Significant protests at Foxconn iPhone factory in Zhengzhou
November 25, 2022 5:25 PM Subscribe
"It's not hyperbolic to say that this is the most significant worker revolt we've seen in China for many years" says Chris Cash, Director of the China Research Group in a four minute interview with Times Radio that includes graphic footage from an unverified video.
Reuters says "The rare scenes of open dissent in China mark an escalation of unrest at the massive factory in Zhengzhou city that has come to symbolise a dangerous build-up in frustration with the country's ultra-severe COVID rules as well as inept handling of the situation by the world's largest contract manufacturer."
Radio Free Asia, in one of the more extensive media reports, quotes a company source: ""The incident has a big impact on our public image but little on our (current) capacity. Our current capacity is not affected," ... adding that labor issues have nonetheless meant the plant has lost around 30 percent of its former capacity in recent months."
Marketwatch notes : "Shares of Apple fell 2.2% on Friday as the worst performer among the 30 stocks in the Dow Jones Industrial Average DJIA, +0.45%, which rose about -0.5%."
Reuters says "The rare scenes of open dissent in China mark an escalation of unrest at the massive factory in Zhengzhou city that has come to symbolise a dangerous build-up in frustration with the country's ultra-severe COVID rules as well as inept handling of the situation by the world's largest contract manufacturer."
Radio Free Asia, in one of the more extensive media reports, quotes a company source: ""The incident has a big impact on our public image but little on our (current) capacity. Our current capacity is not affected," ... adding that labor issues have nonetheless meant the plant has lost around 30 percent of its former capacity in recent months."
Marketwatch notes : "Shares of Apple fell 2.2% on Friday as the worst performer among the 30 stocks in the Dow Jones Industrial Average DJIA, +0.45%, which rose about -0.5%."
Very interesting post, thank you. I'm put off by the Reuters mention of growing frustration with zero COVID. As the rest of the article notes, these workers appear to be concerned with not enough pay and too much COVID in their workplace, the same issues identified by The South China Morning Post . They're not mentioning zero COVID.
This BBC article does draw a pretty strong correlation between new zero COVID measures and separate China protests. However they suggest the root cause is something like worker frustration at not being paid or not getting food as the animating force, rather than a growing frustration with the policy itself (like our American COVID protesters).
Of course its difficult to say what Foxconn workers want because they're not allowed an independent voice. But that's why its especially important to go with the direct evidence we have rather than introducing other, indirectly related issues. I'd also like to note that the frustration with overly severe COVID measures is being directly expressed by French capital owners through their mouthpiece the French embassy.
posted by Hume at 6:28 PM on November 25, 2022 [29 favorites]
This BBC article does draw a pretty strong correlation between new zero COVID measures and separate China protests. However they suggest the root cause is something like worker frustration at not being paid or not getting food as the animating force, rather than a growing frustration with the policy itself (like our American COVID protesters).
Of course its difficult to say what Foxconn workers want because they're not allowed an independent voice. But that's why its especially important to go with the direct evidence we have rather than introducing other, indirectly related issues. I'd also like to note that the frustration with overly severe COVID measures is being directly expressed by French capital owners through their mouthpiece the French embassy.
posted by Hume at 6:28 PM on November 25, 2022 [29 favorites]
I've no clue how Foxconn workers feel about covid policies, but their regular grievances feel well established, so hopefully covid concerns contribute to their movement, without distracting too much.
posted by jeffburdges at 6:44 PM on November 25, 2022 [5 favorites]
posted by jeffburdges at 6:44 PM on November 25, 2022 [5 favorites]
The situation reminds me of one of the reasons the hacky argument that sweatshops are good, actually, is so awful. Their reasoning is, more or less, that since sweatshop workers are making a somewhat voluntary choice its wrong to interfere with or coerce that choice through boycotts or regulation. The problem is the target of boycotts is the actual decision-makers in the situation -- the capitalists who own the shops -- and the motivation is to end the coercion of the workers. The sweatshops need the coercion (especially the prevention of unionization) to keep functioning as intended (this riot being one of many examples). When there's less coercion, the workers just leave and go back to farming. Imagine that.
posted by Hume at 6:45 PM on November 25, 2022 [7 favorites]
posted by Hume at 6:45 PM on November 25, 2022 [7 favorites]
It's becoming increasingly clear that Xi has cemented his unrivaled leadership and all level of government rapidly became, relative to before, hidebound and myopic.
A temporarily open-handed and magnanimous approach to Hong Kong could possibly have lured Taiwan into a "one country three systems" promise before they put the screws to democratic movements.
COVID's rapid spread in the first place was in no small part due to an allergy to bad news up and down the reporting chain, and now when there are far, far superior vaccines on the market compared to the Sinopharm vaccine, the spineless functionaries in Beijing remain committed to lockdowns without compensation and even without delivering basic necessities to those locked down rather than to frankly get over themselves and import more effective vaccines -- even if that violates their Not Invented Here policy.
This is how every authoritarian structure (governmental and corporate) fails to deliver even its one potentially realistic promise of stability.
posted by tclark at 6:55 PM on November 25, 2022 [20 favorites]
A temporarily open-handed and magnanimous approach to Hong Kong could possibly have lured Taiwan into a "one country three systems" promise before they put the screws to democratic movements.
COVID's rapid spread in the first place was in no small part due to an allergy to bad news up and down the reporting chain, and now when there are far, far superior vaccines on the market compared to the Sinopharm vaccine, the spineless functionaries in Beijing remain committed to lockdowns without compensation and even without delivering basic necessities to those locked down rather than to frankly get over themselves and import more effective vaccines -- even if that violates their Not Invented Here policy.
This is how every authoritarian structure (governmental and corporate) fails to deliver even its one potentially realistic promise of stability.
posted by tclark at 6:55 PM on November 25, 2022 [20 favorites]
Naomi Wu had some comments on the situation on twitter today:
one
two
She's a great resource for China matters, in general.
posted by vibratory manner of working at 7:15 PM on November 25, 2022 [9 favorites]
one
two
She's a great resource for China matters, in general.
posted by vibratory manner of working at 7:15 PM on November 25, 2022 [9 favorites]
I've no clue how Foxconn workers feel about covid policies, but their regular grievances feel well established, so hopefully covid concerns contribute to their movement, without distracting too much.
That article is about the Foxconn suicide stories that got attention several years back. As bad as suicide is, the article also notes the context of the suicide rate, which tempers the association with Foxconn in particular.
It's difficult to gauge on the ground feeling of actual people in China. Independently verifiable news is hard to come by. The language barrier alone is a big stumbling block. Much of what gets reported outside meager western news outlets is pretty axe grindy (such as Falun Gong funded outlets). There do seem to have been some protests that have been related to Covid policies, which in some places seem to have been rather draconian and surprisingly arbitrary. I've been trying to find insight about the Foxconn wage protests, and I can't tell how much Covid policy is a driving issue, though it almost certainly at least a continuing aggravating factor on everyone having to deal with it. And of course, the government that is hell bent on sweeping everything under the rug and controlling narratives at all costs.
South China Morning Post usually seems to have reasonably good English reporting. The ADVChina guys, together and individually, seem to have interesting angles on stuff going on in China via several youtube channels.
posted by 2N2222 at 7:45 PM on November 25, 2022 [5 favorites]
That article is about the Foxconn suicide stories that got attention several years back. As bad as suicide is, the article also notes the context of the suicide rate, which tempers the association with Foxconn in particular.
It's difficult to gauge on the ground feeling of actual people in China. Independently verifiable news is hard to come by. The language barrier alone is a big stumbling block. Much of what gets reported outside meager western news outlets is pretty axe grindy (such as Falun Gong funded outlets). There do seem to have been some protests that have been related to Covid policies, which in some places seem to have been rather draconian and surprisingly arbitrary. I've been trying to find insight about the Foxconn wage protests, and I can't tell how much Covid policy is a driving issue, though it almost certainly at least a continuing aggravating factor on everyone having to deal with it. And of course, the government that is hell bent on sweeping everything under the rug and controlling narratives at all costs.
South China Morning Post usually seems to have reasonably good English reporting. The ADVChina guys, together and individually, seem to have interesting angles on stuff going on in China via several youtube channels.
posted by 2N2222 at 7:45 PM on November 25, 2022 [5 favorites]
Seconding vibratory's recommendation of Naomi Wu's twitter, and breaking out the source thread from one of her posts:
https://nitter.net/zhao_dashuai/status/1595738235053166593
A different but plausible explanation of what's going on from someone marked as "China state-affiliated media" so take that as you will (personally when it comes to China I don't trust either the China or the USA state-affiliated media). The main point is that it's not specifically about China's covid policy, it's about workers' pay.
