Scientists : Ditch table manners and eat with your mouth open

July 25, 2022 9:42 AM

"Both crisps and apples are rated as more pleasurable when the sound of the crunch is amplified" The Times / archive.ph

"Parents instil manners in their children by “extolling the virtues of politely chewing with our mouths closed,” he said, but chewing open-mouthed will result in a fuller sensory experience."

Debretts, an "an unrivalled guide to protocol and modern manners" state that "you should eat with your mouth closed".

posted by I shot a fox in Skyrim and it made me sad (93 comments total)

What if someone's loud wet smacking open mouth chewing makes me want to lunge over the table and grab the food out of their mouth and throw it on the floor
posted by cubeb at 9:48 AM on July 25, 2022 [69 favorites]

What if someone's loud wet smacking open mouth chewing makes me want to lunge over the table and grab the food out of their mouth and throw it on the floor

Then they get the sensory experience of a knuckle sandwich
posted by Ultracrepidarian at 9:51 AM on July 25, 2022 [24 favorites]

This is just an open mouth chewer wanting an excuse to be an open mouth chewer, isn't it?
posted by cooker girl at 9:52 AM on July 25, 2022 [31 favorites]

Anyone taking bets on the percentage of comments here that'll be about misophonia by the time the thread closes? I'm going with 93%, but I'm an optimist.
posted by Lentrohamsanin at 9:52 AM on July 25, 2022 [15 favorites]

I initially took the thread title as an imperative for scientists specifically to eat with our mouths open more frequently and was all ready to take the article to my spouse, wave it dramatically at them, and yell SEE? SEE THE INTERNET says--!
posted by sciatrix at 9:58 AM on July 25, 2022 [9 favorites]

I'm not normally a guy who reacts to sounds, but, yeah, open-mouth eating is definitely one thing that will get me squicked-out.

I also have a friend who, while he doesn't eat open-mouth, he loudly clomps his teeth together as he chews. *CLOMP!*CLOMP!*CLOMP!*CLOMP!*CLOMP!* Weirdly, he does this no matter what he's eating. Chips? *CLOMP!* Burger? *CLOMP!* Ice cream? *CLOMP!* I mean, who chews plain vanilla ice cream?
posted by Thorzdad at 10:11 AM on July 25, 2022 [5 favorites]

do farts now
posted by elkevelvet at 10:14 AM on July 25, 2022 [18 favorites]

I've noticed that I subconsciously start to chew with mouth open and make smacking sounds when I'm enjoying a tasty piece of food that is making me happy. So maybe there's something to open mouthed chewing being a natural reflex, but adults are taught to inhibit for social reasons.

Also I was watching NHK, and they say one must slurp handmade, organic soba in order to aerate the subtle aromas of high quality buckwheat.
posted by polymodus at 10:32 AM on July 25, 2022 [5 favorites]

Also, gargle your wine.
posted by Iris Gambol at 10:32 AM on July 25, 2022 [11 favorites]

Bonus: my head will explode. So good news for those looking to end me.
posted by thivaia at 10:34 AM on July 25, 2022 [4 favorites]

This feels like it was generated by The Times (of London) equivalent of the New York Times Pitchbot.

As they say...chews wisely.
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 10:37 AM on July 25, 2022 [24 favorites]

According to wikipedia, "one of Spence's earliest and most notable experiments in the field of crossmodal food research was "The Role of Auditory Cues in Modulating the Perceived Crispness and Staleness of Potato Chips," published in the Journal of Sensory Studies in 2004."

Where to begin with this?
posted by BWA at 10:41 AM on July 25, 2022 [2 favorites]

As they say...chews wisely.

A+
posted by thivaia at 10:42 AM on July 25, 2022 [3 favorites]

My stepson’s habit of chawing his food with his mouth open drove me nuts, but after a year of aversion therapy (me sitting quietly at the table and dealing with it after it was clear nobody cared how I felt about it), the vein on my forehead hardly throbs at dinner at all anymore
posted by spinn at 10:48 AM on July 25, 2022 [7 favorites]

There’s a traditional middle path, viz., the open mouthed gourmand is expected to hang a big napkin over their head and eat under it. The Walrus and the Carpenter; ortolans; etc.
posted by clew at 10:51 AM on July 25, 2022 [6 favorites]

My niece is a lipsmacking chewer and it drives me craaaaaaazy. I don't have misphonia, but that sound is so moist and distressing.

