Single, lonely men facing "broad" trends?
August 21, 2022 9:16 PM Subscribe
Psychologist Greg Matos, PsyD believes that, "Men need to address skills deficits to meet healthier relationship expectations." In what is not a post on the Onion, but instead Psychology Today, Dr. Matos suggested that, "Dating opportunities for heterosexual men are diminishing as relationship standards rise. Men need to address skills deficits to meet healthier relationship expectations."
More here on Dr. Matos' analysis of women unwilling to date duds and Men's Rights Forums on Reddit trying to parse what the article means.
I'll believe this if I ever actually see this happen IRL. I don't ever expect to see this IRL.* But seriously, it seems like there are no good men out there that want you/are single for like a minute. If this means that jerks are horny, lonely and sad.. yeah, I doubt I'll see this IRL. Also, join the club.
* except for Brad Pitt of late, I suppose.
posted by jenfullmoon at 9:34 PM on August 21, 2022 [1 favorite]
* except for Brad Pitt of late, I suppose.
posted by jenfullmoon at 9:34 PM on August 21, 2022 [1 favorite]
Oh boy, that Reddit thread is something. I’m not very far into it, but so many comments are so on the nose that I half wonder if we’re being trolled.
posted by [insert clever name here] at 9:35 PM on August 21, 2022 [12 favorites]
posted by [insert clever name here] at 9:35 PM on August 21, 2022 [12 favorites]
I think of meals as a source of social ritual and how that contrasts with the recent evolution of stuff like grubhub. I'm not picturing something as conclusive as 9PWIL's version of Children of Men, but I look at how swiftly social media disintermediated other incumbent social technologies and I think about how hard and time consuming dating and romantic relationships are and it wouldn't surprise me if they basically start to become something of a luxury good.
OTOH, I'm actually optimistic that a lot of the hand wringing by entrenched interests is a symptom of real shifting social power for people that have deserved more for a long time.
posted by Reasonably Everything Happens at 10:01 PM on August 21, 2022 [5 favorites]
I wouldn’t be surprised if single men feel lonelier than single women, because so few of them are socialized to form emotionally intense and supportive relationships with a network of platonic friends the way a lot of women are. That’s how you end up with those widowers who suddenly realize that their wives had been arranging their entire social life when they were alive.
posted by The Underpants Monster at 10:20 PM on August 21, 2022 [65 favorites]
posted by The Underpants Monster at 10:20 PM on August 21, 2022 [65 favorites]
That Reddit thread is… “something else” doesn’t cut it, I want some anthropologist to dissect it and make a big infographic I can send around to people with the link.
The fact that the original article is so concise and readable and has caused such a notable response has to mean something, right? I know a lot of straight people and it feels like none of them would blink at the assertions in the article, but I was made aware of it weeks ago on my very queer tumblr dashboard. It feels like there’s a whole alternate world out there of het dudes using dating apps with increasingly silly names and women who decide not to pursue them after an online exchange gives them first-date-or-murder vibes. I know this world exists alongside my own, I just haven’t ever witnessed it personally.
posted by Mizu at 10:28 PM on August 21, 2022 [9 favorites]
The fact that the original article is so concise and readable and has caused such a notable response has to mean something, right? I know a lot of straight people and it feels like none of them would blink at the assertions in the article, but I was made aware of it weeks ago on my very queer tumblr dashboard. It feels like there’s a whole alternate world out there of het dudes using dating apps with increasingly silly names and women who decide not to pursue them after an online exchange gives them first-date-or-murder vibes. I know this world exists alongside my own, I just haven’t ever witnessed it personally.
posted by Mizu at 10:28 PM on August 21, 2022 [9 favorites]
This is like the pinnacle of just world fallacy. Men are involuntarily single because they are unattractive. This doesn’t mean ugly low status dudes can’t find love, it just means every dude who can’t find love is ugly and low status.
posted by MattD at 10:48 PM on August 21, 2022 [7 favorites]
posted by MattD at 10:48 PM on August 21, 2022 [7 favorites]
omg I just read a few of the comments in the reddit thread and involuntarily made a noise like"aaaeeruuugh" and hit the back button
posted by 5_13_23_42_69_666 at 10:51 PM on August 21, 2022 [19 favorites]
posted by 5_13_23_42_69_666 at 10:51 PM on August 21, 2022 [19 favorites]
Well, I'm glad I don't spend time in Men's Rights reddit...
Why are they all so obsessed with being 6ft tall and rich? It's like a conversation out of middle school.
posted by pan at 10:56 PM on August 21, 2022 [33 favorites]
Why are they all so obsessed with being 6ft tall and rich? It's like a conversation out of middle school.
posted by pan at 10:56 PM on August 21, 2022 [33 favorites]
Most of the people on those kinds of forums simply do not think of women as real, individual human beings with needs and goals as varied as their own.
posted by The Underpants Monster at 11:21 PM on August 21, 2022 [49 favorites]
posted by The Underpants Monster at 11:21 PM on August 21, 2022 [49 favorites]
MollyRealized: "This is controversial?"
No.
We're talking about /r/MensRights. The fact that they are upset at something doesn't make it controversial, any more than flat earthers getting upset at someone saying that the sun as the center of our solar system makes it controversial, or breatharians getting upset at the statement that food is necessary for survival makes it controversial.
posted by Bugbread at 11:49 PM on August 21, 2022 [25 favorites]
No.
We're talking about /r/MensRights. The fact that they are upset at something doesn't make it controversial, any more than flat earthers getting upset at someone saying that the sun as the center of our solar system makes it controversial, or breatharians getting upset at the statement that food is necessary for survival makes it controversial.
posted by Bugbread at 11:49 PM on August 21, 2022 [25 favorites]
involuntarily made a noise like"aaaeeruuugh" and hit the back button
Me too, but not before I saw the "No D December" retaliation plan lol
I hope looking at that the one time hasn't poisoned every recommendation algorithm in the world to start showing me stuff like that forever now.
posted by ctmf at 12:10 AM on August 22, 2022 [16 favorites]
Me too, but not before I saw the "No D December" retaliation plan lol
I hope looking at that the one time hasn't poisoned every recommendation algorithm in the world to start showing me stuff like that forever now.
posted by ctmf at 12:10 AM on August 22, 2022 [16 favorites]
As a single woman who dates men and has been on all the apps, I totally agree with what this article is saying. I don't see it as "boys will be boys" but rather "a lot of single men had better step it up if they want at chance at finding love."
It's actually quite tragic. I swipe left on perhaps 95-99% of the men I see on the apps for various reasons and these days rarely meet up with ones I do match because it fizzles. (OK I feel like a jerk for saying this but I try to be kind and direct.) While my guy friends and siblings and even students have quite good social skills and aren't single (or won't be single when they start dating), there is a huge group of 40something straight cis men -- and younger too -- who are surely lovely people but just not good relationship material because they lack the necessary skills. I feel for them but I'm done taking care of others! I was raised by a great dad in a feminist family but it's recently that I realized how high my standards can and should be. And we're not talking crazy shit here, we're talking basic stuff. A huge recent realization is that while I may have a biological clock when it comes to children, men have a social clock. It's sad when men are oblivious to their own shortcomings yet so entitled to some imaginary dream girl. (Who's beautiful and chill and much younger, of course.)
As a feminist, I feel a bit like "finally revenge!" about all of this -- I may be single because there aren't good options but at least I know how to have a damn relationship?! All those years of giving while others took but no more, haha. However, that type of thinking really gets no one anywhere. Everyone deserves to feel love because that makes the world a better place but this is men's problem and men's problem to fix. Again, those men who are in happy or even so-so relationships may struggle to understand how this works because they/you have these skills that are so obvious to you but unapparent to them. And there are plenty of awesome men who have great relationship skills and can't find relationships either. Basically, it's all super unfair but yes there are patterns we can observe and hopefully learn from.
posted by smorgasbord at 12:12 AM on August 22, 2022 [58 favorites]
It's actually quite tragic. I swipe left on perhaps 95-99% of the men I see on the apps for various reasons and these days rarely meet up with ones I do match because it fizzles. (OK I feel like a jerk for saying this but I try to be kind and direct.) While my guy friends and siblings and even students have quite good social skills and aren't single (or won't be single when they start dating), there is a huge group of 40something straight cis men -- and younger too -- who are surely lovely people but just not good relationship material because they lack the necessary skills. I feel for them but I'm done taking care of others! I was raised by a great dad in a feminist family but it's recently that I realized how high my standards can and should be. And we're not talking crazy shit here, we're talking basic stuff. A huge recent realization is that while I may have a biological clock when it comes to children, men have a social clock. It's sad when men are oblivious to their own shortcomings yet so entitled to some imaginary dream girl. (Who's beautiful and chill and much younger, of course.)
As a feminist, I feel a bit like "finally revenge!" about all of this -- I may be single because there aren't good options but at least I know how to have a damn relationship?! All those years of giving while others took but no more, haha. However, that type of thinking really gets no one anywhere. Everyone deserves to feel love because that makes the world a better place but this is men's problem and men's problem to fix. Again, those men who are in happy or even so-so relationships may struggle to understand how this works because they/you have these skills that are so obvious to you but unapparent to them. And there are plenty of awesome men who have great relationship skills and can't find relationships either. Basically, it's all super unfair but yes there are patterns we can observe and hopefully learn from.
posted by smorgasbord at 12:12 AM on August 22, 2022 [58 favorites]
That means getting into some individual therapy to address your skills gapThis is a grim attitude to take toward psychological therapy; that's to say that it's for building exterior skills to achieve success—as if it were a forklift operator's course or a blues guitar class—rather than developing self-knowledge and habits of mind which are really only valuable in their own right.
I'm certain the skills gap of maintaining relationships exists, what my single friends tell me is hair-raising. What I mean is that I'm not sure that 'skills' is really the point of psychotherapy; and I can't imagine any counsellor, given the sentence 'my problem is that women don't like me', failing to respond with, 'well do you like you?'
W/r/t reading a men's rights thread on reddit, not even with your eyes, mate.
posted by Fiasco da Gama at 12:19 AM on August 22, 2022 [23 favorites]
Please keep in mind the particular subreddit linked here is, where's that meme about putting on a hazmat suit before entering the comment section. I feel clickbaited to even be offered the link to look at them.
I do enjoy the short Psychology Today piece as an example of this presumably cis het man trying to reach other men with a career coach vocabulary like 'skills deficit' and 'competitive.' He's trying! He has a difficult audience before him. Goodness knows the other men need help.
Patriarchy includes anti-intellectualism, and it includes uhh the same thing but for self awareness, emotional techniques, the kinds of things that therapy offers. Anti-emotionalism? So boys are socially and systematically deprived of emotional skills and practice by, and I hate how this phrase is used but it's a good fit here, the soft bigotry of low expectations. We don't expect as much of them in youth, so we let them down by assuming they won't need to practice handling vulnerable emotions.
Overall I find this paper a fine attempt to phrase this sort of thing as 'skills' which is like the low-pressure or low-expectations way of saying you can 'learn' emotions. Again, with anti-intellectualism 'learning' skills/emotions is bad for boys because it's less masculine or whatever, so with adult men we have to hunt for job and occupational words like 'skills.'
posted by panhopticon at 12:25 AM on August 22, 2022 [28 favorites]
I do enjoy the short Psychology Today piece as an example of this presumably cis het man trying to reach other men with a career coach vocabulary like 'skills deficit' and 'competitive.' He's trying! He has a difficult audience before him. Goodness knows the other men need help.
Patriarchy includes anti-intellectualism, and it includes uhh the same thing but for self awareness, emotional techniques, the kinds of things that therapy offers. Anti-emotionalism? So boys are socially and systematically deprived of emotional skills and practice by, and I hate how this phrase is used but it's a good fit here, the soft bigotry of low expectations. We don't expect as much of them in youth, so we let them down by assuming they won't need to practice handling vulnerable emotions.
Overall I find this paper a fine attempt to phrase this sort of thing as 'skills' which is like the low-pressure or low-expectations way of saying you can 'learn' emotions. Again, with anti-intellectualism 'learning' skills/emotions is bad for boys because it's less masculine or whatever, so with adult men we have to hunt for job and occupational words like 'skills.'
posted by panhopticon at 12:25 AM on August 22, 2022 [28 favorites]
> Why are they all so obsessed with being 6ft tall and rich? It's like a conversation out of middle school.
Because they're scared of confronting their own actual problems, which are tied up with bad experiences and emotions, and the prospect of future failures. It's easier to just throw up your hands and blame the birth lottery.
posted by smelendez at 12:39 AM on August 22, 2022 [27 favorites]
Because they're scared of confronting their own actual problems, which are tied up with bad experiences and emotions, and the prospect of future failures. It's easier to just throw up your hands and blame the birth lottery.
posted by smelendez at 12:39 AM on August 22, 2022 [27 favorites]
There was a post about a video discussing this on the actually mostly good, pro-feminism mens issues subreddit, Menslib.
t's worth noting that, as the video points out, none of the studies the article referenced concluded that a lack of skills as one of the primary reasons that men are lonely. That explanation apparently came from a single woman who was interviewed. Instead, the primary problem was the declining real wages of young men. The article probably should have made that clear, but that would mean talking about systemic issues instead of harvesting rage clicks.
posted by Green Winnebago at 12:40 AM on August 22, 2022 [13 favorites]
t's worth noting that, as the video points out, none of the studies the article referenced concluded that a lack of skills as one of the primary reasons that men are lonely. That explanation apparently came from a single woman who was interviewed. Instead, the primary problem was the declining real wages of young men. The article probably should have made that clear, but that would mean talking about systemic issues instead of harvesting rage clicks.
posted by Green Winnebago at 12:40 AM on August 22, 2022 [13 favorites]
Instead, the primary problem was the declining real wages of young men. The article probably should have made that clear, but that would mean talking about systemic issues instead of harvesting rage clicks.
Yes I have heard this forever and I'm sure it's right in a lot of ways. But you know what? It's only partially true. Women are suffering in this economy, too, and we still earn 82 cents to the dollar men do. And it's even more wildly unequal for the earnings of women of color versus white men. We're carrying the extra burden of housework and childcare and more even in 2022, all while earning less and losing our jobs because we don't have pandemic childcare, etc. etc. The problem with blaming the institutional problem is that, unless we include women in this too, we are essentially blaming women for becoming more successful despite our continued disenfranchisement. Like not having Roe v. Wade anymore?
For real though, I'm doing pretty well. I am so fucking glad that I earn a good, not great but stable, salary so I can support myself and date for love, not money. And that I can choose men for their great personality and a fun time together versus seeing them as income potential because they deserve that goodness too.
posted by smorgasbord at 12:49 AM on August 22, 2022 [99 favorites]
Yes I have heard this forever and I'm sure it's right in a lot of ways. But you know what? It's only partially true. Women are suffering in this economy, too, and we still earn 82 cents to the dollar men do. And it's even more wildly unequal for the earnings of women of color versus white men. We're carrying the extra burden of housework and childcare and more even in 2022, all while earning less and losing our jobs because we don't have pandemic childcare, etc. etc. The problem with blaming the institutional problem is that, unless we include women in this too, we are essentially blaming women for becoming more successful despite our continued disenfranchisement. Like not having Roe v. Wade anymore?
For real though, I'm doing pretty well. I am so fucking glad that I earn a good, not great but stable, salary so I can support myself and date for love, not money. And that I can choose men for their great personality and a fun time together versus seeing them as income potential because they deserve that goodness too.
posted by smorgasbord at 12:49 AM on August 22, 2022 [99 favorites]
If the mens rights side of the internet is scary (it is) the incel cesspool is way worse
posted by Jacen at 2:00 AM on August 22, 2022 [5 favorites]
posted by Jacen at 2:00 AM on August 22, 2022 [5 favorites]
I fall squarely into the discussed cohort and tbh - right now all I can think to add is my appreciation for the pun in the post title.
posted by dominik at 2:04 AM on August 22, 2022 [7 favorites]
posted by dominik at 2:04 AM on August 22, 2022 [7 favorites]
I value the comments here, and I think there's (obviously) a lot to discuss about this topic, but I'm rather uncomfortable with the post itself. The main article is okay-ish, but it strongly over interprets the study on which it is based. In the study they emphasize that the effects they find are small, that other studies have come to opposite conclusions (e.g. women are lonelier), and as far as I can tell, there's no mention of an increase in loneliness over recent history.
Also, linking a famously toxic subreddit so we can jeer at it... I mean, I clicked on it (in a private browser) and yah the comments are shocking and sad, but maybe we just shouldn't? Thanks, Green Winnebago, for linking that other subreddit. I'm happy to see that there are non-toxic spaces for men to sort out their problems.
Many men are poorly socialized, and squander the many advantages that society gives them. This is a complicated issue though, and we should be careful about internalizing superficial explanations for why this is the case. In searching around for something more concrete, there's a lot of echo chambering, with pop sci articles linking to pop sci articles, all built ultimately on a single, limited study. I know it's a lot to ask, but I think there's a better version of this post that does a deeper dive on the sociology of (male) loneliness.
posted by Alex404 at 2:05 AM on August 22, 2022 [44 favorites]
Also, linking a famously toxic subreddit so we can jeer at it... I mean, I clicked on it (in a private browser) and yah the comments are shocking and sad, but maybe we just shouldn't? Thanks, Green Winnebago, for linking that other subreddit. I'm happy to see that there are non-toxic spaces for men to sort out their problems.
Many men are poorly socialized, and squander the many advantages that society gives them. This is a complicated issue though, and we should be careful about internalizing superficial explanations for why this is the case. In searching around for something more concrete, there's a lot of echo chambering, with pop sci articles linking to pop sci articles, all built ultimately on a single, limited study. I know it's a lot to ask, but I think there's a better version of this post that does a deeper dive on the sociology of (male) loneliness.
posted by Alex404 at 2:05 AM on August 22, 2022 [44 favorites]
As a single, lonely man who agrees that my lack of social skills is probably the main problem (and who may be on the spectrum) – and who agrees even more emphatically that MRAs are fucking gross – yeah, it's a little discouraging to see the link to an MRA subreddit included in this post, as if to say "look how awful these single, lonely men are, and how poorly they're taking the suggestion that their own deficiencies might be to blame".
Plus, yeah, don't give them link juice.
posted by escape from the potato planet at 3:50 AM on August 22, 2022 [41 favorites]
Plus, yeah, don't give them link juice.
posted by escape from the potato planet at 3:50 AM on August 22, 2022 [41 favorites]
Also, yes – thanks, Green Winnebago. That sub looks refreshing. Subscribed.
posted by escape from the potato planet at 3:57 AM on August 22, 2022 [5 favorites]
posted by escape from the potato planet at 3:57 AM on August 22, 2022 [5 favorites]
Just the other day I was thinking about how I probably wouldn't want to be with another adult who has my emotional and social and personal deficits in a romantic relationship. Skills development sounds like a nice response to that, but as @thecaitdiaries put it, "all of my plans for the future involve me waking up tomorrow with a sudden sense of discipline and adherence to routine that i have simply never displayed in my 23 years of life", except replace 23 years with twice that amount.
Anyway, yes, higher wages for young men would "help", but only if we want to go back to the old way of doing things where women are willing to put up with horrible men because women are economically desperate, men have all the economic power, and there's endless social pressure on women to embrace servitude. I know that vision appeals to a lot of men, but I'm not inured enough to the misery of people living with me to want that for myself.
(Half-baked theory: Maybe one of the reasons that patriarchy encourages emotional deadness in men is so that they can live for decades with miserable wives without their empathy making the situation intolerable.)
posted by clawsoon at 4:38 AM on August 22, 2022 [44 favorites]
Anyway, yes, higher wages for young men would "help", but only if we want to go back to the old way of doing things where women are willing to put up with horrible men because women are economically desperate, men have all the economic power, and there's endless social pressure on women to embrace servitude. I know that vision appeals to a lot of men, but I'm not inured enough to the misery of people living with me to want that for myself.
(Half-baked theory: Maybe one of the reasons that patriarchy encourages emotional deadness in men is so that they can live for decades with miserable wives without their empathy making the situation intolerable.)
posted by clawsoon at 4:38 AM on August 22, 2022 [44 favorites]
It is, actually, funny as hell to have any article where the author leans into corny business-speak to explain to dudes why they aren't appealing partners. I'm just imagining a Matthew McConaughey guy in a suit very seriously making air quotes with his fingers as he says to a client, "What I'm saying is, you have to 'bring up' your 'skills deficit' so you can be more 'competitive' in the 'romantic sphere.' Because unfortunately right now women think you are an 'asshole.'"
In my experience, women would love to be with a rich, charming guy who's six feet tall, has a giant dick and a great job, much as many men would love to be with, say, a woman who looks like a porn star, loves football, and has an encyclopedic knowledge of the Star Wars franchise. Much as most of us would love to have a huge chocolate sundae for dinner every night and wake up whenever we want. But that's not, like, where the bar is set. There are a lot of conditions that keep people involuntarily single. Some of them we can fix, some we can't. But if we fix the ones we can fix (and sometimes it's as simple as just being in the right environment), we can find someone. We really can.
posted by kittens for breakfast at 4:52 AM on August 22, 2022 [13 favorites]
In my experience, women would love to be with a rich, charming guy who's six feet tall, has a giant dick and a great job, much as many men would love to be with, say, a woman who looks like a porn star, loves football, and has an encyclopedic knowledge of the Star Wars franchise. Much as most of us would love to have a huge chocolate sundae for dinner every night and wake up whenever we want. But that's not, like, where the bar is set. There are a lot of conditions that keep people involuntarily single. Some of them we can fix, some we can't. But if we fix the ones we can fix (and sometimes it's as simple as just being in the right environment), we can find someone. We really can.
posted by kittens for breakfast at 4:52 AM on August 22, 2022 [13 favorites]
Not sure about this article. Some of it seems to buy into some of the same fundamental ideas of the mens rights activism (MRA) movement.
In the MRA worldview sufficiently attractive men are "Chads" who get all the sex they want. Insufficiently attractive men are doomed to die Virgins instead. In the Pick Up Artist section of the movement a Virgin can become a Chad by learning the right skills. In the Incel section of the movement Virgins are just doomed. The Reddit thread talks about 5/10 on an imagined attractiveness as the cut off, assuming a 5 can be raised to a 7 through good grooming etc.
But if you're a male 3, why can't you just partner with a female 3?
In the MRA mind, this is because humans are polygamous. A female 3 would rather be having occasional casual sex with a Chad 9 than settle for a 3 husband.
This is of course absolute bullshit. Most women (and most men) want to be in monogamous relationship. Most women would rather have an exclusive relationship than be number 6 on the booty call list of a really hot Chad.
The 62% male statistic in the article seems to a bit dubious too. This seems to come from a 2015 survey of "location based dating apps". I'm not convinced that applies the whole of modern dating. I'm not sure if it even accounts for obvious problems like duplicate profiles like the airline pilot, specials forces operative and human rights lawyer who all have the same profile pic.
The article is annoying MRAs because it criticises men and implies women have better social skills. But although that part of it annoys them, in other ways it reinforces their worldview: that in previous generations a dishevelled guy with a scraggly beard who gets out of breath climbing a flight of stairs would had a fit and attractive girlfriend, but the modern world has cheated him out the hot babe he's entitled to.
posted by TheophileEscargot at 5:00 AM on August 22, 2022 [14 favorites]
In the MRA worldview sufficiently attractive men are "Chads" who get all the sex they want. Insufficiently attractive men are doomed to die Virgins instead. In the Pick Up Artist section of the movement a Virgin can become a Chad by learning the right skills. In the Incel section of the movement Virgins are just doomed. The Reddit thread talks about 5/10 on an imagined attractiveness as the cut off, assuming a 5 can be raised to a 7 through good grooming etc.
But if you're a male 3, why can't you just partner with a female 3?
In the MRA mind, this is because humans are polygamous. A female 3 would rather be having occasional casual sex with a Chad 9 than settle for a 3 husband.
This is of course absolute bullshit. Most women (and most men) want to be in monogamous relationship. Most women would rather have an exclusive relationship than be number 6 on the booty call list of a really hot Chad.
The 62% male statistic in the article seems to a bit dubious too. This seems to come from a 2015 survey of "location based dating apps". I'm not convinced that applies the whole of modern dating. I'm not sure if it even accounts for obvious problems like duplicate profiles like the airline pilot, specials forces operative and human rights lawyer who all have the same profile pic.
The article is annoying MRAs because it criticises men and implies women have better social skills. But although that part of it annoys them, in other ways it reinforces their worldview: that in previous generations a dishevelled guy with a scraggly beard who gets out of breath climbing a flight of stairs would had a fit and attractive girlfriend, but the modern world has cheated him out the hot babe he's entitled to.
posted by TheophileEscargot at 5:00 AM on August 22, 2022 [14 favorites]
It's tough for me to even accept that a men's rights thread from reddit would be posted here. It contains outright misogynistic hate speech.
But at least it's very clear with even a quick parsing of that thread.
It means seeing intimacy, romance, and emotional connection as worthy of your time and effort.
See, yeah, that's the thing. So many people probably don't set out for any relationship thinking of intimacy and emotional connection as key to gaining a long-term relationship.
posted by tiny frying pan at 5:08 AM on August 22, 2022 [7 favorites]
But at least it's very clear with even a quick parsing of that thread.
It means seeing intimacy, romance, and emotional connection as worthy of your time and effort.
See, yeah, that's the thing. So many people probably don't set out for any relationship thinking of intimacy and emotional connection as key to gaining a long-term relationship.
posted by tiny frying pan at 5:08 AM on August 22, 2022 [7 favorites]
I count as a friend the person who came up with and popularized the term "incel" because they needed to talk about what they were feeling and wanted to find others who felt it too, and create a community who could help each other.
Which was successful, clearly, except the "helpful" response most self-described incels came up with to their situation was to hunker down, weep, moan and blame others; rather than work on developing the interpersonal skills they were lacking.
Which my friend did, and is now very happily getting as much attention as they want.
posted by seanmpuckett at 5:11 AM on August 22, 2022 [10 favorites]
Which was successful, clearly, except the "helpful" response most self-described incels came up with to their situation was to hunker down, weep, moan and blame others; rather than work on developing the interpersonal skills they were lacking.
Which my friend did, and is now very happily getting as much attention as they want.
posted by seanmpuckett at 5:11 AM on August 22, 2022 [10 favorites]
Most women (and most men) want to be in monogamous relationship.
