Pig butchering
July 21, 2022 10:44 AM Subscribe
"U.S. state and federal investigators are being inundated with reports from people who’ve lost hundreds of thousands or millions of dollars in connection with a complex investment scam known as 'pig butchering.' ... As documented in a series of investigative reports published over the past year across Asia, the people creating these phony dating profiles are largely men and women from China and neighboring countries who have been kidnapped and trafficked to places like Cambodia, where they are forced to scam complete strangers over the Internet — day after day."
Vice found many of the people forced to work in pig-butchering scams are being held in Chinese-owned casinos operating in Cambodia. Many of those casinos were newly built when the Covid pandemic hit. As the new casinos and hotels sat empty, organized crime groups saw an opportunity to use these facilities to generate huge income streams, and many foreign travelers stranded in neighboring countries were eventually trafficked to these scam centers.
Hearing about these scams recently - and the fantastical returns many of them dangle in front of their targets once trust is established - got me thinking that some education in Marxism might be useful. All investment profit comes from exploitation and extraction of surplus value. If you can't identify who's being exploited - workers in factories, clerks in stores, miners underground, office drones - then it's probably you. You've got to make sure you're exploiting someone when you're planning your retirement.
posted by clawsoon at 11:02 AM on July 21, 2022 [21 favorites]
posted by clawsoon at 11:02 AM on July 21, 2022 [21 favorites]
Yo dawg, we heard you liked scams, so we put a catfish in your crypto so you can get scammed while you get scammed
posted by Jon_Evil at 11:41 AM on July 21, 2022 [26 favorites]
posted by Jon_Evil at 11:41 AM on July 21, 2022 [26 favorites]
With the crypto investment places and trading sites going down like dominoes, what happens to these people once the scam gets unprofitable? Or, alternatively, what if the cartels decide to reopen the places as casinos? Do they just let people go, or is it worse than that?
posted by GenjiandProust at 11:45 AM on July 21, 2022 [3 favorites]
posted by GenjiandProust at 11:45 AM on July 21, 2022 [3 favorites]
My friend and I see this on Grindr all the time: ridiculously hot guys who are interested in long-term friendships and investment opportunities. I thought these were just garden-variety crypto goons, but I'm pretty sad to learn the people behind these profiles may well be victims of trafficking. I wonder if there are things the companies behind this and other apps can do to help authorities.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 12:10 PM on July 21, 2022 [5 favorites]
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 12:10 PM on July 21, 2022 [5 favorites]
The trafficking angle is reminding me of the recent metafilter post about Sir Mo Farah. A lot of comments in that thread about how sex trafficking is actually relatively rare compared to other forms of trafficking and forced labor.
posted by subdee at 12:25 PM on July 21, 2022 [11 favorites]
posted by subdee at 12:25 PM on July 21, 2022 [11 favorites]
If you can't identify who's being exploited - workers in factories, clerks in stores, miners underground, office drones - then it's probably you.
Oh, indeed.
Also, I belong to a single librarians' group on FB, and catfish/scam spotting is the local sport.
posted by Halloween Jack at 12:27 PM on July 21, 2022 [6 favorites]
Oh, indeed.
Also, I belong to a single librarians' group on FB, and catfish/scam spotting is the local sport.
posted by Halloween Jack at 12:27 PM on July 21, 2022 [6 favorites]
ridiculously hot guys who are interested in long-term friendships and investment opportunities.
I would've assumed that was a euphemistic double entendre. Making a deposit ya know. I never would've imagined taking a claim about "investment opportunities" seriously in a dating or hookup app.
posted by Ickster at 12:28 PM on July 21, 2022 [2 favorites]
I would've assumed that was a euphemistic double entendre. Making a deposit ya know. I never would've imagined taking a claim about "investment opportunities" seriously in a dating or hookup app.
posted by Ickster at 12:28 PM on July 21, 2022 [2 favorites]
It amazes me the niche kink personals subreddits that are basically all scammers. Like, how do you even find some of those places without a concentrated search?
posted by Jacen at 12:43 PM on July 21, 2022
posted by Jacen at 12:43 PM on July 21, 2022
many foreign travelers stranded in neighboring countries were eventually trafficked to these scam centers.
Every day I hear the worst thing I've ever heard.
posted by bleep at 1:37 PM on July 21, 2022 [25 favorites]
Every day I hear the worst thing I've ever heard.
posted by bleep at 1:37 PM on July 21, 2022 [25 favorites]
I was reading about this phenomenon just the other day because I've been receiving tons of phishing texts and whatsapp messages. These articles about Shwe Kokko in Myanmar are fascinating and depressing.
