She is "one strong article," as we would say in Ireland.
October 15, 2022 7:21 AM Subscribe
Making the radical case for Sinéad O'Connor: She was right all along [ungated] - "Using extensive archival video — including footage from a wedding at which a teenage O'Connor sang 'Evergreen' — brief, stylized re-creations and interviews with O'Connor's friends, collaborators and contemporaries, 'Nothing Compares' traces O'Connor's meteoric rise from troubled teenager to Rolling Stone cover girl, and her even more precipitous fall from grace... Ferguson said that many of the screenings get rowdy and emotional. Young people come up to her 'with their eyes flashing, just incensed and inspired' by O'Connor's ordeal." Interview with Kathryn Ferguson on Nothing Compares (trailer; Rememberings previously).
i remember thinking the pope burning thing was awesome and that she was SO cool as a kid to the point where i mandela effected myself into thinking she made punk rock instead of 80s pop music. i revisited it a an adult and was so confused because i expected the sex pistols or whatever because in my mind she represented righteous rebellion. eager to watch this doc
posted by dis_integration at 7:43 AM on October 15, 2022 [9 favorites]
posted by dis_integration at 7:43 AM on October 15, 2022 [9 favorites]
Why would an American audience react like that?
There’s a ton of Catholics in New York. Maybe they didn’t like her publicly criticizing their church.
posted by aubilenon at 8:01 AM on October 15, 2022 [15 favorites]
There’s a ton of Catholics in New York. Maybe they didn’t like her publicly criticizing their church.
posted by aubilenon at 8:01 AM on October 15, 2022 [15 favorites]
A couple years earlier, she refused to have the national anthem played before a concert in New Jersey (WaPo, 1990), which probably didn't help matters either.
posted by box at 8:02 AM on October 15, 2022 [7 favorites]
posted by box at 8:02 AM on October 15, 2022 [7 favorites]
Making the radical case for Sinéad O'Connor: She was right all along
I've always been saddened that that is so widely considered a radical case; O'Connor has always seemed to me to be a person of integrity, and every single attack piece I've ever seen directed against her has always struck me as petty, spiteful, ill-informed and self-aggrandizing.
posted by flabdablet at 8:13 AM on October 15, 2022 [73 favorites]
I've always been saddened that that is so widely considered a radical case; O'Connor has always seemed to me to be a person of integrity, and every single attack piece I've ever seen directed against her has always struck me as petty, spiteful, ill-informed and self-aggrandizing.
posted by flabdablet at 8:13 AM on October 15, 2022 [73 favorites]
Why would an American audience react like that?
The short answer is because they believe in God, and if you followed Billy Graham or some other mouthpiece for religion, it would be seen as a potential threat to your beliefs. Easy to boo in sympathy and hedge your bets against it ever being a photo of your leader. Note that the best apologists for any faith in any debate are often vanguard extremists from other sects who know they can argue from a sideline position as a proxy, pseudo-objectively, preemptively defending their same values category without revealing it.
posted by Brian B. at 8:30 AM on October 15, 2022 [10 favorites]
The short answer is because they believe in God, and if you followed Billy Graham or some other mouthpiece for religion, it would be seen as a potential threat to your beliefs. Easy to boo in sympathy and hedge your bets against it ever being a photo of your leader. Note that the best apologists for any faith in any debate are often vanguard extremists from other sects who know they can argue from a sideline position as a proxy, pseudo-objectively, preemptively defending their same values category without revealing it.
posted by Brian B. at 8:30 AM on October 15, 2022 [10 favorites]
saddened that that is so widely considered a radical case
Well there you go taking the words out of my mouth again. I’m wounded by the very notion that there are cultures in the world where O’Connor could even be conceived of as not right all along. I sincerely do not like holding the notion in my mind, trying to empathize with a point of view where there is ambiguity about this.
posted by majick at 8:31 AM on October 15, 2022 [12 favorites]
Well there you go taking the words out of my mouth again. I’m wounded by the very notion that there are cultures in the world where O’Connor could even be conceived of as not right all along. I sincerely do not like holding the notion in my mind, trying to empathize with a point of view where there is ambiguity about this.
posted by majick at 8:31 AM on October 15, 2022 [12 favorites]
Using this post as an excuse to share my absolute favorite performance ever. Starts out small and just grows and grows. Sinead is a titan.
posted by nushustu at 8:52 AM on October 15, 2022 [16 favorites]
posted by nushustu at 8:52 AM on October 15, 2022 [16 favorites]
Always loved Sinéad. The pope pic thing only solidified me as a fan.
posted by Thorzdad at 8:59 AM on October 15, 2022 [10 favorites]
posted by Thorzdad at 8:59 AM on October 15, 2022 [10 favorites]
Why would an American audience react like that?
In addition to what everyone's said above, I can remember that at that time John Paul II was quite popular and not just with Catholics. As the first non-Italian pope in almost 500 years, he brought a feeling of change and youth and vibrancy to the office (the skiing pope!). But it wasn't just personal image, his many trips abroad earned him a reputation as a peacemaker and healer beyond the bounds of faith and nationality. The many later-proven allegations of child abuse in Ireland and elsewhere (including my own home province) that were coming to light at the time seemed to be more regarded as the fault of local authorities. It all had been going on for decades, surely the Pope couldn't have known about it! Sadly the mechanisms of the coverups reached all the way to the Vatican so he had to know the sort of shitstorm that was unfolding. Sinéad wasn't the first to realize it but maybe one of the most famous to start speaking out about it, thus serving as a lightning rod for the misdirected wave of shock, disbelief and fury that followed.
posted by hangashore at 9:16 AM on October 15, 2022 [38 favorites]
In addition to what everyone's said above, I can remember that at that time John Paul II was quite popular and not just with Catholics. As the first non-Italian pope in almost 500 years, he brought a feeling of change and youth and vibrancy to the office (the skiing pope!). But it wasn't just personal image, his many trips abroad earned him a reputation as a peacemaker and healer beyond the bounds of faith and nationality. The many later-proven allegations of child abuse in Ireland and elsewhere (including my own home province) that were coming to light at the time seemed to be more regarded as the fault of local authorities. It all had been going on for decades, surely the Pope couldn't have known about it! Sadly the mechanisms of the coverups reached all the way to the Vatican so he had to know the sort of shitstorm that was unfolding. Sinéad wasn't the first to realize it but maybe one of the most famous to start speaking out about it, thus serving as a lightning rod for the misdirected wave of shock, disbelief and fury that followed.
posted by hangashore at 9:16 AM on October 15, 2022 [38 favorites]
Absolutely and completely right and always has been.
posted by Artw at 9:17 AM on October 15, 2022 [15 favorites]
posted by Artw at 9:17 AM on October 15, 2022 [15 favorites]
He’s the pope that wanted the Communists out of Poland and Yugoslavia. So he promoted the “miracle” appearance of the Virgin Mary in Bosnia via the Medjugorje cult. He also brought Catholics into the US conservative fold, by ratcheting up anti-abortion rhetoric to draw together the traditionally opposed Southern Baptists and US Catholics behind Reagan.
You want to know what led to Roe being overturned….that piece of shit and his kiddy fiddler acolytes.
Yeah, I went to 12 years of Catholic school and was spoon fed that bullshit. Fuck that guy.
posted by Abehammerb Lincoln at 9:27 AM on October 15, 2022 [50 favorites]
You want to know what led to Roe being overturned….that piece of shit and his kiddy fiddler acolytes.
Yeah, I went to 12 years of Catholic school and was spoon fed that bullshit. Fuck that guy.
posted by Abehammerb Lincoln at 9:27 AM on October 15, 2022 [50 favorites]
Like a lot of my tastes from college, I started listening to I Do Not Want What I Haven't Got because of someone I was crushing on, but revisiting it more recently what a great album (or disc, back then). I always loved her voice.
posted by Gorgik at 9:27 AM on October 15, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by Gorgik at 9:27 AM on October 15, 2022 [2 favorites]
Joe Pesci hosted SNL the week after O'Connor tore up the pope picture. The crowd cheered when he said he would have slapped her had he been present. The 80s-90s were an ugly time, with a strong cultural backlash against anything resembling progressive or left politics, even among young liberals. Being anti-PC was very in.
