Why buy the cow?
March 12, 2023 11:53 PM Subscribe
Moooove over: How single-celled yeasts are doing the work of 1,500-pound cows "Dozens of companies have sprouted up in recent months to develop milk proteins made by yeasts or fungi. ... The companies’ products are already on store shelves in the form of yogurt, cheese and ice cream, often labeled 'animal-free.' The burgeoning industry, which calls itself 'precision fermentation,' has its own trade organization, and big-name food manufacturers such as Nestlé, Starbucks and General Mills have already signed on as customers."
"The rapid advancement in this area has sparked hope for a revolution in the dairy industry, and not just because it’s kinder to the cows. Precision dairy doesn’t have cholesterol, lactose, growth hormones or antibiotics (though those with dairy allergies should beware). And cattle, for beef or dairy, is said to be the No. 1 agricultural source of greenhouse gases worldwide. Consumers concerned about climate change or animal welfare have been anticipating the U.S. launch of cultivated meat, which is grown in labs from animal cells, but cultivated dairy could have just as much of an impact on the environment — with fewer regulatory hurdles to clear."
"The rapid advancement in this area has sparked hope for a revolution in the dairy industry, and not just because it’s kinder to the cows. Precision dairy doesn’t have cholesterol, lactose, growth hormones or antibiotics (though those with dairy allergies should beware). And cattle, for beef or dairy, is said to be the No. 1 agricultural source of greenhouse gases worldwide. Consumers concerned about climate change or animal welfare have been anticipating the U.S. launch of cultivated meat, which is grown in labs from animal cells, but cultivated dairy could have just as much of an impact on the environment — with fewer regulatory hurdles to clear."
Their assertions about being the greatest agricultural are similarly at odds with what I’ve heard before. The U.S. EPA data doesn’t support that claim with all livestock in total being only about half:
https://cfpub.epa.gov/ghgdata/inventoryexplorer/#agriculture/entiresector/allgas/category/all
I support developments in this area but I would be skeptical of corporate geeenwashing any time a single new technology is being presented as the solution to a major problem like this.
posted by adamsc at 4:31 AM on March 13, 2023 [3 favorites]
https://cfpub.epa.gov/ghgdata/inventoryexplorer/#agriculture/entiresector/allgas/category/all
I support developments in this area but I would be skeptical of corporate geeenwashing any time a single new technology is being presented as the solution to a major problem like this.
posted by adamsc at 4:31 AM on March 13, 2023 [3 favorites]
That General Mills cream cheese? It’s marketed as a “lactose-free, non-animal cream cheese alternative.” Mars describes its new chocolate as a silky smooth chocolate (not an “alternative” to chocolate) that uses “real dairy protein …. without any inputs from animals.” Brave Robot ice cream leans heavier on the sustainability and cruelty-free aspects. So even the messaging around precision dairy could be confusing.
I hope they do impose uniform labeling so people with lactose intolerance can identify what triggers symptoms.
Interesting article, thanks for posting, and love the title.
posted by joannemerriam at 4:39 AM on March 13, 2023 [8 favorites]
I hope they do impose uniform labeling so people with lactose intolerance can identify what triggers symptoms.
Interesting article, thanks for posting, and love the title.
posted by joannemerriam at 4:39 AM on March 13, 2023 [8 favorites]
While I think the technology is useful and interesting, it's not the yeast- created protein that i would worry about, it's all the other additives. What is replacing the lactose? HFC? Sugar alcohol?
I would like a lot of transparency in additives.
posted by CheeseDigestsAll at 5:41 AM on March 13, 2023 [9 favorites]
I would like a lot of transparency in additives.
posted by CheeseDigestsAll at 5:41 AM on March 13, 2023 [9 favorites]
Not as big as livestock, but synthetic dairy would move some major numbers in CO2 footprint.
https://shrinkthatfootprint.com/food-carbon-footprint-diet/
posted by condour75 at 5:56 AM on March 13, 2023 [5 favorites]
https://shrinkthatfootprint.com/food-carbon-footprint-diet/
posted by condour75 at 5:56 AM on March 13, 2023 [5 favorites]
What I wonder is, once all these alternatives have replaced the need for the dairy cow, do they all get killed? Or just sent out into the wild to fend for themselves like the pigeons were after WWII? Which is the most humane?
posted by HypotheticalWoman at 6:01 AM on March 13, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by HypotheticalWoman at 6:01 AM on March 13, 2023 [1 favorite]
Most dairy cows are slaughtered after 4-5 years when they start producing less milk. That's what would happen. But if the farms didn't need to replace them it would end there except for small family farms and artisanal operations. They'd stop breeding them. Overall cow suffering would go down.
posted by emjaybee at 6:27 AM on March 13, 2023 [29 favorites]
posted by emjaybee at 6:27 AM on March 13, 2023 [29 favorites]
Meh, this just reads like ad copy. I highly doubt this is going to replace milk unless:
1. The new milk is as cheap as the current dairy milk.
2. It tastes about the same or can at least replace milk in all its culinary functions (ice cream, cheese, sauces, pastry, etc.) without a major overhaul of independent production processes.
3. The production process of this new milk is straightforward and easily repeatable at scale with little variation.
Those problems have relegated the current alternative milks to the health food aisle as an alternative for those who just want to do consumerist activism or can't/don't do dairy. I dig oat milk, but a gallon of oat milk would be reckless on my budget, I can't make ricotta or any standard derivatives with it, and not all oat milk tastes the same for some reason so I gotta know which brand is good.
I hope something can eventually replace the dairy industry that isn't the full collapse of modern civilization. But such a thing would have to be a miracle. It would have to come in a sea of sweeping innovation that isn't challenged by massive entrenched worldwide dairy industries. This example just feels like a pointless VC arms race over fermentation technology hoping to strike gold or at least legitimate the money they've already blown through to find more investors or to fit into a quarterly report for stock analysts to go "oh nestle is focused on the future, maybe buy nestle."
