splice/never let me go: I can't wait to see you lace your shoes*

August 11, 2022 4:32 AM

1st synthetic mouse embryos — complete with beating hearts and brains — created with no sperm, eggs or womb - "For the first time, scientists have created mouse embryos in the lab without using any eggs or sperm and watched them grow outside the womb. To achieve this feat, the researchers used only stem cells and a spinning device filled with shiny glass vials."

also btw...
A startup intends to create artificial human embryos to harvest tissues for transplants - "The same researchers are now creating embryo-stage versions of people to harvest tissues for use in transplant treatments."

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*Soundtrack for the thread

posted by kliuless (37 comments total)

Of course, such research comes with heavy ethical considerations.

Good, because what could possibly go wrong if science develops the ability to make people in the absence of all of the usual necessary structures for making people?

Not that our existing structures are perfect - they very much aren't, and I have a lot of skepticism about the nuclear family structure in general, having endured plenty of abuse growing up that that structure was perfectly designed to conceal - but I don't trust corporations to do a better or less exploitative job either.
posted by terretu at 4:48 AM on August 11, 2022 [3 favorites]

Of course, such research comes with heavy ethical considerations. "The mouse is a starting point for thinking about how one wants to approach this in humans," Alex Meissner, a stem cell biologist at the Max Planck Institute for Molecular Genetics, told The Washington Post. "It's not necessary to be alarmed or raise any panic, but … as we learn, it's important to have in parallel the discussion: How far do we want to take it?"

Ya think?

Fascinating FPP, kliuless. Thanks!
posted by Bella Donna at 4:49 AM on August 11, 2022

I always wondered what opening the genie’s bottle looked like.
posted by Thorzdad at 4:58 AM on August 11, 2022 [4 favorites]

Screw ethics, I'm not getting younger. If there's a weird vat geoff sitting in a giant warehouse that can provide me organs, well sorry vat geoff life isn't fair.
posted by geoff. at 5:02 AM on August 11, 2022 [22 favorites]

Even the very best parts of this concept will be for the elite. Seems like the last thing we need is more people.
posted by InkaLomax at 5:03 AM on August 11, 2022 [3 favorites]

I must admit that I am reminded of Never Let Me Go.

The saddest book I've ever read.
posted by Zumbador at 5:08 AM on August 11, 2022 [7 favorites]

a spinning device filled with shiny glass vials

why didn't they just use a centrifuge
posted by mittens at 5:09 AM on August 11, 2022 [70 favorites]

My very cultured self went straight to The Island tbh
posted by cendawanita at 5:17 AM on August 11, 2022 [2 favorites]

My less-cultured self arrived at Parts: The Clonus Horror instead...
posted by Chef Flamboyardee at 5:31 AM on August 11, 2022 [10 favorites]

Do you want Pinky and the Brain and Larry?

Because this is how you get Larry.
posted by RonButNotStupid at 5:41 AM on August 11, 2022 [3 favorites]

I'll be honest: the more sleeping people I step over on the sidewalk, the more I see people displaced from their homes by gentrification, the more I see people still dying of covid, with monkeypox gaining ground amidst a tide of prejudice and ignorance, the more I'm like -- who the fuck thinks that perfecting cloning is a valuable use of time and resources? Do we really need more people? We can't even be bothered to take care of the people that we have right now. What if we started there?
posted by kittens for breakfast at 5:51 AM on August 11, 2022 [15 favorites]

These old guts could use some spare parts.
posted by Optamystic at 5:54 AM on August 11, 2022 [1 favorite]

Screw ethics, I'm not getting younger. If there's a weird vat geoff sitting in a giant warehouse that can provide me organs, well sorry vat geoff life isn't fair.

You know, I am morally against eating meat, but I eat meat all the time.
posted by Literaryhero at 6:39 AM on August 11, 2022 [1 favorite]

I think this goes far enough that we can grow replacement parts for ourselves as an alternative to expensive long-term treatment for a chronic organ problem. I can’t see that NOT happening, at this point, because grow-and-replace could be cheaper. But probably no vat-grown full, complete humans.

At least, not until they figure out how to transfer an old billionaire’s mind into a new brain. Once that happens, then yeah. Immortal Bezos.
posted by darkstar at 6:53 AM on August 11, 2022 [3 favorites]

Adam’s Rib — Genesis 2:21-25.

Current World Population.
posted by cenoxo at 7:03 AM on August 11, 2022 [1 favorite]

Were these alpha double plus mice? Or lowly epsilon minuses? How large was the Bokanovsky group? Will they give these mouse soma? When can we start chanting ORGY PORGY for Ford’s sake?!
posted by vorpal bunny at 7:09 AM on August 11, 2022 [6 favorites]

I think this goes far enough that we can grow replacement parts for ourselves

Pretty sure I've read this exact plotline in a sci Fi short story...
posted by subdee at 7:21 AM on August 11, 2022 [1 favorite]

I always wondered what opening the genie’s bottle looked like.