I was a student in an all-male Catholic High School when this occurred (I'm not from a Catholic family, though). I didn't like or pay attention to O'Connor's music, but I thought tearing up the pope's picture was pretty cool, because fuck those old rich church bastards, right? And it's not like the subject of priests molesting children was some unheard-of allegation. The idea was widespread enough that it was a joke, including among my fellow students at school! So I didn't understand why 1) people in general thought it was terrible; and 2) my fellow students (primarily those raised Catholic), who all frequently made jokes about how Father So-and-So was a total grabby perv, got all pissed and defensive about it. Of course now I realize that it's a knee-jerk reaction to any threat against authority/patriarchy, particularly if you see yourself as a potential patriarch and/or loyal to one. My dad was Indian, was raised Sikh, generally didn't like the Catholic Church because of abuse from the Irish nuns at the school he went to, also knew and joked about the sexual perversity of priests -- but he thought she should be slapped around and arrested and all her records burned and blah blah blah, all the usual hateful toxic shit, simply because a threat to one man in power is a threat to all. Doesn't matter if she's right, doesn't matter if he's guilty; if he can face consequences, then the mob of evil scary women and minorities might come for YOU next! (cf. Trump et al)
posted by Saxon Kane at 9:29 AM on October 15, 2022 [51 favorites]
I was a student in an all-male Catholic High School when this occurred (I'm not from a Catholic family, though). I didn't like or pay attention to O'Connor's music, but I thought tearing up the pope's picture was pretty cool, because fuck those old rich church bastards, right? And it's not like the subject of priests molesting children was some unheard-of allegation. The idea was widespread enough that it was a joke, including among my fellow students at school! So I didn't understand why 1) people in general thought it was terrible; and 2) my fellow students (primarily those raised Catholic), who all frequently made jokes about how Father So-and-So was a total grabby perv, got all pissed and defensive about it. Of course now I realize that it's a knee-jerk reaction to any threat against authority/patriarchy, particularly if you see yourself as a potential patriarch and/or loyal to one. My dad was Indian, was raised Sikh, generally didn't like the Catholic Church because of abuse from the Irish nuns at the school he went to, also knew and joked about the sexual perversity of priests -- but he thought she should be slapped around and arrested and all her records burned and blah blah blah, all the usual hateful toxic shit, simply because a threat to one man in power is a threat to all. Doesn't matter if she's right, doesn't matter if he's guilty; if he can face consequences, then the mob of evil scary women and minorities might come for YOU next! (cf. Trump et al)
posted by Saxon Kane at 9:29 AM on October 15, 2022 [51 favorites]
Miraculously , the Pope himself was unharmed even though his picture was shredded.
posted by cccorlew at 9:34 AM on October 15, 2022 [24 favorites]
posted by cccorlew at 9:34 AM on October 15, 2022 [24 favorites]
I first posted this TWELVE (!) years ago, and several others have also linked to it over the years, but it's worth a repeat: Isn't Sinead O'Connor overdue a massive, grovelling apology from absolutely everybody?
posted by Saxon Kane at 9:38 AM on October 15, 2022 [39 favorites]
posted by Saxon Kane at 9:38 AM on October 15, 2022 [39 favorites]
Such visceral act of disrespect for the Pope at the time was an extremely unusual event in the western world. Especially since it was almost completely lacking in context for almost everybody. The Church's modern era misdoings were widely covered up and unknown except to the victims. So to most people, seeing her go on SNL and ripping up the Pope's picture was at the very least a big "WTF?" To me it was a shrug. To practicing Catholics, it was pretty offensive. I'm not sure an equally offensive gesture would be tolerated on Metafilter today without at least some explanation.
The reaction at the time is hardly surprising. That she was justified to be outraged may be some consolation to people who sympathize. Thirty years later, the anger makes sense.
posted by 2N2222 at 9:40 AM on October 15, 2022 [5 favorites]
The reaction at the time is hardly surprising. That she was justified to be outraged may be some consolation to people who sympathize. Thirty years later, the anger makes sense.
posted by 2N2222 at 9:40 AM on October 15, 2022 [5 favorites]
He also brought Catholics into the US conservative fold, by ratcheting up anti-abortion rhetoric to draw together the traditionally opposed Southern Baptists and US Catholics behind Reagan.
As a cardinal, he led a stealth contingent of other cardinals who banned the pill for Catholics. One could argue that he was the earth-ship captain who ran into the iceberg.
posted by Brian B. at 9:42 AM on October 15, 2022 [15 favorites]
As a cardinal, he led a stealth contingent of other cardinals who banned the pill for Catholics. One could argue that he was the earth-ship captain who ran into the iceberg.
posted by Brian B. at 9:42 AM on October 15, 2022 [15 favorites]
Zumbador: I guess I need to see the film to understand this. Why would an American audience react like that? I suppose she'd been vilified in the media after the Pope photo incident?
It’s a remarkable performance. I saw this on television when I was eleven and it really impacted me. I talked about this in a review I wrote of seeing her perform live in concert in 2011, and how relevant it was then and has continued to be:
posted by Kattullus at 9:44 AM on October 15, 2022 [30 favorites]
It’s a remarkable performance. I saw this on television when I was eleven and it really impacted me. I talked about this in a review I wrote of seeing her perform live in concert in 2011, and how relevant it was then and has continued to be:
No matter how often I see videos of Sinéad O’Connor in recent years the first image that comes to mind when I think of her is when she faced down a stadium full of people booing her at a Bob Dylan tribute concert. This was after she had ripped up a picture of Pope John Paul II in protest against child abuse aided and abetted by the Catholic Church. She came onstage to sing Dylan’s I Believe in You, but told the musicians to stop when it was clear that the booing was not stopping. So she shouted Bob Marley’s War. I was 11 years old when I watched it on television. I did not know much about Sinéad O’Connor, let alone how child abuse had been covered up by the Catholic Church. All I knew was that a young woman had faced down a host of jeering fools and come out on top. She embodied the exemplary artist, facing the idiocy of society and shouting the truth into the din of nonsense. It needs to be said, Sinéad O’Connor was right, and all the idiots who tried to shout her down were wrong. In fact, when I came home from the show to write my review, I checked a news-site and the top story was about a Catholic bishop in the US who had been indicted on charges of covering up child abuse.Sorry for that long self-quote, but it was really striking back then, and I wrote that review in the middle of the night for publication the next morning, that what she had taken a stand against in 1992 was still so current in 2011. And still is. Young women protesting the horrors perpetuated by society have always been the target of especial ire (witness the shit heaped on the two women who threw tomato soup at the protected-by-plastic painting) and O’Connor is still paying, reputationally, for having been completely, and totally, correct. But the media at the time wasn’t ready to think about what she was doing or saying. She was right, and society has spent three decades making her pay for it.
posted by Kattullus at 9:44 AM on October 15, 2022 [30 favorites]
The Church's modern era misdoings were widely covered up and unknown except to the victims.
I don't really remember the timeline of when the allegations started moving into general awareness. Maybe since I went to a Catholic school I was privy to insider knowledge about dirty laundry yet to be aired? I just remember that it seemed to me to be not a huge surprise since there had been at least some national news reports here and there on the topic, but maybe I've got my timelines mixed up.
posted by Saxon Kane at 9:46 AM on October 15, 2022 [3 favorites]
I don't really remember the timeline of when the allegations started moving into general awareness. Maybe since I went to a Catholic school I was privy to insider knowledge about dirty laundry yet to be aired? I just remember that it seemed to me to be not a huge surprise since there had been at least some national news reports here and there on the topic, but maybe I've got my timelines mixed up.
posted by Saxon Kane at 9:46 AM on October 15, 2022 [3 favorites]
There's lots of good O'Connor commentary in the 2010 thread about “Nothing Compares 2 U” at Tom Ewing's Popular. (I was part of it, but only one of many voices there.)
posted by rory at 9:55 AM on October 15, 2022
posted by rory at 9:55 AM on October 15, 2022
Also remember that O'Connor had been considered by many as a 'head case' almost as soon as she gained prominence a couple of years before with I Do Not Want What I Haven't Got (which is not an easy feel-good listen at all, and was never intended to be). Her appearance (remember "Skinhead O'Connor?") and attitude made her the butt of jokes among smug conformist pop-music types, plenty of snarky comments by shithead drive-time DJ bros about her needing to take dance lessons after the video for "The Emperor's New Clothes" came out. So when the SNL thing blew up there was plenty of exhausted annoyance from some quarters that this was just another case of Sinéad being Sinéad, would she just finally go the fuck away and leave us all alone.
posted by hangashore at 9:59 AM on October 15, 2022 [7 favorites]
posted by hangashore at 9:59 AM on October 15, 2022 [7 favorites]
Absolutely and completely right and always has been.
and to my ears, never really ceased doing what she was best at. Making the very most of a song.
posted by philip-random at 10:06 AM on October 15, 2022 [1 favorite]
She was right, and society has spent three decades making her pay for it.