I think it's a stretch to interpret this as a proto-uprising against the Chinese state, when it's protests against a Taiwanese company, under contract to Western companies, using Chinese labor. In my opinion the whole thing reflects very badly on Apple.
posted by riddley at 8:28 PM on November 25, 2022 [3 favorites]
https://nitter.net/zhao_dashuai/status/1595738235053166593
A different but plausible explanation of what's going on from someone marked as "China state-affiliated media" so take that as you will (personally when it comes to China I don't trust either the China or the USA state-affiliated media). The main point is that it's not specifically about China's covid policy, it's about workers' pay.
I think it's a stretch to interpret this as a proto-uprising against the Chinese state, when it's protests against a Taiwanese company, under contract to Western companies, using Chinese labor. In my opinion the whole thing reflects very badly on Apple.
posted by riddley at 8:28 PM on November 25, 2022 [3 favorites]
It's difficult to gauge on the ground feeling of actual people in China. Independently verifiable news is hard to come by. The language barrier alone is a big stumbling block.
Gentle reminder that there are MeFi posters who speak Chinese, have families/friends in China, or even live there now.
I can compile another list of godawful Zero Covid incidents in China (previously), but I honestly do not have the emotional energy now, with Taiwan in the middle of Yet Another Ultra-Important Election.
Search "Urumqi fire" on any platform of your choice. Similar incidents (similar in root cause) have blown up on Chinese social media a few times every week, ever since the Shanghai ordeal earlier this year. If anyone simply cannot believe (the Chinese implementation of) Zero Covid could be this bad, I may try to muster the energy to post links to:
* Video/photo evidence of government workers going into people's houses to disinfect (read: ruin with spray) everything and kill their pets. One security-cam footage of them beating a puppy to death in its owner's apartment will live in my head rent free, until the end of CCP or the world. Side-note: that might be the first time I'd ever seen thousands of Chinese citizens (mostly young women, the demo most emotionally attached to their pets) wishing literal death to government workers publicly on Weibo.
* A father had to threaten government workers with a weapon to let him buy milk powder for his starving baby. Similar incidents are common.
* A woman jumped from the building she lived in. Her daughter rushed downstairs but was forbidden to attend to her. The woman died. Similar incidents are common.
* A school janitor jumped to her death in the university she worked in, leaving her most valuable possessions on the roof (like shoes). Many janitors like her have been locked into the schools along with the students, but there are no dorms for them. They have to sleep in empty classrooms, scurrying away when student come, and leave their belongings in bathroom closets.
... plus dozens more types of incidents. So many ways to fuck up Zero Covid.
posted by fatehunter at 8:38 PM on November 25, 2022 [54 favorites]
Gentle reminder that there are MeFi posters who speak Chinese, have families/friends in China, or even live there now.
I can compile another list of godawful Zero Covid incidents in China (previously), but I honestly do not have the emotional energy now, with Taiwan in the middle of Yet Another Ultra-Important Election.
Search "Urumqi fire" on any platform of your choice. Similar incidents (similar in root cause) have blown up on Chinese social media a few times every week, ever since the Shanghai ordeal earlier this year. If anyone simply cannot believe (the Chinese implementation of) Zero Covid could be this bad, I may try to muster the energy to post links to:
* Video/photo evidence of government workers going into people's houses to disinfect (read: ruin with spray) everything and kill their pets. One security-cam footage of them beating a puppy to death in its owner's apartment will live in my head rent free, until the end of CCP or the world. Side-note: that might be the first time I'd ever seen thousands of Chinese citizens (mostly young women, the demo most emotionally attached to their pets) wishing literal death to government workers publicly on Weibo.
* A father had to threaten government workers with a weapon to let him buy milk powder for his starving baby. Similar incidents are common.
* A woman jumped from the building she lived in. Her daughter rushed downstairs but was forbidden to attend to her. The woman died. Similar incidents are common.
* A school janitor jumped to her death in the university she worked in, leaving her most valuable possessions on the roof (like shoes). Many janitors like her have been locked into the schools along with the students, but there are no dorms for them. They have to sleep in empty classrooms, scurrying away when student come, and leave their belongings in bathroom closets.
... plus dozens more types of incidents. So many ways to fuck up Zero Covid.
posted by fatehunter at 8:38 PM on November 25, 2022 [54 favorites]
The Japanese news source NHK is saying that the Zero COVID policy is the problem. China has inferior vaccines. Chinese people are as a result still having bad outbreaks, having to mask and having lock-downs with no access to food, medicine, medical attention… and having people come in and kill their pets and ruin their belongings.
I live in an area of the US where there are many anti - vax anti - mask people. We still have the case loads down enough that I don’t feel the need to wear a mask unless I’m around people who are immunocompromised, looking at a hospital stay, or I know they aren’t vaccinated or I’m sick.
I doubt it’s going to get real bad here anytime soon.
These working people in China are having a terrible time. I’d riot too. They are being oppressed.
posted by Katjusa Roquette at 10:00 PM on November 25, 2022 [4 favorites]
I live in an area of the US where there are many anti - vax anti - mask people. We still have the case loads down enough that I don’t feel the need to wear a mask unless I’m around people who are immunocompromised, looking at a hospital stay, or I know they aren’t vaccinated or I’m sick.
I doubt it’s going to get real bad here anytime soon.
These working people in China are having a terrible time. I’d riot too. They are being oppressed.
posted by Katjusa Roquette at 10:00 PM on November 25, 2022 [4 favorites]
Angry protests erupt at Foxconn factory in China amid COVID curbs | DW Business
I watched this news report on DW. After 50 seconds of images off police brutality, the host says 'now let's turn to our financial correspondent in New York. How badly will this affect Apple's bottom line?'
The very first question! How badly will the money get hurt?
Anyhow, thanks to COVID, 200,000 people (that's a lot) at this factory are only allowed to travel between where they sleep and where they work. And now their pay is late.
Given that vaccines have allowed the rest of the world to return to relative normality, I'm beginning to wonder if these COVID restrictions are about public health. Because it really looks like they've found cover to imprison their workers.
posted by adept256 at 10:07 PM on November 25, 2022 [4 favorites]
I watched this news report on DW. After 50 seconds of images off police brutality, the host says 'now let's turn to our financial correspondent in New York. How badly will this affect Apple's bottom line?'
The very first question! How badly will the money get hurt?
Anyhow, thanks to COVID, 200,000 people (that's a lot) at this factory are only allowed to travel between where they sleep and where they work. And now their pay is late.
Given that vaccines have allowed the rest of the world to return to relative normality, I'm beginning to wonder if these COVID restrictions are about public health. Because it really looks like they've found cover to imprison their workers.
posted by adept256 at 10:07 PM on November 25, 2022 [4 favorites]
The ADVChina guys, together and individually, seem to have interesting angles on stuff going on in China via several youtube channels.
Just be aware that "it is a labour dispute" is the line that CCP shills are heavily spinning. For me the source already speaks strongly to the likely veracity.
The important aspect of the COVID lockdown thing is all about phonecodes. The government has now, in multiple instances, used the red lockdown button for reasons unrelated to COVID for attemped social control. The foxcon thing started as labour but the catalyst that got them battling in the streets was when the goivernment RED coded the whole factory to try to prevent protests. Similar to what they did a month back with protests against the regional bank that stole everyone's money.
CCP has shown it's hand, the COVID phone health-thing is just a convenient tool of fine-grained social control. Just imagine the gov't being able to flick a switch and wherever you are right now, that becomes your prison for an indefinite time. The dystopia is here.
posted by Meatbomb at 10:14 PM on November 25, 2022 [25 favorites]
Just be aware that "it is a labour dispute" is the line that CCP shills are heavily spinning. For me the source already speaks strongly to the likely veracity.
The important aspect of the COVID lockdown thing is all about phonecodes. The government has now, in multiple instances, used the red lockdown button for reasons unrelated to COVID for attemped social control. The foxcon thing started as labour but the catalyst that got them battling in the streets was when the goivernment RED coded the whole factory to try to prevent protests. Similar to what they did a month back with protests against the regional bank that stole everyone's money.
CCP has shown it's hand, the COVID phone health-thing is just a convenient tool of fine-grained social control. Just imagine the gov't being able to flick a switch and wherever you are right now, that becomes your prison for an indefinite time. The dystopia is here.
posted by Meatbomb at 10:14 PM on November 25, 2022 [25 favorites]
The Chinese vaccines are not very good. They will continue to have outbreaks.
posted by Katjusa Roquette at 10:27 PM on November 25, 2022
posted by Katjusa Roquette at 10:27 PM on November 25, 2022
If anybody was curious about context re: labor issues in China, I posted a question in Ask earlier last week looking for related resources and got some really great responses.
Some articles from some of the recommended sources:
Foreigner works at an IT company in China for several years to learn about labor conditions and reports back:
Everywhere, she says, the bosses were anxious for the employees to distrust each other. As soon as she became friends with an office colleague and was able to work well together, the bosses became suspicious and set her as far apart as possible. “Just like school!” For the boss, control is more important than productivity. Because if he loses control, his authority suffers; low employee productivity, on the other hand, leads to overtime and low wages for them, not for the boss.
