“Let me guess. Somebody stole your sweetroll.”
December 11, 2022 6:54 AM Subscribe
He is very methodical with his plan on how to go through each area of the map and specific questlines that need to be initiated in order for those NPCs to spawn in and then become killable.
posted by Fizz at 7:57 AM on December 11, 2022
posted by Fizz at 7:57 AM on December 11, 2022
At about the 5 minute mark the narrator decides to call Imperials "pussies" so I'm out on this one.
posted by curious nu at 8:10 AM on December 11, 2022 [14 favorites]
posted by curious nu at 8:10 AM on December 11, 2022 [14 favorites]
I did an omnicidal run of Outer Worlds once, but not with this level of thoroughness. Not least because there is an NPC in Stellar Bay who shares the name of one of my favorite coworkers, and I didn’t have the heart. So when I left the depopulated town behind, that one NPC remained. Incidentally, that NPC was constantly smoking cigarettes, so they were properly smoking ruins.
posted by notoriety public at 8:10 AM on December 11, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by notoriety public at 8:10 AM on December 11, 2022 [2 favorites]
Hah! This was fun. Really the hardest part of so many projects is the data cleaning, and this seems no exception. Really difficult constraint in the premise: if you have to do some certain questline to spawn some particular NPC to kill them, then by definition you cannot have already killed any of the NPCs required to complete that questline. Sitting behind the one NPC and punching him a million times to level up sneak early was funny. Editing pretty good too. Thanks for the post.
posted by lazaruslong at 8:33 AM on December 11, 2022
posted by lazaruslong at 8:33 AM on December 11, 2022
I’ll say this much: there’s a certain large ally you’re asked to kill at the very end of the main story, that had me absolutely enraged at the two people who insisted on it - and you literally can’t join a major faction otherwise. Dug through console commands and ID tags, stripped off all their unkillable NPC protections and burned them both to death.
Fuck that and fuck the both of you. We’d all be dead without him and I’m going to make sure that shitty idea of yours dies with you fuckers. If nothing else the kind of Skyrim I’m going to be hero of is the kind where we don’t do that to people willing to reach across the racial divide in charity and good faith. Fucking assholes, I swear (still angry about this).
posted by Ryvar at 8:48 AM on December 11, 2022 [27 favorites]
Fuck that and fuck the both of you. We’d all be dead without him and I’m going to make sure that shitty idea of yours dies with you fuckers. If nothing else the kind of Skyrim I’m going to be hero of is the kind where we don’t do that to people willing to reach across the racial divide in charity and good faith. Fucking assholes, I swear (still angry about this).
posted by Ryvar at 8:48 AM on December 11, 2022 [27 favorites]
There's a mod you can install for Skyrim that tells those people that uh, actually you're the Dragonborn and in charge, and they should stay in their fucking lanes. I haven't tried it out yet myself, but I'm told it's very popular.
posted by Mr. Bad Example at 10:13 AM on December 11, 2022 [11 favorites]
posted by Mr. Bad Example at 10:13 AM on December 11, 2022 [11 favorites]
I appreciate that the game does try to show what bigotry/racism looks like in the world it's built. Just try being an elf, argonian, or basically any race that isn't default viking white man and wait for the snide comments to start rolling in from NPCs.
What I don't appreciate is that I'm forced to choose between nazis and/or a colonizing occupying empire that honestly doesn't feel that much different than the nazis, just a bit more diet-nazi in flavour.
The satisfaction of this game is that I will likely never finish it and am free to wander around getting jacked up on all my stats so I can just shout-murder assholes who get in my way. Also, its super fun and satisfying to RP as a revolutionary fighting back against both of these factions.
But yeah, fuck almost all of the politicians and factions of this game. They're pretty garbo.
posted by Fizz at 10:36 AM on December 11, 2022 [3 favorites]
What I don't appreciate is that I'm forced to choose between nazis and/or a colonizing occupying empire that honestly doesn't feel that much different than the nazis, just a bit more diet-nazi in flavour.
The satisfaction of this game is that I will likely never finish it and am free to wander around getting jacked up on all my stats so I can just shout-murder assholes who get in my way. Also, its super fun and satisfying to RP as a revolutionary fighting back against both of these factions.