I know I'm being cynical but it feels like we've been here before.
posted by Philipschall at 6:43 AM on March 13, 2023 [7 favorites]
1. The new milk is as cheap as the current dairy milk.
2. It tastes about the same or can at least replace milk in all its culinary functions (ice cream, cheese, sauces, pastry, etc.) without a major overhaul of independent production processes.
3. The production process of this new milk is straightforward and easily repeatable at scale with little variation.
Those problems have relegated the current alternative milks to the health food aisle as an alternative for those who just want to do consumerist activism or can't/don't do dairy. I dig oat milk, but a gallon of oat milk would be reckless on my budget, I can't make ricotta or any standard derivatives with it, and not all oat milk tastes the same for some reason so I gotta know which brand is good.
I hope something can eventually replace the dairy industry that isn't the full collapse of modern civilization. But such a thing would have to be a miracle. It would have to come in a sea of sweeping innovation that isn't challenged by massive entrenched worldwide dairy industries. This example just feels like a pointless VC arms race over fermentation technology hoping to strike gold or at least legitimate the money they've already blown through to find more investors or to fit into a quarterly report for stock analysts to go "oh nestle is focused on the future, maybe buy nestle."
I know I'm being cynical but it feels like we've been here before.
posted by Philipschall at 6:43 AM on March 13, 2023 [7 favorites]
How do these products end up tasting? I've tried many, many dairy- and meat-alternatives in recent years. A few have made it into regular rotation, I would gladly eat most at a friend's house, but none have been really convincing substitutes for meat and dairy.
"Natural" or traditional dairy and meat alternatives like coconut milk ice cream, cashew spread or standard mock duck have, so far, seemed much more satisfying than the cutting edge ones, almost all of which have weird taste/texture issues and/or nutrition problems. (I'm not saying I don't like, eg, a Daiya grilled cheese, but it has less protein and nutrients than a cheese grilled cheese and thus can't be a regular part of the ol' diet.)
One thing I've noticed - "premium" fake meat products have driven prices up across the board. I was at Target yesterday and they wanted thirteen American dollars for a small package of "ultimate" fake chicken burgers. They seem to have reduced their old fashioned Morningstar selection too, and even it has gone up. My personal fake-meat consumption has fallen off a cliff, actually, since at those prices I'll mostly do without and buy the occasional co-op meat product. I am not paying thirteen dollars for four fake chicken patties.
posted by Frowner at 6:44 AM on March 13, 2023 [18 favorites]
"Natural" or traditional dairy and meat alternatives like coconut milk ice cream, cashew spread or standard mock duck have, so far, seemed much more satisfying than the cutting edge ones, almost all of which have weird taste/texture issues and/or nutrition problems. (I'm not saying I don't like, eg, a Daiya grilled cheese, but it has less protein and nutrients than a cheese grilled cheese and thus can't be a regular part of the ol' diet.)
One thing I've noticed - "premium" fake meat products have driven prices up across the board. I was at Target yesterday and they wanted thirteen American dollars for a small package of "ultimate" fake chicken burgers. They seem to have reduced their old fashioned Morningstar selection too, and even it has gone up. My personal fake-meat consumption has fallen off a cliff, actually, since at those prices I'll mostly do without and buy the occasional co-op meat product. I am not paying thirteen dollars for four fake chicken patties.
posted by Frowner at 6:44 AM on March 13, 2023 [18 favorites]
Considering the kind of grass a cow eats seems to affect the taste of the produced cheese I’d say we still have a long way to go. Food and taste are more complex than just replicating the dominant components.
posted by WaterAndPixels at 7:40 AM on March 13, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by WaterAndPixels at 7:40 AM on March 13, 2023 [3 favorites]
It is challenging to find any information on the internet about PF that isn't a breathless piece on how transformative it will be or just ad copy.
posted by grumpybear69 at 7:56 AM on March 13, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by grumpybear69 at 7:56 AM on March 13, 2023 [3 favorites]
This isn’t supposed to replace your artisanal dairy products. It’s supposed to replace the use of industrial milk proteins that are used by industrial dairy products, which are supplied by industrial dairy farms with 5,000 to 45,000 or more cows in a single operation. Climate aside, these operations are DEVASTATING to the local environment, destroying both surface and groundwater quality. Anything that can be done to kill off industrial dairy is a good thing.
posted by rockindata at 7:58 AM on March 13, 2023 [34 favorites]
posted by rockindata at 7:58 AM on March 13, 2023 [34 favorites]
As the parent of a child who is anaphylactic to milk proteins, my response is (STRING OF EXPLETIVES); it's already difficult to find certain categories of food without whey added in (most loaves of bread at a typical supermarket contain whey). I know this might be beneficial to vegans but this could be a logistical nightmare for food labeling. I wonder if these foods will be labeled as "contains milk" if they don't contain actual cow-produced milk?
posted by sencha at 8:02 AM on March 13, 2023 [8 favorites]
posted by sencha at 8:02 AM on March 13, 2023 [8 favorites]
I'm with you, Frowner, on the premium fake meat etc. I can't stand Beyond or Impossible, but I love a good bean burger or seitan bahn mi.
posted by grumpybear69 at 8:17 AM on March 13, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by grumpybear69 at 8:17 AM on March 13, 2023 [1 favorite]
I noticed that about fake meat, too! They're pricing it like it's an actual sausage and not a bunch of soy byproduct with flavoring. I know factory farming is cheap and brutal but even that has to be legitimately costlier than molding tofu.
posted by kingdead at 8:28 AM on March 13, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by kingdead at 8:28 AM on March 13, 2023 [3 favorites]
What I wonder is, once all these alternatives have replaced the need for the dairy cow, do they all get killed?
No, they just don't get replaced. The cows currently alive won't be made fully obsolete in their lifetimes. But as the demand for cow-dairy goes down, the dairy industry will start inseminating/breeding fewer cows to replace the ones that age out.
posted by foldedfish at 9:14 AM on March 13, 2023 [7 favorites]
No, they just don't get replaced. The cows currently alive won't be made fully obsolete in their lifetimes. But as the demand for cow-dairy goes down, the dairy industry will start inseminating/breeding fewer cows to replace the ones that age out.
posted by foldedfish at 9:14 AM on March 13, 2023 [7 favorites]
It seems like most folks in this thread have already heard of precision fermentation and formed opinions about it, but this is the first I'm hearing of it. I share some of the "but is it viable?" skepticism I'm reading here, but I want this to succeed. The article points out that they're hoping to make cheese out of this stuff, and where I live it's hard to get a block of cheddar that wasn't made in a giant cesspool of a megadairy, so if they figured just that out I'd be pretty happy about it.
