlfriend who had a very good late 80s stereo and when a friend attached a couple of yamaha studio monitors, the sound one could get from a record like the rascals' greatest hits was amazing - but you could still hear the rumble of the turntable and the surface noise of the grooves
cds, once they figured out the engineering and mastering (those who decided not to kill everything in the loudness wars, that is) was and is far superior
posted by pyramid termite at 7:54 PM on July 20, 2022 [9 favorites]
you're not going to get any better sound than what's already been recorded
signal to noise ratio in digital recordings beats any tape you might have, although the warmth of tape and its saturation can make up for that
signal to noise ratio on vinyl sucks - i had a girlfriend who had a very good late 80s stereo and when a friend attached a couple of yamaha studio monitors, the sound one could get from a record like the rascals' greatest hits was amazing - but you could still hear the rumble of the turntable and the surface noise of the grooves
cds, once they figured out the engineering and mastering (those who decided not to kill everything in the loudness wars, that is) was and is far superior
posted by pyramid termite at 7:54 PM on July 20, 2022 [9 favorites]
That nice warm sound you get from audiophile turntable systems & records? That's the sound of cold hard cash sliding into someone else's pocket.
posted by evilDoug at 8:08 PM on July 20, 2022 [6 favorites]
posted by evilDoug at 8:08 PM on July 20, 2022 [6 favorites]
Incidentally, "sliding cash" is my new sockpuppet name.
posted by Greg_Ace at 8:14 PM on July 20, 2022
posted by Greg_Ace at 8:14 PM on July 20, 2022
“When you hear music, after it’s over, it’s gone in the air. You can never capture it again.”
posted by Catblack at 8:29 PM on July 20, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by Catblack at 8:29 PM on July 20, 2022 [2 favorites]
Everything sounds great to me after the hand cranked 78rpm Victrola with a sharpened nail for a needle of my youth.
posted by a humble nudibranch at 8:34 PM on July 20, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by a humble nudibranch at 8:34 PM on July 20, 2022 [2 favorites]
"you're not going to get any better sound than what's already been recorded"
Thank you! There may have been some truth to the idea that you could get better sound on an audiophile system than what was used in the recording studio back when most records were mixed on Yamaha NS-10s (very uninspiring sounding speakers that became a standard for mining because they average enough that if things sounded okay on them, they'd sound good on most other speakers) and referenced on a mono Auratone cube (a small speaker that was the equivalent of how music would sound on TV). But most people/studio are mixing on fantastic sounding speakers these days. The engineer absolutely is hearing everything there is to hear. $1000 power cables, silver speaker cables, crystals placed on top of an amp, etc. aren't going to make anything sound any better. And you can spend however many tens of thousands you want on components, but you're not going to reveal anything that the person who recorded the song hasn't already heard.
Also, vinyl is nonsense, and its resurgence is a dumb hipster fad. If people were really concerned about audio quality, they'd be listening to half-inch tape, not vinyl. Almost all music of the 70s, 80s, and much of the 90s was mastered to 1/2" tape. Vinyl is one very flawed step removed from what the master sounds like.
I may release something on vinyl at some point, (purely to have something to sell at shows), but it sure as hell is going to come with a download card so people can get lossless files and listen to the music the way it's supposed to sound.
posted by jonathanhughes at 8:53 PM on July 20, 2022 [5 favorites]
Thank you! There may have been some truth to the idea that you could get better sound on an audiophile system than what was used in the recording studio back when most records were mixed on Yamaha NS-10s (very uninspiring sounding speakers that became a standard for mining because they average enough that if things sounded okay on them, they'd sound good on most other speakers) and referenced on a mono Auratone cube (a small speaker that was the equivalent of how music would sound on TV). But most people/studio are mixing on fantastic sounding speakers these days. The engineer absolutely is hearing everything there is to hear. $1000 power cables, silver speaker cables, crystals placed on top of an amp, etc. aren't going to make anything sound any better. And you can spend however many tens of thousands you want on components, but you're not going to reveal anything that the person who recorded the song hasn't already heard.
