there’s a lot less money and attention in the niches than we thought
October 25, 2022 1:51 PM Subscribe
Dave Karpf takes a critical look back fifteen years later on the classic Kevin Kelly essay Thousand True Fans, on what it got right and the various things it got wrong or never grappled with to begin with.
People take their brain stimulation for granted, the connection is rarely made between "oh that's nice" and "perhaps i should reward them."
This is for me personally a connection I made many years ago, and it's one I talk to people when I'm talking about artists I appreciate ALL THE TIME. Bandcamp, tour tickets, merch, kickstarter campaigns (using that as a generic here, they've become evil)... I talk to people ALL THE TIME about how I try to throw money at artists. I'll buy $30 worth of pins from someone on Etsy. It's not a big thing, but for them maybe it is.
The more we can create conversations that talk about supporting artists and the ways in which that can be done directly (and that's become much easier), the better we'll be as a society. Artists require patrons. And without a pope, we'd have no Sistine Chapel. Together, we can create meaningful support for the artists we like. Free is never free.
posted by hippybear at 2:17 PM on October 25, 2022 [12 favorites]
This is for me personally a connection I made many years ago, and it's one I talk to people when I'm talking about artists I appreciate ALL THE TIME. Bandcamp, tour tickets, merch, kickstarter campaigns (using that as a generic here, they've become evil)... I talk to people ALL THE TIME about how I try to throw money at artists. I'll buy $30 worth of pins from someone on Etsy. It's not a big thing, but for them maybe it is.
The more we can create conversations that talk about supporting artists and the ways in which that can be done directly (and that's become much easier), the better we'll be as a society. Artists require patrons. And without a pope, we'd have no Sistine Chapel. Together, we can create meaningful support for the artists we like. Free is never free.
posted by hippybear at 2:17 PM on October 25, 2022 [12 favorites]
Once again, another reason why I'll continue to create art but never, ever, ever waste my time trying to monetize it. Seriously, it sounds nigh impossible and gets worse every year, what is the point.
posted by jenfullmoon at 2:29 PM on October 25, 2022 [10 favorites]
posted by jenfullmoon at 2:29 PM on October 25, 2022 [10 favorites]
Back in 2008 when Kevin Kelly wrote his essay, Google Reader hadn't yet been sent to the graveyard, and the good internet was still alive.
Facebook had only just invented its News Feed in 2006 (before that, we just all visited each other's Facebook profiles when we felt like it, instead of having them fire-hosed into our face), and the algorithm that promotes posts of Facebook's choice wasn't deployed until 2009.
Blogger was the world's most popular social media site.
I remember feeling like we were all passing around good links and blogs and web-based art projects like they were music taped off the radio at two in the morning. The things I consumed online were recommended to me by friends, and friends of friends, and people who became friends through my online interaction with them.
Today, the things I consume online are mostly selected for me by ad-funded algorithms. Metafilter is a rare exception; back in 2008, a lot of the internet felt like Metafilter. In that world, Kelly's hope seemed far more realistic. In this world, not so much.
posted by ourobouros at 2:42 PM on October 25, 2022 [47 favorites]
Facebook had only just invented its News Feed in 2006 (before that, we just all visited each other's Facebook profiles when we felt like it, instead of having them fire-hosed into our face), and the algorithm that promotes posts of Facebook's choice wasn't deployed until 2009.
Blogger was the world's most popular social media site.
I remember feeling like we were all passing around good links and blogs and web-based art projects like they were music taped off the radio at two in the morning. The things I consumed online were recommended to me by friends, and friends of friends, and people who became friends through my online interaction with them.
Today, the things I consume online are mostly selected for me by ad-funded algorithms. Metafilter is a rare exception; back in 2008, a lot of the internet felt like Metafilter. In that world, Kelly's hope seemed far more realistic. In this world, not so much.
posted by ourobouros at 2:42 PM on October 25, 2022 [47 favorites]
I think Karpf discounts TTF too much, but also Kelly misdirects it as well. It's not as much about the internet as either one of them thinks. A thousand (or two thousand, whatever amount works the math) activated and engaged fans is totally possible concentrated locally or regionally. This is how local music scenes work, and local art scenes, and restaurants, etc. People discover creators in person, and the more the creators engage with their fan base, the more the fans are willing to spend their time and money. Of course, all that in-person base building costs money. The venues get more than the artists, etc. But if you can build up a base who will then buy direct from you, you can make a pretty good living. The internet can be good for communication and support, but discovery and base building is always going to be primary local (unless you're lucky enough to get picked as a superstar).
posted by rikschell at 2:46 PM on October 25, 2022 [12 favorites]
posted by rikschell at 2:46 PM on October 25, 2022 [12 favorites]
> A thousand (or two thousand, whatever amount works the math) activated and engaged fans is totally possible concentrated locally or regionally.
But I mean, isn't that exactly the failed promise of the Internet? The Internet was supposed to make it possible to acquire that kind of following among geographically dispersed people. And it did, but for fewer people than those who were originally sustained by local/regional followings. Local/regional scenes have suffered a lot, and the replacement has been worse, not better.
posted by MetaFilter World Peace at 2:49 PM on October 25, 2022 [7 favorites]
But I mean, isn't that exactly the failed promise of the Internet? The Internet was supposed to make it possible to acquire that kind of following among geographically dispersed people. And it did, but for fewer people than those who were originally sustained by local/regional followings. Local/regional scenes have suffered a lot, and the replacement has been worse, not better.
posted by MetaFilter World Peace at 2:49 PM on October 25, 2022 [7 favorites]
I'd want to see some evidence about this being a "failed promise of the Internet". I see bands and restaurants and local communities which are thriving because of the internet, in ways they would have failed (or did fail) previously.
I guess it's the "far fewer people" thing that I question. I simply don't see local or regional scenes suffering from the internet, and I don't see fewer people flourishing than from before the internet.
posted by hippybear at 2:52 PM on October 25, 2022 [1 favorite]
I guess it's the "far fewer people" thing that I question. I simply don't see local or regional scenes suffering from the internet, and I don't see fewer people flourishing than from before the internet.
posted by hippybear at 2:52 PM on October 25, 2022 [1 favorite]
The thousand true fans theory also, as it's presented here at least, ignores the reality that people will be dropping out of your fandom, and you'll need to bring in new people to replace them. It's not like you find a thousand people who will give you $100/year, and then they do that every year for the rest of both your lives. I mean, haven't you ever lost track of a creator you really like? There will be a mention of a new book or a new album, and you think, "I really love that artist! But I haven't read/listened to anything new they've put out since 2016."
I suppose this is why, to be an influencer, you have to be on all the time, feeding content to your followers all the time. You can't miss a day, because there are so many others ready to grab the attention of your audience. If you're a writer putting out a book a year, or every five years, or... How do you keep the attention of your audience? How much time do you have left to create your work after you do the work of promoting yourself, keeping your fans engaged, and so on?
You might have your TTF this year, but if you are out of sight and mind for awhile because you're writing a new novel, how many will be left when you pop your head out again?
posted by Well I never at 2:57 PM on October 25, 2022 [13 favorites]
I suppose this is why, to be an influencer, you have to be on all the time, feeding content to your followers all the time. You can't miss a day, because there are so many others ready to grab the attention of your audience. If you're a writer putting out a book a year, or every five years, or... How do you keep the attention of your audience? How much time do you have left to create your work after you do the work of promoting yourself, keeping your fans engaged, and so on?