I love her deeply and unconditionally except at meal times.
posted by jacquilynne at 11:16 AM on July 25, 2022 [3 favorites]

My spouse is going to lose their mind when I send them this. I am (apparently) the loudest apple eater they have ever met. Words have been exchanged, couches have been slept on. So of course I am opening a new phase of this war in 5..4..3..2..
posted by inflatablekiwi at 11:30 AM on July 25, 2022 [10 favorites]

Know what's really annoying? Chewing gum open mouthed and POPPING it.
posted by Splunge at 11:31 AM on July 25, 2022 [4 favorites]

Reminded me of this recent YouTube video on how Flamin' Hot Cheetos are carefully designed to get you hooked.
posted by TheophileEscargot at 12:10 PM on July 25, 2022 [2 favorites]

As the dearly departed Charles Napier once said, "You're gonna look pretty funny trying to eat a bag of chips with no fuckin' teeth."

*ok it was corn on the cob, but still.
posted by seanmpuckett at 12:12 PM on July 25, 2022 [8 favorites]

Your enhanced sensory experience will make me want to cry or scream though. Misophonia is tough even if people doubt it's real. 😱
posted by tiny frying pan at 12:14 PM on July 25, 2022 [2 favorites]

chawing his food with his mouth open

Youngest brother clicks his teeth on his fork every mouthful, swallows half a lung of air along with the food and then does a silent closed-mouth burp to get it back up, every single bite. No idea how it affects the taste of the food but it has certainly taken years off my life
posted by ominous_paws at 12:18 PM on July 25, 2022 [4 favorites]

Oh, cool, the Times is doing lifestyle pieces trying to normalize my 5-year-old's appalling personal habits now? When can we expect the rigorous analysis of how much water you save by never flushing, ever? Or how it's good for the local microbiome if you only wash your hair at the equinoxes?
posted by Mayor West at 12:36 PM on July 25, 2022 [4 favorites]

I'm an ardent mouth closed chewer and feel the same disgust as others here do when someone is making a smacking sound.

However, I caught myself the other day taking the initial bite of a piece of popcorn mouth open. Just the initial crunch, then mouth closed.

Went back to closing my mouth before biting down and it's just not quite as good!

Still, I only do this in private...
posted by benoliver999 at 12:42 PM on July 25, 2022

“But it’s more pleasurable to eat with one’s mouth open!”

Yeah well there are a lot of pleasurable things we as a society have decided to keep behind closed doors where no one is forced to observe them without consenting to.
posted by supercres at 1:02 PM on July 25, 2022 [23 favorites]

Maybe my ears aren't glued on right, but I can hear myself chewing *more* when my mouth is closed.
posted by The Underpants Monster at 1:09 PM on July 25, 2022 [2 favorites]

Ah, finally! Freedom! Updating my dating profile now.

One of my persistent neuroses is that despite being very conscious of other peoples' chewing practices, I myself may be an open-mouth chewer.
posted by rhizome at 1:37 PM on July 25, 2022 [1 favorite]

I can hear myself chewing *more* when my mouth is closed

Yes, but other people won't be fantasising about your violent death, so there's two sides.
posted by pipeski at 1:39 PM on July 25, 2022 [14 favorites]

GROSS

If you choose to do this, please refrain from doing so in the same room as me.
posted by fimbulvetr at 1:41 PM on July 25, 2022 [3 favorites]

THANK YOU. I have long said that my manners, while alarming to the others at the table, thoroughly enhance the pleasure of the meal experience for me and I will continue my enriching if iconoclastic behavior.

Wait, were we talking about jacking off under the table or chewing with your mouth open?
posted by AlSweigart at 1:41 PM on July 25, 2022 [6 favorites]

That said, deafness has helped.

I'd be curious to learn about differences between deaf and blind reactions to chomping. Which is worse, the sight or the sound? I'm leaning toward sound, but it has its own visible versatilities.
posted by rhizome at 1:50 PM on July 25, 2022

What's the ruling on mouth closed, but making yum yum noises and/or swinging your lil feeties?
posted by bartleby at 2:21 PM on July 25, 2022 [2 favorites]

What's the ruling on mouth closed, but making yum yum noises

Not super offensive.
posted by rhizome at 2:38 PM on July 25, 2022 [2 favorites]

I save all the fantastic crunch sounds, and the ooshie gooshie watery sounds, like a little river running around my teeth, all the swallow sounds, and the ear poppings, the gristle cracking, and the rubbery sound of the sinew breaking, oooh and the champagne bubbles popping, for my self, behind my closed, smiling, lips. There is more than one way to obliterate table conversation. People may find me hard of hearing, let them think what they will, I fart in their general direction.
posted by Oyéah at 2:48 PM on July 25, 2022 [1 favorite]

