A Damaging Charge
January 4, 2023 8:54 AM Subscribe
Electric Vehicles are Bringing out the Worst in Us. "This shift toward ever-larger trucks and SUVs has endangered everyone not inside of one, especially those unprotected by tons of metal. A recent study linked the growing popularity of SUVs in the United States to the surging number of pedestrian deaths, which reached a 40-year high in 2021. "
"A particular problem is that the height of these vehicles expands their blind spots. In a segment this summer, a Washington, D.C., television news channel sat nine children in a line in front of an SUV; the driver could see none of them, because nothing within 16 feet of the front of the vehicle was visible to her."
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"As large as gas-guzzling SUVs and trucks are, their electrified versions are even heftier due to the addition of huge batteries. The forthcoming electric Chevrolet Silverado EV, for example, will weigh about 8,000 pounds, 3,000 more than the current gas-powered version. And there will be a lot of these behemoths: A recent study from the U.S. Department of Energy shows that carmakers are rapidly shifting their EV lineups away from sedans and toward SUVs and trucks, just as they did earlier with gas-powered cars.
The danger rises further after accounting for EVs’ unprecedented power. “This sucker is quick!” President Joe Biden exclaimed after taking a Ford F-150 Lightning for a spin last year. He was right: The truck can accelerate from zero to 60 miles an hour in under four seconds, about a second faster than an F-150 running on gasoline."
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"Worse yet, enormous EVs are compounding the global shortage of essential battery minerals such as cobalt, lithium, and nickel. That Hummer EV’s battery weighs as much as a Honda Civic, consuming precious material that could otherwise be used to build several electric-sedan batteries—or a few hundred e-bike batteries. One recent study found that electrifying SUVs could actually increase emissions by restricting the batteries available for smaller electric cars."
"A particular problem is that the height of these vehicles expands their blind spots. In a segment this summer, a Washington, D.C., television news channel sat nine children in a line in front of an SUV; the driver could see none of them, because nothing within 16 feet of the front of the vehicle was visible to her."
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"As large as gas-guzzling SUVs and trucks are, their electrified versions are even heftier due to the addition of huge batteries. The forthcoming electric Chevrolet Silverado EV, for example, will weigh about 8,000 pounds, 3,000 more than the current gas-powered version. And there will be a lot of these behemoths: A recent study from the U.S. Department of Energy shows that carmakers are rapidly shifting their EV lineups away from sedans and toward SUVs and trucks, just as they did earlier with gas-powered cars.
The danger rises further after accounting for EVs’ unprecedented power. “This sucker is quick!” President Joe Biden exclaimed after taking a Ford F-150 Lightning for a spin last year. He was right: The truck can accelerate from zero to 60 miles an hour in under four seconds, about a second faster than an F-150 running on gasoline."
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"Worse yet, enormous EVs are compounding the global shortage of essential battery minerals such as cobalt, lithium, and nickel. That Hummer EV’s battery weighs as much as a Honda Civic, consuming precious material that could otherwise be used to build several electric-sedan batteries—or a few hundred e-bike batteries. One recent study found that electrifying SUVs could actually increase emissions by restricting the batteries available for smaller electric cars."
as with autonomous driving software, new cars almost certainly will not solve the problem of cars.
posted by entropone at 8:59 AM on January 4, 2023 [85 favorites]
posted by entropone at 8:59 AM on January 4, 2023 [85 favorites]
We went shopping to replace our 20–year-old VW Golf, and the choice in small vehicles is pretty grim now. We ended up ordering a VW GTI because they don’t sell regular Golfs in NA anymore, and even VW was pushing us to order one of their stupid SUVs instead. I don’t want to drive a giant vehicle, I live in a city and they are a headache to get around in and park downtown.
posted by fimbulvetr at 9:04 AM on January 4, 2023 [28 favorites]
posted by fimbulvetr at 9:04 AM on January 4, 2023 [28 favorites]
What’s next for batteries - fingers crossed some of these pan out.
posted by Artw at 9:04 AM on January 4, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by Artw at 9:04 AM on January 4, 2023 [2 favorites]
This has nothing to do with EVs. American cars have been getting bigger for decades. The framing of the article is bullshit, with cherry picked studies and "EVs can't save the planet" nonsense as if anyone thinking seriously about climate mitigation is thinking only about EVs...
posted by gwint at 9:08 AM on January 4, 2023 [143 favorites]
posted by gwint at 9:08 AM on January 4, 2023 [143 favorites]
FTFY
posted by Dr. Twist at 9:14 AM on January 4, 2023 [121 favorites]
It unfortunately has a lot to do with TVs, because they make the vehicles heavier and torquier.
The answer is going to have to be what should have been done 100 years ago: speed governors.
posted by ocschwar at 9:14 AM on January 4, 2023 [13 favorites]
The answer is going to have to be what should have been done 100 years ago: speed governors.
posted by ocschwar at 9:14 AM on January 4, 2023 [13 favorites]
This is another reason that the real EV revolution is in bicycles and scooters. Even in the car-centric United States, e-bikes are outselling electric cars and trucks. Worldwide, it’s not even close.
posted by mbrubeck at 9:15 AM on January 4, 2023 [17 favorites]
posted by mbrubeck at 9:15 AM on January 4, 2023 [17 favorites]
EVs are really a more elaborate form of greenwashing.
Right now, all of the expensive models are just another form of conspicuous consumption that come with a helping of "and I'm saving the planet!" smugness.
A Rivan? Porsche Taycan? Model S? Audis, BMWs, Mercedes, Genesis, etc.
posted by Ickster at 9:21 AM on January 4, 2023 [16 favorites]
Right now, all of the expensive models are just another form of conspicuous consumption that come with a helping of "and I'm saving the planet!" smugness.
A Rivan? Porsche Taycan? Model S? Audis, BMWs, Mercedes, Genesis, etc.
posted by Ickster at 9:21 AM on January 4, 2023 [16 favorites]
And to emphasize what entropone said, new cars will not solve the problem of cars.
posted by Ickster at 9:22 AM on January 4, 2023 [8 favorites]
posted by Ickster at 9:22 AM on January 4, 2023 [8 favorites]
The answer is going to have to be what should have been done 100 years ago: speed governors.
This, and I am rapidly becoming a right-on-red abolitionist.
posted by Etrigan at 9:23 AM on January 4, 2023 [46 favorites]
This, and I am rapidly becoming a right-on-red abolitionist.
posted by Etrigan at 9:23 AM on January 4, 2023 [46 favorites]
We ended up ordering a VW GTI because they don’t sell regular Golfs in NA anymore
I'm extremely annoyed that VW not only stopped selling wagons in the US but also don't have plans to sell their plugin hybrids in the US market. Sure I could buy an ID4 but it's much larger than I want — give me a PHEV/EV wagon or hatch built on the Golf or Passat platform. Instead I plan on driving my '18 Sportwagon into the ground...
posted by nathan_teske at 9:23 AM on January 4, 2023 [10 favorites]
I'm extremely annoyed that VW not only stopped selling wagons in the US but also don't have plans to sell their plugin hybrids in the US market. Sure I could buy an ID4 but it's much larger than I want — give me a PHEV/EV wagon or hatch built on the Golf or Passat platform. Instead I plan on driving my '18 Sportwagon into the ground...
posted by nathan_teske at 9:23 AM on January 4, 2023 [10 favorites]
mbrubeck -- that's exciting to hear! Getting a Grintech system installed on my old Surly touring bike changed my life in hilly Seattle. I can now commute full-time by bicycle and was able to sell my truck. And I'm more relaxed and happier.
I have pretty bad post-traumatic arthritis in my ankle so walking is tough for me, but biking is a dream. However, it is pretty annoying to bring the bike on buses and trains, so I'm considering searching for a small, cheap, lightweight scooter that (instead of being the go-100-miles-with-groceries-and-tow-a-5'-steel-trailer beast my Surly is) is just a dinky ankle-saving range extender for public transit-based trips -- something that I can tuck under my seat on the train that saves me from walking a mile.
posted by cnidaria at 9:25 AM on January 4, 2023 [5 favorites]
I have pretty bad post-traumatic arthritis in my ankle so walking is tough for me, but biking is a dream. However, it is pretty annoying to bring the bike on buses and trains, so I'm considering searching for a small, cheap, lightweight scooter that (instead of being the go-100-miles-with-groceries-and-tow-a-5'-steel-trailer beast my Surly is) is just a dinky ankle-saving range extender for public transit-based trips -- something that I can tuck under my seat on the train that saves me from walking a mile.
posted by cnidaria at 9:25 AM on January 4, 2023 [5 favorites]
Also, here's the EV of my dreams. If only my apartment had parking for this delightful little solar-powered tandem row-trike!
posted by cnidaria at 9:30 AM on January 4, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by cnidaria at 9:30 AM on January 4, 2023 [4 favorites]
We're like 20 years into the livable streets movement and this is where we are. I honestly despair at the United States ever changing. I live in one of the most walkable cities in the whole country and people drive massive vehicles around like they're hauling lumber up Mount Everest.
Fixing the streets has failed. The only way forward IMO is to make certain classes of vehicles illegal.
posted by rhymedirective at 9:36 AM on January 4, 2023 [33 favorites]
Fixing the streets has failed. The only way forward IMO is to make certain classes of vehicles illegal.
posted by rhymedirective at 9:36 AM on January 4, 2023 [33 favorites]
There’s a disingenuous movement to tax EVs separately because they don’t pay gas tax. While I’m against that, I’m all for making annual registration fees be based on manufacturer reported curb weight for all vehicles.
There also need to be updated pedestrian safety standards. There is zero reason an electric SUV even needs a hood much less a forward blind spot. It’s only done to make it not look like an electric vehicle. Give us compact vehicles with a cab over aesthetic like European trucks if you really need a big car.
posted by meinvt at 9:36 AM on January 4, 2023 [37 favorites]
There also need to be updated pedestrian safety standards. There is zero reason an electric SUV even needs a hood much less a forward blind spot. It’s only done to make it not look like an electric vehicle. Give us compact vehicles with a cab over aesthetic like European trucks if you really need a big car.
posted by meinvt at 9:36 AM on January 4, 2023 [37 favorites]
I agree that the framing here is certainly odd. But the bigger point is that EV production is, for better or worse, aimed at what American consumers will buy. And for decades now, carmakers have pushed heavy, unsafe obstructive SUVs down our throats. For "safety".
Until Tesla, really, most electric use in the car market was also mis-aimed at parallel-hybrid cars, where the electric was only used as an oomph assist (as if we needed it at. all.). This was also a giant missed opportunity and waste. I test drove an Accord a while back that got something like 35 mpg in the gas version, and 35 mpg with the hybrid version. Whyyyyyyyy?
We drive a VW-product PHEV hatchback/wagon that was just a compliance-car model at the time (2016). I wish its batter were bigger/better, but otherwise .... there is nothing at all I'd replace it with these days, and it has 120k miles on it.
posted by Dashy at 9:43 AM on January 4, 2023 [6 favorites]
Until Tesla, really, most electric use in the car market was also mis-aimed at parallel-hybrid cars, where the electric was only used as an oomph assist (as if we needed it at. all.). This was also a giant missed opportunity and waste. I test drove an Accord a while back that got something like 35 mpg in the gas version, and 35 mpg with the hybrid version. Whyyyyyyyy?
We drive a VW-product PHEV hatchback/wagon that was just a compliance-car model at the time (2016). I wish its batter were bigger/better, but otherwise .... there is nothing at all I'd replace it with these days, and it has 120k miles on it.
posted by Dashy at 9:43 AM on January 4, 2023 [6 favorites]
And for decades now, carmakers have pushed heavy, unsafe obstructive SUVs down our throats. For "safety".
They didn't, though. Auto manufacturers pushed SUVs onto Americans to exploit a loophole in U.S. law to sell vehicles with a higher profit margin than smaller vehicles, and then it became a feedback loop of people buying them to feel safer from the other SUVs on the road.
Trust me--I drive a Honda Fit, and sometimes it's scary, especially on an interstate. But I have never replaced it with a larger vehicle, because I'm not a sociopath.
posted by rhymedirective at 9:46 AM on January 4, 2023 [68 favorites]
They didn't, though. Auto manufacturers pushed SUVs onto Americans to exploit a loophole in U.S. law to sell vehicles with a higher profit margin than smaller vehicles, and then it became a feedback loop of people buying them to feel safer from the other SUVs on the road.
Trust me--I drive a Honda Fit, and sometimes it's scary, especially on an interstate. But I have never replaced it with a larger vehicle, because I'm not a sociopath.
posted by rhymedirective at 9:46 AM on January 4, 2023 [68 favorites]
It's been kind of interesting watching the various EV-involved YouTube channels as these larger vehicles have arrived. Several I've seen have been doing longer drives in either the Rivian or the F150, and found that using twice the battery to go the same distance as a smaller vehicle just means spending twice as long charging (and 3x for the Hummer). Larger batteries do have a larger area under the charge tapering graph, but not enough to really counter this, especially when so many chargers are under 150kW. Even the Supercharger network is going to struggle if the Cybertruck ever ships in significant numbers; 250kW is fine for charging a Model 3 at 3C, but would still take an hour to charge that ridiculous thing.
This is another reason that the real EV revolution is in bicycles and scooters
EV powertrains can be so much more power dense than ICE ones that bicycles are going to fall prey to this urge towards more power and speed too. The Sur Ron modding community is getting pretty big these days.
posted by rhamphorhynchus at 9:50 AM on January 4, 2023 [4 favorites]
This is another reason that the real EV revolution is in bicycles and scooters
EV powertrains can be so much more power dense than ICE ones that bicycles are going to fall prey to this urge towards more power and speed too. The Sur Ron modding community is getting pretty big these days.
posted by rhamphorhynchus at 9:50 AM on January 4, 2023 [4 favorites]
All I want is a fucking Model 3 without giving money to Elon Musk. I am actively looking for a new car, and as someone who passionately hates hatchbacks, crossovers, SUVs, and pretty much anything in that vein my options for plugin EV are: Model 3 (NO), give up on getting laid entirely (Prius Prime), or bankruptcy and exile to Asshole Island (Porsche Taycan).
FFS I just want an electric Honda Civic Sport. Happy to pay 40, even 50K but there’s just nothing. Why is this so fucking hard?
posted by Ryvar at 9:53 AM on January 4, 2023 [13 favorites]
FFS I just want an electric Honda Civic Sport. Happy to pay 40, even 50K but there’s just nothing. Why is this so fucking hard?
posted by Ryvar at 9:53 AM on January 4, 2023 [13 favorites]
EVs are really a more elaborate form of greenwashing... new cars will not solve the problem of cars
Agreed 100% with the second sentiment, hard disagree on the first.
We need more and better funded public transportation.
We need (and are getting) a big push towards micromobility. That means more bikes (in protected lanes), more ebikes, more cargobikes, etc. etc. (Imagine cities with a fraction of the idling delivery trucks!)
We need EVs to replace road transportation vehicles that can't be replaced with the above.
Battery tech is getting lighter, getting more energy dense, and starting to relying less on the rarest and costliest metals. Small EVs are everywhere in the world-- just harder to find in the US because America can't seem to quit their love for mammoth vehicles. With that said: The Chevy Bolt is about to be a screaming deal – at least until March.
posted by gwint at 9:53 AM on January 4, 2023 [6 favorites]
Agreed 100% with the second sentiment, hard disagree on the first.
We need more and better funded public transportation.
We need (and are getting) a big push towards micromobility. That means more bikes (in protected lanes), more ebikes, more cargobikes, etc. etc. (Imagine cities with a fraction of the idling delivery trucks!)
We need EVs to replace road transportation vehicles that can't be replaced with the above.
Battery tech is getting lighter, getting more energy dense, and starting to relying less on the rarest and costliest metals. Small EVs are everywhere in the world-- just harder to find in the US because America can't seem to quit their love for mammoth vehicles. With that said: The Chevy Bolt is about to be a screaming deal – at least until March.
posted by gwint at 9:53 AM on January 4, 2023 [6 favorites]
I was rear-ended in early 2020 by someone in a comically-oversized F-350 Stupor Duty. I was in front of him waiting for traffic to clear at a stop sign and he hit me. He said he couldn't see me from his position, which seems believable given that I was in a Honda Fit and the top of his hood (with its stupidly aggressive grille) was above the roofline of my car.
posted by drstrangelove at 9:56 AM on January 4, 2023 [13 favorites]
posted by drstrangelove at 9:56 AM on January 4, 2023 [13 favorites]
he top of his hood (with its stupidly aggressive grille) was above the roofline of my car
Hot take: those giant grilles are the car equivalent of open carrying at Wendy's.
posted by Pope Guilty at 10:02 AM on January 4, 2023 [65 favorites]
Hot take: those giant grilles are the car equivalent of open carrying at Wendy's.
posted by Pope Guilty at 10:02 AM on January 4, 2023 [65 favorites]
Electric vehicles are environmentally friendly, which is why I recommend having two or three to be even more earth conscious. For the same reason, I recommend getting the biggest EVs possible. If it's good for the environment, having more of that thing is even better.
The children should just grow up, then they'll be visible.
posted by UN at 10:03 AM on January 4, 2023 [16 favorites]
The children should just grow up, then they'll be visible.
posted by UN at 10:03 AM on January 4, 2023 [16 favorites]
As automakers design faster, bigger cars, they are squandering a chance to make EVs safer than their predecessors. Without a gasoline engine under its hood, the Ford F-150 Lightning could have been equipped with a sloping front end that would have reduced danger to others in a crash. Instead, Ford retained the high hood of its F-150, declaring the now vacant space beneath it a “frunk.”
I'm convinced that many decisions about taste are solidified by the age of puberty. Opinions on aesthetics form extremely early in life and for many remain unquestioned and unchanged until their passing. Hot Wheels and Tonka are extremely important to the future vehicles sales, as are the endless videos of big trucks and snowplows many little boys and girls will watch continuously, utterly fascinated.
Car companies have known this for generations now and play into it all the time. A good portion of the market will pay a year's income or more to get a truck when, rationally, a sedan or a minivan would be as good or better for the things they want to do with a vehicle. Electric or not makes no difference.
posted by bonehead at 10:06 AM on January 4, 2023 [5 favorites]
I'm convinced that many decisions about taste are solidified by the age of puberty. Opinions on aesthetics form extremely early in life and for many remain unquestioned and unchanged until their passing. Hot Wheels and Tonka are extremely important to the future vehicles sales, as are the endless videos of big trucks and snowplows many little boys and girls will watch continuously, utterly fascinated.
Car companies have known this for generations now and play into it all the time. A good portion of the market will pay a year's income or more to get a truck when, rationally, a sedan or a minivan would be as good or better for the things they want to do with a vehicle. Electric or not makes no difference.
posted by bonehead at 10:06 AM on January 4, 2023 [5 favorites]
The forthcoming electric Chevrolet Silverado EV, for example, will weigh about 8,000 pounds, 3,000 more than the current gas-powered version.
Holy shit, I had no idea. That's fucking huge.
Thing is, if everyone else on the road has a high-riding 8,000lb. behemoth, who wants to be out there in a sensible 1,500lb. compact that is barely visible over the grill of an SUV?
posted by grobstein at 10:06 AM on January 4, 2023 [8 favorites]
Holy shit, I had no idea. That's fucking huge.
Thing is, if everyone else on the road has a high-riding 8,000lb. behemoth, who wants to be out there in a sensible 1,500lb. compact that is barely visible over the grill of an SUV?
posted by grobstein at 10:06 AM on January 4, 2023 [8 favorites]
We ended up ordering a VW GTI because they don’t sell regular Golfs in NA anymore
I'm going to have to keep my 2009 Honda Fit running until I die because no one sells anything to replace it now. They sell a Hybrid Fit/Jazz in the rest of the world but not in the US of A.
posted by octothorpe at 10:07 AM on January 4, 2023 [7 favorites]
I'm going to have to keep my 2009 Honda Fit running until I die because no one sells anything to replace it now. They sell a Hybrid Fit/Jazz in the rest of the world but not in the US of A.
posted by octothorpe at 10:07 AM on January 4, 2023 [7 favorites]
Hot take: those giant grilles are the car equivalent of open carrying at Wendy's.
Auto makers are proudly saying that they’re building more “aggressive” vehicles, just like how gun makers openly call matte-black and camo guns and accessories “murdered out”.
posted by Etrigan at 10:12 AM on January 4, 2023 [23 favorites]
Auto makers are proudly saying that they’re building more “aggressive” vehicles, just like how gun makers openly call matte-black and camo guns and accessories “murdered out”.
posted by Etrigan at 10:12 AM on January 4, 2023 [23 favorites]
Nothing says "small dick energy" like a high-riding 8,000 lb behemoth.
(Well, maybe 33 gas-burning sports-cars do.)
posted by heatherlogan at 10:12 AM on January 4, 2023 [20 favorites]
(Well, maybe 33 gas-burning sports-cars do.)
posted by heatherlogan at 10:12 AM on January 4, 2023 [20 favorites]
In my area, some commercial businesses have taken to putting large rocks in various places in landscaping, close to where people are turning in. I suspect this is to encourage people to NOT drive on the tiny green strips that border giant parking lots. Those rocks are now catching all kinds of truck and SUV drivers. Multiple times per week, I see pictures of another knucklehead who has high centered their massive vehicle on these rocks, and suspect there are dozens / hundreds of similar vehicles every week who drive onto the rocks but don't get stuck enough to need a tow.
