The natural destination of poor editorial judgment is the court of law.
February 15, 2023 8:18 AM Subscribe
"We write to you as a collective of New York Times contributors with serious concerns about editorial bias in the newspaper’s reporting on transgender, non-binary, and gender nonconforming people." An open letter to the New York Times.
I got a warning about malicious malware... I think Chrome has been a bit over cautious about that lately. Others have thoughts?
posted by latkes at 8:26 AM on February 15, 2023
posted by latkes at 8:26 AM on February 15, 2023
I ask because I don't know. Why do queer people continue to read/support the NYT? I have friends who give them money and are also trans and it is baffling. I hesitate to ask them directly because they're already going through a lot of shit, so if any of y'all are both among the group of people the NYT is targeting and also give the NYT money do you have some cycles to spare can you please explain?
posted by seanmpuckett at 8:42 AM on February 15, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by seanmpuckett at 8:42 AM on February 15, 2023 [1 favorite]
I didn't know Jennifer Finney Boylan's contract had been ended on her. That really sucks.
posted by jenfullmoon at 8:42 AM on February 15, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by jenfullmoon at 8:42 AM on February 15, 2023 [5 favorites]
I'm getting a similar warning but the ultimate cause is my work network doesn't like this domain and is trying (and failing) to serve a "domain blocked" page, but instead is just generating a mismatched certificate error.
posted by BungaDunga at 8:43 AM on February 15, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by BungaDunga at 8:43 AM on February 15, 2023 [2 favorites]
The NYT reports things correctly, but all too often 40 years too late.
posted by coberh at 8:43 AM on February 15, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by coberh at 8:43 AM on February 15, 2023 [4 favorites]
I got a warning about malicious malware... I think Chrome has been a bit over cautious about that lately. Others have thoughts?
I'm using Chrome on a work computer at a hospital. It regularly blocks ads and even had MeFi blocked yesterday. It loaded the linked site with no warning or problem for me.
posted by Night_owl at 8:45 AM on February 15, 2023 [1 favorite]
I'm using Chrome on a work computer at a hospital. It regularly blocks ads and even had MeFi blocked yesterday. It loaded the linked site with no warning or problem for me.
posted by Night_owl at 8:45 AM on February 15, 2023 [1 favorite]
Same here, no warnings or other issues.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 8:51 AM on February 15, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 8:51 AM on February 15, 2023 [1 favorite]
That’s a good letter! And quite the list of signatories. Feel like “what do Allison Roman, Chelsea Manning, and Ed Yong have in common?” could be a trivia question someday.
posted by Going To Maine at 8:58 AM on February 15, 2023 [8 favorites]
posted by Going To Maine at 8:58 AM on February 15, 2023 [8 favorites]
After seeing that recent posting about that string of recent articles at the NYT, I’m really glad to see such a well written and biting response. As sources of good information are fading rapidly, it’s still good to see one of the so-called bastions of good journalism be called out for its horrible handling of these issues. It would be good to see a similar letter aimed at the Guardian. Maybe this one will inspire people there to do it too.
posted by njohnson23 at 8:59 AM on February 15, 2023 [22 favorites]
posted by njohnson23 at 8:59 AM on February 15, 2023 [22 favorites]
Synchronicities: GLAAD also has an open letter out.
posted by Going To Maine at 9:18 AM on February 15, 2023 [7 favorites]
posted by Going To Maine at 9:18 AM on February 15, 2023 [7 favorites]
For people who are getting warnings and such:
Wednesday, February 15, 2023
For the attention of Philip B. Corbett, associate managing editor for standards at The New York Times.
Dear Philip,
We write to you as a collective of New York Times contributors with serious concerns about editorial bias in the newspaper’s reporting on transgender, non-binary, and gender nonconforming people.
Plenty of reporters at the Times cover trans issues fairly. Their work is eclipsed, however, by what one journalist has calculated as over 15,000 words of front-page Times coverage debating the propriety of medical care for trans children published in the last eight months alone.
The newspaper’s editorial guidelines demand that reporters “preserve a professional detachment, free of any whiff of bias” when cultivating their sources, remaining “sensitive that personal relationships with news sources can erode into favoritism, in fact or appearance.” Yet the Times has in recent years treated gender diversity with an eerily familiar mix of pseudoscience and euphemistic, charged language, while publishing reporting on trans children that omits relevant information about its sources.
For example, Emily Bazelon’s article “The Battle Over Gender Therapy” uncritically used the term “patient zero” to refer to a trans child seeking gender-affirming care, a phrase that vilifies transness as a disease to be feared. Bazelon quoted multiple expert sources who have since expressed regret over their work’s misrepresentation. Another source, Grace Lidinksy-Smith, was identified as an individual person speaking about a personal choice to detransition, rather than the President of GCCAN, an activist organization that pushes junk science and partners with explicitly anti-trans hate groups.
In a similar case, Katie Baker’s recent feature “When Students Change Gender Identity and Parents Don’t Know” misframed the battle over children’s right to safely transition. The piece fails to make clear that court cases brought by parents who want schools to out their trans children are part of a legal strategy pursued by anti-trans hate groups. These groups have identified trans people as an “existential threat to society” and seek to replace the American public education system with Christian homeschooling, key context Baker did not provide to Times readers.
The natural destination of poor editorial judgment is the court of law. Last year, Arkansas’ attorney general filed an amicus brief in defense of Alabama’s Vulnerable Child Compassion and Protection Act, which would make it a felony, punishable by up to 10 years’ imprisonment, for any medical provider to administer certain gender-affirming medical care to a minor (including puberty blockers) that diverges from their sex assigned at birth. The brief cited three different New York Times articles to justify its support of the law: Bazelon’s “The Battle Over Gender Therapy,” Azeen Ghorayshi’s “Doctors Debate Whether Trans Teens Need Therapy Before Hormones,” and Ross Douthat’s “How to Make Sense of the New L.G.B.T.Q. Culture War.” As recently as February 8th, 2023, attorney David Begley’s invited testimony to the Nebraska state legislature in support of a similar bill approvingly cited the Times’ reporting and relied on its reputation as the “paper of record” to justify criminalizing gender-affirming care.
Douthat’s piece was published in the Opinion section, which lost one of the paper’s most consistently published trans writers, Jennifer Finney Boylan, following the Times’ recent decision not to renew her contract.
As thinkers, we are disappointed to see the New York Times follow the lead of far-right hate groups in presenting gender diversity as a new controversy warranting new, punitive legislation. Puberty blockers, hormone replacement therapy, and gender-affirming surgeries have been standard forms of care for cis and trans people alike for decades. Legal challenges to gender-nonconformity date back even further, with 34 cities in 21 states passing laws against cross-dressing between 1848 and 1900, usually enforced alongside so-called prohibitions against public indecency that disproportionately targeted immigrants, people of color, sex workers, and other marginalized groups. Such punishments are documented as far back as 1394, when police in England detained Eleanor Rykener on suspicion of the crime of sodomy, exposing her after an interrogation as “John.” This is not a cultural emergency.
You no doubt recall a time in more recent history when it was ordinary to speak of homosexuality as a disease at the American family dinner table—a norm fostered in part by the New York Times’ track record of demonizing queers through the ostensible reporting of science.
In 1963, the New York Times published a front-page story with the title “Growth of Overt Homosexuality in City Provokes Wide Concern,” which stated that homosexuals saw their own sexuality as “an inborn, incurable disease”—one that scientists, the Times announced, now thought could be “cured.” The word “gay” started making its way into the paper. Then, in 1975, the Times published an article by Clifford Jahr about a queer cruise (the kind on a boat) featuring a “sadomasochistic fashion show.” On the urging of his shocked mother, Times publisher Arthur Ochs Sulzberger sent down the order: Stop covering these people. The Times style guide was updated to include the following dictum, which stood until 1987: “Do not use gay as a synonym for homosexual unless it appears in the formal, capitalized name of an organization or in quoted matter.”
New York Times managing editor and executive editor A. M. Rosenthal neglected to put AIDS on the front page until 1983, by which time the virus had already killed 500 New Yorkers. He withheld planned promotions from colleagues he learned on the grapevine were gay. Many of his employees feared being outed. William F. Buckley published his op-ed arguing that people with HIV/AIDS should all be forcibly tattooed in the Times. Obituaries in the Times ascribed death from HIV/AIDS to “undisclosed causes” or a “rare disorder,” and left the partners of the deceased out entirely from its record of their lives. This era of hateful rhetoric also saw the rise of the term “patient zero,” used to falsely accuse an HIV/AIDS patient of deliberately infecting others. This is the same rhetoric that transphobic policymakers recently reintroduced to the American lawmaking apparatus by quoting Emily Bazelon’s Times article.
Some of us are trans, non-binary, or gender nonconforming, and we resent the fact that our work, but not our person, is good enough for the paper of record. Some of us are cis, and we have seen those we love discover and fight for their true selves, often swimming upstream against currents of bigotry and pseudoscience fomented by the kind of coverage we here protest. All of us daresay our stance is unremarkable, even common, and certainly not deserving of the Times’ intense scrutiny. A tiny percentage of the population is trans, and an even smaller percentage of those people face the type of conflict the Times is so intent on magnifying. There is no rapt reporting on the thousands of parents who simply love and support their children, or on the hardworking professionals at the New York Times enduring a workplace made hostile by bias—a period of forbearance that ends today.
We await your response.
Yours sincerely, (long list of contributors, very long list of supporters)
posted by box at 9:23 AM on February 15, 2023 [83 favorites]
Wednesday, February 15, 2023
For the attention of Philip B. Corbett, associate managing editor for standards at The New York Times.
Dear Philip,
We write to you as a collective of New York Times contributors with serious concerns about editorial bias in the newspaper’s reporting on transgender, non-binary, and gender nonconforming people.
Plenty of reporters at the Times cover trans issues fairly. Their work is eclipsed, however, by what one journalist has calculated as over 15,000 words of front-page Times coverage debating the propriety of medical care for trans children published in the last eight months alone.
The newspaper’s editorial guidelines demand that reporters “preserve a professional detachment, free of any whiff of bias” when cultivating their sources, remaining “sensitive that personal relationships with news sources can erode into favoritism, in fact or appearance.” Yet the Times has in recent years treated gender diversity with an eerily familiar mix of pseudoscience and euphemistic, charged language, while publishing reporting on trans children that omits relevant information about its sources.
For example, Emily Bazelon’s article “The Battle Over Gender Therapy” uncritically used the term “patient zero” to refer to a trans child seeking gender-affirming care, a phrase that vilifies transness as a disease to be feared. Bazelon quoted multiple expert sources who have since expressed regret over their work’s misrepresentation. Another source, Grace Lidinksy-Smith, was identified as an individual person speaking about a personal choice to detransition, rather than the President of GCCAN, an activist organization that pushes junk science and partners with explicitly anti-trans hate groups.
In a similar case, Katie Baker’s recent feature “When Students Change Gender Identity and Parents Don’t Know” misframed the battle over children’s right to safely transition. The piece fails to make clear that court cases brought by parents who want schools to out their trans children are part of a legal strategy pursued by anti-trans hate groups. These groups have identified trans people as an “existential threat to society” and seek to replace the American public education system with Christian homeschooling, key context Baker did not provide to Times readers.
The natural destination of poor editorial judgment is the court of law. Last year, Arkansas’ attorney general filed an amicus brief in defense of Alabama’s Vulnerable Child Compassion and Protection Act, which would make it a felony, punishable by up to 10 years’ imprisonment, for any medical provider to administer certain gender-affirming medical care to a minor (including puberty blockers) that diverges from their sex assigned at birth. The brief cited three different New York Times articles to justify its support of the law: Bazelon’s “The Battle Over Gender Therapy,” Azeen Ghorayshi’s “Doctors Debate Whether Trans Teens Need Therapy Before Hormones,” and Ross Douthat’s “How to Make Sense of the New L.G.B.T.Q. Culture War.” As recently as February 8th, 2023, attorney David Begley’s invited testimony to the Nebraska state legislature in support of a similar bill approvingly cited the Times’ reporting and relied on its reputation as the “paper of record” to justify criminalizing gender-affirming care.
Douthat’s piece was published in the Opinion section, which lost one of the paper’s most consistently published trans writers, Jennifer Finney Boylan, following the Times’ recent decision not to renew her contract.
As thinkers, we are disappointed to see the New York Times follow the lead of far-right hate groups in presenting gender diversity as a new controversy warranting new, punitive legislation. Puberty blockers, hormone replacement therapy, and gender-affirming surgeries have been standard forms of care for cis and trans people alike for decades. Legal challenges to gender-nonconformity date back even further, with 34 cities in 21 states passing laws against cross-dressing between 1848 and 1900, usually enforced alongside so-called prohibitions against public indecency that disproportionately targeted immigrants, people of color, sex workers, and other marginalized groups. Such punishments are documented as far back as 1394, when police in England detained Eleanor Rykener on suspicion of the crime of sodomy, exposing her after an interrogation as “John.” This is not a cultural emergency.
You no doubt recall a time in more recent history when it was ordinary to speak of homosexuality as a disease at the American family dinner table—a norm fostered in part by the New York Times’ track record of demonizing queers through the ostensible reporting of science.
In 1963, the New York Times published a front-page story with the title “Growth of Overt Homosexuality in City Provokes Wide Concern,” which stated that homosexuals saw their own sexuality as “an inborn, incurable disease”—one that scientists, the Times announced, now thought could be “cured.” The word “gay” started making its way into the paper. Then, in 1975, the Times published an article by Clifford Jahr about a queer cruise (the kind on a boat) featuring a “sadomasochistic fashion show.” On the urging of his shocked mother, Times publisher Arthur Ochs Sulzberger sent down the order: Stop covering these people. The Times style guide was updated to include the following dictum, which stood until 1987: “Do not use gay as a synonym for homosexual unless it appears in the formal, capitalized name of an organization or in quoted matter.”
New York Times managing editor and executive editor A. M. Rosenthal neglected to put AIDS on the front page until 1983, by which time the virus had already killed 500 New Yorkers. He withheld planned promotions from colleagues he learned on the grapevine were gay. Many of his employees feared being outed. William F. Buckley published his op-ed arguing that people with HIV/AIDS should all be forcibly tattooed in the Times. Obituaries in the Times ascribed death from HIV/AIDS to “undisclosed causes” or a “rare disorder,” and left the partners of the deceased out entirely from its record of their lives. This era of hateful rhetoric also saw the rise of the term “patient zero,” used to falsely accuse an HIV/AIDS patient of deliberately infecting others. This is the same rhetoric that transphobic policymakers recently reintroduced to the American lawmaking apparatus by quoting Emily Bazelon’s Times article.
Some of us are trans, non-binary, or gender nonconforming, and we resent the fact that our work, but not our person, is good enough for the paper of record. Some of us are cis, and we have seen those we love discover and fight for their true selves, often swimming upstream against currents of bigotry and pseudoscience fomented by the kind of coverage we here protest. All of us daresay our stance is unremarkable, even common, and certainly not deserving of the Times’ intense scrutiny. A tiny percentage of the population is trans, and an even smaller percentage of those people face the type of conflict the Times is so intent on magnifying. There is no rapt reporting on the thousands of parents who simply love and support their children, or on the hardworking professionals at the New York Times enduring a workplace made hostile by bias—a period of forbearance that ends today.
We await your response.
Yours sincerely, (long list of contributors, very long list of supporters)
posted by box at 9:23 AM on February 15, 2023 [83 favorites]
> Why do queer people continue to read/support the NYT?
What's the alternative? As individuals and as a society, we need serious newspapers (because the alternative is the algorithms of Big Tech and clickbait and the organized right wing propaganda machine taking over small local papers). We need good investigative journalists and the profession of journalism to survive and thrive, even while we need to hold accountable the centrist establishment that owns and editorializes these newspapers.
If a trans person finds the NYTimes' transphobia unbearable and wants to just check out, that is entirely understandable. But if they keep reading/subscribing/contributing and pushing for the NYTimes to be better, we shouldn't ask "why are you even bothering?"
posted by splitpeasoup at 9:29 AM on February 15, 2023 [34 favorites]
What's the alternative? As individuals and as a society, we need serious newspapers (because the alternative is the algorithms of Big Tech and clickbait and the organized right wing propaganda machine taking over small local papers). We need good investigative journalists and the profession of journalism to survive and thrive, even while we need to hold accountable the centrist establishment that owns and editorializes these newspapers.
If a trans person finds the NYTimes' transphobia unbearable and wants to just check out, that is entirely understandable. But if they keep reading/subscribing/contributing and pushing for the NYTimes to be better, we shouldn't ask "why are you even bothering?"
posted by splitpeasoup at 9:29 AM on February 15, 2023 [34 favorites]
But if they keep reading/subscribing/contributing and pushing for the NYTimes to be better, we shouldn't ask "why are you even bothering?"
True but keep in mind even Hiawatha only asked someone three times to accept the Great Peace. You can't keep appealing to someone's better nature if they don't have one.
posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock at 9:37 AM on February 15, 2023 [8 favorites]
True but keep in mind even Hiawatha only asked someone three times to accept the Great Peace. You can't keep appealing to someone's better nature if they don't have one.
posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock at 9:37 AM on February 15, 2023 [8 favorites]
The natural destination of poor editorial judgment is the court of law.
Super resonant for this letter to hit the same day as this transphobic discrimination garbage law.
I wonder about the tone the Times reporting will take on it.
posted by The Pluto Gangsta at 9:40 AM on February 15, 2023 [3 favorites]
Super resonant for this letter to hit the same day as this transphobic discrimination garbage law.
I wonder about the tone the Times reporting will take on it.
posted by The Pluto Gangsta at 9:40 AM on February 15, 2023 [3 favorites]
I remember wondering whether the Tom Scocca article recently posted here would get any reaction out of the NYT as an organization, and it looks like it has, but still not from the top? Will there be any publicized response to this from the NYT editor?
