38,387
February 7, 2023 6:41 AM Subscribe
LeBron James is 36 points from becoming the leading scorer in NBA history. He may beat Kareem Abdul-Jabbar's record while playing for the Los Angeles Lakers against the Milwaukee Bucks -- the two NBA teams Abdul-Jabbar played for. If you want to be at courtside, be prepared to shell out five or six figures. The Washington Post looks at How the NBA scoring record evolved from Wilt to Kareem to LeBron (gift article), and The Athletic looks at James's longevity as measured by the nine father-son duos he's played against (archive.today link).
The Ringer also had an interesting article about how and why this may be the last major NBA record broken for a long, long time.
posted by The Card Cheat at 7:30 AM on February 7, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by The Card Cheat at 7:30 AM on February 7, 2023 [3 favorites]
Some people have issues with Lebron's personality or how he handled his initial Cleveland departure, or how business-focused he is, or [whatever]. And as a Celtics fan, I have been on the wrong end of a Lebron beat down and it's so unfun in how clinical he is when he's on his game. It is not like Dr J or Magic destroying you with poetry.
But those people are wrong and dumb. He's been a relatively model celebrity citizen and this is a huge achievement.
Unlike some, I think 'greatest' discussions are actually fun and I'd like to be educated better on where he fits in and arguments for him being the greatest. Eg, Reggie Miller, no slouch, would take Larry Joe in a hot second over Lebron. And Bird maybe (probably?) isn't even a top five player all-time.
Basketball is a really interesting sport for these discussions because unlike something like soccer (which has a lot of interdependency and emergent patterns), in basketball it can often come down to whether a given individual talent can overcome somewhat simple counter-strategies. (Hopefully that doesn't grind the gears of basketball tacticians too badly)
So yeah, good for Lebron. I hope he gets it in MIL and I hope he gets to play with his son, if that's what he wants. It's a great time to be a fan of basketball.
posted by Reasonably Everything Happens at 7:35 AM on February 7, 2023 [9 favorites]
But those people are wrong and dumb. He's been a relatively model celebrity citizen and this is a huge achievement.
Unlike some, I think 'greatest' discussions are actually fun and I'd like to be educated better on where he fits in and arguments for him being the greatest. Eg, Reggie Miller, no slouch, would take Larry Joe in a hot second over Lebron. And Bird maybe (probably?) isn't even a top five player all-time.
Basketball is a really interesting sport for these discussions because unlike something like soccer (which has a lot of interdependency and emergent patterns), in basketball it can often come down to whether a given individual talent can overcome somewhat simple counter-strategies. (Hopefully that doesn't grind the gears of basketball tacticians too badly)
So yeah, good for Lebron. I hope he gets it in MIL and I hope he gets to play with his son, if that's what he wants. It's a great time to be a fan of basketball.
posted by Reasonably Everything Happens at 7:35 AM on February 7, 2023 [9 favorites]
I’m not a big sports fan but seeing the Cavs win the NBA championship in 2016 was an unforgettable moment. I saw it on tv with my dad and other family members, who live in Akron. We were screaming. LeBron is a treasure and I still feel that joy whenever I think about it. I’ll be watching the Lakers tonight!
posted by waving at 7:56 AM on February 7, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by waving at 7:56 AM on February 7, 2023 [1 favorite]
Seeing the Cavs win the NBA championship in 2016 was an unforgettable moment.
This moment, specifically.
posted by box at 8:44 AM on February 7, 2023 [6 favorites]
This moment, specifically.
posted by box at 8:44 AM on February 7, 2023 [6 favorites]
I'm hoping it happens tonight vs the Thunder. The game seemingly got moved back from a 10:30 E.T. tip time to a 10:00 E.T. start time, presumably to let more people see it.
It is positively unreal that Lebron is likely to break this record. Stan Van Gundy had a good tweet about it yesterday:
That's nuts. Especially when you look at all-universe shooters like Steph Curry (turns 35 next month), and MVPs like Russell Westbrook (34 years old) and James Harden (33 years old). Lebron (38 years old) has 38,000 points. Who would you imagine is the closest to Lebron? Steph right? Nope, it's Harden, then Westbrook, then Steph.
Stephen Curry - 21,183
Russell Westbrook - 24,098
James Harden - 24,233
The only actually active player in the conversation is Kevin Durant (KD), and he's out hurt. He is also 34 years old, and has 26,684 points. Chris Paul is likely done after this season, as injuries have wound him down and you can see he's probably got a year left max, he has 21,404. Carmelo Anthony is 39 in May, without a team and unlikely to re-enter the league and do much, and he's the closest at 28,289.
The last two active players of note are DeMar DeRozan (33 Years old, out injured right now) with 21,164 points, and Damian Lillard, 32 with 18805 points.
By the time you scroll down the list to look for the next relevant active player, it's 28-year old MVP and Champion Giannis Antetokounmpo. Who has 15,706 points and is in his 10th season. So if he played 10 more seasons to get to where he was LeBron's age and kept the same output, he'd still be 5 seasons short.
And keep in mind...Lebron is still playing, and still looking solid!
It's unreal. The other thing to note if Lebron gets the all time scoring record is, he's also:
Top 4 all time in assists
Top 35 all time in rebounds
Top 10 all time in steals
Top 9 all time in 3-pointers made
And that is after being crowned an all time great as a teenager. He's not only lived up to the hype, he's not only surpassed it, he made the hype seem like it underrates him. It's absolutely wild. I'm so excited to hopefully watch this moment in history tonight. It's possible he rests tonight and does it against the Bucks, or rests tonight and then gets his usual 27 vs the Bucks and does it the next game. But this is something for the ages.
posted by cashman at 8:45 AM on February 7, 2023 [16 favorites]
It is positively unreal that Lebron is likely to break this record. Stan Van Gundy had a good tweet about it yesterday:
Let me try to put LeBron James imminent all-time NBA scoring record in perspective. There will very soon be only 6 men (Kareem, Malone, Jordan, Bryant, Nowitzki and Chamberlain) within 10,000 points of James. 10,000 points more than all but 6 players in history!
That's nuts. Especially when you look at all-universe shooters like Steph Curry (turns 35 next month), and MVPs like Russell Westbrook (34 years old) and James Harden (33 years old). Lebron (38 years old) has 38,000 points. Who would you imagine is the closest to Lebron? Steph right? Nope, it's Harden, then Westbrook, then Steph.
Stephen Curry - 21,183
Russell Westbrook - 24,098
James Harden - 24,233
The only actually active player in the conversation is Kevin Durant (KD), and he's out hurt. He is also 34 years old, and has 26,684 points. Chris Paul is likely done after this season, as injuries have wound him down and you can see he's probably got a year left max, he has 21,404. Carmelo Anthony is 39 in May, without a team and unlikely to re-enter the league and do much, and he's the closest at 28,289.
The last two active players of note are DeMar DeRozan (33 Years old, out injured right now) with 21,164 points, and Damian Lillard, 32 with 18805 points.
By the time you scroll down the list to look for the next relevant active player, it's 28-year old MVP and Champion Giannis Antetokounmpo. Who has 15,706 points and is in his 10th season. So if he played 10 more seasons to get to where he was LeBron's age and kept the same output, he'd still be 5 seasons short.
And keep in mind...Lebron is still playing, and still looking solid!