These are large rocks, 4' - 6' in diameter. Personally I'd like to see everyone who wants to drive something larger than a mid-sized sedan be required to drive a course with these rocks scattered throughout to prove that drivers can't see for shit out of their giant deathmobiles. Not that it would matter since it's all mid-to-high income white people who feel as though driving poorly is their FSM given right. It's gotten to where I've seen pickups literally parked half way into the lane of traffic behind them because they're unable to wedge their giant F650 diesel dually pickups into huge parking spots today.
The way to solve this would be to require parking lots / garages stripe the stalls like they do in Europe and then aggressively ticket those who can't park between the lines. I predict there'd be zero SUVs / Pickups driven within a year as half of these folks can't park between the truck sized lines today.
Edit: I agree heatherlogan. As the current memes go, there are a lot of cheaper ways to illustrate the small dick energy of middle class white males who think they need an enormous truck to ... I don't know. I can't say I understand why middle class white males think they need a behemoth.
posted by ensign_ricky at 10:13 AM on January 4, 2023 [16 favorites]
These are large rocks, 4' - 6' in diameter. Personally I'd like to see everyone who wants to drive something larger than a mid-sized sedan be required to drive a course with these rocks scattered throughout to prove that drivers can't see for shit out of their giant deathmobiles. Not that it would matter since it's all mid-to-high income white people who feel as though driving poorly is their FSM given right. It's gotten to where I've seen pickups literally parked half way into the lane of traffic behind them because they're unable to wedge their giant F650 diesel dually pickups into huge parking spots today.
The way to solve this would be to require parking lots / garages stripe the stalls like they do in Europe and then aggressively ticket those who can't park between the lines. I predict there'd be zero SUVs / Pickups driven within a year as half of these folks can't park between the truck sized lines today.
Edit: I agree heatherlogan. As the current memes go, there are a lot of cheaper ways to illustrate the small dick energy of middle class white males who think they need an enormous truck to ... I don't know. I can't say I understand why middle class white males think they need a behemoth.
posted by ensign_ricky at 10:13 AM on January 4, 2023 [16 favorites]
Not that we need more reasons to be pushed off at Elon Musk’s dumb crap but the Cybertruck is built to be as heavy as possible to avoid safety regulations and should probably count as a war crime given the amount of lithium needed to make it go.
posted by Artw at 10:13 AM on January 4, 2023 [11 favorites]
posted by Artw at 10:13 AM on January 4, 2023 [11 favorites]
Auto makers are proudly saying that they’re building more “aggressive” vehicles, just like how gun makers openly call matte-black and camo guns and accessories “murdered out”.
Is this about how cars have mean faces now?
posted by grobstein at 10:13 AM on January 4, 2023 [12 favorites]
Is this about how cars have mean faces now?
posted by grobstein at 10:13 AM on January 4, 2023 [12 favorites]
I think the battery issues are a passing problem. Fundamentally technical issues about chemistry, they're the kinds of problems the industrial complex is really good at finding solutions for. Indeed there are multiple ones in the pipelines now at various stages of development.
Not to say any of that is easy or won't go without bumps, but it's the sort of problem that has low barriers to research and so can have many ideas thrown at it. It's very likely that we'll have much better, lower cost batteries made out of common materials, with a robust recycling infrastructure within five years.
posted by bonehead at 10:14 AM on January 4, 2023
Not to say any of that is easy or won't go without bumps, but it's the sort of problem that has low barriers to research and so can have many ideas thrown at it. It's very likely that we'll have much better, lower cost batteries made out of common materials, with a robust recycling infrastructure within five years.
posted by bonehead at 10:14 AM on January 4, 2023
I would hope so - what we are seeing right now is just scaling applied to pretty old technology, and if we stick with that out of momentum there will be very big problems.
posted by Artw at 10:18 AM on January 4, 2023
posted by Artw at 10:18 AM on January 4, 2023
Little confused. Why aren't cars now equipped with radar or sensors or something that stop the car before it hits something. I would think this would be a nigh requirement by insurance companies at this point. Who needs to drive into an object? At any time? Just make the car simply Not Do This.
posted by seanmpuckett at 10:19 AM on January 4, 2023 [9 favorites]
posted by seanmpuckett at 10:19 AM on January 4, 2023 [9 favorites]
Artw: I respectfully disagree. There's been a lot of change in battery tech in the past decade, but most of it happens invisibly and without a lot of fanfare.
https://arstechnica.com/science/2021/05/eternally-five-years-away-no-batteries-are-improving-under-your-nose/
posted by bonehead at 10:22 AM on January 4, 2023 [5 favorites]
https://arstechnica.com/science/2021/05/eternally-five-years-away-no-batteries-are-improving-under-your-nose/
posted by bonehead at 10:22 AM on January 4, 2023 [5 favorites]
SUV's and trucks are taller, and the hoods have less downward slope than they used to, which makes it even harder to see in front. I'm guessing it's only a matter of time before they start offering front-facing bumper level cameras in the same way that they offer rear-facing backup cameras.
posted by rmd1023 at 10:23 AM on January 4, 2023 [6 favorites]
posted by rmd1023 at 10:23 AM on January 4, 2023 [6 favorites]
It's amazing how many disingenuous anti-EV takes there are out there.
Yes, I know EVs are not going to solve climate change, thanks. But they are irrefutably superior to ICE vehicles, and we need to transition to them ASAP. Do we also need to redesign our communities to favor pedestrians, bikes, and transit? Yes. But that's a massive task that will probably take most of the rest of this century to accomplish. We can ditch gasoline in the next decade -- and we must.
The problem of steroidally oversized personal transport is a unique glitch of U.S. culture, unfortunately worsened by a quirk of regulations. It's got essentially nothing to do with EVs as a technology.
posted by Artifice_Eternity at 10:24 AM on January 4, 2023 [36 favorites]
Yes, I know EVs are not going to solve climate change, thanks. But they are irrefutably superior to ICE vehicles, and we need to transition to them ASAP. Do we also need to redesign our communities to favor pedestrians, bikes, and transit? Yes. But that's a massive task that will probably take most of the rest of this century to accomplish. We can ditch gasoline in the next decade -- and we must.
The problem of steroidally oversized personal transport is a unique glitch of U.S. culture, unfortunately worsened by a quirk of regulations. It's got essentially nothing to do with EVs as a technology.
posted by Artifice_Eternity at 10:24 AM on January 4, 2023 [36 favorites]
seanmpuckett, they are, according to all the advertising I’ve been reading in my search for a new vehicle. But whether you turn it on, or pay attention to it, is a different issue :(
Another problem is that the headlights of all these giant and off-road-ready/lifted trucks and SUVs are too high (and no one knows tonsil them down properly nowadays, apparently), which has made driving at night in my normal sized car increasingly annoying and potentially dangerous for other drivers on the road.
posted by eviemath at 10:25 AM on January 4, 2023 [9 favorites]
Another problem is that the headlights of all these giant and off-road-ready/lifted trucks and SUVs are too high (and no one knows tonsil them down properly nowadays, apparently), which has made driving at night in my normal sized car increasingly annoying and potentially dangerous for other drivers on the road.
posted by eviemath at 10:25 AM on January 4, 2023 [9 favorites]
as with autonomous driving software, new cars almost certainly will not solve the problem of cars. Americans.
posted by chavenet at 10:25 AM on January 4, 2023 [13 favorites]
posted by chavenet at 10:25 AM on January 4, 2023 [13 favorites]
Unfortunately, us Canadians have lost most of our small cars because of that US regulation quirk as well as car manufacturers have moved to a “NA market”. We used to get models that weren’t marketed in the US.
posted by fimbulvetr at 10:27 AM on January 4, 2023 [10 favorites]
posted by fimbulvetr at 10:27 AM on January 4, 2023 [10 favorites]
Some manufacturers are really behind the curve too. Toyota made a company-level bet on hydrogen fuels a decade or so ago and is now a major source of anti-BEV propaganda. Subaru doesn't have a decent BEV option at all. Volvo is also just dipping their toes into the ionic conductor pools too.
Many of the best value brands for ICE cars are among some of the worst actors for BEVs.
posted by bonehead at 10:33 AM on January 4, 2023 [4 favorites]
Many of the best value brands for ICE cars are among some of the worst actors for BEVs.
posted by bonehead at 10:33 AM on January 4, 2023 [4 favorites]
This has nothing to do with EVs. American cars have been getting bigger for decades.
I remember the '70s, when we were all well aware that we had to save energy, and cars were getting really small and economical. Little Hondas and Toyotas, the Gremlin, this was the future and it made perfect sense. We laughed at the huge Cadillacs from the old-school American producers, what dinosaurs!
And it has been unwinding ever since, let's all just pretend that we don't need to care. Not just cars, everything connected to resources and the environment and human well-being. It is like we really are in the Idiocracy timeline.
posted by Meatbomb at 10:38 AM on January 4, 2023 [18 favorites]
I remember the '70s, when we were all well aware that we had to save energy, and cars were getting really small and economical. Little Hondas and Toyotas, the Gremlin, this was the future and it made perfect sense. We laughed at the huge Cadillacs from the old-school American producers, what dinosaurs!
And it has been unwinding ever since, let's all just pretend that we don't need to care. Not just cars, everything connected to resources and the environment and human well-being. It is like we really are in the Idiocracy timeline.
posted by Meatbomb at 10:38 AM on January 4, 2023 [18 favorites]
Meanwhile in China: $5700 mini panda themed pink EV with 150 km range or perhaps you'd prefer a $14000 two seater electric convertable with 280 km range
The US is a backwater whose industry subsists on regulatory capture.
posted by joeyh at 10:42 AM on January 4, 2023 [21 favorites]
The US is a backwater whose industry subsists on regulatory capture.
posted by joeyh at 10:42 AM on January 4, 2023 [21 favorites]
this is so emblematic of the worst of US culture.
an acquaintance was just killed in a pedestrian hit-n-run Jan 1 (not an SUV or truck afaik)
we need to value the lives of human bodies, children, pedestrians over our desires to drive a death tank :(
posted by supermedusa at 10:42 AM on January 4, 2023 [13 favorites]
an acquaintance was just killed in a pedestrian hit-n-run Jan 1 (not an SUV or truck afaik)
we need to value the lives of human bodies, children, pedestrians over our desires to drive a death tank :(
posted by supermedusa at 10:42 AM on January 4, 2023 [13 favorites]
As an example of changing battery technology: at least half of Teslas today are built with Lithium Iron Phosphate batteries, which have no cobalt or nickel.
posted by eye of newt at 10:43 AM on January 4, 2023 [6 favorites]
posted by eye of newt at 10:43 AM on January 4, 2023 [6 favorites]
Subaru did come out with an EV for 2023, but I was bummed to see it's Crosstrek height not Impreza height. (I bought an Impreza in 2019. As others have mentioned, it's nearly impossible to find an affordable/good value non-SUV these days - especially if you want a hatchback. The Impreza gets TERRIBLE city mileage, just depressingly awful, and that is the one disappointing thing about my car. Thankfully I don't drive a ton but I still feel awful about it.) I really hope I will have a non-pedestrian- and cyclist-killing sized hatchback EV option when this car dies in... 12-15 years. Meanwhile, I'm trying to ride my ebike more for the kinds of errands I would previously hop in the car for.
posted by misskaz at 10:48 AM on January 4, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by misskaz at 10:48 AM on January 4, 2023 [1 favorite]
There are a lot of environment-damaging aspects of cars and car-oriented design that have nothing to do with the kinds of engine. Tire particles are a major source of particulate pollution. Impermeable surfaces lead to heat islands and more stormwater flooding. The production of asphalt and concrete is not without environmental impacts, and larger, heavier cars means more frequent repair and replacement.
This is to say nothing about the very important safety and quality of life impacts because of the way Americans seem to have decided we want our streets and cities to be designed.
posted by misskaz at 10:54 AM on January 4, 2023 [10 favorites]
This is to say nothing about the very important safety and quality of life impacts because of the way Americans seem to have decided we want our streets and cities to be designed.
posted by misskaz at 10:54 AM on January 4, 2023 [10 favorites]
One more thing about battery technology: there is no shortage of lithium--it is just that there are a limited number of mines because the demand wasn't so high before. That is changing.
Also, unlike oil, lithium is not consumed--it isn't even degraded, over the lifetime of the battery. You can recycle the battery and recover all the lithium for another battery. That is already taking place at companies like Redwood Materials. In theory, once you have enough lithium for all the EV cars that need it, you are done--you don't have to mine any more lithium. You can shut the mines down.
posted by eye of newt at 10:55 AM on January 4, 2023 [12 favorites]
Also, unlike oil, lithium is not consumed--it isn't even degraded, over the lifetime of the battery. You can recycle the battery and recover all the lithium for another battery. That is already taking place at companies like Redwood Materials. In theory, once you have enough lithium for all the EV cars that need it, you are done--you don't have to mine any more lithium. You can shut the mines down.
posted by eye of newt at 10:55 AM on January 4, 2023 [12 favorites]
Our 2015 Nissan Leaf is a great option for city driving and commuting(70 mi range), the newer models have gotten even better. The weight and visibility problem of trucks and SUVs have nothing to do with electric vehicles. A truck/SUV for commuting is always going to be worse. Our neighbors have a plugin hybrid minivan that they love and rarely put gas into.
Battery tech does keep improving. We have an older hybrid car for roadtrips and if it can hang on just a few more years I don't think I'll ever need another ICE car. 350 miles range in a hatchback would be killer as most people don't want to drive much more than 6 hours in a day anyhow.
posted by being_quiet at 10:57 AM on January 4, 2023 [5 favorites]
Battery tech does keep improving. We have an older hybrid car for roadtrips and if it can hang on just a few more years I don't think I'll ever need another ICE car. 350 miles range in a hatchback would be killer as most people don't want to drive much more than 6 hours in a day anyhow.
posted by being_quiet at 10:57 AM on January 4, 2023 [5 favorites]
I will never understand why EVs right now aren't 25-50 mile range with gas backup power plants, like the Volt. Tiny, efficient, electric generator and a battery that gets one to and from work for a few days on a full charge.
Maximize the number of EVs (since, here in the states, I would be shocked if mileage weren't almost exclusively commuters) possible per ton of rare raw materials and alleviate range anxiety.
posted by Slackermagee at 10:57 AM on January 4, 2023
Maximize the number of EVs (since, here in the states, I would be shocked if mileage weren't almost exclusively commuters) possible per ton of rare raw materials and alleviate range anxiety.
posted by Slackermagee at 10:57 AM on January 4, 2023
I will never understand why EVs right now aren't 25-50 mile range with gas backup power plants, like the Volt. Tiny, efficient, electric generator and a battery that gets one to and from work for a few days on a full charge.
I have a Prius Prime PHEV (plug-in hybrid electric vehicle with 25 mile EV range and gasoline engine) and most of my driving time is to/from work using the electric motor.
But...
Most of my driving miles are using the gasoline engine on the three or more times a year when I drive my kids to/from college or drive to visit relatives.
I think full EV is the way to go for maximum positive impact on the environment and reducing oil consumption and will probably buy one when prices go down.
posted by eye of newt at 11:02 AM on January 4, 2023 [3 favorites]
I have a Prius Prime PHEV (plug-in hybrid electric vehicle with 25 mile EV range and gasoline engine) and most of my driving time is to/from work using the electric motor.
But...
Most of my driving miles are using the gasoline engine on the three or more times a year when I drive my kids to/from college or drive to visit relatives.
I think full EV is the way to go for maximum positive impact on the environment and reducing oil consumption and will probably buy one when prices go down.
posted by eye of newt at 11:02 AM on January 4, 2023 [3 favorites]
I will never understand why EVs right now aren't 25-50 mile range with gas backup power plants, like the Volt. Tiny, efficient, electric generator and a battery that gets one to and from work for a few days on a full charge.
Because you still have to maintain the entire ICE side of the car, that ICE side of the car also reduces the range of the EV side because city driving is far more affected by f=ma, and the much smaller battery goes through cycles a lot faster than a 100kWh pack doing short trips. I assume GM and Honda ditched the Volt and the Clarity respectively because they literally chewed through the cycle count of the batteries and would have been a nightmare to warranty.
posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock at 11:05 AM on January 4, 2023 [4 favorites]
Because you still have to maintain the entire ICE side of the car, that ICE side of the car also reduces the range of the EV side because city driving is far more affected by f=ma, and the much smaller battery goes through cycles a lot faster than a 100kWh pack doing short trips. I assume GM and Honda ditched the Volt and the Clarity respectively because they literally chewed through the cycle count of the batteries and would have been a nightmare to warranty.
posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock at 11:05 AM on January 4, 2023 [4 favorites]
A New Yorker article ~20 years ago (possibly "Wrong Turn" by Malcolm Gladwell) said that small vehicles are generally safer than large ones due to being more agile and able to avoid collisions. Exception: the Dodge Neon, which was unsafe at any speed.
posted by neuron at 11:05 AM on January 4, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by neuron at 11:05 AM on January 4, 2023 [5 favorites]
Yeah I have a hybrid and on long highway drives I burn through nearly as much gas as an ICE. But in town I can go two weeks between fill-ups. My battery loves stop and start driving. Which is most of what I do.
My next car will be full electric, and for long trips I'll just need to plan for charging stations. But I see a lot more of those than I used to. It won't be an SUV if I can help it. I would love an 80s-style small pickup but no one makes those anymore :(
posted by emjaybee at 11:08 AM on January 4, 2023 [3 favorites]
My next car will be full electric, and for long trips I'll just need to plan for charging stations. But I see a lot more of those than I used to. It won't be an SUV if I can help it. I would love an 80s-style small pickup but no one makes those anymore :(
posted by emjaybee at 11:08 AM on January 4, 2023 [3 favorites]
It's much simpler and cheaper to build a fully electric vehicle than a hybrid. Now that the major automakers are investing in EV assembly lines, I think they're increasingly looking forward to the time when they can completely ditch ICEs, and all the associated mess of mechanical transmissions, oil pumps and filters, fuel tanks and lines, etc. This will also be better for everyone else, of course! (Except auto mechanics, who will have a lot less work.)
posted by Artifice_Eternity at 11:12 AM on January 4, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by Artifice_Eternity at 11:12 AM on January 4, 2023 [1 favorite]
As an example of changing battery technology: at least half of Teslas today are built with Lithium Iron Phosphate batteries, which have no cobalt or nickel.
Instead it uses phosphates which are critical for agriculture and have been completely mined out in places like Nauru.
Finding new ways to power our cars isn't the solution to the problem which is the car itself. At best it's a stopgap.
posted by drstrangelove at 11:20 AM on January 4, 2023 [4 favorites]
Instead it uses phosphates which are critical for agriculture and have been completely mined out in places like Nauru.
Finding new ways to power our cars isn't the solution to the problem which is the car itself. At best it's a stopgap.
posted by drstrangelove at 11:20 AM on January 4, 2023 [4 favorites]
"Trust me--I drive a Honda Fit, and sometimes it's scary, especially on an interstate. But I have never replaced it with a larger vehicle, because I'm not a sociopath."
My Fit died last summer (God rest her soul), and I had to replace her with a Nissan Kicks, a baby SUV. Not at all what I wanted, and I'm not thrilled with it, but it was the smallest car I could find (and was available because of supply chain issues) that had the same capacity as my Fit.
I bought an SUV because I had little choice. The demand for small cars are there -- but the cars aren't.
posted by Capt. Renault at 11:22 AM on January 4, 2023 [7 favorites]
My Fit died last summer (God rest her soul), and I had to replace her with a Nissan Kicks, a baby SUV. Not at all what I wanted, and I'm not thrilled with it, but it was the smallest car I could find (and was available because of supply chain issues) that had the same capacity as my Fit.
I bought an SUV because I had little choice. The demand for small cars are there -- but the cars aren't.
posted by Capt. Renault at 11:22 AM on January 4, 2023 [7 favorites]
I think it is unfair to group F150s with SUVs. The former are actually work trucks that are used on job sites - and very cool, can be used to power the job site rather than diesel generators. It's a big innovation that is really exciting for those who work/live in/around those locations/jobs. The latter is for joy riding and I agree are a waste of resources.
posted by Toddles at 11:28 AM on January 4, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by Toddles at 11:28 AM on January 4, 2023 [2 favorites]
the problem which is the car itself
Yes, but the Good solution (getting rid of cars) is not on the table in most of the world, like it or not.
Instead, your choice is between Bad (EVs), and Really Terrible (ICEs).
Make your pick.
...feel free to agitate for the Good solution all you want (and indeed, I rather strongly encourage it!), but let's not pretend that's actually a realistic choice in the near- to mid-term. We can't even agree it's desirable to eliminate long-distance air travel on this very site, never mind out there in the "real world" so something as major as removing cars is up there with, I dunno, cold fusion or something.
posted by aramaic at 11:30 AM on January 4, 2023 [6 favorites]
Yes, but the Good solution (getting rid of cars) is not on the table in most of the world, like it or not.
Instead, your choice is between Bad (EVs), and Really Terrible (ICEs).
Make your pick.
...feel free to agitate for the Good solution all you want (and indeed, I rather strongly encourage it!), but let's not pretend that's actually a realistic choice in the near- to mid-term. We can't even agree it's desirable to eliminate long-distance air travel on this very site, never mind out there in the "real world" so something as major as removing cars is up there with, I dunno, cold fusion or something.
posted by aramaic at 11:30 AM on January 4, 2023 [6 favorites]
OFFS - can we please do better than this? The article title is so transparently stupid, weaponized clickbait + it's the last kind of thing I want to see on MeFi, which ought to be a refuge from that.
posted by ryanshepard at 11:34 AM on January 4, 2023 [21 favorites]
posted by ryanshepard at 11:34 AM on January 4, 2023 [21 favorites]
Prius Prime PHEV (plug-in hybrid electric vehicle with 25 mile EV range and gasoline engine)
Worth noting here that the 2023 Prius Prime, which has a very slick redesign this year and I believe a greater pure EV range (35mi / 55km?) won’t be on dealer lots for another 3-4 months - been a couple Toyota releases talking like it’s here, but I called up the local dealerships and they’ve got nothing arriving until April.