Also, vinyl is nonsense, and its resurgence is a dumb hipster fad. If people were really concerned about audio quality, they'd be listening to half-inch tape, not vinyl. Almost all music of the 70s, 80s, and much of the 90s was mastered to 1/2" tape. Vinyl is one very flawed step removed from what the master sounds like.
I may release something on vinyl at some point, (purely to have something to sell at shows), but it sure as hell is going to come with a download card so people can get lossless files and listen to the music the way it's supposed to sound.
posted by jonathanhughes at 8:53 PM on July 20, 2022 [5 favorites]
This thread is very predictably metafilter. I can't believe that I have to come on here and defend people spending waaaaayyy too much money on electronics, yet here I am. This is sports, coffee, and bad escapist fiction all over again. For my sanity, don't make me defend dog shows next.
Firstly, audiophiles and vinyl enthusiasts are not the same thing. There is crossover, absolutely, but the majority of audiophiles these days are perfectly happy with digital and their MQA streams and Roon systems. They spend most of their time arguing about speaker and headphone profiles or sharing photos of their living rooms or monitoring chairs. The vinyl snob obsessed with expensive cables that is being painted here isn't that representative of what audiophiles are interested in these days.
Secondly, the resurgence in popularity in vinyl (and tapes if you are into punk or metal) isn't because people are pursuing some kind of mythical sound purity. Elitist gatekeeper types are found in every hobby, but they also aren't really representative of those hobbies. The majority of vinyl collectors are collecting it because it is a much nicer physical product. It looks nice on a shelf and the album art is larger, the inserts are fun to leaf through, and putting on a record is a tangible way to interact with your music. You know, all the same reasons people still buy books post-ereader? It also supports the artists way more directly than streaming ever will. It really shouldn't be a surprise to see physical media growing in popularity when streaming services are, frankly, evil. They keep getting worse as they try to extract more and more value and they have business practices that combine all of the worst parts of the studio system and tech culture. I also think algorithmic playlists are further divorcing musicians from their audiences so it makes sense to me that fans are reaching back towards physical media as a way to connect to the music they love.
Lastly, these folks aren't hurting anyone. If it wasn't speakers and vinyl that they were blowing money on it would be wine, fine art, sneakers, or NFTs. At least they are spending their money (on artists and small manufacturers no less!) instead of hoarding or playing with financial systems. They are enthusiasts. Let them enthuse. There is no need to sneer at them here on the blue. It looks like there is some drama in their very niche hobby that is more about intangible authenticity than sound quality. That's interesting and would probably make for a good essay (or Phillip K Dick novel). Perhaps we can find a way to talk about that without saying they are all idiotic snobs that deserve to be lied to?
posted by forbiddencabinet at 10:03 PM on July 20, 2022 [55 favorites]
Firstly, audiophiles and vinyl enthusiasts are not the same thing. There is crossover, absolutely, but the majority of audiophiles these days are perfectly happy with digital and their MQA streams and Roon systems. They spend most of their time arguing about speaker and headphone profiles or sharing photos of their living rooms or monitoring chairs. The vinyl snob obsessed with expensive cables that is being painted here isn't that representative of what audiophiles are interested in these days.
Secondly, the resurgence in popularity in vinyl (and tapes if you are into punk or metal) isn't because people are pursuing some kind of mythical sound purity. Elitist gatekeeper types are found in every hobby, but they also aren't really representative of those hobbies. The majority of vinyl collectors are collecting it because it is a much nicer physical product. It looks nice on a shelf and the album art is larger, the inserts are fun to leaf through, and putting on a record is a tangible way to interact with your music. You know, all the same reasons people still buy books post-ereader? It also supports the artists way more directly than streaming ever will. It really shouldn't be a surprise to see physical media growing in popularity when streaming services are, frankly, evil. They keep getting worse as they try to extract more and more value and they have business practices that combine all of the worst parts of the studio system and tech culture. I also think algorithmic playlists are further divorcing musicians from their audiences so it makes sense to me that fans are reaching back towards physical media as a way to connect to the music they love.