A corollary to this is that (according to studies) the proportions of men and women who intrinsically prefer nonmonogamy are equal; women tend more towards monogamy because society punishes nonmonogamous women more harshly than nonmonogamous men.
posted by acb at 5:27 AM on August 22, 2022 [6 favorites]
A corollary to this is that (according to studies) the proportions of men and women who intrinsically prefer nonmonogamy are equal; women tend more towards monogamy because society punishes nonmonogamous women more harshly than nonmonogamous men.
posted by acb at 5:27 AM on August 22, 2022 [6 favorites]
TheophileEscargot: "in other ways it reinforces their worldview: that in previous generations a dishevelled guy with a scraggly beard who gets out of breath climbing a flight of stairs would had a fit and attractive girlfriend, but the modern world has cheated him out the hot babe he's entitled to."
Interesting. I didn't get anything about "entitled" from it, I actually got the opposite.
As other people in this thread have said: "I am so fucking glad that I earn a good, not great but stable, salary so I can support myself and date for love, not money. And that I can choose men for their great personality and a fun time together versus seeing them as income potential" and "the old way of doing things where women are willing to put up with horrible men because women are economically desperate, men have all the economic power, and there's endless social pressure on women to embrace servitude".
In other words, it's not that men are entitled to women and the issue is that modern men aren't getting the women that they do deserve. Rather, it's that men are not entitled to women, yet due to the lack of economic and social freedom, men in the past did get the women that they didn't deserve. Now that artificial crutch is gone so modern men will have to make more of an effort.
At least, that's how it came across to me.
posted by Bugbread at 5:28 AM on August 22, 2022 [42 favorites]
Interesting. I didn't get anything about "entitled" from it, I actually got the opposite.
As other people in this thread have said: "I am so fucking glad that I earn a good, not great but stable, salary so I can support myself and date for love, not money. And that I can choose men for their great personality and a fun time together versus seeing them as income potential" and "the old way of doing things where women are willing to put up with horrible men because women are economically desperate, men have all the economic power, and there's endless social pressure on women to embrace servitude".
In other words, it's not that men are entitled to women and the issue is that modern men aren't getting the women that they do deserve. Rather, it's that men are not entitled to women, yet due to the lack of economic and social freedom, men in the past did get the women that they didn't deserve. Now that artificial crutch is gone so modern men will have to make more of an effort.
At least, that's how it came across to me.
posted by Bugbread at 5:28 AM on August 22, 2022 [42 favorites]
This came across my Twitter feed (the article, not the vile subreddit) and my response was: "Men surprised to learn women have had standards this entire time."
Internet dating was in its infancy when I was single in the early 00s; it was Craigslist or OK Cupid for me back then, and it was shitty then, and now with all the various apps? Christ, if anything happens to my partner, I'm just buying the best reviewed vibrator online and calling it a day.
posted by Kitteh at 6:20 AM on August 22, 2022 [28 favorites]
Internet dating was in its infancy when I was single in the early 00s; it was Craigslist or OK Cupid for me back then, and it was shitty then, and now with all the various apps? Christ, if anything happens to my partner, I'm just buying the best reviewed vibrator online and calling it a day.
posted by Kitteh at 6:20 AM on August 22, 2022 [28 favorites]
the best reviewed vibrator online
If you think online dating is bad, have you been keeping up with all the problems around fake paid reviews online? :-D
posted by clawsoon at 6:30 AM on August 22, 2022 [9 favorites]
If you think online dating is bad, have you been keeping up with all the problems around fake paid reviews online? :-D
posted by clawsoon at 6:30 AM on August 22, 2022 [9 favorites]
In other words, it's not that men are entitled to women and the issue is that modern men aren't getting the women that they do deserve. Rather, it's that men are not entitled to women, yet due to the lack of economic and social freedom, men in the past did get the women that they didn't deserve. Now that artificial crutch is gone so modern men will have to make more of an effort.
This just replicates the bad logic of the original post and the MRA thread. Nobody "deserves" anybody and the whole idea that you get a relationship because of what a good communicator you are or as a prize for Working On Yourself or whatever is not fundamentally any different from incel whining about how you have to be six feet tall. Profoundly dysfunctional people find each other (and non-dysfunctional partners) all the time. Whether you get to be in a relationship or not is fundamentally a product of chance and opportunity, and not being in a relationship is not a sign of personal failure (even if that personal failure is being the type of unreflective dude Mefites love to hate on).
I'm being harsh about this because it's really important to reject the narrative in the post and in some of these comments. Millions of people of every gender and none are falsely convinced that they are not in a relationship because they don't deserve to be or because they're missing something essential, and this thinking contributes to everything from depression to interpersonal aggression. The point about "just world hypothesis" upthread is really crucial--we have to be able to say, look, it's important to be communicative and you will have a better time in your relationship and living in your own head generally if you unlearn habits bred into you by toxic masculinity, without endorsing the idea that dating is a competition in which the best player wins.
posted by derrinyet at 6:50 AM on August 22, 2022 [47 favorites]
This just replicates the bad logic of the original post and the MRA thread. Nobody "deserves" anybody and the whole idea that you get a relationship because of what a good communicator you are or as a prize for Working On Yourself or whatever is not fundamentally any different from incel whining about how you have to be six feet tall. Profoundly dysfunctional people find each other (and non-dysfunctional partners) all the time. Whether you get to be in a relationship or not is fundamentally a product of chance and opportunity, and not being in a relationship is not a sign of personal failure (even if that personal failure is being the type of unreflective dude Mefites love to hate on).
I'm being harsh about this because it's really important to reject the narrative in the post and in some of these comments. Millions of people of every gender and none are falsely convinced that they are not in a relationship because they don't deserve to be or because they're missing something essential, and this thinking contributes to everything from depression to interpersonal aggression. The point about "just world hypothesis" upthread is really crucial--we have to be able to say, look, it's important to be communicative and you will have a better time in your relationship and living in your own head generally if you unlearn habits bred into you by toxic masculinity, without endorsing the idea that dating is a competition in which the best player wins.
posted by derrinyet at 6:50 AM on August 22, 2022 [47 favorites]
I hear recurring dating themes from women between the ages of 25 and 45: They prefer men who are emotionally available, who are good communicators, and who share their values.
I'm willing to bet that 50 years ago women mostly wanted those same things, but (as has been pointed out) were often forced by economic and social restrictions to settle for relationships that did not meet those criteria.
Now, the bar has been raised, which is great. However, plenty of men didn't get the memo (or to put it more sympathetically, didn't receive the right kind of nurturing, mentoring, and social support to develop those skills) and so there's an increasing mismatch. The unfortunate aspect is that it results in there being a lot of lonely people of all genders, and will continue to do so until more men start to raise their social game.
posted by Dip Flash at 6:54 AM on August 22, 2022 [8 favorites]
I'm willing to bet that 50 years ago women mostly wanted those same things, but (as has been pointed out) were often forced by economic and social restrictions to settle for relationships that did not meet those criteria.
Now, the bar has been raised, which is great. However, plenty of men didn't get the memo (or to put it more sympathetically, didn't receive the right kind of nurturing, mentoring, and social support to develop those skills) and so there's an increasing mismatch. The unfortunate aspect is that it results in there being a lot of lonely people of all genders, and will continue to do so until more men start to raise their social game.
posted by Dip Flash at 6:54 AM on August 22, 2022 [8 favorites]
I'm willing to bet that 50 years ago women mostly wanted those same things, but (as has been pointed out) were often forced by economic and social restrictions to settle for relationships that did not meet those criteria.
My younger sister is in a marriage where it feels like the slightly modernized take on this, and I wish she believed she is strong enough to deserve better.
posted by Kitteh at 7:06 AM on August 22, 2022 [2 favorites]
My younger sister is in a marriage where it feels like the slightly modernized take on this, and I wish she believed she is strong enough to deserve better.
posted by Kitteh at 7:06 AM on August 22, 2022 [2 favorites]
I mean, I dunno. It just seems like even the conversation in this thread is driven by the underlying idea that there's like, a points system, where people with the most points across the categories are matched up with equally high-scoring partners. In this view gender equality consists of women getting to collectively change how many points you get for communicativeness, thus leading more communicative men to get a higher score. In the past men who would have scored lower in the new system got to be paired up with higher-scoring women, and it's good that now those lower-scoring men have to be content with lower-scoring partners or being single.
Setting aside whether there's any real empirical evidence for any of this whatsoever, there are a lot of fucked up capitalist and patriarchal and heteronormative assumptions embedded in that thinking! For one thing, it implies that people who are lower-scoring should settle for being treated more poorly, or accept the fact that their options are either having lower-scoring partners or being single.
posted by derrinyet at 7:27 AM on August 22, 2022 [17 favorites]
Setting aside whether there's any real empirical evidence for any of this whatsoever, there are a lot of fucked up capitalist and patriarchal and heteronormative assumptions embedded in that thinking! For one thing, it implies that people who are lower-scoring should settle for being treated more poorly, or accept the fact that their options are either having lower-scoring partners or being single.
posted by derrinyet at 7:27 AM on August 22, 2022 [17 favorites]
"That means getting into some individual therapy to address your skills gap..."
This is true, no doubt. But what's also true is something that doesn't sell magazines or clickviews, that a good part of 'success' in dating and finding a partner is dumb fucking luck.
You can makes changes in yourself to improve your luck (and you should), but it's still a matter of luck to find that one person in the universe with whom you're compatible. To find them, in the right time, in the right place, in the right state, and have the same be true for them as well -- luck.
Some people are lucky, and some aren't. Sometimes there's no fault or lacking at all.
posted by Capt. Renault at 7:35 AM on August 22, 2022 [22 favorites]
This is true, no doubt. But what's also true is something that doesn't sell magazines or clickviews, that a good part of 'success' in dating and finding a partner is dumb fucking luck.
You can makes changes in yourself to improve your luck (and you should), but it's still a matter of luck to find that one person in the universe with whom you're compatible. To find them, in the right time, in the right place, in the right state, and have the same be true for them as well -- luck.
Some people are lucky, and some aren't. Sometimes there's no fault or lacking at all.
posted by Capt. Renault at 7:35 AM on August 22, 2022 [22 favorites]
I think you can say that refusing to develop your ethics/ self knowledge/ etc. can in fact reduce your chances of finding a good partner or any partner without making dating a competition.
In fact, regarding dating/partnering as something that can be "won" is a weird thing that lots of people do, which is the whole problem. Partners aren't prizes, they're people.
And straight women especially aren't gold medals for dudes to win. But we can look at a potential partner and assess whether being with them would be enjoyable, supportive and safe. We can and should have the ability to articulate what those attributes are. Men don't have to care, but if they do want to be our partners, then it might be worth their while to ask whether they have those qualities.
None of which guarantees them a partner because again, it's not a competition.
posted by emjaybee at 7:35 AM on August 22, 2022 [20 favorites]
In fact, regarding dating/partnering as something that can be "won" is a weird thing that lots of people do, which is the whole problem. Partners aren't prizes, they're people.
And straight women especially aren't gold medals for dudes to win. But we can look at a potential partner and assess whether being with them would be enjoyable, supportive and safe. We can and should have the ability to articulate what those attributes are. Men don't have to care, but if they do want to be our partners, then it might be worth their while to ask whether they have those qualities.
None of which guarantees them a partner because again, it's not a competition.
posted by emjaybee at 7:35 AM on August 22, 2022 [20 favorites]
We have to keep in mind that "I did what society asked, but I didn't get the rewards society promised" is a real source of plausibly justifiable anger. What one does with that anger is the key. Dudes have to realize they were lied to, that the "rewards" are not now (and should never have been) simply chattel to be awarded.
These lies are still being told, and the sooner one gets the correction into their heads, the better off they, and everyone around them, will be.
posted by seanmpuckett at 7:35 AM on August 22, 2022 [20 favorites]
These lies are still being told, and the sooner one gets the correction into their heads, the better off they, and everyone around them, will be.
posted by seanmpuckett at 7:35 AM on August 22, 2022 [20 favorites]
Ok I was prepared to be snarky about this, but the last couple of paragraphs of the article really struck me.
Level up your mental health game. That means getting into some individual therapy to address your skills gap. It means valuing your own internal world and respecting your ideas enough to communicate them effectively. It means seeing intimacy, romance, and emotional connection as worthy of your time and effort.
Ultimately, we have an opportunity to revolutionize romantic relationships and establish new, healthier norms starting with the first date. It’s likely that some of these romances will be transformative and healing, disrupting generational trauma and establishing a fresh culture of admiration and validation.
I think about the men I work with in an inpatient psychiatry unit who are being treated for depression and suicide ideation/attempts, and these last few sentences express a sentiment that I think I will try to adopt when working with them. So thanks for sharing this.
posted by EllaEm at 7:45 AM on August 22, 2022 [29 favorites]
Level up your mental health game. That means getting into some individual therapy to address your skills gap. It means valuing your own internal world and respecting your ideas enough to communicate them effectively. It means seeing intimacy, romance, and emotional connection as worthy of your time and effort.
Ultimately, we have an opportunity to revolutionize romantic relationships and establish new, healthier norms starting with the first date. It’s likely that some of these romances will be transformative and healing, disrupting generational trauma and establishing a fresh culture of admiration and validation.
I think about the men I work with in an inpatient psychiatry unit who are being treated for depression and suicide ideation/attempts, and these last few sentences express a sentiment that I think I will try to adopt when working with them. So thanks for sharing this.
posted by EllaEm at 7:45 AM on August 22, 2022 [29 favorites]
derrinyet, the way I phrase what you said to men (and women) who are frustrated about dating/dipping into toxic ideas is "I cannot promise you success if you try, but I can promise that you will fail if you do not." when it comes to finding a healthy, fulfilling, mutually beneficial relationship with a romantic partner.
I try to help in my own small way when I see these toxic, nihilist, zero-sum sort of threads play out in spaces about dating. Ambiguity is hard, people like trying to comfort themselves that they can accrue points like it's some sort of rewards program then cash them in. Obviously, they can't. It is why right-wing ideologies are so appealing, they present a black/white worldview centered around whatever topic aggrieves the person and that can be blamed for pain and failure. The manosphere is no different than nationalism bemoaning "immigrants taking our jerbs", it's just "chad alpha hypergamy blah blah taking our women".
Anyway, I try to connect with one person when these sort of threads come up (I am still subbed to r/datingoverthirty) and hopefully, ever so slightly improve the trajectory of someone's thoughts and actions more toward kindness. It's really all I can think to do because I wish everyone whatever will most fulfill and enliven their existence.
(Also, r/menslib is indeed a good reddit forum. It is important to work on a positive, loving, kind version of masculinity, we can't just discard it into a trash bin as much as some might want to.)
posted by OnTheLastCastle at 8:19 AM on August 22, 2022 [11 favorites]
I try to help in my own small way when I see these toxic, nihilist, zero-sum sort of threads play out in spaces about dating. Ambiguity is hard, people like trying to comfort themselves that they can accrue points like it's some sort of rewards program then cash them in. Obviously, they can't. It is why right-wing ideologies are so appealing, they present a black/white worldview centered around whatever topic aggrieves the person and that can be blamed for pain and failure. The manosphere is no different than nationalism bemoaning "immigrants taking our jerbs", it's just "chad alpha hypergamy blah blah taking our women".
Anyway, I try to connect with one person when these sort of threads come up (I am still subbed to r/datingoverthirty) and hopefully, ever so slightly improve the trajectory of someone's thoughts and actions more toward kindness. It's really all I can think to do because I wish everyone whatever will most fulfill and enliven their existence.
(Also, r/menslib is indeed a good reddit forum. It is important to work on a positive, loving, kind version of masculinity, we can't just discard it into a trash bin as much as some might want to.)
posted by OnTheLastCastle at 8:19 AM on August 22, 2022 [11 favorites]
derrinyet, the way I phrase what you said to men (and women) who are frustrated about dating/dipping into toxic ideas is "I cannot promise you success if you try, but I can promise that you will fail if you do not." when it comes to finding a healthy, fulfilling, mutually beneficial relationship with a romantic partner.
Right, I think the "healthy, fulfilling, mutually beneficial" part is key here. You can end up in a bad relationship pretty easily given chance and opportunity even if you're the most toxic incel around but what good does that do you? A bad relationship isn't better than no relationship, it's usually a lot worse. Developing these skills is worthwhile for the peace it brings you in your relationship with yourself and improves your life regardless of whether you're single or not.
posted by derrinyet at 8:26 AM on August 22, 2022 [5 favorites]
Right, I think the "healthy, fulfilling, mutually beneficial" part is key here. You can end up in a bad relationship pretty easily given chance and opportunity even if you're the most toxic incel around but what good does that do you? A bad relationship isn't better than no relationship, it's usually a lot worse. Developing these skills is worthwhile for the peace it brings you in your relationship with yourself and improves your life regardless of whether you're single or not.
posted by derrinyet at 8:26 AM on August 22, 2022 [5 favorites]
Instead, the primary problem was the declining real wages of young men.
This has flavors of the racist "replacement theory" crap to me.
Leaving aside the "declining real" part, since everyone's wages have been declining in real terms...
Men have been out-earning women by large amounts for a long, long time, which is one of the factors that allow them to feel/be socially dominant and preferred. In recent times, that gap has been closing. So men are feeling a relative loss of power? And we should ... recognize this as a problem and pity their relative displacement on the power spectrum?
In reality, however, the gap is still substantial. Men don't have grounds for complaint here.
posted by Dashy at 8:47 AM on August 22, 2022 [12 favorites]
This has flavors of the racist "replacement theory" crap to me.
Leaving aside the "declining real" part, since everyone's wages have been declining in real terms...
Men have been out-earning women by large amounts for a long, long time, which is one of the factors that allow them to feel/be socially dominant and preferred. In recent times, that gap has been closing. So men are feeling a relative loss of power? And we should ... recognize this as a problem and pity their relative displacement on the power spectrum?
In reality, however, the gap is still substantial. Men don't have grounds for complaint here.
posted by Dashy at 8:47 AM on August 22, 2022 [12 favorites]
Purity testing who has a right to complain is a great way to chase everyone away to go be further radicalized. Can all of us non-oligarchs be mad at the oligarchs when it comes to wealth disparity?
posted by OnTheLastCastle at 8:59 AM on August 22, 2022 [11 favorites]
posted by OnTheLastCastle at 8:59 AM on August 22, 2022 [11 favorites]
Women aren't wealth. People aren't things. You don't earn them. They are not a resource to be allocated.
WOMEN ARE PEOPLE I guess I need to keep saying that.
posted by emjaybee at 9:18 AM on August 22, 2022 [43 favorites]
WOMEN ARE PEOPLE I guess I need to keep saying that.
posted by emjaybee at 9:18 AM on August 22, 2022 [43 favorites]
I think there's some talking past each other here, in that there has been a lowering of real earning power for everyone, and wealth does, in fact, make a difference in how easy it is to date, for a lot of reasons.
On the other hand, being mad at women for slowly earning more relative to men is messed up, as is expecting women to just been another form of wealth you can collect.
posted by sagc at 9:26 AM on August 22, 2022 [10 favorites]
On the other hand, being mad at women for slowly earning more relative to men is messed up, as is expecting women to just been another form of wealth you can collect.
posted by sagc at 9:26 AM on August 22, 2022 [10 favorites]
A bad relationship isn't better than no relationship, it's usually a lot worse.
Not sure that is is objectively true. Lots of people seem to prefer a relationship to no relationship: The abused, lazy dudes, and parents with kids become a heavy confounding factor towards ending bad relationships. Also, people change. Relationships can start out good, and become bad. Being a good communicator doesn't really help if your spouse turns into a conspiracy theorist or a COVID denier.
Also, I saw this discussed on some other site recently, and someone made a point that the economically suppressed category wasn't upper middle class white dues, even if they get a lot of press, but rather mostly previously incarcerated black males. This link says 52% of black males never marry vs 37% of all men, and 'currently married' is 33% vs 50%. And white women generally outearn black males, so there is a income gap there too.
posted by The_Vegetables at 9:28 AM on August 22, 2022 [2 favorites]
Not sure that is is objectively true. Lots of people seem to prefer a relationship to no relationship: The abused, lazy dudes, and parents with kids become a heavy confounding factor towards ending bad relationships. Also, people change. Relationships can start out good, and become bad. Being a good communicator doesn't really help if your spouse turns into a conspiracy theorist or a COVID denier.
Also, I saw this discussed on some other site recently, and someone made a point that the economically suppressed category wasn't upper middle class white dues, even if they get a lot of press, but rather mostly previously incarcerated black males. This link says 52% of black males never marry vs 37% of all men, and 'currently married' is 33% vs 50%. And white women generally outearn black males, so there is a income gap there too.
posted by The_Vegetables at 9:28 AM on August 22, 2022 [2 favorites]
I've been trying to dig up actual data on the percentage of men and women who have been "long-term single" over history, but haven't actually found much. The most useful I found was the graph "Figure 2. Current Marital Status of Women, 1900-2018" from this paper which has a grey bar for women who have never married. It says:
So I'm not convinced modern men have it worse at all. I think there were probably more men dying virgins in 1900 than today. They still had the "31% unmarried females", but far fewer of that 31% would have been in out-of-wedlock relationships.
posted by TheophileEscargot at 9:30 AM on August 22, 2022 [8 favorites]
The percentage of women who were never married was the same in 2018 as it was in 1900 (31%). It reached its lowest percentage in 1960 when only 17% of women were never married.So on the one hand it seems to be true that women are more likely to remain single than over the last few decades. But the graph seems to show a pretty smooth trend since 1960, so I don't really buy the idea that this is because Internet Dating or Tinder has made low-value men more disposable. And it doesn't seem unprecedented. A guy in 1960 had a better chance of ending up married than today, but a guy in 1900 was no better off. And a larger fraction of that 31% unmarried women are probably in long-term relationships but just not legally married these days than a century ago.
So I'm not convinced modern men have it worse at all. I think there were probably more men dying virgins in 1900 than today. They still had the "31% unmarried females", but far fewer of that 31% would have been in out-of-wedlock relationships.
posted by TheophileEscargot at 9:30 AM on August 22, 2022 [8 favorites]
Since I am raising a son (currently 14), I've been thinking about this topic with a lot less bitterness, blame, anger and more empathy, proactiveness, and honestly, sadness. Here's a slightly haphazard, disjointed thought dump of the things I've been thinking of through the years.
- At around 5th grade my son's friend group became 100% boys quite suddenly. This is normal for sure, but at the time (and still, even now) it was discomfiting. How can I, as the parent, nudge this societal pattern in a different way? My about-to-start-6th-grade daughter has a mixed gender friend group still but middle school is bound to change this. What a tragedy that would be! The "othering" of girls vs. boys and women vs. men surely has a few roots in informal segregation at school. I think parents need to work a lot harder to break through the tribalism. It's not that all-girl/all-boy hangouts are bad, because access to same-gender spaces are EXTRA necessary for teens. But all-girl / all-boy **primary friend groups** should ideally be nudged towards gender diversity I think.
- My kid is an earnest, sensitive geek and somehow, still a real innocence. All his friends are like this, too. I am surprised by their earnestness and innocence every day and I wonder what it is that leads me to be so surprised. It's led me to realize that we have a pernicious expectation that teenage boys will be obnoxious, rude, monosyllabic, chest thumpy, disrespectful, etc. And yes, may of them are like that in many contexts, but I wonder how many are just living down to our expectations of them. My son talks to me all the time, I know him pretty well, AND YET there are instances when I misinterpret his words/actions/motivations along the lines of my expectations of teen boys. Like the other day he refused to run to the store for milk, and I rolled my eyes and said, "Yeah, yeah, I know it's your job as a 14 yr old to be grumpy about chores, but come on, get going," and he turned to me with a fleeting hurt in his eyes and said, "I'm not being a teenager, I just feel extra anxious about talking to cashiers today." It's a very small example but this is the point: in how many little ways do even well-meaning, indulgent, "understanding" adults communicate to teen boys exactly what we think of them? Don't these communications from us nudge them into toxic masculine roles as surely as anything else more overtly sinister?
- Alt right propaganda is real and it's *everywhere*. Recently my son shared with me a "hilarious" parody song video that was racist af, but in ways that he cannot decode. For example the song had a joke about how Osama and Obama sound the same - how would a kid born in 2008 understand this dogwhistle? So it fell to me to tell him the song was racist. I tried to get through without pushing too hard. I had to say, "Yeah, dude, this is hilarious! I love this joke and this joke in it, lol. But listen, I have more context on this other joke and I was alive when it first was created, and let me tell you, this is a Trumpian thing." If I say the word Trumpian, he *gets* it much more easily than if I explain about post 9/11 Islamophobia. And I have to make sure I don't act like a wet blanket so he doesn't want to show me any of his funny videos anymore. It's such a tightrope!!! Our boys are being recruited into the manosphere and into white supremacy from under our noses, and it's impossible for parents to intervene unless we build & keep credibility with teen boys.
- As shit as that MensRights thread is, I see a theme in there which is echoed by things my kid and his friends have told me a couple of times: that they have no idea what girls were expecting of them in certain particular interactions, and they wonder why the girls acted like the boys were stupid/annoying/disgusting when the boys hadn't done anything at all. [I'll pause here to say (a) none of these involved any lines being crossed by either party, and (b) it's absolutely a privilege these boys have that their befuddlement is more about "these girls act like I'm a piece of shit but I didn't do anything" as opposed to "these boys harass/assault/creep on me." Having said that --] My point is: Here is another root of the theme that seems to grow into something toxic if boys are allowed to grow into men without resolving these feelings properly. I read that MRA thread and all I see are boys, boys, boys who were never helped to work through the shame and confusion they felt when girls were randomly mean to them one time. This is NOT a justification of MRAs! It's an explanation. I think we are failing boys when we let these feelings and these questions fester in their minds, and leave them alone to muddle through. These boys are children. So are the girls they're interacting with. They are all, boys and girls and everyone, GOING to fuck up with each other. I think we are all missing some crucial opportunities when we dismiss these interactions as small potatoes. When we hear a boy say, "That girl laughed at me!" and our response is "Men are afraid women will laugh at them, women are afraid men will kill them," or even if we say "Just ignore her, this is not a big deal," that's a lost opportunity to educate a boy in how to deal with his emotions. We gotta help boys WORK THROUGH THIS stuff. Help them reach an understanding on an individual level. That's what resolves their feelings. Unresolved feelings are the ones that can fester and grow into MRA toxicity. Boys have gendered social power, it's much more dangerous when they come to misogynistic conclusions! (Lots of girls come to the conclusion that boys are creepy and disgusting, and often women carry this belief into adulthood, but it's not causing systemic harm because these beliefs don't have systemic power. Indeed, this belief is often a good defense that protects women and girls in a world that is hostile to us... But on another level, this too is a tragedy, isn't it?)