The plain truth is that come April I’ll have to decide between the Ioniq 6’s godawful rear and the Prius Prime. I’d consider breaking the bank on an i4 EV but I’m fiercely allergic to all BMW dash layouts. …and between this and my prior comment I think that’s every EV sedan/coupe under $60K in the US. Bleak.
posted by Ryvar at 11:35 AM on January 4, 2023 [1 favorite]
Worth noting here that the 2023 Prius Prime, which has a very slick redesign this year and I believe a greater pure EV range (35mi / 55km?) won’t be on dealer lots for another 3-4 months - been a couple Toyota releases talking like it’s here, but I called up the local dealerships and they’ve got nothing arriving until April.
The plain truth is that come April I’ll have to decide between the Ioniq 6’s godawful rear and the Prius Prime. I’d consider breaking the bank on an i4 EV but I’m fiercely allergic to all BMW dash layouts. …and between this and my prior comment I think that’s every EV sedan/coupe under $60K in the US. Bleak.
posted by Ryvar at 11:35 AM on January 4, 2023 [1 favorite]
The answer is going to have to be what should have been done 100 years ago: speed governors.
That sounds very War On the Car.
This, and I am rapidly becoming a right-on-red abolitionist.
Turning right in red is not inherently problematic; it is the "turn right while looking left" approach beloved of so many drivers that causes the issues. It's been a long time since my driving lessons, so I suppose, "Do you think you should have a look at where your multi-ton vehicle is going to be accelerating to in one second?" is not a question they ask new drivers to keep in mind any more.
In my area, some commercial businesses have taken to putting large rocks in various places in landscaping, close to where people are turning in. I suspect this is to encourage people to NOT drive on the tiny green strips that border giant parking lots. Those rocks are now catching all kinds of truck and SUV drivers.
My uncle is a retired RCMP officer. He was once on a First Nations reserve to do a wellness check on a senior and managed to get his cruiser wedged in between two parts of the terrain when he overestimated the vehicle's ability to make a three-point turn in a (surprisingly) narrow gap.
As he glumly surveyed the situation, an elderly native called out from the porch of a nearby house, "That's a real good stuck ya got there, mountie cop. And it's your own blame."
posted by ricochet biscuit at 11:42 AM on January 4, 2023 [10 favorites]
That sounds very War On the Car.
This, and I am rapidly becoming a right-on-red abolitionist.
Turning right in red is not inherently problematic; it is the "turn right while looking left" approach beloved of so many drivers that causes the issues. It's been a long time since my driving lessons, so I suppose, "Do you think you should have a look at where your multi-ton vehicle is going to be accelerating to in one second?" is not a question they ask new drivers to keep in mind any more.
In my area, some commercial businesses have taken to putting large rocks in various places in landscaping, close to where people are turning in. I suspect this is to encourage people to NOT drive on the tiny green strips that border giant parking lots. Those rocks are now catching all kinds of truck and SUV drivers.
My uncle is a retired RCMP officer. He was once on a First Nations reserve to do a wellness check on a senior and managed to get his cruiser wedged in between two parts of the terrain when he overestimated the vehicle's ability to make a three-point turn in a (surprisingly) narrow gap.
As he glumly surveyed the situation, an elderly native called out from the porch of a nearby house, "That's a real good stuck ya got there, mountie cop. And it's your own blame."
posted by ricochet biscuit at 11:42 AM on January 4, 2023 [10 favorites]
. …and between this and my prior comment I think that’s every EV sedan/coupe under $60K in the US. Bleak.There's also the Polestar 2, and the just-launching Ioniq 6.
posted by kickingtheground at 11:46 AM on January 4, 2023 [1 favorite]
My current car, a Subaru Forester, needs to hang on for a few more years. The current hoped for replacement will be the VW ID.Buzz but A) it has to actually come out, B) I'm going to wait a couple of years after that to make sure enough kinks are worked out, and C) I don't even know how much this will cost and there's only so much I'm willing to pay for a car. It doesn't have a big hood so the visibility should be great and I don't know or care about the acceleration, up to a point, I didn't get a Prius V when I bought my current car because it was really sluggish and I felt it would make it tougher to make left turns, but it isn't as if the Forester goes from 0-60 in a flash either.
Over the summer I ran into someone in a parking lot that was recharging their Ford F150 Lightning. I struck up a conversation with them because I was curious about the car and he was fairly generous with his time to chat about it and show me stuff like the frunk. He wasn't particularly sold on the car because of the range issue and he said that towing made it significantly worse. The way the used car market is he could probably sell the thing for a profit if he really didn't like it so it wasn't a big risk for him to try the truck out.
Ebikes have a huge potential to reorient how we get around. I enjoy with riding my bike to work but a lot of people will find it difficult to do so for either distance or fitness reasons. Plus not everyone wants to put their life in the hands of random drivers on a daily basis, I mean we all do to an extent but it is much more apparent when you're sharing the same road on a bicycle without a couple thousand kilograms of steel surrounding you. We need more physically separated bicycle lanes and safe places to store bicycles and you'd see these take off.
My fall back if I'm not riding to work is to take the bus and that actually takes more time than riding my bike does due to all the stops and is much less consistent in how long it takes. At the less expensive end an ebike here costs around $1,500 and it would pay for itself vs public transit in anywhere from 10 months, if you rode every day and never took transit, to 1.5-2 years if you were more selective when you rode and still took transit the rest of the time. Probably not great news for the transit agency though.
posted by any portmanteau in a storm at 11:47 AM on January 4, 2023 [2 favorites]
Over the summer I ran into someone in a parking lot that was recharging their Ford F150 Lightning. I struck up a conversation with them because I was curious about the car and he was fairly generous with his time to chat about it and show me stuff like the frunk. He wasn't particularly sold on the car because of the range issue and he said that towing made it significantly worse. The way the used car market is he could probably sell the thing for a profit if he really didn't like it so it wasn't a big risk for him to try the truck out.
Ebikes have a huge potential to reorient how we get around. I enjoy with riding my bike to work but a lot of people will find it difficult to do so for either distance or fitness reasons. Plus not everyone wants to put their life in the hands of random drivers on a daily basis, I mean we all do to an extent but it is much more apparent when you're sharing the same road on a bicycle without a couple thousand kilograms of steel surrounding you. We need more physically separated bicycle lanes and safe places to store bicycles and you'd see these take off.
My fall back if I'm not riding to work is to take the bus and that actually takes more time than riding my bike does due to all the stops and is much less consistent in how long it takes. At the less expensive end an ebike here costs around $1,500 and it would pay for itself vs public transit in anywhere from 10 months, if you rode every day and never took transit, to 1.5-2 years if you were more selective when you rode and still took transit the rest of the time. Probably not great news for the transit agency though.
posted by any portmanteau in a storm at 11:47 AM on January 4, 2023 [2 favorites]
Auto manufacturers pushed SUVs onto Americans to exploit a loophole in U.S. law to sell vehicles with a higher profit margin than smaller vehicles
ISTR the reason was that manufacturers got SUVs classified as "trucks" because the emission standards were less strict, which allowed them to be built cheaper (and thus a higher profit margin).
posted by Greg_Ace at 11:47 AM on January 4, 2023 [2 favorites]
ISTR the reason was that manufacturers got SUVs classified as "trucks" because the emission standards were less strict, which allowed them to be built cheaper (and thus a higher profit margin).
posted by Greg_Ace at 11:47 AM on January 4, 2023 [2 favorites]
Ryvar, the Kia and Hyundai EVs are pretty good.(e.g. Kia niro) not sure if they are available in the right price range where you are
posted by memebake at 11:49 AM on January 4, 2023
posted by memebake at 11:49 AM on January 4, 2023
The former are actually work trucks that are used on job sites
Mostly marketing. "Despite any TV ads you see with F-150s in a rural or country setting, the vast majority of these new trucks are in large and medium-sized cities."
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 11:50 AM on January 4, 2023 [26 favorites]
Mostly marketing. "Despite any TV ads you see with F-150s in a rural or country setting, the vast majority of these new trucks are in large and medium-sized cities."
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 11:50 AM on January 4, 2023 [26 favorites]
I think it is unfair to group F150s with SUVs. The former are actually work trucks that are used on job sites...
Toddles I can't tell if you're being serious, but (gently) you can't be serious. I do see pickup trucks that are used as pickup trucks, but they are in the minority alongside all of 4 door extended cab trucks used for single drivers to office jobs or dropping kids at school. I can only find old articles, but I'd bet money that less than 25% of trucks are used for work or towing more than a few times a year.
My family has an electric car and we use it for 99% of our driving. Our 17 year old Volvo sits in the driveway for months at a time, really needs to be donated. My family and lifestyle will make a larger electric SUV valuable when we need a new car and I'm glad they'll be available. I wish there was even a single viable electric minivan (next year their may be the VW, maybe). Like everyone else I'm bothered by the near total lack of small EVs for commuting other than the model 3. American's irrational preferences are to blame.
posted by pkingdesign at 11:55 AM on January 4, 2023 [10 favorites]
Toddles I can't tell if you're being serious, but (gently) you can't be serious. I do see pickup trucks that are used as pickup trucks, but they are in the minority alongside all of 4 door extended cab trucks used for single drivers to office jobs or dropping kids at school. I can only find old articles, but I'd bet money that less than 25% of trucks are used for work or towing more than a few times a year.
My family has an electric car and we use it for 99% of our driving. Our 17 year old Volvo sits in the driveway for months at a time, really needs to be donated. My family and lifestyle will make a larger electric SUV valuable when we need a new car and I'm glad they'll be available. I wish there was even a single viable electric minivan (next year their may be the VW, maybe). Like everyone else I'm bothered by the near total lack of small EVs for commuting other than the model 3. American's irrational preferences are to blame.
posted by pkingdesign at 11:55 AM on January 4, 2023 [10 favorites]
Lot of construction in towns and cities, They sucked his brains out! It’s how we make them.
Still true that the biggest most aggressive ones I see are clearly not work vehicles.
posted by clew at 11:59 AM on January 4, 2023 [2 favorites]
Still true that the biggest most aggressive ones I see are clearly not work vehicles.
posted by clew at 11:59 AM on January 4, 2023 [2 favorites]
The Canoo is bigger than I want, but looks very useful for the size, but I also can’t tell if they really exist.
posted by clew at 12:03 PM on January 4, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by clew at 12:03 PM on January 4, 2023 [5 favorites]
The answer is going to have to be what should have been done 100 years ago: speed governors.
The vast majority of people will never use the "ludicrous speed" mode or whatever the particular EV maker calls it. I can put my car into sport mode and go crazy, but I don't because I'm a normal human man who just wants to go to the store.
Little confused. Why aren't cars now equipped with radar or sensors or something that stop the car before it hits something. I would think this would be a nigh requirement by insurance companies at this point. Who needs to drive into an object? At any time? Just make the car simply Not Do This.
Some definitely do. My recent vintage Audi Q5 yells at me if it thinks I'm approaching something too quickly, and will absolutely stomp the brakes if I don't do it myself. Same with backing up - if I'm backing into cross-traffic, it will quickly and loudly stop me from going anywhere.
posted by schoolgirl report at 12:04 PM on January 4, 2023 [1 favorite]
The vast majority of people will never use the "ludicrous speed" mode or whatever the particular EV maker calls it. I can put my car into sport mode and go crazy, but I don't because I'm a normal human man who just wants to go to the store.
Little confused. Why aren't cars now equipped with radar or sensors or something that stop the car before it hits something. I would think this would be a nigh requirement by insurance companies at this point. Who needs to drive into an object? At any time? Just make the car simply Not Do This.
Some definitely do. My recent vintage Audi Q5 yells at me if it thinks I'm approaching something too quickly, and will absolutely stomp the brakes if I don't do it myself. Same with backing up - if I'm backing into cross-traffic, it will quickly and loudly stop me from going anywhere.
posted by schoolgirl report at 12:04 PM on January 4, 2023 [1 favorite]
Little confused. Why aren't cars now equipped with radar or sensors or something that stop the car before it hits something. I would think this would be a nigh requirement by insurance companies at this point. Who needs to drive into an object? At any time? Just make the car simply Not Do This.
posted by seanmpuckett at 1:19 PM on January 4 [4 favorites +] [!]
They are trying to do this but it's not a matter of Simply anything. I helped test a BMW i7 (price tag: 6 figures) a few weeks ago, and specifically for automatic braking it happily plowed right into the inflatable dummy car. It did a lot of other tasks well (lane keeping, following distance management, etc.) but for whatever reason lots of automatic braking systems Simply Don't Work (or at least, they'e hit-or-miss).
posted by axiom at 12:09 PM on January 4, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by seanmpuckett at 1:19 PM on January 4 [4 favorites +] [!]
They are trying to do this but it's not a matter of Simply anything. I helped test a BMW i7 (price tag: 6 figures) a few weeks ago, and specifically for automatic braking it happily plowed right into the inflatable dummy car. It did a lot of other tasks well (lane keeping, following distance management, etc.) but for whatever reason lots of automatic braking systems Simply Don't Work (or at least, they'e hit-or-miss).
posted by axiom at 12:09 PM on January 4, 2023 [3 favorites]
Tesla recently just removed the radar sensors from some of its cars, and now rely on cameras that don't detect children as obstacles.
posted by meowzilla at 12:10 PM on January 4, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by meowzilla at 12:10 PM on January 4, 2023 [5 favorites]
The continued existence of Tesla as a company is proof that federal regulators are asleep at the wheel, just like some Tesla owners!
posted by rhymedirective at 12:18 PM on January 4, 2023 [7 favorites]
posted by rhymedirective at 12:18 PM on January 4, 2023 [7 favorites]
i am so fully with the group on the "where are all the small car options?" sentiment. i was lucky enough to pick up a 2018 fiat 500e a few years ago. i say lucky because i live in phoenix, AZ, and this was a compliance car sold only in california. i got it used which meant it cost about 1/2 of what it retailed for (an added bonus). with an 85-90 mile range, it is definitely a city car, and that's what i need - so again, i consider myself extremely lucky.
it's not a solid car, and i will be lucky to get 10 years out of it (just starting year four). when my EV search begins in five years or so, i sure hope that this trend of making things bigger and bigger has taken a turn.
i'm not optimistic.
posted by rude.boy at 12:23 PM on January 4, 2023 [2 favorites]
it's not a solid car, and i will be lucky to get 10 years out of it (just starting year four). when my EV search begins in five years or so, i sure hope that this trend of making things bigger and bigger has taken a turn.
i'm not optimistic.
posted by rude.boy at 12:23 PM on January 4, 2023 [2 favorites]
The former are actually work trucks that are used on job sites
The vast majority of the F-150s sold in the US are rarely-- if ever--- used for any actual truck-based duties. It's just another family hauler.
And, somehow, the Europeans manage to build houses and everything else out of Transit Connects. Meanwhile in the U.S. people who simply need to carry a toolbelt and an air gun to a job site claim they need some massive pickup for the purpose.
posted by drstrangelove at 12:23 PM on January 4, 2023 [28 favorites]
The vast majority of the F-150s sold in the US are rarely-- if ever--- used for any actual truck-based duties. It's just another family hauler.
And, somehow, the Europeans manage to build houses and everything else out of Transit Connects. Meanwhile in the U.S. people who simply need to carry a toolbelt and an air gun to a job site claim they need some massive pickup for the purpose.
posted by drstrangelove at 12:23 PM on January 4, 2023 [28 favorites]
I drive a 2002 Toyota Celica with about 230,000 miles on it currently. It cost me $6,000 ten years ago, and gets about 27 mpg city, 35 highway. It weighs 2900 lbs. I love it and plan to drive it to at least 400,000 miles.
I don’t know where the return is exactly for an EV va the environmental cost of building it in the first place, but I’d rather they not gig up a ton of lithium for my sake as long as I have a perfectly good vehicle.
I am hyper-aware of the behemoths on the road though, and drive extremely defensively. They’re a serious danger.
Ultimately, when it dies, I would like something like a Crosstrek hybrid or its equivalent when the time comes. This is Texas and we drive vast distances here to get anywhere and the current crop of EV’s won’t really do the trick. I’m keeping my eye on battery technology in case that changes in the interim.
posted by Devils Rancher at 12:28 PM on January 4, 2023 [2 favorites]
I don’t know where the return is exactly for an EV va the environmental cost of building it in the first place, but I’d rather they not gig up a ton of lithium for my sake as long as I have a perfectly good vehicle.
I am hyper-aware of the behemoths on the road though, and drive extremely defensively. They’re a serious danger.
Ultimately, when it dies, I would like something like a Crosstrek hybrid or its equivalent when the time comes. This is Texas and we drive vast distances here to get anywhere and the current crop of EV’s won’t really do the trick. I’m keeping my eye on battery technology in case that changes in the interim.
posted by Devils Rancher at 12:28 PM on January 4, 2023 [2 favorites]
Instead it uses phosphates which are critical for agriculture and have been completely mined out in places like Nauru.
Eh, the quantity of phosphates used in agriculture dwarfs the quantity needed for batteries. EVs are not going to endanger our ability to make fertilizer.
Also, mineral scarcity is relative. There are many minerals (like lithium) that are geologically abundant, but not historically that feasible to extract because of relatively small demand. That means they become *more* feasible to extract as demand ramps up.
There are various arguments to be made against EVs and/or cars generally, but I don't think the prospect of mineral scarcity is a strong one.
posted by Artifice_Eternity at 12:34 PM on January 4, 2023 [5 favorites]
Eh, the quantity of phosphates used in agriculture dwarfs the quantity needed for batteries. EVs are not going to endanger our ability to make fertilizer.
Also, mineral scarcity is relative. There are many minerals (like lithium) that are geologically abundant, but not historically that feasible to extract because of relatively small demand. That means they become *more* feasible to extract as demand ramps up.
There are various arguments to be made against EVs and/or cars generally, but I don't think the prospect of mineral scarcity is a strong one.
posted by Artifice_Eternity at 12:34 PM on January 4, 2023 [5 favorites]
Every year more than 1.35 million people die due to auto accidents.
Cars kill more of us than wars. By a lot.
Every time you're belting yourself into a car, you're strapping on a suit of armor. You're going out into a gladiatorial arena where the object of the game is not to get hit, and the stakes are permanent injury or death.
Beyond the astonishing toll in injury and mortality, I think cars are damaging us psychologically, morally even. We weren't built to go into combat every day. No wonder people are buying huge cars which they think will protect them; they're terrified, and they're armoring up.
posted by MrVisible at 12:40 PM on January 4, 2023 [21 favorites]
Crash injuries are estimated to be the eighth leading cause of death globally for all age groups and the leading cause of death for children and young people 5–29 years of age.The worst year for deaths in combat was 1950; almost 600,000 people died. In 2020 there were about 50,000 combat deaths.
Cars kill more of us than wars. By a lot.
Every time you're belting yourself into a car, you're strapping on a suit of armor. You're going out into a gladiatorial arena where the object of the game is not to get hit, and the stakes are permanent injury or death.
Beyond the astonishing toll in injury and mortality, I think cars are damaging us psychologically, morally even. We weren't built to go into combat every day. No wonder people are buying huge cars which they think will protect them; they're terrified, and they're armoring up.
posted by MrVisible at 12:40 PM on January 4, 2023 [21 favorites]
Mostly marketing. "Despite any TV ads you see with F-150s in a rural or country setting, the vast majority of these new trucks are in large and medium-sized cities."
I don't understand this argument. Of course more trucks are being sold in large and medium-sized cities - more people live in cities than in rural areas, and there is plenty of construction happening in cities where you'd need a truck...
I appreciate the responses - but I don't actually see any stats being shared other than "I observe this at my kid's elementary school drop off" being shared here. I mean, is anyone here actually following these trucks to work? Those folks may be dropping their kids off at school before going to work at a job site that requires a truck. Or may have other work on the weekends that requires a truck that you don't get to see, and well - they can't really afford to have multiple cars.
posted by Toddles at 12:40 PM on January 4, 2023
I don't understand this argument. Of course more trucks are being sold in large and medium-sized cities - more people live in cities than in rural areas, and there is plenty of construction happening in cities where you'd need a truck...
I appreciate the responses - but I don't actually see any stats being shared other than "I observe this at my kid's elementary school drop off" being shared here. I mean, is anyone here actually following these trucks to work? Those folks may be dropping their kids off at school before going to work at a job site that requires a truck. Or may have other work on the weekends that requires a truck that you don't get to see, and well - they can't really afford to have multiple cars.
posted by Toddles at 12:40 PM on January 4, 2023
There's also the Polestar 2, and the just-launching Ioniq 6.
Polestar 2 was the one I forgot, thank you! Right at the edge of my price range once the obvious driver assist options are selected, boring lines and I don’t relish the thought of rolling it off the lot and right into the paint shop for red, but I definitely should’ve included it. Ioniq 6 I’d already mentioned, and it’s probably my leading candidate.