It seems like it needs one fairly urgently.
posted by pulposus at 9:47 AM on February 15, 2023 [1 favorite]
It seems like it needs one fairly urgently.
posted by pulposus at 9:47 AM on February 15, 2023 [1 favorite]
curious nu, thank you so much for posting this. (And box, thank you for posting the letter here for those who were hitting barriers.)
That open letter is so clear and specific, so - [insert many laudatory adjectives here that my brain is fumbling right now].
I've been aware of the egregious Times coverage for quite a while, thanks largely to MeFites pointing it out, but having it laid out here with the details and the facts gives me a much greater understanding of what I only understood vaguely. I'm hopeful this will make me a better ally.
Thank you for sharing this with us, so we can see this pattern of fear-mongering and prejudice more clearly.
posted by kristi at 9:50 AM on February 15, 2023 [14 favorites]
That open letter is so clear and specific, so - [insert many laudatory adjectives here that my brain is fumbling right now].
I've been aware of the egregious Times coverage for quite a while, thanks largely to MeFites pointing it out, but having it laid out here with the details and the facts gives me a much greater understanding of what I only understood vaguely. I'm hopeful this will make me a better ally.
Thank you for sharing this with us, so we can see this pattern of fear-mongering and prejudice more clearly.
posted by kristi at 9:50 AM on February 15, 2023 [14 favorites]
I mean, trans people aren't a monolith. My guess is that most trans people who pay money for the NYT probably feel that it won't do much good not to pay, so they might as well get the crossword. Some very small percentage of them may feel that because they are well-off professionals and/or not visibly trans, they are protected from the violence that the NYT de facto advocates. Some of them may be too tired to care, or feel that they are already spending all their energy avoiding other kinds of transphobia.
Gotta say that it is just disgusting in a very particular way when all these smug, rich, luxury-apartment-and-secure-retirement professional opinion-havers write these articles. It's a particular kind of fascism, like it's clear that on an unconscious level they get sadistic pleasure out of making us suffer and die, but it wouldn't be nice to admit that to themselves. And as a result, society as a whole agrees to pretend that when they publish things that are designed to get us killed, we should take them as nice people acting in good faith.
We need a new affective theory of fascism. There's the famous and very good Male Fantasies by Klaus Theweleit which deals specifically with the Freikorps and more generally with the Nazi-type fascist, but we need something that describes the fantasies that animate the upper class white literary-class people.
They'd all be appalled if someone they respected called them conservative, because of course they're very very progressive....but they're fascists who "just ask questions" until someone hauls off and murders us. They're not stupid. They know how this works. They do it because they like doing it - I suspect it's the Orson Scott Card-style sadistic pleasure of "oh it really HURTS me to HAVE to do this TERRIBLE thing for my pure moral PRINCIPLES but I am just FORCED to commit this violence on you BECAUSE OF MY VERY PURE BELIEFS".
posted by Frowner at 9:52 AM on February 15, 2023 [58 favorites]
Gotta say that it is just disgusting in a very particular way when all these smug, rich, luxury-apartment-and-secure-retirement professional opinion-havers write these articles. It's a particular kind of fascism, like it's clear that on an unconscious level they get sadistic pleasure out of making us suffer and die, but it wouldn't be nice to admit that to themselves. And as a result, society as a whole agrees to pretend that when they publish things that are designed to get us killed, we should take them as nice people acting in good faith.
We need a new affective theory of fascism. There's the famous and very good Male Fantasies by Klaus Theweleit which deals specifically with the Freikorps and more generally with the Nazi-type fascist, but we need something that describes the fantasies that animate the upper class white literary-class people.
They'd all be appalled if someone they respected called them conservative, because of course they're very very progressive....but they're fascists who "just ask questions" until someone hauls off and murders us. They're not stupid. They know how this works. They do it because they like doing it - I suspect it's the Orson Scott Card-style sadistic pleasure of "oh it really HURTS me to HAVE to do this TERRIBLE thing for my pure moral PRINCIPLES but I am just FORCED to commit this violence on you BECAUSE OF MY VERY PURE BELIEFS".
posted by Frowner at 9:52 AM on February 15, 2023 [58 favorites]
What's the alternative?
The Post, unless it's bigoted against trans folks too?
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 10:01 AM on February 15, 2023
The Post, unless it's bigoted against trans folks too?
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 10:01 AM on February 15, 2023
I tried switching to WaPo because of this and Bret Stephens, but WaPo ran two anti trans opeds in a month so I bailed...
posted by constraint at 10:02 AM on February 15, 2023 [6 favorites]
posted by constraint at 10:02 AM on February 15, 2023 [6 favorites]
Ugh, that SD law. So many people in the photo smiling as their governor signs hate legislation. Would be nice if openly discriminatory laws, at the state level, were matched by refusal to provide any Federal tax dollars until and unless the laws were reversed.
But that takes a functioning Congress, some actual altruism, and a soul.
posted by caution live frogs at 10:07 AM on February 15, 2023 [8 favorites]
But that takes a functioning Congress, some actual altruism, and a soul.
posted by caution live frogs at 10:07 AM on February 15, 2023 [8 favorites]
What's the alternative?
The Post, unless it's bigoted against trans folks too?
So, about that:
Chloe Simon & Alyssa Tirrell: The Washington Post is filling its opinion section with anti-LGBTQ figures
posted by Glegrinof the Pig-Man at 10:27 AM on February 15, 2023 [9 favorites]
The Post, unless it's bigoted against trans folks too?
So, about that:
Chloe Simon & Alyssa Tirrell: The Washington Post is filling its opinion section with anti-LGBTQ figures
posted by Glegrinof the Pig-Man at 10:27 AM on February 15, 2023 [9 favorites]
This issue is not strictly limited to the NYT - it is a prevailing "MSM" perspective, and it is being treated by cable news with the typical both siderism, which elevates the anti-trans POV as legitimate "I'm just asking questions" type of bullshit.
If we don't create space for our LGBTQ+ allies in our culture, media, society and economic structure, we are failing them (I am cis male hetero white GenX, fwiw). The current backlash against our allies is part of a larger drive towards fascism and authoritarianism. The monied class, who owns the media, has more power in the propaganda game, so we need to persist in our resistance to them. Canceling subscriptions to news sources doesn't seem like the right tack (to me)...I'd rather call them out on it, rather than taking myself out of the fight.
posted by Chuffy at 10:29 AM on February 15, 2023 [14 favorites]
If we don't create space for our LGBTQ+ allies in our culture, media, society and economic structure, we are failing them (I am cis male hetero white GenX, fwiw). The current backlash against our allies is part of a larger drive towards fascism and authoritarianism. The monied class, who owns the media, has more power in the propaganda game, so we need to persist in our resistance to them. Canceling subscriptions to news sources doesn't seem like the right tack (to me)...I'd rather call them out on it, rather than taking myself out of the fight.
posted by Chuffy at 10:29 AM on February 15, 2023 [14 favorites]
Mod note: Hey folks, the question of why someone reads the NYT is a bit deraily, but the responses have kept the main issue of the post on topic, so we'll leave it for now.
Yes, I've joined the moderation team, see this Meta!
posted by Brandon Blatcher (staff) at 10:31 AM on February 15, 2023 [71 favorites]
Yes, I've joined the moderation team, see this Meta!
posted by Brandon Blatcher (staff) at 10:31 AM on February 15, 2023 [71 favorites]
I wanted to note that you can add your name in support at the bottom of that page. The link goes to a Google Form which does ask for some additional information.
posted by warriorqueen at 10:35 AM on February 15, 2023 [8 favorites]
posted by warriorqueen at 10:35 AM on February 15, 2023 [8 favorites]
From the letter: "In a similar case, Katie Baker’s recent feature 'When Students Change Gender Identity and Parents Don’t Know' misframed the battle over children’s right to safely transition. The piece fails to make clear that court cases brought by parents who want schools to out their trans children are part of a legal strategy pursued by anti-trans hate groups. These groups have identified trans people as an 'existential threat to society' and seek to replace the American public education system with Christian homeschooling, key context Baker did not provide to Times readers."
From the original article: "Three parents, all self-described liberals, told The Times that support groups had connected them with a legal group affiliated with the Alliance, called the Child and Parental Rights Campaign, which was founded in 2019 with the mission of defending children and parents against 'gender identity ideology,' according to its nonprofit disclosure forms. Its president has spoken at conferences about the 'existential threat to our culture' posed by the “transgender movement."
I can understand the wish for stronger criticism of the anti-trans hate groups, but I found the context clear.
posted by Mr.Know-it-some at 10:51 AM on February 15, 2023 [6 favorites]
From the original article: "Three parents, all self-described liberals, told The Times that support groups had connected them with a legal group affiliated with the Alliance, called the Child and Parental Rights Campaign, which was founded in 2019 with the mission of defending children and parents against 'gender identity ideology,' according to its nonprofit disclosure forms. Its president has spoken at conferences about the 'existential threat to our culture' posed by the “transgender movement."
I can understand the wish for stronger criticism of the anti-trans hate groups, but I found the context clear.
posted by Mr.Know-it-some at 10:51 AM on February 15, 2023 [6 favorites]
Putting on my former editor's cap for a minute, Mr.Know-it-some, that first sentence is doing a lot of heavy lifting here: "support groups had connected them" -- I'm guessing said mysterious "support groups" were not, for example, PFLAG.
posted by warriorqueen at 10:56 AM on February 15, 2023 [8 favorites]
posted by warriorqueen at 10:56 AM on February 15, 2023 [8 favorites]
As a cis white hetero female Gen Xer I have sadly come to the conclusion that any mainstream "liberal" media outlet these days is pushing transphobic garbage. I feel like nothing I can do will stop it (maybe writing a letter to the editor that probably won't be published because I'm not In The Right Circles) so I'm glad to see people who are at least in media, if not the Right Circles, are pushing back.
I don't want to Godwin things but when I look at transphobic media bias, I think a lot about the advances we've made in gender/sex science and wonder how much of the things we've learned were lost for a while when the Nazis shut down the Institut für Sexualwissenschaft and forced Magnus Hirschfeld into exile. Between the way things are going for my queer friends and the way things are going for my fellow folks with disabilities (see every "we should just let them die of COVID if they're old/disabled/inconvenient" and all the pushback against ADA accommodations, among many other things) on bad days I feel like we're in the end days of the equivalent of the Weimar period and the forces of reaction are moving in.
The arc of history only moves toward justice when people spend a lot of effort moving it that way. Kudos to these folks for putting in the effort.
posted by gentlyepigrams at 11:06 AM on February 15, 2023 [44 favorites]
I don't want to Godwin things but when I look at transphobic media bias, I think a lot about the advances we've made in gender/sex science and wonder how much of the things we've learned were lost for a while when the Nazis shut down the Institut für Sexualwissenschaft and forced Magnus Hirschfeld into exile. Between the way things are going for my queer friends and the way things are going for my fellow folks with disabilities (see every "we should just let them die of COVID if they're old/disabled/inconvenient" and all the pushback against ADA accommodations, among many other things) on bad days I feel like we're in the end days of the equivalent of the Weimar period and the forces of reaction are moving in.
The arc of history only moves toward justice when people spend a lot of effort moving it that way. Kudos to these folks for putting in the effort.
posted by gentlyepigrams at 11:06 AM on February 15, 2023 [44 favorites]
This trans gal reads it because they set the tone for a lot of centrist/liberal conversation. I'd like to know what latest garbage they've put into the world so I'm ready for the ripples.
I also want to pull this first link out of the letter... it's an excellent analysis of how the NYT coverage damages trans people.
https://popula.com/2023/01/29/the-worst-thing-we-read-this-week-why-is-the-new-york-times-so-obsessed-with-trans-kids/
Justice rolls slowly and it takes time for the ACLU to push back against the various laws. In the meantime, the atmosphere of hatred expands, and, no doubt there's a hope on the right that they will take more federal power and be able to push their hatred to all the states. While the institutions should protect trans people, it feels really touch-and-go as to whether the mob will take control first.
posted by kokaku at 11:36 AM on February 15, 2023 [29 favorites]
I also want to pull this first link out of the letter... it's an excellent analysis of how the NYT coverage damages trans people.
https://popula.com/2023/01/29/the-worst-thing-we-read-this-week-why-is-the-new-york-times-so-obsessed-with-trans-kids/
Justice rolls slowly and it takes time for the ACLU to push back against the various laws. In the meantime, the atmosphere of hatred expands, and, no doubt there's a hope on the right that they will take more federal power and be able to push their hatred to all the states. While the institutions should protect trans people, it feels really touch-and-go as to whether the mob will take control first.
posted by kokaku at 11:36 AM on February 15, 2023 [29 favorites]
To add on... it scares me just how many supposed lefties are willing to jump on the anti-trans bandwagon just because they can't be bothered to do the work to understand that trans people are not a problem to be solved or a question to be answered. We'd just like to be able to access gender-affirming care, housing, employment and, y'know, not fear for our lives.
posted by kokaku at 11:45 AM on February 15, 2023 [54 favorites]
posted by kokaku at 11:45 AM on February 15, 2023 [54 favorites]
I ask because I don't know. Why do queer people continue to read/support the NYT?
At least a couple of possibilities come to mind. First, because the NYT is not solely defined by its coverage/reporting on queer/trans/etc issues.
Second, because the queer/trans/etc community is not monolithic - some people might enjoy the NYT for its actual "hard news" (politics, crime, etc) coverage, others for its culture/style reporting, others for sports, etc.
posted by davidmsc at 11:49 AM on February 15, 2023 [1 favorite]
At least a couple of possibilities come to mind. First, because the NYT is not solely defined by its coverage/reporting on queer/trans/etc issues.
Second, because the queer/trans/etc community is not monolithic - some people might enjoy the NYT for its actual "hard news" (politics, crime, etc) coverage, others for its culture/style reporting, others for sports, etc.
posted by davidmsc at 11:49 AM on February 15, 2023 [1 favorite]
Curious Nu, thanks for sharing this letter.
posted by TheKaijuCommuter at 11:52 AM on February 15, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by TheKaijuCommuter at 11:52 AM on February 15, 2023 [2 favorites]
Queer person who reads the NYT. For lack of a genuine alternative, they are the paper of record, despite a long history of very poor decisions by its editorial board (Buckley's ass tattoo suggestions being a historically egregious example). I generally recognize editorialism as mostly functionally separate from journalism, e.g., WSJ and Financial Times. It's very unfortunate that the paper no longer has an ombudsperson.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 12:02 PM on February 15, 2023 [6 favorites]
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 12:02 PM on February 15, 2023 [6 favorites]
> Mr.Know-it-some: From the original article: "Three parents, all self-described liberals, told The Times that support groups had connected them with a legal group affiliated with the Alliance, called the Child and Parental Rights Campaign, which was founded in 2019 with the mission of defending children and parents against 'gender identity ideology,' according to its nonprofit disclosure forms. Its president has spoken at conferences about the 'existential threat to our culture' posed by the “transgender movement."
I can understand the wish for stronger criticism of the anti-trans hate groups, but I found the context clear."
While you may have found the context clear, I think what critics are picking up on is the uncritical repetition of "defending children and parents against 'gender identity ideology'" and "existential threat to our culture". If you're already well-versed in trans issues, this snippet can be taken as straight reportage (i.e.: a bare recitation of the facts, in this case, the fact that this is how this group represents itself). If you're less well-versed in trans issues, this can be taken as a sign that "gender identity ideology" is something that people can reasonably infer is something threatening (perhaps even existentially so) that needs to be defended against, particularly children.
posted by mhum at 12:07 PM on February 15, 2023 [29 favorites]
I can understand the wish for stronger criticism of the anti-trans hate groups, but I found the context clear."
While you may have found the context clear, I think what critics are picking up on is the uncritical repetition of "defending children and parents against 'gender identity ideology'" and "existential threat to our culture". If you're already well-versed in trans issues, this snippet can be taken as straight reportage (i.e.: a bare recitation of the facts, in this case, the fact that this is how this group represents itself). If you're less well-versed in trans issues, this can be taken as a sign that "gender identity ideology" is something that people can reasonably infer is something threatening (perhaps even existentially so) that needs to be defended against, particularly children.
posted by mhum at 12:07 PM on February 15, 2023 [29 favorites]
the NYT is not solely defined by its coverage/reporting on queer/trans/etc issues.
I doubt there's any big newspaper that doesn't print some anti-trans crap at some point. Blah blah "both sides" etc. etc. It would probably be hard to find any paper that doesn't do that (if one does, let us know?). Sometimes you see positive articles, sometimes you see negative ones. NYT is The Major Paper Of Everything, unfortunately. I don't pay for a subscription (my work gives them for free) and would not anyway, but trying to avoid the NYT is kinda impossible and sometimes you just need to be able to read the one important article you can only find there.
Protests along these lines may be the best we can do.
The world doesn't like weird. That has been my experience as a weird person. I'm not even statistically weird (so far not any flavor of non-cis, non-straight, am evil white lady, etc), I just have a personality that doesn't match anywhere else, but I have definitely suffered for that. I look "weird" when you see me in some respects. I can probably fake normal if I dress boring, but if I speak, people notice that I'm weird. I can't even explain my weird with a diagnosis 'cause I don't have one and can't get one, it 's just there and it's unsettling to the non-weird. People make sure I know that they hate that I exist and some have tried to destroy me. I presume I can never understand what it's like to be statistically weird/unusual/what have you on top of my busted-ass personality, but I presume it's horrible. If you're obviously Not One Of Us, at least some people are gonna react...poorly.
it's in our genes to freak the hell out if anyone's *gasp* different from us "It's different, kill it!" seems to be some creepy primal urge in us, and it takes some effort and especially some habituation for us as a species to get less murder-y when someone's weird in front of us. We are definitely habituating these days in trying to get people used to "weird" (any kind of weird, not just being trans). Some people grow and learn and calm down once they realize that The Weird Is Just Like Us. Some don't. What we need to do, and what we work towards, is habituation and acceptance.
