How to Make American Drinking More Humane, More Elegant, More Fun
March 6, 2023 3:38 PM   Subscribe

Drinking will always be a fraught exercise, and I honor anyone who has soberly assessed how best to pursue the good for themselves and their loved ones and decided that it doesn’t include drinking. But for those of us still mixing martinis, the question is not how to drink as much as possible or as little as possible, but as well as possible. May we ask and answer with every glass. from How to Save American Drinking in Five Easy Steps by Clare Coffey
posted by chavenet (96 comments total) 14 users marked this as a favorite
 
Margaritas as flights is an absolute no from me. That's just silly. I also don't think 24 year olds should be able to invade other countries in the military but not buy a shot of booze.

That being said, I do agree with the author's other ideas. In regards to the beer in parks argument, I would be curious to find out when she lived there. When I was there twelve years the ONLY people I ever saw drinking in parks were the other foreign teachers.
posted by nestor_makhno at 4:00 PM on March 6, 2023 [4 favorites]


They wasted so many words when they could have just written “make IPAs illegal”.
posted by star gentle uterus at 4:07 PM on March 6, 2023 [45 favorites]


I am sure it varies somewhat from person to person, but I at least find that I finish each drink at exactly the same rate, irrespective of serving or vessel size. (This is in keeping with the variable experience of satiety, which can be elicited by a smaller serving of food when it fills a smaller dinner plate.)

I'm pretty sure that parenthetical sentence is referring to the studies done by that Cornell professor who got all kinds of attention but then got discredited and had to retract most of his work.

But the one I most frequently return to, drawn from his years of bartending, is, “Don’t do shots.”

Trouble at the bar always started, he said, when people started doing shots. Everything was good, rowdy fun as long as people stuck to beer. But when the shots came out, other things started: the fights and the quarrels, the tears and the puking and the stumbling.


I don't agree with where she goes in the following paragraphs, but this bit sure fits with a lot of bar trouble that I've seen. When the shots get started is when the slope gets steeper and the roller coaster picks up speed.
posted by Dip Flash at 4:21 PM on March 6, 2023 [16 favorites]


A lot of great stuff here from encouraging day drinking to smaller glasses. Might I add however: how about even lighter beers? It's so rare to find a 3% abv session ale on tap at most beer bars, and when they have them they're sold out half the time I try to order. Clearly they're popular!!

Let's get a 2.5% session pilsner so I can drink 6 of them -preferably in little 8oz glasses, and over the course of a 3-4 hours - and not feel like I'm going to die.
posted by windbox at 4:25 PM on March 6, 2023 [40 favorites]


"Make Glasses Small Again" - Montana true breweries can only sell 48 ounces of beer per person, per day. There has been a small trend among breweries to sell four 12 ounce beers instead of three 16 ounce pints. That's been nice to see as it is easier to drink less beer or to taste different beers.

"Make the drinking age the drinking ages." The great Mike Royko once said something like, "An 18 year-old will get drunker and do stupidier things than a 19 year-old. And that pattern continues up until around age 30, when the true drunks have sorted themselves out."
posted by ITravelMontana at 4:31 PM on March 6, 2023 [7 favorites]


The solution is to serve margaritas not in a glass, but in a flight of shot glasses, maximizing the vessel-to-rim ratio so you are never deprived of delicious salt.

This is exactly why I prefer the mini-Reeses Cups. That said, I vastly prefer straight tequila to a margarita, regardless of saltiness.
posted by Greg_Ace at 4:39 PM on March 6, 2023 [2 favorites]


The idea of not more or less, but better is kind of where I am with alcohol, as well as a lot less, to be honest. Beer in Japan is absurdly expensive compared to most countries where alcohol is regularly consumed. Imported beers, and any sort of craft beer start as twice as expensive as regular beers, and can often get much, much more expensive than that. While I’m not ready to throw down $12-15 for a can of beer, a lot of craft beer bars sell pints for as much, which means I need to be pretty damn picky about what I’m going to drink, and I won’t drink as much as I used to (when the expectation was to get stupid drunk and be non-functional for much of the following day). I’ll have a pint and a half pint, and then my wallet and I will both be done.

It makes choosing what I’m going to drink a bit more fraught, and makes me a lot pickier, and sometimes less adventurous, but my goal is to enjoy those beers I’m going to have. (If you have the chance, by which I mean, you are Canadian, seek out Peche Mortal from Godspeed, an imperial coffee stout. The little taster glass I had was fantastic, and one of the rare times when I wish I’d gotten the larger glass).

The pandemic and lack of socialization time showed me something important: I do not crave alcohol. It’s rare for me to drink at home at all, and when I do, I’m usually splitting a beer or two at most with Mrs. Ghidorah. We’ve cut back on buying beer because by the time we get to it, it’s well past its best by date. It’s when I’m in a social drinking situation that I’ll find myself drinking far more than I usually do, and it’s something I’m trying to be more conscious of. With chances to see other people (schedules not meeting, pandemics, you know), I want the few chances I get to last as long as they can, and most of those situations involve alcohol, so drinking keeps them going. I know it’s not great, and am doing what I can to be more conscious of that, and being more willing to say I’ve had enough for the night.
posted by Ghidorah at 4:41 PM on March 6, 2023 [8 favorites]


Wansink wankery aside, I love a half-pour and trying lots of delicious things, and I would love for fancy beers (especially the higher-ABV ones) to come in 6-8 oz. servings — and cans — as well. Low-proof beers are a welcome trend, and they’re especially great on a long hot day outside, but there is just something different about the flavor profile you can get out of something around 7-8%.
posted by en forme de poire at 4:42 PM on March 6, 2023 [7 favorites]


Why should I moderate my drinking? My body knows the right amount to drink. It's capitalism that is impinging on my natural chemical refractory period with arbitrary consecutive eight hour days. Make the work week 20 hours instead of 40 and stay out of my bar with your nonsense.
posted by lefty lucky cat at 4:46 PM on March 6, 2023 [31 favorites]


Much ink has been spilled over the inability of American workers to erect even the flimsiest boundaries between work and life. A little postprandial carafe of burgundy at lunchtime would go a long way toward solving the problem.