Some context on labor conditions and strikes over the past ~10 years in China:
It is confounding that the same problems have continued for years, despite high-level policies and regulations that, on paper, offer promising solutions. The problem lies not only with mechanisms to enforce labour rights and protections, but also with a system that ignores workers’ voices.
Also, an aside regarding word choice:
People, even really submissive, brainwashed people do reach a breaking point.
I’m sure you already know this, and I understand what you mean, but I’d like to gently remind us all in terms of word choice that the issue is at a structural level rather than an individual level: workers are oppressed because the government/workplace is oppressive, not because they as individuals are “submissive, brainwashed.” We're all just trying to live our lives, and not being oppressed is a luxury many people don't have. There's a large Western warmongering propaganda machine aiming to frame issues culturally as, e.g., American people vs Chinese people, serving to dehumanize Chinese citizens as mindless drones in comparison to free-thinking Americans. Any glance at WeChat gossip groupchats would shatter this misconception in an instant. The real issue at hand has always been structural: the oppressed vs the oppressors, regardless of country.
posted by bongerino at 12:16 AM on November 26, 2022 [50 favorites]
Some articles from some of the recommended sources:
Foreigner works at an IT company in China for several years to learn about labor conditions and reports back:
Everywhere, she says, the bosses were anxious for the employees to distrust each other. As soon as she became friends with an office colleague and was able to work well together, the bosses became suspicious and set her as far apart as possible. “Just like school!” For the boss, control is more important than productivity. Because if he loses control, his authority suffers; low employee productivity, on the other hand, leads to overtime and low wages for them, not for the boss.
Some context on labor conditions and strikes over the past ~10 years in China:
It is confounding that the same problems have continued for years, despite high-level policies and regulations that, on paper, offer promising solutions. The problem lies not only with mechanisms to enforce labour rights and protections, but also with a system that ignores workers’ voices.
Also, an aside regarding word choice:
People, even really submissive, brainwashed people do reach a breaking point.
I’m sure you already know this, and I understand what you mean, but I’d like to gently remind us all in terms of word choice that the issue is at a structural level rather than an individual level: workers are oppressed because the government/workplace is oppressive, not because they as individuals are “submissive, brainwashed.” We're all just trying to live our lives, and not being oppressed is a luxury many people don't have. There's a large Western warmongering propaganda machine aiming to frame issues culturally as, e.g., American people vs Chinese people, serving to dehumanize Chinese citizens as mindless drones in comparison to free-thinking Americans. Any glance at WeChat gossip groupchats would shatter this misconception in an instant. The real issue at hand has always been structural: the oppressed vs the oppressors, regardless of country.
posted by bongerino at 12:16 AM on November 26, 2022 [50 favorites]
Timeline of events
Oct 13 -Covid cases rise, Foxconn forces workers to stay onsite, either working or in their dorm room, including for meals in a ‘closed loop’.
Oct 24-27 - Covid cases increase. Insufficient isolation mixes positive and negative. Factory runs short of supplies. Workers sound alarm online, Foxconn denies any problems.
Oct 28 -31 -Workers want to leave. Lack transport. Thousands flee on foot. Outlying areas provide aide.
Nov 1 - Foxconn orders workers to resume and offers bonuses.
Nov 7 - Apple announce delays in shipping iPhone 14.
Nov 17 - Provincial govt. recruits workers on Foxconn’s behalf. - workers protest pay and conditions. Covid rife in closed loop. Bonuses not delivered.
Nov 23 - Protests begin. Police in PPE use tear gas and water cannon. Injuries and arrests.
Nov 24 - Foxconn trying to defuse and massage.
posted by Thella at 12:32 AM on November 26, 2022 [14 favorites]
Oct 13 -Covid cases rise, Foxconn forces workers to stay onsite, either working or in their dorm room, including for meals in a ‘closed loop’.
Oct 24-27 - Covid cases increase. Insufficient isolation mixes positive and negative. Factory runs short of supplies. Workers sound alarm online, Foxconn denies any problems.
Oct 28 -31 -Workers want to leave. Lack transport. Thousands flee on foot. Outlying areas provide aide.
Nov 1 - Foxconn orders workers to resume and offers bonuses.
Nov 7 - Apple announce delays in shipping iPhone 14.
Nov 17 - Provincial govt. recruits workers on Foxconn’s behalf. - workers protest pay and conditions. Covid rife in closed loop. Bonuses not delivered.
Nov 23 - Protests begin. Police in PPE use tear gas and water cannon. Injuries and arrests.
Nov 24 - Foxconn trying to defuse and massage.
posted by Thella at 12:32 AM on November 26, 2022 [14 favorites]
Naomi Wu has had some pretty awful takes on other issues. She's on the right side of this one, but you don't have to look far for some pretty terrible opinions.
I’m sure you already know this, and I understand what you mean, but I’d like to gently remind us all in terms of word choice that the issue is at a structural level rather than an individual level: workers are oppressed because the government/workplace is oppressive, not because they as individuals are “submissive, brainwashed.” We're all just trying to live our lives, and not being oppressed is a luxury many people don't have. There's a large Western warmongering propaganda machine aiming to frame issues culturally as, e.g., American people vs Chinese people, serving to dehumanize Chinese citizens as mindless drones in comparison to free-thinking Americans. Any glance at WeChat gossip groupchats would shatter this misconception in an instant. The real issue at hand has always been structural: the oppressed vs the oppressors, regardless of country.
This is so good.
I do think that there is something that taints a lot of analysis of China issues, and is visible here...people see the "fall of the CCP" as inevitable. So everything is seen in that light...ah, a real estate issue...is this it? is this what brings down the CCP? ah, unrest over zero covid...is this it, is this the thing? In my experience living in China that simply does not exist here. I'm sure there are hardline anti-CCP types who feel that sense of "inevitability," but in my experience, people's views are much more nuanced, as you might expect when they are dealing with all of these things day to day, instead of just as part of a sort of "China grand narrative." Most people I know who are critical of aspects of the government would pretty much never leap to "and that is why the CCP must fall." And replace it with what? There is a lot of low grade frustration, especially when lockdowns get more serious, but even that rarely gets larger. And when it does get larger, the government is very very good at preventing the information from spreading, or controlling narratives where possible. It's a really tricky media environment! Heh, today actually I had my first instance of wechat blocking a sensitive video. My wife saw a picture that showed just how much some people dislike zero covid, it was someone doing a very low scale protest (holding up a sign). She asked me, "oh did you see that photo I sent?" I didn't, because wechat didn't let it send. We tried with some other people we know, same thing. Other photos went through, the sensitive one didn't.
My small city in China just got put under full lockdown (well, heh, technically not "full lockdown," they just locked down all the streets and neighborhoods, "but you can still go out! it's not a full lock down!"). People are frustrated with how it was communicated, people are scared about constant lying about "there will be no lockdown!" until there was a lockdown...people are scared about whether or not they'll be able to get resources. But it's a gigantic leap, an absolutely gigantic leap to go from that to "and we are going to riot." The commenter about was absolutely right about Foxconn: they weren't protesting "zero covid," they were protesting abusive working conditions, poor pay, etc etc. I will also say that before this there has actually been a pretty long tradition of chinese workers fucking shit up at factories when management pulls bullshit (which is often), it's just that it is rarely reported on. I personally know of multiple unreported protests...just you know, local things that sort of blow up, people protest at whatever scale makes sense for the conflict, and then it is resolved somehow...in some cases, one of the parties fold. In some others, the state brought down a bunch of police violence. But if I weren't very closely linked to such situations, I'd never known.
The people I know who hate zero covid the most are the people in the biggest cities, which makes sense, as they've generally been affected by it the most. In my experience, people in smaller towns haven't been affected by it as much, and they're afraid of the disease, they are afraid of what they've seen happening in the US and elsewhere. Now that there are even more lockdowns all across the country, that may change. I have no idea. It will be interesting to see over the next few weeks while my city is locked down how people's attitudes towards this shift.
I dunno, this is just a little bit of anecdotal, personal conflict from someone on the ground. I think if I can impart any takeaway is that I think it's incredibly mistaken to look at anything through a sense of inevitability. I mean, I personally am super frustrated by the lack of availability of better vaccines in China...and as the person who ends up fielding a lot of political and international relations type questions among the people I know here, they are also frustrated, and don't understand. "Why does the whole world have better vaccines than us?" This is of course among a minority of people in my experience, a lot of people here aren't really thinking much about vaccines, foreign vaccines, better vaccines, etc...honestly the vaccine rollout here has been a gigantic and frustrating self-own, it's very frustrating...but I think the dangerous thing is to then say "and that is why the CCP will fall!" I can guarantee you nobody is going to go rioting over the lack of availability over the Pfizer vaccine.
But we will see. If covid goes endemic, a lot of people are going to die. When covid hit hong kong's elderly population, who were poorly vaccinated, a lot of people died. Endemic covid here right now would be very bad*. That would likely create a lot of unrest, but again, to link that directly to "and this is where the CCP overplayed it's hand!" I think is vastly overstating the case.