I guess I end this with, the fight continues, by pointing out stuff like this and the damage it's doing.
posted by jenfullmoon at 12:33 PM on February 15, 2023 [8 favorites]
I doubt there's any big newspaper that doesn't print some anti-trans crap at some point. Blah blah "both sides" etc. etc. It would probably be hard to find any paper that doesn't do that (if one does, let us know?). Sometimes you see positive articles, sometimes you see negative ones. NYT is The Major Paper Of Everything, unfortunately. I don't pay for a subscription (my work gives them for free) and would not anyway, but trying to avoid the NYT is kinda impossible and sometimes you just need to be able to read the one important article you can only find there.
Protests along these lines may be the best we can do.
The world doesn't like weird. That has been my experience as a weird person. I'm not even statistically weird (so far not any flavor of non-cis, non-straight, am evil white lady, etc), I just have a personality that doesn't match anywhere else, but I have definitely suffered for that. I look "weird" when you see me in some respects. I can probably fake normal if I dress boring, but if I speak, people notice that I'm weird. I can't even explain my weird with a diagnosis 'cause I don't have one and can't get one, it 's just there and it's unsettling to the non-weird. People make sure I know that they hate that I exist and some have tried to destroy me. I presume I can never understand what it's like to be statistically weird/unusual/what have you on top of my busted-ass personality, but I presume it's horrible. If you're obviously Not One Of Us, at least some people are gonna react...poorly.
it's in our genes to freak the hell out if anyone's *gasp* different from us "It's different, kill it!" seems to be some creepy primal urge in us, and it takes some effort and especially some habituation for us as a species to get less murder-y when someone's weird in front of us. We are definitely habituating these days in trying to get people used to "weird" (any kind of weird, not just being trans). Some people grow and learn and calm down once they realize that The Weird Is Just Like Us. Some don't. What we need to do, and what we work towards, is habituation and acceptance.
I guess I end this with, the fight continues, by pointing out stuff like this and the damage it's doing.
posted by jenfullmoon at 12:33 PM on February 15, 2023 [8 favorites]
When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro.
posted by Chuffy at 12:39 PM on February 15, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by Chuffy at 12:39 PM on February 15, 2023 [1 favorite]
Yipes, that mention of the usage of "patient zero" from the Emily Bazelon article is really particularly disappointing, I guess because I've always liked her writing and her take on things from a legal perspective. I became convinced that it must have been an article from at least 5 or more years ago but sadly it was from 2022. And the term, aside from being offensive even if we were talking about a "disease", just is a really poor fit when talking about anything let alone transitioning when I went back to read it in context, to the point where I found it felt intentionally aggressive and anti-trans. Do better, everyone!
posted by rene_billingsworth at 12:41 PM on February 15, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by rene_billingsworth at 12:41 PM on February 15, 2023 [4 favorites]
With stuff like this, the NYTimes gets too wrapped up in its status as the self-proclaimed "paper of record" title, and it leaves itself open to manipulation by bad actors. The far-right knows how to slither its ideas into the mainstream - they just need a platform to say "People are talking about how trans people are forcing surgery on kids" or something, and then the NYTimes feels compelled to "neutrally" report on these claims. Examining them just propagates the original message, laundered with mainstream or centrist credibility, and it winds up with your out-of-touch Dem-voting boomer parent saying, "I don't know, it sounds like this trans stuff is bad news."
It's really crazy that after all this time, from birthers and gamergate to a whole presidency and insurgency, that a source like the goddamn New York Times doesn't understand the contours of information and power.
posted by entropone at 1:36 PM on February 15, 2023 [20 favorites]
It's really crazy that after all this time, from birthers and gamergate to a whole presidency and insurgency, that a source like the goddamn New York Times doesn't understand the contours of information and power.
posted by entropone at 1:36 PM on February 15, 2023 [20 favorites]
It's really crazy that after all this time, from birthers and gamergate to a whole presidency and insurgency, that a source like the goddamn New York Times doesn't understand the contours of information and power.
It's not that they don't know, it's that they're accultured to treat both sides of an argument the same.
posted by NoxAeternum at 1:46 PM on February 15, 2023 [6 favorites]
It's not that they don't know, it's that they're accultured to treat both sides of an argument the same.
posted by NoxAeternum at 1:46 PM on February 15, 2023 [6 favorites]
What did Upton Sinclair say? 'It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it'?
posted by mikurski at 1:58 PM on February 15, 2023 [11 favorites]
posted by mikurski at 1:58 PM on February 15, 2023 [11 favorites]
Hear, HEAR!
I’m a queer NYT reader - I haven’t found any other source as reliable for breadth of reportage and investigative journalism that I can take in before breakfast. It’s flawed, and the past 2-3 years in particular have been littered with Aging/Rich Liberal bullshit, both in opinion and reportage. But for me that’s a reason to fight, rather than leave.
posted by rrrrrrrrrt at 1:59 PM on February 15, 2023 [5 favorites]
I’m a queer NYT reader - I haven’t found any other source as reliable for breadth of reportage and investigative journalism that I can take in before breakfast. It’s flawed, and the past 2-3 years in particular have been littered with Aging/Rich Liberal bullshit, both in opinion and reportage. But for me that’s a reason to fight, rather than leave.
posted by rrrrrrrrrt at 1:59 PM on February 15, 2023 [5 favorites]
Resistance to this sort of thing would be rather more effective were it to center around how it's being used to distract us from the pillaging of society by the oligarchy. Trying to argue with haters has the paradoxical effect of quasi-legitimizing their arguments.
posted by outgrown_hobnail at 2:10 PM on February 15, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by outgrown_hobnail at 2:10 PM on February 15, 2023 [1 favorite]
I don't think it's the usual journalistic both-sides thing.. imo, it's actually a pretty sophisticated attempt to plant doubt about trans youth in particular. I was really struck by this piece published a couple days ago, which is ostensibly not about trans people at all - it's a magazine-style health story about how the "TikTok-induced tourette's" wave from 2021 has started to recede, through the lens of a single teenager's story. But the teen they picked for the story just happens to be trans, and there's a whole section in the piece about just how odd it is that this crazy tiktok fad was particularly common among trans kids and gender nonconforming kids, with one doctor quoted as saying "there’s something going on here." It's very clearly hinting at a particular conclusion - that all this gender crap is just these damn kids getting their brains scrambled by their damn phones - but it never quite makes it explicit. I don't think articles like this (or the awful "poor little parents grief-stricken that their kids are being affirmed at school" one linked in the letter) happen by accident.
posted by theodolite at 2:20 PM on February 15, 2023 [40 favorites]
posted by theodolite at 2:20 PM on February 15, 2023 [40 favorites]
The usual suspects are at it w/ the reactions. The message needs to be really sharp to hit these people. Their arguments need to be addressed, and that is probably the most tiring thankless job there is, to just be in the trenches refuting things.
posted by fleacircus at 2:42 PM on February 15, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by fleacircus at 2:42 PM on February 15, 2023 [3 favorites]
Trying to argue with haters has the paradoxical effect of quasi-legitimizing their arguments.
Unfortunately, this kind of thing needs to be fought in all forms anywhere the weeds spring up, because it's feeding legislation (300+ anti-trans or anti-lgbtq bills introduced so far this year nationwide with enough passing to make a tangible difference in people's lives) and furthering a general atmosphere of othering.
Trans people are just the first group they're going to go after, because that's how this goes historically.
posted by kokaku at 3:29 PM on February 15, 2023 [9 favorites]
Unfortunately, this kind of thing needs to be fought in all forms anywhere the weeds spring up, because it's feeding legislation (300+ anti-trans or anti-lgbtq bills introduced so far this year nationwide with enough passing to make a tangible difference in people's lives) and furthering a general atmosphere of othering.
Trans people are just the first group they're going to go after, because that's how this goes historically.
posted by kokaku at 3:29 PM on February 15, 2023 [9 favorites]
Yeah, I read the NYT. Unfortunately, the price one pays for a plethora of excellent, daily, and wide-ranging journalism, in 2023, is a regular dose of articles about why people like me are a dire threat to the mental comfort of the bourgeoisie. (And in the case of the NYT, a regular shot of pure bunkum about national/presidential politics. This is why NYT Pitchbot exists.) I also read The Economist, which is much blatantly worse in its stance on trans issues, not to mention it has many economic stances and basic world assumptions that I do not share.
Cutting myself off from these publications is not going to teach any of them a lesson, at this point in time. It's only going to make me unhappier for losing access to otherwise good sources of information. If cis people are not being asked why they still read the NYT, then please do not ask LGBTQ people this question. It sort of implies that being a sexual/gender minority means that you are obligated to cut yourself off from major aspects of daily American life. Consider how this question really sounds.
BTW, while it's more of a Western regional paper, the L.A. Times still does a lot of great reporting, and under new ownership its editorial page has become notably more progressive and interesting. They are not entertaining bullshit scaremongering about gender, to the best of my awareness. Jonah Goldberg is extremely annoying, and George Skelton might as well be called ChatBoomerGPT, but other than that, no one is spewing nonsense opinions everywhere. If you're interested in water, immigration, prisons, entertainment, etc, you will find things of value here.
posted by desert outpost at 3:32 PM on February 15, 2023 [26 favorites]
Cutting myself off from these publications is not going to teach any of them a lesson, at this point in time. It's only going to make me unhappier for losing access to otherwise good sources of information. If cis people are not being asked why they still read the NYT, then please do not ask LGBTQ people this question. It sort of implies that being a sexual/gender minority means that you are obligated to cut yourself off from major aspects of daily American life. Consider how this question really sounds.
BTW, while it's more of a Western regional paper, the L.A. Times still does a lot of great reporting, and under new ownership its editorial page has become notably more progressive and interesting. They are not entertaining bullshit scaremongering about gender, to the best of my awareness. Jonah Goldberg is extremely annoying, and George Skelton might as well be called ChatBoomerGPT, but other than that, no one is spewing nonsense opinions everywhere. If you're interested in water, immigration, prisons, entertainment, etc, you will find things of value here.
posted by desert outpost at 3:32 PM on February 15, 2023 [26 favorites]
It's not that they don't know, it's that they're accultured to treat both sides of an argument the same.
Yeah, and it's a huge blind spot. Like, surely they know that "a lie can travel around the world and back again while the truth is lacing up its boots," but then they wind up treating the lie as value neutral, reporting on it in a way that puts wind in its damn sails!
I don't know. I think it's incredible naiveté on their part, and it seems to be connected to the aristocratic nature of their leadership. This pompous view of the righteous neutrality of information - it's just so, so wrong in the 21st century.
posted by entropone at 3:42 PM on February 15, 2023
Yeah, and it's a huge blind spot. Like, surely they know that "a lie can travel around the world and back again while the truth is lacing up its boots," but then they wind up treating the lie as value neutral, reporting on it in a way that puts wind in its damn sails!
I don't know. I think it's incredible naiveté on their part, and it seems to be connected to the aristocratic nature of their leadership. This pompous view of the righteous neutrality of information - it's just so, so wrong in the 21st century.
posted by entropone at 3:42 PM on February 15, 2023
If cis people are not being asked why they still read the NYT, then please do not ask LGBTQ people this question
My thoughts exactly.
posted by tigrrrlily at 3:57 PM on February 15, 2023 [21 favorites]
My thoughts exactly.
posted by tigrrrlily at 3:57 PM on February 15, 2023 [21 favorites]
My name doesn’t seem to have shown up on the list of signatories yet, despite filling out the form earlier today.
posted by Going To Maine at 3:58 PM on February 15, 2023
posted by Going To Maine at 3:58 PM on February 15, 2023
It sort of implies that being a sexual/gender minority means that you are obligated to cut yourself off from major aspects of daily American life.
I think there are also a lot of concrete ways to be an ally that don't involve trying to convince the editorial board at the NYT that they are making positive choices that actively help make life worse for trans Americans. Ways like hosting someone for a year who was transitioning, and who had to escape their Mormon family - or donating to groups like Trans Lifeline and the Ingersoll Center, local to me.
There was a time when I thought unsubscribing would have an effect, like during the Trump years. Specifically after the NYTimes reported on the day-to-day lives of a neo-Nazi couple; stuff like what their favorite ice cream was (really). This paper's flirtation with pro-Nazi coverage was in late 2017, around the time when Trump voters - with Trump's implicit blessing - were supporting the murder of a left-wing protester in Charlottesville, and Trump himself was setting up concentration camps for immigrants in Texas.
I do not want to be cynical but I honestly suspect the only people that can affect immediate policy changes at the NYTimes are human, non-pension-fund shareholders with majority voting control over the company. And I am simply not rich enough to be one of them. My leaving over their pro-Nazi reporting did nothing, ultimately. This country was lucky enough to survive the January 6 Republican domestic terror attack, and all I feel I can do is cross my fingers that, maybe, the paper of record won't flirt with Fascism so easily, next time.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 4:23 PM on February 15, 2023 [4 favorites]
I think there are also a lot of concrete ways to be an ally that don't involve trying to convince the editorial board at the NYT that they are making positive choices that actively help make life worse for trans Americans. Ways like hosting someone for a year who was transitioning, and who had to escape their Mormon family - or donating to groups like Trans Lifeline and the Ingersoll Center, local to me.
There was a time when I thought unsubscribing would have an effect, like during the Trump years. Specifically after the NYTimes reported on the day-to-day lives of a neo-Nazi couple; stuff like what their favorite ice cream was (really). This paper's flirtation with pro-Nazi coverage was in late 2017, around the time when Trump voters - with Trump's implicit blessing - were supporting the murder of a left-wing protester in Charlottesville, and Trump himself was setting up concentration camps for immigrants in Texas.
I do not want to be cynical but I honestly suspect the only people that can affect immediate policy changes at the NYTimes are human, non-pension-fund shareholders with majority voting control over the company. And I am simply not rich enough to be one of them. My leaving over their pro-Nazi reporting did nothing, ultimately. This country was lucky enough to survive the January 6 Republican domestic terror attack, and all I feel I can do is cross my fingers that, maybe, the paper of record won't flirt with Fascism so easily, next time.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 4:23 PM on February 15, 2023 [4 favorites]
My name doesn’t seem to have shown up on the list of signatories yet, despite filling out the form earlier today.
It would be very poor planning indeed if the names were posted automatically, without review.
posted by Kutsuwamushi at 4:51 PM on February 15, 2023 [4 favorites]
It would be very poor planning indeed if the names were posted automatically, without review.
posted by Kutsuwamushi at 4:51 PM on February 15, 2023 [4 favorites]
I mean the form is just an email address and name and a checkbox. Mostly I’m just curious if other people are also stuck in a holding pattern
posted by Going To Maine at 5:01 PM on February 15, 2023
posted by Going To Maine at 5:01 PM on February 15, 2023
Good. Every time I read one of these articles my blood pressure creeps just that bit much higher. Emily Bazelon, even!!!
posted by praemunire at 5:41 PM on February 15, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by praemunire at 5:41 PM on February 15, 2023 [1 favorite]
GLAAD giving a letter at the same time was like a gift to the NYT to weasel out of acknowledging anything in this one, smdh.
posted by fleacircus at 6:09 PM on February 15, 2023
posted by fleacircus at 6:09 PM on February 15, 2023
the NYT responds
and by responds, i mean doubles down on their commitment to ignorance and harm
posted by kokaku at 7:59 PM on February 15, 2023 [11 favorites]
and by responds, i mean doubles down on their commitment to ignorance and harm
posted by kokaku at 7:59 PM on February 15, 2023 [11 favorites]
I'm just so fucking tired.
Humans are humans.
Humans doing their own thing and hurting no one deserve the same respect as everyone else.
Children aren't property. They are humans in the process of developing increasing capabilities for self care. Their capacity for enlightened self-determination often runs far in advance of their capability to satisfy all their own needs. Parents own a duty of care and nurturing to their children, not a right to thwarting their growth and development.
Society exists as a consensual entity through which we support each others' efforts to satisfy needs and pursue wants. Living openly as who you know yourself to be is a fairly fundamental need.
Who you are is your own business.
How you treat others is your responsibility.
Every article questioning the morality on consensual acts and personal choices which have no bearing on the lives of others is by definition garbage. They all rest on unchallenged violations of boundaries between public discourse and private lives.
The NYT is many things, but as it is first and foremost in terms of survival an economic entity, it reflects the values and desires of the monied forces exerting their control over it. As it is a well-known and respected venue, particularly within the segment of the US population which controls most of the US's resources and therefore politics, it is naturally an attractive target for exercise of power to influence the direction of society. So what we see is essentially rich fascist money with anti-queer agendas aggressively working to sell their hatred to sympathetic ears amongst the powerful, either by direct argument or by mustering public opinion to drive legislation. So long as money drives content, the values of the money in control will be reflected. It does not take much of a leap to presume that this implies the bulk of the wealth in the US lies under control of individuals sympathetic to these ideas.
I wish all who write these articles and all who repeat their trash a hearty fuck off into the sun, forever.
And yes, I am a trans woman. And I'm done with these debates.
posted by allium cepa at 8:06 PM on February 15, 2023 [23 favorites]
Humans are humans.
Humans doing their own thing and hurting no one deserve the same respect as everyone else.
Children aren't property. They are humans in the process of developing increasing capabilities for self care. Their capacity for enlightened self-determination often runs far in advance of their capability to satisfy all their own needs. Parents own a duty of care and nurturing to their children, not a right to thwarting their growth and development.
Society exists as a consensual entity through which we support each others' efforts to satisfy needs and pursue wants. Living openly as who you know yourself to be is a fairly fundamental need.
Who you are is your own business.
How you treat others is your responsibility.
Every article questioning the morality on consensual acts and personal choices which have no bearing on the lives of others is by definition garbage. They all rest on unchallenged violations of boundaries between public discourse and private lives.