Ryvar, the Kia and Hyundai EVs are pretty good. the Ioniq 6 I’d mentioned, prior models of the range were hatchback, as is every non-SUV EV from Kia, unfortunately. I have History(tm) with Hyundais - nearly died from bad ICE engine design on their part - but I suspect I’m gonna have to overlook that come spring. It’s that or swallow my pride and go with the Priu… fuck. I can’t even say it. Maybe I can just call it the Toyota Horseshoe Theory or the Toyota Get Over Yourself Dude.
posted by Ryvar at 12:47 PM on January 4, 2023
Polestar 2 was the one I forgot, thank you! Right at the edge of my price range once the obvious driver assist options are selected, boring lines and I don’t relish the thought of rolling it off the lot and right into the paint shop for red, but I definitely should’ve included it. Ioniq 6 I’d already mentioned, and it’s probably my leading candidate.
Ryvar, the Kia and Hyundai EVs are pretty good. the Ioniq 6 I’d mentioned, prior models of the range were hatchback, as is every non-SUV EV from Kia, unfortunately. I have History(tm) with Hyundais - nearly died from bad ICE engine design on their part - but I suspect I’m gonna have to overlook that come spring. It’s that or swallow my pride and go with the Priu… fuck. I can’t even say it. Maybe I can just call it the Toyota Horseshoe Theory or the Toyota Get Over Yourself Dude.
posted by Ryvar at 12:47 PM on January 4, 2023
Well, I don’t know all the small farmers and contractors in my area, but I know some of them, and they miss small pickups more than anybody. Cheaper to buy, cheaper to run, some of them had more bed space! Also if you maintain your own dirt road vehicle weight costs in tons of gravel per year.
posted by clew at 12:50 PM on January 4, 2023 [25 favorites]
posted by clew at 12:50 PM on January 4, 2023 [25 favorites]
The 2023 Prius really is a nice looking car. And reviews say it doesn’t drive like a Prius anymore.
posted by fimbulvetr at 12:50 PM on January 4, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by fimbulvetr at 12:50 PM on January 4, 2023 [3 favorites]
Lot of construction in towns and cities, They sucked his brains out! It’s how we make them.
I don't know. I'm not denying that a small number of trucks get used for genuine work purposes, but pretty much all the trucks I've seen in the city I live in are well-kept and -- most importantly -- their beds are pristine: mostly or entirely unmarred by dents or other evidence that they are used for the kinds of functional purposes shown in ads.
To my eye, the marketing is pretty clearly targeting American men and, particularly, evoking images of nostalgic masculinity carried over from a mythic 1950s version of the United States, where men were tough straight guys, worked on farms or in factories, and brought home the bacon to the wife and kids. To my eye, city living seems incongruent with that, mostly, but I admit I am not the demographic being targeted.
Buying a truck is often a way for men to purchase safe haven from changing norms in gender roles. Guys will "roll coal" as a consequence-free way to maintain social dominance from the safety of a cabin.
I don't have an opinion on whether EVs bring out the worst in people, but I think advertising often does, and truck makers in the United States are frequent offenders through the ads they buy, as much as those who buy them. Whatever we all drive, I do know the sooner we get everyone off of ICE technology, the better for humanity as a whole.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 12:52 PM on January 4, 2023 [14 favorites]
I don't know. I'm not denying that a small number of trucks get used for genuine work purposes, but pretty much all the trucks I've seen in the city I live in are well-kept and -- most importantly -- their beds are pristine: mostly or entirely unmarred by dents or other evidence that they are used for the kinds of functional purposes shown in ads.
To my eye, the marketing is pretty clearly targeting American men and, particularly, evoking images of nostalgic masculinity carried over from a mythic 1950s version of the United States, where men were tough straight guys, worked on farms or in factories, and brought home the bacon to the wife and kids. To my eye, city living seems incongruent with that, mostly, but I admit I am not the demographic being targeted.
Buying a truck is often a way for men to purchase safe haven from changing norms in gender roles. Guys will "roll coal" as a consequence-free way to maintain social dominance from the safety of a cabin.
I don't have an opinion on whether EVs bring out the worst in people, but I think advertising often does, and truck makers in the United States are frequent offenders through the ads they buy, as much as those who buy them. Whatever we all drive, I do know the sooner we get everyone off of ICE technology, the better for humanity as a whole.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 12:52 PM on January 4, 2023 [14 favorites]
Gotta tell you, Prius owners have sex. Why not? It’s second on the list of sustainable hedonisms.
(Sleep.)
posted by clew at 12:52 PM on January 4, 2023 [5 favorites]
(Sleep.)
posted by clew at 12:52 PM on January 4, 2023 [5 favorites]
Count me among those annoyed by the anti-ev framing of the FPP. Big vehicles are just a problem, got nothing to do with EVs. So tired of the 'but where do you think the electricity comes from' (renewables in my house) 'but the battery is made of stuff', 'but where will we plug them all in' articles. There are things to figure out still but it's really obvious that if we're still going to have cars in 20 years time they're going to be EVs. And so we need to be building them now to get the economies of scale figured out. I too hope for a future with fewer cars but those cars need to be EVs.
posted by memebake at 12:59 PM on January 4, 2023 [7 favorites]
posted by memebake at 12:59 PM on January 4, 2023 [7 favorites]
"Ioniq 6 I’d already mentioned, and it’s probably my leading candidate."
One of my relatives has an Ioniq 4, and loves it. I've ridden it and it had a real smooth ride.
posted by storybored at 1:00 PM on January 4, 2023 [1 favorite]
One of my relatives has an Ioniq 4, and loves it. I've ridden it and it had a real smooth ride.
posted by storybored at 1:00 PM on January 4, 2023 [1 favorite]
Eh, the quantity of phosphates used in agriculture dwarfs the quantity needed for batteries. EVs are not going to endanger our ability to make fertilizer.
There is already considerable concern about the depletion of phosphates, so adding yet another way to consume the remaining supply is not particularly wise.
posted by drstrangelove at 1:04 PM on January 4, 2023 [1 favorite]
There is already considerable concern about the depletion of phosphates, so adding yet another way to consume the remaining supply is not particularly wise.
posted by drstrangelove at 1:04 PM on January 4, 2023 [1 favorite]
Toddles, according to this (https://goshare.co/pickup-truck-facts/) only 15% of pickup owners use them for actual work.
I think a better question needs to be asked: what did we do before pickups were the de facto family hauler? Did nothing get built or done? All of the clever marketeering has convinced even reasonable people to think these monstrosities are being used for their intended purpose regularly, evidently.
posted by drstrangelove at 1:08 PM on January 4, 2023 [12 favorites]
I think a better question needs to be asked: what did we do before pickups were the de facto family hauler? Did nothing get built or done? All of the clever marketeering has convinced even reasonable people to think these monstrosities are being used for their intended purpose regularly, evidently.
posted by drstrangelove at 1:08 PM on January 4, 2023 [12 favorites]
Lithiums going to run out because every American wants to drive a fucking tank, isn’t it?
I'm surprised Ford hasnt come out with a tank tread option for the F-150, actually.
posted by pwnguin at 1:09 PM on January 4, 2023 [4 favorites]
I'm surprised Ford hasnt come out with a tank tread option for the F-150, actually.
posted by pwnguin at 1:09 PM on January 4, 2023 [4 favorites]
I don’t seem to have read the same article you did, memebake ; the one linked in the OP is explicit about how the current US market is making EVs that are straight up right now worse for emissions than existing ICE alternatives, and also displacing the alternatives that are less emissive and less dangerous.
"We need to stop burning fossil fuels " doesn’t excuse every use of batteries.
posted by clew at 1:13 PM on January 4, 2023 [5 favorites]
"We need to stop burning fossil fuels " doesn’t excuse every use of batteries.
posted by clew at 1:13 PM on January 4, 2023 [5 favorites]
I have a gas guzzling behemoth truck. Well, it's a 2009 F-150, so it's not as much of a behemoth as the newer ones. I bought it for $9K in 2017 so I could tow a camper across the country and I've never been able to afford to replace it since. All I ever wanted was a little old Toyota truck but I couldn't afford one and this is what I ended up with. It's horrible and wonderful at the same time: horrible for all the reasons brought up here in spades and wonderful because it's actually really comfortable for me, a tall woman, to drive; it's been crazy reliable and literally never broken down; it hauls stuff where I need it to go, which is super handy; I can pile the dogs into the cab and head to the beach without worrying about my "nice" car; I can pull my old tiny camper out and glamp in comfort and, last but not least, if there is ever a huge disaster and I'm near the truck there's a bed in the back so I can at least get some sleep. I have not yet run over a child or hit anything other than the damn stone retaining wall in my driveway.
Would I prefer an EV? Sure, but honestly I still really want a little old Nissan pickup. It would be hard to go back to a car from the truck. I went looking for a used Subaru wagon but I'm not in a place where I could make a car payment, so, here we are. I suspect a lot of the people you see in older trucks are in the same boat.
posted by mygothlaundry at 1:14 PM on January 4, 2023 [6 favorites]
Would I prefer an EV? Sure, but honestly I still really want a little old Nissan pickup. It would be hard to go back to a car from the truck. I went looking for a used Subaru wagon but I'm not in a place where I could make a car payment, so, here we are. I suspect a lot of the people you see in older trucks are in the same boat.
posted by mygothlaundry at 1:14 PM on January 4, 2023 [6 favorites]
I was just looking at the 2022 Toyota Rav4 Prime. It's a plug-in hybrid that's a pretty modest-sized crossover with an EV-mode-only range of about 40 miles on a battery charge.
The upcoming VW Buzz microbus is pretty sexy, too, I must say. Not likely to get one, but it evokes all kinds of nostalgia for an EV.
posted by darkstar at 1:25 PM on January 4, 2023
The upcoming VW Buzz microbus is pretty sexy, too, I must say. Not likely to get one, but it evokes all kinds of nostalgia for an EV.
posted by darkstar at 1:25 PM on January 4, 2023
Little confused. Why aren't cars now equipped with radar or sensors or something that stop the car before it hits something. I would think this would be a nigh requirement by insurance companies at this point.
The NHSA negotiated with auto manufacturers to make it a de-facto requirement starting last year. Automatic emergency braking systems will be standard equipment on 99% of new cars sold in the US going forward. Apparently this approach (negotiating with manufacturers) was able to speed up standardization of the technology by three years relative to a purely regulatory approach.
posted by mr_roboto at 1:28 PM on January 4, 2023 [2 favorites]
The NHSA negotiated with auto manufacturers to make it a de-facto requirement starting last year. Automatic emergency braking systems will be standard equipment on 99% of new cars sold in the US going forward. Apparently this approach (negotiating with manufacturers) was able to speed up standardization of the technology by three years relative to a purely regulatory approach.
posted by mr_roboto at 1:28 PM on January 4, 2023 [2 favorites]
I wish hatchbacks become popular again. My wife and I have a 4-door sedan, but with no kids, we rarely use the back seats. And sometimes we want to be able to haul larger things around. A hatchback kind of covers all that without being a truck. We're about ready to look at a new vehicle, and unfortunately we're considering a small SUV like the ones Subaru makes (there's a smaller model, not the Outback or Forester... can't think of the name right now). We live in the city of Chicago and do not want a large SUV.
posted by SoberHighland at 1:37 PM on January 4, 2023 [10 favorites]
posted by SoberHighland at 1:37 PM on January 4, 2023 [10 favorites]
I'm surprised Ford hasn't come out with a tank tread option for the F-150, actually.
You probably don't need these unless you work in Arctic oil exploration or at (checks notes) a ski resort, but the aftermarket has you covered.
posted by box at 1:38 PM on January 4, 2023 [4 favorites]
You probably don't need these unless you work in Arctic oil exploration or at (checks notes) a ski resort, but the aftermarket has you covered.
posted by box at 1:38 PM on January 4, 2023 [4 favorites]
*sigh*
Look, you can power an EV from renewable sources. All the 'but but they still generate loads of Co2 because america is crap at renewables' arguments ignore that.
Somehow we've ended up in a world where we spend huge amount of time and energy sucking dinosaur juice out of the ground, then putting it in big bottles on wheels are driving those big bottles all over the place and then transferring the dinosaur juice to big bottles underground, the underground bottles being regularly spaced throughout the whole world so that noone has to go too far to get to their local underground dinosaur juice bottles. And from the underground bottles people pump it back up and squirt it into smaller bottles in their vehicles where is sloshes around as they burn it a few drops at a time to drive a piston. Oh and whenever we use any of that dinosaur juice we are literally burning our own future. Its just fucking stupid. If we were able to build a completely impractical global underground dinosaur juice system, we can definitely make EV infrastructure work. Evs make much more sense. We need to crack on with it. Yes americans like big cars, becuase of stupid incentives which the article mentions in its 4th paragraph. The article could have stopped there.
There's no reason for EVs to be big or expensive. They're much simpler than ICE cars. Its just that there's a century of experience and infrastructure propping up the ICE side of the equation. We need to crack on and let the economies of scale get figured out. Thats where we're at at the moment. In another ten years EVs will be by far the cheapest and best option in every segment including busses, bikes and whatever.
posted by memebake at 1:39 PM on January 4, 2023 [7 favorites]
Look, you can power an EV from renewable sources. All the 'but but they still generate loads of Co2 because america is crap at renewables' arguments ignore that.
Somehow we've ended up in a world where we spend huge amount of time and energy sucking dinosaur juice out of the ground, then putting it in big bottles on wheels are driving those big bottles all over the place and then transferring the dinosaur juice to big bottles underground, the underground bottles being regularly spaced throughout the whole world so that noone has to go too far to get to their local underground dinosaur juice bottles. And from the underground bottles people pump it back up and squirt it into smaller bottles in their vehicles where is sloshes around as they burn it a few drops at a time to drive a piston. Oh and whenever we use any of that dinosaur juice we are literally burning our own future. Its just fucking stupid. If we were able to build a completely impractical global underground dinosaur juice system, we can definitely make EV infrastructure work. Evs make much more sense. We need to crack on with it. Yes americans like big cars, becuase of stupid incentives which the article mentions in its 4th paragraph. The article could have stopped there.
There's no reason for EVs to be big or expensive. They're much simpler than ICE cars. Its just that there's a century of experience and infrastructure propping up the ICE side of the equation. We need to crack on and let the economies of scale get figured out. Thats where we're at at the moment. In another ten years EVs will be by far the cheapest and best option in every segment including busses, bikes and whatever.
posted by memebake at 1:39 PM on January 4, 2023 [7 favorites]
for whatever reason lots of automatic braking systems Simply Don't Work (or at least, they'e hit-or-miss).
ISWYDT
posted by Greg_Ace at 1:40 PM on January 4, 2023 [4 favorites]
ISWYDT
posted by Greg_Ace at 1:40 PM on January 4, 2023 [4 favorites]
I've wondered where the tow-behind light trailer with a gas tank and a Honda generator was in the market? Seems like it'd be the no-brainer solution to the cross-country EV range problem. U-haul could make a killing with a handful of these in their inventory.
posted by cfraenkel at 1:43 PM on January 4, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by cfraenkel at 1:43 PM on January 4, 2023 [4 favorites]
And nthing on the curse of the behemoth pickups. On top of them being behemoths to begin with, seems like 90% of the jackasses buying them insist on lift kits, making them even more pedestrian killing machines than they started out.
posted by cfraenkel at 1:46 PM on January 4, 2023
posted by cfraenkel at 1:46 PM on January 4, 2023
I may have hit some pedestrians in my Rhino SUV, but I really have no way of knowing.
posted by chaz at 1:58 PM on January 4, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by chaz at 1:58 PM on January 4, 2023 [2 favorites]
I've wondered where the tow-behind light trailer with a gas tank and a Honda generator was in the market?
Sounds like a bomb strapped to the back of a car. They could definitely make safe ones but I'd think just planning your trip so you hit chargers on the way would make more sense.
posted by any portmanteau in a storm at 2:05 PM on January 4, 2023 [2 favorites]
Sounds like a bomb strapped to the back of a car. They could definitely make safe ones but I'd think just planning your trip so you hit chargers on the way would make more sense.
posted by any portmanteau in a storm at 2:05 PM on January 4, 2023 [2 favorites]
the current US market is making EVs that are straight up right now worse for emissions than existing ICE alternatives
The comparison the article uses to illustrate that point is between a Hummer EV - literally, the Hummer of EVs - and the Chevy Malibu, a... mid-size family sedan. That's pretty disingenuous. Nobody interested in a Hummer of any type is also considering a Malibu of any type and vice versa. They're radically different form factors.
It gets worse. The study used for this example in the article indicates that the Hummer EV and the Malibu ICE end up in roughly the same place in terms of emissions, with the original ICE Hummer having around 2.5x more emissions than either the Malibu or the Hummer EV. When you're comparing two vehicles in the same class, even if you're taking into account the full impact of manufacturing, EVs never end up being worse for emissions.
At the end of the day, EV technology is not the factor driving the move to larger and larger cars. Everyone knows that tiny, efficient EVs are possible, and in many ways are easier for the manufacturers to build. What's driving the large-SUV arms race, regardless of fuel type, is market demand for the form factor. Yes, manufacturers are sacrificing efficiency to make larger cars. That's regardless of whether or not they're EVs, and it's weird that the article tries to focus exclusively on them.
posted by I EAT TAPAS at 2:27 PM on January 4, 2023 [11 favorites]
The comparison the article uses to illustrate that point is between a Hummer EV - literally, the Hummer of EVs - and the Chevy Malibu, a... mid-size family sedan. That's pretty disingenuous. Nobody interested in a Hummer of any type is also considering a Malibu of any type and vice versa. They're radically different form factors.
It gets worse. The study used for this example in the article indicates that the Hummer EV and the Malibu ICE end up in roughly the same place in terms of emissions, with the original ICE Hummer having around 2.5x more emissions than either the Malibu or the Hummer EV. When you're comparing two vehicles in the same class, even if you're taking into account the full impact of manufacturing, EVs never end up being worse for emissions.
At the end of the day, EV technology is not the factor driving the move to larger and larger cars. Everyone knows that tiny, efficient EVs are possible, and in many ways are easier for the manufacturers to build. What's driving the large-SUV arms race, regardless of fuel type, is market demand for the form factor. Yes, manufacturers are sacrificing efficiency to make larger cars. That's regardless of whether or not they're EVs, and it's weird that the article tries to focus exclusively on them.
posted by I EAT TAPAS at 2:27 PM on January 4, 2023 [11 favorites]
SoberHighland, the Subaru "small SUV" you're thinking of is probably the Crosstrek, but Subaru also makes the Impreza as a hatchback. It's the same size body, the Crosstrek is higher up on a CUV/SUV chassis and the Impreza is lower to the ground on the sedan chassis. That's why I bought the Impreza.
The Mazda3 also comes in a hatchback but the body design has gotten sportier and more aerodynamic, shrinking the hatch opening to the point that for me it lost much of the utility. (My old car was a Mazda3 hatchback).
It's really sad how hard it is to find wagons and hatchbacks. All the utility of an SUV (for the most part, sure sometimes you might get stuck more in snowdrifts or whatever) without the pedestrian-deadly height and worse sightlines.
posted by misskaz at 2:41 PM on January 4, 2023 [6 favorites]
The Mazda3 also comes in a hatchback but the body design has gotten sportier and more aerodynamic, shrinking the hatch opening to the point that for me it lost much of the utility. (My old car was a Mazda3 hatchback).
It's really sad how hard it is to find wagons and hatchbacks. All the utility of an SUV (for the most part, sure sometimes you might get stuck more in snowdrifts or whatever) without the pedestrian-deadly height and worse sightlines.
posted by misskaz at 2:41 PM on January 4, 2023 [6 favorites]
"The forthcoming electric Chevrolet Silverado EV, for example, will weigh about 8,000 pounds, 3,000 more than the current gas-powered version."
I've read that road wear is proportional to axle weight raised to the fourth power, so the electric Silverado puts 6x the wear on streets and highways.
Generalized Fourth Power Law: https://www.insidescience.org/news/how-much-damage-do-heavy-trucks-do-our-roads
Plus it's 60% more murdery when you get run down by one.
Great.
How about a yearly registration tax based on vehicle weight (catches all large vehicles) and a fuel tax?
posted by etherist at 2:41 PM on January 4, 2023 [7 favorites]
I've read that road wear is proportional to axle weight raised to the fourth power, so the electric Silverado puts 6x the wear on streets and highways.
Generalized Fourth Power Law: https://www.insidescience.org/news/how-much-damage-do-heavy-trucks-do-our-roads
Plus it's 60% more murdery when you get run down by one.
Great.
How about a yearly registration tax based on vehicle weight (catches all large vehicles) and a fuel tax?
posted by etherist at 2:41 PM on January 4, 2023 [7 favorites]
There's also the Polestar 2, and the just-launching Ioniq 6.