Thanks for sharing this, Artifice_Eternity.
posted by Leeway at 9:22 AM on March 13, 2023 [15 favorites]
Thanks for sharing this, Artifice_Eternity.
posted by Leeway at 9:22 AM on March 13, 2023 [15 favorites]
The Beyonds etc. are currently a premium product. As these things.move down market the price should come down.
posted by Mitheral at 9:24 AM on March 13, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by Mitheral at 9:24 AM on March 13, 2023 [3 favorites]
I noticed that about fake meat, too! They're pricing it like it's an actual sausage and not a bunch of soy byproduct with flavoring. I know factory farming is cheap and brutal but even that has to be legitimately costlier than molding tofu.
The Impossible products, at least, are considerably more complicated than molded tofu.
posted by Artifice_Eternity at 9:33 AM on March 13, 2023 [2 favorites]
The Impossible products, at least, are considerably more complicated than molded tofu.
posted by Artifice_Eternity at 9:33 AM on March 13, 2023 [2 favorites]
How do these products end up tasting? I've tried many, many dairy- and meat-alternatives in recent years. A few have made it into regular rotation, I would gladly eat most at a friend's house, but none have been really convincing substitutes for meat and dairy.
This is bioidentical milk protein, produced by genetically engineered yeast. So it's not a milk substitute in the way that oat milks, nut milks, etc. are. It's essentially "real" dairy from a non-animal source.
posted by Artifice_Eternity at 9:35 AM on March 13, 2023 [10 favorites]
This is bioidentical milk protein, produced by genetically engineered yeast. So it's not a milk substitute in the way that oat milks, nut milks, etc. are. It's essentially "real" dairy from a non-animal source.
posted by Artifice_Eternity at 9:35 AM on March 13, 2023 [10 favorites]
I increased my veganism level recently (full vegan) so I have been trying out different non-dairy cheeses. A lot of pizza places around here will do a vegan-cheese pizza, and I find that I can usually tolerate them. The cheese involved is normally of the daiya style, if not the daiya brand name, meaning it is some kind of suspension of starch in fat that's supposed to approximate the texture of shredded mozzarella. I don't think I've ever really liked that kind of substitute, though.
However, I've also been experimenting with the Miyoko's line of what they call cultured nut cheeses (wow, does that sound gross or what?). These generally have a bit more real cheese flavor and can be a bit more tasty. But what I want to talk about is specifically the Miyoko's liquid pizza cheese that comes in a bottle (even that sounds gross, doesn't it?). If you use this stuff right, it's actually really good. I have been putting it on homemade pizzas. It took me a while to get it how I like it, but I'm really hitting a sweet spot now. I use about a quarter cup IIRC to top a pretty thick 10-inch pizza, and I make sure it partly emulsifies with the tomato sauce (especially the grease in the sauce). Then you get a tangy and savory, mottled red-and-yellow-white surface like you often see on a New York slice, and it's good. Idk if I can say it's "like the real thing," I wouldn't even know anymore. But I regard it as basically pizza without compromise.
(My first few times trying to do pizza with this product, it resulted in a kind of gummy shell on top of the pie, which didn't taste bad but was off-putting in terms of texture. I think I may have used too much of the cheese -- go easy while you're figuring it out. Also, I think, the cheese maybe has less fat content than a real mozzarella you'd use, or anyway less fat content than it needs to shine. So mixing it up a little with a greasy sauce helps, as does drizzling a little olive oil over the top.)
posted by grobstein at 9:39 AM on March 13, 2023 [6 favorites]
However, I've also been experimenting with the Miyoko's line of what they call cultured nut cheeses (wow, does that sound gross or what?). These generally have a bit more real cheese flavor and can be a bit more tasty. But what I want to talk about is specifically the Miyoko's liquid pizza cheese that comes in a bottle (even that sounds gross, doesn't it?). If you use this stuff right, it's actually really good. I have been putting it on homemade pizzas. It took me a while to get it how I like it, but I'm really hitting a sweet spot now. I use about a quarter cup IIRC to top a pretty thick 10-inch pizza, and I make sure it partly emulsifies with the tomato sauce (especially the grease in the sauce). Then you get a tangy and savory, mottled red-and-yellow-white surface like you often see on a New York slice, and it's good. Idk if I can say it's "like the real thing," I wouldn't even know anymore. But I regard it as basically pizza without compromise.
(My first few times trying to do pizza with this product, it resulted in a kind of gummy shell on top of the pie, which didn't taste bad but was off-putting in terms of texture. I think I may have used too much of the cheese -- go easy while you're figuring it out. Also, I think, the cheese maybe has less fat content than a real mozzarella you'd use, or anyway less fat content than it needs to shine. So mixing it up a little with a greasy sauce helps, as does drizzling a little olive oil over the top.)
posted by grobstein at 9:39 AM on March 13, 2023 [6 favorites]
Precision dairy doesn’t have cholesterol
I guess a few decades ago we thought that cholesterol in food was a main cause of blood-cholesterol problems, but we don't anymore. This argument makes me think that the article's author hasn't really kept up with current science.
The author isn't making an argument, they're simply stating a fact: precision dairy products don't contain cholesterol.
posted by Artifice_Eternity at 9:45 AM on March 13, 2023 [3 favorites]
I guess a few decades ago we thought that cholesterol in food was a main cause of blood-cholesterol problems, but we don't anymore. This argument makes me think that the article's author hasn't really kept up with current science.