You might have your TTF this year, but if you are out of sight and mind for awhile because you're writing a new novel, how many will be left when you pop your head out again?
posted by Well I never at 2:57 PM on October 25, 2022 [13 favorites]
And how much will you get, really, if you *are* on all the time? Trying to make a living off art seems like panning for gold. The market for work that's really yours seems very unrewarding, and trying to turn original endeavors into get rich quick schemes -- or even keep the lights on schemes -- feels like a big formula for disappointment, even disaster. Our economy's not built for this.
posted by kittens for breakfast at 3:05 PM on October 25, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by kittens for breakfast at 3:05 PM on October 25, 2022 [2 favorites]
A friend of mine has gone to like 20+ Phish concerts a year for at least the last decade, and there are apparently a bunch of people like him. To build a dedicated fanbase like that took Phish decades of constant touring, endless album and other releases, and being one of the most popular bands of the 90s.
So the lesson for success is, be really popular in the 1990s. Thank you for coming to my TED Talk.
posted by star gentle uterus at 3:06 PM on October 25, 2022 [22 favorites]
So the lesson for success is, be really popular in the 1990s. Thank you for coming to my TED Talk.
posted by star gentle uterus at 3:06 PM on October 25, 2022 [22 favorites]
This is a great article. I still come across the people who believe this stuff - a thousand true fans! the long tail! Just use creative commons! - and until we take these ideas out of the closet, dust them off, and then really examine what they got right and got wrong, they're going to gunk up the wheels of creative functioning.
posted by The River Ivel at 3:10 PM on October 25, 2022
posted by The River Ivel at 3:10 PM on October 25, 2022
This:
Last month, Gary Vaynerchuk made a prediction that “in a decade, [our airline tickets] will become micro collectibles because they will have an artist attached to it. And somebody may offer you $280 for a flight that you took from Bucharest to Mykonos because they follow that artist.”
puts such a weird chill down my spine, I can't tell you. I don't understand it at all, I don't think anyone actually understands it, and such things getting repeated with so much nonsensical intensity feels like the onset of collective schizophrenia.
posted by argybarg at 3:18 PM on October 25, 2022 [14 favorites]
Last month, Gary Vaynerchuk made a prediction that “in a decade, [our airline tickets] will become micro collectibles because they will have an artist attached to it. And somebody may offer you $280 for a flight that you took from Bucharest to Mykonos because they follow that artist.”
puts such a weird chill down my spine, I can't tell you. I don't understand it at all, I don't think anyone actually understands it, and such things getting repeated with so much nonsensical intensity feels like the onset of collective schizophrenia.
posted by argybarg at 3:18 PM on October 25, 2022 [14 favorites]
I was ready to hate on this but, yeah, this is pointing to a lot of the holes that have appeared in the Thousand True Fans theory in the 14 years since it was originally written.
One big hole it's not mentioning is that, while the old intermediaries of publishing companies are no longer necessarily gatekeepers between a creator and their fans, there's new, more rapacious intermediaries. Everyone just endlessly scrolls social media sites now, and these sites all work hard to hide anything that will take someone off of them, as well as certain keywords - if you see an artist talking about how they are open for "c*mm*ss**ns" or how they would love for you to check out their "p*tr**n", this self-censorship is because The Algorithm loves to down-rank anything with those full words in them, for instance, never mind an offsite link to your graphic novel or your print shop or whatever.
Rebecca Giblin and Cory Doctorow's latest book "Chokepoint Capitalism" is a pretty solid, and really fucking horrifying, rundown of the way so much of our culture now flows through various online companies, who take huge chunks of the profits. It's a fucking nightmare.
posted by egypturnash at 3:22 PM on October 25, 2022 [13 favorites]
One big hole it's not mentioning is that, while the old intermediaries of publishing companies are no longer necessarily gatekeepers between a creator and their fans, there's new, more rapacious intermediaries. Everyone just endlessly scrolls social media sites now, and these sites all work hard to hide anything that will take someone off of them, as well as certain keywords - if you see an artist talking about how they are open for "c*mm*ss**ns" or how they would love for you to check out their "p*tr**n", this self-censorship is because The Algorithm loves to down-rank anything with those full words in them, for instance, never mind an offsite link to your graphic novel or your print shop or whatever.
Rebecca Giblin and Cory Doctorow's latest book "Chokepoint Capitalism" is a pretty solid, and really fucking horrifying, rundown of the way so much of our culture now flows through various online companies, who take huge chunks of the profits. It's a fucking nightmare.
posted by egypturnash at 3:22 PM on October 25, 2022 [13 favorites]
If everyone downstream from you in the delivery system is taking a cut of the money on its way back upstream to you, what's left at the end?
That's long been a problem, and Apple's 30% and such things are only exacerbating it.
posted by hippybear at 3:32 PM on October 25, 2022 [1 favorite]
That's long been a problem, and Apple's 30% and such things are only exacerbating it.
posted by hippybear at 3:32 PM on October 25, 2022 [1 favorite]
I think Karpf discounts TTF too much, but also Kelly misdirects it as well. It's not as much about the internet as either one of them thinks. A thousand (or two thousand, whatever amount works the math) activated and engaged fans is totally possible concentrated locally or regionally. This is how local music scenes work, and local art scenes, and restaurants, etc. People discover creators in person, and the more the creators engage with their fan base, the more the fans are willing to spend their time and money. Of course, all that in-person base building costs money. The venues get more than the artists, etc. But if you can build up a base who will then buy direct from you, you can make a pretty good living. The internet can be good for communication and support, but discovery and base building is always going to be primary local (unless you're lucky enough to get picked as a superstar).
But does it, really? Put aside restaurants, which is such a completely different concept I'm not sure we're talking about the same idea at all. Is there a bunch of musicians in Denver or Detroit or Dallas or whatever who just play music in local clubs, create a local music scene and that's their full time, middle class job?
Because that's the premise of TTF, not that you can have fun gigging or build an awesome local music scene or create meaningful art with a modest-but-devoted number of fans -- and not to diminish any of these -- but that you can make it your line of work. That they have a thousand fans in their town (presumably a few thousand if they're a band) willing to pay $25 for cover, once a week, every week, to hear the same band play?
From what I understand, unless we're actually talking about stars, even the reasonably successful artists that have thousands of fans in many cities barely make a living off touring their music, much less ones that have a thousand fans in a single town.
posted by Superilla at 4:17 PM on October 25, 2022 [4 favorites]
But does it, really? Put aside restaurants, which is such a completely different concept I'm not sure we're talking about the same idea at all. Is there a bunch of musicians in Denver or Detroit or Dallas or whatever who just play music in local clubs, create a local music scene and that's their full time, middle class job?
Because that's the premise of TTF, not that you can have fun gigging or build an awesome local music scene or create meaningful art with a modest-but-devoted number of fans -- and not to diminish any of these -- but that you can make it your line of work. That they have a thousand fans in their town (presumably a few thousand if they're a band) willing to pay $25 for cover, once a week, every week, to hear the same band play?
From what I understand, unless we're actually talking about stars, even the reasonably successful artists that have thousands of fans in many cities barely make a living off touring their music, much less ones that have a thousand fans in a single town.
posted by Superilla at 4:17 PM on October 25, 2022 [4 favorites]
Even some national acts are having trouble making it:
Santigold Cancels North American Tour Citing Changing Industry and Artist Welfare (27/Sept/2022)
ETA: I'll link to Santigold's own website too, but be warned that on my monitor it has this weird flashing strobe going on.
posted by The Pluto Gangsta at 4:41 PM on October 25, 2022 [2 favorites]
Santigold Cancels North American Tour Citing Changing Industry and Artist Welfare (27/Sept/2022)
ETA: I'll link to Santigold's own website too, but be warned that on my monitor it has this weird flashing strobe going on.
posted by The Pluto Gangsta at 4:41 PM on October 25, 2022 [2 favorites]
There's also various fun articles these days about how people who YouTube/Twitch/TikTok for a living are (a) constantly on, (b) exhausted, and (c) receiving death threats.
posted by jenfullmoon at 4:54 PM on October 25, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by jenfullmoon at 4:54 PM on October 25, 2022 [1 favorite]
Yes, but there are also bands like Carbon Leaf who do a tour every year and do project fundraising campaigns and are able to support 5 band members and their families off of this and have been for years even without major label support. It's the 1000 true fans idea only times 1000 because people know them all over the country. In some parts less than others, and they do fewer concerts in those parts of the country. (I could argue this works against them, but why do speculative concerts when you can do concerts with a proven demand?)
