Adult Swim Drops Justin Roiland After Domestic Abuse Charges
January 25, 2023 6:10 AM Subscribe
Adult Swim has cut ties with Justin Roiland in the wake of the news that the Rick and Morty co-creator was charged with felony domestic abuse in Orange County. Sources say the show is set to continue, with Roiland’s voice roles to be recast. Though Roiland will still be credited as co-creator, fellow co-creator Dan Harmon will now be the lone showrunner. The show is locked in through season 10.
Apparently he also faces potentially seven years in prison.
I can only imagine what a nightmare it must be to have an abusive partner who also has huge legions of fans. I'm glad she's been able to preserve her anonymity, and hope it sticks.
posted by nightcoast at 6:22 AM on January 25, 2023 [31 favorites]
I can only imagine what a nightmare it must be to have an abusive partner who also has huge legions of fans. I'm glad she's been able to preserve her anonymity, and hope it sticks.
posted by nightcoast at 6:22 AM on January 25, 2023 [31 favorites]
With some of Rick and Morty's core demographics being what they are, the fallout from this could get ugly in so many ways.
Curious to see how they handle the recast, though. They could aim for someone who can imitate Roiland to an incredible level of accuracy, or they could just say "fuck it" and just have the main characters sound completely different all of a sudden, deliberately giving the most ridiculous explanation possible for it—and still make it make sense in the context of the show.
posted by jklaiho at 6:23 AM on January 25, 2023 [29 favorites]
Curious to see how they handle the recast, though. They could aim for someone who can imitate Roiland to an incredible level of accuracy, or they could just say "fuck it" and just have the main characters sound completely different all of a sudden, deliberately giving the most ridiculous explanation possible for it—and still make it make sense in the context of the show.
posted by jklaiho at 6:23 AM on January 25, 2023 [29 favorites]
deliberately giving the most ridiculous explanation possible for it—and still make it make sense in the context of the show
Rick and Morty lives on the most ridiculous explanation possible for it so this wouldn't be a hard lift.
posted by jmauro at 6:26 AM on January 25, 2023 [6 favorites]
Rick and Morty lives on the most ridiculous explanation possible for it so this wouldn't be a hard lift.
posted by jmauro at 6:26 AM on January 25, 2023 [6 favorites]
The show has also been more and more about personal growth, so the notion that change is good/necessary fits its current style. I'd be surprised if the show doesn't address this all, for better or for worse (also Dan Harmon has the least ability to filter his meta tendencies of any artist I've seen...)
It's just sad - sometimes it feels like the world is just King Jellybean all the way down.
posted by nightcoast at 6:31 AM on January 25, 2023 [14 favorites]
It's just sad - sometimes it feels like the world is just King Jellybean all the way down.
posted by nightcoast at 6:31 AM on January 25, 2023 [14 favorites]
Seems there's also a growing amount of online chatter related to grooming, reminiscent of John K.
posted by brachiopod at 6:37 AM on January 25, 2023 [8 favorites]
posted by brachiopod at 6:37 AM on January 25, 2023 [8 favorites]
I'm going to make a weird comparison here, but stay with me... this is a bit like the George Santos situation.
There are who knows how many other abusers, grifters, etc. out there slipping past our public radar, because news organizations no longer have the staff to have beat reporters regularly checking court docs, vetting candidates, etc.
The cost savings to news orgs are something we are all paying for these days.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 6:39 AM on January 25, 2023 [26 favorites]
There are who knows how many other abusers, grifters, etc. out there slipping past our public radar, because news organizations no longer have the staff to have beat reporters regularly checking court docs, vetting candidates, etc.
The cost savings to news orgs are something we are all paying for these days.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 6:39 AM on January 25, 2023 [26 favorites]
John K is the right comparison, @brachiopod. A beloved, boundary-pushing cartoon with a unique style that has delightfully absurdist humor - with an ampersand in the title! - turns out to be created by a real piece of predatory scheize. At least John K was booted midway through season 2.
I don't see how the characters of Rick & Morty can be effectively voiced by anyone besides JR, though. Time to just retire this show.
posted by grumpybear69 at 6:46 AM on January 25, 2023 [10 favorites]
I don't see how the characters of Rick & Morty can be effectively voiced by anyone besides JR, though. Time to just retire this show.
posted by grumpybear69 at 6:46 AM on January 25, 2023 [10 favorites]
Is Tracy Morgan busy?
posted by Robin Kestrel at 6:48 AM on January 25, 2023 [9 favorites]
posted by Robin Kestrel at 6:48 AM on January 25, 2023 [9 favorites]
I don't see how the characters of Rick & Morty can be effectively voiced by anyone besides JR, though.
It's pretty commonplace that top animation voice actors can also do dead-on versions of many characters they do not themselves play. There are probably at least half a dozen pros who could do either/both voices without needing to even clear their throat first.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 6:50 AM on January 25, 2023 [28 favorites]
It's pretty commonplace that top animation voice actors can also do dead-on versions of many characters they do not themselves play. There are probably at least half a dozen pros who could do either/both voices without needing to even clear their throat first.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 6:50 AM on January 25, 2023 [28 favorites]
John K did the voice of Ren, and he was pretty seamlessly replaced with Billy West voicing both Ren and Stimpy.
posted by 1970s Antihero at 6:53 AM on January 25, 2023 [27 favorites]
posted by 1970s Antihero at 6:53 AM on January 25, 2023 [27 favorites]
Seems there's also a growing amount of online chatter related to grooming, reminiscent of John K.
I mostly see it in the context of terrible people getting mad about things like trans healthcare and LGBTQ books in libraries.
posted by zamboni at 7:02 AM on January 25, 2023 [6 favorites]
I mostly see it in the context of terrible people getting mad about things like trans healthcare and LGBTQ books in libraries.
posted by zamboni at 7:02 AM on January 25, 2023 [6 favorites]
There's more context of awfulness here. Justin Roiland out at "High on Life" studio Squanch Games after felony charges. He resigned Jan 16 according to the announcement.
And from two weeks ago Justin Roiland’s "High On Life" Studio Was Previously Sued For Sexual Harassment. Not specifically about Roiland; that lawsuit named technical director Jeff Dixon as the primary harasser with the rest of the company not culpable in taking the employee's reports seriously.
And from 2018, ‘Community’ Creator Dan Harmon Admits Sexually Harassing Ex-Employee. That story is mostly remembered because Harmon delivered an apology that seemed thorough and genuine. But apparently he was OK working closely with Roiland. It's hard for me to imagine folks just didn't know at all about the felony charges against Roiland from May 2020.
I've enjoyed Rick & Morty but it always had this streak of creepy meanness to it that made me increasingly uncomfortable. Gosh, I wonder where it comes from?
posted by Nelson at 7:04 AM on January 25, 2023 [28 favorites]
And from two weeks ago Justin Roiland’s "High On Life" Studio Was Previously Sued For Sexual Harassment. Not specifically about Roiland; that lawsuit named technical director Jeff Dixon as the primary harasser with the rest of the company not culpable in taking the employee's reports seriously.
And from 2018, ‘Community’ Creator Dan Harmon Admits Sexually Harassing Ex-Employee. That story is mostly remembered because Harmon delivered an apology that seemed thorough and genuine. But apparently he was OK working closely with Roiland. It's hard for me to imagine folks just didn't know at all about the felony charges against Roiland from May 2020.
I've enjoyed Rick & Morty but it always had this streak of creepy meanness to it that made me increasingly uncomfortable. Gosh, I wonder where it comes from?
posted by Nelson at 7:04 AM on January 25, 2023 [28 favorites]
"Boy, puberty's really doing a number on that kid."
"Does Rick sound different to you?"
"Maybe he's drinking less."
[canned laughter]
posted by Etrigan at 7:06 AM on January 25, 2023 [6 favorites]
"Does Rick sound different to you?"
"Maybe he's drinking less."
[canned laughter]
posted by Etrigan at 7:06 AM on January 25, 2023 [6 favorites]
I think it would be pretty hilarious to pull a Snuffy Smith and just move the focus to other characters in the show. Change the name after a season. Cobbling together a ten second intro from recording outtakes where they go through some kind of portal to a world that’s eerily close to theirs, with differences they will never notice, then dropping in new voice actors and never saying anything, would work fine within the structure of the show.
And yeah, it sure feels like this situation rhymes with John K. Except Roiland was a lot better at barely scraping through a deadline, or at building the support structure to repeatedly lie to him about the actual deadlines so he got off his ass and did his part of the job. He made it through six seasons versus John’s two. I think I only made it through like one though.
posted by egypturnash at 7:09 AM on January 25, 2023 [1 favorite]
And yeah, it sure feels like this situation rhymes with John K. Except Roiland was a lot better at barely scraping through a deadline, or at building the support structure to repeatedly lie to him about the actual deadlines so he got off his ass and did his part of the job. He made it through six seasons versus John’s two. I think I only made it through like one though.
posted by egypturnash at 7:09 AM on January 25, 2023 [1 favorite]
“Does your voice sound different?”
“Yeah, I’m being played by a different actor. Don’t you read the media?”
posted by Phanx at 7:11 AM on January 25, 2023 [26 favorites]
“Yeah, I’m being played by a different actor. Don’t you read the media?”
posted by Phanx at 7:11 AM on January 25, 2023 [26 favorites]
I mean, there have been six Bugs Bunny voice actors since Mel Blanc, and it's not like Bugs Bunny became unrecognizable.
I do not believe that replacing Justin Roiland as Rick and Morty presents a higher match-the-voice/equal-the-artistry challenge as succeeding Mel frigging Blanc as Bugs.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 7:12 AM on January 25, 2023 [42 favorites]
I do not believe that replacing Justin Roiland as Rick and Morty presents a higher match-the-voice/equal-the-artistry challenge as succeeding Mel frigging Blanc as Bugs.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 7:12 AM on January 25, 2023 [42 favorites]
Doesn't Roiland still own a chunk of the show though? Like even if he's "fired" from the cast and crew doesn't he profit from its continued existence?
posted by Lentrohamsanin at 7:12 AM on January 25, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by Lentrohamsanin at 7:12 AM on January 25, 2023 [1 favorite]
I really hope they do a pointed "Fuck Nazis and Nazi Fans" moment, but for creepy abusers
posted by lalochezia at 7:16 AM on January 25, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by lalochezia at 7:16 AM on January 25, 2023 [3 favorites]
I don't see how the characters of Rick & Morty can be effectively voiced by anyone besides JR, though.
I was actually surprised to learn that Roiland did Morty, because Harmon does a very similar voice.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 7:17 AM on January 25, 2023 [3 favorites]
I was actually surprised to learn that Roiland did Morty, because Harmon does a very similar voice.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 7:17 AM on January 25, 2023 [3 favorites]
dis_integration and nelson make a good point - I hadn't realized that he was arrested back in 2020. I don't really know about how this works, but why didn't this come up then? It does make the idea of continuing the show feel worse if they just knew about it the whole time...
posted by nightcoast at 7:20 AM on January 25, 2023
posted by nightcoast at 7:20 AM on January 25, 2023
I watched the first season of Rick and Morty back in the day, though the slightly-off-putting guy I was living with was into it in a way that left me a bit unsettled.
In particular, he was into the original "Doc and Mharti" short that Rick and Morty was based off, which is just a long extended joke about Doc Brown being a pedophile. And... look, I get it, I love deeply dark humor, I think that transgression in the right hands can be a powerful thing... but there was something really gross about something taking that particular joke and running it into the ground.
The season of Rick and Morty that I saw felt like it went to similar territories at times: presenting the barest fig leaf of "no, this is commentary about sexual assault" when it was clearly just getting its rocks off depicting terrible things happening for no reason. It reminded me of, well, the early Internet Flash artists who loved making similar jokes, a lot of whom went on to commit domestic abuse, sexual assault, and pedophilia. Sometimes callousness in the name of humor masks a genuine lack of empathy.