No good deed goes unpunished.
posted by flabdablet at 10:06 AM on October 15, 2022 [7 favorites]
No good deed goes unpunished.
posted by flabdablet at 10:06 AM on October 15, 2022 [7 favorites]
Oh, and Kris Kristofferson fucking nailed it with My Sister Sinéad.
posted by hangashore at 10:08 AM on October 15, 2022 [17 favorites]
posted by hangashore at 10:08 AM on October 15, 2022 [17 favorites]
Her performance in San Francisco just before the pandemic roared over North America was incredible. I am not intimately familiar with her oeuvre — I really like her work but my chief exposure is through other members of the household and enjoying her early popular stuff at the time — and am generally aware of the story and pain she has shared. Nonetheless I was absolutely flattened by her through the entire night for far more than her gargantuan skill as a performer.
This recording of Nothing from that show understates the moment.
As a part of my own story having been able to see her then, as essentially my last foray into public, was a wonderful thing.
posted by majick at 10:11 AM on October 15, 2022 [4 favorites]
This recording of Nothing from that show understates the moment.
As a part of my own story having been able to see her then, as essentially my last foray into public, was a wonderful thing.
posted by majick at 10:11 AM on October 15, 2022 [4 favorites]
Like a lot of my tastes from college, I started listening to I Do Not Want What I Haven't Got because of someone I was crushing on
I had a one-night stand with a woman that played The Lion and the Cobra so I've always been fond of that album.
"I Want Your (Hands on Me)" is a bit on the nose, tho.
posted by kirkaracha at 10:13 AM on October 15, 2022 [2 favorites]
I had a one-night stand with a woman that played The Lion and the Cobra so I've always been fond of that album.
"I Want Your (Hands on Me)" is a bit on the nose, tho.
posted by kirkaracha at 10:13 AM on October 15, 2022 [2 favorites]
I didn't like or pay attention to O'Connor's music, but I thought tearing up the pope's picture was pretty cool, because fuck those old rich church bastards, right?
My own reaction at the time, exactly; although IIRC on SNL she didn't tear up a picture of the Pope (which implies to me, into little pieces), she just tore it in half. The negative reaction of the faithful to this was astonishing in its degree.
posted by Rash at 10:30 AM on October 15, 2022 [4 favorites]
My own reaction at the time, exactly; although IIRC on SNL she didn't tear up a picture of the Pope (which implies to me, into little pieces), she just tore it in half. The negative reaction of the faithful to this was astonishing in its degree.
posted by Rash at 10:30 AM on October 15, 2022 [4 favorites]
I don't really remember the timeline of when the allegations started moving into general awareness. Maybe since I went to a Catholic school I was privy to insider knowledge about dirty laundry yet to be aired? I just remember that it seemed to me to be not a huge surprise since there had been at least some national news reports here and there on the topic, but maybe I've got my timelines mixed up.
Prior to the late 1990s, reporting seems to have been mostly regional, when it happened at all. Abuses were usually settled with hush money. Which usually kept it out of the public eye, except for the rare occasion incidents became criminal investigations/prosecutions. During the late 90s, knowledge of sexual abuse and the cover ups was hitting critical mass. By the early 2000s, prevalence of incidence/cover up was becoming big national news.
I tend to think this is one of the areas where people have the luxury of making judgments with many years hindsight. I grew up very much in the Church. I went to a High School seminary here in L.A. (San Fernando) and subsequently for a short time to the archdiocese's college seminary in Camarillo. Which is a whole bizarre story in and of itself. I knew many priests who were downright weirdos. Some taught me. Some went on to be ordained. Some went to jail. There were always mutterings about such and such was sent to that desert place for reforming or to be a military chaplain because of their predilection for improprieties of some type. Not to mention the conflation of sexual predator with homosexuality. And if you hear stories from older generations, you'll get that sexual abuse goes back much further, and was known. But the big revolution took place in the early 2000s, when it became so widely reported, and more importantly, widely disapproved of among Catholics themselves.
posted by 2N2222 at 10:38 AM on October 15, 2022 [11 favorites]
Prior to the late 1990s, reporting seems to have been mostly regional, when it happened at all. Abuses were usually settled with hush money. Which usually kept it out of the public eye, except for the rare occasion incidents became criminal investigations/prosecutions. During the late 90s, knowledge of sexual abuse and the cover ups was hitting critical mass. By the early 2000s, prevalence of incidence/cover up was becoming big national news.
I tend to think this is one of the areas where people have the luxury of making judgments with many years hindsight. I grew up very much in the Church. I went to a High School seminary here in L.A. (San Fernando) and subsequently for a short time to the archdiocese's college seminary in Camarillo. Which is a whole bizarre story in and of itself. I knew many priests who were downright weirdos. Some taught me. Some went on to be ordained. Some went to jail. There were always mutterings about such and such was sent to that desert place for reforming or to be a military chaplain because of their predilection for improprieties of some type. Not to mention the conflation of sexual predator with homosexuality. And if you hear stories from older generations, you'll get that sexual abuse goes back much further, and was known. But the big revolution took place in the early 2000s, when it became so widely reported, and more importantly, widely disapproved of among Catholics themselves.
posted by 2N2222 at 10:38 AM on October 15, 2022 [11 favorites]
you'll get that sexual abuse goes back much further, and was known.
Name a time in history when sexual abuse wasn't part of -- hell, a fundamental component of -- organized religion.
posted by Saxon Kane at 11:03 AM on October 15, 2022 [5 favorites]
Name a time in history when sexual abuse wasn't part of -- hell, a fundamental component of -- organized religion.
posted by Saxon Kane at 11:03 AM on October 15, 2022 [5 favorites]
Your reminder that, for all that SNL has often pretended to be daring and dangerous, Lorne Michaels banned Elvis Costello for years for playing "Radio Radio" on the show, and that O'Connor had previously canceled an appearance on the show so that she wouldn't be the musical guest for host Andrew Dice Clay.
posted by Halloween Jack at 11:10 AM on October 15, 2022 [18 favorites]
posted by Halloween Jack at 11:10 AM on October 15, 2022 [18 favorites]
Name a time in history when sexual abuse wasn't part of -- hell, a fundamental component of -- organized religion.
Name a time in history when sexual abuse wasn't part of -- hell, a fundamental component of -- humanity.
Top that.
Point here is that the tipping point in modern times wasn't really reached until the early 2000s. O'Connor's thing would have looked just kind of wacky unless you had a serious beef with the Pope, or Catholics in general.
posted by 2N2222 at 11:43 AM on October 15, 2022 [2 favorites]
Name a time in history when sexual abuse wasn't part of -- hell, a fundamental component of -- humanity.
Top that.
Point here is that the tipping point in modern times wasn't really reached until the early 2000s. O'Connor's thing would have looked just kind of wacky unless you had a serious beef with the Pope, or Catholics in general.
posted by 2N2222 at 11:43 AM on October 15, 2022 [2 favorites]
She was not only right, she was more right than she or any of us really knew at the time (or for the most part seem to know, still?). The breadth and general pervasiveness of sexual abuse by clergy in the Church is really kind of staggering; I knew my maternal grandfather's family were Catholic, but when I went to look at the database of accused clergy, I was not as many relatives as I did.