Scam City: How the coup brought Shwe Kokko back to life
The mystery man behind the Shwe Kokko project
posted by nikoniko at 2:00 PM on July 21, 2022 [7 favorites]
Scam City: How the coup brought Shwe Kokko back to life
The mystery man behind the Shwe Kokko project
posted by nikoniko at 2:00 PM on July 21, 2022 [7 favorites]
I too have had a bunch of rando text messages the last two days, that feel a lot like these types of attempts.
posted by Windopaene at 2:46 PM on July 21, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by Windopaene at 2:46 PM on July 21, 2022 [1 favorite]
A lot of comments in that thread about how sex trafficking is actually relatively rare compared to other forms of trafficking and forced labor.
Correct. It depends on location but sex trafficking accounts for 2-25% of labor trafficking. The only way to make it to greater proportion is to redefine all consensual adult sex work as trafficking, which is why various charities that depended on trafficking funding to stay afloat collaborated to do exactly that.
posted by Ardnamurchan at 2:48 PM on July 21, 2022 [10 favorites]
Correct. It depends on location but sex trafficking accounts for 2-25% of labor trafficking. The only way to make it to greater proportion is to redefine all consensual adult sex work as trafficking, which is why various charities that depended on trafficking funding to stay afloat collaborated to do exactly that.
posted by Ardnamurchan at 2:48 PM on July 21, 2022 [10 favorites]
Is this something that universal basic income for life would cure?
posted by asok at 2:50 PM on July 21, 2022
posted by asok at 2:50 PM on July 21, 2022
A seemingly well-educated and recently-widowed 72 yr old I know, and she is an attorney no less, got a big makeover, then was contacted by a "retired US army general", who said he wanted to move back from Afghanistan and marry her, but had to sell his house first, and if she could "loan him $800,000" he could come right away. She never saw a video or had even heard his voice. She still thinks he'll be showing up soon.
posted by StickyCarpet at 2:52 PM on July 21, 2022 [11 favorites]
posted by StickyCarpet at 2:52 PM on July 21, 2022 [11 favorites]
Probably not. Something I consider under-recognized in the general UBI rhetoric is that whatever it is, it's probably not going to be enough to support a significant drug or gambling habit. Which means you'll still have a nontrivial population of desperate people vulnerable to being trafficked.
posted by praemunire at 2:53 PM on July 21, 2022 [3 favorites]
posted by praemunire at 2:53 PM on July 21, 2022 [3 favorites]
...she actually sent $800,000?
posted by tavella at 3:08 PM on July 21, 2022 [4 favorites]
posted by tavella at 3:08 PM on July 21, 2022 [4 favorites]
I never would've imagined taking a claim about "investment opportunities" seriously in a dating or hookup app.
I'm paraphrasing when saying "investment opportunities" — the language I am referring to is obviously more oblique and generalized than that.
But like the article says, they move out of Grindr (or whatever dating/hookup app) and into Whatsapp for longer conversations that do indeed go in that territory.
At first, it was kind of fun to string them along to see how long it took to get to can't-miss crypto opportunities. But now that I know there are exploited human beings on that end, it's not so much fun. Even if their fake profile pics are easy on the eyes.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 3:24 PM on July 21, 2022 [5 favorites]
I'm paraphrasing when saying "investment opportunities" — the language I am referring to is obviously more oblique and generalized than that.
But like the article says, they move out of Grindr (or whatever dating/hookup app) and into Whatsapp for longer conversations that do indeed go in that territory.
At first, it was kind of fun to string them along to see how long it took to get to can't-miss crypto opportunities. But now that I know there are exploited human beings on that end, it's not so much fun. Even if their fake profile pics are easy on the eyes.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 3:24 PM on July 21, 2022 [5 favorites]
...she actually sent $800,000?
Yes. I found out about this because she asked me how to buy $30K more in bitcoin, and I'm "what for?" She told me the story, and I was, that doesn't sound like a good idea, so I didn't facilitate it. She said, "I'm getting old, I still have $2M liquid, so I'll take the chance, what other options do I have?".
The pitch must have been very specifically targeted psychologically, and must have been a pretty slick script.
posted by StickyCarpet at 3:29 PM on July 21, 2022 [11 favorites]
Yes. I found out about this because she asked me how to buy $30K more in bitcoin, and I'm "what for?" She told me the story, and I was, that doesn't sound like a good idea, so I didn't facilitate it. She said, "I'm getting old, I still have $2M liquid, so I'll take the chance, what other options do I have?".
The pitch must have been very specifically targeted psychologically, and must have been a pretty slick script.
posted by StickyCarpet at 3:29 PM on July 21, 2022 [11 favorites]
I know someone who was tricked into wiring 40,000 to Peru and no one at their bank even blinked an eye and now the money is just gone, no paper trail. There are no safeguards for people. People should really talk to their elderly relatives about this. There are very few to none legitimate reasons to wire money and if it's legitimate then you can ask a bunch of people about it and they'll all say yes.
posted by bleep at 3:32 PM on July 21, 2022 [7 favorites]
posted by bleep at 3:32 PM on July 21, 2022 [7 favorites]
"I'm getting old, I still have $2M liquid, so I'll take the chance, what other options do I have?".