The former a rebranded Volvo (so, Swedish), and the latter a Hyundai (S.Korean). Don't forget the Vinfast, something new from Vietnam, with a factory coming to North Carolina.
posted by Rash at 2:44 PM on January 4, 2023
The former a rebranded Volvo (so, Swedish), and the latter a Hyundai (S.Korean). Don't forget the Vinfast, something new from Vietnam, with a factory coming to North Carolina.
posted by Rash at 2:44 PM on January 4, 2023
If a truck actually serves a work function, it is most likely a Toyoto Tacoma or similar, not the Ford or Dodge caricatures you see driven by people who I assume must haul a lot of groceries or whatever.
posted by Dark Messiah at 2:44 PM on January 4, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by Dark Messiah at 2:44 PM on January 4, 2023 [2 favorites]
If a truck actually serves a work function
or it's an older Ford F-150 or similar, used sparingly as the work requires? so many statements about trucks flying around, and not to argue the merits of these statements as I see my share of full-sized pick-ups that are hardly more than embellishments to ego
but where I live, the older Ford F-150s if properly maintained do the trick and the pick-your-part yards are filled with everything you need to keep them on the road. there is no contest. sure, I love a Tacoma but the new ones are much bigger than the older models and self-repair is just not viable as you go newer.
people in N. America are on average bigger than they used to be, and the size of our vehicles in part reflects this. the whole situation is a mirror of what we're mostly about, I'm sure present company excluded
posted by elkevelvet at 3:04 PM on January 4, 2023 [6 favorites]
or it's an older Ford F-150 or similar, used sparingly as the work requires? so many statements about trucks flying around, and not to argue the merits of these statements as I see my share of full-sized pick-ups that are hardly more than embellishments to ego
but where I live, the older Ford F-150s if properly maintained do the trick and the pick-your-part yards are filled with everything you need to keep them on the road. there is no contest. sure, I love a Tacoma but the new ones are much bigger than the older models and self-repair is just not viable as you go newer.
people in N. America are on average bigger than they used to be, and the size of our vehicles in part reflects this. the whole situation is a mirror of what we're mostly about, I'm sure present company excluded
posted by elkevelvet at 3:04 PM on January 4, 2023 [6 favorites]
I think it is unfair to group F150s with SUVs. The former are actually work trucks that are used on job sites
I don't understand this argument. Of course more trucks are being sold in large and medium-sized cities - more people live in cities than in rural areas, and there is plenty of construction happening in cities where you'd need a truck...Those folks may be dropping their kids off at school before going to work at a job site that requires a truck.
I've posted this link before -- heck, I've made a comment on the overtaking of trucks before -- the red line (left axis) is truck sales and the blue line (left axis) is car sales, while the green line (right axis) is the percent of new vehicle sales that are cars.
I'm sure I'm not the only person here who remembers life a decade ago, when there was one truck sold for every car sold (as had been the trend since the late 1990s). Now, there are four trucks sold for every car sold. Did that many people become farmers? Did they become construction workers? Really? In the last decade?
But none of this fucking matters. If I'm killed by a driver, is it okay if my death was caused by a driver going to a job site? If some kid gets asthma because of the tailpipe emissions from the road near their house, is it okay if their asthma is work-related asthma? If your property is wiped out in a natural disaster caused by climate change, is it okay if the climate change was caused by a hard-working farmer?
The fundamental idea that some people have to drive big trucks for their jobs, (even though the same jobs get done with smaller vehicles elswehere), so we can excuse the costs they push onto the rest of society and subsidize them is what led to the two-vehicle-type emission standards that are reversing fleet fuel efficiency standards and killing people.
PS: Europe also has pedestrian safety standards for vehicles, so they are less likely to kill people they are driven into.
posted by Superilla at 3:05 PM on January 4, 2023 [28 favorites]
I don't understand this argument. Of course more trucks are being sold in large and medium-sized cities - more people live in cities than in rural areas, and there is plenty of construction happening in cities where you'd need a truck...Those folks may be dropping their kids off at school before going to work at a job site that requires a truck.
I've posted this link before -- heck, I've made a comment on the overtaking of trucks before -- the red line (left axis) is truck sales and the blue line (left axis) is car sales, while the green line (right axis) is the percent of new vehicle sales that are cars.
I'm sure I'm not the only person here who remembers life a decade ago, when there was one truck sold for every car sold (as had been the trend since the late 1990s). Now, there are four trucks sold for every car sold. Did that many people become farmers? Did they become construction workers? Really? In the last decade?
But none of this fucking matters. If I'm killed by a driver, is it okay if my death was caused by a driver going to a job site? If some kid gets asthma because of the tailpipe emissions from the road near their house, is it okay if their asthma is work-related asthma? If your property is wiped out in a natural disaster caused by climate change, is it okay if the climate change was caused by a hard-working farmer?
The fundamental idea that some people have to drive big trucks for their jobs, (even though the same jobs get done with smaller vehicles elswehere), so we can excuse the costs they push onto the rest of society and subsidize them is what led to the two-vehicle-type emission standards that are reversing fleet fuel efficiency standards and killing people.
PS: Europe also has pedestrian safety standards for vehicles, so they are less likely to kill people they are driven into.
posted by Superilla at 3:05 PM on January 4, 2023 [28 favorites]
The idea that pickup trucks are absolutely required for work is questionable. My dad has done more than his share of home renovations, lugging 2x4s and drywall around, and he used both a Chevy Astro van and a smaller Honda Element, often with items hanging out the tailgate. Pickup trucks handle poorly, get worse gas mileage, and your stuff gets soaked by rain and stolen.
posted by meowzilla at 3:14 PM on January 4, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by meowzilla at 3:14 PM on January 4, 2023 [2 favorites]
I’ve rented a Tesla the last few times I’ve traveled. The sports car level acceleration and handling is a horrible experience for someone who wants to just drive around.
posted by interogative mood at 3:17 PM on January 4, 2023
posted by interogative mood at 3:17 PM on January 4, 2023
I have never owned a car and I never want to. But I recognize I'm an edge case and have spent most of my life very poor, and I've probably hurt my options for a "normal" career or whatever, and I don't face the logistical issues of having a family.
Having a DIY ebike has definitely been a game changer for my life of cycling as I get older, but I also recognize that it has a lot limitations. But it's been amazing to know that I can do 20-25 miles with a 60-80+ pound load of groceries or cargo without even pedaling at all just using my quasi-legal throttle, and if I keep the speed down and pedal more that range nearly triples.
If we give them some space and support ebikes are going to change and transform urban, suburban and even rural transit for the better. They already are even without support and infrastructure. I'm firmly in the rural category, but I live right on a major bike trail in a place that supports cycling more than most in the US. Also, I can note that ebikes have, well, blown up in popularity out here, going from about 1 in 50 bikes or less to as much as 6-7 out of 10 bikes I see out on the trails and roads in about 3-4 years.
But a lot of those limitations aren't really about the bike, but the infrastructure. I know from my experience living and riding in urban places that 90-99% of my stress and fatigue with biking isn't the biking part at all, but having to mix it up with vehicular traffic on roads and stop and go traffic. City roads are horrible for biking with all the stop and go traffic, the road hazards and road conditions and so much more extra stress and friction, and bikes are most efficient when they can just naturally flow at bike speeds and not get stuck in stop and go vehicular traffic.
In my experience one mile of riding on the streets of of a major city is about the same stress and effort as 5-10 miles on a grade separated bike path with good flow. Where I am now is about a 15 mile round trip from home to town and shopping and if I did that in LA it would be so much more stressful and it would cover a major chunk of even a big metropolitan city.
Bikes are amazing for easy traffic flow because they don't really need traffic light controls. I've been on huge group rides with no traffic controls or directions and people just naturally flow around each other because of how little space they take, how they're slower and how the act of riding a bicycle means you can't really take the aggressive driving risks that people do with vehicles, especially oversized trucks and SUVs.
A while ago on MetaFilter I did some exploratory math about how many miles of rail and rolling stock we could build instead of freeways, roads and privately owned cars and I tilted the math heavily in favor of cars just to give them a fighting chance because I already knew that rail was going to win, and even then with that massive advantage the figure I came up with was that we could build something like 2-3x the amount of rails than we could paved roads and cars with plenty of rolling stock and frequent train service ranging from hyper-local to national.
If anyone wants to run the same thought experiment I based this back of the envelope math by looking up statistics on how many miles of paved roads there are, how many of them are freeways, how much metal and materials they used per mile (and rounding down to give roads an advantage), how many cars there are in the US and the average vehicular weight for a basic car and sedan and how much metal it used (and again rounding down and not really counting large pickup trucks, SUVs or freight trucks in the average weights) and then how much metal per mile a dual or quad track rail line used, and then how much metal needed for rolling stock and infrastructure (and rounding up, here, aiming for a ridiculous amount of rail rolling stock with very frequent service schedules) and so on. As I recall I think I even included unpaved but improved gravel roads in the total mileage of roads in the US just to be extra, extra sure of my math and giving cars and roads all the benefits and favors.
And it still came out to like 2-3x the amount of railways than roads if we just replaced most/all cars with rail transit.
Think about that for a moment. Everywhere you see a paved road in your life could be 2 to 3 times the amount of rails. You could walk out of your suburban home and take a local trolly, streetcar or light rail train to regional rail, high speed intercity rail and end up, well, anywhere and everywhere that you could via a paved road and then some more.
That means you could walk out your door basically anywhere in the US whether it was urban, suburban or rural and there would be a train line there. You could pack up a bunch of camping gear on a rolling hand cart, get on a train, and ride a series of trains to basically any remote national or state park you'd care to visit for a weekend trip or vacation.
We could have enough rail lines, rolling stock and high frequency service you could go to Costco and load up an entire car's worth of groceries and it might even be less hassle than driving a car there and all of the hassle of finding parking, moving that load of groceries into your cart in the store, then out to the car, then into your house. You could design rail networks and rolling stock to support this kind of errand-running with plenty of room to just roll your wagon or shopping cart right on the train all the way to your block or front door. Service would be so frequent and even capable of 24 hour service you didn't even need to look at train schedules or do complicated route planning because all you would really need to know is how often to expect a train.
This doesn't even begin to consider side benefits like less pollution, less land needed for roads, freeways or parking or how much of that wasted land could be repurposed for housing, agriculture, parks and more.
I don't think that the people who think that cars equate to freedom really even know what freedom means or how enslaved by car culture we really are or how deadly it has been to us for our health, for our culture and politics and how much it effects our daily lives and nearly everything we do on global scales.
Fuck cars. It's fucking pure madness. If bicycles killed as many people as cars do per mile or person they would be banned and made illegal. But for some reason if its cars no one questions it and it is just how it is.
posted by loquacious at 3:19 PM on January 4, 2023 [19 favorites]
Having a DIY ebike has definitely been a game changer for my life of cycling as I get older, but I also recognize that it has a lot limitations. But it's been amazing to know that I can do 20-25 miles with a 60-80+ pound load of groceries or cargo without even pedaling at all just using my quasi-legal throttle, and if I keep the speed down and pedal more that range nearly triples.
If we give them some space and support ebikes are going to change and transform urban, suburban and even rural transit for the better. They already are even without support and infrastructure. I'm firmly in the rural category, but I live right on a major bike trail in a place that supports cycling more than most in the US. Also, I can note that ebikes have, well, blown up in popularity out here, going from about 1 in 50 bikes or less to as much as 6-7 out of 10 bikes I see out on the trails and roads in about 3-4 years.
But a lot of those limitations aren't really about the bike, but the infrastructure. I know from my experience living and riding in urban places that 90-99% of my stress and fatigue with biking isn't the biking part at all, but having to mix it up with vehicular traffic on roads and stop and go traffic. City roads are horrible for biking with all the stop and go traffic, the road hazards and road conditions and so much more extra stress and friction, and bikes are most efficient when they can just naturally flow at bike speeds and not get stuck in stop and go vehicular traffic.
In my experience one mile of riding on the streets of of a major city is about the same stress and effort as 5-10 miles on a grade separated bike path with good flow. Where I am now is about a 15 mile round trip from home to town and shopping and if I did that in LA it would be so much more stressful and it would cover a major chunk of even a big metropolitan city.
Bikes are amazing for easy traffic flow because they don't really need traffic light controls. I've been on huge group rides with no traffic controls or directions and people just naturally flow around each other because of how little space they take, how they're slower and how the act of riding a bicycle means you can't really take the aggressive driving risks that people do with vehicles, especially oversized trucks and SUVs.
A while ago on MetaFilter I did some exploratory math about how many miles of rail and rolling stock we could build instead of freeways, roads and privately owned cars and I tilted the math heavily in favor of cars just to give them a fighting chance because I already knew that rail was going to win, and even then with that massive advantage the figure I came up with was that we could build something like 2-3x the amount of rails than we could paved roads and cars with plenty of rolling stock and frequent train service ranging from hyper-local to national.
If anyone wants to run the same thought experiment I based this back of the envelope math by looking up statistics on how many miles of paved roads there are, how many of them are freeways, how much metal and materials they used per mile (and rounding down to give roads an advantage), how many cars there are in the US and the average vehicular weight for a basic car and sedan and how much metal it used (and again rounding down and not really counting large pickup trucks, SUVs or freight trucks in the average weights) and then how much metal per mile a dual or quad track rail line used, and then how much metal needed for rolling stock and infrastructure (and rounding up, here, aiming for a ridiculous amount of rail rolling stock with very frequent service schedules) and so on. As I recall I think I even included unpaved but improved gravel roads in the total mileage of roads in the US just to be extra, extra sure of my math and giving cars and roads all the benefits and favors.
And it still came out to like 2-3x the amount of railways than roads if we just replaced most/all cars with rail transit.
Think about that for a moment. Everywhere you see a paved road in your life could be 2 to 3 times the amount of rails. You could walk out of your suburban home and take a local trolly, streetcar or light rail train to regional rail, high speed intercity rail and end up, well, anywhere and everywhere that you could via a paved road and then some more.
That means you could walk out your door basically anywhere in the US whether it was urban, suburban or rural and there would be a train line there. You could pack up a bunch of camping gear on a rolling hand cart, get on a train, and ride a series of trains to basically any remote national or state park you'd care to visit for a weekend trip or vacation.
We could have enough rail lines, rolling stock and high frequency service you could go to Costco and load up an entire car's worth of groceries and it might even be less hassle than driving a car there and all of the hassle of finding parking, moving that load of groceries into your cart in the store, then out to the car, then into your house. You could design rail networks and rolling stock to support this kind of errand-running with plenty of room to just roll your wagon or shopping cart right on the train all the way to your block or front door. Service would be so frequent and even capable of 24 hour service you didn't even need to look at train schedules or do complicated route planning because all you would really need to know is how often to expect a train.
This doesn't even begin to consider side benefits like less pollution, less land needed for roads, freeways or parking or how much of that wasted land could be repurposed for housing, agriculture, parks and more.
I don't think that the people who think that cars equate to freedom really even know what freedom means or how enslaved by car culture we really are or how deadly it has been to us for our health, for our culture and politics and how much it effects our daily lives and nearly everything we do on global scales.
Fuck cars. It's fucking pure madness. If bicycles killed as many people as cars do per mile or person they would be banned and made illegal. But for some reason if its cars no one questions it and it is just how it is.
posted by loquacious at 3:19 PM on January 4, 2023 [19 favorites]
Side note following up on a comment that’s a ways back now: the 2022 RAV4 Prime is a full sized SUV, sadly, absolutely not the small crossover that the original RAV4s were.
posted by eviemath at 4:01 PM on January 4, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by eviemath at 4:01 PM on January 4, 2023 [1 favorite]
There's no reason for EVs to be big or expensive.
Not monster-sized, for sure, but there are issues. Batteries are quite heavy, around 1000-1200 lbs. EVs weigh more than similarly sized ICE cars. That's why you don't see any EV Miatas (yet).
As far as expense, until manufacturers retool their factories, there are economies of scale that contribute to higher costs. The battery contributes there as well, nearly 1/3 the cost, depending on the car.
posted by CheeseDigestsAll at 4:12 PM on January 4, 2023 [1 favorite]
Not monster-sized, for sure, but there are issues. Batteries are quite heavy, around 1000-1200 lbs. EVs weigh more than similarly sized ICE cars. That's why you don't see any EV Miatas (yet).
As far as expense, until manufacturers retool their factories, there are economies of scale that contribute to higher costs. The battery contributes there as well, nearly 1/3 the cost, depending on the car.
posted by CheeseDigestsAll at 4:12 PM on January 4, 2023 [1 favorite]
Side note following up on a comment that’s a ways back now: the 2022 RAV4 Prime is a full sized SUV, sadly, absolutely not the small crossover that the original RAV4s were.
Aww, dang — the smaller form was a selling point, imho. Thanks for the info.
posted by darkstar at 4:24 PM on January 4, 2023 [1 favorite]
Aww, dang — the smaller form was a selling point, imho. Thanks for the info.
posted by darkstar at 4:24 PM on January 4, 2023 [1 favorite]
I love a loquacious e-bike comment!
If bicycles killed as many people as cars do per mile or person they would be banned and made illegal. Some places are already trying to ban or limit e-bikes and scooters for occasional injuries to pedestrians and yes the rare but tragic death. I see that and absolutely no energy for making driving safer for pedestrians and try not to weep.
But seriously, this is it right here: If we give them some space and support ebikes are going to change and transform urban, suburban and even rural transit for the better.
This is true. If your lifestyle or ability or hell, even love for cars means you'd rather own and drive a car, that's fine, please just get out of the way of those of us trying to build the space and support loquacious is talking about. Because e-bikes ARE transformative and you would be surprised at how many car trips we can reduce with a lot more carrot and only a little bit of stick. And that will mean less traffic and a better and safer experience for everyone, including the remaining car drivers. Which I certainly hope are all EVs eventually (and yes, please, smaller ones), but as a complement to not a replacement for general efforts to change the car-centric nature of our cities.
Yesterday I rode my e-bike 10mi each way to work. It was 40 degrees and raining in the morning, not my favorite weather and I'll admit I was poorly dressed for it, so my legs got quite wet and cold. But it was tolerable because with the e-bike I wasn't layering exhaustion from fighting the headwinds into the experience. And although I have access to a shower at work, I didn't need it because I didn't get sweaty! Anyone who rides bikes in "bad" weather knows that it's a delicate balance of being cold for the first 10 minutes so you're not drenched in sweat for the remaining 30 and with an e-bike it's just not a concern. Dress as warmly as you want, unless you really overdress you're not gonna get super sweaty.
Here's where the "space and support" part comes in. On the way home, I had several terrifying experiences, all due to a lack of or poorly maintained infrastructure. It was after 5pm so it was dark, roads were wet, and about halfway home I hit light fog. (I wear a fully reflective jacket and a light up blinking vest, and the bike has built in front and rear lights.)
My experiences:
Street lights were out for at least a block in every direction at the intersection where I have to turn left at a four-way stop. Drivers NEVER stop at four-way stops here, and it was even more terrifying in pitch black and fog. I had no way to know if a driver would stop or even slow down, and if the slowdown was in recognition that it was my turn or just perfunctory before they punched the gas pedal to zoom to the next stop sign.
I hit an invisible pothole/crack in a poorly maintained paint-only bike lane and it was so violent I almost got thrown off my bike and I thought I blew out my tire. A car was driving alongside of me right at that moment and I could have ended up under wheels if I went down. Grateful I had the bike handling skills to stay upright.
Another part of my commute is a "contraflow" bike lane as part of this much-touted-by-ChicagoDOT new bike lane network in my neighborhood. It means the bike lane is in the opposite direction of car traffic on an otherwise one way street. The street is in such disrepair I'm surprised they were allowed to even attempt to paint it, making for a miserable pothole-dodging experience. And drivers ALSO try to dodge the potholes by driving head-on into the paint-only bike lane. I had a fun game of chicken with a giant pickup truck with a hood so tall I'm not sure the driver could see me, and I was blinded by their headlights.
Then I turned onto another paint-only bike lane that just... disappears as the road narrows under a viaduct right at the entrance to a Walmart parking lot on one side and an Aldi and McDonalds with drive-thru on the other. Drivers there do NOT see you and do not care about squeezing you into the 2-foot-high curb. And the chaos in that area was amplified by the fact that a traffic signal at the next major intersection was broken and flashing red, causing all the road rage and risky behavior you can imagine when drivers are inconvenienced or delayed.
My point is, I guess, that e-bikes solve most of the issues of biking itself (endurance, strength, sweating, etc.) but we have GOT to solve the issue of cars to make biking doable to replace at least some of the car trips taken by your average person. Denver's e-bike rebate pilot was a huge success on this front:
On average, [recipients] self-reported riding their new two-wheeled electric vehicles 26 miles a week, replacing an average of 3.4 car trips over the same period of time.
But to really successfully replace car trips, drivers have to give up some space - mostly street parking, maybe one lane out of 3 or 4 - and speed, especially but not exclusively at intersections. This means no turn on red, tighter turning radii, signals with leading pedestrian and cyclist intervals, etc. Just stop fighting progress at every goddamn turn, please. The end result will be better for almost everyone.
posted by misskaz at 4:33 PM on January 4, 2023 [11 favorites]
If bicycles killed as many people as cars do per mile or person they would be banned and made illegal. Some places are already trying to ban or limit e-bikes and scooters for occasional injuries to pedestrians and yes the rare but tragic death. I see that and absolutely no energy for making driving safer for pedestrians and try not to weep.
But seriously, this is it right here: If we give them some space and support ebikes are going to change and transform urban, suburban and even rural transit for the better.
This is true. If your lifestyle or ability or hell, even love for cars means you'd rather own and drive a car, that's fine, please just get out of the way of those of us trying to build the space and support loquacious is talking about. Because e-bikes ARE transformative and you would be surprised at how many car trips we can reduce with a lot more carrot and only a little bit of stick. And that will mean less traffic and a better and safer experience for everyone, including the remaining car drivers. Which I certainly hope are all EVs eventually (and yes, please, smaller ones), but as a complement to not a replacement for general efforts to change the car-centric nature of our cities.