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 11:46 AM on October 15, 2022 [6 favorites]
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 11:46 AM on October 15, 2022 [6 favorites]
When she tore up the picture I wasn't aware of the child abuse, though I was in pretty close proximity to one of Chile's most notorious child-abusing priests for a few years.
But JP2 had made a point of coming to Chile so he could be photographed and filmed shaking hands with Pinochet on the presidential palace's balcony, because something-something Communism, which the dictator used in his propaganda from then on.
So I was happy when Sinéad tore up the pic and I was happy when the fucker finally kicked the bucket.
She wasn't just right, she was RIGHT.
posted by signal at 12:06 PM on October 15, 2022 [11 favorites]
But JP2 had made a point of coming to Chile so he could be photographed and filmed shaking hands with Pinochet on the presidential palace's balcony, because something-something Communism, which the dictator used in his propaganda from then on.
So I was happy when Sinéad tore up the pic and I was happy when the fucker finally kicked the bucket.
She wasn't just right, she was RIGHT.
posted by signal at 12:06 PM on October 15, 2022 [11 favorites]
she was more right than she or any of us really knew at the time
I'm inclined to disagree. It was a widely known open secret. "Catholic priest = pedophile" was fairly standard punchline or assumed detail in jokes, the sort that start with, "A priest, a rabbi and..."
Her crime wasn't making wild allegations against the Pope. It was in exposing to the wider world what every Catholic already knew and was ashamed of.
posted by explosion at 12:08 PM on October 15, 2022 [6 favorites]
I'm inclined to disagree. It was a widely known open secret. "Catholic priest = pedophile" was fairly standard punchline or assumed detail in jokes, the sort that start with, "A priest, a rabbi and..."
Her crime wasn't making wild allegations against the Pope. It was in exposing to the wider world what every Catholic already knew and was ashamed of.
posted by explosion at 12:08 PM on October 15, 2022 [6 favorites]
She was an astonishingly beautiful woman who shaved her head, and it may be hard to believe, but a LOT of men were extremely offended that she did not pander to their idea of how women should look and behave.
Actually nowadays it's the same dudes online who CAN NOT deal with women who dye their hair blue. Or are fat without apology. Such a trivial thing! But it really really bothers them.
posted by emjaybee at 12:10 PM on October 15, 2022 [43 favorites]
Actually nowadays it's the same dudes online who CAN NOT deal with women who dye their hair blue. Or are fat without apology. Such a trivial thing! But it really really bothers them.
posted by emjaybee at 12:10 PM on October 15, 2022 [43 favorites]
She had a famously difficult relationship with her very religious mother. From her autobiography Rememberings, after her mother died:
I took down from her bedroom wall the only photo she ever had up there, which was of Pope John Paul II. It was taken when he visited Ireland in 1979. “Young people of Ireland,” he had said after making a show of kissing the ground at Dublin airport like the flight had been overly frightening, “I love you.” What a load of claptrap. Nobody loved us. Not even God. Sure, even our mothers and fathers couldn’t stand us.
My intention had always been to destroy my mother’s photo of the pope. It represented lies and liars and abuse. The type of people who kept these things were devils like my mother. I never knew when or where or how I would destroy it, but destroy it I would when the right moment came. And with that in mind, I carefully brought it everywhere I lived from that day forward. Because nobody ever gave a shit about the children of Ireland.
posted by thatwhichfalls at 12:32 PM on October 15, 2022 [31 favorites]
I took down from her bedroom wall the only photo she ever had up there, which was of Pope John Paul II. It was taken when he visited Ireland in 1979. “Young people of Ireland,” he had said after making a show of kissing the ground at Dublin airport like the flight had been overly frightening, “I love you.” What a load of claptrap. Nobody loved us. Not even God. Sure, even our mothers and fathers couldn’t stand us.
My intention had always been to destroy my mother’s photo of the pope. It represented lies and liars and abuse. The type of people who kept these things were devils like my mother. I never knew when or where or how I would destroy it, but destroy it I would when the right moment came. And with that in mind, I carefully brought it everywhere I lived from that day forward. Because nobody ever gave a shit about the children of Ireland.
posted by thatwhichfalls at 12:32 PM on October 15, 2022 [31 favorites]
I'm inclined to disagree. It was a widely known open secret. "Catholic priest = pedophile" was fairly standard punchline or assumed detail in jokes, the sort that start with, "A priest, a rabbi and..."
Her crime wasn't making wild allegations against the Pope. It was in exposing to the wider world what every Catholic already knew and was ashamed of.
The full extent was certainly not known and once it was actually unavoidably known by the mid 2000s the Catholic Church in Ireland had a big membership crisis on hand with numbers plummeting. Ireland secularized and allowed gay marriage and abortion. That tectonic shift probably started with Sinead O'Connor saying the unsayable out loud in a way that nobody could hide from it.
So your inclination to minimize just how big a moment Sinead's act was is really very odd. She directly accused the Pope of complicity in a horrific sin on major broadcast American TV. It was a bombshell.
I suspect also you don't realize what jokes do as well. Racists joke about being racist all the time. Laughing at the priests who abuse children just normalizes it and tells the victims that their suffering is comedic fodder.
posted by srboisvert at 12:41 PM on October 15, 2022 [15 favorites]
Her crime wasn't making wild allegations against the Pope. It was in exposing to the wider world what every Catholic already knew and was ashamed of.
The full extent was certainly not known and once it was actually unavoidably known by the mid 2000s the Catholic Church in Ireland had a big membership crisis on hand with numbers plummeting. Ireland secularized and allowed gay marriage and abortion. That tectonic shift probably started with Sinead O'Connor saying the unsayable out loud in a way that nobody could hide from it.
So your inclination to minimize just how big a moment Sinead's act was is really very odd. She directly accused the Pope of complicity in a horrific sin on major broadcast American TV. It was a bombshell.
I suspect also you don't realize what jokes do as well. Racists joke about being racist all the time. Laughing at the priests who abuse children just normalizes it and tells the victims that their suffering is comedic fodder.
posted by srboisvert at 12:41 PM on October 15, 2022 [15 favorites]
The first time I saw you
Standing in the street
You were so cool you could have
Put out Vietnam
posted by oldnumberseven at 12:58 PM on October 15, 2022 [1 favorite]
Standing in the street
You were so cool you could have
Put out Vietnam
posted by oldnumberseven at 12:58 PM on October 15, 2022 [1 favorite]
The full extent was certainly not knownMy memories align with yours. There were a few isolated exposures of individual cases of abuse that were publicized and there were certainly jokes, but the extent to which the Catholic church has systematically covered it up and the extent to which abuse was widespread was shocking to most in the 2000s and only really began to be exposed in the mid-90s.
I don't recall ever hearing about the concept of tone policing until much later, but this was an extreme example of the concept. Middle America had a strong sense that it was inappropriate for artists to express political opinions, especially not on national television. Think of Sacheen Littlefeather or Venessa Redgrave at the Oscars. If there had been widespread opinion polling on O'Connor's SNL appearance, I'd bet it would shown 90% or more of the American public were opposed. The Reagan era was a very depressing time to be a young liberal!
posted by Lame_username at 1:04 PM on October 15, 2022 [4 favorites]
So your inclination to minimize just how big a moment Sinead's act was is really very odd.
I'm not at all minimizing it. It was a huge cost to herself.
But "we didn't know" is the papering-over of history and complicity, and we should not allow it to happen. Post WW2, Germans claimed they didn't know what was going on. People say they didn't know cops were abusive til Rodney King, or even George Floyd, even though the impact communities have always known.
There's a cottage industry right now in gaslighting American citizens about how we didn't know that the government was lying to us about the Iraq War and working to rehabilitate the image of Republicans like George W. Bush. But, of course, we did know back then, and the Dixie Chicks paid the price for telling the truth.
No, maybe we did not know the full extent of it, but no, I don't think we should give people a pass about how we didn't know. It was known. We can applaud Sinead O'Connor's bravery without lending plausible deniability to members of the community.
posted by explosion at 1:05 PM on October 15, 2022 [16 favorites]
I'm not at all minimizing it. It was a huge cost to herself.