Anyway, I dove off the R&M train pretty quickly, so the part of these processions that I found most upsetting was that Roiland apparently tried to groom underage teens for Alex "Gravity Falls" Hirsch—a guy who I'd personally prefer not turn out to be a sex pest too.
posted by Tom Hanks Cannot Be Trusted at 7:30 AM on January 25, 2023 [15 favorites]
In particular, he was into the original "Doc and Mharti" short that Rick and Morty was based off, which is just a long extended joke about Doc Brown being a pedophile. And... look, I get it, I love deeply dark humor, I think that transgression in the right hands can be a powerful thing... but there was something really gross about something taking that particular joke and running it into the ground.
The season of Rick and Morty that I saw felt like it went to similar territories at times: presenting the barest fig leaf of "no, this is commentary about sexual assault" when it was clearly just getting its rocks off depicting terrible things happening for no reason. It reminded me of, well, the early Internet Flash artists who loved making similar jokes, a lot of whom went on to commit domestic abuse, sexual assault, and pedophilia. Sometimes callousness in the name of humor masks a genuine lack of empathy.
Anyway, I dove off the R&M train pretty quickly, so the part of these processions that I found most upsetting was that Roiland apparently tried to groom underage teens for Alex "Gravity Falls" Hirsch—a guy who I'd personally prefer not turn out to be a sex pest too.
posted by Tom Hanks Cannot Be Trusted at 7:30 AM on January 25, 2023 [15 favorites]
I think it would be pretty hilarious to pull a Snuffy Smith and just move the focus to other characters in the show.
Summer and Space Beth.
posted by Halloween Jack at 7:31 AM on January 25, 2023 [17 favorites]
Summer and Space Beth.
posted by Halloween Jack at 7:31 AM on January 25, 2023 [17 favorites]
Dan Harmon has repeatedly - in public and on record - shown himself to be a misogynist at best . He frequently attributes his behaviors to alcohol abuse, but I haven't been keeping up on whether he has addressed - in public - if that is still a problem.
That someone Harmon worked closely with is also a human being comprised of Abusive Red Flags .. doesn't surprise me? People often make friends with people who have the same *general* moral compass and bar for social transgressions as they do.
Should everyone involved in the production of Rick & Morty be punished by association? Absolutely Not - but perhaps it's time that particular Animated product be put out to pasture.
It's a *certain kind of niche * and one that just keeps getting more rancid and regressive.
posted by Faintdreams at 7:43 AM on January 25, 2023 [2 favorites]
That someone Harmon worked closely with is also a human being comprised of Abusive Red Flags .. doesn't surprise me? People often make friends with people who have the same *general* moral compass and bar for social transgressions as they do.
Should everyone involved in the production of Rick & Morty be punished by association? Absolutely Not - but perhaps it's time that particular Animated product be put out to pasture.
It's a *certain kind of niche * and one that just keeps getting more rancid and regressive.
posted by Faintdreams at 7:43 AM on January 25, 2023 [2 favorites]
The huge problem with "satire" like R&M is that the people it claims to directly mock take it as an endorsement. Which is why the whole genre of edgelord comedy really needs to go away. If you can't punch up, just fucking sit down.
posted by seanmpuckett at 7:47 AM on January 25, 2023 [22 favorites]
posted by seanmpuckett at 7:47 AM on January 25, 2023 [22 favorites]
I'm not interested in signing up to be Harmon's defender, as I'm no R&M superfan or anything.
But the entire last several years of Harmon's public life and the direction of the last few seasons of Rick & Morty have largely focused on how to move forward when you understand you've become a real piece of shit and have hurt people, and how someone like that cannot be a worthy or functional human being without doing real work to try to become better. Starting with the third season, the writing staff has been half female. Grace Freud (who is a trans woman) is on staff, too. The show is regularly focused on its female characters, routinely rails against sexism, and is overall obsessed with "Can a guy who was terrible learn to be better?"
It's fair if you don't buy his public apologies, the extended interviews he's given on reassessing his life, offering himself up as accountable, the seeming changes he has made to the show as a workplace and to its storylines. It's also fair if you think it's not enough. It's most certainly fair if Roiland working there for three years after being arrested makes you dubious of the entire thing.
But if you're dismissing the show based on its first season or so and its creator based on what you know about him from years before he did a fairly public attempt at turning himself around on misogyny, you're working from pretty out of date information and both Harmon and the show itself may have presented much more savage commentary on themselves than you're even doing now.
I mean, buy it or don't. I have no investment. But keep up, at least.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 8:00 AM on January 25, 2023 [74 favorites]
But the entire last several years of Harmon's public life and the direction of the last few seasons of Rick & Morty have largely focused on how to move forward when you understand you've become a real piece of shit and have hurt people, and how someone like that cannot be a worthy or functional human being without doing real work to try to become better. Starting with the third season, the writing staff has been half female. Grace Freud (who is a trans woman) is on staff, too. The show is regularly focused on its female characters, routinely rails against sexism, and is overall obsessed with "Can a guy who was terrible learn to be better?"
It's fair if you don't buy his public apologies, the extended interviews he's given on reassessing his life, offering himself up as accountable, the seeming changes he has made to the show as a workplace and to its storylines. It's also fair if you think it's not enough. It's most certainly fair if Roiland working there for three years after being arrested makes you dubious of the entire thing.
But if you're dismissing the show based on its first season or so and its creator based on what you know about him from years before he did a fairly public attempt at turning himself around on misogyny, you're working from pretty out of date information and both Harmon and the show itself may have presented much more savage commentary on themselves than you're even doing now.
I mean, buy it or don't. I have no investment. But keep up, at least.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 8:00 AM on January 25, 2023 [74 favorites]
And yet here we are with Harmon's creative partner being fired / resigning in disgrace over felony sexual assault charges. From 2+ years ago, during which time Harmon kept working with him. I guess a lot of judgement on Harmon hinges on whether Harmon can plausibly claim to not have known.
posted by Nelson at 8:03 AM on January 25, 2023 [9 favorites]
posted by Nelson at 8:03 AM on January 25, 2023 [9 favorites]
Or perhaps a whole variety of things like whether he was contractually obliged to keep doing his job...
posted by opsin at 8:08 AM on January 25, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by opsin at 8:08 AM on January 25, 2023 [2 favorites]
I wish Harmontown was still going on. I'd listen to Dan get drunk and tell his side of it.
posted by paper chromatographologist at 8:12 AM on January 25, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by paper chromatographologist at 8:12 AM on January 25, 2023 [2 favorites]
Great, once again creepy guys are tainting the legacy of things I enjoyed. Things that were only fully realised thanks to teams of talented artists who never deserved to have their work forever associated with these abusive showrunners.
posted by neonamber at 8:22 AM on January 25, 2023 [10 favorites]
posted by neonamber at 8:22 AM on January 25, 2023 [10 favorites]
I made the mistake of reviewing screenshots attributed to Roiland and it's not exaggerating to say I'm sick to my stomach. I didn't expect that reaction. I'm not linking them, can't vouch for their veracity, but it's quacking like a very ducky duck.
posted by abulafa at 8:37 AM on January 25, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by abulafa at 8:37 AM on January 25, 2023 [2 favorites]
according to Wikipedia, Harmon has been working with Roiland since at least 2008 with R&M starting up in 2013
I know people can hide a lot at home but it would be pretty surprising to me to learn that Harmon had no clue that Roiland was going to court dates, dealing with the legal bureaucracy that is the criminal justice system, etc for the three years since formal charges especially when the charges are felony count of domestic battery
Domestic violence is generally charged as a misdemeanor offense rather than a felony, unless the incident caused an injury or involved a deadly weapon. A pattern of abuse can also elevate domestic violence to a felony.
with corporal injury
a broken bone,
a bullet wound,
a ligament sprain or a strained muscle,
a bruise,
a cut or a laceration,
internal bleeding, or
a concussion.
and false imprisonment by menace, violence, fraud and/or deceit
"In another example, a man and a woman get into a heated argument. The woman tries to walk away, however the man grabs her arm and prevents her from leaving. This man could not be prosecuted for felony false imprisonment, as he used only used minimal force in restraining the woman."
since the implication is Roiland's partner here was trying to escape what was probably already an emotionally abusive situation (and likely also physically abusive) and Roiland prevented them from leaving by means of physical violence. with how corporate HR are these days, the studio was definitely aware and Harmon, being a public showrunner and PR, was likely also aware of these charges
he and the studio then decided to continue working with Roiland for three whole years after which makes this bit of Harmon's apology for his sexual harassment of another employee
Because if you don’t think about it, you’re going to get away with not thinking about it and you can cause a lot of damage [...] And I think we’re living in a good time right now because we’re not gonna to get away with it anymore. If we can make it part of our culture that we think about it and possibly talk about it, then maybe we can get to a better place where that stuff doesn’t happen.
pretty fucking dishonest don't you think?
posted by paimapi at 8:41 AM on January 25, 2023 [10 favorites]
I know people can hide a lot at home but it would be pretty surprising to me to learn that Harmon had no clue that Roiland was going to court dates, dealing with the legal bureaucracy that is the criminal justice system, etc for the three years since formal charges especially when the charges are felony count of domestic battery
Domestic violence is generally charged as a misdemeanor offense rather than a felony, unless the incident caused an injury or involved a deadly weapon. A pattern of abuse can also elevate domestic violence to a felony.
with corporal injury
a broken bone,
a bullet wound,
a ligament sprain or a strained muscle,
a bruise,
a cut or a laceration,
internal bleeding, or
a concussion.
and false imprisonment by menace, violence, fraud and/or deceit
"In another example, a man and a woman get into a heated argument. The woman tries to walk away, however the man grabs her arm and prevents her from leaving. This man could not be prosecuted for felony false imprisonment, as he used only used minimal force in restraining the woman."
since the implication is Roiland's partner here was trying to escape what was probably already an emotionally abusive situation (and likely also physically abusive) and Roiland prevented them from leaving by means of physical violence. with how corporate HR are these days, the studio was definitely aware and Harmon, being a public showrunner and PR, was likely also aware of these charges
he and the studio then decided to continue working with Roiland for three whole years after which makes this bit of Harmon's apology for his sexual harassment of another employee
Because if you don’t think about it, you’re going to get away with not thinking about it and you can cause a lot of damage [...] And I think we’re living in a good time right now because we’re not gonna to get away with it anymore. If we can make it part of our culture that we think about it and possibly talk about it, then maybe we can get to a better place where that stuff doesn’t happen.
pretty fucking dishonest don't you think?
posted by paimapi at 8:41 AM on January 25, 2023 [10 favorites]
The show is regularly focused on its female characters, routinely rails against sexism, and is overall obsessed with "Can a guy who was terrible learn to be better?"
It is, but it's not.
I have a lot of feelings about this, as someone who has multiple men who I care deeply about who are really invested in Rick & Morty. And they see it, and they see those bits, and those bits are real, but...those bits are so, so tiny. So, so superficial. Because Rick & Morty are so, so big and so, so problematic, and the big parts are never actually addressed. So the real lesson that it teaches is not 'can a guy who was terrible learn to be better' but rather, 'Can a guy who is terrible make the faintest of tiny moves towards being better, and get credit for getting better, while still continuing to do terrible things?'
Look at how sexuality and romance continue to be handled even in the later seasons. Is it ever good for the women? Does it ever respect their agency? Or are the women just occasionally treated well because they are liked - in a pet-like way - by the main male characters?
tl;dr Rick & Morty is poison and it is no surprise to me it was made by an abuser.
posted by corb at 8:47 AM on January 25, 2023 [39 favorites]
It is, but it's not.
I have a lot of feelings about this, as someone who has multiple men who I care deeply about who are really invested in Rick & Morty. And they see it, and they see those bits, and those bits are real, but...those bits are so, so tiny. So, so superficial. Because Rick & Morty are so, so big and so, so problematic, and the big parts are never actually addressed. So the real lesson that it teaches is not 'can a guy who was terrible learn to be better' but rather, 'Can a guy who is terrible make the faintest of tiny moves towards being better, and get credit for getting better, while still continuing to do terrible things?'
