“It’s completely normal for people to be in the family business”
November 25, 2022 9:23 AM Subscribe
I get the hate and yet I don't. You don't choose your parents. There is natural continuity in part thanks to shared communities / contacts / networks. It might be interesting to take a look at the many, many children of celebs who don't go on in the business.
posted by chavenet at 9:44 AM on November 25, 2022 [6 favorites]
posted by chavenet at 9:44 AM on November 25, 2022 [6 favorites]
The "nepotism" might have gotten them in the door but those that really made it in the industry (whichever industry you're talking about) are the ones who really DID do the work and developed themselves and their craft.
Jason Bonham had all the expected benefits of being John Bonhams's son but there is absolutely no question that he, himself is a world-class drummer.
posted by nathanfhtagn at 9:52 AM on November 25, 2022 [4 favorites]
Jason Bonham had all the expected benefits of being John Bonhams's son but there is absolutely no question that he, himself is a world-class drummer.
posted by nathanfhtagn at 9:52 AM on November 25, 2022 [4 favorites]
I liked the side point about journalism now being a profession for those from wealthy families. It’s not something I’ve heard much about before, but it seems like a situation with much more impact than the children of celebrities getting into Hollywood.
posted by vanitas at 10:00 AM on November 25, 2022 [31 favorites]
posted by vanitas at 10:00 AM on November 25, 2022 [31 favorites]
It's also the case that there are lots of people drawn to showbiz careers who decide to do something else because their parents aren't supportive and convince them success is just too unlikely. Either they can't afford to help someone get started in that field or they just think the probability of success is too low and insist their kids pick something more practical. Whereas most showbiz parents obviously don't have any defensible reason to discourage their kids. It's not like they can use "come on, who do you know who came from our hometown and became a famous actor?"
So much of staying in a difficult line of work is being able to envision one's eventual success. And it so helps to know your parents did it, or your close relative did it, or many of your parents' friends did it. You grow up from a young age knowing for sure that something hard is possible because someone you know to be an ordinary, imperfect human succeeded at it. I can attest to this because most of my aunts were tenured humanities professors. As a kid I just reckoned I would be a professor when I grew up since in my experience most grown women were professors. It took me a while to wrap my head around just how unusual that was.
posted by potrzebie at 10:02 AM on November 25, 2022 [36 favorites]
So much of staying in a difficult line of work is being able to envision one's eventual success. And it so helps to know your parents did it, or your close relative did it, or many of your parents' friends did it. You grow up from a young age knowing for sure that something hard is possible because someone you know to be an ordinary, imperfect human succeeded at it. I can attest to this because most of my aunts were tenured humanities professors. As a kid I just reckoned I would be a professor when I grew up since in my experience most grown women were professors. It took me a while to wrap my head around just how unusual that was.
posted by potrzebie at 10:02 AM on November 25, 2022 [36 favorites]
The people featured, with the exception of Paltrow, don’t have major careers yet. They have some modeling/performing work, but nothing of significance. Lazy reporting but that’s the Daily Beast.
Would anyone accuse Whitney Houston of being a nepo kid? Norah Jones?
posted by Ideefixe at 10:03 AM on November 25, 2022 [4 favorites]
Would anyone accuse Whitney Houston of being a nepo kid? Norah Jones?
posted by Ideefixe at 10:03 AM on November 25, 2022 [4 favorites]
I'm the first person in my family to go to university. I've been sufficiently successful but if I'd come from a more advantageous background then I'd have gone far further, for the same effort on my part.
At the same time, I came from a solidly middle middle class background - stable family with a strong push for education. That's helped me plenty.
No-one does it "their way". No-one comes from nothing. Anyone who says otherwise is a fool.
posted by happyinmotion at 10:11 AM on November 25, 2022 [27 favorites]
At the same time, I came from a solidly middle middle class background - stable family with a strong push for education. That's helped me plenty.
No-one does it "their way". No-one comes from nothing. Anyone who says otherwise is a fool.
posted by happyinmotion at 10:11 AM on November 25, 2022 [27 favorites]
The "nepotism" might have gotten them in the door but those that really made it in the industry (whichever industry you're talking about) are the ones who really DID do the work and developed themselves and their craft.
Exactly. A college friend of mine remarked once that "it's who you know that gets you in the door, but it's WHAT you know that KEEPS you there." And - she wasn't a nepo baby, she was saying this about how one of our professors got her an interview for a job at another university for a position she'd be PERFECT for.
And it was a "who you know" situation that got ME a position right out of college as well, serving as an assistant to Leon Uris - which introduced me to other people and I turned those connections into jobs later on. And - some of those job opportunities I fucked up and lost.
There are indeed advantages to being the child of a famous person. But those advantages are NOT all just nepotism, and that kind of "who you know" connectivity is not only found there.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 10:26 AM on November 25, 2022 [3 favorites]
Exactly. A college friend of mine remarked once that "it's who you know that gets you in the door, but it's WHAT you know that KEEPS you there." And - she wasn't a nepo baby, she was saying this about how one of our professors got her an interview for a job at another university for a position she'd be PERFECT for.
And it was a "who you know" situation that got ME a position right out of college as well, serving as an assistant to Leon Uris - which introduced me to other people and I turned those connections into jobs later on. And - some of those job opportunities I fucked up and lost.
There are indeed advantages to being the child of a famous person. But those advantages are NOT all just nepotism, and that kind of "who you know" connectivity is not only found there.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 10:26 AM on November 25, 2022 [3 favorites]
So much of staying in a difficult line of work is being able to envision one's eventual success. And it so helps to know your parents did it, or your close relative did it, or many of your parents' friends did it. You grow up from a young age knowing for sure that something hard is possible because someone you know to be an ordinary, imperfect human succeeded at it. I can attest to this because most of my aunts were tenured humanities professors. As a kid I just reckoned I would be a professor when I grew up since in my experience most grown women were professors. It took me a while to wrap my head around just how unusual that was.
I agree with this so much, and it also applies to being an MD or a professional athlete.
posted by WaterAndPixels at 10:29 AM on November 25, 2022 [10 favorites]
I agree with this so much, and it also applies to being an MD or a professional athlete.
posted by WaterAndPixels at 10:29 AM on November 25, 2022 [10 favorites]
Yes - I have a friend who works with medical students and has said that that’s the reason so many of them are children of doctors themselves. It’s not so much that the parents took any specific action on their behalf; it’s just that the idea of becoming a doctor is perfectly pedestrian to them, whereas for most people it’s this lofty nigh-unimaginable thing.
posted by showbiz_liz at 10:35 AM on November 25, 2022 [11 favorites]
posted by showbiz_liz at 10:35 AM on November 25, 2022 [11 favorites]
Avoiding pitfalls is a good thing.
posted by hypnogogue at 10:36 AM on November 25, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by hypnogogue at 10:36 AM on November 25, 2022 [1 favorite]
Searched 'murdoch' - no results
Searched 'walton' - no results
Searched 'devos' - no results
Searched 'koch' - no results
Searched 'trump' - one passing mention
With the all the damage to this world being done by family dynasties in the political and business worlds, great job on calling out a bunch of celebrities, now that's fighting the real enemy. I'd love to see the pedigrees of the masthead of the Daily Beast, betting we'll see PLENTY of inspirational rags-to-riches stories there.
posted by hangashore at 10:42 AM on November 25, 2022 [43 favorites]
Searched 'walton' - no results
Searched 'devos' - no results
Searched 'koch' - no results
Searched 'trump' - one passing mention
With the all the damage to this world being done by family dynasties in the political and business worlds, great job on calling out a bunch of celebrities, now that's fighting the real enemy. I'd love to see the pedigrees of the masthead of the Daily Beast, betting we'll see PLENTY of inspirational rags-to-riches stories there.
posted by hangashore at 10:42 AM on November 25, 2022 [43 favorites]
I liked the side point about journalism now being a profession for those from wealthy families.
That's the point I came in to hammer on. It's really, really bad for society. The Canadian journalism scene is absolutely rotten with this.
I think there's a solid distinction between the family business as a trade, and the family business as "well-connected bourgeoisie" here, who I don't see mentioned in that article at all.
posted by mhoye at 10:44 AM on November 25, 2022 [22 favorites]
That's the point I came in to hammer on. It's really, really bad for society. The Canadian journalism scene is absolutely rotten with this.
I think there's a solid distinction between the family business as a trade, and the family business as "well-connected bourgeoisie" here, who I don't see mentioned in that article at all.
posted by mhoye at 10:44 AM on November 25, 2022 [22 favorites]
There’s nothing new about nepotism, first coined in the 14th or 15th century to describe the corrupt tactic of childless popes assigning prominent positions in the Catholic Church to their nephews.
Shouldn’t nephews be in quotes?
Searched 'murdoch' - no results
Searched 'walton' - no results
Searched 'devos' - no results
Searched 'koch' - no results
Searched 'trump' - one passing mention
Try ‘Charles’
posted by TedW at 10:54 AM on November 25, 2022 [6 favorites]
Shouldn’t nephews be in quotes?
Searched 'murdoch' - no results
Searched 'walton' - no results
Searched 'devos' - no results
Searched 'koch' - no results
Searched 'trump' - one passing mention
Try ‘Charles’
posted by TedW at 10:54 AM on November 25, 2022 [6 favorites]
(and to clarify my comment above, it's the Daily Beast who is the target of my disgruntlement, not any of the comments here, and thanks to girlmightlive for the post!)
posted by hangashore at 10:59 AM on November 25, 2022
posted by hangashore at 10:59 AM on November 25, 2022
So much of staying in a difficult line of work is being able to envision one's eventual success.
This is a good point. I literally can't envision myself succeeding at what I want to do, because I can't see how to get from A to B, much less A to Z, people IRL just live boring normal jobs and that's all we do so we can have our health insurance. Nobody I know "makes it" here in anything I'd find interesting.
posted by jenfullmoon at 11:04 AM on November 25, 2022 [9 favorites]
This is a good point. I literally can't envision myself succeeding at what I want to do, because I can't see how to get from A to B, much less A to Z, people IRL just live boring normal jobs and that's all we do so we can have our health insurance. Nobody I know "makes it" here in anything I'd find interesting.
posted by jenfullmoon at 11:04 AM on November 25, 2022 [9 favorites]
Of course it helps open the door; that doesn’t guarantee success.
posted by tgrundke at 11:06 AM on November 25, 2022
posted by tgrundke at 11:06 AM on November 25, 2022
None of this explains Nicolas Cage.
posted by JoeZydeco at 11:08 AM on November 25, 2022 [8 favorites]
posted by JoeZydeco at 11:08 AM on November 25, 2022 [8 favorites]
No one has to buy it, but on the other hand, they aren't on the casting couch either, and it's OK to pursue a career in the family business. It's OK, and calling them out for their good fortune is sorta bitter at best, and the journalist is biting the hand that feeds them. What is really skank, is digging up the dead, recording artists who never got their due, after "Blue," hit the top of the charts, to monetize the work of folks who will definitely not profit from it.