$2M and what option do you have? Put your feet up and live on your money!
posted by clawsoon at 3:37 PM on July 21, 2022 [13 favorites]
$2M and what option do you have? Put your feet up and live on your money!
posted by clawsoon at 3:37 PM on July 21, 2022 [13 favorites]
Once again, cryptocurrencies bring out the best in humanity.
posted by acb at 3:42 PM on July 21, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by acb at 3:42 PM on July 21, 2022 [2 favorites]
Put your feet up and live on your money!
The context in her life, is her recently-deceased husband of 50 years was her first and only boyfriend, and they both had adopted kind of an "old person" look and demeanor. Then she had a (very impressive) age-defying makeover, new clothes, new hair, and to some extent new face. She was looking for a late chance at new romance.
posted by StickyCarpet at 3:57 PM on July 21, 2022 [9 favorites]
The context in her life, is her recently-deceased husband of 50 years was her first and only boyfriend, and they both had adopted kind of an "old person" look and demeanor. Then she had a (very impressive) age-defying makeover, new clothes, new hair, and to some extent new face. She was looking for a late chance at new romance.
posted by StickyCarpet at 3:57 PM on July 21, 2022 [9 favorites]
Ah, so looking for options for a partner, not so much options for money?
posted by clawsoon at 3:58 PM on July 21, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by clawsoon at 3:58 PM on July 21, 2022 [1 favorite]
Only other con I know of like that was told to me by the teller at my bank, she said some guy knocked on her mother's door and somehow got her mother to hand him all of her jewelry and valuables in a cloth bag. The teller said, "My mother has been around the block and is not stupid, that guy must have been an actual hypnotist, mom knew within minutes it was wrong, but said the guy somehow bedazzled her".
posted by StickyCarpet at 4:12 PM on July 21, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by StickyCarpet at 4:12 PM on July 21, 2022 [2 favorites]
The context in her life, is her recently-deceased husband of 50 years was her first and only boyfriend, and they both had adopted kind of an "old person" look and demeanor. Then she had a (very impressive) age-defying makeover, new clothes, new hair, and to some extent new face. She was looking for a late chance at new romance.
Wooow. I guess you are not in a close enough relationship to Have A Conversation, but damn! Plus I feel like a well put together woman with nearly $3M in cash would have options in the real world, even if 72. Not that you can't get romance-conned face to face, but you might at least get some fun along the way.
I mean, I know I'm not immune to cons because no one is totally, but the few times I've potentially run into them, the moment anything escalated beyond $50 or so, the hmmm... factor started to kick in. I just boggle that people can talk people out of hundreds of thousands with these frankly crude methods, and no circuit breakers ever kick in.
posted by tavella at 5:09 PM on July 21, 2022 [4 favorites]
Wooow. I guess you are not in a close enough relationship to Have A Conversation, but damn! Plus I feel like a well put together woman with nearly $3M in cash would have options in the real world, even if 72. Not that you can't get romance-conned face to face, but you might at least get some fun along the way.
I mean, I know I'm not immune to cons because no one is totally, but the few times I've potentially run into them, the moment anything escalated beyond $50 or so, the hmmm... factor started to kick in. I just boggle that people can talk people out of hundreds of thousands with these frankly crude methods, and no circuit breakers ever kick in.
posted by tavella at 5:09 PM on July 21, 2022 [4 favorites]
There's actual research into the fact that smart, educated people are easier to con because their self image keeps them from accepting the fact that they are being conned.
posted by signal at 5:19 PM on July 21, 2022 [43 favorites]
posted by signal at 5:19 PM on July 21, 2022 [43 favorites]
The person I know who this happened to is every bit as mystified & shocked that they fell for it as we all are. I tried to convince them that most mammals' behavior is predictable & easy to coerce if you know how. It's just how we are for whatever reason.
posted by bleep at 5:42 PM on July 21, 2022 [3 favorites]
posted by bleep at 5:42 PM on July 21, 2022 [3 favorites]
I worry that some flippers have created a relationship with people next door to them, and they could have signed papers after pie and ice cream, they don't even remember. Something happens to them and no one will ever know how the sale papers came to be signed. A lot of stuff goes on these days, a whole new era for unkindness. So travelers wanting to go home and trapped while traveling, become enslaved.
posted by Oyéah at 6:06 PM on July 21, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by Oyéah at 6:06 PM on July 21, 2022 [1 favorite]
not in a close enough relationship to Have A Conversation
My relationship to her is she notarizes documents for me at all hours and at short notice, and I fix her printer jams. I met her because an adjacent doctor's clinic is run by an old friend, and he recently converted to an aggressive experimental aging clinic (maybe that had something to do with her makeover). A few years ago I walked in the wrong office door and met her and her husband.