But yeah, fuck almost all of the politicians and factions of this game. They're pretty garbo.
posted by Fizz at 10:36 AM on December 11, 2022 [3 favorites]
What I don't appreciate is that I'm forced to choose between nazis and/or a colonizing occupying empire that honestly doesn't feel that much different than the nazis, just a bit more diet-nazi in flavour.
Flashbacks to Disco Elysium...
posted by subdee at 10:41 AM on December 11, 2022 [4 favorites]
I once, in a fit of experimental boredom, decided to replay Deus Ex: Human Revolution, a game I love in significant part for its stealthy options, with the goal of instead killing everybody in the game, mostly on the premise that it wasn't the sort of game where that was likely to have been planned for in detail and it can be interesting to see how games break under pathological misbehavior. Like, it was part of the design of the game that you could kill some major NPCs, at least at some point; and you could also kill random people on the streets (da da dee da day) though weren't in any way incentivized to do so and were fairly actively disincentivized by local law enforcement etc.
And the whole exercise was, and I feel sort of idiotic saying this as if it's a revelation, pretty bleak. And pretty dull! Setting aside the murderous psychopathy of the premise itself, the game really didn't do anything interesting with this behavior.
There were first-order mechanics that made sense: you're on the street, and you attack a civilian? The cops start chasing you. Mess with a cop? Likewise. But the normal gameplay of DE:HR involves maybe accidentally harming a civilian or violating some boundary, getting cops mad at you, and doing your best to get away and let the cop attention meter run down. Video game abstraction, works fine as a rough "oops, better regroup and probably don't try THAT again" nudge. But in this scenario, mostly what it meant in practice was: find a somewhat isolated group of cops/security, take them out, find a hiding place until they cool down, repeat. And once that's done, there's no magic respawning cops so now you can go around chasing down every civilian without recourse. Abstraction broken, and the actual work of going on a serial killing spree at that point is a tedious as it is ugly.
Repeat for every major section of the game. Finish realizing your notes about the resulting series of mechanical failures and wrinkles isn't as interesting as you were hoping. Like I said, bleak exercise.
There were a couple mechanically interesting moments: the (second, I guess) opening gameplay sequence starts with you as underpowered and poorly armed as you'll ever be in the game, notionally getting ready to work with a swat team to save some hostages from some terrorists. In this setup it was, well, kill the swat team, the hostages, and the terrorists, starting with three well-armored dudes nominally on your side, and figuring out how to drop all three of them in a very small room without getting killed was an interesting combat puzzle! And there's a police station to clear out at one point on the map where the "find a place to hide from the cops till they cool down" gambit doesn't work as well.
And there were also big artificial barriers to the goal: some areas of gameplay (notably the HQ that is a plot hub of the game) are zero-combat zones where you're just artificially prevented from committing acts of violence. Not, it's clear from the rest of the game, because you're not allowed to unreasoanbly harm civilians or NPCs, but because it was gonna break the plot flow of the game to do that. Reasonable as a design decision, but also giving a lie to the openness of the game's choices. (This is a recurring theme in basically any game with both and open world and a main plot: you can do whatever you want, as long as you don't want to try to kill someone who the game really wants to live. Or vice versa. In Deus Ex, they just take your guns away for those situations; for a lot of games historically, they might just make NPCs invulnerable or immortal, either ignoring or just being sort of tsk-tsk annoyed by your attempts to commit lethal violence on their person before moving on with their speech or their day.)
Video game violence is such an abstracted thing, and such a baked-in part of so much game design (and of almost ALL of non-sports AAA game design) that this whole thing manages to feel less horrifying than it would out of context. But it's also just: gross. You can't really get away from it being gross even as you work with the abstractions. Skyrim is probably a better choice for this kind of thing not least because it has a sort of inherently fantastical and theatrical feel to it that makes that distance feel less weird; Deus Ex is trying to be grounded and real and in that setting chasing down anonymous civilians feels more close to just literally cosplaying real-world psychopathy, which just genuinely isn't fun.
posted by cortex at 10:49 AM on December 11, 2022 [11 favorites]
And the whole exercise was, and I feel sort of idiotic saying this as if it's a revelation, pretty bleak. And pretty dull! Setting aside the murderous psychopathy of the premise itself, the game really didn't do anything interesting with this behavior.
