#OpenDnD
January 9, 2023 10:11 AM Subscribe
A draft of the new Dungeons & Dragons Open Gaming License 1.1 leaked, and the reactions from players and creators who have operated under the OGL 1.0 for nearly twenty years has been dark and angry. Wizards of the Coast (WOTC), which is now owned by Hasbro (who, depsite D&D making over $1Billion last year, regarded it as "under-monetized"), had been working on an updated version without fan input for some time. Gizmodo reporter Linda Codega goes into the details that upend years of fan particiption in 5th Edition.
Highlights include:
Reactions from the community have been dismayed, to say the least. The hashtag #OpenDnD (Nitter backup) was swiftly created as a rallying point, along with a separate website for literature including a media kit and a history of the Open Gaming License. Until the draft has been officially published or verified (outside of Ritter's disclosure), the future of fan-created content is not yet clear.
Highlights include:
The original OGL granted “perpetual, worldwide, non-exclusive license” to the Open Game Content (commonly called the System Resource Document) and directed that licensees “may use any authorized version of this License to copy, modify and distribute any Open Game Content originally distributed under any version of this License.” But the updated OGL says that “this agreement is…an update to the previously available OGL 1.0(a), which is no longer an authorized license agreement."Note that the OGL1.0 was perpetual (but not irrevocable), and many third-party creator companies such as Paizo, AlchemyRPG, Kobold Press, Hit Point Press, The Griffon’s Saddlebag, DMDave, Loot Tavern, and many more have sprung up or experienced significant growth because of the terms of OGL 1.0a.
"If, and only if, You are generating a significant amount of money (over $750,000 per year across all Licensed Works) from Your Licensed Works, The revenue You make from Your Licensed Works in excess of $750,000 in a single calendar year is considered “Qualifying Revenue” and You are responsible for paying Us 20% or 25% of that Qualifying Revenue.”However, the 750K is gross revenue, not net revenue, and creates a compliance headache. So far, the lower 20% percentage apparently applies only to projects on Kickstarter, which the draft designates as "Our preferred crowdfunding platform". Jon Ritter, Director of Games at Kickstarter, admitted on Twitter (Nitter backup) that WOTC had approached Kickstarter privately to negotiate this deal.
But the new OGL states that the Commercial Agreement “covers all commercial uses, whether they’re profitable or not.” So if you go into the red on a Kickstarter that earned $800K in backing money, you will still owe Wizards of the Coast, regardless of the fact that you did not profit from your venture.But the part that affects every fan, regardless of the money earned, is the new restrictions on how fans can distribute their created work vs. how WOTC will distribute it:
Creators will also be required to use a specific badge in order to publicly and obviously identify their work as covered by the updated OGL, and they will have to give WotC a copy of the publication. The early draft suggests that many of these processes will be handled through the company’s official digital toolset, D&D Beyond... Wizards will have a “nonexclusive, perpetual, irrevocable, worldwide, sub-licensable, royalty-free license to use that content for any purpose.”Or, as intellectual property lawyer Noah Downs puts it in his write-up on Medium: " WotC will receive a perpetual, irrevocable right to use your Works, and to allow others to use your Works, without additional payment to you. This would allow WotC to publish these Works in places you would not be allowed to, and to allow others to do the same."
Reactions from the community have been dismayed, to say the least. The hashtag #OpenDnD (Nitter backup) was swiftly created as a rallying point, along with a separate website for literature including a media kit and a history of the Open Gaming License. Until the draft has been officially published or verified (outside of Ritter's disclosure), the future of fan-created content is not yet clear.
Thanks for the interesting post -- I admit I haven't read all the links yet, but maybe someone who is better acquainted with D&D can answer a question for me. This change sort of boggles my mind, because it's totally unclear to me what value the D&D brand actually currently brings to players. I think of D&D as an early entry in a loose cultural movement about small group storytelling and creativity through role playing -- D&D seems like a tent pole, but the practice of role playing as it's done in living rooms and on the internet seems to me as an outsider... pretty divorced from dungeons and dragons as a brand. If Hasbro tightens their fist, won't the flexibility of the scene cause gamers to all slip through their fingers? Can somebody who knows more than me tell me their opinion about how bad of a move this is from Hasbro?
posted by Rinku at 10:22 AM on January 9, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by Rinku at 10:22 AM on January 9, 2023 [5 favorites]
They will be SHOCKED at how fast I think many players will just move to a new TTRPG. It's funny, sorta. In a tragic way.
(I'm literally drinking out of my Gnome Druid mug my DM made me, it has our party slogan on the bottom, so it's not like I want that solution but...)
posted by wellifyouinsist at 10:23 AM on January 9, 2023 [12 favorites]
(I'm literally drinking out of my Gnome Druid mug my DM made me, it has our party slogan on the bottom, so it's not like I want that solution but...)
posted by wellifyouinsist at 10:23 AM on January 9, 2023 [12 favorites]
Up until the last year or so, my roleplaying was all custom rules and a DM centered experience. Lately, I've been playing online with my friends on roll20.net. So now the D&D rules that I ignored for the last couple of decades make my roleplaying experience possible. I don't really like this, but it seems the only way forward.
posted by Quonab at 10:29 AM on January 9, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by Quonab at 10:29 AM on January 9, 2023 [1 favorite]
does the new license threaten Pathfinder 1e and 2e? Could it drive Paizo out of business? Roll20? Kobold Press? Critical Role?
The OGL has been the subject of much discussion on Discord servers I frequent. Among the opinions expressed is that bigger names will be able to negotiate a modified license, but who knows?
The market for D&D products is larger than WotC is able or willing to produce, or there wouldn't be a market for third-party products at all. This OGL threatens to choke off that market. Why would creators make D&D products if the have to fork over the revenue and ownership of their creation to Hasbro, Wizards' corporate parent?
D&D also benefits from a (somewhat unprecedented) perception that D&D is cool. That perception depends on the goodwill of its players, and can disappear in favor of other systems faster than you can say "TSR."
I have also seen speculation that this OGL is about positioning WotC/D&D Beyond to dominate the online content market. But do people really prefer playing D&D online to around a table? My own anecdotal experience is that no one at my Friendly Local Game Store uses the online system we set up during the pandemic now that we can game at the store again, despite the infrastructure till being there.
posted by Gelatin at 10:30 AM on January 9, 2023 [2 favorites]
The OGL has been the subject of much discussion on Discord servers I frequent. Among the opinions expressed is that bigger names will be able to negotiate a modified license, but who knows?
The market for D&D products is larger than WotC is able or willing to produce, or there wouldn't be a market for third-party products at all. This OGL threatens to choke off that market. Why would creators make D&D products if the have to fork over the revenue and ownership of their creation to Hasbro, Wizards' corporate parent?
D&D also benefits from a (somewhat unprecedented) perception that D&D is cool. That perception depends on the goodwill of its players, and can disappear in favor of other systems faster than you can say "TSR."
I have also seen speculation that this OGL is about positioning WotC/D&D Beyond to dominate the online content market. But do people really prefer playing D&D online to around a table? My own anecdotal experience is that no one at my Friendly Local Game Store uses the online system we set up during the pandemic now that we can game at the store again, despite the infrastructure till being there.
posted by Gelatin at 10:30 AM on January 9, 2023 [2 favorites]
I'm someone who has been role playing for over forty years, vaguely recalls the strife of the TSR years and has read several histories on the topic. The short answer to the question Would a company actually and willingly destroy the community that consumes it? is a resounding "Yes!". And not just any company, but this IP has a history of exactly that sort of behavior.
Which was exactly why the original OGL was written.
I have only one nit to pick with this excellent post and summary. It states:
Note that the OGL1.0 was perpetual (but not irrevocable),
My lay-persons understanding is that the intent was for it to be irrevocable, but that in the twenty-three years since it's publication case law in other situations has found that the term perpetual - which was understood by the drafters at the time to include irrevocable - does not necessarily need to be tied to irrevocable. Which means that whether or not it can be revoked is only resolvable through legal cases. It will, of course, be Hasbro/WOTC's position that it can be revoked, but them simply saying so and waving in the general direction of plausibly but not definitively related cases does not make it so.
I'm beyond pissed on behalf of all the visionary, creative people who have built their livelihood in supporting this game. It is their efforts that have built D&D to the phenomenon it is today, and they shouldn't have to be forced to court just to preserve rights that were already explicitly and repeatedly given to them and then re-affirmed by this very company when questioned.
It's especially ironic that this is the pure definition of "Lawful Evil" at a time when the game designers have been actively trying to reduce and remove the alignment system from the game. And, to be clear, I blame this entirely on corporate leadership and whoever leaked this ahead of whatever they planned for prepared announcements is a hero of the game.
posted by meinvt at 10:31 AM on January 9, 2023 [35 favorites]
Which was exactly why the original OGL was written.
I have only one nit to pick with this excellent post and summary. It states:
Note that the OGL1.0 was perpetual (but not irrevocable),
My lay-persons understanding is that the intent was for it to be irrevocable, but that in the twenty-three years since it's publication case law in other situations has found that the term perpetual - which was understood by the drafters at the time to include irrevocable - does not necessarily need to be tied to irrevocable. Which means that whether or not it can be revoked is only resolvable through legal cases. It will, of course, be Hasbro/WOTC's position that it can be revoked, but them simply saying so and waving in the general direction of plausibly but not definitively related cases does not make it so.
I'm beyond pissed on behalf of all the visionary, creative people who have built their livelihood in supporting this game. It is their efforts that have built D&D to the phenomenon it is today, and they shouldn't have to be forced to court just to preserve rights that were already explicitly and repeatedly given to them and then re-affirmed by this very company when questioned.
It's especially ironic that this is the pure definition of "Lawful Evil" at a time when the game designers have been actively trying to reduce and remove the alignment system from the game. And, to be clear, I blame this entirely on corporate leadership and whoever leaked this ahead of whatever they planned for prepared announcements is a hero of the game.
posted by meinvt at 10:31 AM on January 9, 2023 [35 favorites]
Not being in any way a legal expert on this stuff -- does the new license threaten Pathfinder 1e and 2e? Could it drive Paizo out of business? Roll20? Kobold Press? Critical Role?
I am not a lawyer but have followed the legal arguments on RPG forums with interest…
A consensus seems to be that this will not make a difference to already published content but may well affect everything going forwards. There’s arguments on both sides as to whether WOTC can legally deauthorise the previous OGL as they have said they will in the new text. It certainly seems like an attempt to squash the 3rd party companies or bring them to the negotiating table for custom deals with WOTC.
47 (and counting) page thread on Enworld (CW contains lawyers)
posted by brilliantmistake at 10:33 AM on January 9, 2023 [4 favorites]
I am not a lawyer but have followed the legal arguments on RPG forums with interest…
A consensus seems to be that this will not make a difference to already published content but may well affect everything going forwards. There’s arguments on both sides as to whether WOTC can legally deauthorise the previous OGL as they have said they will in the new text. It certainly seems like an attempt to squash the 3rd party companies or bring them to the negotiating table for custom deals with WOTC.
47 (and counting) page thread on Enworld (CW contains lawyers)
posted by brilliantmistake at 10:33 AM on January 9, 2023 [4 favorites]
it's totally unclear to me what value the D&D brand actually currently brings to players
From what I can tell, Fifth Edition D&D exists because WotC perceived that Pathfinder (a licensed clone of 3rd Edition D&D) was more popular than their own 4th Edition (which, itself, was a response to perceived loss of market share to World of Warcraft).
D&D is a recognizable brand to casual players in a way that "Pathfinder" or "Dungeon Crawl Classics" (a variant on the original Advanced Dungeons & Dragons produced by Goodman Games) isn't. But I've played both, and not to mention rules-light games such as Mork Borg, Mothership, and even Fiasco. If I decided to quit playing D&D, I'd have plenty of options.
posted by Gelatin at 10:34 AM on January 9, 2023 [7 favorites]
From what I can tell, Fifth Edition D&D exists because WotC perceived that Pathfinder (a licensed clone of 3rd Edition D&D) was more popular than their own 4th Edition (which, itself, was a response to perceived loss of market share to World of Warcraft).
D&D is a recognizable brand to casual players in a way that "Pathfinder" or "Dungeon Crawl Classics" (a variant on the original Advanced Dungeons & Dragons produced by Goodman Games) isn't. But I've played both, and not to mention rules-light games such as Mork Borg, Mothership, and even Fiasco. If I decided to quit playing D&D, I'd have plenty of options.
posted by Gelatin at 10:34 AM on January 9, 2023 [7 favorites]
A couple quick comments in response to other early responses:
- Yes, people will move to new systems. Many are already in that process in a way that will take another decade to reverse. WotC learned this lesson with 4E, the GSL, and the flourishing of Pathfinder. They don't understand their own history.
- WotC/Hasbro clearly wants to make a "walled garden" experience much like the Apple App store and just take 25% off the top of everyone's creative effort. As such I expect most of the enforcement to be aimed at video content (live play) creators, online markets, virtual tabletops, and similar digital media.
- Yes, online virtual tabletop play market really is that big. Especially for the pandemic years which is the most recent they have data for. You of course won't see those players as much in the wild, but they are out there.
This change could absolutely force almost all the major market participants to significantly change. But the notion that Critical Role, Paizo, Roll20, etc. can't find a way to provide non-D&D role-playing is just silly and shows a fundamental misunderstanding of the product they are selling. When you shoot yourself in the foot with a bazooka you develop more than a limp.
posted by meinvt at 10:37 AM on January 9, 2023 [8 favorites]
- Yes, people will move to new systems. Many are already in that process in a way that will take another decade to reverse. WotC learned this lesson with 4E, the GSL, and the flourishing of Pathfinder. They don't understand their own history.
- WotC/Hasbro clearly wants to make a "walled garden" experience much like the Apple App store and just take 25% off the top of everyone's creative effort. As such I expect most of the enforcement to be aimed at video content (live play) creators, online markets, virtual tabletops, and similar digital media.
- Yes, online virtual tabletop play market really is that big. Especially for the pandemic years which is the most recent they have data for. You of course won't see those players as much in the wild, but they are out there.
This change could absolutely force almost all the major market participants to significantly change. But the notion that Critical Role, Paizo, Roll20, etc. can't find a way to provide non-D&D role-playing is just silly and shows a fundamental misunderstanding of the product they are selling. When you shoot yourself in the foot with a bazooka you develop more than a limp.
posted by meinvt at 10:37 AM on January 9, 2023 [8 favorites]
Not being in any way a legal expert on this stuff -- does the new license threaten Pathfinder 1e and 2e? Could it drive Paizo out of business? Roll20? Kobold Press? Critical Role?
I'm in a long running D&D campaign where one of the players is a lawyer (patent law, not trademark or contract law, alas) and we spent a lot of time talking about this last week. He said that this in no way can reach back in time and invalidate already-published works that relied on the OGL1.0. No update to a contract can do that; it's a foundation of contract law.
He also opined that the OGL was useless to begin with. Rules (e.g. 'roll a d6 to determine if you find the secret door') can't be copyrighted or trademarked. The specific text which explains the rule can, but not the mechanical rule itself. So you could, for example, make a completely legal copy of the 5e monster manual as long as you reworded everything and didn't use any trademarked proper names (no "beholder," but you could have an "eye beast", etc.) Third-party publisher Arc Dream broadly agrees with this (https://arcdream.com/home/2023/01/delta-green-without-the-ogl/)
posted by riotnrrd at 10:40 AM on January 9, 2023 [15 favorites]
I'm in a long running D&D campaign where one of the players is a lawyer (patent law, not trademark or contract law, alas) and we spent a lot of time talking about this last week. He said that this in no way can reach back in time and invalidate already-published works that relied on the OGL1.0. No update to a contract can do that; it's a foundation of contract law.
He also opined that the OGL was useless to begin with. Rules (e.g. 'roll a d6 to determine if you find the secret door') can't be copyrighted or trademarked. The specific text which explains the rule can, but not the mechanical rule itself. So you could, for example, make a completely legal copy of the 5e monster manual as long as you reworded everything and didn't use any trademarked proper names (no "beholder," but you could have an "eye beast", etc.) Third-party publisher Arc Dream broadly agrees with this (https://arcdream.com/home/2023/01/delta-green-without-the-ogl/)
posted by riotnrrd at 10:40 AM on January 9, 2023 [15 favorites]
I feel like this OGL update is aimed at the VTT world. Hasbro wants the next edition of D&D to be online as much as possible; all tools and books will be online-first and they'll have their own VTT system. So they want to kill all possible competitors in that space, and this is they way they're going to try.
posted by riotnrrd at 10:42 AM on January 9, 2023 [8 favorites]
posted by riotnrrd at 10:42 AM on January 9, 2023 [8 favorites]
And, to be clear, I blame this entirely on corporate leadership and whoever leaked this ahead of whatever they planned for prepared announcements is a hero of the game.
The leak suggests that someone inside the Hasbro / WotC corporate structure isn't happy with the new terms at all and wants to see them reduced to zero hit points.
I have also seen suggestions that Hasbro leaked this version of the OGL so that a subsequent revision -- which is still disadvantageous but not as awful as this one -- will be better perceived. I doubt they were that cunning, but if so, it's still despicable.
posted by Gelatin at 10:45 AM on January 9, 2023 [2 favorites]
The leak suggests that someone inside the Hasbro / WotC corporate structure isn't happy with the new terms at all and wants to see them reduced to zero hit points.
I have also seen suggestions that Hasbro leaked this version of the OGL so that a subsequent revision -- which is still disadvantageous but not as awful as this one -- will be better perceived. I doubt they were that cunning, but if so, it's still despicable.
posted by Gelatin at 10:45 AM on January 9, 2023 [2 favorites]
So, in one sense, I don't think the TTRPG world is or really can be threatened by moves like this. Like, there are still people playing decades old editions of DnD and other games and pretty much no one can stop friends from getting together and using old books or PDFs or mashing together systems or making their own rules. So seems to me like the casual, social, and kitchen table aspects of RPGs are pretty much fine.
But also, especially in the past few years, there's been such growth in the industry and in various associated businesses, platforms, and content creators. And I think those could very well be threatened or even destroyed by these moves. Especially the aspects most reliant on the OGL, like Pathfinder.
The commentary I've been reading--mostly on RPG.net--suggests the biggest threat/zone of contention/target are the virtual table top platforms, which have become huge during the pandemic. The thinking goes that these companies make most of their money through DnD, as it's by far the most popular game. So if Hasbro uses the new license to force those companies to update and also to discontinue providing access to games that are based on the older license, those games could be cut off from a vital platform that many people use to play now (and maybe revenue too, I'm not sure about that part).
Also crucial is that whatever is truly legal (and just, which are of course not the same thing) might not matter given Hasbro's huge corporate coffers and the way the legal system is set up so that the wealthy can just outlast the rest of us. So Hasbro might literally bankrupt smaller RPG companies through protracted legal battles.
The reaction so far makes me hopeful that they might have underestimated the popular backlash and I think/hope that large swathes of the community might move to other games and systems.
posted by overglow at 10:46 AM on January 9, 2023 [2 favorites]
But also, especially in the past few years, there's been such growth in the industry and in various associated businesses, platforms, and content creators. And I think those could very well be threatened or even destroyed by these moves. Especially the aspects most reliant on the OGL, like Pathfinder.
The commentary I've been reading--mostly on RPG.net--suggests the biggest threat/zone of contention/target are the virtual table top platforms, which have become huge during the pandemic. The thinking goes that these companies make most of their money through DnD, as it's by far the most popular game. So if Hasbro uses the new license to force those companies to update and also to discontinue providing access to games that are based on the older license, those games could be cut off from a vital platform that many people use to play now (and maybe revenue too, I'm not sure about that part).
Also crucial is that whatever is truly legal (and just, which are of course not the same thing) might not matter given Hasbro's huge corporate coffers and the way the legal system is set up so that the wealthy can just outlast the rest of us. So Hasbro might literally bankrupt smaller RPG companies through protracted legal battles.
The reaction so far makes me hopeful that they might have underestimated the popular backlash and I think/hope that large swathes of the community might move to other games and systems.
posted by overglow at 10:46 AM on January 9, 2023 [2 favorites]
As someone who has never played D&D (or any other comparable RPG), would roll20 be the place for me to start to learn and find like-minded (and -experienced) folks? I know no-one who plays IRL and locally.
posted by the sobsister at 10:46 AM on January 9, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by the sobsister at 10:46 AM on January 9, 2023 [3 favorites]
- Yes, online virtual tabletop play market really is that big. Especially for the pandemic years which is the most recent they have data for. You of course won't see those players as much in the wild, but they are out there.
I know Wizards sponsors a monthly weekend of online D&D (because I DM for them). There are online players, but I don't know how popular these events are now versus during the pandemic.
All I know for sure is that everyone at my game store -- who, admittedly, were playing in the store before the pandemic -- went right back to the tabletop as soon as we could.
posted by Gelatin at 10:48 AM on January 9, 2023
I know Wizards sponsors a monthly weekend of online D&D (because I DM for them). There are online players, but I don't know how popular these events are now versus during the pandemic.
All I know for sure is that everyone at my game store -- who, admittedly, were playing in the store before the pandemic -- went right back to the tabletop as soon as we could.
posted by Gelatin at 10:48 AM on January 9, 2023
the notion that Critical Role, Paizo, Roll20, etc. can't find a way to provide non-D&D role-playing is just silly and shows a fundamental misunderstanding of the product they are selling.
I agree. Whatever the value of D&D is to various players, people watch Critical Role not because hey, wow, they're playing 5th Edition D&D! but because they are playing 5th Edition D&D. If Mercer switched his campaign over to, say, Pathfinder, I doubt all their fans would notice, much less care.
posted by Gelatin at 10:50 AM on January 9, 2023 [9 favorites]
I agree. Whatever the value of D&D is to various players, people watch Critical Role not because hey, wow, they're playing 5th Edition D&D! but because they are playing 5th Edition D&D. If Mercer switched his campaign over to, say, Pathfinder, I doubt all their fans would notice, much less care.
posted by Gelatin at 10:50 AM on January 9, 2023 [9 favorites]
He also opined that the OGL was useless to begin with.
This is very true as a matter of law, and is why Paizo et al. will be fine if they reword some things in any future books, but one of the main benefits of the original OGL was that it functioned as a truce, removing the sword of Damocles hanging over tiny publishers that potential litigation represented. So even if the OGL was effectively a legal nullity it had real concrete benefits for everyone.
posted by Ultracrepidarian at 10:51 AM on January 9, 2023 [5 favorites]
This is very true as a matter of law, and is why Paizo et al. will be fine if they reword some things in any future books, but one of the main benefits of the original OGL was that it functioned as a truce, removing the sword of Damocles hanging over tiny publishers that potential litigation represented. So even if the OGL was effectively a legal nullity it had real concrete benefits for everyone.
posted by Ultracrepidarian at 10:51 AM on January 9, 2023 [5 favorites]
The reaction so far makes me hopeful that they might have underestimated the popular backlash and I think/hope that large swathes of the community might move to other games and systems.
Prediction: They won't. How could they have gotten to this point if they understood their community well enough to realize that?
The don't think they need their community, so they're going to find out that their community does not need them.
posted by mhoye at 10:52 AM on January 9, 2023 [8 favorites]
Prediction: They won't. How could they have gotten to this point if they understood their community well enough to realize that?
The don't think they need their community, so they're going to find out that their community does not need them.
posted by mhoye at 10:52 AM on January 9, 2023 [8 favorites]
We use Roll20 as our DM and friendly TTRPG freak moved to a distant suburb (this coincided with the pandemic, so double reason). It's not as fun. But it would especially be a drag if you couldn't connect Roll20 with DNDBeyond... which is what we do. This makes it pretty streamlined. For instance, if one player "rolls" the dice, it is displayed in everyone's chat window. There's more to it than that, but it's a good example.
I've heard WotC is planning its own VTT platform. (Wasn't that their original plan for 4e?)
DND Beyond is already pricey. The person I mentioned bought the entire kit and caboodle and the way it is now, all us players and DMs can use his legally purchased content as long as he's hosting the game. We pitched in as a group and gave him money to cover the costs. So with a group of trusting friends, the price isn't too bad.
My guess is they will monetize the everliving hell out of this. Make every player pay in every game just to have access to the online tools. I haven't been playing lately, as Roll20 can be a drag (it's akin to a Zoom meeting in many ways) and I was busy with work. This news makes me even less excited to jump back in.
posted by SoberHighland at 11:05 AM on January 9, 2023 [5 favorites]
I've heard WotC is planning its own VTT platform. (Wasn't that their original plan for 4e?)
DND Beyond is already pricey. The person I mentioned bought the entire kit and caboodle and the way it is now, all us players and DMs can use his legally purchased content as long as he's hosting the game. We pitched in as a group and gave him money to cover the costs. So with a group of trusting friends, the price isn't too bad.
My guess is they will monetize the everliving hell out of this. Make every player pay in every game just to have access to the online tools. I haven't been playing lately, as Roll20 can be a drag (it's akin to a Zoom meeting in many ways) and I was busy with work. This news makes me even less excited to jump back in.
posted by SoberHighland at 11:05 AM on January 9, 2023 [5 favorites]
As someone who has never played D&D (or any other comparable RPG), would roll20 be the place for me to start to learn and find like-minded (and -experienced) folks? I know no-one who plays IRL and locally.
Playing online with strangers is probably the worst way to be introduced to the hobby, but probably better than nothing. It's collective story telling with some randomnesss in the mix, so it's really all about the players interacting and being creative together. That's really suboptimal to do online, when only one person can speak at once and you're staring at a screen rather than being in a room with people. Think of the difference between a video call and hanging out with someone at a coffee shop.
But, if that's your only alternative go for it! If there's an online space you generally like the vibe of, try looking for "LFG" (looking for group) or "LFP" (ditto but for players) posts or spaces and connect with people there. Make sure your group (or maybe just you and the DM if you're joining a currently-running campaign) have a "session zero" where you discuss what you want in a game, and more importantly what you don't want. This isn't just for the major red flags (no sex roleplaying, or no explicit or implied rape, etc.) but also what kind of game is it? Is it gritty and lethal, where death lurks behind every scowling kobold, or is it more high-fantasy and heroic where player death is rare and deeply meaningful for the story? By the end of the session zero discussion, you should know what kind of game you're playing and understand the expectations the rest of the group have for you as a new player.
Best of luck and remember, never use a Deck of Many Things.
posted by riotnrrd at 11:05 AM on January 9, 2023 [7 favorites]
Playing online with strangers is probably the worst way to be introduced to the hobby, but probably better than nothing. It's collective story telling with some randomnesss in the mix, so it's really all about the players interacting and being creative together. That's really suboptimal to do online, when only one person can speak at once and you're staring at a screen rather than being in a room with people. Think of the difference between a video call and hanging out with someone at a coffee shop.
But, if that's your only alternative go for it! If there's an online space you generally like the vibe of, try looking for "LFG" (looking for group) or "LFP" (ditto but for players) posts or spaces and connect with people there. Make sure your group (or maybe just you and the DM if you're joining a currently-running campaign) have a "session zero" where you discuss what you want in a game, and more importantly what you don't want. This isn't just for the major red flags (no sex roleplaying, or no explicit or implied rape, etc.) but also what kind of game is it? Is it gritty and lethal, where death lurks behind every scowling kobold, or is it more high-fantasy and heroic where player death is rare and deeply meaningful for the story? By the end of the session zero discussion, you should know what kind of game you're playing and understand the expectations the rest of the group have for you as a new player.