The author isn't making an argument, they're simply stating a fact: precision dairy products don't contain cholesterol.
posted by Artifice_Eternity at 9:45 AM on March 13, 2023 [3 favorites]
I noticed that about fake meat, too! They're pricing it like it's an actual sausage and not a bunch of soy byproduct with flavoring. I know factory farming is cheap and brutal but even that has to be legitimately costlier than molding tofu.
The Impossible products, at least, are considerably more complicated than molded tofu.
Beyond does not contain soy at all. Also no gluten if that’s an issue.
posted by nat at 9:52 AM on March 13, 2023 [4 favorites]
The Impossible products, at least, are considerably more complicated than molded tofu.
Beyond does not contain soy at all. Also no gluten if that’s an issue.
posted by nat at 9:52 AM on March 13, 2023 [4 favorites]
Meh, this just reads like ad copy. I highly doubt this is going to replace milk unless:
1. The new milk is as cheap as the current dairy milk.
2. It tastes about the same or can at least replace milk in all its culinary functions (ice cream, cheese, sauces, pastry, etc.) without a major overhaul of independent production processes.
3. The production process of this new milk is straightforward and easily repeatable at scale with little variation.
Not sure if you read the article? This quote speaks to your point 1:
Precision fermentation dairy’s growth has to happen fast to be price-competitive with traditional animal dairy and to gain widespread adoption, said Ravi Jhala, Perfect Day’s global head of commercial.
To your point 2: The article opens by talking about a meal full of dairy-rich foods, including a soup, a cake with cream cheese frosting, ice cream, and a latte, all made with this bioidentical milk protein. The article goes on to discuss companies that make all manner of foods contracting to use this stuff as well.
To your point 3: The production process is similar to the one used to make beer, insulin, and all kinds of other stuff. It's just yeast in big fermentation tanks, with precisely controlled inputs, temperature, etc. If anything, it's probably far more easily standardized than the production of regular cow-derived milk.
I never heard of this stuff before yesterday, and I'm not necessarily an advocate for it, but I think it's extremely interesting.
posted by Artifice_Eternity at 9:53 AM on March 13, 2023 [9 favorites]
1. The new milk is as cheap as the current dairy milk.
2. It tastes about the same or can at least replace milk in all its culinary functions (ice cream, cheese, sauces, pastry, etc.) without a major overhaul of independent production processes.
3. The production process of this new milk is straightforward and easily repeatable at scale with little variation.
Not sure if you read the article? This quote speaks to your point 1:
Precision fermentation dairy’s growth has to happen fast to be price-competitive with traditional animal dairy and to gain widespread adoption, said Ravi Jhala, Perfect Day’s global head of commercial.
To your point 2: The article opens by talking about a meal full of dairy-rich foods, including a soup, a cake with cream cheese frosting, ice cream, and a latte, all made with this bioidentical milk protein. The article goes on to discuss companies that make all manner of foods contracting to use this stuff as well.
To your point 3: The production process is similar to the one used to make beer, insulin, and all kinds of other stuff. It's just yeast in big fermentation tanks, with precisely controlled inputs, temperature, etc. If anything, it's probably far more easily standardized than the production of regular cow-derived milk.
I never heard of this stuff before yesterday, and I'm not necessarily an advocate for it, but I think it's extremely interesting.
posted by Artifice_Eternity at 9:53 AM on March 13, 2023 [9 favorites]
The Impossible products, at least, are considerably more complicated than molded tofu.
I'm not averse to paying more for fancier stuff, up to a point - I actually like both Beyond and Impossible burgers and the Impossible sausage for occasional use, and the price has been coming down a little bit on both as the market has grown. But there's definitely an upward price narrative with a lot of "ultimate" faux chicken and falafel stuff in particular, where you're paying far more than you would for similar meat products and there doesn't seem to be the same level of investment in technology. Even the old Green Giant and Morningstar stuff is getting priced way up at Target, at least, and again, I'm not willing to pay $7 for small bag (not the jumbo bag) of Morningstar soy nuggets.
Impossible/Beyond runs $1.80 to $2.50 per patty, depending on exactly what you buy and if you're willing to shape it out of the pea protein goo yourself. I'm not willing to pay more than that for a slightly reconfigured chickpea burger, but there's clearly a lot of marketing narrative around "premium" products based on Impossible/Beyond.
posted by Frowner at 9:54 AM on March 13, 2023 [3 favorites]
I'm not averse to paying more for fancier stuff, up to a point - I actually like both Beyond and Impossible burgers and the Impossible sausage for occasional use, and the price has been coming down a little bit on both as the market has grown. But there's definitely an upward price narrative with a lot of "ultimate" faux chicken and falafel stuff in particular, where you're paying far more than you would for similar meat products and there doesn't seem to be the same level of investment in technology. Even the old Green Giant and Morningstar stuff is getting priced way up at Target, at least, and again, I'm not willing to pay $7 for small bag (not the jumbo bag) of Morningstar soy nuggets.
Impossible/Beyond runs $1.80 to $2.50 per patty, depending on exactly what you buy and if you're willing to shape it out of the pea protein goo yourself. I'm not willing to pay more than that for a slightly reconfigured chickpea burger, but there's clearly a lot of marketing narrative around "premium" products based on Impossible/Beyond.
posted by Frowner at 9:54 AM on March 13, 2023 [3 favorites]
Those problems have relegated the current alternative milks to the health food aisle as an alternative for those who just want to do consumerist activism or can't/don't do dairy.
I suspect the truth of that assertion is very, very regional. It's not remotely true here in Seattle. Even at stores like Safeway and QFC, alt milks are just sitting there right next to the cow milk.
It's a recent development here, and I'm sure very different in other places. My household has gone from ~90% cow milk to ~80% oat milk in the last two years.
posted by gurple at 10:00 AM on March 13, 2023 [2 favorites]
I suspect the truth of that assertion is very, very regional. It's not remotely true here in Seattle. Even at stores like Safeway and QFC, alt milks are just sitting there right next to the cow milk.
It's a recent development here, and I'm sure very different in other places. My household has gone from ~90% cow milk to ~80% oat milk in the last two years.
posted by gurple at 10:00 AM on March 13, 2023 [2 favorites]
Dairy is also abysmally cruel. Separating lactating mammals from their offspring again and again is really fucked up. I get why it's done, but it's crueler than just raising an animal and killing it.