Look at how sexuality and romance continue to be handled even in the later seasons. Is it ever good for the women? Does it ever respect their agency? Or are the women just occasionally treated well because they are liked - in a pet-like way - by the main male characters?
tl;dr Rick & Morty is poison and it is no surprise to me it was made by an abuser.
posted by corb at 8:47 AM on January 25, 2023 [39 favorites]
Feel free to take this with a grain of salt, but I have heard that Roiland has been basically kicked out of all Rick and Morty-based operations for years: he's done the voices and nothing else. Well before this story broke, I heard that Harmon refused to so much as sit in the same room as him; the show's staff threatened to walk because of his involvement.
It's hard because Roiland has been so essential to voicing the show, and because Adult Swim signed that ludicrous 70-episode contract. But the sense I get is that, yes, everybody knew that Roiland was a piece of shit; nobody knew how to push Roiland any further away, and for legal/NDA or professional reasons didn't feel comfortable disclosing anything to the public; and now that this story has blown up, they finally have the excuse they need to push him out.
I don't know a whole lot about modern-day Dan Harmon, and could easily see him either being a real piece of shit or a genuinely reformed man. But I don't think the situation is "conspiracy to protect Roiland" so much as it's been "conspiracy to keep Roiland away from everybody else as much as possible, without getting extremely sued over it."
posted by Tom Hanks Cannot Be Trusted at 8:50 AM on January 25, 2023 [17 favorites]
It's hard because Roiland has been so essential to voicing the show, and because Adult Swim signed that ludicrous 70-episode contract. But the sense I get is that, yes, everybody knew that Roiland was a piece of shit; nobody knew how to push Roiland any further away, and for legal/NDA or professional reasons didn't feel comfortable disclosing anything to the public; and now that this story has blown up, they finally have the excuse they need to push him out.
I don't know a whole lot about modern-day Dan Harmon, and could easily see him either being a real piece of shit or a genuinely reformed man. But I don't think the situation is "conspiracy to protect Roiland" so much as it's been "conspiracy to keep Roiland away from everybody else as much as possible, without getting extremely sued over it."
posted by Tom Hanks Cannot Be Trusted at 8:50 AM on January 25, 2023 [17 favorites]
And also covering it up and never talking about it publicly and pretending to the outside world like nothing is wrong. Which may all be necessary: among other things Roiland is charged, not convicted. Still even this most generous explanation is awfully shitty.
posted by Nelson at 8:54 AM on January 25, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by Nelson at 8:54 AM on January 25, 2023 [1 favorite]
I don't see how the characters of Rick & Morty can be effectively voiced by anyone besides JR, though.
Didn't Roiland basically audition his replacement for a marketing bit anyway? They should probably just give it to the guy at 3:30. He's so close, I don't think anyone would notice. Hell, adult swim could tell us that they had that guy do the voices for the past season and I'd believe it.
posted by nushustu at 8:54 AM on January 25, 2023 [3 favorites]
Didn't Roiland basically audition his replacement for a marketing bit anyway? They should probably just give it to the guy at 3:30. He's so close, I don't think anyone would notice. Hell, adult swim could tell us that they had that guy do the voices for the past season and I'd believe it.
posted by nushustu at 8:54 AM on January 25, 2023 [3 favorites]
I never saw Rick and Morty, but I've been interested in doing so. Probably won't now. Hope this guy goes to jail. FWIW, grain of salt, etc., but just today I read some other stuff about Roiland exchanging messages in an inappropriate way to people he probably should not have been exchanging messages with. Will not be surprised if another shoe drops soon.
posted by SoberHighland at 8:55 AM on January 25, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by SoberHighland at 8:55 AM on January 25, 2023 [3 favorites]
If they're smart, the show won't acknowledge it at all. At all. Just make the new episodes with a new voice actor. Any decent voice actor can do a Rick and Morty voice. That won't be an issue.
Roiland doesn't have the same cult of personality as Johnny Depp, and keeping the victim anonymous helps prevent the Good News A New Woman To Hate internet club from forming. But who knows how hard Roiland and Rick & Morty fans will push back. Roiland doesn't have the same legacy as Depp, and if Dan Harmon and the industry cuts ties (and Roiland's High on Life video game bombs, which it looks like it will) Roiland will most likely disappear into the ether even if he avoids a conviction.
posted by AlSweigart at 8:55 AM on January 25, 2023 [5 favorites]
Roiland doesn't have the same cult of personality as Johnny Depp, and keeping the victim anonymous helps prevent the Good News A New Woman To Hate internet club from forming. But who knows how hard Roiland and Rick & Morty fans will push back. Roiland doesn't have the same legacy as Depp, and if Dan Harmon and the industry cuts ties (and Roiland's High on Life video game bombs, which it looks like it will) Roiland will most likely disappear into the ether even if he avoids a conviction.
posted by AlSweigart at 8:55 AM on January 25, 2023 [5 favorites]
Also my understanding is that most of the really low-grade, incestuous toilet humor is Roiland's input, whereas anything resembling trying to elevate this cartoon comes from Harmon. So if Harmon is running the whole show now, it'll probably be better.
posted by nushustu at 8:56 AM on January 25, 2023 [9 favorites]
posted by nushustu at 8:56 AM on January 25, 2023 [9 favorites]
I've been watching the show since episode three and was a Community person before that. I've seen every episode, some many times. I am a huge Harmon fan despite knowing he's a complete asshole. I'm a feminist and definitely DO stop consuming art by artists I feel are irredeemable, but I feel like Harmon, while still a massive prick, has shown a capacity to learn and grow when called out for shitty behavior. And the cool thing is that he actually does become a better writer (and hopefully colleague?) over time because he takes criticism, sits with it, and makes changes. A lot of people judge his work by his fans and how they show up on the internet. Not entirely unfairly! But the work itself is often very good. And has historically been willing to engage in creative and interesting ways with the issues of both its creators and its fans.
I was deeply disappointed to learn this about Roiland. He's also clearly a guy with some Major Issues. I do absolutely think the show can continue without him, and I honestly think it might improve. It has leaned heavily on Roiland's improv which I think is pretty one-note TBH - funny the first time but never gets better or really surprises after that. It's crossed my mind in the most recent season that Roiland was holding the show back (TBH I assumed he was just drinking too much) and I'm excited to see what it can be without him.
I have no interest in speculating about what Harmon, adult swim, etc knew or didn't know about what Roiland was getting up to at home and when they knew or didn't know it. I have no idea what kind of relationships any of these people had with one another. Certainly if my colleague were abusing his partner I don't think I'd have any idea, but I work in a very different industry and as I understand it Harmon and Roiland were, at least at some point, friends.
But yeah. I don't know. I genuinely think R&M is one of the works of creative genius of our time and I hate how many people won't touch it with a ten foot pole because its brand is toxic. I hope they deal with this in such a way that maybe people give it another chance, and I honestly believe that's a possibility.
posted by potrzebie at 8:57 AM on January 25, 2023 [23 favorites]
I was deeply disappointed to learn this about Roiland. He's also clearly a guy with some Major Issues. I do absolutely think the show can continue without him, and I honestly think it might improve. It has leaned heavily on Roiland's improv which I think is pretty one-note TBH - funny the first time but never gets better or really surprises after that. It's crossed my mind in the most recent season that Roiland was holding the show back (TBH I assumed he was just drinking too much) and I'm excited to see what it can be without him.
I have no interest in speculating about what Harmon, adult swim, etc knew or didn't know about what Roiland was getting up to at home and when they knew or didn't know it. I have no idea what kind of relationships any of these people had with one another. Certainly if my colleague were abusing his partner I don't think I'd have any idea, but I work in a very different industry and as I understand it Harmon and Roiland were, at least at some point, friends.
But yeah. I don't know. I genuinely think R&M is one of the works of creative genius of our time and I hate how many people won't touch it with a ten foot pole because its brand is toxic. I hope they deal with this in such a way that maybe people give it another chance, and I honestly believe that's a possibility.
posted by potrzebie at 8:57 AM on January 25, 2023 [23 favorites]
Feel free to take this with a grain of salt, but I have heard that Roiland has been basically kicked out of all Rick and Morty-based operations for years: he's done the voices and nothing else
when you say 'you've heard', what does that mean?
posted by paimapi at 9:00 AM on January 25, 2023 [2 favorites]
when you say 'you've heard', what does that mean?
posted by paimapi at 9:00 AM on January 25, 2023 [2 favorites]
and if Dan Harmon and the industry cuts ties (and Roiland's High on Life video game bombs, which it looks like it will) Roiland will most likely disappear into the ether even if he avoids a conviction.
AlSweigart, as Nelson linked above, Roiland has been let go from Squanch Studio.
posted by ishmael at 9:03 AM on January 25, 2023 [1 favorite]
AlSweigart, as Nelson linked above, Roiland has been let go from Squanch Studio.
posted by ishmael at 9:03 AM on January 25, 2023 [1 favorite]
News like this always makes me think about all the stuff we don’t know. How the sausage is really made…
human matters are frail and complicated.
posted by beesbees at 9:11 AM on January 25, 2023 [2 favorites]
human matters are frail and complicated.
posted by beesbees at 9:11 AM on January 25, 2023 [2 favorites]
I am 100 percent a person who loves looking at whatever media I hate and finding the clues that reveal that everybody should have known that the creator was an in-real-life piece of shit all along, but at a certain point... Roiland made the choice to force underage girls and he made the choice to hurt his partner, both of which are worse crimes than whatever he put on in his cartoon show.
posted by kingdead at 9:21 AM on January 25, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by kingdead at 9:21 AM on January 25, 2023 [5 favorites]
What's really terrible is now I can't even watch House of Cosbys. Fuck Justin Roiland to the moon and beyond.
posted by grumpybear69 at 9:23 AM on January 25, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by grumpybear69 at 9:23 AM on January 25, 2023 [5 favorites]
Roiland's High on Life video game bombs, which it looks like it will
The first time I saw a trailer for this I thought, what the hell is this 1999-ass thing? Why is there a cartoon constantly shouting Limp Bizkit-era humor?
posted by uncleozzy at 9:32 AM on January 25, 2023 [2 favorites]
The first time I saw a trailer for this I thought, what the hell is this 1999-ass thing? Why is there a cartoon constantly shouting Limp Bizkit-era humor?
posted by uncleozzy at 9:32 AM on January 25, 2023 [2 favorites]
I've seen a lot of stuff that Dan Harmon has done without Justin Roiland and I've seen some stuff that Justin Roiland has done without Dan Harmon, and based on their separate output I'm firmly of the opinion that Rick & Morty is good, to the degree that it is good, much more because of Harmon's involvement than Roiland's.
posted by Parasite Unseen at 10:06 AM on January 25, 2023 [6 favorites]
posted by Parasite Unseen at 10:06 AM on January 25, 2023 [6 favorites]
I just reread Kurt Vonnegut's Cat's Cradle, and it reminded me that one of the big draws of absurd humor is desperate nihilism. Especially among the young who see the world as a place that might end in their lifetime due to human stupidity, I get it, I've been there. There are practitioners who manage to largely avoid that strain: Douglas Adams or Paul Rubens for instance. And I appreciate their work more than ever. But I have no time for edgelord "humor." If you really believe nothing has meaning, it will lead you to do awful things.
posted by rikschell at 10:14 AM on January 25, 2023 [11 favorites]
posted by rikschell at 10:14 AM on January 25, 2023 [11 favorites]
I came to Rick and Morty in the first season and though it was pretty amazing, it was clever and funny in a way that resonated with me at the time. It felt fresh and new, like Archer, but even more in it's own weird universe. The casual exploitation of entire worlds and peoples simply because Rick could got played for humor. And it was funny in his callousness, he was a drunk and didn't care and pickle rick etc etc.
But between the second and third seasons I realized that while I laughed, afterwards the nihilism and semi-endorsed worldview put me into a huge funk. In some ways it's the sign of great art or writing, that I found myself so affected. Very random connection, but I found a very similar feeling when I was a pretty avid reader of Dooce in 2008-2009 timeframe. Someone was going through some pretty depressive stuff and I was being affected strongly by the blog, and ended up chatting with a friend though who essentially said, dude, you don't have to keep reading if it's not making you feel good in the mid-long term. And it felt like a release to have that permission to stop reading.