The NYT is many things, but as it is first and foremost in terms of survival an economic entity, it reflects the values and desires of the monied forces exerting their control over it. As it is a well-known and respected venue, particularly within the segment of the US population which controls most of the US's resources and therefore politics, it is naturally an attractive target for exercise of power to influence the direction of society. So what we see is essentially rich fascist money with anti-queer agendas aggressively working to sell their hatred to sympathetic ears amongst the powerful, either by direct argument or by mustering public opinion to drive legislation. So long as money drives content, the values of the money in control will be reflected. It does not take much of a leap to presume that this implies the bulk of the wealth in the US lies under control of individuals sympathetic to these ideas.
I wish all who write these articles and all who repeat their trash a hearty fuck off into the sun, forever.
And yes, I am a trans woman. And I'm done with these debates.
posted by allium cepa at 8:06 PM on February 15, 2023 [23 favorites]
The Flirtations: On Children (two verses from the Kahlil Gibran poem of the same name, set to music)
posted by eviemath at 8:25 PM on February 15, 2023
posted by eviemath at 8:25 PM on February 15, 2023
The response is just a blanket rejection of the letter! Astoundingly blind, and gaslighting to boot. (This episode of Death Panel, which is on the Bazelon article and is linked in the letter, is quite bracing and a good reminder that, if you think that the PR dude is deceiving you, it’s because he is.
posted by Going To Maine at 9:51 PM on February 15, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by Going To Maine at 9:51 PM on February 15, 2023 [3 favorites]
> the NYT respondsWe investigated ourselves and the results are in: we're super swell, and any criticism is inevitably due to biased people who fail to understand just how truly swell we really are.
posted by Nerd of the North at 9:54 PM on February 15, 2023 [22 favorites]
I also liked this little thread from Jon Ralston. Parents, love your children.
posted by Going To Maine at 9:54 PM on February 15, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by Going To Maine at 9:54 PM on February 15, 2023 [3 favorites]
I ask because I don't know. Why do queer people continue to read/support the NYT?
A better question is why people (mostly cis) still post links to it (and the Guardian) to places like mefi. Read it yourself if you decide that the value of the journalism outweighs the bullshit and you don't see yourself as affected by it. Don't advertise it or push it on others - you don't know that they won't buy into the bullshit.
posted by Dysk at 11:38 PM on February 15, 2023 [5 favorites]
A better question is why people (mostly cis) still post links to it (and the Guardian) to places like mefi. Read it yourself if you decide that the value of the journalism outweighs the bullshit and you don't see yourself as affected by it. Don't advertise it or push it on others - you don't know that they won't buy into the bullshit.
posted by Dysk at 11:38 PM on February 15, 2023 [5 favorites]
the NYT responds
Unsurprisingly, a couple paragraphs of substance-free PR blather which translated means "we don't give a fuck".
posted by Pyrogenesis at 11:56 PM on February 15, 2023 [1 favorite]
Unsurprisingly, a couple paragraphs of substance-free PR blather which translated means "we don't give a fuck".
posted by Pyrogenesis at 11:56 PM on February 15, 2023 [1 favorite]
Even The Guardian, which is good on a lot of issues like climate change and unions and homelessness, is terribly transphobic :(
posted by chariot pulled by cassowaries at 1:12 AM on February 16, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by chariot pulled by cassowaries at 1:12 AM on February 16, 2023 [3 favorites]
I called to cancel yesterday and they offered to reduce the All Access plan from $25//month down to $5/month for a year. So even if you are hesitant to cancel you can reduce their revenue for a year.
posted by waving at 4:02 AM on February 16, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by waving at 4:02 AM on February 16, 2023 [2 favorites]
Jo Livingstone, one of the organizers, has a good interview in Hell Gate.
posted by threementholsandafuneral at 4:18 AM on February 16, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by threementholsandafuneral at 4:18 AM on February 16, 2023 [1 favorite]
Parker Molloy: Why I Signed the NYT Letter (And You Should, Too)
posted by box at 4:55 AM on February 16, 2023 [6 favorites]
posted by box at 4:55 AM on February 16, 2023 [6 favorites]
Boy, y'all are really going to love today's NYT op-ed.
So why would anyone accuse her of transphobia? Surely, Rowling must have played some part, you might think.
The answer is straightforward: Because she has asserted the right to spaces for biological women only, such as domestic abuse shelters and sex-segregated prisons. Because she has insisted that when it comes to determining a person’s legal gender status, self-declared gender identity is insufficient. Because she has expressed skepticism about phrases like “people who menstruate” in reference to biological women. Because she has defended herself and, far more important, supported others, including detransitioners and feminist scholars, who have come under attack from trans activists. And because she followed on Twitter and praised some of the work of Magdalen Berns, a lesbian feminist who had made incendiary comments about transgender people.
You might disagree — perhaps strongly — with Rowling’s views and actions here. You may believe that the prevalence of violence against transgender people means that airing any views contrary to those of vocal trans activists will aggravate animus toward a vulnerable population.
But nothing Rowling has said qualifies as transphobic. She is not disputing the existence of gender dysphoria. She has never voiced opposition to allowing people to transition under evidence-based therapeutic and medical care. She is not denying transgender people equal pay or housing. There is no evidence that she is putting trans people “in danger,” as has been claimed, nor is she denying their right to exist.
posted by outgrown_hobnail at 5:30 AM on February 16, 2023 [6 favorites]
So why would anyone accuse her of transphobia? Surely, Rowling must have played some part, you might think.
The answer is straightforward: Because she has asserted the right to spaces for biological women only, such as domestic abuse shelters and sex-segregated prisons. Because she has insisted that when it comes to determining a person’s legal gender status, self-declared gender identity is insufficient. Because she has expressed skepticism about phrases like “people who menstruate” in reference to biological women. Because she has defended herself and, far more important, supported others, including detransitioners and feminist scholars, who have come under attack from trans activists. And because she followed on Twitter and praised some of the work of Magdalen Berns, a lesbian feminist who had made incendiary comments about transgender people.
You might disagree — perhaps strongly — with Rowling’s views and actions here. You may believe that the prevalence of violence against transgender people means that airing any views contrary to those of vocal trans activists will aggravate animus toward a vulnerable population.
But nothing Rowling has said qualifies as transphobic. She is not disputing the existence of gender dysphoria. She has never voiced opposition to allowing people to transition under evidence-based therapeutic and medical care. She is not denying transgender people equal pay or housing. There is no evidence that she is putting trans people “in danger,” as has been claimed, nor is she denying their right to exist.
posted by outgrown_hobnail at 5:30 AM on February 16, 2023 [6 favorites]
It is straight-up gaslighting to claim that "[insiting] that when it comes to determining a person’s legal gender status, self-declared gender identity is insufficient" -- which the writer admits is Rowling's stance -- does not qualify as transphobic.
posted by Gelatin at 6:29 AM on February 16, 2023 [22 favorites]
posted by Gelatin at 6:29 AM on February 16, 2023 [22 favorites]
The fact that they posted a defense of Rowling the very same week as a trans teen was murdered in a hate crime in the UK has got to be deliberate. She even makes a wierd and incoherent attempt to shoehorn Rushdie's stabbing into the mix for extra WTFery.
posted by Glegrinof the Pig-Man at 6:36 AM on February 16, 2023 [18 favorites]
posted by Glegrinof the Pig-Man at 6:36 AM on February 16, 2023 [18 favorites]
Also, "You may believe that the prevalence of violence against transgender people means that airing any views contrary to those of vocal trans activists will aggravate animus toward a vulnerable population" is phrasing made in unbelievably bad faith. I would say shame on the NYT for publishing this garbage, but then, here we are.
And anyway, it's long been clear that the NYT has accepted "printing all kinds of dishonest claims" as a price they are willing to pay for including a rich variety of conservative viewpoints on their op-ed page. Feh.
posted by Gelatin at 6:57 AM on February 16, 2023 [3 favorites]
And anyway, it's long been clear that the NYT has accepted "printing all kinds of dishonest claims" as a price they are willing to pay for including a rich variety of conservative viewpoints on their op-ed page. Feh.
posted by Gelatin at 6:57 AM on February 16, 2023 [3 favorites]
The critical part here is that normal, well-meaning people might think, "so how do people know they are trans? Could a tween ever be uncertain about their gender identity but still be cis?" or even "A lot of people seem to be rushing into this business"...and then not really care that much anymore or possibly try to look at actual research based on trans people's experience.
I mean, there are lots of things that I disapprove of at least a little bit. I won't make a list, but I can grumble about the youth and the Olds and the modern tendency to Emotional and Sexual Recklessness with the best of them. And so I shake my head when someone does something I disapprove of, maybe make a snotty remark to my partner and then let it go, because life is too short.
Alternatively, there are things I used to disapprove of that I now accept because I read some stuff. I used to disapprove of sex work out of a misguided kind of "feminism", for instance, but I read some stuff and have a couple of sex worker friends and now I know I was wrong. I feel like that's pretty normal - people don't turn on a dime in the middle of an internet argument, but people do change their opinions over time.
That's normal people behavior. These creeps, these fascists - they see a tiny number of people doing something they don't like and they don't want to let go because they love self-righteously frothing at the mouth and inciting stochastic violence. Some of them have ultra-creepy sexual hangups and turn out to be sexual abusers, some of them just like the thrill.
~~
I have to say, by the way, that it is scary to be trans right now.
Eventually, if they win in 2024, they will not only ban trans care for adults across the country but probably do whatever they can to ban us from employment. Certainly, they won't let trans people hold any job that involves working around anyone under about 25. And that's the optimistic scenario; the others are much darker.
posted by Frowner at 7:01 AM on February 16, 2023 [22 favorites]
I mean, there are lots of things that I disapprove of at least a little bit. I won't make a list, but I can grumble about the youth and the Olds and the modern tendency to Emotional and Sexual Recklessness with the best of them. And so I shake my head when someone does something I disapprove of, maybe make a snotty remark to my partner and then let it go, because life is too short.
Alternatively, there are things I used to disapprove of that I now accept because I read some stuff. I used to disapprove of sex work out of a misguided kind of "feminism", for instance, but I read some stuff and have a couple of sex worker friends and now I know I was wrong. I feel like that's pretty normal - people don't turn on a dime in the middle of an internet argument, but people do change their opinions over time.
That's normal people behavior. These creeps, these fascists - they see a tiny number of people doing something they don't like and they don't want to let go because they love self-righteously frothing at the mouth and inciting stochastic violence. Some of them have ultra-creepy sexual hangups and turn out to be sexual abusers, some of them just like the thrill.
~~
I have to say, by the way, that it is scary to be trans right now.
Eventually, if they win in 2024, they will not only ban trans care for adults across the country but probably do whatever they can to ban us from employment. Certainly, they won't let trans people hold any job that involves working around anyone under about 25. And that's the optimistic scenario; the others are much darker.
posted by Frowner at 7:01 AM on February 16, 2023 [22 favorites]
To clarify - it's not just that people disapprove or "disagree" about trans issues, it's that they enjoy the power that their obsession gives them, they enjoy the feeling of hatred. It's ridiculous and wrong to "disagree" with someone else's gender, but it's violent and disgusting to go from a private opinion to public, career-making incitement of violence.
posted by Frowner at 7:07 AM on February 16, 2023 [11 favorites]
posted by Frowner at 7:07 AM on February 16, 2023 [11 favorites]
The New York Times continues to make its priorities clear (Defector)
posted by warriorqueen at 7:11 AM on February 16, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by warriorqueen at 7:11 AM on February 16, 2023 [4 favorites]
Any excuse to re-up the New Yorker’s knifing of Panels Paul is a good excuse.
posted by Going To Maine at 7:23 AM on February 16, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by Going To Maine at 7:23 AM on February 16, 2023 [4 favorites]
That's a quite brilliant letter, and I'm very pleased to see it articulate so clearly how the NYT is the paper of record when it comes to being an all-too-reliable mirror and amplifier of contemporary bias.
I stopped giving the NYT my money in the last year as they've swung thoroughly behind an anti-trans agenda. But the Guardian is also pushing the same message, and I genuinely don't understand why this issue seems to be the one that Liberal Media as a whole has decided is where they're drawing a line.
Could it be related to way the rise of Trump and the right has been such a business boon for them? Are they in thrall to a new audience or an old set of money? Or, as the NYT's history shows, are we just too kind in retrospect to records that were never as progressive at the time as they all like to include in their brand now?
posted by onebuttonmonkey at 7:27 AM on February 16, 2023 [1 favorite]
I stopped giving the NYT my money in the last year as they've swung thoroughly behind an anti-trans agenda. But the Guardian is also pushing the same message, and I genuinely don't understand why this issue seems to be the one that Liberal Media as a whole has decided is where they're drawing a line.
Could it be related to way the rise of Trump and the right has been such a business boon for them? Are they in thrall to a new audience or an old set of money? Or, as the NYT's history shows, are we just too kind in retrospect to records that were never as progressive at the time as they all like to include in their brand now?
posted by onebuttonmonkey at 7:27 AM on February 16, 2023 [1 favorite]
I mean, I personally am a little skeptical of "a transgender woman is a woman, full stop",
Why express this? It is not harmful to accept people for who they are.
posted by tiny frying pan at 7:34 AM on February 16, 2023 [19 favorites]
Why express this? It is not harmful to accept people for who they are.
posted by tiny frying pan at 7:34 AM on February 16, 2023 [19 favorites]
I am so fucking tired of having to justify my existence. I am so fucking tired of having trans lives painted with a single broad brush.
There probably aren't two trans people with the same experience of figuring out who they were, how they came out, whether they were supported or not, how they move through the world, how they identify and present themselves, what transitioning means for them.
And yet, here we are discussing this over and over because the powers that be are just talking in hypotheticals, just asking questions, just passing laws, just creating an atmosphere of fear instead of empathy and understanding. And yet, I have to stay on top of these things because they affect my life, even if I live in and visit safe states right now.
Meanwhile being trans is the most joyous, most vibrant, most gloriously alive I've ever felt, and it took me way too long to be able to get there because of so many things. I want trans kids and trans adults to be able to have their lives without decades of self-suppression and fear. I am so fucking tired.
posted by kokaku at 7:44 AM on February 16, 2023 [37 favorites]
There probably aren't two trans people with the same experience of figuring out who they were, how they came out, whether they were supported or not, how they move through the world, how they identify and present themselves, what transitioning means for them.
And yet, here we are discussing this over and over because the powers that be are just talking in hypotheticals, just asking questions, just passing laws, just creating an atmosphere of fear instead of empathy and understanding. And yet, I have to stay on top of these things because they affect my life, even if I live in and visit safe states right now.
Meanwhile being trans is the most joyous, most vibrant, most gloriously alive I've ever felt, and it took me way too long to be able to get there because of so many things. I want trans kids and trans adults to be able to have their lives without decades of self-suppression and fear. I am so fucking tired.
posted by kokaku at 7:44 AM on February 16, 2023 [37 favorites]
Jesus christ NYT with this Pamela Paul thing.
Flame away.
I mean, just don't post a comment you feel the need to tag this onto. The part of your brain that prompted that acknowledgement that you were posting something you expected to piss people off is the same part of your brain you can use as an early warning sign to abort the "I'm gonna express skepticism about trans identities in the thread about the ongoing high-visibility attacks on trans identities" before it gets out of your hands. Read the room and just maybe fuckin' don't.
posted by cortex at 7:55 AM on February 16, 2023 [41 favorites]
Flame away.
I mean, just don't post a comment you feel the need to tag this onto. The part of your brain that prompted that acknowledgement that you were posting something you expected to piss people off is the same part of your brain you can use as an early warning sign to abort the "I'm gonna express skepticism about trans identities in the thread about the ongoing high-visibility attacks on trans identities" before it gets out of your hands. Read the room and just maybe fuckin' don't.
posted by cortex at 7:55 AM on February 16, 2023 [41 favorites]
I think that so much of this is about the joy of fascism. It's not that people don't understand or are scared of unfamiliar ways of being. There's a world of difference between even an asshole at work or a cold parent and the fascist campaigners. For the fascists, transphobia is affirmative - it gives them a sense of power, a sense of purpose, a bond, a community...an excuse to enjoy violence.
Most people aren't committed transphobes or homophobes, but most people have the potential to do cruel things because we derive pleasure from it. In healthy times, in healthy places, we get wise to that, we get wise to our own ability to enjoy, to derive pleasure from cruelty. We get wise to it and so even if we're angry or afraid or insulted we do our best to act fairly and to judge our actions by our moral standards.
It's emotional work to push yourself to look clearly at unfamiliar things or things that you've been told are wrong and bad. That's the work of making yourself into a decent person. I grew up in a left-leaning home but I still grew up with a bunch of bad ideas about how the world should be and it has sometimes felt like physical work to pry myself open. But again, I think that's a normal way of being and I think that it's what people in healthy societies do.
These fascists - they know better. They're people who have grown up in luxury and ease. They're not people who missed out on the chance to figure themselves out because they grew up in limited situations or suffered a lot of trauma. They're just people who like the power and community that they get from transphobia. They like it - fascism is fun and satisfying if you're fairly sure that the boot will never be on your neck. A lot of them probably "have trans friends".
One of the reasons that it's a waste of time to argue with these people - and that letter was not an "argument", it was a political gesture to exert pressure - is that they like what they are doing. They're not confused or scared or misinformed, they're having fun.
posted by Frowner at 8:02 AM on February 16, 2023 [19 favorites]
Most people aren't committed transphobes or homophobes, but most people have the potential to do cruel things because we derive pleasure from it. In healthy times, in healthy places, we get wise to that, we get wise to our own ability to enjoy, to derive pleasure from cruelty. We get wise to it and so even if we're angry or afraid or insulted we do our best to act fairly and to judge our actions by our moral standards.
It's emotional work to push yourself to look clearly at unfamiliar things or things that you've been told are wrong and bad. That's the work of making yourself into a decent person. I grew up in a left-leaning home but I still grew up with a bunch of bad ideas about how the world should be and it has sometimes felt like physical work to pry myself open. But again, I think that's a normal way of being and I think that it's what people in healthy societies do.