Yesterday I rode my e-bike 10mi each way to work. It was 40 degrees and raining in the morning, not my favorite weather and I'll admit I was poorly dressed for it, so my legs got quite wet and cold. But it was tolerable because with the e-bike I wasn't layering exhaustion from fighting the headwinds into the experience. And although I have access to a shower at work, I didn't need it because I didn't get sweaty! Anyone who rides bikes in "bad" weather knows that it's a delicate balance of being cold for the first 10 minutes so you're not drenched in sweat for the remaining 30 and with an e-bike it's just not a concern. Dress as warmly as you want, unless you really overdress you're not gonna get super sweaty.
Here's where the "space and support" part comes in. On the way home, I had several terrifying experiences, all due to a lack of or poorly maintained infrastructure. It was after 5pm so it was dark, roads were wet, and about halfway home I hit light fog. (I wear a fully reflective jacket and a light up blinking vest, and the bike has built in front and rear lights.)
My experiences:
Street lights were out for at least a block in every direction at the intersection where I have to turn left at a four-way stop. Drivers NEVER stop at four-way stops here, and it was even more terrifying in pitch black and fog. I had no way to know if a driver would stop or even slow down, and if the slowdown was in recognition that it was my turn or just perfunctory before they punched the gas pedal to zoom to the next stop sign.
I hit an invisible pothole/crack in a poorly maintained paint-only bike lane and it was so violent I almost got thrown off my bike and I thought I blew out my tire. A car was driving alongside of me right at that moment and I could have ended up under wheels if I went down. Grateful I had the bike handling skills to stay upright.
Another part of my commute is a "contraflow" bike lane as part of this much-touted-by-ChicagoDOT new bike lane network in my neighborhood. It means the bike lane is in the opposite direction of car traffic on an otherwise one way street. The street is in such disrepair I'm surprised they were allowed to even attempt to paint it, making for a miserable pothole-dodging experience. And drivers ALSO try to dodge the potholes by driving head-on into the paint-only bike lane. I had a fun game of chicken with a giant pickup truck with a hood so tall I'm not sure the driver could see me, and I was blinded by their headlights.
Then I turned onto another paint-only bike lane that just... disappears as the road narrows under a viaduct right at the entrance to a Walmart parking lot on one side and an Aldi and McDonalds with drive-thru on the other. Drivers there do NOT see you and do not care about squeezing you into the 2-foot-high curb. And the chaos in that area was amplified by the fact that a traffic signal at the next major intersection was broken and flashing red, causing all the road rage and risky behavior you can imagine when drivers are inconvenienced or delayed.
My point is, I guess, that e-bikes solve most of the issues of biking itself (endurance, strength, sweating, etc.) but we have GOT to solve the issue of cars to make biking doable to replace at least some of the car trips taken by your average person. Denver's e-bike rebate pilot was a huge success on this front:
On average, [recipients] self-reported riding their new two-wheeled electric vehicles 26 miles a week, replacing an average of 3.4 car trips over the same period of time.
But to really successfully replace car trips, drivers have to give up some space - mostly street parking, maybe one lane out of 3 or 4 - and speed, especially but not exclusively at intersections. This means no turn on red, tighter turning radii, signals with leading pedestrian and cyclist intervals, etc. Just stop fighting progress at every goddamn turn, please. The end result will be better for almost everyone.
posted by misskaz at 4:33 PM on January 4, 2023 [11 favorites]
If bicycles killed as many people as cars do per mile or person they would be banned and made illegal.In the US, there are far more deaths, per person-mile, on bicycles than while driving (compare Fig. 4 here to car figure here). Even in the safest countries to bicycle, like Holland, it's not safer than driving in the US on a per-person-mile basis.
posted by kickingtheground at 4:46 PM on January 4, 2023 [1 favorite]
I can’t tell if that includes pedestrian deaths by passenger vehicle.
posted by clew at 4:54 PM on January 4, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by clew at 4:54 PM on January 4, 2023 [4 favorites]
I'm sure they happen but I can't think of a bicycle fatality that didn't involve a motor vehicle. Do we have a figure for bicycle riders killed by things other than motor vehicles? Because otherwise the bicycle fatality statistics are really just saying that motor vehicles are really dangerous for people on bicycles.
posted by any portmanteau in a storm at 4:55 PM on January 4, 2023 [12 favorites]
posted by any portmanteau in a storm at 4:55 PM on January 4, 2023 [12 favorites]
Yes, many of the people killed by cars are bicycle riders. As your own link says, “From 2007 through 2018, FARS data show that motor vehicle crashes accounted for 8,908 bicyclist fatalities, averaging 742 per year, or 2 per day.”If bicycles killed as many people as cars do per mile or person they would be banned and made illegal.In the US, there are far more deaths, per person-mile, on bicycles than while driving
posted by mbrubeck at 4:58 PM on January 4, 2023 [12 favorites]
It looks like...about ⅔ of US bike fatalities are from collisions with cars?
posted by kickingtheground at 5:16 PM on January 4, 2023 [1 favorite]
Of the 1,260 bicyclist deaths in 2020, 806 died in motor-vehicle traffic crashes and 454 in other non-traffic incidents, according to National Center for Health Statistics mortality data.(cite)That would mean that bicycling in the US is still somewhat more dangerous per-passenger-mile than traveling by car, even after excluding those collisions.
posted by kickingtheground at 5:16 PM on January 4, 2023 [1 favorite]
Though note that the health benefits of cycling are great enough that it is generally found to reduce mortality compared to car driving, despite the risks. [cite 1] [cite 2] [cite 3]
posted by mbrubeck at 5:29 PM on January 4, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by mbrubeck at 5:29 PM on January 4, 2023 [3 favorites]
Wow, that's still a lot of deaths on bicycles. Thanks for finding that! I wish there were some more detail on what those non-traffic deaths were. I know on my commute there's one hill each way where I can hit 40+ km/h without pedalling and I always think while I'm going down that if something happens with my bike or if some stray animal runs into my wheels then it isn't going to end well for me. Big Data has also determined that I'm interested in mountain biking so I get sent a lot of videos of people "sending it" on various courses and yeah I could see some of those jumps ending pretty poorly as well and there wouldn't be any car to blame there either.
posted by any portmanteau in a storm at 5:58 PM on January 4, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by any portmanteau in a storm at 5:58 PM on January 4, 2023 [1 favorite]
Biggest Barrier to Biking Is the Fear of Cars
It is a mantra on Treehugger that three things are needed for a bike and e-bike revolution: good affordable bikes, safe places to ride, and secure places to park. But all three things are not of equal weight. A new study, "Barriers and enablers of bike riding for transport and recreational purposes in Australia," based on surveys in Melbourne, finds that the fear of being squished by a car far outweighs any other consideration.
posted by Artw at 6:56 PM on January 4, 2023 [9 favorites]
It is a mantra on Treehugger that three things are needed for a bike and e-bike revolution: good affordable bikes, safe places to ride, and secure places to park. But all three things are not of equal weight. A new study, "Barriers and enablers of bike riding for transport and recreational purposes in Australia," based on surveys in Melbourne, finds that the fear of being squished by a car far outweighs any other consideration.
posted by Artw at 6:56 PM on January 4, 2023 [9 favorites]
I wish hatchbacks become popular again.
That's why I love the Chevy Bolt EUV we just bought, it's basically a hatchback, even smaller than the "small SUV" Crosstrek I used to have.
Also the cheapest EV on the market (in its slightly smaller Bolt EV model). And Chevrolet is selling A LOT more of these than Hummer EVs.
Yeah, I also have an eBike, but in rural America it would be pretty hard to make it my only vehicle.
posted by mmoncur at 7:27 PM on January 4, 2023 [4 favorites]
That's why I love the Chevy Bolt EUV we just bought, it's basically a hatchback, even smaller than the "small SUV" Crosstrek I used to have.
Also the cheapest EV on the market (in its slightly smaller Bolt EV model). And Chevrolet is selling A LOT more of these than Hummer EVs.
Yeah, I also have an eBike, but in rural America it would be pretty hard to make it my only vehicle.
posted by mmoncur at 7:27 PM on January 4, 2023 [4 favorites]
give up on getting laid entirely (Prius Prime)
I’m not up on the dating game (doubly so if we’re talking heterosexual dating), is the sexual attraction killer the Prius Prime in specific or Priuses in general? I’m so curious.
posted by brook horse at 7:47 PM on January 4, 2023 [5 favorites]
I’m not up on the dating game (doubly so if we’re talking heterosexual dating), is the sexual attraction killer the Prius Prime in specific or Priuses in general? I’m so curious.
posted by brook horse at 7:47 PM on January 4, 2023 [5 favorites]
finds that the fear of being squished by a car far outweighs any other consideration.
Yup. No decent bike lanes between my home and work means No Thank You to an eBike. It’s a shame, too, but I’d rather not end up under someone’s SUV when they decide to take a quick right turn into McDonalds without first looking to see if a cyclist was next to them.
The Bolt looks interesting.
posted by darkstar at 7:57 PM on January 4, 2023 [1 favorite]
Yup. No decent bike lanes between my home and work means No Thank You to an eBike. It’s a shame, too, but I’d rather not end up under someone’s SUV when they decide to take a quick right turn into McDonalds without first looking to see if a cyclist was next to them.
The Bolt looks interesting.
posted by darkstar at 7:57 PM on January 4, 2023 [1 favorite]
Talking about terrible drivers in ever enlarging vehicles on perpetually underinflated tires.
this is my DFW summary feeling.
posted by djseafood at 8:22 PM on January 4, 2023
this is my DFW summary feeling.
posted by djseafood at 8:22 PM on January 4, 2023
That's why I love the Chevy Bolt EUV we just bought
(Cue high RP mode)
May god damn you sir! I say again, may god damn you!
(End RP)
…I’ve been trying to get one for six damn months to replace my 2006 car that I never drive and thus spend irrational amounts on maintenance because ICE cars suck and I hate them, and they’re impossible to find ‘round here without a bribe. The Ioniq 5 is even worse, and here I was hoping I could at least get some kind of EV even if it wasn’t the Bolt (I have overall length requirements).
posted by aramaic at 8:52 PM on January 4, 2023 [2 favorites]
(Cue high RP mode)
May god damn you sir! I say again, may god damn you!
(End RP)
…I’ve been trying to get one for six damn months to replace my 2006 car that I never drive and thus spend irrational amounts on maintenance because ICE cars suck and I hate them, and they’re impossible to find ‘round here without a bribe. The Ioniq 5 is even worse, and here I was hoping I could at least get some kind of EV even if it wasn’t the Bolt (I have overall length requirements).
posted by aramaic at 8:52 PM on January 4, 2023 [2 favorites]
A wore from a very happy owner of a 2019 Prius Prime! It's fantastic--we get 30ish miles on full EV, and that is most of our driving. We average around 550 mpg and go to the gas station every few months. At home, we charge with our solar panels. The experience is unbelievably liberating. It's zippy to drive and so quiet! In rental cars, it feels like we have to yell to talk. Is the Prius Prime sexy? No. But a sexy car is about as pointless as a giant Ford behemoth truck.
We had a Fit before this and wanted a hybrid Fit, but since that does not exist in the US, this was out best option when the Fit got totaled. Our next car will definitely be full EV, but since we had to replace the wrecked car, this was a great transition vehicle.
posted by mostlymartha at 9:22 PM on January 4, 2023 [4 favorites]
We had a Fit before this and wanted a hybrid Fit, but since that does not exist in the US, this was out best option when the Fit got totaled. Our next car will definitely be full EV, but since we had to replace the wrecked car, this was a great transition vehicle.
posted by mostlymartha at 9:22 PM on January 4, 2023 [4 favorites]
is the sexual attraction killer the Prius Prime in specific or Priuses in general?
All Priuses. Prime just means you can directly charge the battery from the wall/charger. Huge disclaimer that the following is, like, strictly speaking from the perspective of an early 40s straight white cis dude (financially comfortable intersectional socialist edition) getting back into the dating scene in the People’s Republic of Cambridge (said with love and relish, not a sneer):
There is a social signaling aspect to vehicle ownership - a McLaren owner is fuck-you rich and wants to shout it, a Maserati owner is fuck-you rich and wants to quietly brag about it, and a Lexus owner thinks a pretentious overpriced Toyota can fool people into believing they are one of the Maserati owners (people say nasty things about BMW drivers but nothing and nobody on the road is more consistently a pointlessly dickish entitled asshole than a Lexus driver. Not even close).
For comparison I usually drive a newish Honda Civic (sometimes Hybrid or Sport) or Nissan Sentra, intended to signal “I really don’t care about cars, here is a very practical commuter pod that looks nice enough I guess.”
Back to my point: a Prius - any Prius - is among the cars I want most when I am already 3+ years into a steady relationship. Safe, practical, as socially responsible as combustion gets and god-tier for Boston’s parking Hunger Games. There are at least twenty of them in my apartment building’s underground garage right now, probably closer to forty or fifty. Easily outnumbering the Teslas and BMWs. It is absolutely not something I want to roll up in on a first date - for a single aging yuppie dude it positively screams tryhard vegan at a “rolling coal” level. Kinda like how I wouldn’t wear my old Bernie t-shirt or my new AOC t-shirt on a first date, either. Hence the Toyota Horseshoe Theory / Toyota Get Over Yourself joke above.
posted by Ryvar at 10:57 PM on January 4, 2023 [1 favorite]
All Priuses. Prime just means you can directly charge the battery from the wall/charger. Huge disclaimer that the following is, like, strictly speaking from the perspective of an early 40s straight white cis dude (financially comfortable intersectional socialist edition) getting back into the dating scene in the People’s Republic of Cambridge (said with love and relish, not a sneer):
There is a social signaling aspect to vehicle ownership - a McLaren owner is fuck-you rich and wants to shout it, a Maserati owner is fuck-you rich and wants to quietly brag about it, and a Lexus owner thinks a pretentious overpriced Toyota can fool people into believing they are one of the Maserati owners (people say nasty things about BMW drivers but nothing and nobody on the road is more consistently a pointlessly dickish entitled asshole than a Lexus driver. Not even close).
For comparison I usually drive a newish Honda Civic (sometimes Hybrid or Sport) or Nissan Sentra, intended to signal “I really don’t care about cars, here is a very practical commuter pod that looks nice enough I guess.”
Back to my point: a Prius - any Prius - is among the cars I want most when I am already 3+ years into a steady relationship. Safe, practical, as socially responsible as combustion gets and god-tier for Boston’s parking Hunger Games. There are at least twenty of them in my apartment building’s underground garage right now, probably closer to forty or fifty. Easily outnumbering the Teslas and BMWs. It is absolutely not something I want to roll up in on a first date - for a single aging yuppie dude it positively screams tryhard vegan at a “rolling coal” level. Kinda like how I wouldn’t wear my old Bernie t-shirt or my new AOC t-shirt on a first date, either. Hence the Toyota Horseshoe Theory / Toyota Get Over Yourself joke above.
posted by Ryvar at 10:57 PM on January 4, 2023 [1 favorite]
ctrl-f ID-3
:(
This is regulatory failure. Short of adding blades to the axles and spikes on the hood, it would be hard to design a more lethal vehicle for pedestrians. There is no good reason for vehicles with such poor visibility and such poor impact characteristics to be allowed on our streets.
posted by MengerSponge at 11:26 PM on January 4, 2023
:(
This is regulatory failure. Short of adding blades to the axles and spikes on the hood, it would be hard to design a more lethal vehicle for pedestrians. There is no good reason for vehicles with such poor visibility and such poor impact characteristics to be allowed on our streets.
posted by MengerSponge at 11:26 PM on January 4, 2023
Side note following up on a comment that’s a ways back now: the 2022 RAV4 Prime is a full sized SUV, sadly, absolutely not the small crossover that the original RAV4s were.
Aww, dang — the smaller form was a selling point, imho. Thanks for the info.
RAV4s are still crossovers, with the current version built on the same platform as a Camry. They basically haven't changed size since the 2005 refresh, when they got about 18" longer and 5" wider. (We just bought a used 2021 Prime to replace our 2012 Prius V—it's the same length and a couple inches wider.)
Oh, and re: Priuses, why are so many people here bemoaning the lack of available hatchbacks when like every tenth car I see on the road seems to be a Prius? And what about the Nissan Leaf?
posted by The Tensor at 12:53 AM on January 5, 2023 [2 favorites]
Aww, dang — the smaller form was a selling point, imho. Thanks for the info.
RAV4s are still crossovers, with the current version built on the same platform as a Camry. They basically haven't changed size since the 2005 refresh, when they got about 18" longer and 5" wider. (We just bought a used 2021 Prime to replace our 2012 Prius V—it's the same length and a couple inches wider.)
Oh, and re: Priuses, why are so many people here bemoaning the lack of available hatchbacks when like every tenth car I see on the road seems to be a Prius? And what about the Nissan Leaf?
posted by The Tensor at 12:53 AM on January 5, 2023 [2 favorites]
There are a lot of environment-damaging aspects of cars and car-oriented design that have nothing to do with the kinds of engine. Tire particles are a major source of particulate pollution. Impermeable surfaces lead to heat islands and more stormwater flooding. The production of asphalt and concrete is not without environmental impacts, and larger, heavier cars means more frequent repair and replacement.
Yes, and there is no solution to eliminating car dependency in most US cities that won't take the better part of a century to complete. We've been building wrong for 70 years. It will take at least another 70 years to fix the problem and EVs aren't the solution. EVs are a more immediate solution to the vast amount of carbon emitted by personal automobile use. One that is necessary for there to be much of a world left to give a shit about 70 years from now.
posted by wierdo at 1:24 AM on January 5, 2023 [5 favorites]
Yes, and there is no solution to eliminating car dependency in most US cities that won't take the better part of a century to complete. We've been building wrong for 70 years. It will take at least another 70 years to fix the problem and EVs aren't the solution. EVs are a more immediate solution to the vast amount of carbon emitted by personal automobile use. One that is necessary for there to be much of a world left to give a shit about 70 years from now.
posted by wierdo at 1:24 AM on January 5, 2023 [5 favorites]
That would be a much more convincing argument if anything was actually being done to address car dependency. Instead "it takes forever" seems to be a reason to not do anything, rather than to have started yesterday.
posted by Dysk at 1:28 AM on January 5, 2023 [11 favorites]
posted by Dysk at 1:28 AM on January 5, 2023 [11 favorites]
In response to “where are all the small cars?”, I mean, Japan, and it’s pretty awesome. I’m hopeful our current car is the last ICE we’ll ever own, though I’ve dialed back my irrational exuberance over the idea of automated cars on hire that would obviate the need for private vehicle ownership (goddamn, can you imagine how liberating it would be to no longer need parking? How much more space the average home would recover, let alone city would be if parking wasn’t the be all/end all of urban planning?). It will happen some day, but probably not soon enough to keep us from needing to buy another car down the line.
As far as the general size of cars, it’s not that there aren’t dumb big cars in Japan (looking at you, aggressively large family vans), but that even smaller American imports stand out as being stupidly big, and more often than not, you can see the driver, sitting high above traffic, smugly enjoying the statement they’re trying to make by driving their chauvinistic fantasy wagon around town. It’s cute seeing them try to park in Japanese sized parking spaces, though, or every once in a while trying to figure out why someone would pay that much (import fees, etc) for a Ford Explorer.
posted by Ghidorah at 3:08 AM on January 5, 2023 [1 favorite]
As far as the general size of cars, it’s not that there aren’t dumb big cars in Japan (looking at you, aggressively large family vans), but that even smaller American imports stand out as being stupidly big, and more often than not, you can see the driver, sitting high above traffic, smugly enjoying the statement they’re trying to make by driving their chauvinistic fantasy wagon around town. It’s cute seeing them try to park in Japanese sized parking spaces, though, or every once in a while trying to figure out why someone would pay that much (import fees, etc) for a Ford Explorer.
posted by Ghidorah at 3:08 AM on January 5, 2023 [1 favorite]
I mean, sure, the current RAV4 Prime is classified as a crossover. But SUV and all sub-category sizes have also been increasingly, so it’s definitely not a small exemplar of the category. It’s significantly larger than the original RAV4.
posted by eviemath at 3:16 AM on January 5, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by eviemath at 3:16 AM on January 5, 2023 [1 favorite]
For the record, GM sold 16,108 Bolt EV's in 2022, and a total of 72 Hummer EVs.
I think the following beliefs of mine aren't crazy:
1. Less cars overall would be a good idea though hard to make happen.
2. EVs are better for the environment than gas cars.
3. Giant-ass bro-tastic behemoths are not good for the environment, or for pedestrians or other drivers, and this is true whether they're electric or not.
posted by mmoncur at 3:27 AM on January 5, 2023 [7 favorites]
I think the following beliefs of mine aren't crazy:
1. Less cars overall would be a good idea though hard to make happen.
2. EVs are better for the environment than gas cars.
3. Giant-ass bro-tastic behemoths are not good for the environment, or for pedestrians or other drivers, and this is true whether they're electric or not.
posted by mmoncur at 3:27 AM on January 5, 2023 [7 favorites]
(And I see I misused the technical industry term “full size SUV” in my earlier comment to refer to something of (historically) average SUV size, rather than a vehicle classified as a full sized SUV. Apologies for the confusion!)
posted by eviemath at 3:30 AM on January 5, 2023
posted by eviemath at 3:30 AM on January 5, 2023
Instead "it takes forever" seems to be a reason to not do anything, rather than to have started yesterday.
I wish more people would go with a simple "Yes to more pedestrian and public transportation."
Otherwise, to put it bluntly, get out of the way.
Everyone already knows we don't need a high-speed rail into every barn.
The incessant 'but what about xyz' responses are basically a bad habit that need to be broken.