I guess the overarching theme to all the notes above is that I have noticed a lot of ways in which we are letting boys down when they are children. For me personally, in addition to educating my son on gender politics, in addition to helping him unlearn the sense of entitlement and all the sexist beliefs fed to him by society, I also try very hard to *protect* him, to protect the softer side of him, to nurture the part of him that feels hurt and outraged and shamed and excluded - even if it's caused by girls. I don't think it's indulgent or that it causes gendered entitlement. It's not possible for a man to grow up whole if he hasn't been helped to work through all of these feelings.
posted by MiraK at 9:40 AM on August 22, 2022 [163 favorites]
- At around 5th grade my son's friend group became 100% boys quite suddenly. This is normal for sure, but at the time (and still, even now) it was discomfiting. How can I, as the parent, nudge this societal pattern in a different way? My about-to-start-6th-grade daughter has a mixed gender friend group still but middle school is bound to change this. What a tragedy that would be! The "othering" of girls vs. boys and women vs. men surely has a few roots in informal segregation at school. I think parents need to work a lot harder to break through the tribalism. It's not that all-girl/all-boy hangouts are bad, because access to same-gender spaces are EXTRA necessary for teens. But all-girl / all-boy **primary friend groups** should ideally be nudged towards gender diversity I think.
- My kid is an earnest, sensitive geek and somehow, still a real innocence. All his friends are like this, too. I am surprised by their earnestness and innocence every day and I wonder what it is that leads me to be so surprised. It's led me to realize that we have a pernicious expectation that teenage boys will be obnoxious, rude, monosyllabic, chest thumpy, disrespectful, etc. And yes, may of them are like that in many contexts, but I wonder how many are just living down to our expectations of them. My son talks to me all the time, I know him pretty well, AND YET there are instances when I misinterpret his words/actions/motivations along the lines of my expectations of teen boys. Like the other day he refused to run to the store for milk, and I rolled my eyes and said, "Yeah, yeah, I know it's your job as a 14 yr old to be grumpy about chores, but come on, get going," and he turned to me with a fleeting hurt in his eyes and said, "I'm not being a teenager, I just feel extra anxious about talking to cashiers today." It's a very small example but this is the point: in how many little ways do even well-meaning, indulgent, "understanding" adults communicate to teen boys exactly what we think of them? Don't these communications from us nudge them into toxic masculine roles as surely as anything else more overtly sinister?
- Alt right propaganda is real and it's *everywhere*. Recently my son shared with me a "hilarious" parody song video that was racist af, but in ways that he cannot decode. For example the song had a joke about how Osama and Obama sound the same - how would a kid born in 2008 understand this dogwhistle? So it fell to me to tell him the song was racist. I tried to get through without pushing too hard. I had to say, "Yeah, dude, this is hilarious! I love this joke and this joke in it, lol. But listen, I have more context on this other joke and I was alive when it first was created, and let me tell you, this is a Trumpian thing." If I say the word Trumpian, he *gets* it much more easily than if I explain about post 9/11 Islamophobia. And I have to make sure I don't act like a wet blanket so he doesn't want to show me any of his funny videos anymore. It's such a tightrope!!! Our boys are being recruited into the manosphere and into white supremacy from under our noses, and it's impossible for parents to intervene unless we build & keep credibility with teen boys.
- As shit as that MensRights thread is, I see a theme in there which is echoed by things my kid and his friends have told me a couple of times: that they have no idea what girls were expecting of them in certain particular interactions, and they wonder why the girls acted like the boys were stupid/annoying/disgusting when the boys hadn't done anything at all. [I'll pause here to say (a) none of these involved any lines being crossed by either party, and (b) it's absolutely a privilege these boys have that their befuddlement is more about "these girls act like I'm a piece of shit but I didn't do anything" as opposed to "these boys harass/assault/creep on me." Having said that --] My point is: Here is another root of the theme that seems to grow into something toxic if boys are allowed to grow into men without resolving these feelings properly. I read that MRA thread and all I see are boys, boys, boys who were never helped to work through the shame and confusion they felt when girls were randomly mean to them one time. This is NOT a justification of MRAs! It's an explanation. I think we are failing boys when we let these feelings and these questions fester in their minds, and leave them alone to muddle through. These boys are children. So are the girls they're interacting with. They are all, boys and girls and everyone, GOING to fuck up with each other. I think we are all missing some crucial opportunities when we dismiss these interactions as small potatoes. When we hear a boy say, "That girl laughed at me!" and our response is "Men are afraid women will laugh at them, women are afraid men will kill them," or even if we say "Just ignore her, this is not a big deal," that's a lost opportunity to educate a boy in how to deal with his emotions. We gotta help boys WORK THROUGH THIS stuff. Help them reach an understanding on an individual level. That's what resolves their feelings. Unresolved feelings are the ones that can fester and grow into MRA toxicity. Boys have gendered social power, it's much more dangerous when they come to misogynistic conclusions! (Lots of girls come to the conclusion that boys are creepy and disgusting, and often women carry this belief into adulthood, but it's not causing systemic harm because these beliefs don't have systemic power. Indeed, this belief is often a good defense that protects women and girls in a world that is hostile to us... But on another level, this too is a tragedy, isn't it?)
I guess the overarching theme to all the notes above is that I have noticed a lot of ways in which we are letting boys down when they are children. For me personally, in addition to educating my son on gender politics, in addition to helping him unlearn the sense of entitlement and all the sexist beliefs fed to him by society, I also try very hard to *protect* him, to protect the softer side of him, to nurture the part of him that feels hurt and outraged and shamed and excluded - even if it's caused by girls. I don't think it's indulgent or that it causes gendered entitlement. It's not possible for a man to grow up whole if he hasn't been helped to work through all of these feelings.
posted by MiraK at 9:40 AM on August 22, 2022 [163 favorites]
I haven't dated in a very long time and when I was there were no good role models for young men anywhere. It's sad that despite all of the media and other resources available in the meantime it seems like nothing has changed at all. It might even be worse, given the ready availability of internet p*rn. It's fostered multiple generations of men who think that women are machines that somehow owe them sex, not human beings. So, in other words, I totally agree with the assessment here but don't know how this change could be made. Adding something to high school (and college?) curricula would certainly help but given the shear volume of incel-related material out there, how could it compete?
posted by tommasz at 9:57 AM on August 22, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by tommasz at 9:57 AM on August 22, 2022 [2 favorites]
MiraK, thank you so much for taking the time and spending the emotional energy to articulate all that. I agree with you.
posted by amtho at 10:01 AM on August 22, 2022 [19 favorites]
posted by amtho at 10:01 AM on August 22, 2022 [19 favorites]
As usual when the discussion turns to MRAs and incel-adjacent topics, there are many, many comments that throw out a lot more heat than light.
I read TFA, which was mercifully short and to the point. While I have little use for the median Psych Today item, I have to say that I found this one refreshing if a trifle too pat: it's much easier to suggest "getting into some individual therapy" than to actually do that, with the median person's insurance, income, time budget, and actual physical availability of therapists. I think there are many commenters here who are for some reason intent on denying that TFA has some good advice for the kind of people who spend a lot of time ruminating on MRA reddit. As TFA suggests, "there’s probably no chance of stemming the rising tide of unintentional single men," and part of why is that mental health treatment is still a joke in the US.
I see a lot of nitpicking responses about guys who of course will never be partnered because they won't even try, and a lot of derision for ones who think the only acceptable mates are women who could possibly be magazine cover models. Personally I can't hold those guys in contempt because but for the grace of God I would be one myself. Yes they let themselves be sold a load of BS and yes, before things can start getting better for them, they have to let it go. But they are not where they are because they chose to be there and tried to get there. Which BTW is a common thing about common objects of contempt.
posted by Aardvark Cheeselog at 10:02 AM on August 22, 2022 [8 favorites]
I read TFA, which was mercifully short and to the point. While I have little use for the median Psych Today item, I have to say that I found this one refreshing if a trifle too pat: it's much easier to suggest "getting into some individual therapy" than to actually do that, with the median person's insurance, income, time budget, and actual physical availability of therapists. I think there are many commenters here who are for some reason intent on denying that TFA has some good advice for the kind of people who spend a lot of time ruminating on MRA reddit. As TFA suggests, "there’s probably no chance of stemming the rising tide of unintentional single men," and part of why is that mental health treatment is still a joke in the US.
I see a lot of nitpicking responses about guys who of course will never be partnered because they won't even try, and a lot of derision for ones who think the only acceptable mates are women who could possibly be magazine cover models. Personally I can't hold those guys in contempt because but for the grace of God I would be one myself. Yes they let themselves be sold a load of BS and yes, before things can start getting better for them, they have to let it go. But they are not where they are because they chose to be there and tried to get there. Which BTW is a common thing about common objects of contempt.
posted by Aardvark Cheeselog at 10:02 AM on August 22, 2022 [8 favorites]
I hear recurring dating themes from women between the ages of 25 and 45: They prefer men who are emotionally available, who are good communicators, and who share their values.
As a to-date still-single straight-ish 46 year old lady (I'm okay with it/pretty good at being single) , my relationship preference is essentially unchanged since I was sixteen. Which is to say, I'm just looking for an empathetic best friend who wants to fool around and go on adventures with me. Whenever I tell people this, they kindly explain to me that I have set my standards too high. And my reply is that I am way more open-minded about music taste than I used to be.
It seems to me that the most important part of any relationship, romantic, platonic, or otherwise, is that the person should be someone you can talk to, relax around and genuinely enjoy hanging out with.
posted by thivaia at 10:05 AM on August 22, 2022 [55 favorites]
As a to-date still-single straight-ish 46 year old lady (I'm okay with it/pretty good at being single) , my relationship preference is essentially unchanged since I was sixteen. Which is to say, I'm just looking for an empathetic best friend who wants to fool around and go on adventures with me. Whenever I tell people this, they kindly explain to me that I have set my standards too high. And my reply is that I am way more open-minded about music taste than I used to be.
It seems to me that the most important part of any relationship, romantic, platonic, or otherwise, is that the person should be someone you can talk to, relax around and genuinely enjoy hanging out with.
posted by thivaia at 10:05 AM on August 22, 2022 [55 favorites]
I find myself deeply discouraged about approaching women, using dating apps, putting myself out there, and in general being more involved in life to be around more possibly interested people.
Maybe therapy would help with this.
It makes me very sad to think about the way patriarchy has socialised men to consider therapy an absolute waste of time, and that this article presents a solution which the men in question will write off as a waste at best, and a plot to hurt them at worst. A brief read on the linked subreddit made me want to cry for my brothers.
posted by shenkerism at 10:11 AM on August 22, 2022 [3 favorites]
Maybe therapy would help with this.
It makes me very sad to think about the way patriarchy has socialised men to consider therapy an absolute waste of time, and that this article presents a solution which the men in question will write off as a waste at best, and a plot to hurt them at worst. A brief read on the linked subreddit made me want to cry for my brothers.
posted by shenkerism at 10:11 AM on August 22, 2022 [3 favorites]
I think this entire thread could use a [CITATION NEEDED] right about now.
Whole lot of "men are like this... and women are like this..." crap floating around. Lets not push this unwarranted agenda, please.
posted by Sphinx at 10:21 AM on August 22, 2022 [5 favorites]
Whole lot of "men are like this... and women are like this..." crap floating around. Lets not push this unwarranted agenda, please.
posted by Sphinx at 10:21 AM on August 22, 2022 [5 favorites]
It's a shame this post paired the Psych Today article (which I read and appreciated) with the MRA thread (which I admittedly didn't read), because I think it conflates and lumps together different kinds of men. Yes, there are some men who will resist any suggestion towards self-awareness, education, therapy, etc. on the grounds that they believe they are entitled to sex/money/admiration/devotion and anyone who believes or argues otherwise is harming them.
And then there are men - like MiraK's son, my partner, father, male friends, teenage boys I've worked with as a therapist, male colleagues in the mental health field - who would find the PT article really refreshing and validating. These are men who share the view that patriarchy, White Supremacy, hetero-normativity (and, in some cases, specific cultural expectations around manhood/machismo) have been harmful to them personally and also have been harmful/gotten in the way of them forming the kinds of intimate, reciprocal, safe, loving relationships (with partners, friends, family members, etc.) that they crave. These men, in many instances, have taken steps to seek out support and resources (therapy, men's groups, reading books on relationships) that have greatly enhanced their lives and mine. I'm so grateful that the men closest to me have taken intentional steps towards learning increased empathy, communication/listening skills, emotional self-awareness, and vulnerability.
I really appreciated the PT article for 1: Naming/acknowledging the ways that men and boys have been denied opportunities to learn relational skills without being shaming/blaming (I mean, if it was Teen Vogue there would have been more explicit context around the role of social/cultural forces in this process, but I don't expect that level of nuance from PT). And 2: using language that is accessible, actionable, and offers an optimistic/hopeful frame. So, instead of the usual "men suck at relationships and here's all the data showing how and why," it's "men typically aren't taught/don't see demonstrations of healthy relationship skills but they can take steps towards learning/improving their skills." Similar to EllaEm, I think about men I've worked with in therapy and I imagine many of them would also appreciate this framing.
posted by sleepingwithcats at 10:26 AM on August 22, 2022 [9 favorites]
And then there are men - like MiraK's son, my partner, father, male friends, teenage boys I've worked with as a therapist, male colleagues in the mental health field - who would find the PT article really refreshing and validating. These are men who share the view that patriarchy, White Supremacy, hetero-normativity (and, in some cases, specific cultural expectations around manhood/machismo) have been harmful to them personally and also have been harmful/gotten in the way of them forming the kinds of intimate, reciprocal, safe, loving relationships (with partners, friends, family members, etc.) that they crave. These men, in many instances, have taken steps to seek out support and resources (therapy, men's groups, reading books on relationships) that have greatly enhanced their lives and mine. I'm so grateful that the men closest to me have taken intentional steps towards learning increased empathy, communication/listening skills, emotional self-awareness, and vulnerability.
I really appreciated the PT article for 1: Naming/acknowledging the ways that men and boys have been denied opportunities to learn relational skills without being shaming/blaming (I mean, if it was Teen Vogue there would have been more explicit context around the role of social/cultural forces in this process, but I don't expect that level of nuance from PT). And 2: using language that is accessible, actionable, and offers an optimistic/hopeful frame. So, instead of the usual "men suck at relationships and here's all the data showing how and why," it's "men typically aren't taught/don't see demonstrations of healthy relationship skills but they can take steps towards learning/improving their skills." Similar to EllaEm, I think about men I've worked with in therapy and I imagine many of them would also appreciate this framing.
posted by sleepingwithcats at 10:26 AM on August 22, 2022 [9 favorites]
Now we just need to get Joe Rogan and Gary Vee onboard so that we can reach all the men who are into self-improvement but are scared of trying anything that might be seen as "girly".
posted by clawsoon at 11:18 AM on August 22, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by clawsoon at 11:18 AM on August 22, 2022 [2 favorites]
I read both TFA and the MRA link (that latter one briefly), and I think that there is a flaw in the original article. It says that one way men could deal with the disadvantage would be to get into therapy to address "relationship skills". But - the biggest complaint I saw on the MRA article was "what 'skills' are they talking about?"
And while I do know what those skills are....I think it'd actually have been a good idea to give a couple of for-instance examples, for the benefit of the guys. Telling someone to get therapy, but not really giving them a couple of reasons why, doesn't...really help.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 11:19 AM on August 22, 2022 [12 favorites]
And while I do know what those skills are....I think it'd actually have been a good idea to give a couple of for-instance examples, for the benefit of the guys. Telling someone to get therapy, but not really giving them a couple of reasons why, doesn't...really help.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 11:19 AM on August 22, 2022 [12 favorites]
To be honest I find this one of the most infuriating viral articles I've seen in ages, because it smoothly and swiftly ties together a bunch of complicated and not necessarily connected things.
But the story just doesn't hang together. The decline of marriage rates started long before Tinder. There doesn't seem to be any actual evidence that therapy helps single guys get married.
You might just as easily say that the decline in marriage rates is caused by global warming but don't worry, the solution is to give all the single guys Cuban heels.
posted by TheophileEscargot at 11:25 AM on August 22, 2022 [5 favorites]
- The gradual reduction of the proportion of married people in recent decades.
- The unhappiness of single men.
- The rise of dating apps.
- Therapy as a solution to getting unhappy single men happily married.
But the story just doesn't hang together. The decline of marriage rates started long before Tinder. There doesn't seem to be any actual evidence that therapy helps single guys get married.
You might just as easily say that the decline in marriage rates is caused by global warming but don't worry, the solution is to give all the single guys Cuban heels.
posted by TheophileEscargot at 11:25 AM on August 22, 2022 [5 favorites]
You might just as easily say that the decline in marriage rates is caused by global warming but don't worry, the solution is to give all the single guys Cuban heels.
the Butterfly Effect we need?
posted by elkevelvet at 11:34 AM on August 22, 2022 [9 favorites]
the Butterfly Effect we need?
posted by elkevelvet at 11:34 AM on August 22, 2022 [9 favorites]
MiraK: I also try very hard to *protect* him, to protect the softer side of him, to nurture the part of him that feels hurt and outraged and shamed and excluded - even if it's caused by girls.
Great comment, MiraK. I'll extend this to say that one of the things you have to learn to do as a boy/man - and something that I have only succeeded at in fragmented ways for myself - is learn self-defense of your softer side in a world where boys/men are taught to root out each other's weaknesses and target them until they harden over.
If your kid is already seeing alt-right memes, it's not something you'll be able to protect him from, but he will need to learn how to protect himself.
How is that best done? No idea. I'm sure there's something better than the defenses I hacked together as a kid and young adult, though.
posted by clawsoon at 11:40 AM on August 22, 2022 [8 favorites]
Great comment, MiraK. I'll extend this to say that one of the things you have to learn to do as a boy/man - and something that I have only succeeded at in fragmented ways for myself - is learn self-defense of your softer side in a world where boys/men are taught to root out each other's weaknesses and target them until they harden over.
If your kid is already seeing alt-right memes, it's not something you'll be able to protect him from, but he will need to learn how to protect himself.
How is that best done? No idea. I'm sure there's something better than the defenses I hacked together as a kid and young adult, though.
posted by clawsoon at 11:40 AM on August 22, 2022 [8 favorites]
Some interesting discussion in here but including a link to the MRA subreddit is unnecessary and gross (and frankly really shows a lack of knowledge about MRA alternatives). Thanks to Green Winnebago for including the link to Menslib, it's a good, though not perfect, sub.
posted by mon_petit_ordinateur at 11:42 AM on August 22, 2022 [5 favorites]
posted by mon_petit_ordinateur at 11:42 AM on August 22, 2022 [5 favorites]
`When we hear a boy say, "That girl laughed at me!" and our response is "Men are afraid women will laugh at them, women are afraid men will kill them," or even if we say "Just ignore her, this is not a big deal," that's a lost opportunity to educate a boy in how to deal with his emotions.
Yup. It’s so easy to confuse micro with macro. So often, the same lens that helps us critique big-picture stuff can make us weirdly dismissive of harm that happens at the individual level, especially if it doesn’t fit official pattern/schema. Good on you for being there for your son. It’s rough out there.
posted by ducky l'orange at 12:11 PM on August 22, 2022 [16 favorites]
Yup. It’s so easy to confuse micro with macro. So often, the same lens that helps us critique big-picture stuff can make us weirdly dismissive of harm that happens at the individual level, especially if it doesn’t fit official pattern/schema. Good on you for being there for your son. It’s rough out there.
posted by ducky l'orange at 12:11 PM on August 22, 2022 [16 favorites]
My twin boys are almost 3, but I hope you're around in 10 years, MiraK to keep providing that amazing counsel. It's not that I didn't consider having boys (I have an older brother I love and I'm as much a Daddy's girl as I am my mom's best friend), I think I just thought I'd also have a girl. Like, I built up this pile of life experience and advice from my split 2nd/3rd wave feminist mom (who continues to evolve and helps run One LA) (One LA-IAF is affiliated with the Industrial Areas Foundation (IAF), the oldest and largest national organizing and leadership development network in the United States, and the West / Southwest IAF) and now I need to figure out how my amazing boys need to hear it.
And also what specific messages THEY will need for themselves. Thanks.
posted by atomicstone at 12:40 PM on August 22, 2022 [2 favorites]
And also what specific messages THEY will need for themselves. Thanks.
posted by atomicstone at 12:40 PM on August 22, 2022 [2 favorites]
And to piggyback on MiraK, we raised our son in much the same way she appears to be raising hers, and at 25, mine is still just as vulnerable and sweet and responsible as he was when he was a kid. My daughter's (22) boyfriend (23) is just as amazing. It is absolutely possible to raise feminist boys in today's world.
posted by cooker girl at 12:51 PM on August 22, 2022 [8 favorites]
posted by cooker girl at 12:51 PM on August 22, 2022 [8 favorites]
I think back to all the women my age and older I've known who, while pregnant, said they hoped it was a boy because "boys are easier." And it's become increasingly clear that the reason people thought it was easier to raise boys is because it was socially acceptable back then to just opt out of giving them the emotional education they needed.
posted by The Underpants Monster at 12:59 PM on August 22, 2022 [44 favorites]
posted by The Underpants Monster at 12:59 PM on August 22, 2022 [44 favorites]
the reason people thought it was easier to raise boys is because it was socially acceptable back then to just opt out of giving them the emotional education they needed.
In addition to that (and tangled up in complicated ways with that) is that it's a lot of work to convince a child to be happy about being prepared for subordinate life roles.
posted by clawsoon at 1:47 PM on August 22, 2022 [11 favorites]
In addition to that (and tangled up in complicated ways with that) is that it's a lot of work to convince a child to be happy about being prepared for subordinate life roles.
posted by clawsoon at 1:47 PM on August 22, 2022 [11 favorites]
> all the women my age and older I've known who, while pregnant, said they hoped it was a boy because "boys are easier."
> I built up this pile of life experience and advice from my split 2nd/3rd wave feminist mom
> now I [their mom] need to figure out how my amazing boys need to hear it
It's moms all the way down, isn't it?? We're the only ones who are even trying to do this work, it seems like. Certainly we are the only ones being expected to do it, and being faulted for doing it wrong.
What does it take for dads to step up and follow our lead and do their fair share of parenting our boys properly? That's another path I'm traveling. It turns out that what's true for boys and male children is also true for grown men. If we need our male co-parents to step up, it becomes our job to patiently coax them into it, because shaming and anger and bitterness and blame will never make any dad be a better dad.
My ex husband is a great dad in many ways: he has always done 50% of the work, he's involved and organized and reliable, and he can be silly, fun, playful with the kids. But he's total shit at handling emotions healthily, both in himself and in our kids. He is AWFUL at protecting our son's soft side, because he hasn't protected his own soft side, nobody ever did it for him. And so when my ex husband has ~emotions~ about something the kids did, he just vomits it all over the kids and then yells at the kids to stop crying or protesting and this pattern has been a nightmare to navigate. So exhausting.
I have all the reason in the world to be angry and bitter towards my ex husband for personal reasons, but I gotta set that aside. I frequently have reason to be angry with him for the way he parents our kids but I gotta set that aside too because if I express anger, it's a great way to break our co-parenting rapport and nothing changes from his end. It's total bullshit, but it's got to be done, and the bottomline is actually that I'm lucky I have a co-parent on whom my coaching works.
This would all be a thousand times easier if my ex would just get some fucking therapy, because then it would be the therapist's job to gently heal him and coach him into handling his emotions better. So yeah one of the things I appreciate about this article is that it does tell men to go to therapy. MEN!! PLEASE GO TO THERAPY!! I know that sounds like a bougie thing to say, but it's not, it's like saying please go see a doctor. Y'all really need therapy. What therapy does is help you become emotionally self-aware and emotionally literate. It gives you the emotional resources to deal with your own feelings as well as other people's feelings, which is a primary requirement for being a decent father. If men get therapy, our boys will have better dads and maybe they have a chance of growing up without a skills gap.
posted by MiraK at 2:13 PM on August 22, 2022 [10 favorites]
> I built up this pile of life experience and advice from my split 2nd/3rd wave feminist mom
> now I [their mom] need to figure out how my amazing boys need to hear it
It's moms all the way down, isn't it?? We're the only ones who are even trying to do this work, it seems like. Certainly we are the only ones being expected to do it, and being faulted for doing it wrong.
What does it take for dads to step up and follow our lead and do their fair share of parenting our boys properly? That's another path I'm traveling. It turns out that what's true for boys and male children is also true for grown men. If we need our male co-parents to step up, it becomes our job to patiently coax them into it, because shaming and anger and bitterness and blame will never make any dad be a better dad.
My ex husband is a great dad in many ways: he has always done 50% of the work, he's involved and organized and reliable, and he can be silly, fun, playful with the kids. But he's total shit at handling emotions healthily, both in himself and in our kids. He is AWFUL at protecting our son's soft side, because he hasn't protected his own soft side, nobody ever did it for him. And so when my ex husband has ~emotions~ about something the kids did, he just vomits it all over the kids and then yells at the kids to stop crying or protesting and this pattern has been a nightmare to navigate. So exhausting.
I have all the reason in the world to be angry and bitter towards my ex husband for personal reasons, but I gotta set that aside. I frequently have reason to be angry with him for the way he parents our kids but I gotta set that aside too because if I express anger, it's a great way to break our co-parenting rapport and nothing changes from his end. It's total bullshit, but it's got to be done, and the bottomline is actually that I'm lucky I have a co-parent on whom my coaching works.
This would all be a thousand times easier if my ex would just get some fucking therapy, because then it would be the therapist's job to gently heal him and coach him into handling his emotions better. So yeah one of the things I appreciate about this article is that it does tell men to go to therapy. MEN!! PLEASE GO TO THERAPY!! I know that sounds like a bougie thing to say, but it's not, it's like saying please go see a doctor. Y'all really need therapy. What therapy does is help you become emotionally self-aware and emotionally literate. It gives you the emotional resources to deal with your own feelings as well as other people's feelings, which is a primary requirement for being a decent father. If men get therapy, our boys will have better dads and maybe they have a chance of growing up without a skills gap.
posted by MiraK at 2:13 PM on August 22, 2022 [10 favorites]
I know a lot of people, women and men, who could use a lot of straight-up re-parenting, and only a tiny sliver of us are ever going to get it. But I wouldn’t despair; I don’t think there’s a single parenting style that unlocks the secret to emotional health. I think, usually, if parents are “good enough” and fairly consistent, most kids will figure it out on their own, one mistake at a time.
posted by ducky l'orange at 2:29 PM on August 22, 2022 [5 favorites]
posted by ducky l'orange at 2:29 PM on August 22, 2022 [5 favorites]
MiraK: It's moms all the way down, isn't it?? We're the only ones who are even trying to do this work, it seems like.