Best of luck and remember, never use a Deck of Many Things.
posted by riotnrrd at 11:05 AM on January 9, 2023 [7 favorites]
I very much prefer the in-person TTRPG experience, but for Reasons, that still isn't a viable option for our group. Online services like D&D Beyond and Roll20 are great at facilitating online play. We've also had a D&D group form from our FFXIV Discord, and online is our only option for TTRPG play, as we are scattered all over the globe.
The only reason, really, that we've been using 5e is because D&D Beyond has some great tools. But if Hasbro/WotC are going to be silly about this, we'd have no reservations at all about switching to a different system. D20 Modern lends itself well to online play. The groups I tend to play in are generally rules-light anyway, with much more emphasis on RP and storytelling than playing Excel: The RPG. Really, just about any rules framework will work just fine for whatever campaign you're running. It's not too hard to pull material from different sources and make it work. One campaign, we were playing a Shadowrun story, using Starfinder characters, on D20 Modern. Focus on the story, with just enough risk and drama to keep it interesting, and remember to kill a PC once in a while. ;)
posted by xedrik at 11:06 AM on January 9, 2023 [4 favorites]
The only reason, really, that we've been using 5e is because D&D Beyond has some great tools. But if Hasbro/WotC are going to be silly about this, we'd have no reservations at all about switching to a different system. D20 Modern lends itself well to online play. The groups I tend to play in are generally rules-light anyway, with much more emphasis on RP and storytelling than playing Excel: The RPG. Really, just about any rules framework will work just fine for whatever campaign you're running. It's not too hard to pull material from different sources and make it work. One campaign, we were playing a Shadowrun story, using Starfinder characters, on D20 Modern. Focus on the story, with just enough risk and drama to keep it interesting, and remember to kill a PC once in a while. ;)
posted by xedrik at 11:06 AM on January 9, 2023 [4 favorites]
Putting aside that TSR (original creator/owner of D&D) wasn't exactly great at community management, it's worth pointing out if you're wondering how Hasbro could be so bad at interfacing with the community ...
Well. The current CEO came to the company from Microsoft, with no prior tabletop games experience. He was a VP of sales in his prior position. Since he became CEO last year (after the old CEO died), he has helmed such wonderful PR opportunities as selling a 30th Anniversary set of M:tG cards that are not tournament legal (they're literally proxies) for $1,000 for 4 randomized booster packs.
Let me repeat: $1,000 for 60 cards that don't even count as real game pieces (link is to an excellent takedown video from a major content creator in the M:tG space).
Hasbro CEO Chris Cocks has been quite blunt in investor calls that he feels D&D is under-monetized -- which is to say, they could squeeze the community for a lot more money and get some sweet bonuses in the C-suite and who gives a shit if the company is left as a smoking husk after he parachutes out.
And as for those who are saying this won't matter ... look, I'm not a lawyer, and maybe you have a lawyer claiming this couldn't happen, but there's other lawyers out there right now in the D&D space who are worried that it could. As mentioned above, it's not so much a question of "changing" the contract; it's that for 20+ years everyone (including WotC, now Hasbro) believed it was irrevocable by the terms of the contract, but now Hasbro thinks that case law that has been established in the interim lets them interpret it in a different way. The argument they're setting up isn't that the contract is changing, but that it was always this way and everyone misunderstood it.
Are they right? I don't know, but I'm sure Hasbro is betting that few if any have the war chest to go to court to find out.
posted by a faithful sock at 11:12 AM on January 9, 2023 [20 favorites]
Well. The current CEO came to the company from Microsoft, with no prior tabletop games experience. He was a VP of sales in his prior position. Since he became CEO last year (after the old CEO died), he has helmed such wonderful PR opportunities as selling a 30th Anniversary set of M:tG cards that are not tournament legal (they're literally proxies) for $1,000 for 4 randomized booster packs.
Let me repeat: $1,000 for 60 cards that don't even count as real game pieces (link is to an excellent takedown video from a major content creator in the M:tG space).
Hasbro CEO Chris Cocks has been quite blunt in investor calls that he feels D&D is under-monetized -- which is to say, they could squeeze the community for a lot more money and get some sweet bonuses in the C-suite and who gives a shit if the company is left as a smoking husk after he parachutes out.
And as for those who are saying this won't matter ... look, I'm not a lawyer, and maybe you have a lawyer claiming this couldn't happen, but there's other lawyers out there right now in the D&D space who are worried that it could. As mentioned above, it's not so much a question of "changing" the contract; it's that for 20+ years everyone (including WotC, now Hasbro) believed it was irrevocable by the terms of the contract, but now Hasbro thinks that case law that has been established in the interim lets them interpret it in a different way. The argument they're setting up isn't that the contract is changing, but that it was always this way and everyone misunderstood it.
Are they right? I don't know, but I'm sure Hasbro is betting that few if any have the war chest to go to court to find out.
posted by a faithful sock at 11:12 AM on January 9, 2023 [20 favorites]
He also opined that the OGL was useless to begin with.
There’s a very good article at The Alexandrian about the question of what the point is of the OGL if you can’t copyright game mechanics. In summary it’s super complicated and not as cut and dry as most people think. Something of the complexity of an RPG has never really been tested in court and the OGL makes things much more easy for third party creators in not having to worry about hiring an IP lawyer to check every word of their product.
https://thealexandrian.net/wordpress/48781/roleplaying-games/do-i-need-to-use-the-open-gaming-license
posted by brilliantmistake at 11:17 AM on January 9, 2023 [9 favorites]
There’s a very good article at The Alexandrian about the question of what the point is of the OGL if you can’t copyright game mechanics. In summary it’s super complicated and not as cut and dry as most people think. Something of the complexity of an RPG has never really been tested in court and the OGL makes things much more easy for third party creators in not having to worry about hiring an IP lawyer to check every word of their product.
https://thealexandrian.net/wordpress/48781/roleplaying-games/do-i-need-to-use-the-open-gaming-license
posted by brilliantmistake at 11:17 AM on January 9, 2023 [9 favorites]
They will be SHOCKED at how fast I think many players will just move to a new TTRPG.
My little nonprofit ran a D&D fundraiser game literally last night and will not be using D&D as the source for the next one. It's just not worth the headache with the potential for legal issues, and... there are lots and LOTS of other systems.
posted by restless_nomad at 11:22 AM on January 9, 2023 [2 favorites]
My little nonprofit ran a D&D fundraiser game literally last night and will not be using D&D as the source for the next one. It's just not worth the headache with the potential for legal issues, and... there are lots and LOTS of other systems.
posted by restless_nomad at 11:22 AM on January 9, 2023 [2 favorites]
does the new license threaten Pathfinder 1e and 2e? Could it drive Paizo out of business? Roll20? Kobold Press? Critical Role?
Not a lawyer, and I haven't read/listened to all the analysis, but from what I understand of the OGL 1.1 "leak"*, it sounds like the OGL is going after print and PDF works so it feels like it is primarily going after Paizo/Kobold Press, etc. Things like Roll20, from what I understand, will have to negotiate & sign a separate agreement. Critical Role looks to be in an unusual place - their show probably qualifies under the Fan Content Policy, but their publications would come under OGL.
At any rate, the upshot of all of this seems to me to be that WOTC is about to create a thriving grey/black market of publications for D&D, as well as a being push for creators & players to move to other systems. Forget the $750k threshold; why would anyone take the chance of creating something for D&D and having WOTC swoop in and take it? What they don't seem to realize is that the d20 system is just a game engine; lots of us (myself included) were happy to use that engine for playing and creating, but I and my group can find a different engine pretty quick. I mean, let's be honest, every group already has some table rules of their own, and I've certainly lifted ideas/mechanics from early versions of D&D and other systems and brought them in. There's a tremendous amount of systems out there to go explore.
I've been playing TTRPGs for most of my life at this point, and the joy I get from them is not the system - it's the chance to be creative and build characters/settings/possibilities and then flesh them out further in a shared narrative with other players. D&D might have been my initial gateway into that, but it hasn't been the one and only. Lots of other imaginary worlds to go to, lots of ways to get there and interact with them.
*I'm highly suspicious of the "leak" - I think this is a very close to final version of the OGL that WOTC decided to release to a few places to gauge community reaction. What they do with the reaction they are getting is going to be fascinating to see.
posted by nubs at 11:24 AM on January 9, 2023 [7 favorites]
Not a lawyer, and I haven't read/listened to all the analysis, but from what I understand of the OGL 1.1 "leak"*, it sounds like the OGL is going after print and PDF works so it feels like it is primarily going after Paizo/Kobold Press, etc. Things like Roll20, from what I understand, will have to negotiate & sign a separate agreement. Critical Role looks to be in an unusual place - their show probably qualifies under the Fan Content Policy, but their publications would come under OGL.
At any rate, the upshot of all of this seems to me to be that WOTC is about to create a thriving grey/black market of publications for D&D, as well as a being push for creators & players to move to other systems. Forget the $750k threshold; why would anyone take the chance of creating something for D&D and having WOTC swoop in and take it? What they don't seem to realize is that the d20 system is just a game engine; lots of us (myself included) were happy to use that engine for playing and creating, but I and my group can find a different engine pretty quick. I mean, let's be honest, every group already has some table rules of their own, and I've certainly lifted ideas/mechanics from early versions of D&D and other systems and brought them in. There's a tremendous amount of systems out there to go explore.
I've been playing TTRPGs for most of my life at this point, and the joy I get from them is not the system - it's the chance to be creative and build characters/settings/possibilities and then flesh them out further in a shared narrative with other players. D&D might have been my initial gateway into that, but it hasn't been the one and only. Lots of other imaginary worlds to go to, lots of ways to get there and interact with them.
*I'm highly suspicious of the "leak" - I think this is a very close to final version of the OGL that WOTC decided to release to a few places to gauge community reaction. What they do with the reaction they are getting is going to be fascinating to see.
posted by nubs at 11:24 AM on January 9, 2023 [7 favorites]
When I was a kid I used to stand around in stores reading the D&D manuals, which I couldn't remotely afford; then I and some friends typed up our own set of rules. Honestly it was more fun making tables of weird weapon names and how much damage they did than it was actually playing the game. Anyway, IANAL and I'm sure I'm unclear on the nuances, but "perpetual unless we decide later it wasn't really perpetual" seems like a good way to get everybody to hate and distrust you.
posted by Sing Or Swim at 11:27 AM on January 9, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by Sing Or Swim at 11:27 AM on January 9, 2023 [1 favorite]
Delta Green Without the OGL
We included the OGL in the core rulebooks of Delta Green: The Role-Playing Game: the Agent’s Handbook, the Handler’s Guide, and Need to Know. That added their rules elements—but not the text, nor the Delta Green intellectual property—to a body of similar OGL game mechanics begun with WOTC’s 2004 Unearthed Arcana and Mongoose Publishing’s Legend. It served to make clear the foundations on which Delta Green’s rules were built.
With hints that WOTC may attempt to revoke the OGL or impose more onerous terms in a new version, the OGL serves no useful purpose. We will remove that page—the text of the license—from our games. Nothing else will change. The intellectual property known as Delta Green is a trademark and copyright owned by the Delta Green Partnership. The OGL never covered nor facilitated the Delta Green intellectual property: the characters, stories, and other works of Delta Green that have inspired terror around the table for a generation.
posted by Artw at 11:33 AM on January 9, 2023 [15 favorites]
We included the OGL in the core rulebooks of Delta Green: The Role-Playing Game: the Agent’s Handbook, the Handler’s Guide, and Need to Know. That added their rules elements—but not the text, nor the Delta Green intellectual property—to a body of similar OGL game mechanics begun with WOTC’s 2004 Unearthed Arcana and Mongoose Publishing’s Legend. It served to make clear the foundations on which Delta Green’s rules were built.
With hints that WOTC may attempt to revoke the OGL or impose more onerous terms in a new version, the OGL serves no useful purpose. We will remove that page—the text of the license—from our games. Nothing else will change. The intellectual property known as Delta Green is a trademark and copyright owned by the Delta Green Partnership. The OGL never covered nor facilitated the Delta Green intellectual property: the characters, stories, and other works of Delta Green that have inspired terror around the table for a generation.
posted by Artw at 11:33 AM on January 9, 2023 [15 favorites]
The stars align to facilitate my long-term plan; manipulating my tabletop group into playing more of my obnoxiously high-concept Genesys campaigns.
posted by Phobos the Space Potato at 11:36 AM on January 9, 2023 [6 favorites]
posted by Phobos the Space Potato at 11:36 AM on January 9, 2023 [6 favorites]
Also, while Paizo's pathfinder may have been a lightly updated D&D 3.5e clone with the WoTC trademark monsters and such taken out for all the people who wanted to keep playing 3.5e and getting new content, Starfinder, and especially Pathfinder 2e are very much their own system from the ground up apart from most rolls involving using a twenty sided die to determine degree of success. I mean I wouldn't put it past Hasbro to try and claim icosahedrons are their intellectual property, but I think Paizo is (probably very intentionally) not very reliant on D&D related IP by this point.
Honestly, I've heard good things about Pathfinder second edition, it just didn't seem like it filled a niche that was needed - it doesn't quite have the dizzying array of customization complexity that Pathfinder 1e/D&D 3.5e had , and wasn't quite as easy to just pick up and play as D&D 5e.
But if Hasbro is going to go ahead and make their stuff painful to work with for creators and try to push D&D players into a walled garden, suddenly Pathfinder 2e fills a very useful and attractive niche for me.
I think I'm probably go ahead and order the books.
posted by Zalzidrax at 11:37 AM on January 9, 2023 [6 favorites]
Honestly, I've heard good things about Pathfinder second edition, it just didn't seem like it filled a niche that was needed - it doesn't quite have the dizzying array of customization complexity that Pathfinder 1e/D&D 3.5e had , and wasn't quite as easy to just pick up and play as D&D 5e.
But if Hasbro is going to go ahead and make their stuff painful to work with for creators and try to push D&D players into a walled garden, suddenly Pathfinder 2e fills a very useful and attractive niche for me.
I think I'm probably go ahead and order the books.
posted by Zalzidrax at 11:37 AM on January 9, 2023 [6 favorites]
Critical Role looks to be in an unusual place - their show probably qualifies under the Fan Content Policy, but their publications would come under OGL.
I'm awaiting what Critical Role and Acquisitions, Incorporated will have to say about this. Critical Role is the #1 Twitch earner (at least as of the data leak from 2021) and most generally beloved D&D show out there. I don't think there's any way Mercer would allow WotC to distribute Exandria-related material without his oversight, to say nothing of the fact that Vox Machina characters are also now licensed to Amazon Prime for the Legend Of Vox Machina animated series... does WotC want to come for a piece of Amazon's pie? Good f'n luck.
As for Acq Inc, while its not as high-profile as CR, they already have material officially distributed through DnDBeyond, with other fan content on the side. At PAX Unplugged last month, they made a great production out of bringing their 10+ year campaign to an end, with a heavy implication that they would reboot as a OneD&D campaign... I mean, Jeremy Crawford is their personal DM! But Gabe and Mike are legendarily sensitive about rights to their work, after having been burned on Penny Arcade publishing and merch in the past.
(Now that I think of it, offering a "perpetual" license then suddenly cancelling once it turns profitable is a total Omin Dran move...)
posted by The Pluto Gangsta at 11:40 AM on January 9, 2023 [6 favorites]
I'm awaiting what Critical Role and Acquisitions, Incorporated will have to say about this. Critical Role is the #1 Twitch earner (at least as of the data leak from 2021) and most generally beloved D&D show out there. I don't think there's any way Mercer would allow WotC to distribute Exandria-related material without his oversight, to say nothing of the fact that Vox Machina characters are also now licensed to Amazon Prime for the Legend Of Vox Machina animated series... does WotC want to come for a piece of Amazon's pie? Good f'n luck.
As for Acq Inc, while its not as high-profile as CR, they already have material officially distributed through DnDBeyond, with other fan content on the side. At PAX Unplugged last month, they made a great production out of bringing their 10+ year campaign to an end, with a heavy implication that they would reboot as a OneD&D campaign... I mean, Jeremy Crawford is their personal DM! But Gabe and Mike are legendarily sensitive about rights to their work, after having been burned on Penny Arcade publishing and merch in the past.
(Now that I think of it, offering a "perpetual" license then suddenly cancelling once it turns profitable is a total Omin Dran move...)
posted by The Pluto Gangsta at 11:40 AM on January 9, 2023 [6 favorites]
I really don't understand the contract law details (and it sounds like no-one has a clear, definite answer), but if Matt Mercer just announces he is moving away from due to legal concerns, that's got to be a bad day for WotC, right?
posted by Hermione Dies at 11:43 AM on January 9, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by Hermione Dies at 11:43 AM on January 9, 2023 [2 favorites]
I was working on a post on this subject but this is a lot of what I would have covered. Here's my favorite link that's not in your set: WotC: D&D Fanbase Not Sufficiently Alienated To Generate Profit.
I have about three sessions to go to wind down my current campaign (assuming we can get back to it because we have serious IRL problems meeting right now). The next one will require some discussion but I doubt it will be 5e. And in the future 6e is right out of consideration.
posted by gentlyepigrams at 11:46 AM on January 9, 2023 [4 favorites]
I have about three sessions to go to wind down my current campaign (assuming we can get back to it because we have serious IRL problems meeting right now). The next one will require some discussion but I doubt it will be 5e. And in the future 6e is right out of consideration.
posted by gentlyepigrams at 11:46 AM on January 9, 2023 [4 favorites]
If Mercer switched his campaign over to, say, Pathfinder, I doubt all their fans would notice, much less care.
Ironic thing is, they switched from Pathfinder to 5th Edition just before the first stream of CR.
posted by Pendragon at 11:48 AM on January 9, 2023 [6 favorites]
Ironic thing is, they switched from Pathfinder to 5th Edition just before the first stream of CR.
posted by Pendragon at 11:48 AM on January 9, 2023 [6 favorites]
I'm awaiting what Critical Role and Acquisitions, Incorporated will have to say about this. Critical Role is the #1 Twitch earner (at least as of the data leak from 2021) and most generally beloved D&D show out there. I don't think there's any way Mercer would allow WotC to distribute Exandria-related material without his oversight, to say nothing of the fact that Vox Machina characters are also now licensed to Amazon Prime for the Legend Of Vox Machina animated series... does WotC want to come for a piece of Amazon's pie? Good f'n luck.
The lawyers will eat well for a few years off of all of this - WOTC vs. Paizo, WOTC vs. Kobold Press, WOTC vs. Critical Role, and so forth. If that's the direction this goes, I would expect to see groups like CR pivot to a completely different system and keep going (their popularity is not tied to D&D) while the lawyers fight about what it all means. And while all that goes on, everyone else will just migrate to something else, or leave the hobby.
Its the last outcome that worries me the most; it was nice to see this hobby get big; it's been so so nice - as someone who started playing in the early 1980's - to be able to connect in all sorts of ways with other players in ways we never could. VTTs are nice and all, but being able to see how other people DM, see people share house rules and notes and setting ideas - that's fantastic, and as a DM, it's been amazingly beneficial to have access to the wealth of ideas and resources people have made and shared (often free or at low cost) with the community. I guess that's what it feels like I'm potentially losing here - a community, or perhaps the sense of community & trust that we've had for a bit.
posted by nubs at 11:52 AM on January 9, 2023 [8 favorites]
The lawyers will eat well for a few years off of all of this - WOTC vs. Paizo, WOTC vs. Kobold Press, WOTC vs. Critical Role, and so forth. If that's the direction this goes, I would expect to see groups like CR pivot to a completely different system and keep going (their popularity is not tied to D&D) while the lawyers fight about what it all means. And while all that goes on, everyone else will just migrate to something else, or leave the hobby.
Its the last outcome that worries me the most; it was nice to see this hobby get big; it's been so so nice - as someone who started playing in the early 1980's - to be able to connect in all sorts of ways with other players in ways we never could. VTTs are nice and all, but being able to see how other people DM, see people share house rules and notes and setting ideas - that's fantastic, and as a DM, it's been amazingly beneficial to have access to the wealth of ideas and resources people have made and shared (often free or at low cost) with the community. I guess that's what it feels like I'm potentially losing here - a community, or perhaps the sense of community & trust that we've had for a bit.
posted by nubs at 11:52 AM on January 9, 2023 [8 favorites]
I played Basic and AD&D from 1979 to 1990 or so, then came back to the game in 2015. 5e is the best version of the game so far, I think most people would agree (except for the 3.5 die-hards who keep playing Pathfinder, but even Pathfinder has been pretty much 5e-ified with Pathfinder 2e). That said, D&D is not really that great as a TTRPG. It has the name recognition and a lot of history, but it's very unfocused and only has gotten moreso over the decades. Two of my three weekly games are D&D 5e, but mainly because that's what most people are comfortable playing. The last round of book releases have ramped up the power creep to such a degree that it's obvious they're trying to break the game to justify putting out the 6th edition they're currently working on. Edition churn is largely artificial; the publishers do it periodically to keep people buying product. I'm unlikely to rebuy all the core books at this point. TSR lost me for the same reason: I saw no benefit in reinvesting just so I could play 2e.
The people I knew in the 90s who played RPGs didn't play D&D. They played Vampire: The Masquerade or Shadowrun. Hasbro fucking up D&D could actually be a great thing for the community. There are so many other great games out there to try. My weekly game of Monster of the Week is my favorite, it's a much cleaner and more focused system than D&D.
Playing in person is so much better than online. I play one in-person game a week, one game on Roll20 (VTT), and one game on Discord (theater of the mind, audio + chat only, no maps). Frankly, I think the VTT gives the worst experience.
WotC has been paying lip service to some important improvements when it comes to decolonizing what started out as a pretty racially problematic game. But they have a poor track record of doing right by designers of color.
Add it all up and I'm primed to drift away from D&D again. This time, I plan to keep gaming, but I'm really excited about how many different choices there are.
posted by rikschell at 11:56 AM on January 9, 2023 [7 favorites]
The people I knew in the 90s who played RPGs didn't play D&D. They played Vampire: The Masquerade or Shadowrun. Hasbro fucking up D&D could actually be a great thing for the community. There are so many other great games out there to try. My weekly game of Monster of the Week is my favorite, it's a much cleaner and more focused system than D&D.
Playing in person is so much better than online. I play one in-person game a week, one game on Roll20 (VTT), and one game on Discord (theater of the mind, audio + chat only, no maps). Frankly, I think the VTT gives the worst experience.
WotC has been paying lip service to some important improvements when it comes to decolonizing what started out as a pretty racially problematic game. But they have a poor track record of doing right by designers of color.
Add it all up and I'm primed to drift away from D&D again. This time, I plan to keep gaming, but I'm really excited about how many different choices there are.
posted by rikschell at 11:56 AM on January 9, 2023 [7 favorites]
VTTs are nice and all, but being able to see how other people DM, see people share house rules and notes and setting ideas - that's fantastic, and as a DM, it's been amazingly beneficial to have access to the wealth of ideas and resources people have made and shared (often free or at low cost) with the community.
In light of this, it's worth mentioning that Wizards is right now playtesting an incremental new edition of D&D via a public playtest in which the playtesters are not compensated at all for their input. (Which I knew and never asked for, but the contrast is interesting.)
The current Player's Handbook does thank the thousands of playtesters who participated in the D&D Next playtest that helped develop it at the time.
posted by Gelatin at 11:57 AM on January 9, 2023 [1 favorite]
In light of this, it's worth mentioning that Wizards is right now playtesting an incremental new edition of D&D via a public playtest in which the playtesters are not compensated at all for their input. (Which I knew and never asked for, but the contrast is interesting.)
The current Player's Handbook does thank the thousands of playtesters who participated in the D&D Next playtest that helped develop it at the time.
posted by Gelatin at 11:57 AM on January 9, 2023 [1 favorite]
I've heard WotC is planning its own VTT platform. (Wasn't that their original plan for 4e?)
Yes, they tried exactly this in 2008 with 4th Edition and the (iirc) GSL. Except at that time they clearly stated that they didn't think they could revoke ('unauthorize') the OGL so they just hoped companies would sign on for their new product. Folks didn't, but in the 15 years since they've forgotten the exact hows or whys. Everyone just blames it on the game system - but it actually wasn't that at all. I say this as someone who ran and genuinely enjoyed 4E for years, after running Basic, Advanced, 2E, 3.5, and has since run Pathfinder and 5E. They are all of a continuum and the experience differences from the changing rules sets are amplified in online discussions. The growth and decline charts far more closely to broad social participation than any particular mechanical or IP expression.
If it weren't so destructive this whole thing would be more amusing in how oblivious it is to the product's own history.
posted by meinvt at 11:58 AM on January 9, 2023 [4 favorites]
Yes, they tried exactly this in 2008 with 4th Edition and the (iirc) GSL. Except at that time they clearly stated that they didn't think they could revoke ('unauthorize') the OGL so they just hoped companies would sign on for their new product. Folks didn't, but in the 15 years since they've forgotten the exact hows or whys. Everyone just blames it on the game system - but it actually wasn't that at all. I say this as someone who ran and genuinely enjoyed 4E for years, after running Basic, Advanced, 2E, 3.5, and has since run Pathfinder and 5E. They are all of a continuum and the experience differences from the changing rules sets are amplified in online discussions. The growth and decline charts far more closely to broad social participation than any particular mechanical or IP expression.
If it weren't so destructive this whole thing would be more amusing in how oblivious it is to the product's own history.
posted by meinvt at 11:58 AM on January 9, 2023 [4 favorites]
In my non-lawyer but has been playing DnD since the 70's mind there are so many thing to unpack here. I don't have time to provide more in-depth thoughts, but I will add a few points:
* I do believe Wizards is committed to revoking the 1.0 and 1.0a OGL licenses, certainly for any new content.
* If they try to revoke it for already published content, I'm sure it would be litigated and disastrous for them PR-wise. A strategy might be to say, "Oh we don't mean this for existing published content". If it was to be litigated, their stated intentions in the 2004 FAQ would be relevant. It has since been removed from wizards.com, the link I provided is one copy of it.
I play MTG casually and have followed Hasboro/WotC's handling of that IP and fanbase over the last few years. I have every faith they will savagely burn the loyalty and goodwill of the gaming community. I don't tend to make predictions, but I just don't see WotC showing the ability to come out with a good solution here. 3rd party publishers are key to the ecosystem; let them continue and everyone should be able to do well, including WotC.
posted by Walleye at 12:00 PM on January 9, 2023 [4 favorites]
* I do believe Wizards is committed to revoking the 1.0 and 1.0a OGL licenses, certainly for any new content.
* If they try to revoke it for already published content, I'm sure it would be litigated and disastrous for them PR-wise. A strategy might be to say, "Oh we don't mean this for existing published content". If it was to be litigated, their stated intentions in the 2004 FAQ would be relevant. It has since been removed from wizards.com, the link I provided is one copy of it.
I play MTG casually and have followed Hasboro/WotC's handling of that IP and fanbase over the last few years. I have every faith they will savagely burn the loyalty and goodwill of the gaming community. I don't tend to make predictions, but I just don't see WotC showing the ability to come out with a good solution here. 3rd party publishers are key to the ecosystem; let them continue and everyone should be able to do well, including WotC.
posted by Walleye at 12:00 PM on January 9, 2023 [4 favorites]
But do people really prefer playing D&D online to around a table?
IME, it's an alternative to not playing at all. It's not true that bad D&D is better than no D&D, but Great in person D&D can still be fun on-line.
Adults, new families, moving long distances, etc are all reasons to want to continue with groups of friends that otherwise would have stopped playing. Even more so, we've made new friend groups on things like discords and played a bunch of games with people from Ireland to Seattle in a single game.