Where I live in Europe, a lot of the same arguments we're seeing here were made years ago. But once there was a political and social consensus that infrastructure needs to change things moved much faster. And they could move even more quickly, if there was more will to do so.
Some of the loudest voices for more and better public transportation come from the countryside at this point.
posted by UN at 4:07 AM on January 5, 2023 [5 favorites]
I wish more people would go with a simple "Yes to more pedestrian and public transportation."
Otherwise, to put it bluntly, get out of the way.
Everyone already knows we don't need a high-speed rail into every barn.
The incessant 'but what about xyz' responses are basically a bad habit that need to be broken.
Where I live in Europe, a lot of the same arguments we're seeing here were made years ago. But once there was a political and social consensus that infrastructure needs to change things moved much faster. And they could move even more quickly, if there was more will to do so.
Some of the loudest voices for more and better public transportation come from the countryside at this point.
posted by UN at 4:07 AM on January 5, 2023 [5 favorites]
Maybe it would take 70 years to retrofit suburbs with less car-centric infrastructure. But not cities. You could mandate that every time a street is resurfaced it is redesigned with specific complete streets features (bike lanes, protected by concrete when at all possible, sidewalk bulb outs and pedestrian islands, etc.) and it wouldn't take anything more than political will.
And that's to say nothing of improving the cheapest form of mass transit: busses. Chicago is literally leaving federal money on the table right now by not pursuing bus rapid transit projects. It's a failure of leadership, not a immutable fact of the universe that it would take 70 years to make significant improvements in the places where the most humans live.
posted by misskaz at 4:47 AM on January 5, 2023 [6 favorites]
And that's to say nothing of improving the cheapest form of mass transit: busses. Chicago is literally leaving federal money on the table right now by not pursuing bus rapid transit projects. It's a failure of leadership, not a immutable fact of the universe that it would take 70 years to make significant improvements in the places where the most humans live.
posted by misskaz at 4:47 AM on January 5, 2023 [6 favorites]
I’d rather not end up under someone’s SUV when they decide to take a quick right turn into McDonalds without first looking to see if a cyclist was next to them.
This is precisely why I hate painted bike gutters and prefer taking the lane like a car. It worked well enough in the land of giant trucks that had few bike lanes but commutes short enough that people didn't turn into complete fucking monsters the moment they get behind the wheel.
posted by wierdo at 4:59 AM on January 5, 2023 [1 favorite]
This is precisely why I hate painted bike gutters and prefer taking the lane like a car. It worked well enough in the land of giant trucks that had few bike lanes but commutes short enough that people didn't turn into complete fucking monsters the moment they get behind the wheel.
posted by wierdo at 4:59 AM on January 5, 2023 [1 favorite]
Sony unveils prototype EV, Afeela, to be made with Honda. It's an actual car, y'all, and it will be made in the US, so eligible for the IRA tax break.
posted by hydropsyche at 5:03 AM on January 5, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by hydropsyche at 5:03 AM on January 5, 2023 [1 favorite]
That would be a much more convincing argument if anything was actually being done to address car dependency. Instead "it takes forever" seems to be a reason to not do anything, rather than to have started yesterday.
Some places are working towards it. Being the US, however, it's entirely dependent on the locality. Tulsa was building MUTs like crazy when I lived there and has expanded the network since. Miami has been removing car lanes when reconstructing streets to make room for wider sidewalks and reasonably wide bike lanes.
Even the shitty South Florida suburb I live in has added a bunch of bike gutters in the last several years. I'd never use the one next to my house; they'd have to remove car lanes or at least change the storm water grates for a kind that doesn't seem specifically intended to kill cyclists for that and the road isn't up for reconstruction for at least another decade or two, but it's a start.
But yes, cities should do more. Most roads aren't built by cities, they're built by developers as a condition of getting to build whatever it is they are building. More reasonable standards as to how roads are built would move the needle over time.
posted by wierdo at 5:08 AM on January 5, 2023 [3 favorites]
Some places are working towards it. Being the US, however, it's entirely dependent on the locality. Tulsa was building MUTs like crazy when I lived there and has expanded the network since. Miami has been removing car lanes when reconstructing streets to make room for wider sidewalks and reasonably wide bike lanes.
Even the shitty South Florida suburb I live in has added a bunch of bike gutters in the last several years. I'd never use the one next to my house; they'd have to remove car lanes or at least change the storm water grates for a kind that doesn't seem specifically intended to kill cyclists for that and the road isn't up for reconstruction for at least another decade or two, but it's a start.
But yes, cities should do more. Most roads aren't built by cities, they're built by developers as a condition of getting to build whatever it is they are building. More reasonable standards as to how roads are built would move the needle over time.
posted by wierdo at 5:08 AM on January 5, 2023 [3 favorites]
Also, there is a big difference between resurfacing a street and reconstructing a street. Resurfacing is quick and rarely involves modifying curbs or anything, they just scrape off an inch or two of asphalt off the top and plop down a new layer, often with a single machine doing both tasks al lane at a time.
Once you start doing the things necessary to create real protected bike lanes, adding bulbouts, and otherwise fixing roads to make them seem less like superhighways, you're in much more expensive reconstruction territory. Lanes aren't out of service for mere hours, but weeks. The political pushback from adjoining land users becomes much, much higher than it is when keeping the status quo. Plus, things are a lot more likely to go terribly wrong. Miami just had this experience with an FDOT project in their downtown. It literally took years to finish a mile of work. It "proved" all the worst fears people have, killing lots of businesses (that probably would have gone out of business anyway, but that doesn't matter to the perception). For good reason, politicians see serious risks messing with things in areas where adjoining land users have political influence.
TBH, I would not at all be surprised if FDOT intentionally mismanaged the project into the ground. They have a very strong bias against any infrastructure that doesn't put cars front and center. Projects that help alternative modes are fine in their view, but only to the extent they help move more cars. Flagler Street was not in any sense about moving more cars, but about making things better for pedestrians downtown.
posted by wierdo at 5:20 AM on January 5, 2023 [1 favorite]
Once you start doing the things necessary to create real protected bike lanes, adding bulbouts, and otherwise fixing roads to make them seem less like superhighways, you're in much more expensive reconstruction territory. Lanes aren't out of service for mere hours, but weeks. The political pushback from adjoining land users becomes much, much higher than it is when keeping the status quo. Plus, things are a lot more likely to go terribly wrong. Miami just had this experience with an FDOT project in their downtown. It literally took years to finish a mile of work. It "proved" all the worst fears people have, killing lots of businesses (that probably would have gone out of business anyway, but that doesn't matter to the perception). For good reason, politicians see serious risks messing with things in areas where adjoining land users have political influence.
TBH, I would not at all be surprised if FDOT intentionally mismanaged the project into the ground. They have a very strong bias against any infrastructure that doesn't put cars front and center. Projects that help alternative modes are fine in their view, but only to the extent they help move more cars. Flagler Street was not in any sense about moving more cars, but about making things better for pedestrians downtown.
posted by wierdo at 5:20 AM on January 5, 2023 [1 favorite]
I wonder how much bicycle infrastructure could have been built with $100 billion.
posted by drstrangelove at 5:32 AM on January 5, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by drstrangelove at 5:32 AM on January 5, 2023 [4 favorites]
Some of the loudest voices for more and better public transportation come from the countryside at this point.
A friend from Germany sent a video to me recently about his visit to some tiny village that was about as far from anything as you could get in Germany. It couldn't have had more than 100 people. But while he was filming a bus rolled in. Apparently even that village at the end of a dead-end highway had some kind of regular transit to the outside world, even if it stopped only once per day. That made me think about my own village of 450 people. If you don't own a car here, you're basically screwed, even though at one time they would have had access regular ATSF passenger service (up until the early 70s; now even the RR tracks are long gone.) This is one of the many reasons that leads me to believe I need to start making other plans for my old age as I don't want to be stuck out here, trying to figure out how to get to doctor's appointments 15 miles away at the nearest clinic or for groceries (also 15 miles), etc.
posted by drstrangelove at 5:38 AM on January 5, 2023 [7 favorites]
A friend from Germany sent a video to me recently about his visit to some tiny village that was about as far from anything as you could get in Germany. It couldn't have had more than 100 people. But while he was filming a bus rolled in. Apparently even that village at the end of a dead-end highway had some kind of regular transit to the outside world, even if it stopped only once per day. That made me think about my own village of 450 people. If you don't own a car here, you're basically screwed, even though at one time they would have had access regular ATSF passenger service (up until the early 70s; now even the RR tracks are long gone.) This is one of the many reasons that leads me to believe I need to start making other plans for my old age as I don't want to be stuck out here, trying to figure out how to get to doctor's appointments 15 miles away at the nearest clinic or for groceries (also 15 miles), etc.
posted by drstrangelove at 5:38 AM on January 5, 2023 [7 favorites]
Once you start doing the things necessary to create real protected bike lanes, adding bulbouts, and otherwise fixing roads to make them seem less like superhighways, you're in much more expensive reconstruction territory. Lanes aren't out of service for mere hours, but weeks.For a full redesign, sure, but shifting the car storage lane out to protect bikes or installing concrete planters or bike share stations is much faster. I’m a big fan of the planter boxes since DC’s already used to it from all of the federal buildings and one on each end of a street and maybe the middle on a long block does a great job of telling the rally racers to stay in their lanes.
posted by adamsc at 6:37 AM on January 5, 2023 [1 favorite]
That would be a much more convincing argument if anything was actually being done to address car dependency. Instead "it takes forever" seems to be a reason to not do anything, rather than to have started yesterday.
FWIW here in Cambridge we not only have Boston’s excellent mass transit system, but on the main throughfares the outer lanes have been converted to bus & bike-only lanes. Enforcement is… enh [waggles a splayed hand]. Partly because there is never, ever any street parking spots open here and public garage rates are often $20 for the first hour, $40-50 for 4+ hours. Result is that on any given weekend night the outer lanes become de facto short-term drop-off/pickup parking for bars and takeout along those same throughfares. And this has been the case at least since I first moved here in 2003, long before the outer lanes were repurposed. It’s airport terminal rules, in practice.
So: the city has done what it can in terms of modifying the infrastructure in-place (historical buildings everywhere) and enacting a visciously car-hostile regulatory environment especially for parking, but there’s a deeply entrenched cultural norm at work and those die hard in New England. Also, living in Cambridge generally means you are earning six figures so nearly every non-student resident has the resources to maintain a private car regardless, and most of them do.
That said, I only just moved back here after five terrible years in Dallas and Austin. Austin metro outside the downtown would be nearly impossible to convert, and the greater Dallas-Fort Worth metro isn’t going mass-transit or eBike-friendly without a hydrogen bomb getting involved, as much for cultural reasons as existing infrastructure. It’s also been undergoing explosive growth these past several years as the last sane real estate market in a major US city, so the inertia’s only increasing and I don’t see that changing for a very long time.
posted by Ryvar at 7:16 AM on January 5, 2023 [2 favorites]
FWIW here in Cambridge we not only have Boston’s excellent mass transit system, but on the main throughfares the outer lanes have been converted to bus & bike-only lanes. Enforcement is… enh [waggles a splayed hand]. Partly because there is never, ever any street parking spots open here and public garage rates are often $20 for the first hour, $40-50 for 4+ hours. Result is that on any given weekend night the outer lanes become de facto short-term drop-off/pickup parking for bars and takeout along those same throughfares. And this has been the case at least since I first moved here in 2003, long before the outer lanes were repurposed. It’s airport terminal rules, in practice.
So: the city has done what it can in terms of modifying the infrastructure in-place (historical buildings everywhere) and enacting a visciously car-hostile regulatory environment especially for parking, but there’s a deeply entrenched cultural norm at work and those die hard in New England. Also, living in Cambridge generally means you are earning six figures so nearly every non-student resident has the resources to maintain a private car regardless, and most of them do.
That said, I only just moved back here after five terrible years in Dallas and Austin. Austin metro outside the downtown would be nearly impossible to convert, and the greater Dallas-Fort Worth metro isn’t going mass-transit or eBike-friendly without a hydrogen bomb getting involved, as much for cultural reasons as existing infrastructure. It’s also been undergoing explosive growth these past several years as the last sane real estate market in a major US city, so the inertia’s only increasing and I don’t see that changing for a very long time.
posted by Ryvar at 7:16 AM on January 5, 2023 [2 favorites]
Illinois just did a whole "mission accomplished" PR stunt after sort-of completing the Jane Byrne interchange, a major expressway interchange in downtown Chicago. The damn thing took 10 years and $800 million, and won't change a thing about most folks' commute. Pritzker lauded it as a "climate win" because less congestion will mean less exhaust. But induced demand tells us that even if there is reduced congestion it won't last for more than a few years. The project started in 2013 and was supposed to be completed in 2018 for $535.5 million.
I wonder how many protected bike lanes and how much safe pedestrian infrastructure $800 million could have built.
Meanwhile it's an uphill battle to get IDOT to even consider a bike lane on any of their arterials in Chicago. Usually a pedestrian or cyclist has to die first, and then sustained activist pressure, and then we'll get some garbage half-measure that isn't maintained.
Yes it's expensive, but the money exists we just have to shift it. There's gonna be a reckoning with the funding of traditional car infrastructure anyway as people shift to EVs - it's subsidized by general funds but soooo much of transportation infrastructure is funded by the gas tax. There isn't public appetite for a VMT-style funding structure but we need to think of something soon.
I have to think it's possible to change our cities. I'm spending what little energy I have to get involved with organizations locally because otherwise I will fall into the pits of despair.
posted by misskaz at 7:31 AM on January 5, 2023 [5 favorites]
I wonder how many protected bike lanes and how much safe pedestrian infrastructure $800 million could have built.
Meanwhile it's an uphill battle to get IDOT to even consider a bike lane on any of their arterials in Chicago. Usually a pedestrian or cyclist has to die first, and then sustained activist pressure, and then we'll get some garbage half-measure that isn't maintained.
Yes it's expensive, but the money exists we just have to shift it. There's gonna be a reckoning with the funding of traditional car infrastructure anyway as people shift to EVs - it's subsidized by general funds but soooo much of transportation infrastructure is funded by the gas tax. There isn't public appetite for a VMT-style funding structure but we need to think of something soon.
I have to think it's possible to change our cities. I'm spending what little energy I have to get involved with organizations locally because otherwise I will fall into the pits of despair.
posted by misskaz at 7:31 AM on January 5, 2023 [5 favorites]
Speaking of Chicago, folks are going through hell to get anyone to care about the dangerous crossings of DuSable Lake Shore Drive, the high speed thoroughfare that scars Chicago's lakefront. People just trying to use the sidewalk during their mandated crossing time are met with violence, so sorry I don't think electric vehicles will change this. They exist to save the automotive/tire/extractive industries, not the planet, and certainly not people's lives.
posted by Brainstorming Time! at 7:57 AM on January 5, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by Brainstorming Time! at 7:57 AM on January 5, 2023 [1 favorite]
I walked past a new truck the other day and noticed a tiny camera in the (enormous) front grille. Turns out GM is offering front facing cameras on some of their trucks because THE VEHICLE IS TOO DAMN BIG TO SEE OUT THE WINDOWS. Damning >:(
posted by Popular Ethics at 7:59 AM on January 5, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by Popular Ethics at 7:59 AM on January 5, 2023 [3 favorites]
isn’t going mass-transit or eBike-friendly without a hydrogen bomb getting involved
My old boss while we were doing district planning in Somerville used to pine for an earthquake (especially for McGrath hwy)..."It says every 100 years, we're overdue, gdmit!".
On a somber note, I really loved my bike commute for a time here in Portland (ME), but after Covid it was just too much. Drivers went from carelessly dangerous to aggressively homicidal. My wife, who's a little puritanical thinks it's the CBD products, but I think it's the social media/politics.
Either way, I can read an actuarial table. I have kids. I'm not going to bike for now.
posted by Reasonably Everything Happens at 8:00 AM on January 5, 2023 [3 favorites]
My old boss while we were doing district planning in Somerville used to pine for an earthquake (especially for McGrath hwy)..."It says every 100 years, we're overdue, gdmit!".
On a somber note, I really loved my bike commute for a time here in Portland (ME), but after Covid it was just too much. Drivers went from carelessly dangerous to aggressively homicidal. My wife, who's a little puritanical thinks it's the CBD products, but I think it's the social media/politics.
Either way, I can read an actuarial table. I have kids. I'm not going to bike for now.
posted by Reasonably Everything Happens at 8:00 AM on January 5, 2023 [3 favorites]
For the record, GM sold 16,108 Bolt EV's in 2022, and a total of 72 Hummer EVs.
And this right here is why Tesla is a good company, even if you hate Elon Musk. 16k from a major manufacturer is borderline embarrassing. Tesla Model 3 sold more every month in the US, and the Model Y sold almost twice as much every month in the US.
Also front facing cameras have been available on luxury vehicles for like a decade.
posted by The_Vegetables at 8:01 AM on January 5, 2023 [2 favorites]
And this right here is why Tesla is a good company, even if you hate Elon Musk. 16k from a major manufacturer is borderline embarrassing. Tesla Model 3 sold more every month in the US, and the Model Y sold almost twice as much every month in the US.
Also front facing cameras have been available on luxury vehicles for like a decade.
posted by The_Vegetables at 8:01 AM on January 5, 2023 [2 favorites]
That would mean that bicycling in the US is still somewhat more dangerous per-passenger-mile than traveling by car, even after excluding those collisions.
Again, biking is insanely dangerous in the US, and those stats only compare those brave enough to attempt it, so they should not be compared to the average population of drivers. Also, comparing on a per-mile basis implies that all those miles driven are of-value, and thus isn't a great statistic. It also implies that longer trips on a per-person basis would make everyone even safer, so hell yeah your grocery store should be 30 miles from your home.
On a per-trip basis would be more valuable, but that data isn't really available.
posted by The_Vegetables at 8:07 AM on January 5, 2023 [1 favorite]
Again, biking is insanely dangerous in the US, and those stats only compare those brave enough to attempt it, so they should not be compared to the average population of drivers. Also, comparing on a per-mile basis implies that all those miles driven are of-value, and thus isn't a great statistic. It also implies that longer trips on a per-person basis would make everyone even safer, so hell yeah your grocery store should be 30 miles from your home.
On a per-trip basis would be more valuable, but that data isn't really available.
posted by The_Vegetables at 8:07 AM on January 5, 2023 [1 favorite]
Also, anyone who sees those stats should immediately fund biking improvements to the detriment of driving since biking is also done by literal 5 year olds, but the US political apparatus is extremely dumb.
posted by The_Vegetables at 8:11 AM on January 5, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by The_Vegetables at 8:11 AM on January 5, 2023 [3 favorites]
My last car, a Nissan Rogue, lasted 11 years and probably would have lasted longer, but we're at a point in time when the incentives (state, fed) to buy EV offsets the extra cost of the car. I looked at most of the available EVs in my price range and I passed on Toyota since they were unobtainium and Toyota was, at the time, very close to meeting their limit of allowable federal rebates. Subaru has the exact same car, but it was also unobtanium and the nearest Subaru dealer owner is a total asshole and I refuse to give him another penny (TBF most other car dealer owners may also be total assholes, but I'm ignorant of that). I hate the Tesla ergonomics and build quality (my brother's Tesla is not in good shape for its age). The Ionic 5 was a nice enough car, but looking it over it has many of the same compromises that my spouse's Huyndai has and have not held up particularly well.
I tried out the Ford Mustang Mach E and holy shit is it a nice car. It is easily the nicest car I have ever driven by a long shot, and my Rogue was very nice. I bought one and it's been great. The charging infrastructure is good in my town to the point that in warmer weather, I only have to charge it every 3 weeks or so because my pattern of shopping usually involves going to places that have free slow chargers that almost, but not quite, compensate for the usage of the trip to that location. In colder months, Ford recommended keeping it plugged in, so that's what I do. As for charging with fossil fuel generated power, I have solar panels so there's that.
posted by plinth at 9:14 AM on January 5, 2023 [1 favorite]
I tried out the Ford Mustang Mach E and holy shit is it a nice car. It is easily the nicest car I have ever driven by a long shot, and my Rogue was very nice. I bought one and it's been great. The charging infrastructure is good in my town to the point that in warmer weather, I only have to charge it every 3 weeks or so because my pattern of shopping usually involves going to places that have free slow chargers that almost, but not quite, compensate for the usage of the trip to that location. In colder months, Ford recommended keeping it plugged in, so that's what I do. As for charging with fossil fuel generated power, I have solar panels so there's that.
posted by plinth at 9:14 AM on January 5, 2023 [1 favorite]
Chicago was where I was nearly killed once by a driver. I was with my then-young family (me, my wife and two small children) and we were waiting for the walk signal. When it changed we started across only to nearly be run over by a moron in a Lincoln Navigator (this was far enough back when it was one of the trendiest new vehicles at the time.) When I say "nearly" I mean inches. Then he and his passenger start screaming expletives out of their windows at us-- just really vile stuff and, for good measure, he gunned the engine and lunged at us, this time very nearly hitting my wife. Did I mention that it had snowed and the road was slick as well, so there was only so fast that we could move?
Others have told me that it's a good place to get around on foot but that experience, combined with the overall extreme aggressive nature of the motorists, left enough of a foul taste that I've never gone back and never plan to.
posted by drstrangelove at 9:23 AM on January 5, 2023 [1 favorite]
Others have told me that it's a good place to get around on foot but that experience, combined with the overall extreme aggressive nature of the motorists, left enough of a foul taste that I've never gone back and never plan to.
posted by drstrangelove at 9:23 AM on January 5, 2023 [1 favorite]
As for charging with fossil fuel generated power, I have solar panels so there's that.
