Culture, identity, and belonging
January 28, 2023 2:32 PM Subscribe
My Son Asked For Minnie Mouse Underwear And I Realized We Have A Big Problem. If we believe in equality and inclusivity, it’s incumbent we create space early in kids’ development to experiment, experience and grow outside of narrow labels. For me and my son in that Target, these labels raised questions on why we separate genders in the first place and the ways this separation impacts how each of us sees the world.
This was something my mom occasional ran into when she was teaching preschool. One of her favorite stories was about a little boy who often wore a tutu from the dress-up bin at the school, and told his parents that he wanted "a blue tutu" for his birthday. When questioned about why, all he would say is "they look comfortable and I think I'd like to have one."
The teachers handled it by letting the kid wear whatever he wanted, and taking the slightly alarmed father aside to tell him that no, this was not necessarily proof that his son was "turning gay", it just meant that he was into tutus right now. He was only three - wait like six months and he'd probably be into something different anyway and forget all about the tutus. But what he would remember, they added, is whether Mommy and Daddy let him wear whatever he wanted without making a Big Thing about it, and that was more important.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 3:06 PM on January 28, 2023 [97 favorites]
The teachers handled it by letting the kid wear whatever he wanted, and taking the slightly alarmed father aside to tell him that no, this was not necessarily proof that his son was "turning gay", it just meant that he was into tutus right now. He was only three - wait like six months and he'd probably be into something different anyway and forget all about the tutus. But what he would remember, they added, is whether Mommy and Daddy let him wear whatever he wanted without making a Big Thing about it, and that was more important.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 3:06 PM on January 28, 2023 [97 favorites]
"Our own upbringings are perhaps the culprit — generationally outdated undertones of sexism and misogyny guiding us wrongly about what it means to enjoy a cultural moment that is deemed feminine instead of masculine. If femininity hadn’t been so maligned, would we care if boys embraced it?"
I tend to agree as I thought this was my grandmother for years.
posted by clavdivs at 3:07 PM on January 28, 2023 [22 favorites]
I tend to agree as I thought this was my grandmother for years.
posted by clavdivs at 3:07 PM on January 28, 2023 [22 favorites]
I had almost the same experience with my son. He wanted shoes that lit up, but he wanted them *colorful*, and the "boys" shoes were all drab black things with maybe green or blue lights. He also favors full-size leggings, which we can only find in the "girls" section, especially in the bright colors he likes best.
We have been very firm that he can dress however he wants and anyone who tells him different can lick a toad.
posted by Scattercat at 3:34 PM on January 28, 2023 [26 favorites]
We have been very firm that he can dress however he wants and anyone who tells him different can lick a toad.
posted by Scattercat at 3:34 PM on January 28, 2023 [26 favorites]
God I wish shoes, at least, were de-gendered. Shoes in bigger sizes are almost exclusively male and drab: a cute flat or sparkly sneaker above a woman's size 10 is nearly impossible to get. (yes you can get drag heels, but not regular shoes). My daughter can only wear men's sizes and it really takes the fun out of shopping. I can't help but think there are plenty of cis men who would like more color and fun in their shoes too. The one exception is Crocs, sometimes, but you can't wear them all the time.
posted by emjaybee at 3:54 PM on January 28, 2023 [20 favorites]
posted by emjaybee at 3:54 PM on January 28, 2023 [20 favorites]
Yes! Do you know how expensive/difficult it is to find a) women’s safety toe boots that are plain like the men’s (they always have to have streaks of purple or pink - that’s cool; I like purple and pink but my employers are like lol no) b) well-fitting COMPLETELY black sneakers, also required by most fire departments where you’re allowed to wear uniform shorts. My feet are an 8.5 in “women’s” so that means they’re too small for “men’s” and usually too large for “big kid’s.” It seems trivial but it is a pain in the backside!
posted by sara is disenchanted at 4:06 PM on January 28, 2023 [23 favorites]
posted by sara is disenchanted at 4:06 PM on January 28, 2023 [23 favorites]
"a blue tutu" for his birthday. When questioned about why, all he would say is "they look comfortable and I think I'd like to have one."
Tutus are comfortable?! I've worn them, they itch like hell! *boggle*
posted by jenfullmoon at 4:11 PM on January 28, 2023 [5 favorites]
Tutus are comfortable?! I've worn them, they itch like hell! *boggle*
posted by jenfullmoon at 4:11 PM on January 28, 2023 [5 favorites]
He may not mean physically comfortable.
posted by Iteki at 4:12 PM on January 28, 2023 [13 favorites]
posted by Iteki at 4:12 PM on January 28, 2023 [13 favorites]
Little ms flabdablet was outraged when she found out how much more practical and how much better put together men's clothing is, and quite rightly so.
On the other hand it took her quite a long time to come around to allowing as how the harem pants I've been wearing pretty much exclusively since acquiring them are not a total shame job and really are as amazingly comfy as I keep claiming.
The fuss people make about other people wearing whatever they're comfortable in is really very weird. Dress codes are bullshit.
posted by flabdablet at 4:13 PM on January 28, 2023 [21 favorites]
On the other hand it took her quite a long time to come around to allowing as how the harem pants I've been wearing pretty much exclusively since acquiring them are not a total shame job and really are as amazingly comfy as I keep claiming.
The fuss people make about other people wearing whatever they're comfortable in is really very weird. Dress codes are bullshit.
posted by flabdablet at 4:13 PM on January 28, 2023 [21 favorites]
I'm an old dude and I proudly wear my Pinkie Pie and Rainbow Dash t-shirts. It's long past time for folks to stop judging people for what they wear.
posted by SPrintF at 4:14 PM on January 28, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by SPrintF at 4:14 PM on January 28, 2023 [3 favorites]
You would think with so many long-tail options in other categories, big brand clothing and toy companies would find ways (even if only online ways) to DIY their products to get what you want in colors and licensed characters on whatever size and 'gendered' thing you want to buy. If Cafepress can do it, why can't Hanes?