Online play is pretty low barrier to entry, especially if the DM/referee knows what they're doing. It's no worse than a zoom call---with a modicum of not-too-expensive equipment, the computer interface largely disappears and all you remember is the game.
We still like to plan get-togethers with our main group every few months, but distances are a major challenge for everyone. On the other hand, it does mean we can do destination holidays where we all get together for a weekend or something. But the online play is the glue that keeps us together. Heck, I'm not sure for one of our members it kept him from going very dark places mentally during COVID. We were playing two times a week then, and I think that was a bit of a lifeline for him.
posted by bonehead at 12:01 PM on January 9, 2023 [8 favorites]
IME, it's an alternative to not playing at all. It's not true that bad D&D is better than no D&D, but Great in person D&D can still be fun on-line.
Adults, new families, moving long distances, etc are all reasons to want to continue with groups of friends that otherwise would have stopped playing. Even more so, we've made new friend groups on things like discords and played a bunch of games with people from Ireland to Seattle in a single game.
Online play is pretty low barrier to entry, especially if the DM/referee knows what they're doing. It's no worse than a zoom call---with a modicum of not-too-expensive equipment, the computer interface largely disappears and all you remember is the game.
We still like to plan get-togethers with our main group every few months, but distances are a major challenge for everyone. On the other hand, it does mean we can do destination holidays where we all get together for a weekend or something. But the online play is the glue that keeps us together. Heck, I'm not sure for one of our members it kept him from going very dark places mentally during COVID. We were playing two times a week then, and I think that was a bit of a lifeline for him.
posted by bonehead at 12:01 PM on January 9, 2023 [8 favorites]
I find it interesting to compare the approach Chaosium takes with the 2nd biggest RPG out there-Call of Cthulhu (and their other games like RuneQuest/Glorantha). They have a dual-barreled commercial license and community content programs. They offer SRDs for all their systems too. I don't know a whole lot about the licensing stuff, but it seems to work and keep 3rd parties publishing.
https://www.chaosium.com/fan-use-and-licensing/
Their situation is a little more complicated. While they own their own material, the copyright of the "Mythos" in general is famously murky. It's clear how to write game material, I think, but less clear what source material is free of copywrite and what isn't.
posted by bonehead at 12:06 PM on January 9, 2023 [1 favorite]
https://www.chaosium.com/fan-use-and-licensing/
Their situation is a little more complicated. While they own their own material, the copyright of the "Mythos" in general is famously murky. It's clear how to write game material, I think, but less clear what source material is free of copywrite and what isn't.
posted by bonehead at 12:06 PM on January 9, 2023 [1 favorite]
If anyone made the mistake of seeing what the Hasbro execs had to say during a fireside chat, following the community-wide pushback against Magic 30th Anniversary Edition, you would not be surprised this is the tact Hasbro / Wizards of the Coast are taking. These decisions are being made by assholes who don't even understand anything about these products -- and they are proud of this. They just see revenue to be extracted, a brand not sufficiently monetized. They are the sorts who only look at the next fiscal quarter and don't give a solitary damn about the history of the products or community goodwill.
I used to say that Magic the Gathering survives in spite of WotC, and they are sorely testing the limits of that statement. They might actually kill DND with this nonsense -- or come as close as one can get when dealing with a brand that would likely be sold off before it was left to rot.
posted by Dark Messiah at 12:08 PM on January 9, 2023 [10 favorites]
I used to say that Magic the Gathering survives in spite of WotC, and they are sorely testing the limits of that statement. They might actually kill DND with this nonsense -- or come as close as one can get when dealing with a brand that would likely be sold off before it was left to rot.
posted by Dark Messiah at 12:08 PM on January 9, 2023 [10 favorites]
roll d10 for constitution... ooo it's a 9, there is an angry mob with pitchforks and torches gathering outside your regional Hasbro corporate offices. You can see a team of security guards on the roof preparing a large vat of boiling oil.
posted by not_on_display at 12:08 PM on January 9, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by not_on_display at 12:08 PM on January 9, 2023 [3 favorites]
I remember back in the early 1990s before the web had taken off, when there were online mailing list communities like ADND-L and Usenet groups where fans had published tones of content on FTP sites and there was an under the radar publishing industry of independent modules. At some point TSR found about all of this and tried to bring the hammer down on this and tried to force everyone to pay royalties or take it down. The community got extremely upset about this and the backlash combined with other bad decisions lead to TSR basically going broke and being bought by Wizards of the Coast. WOTC seems to be run by people who understood that the community was key to the game. The OGL was part of a whole initiative of community engagement to re-establish the game. The people in charge at that time understood the value of the brand and the importance of building an ecosystem. Now you have new owners who just see the game as something to monetize. They see how Apple and Google make money off the app store and they want to get that model for DND. This scheme cooked up by their lawyers and accountants will fall just as flat as it did 30 years ago. Except that they won’t be able to do something like OGL to re-establish trust with the community. Anyway sad to see that it has gone fill circle where the game is once again in the hands of lawyer and accountants who don’t understand what they have and who think there are profits to be had in angering the community.
posted by interogative mood at 12:10 PM on January 9, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by interogative mood at 12:10 PM on January 9, 2023 [4 favorites]
"The secret we should never let the gamemasters know is that they don't need any rules [books]." - Gary Gygax
posted by Mogur at 12:11 PM on January 9, 2023 [13 favorites]
posted by Mogur at 12:11 PM on January 9, 2023 [13 favorites]
Troll Lords is liquidating their 5e stock. I think some other companies are making similar moves.
There's a copy of the leaked license @ http://ogl.battlezoo.com/ for people who want to take a look for themselves.
I see people talking about boycotting the movie, too. It looks like it's going to be a lot of fun, but if Hasbro goes through with this, I can't see myself paying money for the movie, either.
posted by Spike Glee at 12:12 PM on January 9, 2023 [4 favorites]
There's a copy of the leaked license @ http://ogl.battlezoo.com/ for people who want to take a look for themselves.
I see people talking about boycotting the movie, too. It looks like it's going to be a lot of fun, but if Hasbro goes through with this, I can't see myself paying money for the movie, either.
posted by Spike Glee at 12:12 PM on January 9, 2023 [4 favorites]
D&D also benefits from a (somewhat unprecedented) perception that D&D is cool.
What a time to be alive!
posted by chavenet at 12:13 PM on January 9, 2023 [17 favorites]
What a time to be alive!
posted by chavenet at 12:13 PM on January 9, 2023 [17 favorites]
I played Basic and AD&D from 1979 to 1990 or so, then came back to the game in 2015. 5e is the best version of the game so far, I think most people would agree
I'd strongly agree with this, even after fooling around extensively with the Old School Revival (OSR) games. Necrotic Gnome has done wonders with their Old-School Essentials editions (OSE), which recreate the Red Box and AD&D first edition (sort of), but the systems suffer from multiple resolutions mechanics---rolling d20s or d100s or d6s, rolling under or over a target---which make things really complicated for players. The use of tables rather than arithmetic doesn't help either.
I think there's a real opportunity for an OSR-style, rulings not rules kind of game build on a d20, roll target or over game with a proficiency mechanic for advancement. And it would probably be no more than a few pages worth of text either. The most important info really is how to set difficulty of checks and number of dice to roll for damage/effects at each level of play. 5e is 90% there on that now, and make rulings pretty intuitive as a result. But I think it needs an OSE-style review and condensing to really shine.
posted by bonehead at 12:14 PM on January 9, 2023 [1 favorite]
I'd strongly agree with this, even after fooling around extensively with the Old School Revival (OSR) games. Necrotic Gnome has done wonders with their Old-School Essentials editions (OSE), which recreate the Red Box and AD&D first edition (sort of), but the systems suffer from multiple resolutions mechanics---rolling d20s or d100s or d6s, rolling under or over a target---which make things really complicated for players. The use of tables rather than arithmetic doesn't help either.
I think there's a real opportunity for an OSR-style, rulings not rules kind of game build on a d20, roll target or over game with a proficiency mechanic for advancement. And it would probably be no more than a few pages worth of text either. The most important info really is how to set difficulty of checks and number of dice to roll for damage/effects at each level of play. 5e is 90% there on that now, and make rulings pretty intuitive as a result. But I think it needs an OSE-style review and condensing to really shine.
posted by bonehead at 12:14 PM on January 9, 2023 [1 favorite]
IME, it's an alternative to not playing at all. It's not true that bad D&D is better than no D&D, but Great in person D&D can still be fun on-line.
I agree -- as I said, I run games during the Virtual D&D Weekends and play some online as well, including in two online home campaigns with friends of mine from out of town. I'll happily play online as an alternative to not playing, or to play with people I otherwise couldn't. But I believe people still prefer the in-person experience.
It's just that Hazbro can't monetize that experience as well (by, for example, requiring every player to have a Player's Handbook in order to make their character).
posted by Gelatin at 12:18 PM on January 9, 2023 [1 favorite]
I agree -- as I said, I run games during the Virtual D&D Weekends and play some online as well, including in two online home campaigns with friends of mine from out of town. I'll happily play online as an alternative to not playing, or to play with people I otherwise couldn't. But I believe people still prefer the in-person experience.
It's just that Hazbro can't monetize that experience as well (by, for example, requiring every player to have a Player's Handbook in order to make their character).
posted by Gelatin at 12:18 PM on January 9, 2023 [1 favorite]
On the VTT tangent, my current longest running game is played online, and I actually like it a lot more than most of the in person tabletop experiences I've had over the years.
And I think a big part of it is that it's a group of friends that were originally online and met through online game RP servers and not in person. So a VTT game feels like an online RP with unlimited possibility and getting talk to your friends rather than trying to be a substitute for a tabletop game.
And because our group started from text base RP, we end up taking advantage of it being a hybrid text/voice format. Players can describe their character's subtle nonverbal reactions without interrupting the conversation or narration. Two characters who may not be involved in a given scene can be having their own character building conversation while the narrative and DM focus is on another character and scene elsewhere. It allows for scenes where someone might be off stealthily looking for leads, but still have the big bruiser types back at the inn be involved in the game and playing their characters.
I mean, and you can't discount that some of the biggest barriers to keeping up a long running D&D game are the logistics of getting people together to play, and jut being able to call in from anywhere is a big help in keeping a game going.
There's also theoretical benefits in automating a lot of the tricky math and keeping track of various things, but UI design is hard y'all, and I don't think anyone's done it quite that well yet.
posted by Zalzidrax at 12:25 PM on January 9, 2023 [2 favorites]
And I think a big part of it is that it's a group of friends that were originally online and met through online game RP servers and not in person. So a VTT game feels like an online RP with unlimited possibility and getting talk to your friends rather than trying to be a substitute for a tabletop game.
And because our group started from text base RP, we end up taking advantage of it being a hybrid text/voice format. Players can describe their character's subtle nonverbal reactions without interrupting the conversation or narration. Two characters who may not be involved in a given scene can be having their own character building conversation while the narrative and DM focus is on another character and scene elsewhere. It allows for scenes where someone might be off stealthily looking for leads, but still have the big bruiser types back at the inn be involved in the game and playing their characters.
I mean, and you can't discount that some of the biggest barriers to keeping up a long running D&D game are the logistics of getting people together to play, and jut being able to call in from anywhere is a big help in keeping a game going.
There's also theoretical benefits in automating a lot of the tricky math and keeping track of various things, but UI design is hard y'all, and I don't think anyone's done it quite that well yet.
posted by Zalzidrax at 12:25 PM on January 9, 2023 [2 favorites]
The thing to remember with VTTs is that they're not just for remote play - a lot of local players use VTTs for the simple fact that they do a lot of the heavy lifting for the DM and players. Someone brought up the 4e failure, and a large part of that was that the edition was built around the idea that it would use a VTT that never materialized, forcing a lot of bookkeeping on the players.
posted by NoxAeternum at 12:26 PM on January 9, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by NoxAeternum at 12:26 PM on January 9, 2023 [2 favorites]
D&D is a recognizable brand to casual players in a way that "Pathfinder" or "Dungeon Crawl Classics"...isn't
Perhaps in the way “Kleenex” is a recognizable brand in a way other facial tissues aren’t? I could very easily see an argument made that “D&D” has become a generic term for any tabletop roleplaying game or system.
posted by Thorzdad at 12:28 PM on January 9, 2023 [5 favorites]
Perhaps in the way “Kleenex” is a recognizable brand in a way other facial tissues aren’t? I could very easily see an argument made that “D&D” has become a generic term for any tabletop roleplaying game or system.
posted by Thorzdad at 12:28 PM on January 9, 2023 [5 favorites]
I would have thought everyone would know by now to be careful of a dragon’s clause. :(
D&D is not my game but I’m sorry for the folks that enjoy it and how this will impact them.
posted by curious nu at 12:28 PM on January 9, 2023 [6 favorites]
D&D is not my game but I’m sorry for the folks that enjoy it and how this will impact them.
posted by curious nu at 12:28 PM on January 9, 2023 [6 favorites]
The bottom line is that if Hasbro thinks I'll use a system that means Hasbro owns my terrible work, I'm going to use a different system. What if I write a terrible book based on my game and become inexplicably popular? Nah, Hasbro, hands off
posted by Jacen at 12:29 PM on January 9, 2023 [9 favorites]
posted by Jacen at 12:29 PM on January 9, 2023 [9 favorites]
The thing to remember with VTTs is that they're not just for remote play - a lot of local players use VTTs for the simple fact that they do a lot of the heavy lifting for the DM and players.
Enh. My objection to VTTs as a DM is that I actually spend more time on session prep - loading maps, finding tokens, etc. It actually makes me less likely to be able to wing something on the fly if the group goes somewhere I didn't anticipate, and more likely to make sure they move towards the encounters I've already created & setup in the system.
posted by nubs at 12:31 PM on January 9, 2023 [9 favorites]
Enh. My objection to VTTs as a DM is that I actually spend more time on session prep - loading maps, finding tokens, etc. It actually makes me less likely to be able to wing something on the fly if the group goes somewhere I didn't anticipate, and more likely to make sure they move towards the encounters I've already created & setup in the system.
posted by nubs at 12:31 PM on January 9, 2023 [9 favorites]
I think that's one of the big problems that VTT makers havent' figured out that they should address. Like, it's very *flashy* to have all these very beautiful assets and mapmakers and such, but when you're just DMing things on the fly, you might just need a quick grid map for some random crazy thing, and I think there's a lot of room for figuring out how to make that super easy and look decent without necessarily having the art be so specific it doesn't really work with the scene you're envisioning.
I mean, in Roll 20, I mostly do what I'd do in an actual tabletop. Have a big, pretty overworld map of the locale/continent, then break use a whiteboard or blank VTT map and scribble on it and use generic tokens. it's just jarring if you've been making everything very pretty up until that point and then suddenly it's basically graph paper with scribbled notes.
posted by Zalzidrax at 12:43 PM on January 9, 2023 [2 favorites]
I mean, in Roll 20, I mostly do what I'd do in an actual tabletop. Have a big, pretty overworld map of the locale/continent, then break use a whiteboard or blank VTT map and scribble on it and use generic tokens. it's just jarring if you've been making everything very pretty up until that point and then suddenly it's basically graph paper with scribbled notes.
posted by Zalzidrax at 12:43 PM on January 9, 2023 [2 favorites]
My objection to VTTs as a DM is that I actually spend more time on session prep - loading maps, finding tokens, etc.
Hard agree. Prepping an in-person game is much easier.
Wizards already sells "dungeon tiles," pieces of cardboard printed with a grid map and various bits of terrain such as walls, trees, gates, etc. I have often wished somebody would just make these modular bits available online so one could whip up a map just like assembling puzzle pieces.
posted by Gelatin at 12:51 PM on January 9, 2023 [2 favorites]
Hard agree. Prepping an in-person game is much easier.
Wizards already sells "dungeon tiles," pieces of cardboard printed with a grid map and various bits of terrain such as walls, trees, gates, etc. I have often wished somebody would just make these modular bits available online so one could whip up a map just like assembling puzzle pieces.
posted by Gelatin at 12:51 PM on January 9, 2023 [2 favorites]
Well, the good news is that I've been saving a certain vintage item for this very contingency, and it should solve all of our problems in a hurry.
*Produces an original First Edition Bag of Holding and proceeds to turn it inside out, causing the known universe to blink out of existence*
Ah, hell, I left a gelatinous cube in there. Help.
posted by loquacious at 12:55 PM on January 9, 2023 [13 favorites]
*Produces an original First Edition Bag of Holding and proceeds to turn it inside out, causing the known universe to blink out of existence*
Ah, hell, I left a gelatinous cube in there. Help.
posted by loquacious at 12:55 PM on January 9, 2023 [13 favorites]
Re: Critical Role: I don't think the live-play show or the Amazon show are published under the OGL, so this change doesn't seem to affect them. (Unless WOTC go super-aggressive and start claiming that all games played with their rules are derivative works?) The change also doesn't affect the books that CR has published through WOTC (Explorer's Guide to Wildemount and Call of the Netherdeep), but will affect CR's Tal'Dorei Reborn campaign setting. Or at least, new versions of it, since the current edition includes the then-current OGL 1.0(a) and is therefore OK to be published perpetually. Right?
posted by The Tensor at 1:07 PM on January 9, 2023
posted by The Tensor at 1:07 PM on January 9, 2023
Wizards already sells "dungeon tiles," pieces of cardboard printed with a grid map and various bits of terrain such as walls, trees, gates, etc. I have often wished somebody would just make these modular bits available online so one could whip up a map just like assembling puzzle pieces.
I mean, aren't these readily available online? I've bought a couple of bush, tree, and grass sets from the Roll20 market, and other elements (tower, dungeon tile, tavern) from third-party vendors.
posted by touchstone033 at 1:07 PM on January 9, 2023
I mean, aren't these readily available online? I've bought a couple of bush, tree, and grass sets from the Roll20 market, and other elements (tower, dungeon tile, tavern) from third-party vendors.
posted by touchstone033 at 1:07 PM on January 9, 2023
Or at least, new versions of it, since the current edition includes the then-current OGL 1.0(a) and is therefore OK to be published perpetually. Right?
The new OGL revokes OGL 1.0(a); "perpetual license" (as a legal term) doesn't mean what us lay folk think it means; the key missing phrase is apparently "irrevocable license". IANAL so I won't try to parse the fine details, but whether or not stuff that came out under OGL 1.0(a) is safe will likely depend on an outcome in a courtroom some years from now, in terms of how "perpetual" is interpreted, the intent of various parties in crafting 1.0, and if 1.1 is an update to 1.0 or so radically different that it should be treated a separate thing altogether.
posted by nubs at 1:21 PM on January 9, 2023
The new OGL revokes OGL 1.0(a); "perpetual license" (as a legal term) doesn't mean what us lay folk think it means; the key missing phrase is apparently "irrevocable license". IANAL so I won't try to parse the fine details, but whether or not stuff that came out under OGL 1.0(a) is safe will likely depend on an outcome in a courtroom some years from now, in terms of how "perpetual" is interpreted, the intent of various parties in crafting 1.0, and if 1.1 is an update to 1.0 or so radically different that it should be treated a separate thing altogether.
posted by nubs at 1:21 PM on January 9, 2023
2023 will be the year of GURPS on the tabletop!
posted by PresidentOfDinosaurs at 1:27 PM on January 9, 2023 [21 favorites]
posted by PresidentOfDinosaurs at 1:27 PM on January 9, 2023 [21 favorites]
Meh. Dungeons the Dragoning 40000 is already on their 7th edition.. Much better.
For those more into miniatures and wargames, I'll also gladly share the entire rules for BATTLEMACE 40 MILLION. Here goes:
THERE IS ONLY ONE TRUE WAY TO WIN BATTLEMACE 40 MILLION, AND ONE TRUE WAY TO LOSE THE GAME. BATTLEMACE 40 MILLION IS WON WHEN EVERYBODY AT THE TABLE IS HAVING FUN. BATTLEMACE 40 MILLION IS LOST WHEN EVERYBODY AT THE TABLE IS NOT HAVING FUN. THESE VICTORY CONDITIONS SUPERSEDE ALL OTHER VICTORY CONDITIONS AT A GAME.
BATTLEMACE 40MILLION IS IN THE CREATIVE COMMONS AND PUBLIC DOMAIN, ALWAYS HAS BEEN, ALWAYS WILL BE, AS A GIFT TO ALL MANKINDITY FROM THE GRAND PUBA OF THE MONARCHIUM OF FOLKS. ANY BLASPHEMETICUS WHO ATTEMPTS TO ASSERT COPYRIGHT OR TRADEMARK TO ANY MATERIAL SUBMITTED FOR BATTLEMACE 40 MILLION SHALL BE SUBJECTED TO ANNIHILATUS BY ADAPTUS URBANES (also known as the RAUM MARINEROS).
YOU CAN PLAY BATTLEMACE 40MILLION WITH ANY PIECES, SO LONG AS THEY ARE CLEARLY LABELED AND ACCEPTED BY ALL PARTIES IN A MATCH. a. You can use miniatures. b. You can use plastic pieces. c. You can use cardboard standies. d. You can use shiny rocks, or pogs, or flowers, so long as you clearly label the units.
THERE IS AND SHALL ALWAYS ONLY BE ONE EDITION OF BATTLEMACE 40 MILLION, AND THAT IS THE ETERNAL EDITION. a. Pieces and rules shall always be usable in BM 40M, not matter whether they are brand new, or ancient clay pieces from the Ancient Egyptian versions of the game.
LOVE YOUR BATTLE SIBLINGS EVEN IF THEY ARE BLASPHEMTRICIOUS ALIENOS SCUM.
While it is true that in the bleak sadness of the far faraway future there is only shooty shooty and punch punch ow, this is game, which is played for fun and camaraderie and mutual joy. Even if your Dark Elvis raiders get ROFLstomped, even if the other player is using an Ordo Mechagodzillius Super-Giant to ruin your careful plans, you shall shake hands and be civil to your game-mates. We are one community, whether you follow the Grand Poobah, Celestial Randomness, or the Urqish gods of Grok and Mrok.
REMEMBER THE SACRED MANTRA: "I must not be serious. Seriousness is the smile-killer. Seriousness is the little frown that bring total fun-nihilation. I will fart at my seriousness. I will permit my seriousness to bugger off to the Department of Motor Vehicles or some similar netherworld. And when it is gone I will turn my inner snark to see the path. Where the seriousness has gone there will be nothing. Only fun will remain."
THE GRAND POOBAH GUARDS US! SALUTATE!
That's it. That's the entire rules set for BATTLEMACE 40 MILLION
posted by LeRoienJaune at 1:31 PM on January 9, 2023 [6 favorites]
For those more into miniatures and wargames, I'll also gladly share the entire rules for BATTLEMACE 40 MILLION. Here goes:
THERE IS ONLY ONE TRUE WAY TO WIN BATTLEMACE 40 MILLION, AND ONE TRUE WAY TO LOSE THE GAME. BATTLEMACE 40 MILLION IS WON WHEN EVERYBODY AT THE TABLE IS HAVING FUN. BATTLEMACE 40 MILLION IS LOST WHEN EVERYBODY AT THE TABLE IS NOT HAVING FUN. THESE VICTORY CONDITIONS SUPERSEDE ALL OTHER VICTORY CONDITIONS AT A GAME.
BATTLEMACE 40MILLION IS IN THE CREATIVE COMMONS AND PUBLIC DOMAIN, ALWAYS HAS BEEN, ALWAYS WILL BE, AS A GIFT TO ALL MANKINDITY FROM THE GRAND PUBA OF THE MONARCHIUM OF FOLKS. ANY BLASPHEMETICUS WHO ATTEMPTS TO ASSERT COPYRIGHT OR TRADEMARK TO ANY MATERIAL SUBMITTED FOR BATTLEMACE 40 MILLION SHALL BE SUBJECTED TO ANNIHILATUS BY ADAPTUS URBANES (also known as the RAUM MARINEROS).
YOU CAN PLAY BATTLEMACE 40MILLION WITH ANY PIECES, SO LONG AS THEY ARE CLEARLY LABELED AND ACCEPTED BY ALL PARTIES IN A MATCH. a. You can use miniatures. b. You can use plastic pieces. c. You can use cardboard standies. d. You can use shiny rocks, or pogs, or flowers, so long as you clearly label the units.
THERE IS AND SHALL ALWAYS ONLY BE ONE EDITION OF BATTLEMACE 40 MILLION, AND THAT IS THE ETERNAL EDITION. a. Pieces and rules shall always be usable in BM 40M, not matter whether they are brand new, or ancient clay pieces from the Ancient Egyptian versions of the game.
LOVE YOUR BATTLE SIBLINGS EVEN IF THEY ARE BLASPHEMTRICIOUS ALIENOS SCUM.
While it is true that in the bleak sadness of the far faraway future there is only shooty shooty and punch punch ow, this is game, which is played for fun and camaraderie and mutual joy. Even if your Dark Elvis raiders get ROFLstomped, even if the other player is using an Ordo Mechagodzillius Super-Giant to ruin your careful plans, you shall shake hands and be civil to your game-mates. We are one community, whether you follow the Grand Poobah, Celestial Randomness, or the Urqish gods of Grok and Mrok.
REMEMBER THE SACRED MANTRA: "I must not be serious. Seriousness is the smile-killer. Seriousness is the little frown that bring total fun-nihilation. I will fart at my seriousness. I will permit my seriousness to bugger off to the Department of Motor Vehicles or some similar netherworld. And when it is gone I will turn my inner snark to see the path. Where the seriousness has gone there will be nothing. Only fun will remain."
THE GRAND POOBAH GUARDS US! SALUTATE!
That's it. That's the entire rules set for BATTLEMACE 40 MILLION
posted by LeRoienJaune at 1:31 PM on January 9, 2023 [6 favorites]
OGL 1.0(a) says the license you're granted by accepting it is "perpetual". I understand that WOTC is trying to say, "We withdraw 1.0(a) as a thing you can accept and publish under; use 1.1 instead"—that is, they're trying to revoke 1.0(a), which they may or may not be able to do—but is there any plausible argument that publishers who accepted the deal presented by 1.0(a) and received a "perpetual" license now no longer have a deal? Is even WOTC arguing that?
posted by The Tensor at 1:31 PM on January 9, 2023
posted by The Tensor at 1:31 PM on January 9, 2023
but is there any plausible argument that publishers who accepted the deal presented by 1.0(a) and received a "perpetual" license now no longer have a deal? Is even WOTC arguing that?
Again, not a lawyer, but having seen some legal discussions on this, my understanding is that "perpetual" refers to something that has no time limitation, but that doesn't mean that it cannot be ended/revoked/superseded/changed by a new agreement/clause/whatever.
In short, we are deep in the true territory of the rules lawyer now, and I am on the edge of failing my save vs. confusion.
posted by nubs at 1:44 PM on January 9, 2023 [1 favorite]
Again, not a lawyer, but having seen some legal discussions on this, my understanding is that "perpetual" refers to something that has no time limitation, but that doesn't mean that it cannot be ended/revoked/superseded/changed by a new agreement/clause/whatever.
In short, we are deep in the true territory of the rules lawyer now, and I am on the edge of failing my save vs. confusion.
posted by nubs at 1:44 PM on January 9, 2023 [1 favorite]
Nord Games is ready to fight this out in court. Either they've talked to their lawyers and feel confident about this, or they've decided that 1.1's a death sentence and it doesn't matter.