So it's at home during the day to charge?
posted by drstrangelove at 9:25 AM on January 5, 2023
So it's at home during the day to charge?
posted by drstrangelove at 9:25 AM on January 5, 2023
People just trying to use the sidewalk during their mandated crossing time are met with violence,
Well okay, that link is not people "just trying to use the crosswalk," it's a planned protest where they are blocking it. Not that that justifies the behavior of the drivers or the cops, but let's not be dishonest about what's represented there.
That said:
Chicago was where I was nearly killed once by a driver.
As a 20 year resident I can no longer count the number of close calls I've had as a pedestrian in this fucking city. Every trip anywhere (I am always on foot for at least a bit--I don't drive at all) is a goddamn Running Man episode. Almost every single time the driver is on their motherfucking phone.
And look, I have also been a passenger in a car that had a close call with a pedestrian, and fully see how it happened, because in addition to drivers being shitbricks and cars being deathtanks, pedestrians are also real goddamn stupid sometimes too. Don't sprint out from behind a parked car nowhere near a crosswalk! I KNOW it's cold and there's two blocks to the next crosswalk. I don't CARE. In this city we are cold, fucking deal with it or move somewhere normal. (Ultimately my sympathies are always with the tiny, stupid, soft fleshy idiot who's doing something ridiculous in the road, not the person encased firmly in metal. But still.)
Cars and road design absolutely need to be part of any solution here but there is very much a factor of people need to stop being so terrible at everything all the time. This has been blast hardcheese, calling in from before morning coffee.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 9:56 AM on January 5, 2023 [2 favorites]
Well okay, that link is not people "just trying to use the crosswalk," it's a planned protest where they are blocking it. Not that that justifies the behavior of the drivers or the cops, but let's not be dishonest about what's represented there.
That said:
Chicago was where I was nearly killed once by a driver.
As a 20 year resident I can no longer count the number of close calls I've had as a pedestrian in this fucking city. Every trip anywhere (I am always on foot for at least a bit--I don't drive at all) is a goddamn Running Man episode. Almost every single time the driver is on their motherfucking phone.
And look, I have also been a passenger in a car that had a close call with a pedestrian, and fully see how it happened, because in addition to drivers being shitbricks and cars being deathtanks, pedestrians are also real goddamn stupid sometimes too. Don't sprint out from behind a parked car nowhere near a crosswalk! I KNOW it's cold and there's two blocks to the next crosswalk. I don't CARE. In this city we are cold, fucking deal with it or move somewhere normal. (Ultimately my sympathies are always with the tiny, stupid, soft fleshy idiot who's doing something ridiculous in the road, not the person encased firmly in metal. But still.)
Cars and road design absolutely need to be part of any solution here but there is very much a factor of people need to stop being so terrible at everything all the time. This has been blast hardcheese, calling in from before morning coffee.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 9:56 AM on January 5, 2023 [2 favorites]
This article has numbers through Q3 2022 for EV sales . Tesla remains the market leader with >60% of all sales, but the numbers are rising fast for other makers. The problem for other manufacturers is that the dealers want to sell you the most expensive car possible and the Nissan Leaf and Chevy Bolt are not priorities for them as they don’t make a lot of money off them. On top of the tax credit for purchasing an electric vehicle we should put an extra carbon tax on the sale of gas powered vehicles.
posted by interogative mood at 10:15 AM on January 5, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by interogative mood at 10:15 AM on January 5, 2023 [2 favorites]
Well okay, that link is not people "just trying to use the crosswalk," it's a planned protest where they are blocking it. Not that that justifies the behavior of the drivers or the cops, but let's not be dishonest about what's represented there.
Hi, I participated in one of these events, and no one is BLOCKING the crosswalk. It's a protest, sort of, but it's a protest that involves solely crossing or existing in the crosswalk during the walk signal. That's it. No one is blocking it when drivers have a green light to proceed - the point is that at that intersection, drivers just keep going through the intersection even after they have a red light. This behavior literally killed someone last year.
posted by misskaz at 10:15 AM on January 5, 2023 [18 favorites]
Hi, I participated in one of these events, and no one is BLOCKING the crosswalk. It's a protest, sort of, but it's a protest that involves solely crossing or existing in the crosswalk during the walk signal. That's it. No one is blocking it when drivers have a green light to proceed - the point is that at that intersection, drivers just keep going through the intersection even after they have a red light. This behavior literally killed someone last year.
posted by misskaz at 10:15 AM on January 5, 2023 [18 favorites]
This article has numbers through Q3 2022 for EV sales . Tesla remains the market leader with >60% of all sales, but the numbers are rising fast for other makers.
Tesla's Models Y and 3 currently account for the top ~350K sales, with the Ford Mustang Mach-E a distant third with ~28K...but Ford says it's planning to ramp up production of electric vehicles to 600K/yr by the end of 2023. If they manage that (a significant "if"), Tesla may be only months away from no longer being the biggest-selling EV maker.
posted by The Tensor at 10:51 AM on January 5, 2023 [4 favorites]
Tesla's Models Y and 3 currently account for the top ~350K sales, with the Ford Mustang Mach-E a distant third with ~28K...but Ford says it's planning to ramp up production of electric vehicles to 600K/yr by the end of 2023. If they manage that (a significant "if"), Tesla may be only months away from no longer being the biggest-selling EV maker.
posted by The Tensor at 10:51 AM on January 5, 2023 [4 favorites]
Also, the numbers above are only for the US market, which makes up a small portion of worldwide BEV sales. Globally, Tesla is still the biggest but their market share is only 18% rather than 68%.
Many of the big manufacturers are pushing most of their EVs to Europe or elsewhere. For example, VW Group sold over 100,000 BEVs per quarter in the first half of 2022 (and a similar number in 2021), but the vast majority of those were not in the US.
(Source for global sales data.)
posted by mbrubeck at 11:04 AM on January 5, 2023 [2 favorites]
Many of the big manufacturers are pushing most of their EVs to Europe or elsewhere. For example, VW Group sold over 100,000 BEVs per quarter in the first half of 2022 (and a similar number in 2021), but the vast majority of those were not in the US.
(Source for global sales data.)
posted by mbrubeck at 11:04 AM on January 5, 2023 [2 favorites]
The electric car as they are built today are meant to save the automobile industry, not the planet. They’re trying to keep their business alive (along with the businesses of making massive roads, parking garages, enabling the viability of big box retailer business, suburban sprawl, etc).
Where we live we don’t have our own driveway (if our house was on the other end of the row, where we would be the only people crossing the sidewalk to our car would be, then maybe we’d try it), so an electric car isn’t immediately feasible, so I’ve not yet gone and bought a used VW Group electric (their Mii / Citigo / Up! Model is a perfect city car) or Honda E. Those are the ideal kind of car for like 90% of the drivers around here*, and of course VW Group stopped making most of them since they were too cheap to make any money on.
The Aptera is a car (technically a three whiled motorcycle) that went for optimal electric car perform and then they realized they made it so efficient they could slap a few solar panels on it and it could top up the battery on a sunny day. If they had a timeline for when they’d be available over here, I’d be putting down my deposit already.
* Northern Ireland has terrible car infrastructure and worse everything else. Which is a shame because they built the Dutch cycle network before the Dutch did as an experiment in the 70s but some how got distracted by other things at the time.
posted by mrzarquon at 12:40 PM on January 5, 2023 [4 favorites]
Where we live we don’t have our own driveway (if our house was on the other end of the row, where we would be the only people crossing the sidewalk to our car would be, then maybe we’d try it), so an electric car isn’t immediately feasible, so I’ve not yet gone and bought a used VW Group electric (their Mii / Citigo / Up! Model is a perfect city car) or Honda E. Those are the ideal kind of car for like 90% of the drivers around here*, and of course VW Group stopped making most of them since they were too cheap to make any money on.
The Aptera is a car (technically a three whiled motorcycle) that went for optimal electric car perform and then they realized they made it so efficient they could slap a few solar panels on it and it could top up the battery on a sunny day. If they had a timeline for when they’d be available over here, I’d be putting down my deposit already.
* Northern Ireland has terrible car infrastructure and worse everything else. Which is a shame because they built the Dutch cycle network before the Dutch did as an experiment in the 70s but some how got distracted by other things at the time.
posted by mrzarquon at 12:40 PM on January 5, 2023 [4 favorites]
Also, the numbers above are only for the US market, which makes up a small portion of worldwide BEV sales.
That link includes both plug in hybrids and battery-only vehicles, and most plug-in hybrids have extremely limited range on just the battery.
posted by The_Vegetables at 1:04 PM on January 5, 2023
Yeah. To clarify, all the numbers in my comment (18% global market share for Tesla; VV Group sales of 100,000 vehicles/quarter) were counting BEVs only and excluding PHEVs.
posted by mbrubeck at 1:06 PM on January 5, 2023
posted by mbrubeck at 1:06 PM on January 5, 2023
In my experience renting Tesla's while traveling recently you really don't need to have a drive way with a charger. The level 3 superchargers are fast enough and the range is far enough that its 15-30 minutes once a week to top it up for ordinary few miles a day of driving. If you can combine charging with grocery store trip or a coffee/bathroom stop it is fine. Of course the one time I had to charge it when it was close to the freezing point of water; it took much longer but I gather that the trick there is to find a heated parking garage and not try to do it outside.
posted by interogative mood at 1:25 PM on January 5, 2023
posted by interogative mood at 1:25 PM on January 5, 2023
In my experience renting Tesla's while traveling recently you really don't need to have a drive way with a charger.
If there’s adequate charging infrastructure yes, the problem is in our area there are 13 spaces (not stations, like physical plugs) to park and charge in our town in total and only a single fast charge DC port. If we had a Tesla, we could drive 30 minutes into Belfast to use the only super charger in all in Northern Ireland.
This stupid lack of infrastructure fuels the range anxiety that makes people want a car with a 240 mile range (which is the distance to drive almost the entire length of the island). To get that range, you need more batteries. More batteries means more weight which means bigger motors and then more batteries to compensate for the drain of the larger motors.
N. Ireland’s infrastructure problems in general are plagued by lack of real systems thinking. No one drives electric cars because there’s no charging stations and most people don’t live somewhere they can charge at home easily -> So no reason to build charging stations or keep them operational, since there’s no _real_ demand. Same problems with bikes: no one rides bikes here except for leisure because the bike infrastructure is half baked and not complete -> don’t bother connecting these two bike corridors because no one is using them (no one is using them because no one wants to ride their bike for a mile in an unprotected highway side lane as their “connection”, etc).
posted by mrzarquon at 2:22 PM on January 5, 2023 [3 favorites]
If there’s adequate charging infrastructure yes, the problem is in our area there are 13 spaces (not stations, like physical plugs) to park and charge in our town in total and only a single fast charge DC port. If we had a Tesla, we could drive 30 minutes into Belfast to use the only super charger in all in Northern Ireland.
This stupid lack of infrastructure fuels the range anxiety that makes people want a car with a 240 mile range (which is the distance to drive almost the entire length of the island). To get that range, you need more batteries. More batteries means more weight which means bigger motors and then more batteries to compensate for the drain of the larger motors.
N. Ireland’s infrastructure problems in general are plagued by lack of real systems thinking. No one drives electric cars because there’s no charging stations and most people don’t live somewhere they can charge at home easily -> So no reason to build charging stations or keep them operational, since there’s no _real_ demand. Same problems with bikes: no one rides bikes here except for leisure because the bike infrastructure is half baked and not complete -> don’t bother connecting these two bike corridors because no one is using them (no one is using them because no one wants to ride their bike for a mile in an unprotected highway side lane as their “connection”, etc).
posted by mrzarquon at 2:22 PM on January 5, 2023 [3 favorites]
Apologies, misskaz, that was not apparent from the linked video (in which neither lights nor signals are visible, just people in the crosswalks with signs who don't appear to actually be...crossing). And not having ever been to those protests, I did not know the plan was otherwise.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 2:26 PM on January 5, 2023
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 2:26 PM on January 5, 2023
It's all good, that wasn't the best video of it. Here's a video I took before the first protest started which helps you get a feel for how bad it is because you can clearly see the walk signal. The pedestrian signal phase is only 45 seconds long to cross 9 lanes, which is short even if you don't have to wait for 20 of those seconds for drivers to finish blowing the red light. It's a big intersection, but we're not just talking about drivers who entered when it was green and unexpectedly got caught. Drivers just keep going through the red light, and even worse, drivers who have a left-turn-only lane and green arrow use that lane to instead go straight through the red -- which is what killed a cyclist legally in the crosswalk last year.
posted by misskaz at 2:35 PM on January 5, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by misskaz at 2:35 PM on January 5, 2023 [5 favorites]
People need to stop going places all the time, but people can't handle being told not to do something.
posted by GoblinHoney at 4:57 PM on January 5, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by GoblinHoney at 4:57 PM on January 5, 2023 [2 favorites]
Way upthread but I guarantee that more F150s are used as actual work trucks than SUVs are, and it's weird how many people decided that was a necessary quibble. The city/suburban work truck or van is one of the obvious and best uses for an EV and we need them stat. This is one of the few categories of light vehicle and use that can't really be filled by public transit.
As soon as there's one on the market that's a reasonable (not $bigtruck) size at the right price point I think we'll see a ton of these on the streets. I'm personally waiting for something the size of the old Ranger or Takoma to pull the trigger.
posted by aspersioncast at 4:49 AM on January 6, 2023 [3 favorites]
As soon as there's one on the market that's a reasonable (not $bigtruck) size at the right price point I think we'll see a ton of these on the streets. I'm personally waiting for something the size of the old Ranger or Takoma to pull the trigger.
posted by aspersioncast at 4:49 AM on January 6, 2023 [3 favorites]
The city/suburban work truck or van is one of the obvious and best uses for an EV and we need them stat.
Amazon vans you mean, made by Rivan? I think they are still way too expensive for your average contractor, but Amazon's ability to make large bulk orders should drive the price down. Wait just a few more years.
posted by The_Vegetables at 8:02 AM on January 6, 2023
Amazon vans you mean, made by Rivan? I think they are still way too expensive for your average contractor, but Amazon's ability to make large bulk orders should drive the price down. Wait just a few more years.
posted by The_Vegetables at 8:02 AM on January 6, 2023
The city/suburban work truck or van is one of the obvious and best uses for an EV and we need them stat
If you remember the brouhaha around Louis De Joy's plan to replace the USPS fleet with gas guzzlers, you'll be happy to know that the Biden administration pushed him to reconsider, and the fleet will now go EV:
If you remember the brouhaha around Louis De Joy's plan to replace the USPS fleet with gas guzzlers, you'll be happy to know that the Biden administration pushed him to reconsider, and the fleet will now go EV:
The Postal Service anticipates at least 60,000 Next Generation Delivery Vehicles (NGDV), of which at least 75% (45,000) will be battery electric. As part of this plan, a total of 21,000 additional commercial off-the-shelf (COTS) vehicles are also expected to be battery electric, depending on market availability and operational feasibility. The Postal Service also anticipates including internal combustion vehicles necessary to meet immediate vehicle replacement needs.posted by Dashy at 8:32 AM on January 6, 2023 [6 favorites]
As soon as there's one on the market that's a reasonable (not $bigtruck) size at the right price point I think we'll see a ton of these on the streets. I'm personally waiting for something the size of the old Ranger or Takoma to pull the trigger.
In the 90s, I owned a Tacoma and my Dad had a Ranger and they were just about perfect vehicles in terms of my ideas of form/function. I’d absolutely love a small EV pickup modeled on the old Ranger.
posted by darkstar at 7:05 AM on January 7, 2023 [3 favorites]
In the 90s, I owned a Tacoma and my Dad had a Ranger and they were just about perfect vehicles in terms of my ideas of form/function. I’d absolutely love a small EV pickup modeled on the old Ranger.
posted by darkstar at 7:05 AM on January 7, 2023 [3 favorites]
Earlier this week I was walking home and noticed a Land Rover “Defender” parked on the street. It made me laugh because that grill is way more of an “attacker” if you ask me. This isn’t even a big SUV but the name reflects how a lot of drivers feel that they need to be protected from other cars. 2-6 houses on my block are undergoing renovation for the past few years so I notice a lot of contractors’ vehicles parked on my street. Always huge, always taking up space (never paying for permits to park), and always driven by one man. Rarely have I seen large equipment or tools being transported by there oversized vehicles, even though they are the only type of people I see justifying that size of vehicle in a city. I often think “this large of vehicles should not be allowed into the city.”
Europe and Asia have so many cool looking small more efficient cars, many made by manufacturers that sell in the US. Is it that hard to sell some city cars in the US? I know they don’t think there’s a large market—but surely there is some kind of market? Is this like how all companies want to only sell their “luxury” products so they don’t bother selling the more affordable option?
Glad/sad to see so many fellow Chicago bicyclists/pedestrians chiming in. For a city with some of the most complete public transportation in the US we sure are a mess. We’ve already had at least 2 pedestrian fatalities the first week of 2023.
posted by Bunglegirl at 9:59 PM on January 7, 2023 [4 favorites]
Europe and Asia have so many cool looking small more efficient cars, many made by manufacturers that sell in the US. Is it that hard to sell some city cars in the US? I know they don’t think there’s a large market—but surely there is some kind of market? Is this like how all companies want to only sell their “luxury” products so they don’t bother selling the more affordable option?
Glad/sad to see so many fellow Chicago bicyclists/pedestrians chiming in. For a city with some of the most complete public transportation in the US we sure are a mess. We’ve already had at least 2 pedestrian fatalities the first week of 2023.
posted by Bunglegirl at 9:59 PM on January 7, 2023 [4 favorites]
[The Land Rover Defender] isn’t even a big SUV...
Wow, the US really is a different perspective. Even the smallest Defender is more than two tons, four and a half metres long, and two metres wide. Anything but the very smallest version is over five metres in length. The Defender is not a small vehicle.
posted by Dysk at 11:45 PM on January 7, 2023 [4 favorites]
Wow, the US really is a different perspective. Even the smallest Defender is more than two tons, four and a half metres long, and two metres wide. Anything but the very smallest version is over five metres in length. The Defender is not a small vehicle.
posted by Dysk at 11:45 PM on January 7, 2023 [4 favorites]
I’d absolutely love a small EV pickup modeled on the old Ranger.
Give Ford a few years, and they'll have an EV Maverick. They probably won't make a two-door version, though.
posted by box at 5:25 AM on January 8, 2023 [1 favorite]
Give Ford a few years, and they'll have an EV Maverick. They probably won't make a two-door version, though.
posted by box at 5:25 AM on January 8, 2023 [1 favorite]
Wow, the US really is a different perspective.
Land Rover Defender 90 (the 3-Door model) ranks #22 (last) in overall length among US "Midsize [Premium] SUV" vehicles (as classified by JD Power for model year 2022), while the 110 (5-door) is #5. #1 is the Rivian R1S. The Defender 90 ranks #5 in curb weight (Rivian is #1) while the 110 is #3. Then there are the two segments of JD Power "Large [Premium] SUV" above all of the midsize ones, which are probably mostly heavier and/or longer, and which together comprise 30 or so models. American likes big trucks.
posted by axiom at 10:03 PM on January 11, 2023
Land Rover Defender 90 (the 3-Door model) ranks #22 (last) in overall length among US "Midsize [Premium] SUV" vehicles (as classified by JD Power for model year 2022), while the 110 (5-door) is #5. #1 is the Rivian R1S. The Defender 90 ranks #5 in curb weight (Rivian is #1) while the 110 is #3. Then there are the two segments of JD Power "Large [Premium] SUV" above all of the midsize ones, which are probably mostly heavier and/or longer, and which together comprise 30 or so models. American likes big trucks.
posted by axiom at 10:03 PM on January 11, 2023
'Big, bigger, biggest' doesn't mean the initial 'big' is actually small.
posted by Dysk at 2:19 AM on January 12, 2023
posted by Dysk at 2:19 AM on January 12, 2023
6 houses on my block are undergoing renovation for the past few years so I notice a lot of contractors’ vehicles parked on my street. Always huge, always taking up space (never paying for permits to park), and always driven by one man. Rarely have I seen large equipment or tools being transported by there oversized vehicles, even though they are the only type of people I see justifying that size of vehicle in a city.This has been especially noticeable the last few jobs we’ve had done on our house. The plumbers use vans - cost less, better mileage, their stuff doesn’t get stolen. Complete HVAC replacement, one guy in a van with all of the tools and the actual equipment arriving in an old 90s style pickup half the size of the kind I see people commuting to office jobs in. Same story, they don’t want to pay for more truck so they can then pay for more gas.
The only one who was a white man was a guy from West Virginia who doesn’t like wasting money. I no don’t know how we change the culture but making the users bear the costs seems kind a good starting point.
posted by adamsc at 6:39 AM on January 12, 2023 [2 favorites]
I remember working with a construction company in the 90s and the guys would make fun of the supervisor for driving a Geo Metro instead of a giant pickup. He said, they pay me 30 cents a mile (or whatever it was in 1992) to drive from site to site, I'm making bank on this.
posted by octothorpe at 9:31 AM on January 12, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by octothorpe at 9:31 AM on January 12, 2023 [5 favorites]
Hell, we had our gutters cleaned a couple weeks ago and the dudes rolled up in 20-year-old Toyota Corolla with the ladders strapped to the roof.
posted by misskaz at 8:46 AM on January 14, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by misskaz at 8:46 AM on January 14, 2023 [5 favorites]
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