Grateful Dead ran for decades without charting hits or even really public acknowledgement of them and were one of the biggest acts of all time. Not everyone is that, but if you get 1/100th of that, you've got a career.
posted by hippybear at 4:59 PM on October 25, 2022 [1 favorite]
Grateful Dead ran for decades without charting hits or even really public acknowledgement of them and were one of the biggest acts of all time. Not everyone is that, but if you get 1/100th of that, you've got a career.
posted by hippybear at 4:59 PM on October 25, 2022 [1 favorite]
Getting to the point of having your art pay your bills takes more luck (and possibly more privilege of some sort) than most people get in a lifetime. Success in any artistic field is very rarely down to skill/talent at creating art; certainly having more than a certain amount of talent has diminishing returns towards enabling your success. If you're not picked up for promotion somehow, you're not going anywhere. Lacking a patron, lacking a sponsor, lacking favour from this week's algorithm, you're just another rube churning out free content dreaming of a stroke of lightning that changes your fate.
So, yeah, make your art, but monetizing it is the preserve of the social media sites that use you as free labour for their engagement algorithms. How many ads got plastered on your work today without you getting even a fraction of a cent for it?
I'm a little irked, but it's the only game in town. Unless you got a rich uncle who owns a gallery in Soho, or the like. Then you got anything you want.
posted by seanmpuckett at 5:58 PM on October 25, 2022 [5 favorites]
So, yeah, make your art, but monetizing it is the preserve of the social media sites that use you as free labour for their engagement algorithms. How many ads got plastered on your work today without you getting even a fraction of a cent for it?
I'm a little irked, but it's the only game in town. Unless you got a rich uncle who owns a gallery in Soho, or the like. Then you got anything you want.
posted by seanmpuckett at 5:58 PM on October 25, 2022 [5 favorites]
I don't think the marketplace is there to support hundreds of bands touring, and I don't think the audience is there to buy the merchandise. What I envision is mega-popular event bands on one side, selling out stadiums, and bar bands/regionally touring (e.g., driving from PA to Indiana on the weekend) bands on the other: celebrities and hobbyists. Hobbyists are either the idle rich or impoverished enthusiasts. The only way you'd have another band like The Dead would be if you had a wandering group of nomads who just didn't give a shit and didn't need any money to live, some kind of trustafarian Mad Max scenario. I'm not sure how The Dead did it the first time. Maybe they were hauling drugs? That seems chancey.
posted by kittens for breakfast at 6:07 PM on October 25, 2022
posted by kittens for breakfast at 6:07 PM on October 25, 2022
What we’ve mostly experienced with the Internet of the past fifteen years is that the platforms algorithmically funnel everyone’s attention to the same thing.
You know, this is right there on the graph (and not necessarily a consequence of algorithms explicitly or implicitly being designed to do it). I have a whole thing about this, how the whole concept of the “long tail” has always been a description of half of a power law distribution but somehow the Wired guys never seemed to have much interest in talking about the head. Karpf isn’t wrong here, obviously, but it’s kind of funny to me that the idea that it was under Kelly’s nose is under his nose and he’s still not making the connection to say it.
posted by atoxyl at 6:09 PM on October 25, 2022 [4 favorites]
You know, this is right there on the graph (and not necessarily a consequence of algorithms explicitly or implicitly being designed to do it). I have a whole thing about this, how the whole concept of the “long tail” has always been a description of half of a power law distribution but somehow the Wired guys never seemed to have much interest in talking about the head. Karpf isn’t wrong here, obviously, but it’s kind of funny to me that the idea that it was under Kelly’s nose is under his nose and he’s still not making the connection to say it.
posted by atoxyl at 6:09 PM on October 25, 2022 [4 favorites]
WTF are you talking about, kittens for breakfast? There are a whole lot of bands who I only know about because I see their ads in the local rags when they come around literally every year (or more) on tour. Tribute acts like Lez Zeppelin or various Pink Floyd groups, artists I know nothing about like TechN9ne (is that how it's spelled?)... Like I don't even live in a major music center but I see all these bands who come around again and again and they can't all be hobbyists -- the ones I personally know of and go see are working class people who do the things to stay alive. And they aren't waiting tables between tours.
I think you and I live in very different worlds, because what I observe happening and talk to bands taking place is the opposite of what you describe.
posted by hippybear at 6:12 PM on October 25, 2022 [1 favorite]
I think you and I live in very different worlds, because what I observe happening and talk to bands taking place is the opposite of what you describe.
posted by hippybear at 6:12 PM on October 25, 2022 [1 favorite]
Tribute bands aren't like...I mean, that isn't original music. I'm not trying to talk smack about it, it's fine, but it's bands trading on the popularity of bands who were popular decades ago, when huge amounts of money went into promoting bands. I think it would be fun to be in a tribute band! Is that really what people are talking about when they talk about fledgling creators, though?
posted by kittens for breakfast at 6:28 PM on October 25, 2022 [3 favorites]
posted by kittens for breakfast at 6:28 PM on October 25, 2022 [3 favorites]
Literally talking about bands like Indigo Girls, Carbon Leaf and other bands... I mentioned TechN9ne... there are others.. do I have to go get a copy of the local rag and type in all the names I'm seeing repeatedly?
And what's the difference? Making a living making music is that, isn't it? I mean, tribute bands are an art all their own (esp on the level of most of these acts), and to diminish them is to diminish any classical orchestra playing a Beethoven symphony
There are literally hundreds of bands which make a living doing their own small tours (200-1000 seat venues) across the country every year. I'm sorry you don't believe me. I'll compile a list and put it here in a week or so.
posted by hippybear at 6:40 PM on October 25, 2022 [2 favorites]
And what's the difference? Making a living making music is that, isn't it? I mean, tribute bands are an art all their own (esp on the level of most of these acts), and to diminish them is to diminish any classical orchestra playing a Beethoven symphony
There are literally hundreds of bands which make a living doing their own small tours (200-1000 seat venues) across the country every year. I'm sorry you don't believe me. I'll compile a list and put it here in a week or so.
posted by hippybear at 6:40 PM on October 25, 2022 [2 favorites]
I guess it's the "far fewer people" thing that I question. I simply don't see local or regional scenes suffering from the internet, and I don't see fewer people flourishing than from before the internet.
Today, my town now has zero proper venues, and at a push, two pubs that you could host a gig in. Fifteen years ago, it had three full-time music venues, four pubs that ran regular gigs, and another three to five you could put one on at. It used to cost you a fifty quid deposit to put a night on, which you got back if you got people through the door to the bar. Now, you're looking at four hundred quid, minimum, non-refundable.
Yes, it's less now. Good for you that you apparently live in some major market somewhere, but in a lot of the world, music at anything much less than arena venue level has fucking died on its arse.
posted by Dysk at 7:19 PM on October 25, 2022 [5 favorites]
Today, my town now has zero proper venues, and at a push, two pubs that you could host a gig in. Fifteen years ago, it had three full-time music venues, four pubs that ran regular gigs, and another three to five you could put one on at. It used to cost you a fifty quid deposit to put a night on, which you got back if you got people through the door to the bar. Now, you're looking at four hundred quid, minimum, non-refundable.