It's unreal. The other thing to note if Lebron gets the all time scoring record is, he's also:
Top 4 all time in assists
Top 35 all time in rebounds
Top 10 all time in steals
Top 9 all time in 3-pointers made
And that is after being crowned an all time great as a teenager. He's not only lived up to the hype, he's not only surpassed it, he made the hype seem like it underrates him. It's absolutely wild. I'm so excited to hopefully watch this moment in history tonight. It's possible he rests tonight and does it against the Bucks, or rests tonight and then gets his usual 27 vs the Bucks and does it the next game. But this is something for the ages.
posted by cashman at 8:45 AM on February 7, 2023 [16 favorites]
So, and I ask this as someone who doesn't really follow basketball, is that because LeBron was doing a lot more heavy lifting and just outplayed the opposing defense despite them knowing he was probably going to outscore everybody else on his team? I mean I get the impression that (for example) while we're very proud of Giannis here in Milwaukee, he has a couple of other guys on the offense with him to change things up and keep the defense on their toes.
posted by Kyol at 9:07 AM on February 7, 2023
posted by Kyol at 9:07 AM on February 7, 2023
My sister lives in the area where LeBron’s Ohio house is. Years ago she went into the nearby Walmart to get baby diapers. Who do you think she ran into in the diaper aisle and had a chat with about baby diapers?
posted by waving at 9:09 AM on February 7, 2023 [8 favorites]
posted by waving at 9:09 AM on February 7, 2023 [8 favorites]
My favorite stat about LeBron is that he was the fastest player to 1,000 points...
...and 2,000 points
...and 3,000 points
...and 4,000 points
...and 5,000 points
...and 6,000 points
...and 7,000 points
...and 8,000 points
...and 9,000 points
...and 10,000 points
...and 11,000 points
...and 12,000 points
...and 13,000 points
...and 14,000 points
...and 15,000 points
...and 16,000 points
...and 17,000 points
...and 18,000 points
...and 19,000 points
...and 20,000 points
...and 21,000 points
...and 22,000 points
...and 23,000 points
...and 24,000 points
...and 25,000 points
...and 26,000 points
...and 27,000 points
...and 28,000 points
...and 29,000 points
...and 30,000 points
...and 31,000 points
...and 32,000 points
...and 33,000 points
...and 34,000 points
...and 35,000 points
...and 36,000 points
...and 37,000 points
...and 38,000 points
He has just been consistently great for his whole career. Respect.
posted by AgentRocket at 9:23 AM on February 7, 2023 [9 favorites]
...and 2,000 points
...and 3,000 points
...and 4,000 points
...and 5,000 points
...and 6,000 points
...and 7,000 points
...and 8,000 points
...and 9,000 points
...and 10,000 points
...and 11,000 points
...and 12,000 points
...and 13,000 points
...and 14,000 points
...and 15,000 points
...and 16,000 points
...and 17,000 points
...and 18,000 points
...and 19,000 points
...and 20,000 points
...and 21,000 points
...and 22,000 points
...and 23,000 points
...and 24,000 points
...and 25,000 points
...and 26,000 points
...and 27,000 points
...and 28,000 points
...and 29,000 points
...and 30,000 points
...and 31,000 points
...and 32,000 points
...and 33,000 points
...and 34,000 points
...and 35,000 points
...and 36,000 points
...and 37,000 points
...and 38,000 points
He has just been consistently great for his whole career. Respect.
posted by AgentRocket at 9:23 AM on February 7, 2023 [9 favorites]
Whenever I think about LeBron, I remember the opening sentences of this Jon Bois article from 10 years ago: "LeBron James is my favorite basketball player because he's the best basketball player. That is the only reason, and it feels good."
posted by dismas at 9:30 AM on February 7, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by dismas at 9:30 AM on February 7, 2023 [4 favorites]
My father used to tell me that Kareem's record was unbreakable. Unsurprisingly he's been grumpy about Lebron's existence for about 20 years.
posted by Glibpaxman at 9:33 AM on February 7, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by Glibpaxman at 9:33 AM on February 7, 2023 [2 favorites]
My favorite stat about LeBron is that he was the fastest player to 1,000 points... and 38,000 points
I don't know much about basketball but this feels like my son's often quoted victory of being older than his younger sister for eight years running.
posted by grog at 9:37 AM on February 7, 2023 [9 favorites]
I don't know much about basketball but this feels like my son's often quoted victory of being older than his younger sister for eight years running.
posted by grog at 9:37 AM on February 7, 2023 [9 favorites]
He's like the Michael Jordan of basketball.
posted by spikeleemajortomdickandharryconnickjrmints at 9:38 AM on February 7, 2023 [37 favorites]
posted by spikeleemajortomdickandharryconnickjrmints at 9:38 AM on February 7, 2023 [37 favorites]
So, and I ask this as someone who doesn't really follow basketball, is that because LeBron was doing a lot more heavy lifting and just outplayed the opposing defense despite them knowing he was probably going to outscore everybody else on his team?
Sort of yes, at least at the beginning of his career. He was the team. He's also of the newer generation of the NBA, where like the NFL, the offense has been given priority. That's also why many of the stats listed in The Ringer article that will be hard to surpass are on the defensive side.
I'd also say that the training of these guys is just better, and the overall quality of players is just better - they are far better shooters than the past. And I think that will continue into the future - there will be a guy better than Lebron, even if he's not in the league yet, or maybe still in diapers.
posted by The_Vegetables at 9:40 AM on February 7, 2023
Sort of yes, at least at the beginning of his career. He was the team. He's also of the newer generation of the NBA, where like the NFL, the offense has been given priority. That's also why many of the stats listed in The Ringer article that will be hard to surpass are on the defensive side.
I'd also say that the training of these guys is just better, and the overall quality of players is just better - they are far better shooters than the past. And I think that will continue into the future - there will be a guy better than Lebron, even if he's not in the league yet, or maybe still in diapers.
posted by The_Vegetables at 9:40 AM on February 7, 2023
For some reason, even though I don't particularly like watching basketball, I love learning about the greats. I've watched so many documentaries and highlight reels about Kareem and Kobe and Bird and Jordan and so on. Even not watching the sport often I've loved seeing LeBron's rise to that tier. And he seems like a good dude who used the money he made being a great player to help the community he came from. We need more people like that.
posted by downtohisturtles at 9:41 AM on February 7, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by downtohisturtles at 9:41 AM on February 7, 2023 [2 favorites]
Good for him! He just seems like such a swell guy.
posted by obfuscation at 9:49 AM on February 7, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by obfuscation at 9:49 AM on February 7, 2023 [1 favorite]
So now and forever when I read/hear the word "courtside" I will think of this recent Jorts the Cat tweet:
"At a basketball game are curbside seats really so good? Aren’t afraid you will get bonked in the nose"
posted by spamandkimchi at 9:51 AM on February 7, 2023 [5 favorites]
"At a basketball game are curbside seats really so good? Aren’t afraid you will get bonked in the nose"
posted by spamandkimchi at 9:51 AM on February 7, 2023 [5 favorites]
In sports GOAT debates, the camps can get pretty venomous. In tennis, the animus between the Federer-Nadal-Djokovic people has been intolerable, but it does seem to be fading. Their admiration for each other probably plays a part.
Among basketball fans, I've found most fans are either LeBron people or Kobe people, and whoever they pick, they are dedicated haters of the other.
That's a bit strong for my taste, but I'm firmly in the former camp, for reasons of both basketball quality and character quality. Basketball-wise, LeBron can do everything Kobe ever did, and better.
People love to say LeBron would have suffered in earlier, rougher eras. Please. I watched the NBA throughout the Eighties and Nineties. He would have made a meal of them.
Also, LeBron made the most incredible basketball play of this century: The Block. The only real competitor is Vince Carter jumping over a 7'2" opponent to dunk it in the Olympics.
posted by Caxton1476 at 9:54 AM on February 7, 2023 [1 favorite]
Among basketball fans, I've found most fans are either LeBron people or Kobe people, and whoever they pick, they are dedicated haters of the other.
That's a bit strong for my taste, but I'm firmly in the former camp, for reasons of both basketball quality and character quality. Basketball-wise, LeBron can do everything Kobe ever did, and better.
People love to say LeBron would have suffered in earlier, rougher eras. Please. I watched the NBA throughout the Eighties and Nineties. He would have made a meal of them.