posted by StickyCarpet at 6:14 PM on July 21, 2022 [1 favorite]
My relationship to her is she notarizes documents for me at all hours and at short notice, and I fix her printer jams. I met her because an adjacent doctor's clinic is run by an old friend, and he recently converted to an aggressive experimental aging clinic (maybe that had something to do with her makeover). A few years ago I walked in the wrong office door and met her and her husband.
posted by StickyCarpet at 6:14 PM on July 21, 2022 [1 favorite]
My father told me he got conned as a young man, and this is a classic con. Some guy shows him a satchel with a huge amount of real money in it, and a notice of reward offered for the return of what was "dropped in a bank delivery". Lots of walking around the block, blah, blah, the guy says for some reason he personally can't claim the reward, travel, immigration status, etc., so he sold my father the "bag of cash" for one half the supposed reward. Of course the real money was slight of hand swapped with cut up newspapers. That's some pre-internet vaudeville kind of con.
posted by StickyCarpet at 6:39 PM on July 21, 2022 [7 favorites]
posted by StickyCarpet at 6:39 PM on July 21, 2022 [7 favorites]
I'll take the chance, what other options do I have?
Loneliness is the worst.
People preying on it, people trafficked to prey on it. Sometimes, humans are the worst.
posted by theora55 at 7:04 PM on July 21, 2022 [12 favorites]
Loneliness is the worst.
People preying on it, people trafficked to prey on it. Sometimes, humans are the worst.
posted by theora55 at 7:04 PM on July 21, 2022 [12 favorites]
StickyCarpet, that’s a variation on the green goods scam. It’s a classic.
posted by Slinga at 7:14 PM on July 21, 2022 [5 favorites]
posted by Slinga at 7:14 PM on July 21, 2022 [5 favorites]
There's actual research into the fact that smart, educated people are easier to con because their self image keeps them from accepting the fact that they are being conned.
Oh, I kind of understand how people, once they are in the con and have lost money, are very resistant to believing they were conned. What I don't understand is how (barring dementia or other mental incapacity) you could possibly get to the point of being about to ship *$800,000* off to a *text message* and at no point an alarm bell goes off? At least make people work at conning you! At least be romanced by a slick talking older gentleman in real life before you start giving away your life savings!
posted by tavella at 7:17 PM on July 21, 2022 [9 favorites]
Oh, I kind of understand how people, once they are in the con and have lost money, are very resistant to believing they were conned. What I don't understand is how (barring dementia or other mental incapacity) you could possibly get to the point of being about to ship *$800,000* off to a *text message* and at no point an alarm bell goes off? At least make people work at conning you! At least be romanced by a slick talking older gentleman in real life before you start giving away your life savings!
posted by tavella at 7:17 PM on July 21, 2022 [9 favorites]
Holy shit. The kidnapping and forcing people to run these scams is what elevates this far above the now banal evil of a romeo scam.
Just when I think all the depths of hell have been plumbed.
An in-law of one of my immediate family members lost 100% of her savings just around retirement age through a Romeo scam, and as a result is still working, with severe health issues. An old housemate's grandmother recently fell for a "your grandson is in jail, needs bail money, and is so ashamed you can't tell his wife," scam to the tune of more than 10k. They trolled facebook for enough details that she fell for it. People have tried to lure me in with employment, housing, and romance scams, unsuccessfully thank god. My mother gets scam calls all the time and finally canceled her debit card in desperation because giving to "disabled veterans" turned out to mean we are going to hit your account and hit it hard, repeatedly.
It's everywhere now. Scams did not exist on this level when 15-20 years ago, and the multinational and kidnapping angles multiply the scope of the evil beyond belief.
I've seen the whatsapp crypto scam logs posted to reddit. If anyone wants to stay abreast of trends, screenshots of the latest scam always get posted to the the reddit scammer forums.
posted by liminal_shadows at 7:23 PM on July 21, 2022 [9 favorites]
Just when I think all the depths of hell have been plumbed.
An in-law of one of my immediate family members lost 100% of her savings just around retirement age through a Romeo scam, and as a result is still working, with severe health issues. An old housemate's grandmother recently fell for a "your grandson is in jail, needs bail money, and is so ashamed you can't tell his wife," scam to the tune of more than 10k. They trolled facebook for enough details that she fell for it. People have tried to lure me in with employment, housing, and romance scams, unsuccessfully thank god. My mother gets scam calls all the time and finally canceled her debit card in desperation because giving to "disabled veterans" turned out to mean we are going to hit your account and hit it hard, repeatedly.