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/nordgames/elements-of-inspiration/posts/3704476
posted by Spike Glee at 1:46 PM on January 9, 2023 [2 favorites]
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/nordgames/elements-of-inspiration/posts/3704476
posted by Spike Glee at 1:46 PM on January 9, 2023 [2 favorites]
Didn't we have a post about Games Workshop (Warhammer 40,000) shutting down fan animations? I can't seem to find it. There are parallels there, although GW has copyrighted miniatures and lore people care about, where DnD doesn't.
posted by Monday, stony Monday at 1:46 PM on January 9, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by Monday, stony Monday at 1:46 PM on January 9, 2023 [1 favorite]
The most valuable thing about DnD is strong name recognition. (It certainly isn't the best TTRPG system rules wise.) Like, for most people DnD is synonymous with role playing games. Most people, even many nerds, don't even know other TTRPGs exist. So I think Hasbro can weather a period of time when DnD is associated with monopolistic business practices and corporate scumminess. After all, what else are people going to play?
But if big content creators switch to other game systems--or even start to discuss potential alternatives--that could really hurt Hasbro in the medium to long term. And IMO really help the TTRPG world have more diversity of games.
posted by overglow at 1:55 PM on January 9, 2023 [1 favorite]
But if big content creators switch to other game systems--or even start to discuss potential alternatives--that could really hurt Hasbro in the medium to long term. And IMO really help the TTRPG world have more diversity of games.
posted by overglow at 1:55 PM on January 9, 2023 [1 favorite]
My objection to VTTs as a DM is that I actually spend more time on session prep - loading maps, finding tokens, etc.
Fancy graphics are a trap. Cool to look at and all, but a trap. VTTs are a bit of a crutch too. They can do a lot, but all you can do with a VTT is what it offers you, a lot of the time. The things that look like powerful tools can end up actually being golden handcuffs when you want to do things the tool-makers or the scenario desingers didn't really anticipate.
There are online white bards out there that function as mapping tools. They use simple tokens. They don't require fancy art or assets. I've used one call shmeppy for a few years that does this, but there are a few more too. It looks like no hell, just coloured squares and shapes, but I've run maps where I've had lava spill down castle gates by free drawing orange squares all over, I've set up road-side ambushes on the fly. And with the cut and paste tools, had that same inn in a few different locales.
When we play in person, I use a 24by36 inch grid and markers, with coins for tokens. Very similar feel. Dice Dungeons make great D&D compatible coins too for inch/25mm grids too.
posted by bonehead at 1:55 PM on January 9, 2023 [3 favorites]
Fancy graphics are a trap. Cool to look at and all, but a trap. VTTs are a bit of a crutch too. They can do a lot, but all you can do with a VTT is what it offers you, a lot of the time. The things that look like powerful tools can end up actually being golden handcuffs when you want to do things the tool-makers or the scenario desingers didn't really anticipate.
There are online white bards out there that function as mapping tools. They use simple tokens. They don't require fancy art or assets. I've used one call shmeppy for a few years that does this, but there are a few more too. It looks like no hell, just coloured squares and shapes, but I've run maps where I've had lava spill down castle gates by free drawing orange squares all over, I've set up road-side ambushes on the fly. And with the cut and paste tools, had that same inn in a few different locales.
When we play in person, I use a 24by36 inch grid and markers, with coins for tokens. Very similar feel. Dice Dungeons make great D&D compatible coins too for inch/25mm grids too.
posted by bonehead at 1:55 PM on January 9, 2023 [3 favorites]
but is there any plausible argument that publishers who accepted the deal presented by 1.0(a) and received a "perpetual" license now no longer have a deal? Is even WOTC arguing that?
This is sorta in the more below text above, but also it's a lot of stuff. So.
There's at least two potential theories being bandied about, based on the leaked new license.
One is basically as nubs says -- that since the time OGL 1.0(a) was written, case law has established that 'perpetual' doesn't mean 'irrevocable', and that contracts nowadays that mean that would say 'irrevocable' specifically.
The other is rules lawyering about the meaning of 'authorized'. The OGL 1.0(a) states that you "may use any authorized version of this License to copy, modify and distribute any Open Game Content originally distributed under any version of this License.". To date, "authorized" in this context has been understood to mean "officially published by the owner of the D&D brand (WotC, later Hasbro)".
But, the new license states: "this agreement is…an update to the previously available OGL 1.0(a), which is no longer an authorized license agreement." What commenters are reading into this is that Hasbro is signaling that they are going to make the argument that they're not "revoking" anything, but that "authorized" means "on the enumerated list of license versions the owner of the D&D brand currently says are authorized".
Under that theory, they can simply state that 1.0(a) is no longer authorized and therefore nothing published under it has a valid license, and has to be re-licensed using 1.1 or pulled from the market.
posted by a faithful sock at 1:57 PM on January 9, 2023 [1 favorite]
This is sorta in the more below text above, but also it's a lot of stuff. So.
There's at least two potential theories being bandied about, based on the leaked new license.
One is basically as nubs says -- that since the time OGL 1.0(a) was written, case law has established that 'perpetual' doesn't mean 'irrevocable', and that contracts nowadays that mean that would say 'irrevocable' specifically.
The other is rules lawyering about the meaning of 'authorized'. The OGL 1.0(a) states that you "may use any authorized version of this License to copy, modify and distribute any Open Game Content originally distributed under any version of this License.". To date, "authorized" in this context has been understood to mean "officially published by the owner of the D&D brand (WotC, later Hasbro)".
But, the new license states: "this agreement is…an update to the previously available OGL 1.0(a), which is no longer an authorized license agreement." What commenters are reading into this is that Hasbro is signaling that they are going to make the argument that they're not "revoking" anything, but that "authorized" means "on the enumerated list of license versions the owner of the D&D brand currently says are authorized".
Under that theory, they can simply state that 1.0(a) is no longer authorized and therefore nothing published under it has a valid license, and has to be re-licensed using 1.1 or pulled from the market.
posted by a faithful sock at 1:57 PM on January 9, 2023 [1 favorite]
Time to highlight two of my favorite TTRPG policies on this. (and two of my favorite TTRPGs, but that'd be an FPP of its own)
"now is a great time to remind everyone of @Lancer_RPG's third party license which is
1.don't be a shithead
2.don't reprint the core book lol
3.put a cool logo on it" - LANCER 3p highlight reel
---
Powered by the Apocalypse
"If you've created a game inspired by Apocalypse World, and would like to publish it, please do. If you're using our words, you need our permission, per copyright law. If you aren't using our words, you don't need our permission, although of course we'd love to hear from you. Instead, we consider it appropriate and sufficient for you to mention Apocalypse World in your thanks, notes, or credits section.
It's completely up to you whether you call your game "Powered by the Apocalypse." If you'd like to use our PbtA logo in your game's book design or trade dress, ask us, and we'll grant permission for you to do so. This isn't a requirement of any sort.
[...]
PbtA Pay-It-Back (put on Lumpley Games crowdfunding projects)
As you probably know, we don't ask PbtA creators for any royalties or licensing fees. If you've published a successful PbtA game or product of your own, or made PbtA a successful part of your business, please consider backing at one of these levels. It's a completely voluntary way to show your appreciation and support."
posted by CrystalDave at 2:00 PM on January 9, 2023 [8 favorites]
"now is a great time to remind everyone of @Lancer_RPG's third party license which is
1.don't be a shithead
2.don't reprint the core book lol
3.put a cool logo on it" - LANCER 3p highlight reel
---
Powered by the Apocalypse
"If you've created a game inspired by Apocalypse World, and would like to publish it, please do. If you're using our words, you need our permission, per copyright law. If you aren't using our words, you don't need our permission, although of course we'd love to hear from you. Instead, we consider it appropriate and sufficient for you to mention Apocalypse World in your thanks, notes, or credits section.
It's completely up to you whether you call your game "Powered by the Apocalypse." If you'd like to use our PbtA logo in your game's book design or trade dress, ask us, and we'll grant permission for you to do so. This isn't a requirement of any sort.
[...]
PbtA Pay-It-Back (put on Lumpley Games crowdfunding projects)
As you probably know, we don't ask PbtA creators for any royalties or licensing fees. If you've published a successful PbtA game or product of your own, or made PbtA a successful part of your business, please consider backing at one of these levels. It's a completely voluntary way to show your appreciation and support."
posted by CrystalDave at 2:00 PM on January 9, 2023 [8 favorites]
Seems like there might be a precedent here: at some point there was an update from 1.0 to 1.0(a), right? Did material published under 1.0 suddenly become unpublishable?
posted by The Tensor at 2:02 PM on January 9, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by The Tensor at 2:02 PM on January 9, 2023 [1 favorite]
entirely predictable. any version of D&D that includes classes besides cleric, magic-user and fighting man reeks of the kind of unspeakable decadence that can only end in bitter tears and acrimony
posted by logicpunk at 2:04 PM on January 9, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by logicpunk at 2:04 PM on January 9, 2023 [4 favorites]
But do people really prefer playing D&D online to around a table?
I wouldn’t say it’s preferable but, as others have observed, it definitely beats not playing at all. And after a couple of years of doing so, I have found certain advantages. My own tale:
In 2019 I was running a tabletop game for four or five players (not D&D but GURPS Dungeon Fantasy, for what it’s worth). The pandemic situation early in 2020 put us on hiatus and when it seemed clear we weren’t reconvening swiftly, we thought we’d give Roll20 a try as an alternative. The better part of a hundred sessions later, we are pretty regularly playing weekly these days.
It hath it’s strengths. First off, we are no longer limited to players in the immediate vicinity. Two players live ~ an hour away, in opposite directions, and this is much easier for logistics. For that matter, we have expanded and have now had several regulars who live in the west coast when most of us are in the Great Lakes basin. And even in the more immediate sense there are emergent property advantages. A couple of sessions into our online game, one player — I’ll call him Dave, as that was his name — had a bit of bad luck when his character fell afoul of a medusa. Rather than sit quietly at the table while others sought a way to restore him, Dave asked if anyone would mind if he logged off and started preparing dinner. That would not have been an option if we’d all been sitting in my basement around a table.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 2:06 PM on January 9, 2023 [1 favorite]
I wouldn’t say it’s preferable but, as others have observed, it definitely beats not playing at all. And after a couple of years of doing so, I have found certain advantages. My own tale:
In 2019 I was running a tabletop game for four or five players (not D&D but GURPS Dungeon Fantasy, for what it’s worth). The pandemic situation early in 2020 put us on hiatus and when it seemed clear we weren’t reconvening swiftly, we thought we’d give Roll20 a try as an alternative. The better part of a hundred sessions later, we are pretty regularly playing weekly these days.
It hath it’s strengths. First off, we are no longer limited to players in the immediate vicinity. Two players live ~ an hour away, in opposite directions, and this is much easier for logistics. For that matter, we have expanded and have now had several regulars who live in the west coast when most of us are in the Great Lakes basin. And even in the more immediate sense there are emergent property advantages. A couple of sessions into our online game, one player — I’ll call him Dave, as that was his name — had a bit of bad luck when his character fell afoul of a medusa. Rather than sit quietly at the table while others sought a way to restore him, Dave asked if anyone would mind if he logged off and started preparing dinner. That would not have been an option if we’d all been sitting in my basement around a table.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 2:06 PM on January 9, 2023 [1 favorite]
But if big content creators switch to other game systems--or even start to discuss potential alternatives--that could really hurt Hasbro in the medium to long term
From my side, I don't think I've seen the TTRPG community react like this to anything ever. I'm already seeing people who do YouTube stuff around TTRPG topics talking about ending discussion of any WOTC products, focusing on other systems, etc. One 3rd party publisher has already said they'll go to court over this. Now, it may all be a lot of noise that amounts to nothing, but I keep coming back to the fact that WOTC are potentially taking a group like Critical Role (which appears to have gone radio silent on this topic) - right now a massive advertising asset - and turning them into an adversary.
It's an incredibly poor business decision whatever way it goes now, because at the very least you've taken a bunch of us who do this as a hobby - i.e, we spend money to play - and made us start bad mouthing WOTC and Hasbro. D&D might not be the entry point into the hobby it once was; I'm more concerned about the damage to the hobby overall, but you are only the king until you aren't and there's lots of systems out there that will happily take a shot at the crown.
Hasbro is already not doing well, financially, and WOTC was one of the few bright spots for them. I was already watching the OneD&D stuff with some skepticism because I figured they were moving to an online, subscription type model which I thought would be damaging overall...but this OGL stuff feels like a massive self-inflicted wound.
posted by nubs at 2:13 PM on January 9, 2023 [9 favorites]
From my side, I don't think I've seen the TTRPG community react like this to anything ever. I'm already seeing people who do YouTube stuff around TTRPG topics talking about ending discussion of any WOTC products, focusing on other systems, etc. One 3rd party publisher has already said they'll go to court over this. Now, it may all be a lot of noise that amounts to nothing, but I keep coming back to the fact that WOTC are potentially taking a group like Critical Role (which appears to have gone radio silent on this topic) - right now a massive advertising asset - and turning them into an adversary.
It's an incredibly poor business decision whatever way it goes now, because at the very least you've taken a bunch of us who do this as a hobby - i.e, we spend money to play - and made us start bad mouthing WOTC and Hasbro. D&D might not be the entry point into the hobby it once was; I'm more concerned about the damage to the hobby overall, but you are only the king until you aren't and there's lots of systems out there that will happily take a shot at the crown.
Hasbro is already not doing well, financially, and WOTC was one of the few bright spots for them. I was already watching the OneD&D stuff with some skepticism because I figured they were moving to an online, subscription type model which I thought would be damaging overall...but this OGL stuff feels like a massive self-inflicted wound.
posted by nubs at 2:13 PM on January 9, 2023 [9 favorites]
I run D&D clubs with 16-19 year olds in the college I lecture in. It is hard to underestimate the impact of Critical Role to the growth and popularity of the game and as one of the two entry points. The other being Stranger Things of course.
I think if Matthew Mercer decided this was the time to start the all new Critical Role RPG system it would be a serious threat, I think it would very quickly become a major competitor to D&D. Can seriously imagine the esteemed DM steepling his fingers and wondering how he would like to do this.
posted by brilliantmistake at 2:29 PM on January 9, 2023 [10 favorites]
I think if Matthew Mercer decided this was the time to start the all new Critical Role RPG system it would be a serious threat, I think it would very quickly become a major competitor to D&D. Can seriously imagine the esteemed DM steepling his fingers and wondering how he would like to do this.
posted by brilliantmistake at 2:29 PM on January 9, 2023 [10 favorites]
Critical Role started as a Pathfinder campaign - Percy's class (Gunslinger) needed to be ported to 5e when they made the leap. I doubt it would be hard for them to go back.
posted by NoxAeternum at 2:45 PM on January 9, 2023 [6 favorites]
posted by NoxAeternum at 2:45 PM on January 9, 2023 [6 favorites]
The Microsoft connection brought up by A Faithful Sock sure explains why this feels familiar.
posted by grokus at 2:48 PM on January 9, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by grokus at 2:48 PM on January 9, 2023 [5 favorites]
From the last link in the post:
On top of that, games such as ... Fudge, and Traveller—which use the 1.0 OGL as the backbone of their existence—will need to cease sales of upcoming products or give WotC ...
My first thought was that can't be right: Fudge is ~5 years older than the OGL and isn't even a D20 system; Traveller is like 23 years older than the OGL though it was at least in one instance released as a D20 game. AFAIK these are cases where publishers stuck an OGL on stuff that's unrelated to WotC's content, thinking they were themselves "authorizers" of the license allowing 3rd parties to use their stuff.
But looking at the Fudge 10th Anniversary edition, they sure did include clause 9 verbatim, which mentions Wizards being able to publish updates, and the confusion about what it could mean for WotC to "deauthorize" the earlier license seems especially complicated in the case of OpenD6 because the people who stuck an OGL on it aren't around anymore to "authorize" a new license ("What does the OGL 1.1 drama mean for OpenD6 and the future of Mini Six?").
I attempt to disbelieve tiny ecosystems in this situation have meaningful risks of being sued by WotC over content unrelated to WotC properties, but the fact that they're a named party in every instance of the license seems like a huge mess--they could back down completely today and 20 years of RPG material would still look like a minefield to build on as-is.
posted by Wobbuffet at 2:58 PM on January 9, 2023 [1 favorite]
On top of that, games such as ... Fudge, and Traveller—which use the 1.0 OGL as the backbone of their existence—will need to cease sales of upcoming products or give WotC ...
My first thought was that can't be right: Fudge is ~5 years older than the OGL and isn't even a D20 system; Traveller is like 23 years older than the OGL though it was at least in one instance released as a D20 game. AFAIK these are cases where publishers stuck an OGL on stuff that's unrelated to WotC's content, thinking they were themselves "authorizers" of the license allowing 3rd parties to use their stuff.
But looking at the Fudge 10th Anniversary edition, they sure did include clause 9 verbatim, which mentions Wizards being able to publish updates, and the confusion about what it could mean for WotC to "deauthorize" the earlier license seems especially complicated in the case of OpenD6 because the people who stuck an OGL on it aren't around anymore to "authorize" a new license ("What does the OGL 1.1 drama mean for OpenD6 and the future of Mini Six?").
I attempt to disbelieve tiny ecosystems in this situation have meaningful risks of being sued by WotC over content unrelated to WotC properties, but the fact that they're a named party in every instance of the license seems like a huge mess--they could back down completely today and 20 years of RPG material would still look like a minefield to build on as-is.
posted by Wobbuffet at 2:58 PM on January 9, 2023 [1 favorite]
RuneQuest / Glorantha and d100 systems are waiting with open arms. It's a great system, a great setting, and straightforward to pick up.
https://www.chaosium.com/runequest-quickstart-1/
posted by Ahniya at 3:56 PM on January 9, 2023 [3 favorites]
https://www.chaosium.com/runequest-quickstart-1/
posted by Ahniya at 3:56 PM on January 9, 2023 [3 favorites]
Surely this is the year of Runequest on the Tabletop...?
posted by The Tensor at 4:09 PM on January 9, 2023 [9 favorites]
posted by The Tensor at 4:09 PM on January 9, 2023 [9 favorites]
I still play 1st edition with a group of university friends … TSR/WotC/Hasbro hasn’t got a cent out of us in decades. We are all in different cities now, so we use Skype. No maps or minis or anything, just everyone with their paper character sheets, dice, and theatre of the mind.
posted by fimbulvetr at 4:11 PM on January 9, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by fimbulvetr at 4:11 PM on January 9, 2023 [4 favorites]
“Thank You. I Will Now Destroy My Own Channel (Ep 300)”—Dungeon Craft, 09 January 2023
Professor DungeonMaster destroys his own channel in epic fashion. What was meant to be a celebration of 100k subs and 300 episodes is put to the torch by a WoTC run amok.posted by ob1quixote at 4:16 PM on January 9, 2023 [3 favorites]
UPDATE: Noted 3rd part content creator The Griffon's Saddlebag confirmed on Twitter (Nitter backup) and by video on Instagram that the "draft" hosted at BattleZoo is the same document that was sent to them with contracts attached.
Also, just got a look at the Indemnity section, hoo boy:
posted by The Pluto Gangsta at 4:16 PM on January 9, 2023 [12 favorites]
Also, just got a look at the Indemnity section, hoo boy:
XI. INDEMNITY. If You get in legal trouble, or get Us in legal trouble, here’s what will happen:In other words, if a vexatious litigant wanted to destroy both commercial and non-commercial content creators, they could do so pretty easily by using WotC as a proxy defendant and forcing those content creators to foot WotC/Hasbro's legal bills.
A. If We are on the receiving end of any legal claims, fees, expenses, or penalties related to Your Licensed Works, You are responsible for paying all Our costs, including attorneys’ fees, costs of court, and any judgments or settlements.
B. If a claim is raised against You in connection with a Licensed Work, and You aren’t defending such a claim to Our satisfaction, We have the right, but not the obligation, to take over the defense of that claim against You. If We do so, You will reimburse Us for Our costs and expenses related to that defense.
C. We may, at Our discretion, seek to intervene in a case brought against You in order to join in the defense of the claims, while leaving You and Your counsel in charge of Your own defense. If We do so, We will defend at Our own expense and cost. As for Our IP, that’s Ours to defend – You don’t have any obligation to defend Dungeons & Dragons IP Yourself, and in fact wouldn’t have standing (the legal right) to do so even if We wanted You to.
posted by The Pluto Gangsta at 4:16 PM on January 9, 2023 [12 favorites]
Here's the thing. WOTC could undo this tomorrow, saying "our bad," and going back to 1.0(a), but a good amount of damage has already been done. The D&D fandom has been through this kind of thing twice now already. First was how draconian old TSR was in its waning days and which the OGL was made so permissive under D&D 3E explicitly to try to counteract. Then they figured they wanted more of that sweet 3rd party pie when they made 4E, which they had to undo as well.
Thrice bitten (does the math) I think about nine times shy. The square of the number of times one has been bitten, I would think.
posted by JHarris at 4:36 PM on January 9, 2023 [9 favorites]
Thrice bitten (does the math) I think about nine times shy. The square of the number of times one has been bitten, I would think.
posted by JHarris at 4:36 PM on January 9, 2023 [9 favorites]
So, Hasbro is defiantly killing the goose that Lay's the Golden Eggs on this one.
Even if they make a public statement that rolls everything back, the damage has been done.
Community / Creator trust has been broken.
If the current OGL is 'revoked' (whatever the hell that actually means), then trickle down effects that I've not seen mentioned much are:
- System and Knowledge wiki's will be (at best) shuttered/ archived, and (at worst) straight up deleted.
This could be an epic tidal wave of New Lost Media/ knowledge-hubs for TTRPG's
- Indie/ Individual creators who cannot afford or do not want to sign up to the 'new' OGL will straight up stop creating D&D content. Quite a few medium (I've seen youtube channels with 30K, 45K, and 50K followers and an entire indie publishing house) sized Youtubers already have left.
- Some digital works might get removed from DrivethruRPG and other similar digital Libraries/storefronts. This won't sit well with consumers.
- Writers and artists - freelancers - who work for WOTC - with published portfolios on OGL projects.. won't be a thing anymore. That's an entire professional skill set that won't be able to be incubated. Sure freelancers will still exist but not those familiar with the D&D tone/style/system/experience of that kind of publishing.
So sad and frankly incomprehensible.
They've chosen to shoot themselves squarely in the face for short term gain.
There is no way that percentages gained from those forced to sign the 'new' OGL can possibly match the entirety of what 3rd party publishers / the 3rd party ecosystem (Let's plays, Youtube, games already published under the existing OGL) generated / can generate, not to mention giving the biggest middle finger to the loudest ambassadors for the game - the Fans at large.
posted by Faintdreams at 4:40 PM on January 9, 2023 [5 favorites]
Even if they make a public statement that rolls everything back, the damage has been done.
Community / Creator trust has been broken.
If the current OGL is 'revoked' (whatever the hell that actually means), then trickle down effects that I've not seen mentioned much are:
- System and Knowledge wiki's will be (at best) shuttered/ archived, and (at worst) straight up deleted.
This could be an epic tidal wave of New Lost Media/ knowledge-hubs for TTRPG's
- Indie/ Individual creators who cannot afford or do not want to sign up to the 'new' OGL will straight up stop creating D&D content. Quite a few medium (I've seen youtube channels with 30K, 45K, and 50K followers and an entire indie publishing house) sized Youtubers already have left.
- Some digital works might get removed from DrivethruRPG and other similar digital Libraries/storefronts. This won't sit well with consumers.
- Writers and artists - freelancers - who work for WOTC - with published portfolios on OGL projects.. won't be a thing anymore. That's an entire professional skill set that won't be able to be incubated. Sure freelancers will still exist but not those familiar with the D&D tone/style/system/experience of that kind of publishing.
So sad and frankly incomprehensible.
They've chosen to shoot themselves squarely in the face for short term gain.
There is no way that percentages gained from those forced to sign the 'new' OGL can possibly match the entirety of what 3rd party publishers / the 3rd party ecosystem (Let's plays, Youtube, games already published under the existing OGL) generated / can generate, not to mention giving the biggest middle finger to the loudest ambassadors for the game - the Fans at large.
posted by Faintdreams at 4:40 PM on January 9, 2023 [5 favorites]
It's not the more established players like CR or Kobold Press that I'm concerned about. They're big enough and established enough to talk as near peers with Hasbro, and have the option to tell WotC to fuck off if things go bad. It's the mid-level fans-that-made-it big kickstarter stuff that is right in the WotC target zone. The MCDMs and the Drakkenheims who have been able to turn big Kickstarter successes into new creator-driven enterprises.
This is has potential to do great harm to player-driven community content. It's eating WotC's seed corn, but Hasbro seems focused more on next quarter than next year or two years from now.
posted by bonehead at 4:50 PM on January 9, 2023 [6 favorites]
This is has potential to do great harm to player-driven community content. It's eating WotC's seed corn, but Hasbro seems focused more on next quarter than next year or two years from now.
posted by bonehead at 4:50 PM on January 9, 2023 [6 favorites]
But the new OGL states that the Commercial Agreement “covers all commercial uses, whether they’re profitable or not.”
I'm fine with this part - especially since there is a $750k threshold for this to kick in. Yeah it sucks if your KS project ends up in the red, but this community is firmly on the side of "pay people up front, not only if you profit from their work." Why isn't the opposite true when you're licensing something from a corporation? If you're printing a book, does the printing press not get paid until you profit?
posted by thecjm at 5:20 PM on January 9, 2023
I'm fine with this part - especially since there is a $750k threshold for this to kick in. Yeah it sucks if your KS project ends up in the red, but this community is firmly on the side of "pay people up front, not only if you profit from their work." Why isn't the opposite true when you're licensing something from a corporation? If you're printing a book, does the printing press not get paid until you profit?
posted by thecjm at 5:20 PM on January 9, 2023
There's a difference between rentiers and creators.
posted by Zalzidrax at 5:34 PM on January 9, 2023 [10 favorites]
posted by Zalzidrax at 5:34 PM on January 9, 2023 [10 favorites]
I don't have the same kind of faith that the community will just move to another game, even though I think there are some great games out there. I think a lot of online 'actual play' stuff tends to rely on D&D and familiarity with those game mechanics, even though the more loose style most actual play tends to have is a poor fit for the fairly regimented play of D&D. Actual play that didn't rely on D&D tended to do worse.
Then again, the world is different, and I know The Adventure Zone and Dimension 20 have run whole campaigns with different systems, and Critical Role has done one-shots in different systems, and was originally a Pathfinder conversion. I think more viewers are familiar with the conventions of actual play that you maybe don't need D&D any more.
Anyway if more people get into running Blades in the Dark that'd be aces, thanks
posted by Merus at 5:37 PM on January 9, 2023 [4 favorites]
Then again, the world is different, and I know The Adventure Zone and Dimension 20 have run whole campaigns with different systems, and Critical Role has done one-shots in different systems, and was originally a Pathfinder conversion. I think more viewers are familiar with the conventions of actual play that you maybe don't need D&D any more.
Anyway if more people get into running Blades in the Dark that'd be aces, thanks
posted by Merus at 5:37 PM on January 9, 2023 [4 favorites]
Thirsty Sword Lesbians is my game of choice
posted by Jacen at 5:45 PM on January 9, 2023 [7 favorites]
posted by Jacen at 5:45 PM on January 9, 2023 [7 favorites]
Most people, even many nerds, don't even know other TTRPGs exist. So I think Hasbro can weather a period of time when DnD is associated with monopolistic business practices and corporate scumminess. After all, what else are people going to play?
I think it should be remembered that, in the wake of 4th Edition, Pathfinder was actually outselling D&D on store shelves. A lot of people do know there are alternatives, and if they have a reason not to play standard D&D, and a bunch of influencers tell them of the existence of other games, D&D could well fall back into the status of #2 game TTRPG again.
posted by JHarris at 6:20 PM on January 9, 2023 [6 favorites]
I think it should be remembered that, in the wake of 4th Edition, Pathfinder was actually outselling D&D on store shelves. A lot of people do know there are alternatives, and if they have a reason not to play standard D&D, and a bunch of influencers tell them of the existence of other games, D&D could well fall back into the status of #2 game TTRPG again.
posted by JHarris at 6:20 PM on January 9, 2023 [6 favorites]
I see people talking about boycotting the movie, too.