Also, LeBron made the most incredible basketball play of this century: The Block. The only real competitor is Vince Carter jumping over a 7'2" opponent to dunk it in the Olympics.
posted by Caxton1476 at 9:54 AM on February 7, 2023 [1 favorite]
I don't know much about basketball but this feels like my son's often quoted victory of being older than his younger sister for eight years running.
I get that, for sure, but to put it in context there have been a whole bunch of NBA megastars who have had either prolific but shorter careers or stretches of brilliance that they couldn't sustain (bc of age or injury or whatever).
LeBron did have the benefit of coming straight out of high school, but so did HOF players like Kobe Bryant and Tracy McGrady and Kevin Garnett. And there are a ton of "one and done" college players like Kevin Durant, Kyrie Irving, Derrick Rose, and Carmelo Anthony. That he got out ahead and stayed there - never having a sustained down period - is super impressive.
(Compare Henry Aaron, who was the all-time HR leader but was not the fastest to 100, or 200, or 300, or 400, or 500, or 600, or even 700)
posted by AgentRocket at 9:55 AM on February 7, 2023 [2 favorites]
I get that, for sure, but to put it in context there have been a whole bunch of NBA megastars who have had either prolific but shorter careers or stretches of brilliance that they couldn't sustain (bc of age or injury or whatever).
LeBron did have the benefit of coming straight out of high school, but so did HOF players like Kobe Bryant and Tracy McGrady and Kevin Garnett. And there are a ton of "one and done" college players like Kevin Durant, Kyrie Irving, Derrick Rose, and Carmelo Anthony. That he got out ahead and stayed there - never having a sustained down period - is super impressive.
(Compare Henry Aaron, who was the all-time HR leader but was not the fastest to 100, or 200, or 300, or 400, or 500, or 600, or even 700)
posted by AgentRocket at 9:55 AM on February 7, 2023 [2 favorites]
Among basketball fans, I've found most fans are either LeBron people or Kobe people
I'm sure Kobe people exist, but it's really more LeBron vs Jordan.
posted by LionIndex at 10:09 AM on February 7, 2023 [8 favorites]
I'm sure Kobe people exist, but it's really more LeBron vs Jordan.
posted by LionIndex at 10:09 AM on February 7, 2023 [8 favorites]
People love to say LeBron would have suffered in earlier, rougher eras.
I love this line of reasoning. LeBron, one of the sturdiest, least-injury prone superstars of all time, is built like a defensive end, only taller. He's like if Karl Malone and Ron Artest got stuck in the transporter from The Fly. If he had played in the rough-and-tumble 70s he'd still be the GOAT, but he'd also be famous for hip-checking Bill Laimbeer in to the third row during the Eastern Conference Finals. Like, that would be the clip they'd show to demonstrate how tough the game used to be: LeBron, a titan of a man and a certified basketball genius with the literal perfect basketball body, using his momentum to toss Bill Laimbeer in to the stands like a fucking dog toy. People are insane.
posted by saladin at 10:43 AM on February 7, 2023 [32 favorites]
I love this line of reasoning. LeBron, one of the sturdiest, least-injury prone superstars of all time, is built like a defensive end, only taller. He's like if Karl Malone and Ron Artest got stuck in the transporter from The Fly. If he had played in the rough-and-tumble 70s he'd still be the GOAT, but he'd also be famous for hip-checking Bill Laimbeer in to the third row during the Eastern Conference Finals. Like, that would be the clip they'd show to demonstrate how tough the game used to be: LeBron, a titan of a man and a certified basketball genius with the literal perfect basketball body, using his momentum to toss Bill Laimbeer in to the stands like a fucking dog toy. People are insane.
posted by saladin at 10:43 AM on February 7, 2023 [32 favorites]
And genuinely: congrats to LeBron. A god-tier athlete whose one weakness is that he's kind-hearted and well-adjusted enough that he hasn't destroyed his personal life in pursuit of winning. He's made the game so fun to watch for so long, we're all lucky to be alive in the LeBron era.
posted by saladin at 10:44 AM on February 7, 2023 [8 favorites]
posted by saladin at 10:44 AM on February 7, 2023 [8 favorites]
I have a lot of respect for Lebron and his achievements but I have to confess I have never really been a fan because I've always felt he was just too physically dominant in a Wilt Chamberlin kind of way. I tend to stan for players that overcome something or struggle to achieve rather than players who just fulfill their potential. Lebron has always struck me as kind of the answer to the question "What if Shaq but motivated to improve and properly condition?" even when he was not quite as large as Shaq because somehow he still makes other players on the court, even taller ones, seem physically like boys playing against a man.
posted by srboisvert at 10:51 AM on February 7, 2023
posted by srboisvert at 10:51 AM on February 7, 2023
People love to say LeBron would have suffered in earlier, rougher eras. Please. I watched the NBA throughout the Eighties and Nineties. He would have made a meal of them.
I believe that would depend on whether his team traded for Charles Oakley.
posted by srboisvert at 10:57 AM on February 7, 2023 [2 favorites]
I believe that would depend on whether his team traded for Charles Oakley.
posted by srboisvert at 10:57 AM on February 7, 2023 [2 favorites]
I have a lot of respect for Lebron and his achievements but I have to confess I have never really been a fan because I've always felt he was just too physically dominant in a Wilt Chamberlin kind of way.
Years ago I was working for a film festival that was premiering More Than A Game. An Ohioan college student had gotten the hot tip about how dominant the basketball team at Akron’s St. Vincent-St. Mary High School was when LeBron was a senior there, so he made a documentary following LeBron and four other starting members through their senior year and their diverging paths after James got recruited to the NBA straight out of high school.
It's on Amazon Prime if you want to see it, but one thing I recall is that in team photos, LeBron is already a full head taller than his teammates. He had basically reached his full height at the age of 16.
posted by The Pluto Gangsta at 11:14 AM on February 7, 2023 [3 favorites]
Years ago I was working for a film festival that was premiering More Than A Game. An Ohioan college student had gotten the hot tip about how dominant the basketball team at Akron’s St. Vincent-St. Mary High School was when LeBron was a senior there, so he made a documentary following LeBron and four other starting members through their senior year and their diverging paths after James got recruited to the NBA straight out of high school.
It's on Amazon Prime if you want to see it, but one thing I recall is that in team photos, LeBron is already a full head taller than his teammates. He had basically reached his full height at the age of 16.
posted by The Pluto Gangsta at 11:14 AM on February 7, 2023 [3 favorites]
He's like the Michael Jordan of basketball.
I'm sure Kobe people exist, but it's really more LeBron vs Jordan.
Jordan could have been the LeBron of basketball!
LeBron did have the benefit of coming straight out of high school…
I wonder why this isn’t mentioned more? That extra year definitely added to his numbers and also gave him pro-level experience and avoided the risk of injury. Definitely think he is great, but for now there may be other great players out there who are not allowed to follow the same path he did. And that seems wrong.
posted by TedW at 11:21 AM on February 7, 2023
I'm sure Kobe people exist, but it's really more LeBron vs Jordan.
Jordan could have been the LeBron of basketball!
LeBron did have the benefit of coming straight out of high school…
I wonder why this isn’t mentioned more? That extra year definitely added to his numbers and also gave him pro-level experience and avoided the risk of injury. Definitely think he is great, but for now there may be other great players out there who are not allowed to follow the same path he did. And that seems wrong.
posted by TedW at 11:21 AM on February 7, 2023
Sure, sure... Lebron will get all the points, is a physically dominant player and certainly one of the greatest to play the game, but....