Lastly, these folks aren't hurting anyone. If it wasn't speakers and vinyl that they were blowing money on it would be wine, fine art, sneakers, or NFTs. At least they are spending their money (on artists and small manufacturers no less!) instead of hoarding or playing with financial systems. They are enthusiasts. Let them enthuse. There is no need to sneer at them here on the blue. It looks like there is some drama in their very niche hobby that is more about intangible authenticity than sound quality. That's interesting and would probably make for a good essay (or Phillip K Dick novel). Perhaps we can find a way to talk about that without saying they are all idiotic snobs that deserve to be lied to?
posted by forbiddencabinet at 10:03 PM on July 20, 2022 [55 favorites]
A few decades later I'm still kicking myself for not swooping in and snatching all those MFSL CDs that Camelot Records (or had they turned into FYE by that point?) had in their clearance bin. Nowadays I could probably get enough for them to pay a couple months' rent (speaking of cold hard cash sliding into someone else's pocket).
posted by gtrwolf at 10:47 PM on July 20, 2022
posted by gtrwolf at 10:47 PM on July 20, 2022
As a former vinyl junkie, I wholeheartedly believe that CDs are a much better format. This didn't stop me. The thing about it was all the recordings that never made it onto CD (or if they did were a crude vinyl rip anyway). Former because this is decreasingly the case (anything unearthed these days is probably a private tape) and I decided the physicality alone was not enough to justify all the hassle.
I think new vinyl is an affectation; but it only annoys me to the extent that I think sheet music or a book of listening notes for a Special Edition would be better. People want musical artifacts, and vinyl records are very clearly that, but we should be forging new ways of doing that.
posted by solarion at 4:27 AM on July 21, 2022 [1 favorite]
I think new vinyl is an affectation; but it only annoys me to the extent that I think sheet music or a book of listening notes for a Special Edition would be better. People want musical artifacts, and vinyl records are very clearly that, but we should be forging new ways of doing that.
posted by solarion at 4:27 AM on July 21, 2022 [1 favorite]
Wow, I'm pretty upset at how hateful this thread is. There's no reason at all to call people names who care about music fidelity or say "fuck you" to them. Anyone who cares about this isn't evil, for crying out loud.
posted by tiny frying pan at 4:58 AM on July 21, 2022 [3 favorites]
posted by tiny frying pan at 4:58 AM on July 21, 2022 [3 favorites]
(Thank you forbiddencabinet).
posted by tiny frying pan at 5:00 AM on July 21, 2022
posted by tiny frying pan at 5:00 AM on July 21, 2022
I buy a reasonable amount of vinyl and the FLAC download from Bandcamp I get from the included redemption code sounds terrific.
posted by sinfony at 5:15 AM on July 21, 2022 [4 favorites]
posted by sinfony at 5:15 AM on July 21, 2022 [4 favorites]
There is nothing wrong about preferring quality sound to a highly compressed mp3 without soul.
posted by DJZouke at 5:17 AM on July 21, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by DJZouke at 5:17 AM on July 21, 2022 [2 favorites]
(On preview: this is not a diss on audiophiles, just an anecdote I wanted to share that I think touches on the content of the original post. Enjoy your music in whatever format and on whatever rig you like, kids.)
I was at a festival this weekend, and one of the highlights was finding a tiny vinyl-only venue in a corner where the DJ booth was a pair of Technics in a scrap car buried in the ground. The guy was playing old-school jungle records from the mid-90s, tracks you cannot buy online nowadays, and for which the masters have probably been lost in many cases. This stuff was largely put together on things like Ataris, using crunchy early digital samples of sounds in turn stolen from a variety of sources both analogue and digital. As far as I could see the mix then went through a digital chain powering the stacks. Everything I heard next to those massive subs must have gone through god knows how many jumps from analogue to digital and back again.