With Rick and Morty I had to give myself permission to stop watching. It was so dark and nihilistic, and seemed to revel in it. I know there are people who say it's actually hopeful, about how Rick's lack of connection is what's destroying him, so it's not misanthropic after all. And I hope that's what a lot of people are getting from it. And maybe later seasons really lean in! For me the emotional resonance was pretty dark and I have to disengage.
A lot of personal information about me when it's about Justin Roiland and the harm he's done in the world. I hope those he hurt are able to heal and find closure, and really wish that he hadn't been allowed/enabled to be the abuser in the first place. It really is shitty that we as a culture have people who feel embolded with hurting others.
posted by Carillon at 10:39 AM on January 25, 2023 [5 favorites]
But between the second and third seasons I realized that while I laughed, afterwards the nihilism and semi-endorsed worldview put me into a huge funk. In some ways it's the sign of great art or writing, that I found myself so affected. Very random connection, but I found a very similar feeling when I was a pretty avid reader of Dooce in 2008-2009 timeframe. Someone was going through some pretty depressive stuff and I was being affected strongly by the blog, and ended up chatting with a friend though who essentially said, dude, you don't have to keep reading if it's not making you feel good in the mid-long term. And it felt like a release to have that permission to stop reading.
With Rick and Morty I had to give myself permission to stop watching. It was so dark and nihilistic, and seemed to revel in it. I know there are people who say it's actually hopeful, about how Rick's lack of connection is what's destroying him, so it's not misanthropic after all. And I hope that's what a lot of people are getting from it. And maybe later seasons really lean in! For me the emotional resonance was pretty dark and I have to disengage.
A lot of personal information about me when it's about Justin Roiland and the harm he's done in the world. I hope those he hurt are able to heal and find closure, and really wish that he hadn't been allowed/enabled to be the abuser in the first place. It really is shitty that we as a culture have people who feel embolded with hurting others.
posted by Carillon at 10:39 AM on January 25, 2023 [5 favorites]
the part of these processions that I found most upsetting was that Roiland apparently tried to groom underage teens for Alex "Gravity Falls" Hirsch—a guy who I'd personally prefer not turn out to be a sex pest too.
Oh WHAT?? I mean, I've never gotten into Rick and Morty so I only knew Roiland directly as doing the voice of Lemongrab, my least-favorite Adventure Time character, and that he did a small part on Gravity Falls and is seemingly involved in every dang thing. So knowing he is friends with Hirsch isn't a surprise, but....what is this??
Just last night I was watching an old video with Rebecca Sugar, Ian Jones-Quartey, Dana Terrace and Hirsch (the last two were a couple, but have subsequently broke up) fundraising for The Trevor Project. I have loved the projects all four of them have been involved in so much, it is disheartening to think Hirsch could be...like that.
This also brings to mind when Skyler Page, the creator of the cartoon Clarence, was fired for similar reasons - and the voice of the main character and showrunning was taken over by Spencer Rothbell. I thought it was actually much better, afterward.
posted by 41swans at 10:43 AM on January 25, 2023 [1 favorite]
Oh WHAT?? I mean, I've never gotten into Rick and Morty so I only knew Roiland directly as doing the voice of Lemongrab, my least-favorite Adventure Time character, and that he did a small part on Gravity Falls and is seemingly involved in every dang thing. So knowing he is friends with Hirsch isn't a surprise, but....what is this??
Just last night I was watching an old video with Rebecca Sugar, Ian Jones-Quartey, Dana Terrace and Hirsch (the last two were a couple, but have subsequently broke up) fundraising for The Trevor Project. I have loved the projects all four of them have been involved in so much, it is disheartening to think Hirsch could be...like that.
This also brings to mind when Skyler Page, the creator of the cartoon Clarence, was fired for similar reasons - and the voice of the main character and showrunning was taken over by Spencer Rothbell. I thought it was actually much better, afterward.
posted by 41swans at 10:43 AM on January 25, 2023 [1 favorite]
And from 2018, ‘Community’ Creator Dan Harmon Admits Sexually Harassing Ex-Employee. That story is mostly remembered because Harmon delivered an apology that seemed thorough and genuine
...
I feel like Harmon, while still a massive prick, has shown a capacity to learn and grow when called out for shitty behavior.
...
I have deep love and respect for Dan Harmon's work. I find Dan Harmon shows are unrivaled at creating grabby emotional beats. Both Community and Rick and Morty are towering shows because they are simultaneously ridiculous, hilarious, and real. They feel emotionally authentic to me. They resonate. They make me feel like something true is being revealed.
You'd figure an emotional alchemist like Harmon is going to be fucking awesome at apologizing, at delivering his own little Winger speeches that tie shit in a bow before the credits roll.
So whenever I read about Harmon's personal evolution, I'm always a little cynical about that.
re: Roilland, I remember seeing video of him guesting at some kind of nerd convention sometime during the early seasons of Rick & Morty. The dorky host asked him to do the voices, and Roilland just unleashed this torrent of insult comedy / personal abuse against the dorky host in perfect back-and-forth Rick and Morty voices. Real fucking nice, man. What kind of fucking wiring is that? You present him with affection, he figures that it's a safe time to shit in your mouth?
fuck that guy. he did some cheerleading in Elon Musk's textdump too.
posted by Sauce Trough at 11:00 AM on January 25, 2023 [16 favorites]
...
I feel like Harmon, while still a massive prick, has shown a capacity to learn and grow when called out for shitty behavior.
...
I have deep love and respect for Dan Harmon's work. I find Dan Harmon shows are unrivaled at creating grabby emotional beats. Both Community and Rick and Morty are towering shows because they are simultaneously ridiculous, hilarious, and real. They feel emotionally authentic to me. They resonate. They make me feel like something true is being revealed.
You'd figure an emotional alchemist like Harmon is going to be fucking awesome at apologizing, at delivering his own little Winger speeches that tie shit in a bow before the credits roll.
So whenever I read about Harmon's personal evolution, I'm always a little cynical about that.
re: Roilland, I remember seeing video of him guesting at some kind of nerd convention sometime during the early seasons of Rick & Morty. The dorky host asked him to do the voices, and Roilland just unleashed this torrent of insult comedy / personal abuse against the dorky host in perfect back-and-forth Rick and Morty voices. Real fucking nice, man. What kind of fucking wiring is that? You present him with affection, he figures that it's a safe time to shit in your mouth?
fuck that guy. he did some cheerleading in Elon Musk's textdump too.
posted by Sauce Trough at 11:00 AM on January 25, 2023 [16 favorites]
Renegade Cut - The Problem with Rick and Morty (This video came out three years go, just before Season 4 was released.)
More than that, he is framed as “cool” – Rick is easily the most popular character in the series.
In addition to being cool, he's also...cruel.
Rick is cruel and intelligent, and several times over the course of the series, these two qualities are conflated, as if cruelty is a sign of intelligence.
That is the problem with Rick and Morty: The idea that cruelty and intelligence go hand in hand. The idea that being cruel is a sign of intelligence and that being cruel is somehow “right” can be highly attractive to cruel people.
Sometimes people who are cruel see their attitude as a sign of their intelligence, and if they believe that is true, then they can believe they are “right” and that their cruelty is “right.” Everyone has encountered someone who has cloaked their cruel words and misdeeds as “Hey...I'm just being honest!”
Prescient.
posted by AlSweigart at 11:43 AM on January 25, 2023 [27 favorites]
More than that, he is framed as “cool” – Rick is easily the most popular character in the series.
In addition to being cool, he's also...cruel.
Rick is cruel and intelligent, and several times over the course of the series, these two qualities are conflated, as if cruelty is a sign of intelligence.
That is the problem with Rick and Morty: The idea that cruelty and intelligence go hand in hand. The idea that being cruel is a sign of intelligence and that being cruel is somehow “right” can be highly attractive to cruel people.
Sometimes people who are cruel see their attitude as a sign of their intelligence, and if they believe that is true, then they can believe they are “right” and that their cruelty is “right.” Everyone has encountered someone who has cloaked their cruel words and misdeeds as “Hey...I'm just being honest!”
Prescient.
posted by AlSweigart at 11:43 AM on January 25, 2023 [27 favorites]
Whether Alex Hirsch is involved I know nothing about, but let's try not to put unsubstantiated allegations out there.
posted by JHarris at 12:18 PM on January 25, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by JHarris at 12:18 PM on January 25, 2023 [5 favorites]
the part of these processions that I found most upsetting was that Roiland apparently tried to groom underage teens for Alex "Gravity Falls" Hirsch—a guy who I'd personally prefer not turn out to be a sex pest too.
(CW: Link goes to screenshotted messages from Roiland with abusive language)
FWIW, by all indications the "receipts" on the sub-allegations about Hirsch are coming from an angry John K. fan who has beef with Hirsch. If you look through the guy's posts, it's pretty much wall-to-wall disdain for people in the animation industry who aren't John K, and he's using the Roiland case to smear other animators who have worked with him over his career.
The content of the receipts are as follows: Roiland appears to make a reference about Hirsch in texts with an underage girl that HE (Roiland) was trying to have sex with, then tells her not mention it to anybody because he doesn't want people to think Hirsch is a "sleaze." My read on it is Roiland was using his industry connections with people like Hirsch (who I've never seen give off red flags like this) to entice young girls into hanging out with him, but didn't want that information getting back to said industry connections.
posted by Strange Interlude at 12:24 PM on January 25, 2023 [6 favorites]
(CW: Link goes to screenshotted messages from Roiland with abusive language)
FWIW, by all indications the "receipts" on the sub-allegations about Hirsch are coming from an angry John K. fan who has beef with Hirsch. If you look through the guy's posts, it's pretty much wall-to-wall disdain for people in the animation industry who aren't John K, and he's using the Roiland case to smear other animators who have worked with him over his career.
The content of the receipts are as follows: Roiland appears to make a reference about Hirsch in texts with an underage girl that HE (Roiland) was trying to have sex with, then tells her not mention it to anybody because he doesn't want people to think Hirsch is a "sleaze." My read on it is Roiland was using his industry connections with people like Hirsch (who I've never seen give off red flags like this) to entice young girls into hanging out with him, but didn't want that information getting back to said industry connections.
posted by Strange Interlude at 12:24 PM on January 25, 2023 [6 favorites]
Summer and Space Beth
The potential audience for this--or anyone who wants to move away from shows by Harmon/Roiland--may want to know about Human Kind Of, a pretty great web series starring Michelle Trachtenberg, created by Diana McCorry, and IIRC written mostly by women. It's sort of like Daria and sort of like Rick & Morty. It's on Facebook Watch but doesn't require login. The Daria-like aspects take a couple episodes to build, but the episodes are ~5 minutes long.
posted by Wobbuffet at 12:29 PM on January 25, 2023 [12 favorites]
The potential audience for this--or anyone who wants to move away from shows by Harmon/Roiland--may want to know about Human Kind Of, a pretty great web series starring Michelle Trachtenberg, created by Diana McCorry, and IIRC written mostly by women. It's sort of like Daria and sort of like Rick & Morty. It's on Facebook Watch but doesn't require login. The Daria-like aspects take a couple episodes to build, but the episodes are ~5 minutes long.
posted by Wobbuffet at 12:29 PM on January 25, 2023 [12 favorites]
I’ve only watched a bit of the show but my reaction has always been, “Ew, no.” And that’s why I’ve only watched a bit of it.
posted by sjswitzer at 12:48 PM on January 25, 2023
posted by sjswitzer at 12:48 PM on January 25, 2023
Huh, I really liked Solar Opposites as well. I thought it had a lot of the wonder without the relentless nihilism. Surprised that it seems to not involve Harmon, but seems to have his fingerprints all over it.
Harmon also made The Sarah Silverman Program before Community, which is another show I like, but as Silverman herself said "I'm the biggest Dan Harmon fan, and I still fired him!"