I'm not sure if I'd trust the teaching of high school physics to someone who was taught the earth is flat.
MEN!! PLEASE GO TO THERAPY!!
I've tried a couple of times. It never seemed to go anywhere or do much for me. I'm not sure if that's because I wasn't invested enough in it, or because it's designed for people who are starting from a different base of emotional training than I have, or some combination of the two.
posted by clawsoon at 2:33 PM on August 22, 2022 [4 favorites]
I'm not sure if I'd trust the teaching of high school physics to someone who was taught the earth is flat.
MEN!! PLEASE GO TO THERAPY!!
I've tried a couple of times. It never seemed to go anywhere or do much for me. I'm not sure if that's because I wasn't invested enough in it, or because it's designed for people who are starting from a different base of emotional training than I have, or some combination of the two.
posted by clawsoon at 2:33 PM on August 22, 2022 [4 favorites]
@MiraK, I was assuming that the Dads felt the same way, but I couldn't really speak for them or say that for sure because I only knew the Moms.
posted by The Underpants Monster at 2:35 PM on August 22, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by The Underpants Monster at 2:35 PM on August 22, 2022 [2 favorites]
It's moms all the way down, isn't it?? We're the only ones who are even trying to do this work, it seems like. Certainly we are the only ones being expected to do it, and being faulted for doing it wrong.
Is it really necessary to erase the work done by all the good Dads out there?
And therapy is far from a panacea, I say this as someone in therapy.
posted by mon_petit_ordinateur at 2:37 PM on August 22, 2022 [4 favorites]
Is it really necessary to erase the work done by all the good Dads out there?
And therapy is far from a panacea, I say this as someone in therapy.
posted by mon_petit_ordinateur at 2:37 PM on August 22, 2022 [4 favorites]
> I think, usually, if parents are “good enough” and fairly consistent, most kids will figure it out on their own, one mistake at a time
But the whole problem here is they HAVEN'T figured it out on their own, not for generations! There is something about "oh, don't worry, they will figure it out on their own" that comes across as dismissive to me in a discussion of how much work and deliberation and effort goes into both parenting and co-parenting.
One of the things I'm trying to communicate on this thread is just how much work goes into raising boys. It doesn't happen by magic, you know. It's not elves doing my work for me. Boys don't grow up whole without either their parents or some other parent-like figure working their ass off to make them whole.
And another thing I was trying to communicate is that we are abandoning boys far too often. No, this is not something they should be left alone with. We need to make the extra effort to help them process and deal, in ways that are far above and beyond what society says is good enough. If boys are left to figure it out on their own one mistake at a time, that hurts the boys and other people in their lives immensely. And in the vast majority of cases they never will figure it out, ever.
(On a side note, just because this is a pet peeve: The psychologist who coined the term "good enough mother" wasn't talking about what most people think he was talking about. Most people understand the term "good enough parent" to mean a parent who is overall pretty decent, makes some mistakes but compensates for those mistakes by being loving, reliable, present, etc. But Donald W. Winnicott was talking about something completely different: in infancy, a newborn needs her caregiver to meet her needs perfectly, through mind-reading. If the newborn cries, the caregiver must pick her up and rock her. If the newborn has a wet diaper or a bug bite or a , the caregiver must intuitively or observationally know this and fix the issue without needing the newborn to say so. That, according to Winnicott, is a "perfect mother": one who meets an infant's needs perfectly, without any frustration for the infant or any work from the infant. But by the time a baby is, say, 6 or 9 months old, she has greater skill and capacity to bridge gaps in communication, and it becomes crucial that the baby's caregiver must deliberately provide an environment of optimal frustration so that the baby is forced to use her skills to get parental help. No longer must the caregiver jump to fulfill baby's needs. It is a hallmark of effective parenting for the caregiver to wait for the baby to come crawling and yank at the parent's trousers before picking the baby up. Winnicott described this as a "good enough mother": where the mother deliberately causes the baby to become optimally frustrated, using her judgment to determine how much that is. So it's a very different concept from the popular understanding of the term "good enough" parent.)
> Is it really necessary to erase the work done by all the good Dads out there?
Are they doing it? Let's hear about it! I was noting how nobody had even mentioned dads as being expected to do this work, and all four mentions of people in the context of parenting boys was of moms. I'm not the one erasing dads. If dads want to step up and speak up, please please do.
posted by MiraK at 2:52 PM on August 22, 2022 [20 favorites]
But the whole problem here is they HAVEN'T figured it out on their own, not for generations! There is something about "oh, don't worry, they will figure it out on their own" that comes across as dismissive to me in a discussion of how much work and deliberation and effort goes into both parenting and co-parenting.
One of the things I'm trying to communicate on this thread is just how much work goes into raising boys. It doesn't happen by magic, you know. It's not elves doing my work for me. Boys don't grow up whole without either their parents or some other parent-like figure working their ass off to make them whole.
And another thing I was trying to communicate is that we are abandoning boys far too often. No, this is not something they should be left alone with. We need to make the extra effort to help them process and deal, in ways that are far above and beyond what society says is good enough. If boys are left to figure it out on their own one mistake at a time, that hurts the boys and other people in their lives immensely. And in the vast majority of cases they never will figure it out, ever.
(On a side note, just because this is a pet peeve: The psychologist who coined the term "good enough mother" wasn't talking about what most people think he was talking about. Most people understand the term "good enough parent" to mean a parent who is overall pretty decent, makes some mistakes but compensates for those mistakes by being loving, reliable, present, etc. But Donald W. Winnicott was talking about something completely different: in infancy, a newborn needs her caregiver to meet her needs perfectly, through mind-reading. If the newborn cries, the caregiver must pick her up and rock her. If the newborn has a wet diaper or a bug bite or a , the caregiver must intuitively or observationally know this and fix the issue without needing the newborn to say so. That, according to Winnicott, is a "perfect mother": one who meets an infant's needs perfectly, without any frustration for the infant or any work from the infant. But by the time a baby is, say, 6 or 9 months old, she has greater skill and capacity to bridge gaps in communication, and it becomes crucial that the baby's caregiver must deliberately provide an environment of optimal frustration so that the baby is forced to use her skills to get parental help. No longer must the caregiver jump to fulfill baby's needs. It is a hallmark of effective parenting for the caregiver to wait for the baby to come crawling and yank at the parent's trousers before picking the baby up. Winnicott described this as a "good enough mother": where the mother deliberately causes the baby to become optimally frustrated, using her judgment to determine how much that is. So it's a very different concept from the popular understanding of the term "good enough" parent.)
> Is it really necessary to erase the work done by all the good Dads out there?
Are they doing it? Let's hear about it! I was noting how nobody had even mentioned dads as being expected to do this work, and all four mentions of people in the context of parenting boys was of moms. I'm not the one erasing dads. If dads want to step up and speak up, please please do.
posted by MiraK at 2:52 PM on August 22, 2022 [20 favorites]
There's a huge shortage of therapists right now, partially due to the massive mental breakdown that everyone had over the past couple of years. But even before that, therapy was hard to find, and good therapy even harder.
So sending a large percentage of men to therapy simply isn't going to happen. The resources aren't available. Someone else is going to have to teach these men how to be in relationships. And I'm guessing there won't be many volunteers.
If I was in a stock-market-betting mood, I'd be putting my money into any company that caters to single people. I'm thinking that's going to be a booming market segment pretty soon here.
posted by MrVisible at 2:57 PM on August 22, 2022 [3 favorites]
So sending a large percentage of men to therapy simply isn't going to happen. The resources aren't available. Someone else is going to have to teach these men how to be in relationships. And I'm guessing there won't be many volunteers.
If I was in a stock-market-betting mood, I'd be putting my money into any company that caters to single people. I'm thinking that's going to be a booming market segment pretty soon here.
posted by MrVisible at 2:57 PM on August 22, 2022 [3 favorites]
I don't feel like "go to therapy" is helpful general advice. I've been trying to do that lately and it's very expensive and challenging to find one, and that's no guarantee they'll be a good fit. In an ideal world everyone could access therapy but that's not very realistic. I wish articles and internet commenters like this would also recommend apps, tools, and books for people receptive to the message who want to work on themselves but can't access therapy.
posted by Emily's Fist at 3:11 PM on August 22, 2022 [5 favorites]
posted by Emily's Fist at 3:11 PM on August 22, 2022 [5 favorites]
> therapy is far from a panacea
> sending a large percentage of men to therapy simply isn't going to happen
> I'm not sure if I'd trust the teaching of high school physics to someone who was taught the earth is flat.
So what would you suggest as alternatives? I don't think we can blame and shame out way out of this. You all need solutions that work for you. What might those be?
posted by MiraK at 3:13 PM on August 22, 2022 [3 favorites]
> sending a large percentage of men to therapy simply isn't going to happen
> I'm not sure if I'd trust the teaching of high school physics to someone who was taught the earth is flat.
So what would you suggest as alternatives? I don't think we can blame and shame out way out of this. You all need solutions that work for you. What might those be?
posted by MiraK at 3:13 PM on August 22, 2022 [3 favorites]
Okay, here's my solution:
Normalize single living.
When your options as a single person are a) get married or b) become a crazy cat lady/creepy old weirdo, you'll probably try to get married whether you actually want to or not. Stop treating being single as the failure mode for married, and start treating it as a responsible decision by people who don't want to be in relationships.
The article states that "It means seeing intimacy, romance, and emotional connection as worthy of your time and effort." What kind of therapy suggests changing your values like that? If you don't value intimacy, romance and emotional connection, is that something you can even change? Is it something you should change? Or maybe people who don't value those things should focus on other stuff?
I mean, if I don't like sports no-one is telling me I have to learn all these sports skills so I can understand the games better; I just don't participate, and it's fine. But if I say I'm not interested in relationships, there's something wrong with me and suddenly I need therapy.
If you don't want people half-heartedly participating in relationships they're unprepared for and who don't have the interest to pick up the skills necessary to make the relationship work, then stop acting as if being in a relationship is a requirement for a happy life. Show people more examples of happy, single people living good lives, and stop mocking those of us who've figured out we're happier alone.
Relationships aren't for everyone. Most people are single. Most people die single. Let's stop making that seem weird.
posted by MrVisible at 3:30 PM on August 22, 2022 [41 favorites]
Normalize single living.
When your options as a single person are a) get married or b) become a crazy cat lady/creepy old weirdo, you'll probably try to get married whether you actually want to or not. Stop treating being single as the failure mode for married, and start treating it as a responsible decision by people who don't want to be in relationships.
The article states that "It means seeing intimacy, romance, and emotional connection as worthy of your time and effort." What kind of therapy suggests changing your values like that? If you don't value intimacy, romance and emotional connection, is that something you can even change? Is it something you should change? Or maybe people who don't value those things should focus on other stuff?
I mean, if I don't like sports no-one is telling me I have to learn all these sports skills so I can understand the games better; I just don't participate, and it's fine. But if I say I'm not interested in relationships, there's something wrong with me and suddenly I need therapy.
If you don't want people half-heartedly participating in relationships they're unprepared for and who don't have the interest to pick up the skills necessary to make the relationship work, then stop acting as if being in a relationship is a requirement for a happy life. Show people more examples of happy, single people living good lives, and stop mocking those of us who've figured out we're happier alone.
Relationships aren't for everyone. Most people are single. Most people die single. Let's stop making that seem weird.
posted by MrVisible at 3:30 PM on August 22, 2022 [41 favorites]
If dads want to step up and speak up, please please do.
Personally, I don't feel safe talking about fatherhood on Metafilter, so I remain guarded in threads like this. But if you insist...
I try to impress upon my boy, that above anything else, all I want is that he is kind. I think it's working out.
posted by Alex404 at 3:33 PM on August 22, 2022 [27 favorites]
Personally, I don't feel safe talking about fatherhood on Metafilter, so I remain guarded in threads like this. But if you insist...
I try to impress upon my boy, that above anything else, all I want is that he is kind. I think it's working out.
posted by Alex404 at 3:33 PM on August 22, 2022 [27 favorites]
Father here too, to a girl currently, with twin girl/boy siblings on the way. I was actually super worried about having a boy, for the reason of having to endlessly push back against the “boys will be boys” low expectations, as well as worry about a father/son relationship carrying extra fraughtness for various family reasons. I’ve talked it through with my therapist and partner a bunch and now I’m excited at the opportunity to be part of bringing a decent man into the world. I think for us it may be made easier with a twin and older sister in the mix, but also all the young boys of families we know are just awesome little humans.
But anyway, I can’t quite count myself yet as someone who’s doing good son-raising work, but I see them out there every week.
posted by Jon Mitchell at 3:45 PM on August 22, 2022 [12 favorites]
But anyway, I can’t quite count myself yet as someone who’s doing good son-raising work, but I see them out there every week.
posted by Jon Mitchell at 3:45 PM on August 22, 2022 [12 favorites]
derrinyet: "This just replicates the bad logic of the original post and the MRA thread. Nobody "deserves" anybody and the whole idea that you get a relationship because of what a good communicator you are or as a prize for Working On Yourself or whatever is not fundamentally any different from incel whining about how you have to be six feet tall."
Language is a funny, slippery thing, and although "don't deserve" feels like it should be the exact opposite of "deserve," I think most of the time, when discussing relationships, it's not used that way. At least, I don't use it that way, and I suspect the same is true for many other people.
Like, I have a friend who is wonderful. She's super nice, and funny, and positive, and honest. She's single because she hasn't found someone who clicks for her. If she finds someone who clicks for her, I hope that the person she finds is also wonderful, super nice, and funny, and positive, and honest. If he isn't, I might say that he doesn't "deserve" her, but at no point am I actually thinking that this means that his counterpart, a hypothetical dude that was wonderful, super nice, funny, positive, and honest would have had some sort of cosmic right to my friend. I'm not saying that if she were to decide not to date this hypothetical good counterpart that she would somehow be depriving him of something he's "supposed" to get.
"You don't deserve her" doesn't mean "you don't have a right to her, but there is someone out there with a right to her, regardless of what she thinks," it's just a concise turn of phrase that means "you have some sort of negative traits (you're smelly or misogynistic or dishonest or belittling or manipulative) and she has lots of positive traits and few negative traits, and therefore I feel bad for her that she's dating you instead of someone as wonderful as her". It's just way more concise.
posted by Bugbread at 3:58 PM on August 22, 2022 [7 favorites]
Language is a funny, slippery thing, and although "don't deserve" feels like it should be the exact opposite of "deserve," I think most of the time, when discussing relationships, it's not used that way. At least, I don't use it that way, and I suspect the same is true for many other people.
Like, I have a friend who is wonderful. She's super nice, and funny, and positive, and honest. She's single because she hasn't found someone who clicks for her. If she finds someone who clicks for her, I hope that the person she finds is also wonderful, super nice, and funny, and positive, and honest. If he isn't, I might say that he doesn't "deserve" her, but at no point am I actually thinking that this means that his counterpart, a hypothetical dude that was wonderful, super nice, funny, positive, and honest would have had some sort of cosmic right to my friend. I'm not saying that if she were to decide not to date this hypothetical good counterpart that she would somehow be depriving him of something he's "supposed" to get.
"You don't deserve her" doesn't mean "you don't have a right to her, but there is someone out there with a right to her, regardless of what she thinks," it's just a concise turn of phrase that means "you have some sort of negative traits (you're smelly or misogynistic or dishonest or belittling or manipulative) and she has lots of positive traits and few negative traits, and therefore I feel bad for her that she's dating you instead of someone as wonderful as her". It's just way more concise.
posted by Bugbread at 3:58 PM on August 22, 2022 [7 favorites]
We have five daughters and four sons. One blessing of the mixture is that the other side, such as it is, is demythologized. I didn't grow up with sisters; girls seemed to come from another planet. My wife only grew up with a sister, so boys seemed equally inscrutable. So where have we have, 20-some-odd years in?
This is a place where it's safe to be bold, gross, vulnerable, or everything all at once. If the boys want to cry at the sad part of a movie, that's OK because they've seen their father do it. Much of it, I hope, flows from the way we, as a married couple, treat each other, all of the time, behavior we generally learned from our own parents.
A lot is informed by our faith, yes, but probably not in ways that are likely to leap to people's minds once they've passed the 'omg 9 kids lol' moment.
posted by jquinby at 4:12 PM on August 22, 2022 [10 favorites]
This is a place where it's safe to be bold, gross, vulnerable, or everything all at once. If the boys want to cry at the sad part of a movie, that's OK because they've seen their father do it. Much of it, I hope, flows from the way we, as a married couple, treat each other, all of the time, behavior we generally learned from our own parents.
A lot is informed by our faith, yes, but probably not in ways that are likely to leap to people's minds once they've passed the 'omg 9 kids lol' moment.
posted by jquinby at 4:12 PM on August 22, 2022 [10 favorites]
Piggybacking on the above about "deserve", I'm thinking about how it's actually used in reference to relationships, and it's pretty idiosyncratic. "Don't deserve" is (like I mentioned above) almost always used when talking about someone with lots of positive character traits dating someone lacking positive character traits, and saying that they shouldn't be going out. "Deserve" (as opposed to "don't deserve") is used in two ways: when talking about someone who is dating someone terrible and saying that they should date someone better ("He beats you and he cheats on you and he's always drunk. You deserve someone who will treat you right!"), or when talking about two terrible people who are dating and you're happy that such awful people are making each other miserable. But you never, for example, hear "deserve" used with a specific person ("You deserve to be with Bob"), and when talking about someone good who is in a good relationship, you never hear it used when affirming that. You might hear "You and Jane are a good couple" or "You and Jim are perfect for each other", but not "You and Jeanne deserve each other". That last one just sounds like you're saying they're both assholes.
posted by Bugbread at 4:18 PM on August 22, 2022 [3 favorites]
posted by Bugbread at 4:18 PM on August 22, 2022 [3 favorites]
sending a large percentage of men to therapy simply isn't going to happen. The resources aren't available. Someone else is going to have to teach these men how to be in relationships
Cautiously thinking of precedents… study circles, consciousness raisings, men’s sheds, AA? What’s the sketch of the goal that men can help each other fill in?
posted by clew at 4:34 PM on August 22, 2022 [5 favorites]
Cautiously thinking of precedents… study circles, consciousness raisings, men’s sheds, AA? What’s the sketch of the goal that men can help each other fill in?
posted by clew at 4:34 PM on August 22, 2022 [5 favorites]
The article states that "It means seeing intimacy, romance, and emotional connection as worthy of your time and effort." What kind of therapy suggests changing your values like that? If you don't value intimacy, romance and emotional connection, is that something you can even change? Is it something you should change? Or maybe people who don't value those things should focus on other stuff?
Ehhh I don't think they're talking about someone for whom "intimacy, romance, and emotional connection" aren't WANTED. They're talking about someone who wants these things but considers doing the work to obtain and maintain them either a) beneath them or b) completely impenetrable and mysterious to them.
Yes, obviously, if someone is like "I don't really care to have an emotionally or physically intimate relationship, I don't care to have a romance" that person should not be pathologized (and unfortunately they often are). But quite a lot of people, and this article posits they are largely dudes, claim to very much want a romantic relationship, while simultaneously viewing that relationship as a threat to their masculine identity on some level, to the detriment of all.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 4:39 PM on August 22, 2022 [6 favorites]
Ehhh I don't think they're talking about someone for whom "intimacy, romance, and emotional connection" aren't WANTED. They're talking about someone who wants these things but considers doing the work to obtain and maintain them either a) beneath them or b) completely impenetrable and mysterious to them.
Yes, obviously, if someone is like "I don't really care to have an emotionally or physically intimate relationship, I don't care to have a romance" that person should not be pathologized (and unfortunately they often are). But quite a lot of people, and this article posits they are largely dudes, claim to very much want a romantic relationship, while simultaneously viewing that relationship as a threat to their masculine identity on some level, to the detriment of all.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 4:39 PM on August 22, 2022 [6 favorites]
If dads want to step up and speak up, please please do.
Like Alex404, I'm not really comfortable discussing fatherhood on Metafilter. It's an amazing place for many things, but not that. I'm speaking only because if I don't, well then that's evidence that fathers systemically aren't pulling their weight in raising their sons.
So, let me tell you first about my father. There wasn't a moment in my life where I doubted that he loved me and thought I was uniquely wonderful. He was a genius at delivering a compliment. I've been trying to emulate that skill for several decades now. He also was deeply enthusiastic about my efforts and accomplishments. People loved talking to him, not because he was charismatic or fascinating, but because he made people, including me, feel valued and "on the right track" in a deeply personal way.
So, I was the beneficiary of the opposite of generational trauma. I received an intergenerational transfer of emotional wealth from father to son.
I am the father of two young adults, a daughter and a son. Through her teen years, my daughter and I went on hundreds and hundreds of long walks. Mostly what I did was listen, try not to judge, and deliver ten kindnesses for each word of advice. In short, mostly I didn't talk.
My son did not want that level of sharing. So we spent a lot of time together with both of us not talking. The not talking part was important and healing. For him, I believe "not talking" meant "not judging." Without getting into details, the Covid isolation was very rough on my son. At one point, he needed to make an important decision regarding his own mental health. I was able to help him make that decision specifically because I talked so little and judged so little (at least about the details of his life). Again, without getting into detail, my son has had a few very healthy romantic relationships with young women, and had the maturity and fortitude to exit an unhealthy one.
Bud Powell was a jazz pianist who played clouds of notes. Count Basie was a jazz pianist who played a chord here and there, while he let his band do the rest. Both made beautiful if different music, and Basie was working hard by not playing what didn't need to be played. Sometimes silence is stepping up, even if it doesn't look like it.
posted by ferdydurke at 4:48 PM on August 22, 2022 [41 favorites]
Like Alex404, I'm not really comfortable discussing fatherhood on Metafilter. It's an amazing place for many things, but not that. I'm speaking only because if I don't, well then that's evidence that fathers systemically aren't pulling their weight in raising their sons.
So, let me tell you first about my father. There wasn't a moment in my life where I doubted that he loved me and thought I was uniquely wonderful. He was a genius at delivering a compliment. I've been trying to emulate that skill for several decades now. He also was deeply enthusiastic about my efforts and accomplishments. People loved talking to him, not because he was charismatic or fascinating, but because he made people, including me, feel valued and "on the right track" in a deeply personal way.
So, I was the beneficiary of the opposite of generational trauma. I received an intergenerational transfer of emotional wealth from father to son.
I am the father of two young adults, a daughter and a son. Through her teen years, my daughter and I went on hundreds and hundreds of long walks. Mostly what I did was listen, try not to judge, and deliver ten kindnesses for each word of advice. In short, mostly I didn't talk.
My son did not want that level of sharing. So we spent a lot of time together with both of us not talking. The not talking part was important and healing. For him, I believe "not talking" meant "not judging." Without getting into details, the Covid isolation was very rough on my son. At one point, he needed to make an important decision regarding his own mental health. I was able to help him make that decision specifically because I talked so little and judged so little (at least about the details of his life). Again, without getting into detail, my son has had a few very healthy romantic relationships with young women, and had the maturity and fortitude to exit an unhealthy one.
Bud Powell was a jazz pianist who played clouds of notes. Count Basie was a jazz pianist who played a chord here and there, while he let his band do the rest. Both made beautiful if different music, and Basie was working hard by not playing what didn't need to be played. Sometimes silence is stepping up, even if it doesn't look like it.
posted by ferdydurke at 4:48 PM on August 22, 2022 [41 favorites]
To me, it seems that the amount of effort you're willing to put into something is a direct indication of how much you value it. If you can't be bothered to read a single book on relationships, or talk to anyone about them, or do anything to increase your relationship skills, then you really don't value relationships very much, do you?
I mean, I want a swimming pool. Would I be willing to put in the time, money and effort it would take to get one? Nope. A pool would be nice, but I can't be bothered.
Relationship knowledge isn't particularly difficult to obtain. If there's someone who says they want a relationship, but aren't willing to do anything to get that relationship, then they really don't value relationships very highly.
And that's okay. As long as they don't get into relationships, they'll be fine.
So there are two possible messages for these people, who want relationships but don't particularly value them. Either start wanting relationships more, or come to terms with what you really value in your life.
Which seems healthier?
posted by MrVisible at 4:55 PM on August 22, 2022 [1 favorite]
I mean, I want a swimming pool. Would I be willing to put in the time, money and effort it would take to get one? Nope. A pool would be nice, but I can't be bothered.
Relationship knowledge isn't particularly difficult to obtain. If there's someone who says they want a relationship, but aren't willing to do anything to get that relationship, then they really don't value relationships very highly.
And that's okay. As long as they don't get into relationships, they'll be fine.
So there are two possible messages for these people, who want relationships but don't particularly value them. Either start wanting relationships more, or come to terms with what you really value in your life.
Which seems healthier?
posted by MrVisible at 4:55 PM on August 22, 2022 [1 favorite]
MiraK: "I'm not the one erasing dads. If dads want to step up and speak up, please please do."
I don't feel comfortable discussing things like this on MeFi because I know of the tendency of some folks to pick things apart and take the least charitable takes, so I don't want to give any specifics for anyone to seize on, but as a dad I'm trying to raise my sons to see potential romantic partners first and foremost as people and relationships as non-transactional and to be communicative and honest.
posted by Bugbread at 4:58 PM on August 22, 2022 [22 favorites]
I don't feel comfortable discussing things like this on MeFi because I know of the tendency of some folks to pick things apart and take the least charitable takes, so I don't want to give any specifics for anyone to seize on, but as a dad I'm trying to raise my sons to see potential romantic partners first and foremost as people and relationships as non-transactional and to be communicative and honest.
posted by Bugbread at 4:58 PM on August 22, 2022 [22 favorites]
Relationship knowledge isn't particularly difficult to obtain. If there's someone who says they want a relationship, but aren't willing to do anything to get that relationship, then they really don't value relationships very highly.
Whooooooooooa though, this is actually not how humans work, and why specifically this article is coming from PSYCHOLOGY TODAY, my friend. Human brains do a lot of dumb bullshit that hurts the humans in which they live, and makes those human lives poorer. And human societies do a lot of cruel, awful bullshit to the humans who live in them, making those humans' lives poorer in other ways.