Nepots they aren't complaining over Jeff and Beau Bridges, Robert Downey Junior, Jane and Peter Fonda, Carrie Fisher, Kiefer Sutherland, Michael Douglas, Angelina Jolie, Charlie Sheen, Emilio Estevez, Drew Barrymore, anyway...the kids are alright.
posted by Oyéah at 11:14 AM on November 25, 2022 [3 favorites]
Nepots they aren't complaining over Jeff and Beau Bridges, Robert Downey Junior, Jane and Peter Fonda, Carrie Fisher, Kiefer Sutherland, Michael Douglas, Angelina Jolie, Charlie Sheen, Emilio Estevez, Drew Barrymore, anyway...the kids are alright.
posted by Oyéah at 11:14 AM on November 25, 2022 [3 favorites]
Nepotism is annoying when people without talent or smarts "make it", especially as it in all likelihood means someone more talented but connection-less was denied an opportunity, which makes all of us poorer. I'm not sure in the entertainment industries that's especially critical, but nepotism exists everywhere and makes lots of people's lives much worse (many of us have worked in places where our boss or our bosses' boss is the failchild of the company founder, for example).
posted by maxwelton at 11:23 AM on November 25, 2022 [8 favorites]
posted by maxwelton at 11:23 AM on November 25, 2022 [8 favorites]
Probably because the list of people you mentioned are actually talented? Maybe the complaint is that people are benefiting from nepotism when they are not talented?
posted by jenfullmoon at 11:24 AM on November 25, 2022 [7 favorites]
posted by jenfullmoon at 11:24 AM on November 25, 2022 [7 favorites]
The "nepotism" might have gotten them in the door
Yes but, getting in the door is basically impossible for most of us proles no matter how good we are.
posted by octothorpe at 11:25 AM on November 25, 2022 [61 favorites]
Yes but, getting in the door is basically impossible for most of us proles no matter how good we are.
posted by octothorpe at 11:25 AM on November 25, 2022 [61 favorites]
There are tons of people who dream of being actors, but they have basically no chance.
Also with acting it is much much more subjective.
Like what percentage of large salary actors are children of the rich actors/producers vs the millions of people who want to be actors?
Compare that to like basketball players, what percentage of the large salary players are children of rich basketball players/team owners?
shouldnt those basketball children have the same? "it’s just that the idea of becoming a doctor is perfectly pedestrian to them, whereas for most people it’s this lofty nigh-unimaginable thing."
posted by Iax at 11:33 AM on November 25, 2022 [3 favorites]
Also with acting it is much much more subjective.
Like what percentage of large salary actors are children of the rich actors/producers vs the millions of people who want to be actors?
Compare that to like basketball players, what percentage of the large salary players are children of rich basketball players/team owners?
shouldnt those basketball children have the same? "it’s just that the idea of becoming a doctor is perfectly pedestrian to them, whereas for most people it’s this lofty nigh-unimaginable thing."
posted by Iax at 11:33 AM on November 25, 2022 [3 favorites]
I read either an article or a tweet thread pinning the dominance of nepo babies (talented or otherwise) in the entertainment industry directly to the lack of economic mobility in the past few decades.
This was exactly my thought when reading the argument about how 'being in the family business' is how last names became a thing. Like yeah, 400 years ago your name was Black because your dad was a blacksmith and you literally had no options to feed your own kids other than going into the family business. It's not a WRONG comparison, but I don't think the person making it realized what a damning indictment it is of our society.
posted by solotoro at 11:33 AM on November 25, 2022 [5 favorites]
This was exactly my thought when reading the argument about how 'being in the family business' is how last names became a thing. Like yeah, 400 years ago your name was Black because your dad was a blacksmith and you literally had no options to feed your own kids other than going into the family business. It's not a WRONG comparison, but I don't think the person making it realized what a damning indictment it is of our society.
posted by solotoro at 11:33 AM on November 25, 2022 [5 favorites]
Academia is like this too. At my program I think like half the cohort had academic parents. They also would sublet their apartment for more than the stipend. They’re now the ones with academic jobs. Me and many others went to the private sector where we can actually afford to live.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 11:37 AM on November 25, 2022 [10 favorites]
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 11:37 AM on November 25, 2022 [10 favorites]
"Any time there's any nepotism discourse, I do unfortunately feel the need to revisit Brooklyn Beckham’s photography book" (which was referenced in the article)
That elephant photo is indeed... impressive. A few tweets down someone shows it turned upside down, which markedly improves the photo.
Probably because the list of people you mentioned are actually talented? Maybe the complaint is that people are benefiting from nepotism when they are not talented?
It's also that because one person gets the advantages of nepotism, another person who is equally talented is shut out and doesn't even get to compete. That's the largest problem, in my eyes. It diminishes opportunities and it diminishes the range of talented people we get to see in movies or work with in whatever other industry.
I also feel like some comments here are downplaying the advantage of getting in the door. I don't care how good of an actor I might be, there's no way I'm getting in the same doors as someone whose parent is famous at the level of Lenny Kravitz or Johnny Depp, particularly when starting out.
Just like with the current reliance on sequels and franchises in the film industry, I suspect the prominence of nepotism has a lot to do with the perceived need to present only "safe" entertainment options, where people are guaranteed to watch the familiar and comforting but aren't guaranteed to show up for something new or different.
posted by Dip Flash at 11:37 AM on November 25, 2022 [27 favorites]
That elephant photo is indeed... impressive. A few tweets down someone shows it turned upside down, which markedly improves the photo.
Probably because the list of people you mentioned are actually talented? Maybe the complaint is that people are benefiting from nepotism when they are not talented?
It's also that because one person gets the advantages of nepotism, another person who is equally talented is shut out and doesn't even get to compete. That's the largest problem, in my eyes. It diminishes opportunities and it diminishes the range of talented people we get to see in movies or work with in whatever other industry.
I also feel like some comments here are downplaying the advantage of getting in the door. I don't care how good of an actor I might be, there's no way I'm getting in the same doors as someone whose parent is famous at the level of Lenny Kravitz or Johnny Depp, particularly when starting out.
Just like with the current reliance on sequels and franchises in the film industry, I suspect the prominence of nepotism has a lot to do with the perceived need to present only "safe" entertainment options, where people are guaranteed to watch the familiar and comforting but aren't guaranteed to show up for something new or different.
posted by Dip Flash at 11:37 AM on November 25, 2022 [27 favorites]
Actually, it's only called "nepotism" if it's from the Nepot region of France. Otherwise, it's just sparkling privilege.
But I'll eat the rich either way.
posted by AlSweigart at 11:44 AM on November 25, 2022 [48 favorites]
But I'll eat the rich either way.
posted by AlSweigart at 11:44 AM on November 25, 2022 [48 favorites]
I really didn't think that I'd see so many people on Metafilter defending nepotism.
posted by octothorpe at 11:49 AM on November 25, 2022 [51 favorites]
posted by octothorpe at 11:49 AM on November 25, 2022 [51 favorites]
As if you guys didn't know that Jessamyn comes from a long line of Filters.
posted by gwint at 11:57 AM on November 25, 2022 [25 favorites]
posted by gwint at 11:57 AM on November 25, 2022 [25 favorites]
I can't agree more with what Dip Flash said; I don't really know anything about the careers of the celebs in the article, but even assuming they're all qualified to hold their positions, do you really think
- they'd all have gotten the same opportunities without their famous parents?
- there's no one without famous parents who couldn't have done even better given the same opportunity?
Just because it's not Trump-level unqualified doesn't mean it's not harmful to have so much locked up in generational dynasties, and it's really eye-rolling for incredibly privileged people to be whining about how they pulled themselves up by their bootstraps even if they acknowledge that they did get really nice bootstraps from their parents.
posted by Ickster at 12:04 PM on November 25, 2022 [21 favorites]
- they'd all have gotten the same opportunities without their famous parents?
- there's no one without famous parents who couldn't have done even better given the same opportunity?
Just because it's not Trump-level unqualified doesn't mean it's not harmful to have so much locked up in generational dynasties, and it's really eye-rolling for incredibly privileged people to be whining about how they pulled themselves up by their bootstraps even if they acknowledge that they did get really nice bootstraps from their parents.
posted by Ickster at 12:04 PM on November 25, 2022 [21 favorites]
It's also that because one person gets the advantages of nepotism, another person who is equally talented is shut out and doesn't even get to compete. That's the largest problem, in my eyes. It diminishes opportunities and it diminishes the range of talented people we get to see in movies or work with in whatever other industry.Hear, hear. Even if everyone who got a foot in the door through nepotism must eventually succeed or fail on their actual abilities, getting a foot in the door in these industries is hard. Zoe Kravitz is talented, absolutely, but I'd bet my life there are several thousand totally unknown actors just as talented who would do as well or better l if they could get in front of casting directors, producers, etc, as reliably as she could before she built a resume.
Nepotism means not having to worry about making the perfect first impression, or being dismissed forever because the first time somebody took a chance on you it didn't pan out. And having rich parents means you can keep trying to make it in a competitive field without steady income for as long as it takes, which is also a big stumbling block for other people (see above re: journalism as a rich-kid hobby).
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 12:04 PM on November 25, 2022 [23 favorites]
I really didn't think that I'd see so many people on Metafilter defending nepotism.
You don’t last in the entertainment industry unless you bring in the audience. It is notoriously unforgiving that way.
Acknowledging that nepotism opens doors for people is important, but pretending that they are continuing to thrive without significant talent is just bitterness speaking.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 12:10 PM on November 25, 2022 [2 favorites]
You don’t last in the entertainment industry unless you bring in the audience. It is notoriously unforgiving that way.
Acknowledging that nepotism opens doors for people is important, but pretending that they are continuing to thrive without significant talent is just bitterness speaking.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 12:10 PM on November 25, 2022 [2 favorites]
The fact is that they are probably blocking someone who has more talent. Sure they meet the bar, but are they the most talented person that could have been selected? No, because the process by which the options were presented is fucked.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 12:15 PM on November 25, 2022 [13 favorites]
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 12:15 PM on November 25, 2022 [13 favorites]
Metafilter: unless they got everything from nepotism and used it to destroy the world, I guess we judged the nepobabies too harshly.
Privledge respects privledge
posted by anecdotal_grand_theory at 12:18 PM on November 25, 2022 [5 favorites]
Privledge respects privledge
posted by anecdotal_grand_theory at 12:18 PM on November 25, 2022 [5 favorites]
A college friend of mine remarked once that "it's who you know that gets you in the door, but it's WHAT you know that KEEPS you there."