Eh. It's worth noting that most dairy cows have preeeetty much zero maternal instinct and sometimes injure or kill calves if they are left together, so separating calves out doesn't distress the cows any. Additionally, it's standard to transition dairy calves from individual calf hutches to small groups of 5-12 calves fairly quickly for social development, welfare, and economic reasons: calves in social housing eat more, gain weight better, and are more profitable than calves raised alone. In the case of replacement heifers, calves raised in groups also develop better social skills, which makes managing your herds easier later on.
I'm not necessarily averse to trying new kinds of making milk, but I don't think dairy is inherently cruel and I think that imposing and enforcing welfare standards are a better practice than trying to eradicate domestic breeds of animal. I'm also a little cynical about the price of products like this, especially because the milk proteins--the caseins found in whey--are probably the least overall valuable components of milk relative to price, and the most obvious benefits that I can see to being able to adjust the proportions of the macronutrients in milk are about things like reducing relatively non-valuable water whey production for operations like Greek yogurt producers. Many milk products function by adjusting the ratios of water, whey protein, casein, and cream to
I'm mostly sitting here trying to figure out what the fuck they're doing about the milkfat, though. Are they making cream? I don't think so. They're working on pure whey protein and maybe casein protein. But whey protein is already the kind of thing that gets extracted and repurposed because originally it was treated as waste byproduct in an attempt to get the valuable cream for cheese. Are they adding replacement fats? From what sources? It's relatively easy to leave the carbohydrate lactose out, but what goes in instead? They're not producing fluid whole milk; they're producing specifically whey protein here. That... does not have the potential to replace whole milk that they're arguing it does.
posted by sciatrix at 10:38 AM on March 13, 2023 [21 favorites]
Eh. It's worth noting that most dairy cows have preeeetty much zero maternal instinct and sometimes injure or kill calves if they are left together, so separating calves out doesn't distress the cows any. Additionally, it's standard to transition dairy calves from individual calf hutches to small groups of 5-12 calves fairly quickly for social development, welfare, and economic reasons: calves in social housing eat more, gain weight better, and are more profitable than calves raised alone. In the case of replacement heifers, calves raised in groups also develop better social skills, which makes managing your herds easier later on.
I'm not necessarily averse to trying new kinds of making milk, but I don't think dairy is inherently cruel and I think that imposing and enforcing welfare standards are a better practice than trying to eradicate domestic breeds of animal. I'm also a little cynical about the price of products like this, especially because the milk proteins--the caseins found in whey--are probably the least overall valuable components of milk relative to price, and the most obvious benefits that I can see to being able to adjust the proportions of the macronutrients in milk are about things like reducing relatively non-valuable water whey production for operations like Greek yogurt producers. Many milk products function by adjusting the ratios of water, whey protein, casein, and cream to
I'm mostly sitting here trying to figure out what the fuck they're doing about the milkfat, though. Are they making cream? I don't think so. They're working on pure whey protein and maybe casein protein. But whey protein is already the kind of thing that gets extracted and repurposed because originally it was treated as waste byproduct in an attempt to get the valuable cream for cheese. Are they adding replacement fats? From what sources? It's relatively easy to leave the carbohydrate lactose out, but what goes in instead? They're not producing fluid whole milk; they're producing specifically whey protein here. That... does not have the potential to replace whole milk that they're arguing it does.
posted by sciatrix at 10:38 AM on March 13, 2023 [21 favorites]
Isn't keeping them pregnant also pretty cruel?*
*This may be a derail because animal rights/welfare is not the primary motivation for the creation of lab-generated milk.
posted by Selena777 at 11:12 AM on March 13, 2023 [3 favorites]
*This may be a derail because animal rights/welfare is not the primary motivation for the creation of lab-generated milk.
posted by Selena777 at 11:12 AM on March 13, 2023 [3 favorites]
Are you seriously suggesting that we should be barred from talking about animal welfare in conjunction with animal-product replacements?
posted by rhymedirective at 11:37 AM on March 13, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by rhymedirective at 11:37 AM on March 13, 2023 [1 favorite]
No, I'm just saying that it may be seen as a tertiary factor for the company making this product and it can spin off into arguments. I myself have been surprised about how animal welfare has taken a backseat to environmental and personal health concerns when discussing this subject.
posted by Selena777 at 12:01 PM on March 13, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by Selena777 at 12:01 PM on March 13, 2023 [2 favorites]
Maybe this will reduce the extravagant daity industry subsidies? I hear we already have several billion dollars worth of cheese stored away.
posted by nofundy at 12:31 PM on March 13, 2023
posted by nofundy at 12:31 PM on March 13, 2023
Sciatrix is correct in her description of modern dairy practices. Things are much better for cows and calves now, with considerate handling techniques, better pen and barn design, and more effort made towards keeping "contented cows."
I've seen a major change in how dairies are run here in Idaho over the last 30 years. All good, but current milk production leaves a sour taste when you realize these changes weren't brought about by humane or ethical considerations but are driven by profits. Even corporations can get behind beneficence for animals, provided there's $$$ involved. Now humans are a different story. There's a definite population of illegal aliens employed in Southern Idaho. Crap wages, poor housing, no insurance for dairy workers here. The U.S. is literally importing poverty and suffering. But again, cost savings!!
None of this addresses environmental degradation of dairy production, but I'm sure there will be definite negative impacts to massive yeast and fungi corporate food production that haven't been addressed.
posted by BlueHorse at 12:44 PM on March 13, 2023 [6 favorites]
I've seen a major change in how dairies are run here in Idaho over the last 30 years. All good, but current milk production leaves a sour taste when you realize these changes weren't brought about by humane or ethical considerations but are driven by profits. Even corporations can get behind beneficence for animals, provided there's $$$ involved. Now humans are a different story. There's a definite population of illegal aliens employed in Southern Idaho. Crap wages, poor housing, no insurance for dairy workers here. The U.S. is literally importing poverty and suffering. But again, cost savings!!