And, as mentioned above, House of Cosbys, which I heard about from a mathowie post on this very site about a C&D from Cosby for trying to besmirch his reputation.
Welp...
posted by lkc at 12:59 PM on January 25, 2023 [2 favorites]
Harmon also made The Sarah Silverman Program before Community, which is another show I like, but as Silverman herself said "I'm the biggest Dan Harmon fan, and I still fired him!"
And, as mentioned above, House of Cosbys, which I heard about from a mathowie post on this very site about a C&D from Cosby for trying to besmirch his reputation.
Welp...
posted by lkc at 12:59 PM on January 25, 2023 [2 favorites]
More than that, he is framed as “cool” – Rick is easily the most popular character in the series.
In addition to being cool, he's also...cruel.
Rick is cruel and intelligent, and several times over the course of the series, these two qualities are conflated, as if cruelty is a sign of intelligence.
That is the problem with Rick and Morty: The idea that cruelty and intelligence go hand in hand. The idea that being cruel is a sign of intelligence and that being cruel is somehow “right” can be highly attractive to cruel people.
Sometimes people who are cruel see their attitude as a sign of their intelligence, and if they believe that is true, then they can believe they are “right” and that their cruelty is “right.” Everyone has encountered someone who has cloaked their cruel words and misdeeds as “Hey...I'm just being honest!”
The show itself has addressed this on several occasions. Even the memorable monologue delivered by Susan Sarandon in Pickle Rick is sort of about this.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 1:31 PM on January 25, 2023 [7 favorites]
I'm sort of getting sidetracked, though, because I am highly sympathetic to takes like corb's that are aware of Harmon's public statements and actions the last few years, as well as the show's attempted course correction and just don't buy it. I'm just wary of arguments that either aren't aware of or do not account for these things.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 1:42 PM on January 25, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by DirtyOldTown at 1:42 PM on January 25, 2023 [5 favorites]
fuck that guy. he did some cheerleading in Elon Musk's textdump too.
More about that: Roiland shows up in Musk's texts as another eager puppy dog looking for approval, proposing some idea about verifying Twitter users aren't trolls.
Today Musk returned the favor, responding to disbelief that Roiland was fired with praise saying "He is also the heart of the show".
Of course Musk is a Rick & Morty fan. And now leaps to the defense of the white dude who apparently abuses women. Now I'm reminded Musk had a cameo on the show.
posted by Nelson at 1:53 PM on January 25, 2023 [10 favorites]
More about that: Roiland shows up in Musk's texts as another eager puppy dog looking for approval, proposing some idea about verifying Twitter users aren't trolls.
Today Musk returned the favor, responding to disbelief that Roiland was fired with praise saying "He is also the heart of the show".
Of course Musk is a Rick & Morty fan. And now leaps to the defense of the white dude who apparently abuses women. Now I'm reminded Musk had a cameo on the show.
posted by Nelson at 1:53 PM on January 25, 2023 [10 favorites]
Harmon is a bad guy. Joss Whedon is a bad guy. Roiland has now been outed. They all play the same game, and everyone knew about the first two guys for years.
posted by chaz at 2:34 PM on January 25, 2023
posted by chaz at 2:34 PM on January 25, 2023
Musk had a cameo, IIRC?
edit: saw the end of the last post.
Elon Tusk, i think.
posted by lkc at 3:15 PM on January 25, 2023
edit: saw the end of the last post.
Elon Tusk, i think.
posted by lkc at 3:15 PM on January 25, 2023
The show itself has addressed this on several occasions.
I've seen the whole series so far, but I didn't realize it until I saw Renegade Cut video that the show has the rhythm of an abuser.
Abuse, abuse, apologize. Abuse, abuse, apologize.
I agree with Dirty Old Town, in that the show does try to address Rick's cruelty and it's possible causes, but I feel like it does so as a corrective that's out of step with the tone of the rest of the show.
The over-arching thrust of the show does seem to be the themes of "cruelty is good" and "cruelty is intelligence". There is an enjoyment of cruelty that's palpable.
And judging from recent revelations, all of that tracks.
posted by ishmael at 6:07 PM on January 25, 2023 [8 favorites]
I've seen the whole series so far, but I didn't realize it until I saw Renegade Cut video that the show has the rhythm of an abuser.
Abuse, abuse, apologize. Abuse, abuse, apologize.
I agree with Dirty Old Town, in that the show does try to address Rick's cruelty and it's possible causes, but I feel like it does so as a corrective that's out of step with the tone of the rest of the show.
The over-arching thrust of the show does seem to be the themes of "cruelty is good" and "cruelty is intelligence". There is an enjoyment of cruelty that's palpable.
And judging from recent revelations, all of that tracks.
posted by ishmael at 6:07 PM on January 25, 2023 [8 favorites]
I don't see why it's difficult to imagine that Harmon and/or others didn't know about Roiland's domestic abuse charge. It's possible to work very closely with someone for years and not know a lot about their personal life; in one of the articles from a recent thread on The Sopranos, Edie Falco mentions that her and James Gandolfini weren't very close off set, and she had very little knowledge of what was going on in his personal life. And those two worked about as closely as two people can, for nearly a decade.
I used to work at a very small college, in a very small town. One summer, a long-time professor was arrested for possession of child pornography. The FBI literally came to his house to arrest him. When he got out on bail, he was put under house arrest while awaiting trial. This was in a town of maybe 15k, with some fellow faculty and staff living within a couple blocks of him. No one at the college -- hell, no one in the whole town -- knew for at least a month, and only then because a student journalist somehow got wind of the story and investigated.
I'm not saying Harmon et al didn't know, but it's certainly just as plausible as the possibility that they did know. Roiland could have just not said anything to anyone. Unless they are all spending all their time together, it's not very hard to keep secrets from other people, even about criminal prosecutions.
posted by Saxon Kane at 7:01 PM on January 25, 2023 [14 favorites]
I used to work at a very small college, in a very small town. One summer, a long-time professor was arrested for possession of child pornography. The FBI literally came to his house to arrest him. When he got out on bail, he was put under house arrest while awaiting trial. This was in a town of maybe 15k, with some fellow faculty and staff living within a couple blocks of him. No one at the college -- hell, no one in the whole town -- knew for at least a month, and only then because a student journalist somehow got wind of the story and investigated.
I'm not saying Harmon et al didn't know, but it's certainly just as plausible as the possibility that they did know. Roiland could have just not said anything to anyone. Unless they are all spending all their time together, it's not very hard to keep secrets from other people, even about criminal prosecutions.
posted by Saxon Kane at 7:01 PM on January 25, 2023 [14 favorites]
The show itself has addressed this on several occasions. Even the memorable monologue delivered by Susan Sarandon in Pickle Rick is sort of about this.
And yet they keep doing it.
posted by Dysk at 8:24 PM on January 25, 2023 [1 favorite]
And yet they keep doing it.
posted by Dysk at 8:24 PM on January 25, 2023 [1 favorite]
They kinda don't keep doing it, though? I feel like the show has very clearly shown Rick's chickens coming home to roost, over and over again. Yes he can think and invent his way out of bad situations. But it's his shitty personality that keeps getting him into those situations. He's not happy and he's not having a good time. We've literally seen him multiple times thinking about ending it all. Anyone who watches this show - the whole thing, not just a handful of early cherry picked episodes - and thinks "I want to be Rick Sanchez when I grow up" isn't paying attention. Dude was overpowered in early seasons to be sure, but I feel the show has complicated that a whole lot in the intervening time.
posted by potrzebie at 11:16 PM on January 25, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by potrzebie at 11:16 PM on January 25, 2023 [3 favorites]
So they keep doing the problematic thing, still, they just show some consequences sometimes. That is still doing the problematic thing - Rick is still superficially 'cool' and that is so largely performed through being cruel, being an asshole. "Oh but there's a deeper message" doesn't really matter when the practical effect is still to ride the edgelord humour thing, and a lot of fans will never see past that. It keeps doing the equivalent of showing Nazi soldiers as brave, capable and competent soldiers. It might kill them or subvert that later, the Nazis are still seeing and using it as encouraging propaganda, not the anti-war, anti-nazi sentiment the thing 'really' represents.
posted by Dysk at 2:43 AM on January 26, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by Dysk at 2:43 AM on January 26, 2023 [2 favorites]
Justin Roiland will no longer work on Hulu shows Solar Opposites or Koala Man, either
posted by DirtyOldTown at 4:11 AM on January 26, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by DirtyOldTown at 4:11 AM on January 26, 2023 [2 favorites]
So they keep doing the problematic thing, still, they just show some consequences sometimes. That is still doing the problematic thing - Rick is still superficially 'cool' and that is so largely performed through being cruel, being an asshole.
And he gets the added benefit of pathos. Very Stanley Kowalski- sure he raped Stella, but he's also very sad about it! The self-destructive martyrdom is a bit self-serving.
posted by ishmael at 8:49 AM on January 26, 2023
And he gets the added benefit of pathos. Very Stanley Kowalski- sure he raped Stella, but he's also very sad about it! The self-destructive martyrdom is a bit self-serving.
posted by ishmael at 8:49 AM on January 26, 2023
Or the person who is open about trying to change his life and the women and nonbinary people he brought on staff to help him learn to do better on sexism are sincere about the show's revised direction. In that case, the ambivalence/resistance that Rick has as a character to change and growth, the way he feints at doing better then is shitty anyway, doesn't reflect Harmon being secretly bad, it reflects Harmon and company's reaction to Roiland (who actually plays Rick, after all) staying terrible while the show tried to change around him.
Not sold on that, but it seems as reasonable a possibility as the "it's all fake" theory. Honestly, I keep tilting one way then the other. I'm about 60% "Harmon actually seems okay now" and 40% "the rot never stopped."
I sort of want to fast forward ten years and read the long form article explaining what the fuck is actually going on over there.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 8:58 AM on January 26, 2023 [9 favorites]
Not sold on that, but it seems as reasonable a possibility as the "it's all fake" theory. Honestly, I keep tilting one way then the other. I'm about 60% "Harmon actually seems okay now" and 40% "the rot never stopped."
I sort of want to fast forward ten years and read the long form article explaining what the fuck is actually going on over there.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 8:58 AM on January 26, 2023 [9 favorites]
Agree with DirtyOldTown. As a viewer, I always feel like Rick is not meant to be a particularly sympathetic character and we are expected to identify with Morty and the rest of the family first. I'm interested to see where it goes now. But I'm also hella suspicious about the whole thing too.
posted by joannemerriam at 9:16 AM on January 26, 2023 [11 favorites]
posted by joannemerriam at 9:16 AM on January 26, 2023 [11 favorites]
I was more in line with Dirty Old Town before the recent revelations, and kinda the inverse now (60% rot, 40% Harmon seems ok now).
At the very least I am looking at this show with a fist-sized grain of salt moving forward.
posted by ishmael at 9:43 AM on January 26, 2023 [1 favorite]
At the very least I am looking at this show with a fist-sized grain of salt moving forward.
posted by ishmael at 9:43 AM on January 26, 2023 [1 favorite]
so if people are deeply grappling with what they perceive as problematic about this show yet the commitment to discussing it and potentially watching future episodes (maybe squinting hard to see if the show's heart is in the right place or not).. doesn't this speak to how the show really sits on a line for some people: they feel compelled to watch, they see enough things they like or appreciate, yet there's this unease or recognition that maybe they should not be enjoying the show at all..
we've seen this before. Some will never get on board, some will renounce, some will defend, some will give it the benefit of the doubt a while longer: that pretty much sums up a lot of entertainment or art if you want to put it in those terms.
I found myself writing an email to my brother, sister-in-law, nieces, yesterday. They really thought I was an R&M fanboy for a brief period and I wanted to let them know I never really was that fanboy, I'm certainly not now, and I don't think I've ever written an email like that before.
posted by elkevelvet at 10:32 AM on January 26, 2023 [2 favorites]
we've seen this before. Some will never get on board, some will renounce, some will defend, some will give it the benefit of the doubt a while longer: that pretty much sums up a lot of entertainment or art if you want to put it in those terms.