It is important to re-evaluate the prioritizing of romantic relationships in society! Very much so. But also actually, a whole fuckin lot of people do like other people, and they want to bang them, and also talk to them, and hang out with them, and who also have been taught to hate and fear the exact same people they want to bang and talk to and hang out with!
That's a head trip, for real. And it's not surprising that someone who has been punched for crying and told "relationship books are for [INSERT TERRIBLE SLUR WORDS HERE]", surprise surprise, isn't super in touch with their emotions and hasn't gone and read a bunch of relationship books.
WHICH SPEAKING OF
Relationship knowledge isn't particularly difficult to obtain.
No, it's true, if you want a bunch of retrograde d-level bullshit churned out by snake oil hucksters selling their Programs, relationship knowledge is abundant. Abundant and low-value, to pick up a term that often circulates in the stellar land of "omnipresent relationship advice".
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 5:04 PM on August 22, 2022 [12 favorites]
Whooooooooooa though, this is actually not how humans work, and why specifically this article is coming from PSYCHOLOGY TODAY, my friend. Human brains do a lot of dumb bullshit that hurts the humans in which they live, and makes those human lives poorer. And human societies do a lot of cruel, awful bullshit to the humans who live in them, making those humans' lives poorer in other ways.
It is important to re-evaluate the prioritizing of romantic relationships in society! Very much so. But also actually, a whole fuckin lot of people do like other people, and they want to bang them, and also talk to them, and hang out with them, and who also have been taught to hate and fear the exact same people they want to bang and talk to and hang out with!
That's a head trip, for real. And it's not surprising that someone who has been punched for crying and told "relationship books are for [INSERT TERRIBLE SLUR WORDS HERE]", surprise surprise, isn't super in touch with their emotions and hasn't gone and read a bunch of relationship books.
WHICH SPEAKING OF
Relationship knowledge isn't particularly difficult to obtain.
No, it's true, if you want a bunch of retrograde d-level bullshit churned out by snake oil hucksters selling their Programs, relationship knowledge is abundant. Abundant and low-value, to pick up a term that often circulates in the stellar land of "omnipresent relationship advice".
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 5:04 PM on August 22, 2022 [12 favorites]
If dads want to step up and speak up, please please do.
Much like Alex404, I don't feel safe discussing fatherhood on Metafilter as historically I have had my posts and comments (I used to be known by another ID before buttoning from a similar thread) interpreted in bad faith.
It is also not my duty to educate you, a simple google search will turn up many resources and groups of men trying to be better more emotionally open fathers.
posted by mon_petit_ordinateur at 5:09 PM on August 22, 2022 [9 favorites]
Much like Alex404, I don't feel safe discussing fatherhood on Metafilter as historically I have had my posts and comments (I used to be known by another ID before buttoning from a similar thread) interpreted in bad faith.
It is also not my duty to educate you, a simple google search will turn up many resources and groups of men trying to be better more emotionally open fathers.
posted by mon_petit_ordinateur at 5:09 PM on August 22, 2022 [9 favorites]
(Note that none of my comment should be construed as excusing men from doing the work required to be equal and fulfilling partners in a romantic relationship. I just think that given I live in a nation that recently decided I'm not even fully a human being anymore, maybe just maaaaaaaaaaaaybe we're not in a place as a civilization where we can assume everyone's choices are a perfect actuation of their values.)
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 5:40 PM on August 22, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 5:40 PM on August 22, 2022 [1 favorite]
We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese: "given I live in a nation that recently decided I'm not even fully a human being anymore"
I'm not connecting some dots here. What country do you live in, and what decision was made that you're not a full human being?
posted by Bugbread at 5:41 PM on August 22, 2022
I'm not connecting some dots here. What country do you live in, and what decision was made that you're not a full human being?
posted by Bugbread at 5:41 PM on August 22, 2022
I'm cautious about commenting on topisc as big as this one, since they lend themselves to generalization, which is often as dangerous as it is irresistible.
That said, it seems to me that a large part of this is coming from the fact that the increasing social and economic power of women is making us more likely--rightly or wrongly--to externalize issues. The flip side is that men must come to terms with the idea of controlling what they can, ie themselves and their own behaviour, and are beginning to internalize things a bit more. These shifts of self-awareness are what profound social change looks like at ground level, and while it's good for the group in the long run, it can be pretty hard on individuals.
Although I appreciated the article, it's too bad the author didn't go beyond romance to talk about the benefits of relationship skills for all parts of life, including work. Although work in this area certainly does not guarantee a great connection with the partner of your dreams, it has all kinds of other positive payoffs. Recognizing that might make some people--maybe even some of the ones at that Reddit link-- feel a little less like they're being punished.
posted by rpfields at 6:02 PM on August 22, 2022
That said, it seems to me that a large part of this is coming from the fact that the increasing social and economic power of women is making us more likely--rightly or wrongly--to externalize issues. The flip side is that men must come to terms with the idea of controlling what they can, ie themselves and their own behaviour, and are beginning to internalize things a bit more. These shifts of self-awareness are what profound social change looks like at ground level, and while it's good for the group in the long run, it can be pretty hard on individuals.
Although I appreciated the article, it's too bad the author didn't go beyond romance to talk about the benefits of relationship skills for all parts of life, including work. Although work in this area certainly does not guarantee a great connection with the partner of your dreams, it has all kinds of other positive payoffs. Recognizing that might make some people--maybe even some of the ones at that Reddit link-- feel a little less like they're being punished.
posted by rpfields at 6:02 PM on August 22, 2022
If you can't be bothered to read a single book on relationships, or talk to anyone about them, or do anything to increase your relationship skills, then you really don't value relationships very much, do you?
Here's the problem with this though - there are guys who think that "yes, I should put some effort into increasing my relationship skills by reading a book or something", and they go out and get a book on how to be a pickup artist. Now what?
I'm not connecting some dots here. What country do you live in, and what decision was made that you're not a full human being?
You're aware of a recent decision in the United States Supreme Court about abortion access?
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 7:22 PM on August 22, 2022 [8 favorites]
Here's the problem with this though - there are guys who think that "yes, I should put some effort into increasing my relationship skills by reading a book or something", and they go out and get a book on how to be a pickup artist. Now what?
I'm not connecting some dots here. What country do you live in, and what decision was made that you're not a full human being?
You're aware of a recent decision in the United States Supreme Court about abortion access?
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 7:22 PM on August 22, 2022 [8 favorites]
Okay, so a lot of dads don't feel safe talking about fatherhood on MeFi - I'm curious, do you all have anywhere that you do talk about fatherhood with peers? I hope there are spaces that dads have built for themselves the way we have mommy bloggers and moms' groups. Those trashy, messy, drama-filled forums basically saved my life when I was a new mom, lol. Dads need such a tribe too, and I hope they have it.
One of the comments above suggested that a solution for some men would be to normalize being single, and if some men aren't interested in relationships then just let them be without trying to fix it. I thought that was a pretty great comment at first, but now on reread I'm wondering whether it is supposed to apply to non-romantic relationships too?
The "skills gap" referred to in the article isn't limited to the realm of romance. Men get trained to avoid intimacy and emotional connection in *all* its forms, though. Even for those who don't want romance and are fine being single, this underlying handicap might well remain. It's not fine that so many men live isolated lives, fraying away from the fabric of society. We all need intimacy and connection, I don't think it can be sidestepped.
posted by MiraK at 7:24 PM on August 22, 2022 [5 favorites]
One of the comments above suggested that a solution for some men would be to normalize being single, and if some men aren't interested in relationships then just let them be without trying to fix it. I thought that was a pretty great comment at first, but now on reread I'm wondering whether it is supposed to apply to non-romantic relationships too?
The "skills gap" referred to in the article isn't limited to the realm of romance. Men get trained to avoid intimacy and emotional connection in *all* its forms, though. Even for those who don't want romance and are fine being single, this underlying handicap might well remain. It's not fine that so many men live isolated lives, fraying away from the fabric of society. We all need intimacy and connection, I don't think it can be sidestepped.
posted by MiraK at 7:24 PM on August 22, 2022 [5 favorites]
EmpressCallipygos: "You're aware of a recent decision in the United States Supreme Court about abortion access?"
Yeah, but the "I'm not a full human being" part threw me. Also, for some reason I thought We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese was a guy, so my mind was going along the lines of trans issues, sexuality issues, etc.
posted by Bugbread at 7:35 PM on August 22, 2022 [1 favorite]
Yeah, but the "I'm not a full human being" part threw me. Also, for some reason I thought We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese was a guy, so my mind was going along the lines of trans issues, sexuality issues, etc.
posted by Bugbread at 7:35 PM on August 22, 2022 [1 favorite]
MiraK: "Okay, so a lot of dads don't feel safe talking about fatherhood on MeFi - I'm curious, do you all have anywhere that you do talk about fatherhood with peers?"
Yep, other dads. Just nothing online. Parenting is one of those areas where there's a really big gulf between online and offline discussion.
posted by Bugbread at 7:49 PM on August 22, 2022 [2 favorites]
Yep, other dads. Just nothing online. Parenting is one of those areas where there's a really big gulf between online and offline discussion.
posted by Bugbread at 7:49 PM on August 22, 2022 [2 favorites]
My absolute favorite response to the article that I've seen:
Attracted to men? Tired of cis men's bullshit? Try Trans Men (TM). Not just emotionally available, we tend to overthink and overshare! We love going to therapy! Choose your own adventure dick size and we can't knock you up, a definite bonus with Roe now toast! Trans Men(TM)!
posted by rmd1023 at 8:38 PM on August 22, 2022 [13 favorites]
Attracted to men? Tired of cis men's bullshit? Try Trans Men (TM). Not just emotionally available, we tend to overthink and overshare! We love going to therapy! Choose your own adventure dick size and we can't knock you up, a definite bonus with Roe now toast! Trans Men(TM)!
posted by rmd1023 at 8:38 PM on August 22, 2022 [13 favorites]
"Why are they all so obsessed with being 6ft tall and rich?"
I am obsessed with these guys who (inevitably) say "What do you bring to the table????" to women. I never met one before I started doing improv (slightly before Covid), and then suddenly they were EVERYWHERE, and they kept informing me totally unsolicited that I didn't "bring anything to the table." NOBODY ASKED THEM, EVER, THEY JUST ANNOUNCED IT. And it was largely because I was over 40 and fat, and obviously trying to steal their money because all women earn less than all men and are trying to steal men's money. They were always shocked to learn I was married 20 years and had three kids. It never occurred to them that MAYBE I was fat at 40 because I had a few kids, or that I had a more advanced degree than they did, or that a man remained married to me after I got fat from giving birth to his three children. I am ceaselessly fascinated by them and their ideas about women. I realize they're a small proportion of men (I'm married to a man!) but it is SUCH A BIZARRE MINDSET. They're always flatly shocked that I have a law degree, or that I earn more than they do, because they literally cannot conceive of women who function independently in the world, or of women who aren't dating them to steal their money. Which seems really sad!
"Instead, the primary problem was the declining real wages of young men"
I have read lots of these studies and this is a very real thing; a lot of the literature talks about how women "domesticate" men, and how men who are unpartnered (/unmarried) tend to violence, extremism, terrorism, etc. (This is literally why married men under 25 get lower car insurance rates! Their wives domesticate them into having fewer accidents!) A major predictor of societal terrorism is single men who are a) unable to establish their own households (because of low wages/scarce housing) and b) unable to acquire wives, because women are too economically independent of men or because too few are available because of female infanticide or polygamy or similar. I was in college when the dominant media narrative was "Japan will take over the US with its manufacturing superiority and we will all be speaking Japanese in 30 years!" (more than a teeny bit racist, no?) but all the political science professors were saying, "The Middle East is having a baby boom and the economics are not supporting that boom and those young men will not be able to support/find wives unless there are major economic changes, and in 10-20 years there will be an explosion of terrorism from groups that tell those disenfranchised men they CAN find meaning in violence." THIS IS ALSO THE TRUMPIST MODEL, and why Trumpism has such appeal in areas with high unemployment. And yes, Biden got more votes than Trump did in areas with high unemployment. But Trump outperformed historical numbers and expectations. The associated domestic terrorism is not surprising, from a political science model; it's utterly predictable.
Whenever the media/academics talk about disenfranchised men, they don't mean "men who can't vote." They mean "Men who can't get married and acquire the social capital of a married man." They rarely break out whether that's because the men are low-quality partners or whether they are suffering from a bad economy or from insufficient single women.
There are a couple-few things you can do with disenfranchised men, if you're a government:
1) Ignore them. Let them be terrorists. Hope they're terrorists against people you hate. Inspire propaganda to that end (like Trumpist propaganda against immigrants, or Bin Laden's propaganda against the US).
2) Enlist them in a war. A war of necessity is better, but a war of choice will serve, as long as you can force young unmarried men to serve. Putin's war in Chechnya was as much about keeping unemployed young men occupied as soldiers as it was about any actual military aims. Any war that involves a compulsory military draft, you should interrogate whether that's geared towards an actual military victory, or towards engaging young men in the economy. For the US, World War II was both -- it was literally salvific for young men who were economic surplus WHILE ALSO being necessary for the war effort.
3) Enlist them in the peace. This is a crazy-modern idea, and only sporadically executed. But Roosevelt's CCC? That was freaking magic. That took all those surplus men (including my grandfather) and removed them from the cities where they were involved in street violence and shipped them to Utah (or whatever) and exhausted them by making them build paths in National Parks. It gave them a purpose, and pride in their country. They were required to send home like 75% of their wage, and the 25% they kept could only be spent on certain things (including cigarettes). My grandfather, like many men in the CCC, was incredibly proud he was sending home money to his parents and sisters. My grandfather 100% understood the US was trying to occupy him to keep him out of trouble -- he got in a lot of fuckin' trouble as a teenager, including burlesque clubs -- but he also was very proud of the work he did, and the way he was able to serve his country in peacetime. (He enlisted in the Navy on December 7, 1941, and served out the war in the Navy, and used his separation pay to buy a farm.)
4) Have a roaring economy and hope for a peaceful cultural revolution. See: Baby Boomers and the 60s.
Anyway, men should do better enough that the social science literature stops referring to them as "domesticated" when they behave like humans in society. Alternatively, women should be wild enough that we require the term "domesticated" to refer to us when we settle down.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 9:15 PM on August 22, 2022 [41 favorites]
I am obsessed with these guys who (inevitably) say "What do you bring to the table????" to women. I never met one before I started doing improv (slightly before Covid), and then suddenly they were EVERYWHERE, and they kept informing me totally unsolicited that I didn't "bring anything to the table." NOBODY ASKED THEM, EVER, THEY JUST ANNOUNCED IT. And it was largely because I was over 40 and fat, and obviously trying to steal their money because all women earn less than all men and are trying to steal men's money. They were always shocked to learn I was married 20 years and had three kids. It never occurred to them that MAYBE I was fat at 40 because I had a few kids, or that I had a more advanced degree than they did, or that a man remained married to me after I got fat from giving birth to his three children. I am ceaselessly fascinated by them and their ideas about women. I realize they're a small proportion of men (I'm married to a man!) but it is SUCH A BIZARRE MINDSET. They're always flatly shocked that I have a law degree, or that I earn more than they do, because they literally cannot conceive of women who function independently in the world, or of women who aren't dating them to steal their money. Which seems really sad!
"Instead, the primary problem was the declining real wages of young men"
I have read lots of these studies and this is a very real thing; a lot of the literature talks about how women "domesticate" men, and how men who are unpartnered (/unmarried) tend to violence, extremism, terrorism, etc. (This is literally why married men under 25 get lower car insurance rates! Their wives domesticate them into having fewer accidents!) A major predictor of societal terrorism is single men who are a) unable to establish their own households (because of low wages/scarce housing) and b) unable to acquire wives, because women are too economically independent of men or because too few are available because of female infanticide or polygamy or similar. I was in college when the dominant media narrative was "Japan will take over the US with its manufacturing superiority and we will all be speaking Japanese in 30 years!" (more than a teeny bit racist, no?) but all the political science professors were saying, "The Middle East is having a baby boom and the economics are not supporting that boom and those young men will not be able to support/find wives unless there are major economic changes, and in 10-20 years there will be an explosion of terrorism from groups that tell those disenfranchised men they CAN find meaning in violence." THIS IS ALSO THE TRUMPIST MODEL, and why Trumpism has such appeal in areas with high unemployment. And yes, Biden got more votes than Trump did in areas with high unemployment. But Trump outperformed historical numbers and expectations. The associated domestic terrorism is not surprising, from a political science model; it's utterly predictable.
Whenever the media/academics talk about disenfranchised men, they don't mean "men who can't vote." They mean "Men who can't get married and acquire the social capital of a married man." They rarely break out whether that's because the men are low-quality partners or whether they are suffering from a bad economy or from insufficient single women.
There are a couple-few things you can do with disenfranchised men, if you're a government:
1) Ignore them. Let them be terrorists. Hope they're terrorists against people you hate. Inspire propaganda to that end (like Trumpist propaganda against immigrants, or Bin Laden's propaganda against the US).
2) Enlist them in a war. A war of necessity is better, but a war of choice will serve, as long as you can force young unmarried men to serve. Putin's war in Chechnya was as much about keeping unemployed young men occupied as soldiers as it was about any actual military aims. Any war that involves a compulsory military draft, you should interrogate whether that's geared towards an actual military victory, or towards engaging young men in the economy. For the US, World War II was both -- it was literally salvific for young men who were economic surplus WHILE ALSO being necessary for the war effort.
3) Enlist them in the peace. This is a crazy-modern idea, and only sporadically executed. But Roosevelt's CCC? That was freaking magic. That took all those surplus men (including my grandfather) and removed them from the cities where they were involved in street violence and shipped them to Utah (or whatever) and exhausted them by making them build paths in National Parks. It gave them a purpose, and pride in their country. They were required to send home like 75% of their wage, and the 25% they kept could only be spent on certain things (including cigarettes). My grandfather, like many men in the CCC, was incredibly proud he was sending home money to his parents and sisters. My grandfather 100% understood the US was trying to occupy him to keep him out of trouble -- he got in a lot of fuckin' trouble as a teenager, including burlesque clubs -- but he also was very proud of the work he did, and the way he was able to serve his country in peacetime. (He enlisted in the Navy on December 7, 1941, and served out the war in the Navy, and used his separation pay to buy a farm.)
4) Have a roaring economy and hope for a peaceful cultural revolution. See: Baby Boomers and the 60s.
Anyway, men should do better enough that the social science literature stops referring to them as "domesticated" when they behave like humans in society. Alternatively, women should be wild enough that we require the term "domesticated" to refer to us when we settle down.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 9:15 PM on August 22, 2022 [41 favorites]
Seems to me that anybody who seeks to establish a long term intimate relationship with another person needs to be aware that their ability to do so rests on the ongoing balance between the extent to which they are useful and the extent to which they are annoying.
That MRA subreddit is chockablock with people who come across as almost entirely annoying.
posted by flabdablet at 1:39 AM on August 23, 2022 [2 favorites]
That MRA subreddit is chockablock with people who come across as almost entirely annoying.
posted by flabdablet at 1:39 AM on August 23, 2022 [2 favorites]
If you ever look at Pick Up Artist material, a lot of it is just bog-standard dating advice, but dressed up in military-style jargon, with communication reframed as dominance.
So a regular dating guide will say something like "To show her you're interested, lightly touch her arm occasionally."
A PUA guide will say something like "To assert dominance over the female, initiate level 1 kino upon upper forelimb."
A regular dating guide might say "Show her that the date is important to you by dressing smartly and being well-groomed".
A PUA guide might say "Peacock your alpha status with smart clothing and good grooming".
The point is that a lot of guys are just oblivious to basic dating advice, or they wouldn't be amazed by this stuff.
But the most important thing in male dating is just to approach a lot of women. One rule of thumb is to approach at least one new woman on a dating site every day.
But I hang out on the stoic subreddit which gets a lot of posts along the lines of "I'm ugly and I can't get a date" from young men. Almost none of them are actively approching women. When you ask it's always something like "a year ago I asked out a girl from math class and she said no, I'm definitely going to die a virgin".
So to be honest I don't think most of these guys actually need anything deep or complicated. They just need to learn a handful of simple rules and to get on with asking girls out.
That's not as easy as it sounds because you have to get used to a lot of rejection.
But I don't see that therapy is the answer to this particular problem. Most male singletons I see don't seem to be getting rejected by women for lack of emotional intelligence, they're too scared of rejection to approach women much at all.
posted by TheophileEscargot at 2:35 AM on August 23, 2022 [4 favorites]
So a regular dating guide will say something like "To show her you're interested, lightly touch her arm occasionally."
A PUA guide will say something like "To assert dominance over the female, initiate level 1 kino upon upper forelimb."
A regular dating guide might say "Show her that the date is important to you by dressing smartly and being well-groomed".
A PUA guide might say "Peacock your alpha status with smart clothing and good grooming".
The point is that a lot of guys are just oblivious to basic dating advice, or they wouldn't be amazed by this stuff.
But the most important thing in male dating is just to approach a lot of women. One rule of thumb is to approach at least one new woman on a dating site every day.
But I hang out on the stoic subreddit which gets a lot of posts along the lines of "I'm ugly and I can't get a date" from young men. Almost none of them are actively approching women. When you ask it's always something like "a year ago I asked out a girl from math class and she said no, I'm definitely going to die a virgin".
So to be honest I don't think most of these guys actually need anything deep or complicated. They just need to learn a handful of simple rules and to get on with asking girls out.
That's not as easy as it sounds because you have to get used to a lot of rejection.
But I don't see that therapy is the answer to this particular problem. Most male singletons I see don't seem to be getting rejected by women for lack of emotional intelligence, they're too scared of rejection to approach women much at all.
posted by TheophileEscargot at 2:35 AM on August 23, 2022 [4 favorites]
Therapy might help to get over that fear, though?
posted by dominik at 3:12 AM on August 23, 2022 [4 favorites]
posted by dominik at 3:12 AM on August 23, 2022 [4 favorites]
So might spending less time participating in online forums so manifestly devoted to maintaining and rationalizing it.
I don't want to hang out with any of the useless gutless whining manbabies on r/MensRights, and can't think of any reason why that would change if I were a woman.
posted by flabdablet at 3:18 AM on August 23, 2022 [5 favorites]
I don't want to hang out with any of the useless gutless whining manbabies on r/MensRights, and can't think of any reason why that would change if I were a woman.
posted by flabdablet at 3:18 AM on August 23, 2022 [5 favorites]
If you ever look at Pick Up Artist material, a lot of it is just bog-standard dating advice, but dressed up in military-style jargon, with communication reframed as dominance.
Pick Up Artist material also recommends something called "negging", where you subtly insult a woman expressly to make her feel a bit insecure so that you can then appease that insecurity by deigning to show her favor anyway.
What bog-standard dating advice is that?
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 3:58 AM on August 23, 2022 [3 favorites]
Pick Up Artist material also recommends something called "negging", where you subtly insult a woman expressly to make her feel a bit insecure so that you can then appease that insecurity by deigning to show her favor anyway.
What bog-standard dating advice is that?
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 3:58 AM on August 23, 2022 [3 favorites]
When talking to ladies I know who've been dating recently, we're more likely to joke that the 'bar's in hell.' It doesn't take much to be an acceptable straight male date. I say this to my own girlfriend when she compliments or thanks me for something regular. I guess this goes to the conceit of a social deficit, just that straight women are not being that picky, certainly not raising their standards. Except maybe in places like r/femaledatingstrategy
posted by es_de_bah at 4:17 AM on August 23, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by es_de_bah at 4:17 AM on August 23, 2022 [2 favorites]
EmpressCallipygos : Pick Up Artist material also recommends something called "negging", where you subtly insult a woman expressly to make her feel a bit insecure so that you can then appease that insecurity by deigning to show her favor anyway. What bog-standard dating advice is that?
The closest would probably be from Ask Mefi (and PUA forum) favourite Intimate Connections, in which CBT therapist David Burns recommends that serious young men lighten up, not be afraid to joke around a bit, and not be so virtuously focused on always saying perfectly true and perfectly inoffensive statements. (I'm paraphrasing what I read many years ago, so I may not have gotten it exactly right, but hopefully I got this gist of it.) As TheophileEscargot says, to get from there to "negging" you just have to transform "joke around a bit" into dominance terms.
posted by clawsoon at 4:32 AM on August 23, 2022 [1 favorite]
The closest would probably be from Ask Mefi (and PUA forum) favourite Intimate Connections, in which CBT therapist David Burns recommends that serious young men lighten up, not be afraid to joke around a bit, and not be so virtuously focused on always saying perfectly true and perfectly inoffensive statements. (I'm paraphrasing what I read many years ago, so I may not have gotten it exactly right, but hopefully I got this gist of it.) As TheophileEscargot says, to get from there to "negging" you just have to transform "joke around a bit" into dominance terms.
posted by clawsoon at 4:32 AM on August 23, 2022 [1 favorite]
Clawsoon - I think there is a vast, vast difference between "joking around a bit" and "deliberately making your conquest insecure in an effort to gain the upper hand".
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 4:37 AM on August 23, 2022 [9 favorites]
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 4:37 AM on August 23, 2022 [9 favorites]
Agreed, EmpressCallipygos, and yet in practise they can sometimes look virtually indistinguishable, since a well-executed neg is supposed to leave a woman thinking the man is entertaining while feeling a moment of insecurity about herself without knowing exactly why. A quick Google brings up these Reddit comments about how it's supposed to work if done properly:
A lot of pickup artistry is about learning how to hide your anger, resentment, and insecurity effectively enough to come across as a normal healthy person who's fun to be around. It turns out that's difficult to do, which is why so many pickup artists are so transparently laughable. It also turns out that pretending to be happy and normal doesn't make you happy and normal, which is why so many pickup artists remain depressed and self-loathing even when they get what they think they want.
Pickup artistry is also a good example of the dangers of getting men to figure out amongst themselves how to improve themselves and be better people.
posted by clawsoon at 5:02 AM on August 23, 2022 [4 favorites]
Can’t say my “negs” have ever gone poorly because it’s simply well-timed playful teasing, not mean-spirited or awkwardThe challenge for the pickup artist is to successfully hide their mean-spirited intent so that their dominance aim is hidden and it all comes across as playful teasing.
It really should just be renamed to teasing. I do it all the time and it works on guys and girls alike.
A lot of pickup artistry is about learning how to hide your anger, resentment, and insecurity effectively enough to come across as a normal healthy person who's fun to be around. It turns out that's difficult to do, which is why so many pickup artists are so transparently laughable. It also turns out that pretending to be happy and normal doesn't make you happy and normal, which is why so many pickup artists remain depressed and self-loathing even when they get what they think they want.