Not just as a gender thing for kids, either - the number of times I've seen something in a child's size I've wanted for myself in a grown up size that isn't available - how hard is print on demand in this day and age? Especially when it would not only sell more of their stuff but actually make more people - and especially kids - actively happier.
posted by Mchelly at 4:14 PM on January 28, 2023 [6 favorites]
Not just as a gender thing for kids, either - the number of times I've seen something in a child's size I've wanted for myself in a grown up size that isn't available - how hard is print on demand in this day and age? Especially when it would not only sell more of their stuff but actually make more people - and especially kids - actively happier.
posted by Mchelly at 4:14 PM on January 28, 2023 [6 favorites]
I'm a grown man (54) and am still amazed at how things are needlessly gendered. I have a pink phone, a pink bike, a few pink hats (bought the last one of these the other day), a pair of pink running shoes (only available in womens sizes, of course). I tried on a pink toque once and bought it and the knitter said, "Does your girlfriend have the same size head as you?" "I don't have a girlfriend — and can you cut off the tag, I'm gonna wear it home."
The most common question I get about most of these things is, "Why pink?" No one ever asks why my shirt is black or my pants are burgundy or my bag is blue. I imagine if I was female, no one would ask me, "Why pink?" about any of these things.
I don't especially like pink, even, though obviously I'm fine with it. I bought a pink bike because it was an expensive bike and when the builder asked what color I wanted I said, "What's the least likely to be stolen?" Then, because of the constant "Why pink?" questions about the bike, I just decided to get other things in pink just to agitate people. It' so oddly fascinating to me.
I also often carry a clutch/purse and I can't tell you the number of people who insist on calling it a Murse. So I say, "Yeah, I don't call it that." "Oh, sorry, your bag." "No, you can call it a purse if you want, it just seems stupid as fuck to gender it." It honestly seems to be the first time they're made aware of what they're doing. It's just so ingrained.
posted by dobbs at 4:24 PM on January 28, 2023 [62 favorites]
The most common question I get about most of these things is, "Why pink?" No one ever asks why my shirt is black or my pants are burgundy or my bag is blue. I imagine if I was female, no one would ask me, "Why pink?" about any of these things.
I don't especially like pink, even, though obviously I'm fine with it. I bought a pink bike because it was an expensive bike and when the builder asked what color I wanted I said, "What's the least likely to be stolen?" Then, because of the constant "Why pink?" questions about the bike, I just decided to get other things in pink just to agitate people. It' so oddly fascinating to me.
I also often carry a clutch/purse and I can't tell you the number of people who insist on calling it a Murse. So I say, "Yeah, I don't call it that." "Oh, sorry, your bag." "No, you can call it a purse if you want, it just seems stupid as fuck to gender it." It honestly seems to be the first time they're made aware of what they're doing. It's just so ingrained.
posted by dobbs at 4:24 PM on January 28, 2023 [62 favorites]
I favor an inverted brown paper leaf bag with eye holes myself. Scary Santa if I have the energy.
posted by y2karl at 4:44 PM on January 28, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by y2karl at 4:44 PM on January 28, 2023 [3 favorites]
Maybe my experiences are unusual, because I live in a pretty progressive city, but I haven't seen any of the pushback that the author describes when my five-year-old son has gone off-gender-script. He has an older sister who he idolizes, and she has some really pretty dresses that no longer fit her, and he wears them when he wants to feel fancy, and it's been... fine? Like, daycare had no issue with it, and then when he moved to kindergarten, we flagged it for his teacher in case he got any flak for it from his peers, but he hasn't reported any harassment or uncomfortable feelings, and now it's just part of his rotation of clothes. Ditto with the pink nail polish, and the purple shoes. My sense is that it's a generational thing--kids being raised by Millenials don't care about this stuff nearly as much as we did thirty years ago. Maybe I'm just living in a bubble, but if I am, it's a pretty impenetrable bubble, because I've publicly vowed to rain fire on the first person who gives him shit for it, and so far it's been a complete non-issue.
posted by Mayor West at 4:44 PM on January 28, 2023 [18 favorites]
posted by Mayor West at 4:44 PM on January 28, 2023 [18 favorites]
Maybe my experiences are unusual, because I live in a pretty progressive city, but I haven't seen any of the pushback that the author describes when my five-year-old son has gone off-gender-script.
Same, my son wears purple and pink glitter unicorn shirts and plays babydoll at school. He also thinks boys rule. I don't know if it is generational - I'm not a millennial - but maybe community-based. Both my kids have LGBTQ teachers/classmates/families at their school and there is a strong curriculum around acceptance. Another possibility - my son is twice the size of his classmates and used to carry watermelons around at 18 months for fun, so maybe no one wants to find out what happens when you make someone twice your size mad. There is nothing like intimidation to enforce acceptance.
posted by Toddles at 4:54 PM on January 28, 2023 [8 favorites]
Same, my son wears purple and pink glitter unicorn shirts and plays babydoll at school. He also thinks boys rule. I don't know if it is generational - I'm not a millennial - but maybe community-based. Both my kids have LGBTQ teachers/classmates/families at their school and there is a strong curriculum around acceptance. Another possibility - my son is twice the size of his classmates and used to carry watermelons around at 18 months for fun, so maybe no one wants to find out what happens when you make someone twice your size mad. There is nothing like intimidation to enforce acceptance.
posted by Toddles at 4:54 PM on January 28, 2023 [8 favorites]
I imagine if I was female, no one would ask me, "Why pink?" about any of these things.