Maybe, to some small extent, in the creative arts. But in finance? Politics? Big Business? Ivy League Universities? Naw, it's pretty much who you know that gets you in and keeps you there.
posted by Saxon Kane at 12:19 PM on November 25, 2022 [15 favorites]
Maybe, to some small extent, in the creative arts. But in finance? Politics? Big Business? Ivy League Universities? Naw, it's pretty much who you know that gets you in and keeps you there.
posted by Saxon Kane at 12:19 PM on November 25, 2022 [15 favorites]
I'm sorry. I'm way less concerned about nepotism in the performing arts than about nepotism in politics and big business. The US has political dynasties spanning four generations, and I'm supposed to be mad at Emilio Estevez?
posted by Faint of Butt at 12:22 PM on November 25, 2022 [31 favorites]
posted by Faint of Butt at 12:22 PM on November 25, 2022 [31 favorites]
Aren't there multiple factors blocking the "most talented people" from having roles, some of which have to do with demonstrated audience preference? Part of how front of the camera nepotism works is lookism.
posted by Selena777 at 12:28 PM on November 25, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by Selena777 at 12:28 PM on November 25, 2022 [1 favorite]
The fact is that they are probably blocking someone who has more talent. Sure they meet the bar, but are they the most talented person that could have been selected? No, because the process by which the options were presented is fucked.
I'm not denying that that's unfair. It is unfair.
It is also not the only thing blocking talented people from getting their break. Not being able to get off work and go to an audition, not having a conventional "look", not living in a particular city, etc. - those are also reasons talented people are not getting seen.
And that's not even getting into the whole issue of actors who are deaf, blind, have limb differences, etc.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 12:38 PM on November 25, 2022 [3 favorites]
I'm not denying that that's unfair. It is unfair.
It is also not the only thing blocking talented people from getting their break. Not being able to get off work and go to an audition, not having a conventional "look", not living in a particular city, etc. - those are also reasons talented people are not getting seen.
And that's not even getting into the whole issue of actors who are deaf, blind, have limb differences, etc.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 12:38 PM on November 25, 2022 [3 favorites]
The real advantage of nepotism isn't necessarily just the connections for success, it is the shortcut to the knowledge of what is good, an expert opinion to critique your mistakes, and the support and time to make those mistakes. It is the shortcut and the training for excellence - the connections for adjacent teachers, it is the intangible space for success. This exists across fields, but given that there are a limited number of positions possible in Hollywood or Broadway - any specific help up within an industry cuts the pool that much further.
There is almost always room for more engineers, or more management consultant, or more software engineers - and the knowledge to get a pedigree into those fields is straight forward to a family already in those fields... but - for every Hollywood dynasty, that is one less kid from Iowa making their LA dreams come true.
posted by Nanukthedog at 12:44 PM on November 25, 2022 [6 favorites]
There is almost always room for more engineers, or more management consultant, or more software engineers - and the knowledge to get a pedigree into those fields is straight forward to a family already in those fields... but - for every Hollywood dynasty, that is one less kid from Iowa making their LA dreams come true.
posted by Nanukthedog at 12:44 PM on November 25, 2022 [6 favorites]
And that's not even getting into the whole issue of actors who are deaf, blind, have limb differences, etc.
Whenever a major disabled character is played by an abled actor, there are protests about this. What the suits are thinking, if it's anything printable,* is that there is no disabled actor who is bankable in this way, who has the portfolio and name to carry a major role. This is improving by inches -- there's Peter Dinklage, there's Marlee Matlin -- but not enough. They're certainly out there, taking smaller roles and living in other markets, but there's no incentive to hunt them unless a director has a notion to. (The talent on display in AHS: Freak Show, whatever you might think of the show itself, was just amazing.) Directors can just cast an actor who's willing to wear a lot of makeup and maybe say they're sorry about it afterward.
This is all because, year after year and day after day, the suits don't look around and see disabled people in the proverbial room. And the more dynastic actors in that room, the fewer disabled persons there will be.
-----
* see Sia's remarks about casting Music, if you have the stomach for that whole situation
posted by Countess Elena at 12:58 PM on November 25, 2022 [9 favorites]
Whenever a major disabled character is played by an abled actor, there are protests about this. What the suits are thinking, if it's anything printable,* is that there is no disabled actor who is bankable in this way, who has the portfolio and name to carry a major role. This is improving by inches -- there's Peter Dinklage, there's Marlee Matlin -- but not enough. They're certainly out there, taking smaller roles and living in other markets, but there's no incentive to hunt them unless a director has a notion to. (The talent on display in AHS: Freak Show, whatever you might think of the show itself, was just amazing.) Directors can just cast an actor who's willing to wear a lot of makeup and maybe say they're sorry about it afterward.
This is all because, year after year and day after day, the suits don't look around and see disabled people in the proverbial room. And the more dynastic actors in that room, the fewer disabled persons there will be.
-----
* see Sia's remarks about casting Music, if you have the stomach for that whole situation
posted by Countess Elena at 12:58 PM on November 25, 2022 [9 favorites]
Somehow a copy of the absurd apologia "In Praise of Nepotism" by Adam Bellow (yes, of course that Bellow) wound up on my bookshelf. It's probably 20 years since I read it but recall it being uniquely void of any forms of convincing argument, which seems at odds with the basic premise of the book.
posted by St. Oops at 12:58 PM on November 25, 2022 [3 favorites]
posted by St. Oops at 12:58 PM on November 25, 2022 [3 favorites]
The "nepotism" might have gotten them in the door but those that really made it in the industry (whichever industry you're talking about) are the ones who really DID do the work and developed themselves and their craft.
All of this seems like missing the point. Talented people who would like to have an opportunity in entertainment far outnumber those who actually get one. Of the people who get one through personal connections, of course some succeed and some fail. It’s not merely success, that’s held against the ones who succeed, though, it’s having taken a shortcut to get their shot in the first place. People hold it against the failures, too, but that means a few years of schadenfreude before they disappear.
posted by atoxyl at 1:14 PM on November 25, 2022 [2 favorites]
All of this seems like missing the point. Talented people who would like to have an opportunity in entertainment far outnumber those who actually get one. Of the people who get one through personal connections, of course some succeed and some fail. It’s not merely success, that’s held against the ones who succeed, though, it’s having taken a shortcut to get their shot in the first place. People hold it against the failures, too, but that means a few years of schadenfreude before they disappear.
posted by atoxyl at 1:14 PM on November 25, 2022 [2 favorites]
I don't hold anything against the talented people that have these advantages. It'd be a bit rich coming from an upper-middle-class white guy. I can't really avoid benefiting from my privilege.
It's the system that supports it I have a problem with.
posted by VTX at 1:31 PM on November 25, 2022 [4 favorites]
It's the system that supports it I have a problem with.
posted by VTX at 1:31 PM on November 25, 2022 [4 favorites]
Got to say I don't care that much about nepotism in the entertainment industry, it's not ideal, and it's not fair but it's also not essential to a functioning society.
One other unfair thing, besides the connections, is that by virtue of being the son/daughter of somebody famous you already possess some bankability and are celebrity adjacent, which probably pushes your value compared to possibly more talented artists born from unknown parents. Artists aren't always hire based solely on talent/ability, and even that's in part due to the fact that people seem to love to see actors they know so being known has some value.
posted by WaterAndPixels at 1:32 PM on November 25, 2022
One other unfair thing, besides the connections, is that by virtue of being the son/daughter of somebody famous you already possess some bankability and are celebrity adjacent, which probably pushes your value compared to possibly more talented artists born from unknown parents. Artists aren't always hire based solely on talent/ability, and even that's in part due to the fact that people seem to love to see actors they know so being known has some value.
posted by WaterAndPixels at 1:32 PM on November 25, 2022
Somewhat in a similar vein, I really love the "Self-Made is a Toxic Myth" series by vattica on tiktok. He shows how Taylor Swift didn't just pop up out of nowhere in Nashville, but had wealthy parents who hired songwriting coaches, moved to Nashville, and purchased an ownership stake in her debut record label. They gave her the opportunities to succeed without having to worry about paying rent, or not having a fallback option. He also shows how Kid Rock came straight out of a 6000sq foot mansion and not, as he claims, "straight out the trailer." It doesn't discount the TONS of hard work and real skill of famous musicians, but shows that musicians/artists without a leg up shouldn't get discouraged if they're not blowing up. It's a great series.
posted by onehalfjunco at 1:41 PM on November 25, 2022 [24 favorites]
posted by onehalfjunco at 1:41 PM on November 25, 2022 [24 favorites]
Defending any aspect of nepotism is saying, "Sure they cheated, but they probably would have won anyway so it's not a big deal."
posted by AlSweigart at 2:03 PM on November 25, 2022 [13 favorites]
posted by AlSweigart at 2:03 PM on November 25, 2022 [13 favorites]
CTRL+F "Barrymore" = no results. Hmmm.
The term may be new but the problem predates the entertainment industry as we know it because it wasn't new when film was new. Drew Barrymore's paternal great-grandfather and his wife (her ggma) were stage actors and their kids made the leap from stage to film. Good for the Gen Z kids for having some feelings about not admitting to the nepotism advantage, but also, like Faint of Butt, I'm ready to see this scrutiny brought to political dynasties.
posted by gentlyepigrams at 2:04 PM on November 25, 2022 [2 favorites]
The term may be new but the problem predates the entertainment industry as we know it because it wasn't new when film was new. Drew Barrymore's paternal great-grandfather and his wife (her ggma) were stage actors and their kids made the leap from stage to film. Good for the Gen Z kids for having some feelings about not admitting to the nepotism advantage, but also, like Faint of Butt, I'm ready to see this scrutiny brought to political dynasties.
posted by gentlyepigrams at 2:04 PM on November 25, 2022 [2 favorites]
Nepots they aren't complaining over... Jane and Peter Fonda
As a side note, I learned this week that Bridget Fonda, who was fairly prominent in the nineties, retired entirely from the business they call show in 2002.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 2:24 PM on November 25, 2022
As a side note, I learned this week that Bridget Fonda, who was fairly prominent in the nineties, retired entirely from the business they call show in 2002.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 2:24 PM on November 25, 2022
It's probably 20 years since I read it but recall it being uniquely void of any forms of convincing argument, which seems at odds with the basic premise of the book.
Adam Bellow, son of noted novelist Saul Bellow, was able to get a vapid, hollow treatise about the nobility of nepotism published?
Wow, that’s pretty crazy. I wonder how that happened.
posted by mhoye at 2:30 PM on November 25, 2022 [19 favorites]
Adam Bellow, son of noted novelist Saul Bellow, was able to get a vapid, hollow treatise about the nobility of nepotism published?
Wow, that’s pretty crazy. I wonder how that happened.
posted by mhoye at 2:30 PM on November 25, 2022 [19 favorites]
Hmmmm...I listened to the "Even the Rich" podcast series on Drew Barrymore recently and I wonder how much nepotism advantage she had as a child, other than having the last name of Barrymore. Her father was a horrible turd who was around next to never and had zero use for her other than to hit her up for money, and was a general life failure, and it doesn't sound like she had any family on that side exactly networking on her behalf then? (Not mentioned in the podcast, anyway. Wikipedia mentions famous godparents.) Wikipedia notes that she has three other half-siblings on her dad's side, two of which aren't on Wikipedia and the one that is doesn't sound like he's done well. Talent clearly ran in the gene pool, but also along with addiction up the wazoo. Any Barrymore talent/name advantage is probably equal to the issue of addiction and having to pull yourself out of that particular abyss. Plusses and minusses.