Pickup artistry is also a good example of the dangers of getting men to figure out amongst themselves how to improve themselves and be better people.
posted by clawsoon at 5:02 AM on August 23, 2022 [4 favorites]
TheophileEscargot: "a lot of it is just bog-standard dating advice"
EmpressCallipygos: "Pick Up Artist material also recommends something called "negging"...
What bog-standard dating advice is that?"
I interpreted their comment a bit differently than clawsoon: I think the operative word (phrase?) is "a lot" (as opposed to "all").
I've never really delved into the PUA stuff, so all I know is the stuff everybody knows: negging and other asshole stuff + peacocking and other silly stuff. It wouldn't surprise me if it turned out that I only know the terrible and silly stuff because it's terrible and silly. If some PUA guru's advice is "1) Maintain eye contact, but don't stare. 2) Ask the person questions about themselves. 3) Meet them in a public place where they feel safe. 4) Tell them that they're ugly and they should be happy to be with you," then it's both true that 1) most (75%) of their advice is bog-standard, and 2) overall, it's terrible, just like an ice cream sundae made with 75% ice cream and 25% antifreeze is both "mostly ice-cream" and also "terrible."
posted by Bugbread at 5:18 AM on August 23, 2022 [5 favorites]
EmpressCallipygos: "Pick Up Artist material also recommends something called "negging"...
What bog-standard dating advice is that?"
I interpreted their comment a bit differently than clawsoon: I think the operative word (phrase?) is "a lot" (as opposed to "all").
I've never really delved into the PUA stuff, so all I know is the stuff everybody knows: negging and other asshole stuff + peacocking and other silly stuff. It wouldn't surprise me if it turned out that I only know the terrible and silly stuff because it's terrible and silly. If some PUA guru's advice is "1) Maintain eye contact, but don't stare. 2) Ask the person questions about themselves. 3) Meet them in a public place where they feel safe. 4) Tell them that they're ugly and they should be happy to be with you," then it's both true that 1) most (75%) of their advice is bog-standard, and 2) overall, it's terrible, just like an ice cream sundae made with 75% ice cream and 25% antifreeze is both "mostly ice-cream" and also "terrible."
posted by Bugbread at 5:18 AM on August 23, 2022 [5 favorites]
I love this conversation, which has made me very very grateful for Mr. eirias.
I'm interested in the repeated comments that this isn't a safe space to talk about fatherhood. That surprised me and I'd like to understand what's behind it.
I once asked my dad why he married my mom. His extremely unromantic answer was "it was time," that is, time for him to marry someone, and she was the most plausible someone in his orbit. I guess he'd dated other women and it hadn't gone well. Judging by their interactions when I was growing up, if what women are looking for is emotional availability, I don't think he would have fared well on the apps. He stood by her through critical illness and disability, though, to a degree that was frankly self-abnegating at times. A museum piece of a man.
One of the things that surprised me in parenting Little eirias is the degree of explicit instruction in emotional literacy we encountered when she was small. I don't know whether this is because the fashion in education has changed or because my upbringing was fairly poor on this account -- I think both are true. It had not occurred to me that practicing naming feelings would be a useful thing and it still did not occur to me until some years later that it was a skill I was missing myself. Between my two parents, my dad was probably the more emotionally healthy one, in that he had mastery of his feelings; I can only remember him yelling at me once. But teaching feelings is not what a father does and so he left it to my mother, who was not suited to the work. Another part of the legacy of patriarchy, I guess.
posted by eirias at 5:39 AM on August 23, 2022 [3 favorites]
I'm interested in the repeated comments that this isn't a safe space to talk about fatherhood. That surprised me and I'd like to understand what's behind it.
I once asked my dad why he married my mom. His extremely unromantic answer was "it was time," that is, time for him to marry someone, and she was the most plausible someone in his orbit. I guess he'd dated other women and it hadn't gone well. Judging by their interactions when I was growing up, if what women are looking for is emotional availability, I don't think he would have fared well on the apps. He stood by her through critical illness and disability, though, to a degree that was frankly self-abnegating at times. A museum piece of a man.
One of the things that surprised me in parenting Little eirias is the degree of explicit instruction in emotional literacy we encountered when she was small. I don't know whether this is because the fashion in education has changed or because my upbringing was fairly poor on this account -- I think both are true. It had not occurred to me that practicing naming feelings would be a useful thing and it still did not occur to me until some years later that it was a skill I was missing myself. Between my two parents, my dad was probably the more emotionally healthy one, in that he had mastery of his feelings; I can only remember him yelling at me once. But teaching feelings is not what a father does and so he left it to my mother, who was not suited to the work. Another part of the legacy of patriarchy, I guess.
posted by eirias at 5:39 AM on August 23, 2022 [3 favorites]
If some PUA guru's advice is "1) Maintain eye contact, but don't stare. 2) Ask the person questions about themselves. 3) Meet them in a public place where they feel safe. 4) Tell them that they're ugly and they should be happy to be with you,"
It's that, but with 37 very specific and concrete substeps, with a made-up explanation from evolutionary psychology about why each substep is necessary.
posted by clawsoon at 5:49 AM on August 23, 2022 [2 favorites]
It's that, but with 37 very specific and concrete substeps, with a made-up explanation from evolutionary psychology about why each substep is necessary.
posted by clawsoon at 5:49 AM on August 23, 2022 [2 favorites]
I interpreted their comment a bit differently than clawsoon: I think the operative word (phrase?) is "a lot" (as opposed to "all").
The part where PUA truly departs from standard dating advice is in what they call "overcoming last minute resistance", i.e. rape advice. That's the strychnine in the ice cream.
...though I will note that Intimate Connections even has an equivalent for that, when Burns notes that a woman who is unsure about sex will often change her mind if you are the one who expresses disinterest and gets up to leave at the right moment. (Between that and the anti-homosexuality advice I have no idea how Intimate Connections became an Ask Mefi favourite, but there you go, the world works in mysterious ways.)
I wish my mind didn't have all this shit in it and instead I had just started out as a reasonably well-adjusted person, lol...
posted by clawsoon at 5:58 AM on August 23, 2022 [3 favorites]
The part where PUA truly departs from standard dating advice is in what they call "overcoming last minute resistance", i.e. rape advice. That's the strychnine in the ice cream.
...though I will note that Intimate Connections even has an equivalent for that, when Burns notes that a woman who is unsure about sex will often change her mind if you are the one who expresses disinterest and gets up to leave at the right moment. (Between that and the anti-homosexuality advice I have no idea how Intimate Connections became an Ask Mefi favourite, but there you go, the world works in mysterious ways.)
I wish my mind didn't have all this shit in it and instead I had just started out as a reasonably well-adjusted person, lol...
posted by clawsoon at 5:58 AM on August 23, 2022 [3 favorites]
I'm interested in the repeated comments that this isn't a safe space to talk about fatherhood. That surprised me and I'd like to understand what's behind it.
Not a father. A sad fact of life is that to an external observer there's not that much daylight between a father talking about positive aspects of his parenting to further a good conversation and a misogynist incel not-all-men-ning to suppress a conversation or redirect it away from women's experiences and concerns to their own.
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 6:28 AM on August 23, 2022 [5 favorites]
Not a father. A sad fact of life is that to an external observer there's not that much daylight between a father talking about positive aspects of his parenting to further a good conversation and a misogynist incel not-all-men-ning to suppress a conversation or redirect it away from women's experiences and concerns to their own.
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 6:28 AM on August 23, 2022 [5 favorites]
This is why I noted in my comment that while relationship advice and knowledge is technically easy to find, it won't do you a whole lot of good to find it.
It's less like wanting a swimming pool but not enough to do all the permits and contractor hiring etc. It's more like, really wanting a swimming pool, but you've been told all your life that actually, you're just kind of supposed to wait around living your life and then someone will build it for you, and do all the maintenance. And that's mostly what you grew up seeing; heck, just a couple generations ago, you could have walked out into the town and grabbed someone (maybe after haggling with their dad) and forced them to build your pool, forever. Oh and also, it's super not cool or dudely for YOU to do the maintenance, that's not your job.
But then they don't DO that, because the designated pool-builders were like "wait a minute, we're people, fuck this. Get in here and smooth this concrete with me," and you not only are furious but also confused and you have no idea how concrete works, and every book you find is just basically about tricking them into finishing the pool.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 6:40 AM on August 23, 2022 [7 favorites]
It's less like wanting a swimming pool but not enough to do all the permits and contractor hiring etc. It's more like, really wanting a swimming pool, but you've been told all your life that actually, you're just kind of supposed to wait around living your life and then someone will build it for you, and do all the maintenance. And that's mostly what you grew up seeing; heck, just a couple generations ago, you could have walked out into the town and grabbed someone (maybe after haggling with their dad) and forced them to build your pool, forever. Oh and also, it's super not cool or dudely for YOU to do the maintenance, that's not your job.
But then they don't DO that, because the designated pool-builders were like "wait a minute, we're people, fuck this. Get in here and smooth this concrete with me," and you not only are furious but also confused and you have no idea how concrete works, and every book you find is just basically about tricking them into finishing the pool.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 6:40 AM on August 23, 2022 [7 favorites]
I'm interested in the repeated comments that this isn't a safe space to talk about fatherhood.
It's... complicated. I could write an essay about it, but I feel like this isn't the thread for that. Suffice it to say, there's a lot of rock-and-hard-place-catch-22s that make it very difficult for... men who are trying to be good... to have deep conversations about their emotions and the realities of modern fatherhood.
This isn't specific to metafilter, it's pretty true in general. It's just that I care about metafilter, and so being vulnerable here about a sensitive topic like fatherhood can be pretty painful, because I (like many others, apparently) have found it really difficult to navigate these conversations without catching a lot of suspicion, pushback, and anger.
And sadly, a lot of that suspicion and anger is, broadly speaking, kind of justified. I mean, just in the context of metafilter, if it's a necessary corrective for the boyzone years, I can kind of accept it. Still, I wish metafilter was a place I could talk openly about being a father, and sadly it is not. So my meaningful conversations about fatherhood are restricted to my other couple of friends who are proud fathers, but thankfully that's enough for me (now that the pandemic is pseudo-over, anyway). I think it's probably pretty damn lonely out there for a lot of fathers, though.
posted by Alex404 at 6:44 AM on August 23, 2022 [16 favorites]
It's... complicated. I could write an essay about it, but I feel like this isn't the thread for that. Suffice it to say, there's a lot of rock-and-hard-place-catch-22s that make it very difficult for... men who are trying to be good... to have deep conversations about their emotions and the realities of modern fatherhood.
This isn't specific to metafilter, it's pretty true in general. It's just that I care about metafilter, and so being vulnerable here about a sensitive topic like fatherhood can be pretty painful, because I (like many others, apparently) have found it really difficult to navigate these conversations without catching a lot of suspicion, pushback, and anger.
And sadly, a lot of that suspicion and anger is, broadly speaking, kind of justified. I mean, just in the context of metafilter, if it's a necessary corrective for the boyzone years, I can kind of accept it. Still, I wish metafilter was a place I could talk openly about being a father, and sadly it is not. So my meaningful conversations about fatherhood are restricted to my other couple of friends who are proud fathers, but thankfully that's enough for me (now that the pandemic is pseudo-over, anyway). I think it's probably pretty damn lonely out there for a lot of fathers, though.
posted by Alex404 at 6:44 AM on August 23, 2022 [16 favorites]
A sad fact of life is that to an external observer there's not that much daylight between a father talking about positive aspects of his parenting to further a good conversation and a misogynist incel not-all-men-ning to suppress a conversation or redirect it away from women's experiences and concerns to their own.
I’m so confused. Isn’t this thread meant to be about men’s experiences? Not trying to pick a fight, I’m genuinely confused here.
posted by eirias at 6:59 AM on August 23, 2022 [1 favorite]
I’m so confused. Isn’t this thread meant to be about men’s experiences? Not trying to pick a fight, I’m genuinely confused here.
posted by eirias at 6:59 AM on August 23, 2022 [1 favorite]
Not a father. A sad fact of life is that to an external observer there's not that much daylight between a father talking about positive aspects of his parenting to further a good conversation and a misogynist incel not-all-men-ning to suppress a conversation or redirect it away from women's experiences and concerns to their own.
The comment was specific to this space, MetaFilter. I take your point, but by injecting your point into this conversation what are we left with? It's hard not to take the insinuation that a non-zero number of comments here, have been made in bad faith?
I've always appreciated the care with which people engage in discussion in this space. I am seeing why some fathers would be very reluctant to speak to this topic, however.
posted by elkevelvet at 7:16 AM on August 23, 2022
The comment was specific to this space, MetaFilter. I take your point, but by injecting your point into this conversation what are we left with? It's hard not to take the insinuation that a non-zero number of comments here, have been made in bad faith?
I've always appreciated the care with which people engage in discussion in this space. I am seeing why some fathers would be very reluctant to speak to this topic, however.
posted by elkevelvet at 7:16 AM on August 23, 2022
"threads to talk about men's experiences" are one of those things that don't go great on Metafilter, I think, and it makes a lot of sense here that men don't want to make themselves vulnerable in a conversation that they've seen go poorly before.
posted by sagc at 7:16 AM on August 23, 2022 [8 favorites]
posted by sagc at 7:16 AM on August 23, 2022 [8 favorites]
I am approaching Year 50, male, never a father, not the worst uncle but not great. I am still learning about myself in terms of how I was parented--fathered, specifically--and met with some pretty huge revelations during a family reunion this summer. My father has been deceased now, over 12 years, and I would dearly love to have him here for conversation. I can see that he was working on being a better father than the dad he had. Hearing stories from my aunts, I'm just seeing a picture much more clearly now. All of us, whatever your gender, are fighting deep beliefs and behaviours.
posted by elkevelvet at 7:23 AM on August 23, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by elkevelvet at 7:23 AM on August 23, 2022 [1 favorite]
eirias: "I'm interested in the repeated comments that this isn't a safe space to talk about fatherhood. That surprised me and I'd like to understand what's behind it."
I'm one of the people who is a father and doesn't feel comfortable talking about parenting on here, but for me it's not a "talking about fatherhood" thing but a "talking about parenting" things. I suspect I'd feel the same way if I were a mother. And MeFi's better than other sites -- while I wouldn't like to talk about parenting here, if I had to talk about it somewhere I'd pick MeFi over other sites.
posted by Bugbread at 7:23 AM on August 23, 2022 [5 favorites]
I'm one of the people who is a father and doesn't feel comfortable talking about parenting on here, but for me it's not a "talking about fatherhood" thing but a "talking about parenting" things. I suspect I'd feel the same way if I were a mother. And MeFi's better than other sites -- while I wouldn't like to talk about parenting here, if I had to talk about it somewhere I'd pick MeFi over other sites.
posted by Bugbread at 7:23 AM on August 23, 2022 [5 favorites]
Pickup artistry is also a good example of the dangers of getting men to figure out amongst themselves how to improve themselves and be better people.
And/or the natural result of seeing others as a means to an end, rather than ends themselves.
I've watched this stuff from the periphery for a while now, and the idea of Love - the what, why, wherefore, and how - seems conspicuously absent from any of their jargon or strategy. Others are things to be claimed, won, or conquered in some sort of weird zero-sum game. Men and women deserve to think much more highly of themselves - worthy and capable of being loved and returning love. Love is not a passing sentiment or a gut feeling (thankfully), but an act - the act of willing the ultimate good for the Other.
Stripped of any concept of love, what these men are after are the externals and sensations in a sort of cargo-cult modeled on a true relationship. It's no wonder at all that desperation is simmering throughout. I wouldn't even know how to address it as a movement, but at an individual level, Love is where I'd start.
posted by jquinby at 7:58 AM on August 23, 2022 [4 favorites]
And/or the natural result of seeing others as a means to an end, rather than ends themselves.
I've watched this stuff from the periphery for a while now, and the idea of Love - the what, why, wherefore, and how - seems conspicuously absent from any of their jargon or strategy. Others are things to be claimed, won, or conquered in some sort of weird zero-sum game. Men and women deserve to think much more highly of themselves - worthy and capable of being loved and returning love. Love is not a passing sentiment or a gut feeling (thankfully), but an act - the act of willing the ultimate good for the Other.
Stripped of any concept of love, what these men are after are the externals and sensations in a sort of cargo-cult modeled on a true relationship. It's no wonder at all that desperation is simmering throughout. I wouldn't even know how to address it as a movement, but at an individual level, Love is where I'd start.
posted by jquinby at 7:58 AM on August 23, 2022 [4 favorites]
but at an individual level, Love is where I'd start.
You mean that anxiety-filled exercise which usually ends with pain and confusion, or, if successful, years of anger and resentment? :-)
posted by clawsoon at 8:28 AM on August 23, 2022
You mean that anxiety-filled exercise which usually ends with pain and confusion, or, if successful, years of anger and resentment? :-)
posted by clawsoon at 8:28 AM on August 23, 2022
I'll jump in as a father raising a son who is now 11. I read about incels and white supremacists recruiting on the Internet, and it terrifies me. And it's not something that a lot of people in my orbit, including my wife, are really aware of; I'd say I'm only aware of it because of my time on Metafilter, and yet I still don't exactly know how to combat it without running my household like an Orwellian surveillance state. What we have settled on is a level of trust and then just checking in frequently about online interactions and where he is spending time (mostly Minecraft) and who he is talking to.
My son is a lovely person, kind and caring, frequently helpful without being asked or reminded. I do try to make room to talk about emotions and to really listen to what is going on in his life, but I can see that he isn't very responsive to questions about these things, it seems he'd rather not go into detail. And so I don't push too hard because I don't want to drive him away. It feels like a constant balancing act, and while it's going pretty well so far, I think, it's only going to get more difficult.
I believe that I model respect for women, through the way I interact with my wife and daughter and our many professional women friends. He is similarly exposed to all these successful women, people who have exactly the kind of expectations that this article is talking about; in many cases he also has the male partners of these women to look up to, which is encouraging. My wife and I talk regularly about our roles in the domestic sphere, and though I can always do better, I also believe that I do a good job of taking care of my fair share of things.
I was a shy kid and teen and did not have much luck in the dating realm until college. I don't think I would have fallen into these Men's Rights/PUA spheres. I certainly hope not! But I can also remember the sting of rejection and the feeling that there was no one for me, and all this stuff certainly worries me when thinking about my son. Though my father was largely a good dad, like many in his generation, he didn't talk much about emotions with me, though he was certainly not one to punish me for having them. It just . . . wasn't a conversation we had. So that's something I'd like to do better with my own son (and my daughter!).
I find threads like these to be some of the best on Metafilter. The "original" emotional labor thread was a real eye-opener and led me to have some conversations with my wife and to do more around those kinds of "unseen" tasks. I hope that this thread can be similarly eye-opening.
posted by dellsolace at 8:47 AM on August 23, 2022 [11 favorites]
My son is a lovely person, kind and caring, frequently helpful without being asked or reminded. I do try to make room to talk about emotions and to really listen to what is going on in his life, but I can see that he isn't very responsive to questions about these things, it seems he'd rather not go into detail. And so I don't push too hard because I don't want to drive him away. It feels like a constant balancing act, and while it's going pretty well so far, I think, it's only going to get more difficult.
I believe that I model respect for women, through the way I interact with my wife and daughter and our many professional women friends. He is similarly exposed to all these successful women, people who have exactly the kind of expectations that this article is talking about; in many cases he also has the male partners of these women to look up to, which is encouraging. My wife and I talk regularly about our roles in the domestic sphere, and though I can always do better, I also believe that I do a good job of taking care of my fair share of things.
I was a shy kid and teen and did not have much luck in the dating realm until college. I don't think I would have fallen into these Men's Rights/PUA spheres. I certainly hope not! But I can also remember the sting of rejection and the feeling that there was no one for me, and all this stuff certainly worries me when thinking about my son. Though my father was largely a good dad, like many in his generation, he didn't talk much about emotions with me, though he was certainly not one to punish me for having them. It just . . . wasn't a conversation we had. So that's something I'd like to do better with my own son (and my daughter!).
I find threads like these to be some of the best on Metafilter. The "original" emotional labor thread was a real eye-opener and led me to have some conversations with my wife and to do more around those kinds of "unseen" tasks. I hope that this thread can be similarly eye-opening.
posted by dellsolace at 8:47 AM on August 23, 2022 [11 favorites]
I'm not a father – but the framing of the post (and the sentiment of some of the comments) do not read to me as "place for men to discuss their experiences". More like, "place to discuss how men are the problem".
Which, in many cases, is absolutely true – as Alex404 notes. That's exactly why "men discussing their experiences" is such a difficult conversation to have, particularly in mixed-gender spaces such as MetaFilter.
Any discussion of men who aren't being 100% awful, can easily be mistaken as #NotAllMen, or denial that awful men exist, or invalidation of women's (entirely valid) complaints about common male behaviors, or somesuch.
So finding that narrow ground between acknowledging (on the one hand) that "some men are failing to meet basic standards, and need to step up their game", and acknowledging (on the other hand) that "some men are doing OK, or are at least trying, or maybe aren't doing better because they too have been failed by patriarchy" can feel like threading a needle. Especially on MeFi, where uncharitable interpretation of others' comments is a lifestyle.
Speaking only for myself, of course. I'll leave it at that.
posted by escape from the potato planet at 8:55 AM on August 23, 2022 [19 favorites]
Which, in many cases, is absolutely true – as Alex404 notes. That's exactly why "men discussing their experiences" is such a difficult conversation to have, particularly in mixed-gender spaces such as MetaFilter.
Any discussion of men who aren't being 100% awful, can easily be mistaken as #NotAllMen, or denial that awful men exist, or invalidation of women's (entirely valid) complaints about common male behaviors, or somesuch.
So finding that narrow ground between acknowledging (on the one hand) that "some men are failing to meet basic standards, and need to step up their game", and acknowledging (on the other hand) that "some men are doing OK, or are at least trying, or maybe aren't doing better because they too have been failed by patriarchy" can feel like threading a needle. Especially on MeFi, where uncharitable interpretation of others' comments is a lifestyle.
Speaking only for myself, of course. I'll leave it at that.
posted by escape from the potato planet at 8:55 AM on August 23, 2022 [19 favorites]
Are there recognizable culture heroes of Good Dads to flag lonely dads into friendly groups? I’m told Alan Alda was a signal for my parents.
Thinking about lack-of-healthy-courtship-models stuff from way above — age stratification probably doesn’t help, narrowcast entertainment to age cohorts doesn’t help, and it doesn’t help if couples and singles don’t want to hang out with each other. (Sixty years ago this was worse for some singles when "the table won’t balance". I don’t think formal dinner parties are statistically significant now, and there’s plenty of reluctance the other way: finding something seven people find tolerable is short-term harder than going your favorite place and hoping six other people show up.)
Another stumbling block I’ve read studies on is "capstone marriage". It used to be more socially normal to marry young and poor, tiny local wedding, starter jobs at the same time. Apparently this feels much scarier to people now and we postpone what might be the advantages of marriage until both parties are successful. IIRC it’s hard to tease out of the data how much this is because of economic precarity and how much is high economic expectations. ( A lot of the 1950s were not economically stable in the US but people had twenty years of low expectations and were willing to risk family formation. )
posted by clew at 9:07 AM on August 23, 2022 [2 favorites]
Thinking about lack-of-healthy-courtship-models stuff from way above — age stratification probably doesn’t help, narrowcast entertainment to age cohorts doesn’t help, and it doesn’t help if couples and singles don’t want to hang out with each other. (Sixty years ago this was worse for some singles when "the table won’t balance". I don’t think formal dinner parties are statistically significant now, and there’s plenty of reluctance the other way: finding something seven people find tolerable is short-term harder than going your favorite place and hoping six other people show up.)
Another stumbling block I’ve read studies on is "capstone marriage". It used to be more socially normal to marry young and poor, tiny local wedding, starter jobs at the same time. Apparently this feels much scarier to people now and we postpone what might be the advantages of marriage until both parties are successful. IIRC it’s hard to tease out of the data how much this is because of economic precarity and how much is high economic expectations. ( A lot of the 1950s were not economically stable in the US but people had twenty years of low expectations and were willing to risk family formation. )
posted by clew at 9:07 AM on August 23, 2022 [2 favorites]
But I don't see that therapy is the answer to this particular problem. Most male singletons I see don't seem to be getting rejected by women for lack of emotional intelligence, they're too scared of rejection to approach women much at all.
I didn't much like asking women out directly in real life because of this, and I preferred the more direct 'meet market' of online dating. But overall I'm pretty happy with my personality including that aspect of it, so I wouldn't have gotten therapy for it, anymore than I would drive MiraK's kid directly to therapy for not wanting to talk to a cashier (for example, and sorry to use you), but in the grand scheme of things, if a boy can't talk to a cashier which is about as low stakes as things get, how will he ever ask out a girl?
Also, I grew up in a small town with only 11 girls in my class, vs 19 boys so high school dating life was exactly like the world of Chads, and middling kids like myself were SOL or had to date out of town. And most were paired up by the 4th or 5th grade, way before I was even really interested in dating. Whatever. I liked school so it was no big deal and the girls were perfectly nice to me and I had friends. I can't speak for those worse off than me, if they would have become 'radicalized'. IMO, the white upper class is far more likely to be radicalized, while also being married and raising their kids to be radicalized. I honestly don't see that much correlation.
Also, it sucks to hear it, but every PUA wants to be 6 ft+ tall, rich, and relatively attractive because women ask them out way more often instead of them having to do 85% of the asking. It doesn't matter if they are shy or have zero personality or their only life skill is video games. It's living life on 'easy level' which is a thing people say here.
posted by The_Vegetables at 9:40 AM on August 23, 2022 [1 favorite]
I didn't much like asking women out directly in real life because of this, and I preferred the more direct 'meet market' of online dating. But overall I'm pretty happy with my personality including that aspect of it, so I wouldn't have gotten therapy for it, anymore than I would drive MiraK's kid directly to therapy for not wanting to talk to a cashier (for example, and sorry to use you), but in the grand scheme of things, if a boy can't talk to a cashier which is about as low stakes as things get, how will he ever ask out a girl?
Also, I grew up in a small town with only 11 girls in my class, vs 19 boys so high school dating life was exactly like the world of Chads, and middling kids like myself were SOL or had to date out of town. And most were paired up by the 4th or 5th grade, way before I was even really interested in dating. Whatever. I liked school so it was no big deal and the girls were perfectly nice to me and I had friends. I can't speak for those worse off than me, if they would have become 'radicalized'. IMO, the white upper class is far more likely to be radicalized, while also being married and raising their kids to be radicalized. I honestly don't see that much correlation.