I'm not seeing how having a bunch of slightly tipsy coworkers would help keep things separated.
posted by The corpse in the library at 4:48 PM on March 6, 2023 [8 favorites]


I think it is also fairly normal for alcohol to have much more appeal when people are in groups vs. alone. I personally rarely have more than one drink if I’m home alone, and often I don’t even have to finish it to be satisfied. It’s very different from drinking with friends or at a bar.
posted by en forme de poire at 4:56 PM on March 6, 2023 [2 favorites]


As long as the half-sized servings are half-price too.
posted by Ahmad Khani at 5:12 PM on March 6, 2023 [9 favorites]


Drinking at lunch was more fun when I first started drinking. Now that I'm in my 30s, a glass of anything before 4pm makes me so tired that I feel like a zombie for the rest of the day. (It doesn't make sense! Why would a beer at noon make me want to go to sleep at 9, when shots at 5 will keep me up for hours?! It's so silly, but also absolutely true. I've basically given up on wine tasting; I hate losing the day.)

Cocktails are pretty small in the Bay Area. I have no idea where the restaurants get their glasses, because it does seem like all the newly made glasses are humongous. I had to buy some cute vintage glasses from ebay for my home. Wine glasses are huge, though -- both in my house and at every place I've ever had a drink -- and probably making me consume more than I should. I would be willing to try a return to the little wine glasses from The Godfather.
posted by grandiloquiet at 5:14 PM on March 6, 2023 [5 favorites]


The shots thing is very variable in my experience. It's definitely been a "here's to the end of the night" that stopped things from going too far. It's also been a sign that things have already gone too far. I'm boring though, and too far means tomorrow is too painful.

I'm definitely a fan of smaller! I like trying different things, and I don't really drink martini's fast enough for them to still be at an ideal temp when I'm done.
posted by ghost phoneme at 5:17 PM on March 6, 2023 [2 favorites]


♩♪♫ day drinking and I'm thinking of you ♫♪♩
posted by kirkaracha at 5:20 PM on March 6, 2023 [2 favorites]


They wasted so many words when they could have just written “make IPAs illegal”.

Them's fightin' words.

Although I could get behind banning hazy and/or fruity IPAs. I just want beer-flavored beer.
posted by kirkaracha at 5:22 PM on March 6, 2023 [9 favorites]


It's capitalism that is impinging on my natural chemical refractory period with arbitrary consecutive eight hour days. Make the work week 20 hours instead of 40 and stay out of my bar with your nonsense.
Remember, kids, work is the curse of the drinking classes.
posted by The Ardship of Cambry at 5:36 PM on March 6, 2023 [18 favorites]


As long as the half-sized servings are half-price too.

and have twice as much alcohol by volume
posted by philip-random at 5:38 PM on March 6, 2023 [3 favorites]


From a brewery perspective (cause that's my wheelhouse) - almost all of the brewers I've talked with over the years would kill to be able to have more session beers available. Hell, most of them when they go home at the end of the day drinking something like Coors Banquet.

The problem is that the average consumer won't buy those more sessionable beers - by and large. It doesn't really cost less to make a 3.2% bitter than a 7.5% IPA and therefore the price per pint isn't hugely different. (Ingredients are a tiny fraction o the overall cost of a pint) American beer buyer blend a mix of penny pinching with bravado about getting the most bang for their buck in terms of hops and ethanol and so even your standard 5.5% Pale Ale gets dusted by "cost conscious" purchasers.

One of my local breweries had as a flagship a nice 3.5% mild that was beloved by brewers, bar staff, hospitality people and yet it just wouldn't move in the market (same for other beers in that strength category). Eagle Rock now makes that mild a few times a year, promotes it when they do, and then stashes kegs in deep cold store to keep it around, but its no longer a flagship.
posted by drewbage1847 at 5:48 PM on March 6, 2023 [6 favorites]


Although I could get behind banning hazy and/or fruity IPAs. I just want beer-flavored beer.

Looks like I'm gonna have to start going to the gym, getting in shape, working on my stamina CUZ I'M GONNA TAKE YOU OUT IN THE WORST WAY.

What I mean to say is that fruity beers are delicious and have a time and place ESPECIALLY AFTER DELIVERING A BEATING.

Or in other words, it's okay to not like fruity beers - you do you.

But honestly, a grapefruit beer is totally delightful, again, at the right time and in the right place.

I realize that you stated fruity IPA, and this is a radler. If I am mistaken and you actually like radlers, please accept my apologies and drinks are on me.
posted by ashbury at 5:51 PM on March 6, 2023 [13 favorites]


Drinking at lunch was more fun when I first started drinking. Now that I'm in my 30s, a glass of anything before 4pm makes me so tired that I feel like a zombie for the rest of the day.

Same here. I used to have a glass of wine - two at most - at the office holiday party every year, and nothing got done that afternoon.
posted by The Underpants Monster at 5:54 PM on March 6, 2023 [2 favorites]


When I went to America IPAs were just coming in and I was like "oh these are really good, I hope they come to Australia soon". And I still like them but I think there might've been a monkey's paw somewhere in that bar so I'm sorry.
posted by solarion at 5:55 PM on March 6, 2023 [10 favorites]


Has anybody brought up non alcoholic beers yet? I have been pleasantly surprised over the past few years in the growth of good quality nonalcoholic beers of all sorts - even the mass market Heinekens and such are pretty refreshing (not Budweiser Prohibition Brew though - that's still swill).

If you are a beer drinker who wants to cut down for whatever reason, I highly recommend trying out some zero beers. Most restaurants and bars seem to carry at least one type now.

I gave up alcohol entirely a few years ago as I approached forty, and have been very pleased to see I can still have a cold brew on occasion.
posted by fortitude25 at 6:06 PM on March 6, 2023 [20 favorites]


The author is bang on about the legal age. When I taught at universities I was always struck by the fundamental cultural difference between the American exchange students and the domestic Australian students; the former were both more and less worldly, in that they hadn't had the same opportunity as the Australians (drinking age 18) to be part of a culture of open alcohol consumption. Not to say they hadn't been exposed to alcohol, far from it, they just had a very different set of assumptions about their youth and drinking, and from my perspective, alarming ones.