ISTR that for a while in the 70s or 80s, pink dress shirts were big in men's fashion. As were pastel-colored polo shirts. (maybe still are?? I dunno, I've been WFH for about 12 years now and I don't even have an office wardrobe anymore.)
posted by Greg_Ace at 5:22 PM on January 28, 2023 [5 favorites]
ISTR that for a while in the 70s or 80s, pink dress shirts were big in men's fashion. As were pastel-colored polo shirts. (maybe still are?? I dunno, I've been WFH for about 12 years now and I don't even have an office wardrobe anymore.)
posted by Greg_Ace at 5:22 PM on January 28, 2023 [5 favorites]
I can find very good boots (non work) in very large women's sizes, and sometimes fancy shoes that aren't drag heels. But I don't think I've ever seen tennis shoes above about an 11. Then again I don't care enough about shoes to specifically seek out what would fit
posted by Jacen at 5:40 PM on January 28, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by Jacen at 5:40 PM on January 28, 2023 [1 favorite]
Now do the exercise where you read the comments in this thread while pretending that you're a trans woman.
posted by tigrrrlily at 5:51 PM on January 28, 2023 [8 favorites]
posted by tigrrrlily at 5:51 PM on January 28, 2023 [8 favorites]
ISTR that for a while in the 70s or 80s, pink dress shirts were big in men's fashion. As were pastel-colored polo shirts.
When preppie went mainstream.
posted by Thorzdad at 5:57 PM on January 28, 2023 [7 favorites]
When preppie went mainstream.
posted by Thorzdad at 5:57 PM on January 28, 2023 [7 favorites]
i am a trans femme tigrrrlily and i'm not sure what you're going for with your comment
posted by kokaku at 5:58 PM on January 28, 2023 [15 favorites]
posted by kokaku at 5:58 PM on January 28, 2023 [15 favorites]
My daughter is, so yeah. Though there are plenty of tall cis women.
posted by emjaybee at 6:17 PM on January 28, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by emjaybee at 6:17 PM on January 28, 2023 [1 favorite]
My oldest son has always liked pink. Early in kindergarten he figured out it was a “girls” color and laid off the pink clothes until he hit HS, although he never gave up his Shopkins and chose a pink soccer ball when he was 8 (FYI - balls were shared in practice and nobody ever refused to use the “girls” ball or even acted like it was weird).
Nowadays, his wardrobe is strictly jeans and tshirts (with several pink ones in the mix) and when he masks up, he often will take his mom’s Vera Bradley paisley and floral print masks. He found these Nike Lebron Witness shoes that he loves and he proudly told us that the only other person in the school with them was a girl on the volleyball team.
posted by Big Al 8000 at 6:37 PM on January 28, 2023
Nowadays, his wardrobe is strictly jeans and tshirts (with several pink ones in the mix) and when he masks up, he often will take his mom’s Vera Bradley paisley and floral print masks. He found these Nike Lebron Witness shoes that he loves and he proudly told us that the only other person in the school with them was a girl on the volleyball team.
posted by Big Al 8000 at 6:37 PM on January 28, 2023
ISTR that for a while in the 70s or 80s, pink dress shirts were big in men's fashion. As were pastel-colored polo shirts.
Oh, I have family pictures to prove it. in '89-90 Sears had a shoe sale on every color converse shoe there was for a dollar a pair. I bought 4 of each. left pink, black right even drew an 'r' on right 'l' on left, a youth leftover from my difficulty to learn either as I'm ambidextrous.
dam they looked good.
posted by clavdivs at 6:39 PM on January 28, 2023 [3 favorites]
Oh, I have family pictures to prove it. in '89-90 Sears had a shoe sale on every color converse shoe there was for a dollar a pair. I bought 4 of each. left pink, black right even drew an 'r' on right 'l' on left, a youth leftover from my difficulty to learn either as I'm ambidextrous.
dam they looked good.
posted by clavdivs at 6:39 PM on January 28, 2023 [3 favorites]
I grew up in the late 80s and early 90s, and my parents (or my mom at any rate) made an effort to not gender everything all the time. I got given a lot of young adult literature aimed at both girls and boys, so along with "boys" stuff like Hatchet and Macdonald Hall, I also got the Beverly Cleary and Babysitter's Club. The Hardy Boys AND the Nancy Drew. I also grew up playing with girl neighbors, so I never really got the idea that there was this separation and segregation, until 3rd grade when I was talking with a (girl) friend in class, and the teacher decided to say something like "oh, look who'll be getting married soon" Everyone laughed and I felt so ashamed and I pretty much stopped being her friend. Classmates made fun of me for being friendly with girls after that too and so I figured I must be weird and I tried to act more in line with the other boys and it broke my heart but I did it out of self-preservation.
High school wasn't a lot better. I'm not sure why I was an outcast back then. Maybe a little of the 'ol neurodivergence. The social hierarchies of high school made no sense to me, and there weren't things like anime clubs until I got to college so liking Sailor Moon and Cardcaptor Sakura was just... stuff I did on my own. It took me until my late 30s to realize like, huh, gender is this box I never really fit into, and also some boys are pretty and I don't always have to be the top sexually and I like nail polish and pink and purple and I guess I'm kinda non-binary. All my friends in college were pretty much queer women? Anyway, I try, now that I've learned to, to send love back in time to that little boy, and I sincerely hope that culturally we stop slotting kids into boxes and punishing them for not fitting into those boxes. Let kids be who they are.
posted by signsofrain at 6:45 PM on January 28, 2023 [18 favorites]
High school wasn't a lot better. I'm not sure why I was an outcast back then. Maybe a little of the 'ol neurodivergence. The social hierarchies of high school made no sense to me, and there weren't things like anime clubs until I got to college so liking Sailor Moon and Cardcaptor Sakura was just... stuff I did on my own. It took me until my late 30s to realize like, huh, gender is this box I never really fit into, and also some boys are pretty and I don't always have to be the top sexually and I like nail polish and pink and purple and I guess I'm kinda non-binary. All my friends in college were pretty much queer women? Anyway, I try, now that I've learned to, to send love back in time to that little boy, and I sincerely hope that culturally we stop slotting kids into boxes and punishing them for not fitting into those boxes. Let kids be who they are.
posted by signsofrain at 6:45 PM on January 28, 2023 [18 favorites]
I remember years ago, reading in an article about the whole pink vs blue thing in identifying babies, that the irony was pink was originally used in clothing for men. This was way back over a hundred years ago.
posted by njohnson23 at 6:47 PM on January 28, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by njohnson23 at 6:47 PM on January 28, 2023 [1 favorite]
I recall the passage in The Great Gatsby that goes something like “An Oxford man? The hell he is! He wears a pink suit!” The pink suit then being a symbol not of effeminacy, but of nouveau riche sensibilities.