There were first-order mechanics that made sense: you're on the street, and you attack a civilian? The cops start chasing you. Mess with a cop? Likewise. But the normal gameplay of DE:HR involves maybe accidentally harming a civilian or violating some boundary, getting cops mad at you, and doing your best to get away and let the cop attention meter run down. Video game abstraction, works fine as a rough "oops, better regroup and probably don't try THAT again" nudge. But in this scenario, mostly what it meant in practice was: find a somewhat isolated group of cops/security, take them out, find a hiding place until they cool down, repeat. And once that's done, there's no magic respawning cops so now you can go around chasing down every civilian without recourse. Abstraction broken, and the actual work of going on a serial killing spree at that point is a tedious as it is ugly.
Repeat for every major section of the game. Finish realizing your notes about the resulting series of mechanical failures and wrinkles isn't as interesting as you were hoping. Like I said, bleak exercise.
There were a couple mechanically interesting moments: the (second, I guess) opening gameplay sequence starts with you as underpowered and poorly armed as you'll ever be in the game, notionally getting ready to work with a swat team to save some hostages from some terrorists. In this setup it was, well, kill the swat team, the hostages, and the terrorists, starting with three well-armored dudes nominally on your side, and figuring out how to drop all three of them in a very small room without getting killed was an interesting combat puzzle! And there's a police station to clear out at one point on the map where the "find a place to hide from the cops till they cool down" gambit doesn't work as well.
And there were also big artificial barriers to the goal: some areas of gameplay (notably the HQ that is a plot hub of the game) are zero-combat zones where you're just artificially prevented from committing acts of violence. Not, it's clear from the rest of the game, because you're not allowed to unreasoanbly harm civilians or NPCs, but because it was gonna break the plot flow of the game to do that. Reasonable as a design decision, but also giving a lie to the openness of the game's choices. (This is a recurring theme in basically any game with both and open world and a main plot: you can do whatever you want, as long as you don't want to try to kill someone who the game really wants to live. Or vice versa. In Deus Ex, they just take your guns away for those situations; for a lot of games historically, they might just make NPCs invulnerable or immortal, either ignoring or just being sort of tsk-tsk annoyed by your attempts to commit lethal violence on their person before moving on with their speech or their day.)
Video game violence is such an abstracted thing, and such a baked-in part of so much game design (and of almost ALL of non-sports AAA game design) that this whole thing manages to feel less horrifying than it would out of context. But it's also just: gross. You can't really get away from it being gross even as you work with the abstractions. Skyrim is probably a better choice for this kind of thing not least because it has a sort of inherently fantastical and theatrical feel to it that makes that distance feel less weird; Deus Ex is trying to be grounded and real and in that setting chasing down anonymous civilians feels more close to just literally cosplaying real-world psychopathy, which just genuinely isn't fun.
posted by cortex at 10:49 AM on December 11, 2022 [11 favorites]
Ryvar- I will not give away any spoilers, but I know exactly which NPC of whom you're speaking. You don't have to kill them if you don't want to kill them. It does not prevent you from completing the main questline. Yes, by doing so you will lose the support of some other NPCs, but you can continue on with the main quest.
posted by nightrecordings at 10:49 AM on December 11, 2022 [4 favorites]
posted by nightrecordings at 10:49 AM on December 11, 2022 [4 favorites]
Video game violence is such an abstracted thing, and such a baked-in part of so much game design (and of almost ALL of non-sports AAA game design) that this whole thing manages to feel less horrifying than it would out of context. But it's also just: gross. You can't really get away from it being gross even as you work with the abstractions. Skyrim is probably a better choice for this kind of thing not least because it has a sort of inherently fantastical and theatrical feel to it that makes that distance feel less weird; Deus Ex is trying to be grounded and real and in that setting chasing down anonymous civilians feels more close to just literally cosplaying real-world psychopathy, which just genuinely isn't fun.This has me thinking of how Red Dead Redemption 2 uses a reputation/honor system with the choices you make and how it impacts how the world and the NPCs in that world react to you. You choose not to help that man by the creek who just got snake-bitten, and shoot and then rob him instead, you're going to see a little angry cowboy symbol with a red minus sign indicating the choice you just made has reduced your honor.