* in fact, all through the pandemic, people both in and outside of china have asked me: how do we know covid isn't already endemic? my answer has always been that it's entirely likely/possible that case counts were higher than reported, but if it was really endemic, the deaths among the elderly would be impossible to hide.
posted by wooh at 3:49 AM on November 26, 2022 [43 favorites]
I’m sure you already know this, and I understand what you mean, but I’d like to gently remind us all in terms of word choice that the issue is at a structural level rather than an individual level: workers are oppressed because the government/workplace is oppressive, not because they as individuals are “submissive, brainwashed.” We're all just trying to live our lives, and not being oppressed is a luxury many people don't have. There's a large Western warmongering propaganda machine aiming to frame issues culturally as, e.g., American people vs Chinese people, serving to dehumanize Chinese citizens as mindless drones in comparison to free-thinking Americans. Any glance at WeChat gossip groupchats would shatter this misconception in an instant. The real issue at hand has always been structural: the oppressed vs the oppressors, regardless of country.
This is so good.
I do think that there is something that taints a lot of analysis of China issues, and is visible here...people see the "fall of the CCP" as inevitable. So everything is seen in that light...ah, a real estate issue...is this it? is this what brings down the CCP? ah, unrest over zero covid...is this it, is this the thing? In my experience living in China that simply does not exist here. I'm sure there are hardline anti-CCP types who feel that sense of "inevitability," but in my experience, people's views are much more nuanced, as you might expect when they are dealing with all of these things day to day, instead of just as part of a sort of "China grand narrative." Most people I know who are critical of aspects of the government would pretty much never leap to "and that is why the CCP must fall." And replace it with what? There is a lot of low grade frustration, especially when lockdowns get more serious, but even that rarely gets larger. And when it does get larger, the government is very very good at preventing the information from spreading, or controlling narratives where possible. It's a really tricky media environment! Heh, today actually I had my first instance of wechat blocking a sensitive video. My wife saw a picture that showed just how much some people dislike zero covid, it was someone doing a very low scale protest (holding up a sign). She asked me, "oh did you see that photo I sent?" I didn't, because wechat didn't let it send. We tried with some other people we know, same thing. Other photos went through, the sensitive one didn't.
My small city in China just got put under full lockdown (well, heh, technically not "full lockdown," they just locked down all the streets and neighborhoods, "but you can still go out! it's not a full lock down!"). People are frustrated with how it was communicated, people are scared about constant lying about "there will be no lockdown!" until there was a lockdown...people are scared about whether or not they'll be able to get resources. But it's a gigantic leap, an absolutely gigantic leap to go from that to "and we are going to riot." The commenter about was absolutely right about Foxconn: they weren't protesting "zero covid," they were protesting abusive working conditions, poor pay, etc etc. I will also say that before this there has actually been a pretty long tradition of chinese workers fucking shit up at factories when management pulls bullshit (which is often), it's just that it is rarely reported on. I personally know of multiple unreported protests...just you know, local things that sort of blow up, people protest at whatever scale makes sense for the conflict, and then it is resolved somehow...in some cases, one of the parties fold. In some others, the state brought down a bunch of police violence. But if I weren't very closely linked to such situations, I'd never known.
The people I know who hate zero covid the most are the people in the biggest cities, which makes sense, as they've generally been affected by it the most. In my experience, people in smaller towns haven't been affected by it as much, and they're afraid of the disease, they are afraid of what they've seen happening in the US and elsewhere. Now that there are even more lockdowns all across the country, that may change. I have no idea. It will be interesting to see over the next few weeks while my city is locked down how people's attitudes towards this shift.
I dunno, this is just a little bit of anecdotal, personal conflict from someone on the ground. I think if I can impart any takeaway is that I think it's incredibly mistaken to look at anything through a sense of inevitability. I mean, I personally am super frustrated by the lack of availability of better vaccines in China...and as the person who ends up fielding a lot of political and international relations type questions among the people I know here, they are also frustrated, and don't understand. "Why does the whole world have better vaccines than us?" This is of course among a minority of people in my experience, a lot of people here aren't really thinking much about vaccines, foreign vaccines, better vaccines, etc...honestly the vaccine rollout here has been a gigantic and frustrating self-own, it's very frustrating...but I think the dangerous thing is to then say "and that is why the CCP will fall!" I can guarantee you nobody is going to go rioting over the lack of availability over the Pfizer vaccine.
But we will see. If covid goes endemic, a lot of people are going to die. When covid hit hong kong's elderly population, who were poorly vaccinated, a lot of people died. Endemic covid here right now would be very bad*. That would likely create a lot of unrest, but again, to link that directly to "and this is where the CCP overplayed it's hand!" I think is vastly overstating the case.
* in fact, all through the pandemic, people both in and outside of china have asked me: how do we know covid isn't already endemic? my answer has always been that it's entirely likely/possible that case counts were higher than reported, but if it was really endemic, the deaths among the elderly would be impossible to hide.
posted by wooh at 3:49 AM on November 26, 2022 [43 favorites]
It's weird to me how this is being reported/spun.
There were also massive labor protests all over the United States this week with several Amazon distribution centers and Walmarts having walkouts. There has been American labor unrest for more than two years now. Also there is a massive, and probably coordinated, wave of layoffs in the tech industry. Nobody seriously speculates that there will be a revolution in the United States because of it. It's almost as if it is easier to talk about over there versus right here for most media outlets.
There is also a persistent steady attack on China's covid-19 response by Western media as if the West are somehow experts in managing covid-19 when we are in fact experts in having rampant covid-19. This has only increased since the US abandoned all pro-active control measures. For example here is nice little table of data from LA of non-residential lab confirmed outbreaks. You can make the case that China is over-reacting to covid-19 but there is also a pretty strong case that the U.S. is drastically under-reacting, particularly with 1 million+ confirmed covid-19 dead and continued alarming excess mortality.
I do think some Chinese people are very concerned about their growing case numbers because just yesterday I had a facebook friend from China ask about paxlovid (which I am taking my last dose of this morning - having been riding out my own first covid-19 infection). It's interesting to me because for the last three years I have been following his posts of the incredible number of times he has been tested, his work as travelling engineer/sales and a couple of covid apartment complex lock-ins and such and this is the first time in almost 3 years he actually seemed a bit anxious.
posted by srboisvert at 4:26 AM on November 26, 2022 [13 favorites]
There were also massive labor protests all over the United States this week with several Amazon distribution centers and Walmarts having walkouts. There has been American labor unrest for more than two years now. Also there is a massive, and probably coordinated, wave of layoffs in the tech industry. Nobody seriously speculates that there will be a revolution in the United States because of it. It's almost as if it is easier to talk about over there versus right here for most media outlets.
There is also a persistent steady attack on China's covid-19 response by Western media as if the West are somehow experts in managing covid-19 when we are in fact experts in having rampant covid-19. This has only increased since the US abandoned all pro-active control measures. For example here is nice little table of data from LA of non-residential lab confirmed outbreaks. You can make the case that China is over-reacting to covid-19 but there is also a pretty strong case that the U.S. is drastically under-reacting, particularly with 1 million+ confirmed covid-19 dead and continued alarming excess mortality.
I do think some Chinese people are very concerned about their growing case numbers because just yesterday I had a facebook friend from China ask about paxlovid (which I am taking my last dose of this morning - having been riding out my own first covid-19 infection). It's interesting to me because for the last three years I have been following his posts of the incredible number of times he has been tested, his work as travelling engineer/sales and a couple of covid apartment complex lock-ins and such and this is the first time in almost 3 years he actually seemed a bit anxious.
posted by srboisvert at 4:26 AM on November 26, 2022 [13 favorites]
Nobody seriously speculates that there will be a revolution in the United States because of it. It's almost as if it is easier to talk about over there versus right here for most media outlets.
Were workers in the U.S. locked into their workplaces? Stopped from using their phones, etc?
Can we stay focused on the topic of the thread and not relate everything back to the U.S.? This shit is serious and terrifying.
posted by tiny frying pan at 5:05 AM on November 26, 2022 [7 favorites]
Were workers in the U.S. locked into their workplaces? Stopped from using their phones, etc?
Can we stay focused on the topic of the thread and not relate everything back to the U.S.? This shit is serious and terrifying.
posted by tiny frying pan at 5:05 AM on November 26, 2022 [7 favorites]
I find the narrative about the "end of the CCP" unconvincing -- I could imagine this leading to the end of Xi's regime, if people get upset enough that legitimacy is lost, but at least as seen from here there don't seem to be any signs of the kinds of protest or dissatisfaction that could lead to an actual regime change away from the one-party control.
But, as people have pointed out very well already, information is so controlled and limited, and stories that make it here are so openly spun for political reasons, that living here it is hard to get a solid sense of how things are going in China.
posted by Dip Flash at 6:27 AM on November 26, 2022 [1 favorite]
But, as people have pointed out very well already, information is so controlled and limited, and stories that make it here are so openly spun for political reasons, that living here it is hard to get a solid sense of how things are going in China.
posted by Dip Flash at 6:27 AM on November 26, 2022 [1 favorite]
information is so controlled and limited, and stories that make it here are so openly spun for political reasons, that living here it is hard to get a solid sense of how things are going in China.