None of this addresses environmental degradation of dairy production, but I'm sure there will be definite negative impacts to massive yeast and fungi corporate food production that haven't been addressed.
posted by BlueHorse at 12:44 PM on March 13, 2023 [6 favorites]
Producing cultured cheese depends on the presence of lactose so I’m curious about the implications there, as well as the fat and calcium content.
posted by the duck by the oboe at 12:53 PM on March 13, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by the duck by the oboe at 12:53 PM on March 13, 2023 [1 favorite]
It was funny for me to read how breathless this piece is when I visited the folks behind Real Vegan Cheese back in 2016. It seems like milk substitutes should be easier than lab grown meats and I look forwards to more vegan alternatives.
posted by crossswords at 4:08 PM on March 13, 2023
posted by crossswords at 4:08 PM on March 13, 2023
I can't read that "Milk has lot all meaning" article, but milk's definition includes plant milk even in the very first English dictionary, and that definition was carried across into the first American dictionary.
The example usage of "milk" for plant milk in the first dictionary is a quote from Francis Bacon (contemporary of Shakespeare) describing his favourite mix of macadamia and almond milk.
A Forme Of Cury, the oldest known cookbook in English, includes plant milk recipes (and recipes using plant milk) and calls the white liquid from plants... milk.
So if anyone is going to get angry about companies changing the meaning of English words, that anger should be directed at the organisations trying to stop almond, soy and oat milk using the word "milk" on their labels. Their campaigns are based on deliberate lies.
posted by BinaryApe at 1:05 AM on March 14, 2023 [9 favorites]
The example usage of "milk" for plant milk in the first dictionary is a quote from Francis Bacon (contemporary of Shakespeare) describing his favourite mix of macadamia and almond milk.
A Forme Of Cury, the oldest known cookbook in English, includes plant milk recipes (and recipes using plant milk) and calls the white liquid from plants... milk.
So if anyone is going to get angry about companies changing the meaning of English words, that anger should be directed at the organisations trying to stop almond, soy and oat milk using the word "milk" on their labels. Their campaigns are based on deliberate lies.
posted by BinaryApe at 1:05 AM on March 14, 2023 [9 favorites]
once all these alternatives have replaced the need for the dairy cow, do they all get killed?
Well, my understanding is that newborn male dairy cows already get killed pretty quickly, sometimes within a few days, sometimes shunted into the extremely cruel veal industry and killed a couple of months later, sometimes sent to feedlots where they may get a year or two of fattening. That's a lot of killing:
Calves that are not needed for milk production or those that aren't reared for veal or beef are known as bobby calves. These mostly male calves are sent to a saleyard or abattoir at five days or older.
The Humane League:
In the United Kingdom, where veal crates have long been outlawed due to their overt cruelty, it's often cheapest to simply shoot male calves shortly after their birth. In the UK, close to 60,000 male calves are disposed of in this way every year. This practice is also disturbingly common in the United States, and in Australia, one survey revealed that around 600,000 male calves were killed on dairy farms every year when they are just a week old.
posted by mediareport at 9:17 AM on March 14, 2023 [2 favorites]
Well, my understanding is that newborn male dairy cows already get killed pretty quickly, sometimes within a few days, sometimes shunted into the extremely cruel veal industry and killed a couple of months later, sometimes sent to feedlots where they may get a year or two of fattening. That's a lot of killing:
Calves that are not needed for milk production or those that aren't reared for veal or beef are known as bobby calves. These mostly male calves are sent to a saleyard or abattoir at five days or older.
The Humane League:
In the United Kingdom, where veal crates have long been outlawed due to their overt cruelty, it's often cheapest to simply shoot male calves shortly after their birth. In the UK, close to 60,000 male calves are disposed of in this way every year. This practice is also disturbingly common in the United States, and in Australia, one survey revealed that around 600,000 male calves were killed on dairy farms every year when they are just a week old.
posted by mediareport at 9:17 AM on March 14, 2023 [2 favorites]
most dairy cows have preeeetty much zero maternal instinct...so separating calves out doesn't distress the cows any
That is an extraordinarily broad statement; I'm surprised to see it from you, sciatrix. Part of the problem, of course, is that there's a strong financial disincentive to carefully study the maternal instinct in cows, particularly dairy cows in factory settings. But I'd love to know of anything you've seen.
posted by mediareport at 9:21 AM on March 14, 2023 [4 favorites]
That is an extraordinarily broad statement; I'm surprised to see it from you, sciatrix. Part of the problem, of course, is that there's a strong financial disincentive to carefully study the maternal instinct in cows, particularly dairy cows in factory settings. But I'd love to know of anything you've seen.
posted by mediareport at 9:21 AM on March 14, 2023 [4 favorites]
Btw, here's a WaPo gift link to the article if anyone needs it.
posted by mediareport at 9:23 AM on March 14, 2023
posted by mediareport at 9:23 AM on March 14, 2023
most dairy cows have preeeetty much zero maternal instinct
What? No. Cows mourn for their babies just like humans do. And while I'm glad to hear they are being treated better in some places, in other places it simply isn't true. It is not cost efficient to make sure cows do not suffer or feel pain, and the machines many get hooked up to cause pain and infections that go untreated. I've seen plenty of videos where babies are dragged or carried away while the cow cries and tries to move toward her baby (see Joey Carbstrong or Earthling Ed for videos if you must). The newborns are left in cruel isolation, sometimes fed a watery milk-substitute to keep them alive for a few days until slaughter. In some of the worst places, they are simply left alone to die.
I don't know whose propaganda you are watching but this is the sort of thing that soothes people into thinking their milk comes cruelty-free. Mostly, it doesn't.
posted by Glinn at 9:49 AM on March 14, 2023 [2 favorites]
What? No. Cows mourn for their babies just like humans do. And while I'm glad to hear they are being treated better in some places, in other places it simply isn't true. It is not cost efficient to make sure cows do not suffer or feel pain, and the machines many get hooked up to cause pain and infections that go untreated. I've seen plenty of videos where babies are dragged or carried away while the cow cries and tries to move toward her baby (see Joey Carbstrong or Earthling Ed for videos if you must). The newborns are left in cruel isolation, sometimes fed a watery milk-substitute to keep them alive for a few days until slaughter. In some of the worst places, they are simply left alone to die.