There’s also the Machiavelli quote: “Two yards of pink cloth can make a gentleman.”
I have a couple of pink button-down Oxford shirts (heh, irony) that I sometimes wear with a nice tie for office attire.
posted by darkstar at 6:58 PM on January 28, 2023 [3 favorites]
There’s also the Machiavelli quote: “Two yards of pink cloth can make a gentleman.”
I have a couple of pink button-down Oxford shirts (heh, irony) that I sometimes wear with a nice tie for office attire.
posted by darkstar at 6:58 PM on January 28, 2023 [3 favorites]
I’m an 80s kid (relatively straight, cis male) and once asked my mom to buy a My Little Pony figure for me: I must have been okay with asking for it, because she took me to the store to pick one out, but I keenly remember that when we got to the checkout counter I ducked down so the cashier wouldn’t see me. I also remember being super confused about why I felt like I needed to do that.
(Tangentially related: She-Ra was way better than He-Man.)
Now it’s 2023 - so many years later! - and I have my own toddler (a boy) and am frustrated to hear my ostensibly (but maybe not?) progressive friends/parents calcifying into this standard-issue gender shit. 100% “look who will be getting married,” just like signsofrain says, and a lot of segregation wrt who plays with who. My partner and I were just last night talking about how we’re going to navigate this.
And yeah, shopping for boys’ clothes is absolutely dire - everything is blue and black and grey or a camo stew of them all, with ugly dinosaur designs and “ROAR” sound effects. Meanwhile, in the girls’ section, we can find hot pink hoodies and bright solid-fluorescent socks that don’t make our son look like the mudflaps of a Ford F-150.
posted by TangoCharlie at 7:10 PM on January 28, 2023 [17 favorites]
(Tangentially related: She-Ra was way better than He-Man.)
Now it’s 2023 - so many years later! - and I have my own toddler (a boy) and am frustrated to hear my ostensibly (but maybe not?) progressive friends/parents calcifying into this standard-issue gender shit. 100% “look who will be getting married,” just like signsofrain says, and a lot of segregation wrt who plays with who. My partner and I were just last night talking about how we’re going to navigate this.
And yeah, shopping for boys’ clothes is absolutely dire - everything is blue and black and grey or a camo stew of them all, with ugly dinosaur designs and “ROAR” sound effects. Meanwhile, in the girls’ section, we can find hot pink hoodies and bright solid-fluorescent socks that don’t make our son look like the mudflaps of a Ford F-150.
posted by TangoCharlie at 7:10 PM on January 28, 2023 [17 favorites]
yeah my trans lady self is not sure what tigrrrlily is getting at either, I’m pretty damn glad to see all these stories of people doing their best to not cram their kids into a tiny gendered box, maybe some of those kids are going to end up trans and will hopefully get similar levels of parental support and that’s pretty nice, my mom was incredibly supportive of my transition and that was great and I would love for that to be the rule rather than the exception among my trans friends, maybe some of these kids will just end up as butch ladies or femme dudes and that’s fine too?
posted by egypturnash at 7:56 PM on January 28, 2023 [20 favorites]
posted by egypturnash at 7:56 PM on January 28, 2023 [20 favorites]
A friend of mine started a company almost a decade ago (called Princess Awesome/Boy Wonder). Their goal was to provide sciencey/nerdy clothes for girls, and bright fun colors and flowers and unicorns for boys. Also dresses with pockets, because anyone of any gender wearing a dress should get pockets too.
I was a little worried about her, because I assumed that the success of her company (and other similar ones) would lead mainstream retailers to de-gender their clothing lines; there is obviously a market after all. But nope, it’s been a decade. And stores are still pretty heavily gendered.
posted by nat at 8:35 PM on January 28, 2023 [10 favorites]
I was a little worried about her, because I assumed that the success of her company (and other similar ones) would lead mainstream retailers to de-gender their clothing lines; there is obviously a market after all. But nope, it’s been a decade. And stores are still pretty heavily gendered.
posted by nat at 8:35 PM on January 28, 2023 [10 favorites]
Polarn O Pyret isn't cheap but is good quality and unisex kidswear. They have regular sales when the prices go down.
posted by TheophileEscargot at 8:46 PM on January 28, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by TheophileEscargot at 8:46 PM on January 28, 2023 [2 favorites]
Articles exactly like this were being written 15 years ago when my son was 2. It's depressing to see that we're not making any progress on this.
posted by Redstart at 9:00 PM on January 28, 2023 [14 favorites]
posted by Redstart at 9:00 PM on January 28, 2023 [14 favorites]
There are many problems with gendered clothing for kids, but one of them is that girl-coded clothing restricts movement more than boy-coded clothing, which means that girls wearing girl coded clothing have less opportunities for physical play, sport, and developing motor skills and balance skills.
Girl coded clothing includes tighter sleeves and tighter shoulders;
and tighter leggings than boy coded clothing, all of which significantly restricts freedom of movement.
posted by chariot pulled by cassowaries at 9:52 PM on January 28, 2023 [6 favorites]
Girl coded clothing includes tighter sleeves and tighter shoulders;
and tighter leggings than boy coded clothing, all of which significantly restricts freedom of movement.
posted by chariot pulled by cassowaries at 9:52 PM on January 28, 2023 [6 favorites]
Tutus are comfortable?! I've worn them, they itch like hell! *boggle*
I mean, personal anecdote and all: I own probably 5 tulle skirts (basically tutus). I find every single one of them more comfortable than my most “comfortable” pair of blue jeans (and I have tried a lot of jeans).
posted by thivaia at 1:34 AM on January 29, 2023 [1 favorite]
I mean, personal anecdote and all: I own probably 5 tulle skirts (basically tutus). I find every single one of them more comfortable than my most “comfortable” pair of blue jeans (and I have tried a lot of jeans).
posted by thivaia at 1:34 AM on January 29, 2023 [1 favorite]
A friend of mine started a company almost a decade ago (called Princess Awesome/Boy Wonder).