Yes, it's less now. Good for you that you apparently live in some major market somewhere, but in a lot of the world, music at anything much less than arena venue level has fucking died on its arse.
posted by Dysk at 7:19 PM on October 25, 2022 [5 favorites]
(And the local university has more students than ever, yet the local uni battle of the bands competition struggles to get enough acts for five heats of five bands each, despite allowing people to enter as many bands as they like. Fifteen years ago you had to apply early to get a spot as one of six acts in one of six heats, with nobody being allowed to enter more than once.
Are the kids today less into (live) music? Maybe, but the bigger issue is the disappearance of grass-roots venues - with nowhere to play, people don't form bands in the same way. Your typical battle of the bands band back in the day would've played a half dozen gigs before the contest. Now, most of them never play again, before or after.)
posted by Dysk at 7:28 PM on October 25, 2022 [3 favorites]
Are the kids today less into (live) music? Maybe, but the bigger issue is the disappearance of grass-roots venues - with nowhere to play, people don't form bands in the same way. Your typical battle of the bands band back in the day would've played a half dozen gigs before the contest. Now, most of them never play again, before or after.)
posted by Dysk at 7:28 PM on October 25, 2022 [3 favorites]
And hippybear, the acts you list are *still* what I think of as "legacy acts", who are basically trading on there being a bunch of older fans with a disposable income - very different sorts of legacy between the Indigo Girls and Tech N9ne, but still. They're artifacts of radio play, past subcultures, and a functioning music press.
(Source: have sold tickets to multiple different Pink Floyd tribute acts in one year at a single venue, among other expensive, retro-targeting acts.)
posted by sagc at 7:28 PM on October 25, 2022 [3 favorites]
(Source: have sold tickets to multiple different Pink Floyd tribute acts in one year at a single venue, among other expensive, retro-targeting acts.)
posted by sagc at 7:28 PM on October 25, 2022 [3 favorites]
It's entirely possible that something that's true for one of you in one place is different for the other person in the other place. Some places have thriving music scenes, and others don't. Absent a thriving music scene, you're not likely to get lots of people stopping in town to play shows to empty pubs because they without the crowds and support, they can't make money.
How you see it is literally down to where you live, or who you follow. I don't live in the states, but I follow Jer (Skatune Network), and they are literally building their following every day, getting involved in all sorts of projects with other fourth wave ska bands (they toured/recorded with We Are The Union), and are constantly hyping shows and posting snippets of new (and awesome) covers.
Most of the bands that I follow, twenty or thirty years ago, would have been pretty wealthy just based on album sales. Instead, they're still touring (constantly), joining in big festivals, and finding other ways to engage their audience/supporters. Less Than Jake has been doing all sort of posting on pretty much every decent social media site available, offering all sorts of ways to connect to the band at different levels of (financial) engagement. The thing, for me, that's a bit troubling, is just how much they're doing, and it makes me worry about how solvent, as an ongoing band, they really are.
posted by Ghidorah at 8:49 PM on October 25, 2022 [1 favorite]
How you see it is literally down to where you live, or who you follow. I don't live in the states, but I follow Jer (Skatune Network), and they are literally building their following every day, getting involved in all sorts of projects with other fourth wave ska bands (they toured/recorded with We Are The Union), and are constantly hyping shows and posting snippets of new (and awesome) covers.
Most of the bands that I follow, twenty or thirty years ago, would have been pretty wealthy just based on album sales. Instead, they're still touring (constantly), joining in big festivals, and finding other ways to engage their audience/supporters. Less Than Jake has been doing all sort of posting on pretty much every decent social media site available, offering all sorts of ways to connect to the band at different levels of (financial) engagement. The thing, for me, that's a bit troubling, is just how much they're doing, and it makes me worry about how solvent, as an ongoing band, they really are.
posted by Ghidorah at 8:49 PM on October 25, 2022 [1 favorite]
Today, the things I consume online are mostly selected for me by ad-funded algorithms. Metafilter is a rare exception
I believe that a lot of what makes it to metafilter was selected for the poster by ad-funded algorithms.
posted by aniola at 9:38 PM on October 25, 2022 [8 favorites]
I believe that a lot of what makes it to metafilter was selected for the poster by ad-funded algorithms.
posted by aniola at 9:38 PM on October 25, 2022 [8 favorites]
WTF are you talking about, kittens for breakfast? There are a whole lot of bands who I only know about because I see their ads in the local rags when they come around literally every year (or more) on tour. Tribute acts like Lez Zeppelin or various Pink Floyd groups, artists I know nothing about like TechN9ne (is that how it's spelled?)... Like I don't even live in a major music center but I see all these bands who come around again and again and they can't all be hobbyists -- the ones I personally know of and go see are working class people who do the things to stay alive. And they aren't waiting tables between tours.
Maaaaaan.
I just rolled my eyes so hard that about a dozen brand new synthwave, glitchcore, witchhouse and trap Soundcloud bedroom studio artists fell out of my eyeballs and they're all starving and asking me if I have any ADHD medication or any spare instant ramen and I can't spell any of their names without extended Unicode glyphs.
Or whatever it is that the kids are listening to, today. I mean trap and synthwave is ancient in internet age terms.
Knowing a whole lot of cover and jam bands I would bet you that a lot of those novelty tribute bands you're talking about aren't paying the real bills gigging, and there's at least one person footing the bill to subsidize the touring, playing out and/or partying. Almost every small venue cover/tribute/jam or whatever band I've ever met has an angel funder, and they're usually in the band, and chances are good they're the most annoying person in the band that everyone puts up with and can't kick out because they have the money that's keeping the band afloat and even remotely possible.
Oh, man how many times I've seen that one. "Hey, why is that guy such a jerk!? He makes your band look like a total asshole!" "Yeah, well, he bought the PA, the drum kit and tour bus and hired the agent-slash-tour manager." "Oh, not again. Got it."
And then everyone else goes back to their day jobs when the tour ends, or they otherwise have some situation at home with free housing or cheap living in addition to the day job to give them enough slack to make music and be able to take off on self-supported tours.
I've known a handful of musicians from some relatively well known globally recognized and still regularly touring bands. I mean like 3,000-5,000 person theater shows are small intimate shows for them kind of big, and they do stadiums. I'm not going to name drop because I'm old enough to know it's rude, especially when talking about their private lives.
One band in particular is a 90s band coasting on those Gen X and millennial fumes.
The person I know from that band definitely isn't starving, but they aren't very well off or rich, either. Somewhere in the lower to middle middle class, financially.
They live in an affordable house in a relatively affordable town, and they have frequently talked about how they really don't want to tour or be this kind of "famous" any more at all, but they have kids and a mortgage and bills to pay. It's just a job. It's no longer art or fun or creative to them. It's not good for their health or family life, either.
They would choose a different job if they could but after that many years of touring it's basically the only job they can do unless they want to tend bar or wait tables. It's not like they're going to go to school and learn to code and jump into an Amazon tech gig with a bunch of mid-20 year olds at their age, they'd get eaten alive even if they were remotely techy, which they aren't.
They do know how to play one very particular back catalog from one very particular band with their eyes closed, though.
And the whole band is like this. They only really go back on tour when they need the money to pay bills.
This musician in particular has talked to me about how there's a whole strategy of not touring for a while to give their fans a break and make them wonder if they will ever tour again and they just let that ferment to build up hype. And then they live on their modest savings from the last tour until it's time to go tour again and do a totally relentless schedule of like 30-60 shows in 2-3 months or less and get the tour over with as fast as possible.
This person is pretty plainly fucking miserable that they even have to tour for money after like 2-3 decades of this kind of thing because the royalties from record sales never really paid off, and things definitely didn't get any better after the rise of digital music and streaming.