Can he out trash talk Larry Bird? :)
Put me in the crowd that was completely off put by the whole "Decision" thing, but I've definitely come around to admitting that he's an amazing player.
posted by drewbage1847 at 11:23 AM on February 7, 2023 [5 favorites]
Can he out trash talk Larry Bird? :)
Put me in the crowd that was completely off put by the whole "Decision" thing, but I've definitely come around to admitting that he's an amazing player.
posted by drewbage1847 at 11:23 AM on February 7, 2023 [5 favorites]
Thursday's Bucks@Lakers game is on TNT. Saturday's Lakers@Warriors game is on ABC. NBATV shows a few reruns of games but as best I can tell there's no way of knowing ahead of time what they'll be.
posted by neuron at 11:28 AM on February 7, 2023
posted by neuron at 11:28 AM on February 7, 2023
I know if marks me as an extreme homer, and no disrespect to Lebron, but Tim Duncan will always be the GOAT to me.
I did have the fortune of seeing the Lebron Cavs play in San Antonio back in the late aughts, and while the Spurs won that night, it was still a hell of a fun game. He does seem like a decent guy off the court too. He's doing good things with at least some of his money, and I appreciate that.
posted by Devils Rancher at 11:38 AM on February 7, 2023
I did have the fortune of seeing the Lebron Cavs play in San Antonio back in the late aughts, and while the Spurs won that night, it was still a hell of a fun game. He does seem like a decent guy off the court too. He's doing good things with at least some of his money, and I appreciate that.
posted by Devils Rancher at 11:38 AM on February 7, 2023
Put me in the crowd that was completely off put by the whole "Decision" thing, but I've definitely come around to admitting that he's an amazing player.
I was too. Lebron and I are the same age, though (which marks the beginning and the end of our physical similarities), and over the past 13 years I've come around to realizing: if you had given 26-year-old-me tens of millions of dollars, and the media had proclaimed loudly that I was the greatest player since Jordan, and then I'd been a free agent with no one close to me to keep my ego in check, and the opportunity had presented itself: yup, I also would have had ESPN host an ill-advised broadcast special to announce where I was going. Such is the wont of 26-year-old guys, especially the ones playing on the biggest stage. Dude has certainly turned it around in the ensuing years. Good for him.
posted by Mayor West at 11:53 AM on February 7, 2023 [4 favorites]
I was too. Lebron and I are the same age, though (which marks the beginning and the end of our physical similarities), and over the past 13 years I've come around to realizing: if you had given 26-year-old-me tens of millions of dollars, and the media had proclaimed loudly that I was the greatest player since Jordan, and then I'd been a free agent with no one close to me to keep my ego in check, and the opportunity had presented itself: yup, I also would have had ESPN host an ill-advised broadcast special to announce where I was going. Such is the wont of 26-year-old guys, especially the ones playing on the biggest stage. Dude has certainly turned it around in the ensuing years. Good for him.
posted by Mayor West at 11:53 AM on February 7, 2023 [4 favorites]
Ignorant non Basketball fan question to follow, who is better, Jordan or James?
posted by Keith Talent at 11:56 AM on February 7, 2023
posted by Keith Talent at 11:56 AM on February 7, 2023
Put me in the crowd that was completely off put by the whole "Decision" thing, but I've definitely come around to admitting that he's an amazing player.
I was too but I've come around to seeing at as a group of very successful black men taking control of their lives in a sport and world that openly treats them like chattel (like all sports do with rookies). I'm not a fan of the reality TV drama around it (but I'm an old and didn't come of age immersed in that reality TV culture) but I do support anything that ends the notion of "dibs" on human beings and apparently The Decision had a big influence on many other players to come who choose freedom for their first non-rookie contract.
posted by srboisvert at 12:00 PM on February 7, 2023 [8 favorites]
I was too but I've come around to seeing at as a group of very successful black men taking control of their lives in a sport and world that openly treats them like chattel (like all sports do with rookies). I'm not a fan of the reality TV drama around it (but I'm an old and didn't come of age immersed in that reality TV culture) but I do support anything that ends the notion of "dibs" on human beings and apparently The Decision had a big influence on many other players to come who choose freedom for their first non-rookie contract.
posted by srboisvert at 12:00 PM on February 7, 2023 [8 favorites]
Re: the Kobe-LeBron-Jordan thing...
I'm sure Kobe people exist, but it's really more LeBron vs Jordan.
For players with substantial overlap in their careers, and certainly among people too young to have watched Jordan in his prime, the Kobe v. Lebron thing is the main beef. Both sides will usually concede the debate is generational, and that it's essentially impossible to dethrone Jordan. The only post-merger players who are in Jordan's league for overall impact on the game are Magic and Bird. (Shaq might have been, and at his peak was the most unstoppable player ever not named Bill or Wilt, but that's a whole 'nother thread.)
It's clear from 5 minutes observation that LeBron is not an "heir to Jordan" in his skill set and playing style, while Kobe very explicitly patterned his game after MJ.
posted by Caxton1476 at 12:01 PM on February 7, 2023 [1 favorite]
I'm sure Kobe people exist, but it's really more LeBron vs Jordan.
For players with substantial overlap in their careers, and certainly among people too young to have watched Jordan in his prime, the Kobe v. Lebron thing is the main beef. Both sides will usually concede the debate is generational, and that it's essentially impossible to dethrone Jordan. The only post-merger players who are in Jordan's league for overall impact on the game are Magic and Bird. (Shaq might have been, and at his peak was the most unstoppable player ever not named Bill or Wilt, but that's a whole 'nother thread.)
It's clear from 5 minutes observation that LeBron is not an "heir to Jordan" in his skill set and playing style, while Kobe very explicitly patterned his game after MJ.
posted by Caxton1476 at 12:01 PM on February 7, 2023 [1 favorite]
Tonight's game is on TNT as well I believe. My neighbor just happened to get tickets for this game when the season started as part of a work thing, so you can imagine he's pretty hyped up to see history made.
Worth noting that LeBron is absolutely detested by conservatives and Trumpers, despite the fact that he's the embodiment of the "American Dream", a devoted father and husband, and scandal free. Can't imagine what it is they don't like about him!
posted by chaz at 12:02 PM on February 7, 2023 [6 favorites]
Worth noting that LeBron is absolutely detested by conservatives and Trumpers, despite the fact that he's the embodiment of the "American Dream", a devoted father and husband, and scandal free. Can't imagine what it is they don't like about him!
posted by chaz at 12:02 PM on February 7, 2023 [6 favorites]
Ignorant non Basketball fan question to follow, who is better, Jordan or James
Jordan is a better champion because he also forced his teammates to rise with him. James is a better individual talent but he never really seemed to have inspired/tormented his teammates into being better.
posted by srboisvert at 12:05 PM on February 7, 2023 [1 favorite]
Jordan is a better champion because he also forced his teammates to rise with him. James is a better individual talent but he never really seemed to have inspired/tormented his teammates into being better.
posted by srboisvert at 12:05 PM on February 7, 2023 [1 favorite]
Okay final comment: the Iguodala block is rightly remembered as maybe the most consequential play of the entire series, and the one that literally epitomizes the insane come-from-behind story of the Cav's eventual victory, but to me the most devastating LeBron block from that series was his block on Steph Curry's layup attempt late in game 6. It had the quality of an adult swatting down a mouthy child's shot. Humiliating doesn't even begin to describe it. I watched every game of the Finals that year and it was in that moment that I first began to believe that the Cavs were actually maybe just maybe going to pull it out.
posted by saladin at 12:10 PM on February 7, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by saladin at 12:10 PM on February 7, 2023 [3 favorites]
It's amazing that someone who pretty much from high school was projected to be the best ever player in fact became the best ever player. There are too many ways it couldn't have panned out, their game not translating to the NBA, injuries, being stuck on bad teams, getting distracted by off-court issues, etc. but he's managed to stay healthy, stay focused, and stay in control of his sporting destiny. I hope we'll see more players like him because it is always a treat to be able to see great players play and I hope that I'll get to see whoever the next LeBron is and that there will be spirited debates about them too.