I went to check out the designs, and I found one which I think a friend would really like... but, ironically, it's only available in women's sizes!
posted by alexei at 2:56 AM on January 29, 2023
I went to check out the designs, and I found one which I think a friend would really like... but, ironically, it's only available in women's sizes!
posted by alexei at 2:56 AM on January 29, 2023
Which is yet another way that gender coding fucks up clothes. Male-coded clothing has sizes that almost always reflect some kind of measurement, but what the fuck do the size codes for women's clothing ever even mean other than some variation on "you're too fat"? How is it that a Size 10 garment from one manufacturer can end up fitting the same body as a Size 16 from another? It's insanity-making.
posted by flabdablet at 3:50 AM on January 29, 2023 [8 favorites]
posted by flabdablet at 3:50 AM on January 29, 2023 [8 favorites]
Male-coded clothing has sizes that almost always reflect some kind of measurement
That is not my experience, at least not in the Big & Tall department.
I have a list of what sizes of shirts in which brands actually fit. It doesn't help that XXXL, 3X, 3XL, 3XB, and 3XLT within the same brand mean different things. And then you get Asian brands online where a "5X" is maybe a US XXL, except they don't necessarily tell you it's an Asian size. And then some shirts are "slim fit" or "classic fit" or "modern fit" or "athletic fit" -- why 3X "slim fit" shirts exist, I will never understand.
And then there's the practice of giving dress shirt sizes according to neck measurement. I have never once tried on a shirt and thought "the neck is too small, I have to go a size up."
posted by Foosnark at 6:03 AM on January 29, 2023 [2 favorites]
That is not my experience, at least not in the Big & Tall department.
I have a list of what sizes of shirts in which brands actually fit. It doesn't help that XXXL, 3X, 3XL, 3XB, and 3XLT within the same brand mean different things. And then you get Asian brands online where a "5X" is maybe a US XXL, except they don't necessarily tell you it's an Asian size. And then some shirts are "slim fit" or "classic fit" or "modern fit" or "athletic fit" -- why 3X "slim fit" shirts exist, I will never understand.
And then there's the practice of giving dress shirt sizes according to neck measurement. I have never once tried on a shirt and thought "the neck is too small, I have to go a size up."
posted by Foosnark at 6:03 AM on January 29, 2023 [2 favorites]
Which is yet another way that gender coding fucks up clothes. Male-coded clothing has sizes that almost always reflect some kind of measurement, but what the fuck do the size codes for women's clothing ever even mean other than some variation on "you're too fat"? How is it that a Size 10 garment from one manufacturer can end up fitting the same body as a Size 16 from another? It's insanity-making
I really like the way the shop Gender Free World handles this - their sizes have two separate components, a named clothing style code and a numerical code. So an Alex size 12 would fit quite differently to a Billie size 12.
"Alex - has more room for wider hips or bigger bottoms
your hips measure 9cm or more larger than your bust measurement.
or your tummy/waist is similar or bigger than your bust measurement
if you fit a classic 'pear shape' description
If your trouser size is one or two sizes larger than your top size eg a 14 for trousers but 10 or 12 for tops.
Billie - has more room for much bigger busts
your bust size is significantly larger in relation to the rest of you
your cup size is larger than an EE and you have a smaller waist measurement than your chest by at least 10 cm.
If your trouser size is one or two sizes smaller than your top size. Eg a 10 for trousers but 12 or 14 for tops.
Charlie - a classic cut, loose fit.
your shoulders and hips are similar widths regardless of your waist size
you might describe your figure as straight up and down or
you might describe your figure as apple shaped or
you might describe your figure as hourglass
you may or may not have breasts
you take the same size in tops and in trousers
Drew - similar to a traditional 'mens' shirt cut, but of course you don't need to be male to wear it, will fit you if
you have a long body
your shoulders are much broader than your hips"
posted by chariot pulled by cassowaries at 6:23 AM on January 29, 2023 [21 favorites]
I really like the way the shop Gender Free World handles this - their sizes have two separate components, a named clothing style code and a numerical code. So an Alex size 12 would fit quite differently to a Billie size 12.
"Alex - has more room for wider hips or bigger bottoms
your hips measure 9cm or more larger than your bust measurement.
or your tummy/waist is similar or bigger than your bust measurement
if you fit a classic 'pear shape' description
If your trouser size is one or two sizes larger than your top size eg a 14 for trousers but 10 or 12 for tops.
Billie - has more room for much bigger busts
your bust size is significantly larger in relation to the rest of you
your cup size is larger than an EE and you have a smaller waist measurement than your chest by at least 10 cm.
If your trouser size is one or two sizes smaller than your top size. Eg a 10 for trousers but 12 or 14 for tops.
Charlie - a classic cut, loose fit.
your shoulders and hips are similar widths regardless of your waist size
you might describe your figure as straight up and down or
you might describe your figure as apple shaped or
you might describe your figure as hourglass
you may or may not have breasts
you take the same size in tops and in trousers
Drew - similar to a traditional 'mens' shirt cut, but of course you don't need to be male to wear it, will fit you if
you have a long body
your shoulders are much broader than your hips"
posted by chariot pulled by cassowaries at 6:23 AM on January 29, 2023 [21 favorites]
Yeah, it’s interesting—I’m a cis male, male presenting, but I’ve been painting my nails off and on for over 20 years. Right now I have blue sparkly polish on and I’ve only ever gotten overly praising “WOW I LOVE YOUR NAILS OMG” from people which is nice I guess but also I’m 42 years old, I’m fine, trust me.