Very quietly raises hand. Walks out.
posted by sammyo at 3:11 PM on July 25, 2022 [1 favorite]

You know that sound that people make when they're eating something hard and crunchy with their mouth closed? The noise that sounds like human teeth being crushed with a pestle and mortar? I've been known to flee a Sunday lunch over that one. Cannot be in the same room with it.
posted by pipeski at 3:21 PM on July 25, 2022 [2 favorites]

Even a very faint sound is taboo abroad.
posted by forbiddencabinet at 6:28 PM on July 25, 2022 [1 favorite]

That said, deafness has helped.
posted by I shot a fox in Skyrim and it made me sad at 9:53 AM on July 25

The visual can still get me. Panning by a coach chomping on gum while looming over the players during a hockey game gives me sympathy rage.

One of my worst sensory experiences was sitting on a megabus in front of a couple that I'm fairly certain had been camping (extreme BO + layers of smoke) and was chowing down on salt and vinegar chips, one with mouth wide open. Toss in stop and go traffic leaving Chicago and I wanted die. I wanted everyone and everything to die. Especially chomper.
posted by ghost phoneme at 6:44 PM on July 25, 2022

Wait, were we talking about jacking off under the table or chewing with your mouth open?

I think we're into jacking off ONTO the table territory. At least that's how this whole thing strikes me. Don't get me wrong -- I am very sex positive and can think of a few scenarios where splurging onto the table might be fun and enjoyed by all. But a group meal with family members and/or coworkers is not one of them. I'm sorry if your experience of food is slightly diminished by keeping your mouth closed while you chew but please do that smacking stuff in private or at least very far away from me unless there is explicit consent
posted by treepour at 7:19 PM on July 25, 2022

God I feel so validated by this comment thread, thank you all
posted by supercres at 7:57 PM on July 25, 2022 [3 favorites]

I got a microphone and a 100,000 watt sound system that says I can make Dr. Charles Spence, professor of experimental psychology at Oxford University, change his mind about "more pleasurable when the sound of the crunch is amplified".
posted by soundguy99 at 8:35 PM on July 25, 2022 [3 favorites]

I am very sensitive to certain kinds of noise. There are a lot of sounds that other people make when performing perfectly normal actions that I don't like. That being said, if I do not like those sounds, I leave the situation or put on headphones. Yes, sometimes I can feel the aggravation, rage, etc. rising up inside me—but that's precisely why I need to put on headphones or leave, to avoid feeling that way. The noises that other people might make when performing an act that is necessary to live (breathing, eating) are very much not about me.
posted by cultanthropologist at 8:56 PM on July 25, 2022 [1 favorite]

God I feel so validated by this comment thread, thank you all

+1
posted by 3j0hn at 8:58 PM on July 25, 2022

I got a microphone and a 100,000 watt sound system that says I can make Dr. Charles Spence, professor of experimental psychology at Oxford University, change his mind about "more pleasurable when the sound of the crunch is amplified".

Especially with some long, deep reverb.
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 10:06 PM on July 25, 2022 [1 favorite]

Do crisps really sound louder to oneself with one's mouth open? They sound quite loud with mouth closed. I like the bit about touching one's food - I have an 18-year-old family member whom we have never been able to train out of stroking her food. I will let her know she may have been on to something.
posted by paduasoy at 10:55 PM on July 25, 2022 [1 favorite]

If I'm sitting on the floor eating a rotisserie chicken like the world's most angry gorilla, just leave me alone. It's not hard.
posted by adept256 at 11:39 PM on July 25, 2022 [3 favorites]

I was brought up with open mouthed chewing not being considered a particularly big deal. It was commonplace where I lived in general, and it's never bothered me (though I don't think I do it myself?) It is so weird to see this much vitriol and anger at a simple, harmless sign of enjoying food.
posted by Dysk at 12:52 AM on July 26, 2022 [3 favorites]

It is so weird to see this much vitriol and anger at a simple, harmless sign of enjoying food.

I have on several occasions stood up and left the room to avoid punching the chewer in the face. On a rational level I know it's not a big deal, but I have a deep visceral reaction to it - I doubt it is a cultural thing, I have never encountered anything else that gives me this kind of reaction.

If it doesn't bother you when other people do it, that's great for you but I still have a hard time being around it.
posted by each day we work at 4:02 AM on July 26, 2022 [3 favorites]

It is so weird to see this much vitriol and anger at a simple, harmless sign of enjoying food.