I don't know whose propaganda you are watching but this is the sort of thing that soothes people into thinking their milk comes cruelty-free. Mostly, it doesn't.
posted by Glinn at 9:49 AM on March 14, 2023 [2 favorites]
I assume they are making a subset of milk proteins and it doesn’t really capture the flavor of milk, but is fine for processed foods. But in the long term, maybe they will be able to make complex artificial milks that are even better than any existing animal milk. There are a lot of factors that got us drinking cow milk to begin with, like being able to domesticate them. Maybe there is a mammal out there that has much more delicious milk, but can’t be domesticated or produces only a tiny amount of milk. What about combining attributes of several different milks? Perfectly replicating cow milk should only be the beginning of a voyage to truly transcendent milks of the future.
posted by snofoam at 9:51 AM on March 14, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by snofoam at 9:51 AM on March 14, 2023 [2 favorites]
Francis Bacon (contemporary of Shakespeare) describing his favourite mix of macadamia and almond milk.
I suspect you mean pistachios, not macadamias. The latter are indigenous to New South Wales and Queensland in Australia, so weren’t known to Francis Bacon. (Sadly for him. They’re delicious.)
posted by rory at 10:34 AM on March 14, 2023 [1 favorite]
I suspect you mean pistachios, not macadamias. The latter are indigenous to New South Wales and Queensland in Australia, so weren’t known to Francis Bacon. (Sadly for him. They’re delicious.)
posted by rory at 10:34 AM on March 14, 2023 [1 favorite]
.... I've watched dairy cows give birth and proceed to totally ignore calves, for what it's worth. Before posting it, I also double checked myself on that comment (including the assertions about calf husbandry and slaughter practices) via a number of different university extensions and research studies. I certainly agree there is substantial room for improvement in large scale dairy operations from a welfare perspective but disagree that cow/calf separation is inherently unethical.
Animals are not humans. We do not serve animals or ourselves by envisioning animals as furry versions of ourselves. Projected anthropomorphized distress is much, much more error prone than engaging with animals on their own level and weighing distress in terms of species-specific context, communication, and signaling.
I went looking again for data on dairy cattle and maternal care, and I discovered some interesting things about husbandry and cow-calf bonding that explains why dairy cows are generally believed to be less maternal than beef cattle. (For one thing, density of cattle at calving can really disrupt the hell out of cow-calf bonds, because if another cow licks a calf its mother is likely to reject it. Dairy cattle are more likely to calve in dense conditions, so this is more likely to happen.) That said, if you reintroduce a separated calf to its mother after as little as 12 hours, the mother will treat it like an intruder or a strange calf. That casts some significant doubt on the long term grief scenario.
Milk breed steer calves do usually go to slaughter, but not usually as veal calves because veal is increasingly unpopular in the US and Europe. (Even where veal is produced, veal calves are usually not slaughtered before five months or so.) The demand just isn't there. It's more profitable for most farmers to raise calves to 24 to 30 months before slaughter. While dairy steers won't have the same quality of marbling on meat as a beef steer or cow will, it's still a valuable product that can be used for cheaper cuts of beef or for ground beef. Of course, that's a very North American perspective on these calves; I'm not as familiar with Australian practice, but there's no fundamental reason that the same thing couldn't be done over there.
As for reducing stress on animals, farmers have a strong incentive to reduce stress as much as possible because stressed animals yield significantly less meat or milk than relaxed ones. In general the place I find significant abuse in agriculture --and it does exist--is aimed more at human workers being squeezed by penny-wise, pound foolish employers. I don't need to look at videos to find that; I own forty year old books emphasizing that principle to farmers and noted it on every dairy or farming extension and husbandry material I found.
I also don't believe that pregnancy is particularly aversive for cows, particularly because in a wild or feral situation cows are generally... pregnant for approximately the same amount of time anyway. It's not like wild conditions are necessarily better, or for that matter as if wild calves wouldn't face very high mortality from local predators.
posted by sciatrix at 12:11 PM on March 14, 2023 [8 favorites]
Animals are not humans. We do not serve animals or ourselves by envisioning animals as furry versions of ourselves. Projected anthropomorphized distress is much, much more error prone than engaging with animals on their own level and weighing distress in terms of species-specific context, communication, and signaling.
I went looking again for data on dairy cattle and maternal care, and I discovered some interesting things about husbandry and cow-calf bonding that explains why dairy cows are generally believed to be less maternal than beef cattle. (For one thing, density of cattle at calving can really disrupt the hell out of cow-calf bonds, because if another cow licks a calf its mother is likely to reject it. Dairy cattle are more likely to calve in dense conditions, so this is more likely to happen.) That said, if you reintroduce a separated calf to its mother after as little as 12 hours, the mother will treat it like an intruder or a strange calf. That casts some significant doubt on the long term grief scenario.
Milk breed steer calves do usually go to slaughter, but not usually as veal calves because veal is increasingly unpopular in the US and Europe. (Even where veal is produced, veal calves are usually not slaughtered before five months or so.) The demand just isn't there. It's more profitable for most farmers to raise calves to 24 to 30 months before slaughter. While dairy steers won't have the same quality of marbling on meat as a beef steer or cow will, it's still a valuable product that can be used for cheaper cuts of beef or for ground beef. Of course, that's a very North American perspective on these calves; I'm not as familiar with Australian practice, but there's no fundamental reason that the same thing couldn't be done over there.
As for reducing stress on animals, farmers have a strong incentive to reduce stress as much as possible because stressed animals yield significantly less meat or milk than relaxed ones. In general the place I find significant abuse in agriculture --and it does exist--is aimed more at human workers being squeezed by penny-wise, pound foolish employers. I don't need to look at videos to find that; I own forty year old books emphasizing that principle to farmers and noted it on every dairy or farming extension and husbandry material I found.