But "we didn't know" is the papering-over of history and complicity, and we should not allow it to happen. Post WW2, Germans claimed they didn't know what was going on. People say they didn't know cops were abusive til Rodney King, or even George Floyd, even though the impact communities have always known.
There's a cottage industry right now in gaslighting American citizens about how we didn't know that the government was lying to us about the Iraq War and working to rehabilitate the image of Republicans like George W. Bush. But, of course, we did know back then, and the Dixie Chicks paid the price for telling the truth.
No, maybe we did not know the full extent of it, but no, I don't think we should give people a pass about how we didn't know. It was known. We can applaud Sinead O'Connor's bravery without lending plausible deniability to members of the community.
posted by explosion at 1:05 PM on October 15, 2022 [16 favorites]
I was in NYC, at Halloween time, which must have been relatively soon after the picture tearing incident. At the Halloween parade in the Village, this guy in a full on pope suit kept walking up and down in front of where we were standing, tearing up xeroxed pictures of Ms O’Connor. The general reaction was just laughter. I’m not sure if this laughter was pro or con the original picture tearing. I agreed with her sentiment and assumed that maybe this “pope” was satire.
posted by njohnson23 at 1:07 PM on October 15, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by njohnson23 at 1:07 PM on October 15, 2022 [2 favorites]
After her mothers death, she and two siblings went into her home. That photo of the pope was on the wall in her mothers bedroom, she loathed it because it represented to her many things about her mothers character that were repellent. She carried that image around with her, knowing she was going to use it in her work but not knowing when. Her tearing that picture up was a protest against her mother, a protest against the pope, a protest against the pain and confusion that children live also.
I think that I've read that the tears on her face in that beautiful take on that song ware tears of love for her mother.
I watched it an hour ago, first time in years. It really is a beautiful take.
The standard line is that tearing that image up killed her career; she says it was a great thing for her career. Because she didn't like being a pop star, she didn't want to be a good girl, a safe act, and everybody clapping nicely before going to commercial break. She saw herself as an artist with things to say, statements to make, and that is how she lived her life, as best she was able.
I am annoyed in about 17 different ways that Picasso spent at least 1/3 of his creative juices painting half of a violin coming out of a cows eye, or whatever other jive he put on canvas. Having seen what that man was capable of, I'm annoyed that he didn't give more beauty that my eyes can see; I really did try but violins coming out of cows heads just never has blown my skirt up.
She's followed her arc. She's not "safe." She's not a pop star; she's an artist. Her life cannot have been easy, easy was not a road she was interested in walking. She's looped the loop a few times -- so did John Lennon. So what? I've looped the loop a few times myself; because I don't have a camera pointed at me all day every day no one knows about it, god be thanked.
posted by dancestoblue at 1:13 PM on October 15, 2022 [11 favorites]
I think that I've read that the tears on her face in that beautiful take on that song ware tears of love for her mother.
I watched it an hour ago, first time in years. It really is a beautiful take.
The standard line is that tearing that image up killed her career; she says it was a great thing for her career. Because she didn't like being a pop star, she didn't want to be a good girl, a safe act, and everybody clapping nicely before going to commercial break. She saw herself as an artist with things to say, statements to make, and that is how she lived her life, as best she was able.
I am annoyed in about 17 different ways that Picasso spent at least 1/3 of his creative juices painting half of a violin coming out of a cows eye, or whatever other jive he put on canvas. Having seen what that man was capable of, I'm annoyed that he didn't give more beauty that my eyes can see; I really did try but violins coming out of cows heads just never has blown my skirt up.
She's followed her arc. She's not "safe." She's not a pop star; she's an artist. Her life cannot have been easy, easy was not a road she was interested in walking. She's looped the loop a few times -- so did John Lennon. So what? I've looped the loop a few times myself; because I don't have a camera pointed at me all day every day no one knows about it, god be thanked.
posted by dancestoblue at 1:13 PM on October 15, 2022 [11 favorites]
I was maybe 12 when this happened…I remember my parents thinking that she was maybe a little yucky because of her shaved head, but definitely not wrong. My friends and I thought she was the coolest, and while I seem to recall her having what I’d consider Wrong Opinions since, I overall think she’s the coolest and must be protected better than the world is doing.
posted by chesty_a_arthur at 1:25 PM on October 15, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by chesty_a_arthur at 1:25 PM on October 15, 2022 [2 favorites]
I wonder how many of those people who booed her, who refused to buy her albums, or worse, refused to put her music on air, now years later complain about the scourge of "cancel culture?"
posted by caddis at 1:32 PM on October 15, 2022 [25 favorites]
posted by caddis at 1:32 PM on October 15, 2022 [25 favorites]
It was a widely known open secret. "Catholic priest = pedophile" was fairly standard punchline or assumed detail in jokes, the sort that start with, "A priest, a rabbi and..."
...I've never heard any "a priest, a rabbi, and..." joke that had pedophilia as the punch line. In fact, the implication was more so that the priest was a drunk (because "Irish" or something).
And this wasn't exactly a widely known secret in the early 1990s. Maybe in an individual town you heard about a single incident, but that was easy to just write off as "it's just that one bad apple". And part of the reason why is because the higher-ups in the church dealt with the priest from that one isolated incident by sending him into therapy for a year or so....and then moving him to another town and asking him not to do that again, pretty please. And when he did it again, they would move him again and say "okay, we're gonna ask you again, don't do that...." and when he did it again, then....
Knowing that Father Corrigan from two towns over was caught with an altar boy and then sent away is one thing - knowing that Bishop Masterson dealt with it by sending Father Corrigan to another state where he just did it again, and knowing that the whole reason Father Corrigan was even IN town was because he'd been caught doing it before, is something else again. Sinead O'Connor was pointing her finger at Bishop Masterson more so than Father Corrigan.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 2:52 PM on October 15, 2022 [9 favorites]
...I've never heard any "a priest, a rabbi, and..." joke that had pedophilia as the punch line. In fact, the implication was more so that the priest was a drunk (because "Irish" or something).
And this wasn't exactly a widely known secret in the early 1990s. Maybe in an individual town you heard about a single incident, but that was easy to just write off as "it's just that one bad apple". And part of the reason why is because the higher-ups in the church dealt with the priest from that one isolated incident by sending him into therapy for a year or so....and then moving him to another town and asking him not to do that again, pretty please. And when he did it again, they would move him again and say "okay, we're gonna ask you again, don't do that...." and when he did it again, then....
Knowing that Father Corrigan from two towns over was caught with an altar boy and then sent away is one thing - knowing that Bishop Masterson dealt with it by sending Father Corrigan to another state where he just did it again, and knowing that the whole reason Father Corrigan was even IN town was because he'd been caught doing it before, is something else again. Sinead O'Connor was pointing her finger at Bishop Masterson more so than Father Corrigan.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 2:52 PM on October 15, 2022 [9 favorites]
She was always right. I've watched her back-and-forth with religion for years (she joined a splinter branch of the Catholic church that ordained women for a while and now I think she's a practicing Muslim) and it's clear to me that she's seeking something that she's not finding. I feel like there's a direct relationship between what she's looking for and the facade of the Catholic church that she broke by ripping up that photograph of the Pope.
posted by gentlyepigrams at 4:10 PM on October 15, 2022
posted by gentlyepigrams at 4:10 PM on October 15, 2022
Another student from Catholic Boys' School, here to say, I thought tearing up the pope's picture was pretty cool. They published the crimes of the priest who would take us out for pizza, like, three years ago.
Thanks, big sister Sinead
posted by eustatic at 8:45 PM on October 15, 2022 [11 favorites]
Thanks, big sister Sinead
posted by eustatic at 8:45 PM on October 15, 2022 [11 favorites]
I don't really remember the timeline of when the allegations started moving into general awareness.