You think it's weird to have a mental disorder? (Misophonia). Well, sorry, it's not like I can help it.
posted by tiny frying pan at 4:17 AM on July 26, 2022 [3 favorites]

Hearing dogs crunch chips is unequivocally delightful, though.
posted by CheeseLouise at 4:49 AM on July 26, 2022 [3 favorites]

One thing that's helped significantly with my absolute incandescent rage about crunching/chewing sounds is my anti-anxiety med, citalopram. Medicated, I can sit next to someone eating popcorn without having 100% of my attention devoted to a tug-of-war seesaw between planning their murder in exquisite detail and not carrying it out in the instant. I get a lot of benefits from this drug, but my housemates might say not being hated for eating in my presence is pretty great for them.

I don't think misophonia is on-label for any drug, but the effect is real for me. I still dislike crunching/chewing sounds, but it is often possible to tune them out, or just think of them as something to be borne for a short time, which I can tolerate. Rather than having them eclipse all space and time as a focal point of my utter revulsion.
posted by seanmpuckett at 4:51 AM on July 26, 2022 [2 favorites]

I doubt it is a cultural thing, I have never encountered anything else that gives me this kind of reaction.

See, I have a hard time believing it isn't cultural. There are parts of the world where you'd have a very hard time surviving with that kind of reaction to something so commonplace.

...which is why I think the reaction is an odd one.
posted by Dysk at 4:59 AM on July 26, 2022 [3 favorites]

Again, my reaction is beyond my control.
posted by tiny frying pan at 5:04 AM on July 26, 2022 [1 favorite]

Okay, I'm not saying it isn't, but it is almost certainly culturally mediated, and yes, it will strike people who are from places where there are no or fewer prohibitions on eating with your mouth open as odd.
posted by Dysk at 5:08 AM on July 26, 2022 [1 favorite]

I don't know what you mean by culturally mediated. Yes, some cultures smack their lips and chew loudly as a sign of appreciation. What difference could that make in an uncontrollable mental disorder? Do you know of research in this area?
posted by tiny frying pan at 5:16 AM on July 26, 2022

It's not that one's personal initial psychological reaction (of rage, disgust, etc.) to the sounds of other people eating is purely cultural. What is definitely cultural, however, is how a person contextualizes their own feelings of discomfort after the fact, how they express their discomfort, and what actions they are socially permitted (or not) to take as a result of those feelings. The ways in which mental disorders are socially contextualized is different across cultures and it has nothing to do with whether said disorder is "real" or not, because cultures are also "real."

For example, in this thread, we have people expressing fantasies of violence, calling others "gross" and "appalling," and comparing chewing with one's mouth open to sexually assaulting other people(!). All of this is seemingly done in a tongue-in-cheek way, but still—fault for the situation is placed outside oneself, and onto other "gross" people whose behavior ought to be corrected. In contrast, we have other people in this thread who place fault within themselves and their own perception, and correct the situation by removing themselves.

Whether or not a person is encouraged to externalize or internalize specific forms of sensory discomfort is almost certainly different interculturally. (I always think of the spaghetti scene from Tampopo when talking about this, warning for slurping and cutlery sounds.) This gets even further complicated intraculturally as it intersects with social hierarchies. As a parent, one is permitted to compel a child to eat in a particular way based on their personal preferences. A child, however, is not permitted to compel an adult to eat in a particular way based on their personal preferences.
posted by cultanthropologist at 5:32 AM on July 26, 2022 [8 favorites]

What I was saying was that to me, as someone who grew up in part in places where it was not frowned upon, the level of vitriol on display in this thread from so many people is hard to understand, and absolutely a product of culture - you do not see that kind of reaction to eating with your mouth open in cultures where it is not despised to anything like the extent you apparently do in the US. That is what I was saying, nothing more or less.

But since you ask: As a person with all kinds of sensory sensitivity issues, I also find the vitriol on display here puzzling. I've rarely seen people with other sensory issues lean into the kind of aggression toward their triggers on display in this thread. And I do find that a little uncomfortable, not least because of the cultural coding of the particular trigger, and think it creates an environment here that may be more hostile to a lot of people than the participants realise.
posted by Dysk at 5:33 AM on July 26, 2022 [8 favorites]

you do not see that kind of reaction to eating with your mouth open in cultures where it is not despised to anything like the extent you apparently do in the US. That is what I was saying, nothing more or less.