W/r/t alcohol and workplaces, my first white collar job (late 90s) in an otherwise very staid, ties-and-jackets financial services firm, had a culture of workplace drinking, which was as far as I could tell shared across the industry at the time; a good fraction of the office would head to the pub downstairs at lunchtime, have a few, then come back and work. My boss joined us quite a few times. Different divisions would make up pretexts for social events to invite people to their corners of the office for afternoon drinks. I, the 18 year old junior, was sent down to the bottle shop with a trolley to get the order. Drinking (as opposed to being drunk!) was completely normal in a way that seems baffling now, there's really been a taboo drawn on the notion of alcohol being a workplace drug and associated with labour, which of course it has been for thousands of years.
posted by Fiasco da Gama at 6:19 PM on March 6, 2023 [5 favorites]


In February, I went to the Trivia Night at a near-ish firehall. It's a fundraiser, comes with a firehall turkey dinner and small games of chance along with the trivia stuff. It's a four hour evening event and it's BYOB.

Anyway, I brought my kit for margaritas -- whole limes and a paring knife and my lime juicer tool and a salt/demerara mix -- big crunchy crystals -- for the rims and my cocktail shaker and my own good ice and my heavy-duty glass pint glass (There is 2.5 oz of booze, the juice of 1 lime, a dash of simple, and A LOT of ice in my margaritas.) -- y'know, all the things one needs to make PROPER margaritas. I did premix the tequila, cointreau, and simple at home, but the lime juice was added fresh at the time of shaking. I used a nice $80/bottle anejo tequila that is quite drinkable straight.

As I've gotten older, I've found that the occasional DELIGHTFUL margarita pencils out to costing about as much as every-weekend near-bottomless fishbowls of neon green "adult slushies" that are, judging by my experiences with same, comprised entirely of regret and sour mix.

So, at Trivia Night, I proceeded to make my margaritas (I brought enough stuff for two, which is a reasonable amount of margaritas for a 4 hour trivia event followed by a 40 minute drive home by the Designated Driver, one of which we bring every single year). Reader, people eyerolled me. I'm there, doing my margarita thing, and people are eyerolling at me. Some of those people doing the eyerolling were drinking box wine. In public.

Y'know, fine. Eyeroll away, people who think the name of that river in London rhymes with James.
First off, I got to have very delicious margaritas. Secondly, my team won the effing trivia contest. So there.
posted by which_chick at 6:33 PM on March 6, 2023 [21 favorites]


I drink very little, but I do like a brunch cocktail* (a single cocktail - I am a mega lightweight) on occasion because afterwards you have all day to nap, putter around, etc and then wake up the next day feeling fine.

*As long as it's not a Bloody Mary
posted by vespabelle at 6:46 PM on March 6, 2023 [3 favorites]


Many years ago, there was a Canadian TV advert where an exuberant hockey game spontaneously happens in a busy downtown street.

Soon after, there was a comedy skit with the same thing, but with cop cars flashing. "This is what happens when you drink at lunch."
posted by ovvl at 6:51 PM on March 6, 2023 [1 favorite]


Yeah, NA beers have gotten way better... Athletic, Brewdog, and Flying Dog all make ones that are very drinkable (including a grapefruit ale if you like that sort of thing). I’ve been pleased to see Hoppy Refresher available at more grocery stores also, though that’s of course a different animal.

I do find the lunch time alcohol suggestion kind of mystifying. I can’t even really day-drink on the weekends (anymore, anyway) unless I’m like, on vacation, and have totally foreclosed on the possibility of getting anything done that day anyway. Alcohol at lunch also seems to presuppose a culture of work lunches that are taken away from your desk or break room and that last more than 30 minutes.
posted by en forme de poire at 7:14 PM on March 6, 2023 [11 favorites]


Drinking at lunch or the park: another argument for fixing public transit and ending America's car dependence, if reason were needed.
posted by blnkfrnk at 7:52 PM on March 6, 2023 [9 favorites]


fortitude25 and en forme de poire have a line on it. The Athletic NA beers are surprisingly good and they're growing leaps and bounds. I've been pleasantly surprised at how good the Heine 0 and Guinness 0 are, but that Lagunitas Hoppy Refresher is my go to "sitting in the backyard with the wife on a weeknight" drink of choice.
posted by drewbage1847 at 8:06 PM on March 6, 2023 [4 favorites]


The distribution of alcohol drinking across the US population is famously very skewed -- a small share of people drink a large share of booze, and the median alcohol consumption is close to zero.

The distribution of alcohol drinking within a particular life seems to be pretty skewed also. Several of the points in the article speak to this. We typically drink only at night instead of spreading it out over the day. We do it either in private or in special drinking contexts, instead of taking it with us to various contexts. And we're not supposed to do it at all when we're growing up, but then when we're allowed to do it at all, we're allowed to go absolutely insane with it, and we do. The absoluteness of the prohibition and the general moralism around alcohol seems to feed rather than suppress the extremes of young adult drinking.

Anyway I'm wondering if these two skews are related to each other in any way. Do cultures that drink more moderately also have a flatter alcohol consumption-population curve?
posted by grobstein at 8:26 PM on March 6, 2023 [5 favorites]


Alcohol at lunch also seems to presuppose a culture of work lunches that are taken away from your desk or break room and that last more than 30 minutes
THIS IS WHAT THEY HAVE TAKEN FROM US
posted by Fiasco da Gama at 8:39 PM on March 6, 2023 [13 favorites]


The "French lunch with a small bottle of wine" has a really interesting backstory that includes the legal prohibition of eating lunch at your desk, enacted for health reasons.

Pretty much no chance of the park thing happening. That would require US cities to have parks or any kind of public space, and people to live within walking distance of them, if there's a sidewalk. We just have sprawl and cars here.
posted by meowzilla at 10:20 PM on March 6, 2023 [9 favorites]


I like some of the suggestions in this article.

But it perpetuates this notion of false grown-up-ness around alcohol: if you are a stable, upper-class, respectable, Euro or Euro-adjacent person you can do this sophisticated and fun adult thing! Bend the norms, do a little day-drinking and beers in the park! There are no rules.