These fascists - they know better. They're people who have grown up in luxury and ease. They're not people who missed out on the chance to figure themselves out because they grew up in limited situations or suffered a lot of trauma. They're just people who like the power and community that they get from transphobia. They like it - fascism is fun and satisfying if you're fairly sure that the boot will never be on your neck. A lot of them probably "have trans friends".
One of the reasons that it's a waste of time to argue with these people - and that letter was not an "argument", it was a political gesture to exert pressure - is that they like what they are doing. They're not confused or scared or misinformed, they're having fun.
posted by Frowner at 8:02 AM on February 16, 2023 [19 favorites]
Thank you cortex.
posted by kokaku at 8:03 AM on February 16, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by kokaku at 8:03 AM on February 16, 2023 [3 favorites]
Mod note: One comment deleted for violating the Guidelines. Questioning the validity of trans identity is not acceptable in any way. This is a Trans-Inclusive space. Period.
posted by Brandon Blatcher (staff) at 8:18 AM on February 16, 2023 [45 favorites]
posted by Brandon Blatcher (staff) at 8:18 AM on February 16, 2023 [45 favorites]
They're not confused or scared or misinformed, they're having fun.
They are, I think, wittingly or unwittingly, starting from the assumption that trans people are a strange exception that shouldn’t really be allowed to exist unless they pop into being sui generis as adults. Parallels, I think, to Baldwin’s framing of racism as fundamentally a problem for white people to deal with - black folks are here, you’ve got to accept it.
posted by Going To Maine at 8:19 AM on February 16, 2023 [3 favorites]
They are, I think, wittingly or unwittingly, starting from the assumption that trans people are a strange exception that shouldn’t really be allowed to exist unless they pop into being sui generis as adults. Parallels, I think, to Baldwin’s framing of racism as fundamentally a problem for white people to deal with - black folks are here, you’ve got to accept it.
posted by Going To Maine at 8:19 AM on February 16, 2023 [3 favorites]
They are, I think, wittingly or unwittingly, starting from the assumption that trans people are a strange exception that shouldn’t really be allowed to exist unless they pop into being sui generis as adults.
I strongly disagree that there is any form or shape or type of trans or genderfluid or any other form of gender expression outside of suit-wearing men and dress-wearing women that these people will eventually be okay with. They're going after kids getting hormone therapy because they've seen how effective "But what about the children???!??!" is, and many of them are openly admitting that this is only Step One. And the last step isn't "All trans people are gone"; they're going to keep going through the rest of the alphabet just like everyone else who has ever started up against The Trans Menace.
posted by Etrigan at 8:29 AM on February 16, 2023 [12 favorites]
I strongly disagree that there is any form or shape or type of trans or genderfluid or any other form of gender expression outside of suit-wearing men and dress-wearing women that these people will eventually be okay with. They're going after kids getting hormone therapy because they've seen how effective "But what about the children???!??!" is, and many of them are openly admitting that this is only Step One. And the last step isn't "All trans people are gone"; they're going to keep going through the rest of the alphabet just like everyone else who has ever started up against The Trans Menace.
posted by Etrigan at 8:29 AM on February 16, 2023 [12 favorites]
The other thing is - people wonder why the NYT, etc, publish these articles right when there's been a series of horrific attacks on trans people - don't they understand what's going on? And the thing is, they are publishing these articles because there have been a series of horrifying attacks on trans people.
A lot of people would see an incredible tragedy in the news and think, "I'm not sure about all this gender stuff but obviously we need to stop this kind of thing". A lot of people would see a face on a situation and their opinions would change or at least soften.
Fascists get affirmative pleasure out of transphobia. I assume that for the NYT it's a kind of weird sadism/masochism where they like thinking "I am FORCED to do these things EVEN THOUGH they create STOCHASTIC VIOLENCE because my PURE MORALS demand that I ask the HARD QUESTIONS, it's so sad for me, an victim, because the purity of my heart leads to things that I, a kind and progressive person with trans friends, would never want, like trans people being murdered BUT THAT'S WHAT TRUTH DEMANDS". It's a disavowal that is itself part of the fun of fascism, kidding on the square, the upper class version of pepes.
If there's a wave of sympathy for trans people, that threatens their enjoyment - both practically, because it may become safer to be trans, and psychically, because it's harder to sustain the disavowal. So they leap in right when that sympathy might arise, either to point out that THEY are the real victims (like the piece on Rowling) or to suggest gently that MAYBE the trans people DESERVE IT ACTUALLY when you really THINK ABOUT IT.
They publish this stuff now because it's a way of protecting and affirming their enjoyment. Again, it's not misunderstanding or insensitivity, it's fun.
posted by Frowner at 8:29 AM on February 16, 2023 [16 favorites]
A lot of people would see an incredible tragedy in the news and think, "I'm not sure about all this gender stuff but obviously we need to stop this kind of thing". A lot of people would see a face on a situation and their opinions would change or at least soften.
Fascists get affirmative pleasure out of transphobia. I assume that for the NYT it's a kind of weird sadism/masochism where they like thinking "I am FORCED to do these things EVEN THOUGH they create STOCHASTIC VIOLENCE because my PURE MORALS demand that I ask the HARD QUESTIONS, it's so sad for me, an victim, because the purity of my heart leads to things that I, a kind and progressive person with trans friends, would never want, like trans people being murdered BUT THAT'S WHAT TRUTH DEMANDS". It's a disavowal that is itself part of the fun of fascism, kidding on the square, the upper class version of pepes.
If there's a wave of sympathy for trans people, that threatens their enjoyment - both practically, because it may become safer to be trans, and psychically, because it's harder to sustain the disavowal. So they leap in right when that sympathy might arise, either to point out that THEY are the real victims (like the piece on Rowling) or to suggest gently that MAYBE the trans people DESERVE IT ACTUALLY when you really THINK ABOUT IT.
They publish this stuff now because it's a way of protecting and affirming their enjoyment. Again, it's not misunderstanding or insensitivity, it's fun.
posted by Frowner at 8:29 AM on February 16, 2023 [16 favorites]
Folks, can I propose a simpler explanation? As far as I can tell, the editorial board of the NYT are - affirmatively, unabashedly, and not in a trying to cover it up way - transphobes. I think they hire transphobes and publish so much transphobic inaccurate pseudoscience because that’s what they believe and agree with. I don’t think it’s any more complicated than that.
posted by eviemath at 9:52 AM on February 16, 2023 [26 favorites]
posted by eviemath at 9:52 AM on February 16, 2023 [26 favorites]
memebake, apply your logic to any other sort of hatred, and you start to see the problems. Some things probably shouldn't be up for debate - see the reaction to so-called "race realists", for example. Where do you draw the line on what sides should be heard?
posted by sagc at 9:56 AM on February 16, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by sagc at 9:56 AM on February 16, 2023 [1 favorite]
I think people who would broadly be sympathetic might be somewhat put off by the very strong signal that anything other than complete agreement is 'transphobia' and 'denying trans peoples right to exist'.
Well, maybe. Who, exactly, is sending the signal "that anything other than complete agreement is 'transphobia' and 'denying trans peoples right to exist'"?
And anyone who writes about the topic without absolutely taking the trans side of the debate is 'spreading hate'.
Who, exactly, is making this argument, other than anti-trans writers dishonestly mischaracterizing the debate to earn sympathy?
Indeed it seems some on one side of the debate would say there isn't even a debate, and by suggesting there is anything to talk about you are comitting some sort of hateful action
Is there a debate, though? From the perspective of science and reality, trans people exist. From a certain narrow-minded point of view, they shouldn't, somehow. Since when is that a debate?
That said, who exactly suggesting there isn't "anything to talk about"?
To people who are open minded, that sort of vibe might not feel quite right.
Which is why dishonest people go to such great lengths to frame the debate in terms favorable to transphobes, including implying that pro-trans position is somehow not "open minded."
I understand that these are very emotive issues. There are lots of people young and old in the world struggling with all kinds of different things. I'm in favour of all sides being heard and all sides being open to dialogue.
People who would deny trans people the right to exist don't deserve to be heard. People who encourage violence against trans people don't deserve to be heard. And there's no "dialogue" with people who refuse to grant one's right to exist.
posted by Gelatin at 9:57 AM on February 16, 2023 [25 favorites]
Well, maybe. Who, exactly, is sending the signal "that anything other than complete agreement is 'transphobia' and 'denying trans peoples right to exist'"?
And anyone who writes about the topic without absolutely taking the trans side of the debate is 'spreading hate'.
Who, exactly, is making this argument, other than anti-trans writers dishonestly mischaracterizing the debate to earn sympathy?
Indeed it seems some on one side of the debate would say there isn't even a debate, and by suggesting there is anything to talk about you are comitting some sort of hateful action
Is there a debate, though? From the perspective of science and reality, trans people exist. From a certain narrow-minded point of view, they shouldn't, somehow. Since when is that a debate?
That said, who exactly suggesting there isn't "anything to talk about"?
To people who are open minded, that sort of vibe might not feel quite right.
Which is why dishonest people go to such great lengths to frame the debate in terms favorable to transphobes, including implying that pro-trans position is somehow not "open minded."
I understand that these are very emotive issues. There are lots of people young and old in the world struggling with all kinds of different things. I'm in favour of all sides being heard and all sides being open to dialogue.
People who would deny trans people the right to exist don't deserve to be heard. People who encourage violence against trans people don't deserve to be heard. And there's no "dialogue" with people who refuse to grant one's right to exist.
posted by Gelatin at 9:57 AM on February 16, 2023 [25 favorites]
I'm in favour of all sides being heard
'This group of people shouldn't exist' is not a side.
posted by box at 9:57 AM on February 16, 2023 [39 favorites]
'This group of people shouldn't exist' is not a side.
posted by box at 9:57 AM on February 16, 2023 [39 favorites]
And framing it as "the trans side of the debate" isn't great! Nor is saying that there's no discussion of trans issues, or that anyone writing about them is immediately pilloried - there's tons of insightful, critical writing about the trans experience, but they're generally going to be aimed within the community, not at convincing NYT readers of their right to exist.
posted by sagc at 9:58 AM on February 16, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by sagc at 9:58 AM on February 16, 2023 [4 favorites]
And anyone who writes about the topic without absolutely taking the trans side of the debate is 'spreading hate'.
This is self-serving tautology.
posted by Dysk at 9:59 AM on February 16, 2023 [2 favorites]
This is self-serving tautology.
posted by Dysk at 9:59 AM on February 16, 2023 [2 favorites]
And anyone who writes about the topic without absolutely taking the trans side of the debate is 'spreading hate'.
I always wonder what this means. Like, if I say, "I'm a man, I want to go on hormones and alter my body so that I no longer feel weird and awful", what is the legitimate other side of that? "No, you don't feel weird and awful, I can tell"? "No, you should feel weird and awful because we can do breast implants and nose jobs and hormonal birth control but Not That"? "You feel weird and awful for the wrong reasons, so suck it up"?
Even if it's "you'll never be a man", like, why do you care? What do you lose? How does it affect your life? What is a "real man"? (Please don't even try to answer these questions, I don't want to hear it.)
The main way that it affects your life seems to be that you want the right to mock, exclude or hurt me because you think that my "unreality" threatens you in some way, or because it's fun to shore up your gender by denying me mine. That doesn't seem like a "side" so much as it seems like oppression, actually, and I don't think it merits multiple articles in the NYT.
posted by Frowner at 9:59 AM on February 16, 2023 [26 favorites]
I always wonder what this means. Like, if I say, "I'm a man, I want to go on hormones and alter my body so that I no longer feel weird and awful", what is the legitimate other side of that? "No, you don't feel weird and awful, I can tell"? "No, you should feel weird and awful because we can do breast implants and nose jobs and hormonal birth control but Not That"? "You feel weird and awful for the wrong reasons, so suck it up"?
Even if it's "you'll never be a man", like, why do you care? What do you lose? How does it affect your life? What is a "real man"? (Please don't even try to answer these questions, I don't want to hear it.)
The main way that it affects your life seems to be that you want the right to mock, exclude or hurt me because you think that my "unreality" threatens you in some way, or because it's fun to shore up your gender by denying me mine. That doesn't seem like a "side" so much as it seems like oppression, actually, and I don't think it merits multiple articles in the NYT.
posted by Frowner at 9:59 AM on February 16, 2023 [26 favorites]
I know Metafilter as a group doesn't think highly of Texas values but there is an old one here that isn't much appreciated in modern Texas but is highly relevant to this so-called debate: what a person does on their own back 40 is their own business. My take is that anything to do with one's own gender is conducted on one's own back 40.
A lot of "normal" people are squicked by androgyny, drag, "cross-dressing", dressing that's incoherent with gender norms (e.g., bearded person in a dress), etc. Transphobia is a piece of it but a lot of it is just disliking nonconformity. I wish the dislike of nonconformity wasn't so normalized among liberals but it really is normal and not just in parts of the country that are nominally reactionary/conservative.
posted by gentlyepigrams at 10:00 AM on February 16, 2023 [4 favorites]
A lot of "normal" people are squicked by androgyny, drag, "cross-dressing", dressing that's incoherent with gender norms (e.g., bearded person in a dress), etc. Transphobia is a piece of it but a lot of it is just disliking nonconformity. I wish the dislike of nonconformity wasn't so normalized among liberals but it really is normal and not just in parts of the country that are nominally reactionary/conservative.
posted by gentlyepigrams at 10:00 AM on February 16, 2023 [4 favorites]
And framing it as "the trans side of the debate" isn't great!
No, but it's necessary for The New York Times and, er, others to imply that the critics of anti-trans people are somehow the unreasonable ones.
posted by Gelatin at 10:01 AM on February 16, 2023 [2 favorites]
No, but it's necessary for The New York Times and, er, others to imply that the critics of anti-trans people are somehow the unreasonable ones.
posted by Gelatin at 10:01 AM on February 16, 2023 [2 favorites]
Mod note: Another comment deleted for violating the Guidelines. Again, questioning the validity of trans identity is not acceptable in any way, shape, or form. Please stop.
posted by Brandon Blatcher (staff) at 10:03 AM on February 16, 2023 [20 favorites]
posted by Brandon Blatcher (staff) at 10:03 AM on February 16, 2023 [20 favorites]
> My take is that anything to do with one's own gender is conducted on one's own back 40.
I agree in so much as it's nobody's business, but disagree in that it comes across as not minding what people do so long as they don't do it in public and frighten the horses. People should be able to be trans loudly, all over the place, and not just discreetly.
posted by The corpse in the library at 10:10 AM on February 16, 2023 [17 favorites]
I agree in so much as it's nobody's business, but disagree in that it comes across as not minding what people do so long as they don't do it in public and frighten the horses. People should be able to be trans loudly, all over the place, and not just discreetly.
posted by The corpse in the library at 10:10 AM on February 16, 2023 [17 favorites]
Re: the idea that there must be a kind of neutral discussion and hearing of both sides.
I want people to understand that people can pretend to be neutral, and there is great benefit in that.
In this issue, most of my anger comes at people like Jesse Singal (and all of the UK commentariat it seems) who leverage this mindset, who manipulate using fear of pro-trans people. They work hard to demonize and portray ANY voice or argument on the pro-trans side as biased, motivated "advocacy" or "activism". They routinely fail seek out -- or they ignore, or they twist -- the words of the pro-trans side, and seek to occupy the zone of the "reasonable unbiased middle".
This is what this letter is about. The NYT is not being fair and accurate in its reporting.
But on a larger scale, please understand: Anyone who is trying to present themselves as the rational, reasonable center is trying to con you.
Keep in mind as well, mainstream journalists and pundits like Singal and Yglesies are working to advance their careers. And publishers are looking to make a buck and work their demographics.
So, here's what I'd wish to say to an open-minded person who was put off by the heat in the conversation: You can't really just let yourself kind of drift away from things that cause pain, and towards things that feel good, like some kind of half-alive sea sponge -- realize first that to Jesse Singal and Yglesias and the NYT and other center-squatters, you are a huge fucking mark.
posted by fleacircus at 10:18 AM on February 16, 2023 [25 favorites]
I want people to understand that people can pretend to be neutral, and there is great benefit in that.
In this issue, most of my anger comes at people like Jesse Singal (and all of the UK commentariat it seems) who leverage this mindset, who manipulate using fear of pro-trans people. They work hard to demonize and portray ANY voice or argument on the pro-trans side as biased, motivated "advocacy" or "activism". They routinely fail seek out -- or they ignore, or they twist -- the words of the pro-trans side, and seek to occupy the zone of the "reasonable unbiased middle".
This is what this letter is about. The NYT is not being fair and accurate in its reporting.
But on a larger scale, please understand: Anyone who is trying to present themselves as the rational, reasonable center is trying to con you.
Keep in mind as well, mainstream journalists and pundits like Singal and Yglesies are working to advance their careers. And publishers are looking to make a buck and work their demographics.
So, here's what I'd wish to say to an open-minded person who was put off by the heat in the conversation: You can't really just let yourself kind of drift away from things that cause pain, and towards things that feel good, like some kind of half-alive sea sponge -- realize first that to Jesse Singal and Yglesias and the NYT and other center-squatters, you are a huge fucking mark.
posted by fleacircus at 10:18 AM on February 16, 2023 [25 favorites]
I agree in so much as it's nobody's business, but disagree in that it comes across as not minding what people do so long as they don't do it in public and frighten the horses. People should be able to be trans loudly, all over the place, and not just discreetly.
To be clear, I totally agree with that. But I am also of the Texas from which Leslie Cochran sprang so I am OK with upsetting the pearl-clutchers.
posted by gentlyepigrams at 10:51 AM on February 16, 2023 [1 favorite]
To be clear, I totally agree with that. But I am also of the Texas from which Leslie Cochran sprang so I am OK with upsetting the pearl-clutchers.
posted by gentlyepigrams at 10:51 AM on February 16, 2023 [1 favorite]
Pretty much all the legal things trans people want, they want in order to avoid getting harassed and threatened by people in positions of power over them, especially those who are agents of the government.