I don't know what you could do about nepotism. "Knowing somebody," whether or not they are blood related, has always been an advantage in all fields.
posted by jenfullmoon at 2:30 PM on November 25, 2022 [1 favorite]
I don't know what you could do about nepotism. "Knowing somebody," whether or not they are blood related, has always been an advantage in all fields.
posted by jenfullmoon at 2:30 PM on November 25, 2022 [1 favorite]
Compare that to like basketball players, what percentage of the large salary players are children of rich basketball players/team owners?
If you need an example of nepotism in big-money sports, look no further than coaching jobs in the NFL.
posted by peeedro at 3:21 PM on November 25, 2022 [2 favorites]
If you need an example of nepotism in big-money sports, look no further than coaching jobs in the NFL.
posted by peeedro at 3:21 PM on November 25, 2022 [2 favorites]
The Prime Minister of my country is Justin Trudeau. His father was a Prime Minister of Canada. Justin had about 0 in the way of accomplishments before being elected as a member of Parliament and what made him the leader of his party is that he won a boxing match against a senator from the other main party.
The Premier of my province is Doug Ford. His father started a label business and became a local politician. Doug completed high school and had some community college before working at the family business and eventually entering politics.
The mayor of my city is John Tory. His grandfather founded one of the city's big law firms. His father worked at that firm before working for Roy Thomson, the Thomson of Thomson Reuters. His father was also good friends with Ted Rogers, the head of one of Canada's main media and telecom companies. John Tory started working for Rogers and after going to law school he worked at the family law firm but went back to work at Rogers at increasingly senior positions whenever his other ventures didn't pan out. Somehow he still draws a salary from Rogers while being mayor of the city where Rogers is headquartered and owns significant assets.
Now these are capable people (to some degree, if nothing else they are capable of winning elections) but goddamn if it isn't frustrating to realize that we are only going to have a deteriorating version of the status quo for as long as these guys, and the hundreds or thousands of ready replacements out there with similar pedigrees, are running things.
posted by any portmanteau in a storm at 3:35 PM on November 25, 2022 [21 favorites]
The Premier of my province is Doug Ford. His father started a label business and became a local politician. Doug completed high school and had some community college before working at the family business and eventually entering politics.
The mayor of my city is John Tory. His grandfather founded one of the city's big law firms. His father worked at that firm before working for Roy Thomson, the Thomson of Thomson Reuters. His father was also good friends with Ted Rogers, the head of one of Canada's main media and telecom companies. John Tory started working for Rogers and after going to law school he worked at the family law firm but went back to work at Rogers at increasingly senior positions whenever his other ventures didn't pan out. Somehow he still draws a salary from Rogers while being mayor of the city where Rogers is headquartered and owns significant assets.
Now these are capable people (to some degree, if nothing else they are capable of winning elections) but goddamn if it isn't frustrating to realize that we are only going to have a deteriorating version of the status quo for as long as these guys, and the hundreds or thousands of ready replacements out there with similar pedigrees, are running things.
posted by any portmanteau in a storm at 3:35 PM on November 25, 2022 [21 favorites]
While the teen me felt otherwise, I am so glad I have normal, non-famous parents. While I may not be heir to a political dynasty or Hollywood royalty, I was raised with good ethics and a great work ethic. I’m not saying nepobabies don’t have that too but I’m so glad to avoid all the toxicity that so often comes from these rich and famous parents.
posted by smorgasbord at 4:31 PM on November 25, 2022 [3 favorites]
posted by smorgasbord at 4:31 PM on November 25, 2022 [3 favorites]
I think that the default setting for most people is that they attribute their own success to hard work and that of others (frequently, if not mostly) to luck, whether it's being a member of the Lucky Sperm Club or whatever. It's probably a mix of both, the proportions depending on how most other people in that profession enter it. Save for hereditary monarchies, the role of nepotism is probably exaggerated. (Look at how many Kennedys and Bushes weren't particularly successful at politics, or anything in general.)
posted by Halloween Jack at 5:28 PM on November 25, 2022
posted by Halloween Jack at 5:28 PM on November 25, 2022
CTRL+F "Barrymore" = no results. Hmmm.
Reading about the Barrymores you'll eventually get to the chapters on Diana and John Drew. Their name got them in the door, but things didn't go so well for them once they got there.
posted by The Underpants Monster at 5:55 PM on November 25, 2022
Reading about the Barrymores you'll eventually get to the chapters on Diana and John Drew. Their name got them in the door, but things didn't go so well for them once they got there.
posted by The Underpants Monster at 5:55 PM on November 25, 2022
I'd like to see one of these articles deal with Hollywood privilege by comparing these nepotism cases to the success rate of aspiring actors who grew up in LA with wealthy parents not in the business.
It's clear that growing up a Hawke or a Hanks helps Vs growing up a nobody from Ohio. I'd like to know how much it helps Vs being an Unknown from same LA neighborhood, attending the same school, whose parents are lawyers/doctors or have a very successful construction business.
posted by kandinski at 6:10 PM on November 25, 2022 [4 favorites]
It's clear that growing up a Hawke or a Hanks helps Vs growing up a nobody from Ohio. I'd like to know how much it helps Vs being an Unknown from same LA neighborhood, attending the same school, whose parents are lawyers/doctors or have a very successful construction business.
posted by kandinski at 6:10 PM on November 25, 2022 [4 favorites]
The Flying Wallendas, nepoting since 1780.
posted by Oyéah at 7:08 PM on November 25, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by Oyéah at 7:08 PM on November 25, 2022 [2 favorites]
I think some of you don't read the celebrity/gossip press -- while obviously generational dynasties in government or business (or Apartheid emerald money) are much bigger issues, there's been a BIG discourse about nepo babies in Hollywood and related industries lately, partly due to some VERY SULKY nepo babies giving 100% tone deaf interviews, with what in other industries we would call Dunning-Kruger syndrome. I'm going to be talking more about women than men in this comment, not because there are more female nepo babies, just because I'm a lot more interested in women's work in Hollywood than men's and in the social commentary on women's work, so a lot more women who've been in the nepo-baby discourse are at the top of my mind because I'm more interested in their careers.
Lily-Rose Depp, who's mentioned in the article, was one interview that I snorted at at the time she gave it, because she was talking about working SO HARD and nobody appreciating her hard work because of her famous dad, which a) she gave during the Amber Heard trials/aftermath, so attention to a pretty dumb, routine interview was unfairly concentrated on it BUT ALSO gender discourse about it was 100% unavoidable and she walked right into it, and b) SHE IS 5'2" AND DOING RUNWAYS FOR CHANEL -- typical runway models have to be at least 5'10". Literally nobody but Lily-Rose Depp thinks Lily-Rose Depp would be a runway model if not for her famous name, but she's VERY OFFENDED (in PUBLIC, when she has a PR TEAM to TELL HER NOT TO SAY IT) that anybody would think being famous has anything to do with her modeling success.
It's not just about Hollywood/acting dynasties (Tippi Hedron - Melanie Griffith - Dakota Johnson; Debbie Reynolds - Carrie Fisher - Billie Lourde), but also about
how much in the public eye the children have been -- the Beckham children have very much been part of their parents' fame for their entire lives.
how unusual their names are -- Lily Collins (of "Emily in Paris") is an undoubted beneficiary of Phil Collins being in the business, but the public are typically surprised to learn she's Phil Collins's daughter (even if Hollywood people aren't), even though she started acting pretty young
whether they worked their way up, starting with small roles, or whether they just immediately became stars because of the name. Bryce Dallas Howard did theater camps, regional theater, Tisch at NYU, repertoire theater, extra roles on movies, one-line roles, third-leads, etc., gradually working her way up to blockbusters.
how good they are at their chosen job (Zoe Kravitz is a good actor, which makes the nepo-baby discourse around her much less of a thing, although she's given a few not-great quotes)
most crucially, how clueless/entitled they are about their family connections in interviews intended for public consumption. (Oliver Hudson is sharply self-aware and frankly hilarious.)
Lily-Rose Depp and Brooklyn Beckham are at the extreme end of "I must be very good at what I do because I am already famous, and also I will whine about people not appreciating my genius in the press." Bryce Dallas Howard, otoh, has always been straightforward about how growing up with Ron Howard as her dad was a "best-case scenario" for a child interested in acting, and how it gave her a huge leg up. Dan Levy has also been super-clear about how being Eugene Levy's child has made his entire career possible, and how Schitt's Creek would never have happened otherwise.
So the whole "nepo baby" conversation isn't just about "actors' kids have a better chance of being actors" or about "look how entitled these people are!" but a whole complex conversation about talent, opportunity, parental connections, privilege, hard work, humility, and awareness of their luck -- as embodied by individual children of famous people, whose parents had different amounts of fame, who have different levels of talent, who suffered in various ways for their fame or their parents' fame. (Lily Collins has struggled with a serious eating disorder because of growing up in the public eye; Melanie Griffith was literally mauled by a fucking lion in service to her parents' artistic endeavors.) North West could grow up to be the best actress of her generation, but will anyone ever take any of the Kardashian children seriously at anything? They've probably been way too famous since way too young; they'll always be considered feckless Brooklyn Beckhams, even if by some miracle they aren't.
And it's also about, you have an entire PR team, your parents have an entire PR team, your studio has an entire PR team, and you're still out here, an actor who would struggle to get promoted from soap operas if they didn't have a "name," sulking about how nobody ever handed you anything when you're a Chanel brand ambassador at 5'2" or getting cast in major roles with no prior experience. There's an entire subgenre of nepo-baby actors talking about how they've always had to audition -- FOR THEIR FAMOUS PARENT'S PROJECT. Yes, Scott Eastwood, congratulations on being handed nothing because you were forced to audition for Clint's films. Mark Consuelos's son Matthew had to audition to play a younger version of his father in a flashback on Riverdale, which he was really nervous about. Candace Cameron Bure's daughter has played a relative of her mom in a bunch of Hallmark-type movies, but insists she always has to audition and it's never a sure thing -- as if Candace Cameron Bure wasn't the surest thing in a Hallmark movie for FIFTEEN YEARS and couldn't make whatever demands she wanted to.