Where is “here”?
Your “here” may not be “here” for some of us.
posted by aielen at 11:19 AM on November 26, 2022 [5 favorites]
Where is “here”?
Your “here” may not be “here” for some of us.
posted by aielen at 11:19 AM on November 26, 2022 [5 favorites]
Apparently crowds have gathered on Urumqi Road in Shanghai, shouting "Down with the Communist Party" and "Down with Xi Jinping."
Link to a tweet with video.
posted by wuwei at 12:01 PM on November 26, 2022 [3 favorites]
Link to a tweet with video.
posted by wuwei at 12:01 PM on November 26, 2022 [3 favorites]
I was in the fortunate position to visit China around 15 years ago, and travel to some very remote areas in rural China.
There were such extremes in wealth throughout the places we visited, and my own many privileges were highlighted to me with such stark contrasts to my surroundings.
What struck me hard was driving out of Hong Kong on the main highway north, with seemingly nothing but factories and run down apartment blocks lining the road for first few hours of solid driving over what must have been hundreds of kilometres.
The rural village we visited and spent some time with, one family had an 'extreme debt' they knew they wouldn't be able to pay off in their lifetime. This was equivalent to about $300 USD.
Further, because of the local poverty, people from that village talked dreamily of aspirations to get one of the lowest paid jobs in a factory. 'If they were lucky enough to get a job', even with the minimal earnings they could support their whole family back home.
posted by many-things at 7:56 PM on November 26, 2022 [1 favorite]
There were such extremes in wealth throughout the places we visited, and my own many privileges were highlighted to me with such stark contrasts to my surroundings.
What struck me hard was driving out of Hong Kong on the main highway north, with seemingly nothing but factories and run down apartment blocks lining the road for first few hours of solid driving over what must have been hundreds of kilometres.
The rural village we visited and spent some time with, one family had an 'extreme debt' they knew they wouldn't be able to pay off in their lifetime. This was equivalent to about $300 USD.
Further, because of the local poverty, people from that village talked dreamily of aspirations to get one of the lowest paid jobs in a factory. 'If they were lucky enough to get a job', even with the minimal earnings they could support their whole family back home.
posted by many-things at 7:56 PM on November 26, 2022 [1 favorite]
CNN: Protests erupt across China in unprecedented challenge to Xi Jinping's zero-Covid policy[1,2]
BBC: Covid protests widen in China after Urumqi fire
BBC: Covid protests widen in China after Urumqi fire
- @ianbremmer: "chinese citizens in shanghai shouting for freedom. first time xi's ever encountering anything like this... crowds calling for removal of xi jinping—an extraordinary act risking years in prison for all of them."
- @ianbremmer: "beijingers tearing down quarantine wall, they've had enough of xi's zero covid. biggest threat of his rule to date."
- @ianbremmer: "'you know what i want to say'- man with sign, shanghai mall"
- @Byron_Wan: "You won't believe this: the people on Urumqi Middle Road in Shanghai are yelling '共产党、下台! 共产党、下台!' (Communist Party, step down! Communist Party, step down!)
- @vivianwubeijing: "At this movement in the chilly winter night, Shanghai people are chanting on the downtown street 'we don't want dictatorship, we want democracy'. Extraordinary courage and solidarity showed. After 3 years of suffering from lockdown & control of society, people are raged."
- @vivianwubeijing: "In Chinese there is a phrase 星星之火 可以燎原 which means A single spark can start a prairie fire. This is what we saw during the day in China. Students from Nanjing Broadcasting College 南京广播学院 first started a mounting gathering for Xinjiang fire victims. So sparks spread..."
- @FrankaLu: "Cao Guozheng, the President of Communication University of China, Nanjing, threatened the protesting students: 'One day you will all pay a price for what you are doing!' Students shouted back: 'One day this country will pay a price (for what is has done to the people)!'"
- @jinpeili: "Scenes from Hotan in Xinjiang where citizens waving red flag break through police barrier manned by white suits. Similar street battles reported in Tianjin, Guangdong, Chongqing and elsewhere."
- @LiYuan6: "Widespread protests against the zero Covid policy on university campuses and city streets across China. People gathered to mourn the victims who died in a horrifying fire tragedy Thursday and protest the inhuman policy. Don't think I've seen anything like this since 1989."
- @WANGJINGYU2001: "不自由，毋宁死。向上海勇士致敬！"
- @itrulyknownchi1: "Give me liberty, or give me death!" at the Central Academy of Drama in Beijing."
- @itrulyknownchi1: "'Deep condolences to the perished compatriots in Nov. 24 fire (in Urumqi, Xinjiang). Do not be numb. Do not be silent. Do not ignore. Do not forget.' Qingdao Film Academy, coastal city of Qingdao, eastern Shandong Province."
- @itrulyknownchi1: "Firecrackers are seen in Aqsu, Xinjiang, celebrating the lifting of the lockdown after a day's protest."
- @itrulyknownchi1: "Students at Sichuan Foreign Studies University in Chongqing, southwestern China, singing L'Internatle in protest."
- @eefjerammeloo: "Never seen anything like this. Well, except in #HongKong."
- @eefjerammeloo: "'Down with the party! Down with Xi Jinping!’ Free Xinjiang!'"
- @LetaHong: "Just extraordinary scenes in Shanghai: 'CCP step down, Xi Jinping step down.'"
It would just be a tiny forgotten footnote in the bigger picture of course, but how bizarre it would be for the CCP to be overthrown right after a bunch of people said it was not about that and it would never happen. Of course that won't happen, but could see Xi deciding to rething the COVID deal. At this point he seems too well entrenched to be easily removed from within.
posted by Meatbomb at 11:50 PM on November 26, 2022
posted by Meatbomb at 11:50 PM on November 26, 2022
EMERGENCY - China Has Erupted - REVOLUTION!!! (Yes, I know, overblown... from serpentza and Laowhy86, lots of good footage from within China and good translating / explaining.
posted by Meatbomb at 12:48 AM on November 27, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by Meatbomb at 12:48 AM on November 27, 2022 [2 favorites]
that video was insufferable
"they're happening everywhere!" everywhere eh? *looks out window at city of 5 million people, including multiple universities* ok
what is happening is very important. it is new. it is different. they are brave. and while not everyone knows, news is getting out...the government is doing its best to stop that, but people still find a way to know at least that something is happening
that said...I mean look, I do not love the chinese government. but there are countries with governments with fewer resources, less legitimacy, and much larger protests who have maintained their grip on power. maybe these protests will spread! I hope so. I mainly hope the brave protesters are not brutally murdered. I hope that they can result in some material benefits for their people. I do think the cost of a tiananmen style crackdown would be very high and the government knows that. but for this sort of thing it's extremely difficult to understand how the chinese government makes decisions...their calculus is simply too opaque. some people think the tanks will roll. some people think that the government will make some minor concessions. some think they'll just try and keep a lid on it until it fizzles out naturally. we shall see...
posted by wooh at 1:14 AM on November 27, 2022 [7 favorites]
"they're happening everywhere!" everywhere eh? *looks out window at city of 5 million people, including multiple universities* ok
what is happening is very important. it is new. it is different. they are brave. and while not everyone knows, news is getting out...the government is doing its best to stop that, but people still find a way to know at least that something is happening
that said...I mean look, I do not love the chinese government. but there are countries with governments with fewer resources, less legitimacy, and much larger protests who have maintained their grip on power. maybe these protests will spread! I hope so. I mainly hope the brave protesters are not brutally murdered. I hope that they can result in some material benefits for their people. I do think the cost of a tiananmen style crackdown would be very high and the government knows that. but for this sort of thing it's extremely difficult to understand how the chinese government makes decisions...their calculus is simply too opaque. some people think the tanks will roll. some people think that the government will make some minor concessions. some think they'll just try and keep a lid on it until it fizzles out naturally. we shall see...
posted by wooh at 1:14 AM on November 27, 2022 [7 favorites]
I'm hearing that there are protests with a blank piece of paper as a symbol, which is diabolical - the police going around arresting everyone with blank paper will do the work of the protesters for them.
I assume that the Chinese government will make minor concessions - abandoning the COVID lockdowns and maybe doing a deal for Western vaccines will probably encourage most people to go home. I think, like someone upthread said, there isn't really an alternative movement that's been built.
However, we really cannot imagine in what way a government might be blindsided, and have their legitimacy crumble overnight. To use a recent example, nothing seemed enough to bring down Boris Johnson's government, and what did ended up being not particularly novel compared to the obscenities that had already happened. Everything consequential in politics is unique.
posted by Merus at 4:25 AM on November 27, 2022 [1 favorite]
I assume that the Chinese government will make minor concessions - abandoning the COVID lockdowns and maybe doing a deal for Western vaccines will probably encourage most people to go home. I think, like someone upthread said, there isn't really an alternative movement that's been built.