Neutrality would mean that those agents of the government do not bring their personal beliefs on who should and should not be wearing certain clothing and using certain words describe themselves into their job, and instead treat everyone with equal respect and professionalism.
Neutrality is being pro-trans rights.
posted by Zalzidrax at 10:52 AM on February 16, 2023 [12 favorites]
Neutrality would mean that those agents of the government do not bring their personal beliefs on who should and should not be wearing certain clothing and using certain words describe themselves into their job, and instead treat everyone with equal respect and professionalism.
Neutrality is being pro-trans rights.
posted by Zalzidrax at 10:52 AM on February 16, 2023 [12 favorites]
"People should be allowed to exist safely and without being oppressed or persecuted, even if their understanding of gender in general or as they experience it personally does not make sense to you," and "People should not be allowed to do that, actually, and we should use both legal and physical violence to stop them," are not two equal and valid 'sides' of an 'issue', for gd's sake. They are not equivalent, and we have to stop allowing people to pretend that they are.
posted by BlueNorther at 11:13 AM on February 16, 2023 [25 favorites]
posted by BlueNorther at 11:13 AM on February 16, 2023 [25 favorites]
More to the point, The New York Times has to stop allowing people to pretend that they are, to say nothing of paying them for op-eds to claim that they are.
posted by Gelatin at 11:17 AM on February 16, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by Gelatin at 11:17 AM on February 16, 2023 [3 favorites]
To me the biggest issue with the Times journalistic coverage is the volume, as well described by the Scocca piece. And that volume and emphasis, along with the garbage on the editorial pages (fuck off Pamela Paul) betrays their ideological project that works in opposition to commonly accepted journalistic values. So if you think one particular Times article is fine - I may not agree - but hey - different strokes. But this is about the volume and context.
If they had one piece on for example, questions around safety for medical treatments for gender transitioning youth, that would be like, possibly flawed, but par for the course for a newspaper. But why on earth would they put this level of emphasis on a made up controversy (or a 'controversy' that is funded and fueled by hate groups) in terms of word count and placement in the paper?
As Scocca showed, the coverage of this fake controversy is totally out of proportion to the impacted population (tiny). Where is the NY Times coverage of trans people simply as subject-matter experts on other topics who happen to be trans? Where is the coverage of discrimination we face? And also, where is the coverage of any analogous medical treatments impacting a small number of people?
Like, I am a nurse, off the top of my head let me name 20 medical treatments that are associated with some level of controversy among medical providers and/or the public. These topics are non subject to multiple feature articles plus editorials. Kids get cosmetic surgery. Kids take hormones. Kids are given weight loss surgery or subject to restrictive diets that lack evidence. Kids take powerful medications that can cause dangerous birth defects (for example, acutain fo acne). Kids are prescribed growth hormone for cosmetic purposes. There are literally thousands of medications that have never been tested in children but are frequently prescribed to children. These Times pieces about trans healthcare are completely out of step with their coverage of any other medical or mental health issue.
posted by latkes at 11:29 AM on February 16, 2023 [46 favorites]
If they had one piece on for example, questions around safety for medical treatments for gender transitioning youth, that would be like, possibly flawed, but par for the course for a newspaper. But why on earth would they put this level of emphasis on a made up controversy (or a 'controversy' that is funded and fueled by hate groups) in terms of word count and placement in the paper?
As Scocca showed, the coverage of this fake controversy is totally out of proportion to the impacted population (tiny). Where is the NY Times coverage of trans people simply as subject-matter experts on other topics who happen to be trans? Where is the coverage of discrimination we face? And also, where is the coverage of any analogous medical treatments impacting a small number of people?
Like, I am a nurse, off the top of my head let me name 20 medical treatments that are associated with some level of controversy among medical providers and/or the public. These topics are non subject to multiple feature articles plus editorials. Kids get cosmetic surgery. Kids take hormones. Kids are given weight loss surgery or subject to restrictive diets that lack evidence. Kids take powerful medications that can cause dangerous birth defects (for example, acutain fo acne). Kids are prescribed growth hormone for cosmetic purposes. There are literally thousands of medications that have never been tested in children but are frequently prescribed to children. These Times pieces about trans healthcare are completely out of step with their coverage of any other medical or mental health issue.
posted by latkes at 11:29 AM on February 16, 2023 [46 favorites]
Cis male, white, hetero GenXer here again.
Just want to send a virtual hug out to all my allies in the not-gender-normative community (I don't want to get into labels and semantics, so I'm just going with that - apologies if I'm not up to speed on the best framing).
The trans community is under constant assault, and I am here for you. It's not just from right wingers, Evangelicals and conservatives. It's coming from within the LGB community as well. Lefties. Liberals. "Normies." All day, every day. I know you're exhausted and I truly wish I could wave a wand and relieve you, but that's not an option. I will say this: I am fighting the good fight, and every time I think that I, too, am tired, I remind myself that being tired is only more of a reason to fight harder for YOU. I could easily just walk out the door each day and live my life without addressing the constant bullshit, bigotry, hatred...all of it. I choose not to.
I SEE YOU.
Doing my best, and I'm not going to stop being your ally in this. Sometimes, that just needs to be said. You're not alone.
posted by Chuffy at 11:30 AM on February 16, 2023 [12 favorites]
Just want to send a virtual hug out to all my allies in the not-gender-normative community (I don't want to get into labels and semantics, so I'm just going with that - apologies if I'm not up to speed on the best framing).
The trans community is under constant assault, and I am here for you. It's not just from right wingers, Evangelicals and conservatives. It's coming from within the LGB community as well. Lefties. Liberals. "Normies." All day, every day. I know you're exhausted and I truly wish I could wave a wand and relieve you, but that's not an option. I will say this: I am fighting the good fight, and every time I think that I, too, am tired, I remind myself that being tired is only more of a reason to fight harder for YOU. I could easily just walk out the door each day and live my life without addressing the constant bullshit, bigotry, hatred...all of it. I choose not to.
I SEE YOU.
Doing my best, and I'm not going to stop being your ally in this. Sometimes, that just needs to be said. You're not alone.
posted by Chuffy at 11:30 AM on February 16, 2023 [12 favorites]
I rolled my eyes so hard at "She's not a transphobe by saying transphobic things" and trying to what, wank on a technicality? Um...those literally are transphobic things.
Ughhhhhhhhhhhh.
posted by jenfullmoon at 11:37 AM on February 16, 2023 [9 favorites]
Ughhhhhhhhhhhh.
posted by jenfullmoon at 11:37 AM on February 16, 2023 [9 favorites]
I half expect the next editorial out of the NYT to read: "But several reliable, well-informed sources confirmed the idea that DeSantis's transphobia was not so genuine or violent as it sounded, and that he was merely using transphobic propaganda as a bait to catch masses of followers and keep them aroused, enthusiastic, and in line for the time when his organization is perfected and sufficiently powerful to be employed effectively for political purposes."
posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock at 11:48 AM on February 16, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock at 11:48 AM on February 16, 2023 [5 favorites]
Evan Urquhart of Assigned Media, a newssite tracking transphobia in the media, has a characteristically clear take on Pamela Paul’s opinion piece, Pamela Paul Doesn’t Know What Transphobia Is. Excerpt:
Trans men and transmasculine people are never mentioned in Paul’s column. However, that does not mean that all or even most of Rowling’s transphobia has been directed towards transfemmes. Rowling has directly targeted the agency and self-determination of transgender people who were assigned female as birth, a group she refers to as “women” and who she includes in the group of “women” who, through her activism, she claims to want to protect. What is Rowling attempting to protect transmascs from? Why, from believing themselves to be trans men. Her protection of women includes, and has always included, an insistence that trans men are really women, and therefore cannot be allowed to exist as men.posted by Kattullus at 12:56 PM on February 16, 2023 [16 favorites]
Here’s a quote from Rowling’s 2020 essay you rarely see mentioned in discussions of Rowling’s transphobia: “radical feminists aren’t even trans-exclusionary—they include trans men in their feminism, because they were born women.” Rowling is defending TERFs by saying that misgendering trans men is a form of including trans people. While Rowling does not claim to be a radical feminist herself, her inclusion of trans men (by saying they’re really women who need to be protected and included in women’s only spaces) follows this same form.
Some positive news:
Spain Allows Legal Gender Change Without a Medical Evaluation
Spain Allows Legal Gender Change Without a Medical Evaluation
A new law will allow people 16 and older to change their registered gender without undergoing psychological and medical evaluations to show gender dysphoria.posted by twsf at 1:25 PM on February 16, 2023 [20 favorites]
I think that so much of this is about the joy of fascism.
On Social Sadism
by China Miéville | December 17, 2015
posted by mikelieman at 3:41 PM on February 16, 2023 [11 favorites]
On Social Sadism
by China Miéville | December 17, 2015
posted by mikelieman at 3:41 PM on February 16, 2023 [11 favorites]
We build against sadism. We build to experience the joy of its every fleeting defeat. Hoping for more joy, for longer, each time, longer and stronger; until, perhaps, we hope, for yet more; and you can’t say it won’t ever happen, that the ground won’t shift, that it won’t one day be the sadisms that are embattled, the sadisms that are fleeting, on a new substratum of something else, newly foundational, that the sadisms won’t diminish or be defeated, that those for whom they are machinery of rule won’t be done.That's a powerful essay, there. Thank you for sharing it.
posted by CrystalDave at 3:54 PM on February 16, 2023 [4 favorites]
NYT: Participation in such a campaign [advocacy against NYT's trans coverage] is against the letter and the spirit of our ethics policy.
It's about ethics ingames trans journalism.
posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock at 4:19 PM on February 16, 2023 [17 favorites]
It's about ethics in
posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock at 4:19 PM on February 16, 2023 [17 favorites]
Via Maria Bustillos of Popula:
THE NEW YORK TIMES is in hot water for its terrible coverage of trans issues, and also for its terrible response to the outcry against its terrible coverage. But the really scary thing about this whole fiasco is how few news organizations documented the Times's failures themselves, or sought to hold the paper to account...posted by They sucked his brains out! at 4:19 PM on February 16, 2023 [11 favorites]
At Popula on January 29th, Tom Scocca published a groundbreaking condemnation of the Times's coverage of health care for trans kids; his piece was cited at Nieman Journalism Lab, Papermag, Hell Gate, Assigned Media and a lot of other places. Many, including the open letter sponsored by the Freelance Solidarity Project, failed to name the author of the piece, or the outlet in which it appeared, and that is to be regretted. Independent news sources like Popula need recognition, which translates into material support for this difficult work.
NYT: Participation in such a campaign [advocacy against NYT's trans coverage] is against the letter and the spirit of our ethics policy.
Paul Krugman has pointed out that their "ethics policy" that prohibits mentioning another NYT staffer by name prevents him from pointing out when one of his Op-Ed page colleague (*cough*DavidBrooks*cough*) is lying.
This policy does not serve the truth.
The Times' tweet claims that they aren't doing anything wrong, which means they are completely ignoring the substance of the letter, dismissing it as an "attack." (Meanwhile, of course, they bend over backward to appease conservative criticism, no matter the bad faith in which it's offered.)
posted by Gelatin at 5:22 PM on February 16, 2023 [14 favorites]
Paul Krugman has pointed out that their "ethics policy" that prohibits mentioning another NYT staffer by name prevents him from pointing out when one of his Op-Ed page colleague (*cough*DavidBrooks*cough*) is lying.
This policy does not serve the truth.
The Times' tweet claims that they aren't doing anything wrong, which means they are completely ignoring the substance of the letter, dismissing it as an "attack." (Meanwhile, of course, they bend over backward to appease conservative criticism, no matter the bad faith in which it's offered.)
posted by Gelatin at 5:22 PM on February 16, 2023 [14 favorites]
Thanks for posting that essay link, mikelieman.
What an amazing read.
Sometimes I wonder how much of our dysfunction as a society is due to the strain on all of us our grappling with the cognitive dissonance between how we pretend the world works and how we know it to.
posted by allium cepa at 5:56 PM on February 16, 2023 [4 favorites]
What an amazing read.
Sometimes I wonder how much of our dysfunction as a society is due to the strain on all of us our grappling with the cognitive dissonance between how we pretend the world works and how we know it to.
posted by allium cepa at 5:56 PM on February 16, 2023 [4 favorites]
There's a particular feel to existence when you cannot live as yourself.
You do not feel alive. You are only trying to shut out the overwhelming wrongness and marking time. The pain of it breaks through repeatedly no matter how you try to block it out. You sleep poorly or too much. Sometimes both. At unexpected moments, small things take on huge meaning and devastate you. Maybe you see a child of your actual gender playing and confront how you never got to be a child like that. Maybe someone talks excitedly about being a bridesmaid. Maybe you see a dusty photo in someone's home of a beaming mother with her child. Maybe you stand in front of a rack of clothes targeted at the gender you were assigned at birth and see a grim prison. But you push these down, go silent, turn on your dead face, and keep trying to be a functional part of the world, of the lives of others around you.
You recognize that on some level you are just waiting, holding on to the hope you will be able to escape the situation someday. And you question if the hope is real. And you question if hanging on to existence is worth it. You do it often. You probably think about what giving up means. Possibly thinking about it gives you temporary relief. And maybe the years stretch on. You are unable to escape a constant news feed of hatred.
You see these articles, and you give the hell up on humanity. You give up on the idea of a kind society. You give up on the idea of fairness and equality. You recognize that the cruelty is the point. And if possible, even more than you hate the cruelty, you hate the social pressure to pretend that it isn't, to submit to gaslighting about your own pain.
posted by allium cepa at 6:12 PM on February 16, 2023 [23 favorites]
You do not feel alive. You are only trying to shut out the overwhelming wrongness and marking time. The pain of it breaks through repeatedly no matter how you try to block it out. You sleep poorly or too much. Sometimes both. At unexpected moments, small things take on huge meaning and devastate you. Maybe you see a child of your actual gender playing and confront how you never got to be a child like that. Maybe someone talks excitedly about being a bridesmaid. Maybe you see a dusty photo in someone's home of a beaming mother with her child. Maybe you stand in front of a rack of clothes targeted at the gender you were assigned at birth and see a grim prison. But you push these down, go silent, turn on your dead face, and keep trying to be a functional part of the world, of the lives of others around you.
You recognize that on some level you are just waiting, holding on to the hope you will be able to escape the situation someday. And you question if the hope is real. And you question if hanging on to existence is worth it. You do it often. You probably think about what giving up means. Possibly thinking about it gives you temporary relief. And maybe the years stretch on. You are unable to escape a constant news feed of hatred.
You see these articles, and you give the hell up on humanity. You give up on the idea of a kind society. You give up on the idea of fairness and equality. You recognize that the cruelty is the point. And if possible, even more than you hate the cruelty, you hate the social pressure to pretend that it isn't, to submit to gaslighting about your own pain.
posted by allium cepa at 6:12 PM on February 16, 2023 [23 favorites]
The answer is straightforward: Because she has asserted the right to spaces for biological women
Sheesh, so those of us who are under the trans umbrella are what, cyborgs? Pretty dismaying to see NYTimes print this kind of essentialist dogwhistle.
posted by polymodus at 7:16 PM on February 16, 2023 [5 favorites]
Sheesh, so those of us who are under the trans umbrella are what, cyborgs? Pretty dismaying to see NYTimes print this kind of essentialist dogwhistle.
posted by polymodus at 7:16 PM on February 16, 2023 [5 favorites]
One stupid thing about the talk about biological women is that trans women's brains are wired more like cis women's brains than cis men's. There's a disconnect of receiving the wrong hormones for the way our brains are wired. The lack of nuance in the way we're talked about by cis people will never stop enraging me.
https://www.reddit.com/r/MtF/comments/1140r4i/here_are_12_studies_regarding_the_transgender/
posted by kokaku at 7:34 PM on February 16, 2023 [8 favorites]
https://www.reddit.com/r/MtF/comments/1140r4i/here_are_12_studies_regarding_the_transgender/
posted by kokaku at 7:34 PM on February 16, 2023 [8 favorites]
It's been interesting watching the reactions to the new game based on JK TERFs universe. A lot of times I really think allies and people who ideally should be allies just.... Don't think about trans issues much, or are capable of dismissing us really easily.
posted by Jacen at 10:48 PM on February 16, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by Jacen at 10:48 PM on February 16, 2023 [5 favorites]
The thing that always really gets me is how transphobes go on constantly about wanting to protect cis women while simultaneously hating and attacking cis women who are not transphobic - and never get called on it by the media. They're totally okay with supporting Matt Walsh though, all while claiming to be feminists.
posted by lesbiassparrow at 2:14 AM on February 17, 2023 [16 favorites]
posted by lesbiassparrow at 2:14 AM on February 17, 2023 [16 favorites]
As I wrote elsewhere, the NYT's position is essentially:
"People fire guns everyday. We believe it's important that their bullets reach an audience."
posted by allium cepa at 6:37 AM on February 17, 2023 [11 favorites]
"People fire guns everyday. We believe it's important that their bullets reach an audience."
posted by allium cepa at 6:37 AM on February 17, 2023 [11 favorites]
- Pamela Paul is herself toxically transphobic, and is not trans; indeed, she's by all accounts straight and cis. So it's wild she purports to decide for everyone that transphobia is not transphobia. She has a long history of publishing anti-trans screeds, including: claiming that "women" is a verboten term; claiming that "gay" is a verboten term used the 50th anniversary of "Free to Be You and Me" into a bitter complaint on gender non-conformity and the existence of trans people; blamed trans identities in part for creating "cancel culture"; pretended negative reviews by trans people about a bioessentialist gender dystopia was silencing.