It's everywhere now. Scams did not exist on this level when 15-20 years ago, and the multinational and kidnapping angles multiply the scope of the evil beyond belief.
I've seen the whatsapp crypto scam logs posted to reddit. If anyone wants to stay abreast of trends, screenshots of the latest scam always get posted to the the reddit scammer forums.
posted by liminal_shadows at 7:23 PM on July 21, 2022 [9 favorites]
Loneliness really is crap. My dad, the Original and Still Champion Penny-Pincher, the guy who wouldn't turn over an account he was trustee of that had some of my money in it to me when I became an adult, this guy...
... cosigned a car loan and a credit card with a woman he'd been going out with for a mere few weeks. Yeah, no, it went about how you'd expect. My sister and I were seriously starting to debate his competency, this was just so transparently foolish and so out-of-character for him.
Could have been worse. He canceled the card and repossessed the car. Out a few thousand, which thanks be he could absorb.
posted by humbug at 7:25 PM on July 21, 2022 [4 favorites]
... cosigned a car loan and a credit card with a woman he'd been going out with for a mere few weeks. Yeah, no, it went about how you'd expect. My sister and I were seriously starting to debate his competency, this was just so transparently foolish and so out-of-character for him.
Could have been worse. He canceled the card and repossessed the car. Out a few thousand, which thanks be he could absorb.
posted by humbug at 7:25 PM on July 21, 2022 [4 favorites]
Slinga: that’s a variation on the green goods scam. It’s a classic
That story gave me a sad image of some guy with a laundered suit, a brown fedora, and spit shined shoes, (and probably as you say, a ringer accomplice, explaining all the walking around the block), and this guy spends his lonely nights sitting in some fleabag SRO flophouse, meticulously cutting and trimming newspapers, and packaging them in bank wrappers.
What's extra sad about that scenario, is that back in the post-war 40's and early 50's, all you really needed to legitimately succeed was a laundered suit, a brown fedora, spit shined shoes, and a briefcase. (And being a man, of course)
posted by StickyCarpet at 7:42 PM on July 21, 2022 [2 favorites]
That story gave me a sad image of some guy with a laundered suit, a brown fedora, and spit shined shoes, (and probably as you say, a ringer accomplice, explaining all the walking around the block), and this guy spends his lonely nights sitting in some fleabag SRO flophouse, meticulously cutting and trimming newspapers, and packaging them in bank wrappers.
What's extra sad about that scenario, is that back in the post-war 40's and early 50's, all you really needed to legitimately succeed was a laundered suit, a brown fedora, spit shined shoes, and a briefcase. (And being a man, of course)
posted by StickyCarpet at 7:42 PM on July 21, 2022 [2 favorites]
liminal_shadows, can you recommend which subreddits i can bookmark to stay up to date? And yeah, where I am these Romeo scams are just called love scams over here, though the crypto part is the new bit along with the kidnapping. There are also the Macau scams which are basically frightening you with a random call about how you're on the hook for a tax bill because you've been named an accomplice in a police investigation.
posted by cendawanita at 8:55 PM on July 21, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by cendawanita at 8:55 PM on July 21, 2022 [1 favorite]
What I don't understand is how (barring dementia or other mental incapacity) you could possibly get to the point of being about to ship *$800,000* off to a *text message* and at no point an alarm bell goes off?
They usually start with a much smaller amount. So after the first transfer the Doctor or whoever can't stop sending more money, or they have to admit that they got scammed. And they are a Doctor, not just a regular idiot, they couldn't have gotten scammed, so they send more.
posted by Iax at 1:23 AM on July 22, 2022 [5 favorites]
They usually start with a much smaller amount. So after the first transfer the Doctor or whoever can't stop sending more money, or they have to admit that they got scammed. And they are a Doctor, not just a regular idiot, they couldn't have gotten scammed, so they send more.
posted by Iax at 1:23 AM on July 22, 2022 [5 favorites]
We need to give people some basic education in how to recognise this stuff. A couple of months ago in Paris I saw some middle-aged guy starting to get shouty about being scammed at Three Card Monte, and we left just as the dealer's muscle were moving in to dampen the situation. Three Card Monte is five hundred years old, but it seems there are enough people who don't know it's always a scam for it to still be profitable enough to support a small posse (dealer, shill, a couple of heavies, maybe others).
posted by Hogshead at 3:13 AM on July 22, 2022 [3 favorites]
posted by Hogshead at 3:13 AM on July 22, 2022 [3 favorites]
So if I get one of these texts, is there any advice I can text back on the chance it's from someone who is being held against their will? I suspect that everything is monitored and I might be making things worse, but I hate the thought that some of these people are captives.
posted by Epixonti at 4:39 AM on July 22, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by Epixonti at 4:39 AM on July 22, 2022 [2 favorites]
I've had separate experiences of being in a relationship that cost me an ever-increasing amount of money and investing in a company that turned out to be a scam, but so far I haven't experienced the combination. I'm not sure if those experiences make me doubly inoculated or doubly vulnerable.