The sheer accumulated loss of fidelity involved in getting those sounds out into the air utterly dwarfs what MoFi did in their mastering, but this old raver and the rest of the extremely lively crowd were very, very happy with the experience. Because the music was good, and we enjoyed listening to it, and that's all that really matters.
posted by tomsk at 5:31 AM on July 21, 2022 [6 favorites]
I was at a festival this weekend, and one of the highlights was finding a tiny vinyl-only venue in a corner where the DJ booth was a pair of Technics in a scrap car buried in the ground. The guy was playing old-school jungle records from the mid-90s, tracks you cannot buy online nowadays, and for which the masters have probably been lost in many cases. This stuff was largely put together on things like Ataris, using crunchy early digital samples of sounds in turn stolen from a variety of sources both analogue and digital. As far as I could see the mix then went through a digital chain powering the stacks. Everything I heard next to those massive subs must have gone through god knows how many jumps from analogue to digital and back again.
The sheer accumulated loss of fidelity involved in getting those sounds out into the air utterly dwarfs what MoFi did in their mastering, but this old raver and the rest of the extremely lively crowd were very, very happy with the experience. Because the music was good, and we enjoyed listening to it, and that's all that really matters.
posted by tomsk at 5:31 AM on July 21, 2022 [6 favorites]
I lived with a musician couple for a year and a half. She is a multitalented singer/songwriter/shoegazer; he produces bands you’ve heard of and has multiple Grammys. Their vinyl setup, Technics (Panasonic) gear from the 70s, sounded amazing to my ears—but a large part of that was their grandmaster-level curation and uninhibited enthusiasm for the music they would collect and play on that setup.
I don’t have the golden ears or environmental awareness that can tell why there’s a difference between Alice Coltrane on vinyl and Alice Coltrane on Spotify, but I can hear and feel some of the differences in the experiences, at least.
posted by infinitewindow at 6:02 AM on July 21, 2022 [1 favorite]
I don’t have the golden ears or environmental awareness that can tell why there’s a difference between Alice Coltrane on vinyl and Alice Coltrane on Spotify, but I can hear and feel some of the differences in the experiences, at least.
posted by infinitewindow at 6:02 AM on July 21, 2022 [1 favorite]
tomsk - which festival? I'm so curious about the car buried in the ground.
posted by tiny frying pan at 6:40 AM on July 21, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by tiny frying pan at 6:40 AM on July 21, 2022 [1 favorite]
I'm mostly just surprised that a company with an already rather small customer base would decide to deceive that customer base, and make it even smaller.
posted by freakazoid at 7:00 AM on July 21, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by freakazoid at 7:00 AM on July 21, 2022 [1 favorite]
Thank you! There may have been some truth to the idea that you could get better sound on an audiophile system than what was used in the recording studio back when most records were mixed on Yamaha NS-10s...
To this day my go-to is a pair of Sony MDR-7506 headphones. $100, and a common item in recording studios worldwide. If they're good enough for them, they're good enough for me...
posted by mikelieman at 7:00 AM on July 21, 2022 [3 favorites]
To this day my go-to is a pair of Sony MDR-7506 headphones. $100, and a common item in recording studios worldwide. If they're good enough for them, they're good enough for me...
posted by mikelieman at 7:00 AM on July 21, 2022 [3 favorites]
I buy vinyl. I don't buy vinyl for sound quality. You can get good sound quality in a variety of ways. I buy vinyl because putting the disc on the turntable causes me to pay more attention to the music than clicking a button on my phone does. I'm more mindful of what I'm listening to.