- Pamela Paul's shoehorning of Salman Rushdie's stabbing is especially vile in terms of context. Her argument, of course, is that the demonization of writers leads to violence, which isn't wrong! But Salman Rushdie survived the assassination attempt. Not even a week ago Brianna Ghey, a trans girl in Warrington, UK, who was just 16 was stabbed in broad daylight by two 15-year-olds... and trans people have been demonized by the British press (the Guardian, the Times, the Telegraph, the Economist, the Independent, the Mail, the Mirror, the BBC) for most of the past decade. A 16-year-old girl. Murdered in a public park. And the bigots still stick to calling her a boy and celebrating the fact that she was too young for a GRC. The British media called her dentist to find her deadname and publish that. The centrists are upset that trans people are "politicizing" her murder. But yes. It's JKR who's threatened.
Pamela Paul's shoehorning of Salman Rushdie's stabbing is especially vile in terms of context.
I saw it as a classic strawman argument. Being that it was early in her piece, I wrote of the rest as being equally specious and bombastic.
Overall, I think if you look at the Times coverage holistically, they will overlook palpable facts for their both-sides based reporting. Their opinion pages, freed somewhat from any facts, is even worse. As such, I have little use for them and deep suspicions about the veracity of any issue that they cover. At best, they are pandering, at worst, their blatant disregard of many things -- not just transgender issues -- is crass commercialism that creates real victims for their profits.
posted by wolpfack at 9:11 AM on February 17, 2023 [1 favorite]
I saw it as a classic strawman argument. Being that it was early in her piece, I wrote of the rest as being equally specious and bombastic.
Overall, I think if you look at the Times coverage holistically, they will overlook palpable facts for their both-sides based reporting. Their opinion pages, freed somewhat from any facts, is even worse. As such, I have little use for them and deep suspicions about the veracity of any issue that they cover. At best, they are pandering, at worst, their blatant disregard of many things -- not just transgender issues -- is crass commercialism that creates real victims for their profits.
posted by wolpfack at 9:11 AM on February 17, 2023 [1 favorite]
The thing that always really gets me is how transphobes go on constantly about wanting to protect cis women while simultaneously hating and attacking cis women who are not transphobic - and never get called on it by the media.
This.
British Youtuber Shaun did a good video (~30min) for JKR on this topic.
Previously on Harry Potter in general.
posted by the_dreamwriter at 9:58 AM on February 17, 2023 [4 favorites]
This.
British Youtuber Shaun did a good video (~30min) for JKR on this topic.
Previously on Harry Potter in general.
posted by the_dreamwriter at 9:58 AM on February 17, 2023 [4 favorites]
The centrists are upset that trans people are "politicizing" her murder.
Never forget that anyone complaining about an event being "politicized" is admitting that event doesn't look good for their side.
"Politicization" is how we change things. JK Rowling, the New York Times, Pamela Paul, and others are already "politicizing" the existence of trans people, expressing that they would rather trans people didn't exist. So it's absolutely right to blame them when someone takes them up on the logical conclusion on that stance, and insist that the change they want is not acceptable.
The opposite of "politicization" is "acceptance."
posted by Gelatin at 10:01 AM on February 17, 2023 [8 favorites]
Never forget that anyone complaining about an event being "politicized" is admitting that event doesn't look good for their side.
"Politicization" is how we change things. JK Rowling, the New York Times, Pamela Paul, and others are already "politicizing" the existence of trans people, expressing that they would rather trans people didn't exist. So it's absolutely right to blame them when someone takes them up on the logical conclusion on that stance, and insist that the change they want is not acceptable.
The opposite of "politicization" is "acceptance."
posted by Gelatin at 10:01 AM on February 17, 2023 [8 favorites]
(Actually, JK Rowling, the New York Times, Pamela Paul, and others are mostly complaining that people resent it when they express that they would rather trans people didn't exist.)
posted by Gelatin at 10:05 AM on February 17, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by Gelatin at 10:05 AM on February 17, 2023 [5 favorites]
Once again, The Onion knocks it out of the park.
Also, tolerance is a peace treaty not a suicide pact.
posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock at 10:15 AM on February 17, 2023 [34 favorites]
It Is Journalism’s Sacred Duty To Endanger The Lives Of As Many Trans People As PossibleThe opposite of "politicization" is "acceptance."
Also, tolerance is a peace treaty not a suicide pact.
posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock at 10:15 AM on February 17, 2023 [34 favorites]
God bless The Onion.
kotaku, thank you for those links. Many years ago someone in my hometown who's trans compiled a bunch of paperwork about the chemicals in the brain being different and passed them out to everyone (including my mom, who of course lost it, I would have loved to have read it) and I have never, ever been able to find anything else on the topic since. I was starting to wonder if that theory had fell out of fashion or what the hell happened, because it seems like an important thing to mention.
posted by jenfullmoon at 10:39 AM on February 17, 2023 [2 favorites]
kotaku, thank you for those links. Many years ago someone in my hometown who's trans compiled a bunch of paperwork about the chemicals in the brain being different and passed them out to everyone (including my mom, who of course lost it, I would have loved to have read it) and I have never, ever been able to find anything else on the topic since. I was starting to wonder if that theory had fell out of fashion or what the hell happened, because it seems like an important thing to mention.
posted by jenfullmoon at 10:39 AM on February 17, 2023 [2 favorites]
Thanks Your Childhood Pet Rock...you beat me to it.
posted by Chuffy at 10:47 AM on February 17, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by Chuffy at 10:47 AM on February 17, 2023 [1 favorite]
NYT Letters to the Editor. Some anti-Pamela, some pro (sigh).
posted by jenfullmoon at 10:53 AM on February 17, 2023
posted by jenfullmoon at 10:53 AM on February 17, 2023
> Your Childhood Pet Rock: "Once again, The Onion knocks it out of the park."
I was just about to post this as well. The folks over at The Onion can definitely still bring the heat when the occasion demands. It's basically all killer, no filler so it's hard to quote a best excerpt, but here's a representative para:
posted by mhum at 11:22 AM on February 17, 2023 [25 favorites]
I was just about to post this as well. The folks over at The Onion can definitely still bring the heat when the occasion demands. It's basically all killer, no filler so it's hard to quote a best excerpt, but here's a representative para:
We stand behind our recent obsessed-seeming torrent of articles and essays on trans people, which we believe faithfully depicts their lived experiences as weird and gross. We remain dedicated to finding the angles that best frame the basic rights of the gender-nonconforming as up for debate, and we will use these same angles over and over again in hopes that this repetition makes them suffer. As journalists, it is our obligation to entertain any and all pseudoscience that gives bigotry an intellectual veneer. We must be diligent in laundering our vitriol through the posture of journalistic inquiry, and we must be allowed to fixate on the genitals.This is an excellent example of how righteous fury can be sharpened with satire. They really, really cut to the heart of it in this article.
posted by mhum at 11:22 AM on February 17, 2023 [25 favorites]
They really, really cut to the heart of it in this article.
And then they twist the knife in the final graf:
And then they twist the knife in the final graf:
Research shows that trans people are over four times more likely than cisgender people to be the victim of a violent crime. We salute our colleagues across the media who are working tirelessly to make that number even higher.posted by Gelatin at 11:27 AM on February 17, 2023 [26 favorites]
I think something that many people who are otherwise supportive of gays and lesbians don’t realize is that in the US at least, the trans ‘debate’ is over. GLAAD, founded in the AIDS pandemic to fight for gay rights, has paid for ads against the NYT’s actions in Manhattan. GLAAD *changed to just the acronym* a few years ago because they recognized that solidarity in the queer community is the way to go. They’re run by a cis lesbian feminist.
Straight people, we in the LGBTQ community aren’t just gay anymore. So many of us are gender diverse. We’re over it, and if you can’t be, then you do not stand for us, you stand against us.
posted by Flight Hardware, do not touch at 12:56 PM on February 17, 2023 [12 favorites]
Straight people, we in the LGBTQ community aren’t just gay anymore. So many of us are gender diverse. We’re over it, and if you can’t be, then you do not stand for us, you stand against us.
posted by Flight Hardware, do not touch at 12:56 PM on February 17, 2023 [12 favorites]
kahn is pretending the letter signed by thousands of Times contributors and readers was organized by GLADD, which as he knows wrote its own letter
This is from a Twitter link above and it makes me furious that a New York Times official is deliberately conflating two different letters and essentially threatening a bunch of NYT contributors by claiming that the contributors are committing activism rather than media criticism. It’s like my dude, those journalists pounding on your door are pointing out that you folks are not actually practicing high-standards professional journalism. To be fair, that is hard and expensive to do on a consistent basis. Still, the New York Times manages to do that on occasion on other topics. Those editors are on the wrong side of history, and they need to cut it the fuck out.
posted by Bella Donna at 2:06 PM on February 17, 2023 [9 favorites]
This is from a Twitter link above and it makes me furious that a New York Times official is deliberately conflating two different letters and essentially threatening a bunch of NYT contributors by claiming that the contributors are committing activism rather than media criticism. It’s like my dude, those journalists pounding on your door are pointing out that you folks are not actually practicing high-standards professional journalism. To be fair, that is hard and expensive to do on a consistent basis. Still, the New York Times manages to do that on occasion on other topics. Those editors are on the wrong side of history, and they need to cut it the fuck out.
posted by Bella Donna at 2:06 PM on February 17, 2023 [9 favorites]
Nearly 1,000 contributors protest New York Times’ coverage of trans people, The Guardian reporting from a parallel universe where they're not doing the same things.
posted by joannemerriam at 4:46 PM on February 17, 2023 [8 favorites]
posted by joannemerriam at 4:46 PM on February 17, 2023 [8 favorites]
So today my local newspaper (the Dallas Morning News) posted an opinion piece [archive link] about a film called Affirmation Generation by one of the filmmakers, who wrote the piece under a pseudonym (which the DMN allowed at the writer's request). I knew nothing about this other than that it was a trans-related film (again, cishet white Gen X lady) and so clicked through to the movie page, and then did some googling about the film and found myself down a whole rabbit hole of people who are convinced of bizarre stuff about trans people and teens and medicine.
Apparently the film is about a handful of detransitioned kids and supposed to prove something about how teens are too dumb to know what's good for them and medical authorities aren't allowed to talk them out of transitioning (which is the opposite of everything I've ever heard from trans adults I know in real life, so I have trouble believing that kids aren't struggling to get treatment as well). And the filmmaker ofc claims to be very left but uses all the cancel culture buzzwords that come from the right.
It was one of those things where as a mainstream news media reader, who is aware that the big media companies are transphobic, I had no idea there was such a large and vigorous transphobic cottage industry priming this coverage. I've always wondered why apparently random people were so resistant to gender-affirming care for trans kids but apparently there's a huge community of nominally "liberal" people like this filmmaker who think trans people are about to come get their kids or inflict social contagion (yuck, what an awful term, thinking about your gender is not a disease) on the kids.
I'm boggled and upset and confused and want to send all my trans Mefites a hug while I figure out what I can do about this (subscription is already killed, maybe a letter to the editor?). I feel like I picked up a rock and found something swarming and threatening underneath and I'm not even their target.
posted by gentlyepigrams at 5:36 PM on February 17, 2023 [13 favorites]
Apparently the film is about a handful of detransitioned kids and supposed to prove something about how teens are too dumb to know what's good for them and medical authorities aren't allowed to talk them out of transitioning (which is the opposite of everything I've ever heard from trans adults I know in real life, so I have trouble believing that kids aren't struggling to get treatment as well). And the filmmaker ofc claims to be very left but uses all the cancel culture buzzwords that come from the right.
It was one of those things where as a mainstream news media reader, who is aware that the big media companies are transphobic, I had no idea there was such a large and vigorous transphobic cottage industry priming this coverage. I've always wondered why apparently random people were so resistant to gender-affirming care for trans kids but apparently there's a huge community of nominally "liberal" people like this filmmaker who think trans people are about to come get their kids or inflict social contagion (yuck, what an awful term, thinking about your gender is not a disease) on the kids.
I'm boggled and upset and confused and want to send all my trans Mefites a hug while I figure out what I can do about this (subscription is already killed, maybe a letter to the editor?). I feel like I picked up a rock and found something swarming and threatening underneath and I'm not even their target.
posted by gentlyepigrams at 5:36 PM on February 17, 2023 [13 favorites]
Yep, every now and again I think the Onion has lost it but….then it Arya Starks the New York Times. Tragically, I don’t think they will self reflect about it.
posted by corb at 12:42 AM on February 18, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by corb at 12:42 AM on February 18, 2023 [3 favorites]
Doubtful since it's pretty clear at this point that there are transphobic folks high up in their newsroom and editorial staff who are committed to anti-trans coverage.
posted by kokaku at 2:59 AM on February 18, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by kokaku at 2:59 AM on February 18, 2023 [5 favorites]
And today NYT flips to a sympathetic article on parents trying to fight for their children's rights.
Or, Mr. Neiss said darkly, “trying to legislate into law that my kid is not normal and should not exist.”
But what the Jacksons had mistaken for a happy ending was only the eye of the storm. The Trump administration revoked the federal protections for transgender students. In Jefferson City, a backlash against transgender rights was underway, and growing with every legislative session. Avery, now a teenager who recently started identifying as nonbinary, suffered from anxiety. Money got tighter in part, Ms. Jackson said, because every time the family appears in the news, her husband, a doctor, loses another batch of patients.
“I used to think, My gosh, they’ve just never met a trans person. I just need to tell them and they’ll understand.” Ms. Jackson paused and laughed bitterly. “Now we see where we are.”
“Now it’s not a question of, ‘Will we lose?’ but ‘How much can we minimize the loss?’”
posted by jenfullmoon at 9:34 AM on February 18, 2023 [5 favorites]
Or, Mr. Neiss said darkly, “trying to legislate into law that my kid is not normal and should not exist.”
But what the Jacksons had mistaken for a happy ending was only the eye of the storm. The Trump administration revoked the federal protections for transgender students. In Jefferson City, a backlash against transgender rights was underway, and growing with every legislative session. Avery, now a teenager who recently started identifying as nonbinary, suffered from anxiety. Money got tighter in part, Ms. Jackson said, because every time the family appears in the news, her husband, a doctor, loses another batch of patients.
“I used to think, My gosh, they’ve just never met a trans person. I just need to tell them and they’ll understand.” Ms. Jackson paused and laughed bitterly. “Now we see where we are.”
“Now it’s not a question of, ‘Will we lose?’ but ‘How much can we minimize the loss?’”
posted by jenfullmoon at 9:34 AM on February 18, 2023 [5 favorites]
I saw that article and noticed that they never enable comments on the positive articles, only the negative ones.
Also, they never acknowledge their own role in making these fights harder for trans people.
posted by kokaku at 10:07 AM on February 18, 2023 [14 favorites]
Also, they never acknowledge their own role in making these fights harder for trans people.
posted by kokaku at 10:07 AM on February 18, 2023 [14 favorites]
To hop back to what latkes asked earlier in the thread:
I get the sense that, on some level, you genuinely do get thick-headed amoral sociopaths for whom "people are talking about this" equates to "we need to talk about this." They rarely have any actual research, don't fully understand the issues, and don't care to know whether the things they're saying are backed by science or statistics or real-life examples; to them, none of that matters, as long as writers are "sincere" and "mean it." And the fact that most of the people writing about this are cisgender just goes to show that, idk, trans writers "don't want it enough," but that statistical fluke doesn't mean anything anyway. The Discourse!!
Beneath that, you get writers who fundamentally don't care to distinguish between "personal grudge" and the rest of the world. The moment someone picks a fight with them online, the story is "someone's picking fights with me online." Sometimes these people attempt some facsimile of good faith, and are just self-absorbed beyond belief; most don't. And they're sociopathic with a little more of that social sadism thrown in: it would be good for their critics to suffer, because their critics deserve to hurt for what they've done. Which is how you get J. K. Rowling publicly reveling in trans suffering, because she clearly operates primarily on spite. (And her crusade against trans people wasn't her first online crusade—just the most conspicuously worst one so far.)
Both of those are fundamentally reactionary responses, in that the first one is basically pro-institution and pro-entrenched power, and the second one crosses into actively targeting people without power for daring to cross the powerful. But beneath that are the real propagandists, the trollish nihilists who'd have been pro-Hitler in another era. And those are the people who have no fundamental belief that the news should report on "real stories," or that it has a responsibility to be accurate. They see everything as a lever of power, including the fact that news organizations have these deeply flawed patterns and can therefore be tricked into these campaigns. Either you guide enough of the resentful spite shitlords towards Just Asking Questions for long enough that they piss someone off and get into a feud, or you simply yell loudly enough about trans teens that it becomes a "national news story," at which point it's easy to just keep fanning the flames rather than put it out. Especially once it reaches the point of state legislatures passing anti-trans propaganda, after which there just needs to be a constant news cycle asking: well, a lot of people are mad about these laws, but how do we protect children from this awful trans agenda?
Most of the most powerful voices in this campaign are the first two types and not the third, I think: Jesse Singal just wants to write stories that make him seem urgently relevant, Matt Yglesias is still a college student going "Actually..." at a party in the hopes of getting laid, and there is close to no chance that Philip Corbett knows the first thing about trans issues. But that doesn't matter, for the same reason that it doesn't matter whether J. K. Rowling is operating from a place of personal trauma or what-have-you while deciding which group of people she wants to bully. These people are all more-than-willing to be puppets for the bigoted assholes who see "free speech" as a playground they get to use to beat up on other people, because they know the teachers are likelier to blame their victims anyway.
Are they just in it to sell copies of the New York Times? Is this just a way of making money? Or do they genuinely believe in The Discourage, and don't recognize it as an artificially-constructed panic that they're perpetuating with their actions? It doesn't particularly matter, because ultimately it's a willing abuse of power, aided and abetted by the refusal to acknowledge the power they hold.
posted by Tom Hanks Cannot Be Trusted at 10:36 AM on February 18, 2023 [9 favorites]
If they had one piece on for example, questions around safety for medical treatments for gender transitioning youth, that would be like, possibly flawed, but par for the course for a newspaper. But why on earth would they put this level of emphasis on a made up controversy (or a 'controversy' that is funded and fueled by hate groups) in terms of word count and placement in the paper?From a distance, it feels like a more human-driven version of that "Facebook intentionally promotes infuriating content to drive user engagement" phenomenon. "Fear of trans people" is part of The Discourse; therefore, we must write articles reporting on The Discourse, in ways that perpetuate The Discourse, and incidentally also drive lots of traffic our way. Jesse Singal writes about how extremist and angry trans people are; this makes trans people angry at him; therefore, trans people are clearly extremist and angry and must be written about more.