Interestingly no one has ever asked me why I paint my nails, and I even have an answer ready: “Because I like it.”
posted by rhymedirective at 6:38 AM on January 29, 2023 [2 favorites]
Interestingly no one has ever asked me why I paint my nails, and I even have an answer ready: “Because I like it.”
posted by rhymedirective at 6:38 AM on January 29, 2023 [2 favorites]
How is it that a Size 10 garment from one manufacturer can end up fitting the same body as a Size 16 from another? It's insanity-making
When I'm God-Emperor, clothes manufacturers will have to (a) size things using body measurements like waist/inseam/chest (we can quibble about exactly which ones) and (b) all advertisements have to feature an unaltered production example of what they say is the correct size for the model's body measurements.
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 6:49 AM on January 29, 2023 [5 favorites]
When I'm God-Emperor, clothes manufacturers will have to (a) size things using body measurements like waist/inseam/chest (we can quibble about exactly which ones) and (b) all advertisements have to feature an unaltered production example of what they say is the correct size for the model's body measurements.
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 6:49 AM on January 29, 2023 [5 favorites]
Also dresses with pockets, because anyone of any gender wearing a dress should get pockets too.
A little plug here for Skirtcraft, because “skirts and pockets are for everybody!”
posted by nickmark at 7:40 AM on January 29, 2023 [3 favorites]
A little plug here for Skirtcraft, because “skirts and pockets are for everybody!”
posted by nickmark at 7:40 AM on January 29, 2023 [3 favorites]
Male-coded clothing has sizes that almost always reflect some kind of measurement
While technically true, there seems to be a vast disagreement in the men’s clothing world as to what an inch is. A 34-inch waist from one maker matches a 32 from another. Sometimes, it widely varies between styles from the same maker.
And don’t get me started on what “medium” is supposed to mean. Or how so many men’s tops are apparently styled for the three or four triangular-shaped guys with narrow waists, flat abs, and three-foot-wide bodybuilder shoulders.
posted by Thorzdad at 7:44 AM on January 29, 2023 [4 favorites]
While technically true, there seems to be a vast disagreement in the men’s clothing world as to what an inch is. A 34-inch waist from one maker matches a 32 from another. Sometimes, it widely varies between styles from the same maker.
And don’t get me started on what “medium” is supposed to mean. Or how so many men’s tops are apparently styled for the three or four triangular-shaped guys with narrow waists, flat abs, and three-foot-wide bodybuilder shoulders.
posted by Thorzdad at 7:44 AM on January 29, 2023 [4 favorites]
A friend of mine started a company almost a decade ago (called Princess Awesome/Boy Wonder). Their goal was to provide sciencey/nerdy clothes for girls, and bright fun colors and flowers and unicorns for boys.
nat, these are amazing! I am glad there are adult sizes too, because I see a couple dresses I looked at and wondered how I ever lived without these
posted by [insert clever name here] at 8:06 AM on January 29, 2023 [1 favorite]
nat, these are amazing! I am glad there are adult sizes too, because I see a couple dresses I looked at and wondered how I ever lived without these
posted by [insert clever name here] at 8:06 AM on January 29, 2023 [1 favorite]
When I'm God-Emperor, clothes manufacturers will have to (a) size things using body measurements like waist/inseam/chest...
I bought the aforesaid comfy pants from one who does exactly that.
Bullshit sizing: just say no.
posted by flabdablet at 8:10 AM on January 29, 2023 [2 favorites]
I bought the aforesaid comfy pants from one who does exactly that.
Bullshit sizing: just say no.
posted by flabdablet at 8:10 AM on January 29, 2023 [2 favorites]
We were in Romania at Christmas and our teen couldn't wait for the stores to open after the holiday, because he was entranced with colorful, whimsical, buckle-and-strap festooned variations on Doc Marten type boots that are all the rage among designers there. When the stores did open up, it turned out these were all women's boots. While kiddo didn't blink and immediately asked to see some in his size, it took a lot of effort to convince the clerks he knew they were "for women" and just didn't care. Even so, it turns out there aren't exactly many Romanian women who wear a size 44, so we struck out.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 8:56 AM on January 29, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by DirtyOldTown at 8:56 AM on January 29, 2023 [2 favorites]
Anyway, shout out to all the parents trying hard to let their kids out of the box. It takes a certain amount of unlearning but the next generations will be better off for it.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 8:57 AM on January 29, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by DirtyOldTown at 8:57 AM on January 29, 2023 [3 favorites]
While technically true, there seems to be a vast disagreement in the men’s clothing world as to what an inch is. A 34-inch waist from one maker matches a 32 from another. Sometimes, it widely varies between styles from the same maker.
Ah, the day I discovered it's not the imperial system but systemS was when I learned the tip to not simply buy a measuring tape without checking if it's marked on the Chinese system instead as their inch is a little shorter. And isn't the English meme about short Napoleon is based on (deliberate) misunderstanding of the French imperial system? Anyway, the metric, try it!
posted by cendawanita at 10:06 AM on January 29, 2023 [2 favorites]
Ah, the day I discovered it's not the imperial system but systemS was when I learned the tip to not simply buy a measuring tape without checking if it's marked on the Chinese system instead as their inch is a little shorter. And isn't the English meme about short Napoleon is based on (deliberate) misunderstanding of the French imperial system? Anyway, the metric, try it!
posted by cendawanita at 10:06 AM on January 29, 2023 [2 favorites]
why 3X "slim fit" shirts exist, I will never understand.
And then there's the practice of giving dress shirt sizes according to neck measurement. I have never once tried on a shirt and thought "the neck is too small, I have to go a size up."
The answer to one is the answer to the other. Everytime I put on a regular fit dress shirt in my "size", the neck is too small and I have to go a size up. But then, the torso is cut for someone with a larger circumference around the middle than me, hence, size up + slim fit.
Those aforementioned pink men's dress shirts are still in fashion in some places, I know a couple people that use it as a "power" color at the office. (Which I think is silly, just wear pink if you like it. It's pretty.)
posted by mrgoat at 10:38 AM on January 29, 2023
And then there's the practice of giving dress shirt sizes according to neck measurement. I have never once tried on a shirt and thought "the neck is too small, I have to go a size up."