Yes, this is how to hit a corporation. Hit Hasbro directly in the cocaine. Boycott the stupid movie. Very high damage per round.
posted by eustatic at 8:49 PM on January 9, 2023 [5 favorites]
Yes, this is how to hit a corporation. Hit Hasbro directly in the cocaine. Boycott the stupid movie. Very high damage per round.
posted by eustatic at 8:49 PM on January 9, 2023 [5 favorites]
I gave up on D&D after they did a cross promotion with Crocs. That was the moment I knew that the Hasbro poisoning of D&D was complete. COVID and youtube/podcaster let's play types created the biggest boom in D&D in decades. It brought in so many new people and helped transition role playing into something a little more mainstream, but at the same time it has become a lifestyle brand and IP farm. There is vertical integration, brand crossovers, and disgusting amounts of merch.
I hope more people leave D&D (and Pathfinder and the whole OGL cottage industry) to explore the edges, although I worry about the content treadmill and pdf hustle finding its way into any of the friendly DIY spaces that I enjoy. I'm glad that people have been able to make money in the D&D space, but I've never thought that the monetization of homebrew was healthy for the community. Money is a corrupting influence, as always.
posted by forbiddencabinet at 8:50 PM on January 9, 2023 [3 favorites]
I hope more people leave D&D (and Pathfinder and the whole OGL cottage industry) to explore the edges, although I worry about the content treadmill and pdf hustle finding its way into any of the friendly DIY spaces that I enjoy. I'm glad that people have been able to make money in the D&D space, but I've never thought that the monetization of homebrew was healthy for the community. Money is a corrupting influence, as always.
posted by forbiddencabinet at 8:50 PM on January 9, 2023 [3 favorites]
* If they try to revoke it for already published content, I'm sure it would be litigated and disastrous for them PR-wise. A strategy might be to say, "Oh we don't mean this for existing published content". If it was to be litigated, their stated intentions in the 2004 FAQ would be relevant. It has since been removed from wizards.com, the link I provided is one copy of it.
From said FAQ:
"7. Can't Wizards of the Coast change the License in a way that I wouldn't like?
Yes, it could. However, the License already defines what will happen to content that has been previously distributed using an earlier version, in Section 9. As a result, even if Wizards made a change you disagreed with, you could continue to use an earlier, acceptable version at your option. In other words, there's no reason for Wizards to ever make a change that the community of people using the Open Gaming License would object to, because the community would just ignore the change anyway."
I'm no lawyer, but if I were in asked for a ruling on the situation, this would be damning for WotC/Hasbro's shenanigans.
posted by Dysk at 5:00 AM on January 10, 2023 [3 favorites]
From said FAQ:
"7. Can't Wizards of the Coast change the License in a way that I wouldn't like?
Yes, it could. However, the License already defines what will happen to content that has been previously distributed using an earlier version, in Section 9. As a result, even if Wizards made a change you disagreed with, you could continue to use an earlier, acceptable version at your option. In other words, there's no reason for Wizards to ever make a change that the community of people using the Open Gaming License would object to, because the community would just ignore the change anyway."
I'm no lawyer, but if I were in asked for a ruling on the situation, this would be damning for WotC/Hasbro's shenanigans.
posted by Dysk at 5:00 AM on January 10, 2023 [3 favorites]
I've played DnD since the 1970's. Seems about once a decade whoever owns it decides it isn't making enough money and tries to tighten up the licensing: each time it failed.
I suspect two things.
One tightening the licensing is in response to falling sales, not the cause.
Second, DnD isn't a very good business (especially for a large company).
posted by lowtide at 5:18 AM on January 10, 2023
I suspect two things.
One tightening the licensing is in response to falling sales, not the cause.
Second, DnD isn't a very good business (especially for a large company).
posted by lowtide at 5:18 AM on January 10, 2023
As a Magic: the Gathering player, I am not in the least bit surprised at the lengths that Hasbro will go to when it comes to ruining community goodwill in order to turn a quick buck.
posted by rhooke at 6:30 AM on January 10, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by rhooke at 6:30 AM on January 10, 2023 [5 favorites]
Remember the mega game sales itch.io did last year for Ukraine and transgender people in Texas? Both included a copy of Thirsty Sword Lesbians, and a couple of modules. Just saying.
(My game for the past 5 years or so has been Scion, but one of the players died, so there's no telling what we'll do next.)
posted by Spike Glee at 6:56 AM on January 10, 2023 [4 favorites]
(My game for the past 5 years or so has been Scion, but one of the players died, so there's no telling what we'll do next.)
posted by Spike Glee at 6:56 AM on January 10, 2023 [4 favorites]
This video seemed ok: Expert Contract Lawyer Explains WotC's New OGL 1.1 and What It Means. The lawyer, with lawyerly caveats, thinks Hasbro's case to try to de-authorize the OGL 1.0a is very weak for reasons I don't think I've seen discussed upthread.
IaNaL, but in reading around about this, I wonder if this is part of what's emboldening Hasbro: Triple Town vs. Yeti Town. I linked that article because it echoes my feeling reading the decision: wtf. To my layman's eyes it seemed obvious, given the common wisdom about how you can duplicate all the game mechanics you want, that the Yeti Town guys had done enough to differentiate their despicable ripoff. The judge seems to agree, he really lays out why the Triple Town guys' arguments don't fly, but then he says sure it could go to court.
His "reasoning" seems to be that while copyright law as extended to games seems very weak because you can't copyright "any idea, procedure, process, system, method of operation, concept, principle, or discovery, systems, ideas, etc.", and even with all the functionality/scenes a faire shit -- nevertheless, copyright for literary works seems pretty strong, and the judge is being like, hey maybe that applies here, why not uwu?:
posted by fleacircus at 7:43 AM on January 10, 2023 [3 favorites]
IaNaL, but in reading around about this, I wonder if this is part of what's emboldening Hasbro: Triple Town vs. Yeti Town. I linked that article because it echoes my feeling reading the decision: wtf. To my layman's eyes it seemed obvious, given the common wisdom about how you can duplicate all the game mechanics you want, that the Yeti Town guys had done enough to differentiate their despicable ripoff. The judge seems to agree, he really lays out why the Triple Town guys' arguments don't fly, but then he says sure it could go to court.
His "reasoning" seems to be that while copyright law as extended to games seems very weak because you can't copyright "any idea, procedure, process, system, method of operation, concept, principle, or discovery, systems, ideas, etc.", and even with all the functionality/scenes a faire shit -- nevertheless, copyright for literary works seems pretty strong, and the judge is being like, hey maybe that applies here, why not uwu?:
In a literary work like a novel or screenplay, the “measurable, objective elements that constitute [its] expression” include the “plot, theme, dialogue, mood, setting, pace, characters, and sequence of events . . . .” [...] A video game, much like a screenplay expressed in a film, also has elements of plot, theme, dialogue, mood, setting, pace, and character. Spry Fox took the idea underlying Triple Town and expressed it with its own characters, its own setting, and more. These objective elements of expression are within the scope of Spry Fox’s copyright.I don't really care what happens to mainline D&D, but I do like my OSR retroclones, and to me they look like they're on shakier than YetiTown. Maybe the big game companies have seen a crack in the law and are ready to try to wriggle their monstrous bodies through.
posted by fleacircus at 7:43 AM on January 10, 2023 [3 favorites]
Here's another view things from a small OGL-using publisher, that explores just how bad the new license is.
posted by fleacircus at 8:24 AM on January 10, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by fleacircus at 8:24 AM on January 10, 2023 [5 favorites]
Longtime D&D player (since 1978!) here. The purpose of 1.1 is to 1) draw D&D players into an entirely virtual experience, what's called a VTT or virtual tabletop, and 2) make that virtual environment a walled garden, where players pay subscription fees for both access to game features and virtual tokens, like cooler-looking monsters on the digital tabletop. It will backfire spectacularly, as others have pointed out.
Hasbro's goal here is to make players pay to play. Normally, it's just the DM who pays for most of the books, and the players (though they may buy books) are freeloaders, from Hasbro's POV, and "need" to be monetized. By forcing third-party creators into 1.1, Hasbro puts that content into their walled garden, rips off the third-party creators and makes the experience shittier for everyone except their investors.
The reason it won't work is threefold: 1) it's highly questionable, legally, as others here have pointed out, 2) you don't actually need a VTT at all to play the game—most people prefer in-person, and when we had to go virtual for the first part of the pandemic, we used Discord and Google Slides, and even though our dungeon didn't "look like a dungeon", it's all theatre of the mind anyway, so nobody cared that Bob the Barbarian was a blue circle with a B inside, and 3) the real problem for Hasbro, 5th edition D&D is frankly a crap system for all but the very most inexperienced of players, and any halfway decent DM/players mod the crap out of the system in order to make it work right, and the way WOTC has their digital resources set up really do not permit that sort of modding. Tables are going to quickly find out modding is essentially impossible, and either switch to in-person modded, a third-party VTT or a different gaming system entirely, either out of practicality or principled opposition to what Hasbro is trying to do. We all moved to Pathfinder 2e, which is a much better game that's a reskin of an earlier edition of D&D.
posted by outgrown_hobnail at 8:29 AM on January 10, 2023 [15 favorites]
Hasbro's goal here is to make players pay to play. Normally, it's just the DM who pays for most of the books, and the players (though they may buy books) are freeloaders, from Hasbro's POV, and "need" to be monetized. By forcing third-party creators into 1.1, Hasbro puts that content into their walled garden, rips off the third-party creators and makes the experience shittier for everyone except their investors.
The reason it won't work is threefold: 1) it's highly questionable, legally, as others here have pointed out, 2) you don't actually need a VTT at all to play the game—most people prefer in-person, and when we had to go virtual for the first part of the pandemic, we used Discord and Google Slides, and even though our dungeon didn't "look like a dungeon", it's all theatre of the mind anyway, so nobody cared that Bob the Barbarian was a blue circle with a B inside, and 3) the real problem for Hasbro, 5th edition D&D is frankly a crap system for all but the very most inexperienced of players, and any halfway decent DM/players mod the crap out of the system in order to make it work right, and the way WOTC has their digital resources set up really do not permit that sort of modding. Tables are going to quickly find out modding is essentially impossible, and either switch to in-person modded, a third-party VTT or a different gaming system entirely, either out of practicality or principled opposition to what Hasbro is trying to do. We all moved to Pathfinder 2e, which is a much better game that's a reskin of an earlier edition of D&D.
posted by outgrown_hobnail at 8:29 AM on January 10, 2023 [15 favorites]
The lawyer, with lawyerly caveats, thinks Hasbro's case to try to de-authorize the OGL 1.0a is very weak for reasons I don't think I've seen discussed upthread.
That might be, but who has the funds to go through the litigation to find out? And for those that do, how likely is it that they go for a settlement that carves out an exception for them, but not a judgement that settles things for everyone else?
posted by nubs at 9:34 AM on January 10, 2023 [1 favorite]
That might be, but who has the funds to go through the litigation to find out? And for those that do, how likely is it that they go for a settlement that carves out an exception for them, but not a judgement that settles things for everyone else?
posted by nubs at 9:34 AM on January 10, 2023 [1 favorite]
2nd UPDATE: Kobold Press announces work on "a new Core Fantasy tabletop ruleset: available, open, and subscription-free"
posted by The Pluto Gangsta at 10:03 AM on January 10, 2023 [13 favorites]
posted by The Pluto Gangsta at 10:03 AM on January 10, 2023 [13 favorites]
Bundle of Holding didn't waste time lining up a bunch of Non-OGL Fantasy games at a discount. Meanwhile, their sale on Blades in the Dark has 1 day left, and the related sale on Wicked Ones has a week.
posted by Wobbuffet at 10:41 AM on January 10, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by Wobbuffet at 10:41 AM on January 10, 2023 [4 favorites]
Onyx Press has a sale on for their OGL stock as well.
http://theonyxpath.com/new-year-new-game-sale-plus-50-off-ogl-titles/
And we have an official response;
We know you have questions about the OGL and we will be sharing more soon. Thank you for your patience.
Well that clears things up.
Also Paramount Plus has announced a D&D series. You can guess what the responses there are.
posted by Spike Glee at 10:56 AM on January 10, 2023 [3 favorites]
http://theonyxpath.com/new-year-new-game-sale-plus-50-off-ogl-titles/
And we have an official response;
We know you have questions about the OGL and we will be sharing more soon. Thank you for your patience.
Well that clears things up.
Also Paramount Plus has announced a D&D series. You can guess what the responses there are.
posted by Spike Glee at 10:56 AM on January 10, 2023 [3 favorites]
That might be, but who has the funds to go through the litigation to find out? And for those that do, how likely is it that they go for a settlement that carves out an exception for them, but not a judgement that settles things for everyone else?
Yeah the other thing I linked to brings up these points, and more.
I think if e.g. Paizo does get a immediate dismissal (like the Yeti Town folks were probably sure they would get), that might apply to everyone, though? I'm not a lawyer.
posted by fleacircus at 11:10 AM on January 10, 2023
Yeah the other thing I linked to brings up these points, and more.
I think if e.g. Paizo does get a immediate dismissal (like the Yeti Town folks were probably sure they would get), that might apply to everyone, though? I'm not a lawyer.
posted by fleacircus at 11:10 AM on January 10, 2023
Yeah, sorry, I replied before I saw your other link which lays out some of the possible ways this goes from here really well I think.
Anyways, I guess it looks like the Mouth of Sauron might speak soon, so we will see if any clarity emerges.
posted by nubs at 12:12 PM on January 10, 2023
Anyways, I guess it looks like the Mouth of Sauron might speak soon, so we will see if any clarity emerges.
posted by nubs at 12:12 PM on January 10, 2023
Paizo could ask for an injunction preventing WotC from "un-authorizing" the OGL1.0a, which would benefit everyone for a period of time, even if it was for solely selfish reasons.
posted by The Pluto Gangsta at 12:33 PM on January 10, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by The Pluto Gangsta at 12:33 PM on January 10, 2023 [1 favorite]
> I see people talking about boycotting the movie, too. It looks like it's going to be a lot of fun, but if Hasbro goes through with this, I can't see myself paying money for the movie, either.
> Yes, this is how to hit a corporation. Hit Hasbro directly in the cocaine. Boycott the stupid movie. Very high damage per round.
> Also Paramount Plus has announced a D&D series. You can guess what the responses there are.Don't stop at just Hasbro's D&D products. Hasbro has a new Transformers movie and video game coming out too; I'd suggest boycotting both and letting Hasbro clearly know why you're doing it. I've loved Transformers since pre-schooler Me unrelentingly begged my mom to order me a G1 Soundwave out of the Service Merchandise catalog, but I'll be damned if I contribute a single dime to Hasbro's profits while they attempt to fuck over the OGL dependent small publishers.
Live by the profits, Hasbro, die by the profits.
posted by Fiberoptic Zebroid and The Hypnagogic Jerks at 2:25 PM on January 10, 2023 [4 favorites]
Plug for D&D-free Coyote and Crow, a world and rulebook made entirely by indigenous authors and artists (and with which for the record I am entirely unaffiliated). Current license status: "If you’re interested in partnering with or working with Coyote & Crow, please do get in touch through our contact form on this site. While we aren’t currently hiring, I always like connecting with writers, artists, editors, etc, especially Native folks. In terms of partnerships, I’d really love to see some more folks step up with ideas for how they’d like to use the C&C license. I’m absolutely willing to license out this world to inventive folks. If you’ve got a C&C Saga book you’d like to write or draw, a board game you’d like to make, a craft or merch idea, I don’t want to stop you. Talk to me!"
posted by solotoro at 5:10 PM on January 10, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by solotoro at 5:10 PM on January 10, 2023 [5 favorites]
One thing I wonder is that for the very large (popular) publishers, WOTC might engage in a specific and rewarding relationship in order to keep the fans on their side. Many people above have mentioned the popularity of Critical Role's IP, for example, and I could easily see Wizards/Hasbro entering a specific contract or even purchasing their IP outright to keep them on their side. I do hope that these large third party creators do "remember their roots", though, and that it would be closing the door behind them to jump to the bigger ship.
posted by Metro Gnome at 5:12 PM on January 10, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by Metro Gnome at 5:12 PM on January 10, 2023 [1 favorite]
Paizo could ask for an injunction preventing WotC from "un-authorizing" the OGL1.0a, which would benefit everyone for a period of time, even if it was for solely selfish reasons.
I think it would just prolong the sense of uncertainty for many; people need to make decisions about continuing or stopping projects now.
posted by nubs at 5:16 PM on January 10, 2023 [1 favorite]
I think it would just prolong the sense of uncertainty for many; people need to make decisions about continuing or stopping projects now.
posted by nubs at 5:16 PM on January 10, 2023 [1 favorite]
The EFF has chimed in. They think that the license in revokable. I don't think that they've seen the old text from the website or the authors comments, though.
posted by Spike Glee at 7:52 PM on January 10, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by Spike Glee at 7:52 PM on January 10, 2023 [4 favorites]
A friend of mine who's an accountant linked this analysis (FB) of what's going on inside Hasbro. It jibes with other things I've read about Hasbro and is pretty depressing even before you get to the end where the writer is just spitballing in scary directions.
posted by gentlyepigrams at 8:12 PM on January 10, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by gentlyepigrams at 8:12 PM on January 10, 2023 [4 favorites]
Gotta hand it to them. They could have simply taken the more popular modules and realms and turned them into Game of Thrones / Marvel Cinematic Universe. But who needs that kind of boring vision when instead you can tank the brand by shitting all over the fans. I’m not sure how that will make money for them, but at least it is original.
posted by interogative mood at 8:47 PM on January 10, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by interogative mood at 8:47 PM on January 10, 2023 [2 favorites]
penguinz0, a YouTuber with 12 million subscribers, has released a video about this titled Most Delusional Company Ever. It already has nearly 700k views. In it, penguinz0 calls the new OGL license "a nonsensical, greedy change" and "probably the most delusional company move I've seen since tumblr banned porn."
posted by overglow at 10:19 PM on January 10, 2023 [6 favorites]
posted by overglow at 10:19 PM on January 10, 2023 [6 favorites]
I compiled a list of some free rpg systems over on cohost.
People are (rightly) flipping out about stuff going on with D&D, and looking for alternatives and yes, pathfinder, PBTA & Forged in the Dark stuff are great, but what if you got zero dollars?
I gotchu
posted by juv3nal at 10:47 PM on January 10, 2023 [5 favorites]
People are (rightly) flipping out about stuff going on with D&D, and looking for alternatives and yes, pathfinder, PBTA & Forged in the Dark stuff are great, but what if you got zero dollars?
I gotchu
posted by juv3nal at 10:47 PM on January 10, 2023 [5 favorites]
I am not now, nor have I ever been a CEO,
BUT
If you're company ever has to make an announcement, that they are prepareing an announcement, - something has gone catastrophically *wrong*.
posted by Faintdreams at 7:38 AM on January 11, 2023 [5 favorites]
BUT
If you're company ever has to make an announcement, that they are prepareing an announcement, - something has gone catastrophically *wrong*.
posted by Faintdreams at 7:38 AM on January 11, 2023 [5 favorites]
There is a vast world of retroclones out there, many of them cheap or free. Many of them apply the OGL license to cover their butts, but seeing as how rules are not copyrightable generally they don't really have to.
Beyond that, TTRPG production is one of the most expansive game genres there is. You don't have to make a board, you don't need full-color printing or expensive binding, you don't really need printing at all, you don't have to learn to code, you don't have to have many, or any, graphic assets, you don't need board pieces of cardboard tiles or cards, and everyone can get their own dice where they want for little money. I know of no kind of game that has a lower overhead for un-legally-encumbered creators except kids goofing around on a playground.
It is not hard at all to make a game that plays in a similar style of D&D but without using any of its rules, if it even comes to that. D&D sticks around mostly because of its legacy and PR. As we saw with Pathfinder, if most people have a good excuse to abandon it, they will.
And now, purely as a self-indulgence: what would I do? Use D%, D12s or even 3d6 for action resolution. Consolidate classes, but maybe add some optional crunch. Reduce the scale of hit points. Maybe combine to-hit and damage into one roll, and have each side roll initiative for their whole group. Use morale for monsters. Give characters more non-mechanical perks as they gain levels, like minions, titles and strongholds. I've always liked experience points as a kind of numerical record of a character's accomplishments, but I'd slow down character growth by half, and decrease the power gain at each level. On the other hand I'd remove the ultimate cap to advancement. Make the base game more realistic in terms of wounds and death, but put flamboyant magic and powers and weird races in optional rules--most players may end up playing that way, but even so it's worth keeping the base game pretty grounded. Focus on feat-like add-on abilities with prerequisites, so that it looks almost like a skill tree. Maybe introduce gaining abilities outside of the level system, perhaps by allowing players to pay experience points for them directly.
posted by JHarris at 8:07 AM on January 11, 2023 [5 favorites]
Beyond that, TTRPG production is one of the most expansive game genres there is. You don't have to make a board, you don't need full-color printing or expensive binding, you don't really need printing at all, you don't have to learn to code, you don't have to have many, or any, graphic assets, you don't need board pieces of cardboard tiles or cards, and everyone can get their own dice where they want for little money. I know of no kind of game that has a lower overhead for un-legally-encumbered creators except kids goofing around on a playground.
It is not hard at all to make a game that plays in a similar style of D&D but without using any of its rules, if it even comes to that. D&D sticks around mostly because of its legacy and PR. As we saw with Pathfinder, if most people have a good excuse to abandon it, they will.
And now, purely as a self-indulgence: what would I do? Use D%, D12s or even 3d6 for action resolution. Consolidate classes, but maybe add some optional crunch. Reduce the scale of hit points. Maybe combine to-hit and damage into one roll, and have each side roll initiative for their whole group. Use morale for monsters. Give characters more non-mechanical perks as they gain levels, like minions, titles and strongholds. I've always liked experience points as a kind of numerical record of a character's accomplishments, but I'd slow down character growth by half, and decrease the power gain at each level. On the other hand I'd remove the ultimate cap to advancement. Make the base game more realistic in terms of wounds and death, but put flamboyant magic and powers and weird races in optional rules--most players may end up playing that way, but even so it's worth keeping the base game pretty grounded. Focus on feat-like add-on abilities with prerequisites, so that it looks almost like a skill tree. Maybe introduce gaining abilities outside of the level system, perhaps by allowing players to pay experience points for them directly.
posted by JHarris at 8:07 AM on January 11, 2023 [5 favorites]
In the category of free RPGs, here's a great pre-OGL example a friend published decades ago and which still has a live web page: SHERPA
Based on his format and request, I'm not deep linking to the game itself, but there is a link to it lower on that page.
Steffan is of course the author of FUDGE in the early 90's. For a long time this was actually the system fo which I had my longest campaign - in part due to the availability of IRC to keep things going.
FUDGE went on to inspire FATE and a whole family tree of derivative RPGs. This sort of clamping down on rules and IP will inevitably generate great although more scattered, creativity. I'm finding it hard to not just keep rubber-necking at the whole situation.
posted by meinvt at 8:29 AM on January 11, 2023 [3 favorites]
Based on his format and request, I'm not deep linking to the game itself, but there is a link to it lower on that page.
Steffan is of course the author of FUDGE in the early 90's. For a long time this was actually the system fo which I had my longest campaign - in part due to the availability of IRC to keep things going.
FUDGE went on to inspire FATE and a whole family tree of derivative RPGs. This sort of clamping down on rules and IP will inevitably generate great although more scattered, creativity. I'm finding it hard to not just keep rubber-necking at the whole situation.
posted by meinvt at 8:29 AM on January 11, 2023 [3 favorites]
I was a veteran of The Forge in the early 2000s. I loved the era of System Does Matter and love for tiny, outcome-focused rulesets that encoded the types of stories you're expected to tell into the mechanics, instead of just continually bashing and re-bashing Napoleonic Wargaming to appeal to people who read mid-century fantasy novels. I liked even the games that leaned slightly back to their roots, and found the rediscovery of the lost design elements of first edition D&D somewhat fascinating.
But I lost touch with everyone from the Forge Diaspora after it was clear everyone was riding back into a 1990s model of TTRPGs as vast complicated sourcebooks and rulebooks that spent more column inches on rules for drowning or falling damage than heartbreak or dramatic tension. The "Old-School Renaissance" left me cold, because those old-school games were trying to create Nethack, and we have Nethack already. I don't find a rulebook that looks like doing US taxes fun any more, and I just want to get together and tell stories with people.
So yeah, I'm not surprised that the mentality of these publishers is "No no: we tell you what the game is, and how to play, and with what and where and for how much money." These systems were always engineered around a "Master" (their own actual execrable word for it!) who has absolute control of the world, and hoards Director Stance away from the players as much as possible. Is it any surprise that this is the ultimate approach they take?
Yeah, FUDGE and FATE are kind of nice middle-ground GURPS-killers. RISUS is still free and fun and light-hearted and easy to get into with a group. It's a pity Prime-Time Adventures was always proprietary, but it's all about sitting down with folks and running your own collaborative ensemble-cast TV show, which can be appropriation of your favourites or a new setting you all invent together. Heck, if you want something more traditional and fallen-world fantasy-ish, The Shadow of Yesterday should still be unencumbered, and that was a fun system: players were working to save the universe by Ascending at any one of their skills, whether that was singing or climbing or anything you like.
I hope that the systems that survive only by Selling More Sourcebooks stop dominating the universe of this kind of story game. I hope we can move past the Stranger Things nostalgia wave for D&D, and just have fun creating stories and worlds together.
No gods, no masters, no TSR, no WoTC.
posted by rum-soaked space hobo at 10:23 AM on January 11, 2023 [3 favorites]
But I lost touch with everyone from the Forge Diaspora after it was clear everyone was riding back into a 1990s model of TTRPGs as vast complicated sourcebooks and rulebooks that spent more column inches on rules for drowning or falling damage than heartbreak or dramatic tension. The "Old-School Renaissance" left me cold, because those old-school games were trying to create Nethack, and we have Nethack already. I don't find a rulebook that looks like doing US taxes fun any more, and I just want to get together and tell stories with people.
So yeah, I'm not surprised that the mentality of these publishers is "No no: we tell you what the game is, and how to play, and with what and where and for how much money." These systems were always engineered around a "Master" (their own actual execrable word for it!) who has absolute control of the world, and hoards Director Stance away from the players as much as possible. Is it any surprise that this is the ultimate approach they take?
Yeah, FUDGE and FATE are kind of nice middle-ground GURPS-killers. RISUS is still free and fun and light-hearted and easy to get into with a group. It's a pity Prime-Time Adventures was always proprietary, but it's all about sitting down with folks and running your own collaborative ensemble-cast TV show, which can be appropriation of your favourites or a new setting you all invent together. Heck, if you want something more traditional and fallen-world fantasy-ish, The Shadow of Yesterday should still be unencumbered, and that was a fun system: players were working to save the universe by Ascending at any one of their skills, whether that was singing or climbing or anything you like.
I hope that the systems that survive only by Selling More Sourcebooks stop dominating the universe of this kind of story game. I hope we can move past the Stranger Things nostalgia wave for D&D, and just have fun creating stories and worlds together.
No gods, no masters, no TSR, no WoTC.
posted by rum-soaked space hobo at 10:23 AM on January 11, 2023 [3 favorites]
...but seeing as how rules are not copyrightable generally they don't really have to.