Also, it sucks to hear it, but every PUA wants to be 6 ft+ tall, rich, and relatively attractive because women ask them out way more often instead of them having to do 85% of the asking. It doesn't matter if they are shy or have zero personality or their only life skill is video games. It's living life on 'easy level' which is a thing people say here.
posted by The_Vegetables at 9:40 AM on August 23, 2022 [1 favorite]
I didn't grow up with sisters; girls seemed to come from another planet. My wife only grew up with a sister, so boys seemed equally inscrutable.
Yeah all this talk about parents. My parents were fine, did the best they could; but I think siblings are really important also. I believe if if I'd grown up with even one instead of zero sisters and three brothers my boy- and young-manhood wouldn't have been so weird and difficult.
posted by Rash at 10:03 AM on August 23, 2022 [3 favorites]
Yeah all this talk about parents. My parents were fine, did the best they could; but I think siblings are really important also. I believe if if I'd grown up with even one instead of zero sisters and three brothers my boy- and young-manhood wouldn't have been so weird and difficult.
posted by Rash at 10:03 AM on August 23, 2022 [3 favorites]
(As a mom, agree that talking about parenting here is extremely difficult.)
I really appreciate dads being brave enough to talk about being fathers.
posted by kitcat at 10:19 AM on August 23, 2022 [4 favorites]
I really appreciate dads being brave enough to talk about being fathers.
posted by kitcat at 10:19 AM on August 23, 2022 [4 favorites]
I am in my 60s. Men have more social options, like going to a bar and watching sports, etc. Women can, too, but it may be a hostile or even unsafe environment, and in my age bracket, it's not really socially acceptable.
Women always, always, have to worry about safety. Women who are trans have talked about what a surprise this is.
If men want to resolve loneliness, esp. as they age, they have way more dating options, just because of the numbers. If men want to resolve loneliness, they have a lot of options. Like a neighbor I knew whose wife died, and despite great career skills, he didn't know how to cook anything or do laundry and demanded his daughters care for him despite the closest one having small children and living 45 minutes away. Then he started hanging out at the local pool and was the darling of the many older women, happy to have him to dinner, because male companionship has value. This is just such a weird take on a solvable to me. Oh noes, I have privilege and I'm lonely..
posted by theora55 at 10:28 AM on August 23, 2022 [7 favorites]
Women always, always, have to worry about safety. Women who are trans have talked about what a surprise this is.
If men want to resolve loneliness, esp. as they age, they have way more dating options, just because of the numbers. If men want to resolve loneliness, they have a lot of options. Like a neighbor I knew whose wife died, and despite great career skills, he didn't know how to cook anything or do laundry and demanded his daughters care for him despite the closest one having small children and living 45 minutes away. Then he started hanging out at the local pool and was the darling of the many older women, happy to have him to dinner, because male companionship has value. This is just such a weird take on a solvable to me. Oh noes, I have privilege and I'm lonely..
posted by theora55 at 10:28 AM on August 23, 2022 [7 favorites]
I hesitate to use the word trauma to describe things. Sometimes I feel that the term is at risk of being overapplied and misattributed, though of course it is not my place to say what another person's experiences feel like. But I do wonder about the concept of trauma in gendered socialization.
I think of 'trauma' as an event or series of events that overwhelms the capacity of the body and the brain to process, understand, contextualize, feel the effects, and then move on. The experience of traumatic events requires some kind of outside help to resolve the trauma. You need an external voice to help you feel the overwhelming feelings: to name them, give you space to express them, mirror them, validate them, make them real for you, give them a context. You need another person to help make your feelings real.
Children require their adult guardians to mirror, acknowledge, validate, and name their emotions. Later on in childhood, they will also need this from their peers and from other adult authority figures. So if we conceive of trauma by the above definition -- events that exceed our capacity to feel, process, name, contextualize, and move on without external help -- then many adverse experiences and many strong emotions become potentially traumatic if a child's guardian refuses to help the child process them.
I believe that being raised as a boy imparts a particular kind of low-grade trauma that results from withholding emotional literacy. It's often gentle (though sometimes not), it's often subtle (though sometimes not). Gender socialization must be taught, not only by parents but by peers and by society at large. It comes from TV, it comes from teachers and neighbors, it comes from everywhere. And part of teaching a boy to be a boy means withholding the validation of feelings, refusing to name and acknowledge feelings, negating the importance of feelings, teaching the danger of sharing emotions, and demonstrating to the boy that in order to grow up he is going to have to put a fucking lid on it, because that's what it is to be a man. Of course, the withholding of emotional validation is also done to girls in other ways, e.g. ignoring and minimizing their anger. The lessons imparted to children in our society include but are not limited to: girls share their feelings, live by their feelings, are dominated by their feelings, yet paradoxically they are also docile; boys act out their feelings, absorb their feelings, dominate their own feelings, or simply have no feelings -- yet paradoxically they are also aggressive and unruly. Girls are taught that it is expected of them to communicate emotions with each other and to perform emotional labor for themselves and for others. Meanwhile, boys are taught that emotional vulnerability is dangerous and inappropriate. Don't cry in front of your friends; don't express affection aside from the occasional back-slapping bro-hug; stop being dramatic. (This is one reason why middle school is so hellish especially for girls: around that age they go through the gauntlet of learning what is appropriate and what is not appropriate in sharing emotions as they approach puberty, while boys are simply asked to skip that lesson.)
Most therapy requires the naming and detailed discussion of emotions, yet men in general have not only been discouraged from sharing emotions during their formative years, they've often been taught to divorce themselves as much as possible from their own emotions. I've been in therapy since I was 13 and I've only recently come to understand that a emotion exists in my body as a physical sensation, and that this physical sensation is consubstantial and co-arising with the anger, the fear, the pleasure, whatever it is. Yes, it's taken me 20-odd years of therapy to learn what a feeling is. At least in my case, the phrase "this is 101 shit" isn't even the half of it. You cannot feel what you cannot name, and you cannot feel what you cannot share.
posted by cubeb at 10:31 AM on August 23, 2022 [15 favorites]
I think of 'trauma' as an event or series of events that overwhelms the capacity of the body and the brain to process, understand, contextualize, feel the effects, and then move on. The experience of traumatic events requires some kind of outside help to resolve the trauma. You need an external voice to help you feel the overwhelming feelings: to name them, give you space to express them, mirror them, validate them, make them real for you, give them a context. You need another person to help make your feelings real.
Children require their adult guardians to mirror, acknowledge, validate, and name their emotions. Later on in childhood, they will also need this from their peers and from other adult authority figures. So if we conceive of trauma by the above definition -- events that exceed our capacity to feel, process, name, contextualize, and move on without external help -- then many adverse experiences and many strong emotions become potentially traumatic if a child's guardian refuses to help the child process them.
I believe that being raised as a boy imparts a particular kind of low-grade trauma that results from withholding emotional literacy. It's often gentle (though sometimes not), it's often subtle (though sometimes not). Gender socialization must be taught, not only by parents but by peers and by society at large. It comes from TV, it comes from teachers and neighbors, it comes from everywhere. And part of teaching a boy to be a boy means withholding the validation of feelings, refusing to name and acknowledge feelings, negating the importance of feelings, teaching the danger of sharing emotions, and demonstrating to the boy that in order to grow up he is going to have to put a fucking lid on it, because that's what it is to be a man. Of course, the withholding of emotional validation is also done to girls in other ways, e.g. ignoring and minimizing their anger. The lessons imparted to children in our society include but are not limited to: girls share their feelings, live by their feelings, are dominated by their feelings, yet paradoxically they are also docile; boys act out their feelings, absorb their feelings, dominate their own feelings, or simply have no feelings -- yet paradoxically they are also aggressive and unruly. Girls are taught that it is expected of them to communicate emotions with each other and to perform emotional labor for themselves and for others. Meanwhile, boys are taught that emotional vulnerability is dangerous and inappropriate. Don't cry in front of your friends; don't express affection aside from the occasional back-slapping bro-hug; stop being dramatic. (This is one reason why middle school is so hellish especially for girls: around that age they go through the gauntlet of learning what is appropriate and what is not appropriate in sharing emotions as they approach puberty, while boys are simply asked to skip that lesson.)
Most therapy requires the naming and detailed discussion of emotions, yet men in general have not only been discouraged from sharing emotions during their formative years, they've often been taught to divorce themselves as much as possible from their own emotions. I've been in therapy since I was 13 and I've only recently come to understand that a emotion exists in my body as a physical sensation, and that this physical sensation is consubstantial and co-arising with the anger, the fear, the pleasure, whatever it is. Yes, it's taken me 20-odd years of therapy to learn what a feeling is. At least in my case, the phrase "this is 101 shit" isn't even the half of it. You cannot feel what you cannot name, and you cannot feel what you cannot share.
posted by cubeb at 10:31 AM on August 23, 2022 [15 favorites]
"threads to talk about men's experiences" are one of those things that don't go great on Metafilter, I think, and it makes a lot of sense here that men don't want to make themselves vulnerable in a conversation that they've seen go poorly before.
Fair enough; I absolutely get that. At the same time, my own experience with dating as a single middle-aged man taught me a very valuable lesson (perhaps one of the "skills" referenced in the linked article): It is extremely important to have the ability to hear and consider points of view that might have a negative emotional impact on you in some way, and to handle/process those other points of view as well as your own emotional reaction to them in a healthy, productive way.
That doesn't mean you have to accept someone's point of view when it affects you negatively somehow; it just means it is super helpful to have the ability to deal with it in a positive fashion, regardless of whether that point of view is correct/justified/hostile/insulting/whatever.
For example, one of the issues faced by single men trying to form relationships (and this obviously goes for many women too) is how to handle rejection. Rejection comes in many forms. Sometimes it's polite and reasonable; other times, the other person can do it in a very hurtful, insulting, or otherwise harmful way that is completely unjustifiable. Either way, it's important to be able to handle it without letting it make you angry and bitter. If that rejection was actually an objectively reasonable response to your own shortcomings, it's important to realize that and figure out what it is about yourself that you might want to address/fix/treat. Alternatively, if that rejection was just someone else being a shitty person, it's important to be able to move past it and not take it personally or let it consume you with bitterness and anger. To figure out which response is appropriate requires the ability to step back, engage in self-reflection, and look at yourself honestly.
The same thing goes for the kinds of responses you get when you engage in any kind of conversation on the Internet, MeFi included (or perhaps especially MeFi). I make it a point to engage here even when I suspect I'll get a fair number of hostile reactions based in large part on my being a cishet male expressing my own views, and which could cause me to feel any number of negative emotions when read those reactions.
Sometimes those negative responses from others here are coming from a place I don't think is reasonable, accurate, or justified--e.g., maybe they incorporate some inaccurate assumptions about where I'm coming from based solely on the fact that I'm a cishet male, or maybe the other person is just angry/bitter at the world and they're lashing out at me for it.
Other times, however, the negative reactions I've gotten here have caused me to reconsider my own positions on things--I'll step back, think about it, and ask myself if this is a blind spot I have, or if I'm incorporating some inaccurate assumptions of my own, whatever--and sometimes I come to the conclusion that the other person is probably right, and I need to adjust my own thinking about things.
Either way, I try not to get myself into a spot where I'm reacting in an unhealthy way--either with anger/vitriol when I think I'm right, or by uncritically rejecting the other's viewpoint when in fact I'm wrong.
Having the ability to do that is essential to becoming a better person, I think. It's easier said then done, of course, but I think it's worth it to try, even if it's painful sometimes.
posted by mikeand1 at 10:40 AM on August 23, 2022 [15 favorites]
Fair enough; I absolutely get that. At the same time, my own experience with dating as a single middle-aged man taught me a very valuable lesson (perhaps one of the "skills" referenced in the linked article): It is extremely important to have the ability to hear and consider points of view that might have a negative emotional impact on you in some way, and to handle/process those other points of view as well as your own emotional reaction to them in a healthy, productive way.
That doesn't mean you have to accept someone's point of view when it affects you negatively somehow; it just means it is super helpful to have the ability to deal with it in a positive fashion, regardless of whether that point of view is correct/justified/hostile/insulting/whatever.
For example, one of the issues faced by single men trying to form relationships (and this obviously goes for many women too) is how to handle rejection. Rejection comes in many forms. Sometimes it's polite and reasonable; other times, the other person can do it in a very hurtful, insulting, or otherwise harmful way that is completely unjustifiable. Either way, it's important to be able to handle it without letting it make you angry and bitter. If that rejection was actually an objectively reasonable response to your own shortcomings, it's important to realize that and figure out what it is about yourself that you might want to address/fix/treat. Alternatively, if that rejection was just someone else being a shitty person, it's important to be able to move past it and not take it personally or let it consume you with bitterness and anger. To figure out which response is appropriate requires the ability to step back, engage in self-reflection, and look at yourself honestly.
The same thing goes for the kinds of responses you get when you engage in any kind of conversation on the Internet, MeFi included (or perhaps especially MeFi). I make it a point to engage here even when I suspect I'll get a fair number of hostile reactions based in large part on my being a cishet male expressing my own views, and which could cause me to feel any number of negative emotions when read those reactions.
Sometimes those negative responses from others here are coming from a place I don't think is reasonable, accurate, or justified--e.g., maybe they incorporate some inaccurate assumptions about where I'm coming from based solely on the fact that I'm a cishet male, or maybe the other person is just angry/bitter at the world and they're lashing out at me for it.
Other times, however, the negative reactions I've gotten here have caused me to reconsider my own positions on things--I'll step back, think about it, and ask myself if this is a blind spot I have, or if I'm incorporating some inaccurate assumptions of my own, whatever--and sometimes I come to the conclusion that the other person is probably right, and I need to adjust my own thinking about things.
Either way, I try not to get myself into a spot where I'm reacting in an unhealthy way--either with anger/vitriol when I think I'm right, or by uncritically rejecting the other's viewpoint when in fact I'm wrong.
Having the ability to do that is essential to becoming a better person, I think. It's easier said then done, of course, but I think it's worth it to try, even if it's painful sometimes.
posted by mikeand1 at 10:40 AM on August 23, 2022 [15 favorites]
(For a very recent example of the water we're all swimming in, take the commercials that are airing for the brand Hims and Hers. The company's shtick is, essentially, gendered self-care. I'd heard ads on podcasts for Hims that mentioned online therapy, but the recent TV commercial, all 30 seconds of it, was 100% about dick pills. "Get Hard," the chyron screamed! We are meant to understand that maintaining an erection is the totality of self-care for men. Meanwhile, the advertisement for Hers -- which aired during the same TV episode on Hulu -- was a woman tearing up on camera as she described how badly she had needed therapy and what wonders it had worked for her. Now, imagine being a 10 or 11 year old boy and seeing those two ads, one after the other.)
posted by cubeb at 10:42 AM on August 23, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by cubeb at 10:42 AM on August 23, 2022 [2 favorites]
take the commercials that are airing for the brand Hims and Hers. The company's shtick is, essentially, gendered self-care.
Obligatory Mitchell and Webb on advertising. It's barely a parody.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 10:54 AM on August 23, 2022 [3 favorites]
Obligatory Mitchell and Webb on advertising. It's barely a parody.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 10:54 AM on August 23, 2022 [3 favorites]
it doesn’t help if couples and singles don’t want to hang out with each other. (Sixty years ago this was worse for some singles when "the table won’t balance".)
It was much more common sixty years ago, but it still happened to me occasionally in the 90's-00's. Oh, the awkwardness of being thrown together with the only single man in the group, when it seems clear as day that he'd rather be anywhere else!
Also, I grew up in a small town with only 11 girls in my class, vs 19 boys so high school dating life was exactly like the world of Chads, and middling kids like myself were SOL or had to date out of town. And most were paired up by the 4th or 5th grade, way before I was even really interested in dating.
Small-town high school dating is the WORST! My class was twice as big as yours, but that's still not a big enough pool to keep it from feeling incestuous. Especially when, as you say, a lot of people were already "taken."
Once the rarefied, not-like-real-life crucible of K-12 school was over, it was such a relief just to be able to make friends with men. I've had so many lovely male friends over the years that it makes me sad when I hear men who've been caught up in the radical MRA/PUA/incel mindset say that they don't want women as friends, or worse, that it's impossible for men and women to even be friends and if you have a friend of the opposite sex one of you must be deceiving the other. It's heartbreaking.
And part of teaching a boy to be a boy means withholding the validation of feelings, refusing to name and acknowledge feelings, negating the importance of feelings, teaching the danger of sharing emotions, and demonstrating to the boy that in order to grow up he is going to have to put a fucking lid on it, because that's what it is to be a man. Of course, the withholding of emotional validation is also done to girls in other ways, e.g. ignoring and minimizing their anger.
It is truly frightening to see how many boys have been brought up being told that anger is the only emotion they're allowed to express and how many girls have been brought up being told that anger is the only emotion they're not allowed to express. It's got to be even more confusing for kids who fall outside the assigned-gender-binary system. It's really encouraging to see that becoming less and less common.
posted by The Underpants Monster at 11:10 AM on August 23, 2022 [6 favorites]
It was much more common sixty years ago, but it still happened to me occasionally in the 90's-00's. Oh, the awkwardness of being thrown together with the only single man in the group, when it seems clear as day that he'd rather be anywhere else!
Also, I grew up in a small town with only 11 girls in my class, vs 19 boys so high school dating life was exactly like the world of Chads, and middling kids like myself were SOL or had to date out of town. And most were paired up by the 4th or 5th grade, way before I was even really interested in dating.
Small-town high school dating is the WORST! My class was twice as big as yours, but that's still not a big enough pool to keep it from feeling incestuous. Especially when, as you say, a lot of people were already "taken."
Once the rarefied, not-like-real-life crucible of K-12 school was over, it was such a relief just to be able to make friends with men. I've had so many lovely male friends over the years that it makes me sad when I hear men who've been caught up in the radical MRA/PUA/incel mindset say that they don't want women as friends, or worse, that it's impossible for men and women to even be friends and if you have a friend of the opposite sex one of you must be deceiving the other. It's heartbreaking.
And part of teaching a boy to be a boy means withholding the validation of feelings, refusing to name and acknowledge feelings, negating the importance of feelings, teaching the danger of sharing emotions, and demonstrating to the boy that in order to grow up he is going to have to put a fucking lid on it, because that's what it is to be a man. Of course, the withholding of emotional validation is also done to girls in other ways, e.g. ignoring and minimizing their anger.
It is truly frightening to see how many boys have been brought up being told that anger is the only emotion they're allowed to express and how many girls have been brought up being told that anger is the only emotion they're not allowed to express. It's got to be even more confusing for kids who fall outside the assigned-gender-binary system. It's really encouraging to see that becoming less and less common.
posted by The Underpants Monster at 11:10 AM on August 23, 2022 [6 favorites]
I've been in therapy since I was 13 and I've only recently come to understand that a emotion exists in my body as a physical sensation, and that this physical sensation is consubstantial and co-arising with the anger, the fear, the pleasure, whatever it is.
I consider myself to be a physical process embedded in a larger physical world. I have completely given up on the idea of myself as occupying a body, having pondered that model for many years and finding all kinds of ways in which it is grossly inadequate; the long and short of it is that I am this body, and what my mind gets up to in any given moment is only part of what my whole self is doing and often not even the most important or consequential part.
This perspective makes it very easy to understand emotion as a whole-body phenomenon, not just a brain thing. Emotion is not only a physical sensation but a whole cascade of physical processes and many of those processes both happen and leave lasting traces whether or not they make their associated sensations available to consciousness. Not only does emotion not happen solely inside the mind, it always happens in muscles and glands and gut and circulatory and nervous systems simultaneously, and it conditions the ways in which all of these subsystems learn and adapt and habituate.
Detailed emotional recall for examination and analysis purposes seems to be particularly accessible via exploration and manipulation of breath and musculature. I have been lucky enough to have found a skilled myotherapist who is as interested in that aspect of the work as I am, have consequently got tremendous value from doing just that on a weekly basis, and can thoroughly recommend the same approach to anybody else who finds themselves offered a similar opportunity. You'd be mad not to take it.
posted by flabdablet at 11:56 AM on August 23, 2022 [11 favorites]
I consider myself to be a physical process embedded in a larger physical world. I have completely given up on the idea of myself as occupying a body, having pondered that model for many years and finding all kinds of ways in which it is grossly inadequate; the long and short of it is that I am this body, and what my mind gets up to in any given moment is only part of what my whole self is doing and often not even the most important or consequential part.
This perspective makes it very easy to understand emotion as a whole-body phenomenon, not just a brain thing. Emotion is not only a physical sensation but a whole cascade of physical processes and many of those processes both happen and leave lasting traces whether or not they make their associated sensations available to consciousness. Not only does emotion not happen solely inside the mind, it always happens in muscles and glands and gut and circulatory and nervous systems simultaneously, and it conditions the ways in which all of these subsystems learn and adapt and habituate.
Detailed emotional recall for examination and analysis purposes seems to be particularly accessible via exploration and manipulation of breath and musculature. I have been lucky enough to have found a skilled myotherapist who is as interested in that aspect of the work as I am, have consequently got tremendous value from doing just that on a weekly basis, and can thoroughly recommend the same approach to anybody else who finds themselves offered a similar opportunity. You'd be mad not to take it.
posted by flabdablet at 11:56 AM on August 23, 2022 [11 favorites]
or worse, that it's impossible for men and women to even be friends and if you have a friend of the opposite sex one of you must be deceiving the other.
I remember when I first heard that idea. It was from a woman I was dating who really liked Sex in the City and When Harry Met Sally. She was jealous and suspicious of women who were my friends, and did her best to separate me from them. I wonder how often, for both men and women, that idea exists to justify and feed into anxiety and jealousy.
posted by clawsoon at 12:02 PM on August 23, 2022 [2 favorites]
I remember when I first heard that idea. It was from a woman I was dating who really liked Sex in the City and When Harry Met Sally. She was jealous and suspicious of women who were my friends, and did her best to separate me from them. I wonder how often, for both men and women, that idea exists to justify and feed into anxiety and jealousy.
posted by clawsoon at 12:02 PM on August 23, 2022 [2 favorites]
One my longstanding policies for living is that if you give me an ultimatum where I'm forced to choose between associating with you and associating with anybody else, I'll choose to stop associating with you.
It's been a very useful rule and has weeded out a lot of unnecessary drama.
It should go without saying, but I'll say it anyway, that the flip side of that policy is that I will never give anybody else any such ultimatum.
People are not each other's possessions and treating each other as if we were is just flat wrong.
posted by flabdablet at 12:09 PM on August 23, 2022 [6 favorites]
It's been a very useful rule and has weeded out a lot of unnecessary drama.
It should go without saying, but I'll say it anyway, that the flip side of that policy is that I will never give anybody else any such ultimatum.
People are not each other's possessions and treating each other as if we were is just flat wrong.
posted by flabdablet at 12:09 PM on August 23, 2022 [6 favorites]
Having dated on apps for years as a guy dating women, the idea that women have really high standards, or higher standards than some mythical time of the past, rings false to me. There are many girls who just wanna have fun. There are also many women who know what they want and don't waste time about it.
Statements like 'women have higher standards now' seems like a misogynist statement from anxiety, as if the person is realizing that Some Women Out There have standards, and Society says that that has to be accepted now.
Like the anxiety that some people who eat meat have about vegetarians-- just the idea that someone out there doesn't hold the same values as you becomes a reason to be offended, I think because it causes anxiety, if you haven't thought about your own values. I heard a lot of this anxiety from other boys at religious school, because they just never had a chance to avoid misogynist thinking.
I think I was just lucky, as a teen, to have neighborhood friends outside of school who were girls I could smoke cigarettes and play cards with.
Anyway, because I don't think it's actually true, i would like to see more evidence behind statements like "women are increasingly selective".
posted by eustatic at 9:15 PM on August 23, 2022 [4 favorites]
Statements like 'women have higher standards now' seems like a misogynist statement from anxiety, as if the person is realizing that Some Women Out There have standards, and Society says that that has to be accepted now.
Like the anxiety that some people who eat meat have about vegetarians-- just the idea that someone out there doesn't hold the same values as you becomes a reason to be offended, I think because it causes anxiety, if you haven't thought about your own values. I heard a lot of this anxiety from other boys at religious school, because they just never had a chance to avoid misogynist thinking.
I think I was just lucky, as a teen, to have neighborhood friends outside of school who were girls I could smoke cigarettes and play cards with.
Anyway, because I don't think it's actually true, i would like to see more evidence behind statements like "women are increasingly selective".
posted by eustatic at 9:15 PM on August 23, 2022 [4 favorites]
I think wealth inequality in the USA is the issue that is most subject to this phenomenon of "false social reality", but only because racial inequality has gotten more attention of late, Dr Ibram Kendi on the Today show and all
posted by eustatic at 9:55 PM on August 23, 2022
posted by eustatic at 9:55 PM on August 23, 2022
I have a male friend who has done the therapy, and has a degree in psych. I have only recently looked at the dating world (and immediately said no) for many of the same reasons he has been single for a long time. When you do understand yourself and communication it means a LOT of folk are no longer partner material.
It's very easy to gender it as me being female and thus more emotionally prepared or learned or attuned. Except it's a very specific kind of attunement, this generalised female version of emotional intelligence. And it isn't healthier, from what I can see.
The current valorising of attachment theory, with the added empath/trauma awareness, means the kind of insidious emotional abuse I had previously considered rare seems to be almost standard. It's not insecurity or jealousy or anxiety, it's your attachment style and your partner is a narcissist if they don't respond the right way. It's not gaslighting or hovering or manipulation, you're an empath and just know their feelings better than they do. It's not emotional abuse, you were triggered by abandonment feelings and they didn't support you right. It used to be that those kinds of things were rare but it feels like any relationship discourse involves that kind of behaviour from women with the expectation that men are just not educated enough or emotionally aware enough.
And yet when my friend identifies one of those patterns, or any other negative relational incident, he "hates women". When I first met him I didn't think so, but got told a few weeks later that he did, and particularly smart and accomplished women. Which felt weird to me - usually if someone is like that it gets out pretty quick when you're a fat bitch single mother who is an arts professor. It bothered me though. What red flags did I miss? After a while I asked two other people who know him. The dude wondered if it was class - me and my buddy are very working class (and he is a Brown Man too, shock and horror) and most of the folk who were in the gossip session were nice white middle class ladies. The woman I asked though - fellow queer high performer - bluntly said "they probably hit on him and he declined".