However, we really cannot imagine in what way a government might be blindsided, and have their legitimacy crumble overnight. To use a recent example, nothing seemed enough to bring down Boris Johnson's government, and what did ended up being not particularly novel compared to the obscenities that had already happened. Everything consequential in politics is unique.
posted by Merus at 4:25 AM on November 27, 2022 [1 favorite]
I've honestly no idea who'll last longer, the CCP running China, or the Democrat-Republican collaboration running the US, as both appear quite flexible. At an extreme, even Xi can be replaced, like presidents, etc.
Julian Assange was maybe overly optimistic when he claimed that in China "there is pervasive censorship, because speech still has power and power is scared of it."
I too think minor concessions likely suffice here, especially assuming correctness of everyone blaming shitty covid vaccines.
posted by jeffburdges at 4:47 AM on November 27, 2022
Julian Assange was maybe overly optimistic when he claimed that in China "there is pervasive censorship, because speech still has power and power is scared of it."
I too think minor concessions likely suffice here, especially assuming correctness of everyone blaming shitty covid vaccines.
posted by jeffburdges at 4:47 AM on November 27, 2022
A couple of weeks ago around midnight, while watching a Labour Relations Board hearing, I got a brief lesson in the history of striking. It did not make me into any kind of expert, but what I picked up from it was that the first period of industrialization usually involves strikes being illegal. Governments crack down hard on any sign of unrest, while wildcat strikes pop up unpredictably. The government plays whack-a-mole, never knowing if they'll be able to snuff all the fires and prevent a general conflagration.
In North America, the solution that was adopted was to make strikes legal after a collective agreement had expired and a new one was being negotiated, but illegal while a collective agreement was in place. This "controlled burn" approach recognized the inevitability of labour unrest but kept it contained.
They didn't go into the western European solution, though I'm sure there are interesting things to learn from it, too, about how to contain labour unrest when zero-tolerance policies break down.
China has a unique history of labour unrest. I don't know of any other country where the government promoted widespread unrest the way that Mao did during the Cultural Revolution. It's a cliché to say that the Cultural Revolution shaped the post-Mao leadership's attitude toward unrest, but:
It's not surprising that it's a slow process, though. For most industrializing countries it has taken anywhere from decades to over a century to go from zero tolerance to containment.
posted by clawsoon at 5:22 AM on November 27, 2022 [6 favorites]
In North America, the solution that was adopted was to make strikes legal after a collective agreement had expired and a new one was being negotiated, but illegal while a collective agreement was in place. This "controlled burn" approach recognized the inevitability of labour unrest but kept it contained.
They didn't go into the western European solution, though I'm sure there are interesting things to learn from it, too, about how to contain labour unrest when zero-tolerance policies break down.
China has a unique history of labour unrest. I don't know of any other country where the government promoted widespread unrest the way that Mao did during the Cultural Revolution. It's a cliché to say that the Cultural Revolution shaped the post-Mao leadership's attitude toward unrest, but:
Deng Xiaoping: During the Cultural Revolution, he and his family were targeted by Red Guards, who imprisoned Deng's eldest son, Deng Pufang. Deng Pufang was tortured and jumped out, or was thrown out, of the window of a four-story building in 1968, becoming a paraplegic.If that's your experience of unrest, I'm guessing it's difficult to think flexibly about a containment approach. The risk of conflagration will always be at the back of your mind. Perhaps it will take a post-Cultural Revolution leadership generation to find a working compromise.
Hu Jintao: Two years into the Cultural Revolution, in 1968, Hu Jintao's father was arrested for "capitalist transgressions." He was publicly tortured in a "struggle session" and endured such harsh treatment in prison that he never recovered.
Xi Jinping: Student militants ransacked the Xi family home and one of Xi's sisters, Xi Heping, committed suicide from the pressure. Later, his mother was forced to publicly denounce his father, as he was paraded before a crowd as an enemy of the revolution.
It's not surprising that it's a slow process, though. For most industrializing countries it has taken anywhere from decades to over a century to go from zero tolerance to containment.
posted by clawsoon at 5:22 AM on November 27, 2022 [6 favorites]
One of the things I've found interesting and disheartening is how many western "Covid hawks" really want to align sympathetically with zero covid policy. Or at least the idea of zero covid policy. And subsequently play down how much China's implementation of zero covid has been a factor in the protests around China. Even worse is the weird whataboutism about how bad US authorities have been dealing (or not) with covid.
Every report, anecdotal or not, makes the zero covid implementation in various Chinese cities appear absurd at best. More often, they seem unbelievable and crazy. There's no comparison to anything that's been implemented in the US.
posted by 2N2222 at 1:51 PM on November 27, 2022 [5 favorites]
Every report, anecdotal or not, makes the zero covid implementation in various Chinese cities appear absurd at best. More often, they seem unbelievable and crazy. There's no comparison to anything that's been implemented in the US.
posted by 2N2222 at 1:51 PM on November 27, 2022 [5 favorites]
Every report, anecdotal or not, makes the zero covid implementation in various Chinese cities appear absurd at best. More often, they seem unbelievable and crazy.
Watching the "China has erupted" video linked above, they're talking about [edit: and showing video of] people who've been locked into buildings as part of zero-Covid policy burning to death because they can't get out. And people being welded into their apartments.
I agree, that does seem unbelievable and crazy.
posted by clawsoon at 2:26 PM on November 27, 2022
Watching the "China has erupted" video linked above, they're talking about [edit: and showing video of] people who've been locked into buildings as part of zero-Covid policy burning to death because they can't get out. And people being welded into their apartments.
I agree, that does seem unbelievable and crazy.
posted by clawsoon at 2:26 PM on November 27, 2022
western "Covid hawks" really want to align sympathetically with zero covid policy. Or at least the idea of zero covid policy. And subsequently play down how much China's implementation of zero covid has been a factor in the protests around China.
I vehemently disagree with them, but will offer a semi-defense in the context of this particular post: the Zhengzou incident is the focus of the OP, and one can make a solid argument that it was primarily a case of labor unrest.
Most of the protests erupting all over China (fine, the biggest cities in China) right now are in response to the tragedy of the Urumqi fire, starting from the initial protest in Urumqi. They're absolutely about Zero Covid. The protesters shout slogans to remove the lockdowns. Reddit discussion.
Urumqi is the capital of Xinjiang. Do you (general you, not calling anyone out) have any idea how terrifying it is for Xinjiang residents to complain about the government in public, let alone to go on a street protest? Xinjiang.
The Beijing residents in this video ask the government to "Unlock Beijing, unlock the country". Do you have any idea how terrifying it is for Beijing residents to do this? Do you think they don't know about Tiananmen, where CCP called in military from other provinces because some of the local soldiers refused to massacre the students.
Do you think the student protestors in dozens of universities not realize their futures and lives are in grave danger? Do they not know that a significant number of Chinese people are calling for the rounds to empty and the tanks to roll? The students know, and still they have to protest, because Zero Covid have cost them, their loved ones, their fellow citizens too fucking much. They can no longer bear it, and they will risk everything to end it.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Mods, please let us know if you think this post and discussion should stay focused on the Zhengzou incident and labor unrest in China. I will try my best to make a separate post about the Urumqi fire, the subsequent protests, and Zero Covid. Because it is deeply offensive to play down the primary driver behind the mainland Chinese's single greatest attempt against oppression since Tiananmen, and I suspect none of us here really intends that.
posted by fatehunter at 2:56 PM on November 27, 2022 [8 favorites]
I vehemently disagree with them, but will offer a semi-defense in the context of this particular post: the Zhengzou incident is the focus of the OP, and one can make a solid argument that it was primarily a case of labor unrest.
Most of the protests erupting all over China (fine, the biggest cities in China) right now are in response to the tragedy of the Urumqi fire, starting from the initial protest in Urumqi. They're absolutely about Zero Covid. The protesters shout slogans to remove the lockdowns. Reddit discussion.
Urumqi is the capital of Xinjiang. Do you (general you, not calling anyone out) have any idea how terrifying it is for Xinjiang residents to complain about the government in public, let alone to go on a street protest? Xinjiang.
The Beijing residents in this video ask the government to "Unlock Beijing, unlock the country". Do you have any idea how terrifying it is for Beijing residents to do this? Do you think they don't know about Tiananmen, where CCP called in military from other provinces because some of the local soldiers refused to massacre the students.
