the “tide of history,” the courant de l’histoire
March 22, 2023 10:13 AM Subscribe
Russia’s war against Ukraine through the prism of the Algerian War and France’s decolonization. Metropolitan France lost [approximately] 75,000 soldiers in Vietnam and 25,000 soldiers in Algeria. The embrace of decolonization was an effort to turn something that was, in quite stark terms, a defeat for the French (and the Dutch, the British, the Belgians) into a good thing, something reassuring.
For those who aren't familiar with the term:
Metropolitan France (French: France métropolitaine or la Métropole), also known as European France is the area of France which is geographically in Europe. This collective name for the European regions of France is used in everyday life in France but has no administrative meaning. Indeed, the overseas regions have exactly the same administrative status as the metropolitan regions. Metropolitan France comprises mainland France and Corsica, as well as nearby islands in the Atlantic Ocean, the English Channel (French: la Manche), and the Mediterranean Sea.posted by zamboni at 11:14 AM on March 22, 2023
In contrast, overseas France is the collective name for all the French territories outside Europe. Metropolitan and overseas France together form the French Republic.
"Embracing “decolonization” allowed them to present the loss as a victory."
Seeing Russia's war against Ukraine through this prism assumes that Russia takes this same step. That's a hopeful look, and it would be a very good step for Russia to take, but it is also a change in direction that is easier for a democracy to take than for a power-hungry dictator who's feels like he's being backed into a corner that he doesn't want to be in.
posted by eye of newt at 12:19 PM on March 22, 2023 [1 favorite]
Seeing Russia's war against Ukraine through this prism assumes that Russia takes this same step. That's a hopeful look, and it would be a very good step for Russia to take, but it is also a change in direction that is easier for a democracy to take than for a power-hungry dictator who's feels like he's being backed into a corner that he doesn't want to be in.
posted by eye of newt at 12:19 PM on March 22, 2023 [1 favorite]
> ... easier for a democracy to take than for a power-hungry dictator who's feels like he's being backed into a corner that he doesn't want to be in.
Indeed. Or easier than for the rump of an Empire to give up on its revanchist program to restore its historical outermost boundaries. Even if Putin were to have an unfortunate fall from an upper-story window tonight, there would be no move in Moscow to end the war. For the war to end on terms favorable to Ukraine, Putin probably has to go. But Putin going is necessary, not sufficient.
posted by Aardvark Cheeselog at 1:23 PM on March 22, 2023 [2 favorites]
Indeed. Or easier than for the rump of an Empire to give up on its revanchist program to restore its historical outermost boundaries. Even if Putin were to have an unfortunate fall from an upper-story window tonight, there would be no move in Moscow to end the war. For the war to end on terms favorable to Ukraine, Putin probably has to go. But Putin going is necessary, not sufficient.
posted by Aardvark Cheeselog at 1:23 PM on March 22, 2023 [2 favorites]
overseas France is the collective name for all the French territories outside Europe. Metropolitan and overseas France together form the French Republic.
However, overseas departments and regions of France "have exactly the same status as mainland France's regions and departments" and are legally considered part of Metropolitan France. Consequently, France's longest border is with Brazil thanks to French Guiana. The French-Belgian border is next, then the border with Spain. France Still Has an Empire
posted by kirkaracha at 4:08 PM on March 22, 2023 [1 favorite]
However, overseas departments and regions of France "have exactly the same status as mainland France's regions and departments" and are legally considered part of Metropolitan France. Consequently, France's longest border is with Brazil thanks to French Guiana. The French-Belgian border is next, then the border with Spain. France Still Has an Empire
posted by kirkaracha at 4:08 PM on March 22, 2023 [1 favorite]
I don't think this is a good analogy.
The French conquest of Algeria "took place between 1830 and 1903." France annexed the occupied areas of Algeria as a military colony in 1834 and the Constitution of 1848 declared Algeria to be an integral part of France. The Algerian War (1954–1962) resulted in Algeria becoming independent.