[Duplicating a comment I made on Reddit]
I see a lot of confident statements to this effect, but I worry it's a much trickier legal question than everyone seems to believe. If you make a clone of BECMI, for example, you're going to need to include the to-hit table. Note that some of the numbers do not follow the obvious implied mathematical progression—I've highlighted these in red. If you reproduce that table exactly, even if you reformat it, are you violating copyright? It's easy to claim that's totally fine, but I suspect the real answer is, "Nobody knows because it's never been tested in court."
[extending the comment]
And there are a LOT of tables in old-school D&D. Equipment lists, money conversion, lists of spells, weapons (cost and damage), armor types, saving throws... Those aren't "facts about the universe" tables, they're made up. I don't think we can be 100% sure a court wouldn't consider them copyrightable "expression".
If you tell me, "There's no way WOTC can copyright rolling a d20 and comparing to some target value," I think I believe you. But if you tell me, "There's no way WOTC can copyright the Thief's percentage-to-succeed-by-level table," I'm much more skeptical.
posted by The Tensor at 11:07 AM on January 11, 2023 [3 favorites]
[Duplicating a comment I made on Reddit]
I see a lot of confident statements to this effect, but I worry it's a much trickier legal question than everyone seems to believe. If you make a clone of BECMI, for example, you're going to need to include the to-hit table. Note that some of the numbers do not follow the obvious implied mathematical progression—I've highlighted these in red. If you reproduce that table exactly, even if you reformat it, are you violating copyright? It's easy to claim that's totally fine, but I suspect the real answer is, "Nobody knows because it's never been tested in court."
[extending the comment]
And there are a LOT of tables in old-school D&D. Equipment lists, money conversion, lists of spells, weapons (cost and damage), armor types, saving throws... Those aren't "facts about the universe" tables, they're made up. I don't think we can be 100% sure a court wouldn't consider them copyrightable "expression".
If you tell me, "There's no way WOTC can copyright rolling a d20 and comparing to some target value," I think I believe you. But if you tell me, "There's no way WOTC can copyright the Thief's percentage-to-succeed-by-level table," I'm much more skeptical.
posted by The Tensor at 11:07 AM on January 11, 2023 [3 favorites]
A few years ago penguinz0 unleashed his followers to harass a friend of mine with a poorly informed hot take. I loathe him, but I can affirm that his ability to incite a crowd of passionate followers is legit. This is like if Trump/QAnon started getting involved ugh.
posted by interogative mood at 11:36 AM on January 11, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by interogative mood at 11:36 AM on January 11, 2023 [4 favorites]
Oof, good to know and thank you for speaking up, interogative mood!
posted by overglow at 11:53 AM on January 11, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by overglow at 11:53 AM on January 11, 2023 [2 favorites]
m not surprised that the mentality of these publishers is "No no: we tell you what the game is, and how to play, and with what and where and for how much money." These systems were always engineered around a "Master" (their own actual execrable word for it!) who has absolute control of the world, and hoards Director Stance away from the players as much as possible. Is it any surprise that this is the ultimate approach they take?
I'm going to be honest and say that I don't think the mentality of the C-suite of the publisher in this case even understands what the game is to the level you are describing. To them it is just another product to be sold, alongside everything else; I suspect they would be surprised to learn that there's as many different ways of playing their product as there are tables that use it. The whole community has been reminded that it's our creativity that makes the game what it is, and that extends to what the game itself is, and that is true regardless of how you choose to play and the roles everyone at the table takes.
posted by nubs at 1:09 PM on January 11, 2023 [9 favorites]
I'm going to be honest and say that I don't think the mentality of the C-suite of the publisher in this case even understands what the game is to the level you are describing. To them it is just another product to be sold, alongside everything else; I suspect they would be surprised to learn that there's as many different ways of playing their product as there are tables that use it. The whole community has been reminded that it's our creativity that makes the game what it is, and that extends to what the game itself is, and that is true regardless of how you choose to play and the roles everyone at the table takes.
posted by nubs at 1:09 PM on January 11, 2023 [9 favorites]
I see a lot of confident statements to this effect, but I worry it's a much trickier legal question than everyone seems to believe. If you make a clone of BECMI, for example, you're going to need to include the to-hit table.
They handle this generally by not including the to-hit table precisely. Many of the numerical facts of the game are produced 90% from a formula; where the chart deviates from the formula, they can just use the formula anyway. Whether a fighter's to-hit is exactly the same as per Gygax at a given level is a minor issue, after all. Retro-clones are not made to be exactly old-school D&D, but an approximation that improves, or at least changes, it subtly, like by using current-day ascending AC or using the 3E-ish stat bonus system (which, I discovered personally from reading the source code to the roguelike game Omega, predates D&D 3rd edition anyway, it was used in that game).
But while it's true that IANAL, I think the law is clear enough that people can't copyright rules and processes that it provides an entirely different mechanism by which they can be protected: patents. Patents have their own vast set of issues, but they also have shorter terms, require clearly laying out the process to be patented and registering it, it can't be too close to something existing prior, and then they're published so everyone knows the thing that's patented.
posted by JHarris at 2:59 PM on January 11, 2023 [2 favorites]
They handle this generally by not including the to-hit table precisely. Many of the numerical facts of the game are produced 90% from a formula; where the chart deviates from the formula, they can just use the formula anyway. Whether a fighter's to-hit is exactly the same as per Gygax at a given level is a minor issue, after all. Retro-clones are not made to be exactly old-school D&D, but an approximation that improves, or at least changes, it subtly, like by using current-day ascending AC or using the 3E-ish stat bonus system (which, I discovered personally from reading the source code to the roguelike game Omega, predates D&D 3rd edition anyway, it was used in that game).
But while it's true that IANAL, I think the law is clear enough that people can't copyright rules and processes that it provides an entirely different mechanism by which they can be protected: patents. Patents have their own vast set of issues, but they also have shorter terms, require clearly laying out the process to be patented and registering it, it can't be too close to something existing prior, and then they're published so everyone knows the thing that's patented.
posted by JHarris at 2:59 PM on January 11, 2023 [2 favorites]
I was a veteran of The Forge in the early 2000s.
Days I miss and yet do not miss. I'm still an anaerobic narrativist and while I've had plenty of fun at table with my massive handful of dice and minis, I'm so glad I've had my ADRPG/Everway hacked up PBEM for the last 20 years alongside it.
I think story games and D&D serve different (related) purposes and I want both of them to make it, but I'm really not enjoying watching the MBAs roast the goose that laid the golden egg because they think they can make a egg-laying machine and squeeze more gold out of the rest of us.
posted by gentlyepigrams at 4:08 PM on January 11, 2023 [2 favorites]
Days I miss and yet do not miss. I'm still an anaerobic narrativist and while I've had plenty of fun at table with my massive handful of dice and minis, I'm so glad I've had my ADRPG/Everway hacked up PBEM for the last 20 years alongside it.
I think story games and D&D serve different (related) purposes and I want both of them to make it, but I'm really not enjoying watching the MBAs roast the goose that laid the golden egg because they think they can make a egg-laying machine and squeeze more gold out of the rest of us.
posted by gentlyepigrams at 4:08 PM on January 11, 2023 [2 favorites]
I am super concerned about VTTs. I get that people like to play around a table, and more power to you, but we’ve been playing using Roll20 for three years now and, on top of the fact that several of us have moved away from our original state, we are still gaming in a pandemic. This sucks on so many levels.
posted by blurker at 6:09 PM on January 11, 2023 [6 favorites]
posted by blurker at 6:09 PM on January 11, 2023 [6 favorites]
Spike Glee: The EFF has chimed in.
They updated this today, an excerpt:
> In short, games that held up their end of the bargain under the OGL 1.0a are entitled to the benefit Wizards of the Coast promised them under that contract. But Wizards can revoke the offer of the OGL 1.0a as to new potential users who haven't yet accepted its terms.
posted by Pronoiac at 8:21 PM on January 11, 2023 [6 favorites]
They updated this today, an excerpt:
> In short, games that held up their end of the bargain under the OGL 1.0a are entitled to the benefit Wizards of the Coast promised them under that contract. But Wizards can revoke the offer of the OGL 1.0a as to new potential users who haven't yet accepted its terms.
posted by Pronoiac at 8:21 PM on January 11, 2023 [6 favorites]
.... Runescape, TORG, GURPS, Elfquest, Warhammer FRP, Rollmaster (uh, I mean Rolemaster) / MERP, Mage, Pathfinder, Dangerous Journeys / Lejendary Adventure (by GG even...)...
Sigh - DnD was ok - but there were always plenty of alternatives... (I have to admit, I used to be a 'systems' collector... )
posted by rozcakj at 7:33 AM on January 12, 2023 [2 favorites]
Sigh - DnD was ok - but there were always plenty of alternatives... (I have to admit, I used to be a 'systems' collector... )
posted by rozcakj at 7:33 AM on January 12, 2023 [2 favorites]
I am super concerned about VTTs. I get that people like to play around a table, and more power to you, but we’ve been playing using Roll20 for three years now and, on top of the fact that several of us have moved away from our original state, we are still gaming in a pandemic. This sucks on so many levels.Yeah, I worry that once they successfully get their own VTT going, they will probably try to run their current partners out of business.
When I tell people I can't do something on Sunday nights, I usually say, "we have a long term D&D game online" but we are really playing Castles and Crusades using Fantasy Grounds (or some goofy Signing Cowboys game using the Savage Worlds rules, also in Fantasy Grounds). There are tons of other games supported in VTTs, but I don't know if those generate enough money to keep the VTT companies going. I guess Owlbear Rodeo plus Discord could be used to keep things online if other stuff shuts down.
PS: you can get free PDFs of the Castles and Crusades Players Handbook and Monsters and Treasure right now.
posted by eckeric at 7:49 AM on January 12, 2023 [8 favorites]
Hearing that WOTC just cancelled their planned Twitch stream on the OGL
posted by nubs at 12:22 PM on January 12, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by nubs at 12:22 PM on January 12, 2023 [4 favorites]
Wasn't that their weekly planned D&D stream ? Not that i'm saying the cancellation didn't have anything to do with the OGL, mind you.
posted by Pendragon at 12:25 PM on January 12, 2023
posted by Pendragon at 12:25 PM on January 12, 2023
It might be; I'm not a big Twitch user. But it was expected to be used to address the OGL; even if not, I suspect it would have been a wild ride to moderate the chat.
posted by nubs at 12:27 PM on January 12, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by nubs at 12:27 PM on January 12, 2023 [3 favorites]
The announcement of the new license has been postponed.
Gizmodo article
posted by Spike Glee at 2:33 PM on January 12, 2023 [3 favorites]
Gizmodo article
posted by Spike Glee at 2:33 PM on January 12, 2023 [3 favorites]
...MERP...
Man, I'd forgotten about that one -- they had the most hilarious critical success / critical failure results. You almost didn't mind being killed when you missed a stab with a spear, because you died with such insane style.
"Stumble over an unseen imaginary deceased turtle. You are very confused. Stunned three rounds."
Or:
"Worst move seen in ages. -60 to activity from a pulled groin. Foe is stunned two rounds laughing."
posted by aramaic at 2:45 PM on January 12, 2023 [4 favorites]
Man, I'd forgotten about that one -- they had the most hilarious critical success / critical failure results. You almost didn't mind being killed when you missed a stab with a spear, because you died with such insane style.
"Stumble over an unseen imaginary deceased turtle. You are very confused. Stunned three rounds."
Or:
"Worst move seen in ages. -60 to activity from a pulled groin. Foe is stunned two rounds laughing."
posted by aramaic at 2:45 PM on January 12, 2023 [4 favorites]
Paizo Announces System-Neutral Open RPG License.
posted by Pendragon at 3:01 PM on January 12, 2023 [10 favorites]
posted by Pendragon at 3:01 PM on January 12, 2023 [10 favorites]
To my knowledge that's the third announcement of a group looking to create their own open game system (Kobold Press and MCDM being the other two); I'm sure there's more. WOTC has really lost the initiative.
posted by nubs at 4:20 PM on January 12, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by nubs at 4:20 PM on January 12, 2023 [2 favorites]
Kobold and Chaosium are joining up with Paizo.
From the Paizo press release.
In addition to Paizo, Kobold Press, Chaosium, Legendary Games, Rogue Genius, Green Ronin, and a growing list of publishers have already agreed to participate in the Open RPG Creative License, and in the coming days we hope and expect to add substantially to this group.
Also Ars Magica might be released under the ORC as well.
posted by Spike Glee at 5:55 PM on January 12, 2023 [5 favorites]
From the Paizo press release.
In addition to Paizo, Kobold Press, Chaosium, Legendary Games, Rogue Genius, Green Ronin, and a growing list of publishers have already agreed to participate in the Open RPG Creative License, and in the coming days we hope and expect to add substantially to this group.
Also Ars Magica might be released under the ORC as well.
posted by Spike Glee at 5:55 PM on January 12, 2023 [5 favorites]
The Ars Magica 4th Ed rulebook is available for free (I think it has been for sometime). I haven't played it much, but I've always liked the magic system and it's ability for allowing players to attempt new spells on the fly.
posted by nubs at 6:00 PM on January 12, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by nubs at 6:00 PM on January 12, 2023 [3 favorites]
I played Ars Magica 2nd-4th edition, and had some material I posted to the mailing list added to the 3rd and 4th editions of the game. In addition to one of the best magic systems (if not the best), it's also notable for troupe style play. In any session, one or two people play their wizards, someone plays a companion, and everyone else plays henchmen/bodyguards. (We had one magus who'd regularly botch his spells, and do things to his bodyguard. He developed quite a lot of quirks by the time he retired.)
Wizards improve during downtime, so arguing about who gets to go on the adventure's also fun.
posted by Spike Glee at 6:15 PM on January 12, 2023 [4 favorites]
Wizards improve during downtime, so arguing about who gets to go on the adventure's also fun.
posted by Spike Glee at 6:15 PM on January 12, 2023 [4 favorites]
I try and stay out of the D&D convos these days but I am waving to my Forge-friends. I’m glad lumpley/Baker is still doing his thing but wish I knew where some of the others wound up. I see a lot of good stuff come out of the queer community on itch but don’t know where the conversations happen (Discord, I’m guessing, alas).
posted by curious nu at 7:39 PM on January 12, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by curious nu at 7:39 PM on January 12, 2023 [3 favorites]
To my knowledge that's the third announcement of a group looking to create their own open game system
But this is not a game system, it's a system-neutral license.
posted by Pendragon at 10:25 PM on January 12, 2023 [3 favorites]
But this is not a game system, it's a system-neutral license.
posted by Pendragon at 10:25 PM on January 12, 2023 [3 favorites]
The current incarnation of Chaosium is kind of a dream team of creators, old hand and players-turned-creators, true believers who carried RuneQuest in particular through two or more decades of hard times and real corporate fuckery.
I have enormous faith in their ability to navigate these waters for the best of the community, as a sustainable cooperative venture that makes enough money to survive but does so without being predatory on the hobbyists and players who are its clients and ultimately whom it relies upon to remain healthy. Chaosium has had this figured out for both Call of Cthulhu and Runequest for almost a decade now (I'm so glad Stafford lived to see this happen). They've been saying the OGL was problematic for 2 years at least and trying to move the needle on a new licence.
If the Reaching Moon megacorp are behind Paizo's new licence, I'm all for it. Those folks have proven time and again they know how to do what's right, financially and morally, for a smallish hobby with passionate fans.
posted by bonehead at 7:48 AM on January 13, 2023 [3 favorites]
I have enormous faith in their ability to navigate these waters for the best of the community, as a sustainable cooperative venture that makes enough money to survive but does so without being predatory on the hobbyists and players who are its clients and ultimately whom it relies upon to remain healthy. Chaosium has had this figured out for both Call of Cthulhu and Runequest for almost a decade now (I'm so glad Stafford lived to see this happen). They've been saying the OGL was problematic for 2 years at least and trying to move the needle on a new licence.
If the Reaching Moon megacorp are behind Paizo's new licence, I'm all for it. Those folks have proven time and again they know how to do what's right, financially and morally, for a smallish hobby with passionate fans.
posted by bonehead at 7:48 AM on January 13, 2023 [3 favorites]
But this is not a game system, it's a system-neutral license.
My ability to parse things is apparently getting worn down this week; thanks for the clarification - I kind of had the idea in my head that everyone making announcements was working on a new system that would include an OGL-type license, but it makes sense that the community should pool efforts to create one system-agnostic license to bring them all, and in the open bind them. Good on Paizo for taking the lead.
Anyways, hearing that there's been another leak this morning, of the FAQ that was to come along with the OGL1.1 2.0 announcement. Haven't seen any details yet, but I'm sure it's being dissected line by line in the way of TTRPG players. More telling to me is the fact that WOTC seems to be leaking a lot at the moment; I'm wondering what the internal climate is like right now.
posted by nubs at 7:55 AM on January 13, 2023 [3 favorites]
My ability to parse things is apparently getting worn down this week; thanks for the clarification - I kind of had the idea in my head that everyone making announcements was working on a new system that would include an OGL-type license, but it makes sense that the community should pool efforts to create one system-agnostic license to bring them all, and in the open bind them. Good on Paizo for taking the lead.
Anyways, hearing that there's been another leak this morning, of the FAQ that was to come along with the OGL
posted by nubs at 7:55 AM on January 13, 2023 [3 favorites]
Andreas Walters of MetalWeave Games has some updates on the newly-minted "OGL 2.0". (Twitter repost of TikToc vid)
Seems pretty underwhelming to me. Fiddling at the margins isn't going to stop what's happening.
posted by bonehead at 7:55 AM on January 13, 2023 [2 favorites]
Seems pretty underwhelming to me. Fiddling at the margins isn't going to stop what's happening.
posted by bonehead at 7:55 AM on January 13, 2023 [2 favorites]
That statement is such PR bullshit. They send out the 1.1 OGL to publishers WITH the contracts to sign. Why do that if it was just a draft ?
posted by Pendragon at 8:49 AM on January 13, 2023 [7 favorites]
posted by Pendragon at 8:49 AM on January 13, 2023 [7 favorites]
What makes the update somewhat challenging for me to believe:
"That was why our early drafts of the new OGL included the provisions they did. That draft language was provided to content creators and publishers so their feedback could be considered before anything was finalized."
The leaked OGL 1.1 had a sign by date of Jan 13 and was leaked on the 4th or 5th; in my experience, when I circulate a draft agreement for feedback, I don't have a hard date for it to be signed. Further, the confirmation from Kickstarter regarding their royalty rate says to me that WOTC was already concluding negotiations and agreements with 3rd parties around the new OGL.
"It also will not include the license back provision that some people were afraid was a means for us to steal work. That thought never crossed our minds...The license back language was intended to protect us and our partners from creators who incorrectly allege that we steal their work simply because of coincidental similarities."
The OGL 1.1 language was "You own the new and original content You create. You agree to give Us a nonexclusive, perpetual, irrevocable, worldwide, sub-licensable, royalty-free license to use that content for any purpose."
I have to think if the intent was to protect themselves from allegations of stealing work, you could find language that doesn't boil down to "we get to take and use your work however we want, and don't have to pay you".
posted by nubs at 8:53 AM on January 13, 2023 [6 favorites]
"That was why our early drafts of the new OGL included the provisions they did. That draft language was provided to content creators and publishers so their feedback could be considered before anything was finalized."
The leaked OGL 1.1 had a sign by date of Jan 13 and was leaked on the 4th or 5th; in my experience, when I circulate a draft agreement for feedback, I don't have a hard date for it to be signed. Further, the confirmation from Kickstarter regarding their royalty rate says to me that WOTC was already concluding negotiations and agreements with 3rd parties around the new OGL.
"It also will not include the license back provision that some people were afraid was a means for us to steal work. That thought never crossed our minds...The license back language was intended to protect us and our partners from creators who incorrectly allege that we steal their work simply because of coincidental similarities."
The OGL 1.1 language was "You own the new and original content You create. You agree to give Us a nonexclusive, perpetual, irrevocable, worldwide, sub-licensable, royalty-free license to use that content for any purpose."
I have to think if the intent was to protect themselves from allegations of stealing work, you could find language that doesn't boil down to "we get to take and use your work however we want, and don't have to pay you".
posted by nubs at 8:53 AM on January 13, 2023 [6 favorites]
Putting together my thoughts from elsewhere:
This would be a very good two days ago statement.
Some of the language here about “large corporations” raises some questions. All companies jumping ship were absolutely right to do so, though thankfully it seems to remove the threat of fucking them over legally for existing products - I am not entirely sure the ogre of “WOTC considers itself to own the concept of TTRPGs and may do a legal fuckery on anyone else in that field at any time” has completely left the room.
Also everyone working on VTT stuff should shift to support pathfinder primarily as a precautionary measure, on the other hand as we’ve seen from Twitter people who threaten to leave a big system with network effects will often stay if there’s a slight excuse not to.
posted by Artw at 8:54 AM on January 13, 2023 [3 favorites]
This would be a very good two days ago statement.
Some of the language here about “large corporations” raises some questions. All companies jumping ship were absolutely right to do so, though thankfully it seems to remove the threat of fucking them over legally for existing products - I am not entirely sure the ogre of “WOTC considers itself to own the concept of TTRPGs and may do a legal fuckery on anyone else in that field at any time” has completely left the room.
Also everyone working on VTT stuff should shift to support pathfinder primarily as a precautionary measure, on the other hand as we’ve seen from Twitter people who threaten to leave a big system with network effects will often stay if there’s a slight excuse not to.
posted by Artw at 8:54 AM on January 13, 2023 [3 favorites]
The OGL 1.1 language was "You own the new and original content You create. You agree to give Us a nonexclusive, perpetual, irrevocable, worldwide, sub-licensable, royalty-free license to use that content for any purpose."
The "for any purpose" part becomes interesting when you read the remainder of the blog post paragraph on this and it continues "As we continue to invest in the game that we love and move forward with partnerships in film, television, and digital games...". So, was the intent to have an OGL that dealt with publishers but left WOTC with the right to use their stuff in movies, TV production, and games?
posted by nubs at 9:11 AM on January 13, 2023 [6 favorites]
The "for any purpose" part becomes interesting when you read the remainder of the blog post paragraph on this and it continues "As we continue to invest in the game that we love and move forward with partnerships in film, television, and digital games...". So, was the intent to have an OGL that dealt with publishers but left WOTC with the right to use their stuff in movies, TV production, and games?
posted by nubs at 9:11 AM on January 13, 2023 [6 favorites]
Well, yay, WotC's PR people finally came up with a statement.
But notice that it leads with "the ability to prevent the use of D&D" in racist or discriminatory products? That's a clear reference to them shutting down a so-called retroclone that had gross penalties for a human's ethnic background and a strength penalty for women. But they did so with the current OGL; a change isn't necessary.
This lame PR effort, while it makes some concessions, is likely too little, too late. And it's going out to an audience that absolutely understands nuance of language and so will instantly see it for the smokescreen, CYA half-effort it is.
posted by Gelatin at 9:23 AM on January 13, 2023 [5 favorites]
But notice that it leads with "the ability to prevent the use of D&D" in racist or discriminatory products? That's a clear reference to them shutting down a so-called retroclone that had gross penalties for a human's ethnic background and a strength penalty for women. But they did so with the current OGL; a change isn't necessary.
This lame PR effort, while it makes some concessions, is likely too little, too late. And it's going out to an audience that absolutely understands nuance of language and so will instantly see it for the smokescreen, CYA half-effort it is.
posted by Gelatin at 9:23 AM on January 13, 2023 [5 favorites]
Is that Star Frontiers? It’s unclear to me that the OGL was involved in that case one way or another.
posted by Artw at 9:36 AM on January 13, 2023
posted by Artw at 9:36 AM on January 13, 2023
Also, the notion that they "released" the draft to "solicit feedback" is a transparent lie. Wizards i soliciting feedback on an upcoming revision of D&D via a public playtest, which is massively publicized and announced in advance. Wizards is failing its roll to disbelieve here, but I doubt its fans will believe them.
posted by Gelatin at 9:39 AM on January 13, 2023
posted by Gelatin at 9:39 AM on January 13, 2023
Current working theory amongst my circles is they showed Paizo and Paizo leaked it. There is much debate as to the sketchiness of this and the degree to which the draft has been represented fairly.
posted by Artw at 9:42 AM on January 13, 2023
posted by Artw at 9:42 AM on January 13, 2023
Why would they show Paizo the 1.1 OGL ?
posted by Pendragon at 9:45 AM on January 13, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by Pendragon at 9:45 AM on January 13, 2023 [1 favorite]
It seems to be canon that the impetus for this move came from Hasbro, so I can well imagine some WotC employees disagree with changing the OGL on principle, or wouldn't object to changes but predicted, accurately, that this batch would give their brand a black eye. I don't doubt that some of these insiders could be providing information anonymously to various parties to influence the discussion.
posted by Gelatin at 9:50 AM on January 13, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by Gelatin at 9:50 AM on January 13, 2023 [1 favorite]
Why would they show Paizo the 1.1 OGL ?
My understanding is that both Pathfinder 1.0 and 2.0 use the OGL.
posted by nubs at 10:02 AM on January 13, 2023
My understanding is that both Pathfinder 1.0 and 2.0 use the OGL.
posted by nubs at 10:02 AM on January 13, 2023
I still think it is more likely somebody inside WotC leaked the OGL 1.1 than Paizo.
posted by Pendragon at 10:06 AM on January 13, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by Pendragon at 10:06 AM on January 13, 2023 [4 favorites]
It seems to be canon that the impetus for this move came from Hasbro, so I can well imagine some WotC employees disagree with changing the OGL on principle, or wouldn't object to changes but predicted, accurately, that this batch would give their brand a black eye
There's been some good analysis of Hasbro's business situations from Dungeon Craft. I think the business situation is a big part of it - WOTC is a big revenue driver for Hasbro with M:tG and D&D; part of it is that I think the people in charge (the C-suite) of both Hasbro & WOTC at this point also don't understand the hobbies (both CCG and TTRPG) or the players/community around them so the executive team at WOTC isn't going to push back on Hasbro.
I do think there's a need to update the OGL - a lot of things have changed in the years since 1.0a, and I do think addressing things like VTTs, NFTs, etc. is appropriate, even if only to be explicitly clear they are not part of the OGL. I have no idea what to do with crowdfunding, honestly, or if anything should be done; but I understand WOTC wanting to put that on the table. And sure, do things like tighten up language about products that are bigoted/hateful/discriminatory. But this was just ham-fisted bullying, and in no way an attempt to get feedback - there was no mechanism for feedback created.
If they want to really flip the narrative, they reach out to Paizo and ask about ORC (laugh). Failing that, the next best step is to burn the midnight oil this weekend and have a draft of the new OGL ready for Monday, with some clear processes in place to explain it and invite feedback and discussion - because honestly, I'm not believing anything they say; we need to see the language.
posted by nubs at 10:36 AM on January 13, 2023 [3 favorites]
There's been some good analysis of Hasbro's business situations from Dungeon Craft. I think the business situation is a big part of it - WOTC is a big revenue driver for Hasbro with M:tG and D&D; part of it is that I think the people in charge (the C-suite) of both Hasbro & WOTC at this point also don't understand the hobbies (both CCG and TTRPG) or the players/community around them so the executive team at WOTC isn't going to push back on Hasbro.