Do you think the student protestors in dozens of universities not realize their futures and lives are in grave danger? Do they not know that a significant number of Chinese people are calling for the rounds to empty and the tanks to roll? The students know, and still they have to protest, because Zero Covid have cost them, their loved ones, their fellow citizens too fucking much. They can no longer bear it, and they will risk everything to end it.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Mods, please let us know if you think this post and discussion should stay focused on the Zhengzou incident and labor unrest in China. I will try my best to make a separate post about the Urumqi fire, the subsequent protests, and Zero Covid. Because it is deeply offensive to play down the primary driver behind the mainland Chinese's single greatest attempt against oppression since Tiananmen, and I suspect none of us here really intends that.
posted by fatehunter at 2:56 PM on November 27, 2022 [8 favorites]
Mods, please let us know if you think this post and discussion should stay focused on the Zhengzou incident and labor unrest in China. I will try my best to make a separate post about the Urumqi fire, the subsequent protests, and Zero Covid. Because it is deeply offensive to play down the primary driver behind the mainland Chinese's single greatest attempt against oppression since Tiananmen, and I suspect none of us here really intends that.
Not a Mod. But am the OP. I fully intended that the labour protests in Zhengzou would be seen in their full context, which includes the near-slavery conditions brought about by zero covid working practices. I can't see how they can be separated and I think those who believe the protests at Zhengzou are not zero-covid-policy related are denying the nature of Chinese working conditions in these mega-factories. Working conditions in huge foreign income-earning factories, and zero-covid policies, are both about social control.
posted by Thella at 6:05 PM on November 27, 2022 [4 favorites]
Not a Mod. But am the OP. I fully intended that the labour protests in Zhengzou would be seen in their full context, which includes the near-slavery conditions brought about by zero covid working practices. I can't see how they can be separated and I think those who believe the protests at Zhengzou are not zero-covid-policy related are denying the nature of Chinese working conditions in these mega-factories. Working conditions in huge foreign income-earning factories, and zero-covid policies, are both about social control.
posted by Thella at 6:05 PM on November 27, 2022 [4 favorites]
Thank you, Thella. I'll keep posting here, unless mods say they prefer a separate post.
Quick summary for those just catching up: "Anti-lockdown and anti-government protests all over China after deadly Xinjiang fire"
My last Weibo accounts all got bombed this year, and it's near impossible for foreigners to open a new account these days, so I've lost touch with many mainland Chinese friends. It looks like Weibo is pushing the posts painting protestors as pawns for foreign interference, and the accounts I used to follow have stopped talking (about the protests / altogether). As expected.
Still, quite a few of them are talking freely outside the Great Firewall. I don't know how much influence they have or how long they can keep up - CCP can choke off VPN access if/when they feel like it. Who the hell knows anything anymore? Except the fact there's no going back from this. Something will give.
posted by fatehunter at 6:25 PM on November 27, 2022 [3 favorites]
Quick summary for those just catching up: "Anti-lockdown and anti-government protests all over China after deadly Xinjiang fire"
My last Weibo accounts all got bombed this year, and it's near impossible for foreigners to open a new account these days, so I've lost touch with many mainland Chinese friends. It looks like Weibo is pushing the posts painting protestors as pawns for foreign interference, and the accounts I used to follow have stopped talking (about the protests / altogether). As expected.
Still, quite a few of them are talking freely outside the Great Firewall. I don't know how much influence they have or how long they can keep up - CCP can choke off VPN access if/when they feel like it. Who the hell knows anything anymore? Except the fact there's no going back from this. Something will give.
posted by fatehunter at 6:25 PM on November 27, 2022 [3 favorites]
I will say, in my small city there haven't been any big centralized protests, but people are definitely not happy with zero covid. You can see my post a few days ago, at that point lockdown had just started...now that lockdown has been going for a few days and people have had to experience more of it, there has been a lot of decentralized resistance. At least here it really hasn't been tied to anything bigger, if that makes sense, and I think that is probably what has given fuel to create the bigger protests. What I mean is that the people knocking down the makeshift barricades the government used to "lockdown" major streets I don't think see it as an act of protest per se, they just think it's all bullshit and are sort of at there limit. Over the last few days I have had a lot of reports come in via friends of acts of resistance and defiance. While the response from the city thus far has largely been "uhhh uhhh uhhh uhhhhhhhhh", in a few cases some people got arrested (they got violent towards some workers at a barricade, I think), but in others the city also folded. there are a bunch of reports on chinese social media of overzealous cities or local town governments or local neighborhoods overstepping how much lockdown they can do...and the people won in that they appealed to central authorities, and central authorities did not support the overzealous lockdown. But things here tend to reallllly vary region by region, city by city, town by town...
No conclusions, really, just a little personal anecdata on how this seems to be playing out a bit locally. I'm definitely starting to see a lot of chafing at zero covid in a way I haven't seen at any other point in the pandemic here.
Also, I don't know if a debate about zero covid is appropriate here, but I think it's important to underscore just how scary what has gone down in the US looks to a lot of people here. until now, the vast majority of china wasn't really affected by zero covid...if some people in shanghai have to suffer a bit, meh. the major cities are important but it's also important to remember just how much of china's population is in "small" cities (in quotes because they are generally larger than all but the largest western cities, my small city is like ~100 in china and would be #2 in the US) all through the country. it's a complicated dance, but it's clear that now that zero covid is spreading further, people are not happy. in my neighborhood, however, things are still pretty organized. but people are annoyed: why are we locked down? we have 0 cases! etc etc. but b/c we have 0 cases, lockdown measures have also thus far been more mild.
Oh and at least talking within my network...people seem to know that something "is going on in beijing," but nobody has any idea what. Searching, social media, wechat etc is in full censorship mode, it's hard to get any information. People I know here haven't really tied it to what happened in Xinjiang. I don't think that is necessarily representative of the protesters, who almost certainly have people who have better access to information (the majority of people I know here do not have VPNs, and if they do they use them for video games, not news). but it's interesting to see how conversations here reflect what I see going on...
posted by wooh at 6:48 PM on November 27, 2022 [8 favorites]
No conclusions, really, just a little personal anecdata on how this seems to be playing out a bit locally. I'm definitely starting to see a lot of chafing at zero covid in a way I haven't seen at any other point in the pandemic here.
Also, I don't know if a debate about zero covid is appropriate here, but I think it's important to underscore just how scary what has gone down in the US looks to a lot of people here. until now, the vast majority of china wasn't really affected by zero covid...if some people in shanghai have to suffer a bit, meh. the major cities are important but it's also important to remember just how much of china's population is in "small" cities (in quotes because they are generally larger than all but the largest western cities, my small city is like ~100 in china and would be #2 in the US) all through the country. it's a complicated dance, but it's clear that now that zero covid is spreading further, people are not happy. in my neighborhood, however, things are still pretty organized. but people are annoyed: why are we locked down? we have 0 cases! etc etc. but b/c we have 0 cases, lockdown measures have also thus far been more mild.
Oh and at least talking within my network...people seem to know that something "is going on in beijing," but nobody has any idea what. Searching, social media, wechat etc is in full censorship mode, it's hard to get any information. People I know here haven't really tied it to what happened in Xinjiang. I don't think that is necessarily representative of the protesters, who almost certainly have people who have better access to information (the majority of people I know here do not have VPNs, and if they do they use them for video games, not news). but it's interesting to see how conversations here reflect what I see going on...
posted by wooh at 6:48 PM on November 27, 2022 [8 favorites]
wooh: Oh and at least talking within my network...people seem to know that something "is going on in beijing," but nobody has any idea what.
It's interesting how we've gotten used to the instant-news world of CNN and Twitter so quickly. What you're describing is how things were for most periods of unrest and protest in most of history: Occasionally a well-coordinated campaign would get the word out efficiently, but mostly it was people making gambles based on garbled snippets of rumor.
posted by clawsoon at 8:35 PM on November 27, 2022 [1 favorite]
It's interesting how we've gotten used to the instant-news world of CNN and Twitter so quickly. What you're describing is how things were for most periods of unrest and protest in most of history: Occasionally a well-coordinated campaign would get the word out efficiently, but mostly it was people making gambles based on garbled snippets of rumor.
posted by clawsoon at 8:35 PM on November 27, 2022 [1 favorite]
until now, the vast majority of china wasn't really affected by zero covid...if some people in shanghai have to suffer a bit, meh. the major cities are important but it's also important to remember just how much of china's population is in "small" cities
Thank you for sharing, wooh. I didn't fully realize how biased my exposure to mainland Chinese viewpoints were until Weibo started showing the locations people posted from. Most of my friends, as well as the ~big accounts I followed and agreed with, lived in the major cities. Like, I'd always known that was probably the case, but not to that extent. Weibo users on average skewed upper-market than Douyin, which was above Kuaishou. Douban always skewed toward educated youth, and so on.
The mainland Chinese I know have been expecting a blow-up over Zero Covid and other incidents this year like the chained woman in Xuzhou (and the ensuing discussions about human trafficking under local government cover-up); the restaurant attack in Tangshan (and the subsequent revelations about gang violence under local government cover-up); the real estate implosion (and the way Zero Covid was used for suppression); and the high unemployment, especially among youth... Powder kegs all over the big cities, but no one expected the fuse to be lit in Xinjiang, even though everyone knew the people there were among the most severely oppressed for the longest time.