Anyway, it's part of a larger discourse on social mobility, entitlement, inherited wealth and power, etc. -- and it's also in many ways the most visible end of that discourse, because Hollywood celebrities have always been products packaged for our consumption via the media. And while a lot of Americans have little to no opinion on the policies and effectiveness of George W. Bush, or the history of Koch industries, everybody has opinions on movies and TV shows and the actors in them. So it's a hell of a lot easier to say, "Hey, this actor isn't very good -- I think they're only in this movie because their dad directed it!" There's also a lot of discourse around sorting people into deserving and undeserving nepo babies. Zoe Kravitz, Bryce Dallas Howard, Dan Levy, Sofia Coppola are deserving; Brooklyn Beckham and Lily-Rose Depp are not. Gigi Hadid and Lily Collins you get to debate, and people love debating pop culture/fame. And with social media (and before that, aggressive paparazzi and increased press access w/o studio intermediation), a lot more celebrities are giving much more ill-considered interviews and dumber (/more honest) quotes in those interviews. Right-wing politicians can still have everything they say and do laundered by Fox News, and the Trump children turned into deserving scions of an important family. Lily-Rose Depp is not so lucky.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 7:51 PM on November 25, 2022 [42 favorites]
Lily-Rose Depp, who's mentioned in the article, was one interview that I snorted at at the time she gave it, because she was talking about working SO HARD and nobody appreciating her hard work because of her famous dad, which a) she gave during the Amber Heard trials/aftermath, so attention to a pretty dumb, routine interview was unfairly concentrated on it BUT ALSO gender discourse about it was 100% unavoidable and she walked right into it, and b) SHE IS 5'2" AND DOING RUNWAYS FOR CHANEL -- typical runway models have to be at least 5'10". Literally nobody but Lily-Rose Depp thinks Lily-Rose Depp would be a runway model if not for her famous name, but she's VERY OFFENDED (in PUBLIC, when she has a PR TEAM to TELL HER NOT TO SAY IT) that anybody would think being famous has anything to do with her modeling success.
It's not just about Hollywood/acting dynasties (Tippi Hedron - Melanie Griffith - Dakota Johnson; Debbie Reynolds - Carrie Fisher - Billie Lourde), but also about
Lily-Rose Depp and Brooklyn Beckham are at the extreme end of "I must be very good at what I do because I am already famous, and also I will whine about people not appreciating my genius in the press." Bryce Dallas Howard, otoh, has always been straightforward about how growing up with Ron Howard as her dad was a "best-case scenario" for a child interested in acting, and how it gave her a huge leg up. Dan Levy has also been super-clear about how being Eugene Levy's child has made his entire career possible, and how Schitt's Creek would never have happened otherwise.
So the whole "nepo baby" conversation isn't just about "actors' kids have a better chance of being actors" or about "look how entitled these people are!" but a whole complex conversation about talent, opportunity, parental connections, privilege, hard work, humility, and awareness of their luck -- as embodied by individual children of famous people, whose parents had different amounts of fame, who have different levels of talent, who suffered in various ways for their fame or their parents' fame. (Lily Collins has struggled with a serious eating disorder because of growing up in the public eye; Melanie Griffith was literally mauled by a fucking lion in service to her parents' artistic endeavors.) North West could grow up to be the best actress of her generation, but will anyone ever take any of the Kardashian children seriously at anything? They've probably been way too famous since way too young; they'll always be considered feckless Brooklyn Beckhams, even if by some miracle they aren't.
And it's also about, you have an entire PR team, your parents have an entire PR team, your studio has an entire PR team, and you're still out here, an actor who would struggle to get promoted from soap operas if they didn't have a "name," sulking about how nobody ever handed you anything when you're a Chanel brand ambassador at 5'2" or getting cast in major roles with no prior experience. There's an entire subgenre of nepo-baby actors talking about how they've always had to audition -- FOR THEIR FAMOUS PARENT'S PROJECT. Yes, Scott Eastwood, congratulations on being handed nothing because you were forced to audition for Clint's films. Mark Consuelos's son Matthew had to audition to play a younger version of his father in a flashback on Riverdale, which he was really nervous about. Candace Cameron Bure's daughter has played a relative of her mom in a bunch of Hallmark-type movies, but insists she always has to audition and it's never a sure thing -- as if Candace Cameron Bure wasn't the surest thing in a Hallmark movie for FIFTEEN YEARS and couldn't make whatever demands she wanted to.
Anyway, it's part of a larger discourse on social mobility, entitlement, inherited wealth and power, etc. -- and it's also in many ways the most visible end of that discourse, because Hollywood celebrities have always been products packaged for our consumption via the media. And while a lot of Americans have little to no opinion on the policies and effectiveness of George W. Bush, or the history of Koch industries, everybody has opinions on movies and TV shows and the actors in them. So it's a hell of a lot easier to say, "Hey, this actor isn't very good -- I think they're only in this movie because their dad directed it!" There's also a lot of discourse around sorting people into deserving and undeserving nepo babies. Zoe Kravitz, Bryce Dallas Howard, Dan Levy, Sofia Coppola are deserving; Brooklyn Beckham and Lily-Rose Depp are not. Gigi Hadid and Lily Collins you get to debate, and people love debating pop culture/fame. And with social media (and before that, aggressive paparazzi and increased press access w/o studio intermediation), a lot more celebrities are giving much more ill-considered interviews and dumber (/more honest) quotes in those interviews. Right-wing politicians can still have everything they say and do laundered by Fox News, and the Trump children turned into deserving scions of an important family. Lily-Rose Depp is not so lucky.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 7:51 PM on November 25, 2022 [42 favorites]
(And yes, you can see the clip of Melanie Griffith being literally mauled by a fucking lion in a in a movie that was actually released in theaters at the link, while her mother screams in absolute terror but tries to keep acting, and her father just keeps filming and refuses to yell cut because the footage is too good. She required fairly extensive reconstructive surgery -- 50 stitches -- has scars, and almost lost an eye.)
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 7:57 PM on November 25, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 7:57 PM on November 25, 2022 [2 favorites]
Bryce Dallas Howard, otoh, has always been straightforward about how growing up with Ron Howard as her dad was a "best-case scenario" for a child interested in acting, and how it gave her a huge leg up.
And Ron would probably say the same of his own father.
posted by The Underpants Monster at 8:03 PM on November 25, 2022 [1 favorite]
And Ron would probably say the same of his own father.
posted by The Underpants Monster at 8:03 PM on November 25, 2022 [1 favorite]
Nepotism is a good reminder that successful people don't believe in meritocracy and do as much as they can to spare their children from having to compete. At best they will do some occasional character building like making them audition, show up for a cushy office job or participate in their own rigged presidential election as Dick Cheney's assistant.
posted by anecdotal_grand_theory at 12:54 AM on November 26, 2022 [8 favorites]
posted by anecdotal_grand_theory at 12:54 AM on November 26, 2022 [8 favorites]
happyinmotion:
"No-one does it "their way". No-one comes from nothing. Anyone who says otherwise is a fool."
Mostly true, but here's an exception.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chamath_Palihapitiya
Came from a very poor, abusive family. Started an ran a billion dollar investment fund.
He says he aimed for being rich because he was so embarrassed by his family that he had no idea of trying to be middle class.
posted by Nancy Lebovitz at 3:04 AM on November 26, 2022
"No-one does it "their way". No-one comes from nothing. Anyone who says otherwise is a fool."
Mostly true, but here's an exception.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chamath_Palihapitiya
Came from a very poor, abusive family. Started an ran a billion dollar investment fund.
He says he aimed for being rich because he was so embarrassed by his family that he had no idea of trying to be middle class.
posted by Nancy Lebovitz at 3:04 AM on November 26, 2022
It is surreal to see the loud angry pushback against "nepotism is real and problematic" from this community in particular. Baffling!
The issue with nepotism is not just that it gives people opportunities, y'all. The issue is that it flatly contradicts the myth that we live in a meritocracy. All this bullshit from Johnny Depp's kid (and from comments here) that every actor who gets a gig deserved that gig the most mirrors the bullshit argument that Elon Musk is the most genius engineer to ever touch a car or a computer.
Sure, the stakes are lower when it's acting and music we're talking about. Oh wait, no it isn't—not since the economy and higher education collapsed so brutally that most of Gen Z has been forced into various "hustle culture" blood games, where "becoming an influencer" is your only way out of a lifetime of Starbucks and crippling debt. The lie fed to so many fucking kids is that being a talented performer/influencer and building an audience of your own is a viable path out of your current life. And leaving aside the obvious fact that, no, that industry simply doesn't scale, it is a serious problem that all these cultures are infested by young rich famous people who are pretending like their path through life is somehow obtainable to kids in the middle of Podunk, Nowhere—because meritocracy is a myth that fucks us all.
It's not just glitzy "nepo babies." It's Bloomberg articles about how this 25-year-old was able to save so efficiently that he just bought his first house—and the monthly budget reveals he gets a $10,000/month check from his mother. It's start-up founders talking about the importance of perseverance and hard work when their dad owns a venture capital firm. It is a massive culture-wide problem, literally the reinstatement of the aristocratic class masked by the thinnest veneer of "but we deserve it this time!" The fact that it's a charismatic and charming celebrity who you stan doesn't magically make this the one genuinely meritocratic industry in the world: it's caught up in the same ruinous forces as literally everything else.
That doesn't mean you can't like the celebs who you like. (Lily Collins is great!) But maybe let's draw the line at actively doing their dirty work for them. We don't need to insist that nepotism doesn't actually matter, or isn't a problem, when it could not be clearer that it matters a ton and is a major reason why the world is eating itself alive.
posted by Tom Hanks Cannot Be Trusted at 4:15 AM on November 26, 2022 [34 favorites]
The issue with nepotism is not just that it gives people opportunities, y'all. The issue is that it flatly contradicts the myth that we live in a meritocracy. All this bullshit from Johnny Depp's kid (and from comments here) that every actor who gets a gig deserved that gig the most mirrors the bullshit argument that Elon Musk is the most genius engineer to ever touch a car or a computer.
Sure, the stakes are lower when it's acting and music we're talking about. Oh wait, no it isn't—not since the economy and higher education collapsed so brutally that most of Gen Z has been forced into various "hustle culture" blood games, where "becoming an influencer" is your only way out of a lifetime of Starbucks and crippling debt. The lie fed to so many fucking kids is that being a talented performer/influencer and building an audience of your own is a viable path out of your current life. And leaving aside the obvious fact that, no, that industry simply doesn't scale, it is a serious problem that all these cultures are infested by young rich famous people who are pretending like their path through life is somehow obtainable to kids in the middle of Podunk, Nowhere—because meritocracy is a myth that fucks us all.
It's not just glitzy "nepo babies." It's Bloomberg articles about how this 25-year-old was able to save so efficiently that he just bought his first house—and the monthly budget reveals he gets a $10,000/month check from his mother. It's start-up founders talking about the importance of perseverance and hard work when their dad owns a venture capital firm. It is a massive culture-wide problem, literally the reinstatement of the aristocratic class masked by the thinnest veneer of "but we deserve it this time!" The fact that it's a charismatic and charming celebrity who you stan doesn't magically make this the one genuinely meritocratic industry in the world: it's caught up in the same ruinous forces as literally everything else.
That doesn't mean you can't like the celebs who you like. (Lily Collins is great!) But maybe let's draw the line at actively doing their dirty work for them. We don't need to insist that nepotism doesn't actually matter, or isn't a problem, when it could not be clearer that it matters a ton and is a major reason why the world is eating itself alive.
posted by Tom Hanks Cannot Be Trusted at 4:15 AM on November 26, 2022 [34 favorites]
I'm not sure what we're seeing in this thread is a "pushback" against nepotism, more like "nepotism is empirically bad, but the practical reality is actually more complex than this article describes."