I'd like to see something backing up that first statement, because it's a pretty big assertion. And no, you said it was "odd" which, as something I cannot help, and something common, I'd rather it not be characterized as such.
posted by tiny frying pan at 5:46 AM on July 26, 2022

Personal experience living in those parts is the world? I'm not fighting evidence with anecdote here, nothing in this thread has been subject to citation requirements, and it's bizarre to single this claim out for it. If the kind of attitude in display here were commonplace in a lot of places I've lived, you would certainly notice.
posted by Dysk at 5:50 AM on July 26, 2022 [2 favorites]

And I'd rather not have a harmless practice that is culturally condoned in done contexts described with lot of the terms being used in this thread. "Odd" is mild by comparison.
posted by Dysk at 5:52 AM on July 26, 2022 [2 favorites]

Thinking about it some more—I especially don't love the comparison of eating loudly to nonconsensually exposing one's genitals to an unwilling party, because by comparison it perpetuates the misconception that sexual assault is primarily about individual physical pleasure, and not primarily about the authoritarian pleasure of exerting one's power over another person.
posted by cultanthropologist at 6:22 AM on July 26, 2022 [3 favorites]

Personal experience living in those parts is the world? I'm not fighting evidence with anecdote here, nothing in this thread has been subject to citation requirements, and it's bizarre to single this claim out for it.

Now its bizarre to ask if there's any evidence for this. Comon now. It's pretty standard on this site to ask for cites about evidence based stuff.

I'd actually like to know - in cultures where eating loudly is normal and accepted, are the rates of misophonia less? It is a bit hard to Google but I'm curious. I do not accept personal experience on things like this, because it's obviously so varied.

Can you please refrain from calling reactions people can't help as odd? That's all I'm requesting.
posted by tiny frying pan at 6:46 AM on July 26, 2022

It may be a harmless practice, but the point is, some people find it harmful. Like many things in the world, one thing that is harmless to some causes issues for another.

I think there's room for people to express how they feel, even if it makes them feel violent, without it being an overt slam on a cultural accepted practice.
posted by tiny frying pan at 6:49 AM on July 26, 2022

I've idly wondered over the years whether my misophonic rage was caused by my father slapping me across the face whenever I chewed noisily. (He probably also had misophonia.) Something like, I was never allowed to slurp or crunch, why should anyone else be allowed to do that? But the anger is so immediate, and had no rational thought behind it.

But then, he slapped me when I picked my nose, too, and it doesn't bother me at all when someone else does it.

It's a fascinating area of study, for sure, and it would be really great if we could have some compassion for each other while we talk about it.
posted by seanmpuckett at 6:52 AM on July 26, 2022 [1 favorite]

Compassion? What harm does it do to say you feel violent when you hear loud chewing? I'm genuinely confused.
posted by tiny frying pan at 6:56 AM on July 26, 2022 [1 favorite]

Maybe you haven't read the same thread I have, but the way people chewing with their mouths open are described in this thread is perhaps worth a second look if you don't think it's othering and aggressive.
posted by Dysk at 6:58 AM on July 26, 2022 [3 favorites]

Ok, but calling someone's emotions for a known phenomenon odd is also othering?

I actually don't see much violent thought expressed at all in this thread. Early on, a couple.
posted by tiny frying pan at 7:01 AM on July 26, 2022

Misophonia is a condition in which individuals experience intense anger and disgust when they are confronted with sounds made by other human beings

I don't think I'm odd for having OCD. It's a common disorder. Despite people thinking that contamination anxiety as someone with OCD are odd or weird.

I also don't think I'm odd for having misophonia. It's common. VERY common, in the U.S. I'd expect rates to be high elsewhere too.

So yes, I do think it's a problem to be labeled odd for having a common mental disorder. I do not think people actually wish violence or enact violence on people eating. They are expressing how they feel which is a part of the disorder. It's the entire feature of the disorder.

While relatively rare, up to 20% of the population may have some degree of misophonia I'm assuming this is U.S. data, but that doesn't feel that rare to me. Which is why I'd love to know rates worldwide.
posted by tiny frying pan at 7:14 AM on July 26, 2022 [1 favorite]

I eat loudly and with gusto.. but alone, so as not to offend you finer people

I'm led to believe we will all have a long, long time to be exquisitely silent and that time will come soon enough. I'll never forget the time my dumbass self realized that the irritating way my mom chewed her food (and who chews like that) was due to the loss of teeth over time, she needed to use her incisors primarily. Yeah, see how you look.