Pretty much the same as opening Pandora’s Box.
posted by cenoxo at 7:36 AM on August 11, 2022 [1 favorite]

Instead of stuffing the genie back into the bottle, has anyone ever tried putting them into Pandora's Box?
posted by RonButNotStupid at 7:50 AM on August 11, 2022 [1 favorite]

I think they morph into a big can of worms when you do that.
posted by Thorzdad at 7:54 AM on August 11, 2022 [4 favorites]

The BBC interviewed one of the lead researchers involved in this about why they did it and the ethical implications.
posted by idb at 7:58 AM on August 11, 2022

They are already growing replacement parts, experimentally, in genetically modified pigs. Results are still not entirely successful but it does seem like xenotransplantation may be viable fairly soon...
posted by BungaDunga at 9:26 AM on August 11, 2022

Just to be totally clear, these mice are clones of the original mouse then?
posted by St. Peepsburg at 9:42 AM on August 11, 2022

This is a helpful step on the road to breeding the In-vitro army we need to fight in the AI war and the Chig invasion.
posted by Just this guy, y'know at 10:32 AM on August 11, 2022 [2 favorites]

I think this goes far enough that we can grow replacement parts for ourselves

Pretty sure I've read this exact plotline in a sci Fi short story...


Spares is one novel that pretty much fits the bill. I recommend it.
posted by a non mouse, a cow herd at 11:24 AM on August 11, 2022 [1 favorite]

On the other hand, if this technology gives us viable uterine replicators, it removes the whole shadiness of the pregnancy surrogacy industry and might enable more reproductive freedom. Though I also can see the usual suspects legislating for replacing abortion and removal of ectopic pregnancies with (expensive and experimental) use of such technology...
posted by I claim sanctuary at 12:21 PM on August 11, 2022 [3 favorites]

But do they have souls?
posted by gottabefunky at 12:48 PM on August 11, 2022 [2 favorites]

Does anyone?
posted by Occula at 1:07 PM on August 11, 2022 [6 favorites]

If a string of billionaires jump on board and sign over their estates to clones, attempt the mind-upload, and it fails completely, well then we have slightly fewer billionaires, so I don’t see the harm.
If Cloney Jeeff Bezos or Eloon Musk do sane and humane things with their newly acquired money (because “I swear it totally worked!”), even better.
posted by Mister Moofoo at 1:12 PM on August 11, 2022

For humanity’s sake, don’t tell the Donald about this. He’ll clone a never-ending supply of himself.
posted by cenoxo at 1:27 PM on August 11, 2022 [1 favorite]

Metafilter: I don't trust corporations to do a better or less exploitative job either.
posted by armoir from antproof case at 3:15 PM on August 11, 2022 [1 favorite]

putting the me back in meat
posted by glonous keming at 6:02 PM on August 11, 2022 [3 favorites]

Let's get this right onto the Supreme court docket! ASAP! Let these gung-ho sci-bros experience the Oh-No-You-Don't! moment for themselves.
posted by Oyéah at 8:32 PM on August 11, 2022

Your scientists were so preoccupied with whether or not they could, that they didn't stop to think if they should!
posted by Omon Ra at 10:37 PM on August 11, 2022

about 50 out of 10,000 cellular clumps continued to develop into embryo-like structures [...] The shape of internal structures and gene structure in the synthetic embryos differed slightly from those found in natural mouse embryos, the team noted.

Unholy eugenic euphemism, Batman! Talk about coaxing & finagling living things to do your bidding — in polite company that's called acting, dammit.
posted by dmh at 4:56 AM on August 12, 2022 [3 favorites]

Conventional cloning suffers from epigenetic problems and this greatly exacerbates them.

Popular understanding of genetics, cellular biology, and developmental biology have fallen far behind the science and is extremely reductive. Genetic coding itself is necessary but not sufficient, there's so much more involved. So it's a misunderstanding to see this as having anything to do with whole human clones grown in vats.

There's really two major implications of this.

The first is learning more about the epigenetics of cell differentiation. Isolating stems cells and inducing differentation reduces the confounding factors greatly, which is necessary for study.

The second involves and is an elaboration of the first, the possibility of growing whole organs in vitro. That's both an application of and an opportunity for more science.

The take in this thread is unjustifiably alarmist. I don't really see how this has much scientific (and thus social) relevance to the problems of whole-human cloning, in particular. Using stem cells has only downsides for that purpose, as far as I know. Note how extremely few of the clumps developed, and then none of those were viable full-term. All of the epigenetic issues that arise in cloning are magnified with this approach. Also, any given stem cell from an adult specimen is going to have numerous mutations in its DNA. Most of the time, they're in so-called "junk DNA". When they do matter, in practice in the body, they very rarely involve the functions of what the cell will differentiate to. But for growing a whole organism? That's a problem. This, along with the problems that arise from epigenetic issues, mean growing a whole organism (such as a mammal) full-term to viability in this manner is extremely unlikely.

However, the concerns about wealth inequality vis a vis organ transplants are quite valid. But this is true with every expensive advanced medical technology.
posted by Ivan Fyodorovich at 2:30 PM on August 12, 2022 [3 favorites]

As for MEat, I could eat myself but if it wasn't raised on the same food that I consumed and exercised (or not) as I've exercised, is it really yourself food-wise?

You could probably get the isotopic ratios close with synthetic nuclides but that gets even more expensive.

Unless it's veal Porpoise, organ replacements are going to have a lead time of at least 15+ (?) years - depending on the organ. I suppose child-liver would be a fine transplant, but size disparity might be an issue with something like the kidneys or corneas or hips.
posted by porpoise at 6:44 PM on August 14, 2022