They told me some numbers about what their average monthly cut from Spotify was and it was insultingly low for the number of plays this band gets. Like you couldn't even buy a decent sandwich with it kind of insulting. And this band plays sold out stadiums and arenas.
Anyway, below a certain level of ticket sales and major stardom - there's almost no one out there making a living playing or recording music these days, not as a career that pays enough to live or plan on retiring on.
It is possible to barely break even and cover costs messing around with playing live music and shows and doing promotion or self-supported tours but... that's just barely breaking even. That means you earned your bread and beer for the day, gas or transportation money to the next gig, promotional costs, miscellaneous and maybe a manager and driver if you're really lucky.
By "breaking even" I mean as soon as the tour stops or you have one or more bad shows you're either out of money and can't even afford a McDouble and a tallboy of cheap beer, or now you're in debt on your credit cards kind of "breaking even".
posted by loquacious at 9:39 PM on October 25, 2022 [15 favorites]
Maaaaaan.
I just rolled my eyes so hard that about a dozen brand new synthwave, glitchcore, witchhouse and trap Soundcloud bedroom studio artists fell out of my eyeballs and they're all starving and asking me if I have any ADHD medication or any spare instant ramen and I can't spell any of their names without extended Unicode glyphs.
Or whatever it is that the kids are listening to, today. I mean trap and synthwave is ancient in internet age terms.
Knowing a whole lot of cover and jam bands I would bet you that a lot of those novelty tribute bands you're talking about aren't paying the real bills gigging, and there's at least one person footing the bill to subsidize the touring, playing out and/or partying. Almost every small venue cover/tribute/jam or whatever band I've ever met has an angel funder, and they're usually in the band, and chances are good they're the most annoying person in the band that everyone puts up with and can't kick out because they have the money that's keeping the band afloat and even remotely possible.
Oh, man how many times I've seen that one. "Hey, why is that guy such a jerk!? He makes your band look like a total asshole!" "Yeah, well, he bought the PA, the drum kit and tour bus and hired the agent-slash-tour manager." "Oh, not again. Got it."
And then everyone else goes back to their day jobs when the tour ends, or they otherwise have some situation at home with free housing or cheap living in addition to the day job to give them enough slack to make music and be able to take off on self-supported tours.
I've known a handful of musicians from some relatively well known globally recognized and still regularly touring bands. I mean like 3,000-5,000 person theater shows are small intimate shows for them kind of big, and they do stadiums. I'm not going to name drop because I'm old enough to know it's rude, especially when talking about their private lives.
One band in particular is a 90s band coasting on those Gen X and millennial fumes.
The person I know from that band definitely isn't starving, but they aren't very well off or rich, either. Somewhere in the lower to middle middle class, financially.
They live in an affordable house in a relatively affordable town, and they have frequently talked about how they really don't want to tour or be this kind of "famous" any more at all, but they have kids and a mortgage and bills to pay. It's just a job. It's no longer art or fun or creative to them. It's not good for their health or family life, either.
They would choose a different job if they could but after that many years of touring it's basically the only job they can do unless they want to tend bar or wait tables. It's not like they're going to go to school and learn to code and jump into an Amazon tech gig with a bunch of mid-20 year olds at their age, they'd get eaten alive even if they were remotely techy, which they aren't.
They do know how to play one very particular back catalog from one very particular band with their eyes closed, though.
And the whole band is like this. They only really go back on tour when they need the money to pay bills.
This musician in particular has talked to me about how there's a whole strategy of not touring for a while to give their fans a break and make them wonder if they will ever tour again and they just let that ferment to build up hype. And then they live on their modest savings from the last tour until it's time to go tour again and do a totally relentless schedule of like 30-60 shows in 2-3 months or less and get the tour over with as fast as possible.
This person is pretty plainly fucking miserable that they even have to tour for money after like 2-3 decades of this kind of thing because the royalties from record sales never really paid off, and things definitely didn't get any better after the rise of digital music and streaming.
They told me some numbers about what their average monthly cut from Spotify was and it was insultingly low for the number of plays this band gets. Like you couldn't even buy a decent sandwich with it kind of insulting. And this band plays sold out stadiums and arenas.
Anyway, below a certain level of ticket sales and major stardom - there's almost no one out there making a living playing or recording music these days, not as a career that pays enough to live or plan on retiring on.
It is possible to barely break even and cover costs messing around with playing live music and shows and doing promotion or self-supported tours but... that's just barely breaking even. That means you earned your bread and beer for the day, gas or transportation money to the next gig, promotional costs, miscellaneous and maybe a manager and driver if you're really lucky.
By "breaking even" I mean as soon as the tour stops or you have one or more bad shows you're either out of money and can't even afford a McDouble and a tallboy of cheap beer, or now you're in debt on your credit cards kind of "breaking even".
posted by loquacious at 9:39 PM on October 25, 2022 [15 favorites]
That sounds totally plausible loquacious, knowing a smidge about the topic myself. My impression is that touring is a hard life, and it doesn't necessarily pay as well as a mediocre tech career.
posted by wotsac at 10:02 PM on October 25, 2022
posted by wotsac at 10:02 PM on October 25, 2022
Some places have thriving music scenes, and others don't. Absent a thriving music scene, you're not likely to get lots of people stopping in town to play shows to empty pubs because they without the crowds and support, they can't make money.
Thing is, this town went from somewhere with a thriving music scene to dead in about a decade. Coventry has a fraction of what it did ten fifteen years ago, too. There's a bit more in Brum, but again, so much less than there used to be.
It's property prices, and councils. Venues get priced out by landlords, councils shut places down due to noise (often at the behest of people moving into new builds or former commercial properties redone as expensive flats) and planning permission is given for even more expensive flats, maybe with a small café.
posted by Dysk at 12:00 AM on October 26, 2022 [4 favorites]
Thing is, this town went from somewhere with a thriving music scene to dead in about a decade. Coventry has a fraction of what it did ten fifteen years ago, too. There's a bit more in Brum, but again, so much less than there used to be.
It's property prices, and councils. Venues get priced out by landlords, councils shut places down due to noise (often at the behest of people moving into new builds or former commercial properties redone as expensive flats) and planning permission is given for even more expensive flats, maybe with a small café.
posted by Dysk at 12:00 AM on October 26, 2022 [4 favorites]
This conversation is absolutely fascinating to me as someone who is a part of a truly thriving and successful community of artists and musicians. I’m being deliberately vague here, partially because I don’t want to get into it and partially because I think it’s true of a lot of true subcultures where people are invested in and committed to community. I know people who sell out of their monthly artist drop in under three minutes every single month. People who have built thriving businesses from having a small number of fans who sell them out and buy for their friends. It’s true that fewer of these people are music acts, but it’s also very much not none.
Hell, I have just thought of two other thriving subcultures that I’m on the periphery of that have a similar number of people making a living solely off of their art from dedicated customer bases. What they all have in common is a shared cultural language and commitment to one another. I sort of think it might be the case that once upon a time the internet itself was a shared subculture, and people who grew up with that haven’t adjusted to that no longer being the case.
The failing I see over and over among people who feel like they’re not making it is thinking that those thousand fans should be this atomized thing and that there’s competition instead of cooperation. The people who I know who are making it and creating culture are the ones pulling people along with them and pooling their fans together and making something that is communal and real. Maybe they don’t buy from you this month because they’re buying from your friend, but you have them engaged in the same ecosystem. And all of you are making culture together. And that culture sustains a lot more people than just you.