Also I think a lot of the "pushers-back" already know that meritocracy is a myth, and think that nepotism is far from the only thing working against it.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 4:20 AM on November 26, 2022 [8 favorites]
Also I think a lot of the "pushers-back" already know that meritocracy is a myth, and think that nepotism is far from the only thing working against it.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 4:20 AM on November 26, 2022 [8 favorites]
The Flying Wallendas, nepoting since 1780.
This is a really interesting point. It's only been about a hundred years since acting and singing became "respectable" professions in the Western European bougie sphere. Before mass media brought dreams of stardom to everyone, public entertaining was socially (and often legally) considered on a level with prostitution and other petty crimes. It was assumed that women who performed were more or less just advertising for new clients, and the men were their pimps or charlatans of some other kind. The only families that actively wanted their children to go on the stage or in the ring were already there, and often put them to work in the family business before the kid could form an opinion about it.
In particular, acrobats need training from an extremely young age. Today, normal kids often do start gymnastics at that time, pre-K or so,* but before the 20th century it was Not Done that way among ordinary families. The kids were born or adopted into the life.
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* I'm not talking about sports parents here -- just little classes at the Y to do balance beams and pennydrops, the kind of thing that could lead to more but usually doesn't.
posted by Countess Elena at 6:24 AM on November 26, 2022 [3 favorites]
This is a really interesting point. It's only been about a hundred years since acting and singing became "respectable" professions in the Western European bougie sphere. Before mass media brought dreams of stardom to everyone, public entertaining was socially (and often legally) considered on a level with prostitution and other petty crimes. It was assumed that women who performed were more or less just advertising for new clients, and the men were their pimps or charlatans of some other kind. The only families that actively wanted their children to go on the stage or in the ring were already there, and often put them to work in the family business before the kid could form an opinion about it.
In particular, acrobats need training from an extremely young age. Today, normal kids often do start gymnastics at that time, pre-K or so,* but before the 20th century it was Not Done that way among ordinary families. The kids were born or adopted into the life.
----
* I'm not talking about sports parents here -- just little classes at the Y to do balance beams and pennydrops, the kind of thing that could lead to more but usually doesn't.
posted by Countess Elena at 6:24 AM on November 26, 2022 [3 favorites]
I think the three nepo babies that stick out in my mind are Max Landis, who wrote the quite terrible Bright and is also just generally a bad person, and LMFAO, which explains a lot about why the hell their mediocre music got played everywhere briefly before they just disappeared off the face of the earth.
And, like, having famous parents who do something hard does give you a leg up, because if you're a 16 year old with 12 years experience acting with professionals, you're going to be pretty good at it. I think what's useful about 'nepo baby' as a term is describing people who wildly overestimate their talent or how they're allowed to treat people, to the point where finding out they have a famous relative is an explanation.
posted by Merus at 7:01 AM on November 26, 2022 [2 favorites]
And, like, having famous parents who do something hard does give you a leg up, because if you're a 16 year old with 12 years experience acting with professionals, you're going to be pretty good at it. I think what's useful about 'nepo baby' as a term is describing people who wildly overestimate their talent or how they're allowed to treat people, to the point where finding out they have a famous relative is an explanation.
posted by Merus at 7:01 AM on November 26, 2022 [2 favorites]
The article wants a login if it reloads so here’s an archive link.
posted by ellieBOA at 7:21 AM on November 26, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by ellieBOA at 7:21 AM on November 26, 2022 [1 favorite]
I have long since lost the link but a few weeks/months ago I read an article about the actress Sydney Sweeney that talked about, among other things, how she (not a nepo baby) uses her social media vs how the nepo babies use theirs. Because Sweeney has no family money to fall back on and no family name to keep her in the public eye, she's constantly hustling on Instagram and doing advertising shoots. But the nepo kids don't have to hustle like that because they have the fallback, and their social media accordingly is less influencer-oriented and advertising-oriented.
This particularly came up around Sweeney's desire to have a child and her concern about taking time off around the birth of one, and her worry that doing so would damage her career in a way that it wouldn't for an age peer who had the family spotlight.
So sure, some of these nepo babies in entertainment are actually good at what they do (and some who do have it can't hack the business), but there are real structural advantages to being in the business and having that family background and the public family life to rely on. And that structural unfairness is part of what I think the Gen Z kids are reacting to. The advantage has always been there, but in a time frame where the SES/class differences are increasingly clear not just between the poor and the working wealthy but the working wealthy and the super-rich and connected, it's becoming more of a subject of discussion.
posted by gentlyepigrams at 7:58 AM on November 26, 2022 [2 favorites]
This particularly came up around Sweeney's desire to have a child and her concern about taking time off around the birth of one, and her worry that doing so would damage her career in a way that it wouldn't for an age peer who had the family spotlight.
So sure, some of these nepo babies in entertainment are actually good at what they do (and some who do have it can't hack the business), but there are real structural advantages to being in the business and having that family background and the public family life to rely on. And that structural unfairness is part of what I think the Gen Z kids are reacting to. The advantage has always been there, but in a time frame where the SES/class differences are increasingly clear not just between the poor and the working wealthy but the working wealthy and the super-rich and connected, it's becoming more of a subject of discussion.
posted by gentlyepigrams at 7:58 AM on November 26, 2022 [2 favorites]
I have long since lost the link but a few weeks/months ago I read an article about the actress Sydney Sweeney that talked about, among other things, how she (not a nepo baby) uses her social media vs how the nepo babies use theirs.
Are you thinking of this FPP from back in August?
posted by Dip Flash at 8:15 AM on November 26, 2022
Are you thinking of this FPP from back in August?
posted by Dip Flash at 8:15 AM on November 26, 2022
I certainly believe nepotism is real; I just think it’s one of many, many factors that work against our culture being a meritocracy, and not the most important one. Privilege is not a synonym for nepotism. Access to opportunities denied to other people happens in far more ways than just “hey I’m famous, hire my kid.”
For example: I went to college because everyone in my family went to college and it was expected that I would go. But I went to a state school that no one in my family had ever gone to. It wasn’t nepotism that got me to college, it was the privilege of being raised in a family that expected I would go to college. That’s not meritocracy; it’s also not nepotism.
posted by showbiz_liz at 8:16 AM on November 26, 2022 [3 favorites]
For example: I went to college because everyone in my family went to college and it was expected that I would go. But I went to a state school that no one in my family had ever gone to. It wasn’t nepotism that got me to college, it was the privilege of being raised in a family that expected I would go to college. That’s not meritocracy; it’s also not nepotism.
posted by showbiz_liz at 8:16 AM on November 26, 2022 [3 favorites]
Are you thinking of this FPP from back in August?
Yes, it was the Defector piece. I didn't come back to the site until after that but I'm not surprised that it was a FPP here. Thanks for the link!
posted by gentlyepigrams at 8:25 AM on November 26, 2022
Yes, it was the Defector piece. I didn't come back to the site until after that but I'm not surprised that it was a FPP here. Thanks for the link!
posted by gentlyepigrams at 8:25 AM on November 26, 2022
"No-one does it "their way". No-one comes from nothing. Anyone who says otherwise is a fool."
Mostly true, but here's an exception.
There are no exceptions, just varying degrees of difficulty.
And in that particular case the kid's parents arranged from him to migrate from Sri Lanka to Canada. That's not a trivial advantage to give someone.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 10:58 AM on November 26, 2022 [2 favorites]
Mostly true, but here's an exception.
There are no exceptions, just varying degrees of difficulty.
And in that particular case the kid's parents arranged from him to migrate from Sri Lanka to Canada. That's not a trivial advantage to give someone.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 10:58 AM on November 26, 2022 [2 favorites]
Then there is religio-political nepotism, ala Sarah Huckabee Sanders, Governor. I am no apologist for nepotism, insiderism, family businesses who employ low wage workers who will never move into management. I was told upon commenting about Utah's unique, several brands of nepotism, that if I didn't like it, I could leave. I did, and moved to where another flavor of nepots live, the generations of oil monied who write the entire script.
We are social beings and some of us can't get away from our families of origin, fast enough; and some forge dynasties. You would think that with a lot of money in play, it would be easier, more compelling to stay, I doubt that is so if it is a bad fit. Faking a career in acting would be impossible for a native introvert. The lack of privacy, lack of security, and the security aspects for the families of the famous are costly, many things make me think that decision is in the blood, or is a last resort when faced with working with people out of the industry, who are good/bad, fascinated with you, because of who your parents are. It is not going to go away just because you don't take up your famous parent's profession.
posted by Oyéah at 9:53 PM on November 26, 2022
We are social beings and some of us can't get away from our families of origin, fast enough; and some forge dynasties. You would think that with a lot of money in play, it would be easier, more compelling to stay, I doubt that is so if it is a bad fit. Faking a career in acting would be impossible for a native introvert. The lack of privacy, lack of security, and the security aspects for the families of the famous are costly, many things make me think that decision is in the blood, or is a last resort when faced with working with people out of the industry, who are good/bad, fascinated with you, because of who your parents are. It is not going to go away just because you don't take up your famous parent's profession.
posted by Oyéah at 9:53 PM on November 26, 2022
I mean, even legacy admissions to university are a form of nepotism.
posted by The Underpants Monster at 10:12 PM on November 26, 2022 [5 favorites]
posted by The Underpants Monster at 10:12 PM on November 26, 2022 [5 favorites]
ctrl + F "abrams"
JJ Abrams' father was a major TV producer for years who opened a lot of doors. After years of writing the first half of several script outlines and getting rewarded for not bothering to finish anything coherently, Abrams took control of star wars and made it all about how the only person important enough to effect the plot is the direct blood descendant of the emperor. The old movies at least had random guys with no notable parents like Han Solo and Obi Wan making decisions and taking useful actions.
People talk about star wars as the most important story for literal generations of children, and nepotism in the media has made the core of the franchise nothing but propaganda for nepotism in politics.
posted by fomhar at 8:20 AM on November 27, 2022 [9 favorites]
JJ Abrams' father was a major TV producer for years who opened a lot of doors. After years of writing the first half of several script outlines and getting rewarded for not bothering to finish anything coherently, Abrams took control of star wars and made it all about how the only person important enough to effect the plot is the direct blood descendant of the emperor. The old movies at least had random guys with no notable parents like Han Solo and Obi Wan making decisions and taking useful actions.
People talk about star wars as the most important story for literal generations of children, and nepotism in the media has made the core of the franchise nothing but propaganda for nepotism in politics.
posted by fomhar at 8:20 AM on November 27, 2022 [9 favorites]
→
But then, I've never MetaFilter I didn't like
posted by scruss at 5:32 PM on November 27, 2022 [7 favorites]
Jessamyn comes from a long line of Filters
But then, I've never MetaFilter I didn't like
posted by scruss at 5:32 PM on November 27, 2022 [7 favorites]
After years of writing the first half of several script outlines and getting rewarded for not bothering to finish anything coherently, Abrams took control of star wars and made it all about how the only person important enough to effect the plot is the direct blood descendant of the emperor.
This got me curious, and I went looking to see what else ol' JJ has on the boiler: while he's still producing, it really looks like his inability to wrap up Star Wars, which caused Lucasfilm to spend hundreds of millions of dollars trying to resurrect the franchise, finally put paid to his writing and directing.