Yet the least empowered compatriots stood up, pushed back, and got the local government to bend (in the dumbest way possible - how the hell do you announce you've suddenly achieved ~social zero~ after three months of lockdown and still hundreds of daily cases right before? You're openly admitting your own BS for all that time!). That had to be one of the reasons why people elsewhere followed their lead.
No one knows what happens. Even if CCP manages to deflate this movement, the animosity many feel toward the government - down to individual employees, even - is not going away. It's fast approaching Hong Kong's level, if still quite some distance from Iran's. The challenges CCP faces grow more numerous and serious every month. Cracks are showing faster than they can paint over. (fandom aside: when they announced the sentencing of superstar Kris Wu as a distraction, everyone applauded and lol-ed. on one hand, the rapist deserved it; otoh, Kris came from kpop, and the Korean government perfected the art of releasing celebrity scandals to distract from political ones. moment of dark humor in this trying time)
posted by fatehunter at 8:56 PM on November 27, 2022 [3 favorites]
Thank you for sharing, wooh. I didn't fully realize how biased my exposure to mainland Chinese viewpoints were until Weibo started showing the locations people posted from. Most of my friends, as well as the ~big accounts I followed and agreed with, lived in the major cities. Like, I'd always known that was probably the case, but not to that extent. Weibo users on average skewed upper-market than Douyin, which was above Kuaishou. Douban always skewed toward educated youth, and so on.
The mainland Chinese I know have been expecting a blow-up over Zero Covid and other incidents this year like the chained woman in Xuzhou (and the ensuing discussions about human trafficking under local government cover-up); the restaurant attack in Tangshan (and the subsequent revelations about gang violence under local government cover-up); the real estate implosion (and the way Zero Covid was used for suppression); and the high unemployment, especially among youth... Powder kegs all over the big cities, but no one expected the fuse to be lit in Xinjiang, even though everyone knew the people there were among the most severely oppressed for the longest time.
Yet the least empowered compatriots stood up, pushed back, and got the local government to bend (in the dumbest way possible - how the hell do you announce you've suddenly achieved ~social zero~ after three months of lockdown and still hundreds of daily cases right before? You're openly admitting your own BS for all that time!). That had to be one of the reasons why people elsewhere followed their lead.
No one knows what happens. Even if CCP manages to deflate this movement, the animosity many feel toward the government - down to individual employees, even - is not going away. It's fast approaching Hong Kong's level, if still quite some distance from Iran's. The challenges CCP faces grow more numerous and serious every month. Cracks are showing faster than they can paint over. (fandom aside: when they announced the sentencing of superstar Kris Wu as a distraction, everyone applauded and lol-ed. on one hand, the rapist deserved it; otoh, Kris came from kpop, and the Korean government perfected the art of releasing celebrity scandals to distract from political ones. moment of dark humor in this trying time)
posted by fatehunter at 8:56 PM on November 27, 2022 [3 favorites]
I highly, highly recommend Xu Lizhi's poems alongside this news: https://libcom.org/article/poetry-and-brief-life-foxconn-worker-xu-lizhi-1990-2014
posted by dorothyisunderwood at 10:37 PM on November 27, 2022 [6 favorites]
posted by dorothyisunderwood at 10:37 PM on November 27, 2022 [6 favorites]
Speaking of Apple, a couple of weeks ago Apple released a new iOS version which - but only for phones that had been sold in China - limited a feature which "protesters in the country had been using... to spread posters opposing Xi Jinping and the Chinese government."
Interesting.
posted by clawsoon at 10:42 PM on November 27, 2022
Interesting.
posted by clawsoon at 10:42 PM on November 27, 2022
Thanks dorothyisunderwood
From your link...
From your link...
Most of Xu’s early poems were descriptions of life on the assembly line. In “Workshop, My Youth Was Stranded Here,” he described his conditions at the time: “Beside the assembly line, tens of thousands of workers [dagongzhe]1 line up like words on a page/ 'Faster, hurry up!'/ Standing among them, I hear the supervisor bark.” He felt that “Once you’ve entered the workshop/ The only choice is submission,” and that his youth was coldly slipping away, so he could only “Watch it being ground away day and night/ Pressed, polished, molded/ Into a few measly bills, so-called wages.”posted by Thella at 10:52 PM on November 27, 2022 [2 favorites]
许立志 Xu Lizhi
《一颗螺丝掉在地上》
"A Screw Fell to the Ground"
一颗螺丝掉在地上
A screw fell to the ground
在这个加班的夜晚
In this dark night of overtime
垂直降落，轻轻一响
Plunging vertically, lightly clinking
不会引起任何人的注意
It won’t attract anyone’s attention
就像在此之前
Just like last time
某个相同的夜晚
On a night like this
有个人掉在地上
When someone plunged to the ground
-- 9 January 2014
posted by zenon at 8:54 AM on November 28, 2022 [5 favorites]
《一颗螺丝掉在地上》
"A Screw Fell to the Ground"
一颗螺丝掉在地上
A screw fell to the ground
在这个加班的夜晚
In this dark night of overtime
垂直降落，轻轻一响
Plunging vertically, lightly clinking
不会引起任何人的注意
It won’t attract anyone’s attention
就像在此之前
Just like last time
某个相同的夜晚
On a night like this
有个人掉在地上
When someone plunged to the ground
-- 9 January 2014
posted by zenon at 8:54 AM on November 28, 2022 [5 favorites]
Update: the Chinese government is defending Zero Covid measures and promising to relax them at the same time. They have also promised to crack down on the protests.
CCP has been flooding Chinese social media with revelations like "one PCR company registered 16 labs in this year alone, often right before case counts rose at those locations" (Chinese links: 1, 2). It confirms what everyone had long suspected about the mandatory PCR tests every three days (two days in extreme cases). There are even reports of sabotage to increase false positives. Who would have thought? The Chinese people got scammed by ~capital again! Never mind who mandated those PCR tests and gave the contracts to those private companies in the first place.
This is a familiar playbook. It may still work this time. I wonder about many things, though. Like the fact that CCP is scapegoating local authorities again, as they did with the initial Covid outbreak in Wuhan, and so many other crises. Sure, some of the local authorities have done terrible jobs, but they must be getting tired of the blame game by now, especially given that many of them face budget crises from the implosion of the real estate sector, which is a direct result of central government policy.
When I ranted about the Shanghai lockdown in April, I did still think better local governance could have made it work reasonably well, as Shenzhen had demonstrated at the time. But cities after cities have put on shitshows in the months since, including city-of-the-future Shenzhen. At some point the buck should be passed back up the command chain.
posted by fatehunter at 8:49 PM on November 29, 2022 [3 favorites]
CCP has been flooding Chinese social media with revelations like "one PCR company registered 16 labs in this year alone, often right before case counts rose at those locations" (Chinese links: 1, 2). It confirms what everyone had long suspected about the mandatory PCR tests every three days (two days in extreme cases). There are even reports of sabotage to increase false positives. Who would have thought? The Chinese people got scammed by ~capital again! Never mind who mandated those PCR tests and gave the contracts to those private companies in the first place.
This is a familiar playbook. It may still work this time. I wonder about many things, though. Like the fact that CCP is scapegoating local authorities again, as they did with the initial Covid outbreak in Wuhan, and so many other crises. Sure, some of the local authorities have done terrible jobs, but they must be getting tired of the blame game by now, especially given that many of them face budget crises from the implosion of the real estate sector, which is a direct result of central government policy.
When I ranted about the Shanghai lockdown in April, I did still think better local governance could have made it work reasonably well, as Shenzhen had demonstrated at the time. But cities after cities have put on shitshows in the months since, including city-of-the-future Shenzhen. At some point the buck should be passed back up the command chain.
posted by fatehunter at 8:49 PM on November 29, 2022 [3 favorites]
Guangzhou has just relaxed its Covid measures/lockdowns less than 24 hours after a violent street protest.
Also Jiang Zemin died.
posted by fatehunter at 1:12 AM on November 30, 2022 [2 favorites]
Also Jiang Zemin died.
posted by fatehunter at 1:12 AM on November 30, 2022 [2 favorites]
Folks in China, how is all this going where you are?
Western reporting sounds like controls are loosened enough that China is doing an 'escape wave', where (my assessment) probably most of the population would get infected over the next couple of months. Is zero covid really done like that? And are people vaccinated, are old people getting boosters?
From where I sit, I wish decision makers thought all this through. And right now
I hope people's parents and grandparents make it through this.
posted by away for regrooving at 11:37 PM on December 13, 2022
Western reporting sounds like controls are loosened enough that China is doing an 'escape wave', where (my assessment) probably most of the population would get infected over the next couple of months. Is zero covid really done like that? And are people vaccinated, are old people getting boosters?
From where I sit, I wish decision makers thought all this through. And right now
I hope people's parents and grandparents make it through this.
posted by away for regrooving at 11:37 PM on December 13, 2022
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posted by interogative mood at 6:04 PM on November 25, 2022 [18 favorites]