It’s just weird to read a lot of comments saying it’s impossible to do what I’m currently doing and which most of my friends and peers are currently doing.
posted by Bottlecap at 5:13 AM on October 26, 2022 [5 favorites]
Hell, I have just thought of two other thriving subcultures that I’m on the periphery of that have a similar number of people making a living solely off of their art from dedicated customer bases. What they all have in common is a shared cultural language and commitment to one another. I sort of think it might be the case that once upon a time the internet itself was a shared subculture, and people who grew up with that haven’t adjusted to that no longer being the case.
The failing I see over and over among people who feel like they’re not making it is thinking that those thousand fans should be this atomized thing and that there’s competition instead of cooperation. The people who I know who are making it and creating culture are the ones pulling people along with them and pooling their fans together and making something that is communal and real. Maybe they don’t buy from you this month because they’re buying from your friend, but you have them engaged in the same ecosystem. And all of you are making culture together. And that culture sustains a lot more people than just you.
It’s just weird to read a lot of comments saying it’s impossible to do what I’m currently doing and which most of my friends and peers are currently doing.
posted by Bottlecap at 5:13 AM on October 26, 2022 [5 favorites]
Bottlecap, being "deliberately vague" makes me think you are gatekeeping.
posted by seanmpuckett at 5:20 AM on October 26, 2022
posted by seanmpuckett at 5:20 AM on October 26, 2022
To be clear - I think the takedown also makes this fundamental mistake, it’s not just this thread. The ultra online have a different view of the world and of how cultures work, and I think that’s super reflected in the essay.
posted by Bottlecap at 5:23 AM on October 26, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by Bottlecap at 5:23 AM on October 26, 2022 [1 favorite]
Shrug, naw, I just have watched people on this site pick apart every and any concrete example ever given (very much including this thread) and I don’t have the energy for it.
posted by Bottlecap at 5:25 AM on October 26, 2022
posted by Bottlecap at 5:25 AM on October 26, 2022
Ok. Given that you said "drop" and the possibility of selling out in "three minutes" I'm assuming you're talking about NFTs, in which case, I understand your reluctance to disclose it here.
posted by seanmpuckett at 5:45 AM on October 26, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by seanmpuckett at 5:45 AM on October 26, 2022 [1 favorite]
LOL I appreciate you proving my point, but no. I’m talking about subculture jewelry, prints, clothing, pottery and other physical objects. I’m taking this thread out of my activity, and frankly if I were more articulate I would have something to say about the gatekeeping on this website directly leading to people being reluctant to share things, and very much not the other way around. The immediate assumption of bad faith rather than just taking someone’s words at face value is *exhausting* and discouraging of community. If you are interested because you are a struggling artist, taking it out on someone who is a part of successful artist communities isn’t going to get you the results you are hoping for.
posted by Bottlecap at 5:51 AM on October 26, 2022 [10 favorites]
posted by Bottlecap at 5:51 AM on October 26, 2022 [10 favorites]
Thanks for playing, man.
posted by kittens for breakfast at 5:56 AM on October 26, 2022
posted by kittens for breakfast at 5:56 AM on October 26, 2022
I appreciate the answer.
posted by seanmpuckett at 5:59 AM on October 26, 2022
posted by seanmpuckett at 5:59 AM on October 26, 2022
Bottlecap, I think that's part of what this piece is getting at - you have to be engaged with, and making works that fit, a subculture where these norms exist.
You generally *can't* just form a band and start playing shows, or create art in a vacuum - you have to create a piece of Content that trends, or references Homestuck, or has half of the content locked behind a Patreon. That's a sea change for what it means to be an artist, and the transition into an influencer economy he describes.
Basically, it sounds like you're describing the success modes of this model as the only experience of it? There are absolutely people in those scenes who *aren't* making a living at it and would like to, right? What distinguishes them from the successful people?
posted by sagc at 6:30 AM on October 26, 2022
You generally *can't* just form a band and start playing shows, or create art in a vacuum - you have to create a piece of Content that trends, or references Homestuck, or has half of the content locked behind a Patreon. That's a sea change for what it means to be an artist, and the transition into an influencer economy he describes.
Basically, it sounds like you're describing the success modes of this model as the only experience of it? There are absolutely people in those scenes who *aren't* making a living at it and would like to, right? What distinguishes them from the successful people?
posted by sagc at 6:30 AM on October 26, 2022
A system that involves, essentially, a closed group of people perpetually pushing the same $5 around is fraught with peril. For one thing, no new money is coming into the system, so this still presupposes an angel investor of some kind who introduced the money to begin with. New infusions of cash can only come due to windfall -- a group outside the circle buying in, or someone within the circle getting rich and choosing to continue to spend within the circle (and not just leave his or her peers behind) -- and windfall is luck, not the result of a good design. I am glad whatever bottlecap is doing is working, but without any more information, I can't say much more than, "Huh. Cool."
posted by kittens for breakfast at 6:43 AM on October 26, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by kittens for breakfast at 6:43 AM on October 26, 2022 [1 favorite]
Is there a bunch of musicians in Denver or Detroit or Dallas or whatever who just play music in local clubs, create a local music scene and that's their full time, middle class job?
Yes, this does actually exist, and Jerry Jeff Walker wrote a song about the ephemeral-ness of being a local-ish artist in 1996, back when the internet barely existed. And yes, these guys do play shows for 100 people in different parts of large metros on a daily/weekly basis, and go on minor tours. I think 'middle class' is pretty broad, but yeah, they are able to be full-time musicians, at least for a while.
posted by The_Vegetables at 8:51 AM on October 26, 2022 [1 favorite]
Yes, this does actually exist, and Jerry Jeff Walker wrote a song about the ephemeral-ness of being a local-ish artist in 1996, back when the internet barely existed. And yes, these guys do play shows for 100 people in different parts of large metros on a daily/weekly basis, and go on minor tours. I think 'middle class' is pretty broad, but yeah, they are able to be full-time musicians, at least for a while.
posted by The_Vegetables at 8:51 AM on October 26, 2022 [1 favorite]
That sounds totally plausible loquacious, knowing a smidge about the topic myself. My impression is that touring is a hard life, and it doesn't necessarily pay as well as a mediocre tech career.
Again, it depends on what you are willing to put up with. Scott Miller of Game Theory/Loud Family was a full-time San Francisco software developer who also had an album contract and toured using his vacation days (I guess). He was always kind of resigned to his lack of fame, but had to create music even if the buying public didn't like it that much. 1000 fans does not a huge music career make, so he probably had that - but it wasn't enough.
posted by The_Vegetables at 9:12 AM on October 26, 2022
Again, it depends on what you are willing to put up with. Scott Miller of Game Theory/Loud Family was a full-time San Francisco software developer who also had an album contract and toured using his vacation days (I guess). He was always kind of resigned to his lack of fame, but had to create music even if the buying public didn't like it that much. 1000 fans does not a huge music career make, so he probably had that - but it wasn't enough.
posted by The_Vegetables at 9:12 AM on October 26, 2022
This essay seems unduly harsh/cynical.
It's true that the Thousand True Fans theory has proven harder to put into practice than Kelly envisioned. But as Karpf himself acknowledges, influencer culture hadn't taken off in 2008.
Another thing that hadn't taken off: Spotify. Many more musicians could still make OK money from selling downloads (and a few CDs).
Karpf is judging an essay written in another era by the standards of the current era, and when he finds Kelly's 2008 vision faulty, seems to judge it as not just outdated, but to have a deliberate con from the start.
Anyway, I'd love to see his proposed solution -- more public funding for the arts -- happen. But I'm not holding my breath.
posted by Artifice_Eternity at 10:42 AM on October 26, 2022
It's true that the Thousand True Fans theory has proven harder to put into practice than Kelly envisioned. But as Karpf himself acknowledges, influencer culture hadn't taken off in 2008.
Another thing that hadn't taken off: Spotify. Many more musicians could still make OK money from selling downloads (and a few CDs).