And having it on in the background as a nice noise I'm not being attentive to is good too, I don't object to that, but sometimes I want to be specifically aware of the music and I am more likely to derive that variety of enjoyment if I have to physically handle the disc. If I had to do all that, may as well give the music an attentive hearing.
posted by Whale Oil at 7:05 AM on July 21, 2022 [12 favorites]
And having it on in the background as a nice noise I'm not being attentive to is good too, I don't object to that, but sometimes I want to be specifically aware of the music and I am more likely to derive that variety of enjoyment if I have to physically handle the disc. If I had to do all that, may as well give the music an attentive hearing.
posted by Whale Oil at 7:05 AM on July 21, 2022 [12 favorites]
The guy was playing old-school jungle records from the mid-90s, tracks you cannot buy online nowadays, and for which the masters have probably been lost in many cases.
This has always bothered me. It used to be that pressing vinyl was pretty cheap -- even in small runs -- and consequently the amount of content pressed to vinyl was immense. So much varied, niche musical -- and other -- records never -- ever -- made the transition (i.e.: weren't profitable enough to be licensed/remastered/re-released) from vinyl to CD that I've always mourned its loss.
posted by mikelieman at 7:05 AM on July 21, 2022 [3 favorites]
This has always bothered me. It used to be that pressing vinyl was pretty cheap -- even in small runs -- and consequently the amount of content pressed to vinyl was immense. So much varied, niche musical -- and other -- records never -- ever -- made the transition (i.e.: weren't profitable enough to be licensed/remastered/re-released) from vinyl to CD that I've always mourned its loss.
posted by mikelieman at 7:05 AM on July 21, 2022 [3 favorites]
I've always rolled my eyes at the folks who draw a marker around their CD edges to "reduce" laser scatter (or whatever), or those who spend thousands of dollars on speaker cable but:
1)Several years back I bought a new turntable, much more expensive than the one I'd had for decades before. It didn't come with a dust cover. As such, when I was wiping down the shelf, the rag caught and bent the needle. While waiting for replacement parts to arrive, the old turntable got swapped back into the system. My wife, who literally doesn't care about this stuff at all, remarked "I can't believe how much worse the old turntable sounds"
2)My old stereo rig was mostly set up while still in college, and I figured that after 25 years it was time to improve. The new speakers, I'm somewhat ashamed to admit, cost as much as a decent cheap car on Craigslist (but still in the 4-figure range). They sound so good, at ANY volume level (my old speakers had to be cranked up to sound decent) that the living room is now my sanctuary. My mental health is immediately improved anytime anything gets played in there.
3)Regarding analog playback, sometimes it's a relief in this modern world to know that every now and again, I can listen to something and not have that moment stored in some database somewhere waiting to be monetized.
posted by hwyengr at 7:40 AM on July 21, 2022 [4 favorites]
1)Several years back I bought a new turntable, much more expensive than the one I'd had for decades before. It didn't come with a dust cover. As such, when I was wiping down the shelf, the rag caught and bent the needle. While waiting for replacement parts to arrive, the old turntable got swapped back into the system. My wife, who literally doesn't care about this stuff at all, remarked "I can't believe how much worse the old turntable sounds"
2)My old stereo rig was mostly set up while still in college, and I figured that after 25 years it was time to improve. The new speakers, I'm somewhat ashamed to admit, cost as much as a decent cheap car on Craigslist (but still in the 4-figure range). They sound so good, at ANY volume level (my old speakers had to be cranked up to sound decent) that the living room is now my sanctuary. My mental health is immediately improved anytime anything gets played in there.
3)Regarding analog playback, sometimes it's a relief in this modern world to know that every now and again, I can listen to something and not have that moment stored in some database somewhere waiting to be monetized.
posted by hwyengr at 7:40 AM on July 21, 2022 [4 favorites]
tomsk - which festival? I'm so curious about the car buried in the ground.