The last 20 years has been a treat for many sports fans: LeBron James in the NBA, Federer-Nadal-Djokovic in tennis, Messi and Ronaldo in soccer, Ovechkin in the NHL, Tom Brady in the NFL, and I don't really follow baseball beyond when the Blue Jays are in the playoffs but Ohtani looks like he might but together some kind of MLB career too.
posted by any portmanteau in a storm at 12:18 PM on February 7, 2023 [1 favorite]
The last 20 years has been a treat for many sports fans: LeBron James in the NBA, Federer-Nadal-Djokovic in tennis, Messi and Ronaldo in soccer, Ovechkin in the NHL, Tom Brady in the NFL, and I don't really follow baseball beyond when the Blue Jays are in the playoffs but Ohtani looks like he might but together some kind of MLB career too.
posted by any portmanteau in a storm at 12:18 PM on February 7, 2023 [1 favorite]
But what about Space Jam 2?
posted by SystematicAbuse at 12:27 PM on February 7, 2023
posted by SystematicAbuse at 12:27 PM on February 7, 2023
He has just been consistently great for his whole career. Respect.
Taking a look at the NBA's all time scoring list, there are 4695 players that they've got numbers for.
The difference between LeBron's current scoring totals and the Elvin Hayes, one step out of the top ten, is 10943 points. That is slightly more than Dan Majerle, the 334th most prolific scorer of all time, scored in his career.
4361 professional basketball players, 93% of them, went their whole careers, scoring fewer points than the gap between LeBron James and anyone outside the top ten.
That is bonkers
posted by mhoye at 12:28 PM on February 7, 2023 [3 favorites]
Taking a look at the NBA's all time scoring list, there are 4695 players that they've got numbers for.
The difference between LeBron's current scoring totals and the Elvin Hayes, one step out of the top ten, is 10943 points. That is slightly more than Dan Majerle, the 334th most prolific scorer of all time, scored in his career.
4361 professional basketball players, 93% of them, went their whole careers, scoring fewer points than the gap between LeBron James and anyone outside the top ten.
That is bonkers
posted by mhoye at 12:28 PM on February 7, 2023 [3 favorites]
For players with substantial overlap in their careers, and certainly among people too young to have watched Jordan in his prime, the Kobe v. Lebron thing is the main beef. Both sides will usually concede the debate is generational, and that it's essentially impossible to dethrone Jordan.
I kinda feel like the only people who believe Kobe to be at the very top of the list with MJ and LeBron are part of a specific age cohort. But of course that’s inclusive of a lot of actual pro players of the last couple generations.
I guess that’s a little bit true of everybody’s evaluation of players ever though. Kobe has just also become one of those “eye test” vs. “play style disfavored by current analysis” cases.
posted by atoxyl at 12:39 PM on February 7, 2023
I kinda feel like the only people who believe Kobe to be at the very top of the list with MJ and LeBron are part of a specific age cohort. But of course that’s inclusive of a lot of actual pro players of the last couple generations.
I guess that’s a little bit true of everybody’s evaluation of players ever though. Kobe has just also become one of those “eye test” vs. “play style disfavored by current analysis” cases.
posted by atoxyl at 12:39 PM on February 7, 2023
Ignorant non Basketball fan question to follow, who is better, Jordan or James
Until and unless someone else comes along, it'll be the basketball question.
A few years ago I would've said Jordan was the GOAT over LeBron, and I probably still think that peak Jordan (game 6, 1998 Finals) might've been better than peak James (game 7, 2016).
Jordan went out there to win championships, and LeBron went out there to be the best basketball player ever. They were both very, very successful.
The question of who's the basketball GOAT depends on what you're measuring, where your priorities are, even how you're feeling that day. Between Jordan and LeBron, I don't think there's a wrong answer.
(Larry Bird, however, is a wrong answer.)
posted by box at 12:45 PM on February 7, 2023 [11 favorites]
Until and unless someone else comes along, it'll be the basketball question.
A few years ago I would've said Jordan was the GOAT over LeBron, and I probably still think that peak Jordan (game 6, 1998 Finals) might've been better than peak James (game 7, 2016).
Jordan went out there to win championships, and LeBron went out there to be the best basketball player ever. They were both very, very successful.
The question of who's the basketball GOAT depends on what you're measuring, where your priorities are, even how you're feeling that day. Between Jordan and LeBron, I don't think there's a wrong answer.
(Larry Bird, however, is a wrong answer.)
posted by box at 12:45 PM on February 7, 2023 [11 favorites]
The question of who's the basketball GOAT depends on what you're measuring, where your priorities are, even how you're feeling that day.
Michael Jordan did so well at basketball, he got bored of it. Like quit at the prime of his career to play minor league baseball. Age 30 if I'm doing the math right. Lebron is currently 38. Even if you believe the gambling suspension rumors, that means he still liked other things more than basketball. He also won a college title.
So IMO it's not even close. It's Jordan. When Lebron wins 3 titles in row and quits to golf or whatever, then it becomes a debate.
posted by The_Vegetables at 12:57 PM on February 7, 2023 [3 favorites]
Michael Jordan did so well at basketball, he got bored of it. Like quit at the prime of his career to play minor league baseball. Age 30 if I'm doing the math right. Lebron is currently 38. Even if you believe the gambling suspension rumors, that means he still liked other things more than basketball. He also won a college title.
So IMO it's not even close. It's Jordan. When Lebron wins 3 titles in row and quits to golf or whatever, then it becomes a debate.
posted by The_Vegetables at 12:57 PM on February 7, 2023 [3 favorites]
The Jordan vs LeBron debate can't be argued with stats. If you lived through the Jordan era you could feel that he dominated the league to an extent that LeBron just hasn't. LeBron is statistically a better player. He's stronger, bigger, and faster. He shoots 3 pointers better. He passes better. You can easily argue that he is a better teammate. He has had an immeasurable impact on the league, in how business is conducted, trades and free agency work, and how players now insert themselves into all those discussions. But at no point did the entire league dread playing him. No one ever feared making a random comment in an interview about how he was gonna "shut him down" on defense cause he would take it personally and drop 50 points on you the next game. Michael Jordan instilled fear and respect on an entire league of professional players. The best of the best of the best. For years!
There is no comparison. Sorry.
posted by Glibpaxman at 1:32 PM on February 7, 2023 [10 favorites]
There is no comparison. Sorry.
posted by Glibpaxman at 1:32 PM on February 7, 2023 [10 favorites]
One of the things that struck me, looking at the chart in the first link of the post is while Jordan's numbers are not at the very top of that chart, his minutes played are considerably fewer than his cohorts, suggesting he did more in the minutes he played than his contemporaries. But all of this is, as the adage goes, quibbling about whether the number of brushstrokes in Starry Night matters when considering whether the painting is a masterpiece.
posted by maxwelton at 2:20 PM on February 7, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by maxwelton at 2:20 PM on February 7, 2023 [1 favorite]
I lived through the Jordan era. I saw Michael Jordan play live. Not on television, but in person. Michael Jordan has been the greatest player ever to me for about 30 years now. MJ inspired me to dunk. I have tons of his shoes. I know his quotes, his videos, I have Come Fly With Me and Airtime on VHS. And I've been playing basketball since the 1980s. Playing indoors. Playing outdoors. Playing in the Midwest, the Northeast, the Pac NW, the South, the East. Playing on high school floors, college floors, carpeted basketball courts, blacktops, playing with teenagers and 50-year-olds, with pros and amateurs, places you have to pay and places where my way was paid for me. I still play. I still run full court. OG can still ball.
The fact that there is even a debate that Lebron could BE the greatest ever, is an incredible testament to Lebron James as a basketball player. Nobody thought anyone would ever truly be debatable versus Mike. MJ was too dominant, too maniacal, too successful. But when Lebron breaks that record tonight, and is the all time leader in scoring, combined with all the other talents and skills he has as a basketball player, it absolutely is a debate about who is the greatest basketball player of all time.