The Boston Globe’s reporting in 2002 brought the sexual abuse of minors by Catholic clergy into national spotlight in the US.
posted by LooseFilter at 10:25 PM on October 15, 2022 [9 favorites]
The Boston Globe’s reporting in 2002 brought the sexual abuse of minors by Catholic clergy into national spotlight in the US.
posted by LooseFilter at 10:25 PM on October 15, 2022 [9 favorites]
How do you get a nun pregnant?
Dress her up like an altar boy.
I remember that ”joke” from when I was a kid. I will also say I never met a priest growing up who tried anything weird or sexual with me. As a result, I don’t fully grok how it would happen. As a result, I compartmentalized the abuse as something that was a)extremely rare, b)always happened somewhere else and c)if it did happen here, the local bishop would of course handle it swiftly and appropriately
I now see and understand these rationalizations were wrong but that understanding took years to develop. Even when I first rejected Catholicism and declared I was an atheist, I would have said JPII seemed to be a pretty good guy. The idea that the pope would know about and cover up endemic abuse within the church was completely counter to how I understood the world to work. Catholics are trained to see the pope in a good light — they are members of a church that works for good in the world and the pope, as its leader, is the ultimate do-gooder.
I was 15 when Sinead tore the picture and I remember seeing it on SNL. It was a big WTF? moment for me because I perceived Sinead’s criticisms to be properly directed at the church in Ireland, not the pope.
Of course, time has proven Sinead to be correct. The church in Rome was best equipped to understand the extent of the problem in and did not do the work needed to protect the members — they prioritized the institution, instead.
posted by Big Al 8000 at 7:31 AM on October 16, 2022 [3 favorites]
Dress her up like an altar boy.
I remember that ”joke” from when I was a kid. I will also say I never met a priest growing up who tried anything weird or sexual with me. As a result, I don’t fully grok how it would happen. As a result, I compartmentalized the abuse as something that was a)extremely rare, b)always happened somewhere else and c)if it did happen here, the local bishop would of course handle it swiftly and appropriately
I now see and understand these rationalizations were wrong but that understanding took years to develop. Even when I first rejected Catholicism and declared I was an atheist, I would have said JPII seemed to be a pretty good guy. The idea that the pope would know about and cover up endemic abuse within the church was completely counter to how I understood the world to work. Catholics are trained to see the pope in a good light — they are members of a church that works for good in the world and the pope, as its leader, is the ultimate do-gooder.
I was 15 when Sinead tore the picture and I remember seeing it on SNL. It was a big WTF? moment for me because I perceived Sinead’s criticisms to be properly directed at the church in Ireland, not the pope.
Of course, time has proven Sinead to be correct. The church in Rome was best equipped to understand the extent of the problem in and did not do the work needed to protect the members — they prioritized the institution, instead.
posted by Big Al 8000 at 7:31 AM on October 16, 2022 [3 favorites]
No, maybe we did not know the full extent of it, but no, I don't think we should give people a pass about how we didn't know. It was known.
It really, really wasn't. The Boston Globe reporting linked above was considered a bombshell for a reason.
She was an astonishingly beautiful woman who shaved her head, and it may be hard to believe, but a LOT of men were extremely offended that she did not pander to their idea of how women should look and behave.
She's still getting shit for having the audacity to age. There were a lot of awful comments about her appearance after this lovely article.
She seemed at peace in that article, which is something she hasn't had much of. Then a year later her son died by suicide. My heart breaks for her.
She's an extraordinary woman and an extraordinary talent.
posted by Mavri at 8:40 AM on October 16, 2022 [3 favorites]
It really, really wasn't. The Boston Globe reporting linked above was considered a bombshell for a reason.
She was an astonishingly beautiful woman who shaved her head, and it may be hard to believe, but a LOT of men were extremely offended that she did not pander to their idea of how women should look and behave.
She's still getting shit for having the audacity to age. There were a lot of awful comments about her appearance after this lovely article.
She seemed at peace in that article, which is something she hasn't had much of. Then a year later her son died by suicide. My heart breaks for her.
She's an extraordinary woman and an extraordinary talent.
posted by Mavri at 8:40 AM on October 16, 2022 [3 favorites]
i mandela effected myself into thinking she made punk rock instead of 80s pop music. i revisited it a an adult and was so confused because i expected the sex pistols or whatever because in my mind she represented righteous rebellion.
Such a myopic, phallocentric, rockist view of music history, as if music just stopped developing in 1976. Most of my social circle was punkish when Sinead broke big. But her music was what appealed to all the non-male, non-straight, non-white folks in our group -- specifically the somewhat overwrought song Troy was our favorite, we were in the throws of puberty so cut us some slack. And believe it or not we were a pretty diverse group considering this was in South Carolina in the 1980's.
posted by viborg at 8:47 AM on October 16, 2022 [4 favorites]
Such a myopic, phallocentric, rockist view of music history, as if music just stopped developing in 1976. Most of my social circle was punkish when Sinead broke big. But her music was what appealed to all the non-male, non-straight, non-white folks in our group -- specifically the somewhat overwrought song Troy was our favorite, we were in the throws of puberty so cut us some slack. And believe it or not we were a pretty diverse group considering this was in South Carolina in the 1980's.
posted by viborg at 8:47 AM on October 16, 2022 [4 favorites]
I mean Jah Wobble played bass on I Do Not Want What I Haven't Got, that should count for even phallocentric rockist cred. Ok I am not going to fixate on this today lmao.
posted by viborg at 8:56 AM on October 16, 2022
posted by viborg at 8:56 AM on October 16, 2022
Such a myopic, phallocentric, rockist view of music history
I mean, I was 9 years old and only saw news coverage of the pope picture incident... She seemed pretty punk. Incidentally, this article based on an interview with O'Connor says: "O’Connor saw herself as a protest-singing punk.". I saw her that way too, despite never having heard the music.
posted by dis_integration at 9:03 AM on October 16, 2022
I mean, I was 9 years old and only saw news coverage of the pope picture incident... She seemed pretty punk. Incidentally, this article based on an interview with O'Connor says: "O’Connor saw herself as a protest-singing punk.". I saw her that way too, despite never having heard the music.
posted by dis_integration at 9:03 AM on October 16, 2022
Blocked by paywall. But yes she was influenced by punk, just as much of the music you dismiss as "pop" was influenced by punk too.
I mean, I was 9 years old...
[previously]
i revisited it a an adult and was so confused because i expected the sex pistols or whatever because in my mind she represented righteous rebellion.
But sure if most of your understanding of music comes from the New York Times that makes sense. It may be worth digging a little more into the basis of those assumptions tho:
I mean, I was 9 years old...
[previously]
i revisited it a an adult and was so confused because i expected the sex pistols or whatever because in my mind she represented righteous rebellion.
But sure if most of your understanding of music comes from the New York Times that makes sense. It may be worth digging a little more into the basis of those assumptions tho:
McLaren always maintained that the Pistols appeal was nothing to do with the music (and some of their detractors agreed) – it was about image and outrage.posted by viborg at 9:11 AM on October 16, 2022 [2 favorites]
And thanks again to kliuless for letting us know about the documentary. I watched it last night (it's on Showtime in the U.S., I saw it via the Crave streaming service here in Canada, hopefully it's available in plenty of other places). Some very frank and painful descriptions of abuses that happened to Sinéad herself and other things she witnessed. And plenty of lead-in and context for the New Jersey/national anthem controversy and the SNL/Dylan concert (now 30 years ago this weekend) incident/backlash/media savagery (or as one interviewee put it, if you're booing Sinéad O'Connor, what the hell are you doing at a Dylan tribute?). But most importantly, the main focus is upon Sinéad telling her own story in her own words, both at the time when she was in the spotlight and now, reflecting on those days and where she finds herself in the present day.
posted by hangashore at 9:25 AM on October 16, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by hangashore at 9:25 AM on October 16, 2022 [2 favorites]
(Here's a song by some of the Sex Pistols' contemporaries, and here's Sinead O'Connor's first video.)
posted by box at 9:25 AM on October 16, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by box at 9:25 AM on October 16, 2022 [2 favorites]
and while we're at it -- here's my first ever encounter with Sinead O'Connor, which preceded her first solo album/singles ...