And when I asked him, she was right. Not just right, but eventually it turns out they'd isolated and tried getting him drunk in order to get him to sleep with someone. Physically he was in no danger but he was targeted for not being the right kind of man. Which is actually one that just passes that bar. Because if he can call you on your shit, and back it up with citations, the fig leaf of emotionally superior communication is torn away.
It's a pattern I've noticed but never quite so obviously until I saw how he gets treated and navigates that treatment. He is considered an idiot, and then when he isn't, he is punished for that too. And as a queer woman, it is absolutely something I'm well aware of since I'm on the butch/masc side of things and the expectations of what that means is wild.
posted by geek anachronism at 12:27 AM on August 24, 2022 [14 favorites]
It's very easy to gender it as me being female and thus more emotionally prepared or learned or attuned. Except it's a very specific kind of attunement, this generalised female version of emotional intelligence. And it isn't healthier, from what I can see.
The current valorising of attachment theory, with the added empath/trauma awareness, means the kind of insidious emotional abuse I had previously considered rare seems to be almost standard. It's not insecurity or jealousy or anxiety, it's your attachment style and your partner is a narcissist if they don't respond the right way. It's not gaslighting or hovering or manipulation, you're an empath and just know their feelings better than they do. It's not emotional abuse, you were triggered by abandonment feelings and they didn't support you right. It used to be that those kinds of things were rare but it feels like any relationship discourse involves that kind of behaviour from women with the expectation that men are just not educated enough or emotionally aware enough.
And yet when my friend identifies one of those patterns, or any other negative relational incident, he "hates women". When I first met him I didn't think so, but got told a few weeks later that he did, and particularly smart and accomplished women. Which felt weird to me - usually if someone is like that it gets out pretty quick when you're a fat bitch single mother who is an arts professor. It bothered me though. What red flags did I miss? After a while I asked two other people who know him. The dude wondered if it was class - me and my buddy are very working class (and he is a Brown Man too, shock and horror) and most of the folk who were in the gossip session were nice white middle class ladies. The woman I asked though - fellow queer high performer - bluntly said "they probably hit on him and he declined".
And when I asked him, she was right. Not just right, but eventually it turns out they'd isolated and tried getting him drunk in order to get him to sleep with someone. Physically he was in no danger but he was targeted for not being the right kind of man. Which is actually one that just passes that bar. Because if he can call you on your shit, and back it up with citations, the fig leaf of emotionally superior communication is torn away.
It's a pattern I've noticed but never quite so obviously until I saw how he gets treated and navigates that treatment. He is considered an idiot, and then when he isn't, he is punished for that too. And as a queer woman, it is absolutely something I'm well aware of since I'm on the butch/masc side of things and the expectations of what that means is wild.
posted by geek anachronism at 12:27 AM on August 24, 2022 [14 favorites]
geek anachronism, your friend's story puts me in mind of F.D. Signifier's We Need to Talk About how We're Objectified.
posted by clawsoon at 3:46 AM on August 24, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by clawsoon at 3:46 AM on August 24, 2022 [1 favorite]
geek anachronism, I'm kind of gobsmacked that one of the stories in your comment describes attempted sexual assault on your friend but the whole focus of your comment is that your friend gets accused of hating women, as if that's the most significant injustice he has experienced? My jaw dropped when you dismissed the assault attempt by saying, "physically he was in do danger" and went right back to the concerns you have about women accusing your friend of being a misogynist.
If your friend got unfairly accused of hating women in some other context, sure, I get how you'd feel upset about the accusation. But your friend got accused of hating women BY THE SAME PEOPLE WHO TRIED TO SEXUALLY ASSAULT HIM and you're upset about the accusation? I can't wrap my head around your framing of this particular story in this particular way.
posted by MiraK at 8:32 AM on August 24, 2022 [3 favorites]
If your friend got unfairly accused of hating women in some other context, sure, I get how you'd feel upset about the accusation. But your friend got accused of hating women BY THE SAME PEOPLE WHO TRIED TO SEXUALLY ASSAULT HIM and you're upset about the accusation? I can't wrap my head around your framing of this particular story in this particular way.
posted by MiraK at 8:32 AM on August 24, 2022 [3 favorites]
Sexual assault by women on men is officially a negligible or non-existent phenomenon. In the UK a man or boy who is sexually assaulted (by any gender) is counted as a "male victim of violence against women".
Even a man as ugly as me gets a bit of that stuff, albeit a lot milder, at least when younger and from older women.
(For a more extreme example from popular culture, may I recommend checking out the relationship between Marcia and Brian in the excellent Spaced.)
I'd suggest that the other stuff in geek anachronism's comment is more significant to the matter at hand: the issue is that the women have constructed a moral framework within which they are incapable of immoral action, therefore the actions of others that they find displeasing must be the source of the problem. At least that's how I read it, and how it resonates with my experience.
(Post or log out...? Post or log out...? How about both? Both is good. See you in a few days.)
posted by Grangousier at 8:55 AM on August 24, 2022 [5 favorites]
Even a man as ugly as me gets a bit of that stuff, albeit a lot milder, at least when younger and from older women.
(For a more extreme example from popular culture, may I recommend checking out the relationship between Marcia and Brian in the excellent Spaced.)
I'd suggest that the other stuff in geek anachronism's comment is more significant to the matter at hand: the issue is that the women have constructed a moral framework within which they are incapable of immoral action, therefore the actions of others that they find displeasing must be the source of the problem. At least that's how I read it, and how it resonates with my experience.
(Post or log out...? Post or log out...? How about both? Both is good. See you in a few days.)
posted by Grangousier at 8:55 AM on August 24, 2022 [5 favorites]
I can contribute that increased focus on feelings as an education topic does seem to due to shifting fashions of education - our local elementary school has an explicit focus on ‘Social and Emotional Learning’ and they go to great lengths to justify it with presentations on test scores etc showing that this material isn’t detracting from academics. This leads me to believe it’s not standard issue.
posted by bq at 10:51 AM on August 24, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by bq at 10:51 AM on August 24, 2022 [1 favorite]
I'd also take issue at 'getting him drunk' -he's a grown man and a master of communication right? Those conniving women didn't "get him drunk".
I'm a bit uneasy about this kind of pushback. I suspect if the genders were flipped, and someone was saying "she's a grown woman and a master of communication, that sleaze didn't 'get her drunk'", people would be upset on her behalf and would come to her defense.
It is still far and away more likely that men do this kind of thing to women, but that doesn't make it excusable on the rare occasions when women do that to men, and it doesn't make it any less wrong to victim-blame than it would be if it were a woman who was the victim.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 1:56 PM on August 24, 2022 [14 favorites]
I'm a bit uneasy about this kind of pushback. I suspect if the genders were flipped, and someone was saying "she's a grown woman and a master of communication, that sleaze didn't 'get her drunk'", people would be upset on her behalf and would come to her defense.
It is still far and away more likely that men do this kind of thing to women, but that doesn't make it excusable on the rare occasions when women do that to men, and it doesn't make it any less wrong to victim-blame than it would be if it were a woman who was the victim.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 1:56 PM on August 24, 2022 [14 favorites]
I'd suggest that the other stuff in geek anachronism's comment is more significant to the matter at hand: the issue is that the women have constructed a moral framework within which they are incapable of immoral action
Yes, the example of sexual assault against men by women being officially either nonexistent or negligible sure supports the notion that such a moral framework does exist. It's not women who constructed it, though, because this rests on 100% patriarchal ideas of what constitutes rape and who is capable of rape and laws that officially do not recognize women's capacity to sexually assault men are older than the legal codes themselves. Women's activism is why men's sexual assault at the hands of women is even on the radar as real assault today.
But that's a digression. I'd really like to understand what you're saying. You're saying that *outside* the context of sexual assault and legal codes thereof, women in the modern day dating context have constructed a moral framework in which women are incapable of immorality. Can you explain what you mean? From what I can understand of geek anachronism's comment, this involves men feeling forced to ensure emotional abuse from women, while women justify the emotional abuse based on pop psychology notions of attachment or trauma. I was following along until this point but then g.a.'s comment gave that sexual assault incident as an illustrative example and confused me completely. 🤯
This is serious and it matters and I can half-see your point but not quite. What does this gendered-emotional-abuse-dressed-up-as-attachment-theory look like in practice? Is there an example or two folks are willing to share of how this modern moral framework works in real life?
posted by MiraK at 2:24 PM on August 24, 2022 [4 favorites]
Yes, the example of sexual assault against men by women being officially either nonexistent or negligible sure supports the notion that such a moral framework does exist. It's not women who constructed it, though, because this rests on 100% patriarchal ideas of what constitutes rape and who is capable of rape and laws that officially do not recognize women's capacity to sexually assault men are older than the legal codes themselves. Women's activism is why men's sexual assault at the hands of women is even on the radar as real assault today.
But that's a digression. I'd really like to understand what you're saying. You're saying that *outside* the context of sexual assault and legal codes thereof, women in the modern day dating context have constructed a moral framework in which women are incapable of immorality. Can you explain what you mean? From what I can understand of geek anachronism's comment, this involves men feeling forced to ensure emotional abuse from women, while women justify the emotional abuse based on pop psychology notions of attachment or trauma. I was following along until this point but then g.a.'s comment gave that sexual assault incident as an illustrative example and confused me completely. 🤯
This is serious and it matters and I can half-see your point but not quite. What does this gendered-emotional-abuse-dressed-up-as-attachment-theory look like in practice? Is there an example or two folks are willing to share of how this modern moral framework works in real life?
posted by MiraK at 2:24 PM on August 24, 2022 [4 favorites]
I strongly, strongly suspect that the racial power dynamics at play in the situation geek anachronism described were highly relevant. Per the video on that topic that clawsoon posted. Rather highlights the importance of approaching things with an intersectional lens.
posted by eviemath at 3:41 PM on August 24, 2022 [3 favorites]
posted by eviemath at 3:41 PM on August 24, 2022 [3 favorites]
I didn't focus on it because it was the underlying rationale for my friend (not a professor - just had the degree) being accused of hating women. It is the foundation for all the assumed misogyny - because instead of accepting that he is a man and thus perpetual horndog he had the audacity to reject a perfectly nice lady, thus must have 'issues' according to that group of folk. And I don't know about you, but consistently providing and pushing more alcohol on someone who has expressed their rejection, then asking again repeatedly, or physically making a move, does count as sexually coercive. My comment about him being physically okay is that he was not going to be forcibly moved by any of them, and also has enough mass that the alcohol doesn't affect him as much as it would have if he had been a regular sized person. Emotionally and mentally? Not at all okay, it was a betrayal of his safety and his autonomy that revealed he wasn't really considered as a person, just a prop.
Because my point wasn't that "oh my friend is so smart and women were mean" it's that he has a level of emotional learning that's both personal and professional, and it doesn't make getting into a relationship easier because there are patterns of gendered behaviour that are coercive and negative and abusive that remain acceptable in many circles, but by women towards men. And make being single the far more preferable choice to being partnered with someone who uses emotionally abusive tactics as normal communication within a relationship AND is supported in that by much of the dominant discourse.
And MiraK as an example, attachment theory in relationships presumes a consistent and static definition. You are Anxious, Avoidant, or Secure (occasionally the others may make an appearance but rarely). I have seen folk claim, with no irony, that Avoidant people are abusive and that Anxious people are more emotionally aware, so how could they even be abusive. Desire for space or alone time or independence is then considered through that lens, and actions that cause anxiety are reconfigured as aggression or neglect. In the context of my anecdote, the women who consider my friend misogynist definitely felt rejected and hurt that he refused to follow their expected social script - he is single, he was offered sex, rejecting that offer has to mean something because his autonomy and agency is not a part of their calculations. They were able to dress all that up in very well spoken feminist rhetoric and emotionally aware language, to reconfigure it as him being a misogynist who doesn't like sexually confident or powerful women. Who is too aggressive towards them. Which as I mentioned, felt weird to me because usually that is pretty obvious to me when I meet dudes like that. I assumed I missed some red flags. I straight up assumed I was wrong because they said all the right words about male-female interaction. Except when I put that alongside his experience (and the observations of mutual friends) I could see exactly how they fit together - the initial incident is elided in favour of dissecting and undermining the inadequate (to them) response. Because no matter what that incident was, his response was hurtful and thus the bigger problem.
(I'd recommend having a look at a few relationship questions on askme recently too - a partner being unable to take a small amount of time to process his emotions being labelled bad was one recently that made me think about this dynamic again, and the perpetual Tiktok psych nonsense that denies the way anxious and insecure partners can be controlling and emotionally abusive UNLESS it's a man)
(And y'know, see above: a man being pushed to drink more while being sexually propositioned is his own responsibility to mitigate, rather than being an aggressive and coercive act by a woman)
Also, just to clarify, my friend is safe and okay, and no longer associates with that group of people. It seemed to spark another round of introspection and life configuration, including the fact he would like to be partnered but isn't going to put himself into a relationship where he has to deal with racist or misogynist shit that denies his intelligence (emotional or otherwise). We talk about that stuff because I have similar issues with dating - I am polyamorous so even with a boyfriend I was on apps until I started having nightmares about it. For me it's different since the misogyny is usually pretty obvious, but even putting that aside, dudes often don't like the kind of woman I am. But it turned out he had similar issues, and the red flags were less overt. Sure he fits a lot of the 'good' criteria but those illustrate that the woman with them is likely to ignore his interiority in favour of expected social scripts. Because yeah he is over 6ft but someone who has that in their profile isn't looking for a guy who also understands how terrifying and intimidating that can make him. Wanting emotionally aware men generally doesn't include being called out for your white nonsense, or the misogynist underpinning of your assumptions. Not always, but it's the flip side of the guy who wants an independent woman then gets pissed you don't do his laundry. Be emotionally intelligent but not enough to identify emotional manipulation.
And the racial dynamics are absolutely relevant and definitely watch the FD Signifier video. His work in general is great, and I can't remember if it was my friend or my boyfriend who started me watching him, but it's very very useful if you don't have lived experience with this. I knew it all intellectually but watching it in real life made it obvious in a lot more ways than I expected.
posted by geek anachronism at 3:56 PM on August 24, 2022 [6 favorites]
Because my point wasn't that "oh my friend is so smart and women were mean" it's that he has a level of emotional learning that's both personal and professional, and it doesn't make getting into a relationship easier because there are patterns of gendered behaviour that are coercive and negative and abusive that remain acceptable in many circles, but by women towards men. And make being single the far more preferable choice to being partnered with someone who uses emotionally abusive tactics as normal communication within a relationship AND is supported in that by much of the dominant discourse.
And MiraK as an example, attachment theory in relationships presumes a consistent and static definition. You are Anxious, Avoidant, or Secure (occasionally the others may make an appearance but rarely). I have seen folk claim, with no irony, that Avoidant people are abusive and that Anxious people are more emotionally aware, so how could they even be abusive. Desire for space or alone time or independence is then considered through that lens, and actions that cause anxiety are reconfigured as aggression or neglect. In the context of my anecdote, the women who consider my friend misogynist definitely felt rejected and hurt that he refused to follow their expected social script - he is single, he was offered sex, rejecting that offer has to mean something because his autonomy and agency is not a part of their calculations. They were able to dress all that up in very well spoken feminist rhetoric and emotionally aware language, to reconfigure it as him being a misogynist who doesn't like sexually confident or powerful women. Who is too aggressive towards them. Which as I mentioned, felt weird to me because usually that is pretty obvious to me when I meet dudes like that. I assumed I missed some red flags. I straight up assumed I was wrong because they said all the right words about male-female interaction. Except when I put that alongside his experience (and the observations of mutual friends) I could see exactly how they fit together - the initial incident is elided in favour of dissecting and undermining the inadequate (to them) response. Because no matter what that incident was, his response was hurtful and thus the bigger problem.
(I'd recommend having a look at a few relationship questions on askme recently too - a partner being unable to take a small amount of time to process his emotions being labelled bad was one recently that made me think about this dynamic again, and the perpetual Tiktok psych nonsense that denies the way anxious and insecure partners can be controlling and emotionally abusive UNLESS it's a man)
(And y'know, see above: a man being pushed to drink more while being sexually propositioned is his own responsibility to mitigate, rather than being an aggressive and coercive act by a woman)
Also, just to clarify, my friend is safe and okay, and no longer associates with that group of people. It seemed to spark another round of introspection and life configuration, including the fact he would like to be partnered but isn't going to put himself into a relationship where he has to deal with racist or misogynist shit that denies his intelligence (emotional or otherwise). We talk about that stuff because I have similar issues with dating - I am polyamorous so even with a boyfriend I was on apps until I started having nightmares about it. For me it's different since the misogyny is usually pretty obvious, but even putting that aside, dudes often don't like the kind of woman I am. But it turned out he had similar issues, and the red flags were less overt. Sure he fits a lot of the 'good' criteria but those illustrate that the woman with them is likely to ignore his interiority in favour of expected social scripts. Because yeah he is over 6ft but someone who has that in their profile isn't looking for a guy who also understands how terrifying and intimidating that can make him. Wanting emotionally aware men generally doesn't include being called out for your white nonsense, or the misogynist underpinning of your assumptions. Not always, but it's the flip side of the guy who wants an independent woman then gets pissed you don't do his laundry. Be emotionally intelligent but not enough to identify emotional manipulation.
And the racial dynamics are absolutely relevant and definitely watch the FD Signifier video. His work in general is great, and I can't remember if it was my friend or my boyfriend who started me watching him, but it's very very useful if you don't have lived experience with this. I knew it all intellectually but watching it in real life made it obvious in a lot more ways than I expected.
posted by geek anachronism at 3:56 PM on August 24, 2022 [6 favorites]
Why do we only want to date men who've been to therapy?
It makes sense. Repressed emotions and unresolved trauma can come out in ugly ways, and if a partner has already bared their soul to a therapist, it’s less likely they’ll start screaming and crying when you politely ask them to stop leaving their wet towels on the floor. It’s not just about the benefits of therapy itself, either – if someone is open about their experience of therapy, their openness can signify other desirable qualities such as emotional intelligence, honesty, and maturity...posted by TheophileEscargot at 2:57 AM on August 25, 2022 [4 favorites]
...There’s also a danger of pathologising behaviours that aren’t necessarily symptomatic of mental illness. “While language can connect us and help us make sense of situations, it can also be reductive and create new barriers and misunderstandings,” Weber explains. “If we overuse terms and weaponise labels, we all get freaked out and want to prove our blamelessness. Psychotherapy terms should lead to insight, not horrifying judgement.”
Why do we only want to date men who've been to therapy?
posted by clawsoon at 4:28 AM on August 25, 2022 [3 favorites]
And if you decide to go private or live outside the UK, it’ll cost you. One session with a psychotherapist can cost upwards of £30 a sessionlol, in what universe are therapists that cheap?
posted by clawsoon at 4:28 AM on August 25, 2022 [3 favorites]
TheophileEscargot, that article makes it sound like "has gone to therapy" is the new "must love dogs", a shorthand for women to identify a man with a range of desirable emotional and social traits. I remember being taken to a dog park for a third or fourth date about a decade ago, during the height of that particular trend, and getting the distinct feeling that how I interacted with the dogs was being noted. It occurred to me at the time that, perhaps as with therapy, there was an unrecognized socioeconomic evaluation happening; if you grew up in a poor neighbourhood where mean dogs roamed freely, you were going to be much more cautious with unfamiliar dogs than someone from an upper-middle-class neighbourhood where such dogs were quickly quashed.
Anyway, based on the number of single-men-who-didn't-want-to-be-single who dutifully got dogs during the "must love dogs" era, I expect that "must have gone to therapy" will also work and many single men will get therapy.
posted by clawsoon at 4:49 AM on August 25, 2022 [2 favorites]
Anyway, based on the number of single-men-who-didn't-want-to-be-single who dutifully got dogs during the "must love dogs" era, I expect that "must have gone to therapy" will also work and many single men will get therapy.
posted by clawsoon at 4:49 AM on August 25, 2022 [2 favorites]
The 'must love dogs' era is not over, not around these parts, anyway. Admitting you don't have a dog is usually a Wrong Answer, and makes you deeply suspect. And there's no acceptable workaround answer, either.
posted by Capt. Renault at 7:33 AM on August 25, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by Capt. Renault at 7:33 AM on August 25, 2022 [2 favorites]
Acceptable workaround: cats.
posted by shenkerism at 10:22 AM on August 25, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by shenkerism at 10:22 AM on August 25, 2022 [2 favorites]
Call Juno an "acceptable workaround" and she'll have you.
posted by flabdablet at 11:47 AM on August 25, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by flabdablet at 11:47 AM on August 25, 2022 [2 favorites]
there was an unrecognized socioeconomic evaluation happening;
Classic along with racism (from what I understand of how that work in the US)? One that definitely gets dressed up as a test of empathy rather than anything else too. Empathy for animals is highlighted, over any cultural or contextual discomfort.
Like sure animals are fine. I have a wonderful cat who is yelling at me right now because she had to get up and it was the worst. But she is an animal. I hate being around untrained dogs, big or small. I have sensory issues touching them (itchy hands augh). I am allergic to my cat even. But the demand for dogs as an accessory to prove empathy doesn't include well trained working dogs, and often actual proper training in any way. Because it isn't just about having an animal and doing right by it, it's about the right kind of class and race signifiers and emotion moments.
posted by geek anachronism at 2:50 PM on August 25, 2022 [4 favorites]
Classic along with racism (from what I understand of how that work in the US)? One that definitely gets dressed up as a test of empathy rather than anything else too. Empathy for animals is highlighted, over any cultural or contextual discomfort.
Like sure animals are fine. I have a wonderful cat who is yelling at me right now because she had to get up and it was the worst. But she is an animal. I hate being around untrained dogs, big or small. I have sensory issues touching them (itchy hands augh). I am allergic to my cat even. But the demand for dogs as an accessory to prove empathy doesn't include well trained working dogs, and often actual proper training in any way. Because it isn't just about having an animal and doing right by it, it's about the right kind of class and race signifiers and emotion moments.
posted by geek anachronism at 2:50 PM on August 25, 2022 [4 favorites]
NB I am not in the dating scene and so I probably don't pick up on nuances that people who are in it would. So, adjust your grain of salt accordingly. But I've always thought of "must love dogs" not so much as an empathy or personality test, but as a declaration that my dog is an important part of my life and if you hate dogs we're not going to be able to spend much time together. Kind of like how you wouldn't want to date somebody who hates kids if you're a custodial parent.
posted by The Underpants Monster at 4:33 AM on August 26, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by The Underpants Monster at 4:33 AM on August 26, 2022 [2 favorites]
But I've always thought of "must love dogs" not so much as an empathy or personality test
Oh, it has definitely become that.
posted by clawsoon at 5:53 AM on August 26, 2022 [1 favorite]
Oh, it has definitely become that.
posted by clawsoon at 5:53 AM on August 26, 2022 [1 favorite]
You are, possibly, not able to understand why your comments are so reprehensible. This sort of white-knighting "no man can ever be harmed by a woman" bullshit is why these threads are so terrible. Who the hell do you think you're defending?
Like, think through what you're saying here. Men are uniquely able to resist social pressure? All men are inevitably the powerful ones in a work situation? Race and neurodiversity and fucking someone being your boss don't matter? You come off as a parody of progressive values.
You make a lot of aggressively-phrased comments that seem like you don't really know what you're talking about. I'd personally try to listen more, rather than attempting to poke holes in the idea that men can be pressured to drink.
Damn.
posted by sagc at 8:28 AM on August 26, 2022 [2 favorites]
Like, think through what you're saying here. Men are uniquely able to resist social pressure? All men are inevitably the powerful ones in a work situation? Race and neurodiversity and fucking someone being your boss don't matter? You come off as a parody of progressive values.
You make a lot of aggressively-phrased comments that seem like you don't really know what you're talking about. I'd personally try to listen more, rather than attempting to poke holes in the idea that men can be pressured to drink.
Damn.
posted by sagc at 8:28 AM on August 26, 2022 [2 favorites]
Actually, your last paragraph is somehow even worse, given the impression that... men should just "deal with" sexual aggression like women do? What does that even mean? Do you think this is a solved problem?
posted by sagc at 8:40 AM on August 26, 2022
posted by sagc at 8:40 AM on August 26, 2022
Like, it's the coercion that's bad, not the failure to deal with it! This seems uncomplicated!
posted by sagc at 8:41 AM on August 26, 2022
posted by sagc at 8:41 AM on August 26, 2022
Mod note: One deleted. Let's not blame the victim.
posted by loup (staff) at 8:42 AM on August 26, 2022
posted by loup (staff) at 8:42 AM on August 26, 2022
Some of you have described how you're raising sweet, responsible boys.
I was also raised to be a sweet, responsible boy. Unfortunately, learning how to be a sweet, responsible boy left me with no knowledge of how to initiate a sexual relationship, which made me vulnerable to the promises of pickup artists.
So as you're raising your sweet, responsible boys, make sure that you teach them how to date, too, so that they don't turn into quietly despairing twenty-somethings.
posted by clawsoon at 3:47 AM on August 28, 2022 [2 favorites]
I was also raised to be a sweet, responsible boy. Unfortunately, learning how to be a sweet, responsible boy left me with no knowledge of how to initiate a sexual relationship, which made me vulnerable to the promises of pickup artists.
So as you're raising your sweet, responsible boys, make sure that you teach them how to date, too, so that they don't turn into quietly despairing twenty-somethings.
posted by clawsoon at 3:47 AM on August 28, 2022 [2 favorites]
(...how to date but also how to be sexually attractive and interesting, too, since the other target of pickup artists were sweet, responsible married men whose wives were no longer sexually interested in them. That, apparently, is its own form of quiet hell.)
posted by clawsoon at 3:57 AM on August 28, 2022
posted by clawsoon at 3:57 AM on August 28, 2022
(I'm sure there are just as many - or many more? - sweet, responsible women who are stuck in marriages with husbands who are no longer sexually interested in them, and that that's a hell, too, but women in those situations who decide they need to find some way out face a different sort of concern than this discussion seems to mostly be about.)
posted by clawsoon at 6:35 AM on August 28, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by clawsoon at 6:35 AM on August 28, 2022 [1 favorite]
I worry about my younger male relatives - I worry that they're going to be soaking in a miasma of toxic culture that is trying to create/enhance the 'grumpy white guy --> alt-right nazi' pipeline
posted by rmd1023 at 7:09 AM on August 28, 2022
posted by rmd1023 at 7:09 AM on August 28, 2022
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