Perhaps someone should overdub Frankie Valli's hit:
You're just too good to be true
Can't take my eyes off of you SO YOU PROBABLY ARE
posted by clawsoon at 5:04 AM on July 22, 2022 [2 favorites]
Perhaps someone should overdub Frankie Valli's hit:
You're just too good to be true
posted by clawsoon at 5:04 AM on July 22, 2022 [2 favorites]
but I hate the thought that some of these people are captives.
...and that emotion could probably be used to scam you out of even more money.
posted by clawsoon at 5:06 AM on July 22, 2022 [8 favorites]
...and that emotion could probably be used to scam you out of even more money.
posted by clawsoon at 5:06 AM on July 22, 2022 [8 favorites]
I think people need emotional training in saying no, not just intellectual training in recognizing scams.
posted by Nancy Lebovitz at 5:17 AM on July 22, 2022 [20 favorites]
posted by Nancy Lebovitz at 5:17 AM on July 22, 2022 [20 favorites]
I think people need emotional training in saying no, not just intellectual training in recognizing scams.
That's a really important point. It reminds me that the "yes ladder" is "extremely important for anyone in the business world." It's a psychological trick that people who are trying to sell us stuff take advantage of all the time.
posted by clawsoon at 5:34 AM on July 22, 2022 [9 favorites]
That's a really important point. It reminds me that the "yes ladder" is "extremely important for anyone in the business world." It's a psychological trick that people who are trying to sell us stuff take advantage of all the time.
posted by clawsoon at 5:34 AM on July 22, 2022 [9 favorites]
Recalling another detail of the "satchel of real money" scam my father fell for: The scammer had my dad go through the satchel and count and confirm that the real money was all in there, matching the account of the reward flyer, then he asked my father to use his own handkerchief and knot it tightly around the short handle loops as a kind of seal. I guess one tricky trick was how to swap the money out, that was tied in by my father's own handkerchief. Maybe the hand-off ringer swapped the handles with a different dummy satchel, or maybe a false bottom. I think the key to the scam was having the mark see and touch a lot of money, and that can kind of blind people.
posted by StickyCarpet at 5:58 AM on July 22, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by StickyCarpet at 5:58 AM on July 22, 2022 [1 favorite]
Oh, I think Scam Economy podcast has an interview with a guy who was targeted by this type of scam. "She" was trying to humiliate him into cooperating by insulting his financial status quo.
posted by Selena777 at 7:51 AM on July 22, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by Selena777 at 7:51 AM on July 22, 2022 [1 favorite]
Everybody's scammable, guys. Everybody.
These stories always make me fearful of what else is going to happen when senior cognitive decline kicks in.
posted by praemunire at 8:46 AM on July 22, 2022 [12 favorites]
These stories always make me fearful of what else is going to happen when senior cognitive decline kicks in.
posted by praemunire at 8:46 AM on July 22, 2022 [12 favorites]
Everybody's scammable, guys. Everybody.
This is true, but it's also clear that some people are way more scammable than others.
posted by tavella at 9:43 AM on July 22, 2022 [2 favorites]
This is true, but it's also clear that some people are way more scammable than others.
posted by tavella at 9:43 AM on July 22, 2022 [2 favorites]
This is true, but it's also clear that some people are way more scammable than others.
This got me Googling to find out what the characteristics of an easily-scammable person are, and I got three different profiles from three different articles:
Industriousness, curiosity, geniality
Self-confidence, risk tolerance, belief that you're unscammable, man over 70
Neurotic, romantic idealist, sensation-seeking, middle-aged woman
This makes me wonder if different types of scams target different sets of personality traits. Maybe people who think they're experts in love get taken in by one kind of scam, and people who think they're experts in money get taken in by another, and people who think they're experts at keeping their family safe get taken in by yet another, and people who think they're experts at scams...
posted by clawsoon at 1:26 PM on July 22, 2022 [5 favorites]
This got me Googling to find out what the characteristics of an easily-scammable person are, and I got three different profiles from three different articles:
Industriousness, curiosity, geniality
Self-confidence, risk tolerance, belief that you're unscammable, man over 70
Neurotic, romantic idealist, sensation-seeking, middle-aged woman
This makes me wonder if different types of scams target different sets of personality traits. Maybe people who think they're experts in love get taken in by one kind of scam, and people who think they're experts in money get taken in by another, and people who think they're experts at keeping their family safe get taken in by yet another, and people who think they're experts at scams...
posted by clawsoon at 1:26 PM on July 22, 2022 [5 favorites]
Three Card Monte is five hundred years old, but it seems there are enough people who don't know it's always a scam for it to still be profitable enough to support a small posse (dealer, shill, a couple of heavies, maybe others).