Heroine
Co-written with U2's The Edge and showing up on the soundtrack (credited to Edge) to a film called Captive.
posted by philip-random at 10:24 AM on October 16, 2022 [3 favorites]
Heroine
Co-written with U2's The Edge and showing up on the soundtrack (credited to Edge) to a film called Captive.
posted by philip-random at 10:24 AM on October 16, 2022 [3 favorites]
I was an altar boy under (not literally) this priest for three years
When Bishop Mahoney was announced as the Bishop of Stockton, it was already known that he was a politician and had bigger fish to fry.
By the time she ripped the picture in 1993, I was off the slag heap of Catholic bullsh*t. I only heard of what she did on SNL. I thought it was brilliant...still not knowing the extent of pedophilia within the church.
In 2005, I heard of what went on with O'Grady, Mahoney and the Stockton Diocese. I wanted to scream at my parents and say "See, this is why I left the church".
If my experience is any mirror, I have some understanding of her leaning back into the Catholic outlaw sect and Islam. The feeling of being unmoored is sometimes brutal. We blame ourselves for our own depression and predicament. Maybe a structure that doesn't allow us to stray will set us straight. Keep us on the path and give us succor, comfort and direction. That attraction is very strong. I've struggled with it ever since I've "left" the church.
When I was 11, I had a mystical Catholic dream that involved (as Catholics term her) The Blessed Virgin Mary. I am sure Sinead has also. The feeling of protection and safety is profound, so contrary to what we are experiencing in our outside world. So wanting others to have this experience. It was the only time in my life that I sincerely wanted to pray. We come back and feel even more alone. Then the feeling of the experience begins to flood away. At that age, we can only think, "Please don't leave" In a weird way we come back as a warriors unable to stop fighting and, in our quiet times, only wanting succor. I find myself saying that I want to "see God again"
I am 59 yo. I've recently gone back to school to pick a masters in Psychology. The school is known for being a hot-bed of post-modern psychology. What I am seeing in the school and a multitude of the schools teachers is not much different than what I saw in the Catholic Church. I've been in school for two quarters. At the end of the quarter, I began having panic attacks. Last week, I had 3-4 of them. I told a therapist last week saying that I want to learn and to make new friends...and I see the similarities and the indoctrination...how therapists will be going out into the world hurting more than they help...and I'm back to feeling alone again.
I spoke with a friend soon after her son committed suicide. We both thought immediately that "she's not going to make it"
I wish people would just leave her alone.
Re; the Madison Square Garden event, I don't know what "being a man" is but Kris Kristofferson sure seems like one
posted by goalyeehah at 10:35 AM on October 16, 2022 [10 favorites]
When Bishop Mahoney was announced as the Bishop of Stockton, it was already known that he was a politician and had bigger fish to fry.
By the time she ripped the picture in 1993, I was off the slag heap of Catholic bullsh*t. I only heard of what she did on SNL. I thought it was brilliant...still not knowing the extent of pedophilia within the church.
In 2005, I heard of what went on with O'Grady, Mahoney and the Stockton Diocese. I wanted to scream at my parents and say "See, this is why I left the church".
If my experience is any mirror, I have some understanding of her leaning back into the Catholic outlaw sect and Islam. The feeling of being unmoored is sometimes brutal. We blame ourselves for our own depression and predicament. Maybe a structure that doesn't allow us to stray will set us straight. Keep us on the path and give us succor, comfort and direction. That attraction is very strong. I've struggled with it ever since I've "left" the church.
When I was 11, I had a mystical Catholic dream that involved (as Catholics term her) The Blessed Virgin Mary. I am sure Sinead has also. The feeling of protection and safety is profound, so contrary to what we are experiencing in our outside world. So wanting others to have this experience. It was the only time in my life that I sincerely wanted to pray. We come back and feel even more alone. Then the feeling of the experience begins to flood away. At that age, we can only think, "Please don't leave" In a weird way we come back as a warriors unable to stop fighting and, in our quiet times, only wanting succor. I find myself saying that I want to "see God again"
I am 59 yo. I've recently gone back to school to pick a masters in Psychology. The school is known for being a hot-bed of post-modern psychology. What I am seeing in the school and a multitude of the schools teachers is not much different than what I saw in the Catholic Church. I've been in school for two quarters. At the end of the quarter, I began having panic attacks. Last week, I had 3-4 of them. I told a therapist last week saying that I want to learn and to make new friends...and I see the similarities and the indoctrination...how therapists will be going out into the world hurting more than they help...and I'm back to feeling alone again.
I spoke with a friend soon after her son committed suicide. We both thought immediately that "she's not going to make it"
I wish people would just leave her alone.
Re; the Madison Square Garden event, I don't know what "being a man" is but Kris Kristofferson sure seems like one
posted by goalyeehah at 10:35 AM on October 16, 2022 [10 favorites]
She was an astonishingly beautiful woman who shaved her head,
that is a great deal of it. it really doesn't sound real to people who weren't there or who were but forgot.
and the several attempts above to reconstruct a unified ideological explanation for middle-american anti-sinead sentiment in bygone decades, when fully 40-60 percent of it, pre-pope and post-pope alike, was because she'd shaved her head
and was beautiful and young, which took it from merely outrageous to absolutely terrifying in the way of a dark religious mystery, in the minds of many - unforgivable because inexplicable
boy it'd make you laugh if it didn't make you cry
I want to be happy at how completely most people have forgotten what it was like at the time, because it would be nice to pretend that meant it was different now. but it isn't very different now. people just forget things.
all these now-popular rolling vindications of slandered women from all walks of politics and art and public life (anna nicole smith, britney spears, anita hill, monica lewinsky, sinead o'connor, who has come up for at least three of these grand re-evaluation periods in my adult life) - I'm glad for the women who are lucky enough to still be alive when the groveling apology winds begin to blow their way, or I try to be. and a serious documentary is a different animal from just another content-mill thinkpiece, for sure. but more and more, as the revisionist revisitation project has become so institutionalized, it feels like public repentance is just the final stage of public persecution. less an atonement for it than an equally enjoyable season of it.
posted by queenofbithynia at 7:11 PM on October 16, 2022 [13 favorites]
that is a great deal of it. it really doesn't sound real to people who weren't there or who were but forgot.
and the several attempts above to reconstruct a unified ideological explanation for middle-american anti-sinead sentiment in bygone decades, when fully 40-60 percent of it, pre-pope and post-pope alike, was because she'd shaved her head
and was beautiful and young, which took it from merely outrageous to absolutely terrifying in the way of a dark religious mystery, in the minds of many - unforgivable because inexplicable
boy it'd make you laugh if it didn't make you cry
I want to be happy at how completely most people have forgotten what it was like at the time, because it would be nice to pretend that meant it was different now. but it isn't very different now. people just forget things.
all these now-popular rolling vindications of slandered women from all walks of politics and art and public life (anna nicole smith, britney spears, anita hill, monica lewinsky, sinead o'connor, who has come up for at least three of these grand re-evaluation periods in my adult life) - I'm glad for the women who are lucky enough to still be alive when the groveling apology winds begin to blow their way, or I try to be. and a serious documentary is a different animal from just another content-mill thinkpiece, for sure. but more and more, as the revisionist revisitation project has become so institutionalized, it feels like public repentance is just the final stage of public persecution. less an atonement for it than an equally enjoyable season of it.
posted by queenofbithynia at 7:11 PM on October 16, 2022 [13 favorites]
The only apology is justice. Everything else is PR.
posted by majick at 7:46 PM on October 16, 2022 [3 favorites]
posted by majick at 7:46 PM on October 16, 2022 [3 favorites]
when fully 40-60 percent of it, pre-pope and post-pope alike, was because she'd shaved her head
This was my memory of that time. I wasn't even aware of the pope photo. If you'd asked me, before reading this article, why people turned against Sinnead O'Connor, I would have said "because she shaved her head".
posted by Zumbador at 8:53 PM on October 16, 2022
This was my memory of that time. I wasn't even aware of the pope photo. If you'd asked me, before reading this article, why people turned against Sinnead O'Connor, I would have said "because she shaved her head".
posted by Zumbador at 8:53 PM on October 16, 2022
I think it was at least as much about why she shaved her head as that she shaved her head.