I do think there's a need to update the OGL - a lot of things have changed in the years since 1.0a, and I do think addressing things like VTTs, NFTs, etc. is appropriate, even if only to be explicitly clear they are not part of the OGL. I have no idea what to do with crowdfunding, honestly, or if anything should be done; but I understand WOTC wanting to put that on the table. And sure, do things like tighten up language about products that are bigoted/hateful/discriminatory. But this was just ham-fisted bullying, and in no way an attempt to get feedback - there was no mechanism for feedback created.
If they want to really flip the narrative, they reach out to Paizo and ask about ORC (laugh). Failing that, the next best step is to burn the midnight oil this weekend and have a draft of the new OGL ready for Monday, with some clear processes in place to explain it and invite feedback and discussion - because honestly, I'm not believing anything they say; we need to see the language.
posted by nubs at 10:36 AM on January 13, 2023 [3 favorites]
One of the Architects of the Original OGL, Ryan Dancey, Discusses Its Creation | Roll For Combat
posted by zamboni at 11:06 AM on January 13, 2023 [6 favorites]
posted by zamboni at 11:06 AM on January 13, 2023 [6 favorites]
I know it's a distraction, but while we're all having Forge memories bubble up, I remember a fantastic game of Everway we played over IRC. Instead of a tarot deck, people submitted images to a photobucket, and someone used an RNG (or maybe photobucket had a facility for this?) to randomly choose images. It was fantastic, because we all interpreted each other's images and asked questions to interview during chargen, and just *vibed* together on a story. I absolutely love it and would love to do it again some day.
posted by rum-soaked space hobo at 11:46 AM on January 13, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by rum-soaked space hobo at 11:46 AM on January 13, 2023 [2 favorites]
Interestingly here io9 mentions getting it from publishers, plural.
posted by Artw at 12:06 PM on January 13, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by Artw at 12:06 PM on January 13, 2023 [2 favorites]
Pretty clear that Hasbro/WOTC still doesn’t have anyone involved in this who understands the community and how serious they’ve screwed up here. Their PR team is obviously working from some senior execs talking points attempting to spin rotten straw into gold. They need to issue a direct and complete apology and stop making excuses.
posted by interogative mood at 12:16 PM on January 13, 2023 [8 favorites]
posted by interogative mood at 12:16 PM on January 13, 2023 [8 favorites]
The idea that the OGL was for fans and "aspiring designers" but not corporations, as WotC asserts, is just wrong. The champions of the OGL, back in the day, were excited when companies used it, because that was the whole point. Other people contribute to your game and everyone benefits.
It was a trendy software model back then, and TBF even many software execs had trouble with it. So unlike the "it was just a draft" crap, I don't think this part was disingenuous dishonest, but it does show how they think about the license.
Current working theory amongst my circles is they showed Paizo and Paizo leaked it. There is much debate as to the sketchiness of this and the degree to which the draft has been represented fairly.
The whole text was leaked; it's not like we're just getting some whiny publisher's interpretation of what's in it. And the parts people are upset about make no sense unless the entire goal was to try and undo the open part of the license and make it firmly WotC IP.
So if the commentary is unfair it's only in that special sense, where someone is "misunderstood" because they look bad, when their intent was to look good.
posted by mark k at 1:13 PM on January 13, 2023 [5 favorites]
It was a trendy software model back then, and TBF even many software execs had trouble with it. So unlike the "it was just a draft" crap, I don't think this part was disingenuous dishonest, but it does show how they think about the license.
Current working theory amongst my circles is they showed Paizo and Paizo leaked it. There is much debate as to the sketchiness of this and the degree to which the draft has been represented fairly.
The whole text was leaked; it's not like we're just getting some whiny publisher's interpretation of what's in it. And the parts people are upset about make no sense unless the entire goal was to try and undo the open part of the license and make it firmly WotC IP.
So if the commentary is unfair it's only in that special sense, where someone is "misunderstood" because they look bad, when their intent was to look good.
posted by mark k at 1:13 PM on January 13, 2023 [5 favorites]
Current working theory amongst my circles is they showed Paizo and Paizo leaked it. There is much debate as to the sketchiness of this and the degree to which the draft has been represented fairly.
As mentioned above, the entirety of the OGL 1.1 document is out there on the internet at this point, as a few different places have posted it - for example, Roll for Combat and Battlezoo and WOTC hasn't made any statement saying anything about it is incorrect, changed, or altered. If the full document is not representing WOTC fairly, then who is to blame?
posted by nubs at 3:56 PM on January 13, 2023 [2 favorites]
As mentioned above, the entirety of the OGL 1.1 document is out there on the internet at this point, as a few different places have posted it - for example, Roll for Combat and Battlezoo and WOTC hasn't made any statement saying anything about it is incorrect, changed, or altered. If the full document is not representing WOTC fairly, then who is to blame?
posted by nubs at 3:56 PM on January 13, 2023 [2 favorites]
DnD Shorts goes through Wizards' official statement.
posted by Pendragon at 4:01 PM on January 13, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by Pendragon at 4:01 PM on January 13, 2023 [2 favorites]
From Gizmodo's Linda Codega: Cancelled D&D Beyond Subscriptions Forced Hasbro's Hand.
posted by Pendragon at 10:13 AM on January 14, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by Pendragon at 10:13 AM on January 14, 2023 [2 favorites]
Legal Eagle thinks that the fact that you can't copyright rules is key.
posted by rum-soaked space hobo at 10:53 AM on January 14, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by rum-soaked space hobo at 10:53 AM on January 14, 2023 [2 favorites]
LegalEagle: Dungeons & Dragons Rolls a 1 on New License (OGL 1.1) ft. Matt Colville.
posted by Pendragon at 10:54 AM on January 14, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by Pendragon at 10:54 AM on January 14, 2023 [1 favorite]
Dungeon Craft has a look at the press release ("like hitting players and creators in the head with a rock and calling it a hot stone massage"), where he thinks WOTC wants to go ("walled garden"), and where the fight goes from here. I think he makes the point missing from LegalEagle's discussion - it might be the case that the rules can't be copyrighted, but someone would have to go to court to find out, and who wants to be that person?
For a reaction to all of this that goes some different places, Mark "Sherlock" Hulmes makes some interesting observations, including the idea that beyond the walled garden for the game, WOTC & Hasbro wants a multi-media franchise and that the potential revenue from movies/TV/computer games is a very big driver.
posted by nubs at 2:43 PM on January 16, 2023 [7 favorites]
For a reaction to all of this that goes some different places, Mark "Sherlock" Hulmes makes some interesting observations, including the idea that beyond the walled garden for the game, WOTC & Hasbro wants a multi-media franchise and that the potential revenue from movies/TV/computer games is a very big driver.
posted by nubs at 2:43 PM on January 16, 2023 [7 favorites]
nubs: “Dungeon Craft has a look at the press release”Coming in to post that video. I wanted to highlight this quote:
“The executives at a Fortune 500 company like Hasbro are smart people. Don't underestimate them. Don't be beguiled by their promises and their talk of community. It's time they understood that we're not a part of their community. They are a part of our community.” — Professor Dungeon Master, Id.posted by ob1quixote at 3:59 PM on January 16, 2023 [3 favorites]
You are my people. Came in to post the Dungeon Craft video and not one, but two posters beat me to it. Anyone still here and following along at home is encouraged to watch.
posted by meinvt at 4:43 PM on January 16, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by meinvt at 4:43 PM on January 16, 2023 [1 favorite]
For a contrarian take, the Opening Arguments podcast mentioned in the Legal Eagle video has a scathing assessment of the Gizmodo piece. Some of it is based on a misunderstanding, but it’s an useful perspective from someone outside gaming.
posted by zamboni at 6:41 PM on January 16, 2023
posted by zamboni at 6:41 PM on January 16, 2023
It really isn't, because it boils down to "a lot of this stuff was in the OGL 1.0, and the revenue portion would only affect the big dogs" while ignoring the context of the shift (which is why people are up in arms.) The D&D community has been watching how Hasbro and WotC are choking the life out of Magic: The Gathering currently, and saw this as the first steps in making similar moves in their community. LegalEagle's opening Empire Strikes Back joke honestly sums up the point - nobody trusts the current execs at Hasbro and WotC to hold to any deal they might make, which is why the community is now moving to remove them from the equation.
posted by NoxAeternum at 8:22 PM on January 16, 2023 [6 favorites]
posted by NoxAeternum at 8:22 PM on January 16, 2023 [6 favorites]
someone would have to go to court to find out, and who wants to be that person?
I think you answered your own question in the next paragraph:
Mark "Sherlock" Hulmes makes some interesting observations, including the idea that beyond the walled garden for the game, WOTC & Hasbro wants a multi-media franchise and that the potential revenue from movies/TV/computer games is a very big driver.
I had guessed as much on Mastodon. "Our Own Cinematic Universe" is the shiny brass ring that every single board of entertainment execs is willing to break their own collective, metaphorical necks to reach for. Also breaking what they'd perceive as some vague, unprofitable, whiny "community" is just collateral damage.
posted by CheesesOfBrazil at 2:30 AM on January 17, 2023 [1 favorite]
I think you answered your own question in the next paragraph:
Mark "Sherlock" Hulmes makes some interesting observations, including the idea that beyond the walled garden for the game, WOTC & Hasbro wants a multi-media franchise and that the potential revenue from movies/TV/computer games is a very big driver.
I had guessed as much on Mastodon. "Our Own Cinematic Universe" is the shiny brass ring that every single board of entertainment execs is willing to break their own collective, metaphorical necks to reach for. Also breaking what they'd perceive as some vague, unprofitable, whiny "community" is just collateral damage.
posted by CheesesOfBrazil at 2:30 AM on January 17, 2023 [1 favorite]
So the leaked info now is a planned increase to the cost of D&D Beyond subscriptions, with the top tier going to $30/month per player. If you aren't at the top tier, no homebrew content is permitted. The AI DM stuff is just weird to me.
Anyways, the hole continues to be dug.
posted by nubs at 7:16 AM on January 17, 2023 [4 favorites]
Anyways, the hole continues to be dug.
posted by nubs at 7:16 AM on January 17, 2023 [4 favorites]
Given even the state of the art of AI language bots, the AI-DM seems like a non-starter to me. One of the reasons people play pen and paper RPGs is the human interaction and the chaos and fun that comes with that. An AI-chatbot based on producing even sophisticated pastiches doesn't (yet?) have the ability to improv the way a human can, and certainly can't the way a friend of yours can. It's not clear at all how this would be much better than any one of the dozens of CRPG games out there already.
Lots of people in the RPG space have been fooling around with the recent AI tools. They're pretty good random generators, but as any DM knows, that only gets you so far. A random generated scene/encounter is simply the skeleton that the players and the DM will riff on. It's not the actual play itself.
What the hobby needs is a good VTT solution. Many of the products out there now feel like they have 75% of the solution, but all of them lack that real sparkle that a really well-made piece of software has. I'd put the state of the art as 2003 cell-phones. Roll20 is the current BlackBerry, but there's no iPhone product out there yet.
posted by bonehead at 8:21 AM on January 17, 2023 [2 favorites]
Lots of people in the RPG space have been fooling around with the recent AI tools. They're pretty good random generators, but as any DM knows, that only gets you so far. A random generated scene/encounter is simply the skeleton that the players and the DM will riff on. It's not the actual play itself.
What the hobby needs is a good VTT solution. Many of the products out there now feel like they have 75% of the solution, but all of them lack that real sparkle that a really well-made piece of software has. I'd put the state of the art as 2003 cell-phones. Roll20 is the current BlackBerry, but there's no iPhone product out there yet.
posted by bonehead at 8:21 AM on January 17, 2023 [2 favorites]
I'd suppose an AI DM is a stab at getting players who never DM to buy things their DMs buy, multiplying the number of people giving WotC money directly. That said, group CYOA is a thing (e.g. T.I.M.E Stories or Mythos Tales), and old Dragonlance modules came pretty close to that too. Those are kinds of things an AI DM could probably handle pretty well for a group of friends who want to try this stuff out. If there isn't a VTT already working toward that, it seems like an OK feature. Getting a bunch of players to pay $30/month each for it is obviously absurd and strikes me as the kind of thing someone might toss around internally to justify building something rather than a fully baked idea.
posted by Wobbuffet at 9:34 AM on January 17, 2023
posted by Wobbuffet at 9:34 AM on January 17, 2023
(Being a little more clear, when people talk about game AI, they don't usually mean ChatGPT--they mean things like pathing algorithms that an automated VTT would have reasonable occasion to use.)
posted by Wobbuffet at 9:55 AM on January 17, 2023
posted by Wobbuffet at 9:55 AM on January 17, 2023
I can see an AI DM maybe being okayish for a pre-written adventure, though I think it will struggle as soon as the group starts doing unexpected things. Part of what happens in any TTRPG is emergent play and stuff can go unexpected directions pretty fast. But if they are meaning something else - something like what I think Wobbuffet is talking about - then I think it's better to describe it as an AI assistant for play, not an AI GM.
But what I'm really boggled about is the fact that they would restrict homebrew to that tier; homebrew happens really quick in any D&D game IME - rules get tweaked, heavily modified, or dropped. People create small changes almost immediately, and it builds from there to new spells, classes, monsters, etc. Not allowing that unless it is paid at the top tier is just going to drive pretty much everyone to a different system or underground or back to pencil and paper in the basement (which is kind of my preference, honestly, though Roll20 has been great when we don't have a physical space).
posted by nubs at 10:10 AM on January 17, 2023 [4 favorites]
But what I'm really boggled about is the fact that they would restrict homebrew to that tier; homebrew happens really quick in any D&D game IME - rules get tweaked, heavily modified, or dropped. People create small changes almost immediately, and it builds from there to new spells, classes, monsters, etc. Not allowing that unless it is paid at the top tier is just going to drive pretty much everyone to a different system or underground or back to pencil and paper in the basement (which is kind of my preference, honestly, though Roll20 has been great when we don't have a physical space).
posted by nubs at 10:10 AM on January 17, 2023 [4 favorites]
What the hobby needs is a good VTT solution. Many of the products out there now feel like they have 75% of the solution, but all of them lack that real sparkle that a really well-made piece of software has.
This is the bewildering part to me. They could have just rolled out the new legal language as part of allowing creators to put 3rd party content on DnDBeyond. And they could have elevated the platform’s capabilities and fee structure in lock step. I’d bet in two years the frog would be boiled as we all reluctantly bought in to each incremental step.
Instead they massacred very overreached, no doubt in an attempt to get higher quarterly reports more quickly. If the fan base holds through mid-April we will get to see how much of a backfire that is.
posted by meinvt at 10:30 AM on January 17, 2023 [2 favorites]
This is the bewildering part to me. They could have just rolled out the new legal language as part of allowing creators to put 3rd party content on DnDBeyond. And they could have elevated the platform’s capabilities and fee structure in lock step. I’d bet in two years the frog would be boiled as we all reluctantly bought in to each incremental step.
Instead they massacred very overreached, no doubt in an attempt to get higher quarterly reports more quickly. If the fan base holds through mid-April we will get to see how much of a backfire that is.
posted by meinvt at 10:30 AM on January 17, 2023 [2 favorites]
I alluded obliquely to this in a previous comment, but a fundamental problem with Hasbro/WotC management is that the OGL is meant to be like Linux, and they want it to be more like a Skyrim mod-friendly license. The "we get a perpetual use/distribution/etc license from you" is the sort of thing that appears in some (most? all?) mod-enabling licenses.
They think the benefit to them is if they have a monopoly on the executable, then they might profit from the mods. It's actually a totally different business model than a true open license.
Got a bunch of Tik Toks from friends keeping me up to date, one asks what Hasbro thought would happen if you give a 900 page document to a bunch of nerds. "Never bring a regular lawyer to a rules lawyer fight."
Another one.
Another other one.
posted by mark k at 5:42 PM on January 17, 2023 [4 favorites]
They think the benefit to them is if they have a monopoly on the executable, then they might profit from the mods. It's actually a totally different business model than a true open license.
Got a bunch of Tik Toks from friends keeping me up to date, one asks what Hasbro thought would happen if you give a 900 page document to a bunch of nerds. "Never bring a regular lawyer to a rules lawyer fight."
Another one.
Another other one.
posted by mark k at 5:42 PM on January 17, 2023 [4 favorites]
group CYOA is a thing
I could see a one-time charge for a CYOA multiplayer experience, one that's even mediated by a Chat-bot/combat AI, but it's still basally a set-script path. There's no potential for off-script or "verbs" that haven't been anticipated either in the ruleset or explicit module/path.
I think this is important because there's a minority under-current of wanting only explicit actions in the rules. There are a lot of players/DMs who are very uncomfortable with the idea of players trying things or even DMs writing scenarios that don't strictly conform to the "rules as written" and only the rules-as-written. The only actions a character can (meaningfully) take are explicitly written on their character sheet. Going this route, with an AI that can't make on-the-spot rulings on non-RAW actions, is not a positive for RPG culture. It effectively turns a free-form RPG into a computer moderated board game, a really fancy Gloomhaven, if you will, with a chatbot front end. There's a market for that, but it's not one that fosters the RPG culture.
I like CRPGS. But I've also had to spend hours training WoW players out of bad habits.
This AI-isation is one of the major sins committed in 4e in my view. That was likely done in a failed attempt to CRPG-ify D&D to make it entirely able to be implemented in a 2000s era VTT. I think OGL 2 signals another run at this. I don't see any better outcome even with 20ish years of tech advancement.
Last time the OSR and PbtA games happened as a reaction to the over-mechanization/boardgamization of D&D. One positive is that I think we're going to continue to see "rulings not rules" and "narrative forward" game developments. Some groups will switch to Pathfinder, but I think more prefer the loser and less-mechanical approach of the Revival (Old or New school) and PbtA/Forged in the Dark games.
Sorry for the ramble, but I think these events are pebbles that could divert the stream of future gaming in some interesting (and unanticipated) ways.
posted by bonehead at 8:48 AM on January 18, 2023 [6 favorites]
I could see a one-time charge for a CYOA multiplayer experience, one that's even mediated by a Chat-bot/combat AI, but it's still basally a set-script path. There's no potential for off-script or "verbs" that haven't been anticipated either in the ruleset or explicit module/path.
I think this is important because there's a minority under-current of wanting only explicit actions in the rules. There are a lot of players/DMs who are very uncomfortable with the idea of players trying things or even DMs writing scenarios that don't strictly conform to the "rules as written" and only the rules-as-written. The only actions a character can (meaningfully) take are explicitly written on their character sheet. Going this route, with an AI that can't make on-the-spot rulings on non-RAW actions, is not a positive for RPG culture. It effectively turns a free-form RPG into a computer moderated board game, a really fancy Gloomhaven, if you will, with a chatbot front end. There's a market for that, but it's not one that fosters the RPG culture.
I like CRPGS. But I've also had to spend hours training WoW players out of bad habits.
This AI-isation is one of the major sins committed in 4e in my view. That was likely done in a failed attempt to CRPG-ify D&D to make it entirely able to be implemented in a 2000s era VTT. I think OGL 2 signals another run at this. I don't see any better outcome even with 20ish years of tech advancement.
Last time the OSR and PbtA games happened as a reaction to the over-mechanization/boardgamization of D&D. One positive is that I think we're going to continue to see "rulings not rules" and "narrative forward" game developments. Some groups will switch to Pathfinder, but I think more prefer the loser and less-mechanical approach of the Revival (Old or New school) and PbtA/Forged in the Dark games.
Sorry for the ramble, but I think these events are pebbles that could divert the stream of future gaming in some interesting (and unanticipated) ways.
posted by bonehead at 8:48 AM on January 18, 2023 [6 favorites]
It effectively turns a free-form RPG into a computer moderated board game, a really fancy Gloomhaven, if you will ...
Yeah, that's the vibe I get from "AI DM" too--particularly connecting dots between OneD&D and an exec from Xbox or (even more speculatively) the relaunch of Dragonlance a couple months ago and a refresher on just how pre-programmed DL modules were (e.g. DL1 [PDF]).
posted by Wobbuffet at 10:29 AM on January 18, 2023 [3 favorites]
Yeah, that's the vibe I get from "AI DM" too--particularly connecting dots between OneD&D and an exec from Xbox or (even more speculatively) the relaunch of Dragonlance a couple months ago and a refresher on just how pre-programmed DL modules were (e.g. DL1 [PDF]).
posted by Wobbuffet at 10:29 AM on January 18, 2023 [3 favorites]
There's a official statement from WotC today: A Working Conversation About the Open Game License (OGL)
An apology and some promises from Kyle Brink, the Executive Producer on D&D.
New OGL draft to be officially released by Friday latest with comment and review period to follow.
posted by bonehead at 11:23 AM on January 18, 2023 [2 favorites]
An apology and some promises from Kyle Brink, the Executive Producer on D&D.
New OGL draft to be officially released by Friday latest with comment and review period to follow.
posted by bonehead at 11:23 AM on January 18, 2023 [2 favorites]
So it's interesting what they haven't mentioned in that update, which (if I'm parsing it correctly) is the right to publish for-profit derivative products and game systems. They are saying no one will be charged royalties, but not that the OGL will continue to allow someone to grab D&D rules, rewrite them for their own setting, and do a product line based on that.
Guess we'll see soon if I'm reading too much into that.
On AI:
I know for a fact that I was not the only nerd in the early AD&D games to use random tables in the back of the DM's Guide to play solo. I could play with friends sometimes, but this I could do on weekdays. More fun than homework! A current friend who did the same thing has heard this experience called the first Rogue-like game.
I'm obviously projecting from my childhood, but I suspect AI will appeal to some people like this. But also I don't think it's that far off from the original spirit of the game. (Not that the original spirit of the game is all sunshine and unicorns--people remember the good parts, and not the crap like the adversarial player/GM advice Gygax tossed out.)
posted by mark k at 11:42 AM on January 18, 2023 [2 favorites]
Guess we'll see soon if I'm reading too much into that.
On AI:
I know for a fact that I was not the only nerd in the early AD&D games to use random tables in the back of the DM's Guide to play solo. I could play with friends sometimes, but this I could do on weekdays. More fun than homework! A current friend who did the same thing has heard this experience called the first Rogue-like game.
I'm obviously projecting from my childhood, but I suspect AI will appeal to some people like this. But also I don't think it's that far off from the original spirit of the game. (Not that the original spirit of the game is all sunshine and unicorns--people remember the good parts, and not the crap like the adversarial player/GM advice Gygax tossed out.)
posted by mark k at 11:42 AM on January 18, 2023 [2 favorites]
New OGL draft to be officially released by Friday latest with comment and review period to follow.
Comments only open to DnDBeyond subscribers, I'm sure. I'm feeling very mistrustful of any move they make right now, and am looking forward to actually seeing what the proposed OGL is like, but I'm not sure how much they want feedback, and how much they want to look like they want feedback.
I'm hearing that there may be a large Humble Bundle coming this weekend from 3rd party publishers.
posted by nubs at 11:55 AM on January 18, 2023
Comments only open to DnDBeyond subscribers, I'm sure. I'm feeling very mistrustful of any move they make right now, and am looking forward to actually seeing what the proposed OGL is like, but I'm not sure how much they want feedback, and how much they want to look like they want feedback.
I'm hearing that there may be a large Humble Bundle coming this weekend from 3rd party publishers.
posted by nubs at 11:55 AM on January 18, 2023
If they're using the same model as the draft rules material (and that is what's implied to me), then it's open to anyone who cares to comment. those have been done by a link on the WotC website, not on DnDBeyond.
Edit to add: those surveys are anonymous in that they don't collect demographic info as required, though they're likely logging IPs.
posted by bonehead at 11:57 AM on January 18, 2023
Edit to add: those surveys are anonymous in that they don't collect demographic info as required, though they're likely logging IPs.
posted by bonehead at 11:57 AM on January 18, 2023
Re: A.I.
I've been playing Nethack for years. I don't need a VTT for that.
And if I want to do something like that with friends, I'll open up Jared Sorensen's Parsley .
And of course, there's MMORPGs aplenty for those that enjoy that. TPTB @ WotC/Hasbro really are trying to make Fourth Edition Two Failure Boogaloo.
posted by ursus_comiter at 12:15 PM on January 18, 2023 [2 favorites]
I've been playing Nethack for years. I don't need a VTT for that.
And if I want to do something like that with friends, I'll open up Jared Sorensen's Parsley .
And of course, there's MMORPGs aplenty for those that enjoy that. TPTB @ WotC/Hasbro really are trying to make Fourth Edition Two Failure Boogaloo.
posted by ursus_comiter at 12:15 PM on January 18, 2023 [2 favorites]
To me using an automated tool quenches the fire that comes in RPG bottles. It's all about the magic that happens when a player says: I don't know what I should roll for this but can I....
Almost all the best moments I can remember happened because someone tried something not in the "rules" and we all ran with it. A group of familiars of a witch hunting her killer, arriving at the town where he lived: "Of course we go see the Council of Spiders first to see if we can enter their city". As the GM, I mean, of course you would. "Tell me more about this Council..."
If an AI can do stuff like that, be the computer in Ender's Game, then maybe. But I don't think ChatGPT or the MS or Google ones are up to that level of creativity and coherence yet.
posted by bonehead at 12:39 PM on January 18, 2023 [1 favorite]
Almost all the best moments I can remember happened because someone tried something not in the "rules" and we all ran with it. A group of familiars of a witch hunting her killer, arriving at the town where he lived: "Of course we go see the Council of Spiders first to see if we can enter their city". As the GM, I mean, of course you would. "Tell me more about this Council..."
If an AI can do stuff like that, be the computer in Ender's Game, then maybe. But I don't think ChatGPT or the MS or Google ones are up to that level of creativity and coherence yet.
posted by bonehead at 12:39 PM on January 18, 2023 [1 favorite]
The Rules Lawyer responds to the new statement. In short, much of what is discussed in the statement are not concessions but rather touching on things that wouldn't have changed (which I would argue is also possibly needed clarification, but it's good to note the difference between clarification and concession). He concludes by noting that sometimes the appropriate response to a request to participate is to escalate action, not to de-escalate.
posted by nubs at 12:41 PM on January 18, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by nubs at 12:41 PM on January 18, 2023 [2 favorites]
New OGL draft to be officially released by Friday latest with comment and review period to follow.Can't wait till the comment and review period opens up, so I can leave my feedback!
posted by Flunkie at 4:23 PM on January 18, 2023
Makenzie de Armas on the current Wizards process for using player feed back, referencing a recent 2021 book.
A bunch of people have gotten way out over their skis here and are repeating speculation as truthinesses.
posted by bonehead at 8:23 PM on January 18, 2023 [1 favorite]
A bunch of people have gotten way out over their skis here and are repeating speculation as truthinesses.
posted by bonehead at 8:23 PM on January 18, 2023 [1 favorite]
D&D Beyond denies the AI DM, $30 fee, etc. rumor. Even a denial that plausible isn't getting a warm reception in view of how unreliable and non-responsive their other statements have been.
posted by Wobbuffet at 8:38 PM on January 18, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by Wobbuffet at 8:38 PM on January 18, 2023 [1 favorite]
Read the user feedback, don't read the user feedback, to-MAY-to to-MAH-to
Unless WotC agrees to remove or drastically reduce the percentage they take from "Qualifying Revenue", waive their perpetual royalty-free sublicense to sell other people's work, make the new OGL perpetual and irrevocable, and also clarify the Indemnity part, I don't see this gaining much traction with third party publishers.
Also the suspicion that WotC is gunning for other VTT providers is going to raise hackles with Roll20 and Discord users.
posted by The Pluto Gangsta at 8:41 PM on January 18, 2023 [2 favorites]
Unless WotC agrees to remove or drastically reduce the percentage they take from "Qualifying Revenue", waive their perpetual royalty-free sublicense to sell other people's work, make the new OGL perpetual and irrevocable, and also clarify the Indemnity part, I don't see this gaining much traction with third party publishers.