When Lebron retires and does so for good, that'll be when the real "The Decision" will come. But additionally, I have the trump card that I think a lot of people haven't really considered. I know one way that it will be beyond debate that Lebron has become the greatest of all time. When Michael Jordan says it. Everybody who knows Michael Jordan knows that there is no way in hell that Michael Jordan will concede anything to anyone. He was basically tormented by his siblings and developed essentially a personality issue where he absolutely has to win at everything. Like that Gary Oldman gif - Everything.
If in 3 or 4 years Lebron retires with like 40,000 points and more insane moments of greatness and Michael is asked and says Lebron is the greatest, that will one hundred percent end the debate. Even now someone is reading this and thinking "there's no way in hell Jordan would ever say that". Exactly. So if or when it happens, that's when the debate ends.
posted by cashman at 2:27 PM on February 7, 2023 [11 favorites]
The fact that there is even a debate that Lebron could BE the greatest ever, is an incredible testament to Lebron James as a basketball player. Nobody thought anyone would ever truly be debatable versus Mike. MJ was too dominant, too maniacal, too successful. But when Lebron breaks that record tonight, and is the all time leader in scoring, combined with all the other talents and skills he has as a basketball player, it absolutely is a debate about who is the greatest basketball player of all time.
When Lebron retires and does so for good, that'll be when the real "The Decision" will come. But additionally, I have the trump card that I think a lot of people haven't really considered. I know one way that it will be beyond debate that Lebron has become the greatest of all time. When Michael Jordan says it. Everybody who knows Michael Jordan knows that there is no way in hell that Michael Jordan will concede anything to anyone. He was basically tormented by his siblings and developed essentially a personality issue where he absolutely has to win at everything. Like that Gary Oldman gif - Everything.
If in 3 or 4 years Lebron retires with like 40,000 points and more insane moments of greatness and Michael is asked and says Lebron is the greatest, that will one hundred percent end the debate. Even now someone is reading this and thinking "there's no way in hell Jordan would ever say that". Exactly. So if or when it happens, that's when the debate ends.
posted by cashman at 2:27 PM on February 7, 2023 [11 favorites]
Jordan's retirement to play baseball is now widely attributed to a gambling scandal that was never quite allowed to break the surface, but which NBA brass had detailed and certain knowledge of.
I’ve loved LeBron except when he played for the Heat; then I merely liked him a lot.
But I also think the NBA virtually handed him the title in Cleveland when they suspended Draymond Green for the 5th game of the Championship series. Golden State was up 3-1 at the time, and I don’t think any team had previously come back from a 3-1 deficit to win the title.
All was forgiven when he told people not to vote for Trump, however, which was a display of a kind of courage we never saw from Jordan, and for the lack of which Jordan has been criticized in many quarters.
posted by jamjam at 2:34 PM on February 7, 2023 [4 favorites]
I’ve loved LeBron except when he played for the Heat; then I merely liked him a lot.
But I also think the NBA virtually handed him the title in Cleveland when they suspended Draymond Green for the 5th game of the Championship series. Golden State was up 3-1 at the time, and I don’t think any team had previously come back from a 3-1 deficit to win the title.
All was forgiven when he told people not to vote for Trump, however, which was a display of a kind of courage we never saw from Jordan, and for the lack of which Jordan has been criticized in many quarters.
posted by jamjam at 2:34 PM on February 7, 2023 [4 favorites]
Jordan's retirement to play baseball is now widely attributed to a gambling scandal that was never quite allowed to break the surface, but which NBA brass had detailed and certain knowledge of.
That's a theory because instead of resting, he stayed up all night gambling during the NBA Finals he was participating in. That's dominant.
posted by The_Vegetables at 2:44 PM on February 7, 2023
That's a theory because instead of resting, he stayed up all night gambling during the NBA Finals he was participating in. That's dominant.
posted by The_Vegetables at 2:44 PM on February 7, 2023
Kareem won the NYC High School title, 3 consecutive NCAA titles, 6 NBA titles on two different teams, and was always the most dominant player on any court he ever stepped on. To me, he's the GOAT of the sport of basketball.
Jordan was the best the NBA has ever seen, the most competitive warrior on the court ever. I think everyone would take prime Jordan as first pick in any basketball draft ever. Put him on your team, and you have the best chance to win.
LeBron is a unique athlete in so many ways, surely the NBA has never seen a player who is the best scorer and perhaps the best passer of all time. His all around game is leagues ahead of any other person who's ever played. Physically, he's has no peer, and he is still a top 10 player at age 38! He willed Cleveland, of all places, to a title. I am positive Jordan could not have done that, nor would he have wanted to.
I'm comfortable with saying any of those 3 are the greatest.
posted by chaz at 3:00 PM on February 7, 2023 [6 favorites]
Jordan was the best the NBA has ever seen, the most competitive warrior on the court ever. I think everyone would take prime Jordan as first pick in any basketball draft ever. Put him on your team, and you have the best chance to win.
LeBron is a unique athlete in so many ways, surely the NBA has never seen a player who is the best scorer and perhaps the best passer of all time. His all around game is leagues ahead of any other person who's ever played. Physically, he's has no peer, and he is still a top 10 player at age 38! He willed Cleveland, of all places, to a title. I am positive Jordan could not have done that, nor would he have wanted to.
I'm comfortable with saying any of those 3 are the greatest.
posted by chaz at 3:00 PM on February 7, 2023 [6 favorites]
Jordan's retirement to play baseball is now widely attributed to a gambling scandal that was never quite allowed to break the surface, but which NBA brass had detailed and certain knowledge of.
“Widely attributed” in as much as its common and fun idea to sling bullshit about. The main weaknesses of this theory are that it has zero evidence and makes absolutely no sense. This scandal that “never quite broke the surface” has actually never broken the surface, in that no one has ever offered any direct evidence for it in 29 years, or offered any coherent explanation of how the suspension is supposed to have worked. Either it was supposed to be for life but they changed their mind, or they intended it to be a 1.75 year ban the whole time, which honestly makes even less sense.
posted by skewed at 3:17 PM on February 7, 2023 [1 favorite]
“Widely attributed” in as much as its common and fun idea to sling bullshit about. The main weaknesses of this theory are that it has zero evidence and makes absolutely no sense. This scandal that “never quite broke the surface” has actually never broken the surface, in that no one has ever offered any direct evidence for it in 29 years, or offered any coherent explanation of how the suspension is supposed to have worked. Either it was supposed to be for life but they changed their mind, or they intended it to be a 1.75 year ban the whole time, which honestly makes even less sense.
posted by skewed at 3:17 PM on February 7, 2023 [1 favorite]
dominated the league to an extent that LeBron just hasn't. LeBron is statistically a better player...But at no point did the entire league dread playing him...Michael Jordan instilled fear and respect on an entire league of professional players. The best of the best of the best. For years!
This is it for me too. It's about dominance and winning. Longevity is a nice aspect, but starting early, being not the best, but just really good and ending late is not enough.
Also, statistically MJ still has more points per game. Maybe advanced stats give it to Lebron, but Lebron is also doing it in an era where scoring is up 10-15% over when Jordan was winning.
Like I said above, it's an amazing achievement, it's a good debate, but I'm not anywhere near convinced of Lebron as goat.
posted by Reasonably Everything Happens at 3:41 PM on February 7, 2023
This is it for me too. It's about dominance and winning. Longevity is a nice aspect, but starting early, being not the best, but just really good and ending late is not enough.
Also, statistically MJ still has more points per game. Maybe advanced stats give it to Lebron, but Lebron is also doing it in an era where scoring is up 10-15% over when Jordan was winning.
Like I said above, it's an amazing achievement, it's a good debate, but I'm not anywhere near convinced of Lebron as goat.
posted by Reasonably Everything Happens at 3:41 PM on February 7, 2023
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar has been in a lot more classic comedies than Lebron James has been in, so far, but he's still got plenty of time.