It hadn't been that long since Persis Khambatta had rocked the empty scalp in the Star Trek film and made the cover of Now! magazine on the strength of it. But because she'd done that to fit with the look that the director wanted for the character, the entertainment industry generally and the entertainment press in particular were cool with it. I remember reading several interviews about it and they were all like "so what does it feel like to have a completely bald head" and she was all like "it's amazing in the shower actually" and nobody had a whiff of a problem with it.
Those interviews must have made an impression on teenage me, because I distinctly recall how thoroughly disappointed I was by my first shower after going the impulsive nude nut a decade later; it felt like showering in a rubber hat. Wasn't until after my aerials had had a few days to start venturing back above ground that it started feeling new in a good way. But I digress.
O'Connor shaved her head as a Fuck You to a bunch of record company execs who had decided for her that she needed to look pretty for marketing purposes. And although from our position high in the sky in 2022 that might seem like fairly weak sauce as Fucks You go, at the time it was a huge deal for a young woman to stand up for herself like that and the Normality Enforcement Machine punished her accordingly.
posted by flabdablet at 5:52 AM on October 17, 2022 [5 favorites]
It hadn't been that long since Persis Khambatta had rocked the empty scalp in the Star Trek film and made the cover of Now! magazine on the strength of it. But because she'd done that to fit with the look that the director wanted for the character, the entertainment industry generally and the entertainment press in particular were cool with it. I remember reading several interviews about it and they were all like "so what does it feel like to have a completely bald head" and she was all like "it's amazing in the shower actually" and nobody had a whiff of a problem with it.
Those interviews must have made an impression on teenage me, because I distinctly recall how thoroughly disappointed I was by my first shower after going the impulsive nude nut a decade later; it felt like showering in a rubber hat. Wasn't until after my aerials had had a few days to start venturing back above ground that it started feeling new in a good way. But I digress.
O'Connor shaved her head as a Fuck You to a bunch of record company execs who had decided for her that she needed to look pretty for marketing purposes. And although from our position high in the sky in 2022 that might seem like fairly weak sauce as Fucks You go, at the time it was a huge deal for a young woman to stand up for herself like that and the Normality Enforcement Machine punished her accordingly.
posted by flabdablet at 5:52 AM on October 17, 2022 [5 favorites]
For context, Sinead O'Connor shaved her head in the 80's and had a number one hit in 1990 with it. It was her brand in a post-punk era. In the 1992 film, Alien 3, Ripley had a shaved head at the exact same time O'Connor shredded the pope. When Brittney Spears shaved her head in 2007, it was well after her pop star image was set in stone as the model carefree teen next door and rejection was not the response.
posted by Brian B. at 6:44 AM on October 17, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by Brian B. at 6:44 AM on October 17, 2022 [1 favorite]
But her music was what appealed to all the non-male, non-straight, non-white folks in our group -- specifically the somewhat overwrought song Troy was our favorite, we were in the throws of puberty so cut us some slack.
Not sure why slack is necessary for Troy. I'm listening to it right now and am a 52-year-old white, male, straight guy and think it is f*cking fantastic, just as my college-age self did.
posted by papercake at 7:32 AM on October 17, 2022 [7 favorites]
Not sure why slack is necessary for Troy. I'm listening to it right now and am a 52-year-old white, male, straight guy and think it is f*cking fantastic, just as my college-age self did.
posted by papercake at 7:32 AM on October 17, 2022 [7 favorites]
But the big revolution took place in the early 2000s, when it became so widely reported, and more importantly, widely disapproved of among Catholics themselves.
No, maybe we did not know the full extent of it, but no, I don't think we should give people a pass about how we didn't know. It was known.
It really, really wasn't. The Boston Globe reporting linked above was considered a bombshell for a reason.
The Boston Globe reporting was in 2002. Sinead O'Connor ripped up the picture of the Pope in 1992.
By the time she did that, Canadians already knew.
In 1989, a newspaper in Newfoundland, the Sunday Express, started publishing allegations of sexual and physical abuse of boys dating back to the 1950s at the Mount Cashel Orphanage, run by the Christian Brothers of Ireland in Canada. That led to a royal commission later that year, which was televised across the country. The next year, journalist Michael Harris published a book about it. In 1992, Canada's National Film Board released a docudrama series about it that was broadcast across the entire county, the Christian Brothers formally apologized to the survivors, and the orphanage was demolished.
I was a child at the time and I can confirm Canada knew. Oh boy did we know. It was on the news literally every night for months; people talked about it all the time. I do not think we thought it was an isolated event, although my memory may be failing me there.
Not saying this to undermine the bravery of what O'Connor did: it was disruptive and brave. Just wanna say we did know, at least in Canada.
posted by Susan PG at 7:51 AM on October 17, 2022 [6 favorites]
No, maybe we did not know the full extent of it, but no, I don't think we should give people a pass about how we didn't know. It was known.
It really, really wasn't. The Boston Globe reporting linked above was considered a bombshell for a reason.
The Boston Globe reporting was in 2002. Sinead O'Connor ripped up the picture of the Pope in 1992.
By the time she did that, Canadians already knew.
In 1989, a newspaper in Newfoundland, the Sunday Express, started publishing allegations of sexual and physical abuse of boys dating back to the 1950s at the Mount Cashel Orphanage, run by the Christian Brothers of Ireland in Canada. That led to a royal commission later that year, which was televised across the country. The next year, journalist Michael Harris published a book about it. In 1992, Canada's National Film Board released a docudrama series about it that was broadcast across the entire county, the Christian Brothers formally apologized to the survivors, and the orphanage was demolished.
I was a child at the time and I can confirm Canada knew. Oh boy did we know. It was on the news literally every night for months; people talked about it all the time. I do not think we thought it was an isolated event, although my memory may be failing me there.
Not saying this to undermine the bravery of what O'Connor did: it was disruptive and brave. Just wanna say we did know, at least in Canada.
posted by Susan PG at 7:51 AM on October 17, 2022 [6 favorites]
Not sure why slack is necessary for Troy. I'm listening to it right now and am a 52-year-old white, male, straight guy and think it is f*cking fantastic, just as my college-age self did.
(Agreed, and I'm even older.) Also in the documentary Sinéad reveals that "Troy" was inspired largely by a particularly disturbing abusive event from her own childhood, so she can certainly be forgiven for being highly emotional when recounting it in the song. It's not directed at a lover who spurned her, it was her own mother.
posted by hangashore at 9:29 AM on October 17, 2022 [2 favorites]
(Agreed, and I'm even older.) Also in the documentary Sinéad reveals that "Troy" was inspired largely by a particularly disturbing abusive event from her own childhood, so she can certainly be forgiven for being highly emotional when recounting it in the song. It's not directed at a lover who spurned her, it was her own mother.
posted by hangashore at 9:29 AM on October 17, 2022 [2 favorites]
I remember the Dylan concert and thinking, "you fuckers all made your dime wailing about courage and resistance and here you are staring at your shoes while this brave young woman shows you what courage means."
And I thought less of them all that day, except Kris and Sinead.
posted by klanawa at 11:19 PM on October 17, 2022 [11 favorites]
And I thought less of them all that day, except Kris and Sinead.
posted by klanawa at 11:19 PM on October 17, 2022 [11 favorites]
I was 10 when the SNL pope thing happened and in my very catholic hometown, Sinead was instantly public enemy number one. I loved her. I loved her music. Seeing her music videos was when I realized I was into girls.
I've been telling people for decades that Sinead was right and clearly deserved an apology. I can't wait to see this documentary.
posted by schyler523 at 1:01 PM on October 18, 2022 [3 favorites]
I've been telling people for decades that Sinead was right and clearly deserved an apology. I can't wait to see this documentary.
posted by schyler523 at 1:01 PM on October 18, 2022 [3 favorites]
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I guess I need to see the film to understand this. Why would an American audience react like that? I suppose she'd been vilified in the media after the Pope photo incident?
Would that audience have reacted differently if she'd been male?
posted by Zumbador at 7:29 AM on October 15, 2022 [1 favorite]