BUT.....if thats the type of playthrough you want, it ends up opening up a whole host of interesting branches down the road. You can only buy certain types of equipment/clothing based on whatever honor rating you currently have in the game. It's always interesting to see how this plays out in a game like RDR2.
posted by Fizz at 11:05 AM on December 11, 2022
Flashbacks to Disco Elysium...
And to World War II
posted by Apocryphon at 11:10 AM on December 11, 2022 [1 favorite]
And to World War II
posted by Apocryphon at 11:10 AM on December 11, 2022 [1 favorite]
It does not prevent you from completing the main questline.
Correct. It just hard blocks your participation in their faction and RADIANT quests going forward. Which my “solution” doesn’t solve in any way, but I feel better knowing there’s nobody from their faction left alive in Skyrim, and maybe - maaaaybe - their poisonous notion died with them rather than getting reported back to a more central leadership elsewhere for followup once those two were marked “missing, presumed dead.”
On reflection I should’ve tried to feed at least one of them to that betrayal Daedra’s shrine just for irony points.
posted by Ryvar at 11:31 AM on December 11, 2022 [6 favorites]
Correct. It just hard blocks your participation in their faction and RADIANT quests going forward. Which my “solution” doesn’t solve in any way, but I feel better knowing there’s nobody from their faction left alive in Skyrim, and maybe - maaaaybe - their poisonous notion died with them rather than getting reported back to a more central leadership elsewhere for followup once those two were marked “missing, presumed dead.”
On reflection I should’ve tried to feed at least one of them to that betrayal Daedra’s shrine just for irony points.
posted by Ryvar at 11:31 AM on December 11, 2022 [6 favorites]
I did this once in the Mass Effect trilogy: did a playthrough that I called the "Wall of Death" playthrough, because in the third game, there's a memorial wall for deceased squadmates and assorted NPCs, and well before the third game was over, I ran out of wall space. Pretty grim and bleak.
posted by Halloween Jack at 1:29 PM on December 11, 2022 [3 favorites]
posted by Halloween Jack at 1:29 PM on December 11, 2022 [3 favorites]
I watch too much Isekai to want to kill NPCs for giggles. Instead I play the Sniper Elite games. The whole point is to kill as many of the Nazi's as possible. In SE4 you also have the choice to just take them out of action, but, fuck that, they're NAZIs, they should die. You will be surprised perhaps that I'm not Vegan or a pacifist.
posted by evilDoug at 8:10 PM on December 11, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by evilDoug at 8:10 PM on December 11, 2022 [1 favorite]
forced to choose between nazis and/or a colonizing occupying empire
I've played Skyrim an embarassing number of times in the last ten years and I don't think I've ever completed the civil war storyline. It works extremely well as a background thing that I don't have to solve because I have more important things to do!
posted by goblin-bee at 8:22 PM on December 11, 2022 [5 favorites]
I've played Skyrim an embarassing number of times in the last ten years and I don't think I've ever completed the civil war storyline. It works extremely well as a background thing that I don't have to solve because I have more important things to do!
posted by goblin-bee at 8:22 PM on December 11, 2022 [5 favorites]
Actually that's a lie; I did play through it once to see what the house in Windhelm was like, but it wasn't worth it. The main thing I remember from that playthrough is that Serana looked a lot better in Ulfric's clothes than Ulfric ever did.
posted by goblin-bee at 8:27 PM on December 11, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by goblin-bee at 8:27 PM on December 11, 2022 [1 favorite]
For a fun play through on PC, hit the console at level 1 and give yourself a few million gold. Being rich changes the game so much in unexpected ways: leveling, crafting, equipment, housing, time saving. Perhaps like real life, eh?