I found myself writing an email to my brother, sister-in-law, nieces, yesterday. They really thought I was an R&M fanboy for a brief period and I wanted to let them know I never really was that fanboy, I'm certainly not now, and I don't think I've ever written an email like that before.
posted by elkevelvet at 10:32 AM on January 26, 2023 [2 favorites]
Here's a source backing up the goss Tom Hanks Cannot Be Trusted mentioned above: Justin Roiland Was Allegedly Unwelcome in the Rick & Morty Writers' Room Due to Sexual Misconduct
That would seem to fit the narrative that the staff was trying to keep the show afloat while handcuffed from calling Roiland out, let alone calling for his dismissal.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 1:36 PM on January 26, 2023 [1 favorite]
That would seem to fit the narrative that the staff was trying to keep the show afloat while handcuffed from calling Roiland out, let alone calling for his dismissal.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 1:36 PM on January 26, 2023 [1 favorite]
So, to anyone suggesting that they already had some sense of Roiland's wrongdoings from the show or that the writing somehow foretold this ... um, no, sorry, you didn't. That's a ridiculous claim, and if you actually believe that you can tell if someone is a sexual predator from watching a TV show they produced, then you should immediately get a job with the FBI because apparently all you need is access to a couple streaming services and you're ready to start fighting crime. Just how far does this skill extend? Could you also tell from watching Anthony Bourdain's show that he was suicidal? Could you tell that Phil Spector was a murderer from listening to Beatles albums he produced? Or that Johnny Depp was a serial abuser from watching his performances as Jack Sparrow? And why haven't the cops busted down Seth McFarlane's door, considering one of his more popular characters is (or was) portrayed as literally a rapist? (Family Guy also had Rush Limbaugh voice himself on one episode -- obviously he's a huge Limbaugh fanboy, right?)
Come on. It's ex post facto, self-congratulatory nonsense. You're connecting dots to fit a pre-existing narrative and pat yourself on the back for now having an objective reason to dump on something that you didn't like before (and, incidentally, throwing some very weird judgemental shade on people who did/do like the show). Despite Roiland's role as co-creator/showrunner, there are many, many other people writing and working on the show. Any single joke or story idea could have come from any of them, and unless you have a time machine to go back to when the idea was first pitched, you have no idea if it came from Roiland, Harmon, or someone else, and you have no idea who was involved in the development of that idea. Harmon himself has talked in previous interviews about how the show's more toxic fanbase would declare some episodes inferior to others because they thought they could somehow "tell" that it had more input from women writers -- and they were always wrong. I imagine that there were probably people who within the space of 24 hours went from talking about Buffy as a masterwork of modern feminism to talking about it as obviously the most anti-woman show on TV when the allegations about Whedon went public.
I mean, like the show, don't like the show, think it's toxic, think it's not toxic, that's all fine (another thing Harmon has joked about is how the same episode of R&M can be criticized by some as too woke, others as too reactionary), but don't claim that your taste in TV shows is some sort of moral victory.
Also, a real missed opportunity in not naming this thread "Morty-fying Rickhavior"
posted by Saxon Kane at 2:34 PM on January 26, 2023 [18 favorites]
Come on. It's ex post facto, self-congratulatory nonsense. You're connecting dots to fit a pre-existing narrative and pat yourself on the back for now having an objective reason to dump on something that you didn't like before (and, incidentally, throwing some very weird judgemental shade on people who did/do like the show). Despite Roiland's role as co-creator/showrunner, there are many, many other people writing and working on the show. Any single joke or story idea could have come from any of them, and unless you have a time machine to go back to when the idea was first pitched, you have no idea if it came from Roiland, Harmon, or someone else, and you have no idea who was involved in the development of that idea. Harmon himself has talked in previous interviews about how the show's more toxic fanbase would declare some episodes inferior to others because they thought they could somehow "tell" that it had more input from women writers -- and they were always wrong. I imagine that there were probably people who within the space of 24 hours went from talking about Buffy as a masterwork of modern feminism to talking about it as obviously the most anti-woman show on TV when the allegations about Whedon went public.
I mean, like the show, don't like the show, think it's toxic, think it's not toxic, that's all fine (another thing Harmon has joked about is how the same episode of R&M can be criticized by some as too woke, others as too reactionary), but don't claim that your taste in TV shows is some sort of moral victory.
Also, a real missed opportunity in not naming this thread "Morty-fying Rickhavior"
posted by Saxon Kane at 2:34 PM on January 26, 2023 [18 favorites]
So, to anyone suggesting that they already had some sense of Roiland's wrongdoings from the show or that the writing somehow foretold this ... um, no, sorry, you didn't.
Nobody's saying this. The exact opposite is what people are pointing out in this thread.
The cruelty that is a central part of the show is getting extra scrutiny because of the revelations about Roiland.
Any "ex post facto, self-congratulatory nonsense" being claimed is a total straw man argument.
posted by ishmael at 3:16 PM on January 26, 2023 [8 favorites]
Nobody's saying this. The exact opposite is what people are pointing out in this thread.
The cruelty that is a central part of the show is getting extra scrutiny because of the revelations about Roiland.
Any "ex post facto, self-congratulatory nonsense" being claimed is a total straw man argument.
posted by ishmael at 3:16 PM on January 26, 2023 [8 favorites]
(and, incidentally, throwing some very weird judgemental shade on people who did/do like the show)
And noone is doing any of that. Any critiques above are entirely focused on the content of the show itself.
posted by ishmael at 3:19 PM on January 26, 2023 [2 favorites]
And noone is doing any of that. Any critiques above are entirely focused on the content of the show itself.
posted by ishmael at 3:19 PM on January 26, 2023 [2 favorites]
I mean, like the show, don't like the show, think it's toxic, think it's not toxic, that's all fine (another thing Harmon has joked about is how the same episode of R&M can be criticized by some as too woke, others as too reactionary), but don't claim that your taste in TV shows is some sort of moral victory.
Extremely uncharitable read on what people are saying in this thread. I mean are we not allowed to acknowledge cruelty when we see it?
posted by ishmael at 3:33 PM on January 26, 2023 [5 favorites]
Extremely uncharitable read on what people are saying in this thread. I mean are we not allowed to acknowledge cruelty when we see it?
posted by ishmael at 3:33 PM on January 26, 2023 [5 favorites]
I liked that comment purely for "Morty-fying Rickhavior." I mean... c'mon. That's good.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 3:58 PM on January 26, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by DirtyOldTown at 3:58 PM on January 26, 2023 [4 favorites]
Yes, this felony domestic abuse is hilarious.
posted by Nelson at 4:08 PM on January 26, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by Nelson at 4:08 PM on January 26, 2023 [1 favorite]
That's definitely what people were saying. Good for you for picking up on the naked evil in our midst.
Experience definitely tells us that a MeFi would mean that as "beating your loved ones is funny" as opposed to "wow, those repetitive names-based titles."
posted by DirtyOldTown at 4:37 PM on January 26, 2023 [2 favorites]
Experience definitely tells us that a MeFi would mean that as "beating your loved ones is funny" as opposed to "wow, those repetitive names-based titles."
posted by DirtyOldTown at 4:37 PM on January 26, 2023 [2 favorites]
"[Thing you obviously weren't saying] is bad, actually" is my least favorite variety of MeFi comment.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 4:45 PM on January 26, 2023 [12 favorites]
posted by DirtyOldTown at 4:45 PM on January 26, 2023 [12 favorites]
Metafilter: It's ex post facto, self-congratulatory nonsense.
posted by grumpybear69 at 6:28 AM on January 27, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by grumpybear69 at 6:28 AM on January 27, 2023 [1 favorite]
And why haven't the cops busted down Seth McFarlane's door, considering one of his more popular characters is (or was) portrayed as literally a rapist?
I mean, maybe they will.
posted by grumpybear69 at 6:38 AM on January 27, 2023 [1 favorite]
I mean, maybe they will.
posted by grumpybear69 at 6:38 AM on January 27, 2023 [1 favorite]
I feel called out by Saxon Kane, it must be my day to feel thin-skinned. But echoing ishmael: what exactly are you on about?
Who is intimating they "could see it coming" or suggesting their views on an animated show somehow signal their virtue?
Personally, in an act of pure hindsight I felt compelled to make sure my nieces know I am not a huge fan of Rick and Morty. They are both "very online" and even the thought that they associate their uncle closely with the show does not sit well with me. It's not about the show being uniquely awful, it's about what I think is important. Their perception of me is important, and not only do I want that perception to be accurate I want to live up to their better ideas of me.
posted by elkevelvet at 7:27 AM on January 27, 2023 [4 favorites]
Who is intimating they "could see it coming" or suggesting their views on an animated show somehow signal their virtue?
Personally, in an act of pure hindsight I felt compelled to make sure my nieces know I am not a huge fan of Rick and Morty. They are both "very online" and even the thought that they associate their uncle closely with the show does not sit well with me. It's not about the show being uniquely awful, it's about what I think is important. Their perception of me is important, and not only do I want that perception to be accurate I want to live up to their better ideas of me.
posted by elkevelvet at 7:27 AM on January 27, 2023 [4 favorites]
And, not to belabor the point, but saying "hey, this guy who has rapist characters hasn't been busted by the police, so GOTCHA" is no gotcha at all. Nobody would have thought Cliff Huxtable was a rapist back in the day from watching the Cosby Show, and yet. But it is totally reasonable to reevaluate the media we consume and say "hmm, why is this extremely awful and problematic stuff played for yuks?" There is no obligation to laugh at a rapist character, and it is absolutely within anyone's right to feel weird or icky about people who do laugh at it. While it's true we can't definitively identify Bad People from the media they produce, we can definitely take certain things at face value. I mean, look at Woody Allen's entire oeuvre.
posted by grumpybear69 at 8:00 AM on January 27, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by grumpybear69 at 8:00 AM on January 27, 2023 [2 favorites]
So, let me first dial back on the grumptastic tone of my previous post (it was a bad day), acknowledge the critiques that have been made, and clarify/correct myself a bit.
Nobody's saying this. [that they could see this revelation about Roiland coming]
Yes, that is true. No one here has stated that they definitively knew beforehand that Roiland (or anyone else on the show) was a creeper/abuser because of the content of the show. That's absolutely correct, and my comments on that were sloppy.
The exact opposite is what people are pointing out in this thread. The cruelty that is a central part of the show is getting extra scrutiny because of the revelations about Roiland.
However, I would argue that this "extra scrutiny" is not "the exact opposite" but in fact doing something very similar in the reverse direction. It is looking back at the show (which, as I would reiterate, is a collaborative product that makes pinpointing individual contributions very difficult) to connect the dots from the text to the news about Roiland and construct some sort of narrative that links the two.
Nobody would have thought Cliff Huxtable was a rapist back in the day from watching the Cosby Show, and yet.
Which is why I almost used Cosby as an example, because it kind of proves my point about the problem with tying these things together after the fact. And yes, there are some bits of Cosby's show and past comedy routines that look waaay fucked up in retrospect (his infamous bit about "Spanish Fly" for example), but it still amounts to cherry-picking if one were to argue that we should have known about him from that (which, again, no one is explicitly doing, but there is still the implication that there's some sort of necessary connection between the two). [There's a possible tangent here about the difference between an "auteur" like Woody Allen who wrote and directed the majority of his work vs. someone like Roiland who is/was one (leading) figure among a team of creators, as well as some fine-grained nitpicking about how much of Woody Allen's work suggests a propensity to child-abuse (probably some but probably not all or even the majority) vs. how much of it just suggests that he's a neurotic guy with all-too common issues about women (probably most of it), but I don't think it is that important.]
it is totally reasonable to reevaluate the media we consume and say "hmm, why is this extremely awful and problematic stuff played for yuks?"
Of course it is. But I would suggest that "because X creator was a serial abuser" is probably a simplistic answer that relies on confirmation bias and ignores a whole lot of historical and cultural context in order to craft a tidy, narrow narrative.