The answer to one is the answer to the other. Everytime I put on a regular fit dress shirt in my "size", the neck is too small and I have to go a size up. But then, the torso is cut for someone with a larger circumference around the middle than me, hence, size up + slim fit.
Those aforementioned pink men's dress shirts are still in fashion in some places, I know a couple people that use it as a "power" color at the office. (Which I think is silly, just wear pink if you like it. It's pretty.)
posted by mrgoat at 10:38 AM on January 29, 2023
I'm always saddened to see the most fabulous sparkly pink/gold/silver/lavender shoes are only very small "girls" shoes. My 44yr old partner would look great in them, would wear them happily and proudly, and it would make me happy to see them bringing a bit of flair to the world.
Don't get me started on sports team clothing, gaaahhhhh!!!
posted by winesong at 11:07 AM on January 29, 2023 [1 favorite]
Don't get me started on sports team clothing, gaaahhhhh!!!
posted by winesong at 11:07 AM on January 29, 2023 [1 favorite]
Male-coded clothing has sizes that almost always reflect some kind of measurement
Oh, god, men's suits. I basically refuse to wear matching jacket/pants these days, because buying a suit is so awful. Hey, yeah, let's condense the entire spectrum of sizing into a single number (chest circumference), and then make everything else roughly proportional to it and have a tailor adjust it to fit. Which is great, until someone like me lumbers into the store. I'm the male equivalent of the hourglass shape--massive chest and shoulders, titanic thighs and calves, and a little itty-bitty wasp waist. When I pull a suit off the rack, it's a 52XL, which means a jacket that generally fits my upper half pretty well, and pair of pants that are fully 24+ inches too large at the waist. I once literally fit my entire lower half into one pant leg of a suit that was nominally in my size. No tailor in the world can fix that. It looks like someone took the mainsail off a frigate and wrapped it crudely around me.
In conclusion, all clothing sizing is terrible, and gender normativity in clothing is worse. Thank you for coming to my TED talk.
posted by Mayor West at 1:54 PM on January 29, 2023 [7 favorites]
Oh, god, men's suits. I basically refuse to wear matching jacket/pants these days, because buying a suit is so awful. Hey, yeah, let's condense the entire spectrum of sizing into a single number (chest circumference), and then make everything else roughly proportional to it and have a tailor adjust it to fit. Which is great, until someone like me lumbers into the store. I'm the male equivalent of the hourglass shape--massive chest and shoulders, titanic thighs and calves, and a little itty-bitty wasp waist. When I pull a suit off the rack, it's a 52XL, which means a jacket that generally fits my upper half pretty well, and pair of pants that are fully 24+ inches too large at the waist. I once literally fit my entire lower half into one pant leg of a suit that was nominally in my size. No tailor in the world can fix that. It looks like someone took the mainsail off a frigate and wrapped it crudely around me.
In conclusion, all clothing sizing is terrible, and gender normativity in clothing is worse. Thank you for coming to my TED talk.
posted by Mayor West at 1:54 PM on January 29, 2023 [7 favorites]
Now do the exercise where you read the comments in this thread while pretending that you're a trans woman.
I'll raise you: imagine you're a fat trans woman who also has the flattest, widest feet her podiatrist has ever seen. I can usually make clothes work (OneStopPlus is a godsend) but I can't even buy "men's" shoes in a brick-and-mortar store; if they're wide enough to fit there's about an inch+ of empty space at the toe. In women's shoe sizes I'm literally off the charts.
posted by Faint of Butt at 2:13 PM on January 29, 2023
I'll raise you: imagine you're a fat trans woman who also has the flattest, widest feet her podiatrist has ever seen. I can usually make clothes work (OneStopPlus is a godsend) but I can't even buy "men's" shoes in a brick-and-mortar store; if they're wide enough to fit there's about an inch+ of empty space at the toe. In women's shoe sizes I'm literally off the charts.
posted by Faint of Butt at 2:13 PM on January 29, 2023
When I'm God-Emperor, clothes manufacturers will have to (a) size things using body measurements like waist/inseam/chest...
When you're God-Emperor, why should you care? It's not like you will get to be wearing any Big Worm pants.
posted by y2karl at 2:14 PM on January 29, 2023 [5 favorites]
When you're God-Emperor, why should you care? It's not like you will get to be wearing any Big Worm pants.
posted by y2karl at 2:14 PM on January 29, 2023 [5 favorites]
The teachers handled it by letting the kid wear whatever he wanted, and taking the slightly alarmed father aside to tell him that no, this was not necessarily proof that his son was "turning gay", it just meant that he was into tutus right now. He was only three - wait like six months and he'd probably be into something different anyway and forget all about the tutus.
The teachers surely meant well, but as a trans person I'm afraid I hear this as, "Don't worry, your son probably isn't trans, gay or anything else that risks disturbing your traditional notions of the gender binary! He's merely going through a phase, wearing traditionally feminine clothes, and in a few months he'll be back to normal..."
I'm very glad the teachers weren't trying to force rigid gender norms on the kid, and that's certainly progress from how it was when I was a child. Unfortunately, I don't think it's as much progress as a lot of cisgender people would like to believe.
posted by Ursula Hitler at 5:18 PM on January 29, 2023 [7 favorites]
The teachers surely meant well, but as a trans person I'm afraid I hear this as, "Don't worry, your son probably isn't trans, gay or anything else that risks disturbing your traditional notions of the gender binary! He's merely going through a phase, wearing traditionally feminine clothes, and in a few months he'll be back to normal..."
I'm very glad the teachers weren't trying to force rigid gender norms on the kid, and that's certainly progress from how it was when I was a child. Unfortunately, I don't think it's as much progress as a lot of cisgender people would like to believe.
posted by Ursula Hitler at 5:18 PM on January 29, 2023 [7 favorites]
So learn to sew or hire someone to make clothes or buy used and dye the garments. Or buy only black or navy or hot pink.