I also don't believe that pregnancy is particularly aversive for cows, particularly because in a wild or feral situation cows are generally... pregnant for approximately the same amount of time anyway. It's not like wild conditions are necessarily better, or for that matter as if wild calves wouldn't face very high mortality from local predators.
posted by sciatrix at 12:11 PM on March 14, 2023 [8 favorites]
I went looking again for data on dairy cattle and maternal care, and I discovered some interesting things about husbandry and cow-calf bonding that explains why dairy cows are generally believed to be less maternal than beef cattle. (For one thing, density of cattle at calving can really disrupt the hell out of cow-calf bonds, because if another cow licks a calf its mother is likely to reject it. Dairy cattle are more likely to calve in dense conditions, so this is more likely to happen.)
This is interesting. If I understand correctly, dairy cows are thought to be less maternal because they give birth in conditions that disrupt cow-calf bonds.
Am I wrong in thinking that doesn't sound like a welfare positive? I gather one common welfare index is, are animals able to express their characteristic behavior patterns? This is problematic for perhaps obvious reasons. But just taking it at face value, disrupting characteristic maternal bonding behavior would seem to be a serious welfare problem.
posted by grobstein at 12:54 PM on March 14, 2023 [2 favorites]
This is interesting. If I understand correctly, dairy cows are thought to be less maternal because they give birth in conditions that disrupt cow-calf bonds.
Am I wrong in thinking that doesn't sound like a welfare positive? I gather one common welfare index is, are animals able to express their characteristic behavior patterns? This is problematic for perhaps obvious reasons. But just taking it at face value, disrupting characteristic maternal bonding behavior would seem to be a serious welfare problem.
posted by grobstein at 12:54 PM on March 14, 2023 [2 favorites]
If they are actually able to tailor drinkable milk at some point the obvious standard to be shooting for is human. Yum.
posted by Mitheral at 1:24 PM on March 14, 2023
posted by Mitheral at 1:24 PM on March 14, 2023
Tyrell Baby Formula: "More Human Than Human"
posted by indexy at 1:35 PM on March 14, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by indexy at 1:35 PM on March 14, 2023 [2 favorites]
If they are actually able to tailor drinkable milk at some point the obvious standard to be shooting for is human. Yum.
Which brings us to the question, "If we can grow meat in a lab, is there any moral issue eating Long Pig?"
posted by mikelieman at 4:14 PM on March 14, 2023 [1 favorite]
Which brings us to the question, "If we can grow meat in a lab, is there any moral issue eating Long Pig?"
posted by mikelieman at 4:14 PM on March 14, 2023 [1 favorite]
Rory is absolutely correct, Francis Bacon was not secretly visiting Australia, I got my nuts mixed up:
2. Emulsion made by contusion of seeds.posted by BinaryApe at 1:27 AM on March 15, 2023 [1 favorite]
Pistachoes, so they be good and not musty, joined with almonds in almond milk, or made into a milk of themselves, like unto almond milk, are an excellent nourisher.
Bacon.
Am I wrong in thinking that doesn't sound like a welfare positive? I gather one common welfare index is, are animals able to express their characteristic behavior patterns?
Not wrong, no, although there's already room to engage in species typical behaviors: the main one for cattle aside from nursing is licking, and there's ample opportunity to lick other calves or cows in essentially any social setup. I think the thing I find interesting is the suggestion that a fairly well known behavioral variation in terms of maternal care is generated primarily by differences in husbandry, which have diverged even further to accommodate said behavioral differences.
It is however also worth noting that it is not clear that a single early separation is more stressful than remaining together for mothers or offspring, and it's definitely better than repeated separations. One study done on dairy goats (which are similarly often separated at birth, before a bond can form) found that chronic separation was the most stressful raising condition for kids, and that early separation and being remanded to a social rearing setup was the least stressful condition, with full time access to mothers being intermediate.
posted by sciatrix at 5:40 AM on March 15, 2023 [1 favorite]
Not wrong, no, although there's already room to engage in species typical behaviors: the main one for cattle aside from nursing is licking, and there's ample opportunity to lick other calves or cows in essentially any social setup. I think the thing I find interesting is the suggestion that a fairly well known behavioral variation in terms of maternal care is generated primarily by differences in husbandry, which have diverged even further to accommodate said behavioral differences.
It is however also worth noting that it is not clear that a single early separation is more stressful than remaining together for mothers or offspring, and it's definitely better than repeated separations. One study done on dairy goats (which are similarly often separated at birth, before a bond can form) found that chronic separation was the most stressful raising condition for kids, and that early separation and being remanded to a social rearing setup was the least stressful condition, with full time access to mothers being intermediate.
posted by sciatrix at 5:40 AM on March 15, 2023 [1 favorite]
Technology to reduce the environmental impact for milk has existed for years-- ultra-high pasteurization would mean milk wouldn't need to be refrigerated in transportation or at the store, and this is common in Europe. But the US doesn't do this, supposedly because of regulations and consumer preferences. Even non-dairy milk doesn't always get pasteurized this way, even the ones that are marketed to be better for the environment.
If American consumers haven't been willing to embrace technology that's existed for decades in order to save the climate, why would this be any different?
posted by Pitachu at 4:24 PM on March 18, 2023
If American consumers haven't been willing to embrace technology that's existed for decades in order to save the climate, why would this be any different?
posted by Pitachu at 4:24 PM on March 18, 2023
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I guess a few decades ago we thought that cholesterol in food was a main cause of blood-cholesterol problems, but we don't anymore. This argument makes me think that the article's author hasn't really kept up with current science.
And cattle, for beef or dairy, is said to be the No. 1 agricultural source of greenhouse gases worldwide
That doesn't mean they're the same level though - beef production is much worse for the environment that cow-milk production, at least according to everything I've read.
cultivated dairy could have just as much of an impact on the environment
Really, just as much? There's no evidence provided to support this argument, and at this point it just feels like the author is making things up. Why not just say that it could have a major impact on the environment and leave it at that?
posted by Umami Dearest at 2:31 AM on March 13, 2023 [11 favorites]