This scandal that “never quite broke the surface” has actually never broken the surface, in that no one has ever offered any direct evidence for it in 29 years, or offered any coherent explanation of how the suspension is supposed to have worked.
This is the sort of scandal that tends to come out in like 20 years once someone thinks that there isn't going to be any serious fallout. I'd assume it wasn't true.
posted by Merus at 5:06 PM on February 7, 2023
This scandal that “never quite broke the surface” has actually never broken the surface, in that no one has ever offered any direct evidence for it in 29 years, or offered any coherent explanation of how the suspension is supposed to have worked.
This is the sort of scandal that tends to come out in like 20 years once someone thinks that there isn't going to be any serious fallout. I'd assume it wasn't true.
posted by Merus at 5:06 PM on February 7, 2023
I have a lot of respect for Lebron and his achievements but I have to confess I have never really been a fan because I've always felt he was just too physically dominant in a Wilt Chamberlin kind of way. I tend to stan for players that overcome something or struggle to achieve rather than players who just fulfill their potential. Lebron has always struck me as kind of the answer to the question "What if Shaq but motivated to improve and properly condition?" even when he was not quite as large as Shaq because somehow he still makes other players on the court, even taller ones, seem physically like boys playing against a man.
My counter to that would be this: go look at some of the rosters he just about single-handedly dragged to the NBA Finals. He’s lost a lot more Finals than he’s won, but a lot of those teams had no business getting that far in the first place. LeBron worked miracles with the guys he had on his teams.
posted by azpenguin at 5:28 PM on February 7, 2023 [6 favorites]
My counter to that would be this: go look at some of the rosters he just about single-handedly dragged to the NBA Finals. He’s lost a lot more Finals than he’s won, but a lot of those teams had no business getting that far in the first place. LeBron worked miracles with the guys he had on his teams.
posted by azpenguin at 5:28 PM on February 7, 2023 [6 favorites]
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar has been in a lot more classic comedies than Lebron James has been in, so far, but he's still got plenty of time.
He has also written more novels about Sherlock and Mycroft Holmes.
(My parents were grad students at UCLA when he was there, and recall that he had a somewhat disconcerting habit of casually leaning against the tops of doorframes.)
posted by thomas j wise at 5:59 PM on February 7, 2023 [6 favorites]
He has also written more novels about Sherlock and Mycroft Holmes.
(My parents were grad students at UCLA when he was there, and recall that he had a somewhat disconcerting habit of casually leaning against the tops of doorframes.)
posted by thomas j wise at 5:59 PM on February 7, 2023 [6 favorites]
As a Bulls/Pistons fan when James came into the league, I wasn't a fan. I didn't like (still don't) the calls and preferential treatment he got, and when he went to Miami and settled into the villain role against the plucky understart/star-crossed Bulls, he was great as the big bad. I still want to believe that, had Rose's knee never turned into used off-brand tissue, and had Noah and Deng not been ground to absolute dust, the Heat/Bulls conference finals could have been a regular thing in the East, and the Heat would not have always won.
But. And this is great: even when the promise of those Bulls teams had faded, and finding out that Rose would be out for the season was a yearly event, they still had Miami's number (regular season only). When Miami was within a game of setting the consecutive wins mark, they played the Bulls, who were without Rose and Noah, and the Bulls won (Heinrich took a charge from a full-head-of-steam James that bounced his head off the court, and had to come out of the game), ending the (almost) record breaking streak of wins.
And, well, there's always Carlos Boozer's absolute highlight, where James tried to shoulder block his way through a Boozer screen, and got whistled for a flagrant. Boozer barely moved, and utter the words "I'm too strong for that, Bron Bron."
I will admit, he is a transcendent player, and I feel like there is an excellent chance he's really just getting started, and that his post playing career will be something just as special.
posted by Ghidorah at 6:37 PM on February 7, 2023
But. And this is great: even when the promise of those Bulls teams had faded, and finding out that Rose would be out for the season was a yearly event, they still had Miami's number (regular season only). When Miami was within a game of setting the consecutive wins mark, they played the Bulls, who were without Rose and Noah, and the Bulls won (Heinrich took a charge from a full-head-of-steam James that bounced his head off the court, and had to come out of the game), ending the (almost) record breaking streak of wins.
And, well, there's always Carlos Boozer's absolute highlight, where James tried to shoulder block his way through a Boozer screen, and got whistled for a flagrant. Boozer barely moved, and utter the words "I'm too strong for that, Bron Bron."
I will admit, he is a transcendent player, and I feel like there is an excellent chance he's really just getting started, and that his post playing career will be something just as special.
posted by Ghidorah at 6:37 PM on February 7, 2023
As a Bulls/Pistons fan when James came into the league, I wasn't a fan. I didn't like (still don't) the calls and preferential treatment he gotSooooo...all megastars get this treatment. Ask Detroit/Cleveland/Phoenix/Indiana fans whether Jordan ever got preferential treatment from league employees with whistles. Some of his iconic moments are not flattering to revisit on video.
He may really still be the GOAT. Note, however, that a handful of players have forced changes in the rules by the sheer force of their dominance. Wilt, Kareem, and...?
Final note re: Jordan. His best teams would have struggled and probably lost to the best Olajuwon and Duncan teams. They were vastly more complete squads.
The real answer is, I think, what chaz hinted at above: the "none greater" model. There was not a greater player than Kareem, nor will there ever be. Same for Jordan. Same for Russell. Et al. Sport asks for absolutes but scuttles the answers.
The least-popular GOAT candidate, but one I sometimes favor: Magic. His game transformed the game. His DNA transformed the league's destiny, far more than Bird's or even Jordan's.
Giannis, Embiid, Jokic, Doncic, Morant, Lillard...and, of course, Curry, who has gone oddly unmentioned as through this thread as a transformative player...would have so utterly lit up the league in any era that truly gifted players like George Gervin would have needed to raise their game.
Yes, I had an Iceman Poster on my wall in junior high.
posted by Caxton1476 at 7:15 PM on February 7, 2023
Ok, so I made the crack about Space Jam earlier, but here's the thing
I live in Cleveland. I've lived here most of my life
I'm old enough to have watched Jordan (at least on TV)
I'm not from Chicago so I do not know-
The victory 'parade' for the Cavs championship that LeBron and Co. caused was absolutely the craziest, largest, most anarchist, yet also most sweet and wholesome thing I've ever participated in
The man is essentially a God in this part of the world
I know that Jordan is a basketball God, but do kids in Chicago still want "to be like Mike" the way LeBron is now
Not sure what point I'm making, carry on.
I enjoy the basketball. Being from Northern Ohio, this whole "LeBron" phenomenon has been quite something. Exhilarating!
posted by SystematicAbuse at 7:19 PM on February 7, 2023 [1 favorite]
I live in Cleveland. I've lived here most of my life
I'm old enough to have watched Jordan (at least on TV)
I'm not from Chicago so I do not know-
The victory 'parade' for the Cavs championship that LeBron and Co. caused was absolutely the craziest, largest, most anarchist, yet also most sweet and wholesome thing I've ever participated in
The man is essentially a God in this part of the world
I know that Jordan is a basketball God, but do kids in Chicago still want "to be like Mike" the way LeBron is now
Not sure what point I'm making, carry on.
I enjoy the basketball. Being from Northern Ohio, this whole "LeBron" phenomenon has been quite something. Exhilarating!
posted by SystematicAbuse at 7:19 PM on February 7, 2023 [1 favorite]
I have a half-baked theory that GOAT conversations are influenced by how many big games a player almost lost and then didn't. There's something about the intensity of emotion provoked by a close final that makes a player more memorable than a blowout does.