Besides the double standards re who is allowed to do this without reproof, we tend to associate a Churchill-ish moral superiority with someone who can sustain this kind of consumption, which (a) is really a matter of luck, and (b) an unrealistic goal for the rest of us to aim for.

Better for us as a society to treat alcohol with a little bit of healthy fear, and not let it intrude into *every* hour and place of life.
posted by splitpeasoup at 10:23 PM on March 6, 2023 [6 favorites]


Last time I did shots I woke up in a jail cell in Yreka, California with paperwork in my bag that said I’d been taken by ambulance to a nearby ER for alcohol poisoning and head trauma. I had no memory of the hospital.

The value of shots is zero.
posted by bendy at 11:24 PM on March 6, 2023 [7 favorites]


7 steps too few
posted by thedaniel at 11:28 PM on March 6, 2023 [2 favorites]


Beers in the park are awesome! I spent many happy afternoons in Dolores Park in San Francisco with big Tecates in brown paper bags and/or a friend who’d bring a thermos full of White Russians.
posted by bendy at 11:28 PM on March 6, 2023 [5 favorites]


My stepmother spent a lot of her teens and 20s in Germany, and her contention is that our drinking laws and culture are based around our need to drive from an early age to work. This just isn't the case in most of Europe. So allowing teens to drink and having people drink a bit more at lunch just don't fit our big-ass country and its sick-ass car culture.
posted by es_de_bah at 3:43 AM on March 7, 2023 [6 favorites]


The NA beers (Athletic Brewing Co in particular) are amazing and alternating a regular beer with one of those sort of approximates drinking a couple 3% beers over the same time period. I'm also a huge fan of how commonplace it is for cocktail bars around here to have really well thought-out, delicious, alcohol-free cocktails on the menu. I sort of miss those wild nights of my 20s and 30s sometimes, but the costs outweigh the benefits more and more as I get older.
posted by misskaz at 4:27 AM on March 7, 2023 [4 favorites]


I really like German beer gardens. The law requires them to allow you to bring your own food, and I remember one in Munich (?) that was sort of surrounded by a food market with all sorts of nice things suitable for your lunch.
posted by Phanx at 4:31 AM on March 7, 2023 [4 favorites]


The problem is that the average consumer won't buy those more sessionable beers - by and large. It doesn't really cost less to make a 3.2% bitter than a 7.5% IPA and therefore the price per pint isn't hugely different.

But also, people are buying 4.2% Guinness at a premium all day long -- why not a 4% bitter instead? I really enjoyed drinking bitter in the UK on vacation, where I could have 2 with lunch and not want to either a) curl up and go to sleep; or b) dance down the street to the next pub for another, which is usually how I feel after two lunch pints of 6% American beer.

Hell, I just want better availability of English-style ales in the US, generally. I can't even get London Pride around here anymore, which used to be fairly common. Even ESBs, which are weightier and so an easier sell, are rare as hen's teeth, and are generally brewed to American tastes (more hops, less esters) when you do find them (I'm looking at you, Three's).

Anyway, I do really like the point about park-drinking in the article. Separating alcohol from family life really is a loss. Convivial consumption -- as opposed to getting-blotto consumption -- seems important to model, to me, and pretty much the best use-case for alcohol.
posted by uncleozzy at 4:39 AM on March 7, 2023 [6 favorites]


As someone who really needs to moderate their drinking for stupid health reasons, I kinda appreciate stanky IPAs.

I can nurse a pint of that skunk for a long long time.
posted by Sauce Trough at 4:43 AM on March 7, 2023 [1 favorite]


"Make Glasses Small Again": I bought several boxes of 8.5-ounce flip-top bottles, and I fill them with the mead I make. It's a small drink, just enough to taste good without getting warm or flat or the flavor turning.

Smol drinks are good.
posted by wenestvedt at 5:43 AM on March 7, 2023 [5 favorites]


uncleozzy: why not a 4% bitter instead?

YES! YES! Bring back bitter!
posted by wenestvedt at 5:51 AM on March 7, 2023 [6 favorites]


Alcohol is the worst curse upon humanity. I'm middle-aged and have seen more lives wrecked by alcohol than any other cause, by far. Not even misogyny approaches the swath of damage and destruction wrought by alcohol over decades and hundreds and hundreds of acquaintances. Even at my age, when the people drinking LaCroix at the party are beginning to outnumber the people drinking alcohol, there's still so much horror. So yeah, nurse a pint if you like the taste, but let's not save American drinking.

I do like Gen Z for somewhat normalizing it being okay not to drink, or not to drink much.
posted by outgrown_hobnail at 6:04 AM on March 7, 2023 [7 favorites]


Might I add however: how about even lighter beers?

My homebrews have been trending lighter and lighter, my next batch is going to be in the 4% ABV range. I love regular IPAs and DIPAs but they're just too much for me now. You can pack a lot of hop character into a beer without jacking up the alcohol content, and there's no reason not to.
posted by tommasz at 6:37 AM on March 7, 2023 [2 favorites]


....I note that there's nothing about normalizing non-alcoholic social drinking.

Maybe that's why coffee shops are such a Thing - it's a social drinking option for people who don't want to go to a bar, where you have a hope of having some kind of variety instead of just a glass of seltzer and that's it.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 6:39 AM on March 7, 2023 [6 favorites]


I find this article to be relative nonsense - just that boring, striving, upper middle class sensibility that sees sophistication in all things European-ish. One can do all these cutesy little things in her 1-4 if you have an office job, live in a city (I can buy beer in my local park), or learn how to order a martini. Her last one is a reasonable policy decision but does little to make drinking "sophisticated", it just is a safer way to introduce younger people to alcohol.