It was Beat-Herder, a UK dance music oriented event towards the smaller end of things, full of loads of different venues with tons going on. There's a section in the woods called The Garage where various old vehicles are arranged for dancing on and amongst, with the aforementioned decks inside one of the vintage cars. Ace fun.
posted by tomsk at 7:41 AM on July 21, 2022 [2 favorites]
It was Beat-Herder, a UK dance music oriented event towards the smaller end of things, full of loads of different venues with tons going on. There's a section in the woods called The Garage where various old vehicles are arranged for dancing on and amongst, with the aforementioned decks inside one of the vintage cars. Ace fun.
posted by tomsk at 7:41 AM on July 21, 2022 [2 favorites]
The new speakers, I'm somewhat ashamed to admit, cost as much as a decent cheap car on Craigslist (but still in the 4-figure range). They sound so good, at ANY volume level (my old speakers had to be cranked up to sound decent) that the living room is now my sanctuary. My mental health is immediately improved anytime anything gets played in there.
In me experience, speakers were (and are) the one piece of a sound system that your money was well-spent on. Modern solid-state electronics (receivers, amps, etc.) are all pretty much reliably good to where the only part that one has to consider is the power output to match with the speakers. But, the speakers are where the real magic happens, and are well worth the investment*
*-To a point, of course. You can definitely find yourself crossing over into obsessive audiophile money-is-no-object land with speakers, but there are so many good speakers being made today in a wide price range.
posted by Thorzdad at 7:55 AM on July 21, 2022 [4 favorites]
In me experience, speakers were (and are) the one piece of a sound system that your money was well-spent on. Modern solid-state electronics (receivers, amps, etc.) are all pretty much reliably good to where the only part that one has to consider is the power output to match with the speakers. But, the speakers are where the real magic happens, and are well worth the investment*
*-To a point, of course. You can definitely find yourself crossing over into obsessive audiophile money-is-no-object land with speakers, but there are so many good speakers being made today in a wide price range.
posted by Thorzdad at 7:55 AM on July 21, 2022 [4 favorites]
I’ve recently come to the conclusion that vinyl is the best way to listen to music because like live the exact sound will probably only happen once. The next time you put it on there will be some dust or a tiny scratch or something that will effect the playback in someway to make it unique.
Also the only song that the system I’m listening to it on matters for me is Rob Zombie’s Dragula . I really only love it coming out of the monitor speakers at KUOI.
posted by Uncle at 9:45 AM on July 21, 2022
Also the only song that the system I’m listening to it on matters for me is Rob Zombie’s Dragula . I really only love it coming out of the monitor speakers at KUOI.
posted by Uncle at 9:45 AM on July 21, 2022
The strange infatuation with all-analog recording really stands out when one of the 100 top AAA albums linked in the post is the Tron soundtrack. Wendy Carlos playing a pretty rudimentary digital synth. Only magnetic recording tech can capture the purity of those squared-off sine waves.
posted by thecjm at 10:41 AM on July 21, 2022
posted by thecjm at 10:41 AM on July 21, 2022
you're not going to get any better sound than what's already been recorded
Of course I can, and someone who really knows what they’re doing can really work wonders here. Easily well over half the amateur recordings I’ve worked with benefit instantly from the judicious use of a high-pass filter, for instance. Mixing, mastering and remastering are very much their own sets of skills. You’re not going to improve the *performance* (although you can do that too if you have access to multiple takes for comps). But you can sure as hell improve the sound of the recording.
Some audiophile stuff is definitely woo, but there’s plenty of actual engineering that goes into this field, and it’s really not that hard to do a little basic research and listening to figure out where the line is.
posted by aspersioncast at 10:49 AM on July 21, 2022 [9 favorites]
Of course I can, and someone who really knows what they’re doing can really work wonders here. Easily well over half the amateur recordings I’ve worked with benefit instantly from the judicious use of a high-pass filter, for instance. Mixing, mastering and remastering are very much their own sets of skills. You’re not going to improve the *performance* (although you can do that too if you have access to multiple takes for comps). But you can sure as hell improve the sound of the recording.