I get the sense that, on some level, you genuinely do get thick-headed amoral sociopaths for whom "people are talking about this" equates to "we need to talk about this." They rarely have any actual research, don't fully understand the issues, and don't care to know whether the things they're saying are backed by science or statistics or real-life examples; to them, none of that matters, as long as writers are "sincere" and "mean it." And the fact that most of the people writing about this are cisgender just goes to show that, idk, trans writers "don't want it enough," but that statistical fluke doesn't mean anything anyway. The Discourse!!
Beneath that, you get writers who fundamentally don't care to distinguish between "personal grudge" and the rest of the world. The moment someone picks a fight with them online, the story is "someone's picking fights with me online." Sometimes these people attempt some facsimile of good faith, and are just self-absorbed beyond belief; most don't. And they're sociopathic with a little more of that social sadism thrown in: it would be good for their critics to suffer, because their critics deserve to hurt for what they've done. Which is how you get J. K. Rowling publicly reveling in trans suffering, because she clearly operates primarily on spite. (And her crusade against trans people wasn't her first online crusade—just the most conspicuously worst one so far.)
Both of those are fundamentally reactionary responses, in that the first one is basically pro-institution and pro-entrenched power, and the second one crosses into actively targeting people without power for daring to cross the powerful. But beneath that are the real propagandists, the trollish nihilists who'd have been pro-Hitler in another era. And those are the people who have no fundamental belief that the news should report on "real stories," or that it has a responsibility to be accurate. They see everything as a lever of power, including the fact that news organizations have these deeply flawed patterns and can therefore be tricked into these campaigns. Either you guide enough of the resentful spite shitlords towards Just Asking Questions for long enough that they piss someone off and get into a feud, or you simply yell loudly enough about trans teens that it becomes a "national news story," at which point it's easy to just keep fanning the flames rather than put it out. Especially once it reaches the point of state legislatures passing anti-trans propaganda, after which there just needs to be a constant news cycle asking: well, a lot of people are mad about these laws, but how do we protect children from this awful trans agenda?
Most of the most powerful voices in this campaign are the first two types and not the third, I think: Jesse Singal just wants to write stories that make him seem urgently relevant, Matt Yglesias is still a college student going "Actually..." at a party in the hopes of getting laid, and there is close to no chance that Philip Corbett knows the first thing about trans issues. But that doesn't matter, for the same reason that it doesn't matter whether J. K. Rowling is operating from a place of personal trauma or what-have-you while deciding which group of people she wants to bully. These people are all more-than-willing to be puppets for the bigoted assholes who see "free speech" as a playground they get to use to beat up on other people, because they know the teachers are likelier to blame their victims anyway.
Are they just in it to sell copies of the New York Times? Is this just a way of making money? Or do they genuinely believe in The Discourage, and don't recognize it as an artificially-constructed panic that they're perpetuating with their actions? It doesn't particularly matter, because ultimately it's a willing abuse of power, aided and abetted by the refusal to acknowledge the power they hold.
posted by Tom Hanks Cannot Be Trusted at 10:36 AM on February 18, 2023 [9 favorites]
joannemerriam: The Guardian reporting from a parallel universe where they're not doing the same things.
This is by Guardian’s US news department. One of the weird things about the Guardian is that most, if not all, of its various departments are firmly pro-trans rights. I’ve mentioned this before, but their soccer section has a weekly column by a trans reporter and they feature her regularly on their podcast.
But the head office and the UK news department are wildly transphobic. Even random news articles about politics will have some odd transphobic angle out of the blue.
At some point this has to blow up, because it’s not a sustainable dynamic. And yeah, it leads to these articles where one of the pro-trans rights departments writes about transphobia as if the Guardian isn’t stoking it.
posted by Kattullus at 10:37 AM on February 18, 2023 [11 favorites]
This is by Guardian’s US news department. One of the weird things about the Guardian is that most, if not all, of its various departments are firmly pro-trans rights. I’ve mentioned this before, but their soccer section has a weekly column by a trans reporter and they feature her regularly on their podcast.
But the head office and the UK news department are wildly transphobic. Even random news articles about politics will have some odd transphobic angle out of the blue.
At some point this has to blow up, because it’s not a sustainable dynamic. And yeah, it leads to these articles where one of the pro-trans rights departments writes about transphobia as if the Guardian isn’t stoking it.
posted by Kattullus at 10:37 AM on February 18, 2023 [11 favorites]
It’s like my dude, those journalists pounding on your door are pointing out that you folks are not actually practicing high-standards professional journalism.
It's been clear for years that one can practice high-standards professional journalism or one can promote reactionary causes, but one can't do both -- the very existence of Fox News is an admission, as is the abovementioned NYT policy that Paul Krugman is forbidden from calling conservative columnists out when they're deliberately misleading (to say nothing of the NYT accepting deliberately misleading columnists on the most valuable op-ed space in the world). The Times has obviously accepted that misleading the public is the price they are willing to pay to promote certain points of view.
The Times' response primly declared that they weren't doing anything wrong because they can't acknowledge error in promoting such rancid garbage or their desperate attempt to legitimize it collapses.
posted by Gelatin at 4:23 AM on February 20, 2023 [4 favorites]
It's been clear for years that one can practice high-standards professional journalism or one can promote reactionary causes, but one can't do both -- the very existence of Fox News is an admission, as is the abovementioned NYT policy that Paul Krugman is forbidden from calling conservative columnists out when they're deliberately misleading (to say nothing of the NYT accepting deliberately misleading columnists on the most valuable op-ed space in the world). The Times has obviously accepted that misleading the public is the price they are willing to pay to promote certain points of view.
The Times' response primly declared that they weren't doing anything wrong because they can't acknowledge error in promoting such rancid garbage or their desperate attempt to legitimize it collapses.
posted by Gelatin at 4:23 AM on February 20, 2023 [4 favorites]
The New York Times Is Repeating One of Its Most Notorious Mistakes (Discourse Blog's Jack Mirkinson in The Nation)
posted by box at 4:38 AM on February 21, 2023 [7 favorites]
posted by box at 4:38 AM on February 21, 2023 [7 favorites]
Evan Urquhart and Michael Hobbes were interviewed on this subject by Ryan Cooper and Alexi the Greek of the American Prospect’s podcast Left Anchor.
posted by Kattullus at 7:04 AM on February 21, 2023
posted by Kattullus at 7:04 AM on February 21, 2023
> box: "The New York Times Is Repeating One of Its Most Notorious Mistakes"
This has been one of the most frustrating/baffling parts of the current wave of anti-trans stuff among nominally liberal people (conservatives were always going to be on the anti-trans side no matter what). The struggle for gay rights was relatively recent and arguably on-going. I do not really understand how the allegedly left-leaning, anti-trans people can be looking at the situation with transgender rights now and not see the parallels to gay rights to realize they're going to be on the wrong side of history. It's like they're failing an open-book test. And badly.
posted by mhum at 1:45 PM on February 21, 2023 [15 favorites]
This has been one of the most frustrating/baffling parts of the current wave of anti-trans stuff among nominally liberal people (conservatives were always going to be on the anti-trans side no matter what). The struggle for gay rights was relatively recent and arguably on-going. I do not really understand how the allegedly left-leaning, anti-trans people can be looking at the situation with transgender rights now and not see the parallels to gay rights to realize they're going to be on the wrong side of history. It's like they're failing an open-book test. And badly.
posted by mhum at 1:45 PM on February 21, 2023 [15 favorites]
Erik Wemple: "The @nytimes said it won't "tolerate" participation by its journalists in "protests organized by advocacy groups or attacks on colleagues on social media and other public forums” -- in reference to a letter attacking NYT coverage of transgender youth... Among those who signed that letter were several @nytimes employees. The NewsGuild of NY says that members have been called into "investigatory meetings" and an informed source tells me that disciplinary proceedings are under way."
posted by BungaDunga at 1:22 PM on February 23, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by BungaDunga at 1:22 PM on February 23, 2023 [4 favorites]
There’s been an update to the letter, available so far only as a Google Doc. Excerpt:
That support has already had tangible effects—our voices are beginning to be heard. The letter has been covered by The Nation, WNYC’s Brian Lehrer, and MSNBC, among many places. Despite so much public attention to the Times’ coverage of trans, non-binary, and gender nonconforming people, the Times has thus far refused to substantively engage with our concerns.posted by Kattullus at 2:17 PM on February 23, 2023 [9 favorites]
The paper’s initial public statement elided the difference between our letter and the letter organized by GLAAD and other coalition organizations, and falsely stated that our letter was delivered to the Times by GLAAD—an error the Times has yet to address. More than a week after it was originally sent on February 15th, the Times’ only direct response to our letter—other than associate managing editor for standards Philip Corbett’s out of office auto-reply—has come through their external communications department. Pre-empting the Times newsroom, the public relations professionals categorically state that the Times “reject any claim that [their] coverage is biased.”
In the meantime, on February 21st, the Mississippi Senate passed a bill banning gender-affirming care for minors. When its governor signs the bill into law, as he has sworn to do, Mississippi will join six other states in enacting similar restrictions. Over the last two weeks, legislation limiting access to gender-affirming care has moved forward in at least seven other state legislatures. One such bill, introduced in Texas, would eliminate nearly all coverage for gender-affirming care, even for adults—making medical transition effectively impossible for anyone unable to pay out of pocket for costly procedures. Eliminating the ability to medically transition is merely one step toward eliminating the existence of trans people entirely—the admitted end goal of the conservative lobbying groups pushing the bans on trans kids’ healthcare access. Nor is access to healthcare the only legislative target. In recent weeks, lawmakers have introduced at least five new anti-trans bills, including two that would prohibit trans people from accessing restroom facilities that correspond to their genders. (Contrary to some claims, bathrooms bills have in no way "died out.")
Another NYT today: The Battle Over Gender Therapy: More teenagers than ever are seeking transitions, but the medical community that treats them is deeply divided about why — and what to do to help them.
posted by jenfullmoon at 3:56 PM on February 23, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by jenfullmoon at 3:56 PM on February 23, 2023 [4 favorites]
for fuck's sake, NYT
posted by hydropsyche at 4:24 PM on February 23, 2023 [11 favorites]
posted by hydropsyche at 4:24 PM on February 23, 2023 [11 favorites]
possibly theyre fuckin trans
?
????
posted by away for regrooving at 11:53 PM on February 23, 2023 [4 favorites]
?
????
posted by away for regrooving at 11:53 PM on February 23, 2023 [4 favorites]
As Scocca showed, the coverage of this fake controversy is totally out of proportion to the impacted population (tiny).
I understand that it's in response to the moral panic about the supposed threat trans people pose to society, and to debunk the fears of a "epidemic" of trans identity among young people.
But it worries me when people say that discrimination and hate is unwarranted *because there are so few of us*.
Would it be acceptable if there were more trans people?
posted by Zumbador at 7:31 AM on February 24, 2023 [3 favorites]
I understand that it's in response to the moral panic about the supposed threat trans people pose to society, and to debunk the fears of a "epidemic" of trans identity among young people.
But it worries me when people say that discrimination and hate is unwarranted *because there are so few of us*.
Would it be acceptable if there were more trans people?
posted by Zumbador at 7:31 AM on February 24, 2023 [3 favorites]
I don’t want to speak for latkes, but I understood that “tiny” to refer to the number of trans kids receiving surgical treatment, not trans people as a whole.
That said, I agree with your point, Zumbador, it shouldn’t matter if there were ten trans people worldwide or a hundred million (the latter is actually a fairly reasonable guess). Any amount of transphobia is too much transphobia.
posted by Kattullus at 8:50 AM on February 24, 2023 [3 favorites]
That said, I agree with your point, Zumbador, it shouldn’t matter if there were ten trans people worldwide or a hundred million (the latter is actually a fairly reasonable guess). Any amount of transphobia is too much transphobia.
posted by Kattullus at 8:50 AM on February 24, 2023 [3 favorites]
But it worries me when people say that discrimination and hate is unwarranted *because there are so few of us*.
My impression from the Scocca piece was that it was less about how discrimination isn’t warranted but rather that coverage isn’t warranted. Discrimination is surely not warranted, but the NYT, by devoting this much ink to a fraction of a fraction of the population, is making it seem like a huge new population has appeared out of nowhere.
posted by Going To Maine at 9:03 AM on February 24, 2023 [3 favorites]
My impression from the Scocca piece was that it was less about how discrimination isn’t warranted but rather that coverage isn’t warranted. Discrimination is surely not warranted, but the NYT, by devoting this much ink to a fraction of a fraction of the population, is making it seem like a huge new population has appeared out of nowhere.
posted by Going To Maine at 9:03 AM on February 24, 2023 [3 favorites]
Another NYT today: The Battle Over Gender Therapy: More teenagers than ever are seeking transitions, but the medical community that treats them is deeply divided about why — and what to do to help them.
Point of clarification - this is the 2022 Bazelon article that the letter cites, not fresh 2023 content.
posted by Going To Maine at 9:05 AM on February 24, 2023 [1 favorite]
Point of clarification - this is the 2022 Bazelon article that the letter cites, not fresh 2023 content.
posted by Going To Maine at 9:05 AM on February 24, 2023 [1 favorite]
I apologize for that, I got an email that made it look like that was a fresh breaking article :/
WaPo: The New York Times newsroom is splintering over a trans coverage debate
posted by jenfullmoon at 11:07 AM on February 24, 2023 [1 favorite]
WaPo: The New York Times newsroom is splintering over a trans coverage debate
posted by jenfullmoon at 11:07 AM on February 24, 2023 [1 favorite]
But it worries me when people say that discrimination and hate is unwarranted *because there are so few of us*.
Would it be acceptable if there were more trans people?
posted by Zumbador 13 hours ago [3 favorites +] [!]
I definitely don't think transphobia is acceptable at all. I've lived my whole life as a gender non-conforming person and I am very aware that transphobia will catch me in it's net. And of course, discrimination is very wrong against groups with lots of members or very few. Let me rephrase my point:
The New York Times is in the business of publishing articles that explore multiple dimensions of an issue. They bring their biases to every issue, but the standard that non-sectarian journalism aspires to is presenting multiple perspectives. So for example, if they had published only this article, I would see that as pretty typical of what they do. Do I "agree" with this article? I don't have to agree or disagree. It's not weighing in, just describing different perspectives of the healthcare providers who actually provide this type of medical care. It even gives voice to those pointing out the harm that is caused when one side brings that internal debate among specialist medical providers to the popular press. But when you look at the aggregate coverage of the New York Times, you see how this article fits in with a very harmful project: In aggregate, the New York Times is clearly responsible for sowing doubt among liberals (the audience of the paper) about trans affirming care.
My evidence that they have an ideological project of sowing doubt about transgender identity is largely that the volume of their coverage of transgender healthcare is out of proportion with the occurrence of trans-affirming healthcare. So they can't reasonably claim that they just like to cover issues important to parents (there are lots of other issues parents think about that they don't write multiple feature articles about). They can't claim they just want to cover conflicts and controversies among healthcare providers (because there are lots of other medical treatments that providers disagree about, that do not warrant coverage, or this volume of coverage in the Times.) They are clearly fixated and focused on this issue and are not just neutrally covering whatever issues exist in the world in rough proportion to their occurrence. The volume of the coverage in a general-interest publication betrays their biases and anxieties.
posted by latkes at 9:19 PM on February 24, 2023 [12 favorites]
Would it be acceptable if there were more trans people?
posted by Zumbador 13 hours ago [3 favorites +] [!]
I definitely don't think transphobia is acceptable at all. I've lived my whole life as a gender non-conforming person and I am very aware that transphobia will catch me in it's net. And of course, discrimination is very wrong against groups with lots of members or very few. Let me rephrase my point:
The New York Times is in the business of publishing articles that explore multiple dimensions of an issue. They bring their biases to every issue, but the standard that non-sectarian journalism aspires to is presenting multiple perspectives. So for example, if they had published only this article, I would see that as pretty typical of what they do. Do I "agree" with this article? I don't have to agree or disagree. It's not weighing in, just describing different perspectives of the healthcare providers who actually provide this type of medical care. It even gives voice to those pointing out the harm that is caused when one side brings that internal debate among specialist medical providers to the popular press. But when you look at the aggregate coverage of the New York Times, you see how this article fits in with a very harmful project: In aggregate, the New York Times is clearly responsible for sowing doubt among liberals (the audience of the paper) about trans affirming care.
My evidence that they have an ideological project of sowing doubt about transgender identity is largely that the volume of their coverage of transgender healthcare is out of proportion with the occurrence of trans-affirming healthcare. So they can't reasonably claim that they just like to cover issues important to parents (there are lots of other issues parents think about that they don't write multiple feature articles about). They can't claim they just want to cover conflicts and controversies among healthcare providers (because there are lots of other medical treatments that providers disagree about, that do not warrant coverage, or this volume of coverage in the Times.) They are clearly fixated and focused on this issue and are not just neutrally covering whatever issues exist in the world in rough proportion to their occurrence. The volume of the coverage in a general-interest publication betrays their biases and anxieties.
posted by latkes at 9:19 PM on February 24, 2023 [12 favorites]
(The letter also points out specific problems with Bazelon's article which I link above, besides just taking it in aggregate with their other content)
posted by latkes at 9:23 PM on February 24, 2023
posted by latkes at 9:23 PM on February 24, 2023
The paper of record is under fire for its transphobic coverage. How did it get this bad, and who is calling the shots?
posted by Artw at 3:29 PM on February 27, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by Artw at 3:29 PM on February 27, 2023 [4 favorites]
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