Three Card Monte is a weird one because it is so Hollywood. I'd bet some of the people keeping the posse in underwear are getting scammed on purpose for the experience. I mean I've never seen a three card monte setup but if I was in NYC and saw the milk crates and cardboard box it might be fun to lose $20 just for the participation story.
posted by Mitheral at 6:04 AM on July 23, 2022
Three Card Monte is a weird one because it is so Hollywood. I'd bet some of the people keeping the posse in underwear are getting scammed on purpose for the experience. I mean I've never seen a three card monte setup but if I was in NYC and saw the milk crates and cardboard box it might be fun to lose $20 just for the participation story.
posted by Mitheral at 6:04 AM on July 23, 2022
Plus I feel like a well put together woman with nearly $3M in cash would have options in the real world, even if 72. Not that you can't get romance-conned face to face, but you might at least get some fun along the way.
For my MIL, the distance of the scammer is actually a benefit. She can be very obnoxious in person and has some traits that drive people away. But she's also a total extrovert so she craves contact and attention. (Which can also drive people away if they are the type who feel drained by that.) So, mystery guy far away who never gets close enough to reject her is actually a nice, safe way to "have a boyfriend." She's so mad that we won't let her send her current "boyfriend" money right now.
But yes, in the real world, this lady has options including casually dating and then setting up a fund to help disadvantaged youth get an education. Quit giving your money to wealthy people, you wealthy dingbats! A U.S. General is wealthy. He doesn't need your help. And if he does then he's not a good catch, fish on!
Oh, I kind of understand how people, once they are in the con and have lost money, are very resistant to believing they were conned.
This is huge. It's common in all kinds of shame cycles. When we've been had and especially in a way that makes us feel foolish or ashamed and even more when it is our trust that has been violated, most of us have a strong desire to right the story and put ourselves back on even footing or even get revenge. This impulse, in the hands of a skilled scammer, just about virtually guarantees that they will be able to get more from us. It keeps us engaged with them, it keeps us vulnerable (which is perfect for them) and it keeps us from getting help.
posted by amanda at 12:52 PM on July 24, 2022 [5 favorites]
For my MIL, the distance of the scammer is actually a benefit. She can be very obnoxious in person and has some traits that drive people away. But she's also a total extrovert so she craves contact and attention. (Which can also drive people away if they are the type who feel drained by that.) So, mystery guy far away who never gets close enough to reject her is actually a nice, safe way to "have a boyfriend." She's so mad that we won't let her send her current "boyfriend" money right now.
But yes, in the real world, this lady has options including casually dating and then setting up a fund to help disadvantaged youth get an education. Quit giving your money to wealthy people, you wealthy dingbats! A U.S. General is wealthy. He doesn't need your help. And if he does then he's not a good catch, fish on!
Oh, I kind of understand how people, once they are in the con and have lost money, are very resistant to believing they were conned.
This is huge. It's common in all kinds of shame cycles. When we've been had and especially in a way that makes us feel foolish or ashamed and even more when it is our trust that has been violated, most of us have a strong desire to right the story and put ourselves back on even footing or even get revenge. This impulse, in the hands of a skilled scammer, just about virtually guarantees that they will be able to get more from us. It keeps us engaged with them, it keeps us vulnerable (which is perfect for them) and it keeps us from getting help.
posted by amanda at 12:52 PM on July 24, 2022 [5 favorites]
More details on the woman scammed of $800K by the lonely hearts U. S. retired general.
She initially went on some website for older people looking to be remarried. She knew that a general's pension does not make him rich like her, but he was supposedly tall and handsome, and she fantasized being squired around to charity events with a distinguished gentleman in dress whites and a chest full of medals, and she has some properties that she envisioned a strong man taking control of.
The "retired US general" sucked her in step by step. First it was a "short term loan" to help him close out his affairs, something about complications in the sale his house, so he could move back to the US.
Then it got ever more complicated. The first bank transfer was "stolen" by corrupt bankers. Then he had to "bribe" some officials to get the money released by the bank. Then, he was falsely charged with a crime and imprisoned in a conspiracy to silence him, and he needed a lawyer to fight that.
It just went on and on. It even went so as far as needing money to hire mercenaries to break him out of jail.
posted by StickyCarpet at 3:46 PM on July 27, 2022 [4 favorites]
She initially went on some website for older people looking to be remarried. She knew that a general's pension does not make him rich like her, but he was supposedly tall and handsome, and she fantasized being squired around to charity events with a distinguished gentleman in dress whites and a chest full of medals, and she has some properties that she envisioned a strong man taking control of.
The "retired US general" sucked her in step by step. First it was a "short term loan" to help him close out his affairs, something about complications in the sale his house, so he could move back to the US.