Also the suspicion that WotC is gunning for other VTT providers is going to raise hackles with Roll20 and Discord users.
posted by The Pluto Gangsta at 8:41 PM on January 18, 2023 [2 favorites]
Last time the OSR and PbtA games happened as a reaction to the over-mechanization/boardgamization of D&D. One positive is that I think we're going to continue to see "rulings not rules" and "narrative forward" game developments.
I have been very much getting into rules-light games such as Mork Borg and Mothership lately, in which the game master has a heavier role in judging the effect of character efforts but the rules are much less in the way of telling a good story or having a good game experience.
Kyle Brink's statement is an improvement over the earlier, anonymous D&D Beyond attempt, but it remains to be seen if Wizards' actions will regain the community's trust. But I doubt they could simply ignore feedback and then just go ahead with whatever OGL they wanted to do in the first place, because discussion is and will be much more public thanks to the Internet. It'd be obvious if they did and the consequences in terms of the community would be worse.
posted by Gelatin at 4:20 AM on January 19, 2023 [1 favorite]
I have been very much getting into rules-light games such as Mork Borg and Mothership lately, in which the game master has a heavier role in judging the effect of character efforts but the rules are much less in the way of telling a good story or having a good game experience.
Kyle Brink's statement is an improvement over the earlier, anonymous D&D Beyond attempt, but it remains to be seen if Wizards' actions will regain the community's trust. But I doubt they could simply ignore feedback and then just go ahead with whatever OGL they wanted to do in the first place, because discussion is and will be much more public thanks to the Internet. It'd be obvious if they did and the consequences in terms of the community would be worse.
posted by Gelatin at 4:20 AM on January 19, 2023 [1 favorite]
Draft of OGL 1.2 is now up for review. Survey is coming tomorrow.
posted by nubs at 3:25 PM on January 19, 2023
posted by nubs at 3:25 PM on January 19, 2023
“Dungeon and Dragons New OGL and the Backlash It Drew”—Roll for Crit, 19 January 2023
posted by ob1quixote at 4:39 PM on January 19, 2023
posted by ob1quixote at 4:39 PM on January 19, 2023
Guess we'll see soon if I'm reading too much into that.
On a quick skim, it looks like I was reading too much into it. Not seeing a ton of changes from the OGL 1.0. Still not crazy about the de-authorizing the OGL 1.0.
But unless I'm missing something big this seems mostly like a fun detour in the history of the game: Hasbro/WotC reminded casual players that they are a corporation and D&D is a product they want to make money on, while failing to actually claw back control of the bits they wanted. So they take a hit without ruining the D&D infrastructure for those who like playing or need to make 3rd party content to pay the bills.
posted by mark k at 5:21 PM on January 19, 2023 [1 favorite]
On a quick skim, it looks like I was reading too much into it. Not seeing a ton of changes from the OGL 1.0. Still not crazy about the de-authorizing the OGL 1.0.
But unless I'm missing something big this seems mostly like a fun detour in the history of the game: Hasbro/WotC reminded casual players that they are a corporation and D&D is a product they want to make money on, while failing to actually claw back control of the bits they wanted. So they take a hit without ruining the D&D infrastructure for those who like playing or need to make 3rd party content to pay the bills.
posted by mark k at 5:21 PM on January 19, 2023 [1 favorite]
As it stands, it seems like the 1.2 draft kills off new publications for 3.5-based ecosystems (if any still exist), as well as non-VTT software that was allowed under the old OGL software FAQ. I'm sure there's more, but a process to identify and reconsider unpopular elements case by case is something--a minmaxable something but also not unilateral.
posted by Wobbuffet at 6:28 PM on January 19, 2023
posted by Wobbuffet at 6:28 PM on January 19, 2023
As it stands, it seems like the 1.2 draft kills off new publications for 3.5-based ecosystems (if any still exist)
I didn't think of that. Is this because it only covers the current SRD?
Pathfinder 1e is still quite active in the hobby. AFAIK Paizo's not doing anything with it but I'm sure there's some 3rd party stuff going on. Starfinder is at least a bit of 3.5e in its genes, though probably easy enough to sever from the old license.
posted by mark k at 7:03 PM on January 19, 2023 [1 favorite]
I didn't think of that. Is this because it only covers the current SRD?
Pathfinder 1e is still quite active in the hobby. AFAIK Paizo's not doing anything with it but I'm sure there's some 3rd party stuff going on. Starfinder is at least a bit of 3.5e in its genes, though probably easy enough to sever from the old license.
posted by mark k at 7:03 PM on January 19, 2023 [1 favorite]
Yeah, I just ran across them saying they're looking at older editions too, so maybe that's another objection they'll sort out.
posted by Wobbuffet at 7:05 PM on January 19, 2023
posted by Wobbuffet at 7:05 PM on January 19, 2023
D&D Beyond denies the AI DM, $30 fee, etc. rumor. Even a denial that plausible isn't getting a warm reception in view of how unreliable and non-responsive their other statements have been.
posted by Wobbuffet 4 days ago [1 favorite +] [!]
The $30 fee comes from statements of dissident employees, according to DND Shorts.
This report from DnD Shorts identifies Cao as the major malefactor, someone seeking to "Destroy DnD Beyond" (and all existing VTTs, e.g. "Kill Roll20" ) in order to turn Dnd into.... World of Warcraft? or, at least, DC Universe Online (which uses Unreal Engine).
I am sorry if i slandered MBAs earlier in this thread, you don't need an MBA to be an incompetent, no-nothing dead end executive.
Is there any way to save Wizards of the Coast from this evil Vice President? Surely a Movie Boycott is in order.
Should we all schedule our Roll20 games in Movie theatres during the Dnd Movie? A mass play-in?
posted by eustatic at 8:27 AM on January 22, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by Wobbuffet 4 days ago [1 favorite +] [!]
The $30 fee comes from statements of dissident employees, according to DND Shorts.
This report from DnD Shorts identifies Cao as the major malefactor, someone seeking to "Destroy DnD Beyond" (and all existing VTTs, e.g. "Kill Roll20" ) in order to turn Dnd into.... World of Warcraft? or, at least, DC Universe Online (which uses Unreal Engine).
I am sorry if i slandered MBAs earlier in this thread, you don't need an MBA to be an incompetent, no-nothing dead end executive.
Is there any way to save Wizards of the Coast from this evil Vice President? Surely a Movie Boycott is in order.
Should we all schedule our Roll20 games in Movie theatres during the Dnd Movie? A mass play-in?
posted by eustatic at 8:27 AM on January 22, 2023 [4 favorites]
So sure, there may never be a $30 fee for DnD Beyond, because the $30 fee is for "Dnd Sandcastle", the replacement for Dnd Beyond.
posted by eustatic at 8:40 AM on January 22, 2023
posted by eustatic at 8:40 AM on January 22, 2023
DNDShorts is the source of the rumor that WotC doesn't read player feedback. I don't consider credible them at this point. They seem mostly to want to stir the pot and drive views to their videos.
posted by bonehead at 6:00 PM on January 22, 2023
posted by bonehead at 6:00 PM on January 22, 2023
I think it's more accurate to say that the WotC sources that contacted him told him that feedback is not paid any attention in their departments, and that report later elicited comments from people in other departments who maintain that they do read feedback. Although it's been pointed out that the amount of person-work-hours it would take to meaningfully read/summarize the comments they receive is dauntingly large. So perhaps comments are read randomly, or perhaps a word-cloud is made through automated searching for phrases.
In any event, DNDShorts has made a final video on the topic laying out verbatim all the comments he's received thus far from 5 different, corroborated sources, and from this point he's encouraging everyone to go directly to Linda Codega.
posted by The Pluto Gangsta at 6:51 PM on January 22, 2023 [3 favorites]
In any event, DNDShorts has made a final video on the topic laying out verbatim all the comments he's received thus far from 5 different, corroborated sources, and from this point he's encouraging everyone to go directly to Linda Codega.
posted by The Pluto Gangsta at 6:51 PM on January 22, 2023 [3 favorites]
Although it's been pointed out that the amount of person-work-hours it would take to meaningfully read/summarize the comments they receive is dauntingly large. So perhaps comments are read randomly, or perhaps a word-cloud is made through automated searching for phrases.
The current OneD&D playtest survey asks participants to rate many, many aspects of the playtest on a numerical scale, and then offers a comment field for additional feedback.
Teasing out the most/least popular features from this numerical data would be pig simple, and there's little reason they couldn't do the same with the OGL ("Please rate your satisfaction with WotC by default acquiring the rights to reuse third party content") if they so chose.
posted by Gelatin at 4:28 AM on January 23, 2023
The current OneD&D playtest survey asks participants to rate many, many aspects of the playtest on a numerical scale, and then offers a comment field for additional feedback.
Teasing out the most/least popular features from this numerical data would be pig simple, and there's little reason they couldn't do the same with the OGL ("Please rate your satisfaction with WotC by default acquiring the rights to reuse third party content") if they so chose.
posted by Gelatin at 4:28 AM on January 23, 2023
I think there's a reason not to pull numerical data for this feedback, and it boils down to this: they can drag out the whole process by noting the high volume of responses and that it takes time to properly go through it all and take it into account. In short, they are buying time while waiting for this to cool down and figure out their next move. The most immediate and important feedback will continue to be financial.
Anecdotally, a friend of mine went down to our local game store over the weekend and found zero copies of Pathfinder 2.0 available, and the store wasn't sure when they would be able to get more.
posted by nubs at 6:39 AM on January 23, 2023
Anecdotally, a friend of mine went down to our local game store over the weekend and found zero copies of Pathfinder 2.0 available, and the store wasn't sure when they would be able to get more.
posted by nubs at 6:39 AM on January 23, 2023
Teasing out the most/least popular features from this numerical data would be pig simple, and there's little reason they couldn't do the same with the OGL
If they were pulling "scale of 1 to 5" numerical rankings for individual gameplay aspects and crunching numbers to show averages and trends and calling that "reading the comments", I would characterize that as misleading.
Truthfully, the rebuttals DNDShorts received indicate that some departments really were reading the typed-in comments they had collected, while other WotC employees maintain they never saw them. So perhaps it was restricted along department lines, or to managers only, or some other way. What can't be denied (even though WotC sure tried) is that they never solicited comments for the revision of the OGL: they released it as a fait accompli expecting third-party publishers would sign immediately, and really didn't spare a thought for how the community would react.
The context from the leaks at WotC indicate this is mainly the work of Chris Cao, who aims to push out all other virtual tabletop services and erode in-person play, with the goal of turning players and DMs alike into subscribers to the online service.
posted by The Pluto Gangsta at 8:30 AM on January 23, 2023 [6 favorites]
If they were pulling "scale of 1 to 5" numerical rankings for individual gameplay aspects and crunching numbers to show averages and trends and calling that "reading the comments", I would characterize that as misleading.
Truthfully, the rebuttals DNDShorts received indicate that some departments really were reading the typed-in comments they had collected, while other WotC employees maintain they never saw them. So perhaps it was restricted along department lines, or to managers only, or some other way. What can't be denied (even though WotC sure tried) is that they never solicited comments for the revision of the OGL: they released it as a fait accompli expecting third-party publishers would sign immediately, and really didn't spare a thought for how the community would react.
The context from the leaks at WotC indicate this is mainly the work of Chris Cao, who aims to push out all other virtual tabletop services and erode in-person play, with the goal of turning players and DMs alike into subscribers to the online service.
posted by The Pluto Gangsta at 8:30 AM on January 23, 2023 [6 favorites]
Chris Cao. Now there's a name I haven't heard in a long fucking time. Not since the Star Wars Galaxies NGE, where as near as I can tell, he was the creative director for the MMO revamp that was (and probably still is) synonymous with "setting your game on fire to light your cigarette." Then he apparently worked at Zynga, which... I doubt anyone needs me to draw those conclusions. Well. It all makes so much more sense now.
posted by restless_nomad at 8:49 AM on January 23, 2023 [8 favorites]
posted by restless_nomad at 8:49 AM on January 23, 2023 [8 favorites]
I'm not familiar with Star Wars Galaxies NGE, and so I could easily be misunderstanding, but from the article that restless_nomad linked to, I was surprised by this:
Sounds like the change was very poorly thought out in any case, but I'm getting the feeling that maybe I am wrong in my assumption about what the "holo-grinding" thing entailed, as well as the elimination of it.
posted by Flunkie at 10:28 AM on January 23, 2023 [1 favorite]
The NGE took what had been a skill-building character advancement system and transformed it into a level-based system with very specific classes. One of these classes was even the Jedi, meaning that players could create force-using characters from the very start. No more holo-grinding.I am guessing that the "holo-grinding" here was a way to train up your skills (and thereby advance towards, if you wanted, becoming a Jedi) in a rote manner, sucking up a lot of time and not "really" playing the game. What surprises me here is that Cao (whom I previously only known of from this D&D debacle) has consistently been portrayed as a "monetize everything" kind of guy, and I can't help but imagine that (from the point of view of such a person) "make grinding even worse but let people buy their way past it with real-life money" would be better than "get rid of grinding".
Sounds like the change was very poorly thought out in any case, but I'm getting the feeling that maybe I am wrong in my assumption about what the "holo-grinding" thing entailed, as well as the elimination of it.
posted by Flunkie at 10:28 AM on January 23, 2023 [1 favorite]
It took an open world game where you can do anything you feel like, and get better at it as you do it, and replaced it with a leveling system and fixed classes. It's not so much that one is better and one is worse, as it took one MMO archetype that the existing playerbase was there for and replaced it with a completely different archetype that the players, if they had wanted it, would have been playing a different game to get in the first place.
posted by restless_nomad at 10:41 AM on January 23, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by restless_nomad at 10:41 AM on January 23, 2023 [4 favorites]
Relevantly, the assumption was that the players were more devoted to the Star Wars IP than the actual playstyle of the game. It... was not the case. And insofar as it worked, it worked by alienating the entire existing playerbase and replacing them with a completely different group of people.
posted by restless_nomad at 10:42 AM on January 23, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by restless_nomad at 10:42 AM on January 23, 2023 [2 favorites]
I didn't play it but from what I remember reading at the time, holo-grinding was to obtain holo-chrons, which gave information on how to become a Jedi, which were hugely rare in the before-period of the game, so much that it was a long while before there were any Jedi in the game at all. The first person who managed to achieve Jedi-hood become a minor celebrity in the game at the time.
posted by JHarris at 12:17 PM on January 23, 2023
posted by JHarris at 12:17 PM on January 23, 2023
Hasbro to layoff 1000 workers - 15% of workforce.
posted by Mitheral at 9:19 PM on January 26, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by Mitheral at 9:19 PM on January 26, 2023 [1 favorite]
WotC announces no changes to OGL 1.0a
We are leaving OGL 1.0a in place, as is. Untouched.posted by Mitheral at 1:22 PM on January 27, 2023
We are also making the entire SRD 5.1 available under a Creative Commons license.
You choose which you prefer to use.
From the full post on D&D Beyond:
Already more than 15,000 of you have filled out the survey. Here's what you said:
- 88% do not want to publish TTRPG content under OGL 1.2.
- 90% would have to change some aspect of their business to accommodate OGL 1.2.
- 89% are dissatisfied with deauthorizing OGL 1.0a.
- 86% are dissatisfied with the draft VTT policy.
-62% are satisfied with including Systems Reference Document (SRD) content in Creative Commons, and the majority of those who were dissatisfied asked for more SRD content in Creative Commons....
...The feedback is in such high volume and its direction is so plain that we're acting now.
We are leaving OGL 1.0a in place, as is. Untouched.
We are also making the entire SRD 5.1 available under a Creative Commons license.
You choose which you prefer to use.
This Creative Commons license makes the content freely available for any use. We don't control that license and cannot alter or revoke it. It's open and irrevocable in a way that doesn't require you to take our word for it. And its openness means there's no need for a VTT policy. Placing the SRD under a Creative Commons license is a one-way door. There's no going back.
Our goal here is to deliver on what you wanted.
So, what about the goals that drove us when we started this process?
We wanted to protect the D&D play experience into the future. We still want to do that with your help. We're grateful that this community is passionate and active because we'll need your help protecting the game's inclusive and welcoming nature.
We wanted to limit the OGL to TTRPGs. With this new approach, we are setting that aside and counting on your choices to define the future of play.
Post also includes a link to a PDF of the SRD5.1, under a Creative Commons license; they wanted to include it to make it clear they mean this.
I would like to get hear some of the legal people who've been watching this share opinions, but...it seems like its over? We won?
posted by nubs at 2:02 PM on January 27, 2023 [4 favorites]
Already more than 15,000 of you have filled out the survey. Here's what you said:
- 88% do not want to publish TTRPG content under OGL 1.2.
- 90% would have to change some aspect of their business to accommodate OGL 1.2.
- 89% are dissatisfied with deauthorizing OGL 1.0a.
- 86% are dissatisfied with the draft VTT policy.
-62% are satisfied with including Systems Reference Document (SRD) content in Creative Commons, and the majority of those who were dissatisfied asked for more SRD content in Creative Commons....
...The feedback is in such high volume and its direction is so plain that we're acting now.
We are leaving OGL 1.0a in place, as is. Untouched.
We are also making the entire SRD 5.1 available under a Creative Commons license.
You choose which you prefer to use.
This Creative Commons license makes the content freely available for any use. We don't control that license and cannot alter or revoke it. It's open and irrevocable in a way that doesn't require you to take our word for it. And its openness means there's no need for a VTT policy. Placing the SRD under a Creative Commons license is a one-way door. There's no going back.
Our goal here is to deliver on what you wanted.
So, what about the goals that drove us when we started this process?
We wanted to protect the D&D play experience into the future. We still want to do that with your help. We're grateful that this community is passionate and active because we'll need your help protecting the game's inclusive and welcoming nature.
We wanted to limit the OGL to TTRPGs. With this new approach, we are setting that aside and counting on your choices to define the future of play.
Post also includes a link to a PDF of the SRD5.1, under a Creative Commons license; they wanted to include it to make it clear they mean this.
I would like to get hear some of the legal people who've been watching this share opinions, but...it seems like its over? We won?
posted by nubs at 2:02 PM on January 27, 2023 [4 favorites]
FWIW my non-lawyer reaction is, "Holy shit--that's the attribution license ..." It's hard for me to imagine a better outcome and seems like a stunning acceptance that this game has become folk culture they get to enjoy the benefits of owning trademarks on, leading by brand recognition and innovation rather than legal threat, etc.
posted by Wobbuffet at 2:39 PM on January 27, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by Wobbuffet at 2:39 PM on January 27, 2023 [1 favorite]
I'm also not a lawyer. My gut reaction is:
(1) This seems closer to the "The people who say they won are only half-right; they won, but we won too" patronizing crap that they previously wanted us to believe, and
(2) BUT I STILL WANT THEM TO LOSE
posted by Flunkie at 2:57 PM on January 27, 2023 [1 favorite]
(1) This seems closer to the "The people who say they won are only half-right; they won, but we won too" patronizing crap that they previously wanted us to believe, and
(2) BUT I STILL WANT THEM TO LOSE
posted by Flunkie at 2:57 PM on January 27, 2023 [1 favorite]
This is great! It also means, in a few years, this will all happen again, when once again the managers decide that D&D is undermonetized.
The Resurrection spell cast on D&D to come back from the dead after TSR's disasterous reaction to the beginning of the internet age, the OGL, is also the thing that WoTC/Hasbro thinks limits their ability to exploit it. It has always been in their sights since soon after it was established in the first place. This just kicks the ball down the road a bit. When the institutional memory of this moment has rotated out of the company and it's time to release another new version of D&D, because they don't see themselves as stewards of a community but owners of an IP.
posted by JHarris at 3:37 PM on January 27, 2023 [2 favorites]
The Resurrection spell cast on D&D to come back from the dead after TSR's disasterous reaction to the beginning of the internet age, the OGL, is also the thing that WoTC/Hasbro thinks limits their ability to exploit it. It has always been in their sights since soon after it was established in the first place. This just kicks the ball down the road a bit. When the institutional memory of this moment has rotated out of the company and it's time to release another new version of D&D, because they don't see themselves as stewards of a community but owners of an IP.
posted by JHarris at 3:37 PM on January 27, 2023 [2 favorites]
Sure looks to me like a complete victory for the already existing games and content using the OGL.
I have a reddit account more or less exclusively for RPG purposes, and my feed has been unusable because it has been filled with things either directly related to the OGL, or with 5e players announcing they are moving to Pathfinder 2e, can you please help with the rules.
Paizo has apparently gone through eight months of inventory in two weeks--their president was apologizing on Reddit for their delays. I suspect there's a permanent damage to the D&D brand, or at least one that sticks with it through this cohort of players. On the other side, I hope Paizo management there is now thinking about their own scandal just 18 months ago and thinking "Good thing we recognized the union without much of a fuss and look like the goody guys here."
(Somewhat ironically, I love Pathfinder, but suspect is not actually the best fit for many of the new players. Even in the "basically D&D" space I feel sorry that the rules-looser 13th Age isn't getting a good look. Hopefully I'm wrong and everyone who settles into a new system has fun.)
posted by mark k at 4:13 PM on January 27, 2023 [3 favorites]
I have a reddit account more or less exclusively for RPG purposes, and my feed has been unusable because it has been filled with things either directly related to the OGL, or with 5e players announcing they are moving to Pathfinder 2e, can you please help with the rules.
Paizo has apparently gone through eight months of inventory in two weeks--their president was apologizing on Reddit for their delays. I suspect there's a permanent damage to the D&D brand, or at least one that sticks with it through this cohort of players. On the other side, I hope Paizo management there is now thinking about their own scandal just 18 months ago and thinking "Good thing we recognized the union without much of a fuss and look like the goody guys here."
(Somewhat ironically, I love Pathfinder, but suspect is not actually the best fit for many of the new players. Even in the "basically D&D" space I feel sorry that the rules-looser 13th Age isn't getting a good look. Hopefully I'm wrong and everyone who settles into a new system has fun.)
posted by mark k at 4:13 PM on January 27, 2023 [3 favorites]
The chatter in the RPG circles that I run in on Mastodon seem to think this is not so much a victory as a go-away noise to the angry nerd folk. The theory is that if the nerds will shut up and go away, Hasbro/WOTC will be able to monetize D&D going forward by doing all the 6E stuff behind paywalls.
I'm not sure this is the case but it might be. My current theory is Hasbro wanted to get their foot out of their mouth before they ruined the D&D movie and further money-making on TV by making their IP toxic.
posted by gentlyepigrams at 5:52 PM on January 27, 2023 [2 favorites]
I'm not sure this is the case but it might be. My current theory is Hasbro wanted to get their foot out of their mouth before they ruined the D&D movie and further money-making on TV by making their IP toxic.
posted by gentlyepigrams at 5:52 PM on January 27, 2023 [2 favorites]
I very much suspect they will build 6e the way they want - a subscription model with a walled garden. Maybe it will work; I suspect it won’t because IMHO a lot of bringing in the next generation of players is dependent on the game being fairly accessible in terms of the books, seeing people play, taking part in a one shot etc - I think people need to see/feel how it sparks the imagination before really taking the plunge to learn it and buying in. If its closed off, it leaves the rest of the industry all the room to take the space over.
posted by nubs at 6:40 PM on January 27, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by nubs at 6:40 PM on January 27, 2023 [3 favorites]
But, and this is the bet WOTC is making if my guess for 6e is correct, if they can create an amazingly superior product and experience, then people will come. So good on them I guess.
posted by nubs at 7:05 PM on January 27, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by nubs at 7:05 PM on January 27, 2023 [1 favorite]
Dnd is like that, the marketing for the game is nigh impossible--and thus streamers seem pretty essential to recruiting customers in a way that doesn't exist in other businesses.
The high barrier to entry and impossible community is an asset. But that is not something the legal system really understands, so we will be back here again.
It seems like the majority of staff at WoTC might believe that they need the community to fight off nazi gamers and build acceptance of changes like the move to "species"...
Having those efforts be tied to a Pillaging of the Commons was too much.
But thiss doesn't mean the end, we still have the same legal system, based on property and Enclosure, and putting the peasants' heads on pikes.
People could really go further, and demand Chris Cao be fired. That would trim back the menace for a good while at least. That would make some institutional memory. But I don't know if the community has that kind of fire in their bellies.
posted by eustatic at 8:00 PM on January 27, 2023 [1 favorite]
The high barrier to entry and impossible community is an asset. But that is not something the legal system really understands, so we will be back here again.
It seems like the majority of staff at WoTC might believe that they need the community to fight off nazi gamers and build acceptance of changes like the move to "species"...
Having those efforts be tied to a Pillaging of the Commons was too much.
But thiss doesn't mean the end, we still have the same legal system, based on property and Enclosure, and putting the peasants' heads on pikes.
People could really go further, and demand Chris Cao be fired. That would trim back the menace for a good while at least. That would make some institutional memory. But I don't know if the community has that kind of fire in their bellies.
posted by eustatic at 8:00 PM on January 27, 2023 [1 favorite]
I don’t want to demand anyone be fired over this, but I do expect that there is some level of internal reckoning about to happen. This was a shitstorm that caused bad press, a large surge for at least one competitor, and a deep level of mistrust with the community. The appeal to the community to help protect the game’s inclusiveness feels hollow to me; an attempt to keep making this whole debacle look like it came from a place of concern and moral fiber instead of the monetization power play it was.
posted by nubs at 9:46 PM on January 27, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by nubs at 9:46 PM on January 27, 2023 [2 favorites]
I’m delighted and surprised by this outcome. It’s good to feel like the community won through solidarity and strength - and that’s certainly partly true. I think it’s also just that we called their bluff. This reversal could be in large part because of lawyers internally pointing out that if all this stuff actually went to court it was quit likely they’d lose the case and competitors would have an even more open playground than the OGL and commons SRD.
I’m still thinking this will be a net good for the community as creators spread their eggs to more baskets and the short term threat of legal interference has been fully lifted. Maybe we’ll repeat in eight years, but way too soon to worry about that now.
posted by meinvt at 6:27 AM on January 28, 2023 [4 favorites]
I’m still thinking this will be a net good for the community as creators spread their eggs to more baskets and the short term threat of legal interference has been fully lifted. Maybe we’ll repeat in eight years, but way too soon to worry about that now.
posted by meinvt at 6:27 AM on January 28, 2023 [4 favorites]
Linda Codega interviewed Matt Mercer and Marisha Ray on the record about their future projects and (what they can say about) the OpenDnD movement.
posted by The Pluto Gangsta at 6:44 PM on January 29, 2023
posted by The Pluto Gangsta at 6:44 PM on January 29, 2023
This is great! It also means, in a few years, this will all happen again, when once again the managers decide that D&D is undermonetized.
And if the businesses who depend on it are smart--and they have some very smart people working for them--they won't be caught by surprise the next time. And WotC won't get another chance.
posted by Halloween Jack at 8:02 AM on January 30, 2023 [1 favorite]
And if the businesses who depend on it are smart--and they have some very smart people working for them--they won't be caught by surprise the next time. And WotC won't get another chance.
posted by Halloween Jack at 8:02 AM on January 30, 2023 [1 favorite]
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Not being in any way a legal expert on this stuff -- does the new license threaten Pathfinder 1e and 2e? Could it drive Paizo out of business? Roll20? Kobold Press? Critical Role?
I couldn't imagine a worse thing happening to the RPG community, especially now at the height of its popularity. Would a company actually and willingly destroy the community that consumes it?
posted by touchstone033 at 10:19 AM on January 9, 2023 [6 favorites]