So, there might be a perfectly good reason you feel strongly about eating noises. Or not? Life is short.
posted by elkevelvet at 7:18 AM on July 26, 2022

Unless you've ever felt your attention focused to a single point, waiting with horror for the next sound from someone else's mouth, unable to stop it from happening, frozen with anger, I'm not sure you can appreciate what misophonia can be and how much of a problem it is. We're describing a feeling, and the intensity of it, with words. I never hit anyone for chewing with their mouth open (but my father sure did!). I absolutely did leave rooms, turned up music, or said something, not always kindly though.

Just take a moment.
posted by seanmpuckett at 7:20 AM on July 26, 2022 [2 favorites]

Also: eating isn't the only thing. It can be snoring and other sounds too, albeit not the focus of this thread.

I'm sure it IS more enjoyable to eat loudly! That, I don't dispute. It increases air flow in the mouth which increases smell, probably?
posted by tiny frying pan at 7:24 AM on July 26, 2022

Also: eating isn't the only thing.

The keystroke sound on the iphone is a particular trigger for me as well. Could not possibly tell you why.
posted by thivaia at 7:53 AM on July 26, 2022 [1 favorite]

Thivaia, the sound/vibrate click of setting my phone's timer also makes me shudder, who the heck knows why indeed!
posted by tiny frying pan at 7:59 AM on July 26, 2022 [1 favorite]

Mod note: A couple comments deleted. Misophonia is a real disorder, please follow the Community Guidelines and avoid questioning it or making ableist comments about it.
posted by loup (staff) at 9:59 AM on July 26, 2022 [1 favorite]

the argument here for open mouthed eating is based on a marginal increase in pleasure for a personal (though common) preference in food. If the marginal decrease in pleasure for observers based on a personal (but common) preference in manners is larger, that could be more import based on the utilitarian framing we start with.

It’s not clear to me that the researchers started much of the manners shtick, lots of it feels like the journalist’s skilled clickbaiting. … The researchers could probably measure average co-eater response, maybe even work out the optimal eating-norms strategy for likely allocations of traits within a community.
posted by clew at 10:38 AM on July 26, 2022 [1 favorite]

I mean, setting aside the unwelcome auditory journey that open-mouthed chewers drag people along, there's also the risk of being spattered with debris.

Count me firmly amongst the camp who believe that, once a food item has entered a person's mouthspace, it then becomes very private matter.
posted by The Outsider at 11:18 AM on July 26, 2022 [1 favorite]

Sounds like some of you would fit in well on Orion.
posted by bangles at 12:06 PM on July 26, 2022

I'm guessing that some of the comments about unwelcome comparisons to nonconsensual exposure and sex acts and other lewdness was directed partially at me.

That's the thing, though, I don't even have to be talking about sex (though I realize that I did trigger the false "sex crime for pleasure instead of power" trope, and that mentioning consent might have narrowed the scope; my apologies for those).

The pleasurable thing could be smoking a joint or cigar on a crowded street with poor airflow, the relief of expelling intestinal gas in an elevator (from either end), strong perfume, playing music at full volume from one's phone, picking at open sores.. all things that might feel good for the person doing them, not illegal, but something that a significant percent of people would find unpleasant-- "I *really* don't need to smell/hear/see that right now".

I consider myself lucky to have the self-control (relative to my severity of misophonia) not to act on any rage fantasies, so I'm not sure why some folks are getting all up in their feelings about *my* discomfort. I try not to get into those situations, but if I do, I definitely find that some people are just as offended by mitigation measures in the moment (headphones, earplugs, leaving) as some of you are by.. just knowing that people with misophonia exist, I guess?
posted by supercres at 12:37 PM on July 26, 2022 [2 favorites]

Some people have stuffy noses and the only way they can breathe while eating, is to chew with their mouths open.

Horrible things happen at the table, in any culture, often starving slaves must stand by and serve their masters, while knowing their children hunger. Horrible things.

I was just thinking about my neighborhood, and the many different cultures here. I doubt there is a way, that everyone eats. I don't hear abuse, though. I don't hear children crying. I notice that when I eat, I don't notice anyone else eating, or how they eat. It makes people uncomfortable when I watch them, so I don't. I have become almost face blind. I engage in conversation, compliment the cook, etc, but I don't watch or listen. Now that I think about this I make hardly a sound, and see for the most part, only my plate. I hear though, the undertones, and I see gestures of assent, or mutuality. I am alienated right now, inside my family for reasons.

I imagine the dinner table is a place not many of us could escape, and those of us who faced the cruel realities of violence, control, and grossly incompetent parenting, are still on edge, at the table.