I mean, if you really want to improve American drinking culture, do more to address the relationship between consumption and masculinity and build a social safety net and open culture that supports the relatively high percentage of those who drink that end up struggling with alcohol.
posted by RajahKing at 7:01 AM on March 7, 2023 [15 favorites]


The salted rim on margaritas is the 'minivan sliding door' of the auto world. Everyone is like 'woooo' that's awesome but in reality it has a very tiny niche and mostly blows, and that's why all other cars have normal doors. Sure, there are plenty of other drinks that could have a salted rim, and it's extremely easy to salt a rim, but in reality most people don't want it.
posted by The_Vegetables at 8:10 AM on March 7, 2023 [2 favorites]


Alcohol is the worst curse upon humanity. I'm middle-aged and have seen more lives wrecked by alcohol than any other cause, by far. Not even misogyny approaches the swath of damage and destruction wrought by alcohol over decades and hundreds and hundreds of acquaintances.

I don't know the stats on alcohol but a while back I heard them on heroin. The rest of this is from a previous thread on the problem of gaming addiction.

Most people don't ever even try heroin ... certainly not intentionally. It's a drug that carries with it all kinds of dire warning bells. So rather like base jumping (or whatever) most people never even think of trying.

Of those who do try it at least once, 15-percent end up addicts.

So the question that perhaps needs to be asked isn't, Why is heroin so addictive? but what is it about that 15-percent of an already small minority that puts them so at risk of heroin addiction?

Which, of course, speaks to:

(quoting someone else from earlier in that thread:

"my understanding of alcoholism as a psychiatric diagnosis is that it tends to be seen as indicative of another disorder - that the physiological component is only one piece of a larger puzzle of cognitive / behavioral addiction. a video gaming disorder, similarly, would fall very naturally into one of the broader umbrella categories if it were a disorder listed in the DSM"


I raise all this because I happen to think alcohol is not the worst curse upon humanity. Far from it. In many situations, for very many people, it can be an entirely positive thing. Used in moderation, it relaxes, it loosens one up, it allows for connection and related good will that would be difficult to achieve otherwise -- certainly not so easily.

That's a baby I'm not interested in seeing tossed out with some admittedly dodgy bathwater.
posted by philip-random at 8:33 AM on March 7, 2023 [19 favorites]


I don't think changing the drinking age to 26 or whatever would have any impact on shots. Gateway drinks taste like non-alcoholic drinks, like Boone's Farm and alco-pops, not like straight alcohol. Of course a bartender might not like shots, but that person is not seeing the entirety of the drinking of the people doing them, nor are they seeing the 'drinking growth' that led them to doing shots. They could have been pounding 50/50 screwdrivers for years or liquor/soda combos. In that, a shot is not much different.
posted by The_Vegetables at 8:54 AM on March 7, 2023 [2 favorites]


nth-ing NA beers having improved. They've gone from sad corn sodas to fairly tasty. Brewdog and Athletic are great, Partake is maybe my favorite NA session beer (those go down very easy and are only ~20 calories) and I'm warming up to Gruvi's nitrogenated stuff.

The older I get, the more I value drinking as a social activity/ritual, but the finer the line gets between "I've had the right amount and feel pleasant and relaxed" and "tomorrow I will learn about my evening via secondhand accounts." (Those evenings are not much worse than "You were a little loud then fell asleep and possibly ate something you ought not have" but still.)

I like NA beers because I can engage in the ritual without having to navigate the wobbly tolerance levels of my middle age.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 8:59 AM on March 7, 2023 [2 favorites]


a glass of anything before 4pm makes me so tired that I feel like a zombie for the rest of the day

I had a great summer job in 1974, working at a lab on an Army base with a group that was developing methods to make the new red LEDs lase. Lunchtime was always at the Officers Club, with the scientists sharing at least one pitcher of beer. "The past is a foreign country; they do things differently there."
posted by Rash at 9:02 AM on March 7, 2023 [4 favorites]


Gonna make a martini to wash this thread down.
posted by A Terrible Llama at 9:12 AM on March 7, 2023 [2 favorites]


20 years ago, I worked at the oldest continually-operating architectural firm in America, located in downtown Boston. We had our own archivist (Rob) as well as a librarian (Kathryn, I believe). There were many bowties.

When someone left, there was a bed-sized cake and a champagne toast for all 200+ of us, sometime in the afternoon.

The first Friday of the month, the lady who was in charge of "the boys" -- most of whom were graduate students in architecture, and not boys at all -- would send one or two of them to the liquor store to pick up a hand-selected couple of cases of longnecks, which were served primly (with a few potato chips) in the conference room. Everyone under 25 swung by, snagged an expensive beer, and bailed immediately.

The past, it was a different country, &c.
posted by wenestvedt at 9:35 AM on March 7, 2023 [4 favorites]


Day-drinking is where it's at.

I am old, but still have a liver of iron. Unfortunately, I have an esophageal sphincter like the old, stretched-out waistband of a pair of granny panties. Alcohol consumed at dinner is sometimes okay, but anything after dinner gives me raging heartburn.

If I don't have any early-afternoon meetings, I get together with a dear colleague for a lunch of tortilla chips, guacamole, and tequila, and it is sublime.
posted by BrashTech at 9:36 AM on March 7, 2023 [6 favorites]


I think all drinks, including sparkling waters, could stand to be 8 ounces.
posted by tofu_crouton at 9:46 AM on March 7, 2023 [6 favorites]


I worked with a guy who's Father was in the Military as he was growing up. They were posted to Germany and in his teens he got a "helper" type job outside the base. He told me his eyes got very big when around 10:00 AM they brought a cart around and handed off a (big) schooner of beer to everyone. It came around again about 2:00. He said he was so sloshed he could hardly walk.
posted by aleph at 10:04 AM on March 7, 2023 [1 favorite]


I was hanging out at a small American brewery when a German cyclist came in, and he was incredulous that the bartender was not willing to put beer directly into his water bottle.
posted by credulous at 10:10 AM on March 7, 2023 [10 favorites]


I got a tour of the old (now decommissioned) Molson brewery in Edmonton, they totally used to pour off pints from taps installed in the lunchroom, not sure when the practice ended but I'm guessing by the 80s. Some of those men (it was men) would climb into forklifts and scoot around for the duration of the afternoon.

Speaking of military my brother introduced me to someone who served with the teams they send in to ensure arms agreements are being met, many former Soviet countries, and invariably the real meetings involved bottles of vodka. To be effective at the job, a person needed to hold their liquor.
posted by elkevelvet at 10:29 AM on March 7, 2023 [2 favorites]


Some of those men (it was men) would climb into forklifts and scoot around for the duration of the afternoon.