This mostly applies to Michael Jordan and Tom Brady, whose many clutch moments cemented them in the American sporting imagination.
posted by clawsoon at 7:43 PM on February 7, 2023 [2 favorites]
This mostly applies to Michael Jordan and Tom Brady, whose many clutch moments cemented them in the American sporting imagination.
posted by clawsoon at 7:43 PM on February 7, 2023 [2 favorites]
NBC:
In front of cheering fans at L.A.'s Crypto.com Arena, the Los Angeles Lakers star secured his place in the record books during the third quarter of Tuesday's game against the Oklahoma City Thunder. James poured in 20 first half points, going into the break only needing 16 more to surpass Abdul-Jabbar.posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 9:01 PM on February 7, 2023 [3 favorites]
LeBron James nets all-time NBA scoring record with his 38,388th point.
James broke the record with 10.9 seconds left in the third quarter. The crowd erupted, and James shared a hug with his mother. The game paused in celebration.posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 9:08 PM on February 7, 2023 [2 favorites]
Michael Jordan did so well at basketball, he got bored of it. Like quit at the prime of his career to play minor league baseball.
Jordan's father was murdered on July 23, 1993. Jordan retired on October 6, citing his father's death as a major reason.
posted by kirkaracha at 9:52 PM on February 7, 2023 [6 favorites]
Jordan's father was murdered on July 23, 1993. Jordan retired on October 6, citing his father's death as a major reason.
posted by kirkaracha at 9:52 PM on February 7, 2023 [6 favorites]
I am by no means a basketball expert but I kinda feel like although James does not seem to be as psychotically driven to win as Jordan (not many people are/were), if he'd ever had a supporting cast as good as Jordan's he'd have at least as many championships.
posted by The Card Cheat at 7:04 AM on February 8, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by The Card Cheat at 7:04 AM on February 8, 2023 [5 favorites]
Y'all are crazy. Its LeBron. He's the GOAT.
I'm old too, and I also watched them both play. Jordan didn't sniff a finals until he got Pippen and Jackson. Why does everyone decide to forget this? Never won a ring without them either. LeBron went to 8 straight. Brought 3 chips to 3 different teams. The Miami teams were stacked, but go ahead and check out the rosters for Cleveland during both his stints there. Look at the Lakers aside from AD.
Jordan would have never had that much success given those players and coaches. I said what I said.
posted by pickinganameismuchharderthanihadanticipated at 7:41 AM on February 8, 2023 [7 favorites]
I'm old too, and I also watched them both play. Jordan didn't sniff a finals until he got Pippen and Jackson. Why does everyone decide to forget this? Never won a ring without them either. LeBron went to 8 straight. Brought 3 chips to 3 different teams. The Miami teams were stacked, but go ahead and check out the rosters for Cleveland during both his stints there. Look at the Lakers aside from AD.
Jordan would have never had that much success given those players and coaches. I said what I said.
posted by pickinganameismuchharderthanihadanticipated at 7:41 AM on February 8, 2023 [7 favorites]
twitter: aaron rupar has a short video of LeBron's remarks after the game
posted by dismas at 7:54 AM on February 8, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by dismas at 7:54 AM on February 8, 2023 [1 favorite]
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar: What I Think About LeBron Breaking My NBA Scoring Record
posted by 1970s Antihero at 8:44 AM on February 8, 2023 [11 favorites]
posted by 1970s Antihero at 8:44 AM on February 8, 2023 [11 favorites]
Kareem reacts to LeBron James Breaking NBA Scoring Record (YouTube clip)
posted by cashman at 8:58 AM on February 8, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by cashman at 8:58 AM on February 8, 2023 [2 favorites]
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar: What I Think About LeBron Breaking My NBA Scoring Record
That's a really good article. I've not followed him, and I was totally caught off guard.
posted by The_Vegetables at 9:08 AM on February 8, 2023
That's a really good article. I've not followed him, and I was totally caught off guard.
posted by The_Vegetables at 9:08 AM on February 8, 2023
I watched basketball a lot more in the '80s and '90s, and picking between such great players is silly, but I'm a silly guy and if I had to pick I'd put James ahead of Jordan.
For one thing I just feel Jordan peaked at a transitional period. So many great players were on their way out when he joined; no other team got going in the 90s. Jordan carried a team to the second best record ever--but LeBron beat the 2016 Warriors, who surpassed that record, in the finals. And I say that as a Warriors fan. And, yeah, Jordan won with a team built for him. LeBron mostly hasn't.
The question of which human being who's held the scoring record that I'm most impressed with, it's hands down social activist, comic actor, jazz fan, mystery writer, and Benoit Blanc friend Kareem Abdul-Jabbar. His substack article linked two above is appropriately classy.
posted by mark k at 9:11 AM on February 8, 2023 [4 favorites]
For one thing I just feel Jordan peaked at a transitional period. So many great players were on their way out when he joined; no other team got going in the 90s. Jordan carried a team to the second best record ever--but LeBron beat the 2016 Warriors, who surpassed that record, in the finals. And I say that as a Warriors fan. And, yeah, Jordan won with a team built for him. LeBron mostly hasn't.
The question of which human being who's held the scoring record that I'm most impressed with, it's hands down social activist, comic actor, jazz fan, mystery writer, and Benoit Blanc friend Kareem Abdul-Jabbar. His substack article linked two above is appropriately classy.
posted by mark k at 9:11 AM on February 8, 2023 [4 favorites]
I want to amend my last post: "Classy" is a word that gets tossed out for being blandly gracious, and Kareem's substack article is well beyond that. It's really well written and has keen observations on the role of sports and on his own life that a lot of other writers (including ones who haven't been distracted by setting NBA records) would be proud to have come up with.
posted by mark k at 9:18 AM on February 8, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by mark k at 9:18 AM on February 8, 2023 [1 favorite]
That's a really good article. I've not followed him, and I was totally caught off guard.
I'm a non-USian, non-basketballian... and despite that lack of context I will read or listen carefully to whatever Kareem Abdul-Jabbar has to say on any subject.
He's forthright and compelling and humane and just generally seems to be able to channel a very rare degree of excellence in discourse.
posted by protorp at 9:29 AM on February 8, 2023 [3 favorites]
I'm a non-USian, non-basketballian... and despite that lack of context I will read or listen carefully to whatever Kareem Abdul-Jabbar has to say on any subject.
He's forthright and compelling and humane and just generally seems to be able to channel a very rare degree of excellence in discourse.
posted by protorp at 9:29 AM on February 8, 2023 [3 favorites]
I changed my mind about James years ago after his visible show of emotion when he lead the Cavs to victory. I'm happy for him.
Cf. “Kareem Abdul-Jabbar Reflects on His Incredible Basketball Career”—The Tonight Show Starring Johnny Carson, 07 January 1986
posted by ob1quixote at 3:54 PM on February 8, 2023 [1 favorite]
Cf. “Kareem Abdul-Jabbar Reflects on His Incredible Basketball Career”—The Tonight Show Starring Johnny Carson, 07 January 1986
posted by ob1quixote at 3:54 PM on February 8, 2023 [1 favorite]
I also love LeBron for starring in one of my all-time favorite gifs.
posted by TwoStride at 6:41 AM on February 9, 2023
posted by TwoStride at 6:41 AM on February 9, 2023
Sports fans who love reading about greatness and what it means (and if you love Wright Thompson), spend 30 minutes and read his writeup on Joe Montana.
posted by sandmanwv at 8:13 AM on February 9, 2023
posted by sandmanwv at 8:13 AM on February 9, 2023
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar: What I Think About LeBron Breaking My NBA Scoring Record
posted by clawsoon at 7:12 PM on February 9, 2023
I’m not trying to build a billion-dollar empire, I write articles in defense of democracy and advocating on behalf of the marginalized.Why did I immediately wonder if he was talking about Michael Jordan when I read that?
posted by clawsoon at 7:12 PM on February 9, 2023
« Older Carol Kaye: "The Metronome has to Sound Like It's... | When Wordle isn't stressful enough Newer »
This thread has been archived and is closed to new comments
posted by slogger at 7:18 AM on February 7, 2023 [17 favorites]