Hyper good hearing coupled with the anxiety caused by dinner table horror shows of the past, has to be difficult, trying. I raise a theoretical glass to everyone who made it to a safe shore, and to those in between.

We must be free to speak in this room, that is how we see who we are, in reference to everyone else, and we beckon to those who struggle. Here is a soft beach head. We can gather here, and compare, and toast to the stars.
posted by Oyéah at 1:58 PM on July 26, 2022 [3 favorites]

The answer to the conversation in this thread, is not a migration to another community.
posted by Oyéah at 2:02 PM on July 26, 2022 [1 favorite]

I cannot speak for other people, but for me, I am not "offended" that people with misophonia exist, because I am also very triggered by specific kinds of noises. I literally had a screaming rage-crying slapping-my-own-head meltdown two days ago (triggered by, of all things, hearing someone blasting the sounds of anime girls laughing so loudly that my headphones couldn't block it out). You can't help your baseline reaction to these triggers.

I am bothered when people put activities like other people's eating and breathing in the category of "things selfish people do for personal pleasure that they could easily stop doing if they just cared" instead of the category of "things that literally everyone has to do in order to stay alive on this miserable godforsaken earth," and then assign negative intentionality to others based on that. Eating isn't at all like smoking a cigar or blasting loud music on public transit. I would say that being triggered by the way that a person eats is a lot closer to being triggered by the way a person breathes, a person's voice or vocal tics, or by a person who is crying or congested. Like, sure, you can request that someone change the way they perform these behaviors to better match your personal preferences. It's not impossible to retrain one's breathing or voice, or to stop oneself from crying or sniffling. But you also have to accept that you are asking a lot more of people mentally and physically when you ask someone to change the way they perform a baseline physical functionality, compared to when you ask someone to stop a purely voluntary pleasurable activity.

The eating sounds that my ailing grandmother with Parkinson's made when I had to spoon-feed her porridge triggered my fight-or-flight response. But my personal disgust has nothing to do with her, because she needs to eat to stay alive. You might then say, "Oh, well that's different, because someone old and disabled can't help it." But you cannot know for sure just by looking at someone whether or not they can "help" eating in a way that annoys you. You don't know if a person has ENT issues. You don't know if a person has deep psychological issues with food. You don't know if a person comes from a culture different from your own. You don't know if a person has low blood sugar and needs to eat right now. So unless I'm in a situation where a person is actively attempting to stop me from using my coping mechanisms for dealing with noise, I believe it is unfair for me to project my own negative personal feelings on another person who is simply existing.
posted by cultanthropologist at 2:50 PM on July 26, 2022

True, and you've reminded me: I had stuffy noses throughout my childhood due to allergies and it was very difficult to eat and breathe, which probably led to me chewing with my mouth open more often, which led to me getting smacked a lot. (In fact, I had a stuffy nose essentially constantly until my early 40s, when I stopped eating wheat.)
posted by seanmpuckett at 3:27 PM on July 26, 2022 [2 favorites]

If I may gently suggest, cultanthropologist, you are positing two different things?

But you also have to accept that you are asking a lot more of people mentally and physically when you ask someone to change the way they perform a baseline physical functionality, compared to when you ask someone to stop a purely voluntary pleasurable activity.


I believe, and could be wrong, that most sufferers of misophonia, for many social reasons, must deal with this internally, and are NOT asking others to change their behavior.

But then here you say:

So unless I'm in a situation where a person is actively attempting to stop me from using my coping mechanisms for dealing with noise, I believe it is unfair for me to project my own negative personal feelings on another person who is simply existing.

This is policing how people feel, their emotions, which again, as a feature of this mental disorder, cannot be helped. We are not "projecting" our own negative personal feelings on someone else by feeling anger and emotional upset at hearing a noise we can't stand, noises we don't even know why they bother us.
posted by tiny frying pan at 3:30 PM on July 26, 2022

Unless I misunderstand you - I'm tripping up a little on the part where you said "actively attempting to stop me from using my coping mechanisms"
posted by tiny frying pan at 3:32 PM on July 26, 2022

I am sorry for the term "feelings" being unclear here. The more important word, for me, in what I was trying to get across was "projection" — taking one's personal feelings about the noises, and turning those feelings into assumptions about another person's motivations, physical capabilities, personality traits, etc. What I feel in the moment about bothersome noises cannot be helped and is what it is. I can help whether or not I decide to make negative judgments about other people when they make noises that they either 1) could not possibly know are bothering me, because they are not psychic or 2) cannot help but make.