Takes me back to drunk-driving golf carts at the Farm Bureau golf tournament, when the players would share the samples from local wineries with us volunteers.
posted by The Underpants Monster at 10:33 AM on March 7, 2023 [4 favorites]


Laughs in Stoner
If y'all wanna drink, go for it. :)
posted by luckynerd at 10:51 AM on March 7, 2023 [2 favorites]


I wish intoxicants in general were nicer to me :( I moved to a weed legal state only to find that the "good stuff" feels great but gives me a super annoying case of cotton mouth.

Booze and I are basically like my old highschool friends, we can only mix so much before regret sets in.
posted by emjaybee at 10:57 AM on March 7, 2023 [5 favorites]


It came out in the news a few years ago that alcoholic beverages are carcinogenic. Drinking alcohol raises your risk of developing head and neck, breast, colorectal, esophageal, liver, stomach and pancreatic cancers. From what I've read, the science on this is very clear, and there is no safe amount.

This isn't surprising -- how could drinking something that is a disinfectant be good for you -- but I was surprised by how crushed I was to read it. I have never been much of a drinker, and barely drink at all of late years because I can't afford to, but I did really enjoy having that occasional drink. And as one comment I saw on the Toronto Star tweet about this news said, "We'll discuss this after the pandemic is over."
posted by orange swan at 10:57 AM on March 7, 2023 [4 favorites]


Fans of day drinking might enjoy this local public TV documentary about Rhode Island's hometown brewery, Narragansett, streaming free online at https://www.ripbs.org/production/locals/hi-neighbor/

The show features many shots of workers drinking on the job, and cheerfully discussing how it was a popular benefit of the job.
posted by wenestvedt at 11:23 AM on March 7, 2023 [1 favorite]


It came out in the news a few years ago that alcoholic beverages are carcinogenic.

the bigger development I think has been a lot of the research purporting to show health benefits not holding up - light to moderate drinkers have lower overall mortality than non-drinkers, but not if you adjust for the drinkers being healthier in other ways

The cancer news isn’t particularly new news, to my knowledge, but I guess it wasn’t that well publicized before, and when that’s put together with the once-vaunted cardiovascular benefits looking dubious, it means that any level of drinking probably corresponds with at least a mild increase in overall risk.
posted by atoxyl at 11:34 AM on March 7, 2023 [2 favorites]


Bonus Narragansett fact - the modern incarnation of the brewery has a fantastically awesome head brewer in Lee Lord, first female head brewer over Narragansett's 130 year history.
posted by drewbage1847 at 11:35 AM on March 7, 2023 [3 favorites]


The cancer news isn’t particularly new news, to my knowledge

actually this is maybe an example of CA’s Prop 65 doing something useful, because I’m pretty sure alcohol has had a mandated cancer warning here as long as I can remember
posted by atoxyl at 11:41 AM on March 7, 2023 [2 favorites]


Shit; esophageal cancer runs in my family, and it just made its first appearance in my cohort of cousins. And he was a heavy drinker until a few years ago.
posted by The Underpants Monster at 11:58 AM on March 7, 2023 [1 favorite]


The carcinogenic nature of alcohol isn't new news at all, along with the many other health harms from alcohol, but the US doesn't do a good job at all of educating the public about it, in part, I think, because it leaps from puritanical and judgmental, to full-on industry capture of regulations, with little in between. I was very impressed with the recent Canadian guidelines, which resonated more with me, personally, and inspired me to adopt a much lower weekly limit for my own drinking. Which, in turn, has inspired me to delve much deeper into the world of NA drinking. I realize that apparently "hazy IPA" are fightin' words around here, but the Rationale hazy citrus IPA is my current obsession.

There's also a lovely NA cocktail bar here, which will serve up tasty drinks.
posted by gingerbeer at 12:06 PM on March 7, 2023 [2 favorites]


The carcinogenic nature of alcohol isn't new news at all

I think it’s also probably a surprise to a lot of people that it’s linked to, say, breast cancer, something that’s less obvious than liver or GI tract cancer.

(I think the main reason it has such systemic carcinogenic risks is the metabolism to acetaldehyde, an established carcinogen, but there might be more to it as well).
posted by atoxyl at 12:16 PM on March 7, 2023 [3 favorites]


One of the things I like about the Canadian guidelines is Table 1 on p. 25 (for women) showing how the risk of a wide range of health conditions goes up with more drinks per week. I looked at that and drew my line at 3. Others might draw a line somewhere else. It affects the risk of TB and lower respiratory infections, pancreatitis, hypertension, epilepsy: it's not just liver cancer and cirrhosis.

Table 2 for men is on the next page.
posted by gingerbeer at 12:46 PM on March 7, 2023 [4 favorites]


I was working at a craft beer import company last year and yeah, non-alc is making big leaps and strides not just in popularity but in flavour and quality as well. If you can find Brulo’s Lust For Life it’s truly fantastic. Gone are the days of hop water.

Non alc wine and spirits have a long way to go, you’re much more likely to pick up something truly awful.

We were seeing some great breweries starting to make non alc options and also micro ipas that were 2-3.5%. Sometimes you want to crush a 4 pack but you don’t want to feel terrible. It’s great to have those options. I think in the North American craft scene some of these brewers are getting older and having families and in general are thinking more about sobriety and alcoholism.

Currently I’m on the dating apps and the amount of sober people has greatly increased, it’s great to see. Lot of people switching over to decaf coffee too, but that’s a different conversation.
posted by Neronomius at 12:58 PM on March 7, 2023 [2 favorites]


Showing my science ignorance, here: do non-alcoholic beers carry any of the health risks that alcoholic beers do? Is it just the alcohol that's the problem, or is it anything in the manufacturing? (I snagged a six-pack of Athletic IPA at the store today because of this conversation.)
posted by The corpse in the library at 1:01 PM on March 7, 2023 [1 favorite]


how about even lighter beers? It's so rare to find a 3% abv session ale on tap at most beer bars

Yes! But make them taste good, please. We don't need more Michelob Ultra's. We need more 2.5-3% sessions ales that actually taste like beer. I'd happily switch to lighter fare if it didn't taste like beer brewed by a homeopath.