Some audiophile stuff is definitely woo, but there’s plenty of actual engineering that goes into this field, and it’s really not that hard to do a little basic research and listening to figure out where the line is.
posted by aspersioncast at 10:49 AM on July 21, 2022 [9 favorites]
Just to be clear, a lot of the analog vs. digital debate is firmly on the woo side of that line.
posted by aspersioncast at 10:52 AM on July 21, 2022 [3 favorites]
posted by aspersioncast at 10:52 AM on July 21, 2022 [3 favorites]
you're not going to get any better sound than what's already been recorded
You’re not going to improve the *performance*
[deleted post about Big Data/ML/AI audio enhancement]
posted by sammyo at 11:10 AM on July 21, 2022
You’re not going to improve the *performance*
[deleted post about Big Data/ML/AI audio enhancement]
posted by sammyo at 11:10 AM on July 21, 2022
Mixing, mastering and remastering are very much their own sets of skills.
Seriously. Most people don't understand what mixing, mastering or remastering even are. But they can VASTLY improve recordings, so that anyone could tell the difference.
posted by tiny frying pan at 11:14 AM on July 21, 2022 [5 favorites]
Seriously. Most people don't understand what mixing, mastering or remastering even are. But they can VASTLY improve recordings, so that anyone could tell the difference.
posted by tiny frying pan at 11:14 AM on July 21, 2022 [5 favorites]
One thing this fiasco should establish is that good digitally mastered vinyl can sound very good and to most ears be indistinguishable from an all-analogue mastered vinyl. DSD digital can be very good.
But still, it will be interesting to see what this deception does to MoFi's sales, I think a lot of buyers will be thinking, 'if they lied about this, then what else are they telling fibs about?' how many of their 'master recordings' are really from copy tapes or worse?
Are you really going to pay a 10X premium to buy from a company who's credibility is shot to pieces when there are plenty of alternatives (Analogue Productions/ Intervention/ Speakers Corner).
posted by Lanark at 12:16 PM on July 21, 2022
But still, it will be interesting to see what this deception does to MoFi's sales, I think a lot of buyers will be thinking, 'if they lied about this, then what else are they telling fibs about?' how many of their 'master recordings' are really from copy tapes or worse?
Are you really going to pay a 10X premium to buy from a company who's credibility is shot to pieces when there are plenty of alternatives (Analogue Productions/ Intervention/ Speakers Corner).
posted by Lanark at 12:16 PM on July 21, 2022
>If people were really concerned about audio quality, they'd be listening to half-inch tape, not vinyl. Almost all music of the 70s, 80s, and much of the 90s was mastered to 1/2" tape.
Frequency Modulation encoding on Laserdisk? Any way I can haz no degradation of the source material and a wide frequency range of that format?
In terms of the source material of this FPP, there are strange whining sounds.
posted by k3ninho at 2:47 PM on July 21, 2022
Frequency Modulation encoding on Laserdisk? Any way I can haz no degradation of the source material and a wide frequency range of that format?
In terms of the source material of this FPP, there are strange whining sounds.
posted by k3ninho at 2:47 PM on July 21, 2022
You’re not going to improve the *performance* (although you can do that too if you have access to multiple takes for comps). But you can sure as hell improve the sound of the recording.