Most of Ukraine was part of the Russian Empire after the partitions of Poland in 1772, 1793, and 1795 (with the extreme western part going to the Austro-Hungarian Empire). The Ukrainian War of Independence (1917–1921) resulted in Ukraine becoming the Ukrainian Soviet Socialist Republic. The Ukrainian People's Republic (1917–1920) and Ukrainian State (1918) controlled large parts of Ukraine during the war of independence.
So, France was trying to hold onto a colony it had controlled for over 100 years, and Russia is trying to conquer a country that has been independent for over 30 years. Those seem like different situations to me.
posted by kirkaracha at 4:38 PM on March 22, 2023 [9 favorites]
The French conquest of Algeria "took place between 1830 and 1903." France annexed the occupied areas of Algeria as a military colony in 1834 and the Constitution of 1848 declared Algeria to be an integral part of France. The Algerian War (1954–1962) resulted in Algeria becoming independent.
Most of Ukraine was part of the Russian Empire after the partitions of Poland in 1772, 1793, and 1795 (with the extreme western part going to the Austro-Hungarian Empire). The Ukrainian War of Independence (1917–1921) resulted in Ukraine becoming the Ukrainian Soviet Socialist Republic. The Ukrainian People's Republic (1917–1920) and Ukrainian State (1918) controlled large parts of Ukraine during the war of independence.
Between 1917 and 1920, several entities that aspired to be independent Ukrainian states came into existence. This period, however, was extremely chaotic, characterized by revolution, international and civil war, and lack of strong central authority. Many factions competed for power in the area that is today’s Ukraine, and not all groups desired a separate Ukrainian state.Ukraine declared independence in 1991, after the fall of the Soviet Union.
So, France was trying to hold onto a colony it had controlled for over 100 years, and Russia is trying to conquer a country that has been independent for over 30 years. Those seem like different situations to me.
posted by kirkaracha at 4:38 PM on March 22, 2023 [9 favorites]
Not mentioned in the article but relevant, is that by the end of the war there were three sides: the Algerian revolutionaries, France, and the OAS, a far-right mix of paramilitary and actual military that carried out bombings and assassination attempts in both Algeria and France.
They even tried to assassinate de Gaulle!
posted by grobstein at 5:41 PM on March 22, 2023 [1 favorite]
They even tried to assassinate de Gaulle!
posted by grobstein at 5:41 PM on March 22, 2023 [1 favorite]
They even tried to assassinate de Gaulle!
Which led to an awesome movie!
posted by kirkaracha at 7:15 AM on March 23, 2023 [1 favorite]
Which led to an awesome movie!
posted by kirkaracha at 7:15 AM on March 23, 2023 [1 favorite]
However, overseas departments and regions of France "have exactly the same status as mainland France's regions and departments" and are legally considered part of Metropolitan France
Yea, and last I looked Akamai global traffic manager routes users in French Guiana as if they were located in Europe. So instead of routing to São Paulo, on the same continent, you route to Milan or Ireland. I’m sure traveling halfway across the planet has no impact on latency.
Maybe the solution to this is we all just start routing all of France as if it were located next to Brazil.
posted by pwnguin at 8:16 AM on March 23, 2023 [1 favorite]
Yea, and last I looked Akamai global traffic manager routes users in French Guiana as if they were located in Europe. So instead of routing to São Paulo, on the same continent, you route to Milan or Ireland. I’m sure traveling halfway across the planet has no impact on latency.
Maybe the solution to this is we all just start routing all of France as if it were located next to Brazil.
posted by pwnguin at 8:16 AM on March 23, 2023 [1 favorite]
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When Russia finally gives up on Ukraine, gonna be a lot of heavily armed reactionaries floating around for years.
posted by ivan ivanych samovar at 11:03 AM on March 22, 2023 [7 favorites]