Karpf is judging an essay written in another era by the standards of the current era, and when he finds Kelly's 2008 vision faulty, seems to judge it as not just outdated, but to have a deliberate con from the start.
Anyway, I'd love to see his proposed solution -- more public funding for the arts -- happen. But I'm not holding my breath.
posted by Artifice_Eternity at 10:42 AM on October 26, 2022
I think he goes some way to address that. To me, things like Spotify and influencer culture are at least partially the result of some of the things mentioned in the original essay. People attempting to implement strategies to get 1000 true fans become influencers by necessity. People who are confronted with a huge, unorganized amount of art - most of which is quite good! - turn to streaming services to a) avoid behaving like the consumers mentioned in 1000 True Fans (ie, paying large amounts for discrete products) and b) help them offload the work of choosing among the vast, undifferentiated amount of content available.
Like, I'm extremely dedicated to picking out, pretty carefully what I'm going to listen to. I'm subscribed to hundreds of bands on youtube, hundreds of threads on ilxor, and follow tons of bands on Bandcamp. I, personally, like listening to new music too much to give it up, and have weird tastes. But if I didn't, it would be much, much easier for me to just rely on Spotify or Apple playlists to keep up a less-than-hobby level interest in music.
posted by sagc at 10:56 AM on October 26, 2022 [1 favorite]
Like, I'm extremely dedicated to picking out, pretty carefully what I'm going to listen to. I'm subscribed to hundreds of bands on youtube, hundreds of threads on ilxor, and follow tons of bands on Bandcamp. I, personally, like listening to new music too much to give it up, and have weird tastes. But if I didn't, it would be much, much easier for me to just rely on Spotify or Apple playlists to keep up a less-than-hobby level interest in music.
posted by sagc at 10:56 AM on October 26, 2022 [1 favorite]
Why aren't youtube/twitter/instagram etc offering micropayments to artists? In both Weibo and Weixin, two Chinese social media apps I'm familiar with, there's a nice '打赏‘/reward feature that allows the viewer or reader contribute a casual tip (less than a dollar, as low as 2RMB) to the content generator, and I always feel good being able to do that.
posted by of strange foe at 11:10 AM on October 26, 2022
posted by of strange foe at 11:10 AM on October 26, 2022
Weibo/Weixin are very tightly integrated into the banking system in China and people use them to pay for almost everything, yes? making a micropayment to an artist is essentially frictionless in China as it doesn't require giving another organization access to one's bank account for either patron or artist.
One cannot say the same for any social media site in the west. Hell, I get grief for using Square for my online shop because it's Yet Another Place people have to enter their credit card info, yet another company people have to just intrinsically trust. Patreon and ko-fi and paypal offer micropayments but again, in order to make a payment, both parties have to sign up to the same service. It's a huge pain.
posted by seanmpuckett at 11:39 AM on October 26, 2022
One cannot say the same for any social media site in the west. Hell, I get grief for using Square for my online shop because it's Yet Another Place people have to enter their credit card info, yet another company people have to just intrinsically trust. Patreon and ko-fi and paypal offer micropayments but again, in order to make a payment, both parties have to sign up to the same service. It's a huge pain.
posted by seanmpuckett at 11:39 AM on October 26, 2022
I guess the question then is, if ko-fi and Patreon can offer that service, why don't the social media companies try and cut out that middle man and offer the same service themselves? Loads of people are already paying them for advertising, or to 'boost' or promote their posts, so they've got one half of the financial side already in place.
posted by Dysk at 1:17 PM on October 26, 2022
posted by Dysk at 1:17 PM on October 26, 2022
I'm surprised to reread TTF and realise the fans are expected to shell out $100 each annually. I'd always read it as a fraction of that- $1 a month/$12 a year. Maybe that's why I thought it held up better than it does, because I never realised it was promising $100k in 2008 (about $130k today).
posted by Braeburn at 1:19 PM on October 26, 2022
posted by Braeburn at 1:19 PM on October 26, 2022
To the point about local scenes suffering because of the internet: I saw exactly this happen in two cities where I worked as a rave promoter when local, city-specific message boards became the default way to engage socially rather than attend8ng events.
To the point about local scenes being enough to sustain artists: I would never have been able to successfully launch my English-language comic book in my overwhelmingly French-speaking city without the global reach of the internet, especially in terms of access to the American market. The vast majority of our readership is American.
posted by jordantwodelta at 2:31 PM on October 26, 2022
To the point about local scenes being enough to sustain artists: I would never have been able to successfully launch my English-language comic book in my overwhelmingly French-speaking city without the global reach of the internet, especially in terms of access to the American market. The vast majority of our readership is American.
posted by jordantwodelta at 2:31 PM on October 26, 2022
@seanmpuckett: Really? I see tons of sites for "online tip jar" in google. I would have thought those were micropayments. Not disagreeing. Just sometimes I see a "tip jar" icon at sites and would like to know if they are a ripoff or not.
posted by aleph at 2:38 PM on October 26, 2022
posted by aleph at 2:38 PM on October 26, 2022
You don't have to sign up for Ko-Fi to make a donation. I use it for a podcast I co-host. It's definitely for micropayments.
posted by jordantwodelta at 3:04 PM on October 26, 2022
posted by jordantwodelta at 3:04 PM on October 26, 2022
aleph, I'm not saying micropayment sites don't exist in the west. I'm saying the friction for using them is much higher than in the east. If you want to tip me 50c and I'm presently using, say, ko-fi.com for accepting donations, then if you don't have a ko-fi account, you have to make one, and/or give them your credit card info. (If you do have a ko-fi account, it's easy enough, sure.) Now the next person who comes along is using Paypal for their donations. You want to give them 50c, but do you have a Paypal account? Give your CC info to another site. What if you don't trust Paypal, or if you have Paypal but your artist friend doesn't trust them (and who'd blame them). What about Venmo? Or any of the other dozen micro-transaction facilitators.
It's all friction, you think "man, i'd give this person fifty cents, or five bucks, if I could just click a button to do it" but it's only a button if you've both got the same facilitator. At what point do you just get fucking fed up at how much of a hassle it is to toss a virtual toonie in a virtual hat?
That's my point: For the majority of situations, it takes a sustained act of will, not just a spontaneous impulse, to tip someone electronically in the West. And that pretty much kills the impulse (unless you're a saint).
posted by seanmpuckett at 3:05 PM on October 26, 2022
It's all friction, you think "man, i'd give this person fifty cents, or five bucks, if I could just click a button to do it" but it's only a button if you've both got the same facilitator. At what point do you just get fucking fed up at how much of a hassle it is to toss a virtual toonie in a virtual hat?
That's my point: For the majority of situations, it takes a sustained act of will, not just a spontaneous impulse, to tip someone electronically in the West. And that pretty much kills the impulse (unless you're a saint).
posted by seanmpuckett at 3:05 PM on October 26, 2022
seanmpuckett, thank you.
I prefer to send directly to artists when I can. Cuts out any middleman fees. I wonder if I can use paypal on those sites so I don't have to keep giving my credit card away. One artist I know just told me to send her an Amazon gift card. I try not to Amazon but I was willing to make an exception.
posted by aleph at 5:05 PM on October 26, 2022
I prefer to send directly to artists when I can. Cuts out any middleman fees. I wonder if I can use paypal on those sites so I don't have to keep giving my credit card away. One artist I know just told me to send her an Amazon gift card. I try not to Amazon but I was willing to make an exception.
posted by aleph at 5:05 PM on October 26, 2022
It’s just weird to read a lot of comments saying it’s impossible to do what I’m currently doing and which most of my friends and peers are currently doing.I don't know which community Bottlecap is talking about, and I doubt it's any of the ones that I know, but: yeah, this is happening! There are some incredible thriving art scenes out there. And I don't think it's gatekeeping to go "I mean you probably haven't heard of them," because the ones I know absolutely do not use social media. That's not to be hip, it's because social media sucks unless you want to fucking hustle. And hustling is a full-time job that you sorta have to be good at or else there's no point.