no, you're describing the processing that leads to the master recording - i was talking about the finished product, the one that you buy in the store
and actually, any time you put a filter on something, you are affecting the timing as it creates a delay - there are ways to compensate for that and there are reasons to believe that it's good trade off but it can be very tricky to process sound without dealing with negative sound effects
it's a give and take process and saying that it makes it "sound better" is a simplification
truth is, just by putting a microphone in front of something means you're already altering the sound - and no, it's not "better" or "improved" sound, it's just more accessible and easier to change for preservation
posted by pyramid termite at 2:59 PM on July 21, 2022
no, you're describing the processing that leads to the master recording - i was talking about the finished product, the one that you buy in the store
and actually, any time you put a filter on something, you are affecting the timing as it creates a delay - there are ways to compensate for that and there are reasons to believe that it's good trade off but it can be very tricky to process sound without dealing with negative sound effects
it's a give and take process and saying that it makes it "sound better" is a simplification
truth is, just by putting a microphone in front of something means you're already altering the sound - and no, it's not "better" or "improved" sound, it's just more accessible and easier to change for preservation
posted by pyramid termite at 2:59 PM on July 21, 2022
Yes, transducers don’t work the same as ears.
Looking back I think I see what you’re saying. You wrote “you're not going to get any better sound than what's already been recorded.” I disagree. The very existence of “the finished product, the one that you buy in the store” is actually a decent argument for my position.
But I think what you’re arguing is that the reproduction put out for distribution is going to be lower quality than the original capture/master? If so I agree that’s almost always the case, even if it’s theoretically possible to put out your demo at 24bit 192k.
posted by aspersioncast at 8:57 PM on July 21, 2022
Looking back I think I see what you’re saying. You wrote “you're not going to get any better sound than what's already been recorded.” I disagree. The very existence of “the finished product, the one that you buy in the store” is actually a decent argument for my position.
But I think what you’re arguing is that the reproduction put out for distribution is going to be lower quality than the original capture/master? If so I agree that’s almost always the case, even if it’s theoretically possible to put out your demo at 24bit 192k.
posted by aspersioncast at 8:57 PM on July 21, 2022
If your metric for quality is fidelity to the master recording, it is necessarily true that no reproduction in any medium can be better; equivalence is the best you can aim for. It also happens to be true that digital is the only medium that can approach equivalence. If your metric is anything else then it’s all a matter of preference anyway.
posted by sinfony at 12:01 AM on July 22, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by sinfony at 12:01 AM on July 22, 2022 [1 favorite]
I just wanted to say that I would be the prime target for audiophile marketing if I didn't spend all that time in live music production and came to the conclusion that the possible, potentially marginal gains from audiophile equipment couldn't compete with the availability and affordability of used PA gear. More of my "If it's what the performers are using to make the music, it's good enough for me." logic. e.g.: My subwoofers are a pair of venerable EV-181 fed by a modest 1100W amp (that I do not get to unlimber enough, sadly...)
posted by mikelieman at 4:58 AM on July 22, 2022
posted by mikelieman at 4:58 AM on July 22, 2022
We have an old wind-up Victrola that we sometimes drag out for parties. That sound is ineffable, a loud honking midrange only, with some scratchy gear sounds.
There's nothing like the sound of a good vinyl record on a good sound system. But a decent digital system can maybe sound as good?
The history of audio in the 20th century was a long battle against the noise floor, and digital won, as it should. With a few overtone artifacts.
A functional mechanical vinyl turntable is better than an old CD player already. Who knows what the future might hold?
posted by ovvl at 7:18 PM on July 22, 2022 [1 favorite]
There's nothing like the sound of a good vinyl record on a good sound system. But a decent digital system can maybe sound as good?
The history of audio in the 20th century was a long battle against the noise floor, and digital won, as it should. With a few overtone artifacts.
A functional mechanical vinyl turntable is better than an old CD player already. Who knows what the future might hold?
posted by ovvl at 7:18 PM on July 22, 2022 [1 favorite]
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Only $799 per box.
...
The world is on fire and Europe is at war and the US is sliding into religious fascism. So what are these people doing? They aren't just putting their time and money into luxury goods, they aren't just wasting those resources on fake luxury goods, they're getting angry that their bullshit is being called out. No sympathy here.
posted by happyinmotion at 3:45 PM on July 20, 2022 [13 favorites]