What I meant by "actively attempting to stop me from using my coping mechanisms" is that if a person yells at me for putting on headphones, or forces me to stay in the room with the distasteful noise, then obviously I am well within my rights to draw conclusions about that person's personality (i.e., they are a jerk).
posted by cultanthropologist at 3:41 PM on July 26, 2022 [1 favorite]

you are asking a lot more of people mentally and physically when you ask someone to change the way they perform a baseline physical functionality

The article we’re purportedly reacting to recommends that we all change the way we perform a baseline physical activity.
posted by clew at 5:15 PM on July 26, 2022 [2 favorites]

And I think it's silly of them to recommend that "we all change" this baseline physical activity, because not everyone is looking to optimize their behavior for food tasting better. Some people place a high value on this; some people value other factors (like sound) more highly.

I am not personally pro-open-mouthed chewing. Even though mouth noises gross me out on a personal level, there is no inherent moral value associated with making or not making them. I do not have any issue with people expressing disgust for triggering sounds. I do have an issue when there is hostility directed toward people. Such as, for example, comparing people who make harmless noises that you personally dislike to people who commit sexual assault.
posted by cultanthropologist at 5:49 PM on July 26, 2022

Unfortunately, hostility towards people can be a feature of the disorder.

Studies have identified the following responses as symptomatic of misophonia:

irritation turning to anger
disgust turning to anger
becoming verbally aggressive to the person making the noise
getting physically aggressive with objects, because of the noise
physically lashing out at the person making the noise
taking evasive action around people making trigger sounds
posted by tiny frying pan at 6:14 PM on July 26, 2022 [3 favorites]

That's a pretty great article, thanks tiny frying pan.
posted by seanmpuckett at 6:41 PM on July 26, 2022 [1 favorite]

btw, seanmpuckett: I am so sorry that you were physically abused as a child for behaviors that you could not have possibly helped, because you were a child. I appreciate that you were willing to disclose this information to us; what happened to you, no matter how long ago it happened, was in no way your fault and was absolutely not okay.
posted by cultanthropologist at 6:53 PM on July 26, 2022 [3 favorites]

Folks might find Misophonia and Potential Underlying Mechanisms: A Perspective interesting.

I was curious if there had been research into the possibility of Misphonia being rooted in a conditioned response that might not be present in people raised in cultures where mouth sounds are not considered rude or taboo like they are in western culture. So I did some searching with good old google scholar.

First off, it looks like is not something that is well studied. There isn't a lot on it. I was able to find this, so it is certainly being self-reported among Chinese college students.

The closest thing I could find to a comparison between American and Chinese people is a small section in this paper discussing a diagnostic process they were testing for Misphonia. I've quoted the relevant section to save people digging for it.

Finally, misophonia may have, at least in part, an anthropological and/or sociological origin. For instance, western culture tends to eliminate or “deodorize” body odors31. Similarly, western culture tends to eliminate body sounds. It is, for instance, impolite and rude to make sounds when eating, and children are taught to chew with their mouth closed. The sound of chewing may be interpreted as an equivalent of body odor. Like odors, body sounds such as chewing may be used to build the concepts of “oneness” and “otherness”. Besides, like perfume to foul odor, music or other (natural) sounds may be used as a way to mask unwanted sounds32 in a social environment. However, the western standards are not necessarily shared by other cultures. Customs regarding eating can be different from one part of the world to another33,34. It is unclear whether this cultural aspect may modulate misophonia development, symptoms, and impairment. Misophonia was assessed in Chinese9 and American8 students using the same misophonia and impairment questionnaires. Average annoyance ratings of misophonic sound categories (e.g., eating, throat, nasal, repetitive sounds) and misophonia prevalence were similar between both studies. However, correlations between misophonia symptoms and functional impairment were lower in the Chinese students than in the American students. It would be of interest to investigate this question of the cultural aspect of misophonia by using our test in different countries.

posted by forbiddencabinet at 7:08 PM on July 26, 2022 [4 favorites]

I'm skeptical. I'm not upset because the sound is rude, it's an irrational upset, the same to me as an OCD intrusive thought. I think people who have this might conclude or rationalize that it's rude, however, to explain their own reaction. That reaction would be different across cultures too.
posted by tiny frying pan at 7:24 PM on July 26, 2022 [1 favorite]

Even if I couldn't hear it at all, the sight of open-mouthed chewing would be pretty unappetizing.
posted by The Underpants Monster at 12:08 PM on July 28, 2022