Personally, I think writing for HuffPo is a bigger issue than Minnie Mouse jock-straps.
posted by Ideefixe at 6:01 PM on January 29, 2023
Personally, I think writing for HuffPo is a bigger issue than Minnie Mouse jock-straps.
posted by Ideefixe at 6:01 PM on January 29, 2023
I have never once tried on a shirt and thought "the neck is too small, I have to go a size up."
As a man who tends to carry extra weight in the neck and face first, I wish this were my experience. If a shirt fits my torso, the neck is too small, if I go up enough sizes that it fits my neck, then the rest of the fabric billows around me like I’m wearing a tent.
posted by Pater Aletheias at 6:12 PM on January 29, 2023
As a man who tends to carry extra weight in the neck and face first, I wish this were my experience. If a shirt fits my torso, the neck is too small, if I go up enough sizes that it fits my neck, then the rest of the fabric billows around me like I’m wearing a tent.
posted by Pater Aletheias at 6:12 PM on January 29, 2023
The teachers surely meant well, but as a trans person I'm afraid I hear this as, "Don't worry, your son probably isn't trans, gay or anything else that risks disturbing your traditional notions of the gender binary!...."
Apologies, that is 100% due to my own mis-phrasing of Mom's actual point.
Mom's actual point was more like, "clothes are just clothes, and your kid isn't assigning meaning to them. He'll remember if you do do that."
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 7:40 AM on January 30, 2023
Apologies, that is 100% due to my own mis-phrasing of Mom's actual point.
Mom's actual point was more like, "clothes are just clothes, and your kid isn't assigning meaning to them. He'll remember if you do do that."
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 7:40 AM on January 30, 2023
anyone of any gender wearing a dress should get pockets
As a male who wears traditionally male clothes, I was vaguely aware of the gendering of pockets, but the silliness didn't become clear until I had a baby. What the hell is a 6-month-old boy supposed to be putting in his pockets? (And no, they weren't big enough for a pacifier.)
posted by Mr.Know-it-some at 8:37 AM on January 30, 2023
As a male who wears traditionally male clothes, I was vaguely aware of the gendering of pockets, but the silliness didn't become clear until I had a baby. What the hell is a 6-month-old boy supposed to be putting in his pockets? (And no, they weren't big enough for a pacifier.)
posted by Mr.Know-it-some at 8:37 AM on January 30, 2023
Important to remember that gender identity and gender expression are two separate spectrums that don't always correlate. (Not directed at anyone in this thread, just something I have to remind myself of sometimes.)
My son grew up wearing tutus and princess dresses, playing with dolls, etc. We had to regularly tell preschool teachers that it was fine and they should let him wear whatever he wanted at dress-up time. We checked in with him at various times during his childhood to communicate that, if he was trans, that would be perfectly fine. But no, he's just a gay boy who likes femme gender presentation.
Now nearly 20, 6'1", and a dance major in college, he regularly shops at women's boutiques like Zara and Akira (we keep telling him he will need to marry rich to support his clothes habit). He is still drawn to bright colors, flowy lines, and platform shoes. His style tends to vacillate between old Hollywood glamour and Jewish grandmother.
He also is happy to tell anyone to fuck off if they give him a hard time about his look. (He also recognizes that he has a certain privilege in that most people are not willing to mouth off at a tall, fit guy.)
All of this is to say that I recognize that it is super-hard to deal with this sort of thing with a pre-schooler or elementary kid, and it all feels fraught, but I can tell you from experience that if you do your best with your kid, they will turn out well.
posted by Ben Trismegistus at 9:02 AM on January 30, 2023 [2 favorites]
My son grew up wearing tutus and princess dresses, playing with dolls, etc. We had to regularly tell preschool teachers that it was fine and they should let him wear whatever he wanted at dress-up time. We checked in with him at various times during his childhood to communicate that, if he was trans, that would be perfectly fine. But no, he's just a gay boy who likes femme gender presentation.
Now nearly 20, 6'1", and a dance major in college, he regularly shops at women's boutiques like Zara and Akira (we keep telling him he will need to marry rich to support his clothes habit). He is still drawn to bright colors, flowy lines, and platform shoes. His style tends to vacillate between old Hollywood glamour and Jewish grandmother.
He also is happy to tell anyone to fuck off if they give him a hard time about his look. (He also recognizes that he has a certain privilege in that most people are not willing to mouth off at a tall, fit guy.)
All of this is to say that I recognize that it is super-hard to deal with this sort of thing with a pre-schooler or elementary kid, and it all feels fraught, but I can tell you from experience that if you do your best with your kid, they will turn out well.
posted by Ben Trismegistus at 9:02 AM on January 30, 2023 [2 favorites]
As a male who wears traditionally male clothes, I was vaguely aware of the gendering of pockets, but the silliness didn't become clear until I had a baby. What the hell is a 6-month-old boy supposed to be putting in his pockets? (And no, they weren't big enough for a pacifier.)
The keys to the patriarchy.
posted by DebetEsse at 10:25 AM on January 30, 2023 [11 favorites]
The keys to the patriarchy.
posted by DebetEsse at 10:25 AM on January 30, 2023 [11 favorites]
So learn to sew or hire someone to make clothes or buy used and dye the garments. Or buy only black or navy or hot pink.
Was "oh, you don't want/have a kid who doesn't want to adhere to a rigid gender binary? well fuck you, just do a buttload of extra work and take on a bunch of extra expense if you want to feel comfortable" really the take you were going for here?
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 2:43 PM on January 30, 2023 [5 favorites]
Was "oh, you don't want/have a kid who doesn't want to adhere to a rigid gender binary? well fuck you, just do a buttload of extra work and take on a bunch of extra expense if you want to feel comfortable" really the take you were going for here?
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 2:43 PM on January 30, 2023 [5 favorites]
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posted by grumpybear69 at 2:49 PM on January 28, 2023 [9 favorites]