That said, he does have one notable talent: he's really good at casting. Not all of his casts go on to become mega-stars, but he's reliably able to put heavy roles on the shoulders of actors who can carry them.
posted by Merus at 8:06 PM on November 27, 2022
This got me curious, and I went looking to see what else ol' JJ has on the boiler: while he's still producing, it really looks like his inability to wrap up Star Wars, which caused Lucasfilm to spend hundreds of millions of dollars trying to resurrect the franchise, finally put paid to his writing and directing.
That said, he does have one notable talent: he's really good at casting. Not all of his casts go on to become mega-stars, but he's reliably able to put heavy roles on the shoulders of actors who can carry them.
posted by Merus at 8:06 PM on November 27, 2022
The "nepotism" might have gotten them in the door but those that really made it in the industry (whichever industry you're talking about) are the ones who really DID do the work and developed themselves and their craft.
Well, yeah, but that's why it's particularly irritating in professions where there are many more people who want to enter than spots.
Maybe, to some small extent, in the creative arts. But in finance? Politics? Big Business? Ivy League Universities? Naw, it's pretty much who you know that gets you in and keeps you there.
Neither in finance nor "big business" is that true unless you're not just connected but actually have substantial capital of your own. In which case you're an owner who does some management which isn't really nepotism in the same way since you're not a real employee. (obviously inheriting capital is the biggest "nepotism" of all but I don't think that's how people usually use the word).
It will get you in the door but you don't just magically keep getting promoted if you're not good at it.
Let's take the particular example of investment banking, a sub-world of finance. In any given graduate intake year, there are between 20x to 30x people who have the drive, math skills (which are basic by the standard of math but not universal among American college graduates), writing and presentation skills (ditto) to be good at the thankless but well-paid job of being a junior investment banker.
In fact, if more people *wanted* to do the job and thought they genuinely had a chance to get it, that 20x to 30x would be way higher.
It is 100% the case that, essentially to make it easier for themselves, recruiters just go to a few target universities. Why not? They can get the people they need times 5x anyway and then whittle them down with some interview rounds. It is also the case, that having CV screened out anyone with a low GPA (almost nobody at elite institutions has a low GPA by design anyway), the interviewers (themselves more senior bankers) know for sure that the interview process is kind of low stakes for them - anyone who has made it to this point has cleared a moderate bar and will do an acceptable quality of work. If they don't, well it's two years and then up, out, or sideways so who cares?
posted by atrazine at 4:14 AM on November 28, 2022
Well, yeah, but that's why it's particularly irritating in professions where there are many more people who want to enter than spots.
Maybe, to some small extent, in the creative arts. But in finance? Politics? Big Business? Ivy League Universities? Naw, it's pretty much who you know that gets you in and keeps you there.
Neither in finance nor "big business" is that true unless you're not just connected but actually have substantial capital of your own. In which case you're an owner who does some management which isn't really nepotism in the same way since you're not a real employee. (obviously inheriting capital is the biggest "nepotism" of all but I don't think that's how people usually use the word).
It will get you in the door but you don't just magically keep getting promoted if you're not good at it.
Let's take the particular example of investment banking, a sub-world of finance. In any given graduate intake year, there are between 20x to 30x people who have the drive, math skills (which are basic by the standard of math but not universal among American college graduates), writing and presentation skills (ditto) to be good at the thankless but well-paid job of being a junior investment banker.
In fact, if more people *wanted* to do the job and thought they genuinely had a chance to get it, that 20x to 30x would be way higher.
It is 100% the case that, essentially to make it easier for themselves, recruiters just go to a few target universities. Why not? They can get the people they need times 5x anyway and then whittle them down with some interview rounds. It is also the case, that having CV screened out anyone with a low GPA (almost nobody at elite institutions has a low GPA by design anyway), the interviewers (themselves more senior bankers) know for sure that the interview process is kind of low stakes for them - anyone who has made it to this point has cleared a moderate bar and will do an acceptable quality of work. If they don't, well it's two years and then up, out, or sideways so who cares?
posted by atrazine at 4:14 AM on November 28, 2022
Abrams took control of star wars and made it all about how the only person important enough to effect the plot is the direct blood descendant of the emperor. The old movies at least had random guys with no notable parents like Han Solo and Obi Wan making decisions and taking useful actions.
Good God that movie was terrible. At the time, I got mad at the couple in front of me who couldn't stay off their phones, but looking back? They were right.
posted by EatTheWeek at 8:51 AM on November 28, 2022 [1 favorite]
Good God that movie was terrible. At the time, I got mad at the couple in front of me who couldn't stay off their phones, but looking back? They were right.
posted by EatTheWeek at 8:51 AM on November 28, 2022 [1 favorite]
Abrams took control of star wars and made it all about how the only person important enough to effect the plot is the direct blood descendant of the emperor.
Come on. The original hero was the son of the main villain! I mean, all Abrams did was recycle yet another plot point from the main 3 movies.
I went to college because everyone in my family went to college and it was expected that I would go.
Like 65% of people in the US go to college. I'm not sure using privilege to describe the basic concept of 'going to college' is quite right. Maybe 'college graduate' is worthy - that's only 35%.
posted by The_Vegetables at 10:16 AM on November 28, 2022
Come on. The original hero was the son of the main villain! I mean, all Abrams did was recycle yet another plot point from the main 3 movies.
I went to college because everyone in my family went to college and it was expected that I would go.
Like 65% of people in the US go to college. I'm not sure using privilege to describe the basic concept of 'going to college' is quite right. Maybe 'college graduate' is worthy - that's only 35%.
posted by The_Vegetables at 10:16 AM on November 28, 2022
That's a pretty shocking difference between the two, The_Vegetables. 35% is bachelor's or above, if you include associate's degrees it's 45%. Still shocking to me that there's 20% of the population with some college who didn't get any degree out of it, mostly because in the American system you have no easy way of getting career or skills recognition for non-degree tertiary education i.e. someone with one year of Associate's degree classes is a college-drop-out not someone with a distinct credential that is recognised.
posted by atrazine at 11:10 AM on November 28, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by atrazine at 11:10 AM on November 28, 2022 [1 favorite]
he does have one notable talent: he's really good at casting.
Or, he hires good casting directors.
In which case you're an owner who does some management which isn't really nepotism in the same way since you're not a real employee. (obviously inheriting capital is the biggest "nepotism" of all but I don't think that's how people usually use the word).
Huh? Not sure what hairs you're trying to split here...
Because Sweeney has no family money to fall back on and no family name to keep her in the public eye, she's constantly hustling on Instagram and doing advertising shoots. But the nepo kids don't have to hustle like that because they have the fallback, and their social media accordingly is less influencer-oriented and advertising-oriented.
On a somewhat related note, I've been paying more attention to the use of celebrities in commercials, which seems (subjectively speaking) to be growing. Yes, there have always been celebrity endorsements and things like that -- especially from pro athletes -- but I remember a time when Hollywood stars would only do advertisements in foreign markets like Japan -- both because of the huge $ and the perceived embarrassment from an American audience for doing a commercial for a car company or whatever.
That attitude obviously started changing a while ago, because now celebs do all sorts of commercials, and it makes me wonder about 1) why are so many big names doing commercial work? and 2) how does that affect the non-celeb working actors who are trying to get work?
Natalie Portman is in a perfume commercial (Dior?) that has been air constantly. Why? I mean, I know why Dior would want her, but why would she take that job? She's got Star Wars money and Marvel movies money, so one would assume she doesn't need the extra cash. Larry David has Seinfeld & Curb Your Enthusiasm money, and he's shilling for cryptocurrency. Matthew McConaughey does ads for whiskey, luxury cars and SUVs, etc. You can't tell me that guy doesn't have bank, based on all the big projects he's had.
Now, someone like Charlie Day doing commercials for Mountain Dew or Craig Robinson doing commercials for Pizza Hut I get more -- those guys have some fame, probably some good money, but neither of them are in the elite, I would imagine. Still, though, is keeping up with the Joneses that hard in Hollywood?
Anyway, the point I'm so poorly trying to articulate here is that I can't help but think that more movie & tv stars working commercials means fewer jobs for the no-names who are trying to get into the industry, and its just another example of how the bar to entry keeps getting raised.
posted by Saxon Kane at 11:27 AM on November 28, 2022 [1 favorite]
Or, he hires good casting directors.
In which case you're an owner who does some management which isn't really nepotism in the same way since you're not a real employee. (obviously inheriting capital is the biggest "nepotism" of all but I don't think that's how people usually use the word).
Huh? Not sure what hairs you're trying to split here...
Because Sweeney has no family money to fall back on and no family name to keep her in the public eye, she's constantly hustling on Instagram and doing advertising shoots. But the nepo kids don't have to hustle like that because they have the fallback, and their social media accordingly is less influencer-oriented and advertising-oriented.
On a somewhat related note, I've been paying more attention to the use of celebrities in commercials, which seems (subjectively speaking) to be growing. Yes, there have always been celebrity endorsements and things like that -- especially from pro athletes -- but I remember a time when Hollywood stars would only do advertisements in foreign markets like Japan -- both because of the huge $ and the perceived embarrassment from an American audience for doing a commercial for a car company or whatever.
That attitude obviously started changing a while ago, because now celebs do all sorts of commercials, and it makes me wonder about 1) why are so many big names doing commercial work? and 2) how does that affect the non-celeb working actors who are trying to get work?
Natalie Portman is in a perfume commercial (Dior?) that has been air constantly. Why? I mean, I know why Dior would want her, but why would she take that job? She's got Star Wars money and Marvel movies money, so one would assume she doesn't need the extra cash. Larry David has Seinfeld & Curb Your Enthusiasm money, and he's shilling for cryptocurrency. Matthew McConaughey does ads for whiskey, luxury cars and SUVs, etc. You can't tell me that guy doesn't have bank, based on all the big projects he's had.
Now, someone like Charlie Day doing commercials for Mountain Dew or Craig Robinson doing commercials for Pizza Hut I get more -- those guys have some fame, probably some good money, but neither of them are in the elite, I would imagine. Still, though, is keeping up with the Joneses that hard in Hollywood?
Anyway, the point I'm so poorly trying to articulate here is that I can't help but think that more movie & tv stars working commercials means fewer jobs for the no-names who are trying to get into the industry, and its just another example of how the bar to entry keeps getting raised.
posted by Saxon Kane at 11:27 AM on November 28, 2022 [1 favorite]
why are so many big names doing commercial work? and 2) how does that affect the non-celeb working actors who are trying to get work?
Big names have always done commercials - and I assume it's because they like acting. It's actually pretty fun (comparatively speaking as far as acting jobs go) to do short-commitment advertising work. Also being in the public eye increases your Q-Score 'movie value' thing. Win-win.
posted by The_Vegetables at 12:19 PM on November 28, 2022
Big names have always done commercials - and I assume it's because they like acting. It's actually pretty fun (comparatively speaking as far as acting jobs go) to do short-commitment advertising work. Also being in the public eye increases your Q-Score 'movie value' thing. Win-win.
posted by The_Vegetables at 12:19 PM on November 28, 2022
mostly because in the American system you have no easy way of getting career or skills recognition for non-degree tertiary education i.e. someone with one year of Associate's degree classes is a college-drop-out not someone with a distinct credential that is recognised.