I call it “The Bruce Wayne”.
posted by SunSnork at 8:58 PM on December 11, 2022 [7 favorites]
I call it “The Bruce Wayne”.
posted by SunSnork at 8:58 PM on December 11, 2022 [7 favorites]
If you enjoy people breaking games, there's a channel called Let's Game It Out that often is hilarious. He really did a number on Satisfactory, one of my favourite games ever, and the reaction videos from people who play Satisfactory "seriously" were as much fun as the original video.
posted by Harald74 at 11:31 PM on December 11, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by Harald74 at 11:31 PM on December 11, 2022 [1 favorite]
I've never done this, but my understanding is that Fallout New Vegas actually allows for an omicidal run and has made it so that the game will not break. The one exception is Yes man who possesses another securitron if you kill him. And given his programming, he won't attack you or anything. So not unkillable, but you can't get rid if him either.
I suspect that the first two fallout games allow for the same, but once again, I've never checked. Actually, fallout 2 probably prevents this, as the elder and the shaman have to be around for fixed scenes.
And checking, you can kill everyone in divinity original sin 2. Except for one character. Who will die through plot actions instead.
I've never done these runs because like the video shows, it gets tedious and boring really quick.
posted by Hactar at 2:07 AM on December 12, 2022
I suspect that the first two fallout games allow for the same, but once again, I've never checked. Actually, fallout 2 probably prevents this, as the elder and the shaman have to be around for fixed scenes.
And checking, you can kill everyone in divinity original sin 2. Except for one character. Who will die through plot actions instead.
I've never done these runs because like the video shows, it gets tedious and boring really quick.
posted by Hactar at 2:07 AM on December 12, 2022
Man. Skyrim.
I bought that game when I had "grown up money" so I ended up *also* purchasing all the DLC.
I booted it up on Steam for the first time - completely oblivious to the fact that I'd activated all of the DLC missions.
So I assumed Dawnguard was just, basically, the vanilla game. Baffling. I ended up with an NPC vampire sidekick lady (this is all still kind of a fever dream) - and she was more or less unkillable.
This ruined the game, I completely lost the plot, and I haven't really played it since.
I think I'm going to actually do the work now of figuring out how to play the original - thanks for this post, it reminded me to go play skyrim now, but for real this time.
posted by Baby_Balrog at 8:09 AM on December 12, 2022 [1 favorite]
I bought that game when I had "grown up money" so I ended up *also* purchasing all the DLC.
I booted it up on Steam for the first time - completely oblivious to the fact that I'd activated all of the DLC missions.
So I assumed Dawnguard was just, basically, the vanilla game. Baffling. I ended up with an NPC vampire sidekick lady (this is all still kind of a fever dream) - and she was more or less unkillable.
This ruined the game, I completely lost the plot, and I haven't really played it since.
I think I'm going to actually do the work now of figuring out how to play the original - thanks for this post, it reminded me to go play skyrim now, but for real this time.
posted by Baby_Balrog at 8:09 AM on December 12, 2022 [1 favorite]
Baby_Balrog:
The advice from my most-favorited comment ever on setting up a solid modded Skyrim install is largely out of date, but a few points are true:
Get the Unofficial Bugfix packs
Get Frostfall. It honestly makes the game.
Everything else is negotiable, but Frostfall puts real teeth and gameplay consequences on all that cold and snow and those exposed mountain peaks. Misjudge a jump between ice patches out on the north coast and you’re on a 30 second fatal hypothermia timer (this can be warded against with advanced alchemy and/pr magic, of course). Armor is no longer just a straight race to Daedric - depending on where you are and where you’re headed (particularly some DLC areas) Fur Armor may literally be a matter of life or death. Mod whatever else to taste, but Frostfall should be considered an essential component to the base experience, even on a first playthrough.
posted by Ryvar at 10:08 AM on December 12, 2022 [1 favorite]
The advice from my most-favorited comment ever on setting up a solid modded Skyrim install is largely out of date, but a few points are true:
Get the Unofficial Bugfix packs
Get Frostfall. It honestly makes the game.