I know it's possible, because I've had a few English "small beer" that were just as tasty as higher ABV stuff, but it's hard to find (at least where I live). The mini non-alcoholic craft beer boom is further proof that you can make beer with little or no alcohol without making it taste like extremely watered-down Coors Light. But because the market is relatively small, some of these non-alcoholic options are more expensive that standard beer, which is quite a feat given Canada's relatively high taxes on alcohol.
posted by asnider at 1:12 PM on March 7, 2023 [3 favorites]


I got a tour of the old (now decommissioned) Molson brewery in Edmonton, they totally used to pour off pints from taps installed in the lunchroom, not sure when the practice ended but I'm guessing by the 80s. Some of those men (it was men) would climb into forklifts and scoot around for the duration of the afternoon.

The EPS (used to?) have vending machines with beer in them, at least in the downtown HQ. In theory, this was so police coming off the night shift could relax with a beer among colleagues at a time when the bars and liquor stores wouldn't yet be open. But it also meant cops having a few too many -- at work, even if not on active duty -- and then driving home while their buddies turned a blind eye.

While sobriety or so-called "sober curious" movements are picking up a lot of steam, especially among younger people, toxic drinking culture still exists in a lot of industries and demographics. It's just less overt than it might have been 10, 20 or 30 years ago.
posted by asnider at 1:22 PM on March 7, 2023 [3 favorites]


I am old enough to have first hand experience of a culture where you pretty much drove home, didn't really matter what your condition was.. everyone knew the back roads.. and last year I had to respond to a friend getting caught in a check stop, had to go pick them up, drove them to get the breath testing kit installed a few months later, what a change. The blood alcohol rating has nothing to do with how safe you think you are to drive, it's a number, and if you blow over that number you're fucked. Harsh, but unfortunately that's the only way you can try to curb some of these attitudes. Younger people seem much smarter than I ever was, about that. Mind you, my nephews seem to think cannabis has zero impact on ability to operate a vehicle so there's that.
posted by elkevelvet at 1:29 PM on March 7, 2023 [2 favorites]


Agree that Brewdog and Athletic NAs are tasty and good for variety. I'm not aware of any health risks apart from the tiny amount of ethanol. The hops are probably good for you and some of them have as little as 20 calories, much less than a regular beer or soda.
posted by credulous at 1:31 PM on March 7, 2023 [3 favorites]


The United States is not ranked particularly high compared to other developed countries with regard to alcohol consumption, but our life expectancy is dramatically lower (and dropping). I'd say that there are bigger issues at fault, especially for those people who are consuming less than a few drinks per week.

But I'm down with the increased proliferation of NA beers because there doesn't seem to be a lot of beverage options that aren't beer, soda, wine, or coffee.
posted by meowzilla at 2:21 PM on March 7, 2023 [4 favorites]


The Guinness and Sam Adams NA beers are both good enough that you would not ID them as NA in a blind taste test. A discerning drinker would know it's not a real Guinness as the mouthfeel is a little thin, but the flavor is spot on.

My local brewery brewed a 3.2% Mild Ale a few years ago that was just fabulous. It was a test batch, and he hasn't brewed it again, as he said I drank about 40% of it. However, his 3.5% wheat beer just sold out quick, so that one is coming back ASAP, and hopefully he will keep it on tap.
posted by COD at 3:01 PM on March 7, 2023 [1 favorite]


Soda water with bitters is an easy mocktail in the low alcohol range and nearly universally available at US (full) bars.

As I've gotten older, the more I've realized that mass alcohol consumption served as a lame disinhibition ritual and socialization cue; my preferred alternatives rely on self acceptance and good communication. Hangovers, too, have their own, replaceable social functions (e.g. rituals of caring).

I've been more joyful with alcohol decentered from my social life (that means not living the prohibitionist life either). A sip of nice whiskey here, a beer after heavy exertion there are still an option, but setting the default to booze just makes life boring, regardless of exotic qualities.
posted by grokus at 3:25 PM on March 7, 2023 [2 favorites]


I'd happily switch to lighter fare if it didn't taste like beer brewed by a homeopath.

In a temporary brain-glitch I read this as “brewed by a sociopath” and had to laugh.
posted by bendy at 3:28 PM on March 7, 2023 [7 favorites]


It affects the risk of TB and lower respiratory infections

Some interesting data in that chart. But I think one needs to be careful interpreting these statisitics. Correlation is not causation. In this case, according to the table (page 35) a woman drinking 35 drinks / week (e.g. 5 per day) has a 3.3x rate of tuberculosis.

Accoding to this page, being an Canadian-born Indigenous People is correlated with about a 2.7x rate of TB.

I would suspect that this apparent correlation between alcohol and TB is driven by other socioeconimic variables, rather than some sort of direct biological link between the two.

By contrast, the rate of liver cirrhosis in a woman drinking 5 per day is 13x higher than a non-drinker, and I would presume this is more of a causal relationship directly due to ethanol.

Also of interest, the chart for women shows a small reduction in risk for Pancreatitis and Diabetes with moderate drinking; for men there is a small increase in risk or no change. I wonder why the difference? Self-selection or diagnostic differences?
posted by soylent00FF00 at 3:39 PM on March 7, 2023 [3 favorites]


It's worth reading the whole report and the additional documentation if you have questions about it. Per the report:

"Alcohol has been found to causally increase the risk of lower respiratory infections
(Samokhvalov et al., 2010a). "
posted by gingerbeer at 6:22 PM on March 7, 2023 [1 favorite]


Well, "TB" is not what is medically considered a "lower respiratory infection" at least not in the epidemiological sense in the article you mention ("tuberculosis" or "TB" does not appear in that article).

This is likely a base-rate fallacy:
* TB happens in about 5 per 100,000 population
* Pneumonia happens something like 200x to 2400x as often, e.g. about 1000 to 12000 per 100,000 population.