The US does have trade schools (and things like medical assistant/ vet tech/secretarial) schools but they aren't the preferred career path because the US is so dramatically income-oriented, and the income for a college grad vs a trade school grad is almost 2X, so everbody who thinks they can rolls the dice. And US colleges are generally still in the liberal arts model and set up to reward persistence, so 1st & 2nd year courses generally aren't worth much in terms of educational attainment for any specific job.
posted by The_Vegetables at 12:25 PM on November 28, 2022
The US does have trade schools (and things like medical assistant/ vet tech/secretarial) schools but they aren't the preferred career path because the US is so dramatically income-oriented, and the income for a college grad vs a trade school grad is almost 2X, so everbody who thinks they can rolls the dice. And US colleges are generally still in the liberal arts model and set up to reward persistence, so 1st & 2nd year courses generally aren't worth much in terms of educational attainment for any specific job.
posted by The_Vegetables at 12:25 PM on November 28, 2022
"Natalie Portman is in a perfume commercial (Dior?) that has been air constantly"
She's a brand ambassador for Dior. Typically that means that Dior will dress her for most large events, free of charge, and that she appears in advertising for Dior as well as wearing their clothes nearly-exclusively on red carpets. Some stars who are brand ambassadors do social media advertising for the brand, others may appear in print ads, others may walk the runway in shows. Typically, it is fashion brands who buy the tables at the Met Gala, and invite their brand ambassadors who are movie stars to attend. (That's how AOC attended; the fashion designer who made her dress invited her as her guest, she did not pay.)
It's pretty prestigious to be a brand ambassador for one of the traditional Parisian fashion houses; most A-list female stars are an ambassador somewhere. Natalie Portman is making bank from Dior -- she's not making commercial money, she's making brand ambassador money, and does a commercial as a part of that. And Dior gets good value for their money by having Natalie Portman appear in their clothes.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 12:40 PM on November 28, 2022 [4 favorites]
She's a brand ambassador for Dior. Typically that means that Dior will dress her for most large events, free of charge, and that she appears in advertising for Dior as well as wearing their clothes nearly-exclusively on red carpets. Some stars who are brand ambassadors do social media advertising for the brand, others may appear in print ads, others may walk the runway in shows. Typically, it is fashion brands who buy the tables at the Met Gala, and invite their brand ambassadors who are movie stars to attend. (That's how AOC attended; the fashion designer who made her dress invited her as her guest, she did not pay.)
It's pretty prestigious to be a brand ambassador for one of the traditional Parisian fashion houses; most A-list female stars are an ambassador somewhere. Natalie Portman is making bank from Dior -- she's not making commercial money, she's making brand ambassador money, and does a commercial as a part of that. And Dior gets good value for their money by having Natalie Portman appear in their clothes.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 12:40 PM on November 28, 2022 [4 favorites]
most crucially, how clueless/entitled they are about their family connections in interviews intended for public consumption.
This is it for me. Of course people will help their children, and people with relatives in the industry will always have a leg up. What really matters to me is whether they acknowledge that privilege. People like Depp and Lily Collins and Maude Apatow have gotten in hot water recently because of their whole "I still work hard!" thing, which seeks to downplay the extent to which having famous parents have helped get them where they are.
It would be completely different for someone to say they work hard but also acknowledge how lucky they are to have been given a leg up. Self-awareness goes a long way.
And it's not even about famous people getting jobs for their kids. Just having resources is a huge help. I was a struggling performer in NYC for years, and one of the few guys I knew who became successful did so because his parents were financially able to pay his rent and major expenses so he didn't have to have a day job, but could just hone his craft and go to auditions. That makes a huge difference.
So I don't think the nepotism discussion should be about whether nepotism is good or bad, but whether the individual beneficiaries of nepotism are honest about the different elements that have gone into their success.
posted by Ben Trismegistus at 1:16 PM on November 28, 2022 [3 favorites]
This is it for me. Of course people will help their children, and people with relatives in the industry will always have a leg up. What really matters to me is whether they acknowledge that privilege. People like Depp and Lily Collins and Maude Apatow have gotten in hot water recently because of their whole "I still work hard!" thing, which seeks to downplay the extent to which having famous parents have helped get them where they are.
It would be completely different for someone to say they work hard but also acknowledge how lucky they are to have been given a leg up. Self-awareness goes a long way.
And it's not even about famous people getting jobs for their kids. Just having resources is a huge help. I was a struggling performer in NYC for years, and one of the few guys I knew who became successful did so because his parents were financially able to pay his rent and major expenses so he didn't have to have a day job, but could just hone his craft and go to auditions. That makes a huge difference.
So I don't think the nepotism discussion should be about whether nepotism is good or bad, but whether the individual beneficiaries of nepotism are honest about the different elements that have gone into their success.
posted by Ben Trismegistus at 1:16 PM on November 28, 2022 [3 favorites]
Big names have always done commercials
Right, which I said, but there was a time when it wasn't as common as it is now (or at least, that's my perception), and there definitely was a time when there was a perception that movie stars were above such "petty" work.
She's a brand ambassador for Dior.
Ah, that explains a lot. Free nice clothes, food, invites to fancy events -- I can see why that'd be appealing.
posted by Saxon Kane at 1:17 PM on November 28, 2022
Right, which I said, but there was a time when it wasn't as common as it is now (or at least, that's my perception), and there definitely was a time when there was a perception that movie stars were above such "petty" work.
She's a brand ambassador for Dior.
Ah, that explains a lot. Free nice clothes, food, invites to fancy events -- I can see why that'd be appealing.
posted by Saxon Kane at 1:17 PM on November 28, 2022
It is 100% the case that, essentially to make it easier for themselves, recruiters just go to a few target universities. Why not?
Doing recruiting the same ol' easy nepotistic legacy way is how you get systemically racist outcomes.
posted by emeiji at 3:35 PM on November 28, 2022 [1 favorite]
Doing recruiting the same ol' easy nepotistic legacy way is how you get systemically racist outcomes.
posted by emeiji at 3:35 PM on November 28, 2022 [1 favorite]
The article doesn't really get into it, but as Eyebrows McGee notes, the reason this article is being written is that Gen Z is just finding out about nepotism and it's rocking their world.
Gen X was told they could be anything they wanted to be. Millenials were told to live their passion. Gen Z has been given a hefty dose of both of those sentiments along with the idea that you can live your dreams by getting famous on social media, and they have hundreds, if not thousands, of examples of that in their face every single day.
When they find out that Maude Apatow from Euphoria is the daughter of some old movie producer, they go into a tailspin as more and more of their favs are revealed as "nepobabies". There are endless tiktoks about these revelations.
In acting there are usually dozens of potential actors to play any given role. Insiders succeed because it's often safer to trust a name, even one that hasn't proven much, AND you can curry favor with someone important.
All show business is going to be somewhat incestuous and based on personal relationships-- it's one of the hardest major industries to quantify success in many facets of the business. This leads to relationship building being so important in whether you succeed or fail, and why just getting a shot at all is the biggest leg up possible. Only in the rarest of situations (Godfather III) is nepotism blamed for artistic or commercial failure.
I'm less interested in the kids of famous actors succeeding, than in the kids of billionaires, high ranking military officers, etc. These people generally obscure their backgrounds, and their relatives are just powerful, not famous, but their success is also partially a product of having the right family background.
posted by chaz at 5:30 PM on November 28, 2022 [7 favorites]
Gen X was told they could be anything they wanted to be. Millenials were told to live their passion. Gen Z has been given a hefty dose of both of those sentiments along with the idea that you can live your dreams by getting famous on social media, and they have hundreds, if not thousands, of examples of that in their face every single day.
When they find out that Maude Apatow from Euphoria is the daughter of some old movie producer, they go into a tailspin as more and more of their favs are revealed as "nepobabies". There are endless tiktoks about these revelations.
In acting there are usually dozens of potential actors to play any given role. Insiders succeed because it's often safer to trust a name, even one that hasn't proven much, AND you can curry favor with someone important.
All show business is going to be somewhat incestuous and based on personal relationships-- it's one of the hardest major industries to quantify success in many facets of the business. This leads to relationship building being so important in whether you succeed or fail, and why just getting a shot at all is the biggest leg up possible. Only in the rarest of situations (Godfather III) is nepotism blamed for artistic or commercial failure.
I'm less interested in the kids of famous actors succeeding, than in the kids of billionaires, high ranking military officers, etc. These people generally obscure their backgrounds, and their relatives are just powerful, not famous, but their success is also partially a product of having the right family background.
posted by chaz at 5:30 PM on November 28, 2022 [7 favorites]
Just as journalism has become a hobby for connected rich kids, so too has writing for television — which might explain the hilariously unrealistic depictions of working-class life on popular shows. People who have never paid their own bills come up with the quaintest scenarios for how that might actually work.
“OK, this character has to rent her own apartment. What kind of job would she need to afford 2,000 square feet on the Upper West Side?”
“Hm. Part-time waitress at a coffeehouse? That seems like something a prole could do…”
“Brilliant!”
This is the kind of quality representation we get when the creative class only admits people from moneyed families.
posted by armeowda at 6:13 AM on November 29, 2022 [5 favorites]
“OK, this character has to rent her own apartment. What kind of job would she need to afford 2,000 square feet on the Upper West Side?”
“Hm. Part-time waitress at a coffeehouse? That seems like something a prole could do…”
“Brilliant!”
This is the kind of quality representation we get when the creative class only admits people from moneyed families.
posted by armeowda at 6:13 AM on November 29, 2022 [5 favorites]
high ranking military officers, etc. These people generally obscure their backgrounds, and their relatives are just powerful, not famous, but their success is also partially a product of having the right family background.
Yes, to even attend a military academy, you have to have a recommendation from a member of Congress. It's much easier to get that when you have regular access to them.
posted by The_Vegetables at 8:29 AM on November 29, 2022
Yes, to even attend a military academy, you have to have a recommendation from a member of Congress. It's much easier to get that when you have regular access to them.
posted by The_Vegetables at 8:29 AM on November 29, 2022
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The thing is that I don't doubt that successful later-generation actors, etc. did work for it. Zoe Kravitz is good; so is Maya Hawke, and so are others who hide their identity. It's just that they were able to avoid or recover from fuckups in a way that life doesn't provide for others. (Plus, for the ladies and very young men, they probably were able to avoid a whole lot of sexual harassment and consequent career damage due to their identities.)
I read either an article or a tweet thread pinning the dominance of nepo babies (talented or otherwise) in the entertainment industry directly to the lack of economic mobility in the past few decades. It's much harder now to fuck around and scrape by in your teens and twenties trying to get a career off the ground, and that's the age at which stars become stars, at least in acting and music.
posted by Countess Elena at 9:44 AM on November 25, 2022 [28 favorites]