Then it got ever more complicated. The first bank transfer was "stolen" by corrupt bankers. Then he had to "bribe" some officials to get the money released by the bank. Then, he was falsely charged with a crime and imprisoned in a conspiracy to silence him, and he needed a lawyer to fight that.
It just went on and on. It even went so as far as needing money to hire mercenaries to break him out of jail.
posted by StickyCarpet at 3:46 PM on July 27, 2022 [4 favorites]
Yep, the slow reel. It’s so easy to throw good money after bad. Once the wallet is open, it does not want to close!
This mirrors a number of internet boyfriends my MIL has had. Now I suspect she is on a list of soft marks because they keep finding her. I also suspect that she was used as a money laundering mule. That crap has landed scam victims in jail. Not one but two of her internet boyfriends have ended up in comas! What are the odds?!?
In her small town, the lady at the Western Union refused to process her transfers. Did you have any idea that they could do that? Amazing.
posted by amanda at 7:00 AM on July 28, 2022 [3 favorites]
This mirrors a number of internet boyfriends my MIL has had. Now I suspect she is on a list of soft marks because they keep finding her. I also suspect that she was used as a money laundering mule. That crap has landed scam victims in jail. Not one but two of her internet boyfriends have ended up in comas! What are the odds?!?
In her small town, the lady at the Western Union refused to process her transfers. Did you have any idea that they could do that? Amazing.
posted by amanda at 7:00 AM on July 28, 2022 [3 favorites]
That U.S. General story really plays on common prejudices and stereotypes about non-Western/“third world” countries.
posted by eviemath at 7:46 AM on July 28, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by eviemath at 7:46 AM on July 28, 2022 [1 favorite]
plays on common prejudices and stereotypes about non-Western/“third world” countries
Surely all of these "slow reel" cons trade in the whole range of imprinted tropes. A compendium of these scams could be a textbook for writers of streaming TV movies and multi-episode series on Netflix and the others. Oh! I've got an idea, it's a parallel story structure, those composing the scams, with all those layers of trafficked workers, and that whole structure. Juxtaposed with the storylines having all the characters and remote activities that the victim imagined. That would be kind of funny, if the victim's imagination was very detailed and realistically rendered, giving the victim at least some kind of credit for such a vivid imagination.
posted by StickyCarpet at 3:23 PM on July 28, 2022 [1 favorite]
Surely all of these "slow reel" cons trade in the whole range of imprinted tropes. A compendium of these scams could be a textbook for writers of streaming TV movies and multi-episode series on Netflix and the others. Oh! I've got an idea, it's a parallel story structure, those composing the scams, with all those layers of trafficked workers, and that whole structure. Juxtaposed with the storylines having all the characters and remote activities that the victim imagined. That would be kind of funny, if the victim's imagination was very detailed and realistically rendered, giving the victim at least some kind of credit for such a vivid imagination.
posted by StickyCarpet at 3:23 PM on July 28, 2022 [1 favorite]
Oh, expected or anticipated story structure in general also plays a role, no doubt. (Or, I guess I’m not sure I understand the parallel story structure idea you describe, or am interpreting that anywhere close to what you meant?) But I was specifically commenting about the racism/colonialism.
posted by eviemath at 5:59 PM on July 28, 2022
posted by eviemath at 5:59 PM on July 28, 2022
Just kind of daydreaming a movie/tv show, but was thinking it opens on the US General merrily and busily packing up his stately house in colorful Afghanistan, texting his fiancé about how he's happy to be coming home. But then the racist and colonialist cliches start coming in, and the viewer starts to think, "hey, this movie is getting kind of racist", then with each money transfer more about the scammers world leaks in, until you finally realize, that the whole first part was just a story planted in the victim's mind.
posted by StickyCarpet at 4:34 AM on July 29, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by StickyCarpet at 4:34 AM on July 29, 2022 [1 favorite]
lonely hearts U. S. retired general.
I've noticed that most of the women I know on Facebook who put up any public posts get a "retired U.S. general" making a comment or two. I'm half-tempted to respond with something provocative ("how many deaths were you responsible for, imperialist scum?"), but I don't.
posted by clawsoon at 5:35 AM on July 29, 2022 [1 favorite]
I've noticed that most of the women I know on Facebook who put up any public posts get a "retired U.S. general" making a comment or two. I'm half-tempted to respond with something provocative ("how many deaths were you responsible for, imperialist scum?"), but I don't.
posted by clawsoon at 5:35 AM on July 29, 2022 [1 favorite]
Huh. That sounds like the number of retired US generals might rival grandmother deaths before impending exams.
posted by eviemath at 5:51 AM on July 29, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by eviemath at 5:51 AM on July 29, 2022 [1 favorite]
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