I'm sure that drinking vast quantities of ethanol is bad for one's health, but to say that it leads to a major increase in a (very) rare infectious disease such as TB is probably not true.
posted by soylent00FF00 at 6:33 PM on March 7, 2023 [3 favorites]


So even after complaining about Threes's ESB above (which is good! just a little American for my taste), I just ordered a couple of 4-packs of their other ESB (4.7%) and dark mild (3.5%). They deliver to my doorstep and I had a $10 coupon, so... here goes! And yep, I paid full craft-beer triple-IPA price for light beer abv, which is totally fine by me.

I drink so little these days -- most weeks nothing at all, some weeks 2-3 beers on a Saturday or Sunday -- that it feels silly to spend so much on beer that will likely sit around for weeks or more before I get through it, but I really do enjoy it, when I drink it.
posted by uncleozzy at 6:39 AM on March 8, 2023 [2 favorites]


I don't drink enough beer to justify homebrewing anymore, and would rather spend the time birding at this point, but one of the main reason I homebrewed was so I could make English-style lower alcohol ales. I had a standard progression from dark mild to ESB to a relatively light porter, reusing the yeast as I went. They were all under 5%, and better than any English-style aies I've had from US breweries. I'm in New Jersey, and it looks like I can find Three's not too far away, so I'll look around for it.
posted by mollweide at 9:17 AM on March 8, 2023 [2 favorites]


My local brewery brewed a 3.2% Mild Ale a few years ago that was just fabulous

Apparently Minnesota is the last 3.2% beer state, and people in 3.2% states spent a lot of time trying to get around those rules.

From the 3.2 link:
"State to state, the laws which birthed three-two beer vary. In states like Colorado, 3.2 laws restricted certain retailers (like grocery stores) from selling any stronger beer. Sometimes, as in Oklahoma and Utah, that severely restricted the ability of people to find normal-strength beer, due to a lack of approved liquor stores. In not-too-distant history, 3.2 beer was legal for 18-year-olds to drink in some states. But in general, only apathy and business pressures have kept 3.2 percent beer in stores; people generally hate it, and hate the laws that birthed it"
posted by The_Vegetables at 9:42 AM on March 8, 2023 [2 favorites]


mollweide: That just reminded me! The best local-ish English-style ale I managed to find over the years was Better than Pants by Man Skirt Brewing in Hackettstown, NJ. I bought it canned, and this was probably 2016ish, so who knows if the recipe has changed since then. But if you're ever in the neighborhood, it's worth a look. I remember it being estery and hopped appropriately and I was disappointed that I didn't buy more of it.
posted by uncleozzy at 10:19 AM on March 8, 2023 [3 favorites]


Oh, the Better than Pants description on their website sounds promising. I might have to make it a point to get up that way soon, thanks!
posted by mollweide at 10:35 AM on March 8, 2023 [1 favorite]


This is a great thread.

Day drinking: I was amazed, when staying at a hotel in Munich, to be offered the "Barvarian breakfast", comprising sausage, pretzel and a stein of wheat beer. I didn't partake because, well, not sure it would start my working day off well.

Beer strength: it does seem that craft beer in the US is generally stronger than in the UK. When in NY it seems unusual to find a craft beer at 6% or less, with most around 7%. Here, the beers in my local run from 3.5% to 5% with a couple at 5.5% or 6%, but it's unusual to find anything stronger.

There is an increasing number of good low/no alcohol beers here in the UK from sites like Dry Drinker and Wise Bartender. I particularly like Brooklyn's Special Effects, St. Peter's Without, Beavertown's Lazer Crush, and anything from Insel-Brauerei. The AF Guinness is also surprisingly good.
posted by 43rdAnd9th at 12:20 PM on March 8, 2023 [2 favorites]


>
Well, "TB" is not what is medically considered a "lower respiratory infection" at least not in the epidemiological sense in the article you mention ("tuberculosis" or "TB" does not appear in that article).

This is likely a base-rate fallacy:
* TB happens in about 5 per 100,000 population
* Pneumonia happens something like 200x to 2400x as often, e.g. about 1000 to 12000 per 100,000 population.


I spend a lot of time criticizing people who confuse correlation and causation, so I appreciate the skepticism, but this report is based on causal factors. I'm impressed that you're willing to dig up other statistics, so you may want to dig into what's actually in the report. The methodology and underlying research and meta reviews are all listed. So here's the reference on tuberculosis, from the Canadian report.

Alcohol consumption as a risk factor for tuberculosis: meta-analyses and burden of disease

(Bonus: Targeting harmful use of alcohol for prevention and treatment of tuberculosis: a call for action)
posted by gingerbeer at 12:29 PM on March 8, 2023 [2 favorites]


Day drinking: I was amazed, when staying at a hotel in Munich, to be offered the "Barvarian breakfast", comprising sausage, pretzel and a stein of wheat beer. I didn't partake because, well, not sure it would start my working day off well.

I did this one day in Munich. It was an excellent decision. I really, really love fresh hefeweizen. Another style that Americans generally don't make.
posted by uncleozzy at 12:50 PM on March 8, 2023 [2 favorites]


Day drinking: I was amazed, when staying at a hotel in Munich, to be offered the "Barvarian breakfast"

One of my favourite things to have when going out for breakfast is sausages, fried eggs, hashbrowns, toast, black coffee, and a pint of stout. An oatmeal stout if they have it, otherwise Guinness.
posted by fimbulvetr at 12:59 PM on March 8, 2023 [2 favorites]


I just ordered a couple of 4-packs of their other ESB (4.7%) and dark mild (3.5%)

Small update! The dark mild ("Theatre of the Absurd") was pretty good! Nice roasty-toasty malt with some chewy graininess at the end. Only real complaint is that I would have liked a little less bittering and a little more malt character and body. But at 3.5% you can only expect so much. Overall a beautiful beer that I hope they keep making.
posted by uncleozzy at 5:36 AM on March 10, 2023 [1 favorite]


All this talk of home brewing reminds me of the time Dad tried to make hard cider from some of our annual sweet cider stash (we had a small orchard just for our own use) and the keg exploded all over the cellar.
posted by The Underpants Monster at 1:28 PM on March 10, 2023 [2 favorites]


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