There is no obligation to laugh at a rapist character,
No, there isn't. Agreed. Not sure if you think I said there was, but I didn't.
it is absolutely within anyone's right to feel weird or icky about people who do laugh at it.
Yes, it is. Agreed.
Any critiques above are entirely focused on the content of the show itself..... are we not allowed to acknowledge cruelty when we see it?
Sure you are, of course. But, in the context of a story about Justin Roiland being credibly accused of domestic abuse and other gross stuff (which is what the post is about), talking about the "cruelty" of one of the shows he works (worked) on is loaded to say the least. It implies some sort of causal connection between the content of the show and his behavior.
Perhaps my basic point is the rather simplistic in itself idea that ex post facto biographical interpretations/explanations (and these are ex post facto arguments being made here) of a work of "art" are problematic to say the least and based on circular logic. Or even more simply: there aren't any necessary laws or rules we can follow to determine the relation of a work of art to its creators, and any such connections are always going to be historically contingent and unique to the situation. (Are there trends? Possible red flags? Warning signs? Sure, maybe, I'll believe that. But again, we're looking at this specific situation after the fact, and I don't think there's any sort of law we could distill to use in the future to find out which artists are creepers and which aren't, so even these would need to be handled and interpreted very carefully, and within the specific context of that work of art and that creator.)
Now, with regard to people using their taste in TV shows as a form of virtue signalling: even though no one said "I saw this coming" or "we should have known this," there have been quite a few "Ya know, I always had a funny feeling about this show..." type comments, and I would suggest they were definitely made as a form of self-defense and/or self-congratulation. A few quotes from the thread:
I've enjoyed Rick & Morty but it always had this streak of creepy meanness to it that made me increasingly uncomfortable. Gosh, I wonder where it comes from? Snarky comment that connects their prior dislike of the show to Roiland's now revealed actions.
The season of Rick and Morty that I saw felt like it went to similar territories at times: presenting the barest fig leaf of "no, this is commentary about sexual assault" when it was clearly just getting its rocks off depicting terrible things happening for no reason. Again, suggesting the show's stories are reflective of Roiland's own sexual improprieties.
tl;dr Rick & Morty is poison and it is no surprise to me it was made by an abuser. Do I need to comment on this one?
The huge problem with "satire" like R&M is that the people it claims to directly mock take it as an endorsement. Which is why the whole genre of edgelord comedy really needs to go away. If you can't punch up, just fucking sit down.
&
I have no time for edgelord "humor." If you really believe nothing has meaning, it will lead you to do awful things. Style of humor = you do awful things (I'd also argue with the characterization of R&M as "edgelord" and "punching down," but that's for another discussion).
I’ve only watched a bit of the show but my reaction has always been, “Ew, no.” And that’s why I’ve only watched a bit of it. -- this one is particularly notable because it is the only comment the poster has made in this thread, and it is just about how they didn't like the show -- nothing to do with Roiland or the revelations about him at all. Much like the comments about emailing family & friends to disown R&M, this seems like a weird display of anxiety and a desire to make sure people know that "NO I DO NOT LIKE THAT THING YOU THOUGHT I LIKED, JUST WANT EVERYONE TO KNOW I THINK ROILAND IS BAD AND R&M IS BAD AND I ALWAYS HAVE" (for young family members I would probably say something, but to other adults this seems like verging on "the lady doth protest too much" levels of overly defensive)*
Renegade Cut - The Problem with Rick and Morty (This video came out three years go, just before Season 4 was released.) [....] Prescient. Again, claiming the critiques about the show were "prescient" -- what did they predict? Roiland's behavior, apparently.
I've seen the whole series so far, but I didn't realize it until I saw Renegade Cut video that the show has the rhythm of an abuser. Abuse, abuse, apologize. Abuse, abuse, apologize. [...]The over-arching thrust of the show does seem to be the themes of "cruelty is good" and "cruelty is intelligence". There is an enjoyment of cruelty that's palpable. And judging from recent revelations, all of that tracks. Again, suggesting that the show reflects the abusive nature of one of the creators. (and I'd also quibble with this interpretation of the show as being pro-cruelty and having the "rhythm of an abuser," but again, for another time).
And he gets the added benefit of pathos. Very Stanley Kowalski- sure he raped Stella, but he's also very sad about it! The self-destructive martyrdom is a bit self-serving. Explicitly comparing Rick to a rapist -- not Justin Roiland, but Rick -- as if the goal is to make people sympathetic to Roiland despite his behavior.
and for a something a little different:
I am 100 percent a person who loves looking at whatever media I hate and finding the clues that reveal that everybody should have known that the creator was an in-real-life piece of shit all along So at least one person in the thread does (seem to) think it is possible to predict terrible behavior from looking at their artistic output, but said person then goes on to say... but at a certain point... Roiland made the choice to force underage girls and he made the choice to hurt his partner, both of which are worse crimes than whatever he put on in his cartoon show. Or in other words, that one couldn't tell from the show what Roiland was up to in real life.
I hope that clarifies and corrects my earlier comments. Happy to read other critiques of what I've said and acknowledge/respond to anything that seems problematic or incorrect or whatever about my rough thoughts.
*as is, perhaps, the statement that "I only liked your comment for the joke at the end"
posted by Saxon Kane at 1:03 PM on January 27, 2023 [1 favorite]
Nobody's saying this. [that they could see this revelation about Roiland coming]
Yes, that is true. No one here has stated that they definitively knew beforehand that Roiland (or anyone else on the show) was a creeper/abuser because of the content of the show. That's absolutely correct, and my comments on that were sloppy.
The exact opposite is what people are pointing out in this thread. The cruelty that is a central part of the show is getting extra scrutiny because of the revelations about Roiland.
However, I would argue that this "extra scrutiny" is not "the exact opposite" but in fact doing something very similar in the reverse direction. It is looking back at the show (which, as I would reiterate, is a collaborative product that makes pinpointing individual contributions very difficult) to connect the dots from the text to the news about Roiland and construct some sort of narrative that links the two.
Nobody would have thought Cliff Huxtable was a rapist back in the day from watching the Cosby Show, and yet.
Which is why I almost used Cosby as an example, because it kind of proves my point about the problem with tying these things together after the fact. And yes, there are some bits of Cosby's show and past comedy routines that look waaay fucked up in retrospect (his infamous bit about "Spanish Fly" for example), but it still amounts to cherry-picking if one were to argue that we should have known about him from that (which, again, no one is explicitly doing, but there is still the implication that there's some sort of necessary connection between the two). [There's a possible tangent here about the difference between an "auteur" like Woody Allen who wrote and directed the majority of his work vs. someone like Roiland who is/was one (leading) figure among a team of creators, as well as some fine-grained nitpicking about how much of Woody Allen's work suggests a propensity to child-abuse (probably some but probably not all or even the majority) vs. how much of it just suggests that he's a neurotic guy with all-too common issues about women (probably most of it), but I don't think it is that important.]
it is totally reasonable to reevaluate the media we consume and say "hmm, why is this extremely awful and problematic stuff played for yuks?"
Of course it is. But I would suggest that "because X creator was a serial abuser" is probably a simplistic answer that relies on confirmation bias and ignores a whole lot of historical and cultural context in order to craft a tidy, narrow narrative.
There is no obligation to laugh at a rapist character,
No, there isn't. Agreed. Not sure if you think I said there was, but I didn't.
it is absolutely within anyone's right to feel weird or icky about people who do laugh at it.
Yes, it is. Agreed.
Any critiques above are entirely focused on the content of the show itself..... are we not allowed to acknowledge cruelty when we see it?
Sure you are, of course. But, in the context of a story about Justin Roiland being credibly accused of domestic abuse and other gross stuff (which is what the post is about), talking about the "cruelty" of one of the shows he works (worked) on is loaded to say the least. It implies some sort of causal connection between the content of the show and his behavior.
Perhaps my basic point is the rather simplistic in itself idea that ex post facto biographical interpretations/explanations (and these are ex post facto arguments being made here) of a work of "art" are problematic to say the least and based on circular logic. Or even more simply: there aren't any necessary laws or rules we can follow to determine the relation of a work of art to its creators, and any such connections are always going to be historically contingent and unique to the situation. (Are there trends? Possible red flags? Warning signs? Sure, maybe, I'll believe that. But again, we're looking at this specific situation after the fact, and I don't think there's any sort of law we could distill to use in the future to find out which artists are creepers and which aren't, so even these would need to be handled and interpreted very carefully, and within the specific context of that work of art and that creator.)
Now, with regard to people using their taste in TV shows as a form of virtue signalling: even though no one said "I saw this coming" or "we should have known this," there have been quite a few "Ya know, I always had a funny feeling about this show..." type comments, and I would suggest they were definitely made as a form of self-defense and/or self-congratulation. A few quotes from the thread:
I've enjoyed Rick & Morty but it always had this streak of creepy meanness to it that made me increasingly uncomfortable. Gosh, I wonder where it comes from? Snarky comment that connects their prior dislike of the show to Roiland's now revealed actions.
The season of Rick and Morty that I saw felt like it went to similar territories at times: presenting the barest fig leaf of "no, this is commentary about sexual assault" when it was clearly just getting its rocks off depicting terrible things happening for no reason. Again, suggesting the show's stories are reflective of Roiland's own sexual improprieties.
tl;dr Rick & Morty is poison and it is no surprise to me it was made by an abuser. Do I need to comment on this one?
The huge problem with "satire" like R&M is that the people it claims to directly mock take it as an endorsement. Which is why the whole genre of edgelord comedy really needs to go away. If you can't punch up, just fucking sit down.
&
I have no time for edgelord "humor." If you really believe nothing has meaning, it will lead you to do awful things. Style of humor = you do awful things (I'd also argue with the characterization of R&M as "edgelord" and "punching down," but that's for another discussion).
I’ve only watched a bit of the show but my reaction has always been, “Ew, no.” And that’s why I’ve only watched a bit of it. -- this one is particularly notable because it is the only comment the poster has made in this thread, and it is just about how they didn't like the show -- nothing to do with Roiland or the revelations about him at all. Much like the comments about emailing family & friends to disown R&M, this seems like a weird display of anxiety and a desire to make sure people know that "NO I DO NOT LIKE THAT THING YOU THOUGHT I LIKED, JUST WANT EVERYONE TO KNOW I THINK ROILAND IS BAD AND R&M IS BAD AND I ALWAYS HAVE" (for young family members I would probably say something, but to other adults this seems like verging on "the lady doth protest too much" levels of overly defensive)*
Renegade Cut - The Problem with Rick and Morty (This video came out three years go, just before Season 4 was released.) [....] Prescient. Again, claiming the critiques about the show were "prescient" -- what did they predict? Roiland's behavior, apparently.
I've seen the whole series so far, but I didn't realize it until I saw Renegade Cut video that the show has the rhythm of an abuser. Abuse, abuse, apologize. Abuse, abuse, apologize. [...]The over-arching thrust of the show does seem to be the themes of "cruelty is good" and "cruelty is intelligence". There is an enjoyment of cruelty that's palpable. And judging from recent revelations, all of that tracks. Again, suggesting that the show reflects the abusive nature of one of the creators. (and I'd also quibble with this interpretation of the show as being pro-cruelty and having the "rhythm of an abuser," but again, for another time).
And he gets the added benefit of pathos. Very Stanley Kowalski- sure he raped Stella, but he's also very sad about it! The self-destructive martyrdom is a bit self-serving. Explicitly comparing Rick to a rapist -- not Justin Roiland, but Rick -- as if the goal is to make people sympathetic to Roiland despite his behavior.
and for a something a little different:
I am 100 percent a person who loves looking at whatever media I hate and finding the clues that reveal that everybody should have known that the creator was an in-real-life piece of shit all along So at least one person in the thread does (seem to) think it is possible to predict terrible behavior from looking at their artistic output, but said person then goes on to say... but at a certain point... Roiland made the choice to force underage girls and he made the choice to hurt his partner, both of which are worse crimes than whatever he put on in his cartoon show. Or in other words, that one couldn't tell from the show what Roiland was up to in real life.