The bit in the linked essay that I immediately highlighted was this part here:
What we’ve mostly experienced with the Internet of the past fifteen years is that the platforms algorithmically funnel everyone’s attention to the same thing. The blockbuster hits have gotten bigger than ever. The niche players, for the most part, still struggle.Kevin Kelly's theory wasn't wrong—it was just rooted in an Internet that's profoundly smaller these days. Corporate control of the internet atomizes everything that isn't corporate interest. To commercially participate on social media, you have to understand that your job is to make yourself a part of that corporate interest—and you probably need a reasonable understanding of just how many people are gunning for the same slot, even after you manipulate all the poor doomed naïve souls of the world.
Everything outside of that? Good fucking luck. Rather: your only hope, and I mean only hope, is to actively foster community. That means understanding what community means in the context of a given social platform—which is why most of the effective practitioners I know isolate to a single useful platform, rather than existing on five sites at once. And then it means work. It means genuinely managing a community. And it means treating that community like it's a serious project, including the part where you very soberly contemplate whether what you're building could possibly become the thing you need it to be.
I have built, over the last six-odd years, a nice little community on a relatively niche social network. On paper, I have 33,000 followers or so; in practice, that number is more like a few hundred tops. Still, not a terrible number! And it's gotten to the point where people pretty consistently ask me to monetize it, not for my sake but because they'd really like me to produce the kind of product that would never be worth my time and effort if I didn't expect to get paid.
That community holds together because, from the start, I operated under the assumption that I couldn't trust the network currents. I didn't trust the algorithm to be my friend; I made it a point to defy whatever the current fad was. My goal was to find people who'd be genuinely committed, and it worked. Meanwhile, at some point I got big enough to befriend a lot of the other would-be influencers on the platform, and... man, it sucks to try and be an influencer. Almost everyone I know who tries to hustle finds themselves continually fucked over by the platform's changing whims, and deeply demoralized to boot. Even the ones who thought they were cynical made the mistake of placing a lot of trust on the way the site itself worked. And you can't do that—not on any social platform. All of them are fucking quicksand.
The spirit of the old Internet was solidarity. Not fad solidarity, but the genuine deal. It was way easier to find back before social networks, because the default "social group" size was approximately zero, so any gathering of people you could find was probably legitimate. (Gaia Online excluded.) Now, a lot of the groups with real social cohesion are harder to track, because there's an insane amount of noise. Some of them manage to hold the fort on Facebook or Insta or Twitter. Some of them use dated and/or weird-as-hell technologies: there are some super-neat social-networking engines that mostly get used by communities with a thousand people at most, but on the flip side, nearly all of those communities are dedicated and real. And some folks avoid the Internet altogether, especially when there's enough local enthusiasm that you can afford not to touch the stuff.
For a while, my goal has been to build a standalone platform for the community I mentioned, and ideally to make it a platform that's way better at helping people like me form communities like this in the first place. I'm wildly excited about that project—you know, for Reasons—but it's been in the works for years, with a fair amount of work to go. And I've had to explain to people why that is: namely, that you can't just whip off a Facebook or a Twitter clone and make a few tweaks and get the kind of social cohesion that Kevin Kelly's theory would have needed to get off the ground. A lot of that corporate atomization is built into the model; to make something genuinely high-tech and solidarity-centric, you're talking about something that looks a lot less like a social network than like a piece of media—think MMOs, or certain fandom-heavy works of art, the kinds of thing where online interaction revolves around something more interesting and engaging than a newsfeed.
There is a lot of room to make an Internet that doesn't function like the modern Internet works. Some of that room will be taken up by things that are just as bad or worse, because a lot of money will be thrown at a lot of companies that want to trap a billion people in a shit-ass house that reflects the worst excesses of the mass-media culture of yore. But that's not the only option—and there's room for positive construction there. A part of me hopes that this dismal generation of Internet options has spawned more people who are interested in making room for weirder, more engaging shit online, ones who won't sell out as appallingly as Ze Frank et al did. And I hope that we discover ways to introduce variety that genuinely catch on, with more corporatist social media functioning as one (big) subculture among many, rather than the monoculture we've got today.
It would be absolutely blinkered to suggest that the last twenty-odd years of Online has been a cheery place to be, but I do think that there's an awful lot of hope for what comes next. And that hope is bolstered every time I see an artist find a way to make it—not just that they make it, but that the specific approach they find is invariably off-beat and weird and seems to defy conventional wisdom in a soul-soothing way that, for me at least, seems to point to a nebulous-but-definite Better Approach that I'm hoping will get more articulate over time.
Anyway: believe me about all that or not, but I will second this notion that the Kevin Kelly thing is in fact happening in quite a few communities, and that the fact that they're not ones that frequently percolate up through social media is not remotely a coincidence.
posted by Tom Hanks Cannot Be Trusted at 5:59 PM on October 26, 2022 [5 favorites]
how does one find these communities? How does one access them if you're not wherever they're physically located, if they're not marketing themselves?
And if you *aren't* monetizing, how does it really bear on the question of supporting yourself with art?
posted by sagc at 6:11 PM on October 26, 2022
And if you *aren't* monetizing, how does it really bear on the question of supporting yourself with art?
posted by sagc at 6:11 PM on October 26, 2022
It sounds very nice, THCBT.
For a few years I was part of a community of artists renting studios in a building. It's a good scene. People mostly leave you alone to make your art. You can wander around with your coffee and say hi, or close your studio door when you want to focus. Proximity effects benefited us all, come for one artist, see there's lots more. There would be joint shows, at which a few people would show up. That shit is getting really expensive now these days, especially in the urban areas. I'm considering it again, but it's hundreds of dollars a month for not much space these days.
I am not sure how that would translate well to the online realm, but it sounds like what you're describing.
posted by seanmpuckett at 6:13 PM on October 26, 2022 [2 favorites]
For a few years I was part of a community of artists renting studios in a building. It's a good scene. People mostly leave you alone to make your art. You can wander around with your coffee and say hi, or close your studio door when you want to focus. Proximity effects benefited us all, come for one artist, see there's lots more. There would be joint shows, at which a few people would show up. That shit is getting really expensive now these days, especially in the urban areas. I'm considering it again, but it's hundreds of dollars a month for not much space these days.
I am not sure how that would translate well to the online realm, but it sounds like what you're describing.
posted by seanmpuckett at 6:13 PM on October 26, 2022 [2 favorites]
I’m taking this thread out of my activity, and frankly if I were more articulate I would have something to say about the gatekeeping on this website directly leading to people being reluctant to share things, and very much not the other way around. The immediate assumption of bad faith rather than just taking someone’s words at face value is *exhausting* and discouraging of community.
Very much this. It’s far from everyone, but there are some people here on MeFi who are having a bad day or whatever and then seem to take it out by nitpicking a post to death.
It’s why I beamed out for a couple years, and have only been dipping my toe back in slightly lately. It’s a big part of why I won’t be kicking in a regular monthly donation, even though I generally like the place.
Ahh well. Lurking mode re-engaged.
posted by DaveP at 7:00 PM on October 26, 2022 [2 favorites]
Kevin Kelly's 2011 essay The Best Magazine Articles Ever has led to hours and hours of enjoyment for me.
posted by neuron at 5:51 PM on October 27, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by neuron at 5:51 PM on October 27, 2022 [1 favorite]
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Anyway, it's pretty grim these days.
posted by seanmpuckett at 2:06 PM on October 25, 2022 [18 favorites]