Everything else is negotiable, but Frostfall puts real teeth and gameplay consequences on all that cold and snow and those exposed mountain peaks. Misjudge a jump between ice patches out on the north coast and you’re on a 30 second fatal hypothermia timer (this can be warded against with advanced alchemy and/pr magic, of course). Armor is no longer just a straight race to Daedric - depending on where you are and where you’re headed (particularly some DLC areas) Fur Armor may literally be a matter of life or death. Mod whatever else to taste, but Frostfall should be considered an essential component to the base experience, even on a first playthrough.
posted by Ryvar at 10:08 AM on December 12, 2022 [1 favorite]
Video game violence is such an abstracted thing, and such a baked-in part of so much game design (and of almost ALL of non-sports AAA game design)
Shout-out to one of my childhood favorites, the Telarium game Below the Root, released under their "Windham Classics" line and based on the Green-Sky trilogy of Zilpha Keatley Snyder. It's a game where, despite the existence of violent antagonists, you have no means whatsoever for fighting back until well into the game. And as for that means: if you use it, it brutally damages your ability to use the game's magic system (in the game, and the books it's based on, the "spirit skills" are dependent on kindness and openheartedness, so this punishment is thematically justified), to the extent that using it too much will make the game unwinnable. Basically, even though you can kill, doing so is so psychically damaging that almost any other way of dealing with those who would stop your progress is better. It's one of the only videogames I can think of with pacifism as a core theme with mechanical support.
posted by jackbishop at 12:07 PM on December 12, 2022
Shout-out to one of my childhood favorites, the Telarium game Below the Root, released under their "Windham Classics" line and based on the Green-Sky trilogy of Zilpha Keatley Snyder. It's a game where, despite the existence of violent antagonists, you have no means whatsoever for fighting back until well into the game. And as for that means: if you use it, it brutally damages your ability to use the game's magic system (in the game, and the books it's based on, the "spirit skills" are dependent on kindness and openheartedness, so this punishment is thematically justified), to the extent that using it too much will make the game unwinnable. Basically, even though you can kill, doing so is so psychically damaging that almost any other way of dealing with those who would stop your progress is better. It's one of the only videogames I can think of with pacifism as a core theme with mechanical support.
posted by jackbishop at 12:07 PM on December 12, 2022
I suspect that the first two fallout games allow for the same, but once again, I've never checked. Actually, fallout 2 probably prevents this, as the elder and the shaman have to be around for fixed scenes.
I know fallout 1 does, but there's a particular trick to get the overseer at the end. The only reason I didn't give it a try is because, as you say, it gets real tedious real fast. Honestly, the more amazing and fun thing about fallout is that there's a path through the game where you kill no one. Considering how much violence is usually in video games, the pacifist path is often way more challenging and rewarding, especially in games like Dishonored, or Deus Ex.
posted by mrgoat at 1:38 PM on December 12, 2022
I know fallout 1 does, but there's a particular trick to get the overseer at the end. The only reason I didn't give it a try is because, as you say, it gets real tedious real fast. Honestly, the more amazing and fun thing about fallout is that there's a path through the game where you kill no one. Considering how much violence is usually in video games, the pacifist path is often way more challenging and rewarding, especially in games like Dishonored, or Deus Ex.
posted by mrgoat at 1:38 PM on December 12, 2022
Fallout New Vegas actually allows for an omicidal run and has made it so that the game will not break. The one exception is Yes man who possesses another securitron if you kill him.
Also children can't be harmed.
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 2:26 PM on December 12, 2022 [1 favorite]
Also children can't be harmed.
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 2:26 PM on December 12, 2022 [1 favorite]
the normal gameplay of DE:HR involves maybe accidentally harming a civilian or violating some boundary, getting cops mad at you, and doing your best to get away and let the cop attention meter run down.
As always, ProZD has it covered:
Trying to talk to a video game shopkeeper and accidentally stealing an item in front of them
I have to admit, I got a thrill the first time I was powerful enough to kill a shopkeeper in Nethack. NPCs should probably all be so OP.
posted by praemunire at 2:51 PM on December 12, 2022 [1 favorite]
As always, ProZD has it covered:
Trying to talk to a video game shopkeeper and accidentally stealing an item in front of them
I have to admit, I got a thrill the first time I was powerful enough to kill a shopkeeper in Nethack. NPCs should probably all be so OP.
posted by praemunire at 2:51 PM on December 12, 2022 [1 favorite]
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posted by xedrik at 7:44 AM on December 11, 2022