I hope that clarifies and corrects my earlier comments. Happy to read other critiques of what I've said and acknowledge/respond to anything that seems problematic or incorrect or whatever about my rough thoughts.
*as is, perhaps, the statement that "I only liked your comment for the joke at the end"
posted by Saxon Kane at 1:03 PM on January 27, 2023 [1 favorite]
So, on reflection, whatever point I'm making in the last 2 comments is probably fairly insignificant, certainly in the context of the reality of Roiland's actions, known, suspected, or unknown. There's no need to dig into an abstract, circular, contradictory debate on authorial intention (my own pointless hobby-horse), or deploy snark (a cheap tactic), in a thread about an asshole from a controversial popular cartoon, and I regret doing both. I'll apologetically bow out and direct my energies somewhere more positive and do a little self-reflection. Peace out.
posted by Saxon Kane at 6:38 PM on January 27, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by Saxon Kane at 6:38 PM on January 27, 2023 [3 favorites]
Maybe Rick is shown ss as and lonely because it's his behaviour, and while it is certainly better to show that being an asshole has a price than not, it doesn't excuse the problematic dynamic of "cool" being expressed through cruelty, even if you later show consequences. The show still constantly does the problematic thing, and lots of people will ignore the asterisk caveat even if it's plot central.
posted by Dysk at 7:45 PM on January 27, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by Dysk at 7:45 PM on January 27, 2023 [3 favorites]
I just wanted to pop in and say that, while it is absolutely possible to make dark things and be a decent person—and while many awful people don't make art that "gives them away," so to speak—it is also possible to find certain things outright disturbing, and then find that those disturbing things perfectly mirror their creator.
On the one hand, that "Doc and Mharti" short that I mentioned? Legitimately skeeved me out. And it skeeved me out because "what if Doc in Back to the Future was a verbally-abusive pedophile?" did not strike me as an especially funny premise to make a comedy short about, especially when that one joke got repeated ad nauseam.
Now, it wasn't a confession video. Roiland is not accused of being a pedophile (for all his interest in teenage girls is deeply skeevy). But it struck me as a callous video—not because the humor itself was callous, but because it felt like the mindset that would've led to making that particular thing had to be, at the very least, a pretty callous one. And when I read Roiland's text messages, the breeziness with which he violated women's boundaries or tossed out brush-off apologies absolutely felt like the same callousness that I was disturbed by in "Doc and Mharti."
On the other hand, the It's Always Sunny in Philadelphia crew has been podcasting lately, and come off as really decent, sensitive, and self-aware guys. IASIP can be impressively dark, and in early seasons it was callous a little too often—and in their podcast, the team openly acknowledges that, and talks about how they would have rewritten certain jokes of theirs today. But the show's still plenty dark and awful: it just cares about finding a careful path to those dark, awful places.
And somewhere in between, you get Dan Harmon himself. A lot of people pointed out that Community is occasionally a deeply cruel show—but it's also exquisitely aware of its own cruelty. On the other hand, it has a bad habit of brushing off the harm that its characters inflict on one another, or of excusing that harm a little too glibly. And some of that seems to map directly onto Harmon's own behaviors, which isn't surprising, because he's talked about using the show more-or-less as a way of probing his own psyche.
One reason I found myself wanting to believe Harmon's IRL apology, apart from Megan Ganz saying that it meant something to her, is that it didn't feel performative: it felt like a genuine self-inquiry that didn't shy away from what it found and was fully aware of the implications. I'd love to believe that that meant he genuinely grew. And Rick and Morty's cruelty feels like Community's cruelty—and weirdly, the stuff on the show I felt uncomfortable with never had to do with characters being cruel to one another. (If anything, my issue with it is that it felt like it found it funny to deny characters of their dignity while terrible things happened to them, which is a way subtler thing to dislike. Contrast to The Venture Bros, another show full of cruel humor and nihilist characters that affords astonishing warmth to almost its full cast.)
Incidentally, Megan Ganz is on the It's Always Sunny podcast and has talked about Dan Harmon's shitty treatment of her as a writer on it. And it's genuinely heartwarming to hear her with the IASIP showrunners, because you can just hear the love they all have for one another. 🥹
I guess my point is that, while it's asinine to think that somebody's art perfectly mirrors their soul or that their idea of entertainment is also their idea of how to be a good person, you can look at art as a kind of rhetoric, and ask questions about the person or people who "speak" it into existence. Especially when something is unsettling, not for its content or tone, but for its seeming attitude towards its own material.
posted by Tom Hanks Cannot Be Trusted at 2:49 AM on January 30, 2023 [6 favorites]
On the one hand, that "Doc and Mharti" short that I mentioned? Legitimately skeeved me out. And it skeeved me out because "what if Doc in Back to the Future was a verbally-abusive pedophile?" did not strike me as an especially funny premise to make a comedy short about, especially when that one joke got repeated ad nauseam.
Now, it wasn't a confession video. Roiland is not accused of being a pedophile (for all his interest in teenage girls is deeply skeevy). But it struck me as a callous video—not because the humor itself was callous, but because it felt like the mindset that would've led to making that particular thing had to be, at the very least, a pretty callous one. And when I read Roiland's text messages, the breeziness with which he violated women's boundaries or tossed out brush-off apologies absolutely felt like the same callousness that I was disturbed by in "Doc and Mharti."
On the other hand, the It's Always Sunny in Philadelphia crew has been podcasting lately, and come off as really decent, sensitive, and self-aware guys. IASIP can be impressively dark, and in early seasons it was callous a little too often—and in their podcast, the team openly acknowledges that, and talks about how they would have rewritten certain jokes of theirs today. But the show's still plenty dark and awful: it just cares about finding a careful path to those dark, awful places.
And somewhere in between, you get Dan Harmon himself. A lot of people pointed out that Community is occasionally a deeply cruel show—but it's also exquisitely aware of its own cruelty. On the other hand, it has a bad habit of brushing off the harm that its characters inflict on one another, or of excusing that harm a little too glibly. And some of that seems to map directly onto Harmon's own behaviors, which isn't surprising, because he's talked about using the show more-or-less as a way of probing his own psyche.
One reason I found myself wanting to believe Harmon's IRL apology, apart from Megan Ganz saying that it meant something to her, is that it didn't feel performative: it felt like a genuine self-inquiry that didn't shy away from what it found and was fully aware of the implications. I'd love to believe that that meant he genuinely grew. And Rick and Morty's cruelty feels like Community's cruelty—and weirdly, the stuff on the show I felt uncomfortable with never had to do with characters being cruel to one another. (If anything, my issue with it is that it felt like it found it funny to deny characters of their dignity while terrible things happened to them, which is a way subtler thing to dislike. Contrast to The Venture Bros, another show full of cruel humor and nihilist characters that affords astonishing warmth to almost its full cast.)
Incidentally, Megan Ganz is on the It's Always Sunny podcast and has talked about Dan Harmon's shitty treatment of her as a writer on it. And it's genuinely heartwarming to hear her with the IASIP showrunners, because you can just hear the love they all have for one another. 🥹
I guess my point is that, while it's asinine to think that somebody's art perfectly mirrors their soul or that their idea of entertainment is also their idea of how to be a good person, you can look at art as a kind of rhetoric, and ask questions about the person or people who "speak" it into existence. Especially when something is unsettling, not for its content or tone, but for its seeming attitude towards its own material.
posted by Tom Hanks Cannot Be Trusted at 2:49 AM on January 30, 2023 [6 favorites]
Heather Anne Campbell (Season 6 Episode 5 "Final DeSmithation" writer) appears to have explained the reason why things have gone quiet. She tweeted "I can't tweet about Rick and Morty for now. When I can tweet about it, I will." Sounds like some kind of NDA is in play for the writer's room/production team.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 3:07 PM on January 31, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by DirtyOldTown at 3:07 PM on January 31, 2023 [1 favorite]
Am I missing something, or is that tweet a cryptic nothing rather than an explanation? It tells us nothing about what is going on (except that yes, it hints at something like an NDA which itself tells us nothing except that the people involved can tell us nothing).
posted by Dysk at 9:29 PM on January 31, 2023
posted by Dysk at 9:29 PM on January 31, 2023
It's an explanation for why they've gone quiet, not an explanation for what happened.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 7:12 AM on February 1, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by DirtyOldTown at 7:12 AM on February 1, 2023 [1 favorite]
The defensive back and forth about this show reminds me of one of my favorite lessons from internet culture: "your favorite X sucks."
Everyone has different tastes and different senses of humor and no matter what TV show or movie or music I am currently enjoying, I need to just accept that someone out there thinks it totally sucks and is the worst. Other people's criticism of my treasured art is both fair and baseless and ultimately doesn't affect me at all. We are all hypocrites when it comes to art and entertainment and if you're okay with that then it makes it a lot easier to enjoy the things you enjoy.
It is fun to think about what makes a show "just too much" for us. I have numerous friends who hated Breaking Bad because it was too violent and too focused on its villains (including WW), I couldn't get into IASIP because it was too dark and depressing. Currently in my family Succession has divided us into "This skewers billionaires" and "Nothing skewers billionaires apart from taking away their billions." But none of these are correct viewpoints. While it can be interesting to examine why some things grate on us and not other things, I agree trying to come to some moral conclusion from this is pretty danged silly.
-----------
Anyways. I love Rick and Morty. Someone above asked if we are "people[who] are deeply grappling with what they perceive as problematic about this show" and I'm not grappling. I feel pretty comfortable saying I find the show funny and interesting. My love for dumb sci-fi mind-benders makes me a sucker for Rick and Morty's willingness to turn the philosophical consequences of multi-verse fantasy into comedic and dramatic grist. I also like that it can make me laugh over a silly way to pronounce "Parmesan." I'm glad Roiland is get fired and glad whoever is producing the show has done a lot of work to make it bigger than Harmon and Roiland... including a separate Showrunner and a... slightly... more diverse writing staff.
posted by midmarch snowman at 1:52 PM on February 5, 2023
Everyone has different tastes and different senses of humor and no matter what TV show or movie or music I am currently enjoying, I need to just accept that someone out there thinks it totally sucks and is the worst. Other people's criticism of my treasured art is both fair and baseless and ultimately doesn't affect me at all. We are all hypocrites when it comes to art and entertainment and if you're okay with that then it makes it a lot easier to enjoy the things you enjoy.
It is fun to think about what makes a show "just too much" for us. I have numerous friends who hated Breaking Bad because it was too violent and too focused on its villains (including WW), I couldn't get into IASIP because it was too dark and depressing. Currently in my family Succession has divided us into "This skewers billionaires" and "Nothing skewers billionaires apart from taking away their billions." But none of these are correct viewpoints. While it can be interesting to examine why some things grate on us and not other things, I agree trying to come to some moral conclusion from this is pretty danged silly.
-----------
Anyways. I love Rick and Morty. Someone above asked if we are "people[who] are deeply grappling with what they perceive as problematic about this show" and I'm not grappling. I feel pretty comfortable saying I find the show funny and interesting. My love for dumb sci-fi mind-benders makes me a sucker for Rick and Morty's willingness to turn the philosophical consequences of multi-verse fantasy into comedic and dramatic grist. I also like that it can make me laugh over a silly way to pronounce "Parmesan." I'm glad Roiland is get fired and glad whoever is producing the show has done a lot of work to make it bigger than Harmon and Roiland... including a separate Showrunner and a... slightly... more diverse writing staff.
posted by midmarch snowman at 1:52 PM on February 5, 2023
Inside the Implosion of Justin Roiland’s Animation Empire (long read at THR), detailing parts of the gross stuff Roiland did, his terrible behavior at Rick & Morty, how the writers could not stand him, and how he'd been essentially doing only the voice for years.
The writing staff is reportedly frustrated to be lumped in with this asshole whom most of them have never even met, even on video conference.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 1:35 PM on February 7, 2023 [6 favorites]
The writing staff is reportedly frustrated to be lumped in with this asshole whom most of them have never even met, even on video conference.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 1:35 PM on February 7, 2023 [6 favorites]
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