misleading language choice, inadequate context, and biased sourcing
March 24, 2023 10:43 AM Subscribe
Alec Karakatsanis' meticulous research on copaganda.
A "Shortage" of Punishment Bureaucrats: When the New York Times Is Like a PR Firm for Police Unions.
Public Relations Spending by Police Part 1 and Part 2: In 2014, Chicago cops had 6 full-time public relations employees. During the coverup of Laquan McDonald's murder, the city increased its police budget to 25 full-time positions. As of 2023, Chicago cops have 48 full-time PR positions.
How the Media Enables Violent Bureaucracy Part 1 and Part 2 and Part 3
Previously on MeFi, coverage of police saving ducks.
A "Shortage" of Punishment Bureaucrats: When the New York Times Is Like a PR Firm for Police Unions.
Public Relations Spending by Police Part 1 and Part 2: In 2014, Chicago cops had 6 full-time public relations employees. During the coverup of Laquan McDonald's murder, the city increased its police budget to 25 full-time positions. As of 2023, Chicago cops have 48 full-time PR positions.
How the Media Enables Violent Bureaucracy Part 1 and Part 2 and Part 3
Previously on MeFi, coverage of police saving ducks.
He's really good. Alec came and testified in 2022 when San Francisco board of Supervisors member Dean Preston had a hearing on copaganda (news article, video of hearing). Unfortunately shortly after, former SF Police PR flak Matt Dorsey was appointed by Mayor London Breed and then elected to the Board of Supervisors.
posted by larrybob at 12:11 PM on March 24, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by larrybob at 12:11 PM on March 24, 2023 [2 favorites]
Karakatsanis has a rather simplistic idea of policing if he thinks that cops are a "right wing fascist force," as he says in the interview. Regardless of their many failings (which we are all, I am sure, aware of), police do provide a public safety function, and no one has come up with a serious alternative of how to provide that service. This ACAB-style analysis leads him astray in many respects, not least of which is his recent jihad against Christopher Lewis and Adaner Usmani. He seems not even to be capable of understanding the underlying premises of their argument which lead them to their policy proposal.
posted by Noisy Pink Bubbles at 3:20 AM on March 25, 2023
posted by Noisy Pink Bubbles at 3:20 AM on March 25, 2023
If we hired the Proud Boys to do garbage collection, we would have a "right wing fascist garbage collection workforce." Dealing with trash would still be just as much of a necessary public function. It would just be being done by dangerous violent fascists.
The necessity of some kind of law enforcement function is real, sure, but that's separate from the ideals and methods applied to its provision. We need some kind of policing, but we absolutely do not need this kind of policing.
posted by Naberius at 6:45 AM on March 25, 2023 [11 favorites]
The necessity of some kind of law enforcement function is real, sure, but that's separate from the ideals and methods applied to its provision. We need some kind of policing, but we absolutely do not need this kind of policing.
posted by Naberius at 6:45 AM on March 25, 2023 [11 favorites]
I have only a passing familiarity with abolitionist theory and practice, really, haven’t read the fpp link yet, and had not previously heard of the person profiles, so have no opinion about him yet. But even I know that “no one has come up with a serious alternative of how to provide that service” is almost aggressively ignorant. Post an Ask or do some googling.
posted by eviemath at 10:46 AM on March 25, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by eviemath at 10:46 AM on March 25, 2023 [5 favorites]
Radley Balko is another good reporter on police issues.
posted by neuron at 11:33 AM on March 25, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by neuron at 11:33 AM on March 25, 2023 [1 favorite]
Thanks for sharing.
Local press in my city and region (even from non-profit newsrooms that are otherwise more liberal in their content) have discussed local police officer 'shortage' in a similar manner as the NYT: assuming that the optimal or desired number of police officers is whatever the police says.
Thanks for sharing that last link noisy pink bubbles; I was unaware that the number of police officers in the USA per capita is a lot lower compared to other wealthier countries and although I skimmed that article, I wonder if it separated civilian police and military police which may function differently in other countries.
posted by fizzix at 12:25 PM on March 25, 2023 [1 favorite]
In the USA there are roughly 2.4 police per 1,000 people.
In the People's Republic of China there are roughly 1.4 per 1,000 people.
The USA has more total people in prison than the PRC does, despite the PRC having 4.5x the population of the USA. We don't have a greater rate of incarceration per capita, we have more people in prison than a police state with a population 4.5x our own.
Smaller town soften spend well in excess of 50% of their budget on police, and even some bigger cities spend upwards of 40% of their budget on police.
The idea that the US suffers from "under policing" would be absurd and laughable except for the fact that it's being promoted nationwide.
Noisy Pink Bubbles No, I'd say he understands their point just fine and he, like I, find their thesis to be horrifying.
They correctly observe that prison sucks, that America is a white supremacist nation and Black people spend a disproportinate time in prison, and they note that the US has a large number of prisoners.
They then look at a prisoner per police number and conclude that in order to fix things we must ADD MORE POLICE in order to bring the US prisoner/police ratio into line with other first world nations.
Emptying the prisons, notably, is not even contemplated. Indeed, they propose to have more arrests, more incarcerations, and more people (mostly Black) languishing in prison.
They then fold Social Security and Medicare into their definition of "welfare", without telling us they're doing that, and pretend that America spends more on welfare than other nations which is completely incorrect in every way that matters.
They explicitly argue that spending more on welfare to address the root cause of crime, and to redress America's white supremacy problem, is a foolish idea and that spending that money on putting people in prison is a vastly superior way to deal with what they pretend is a huge wave of violent crime in the USA when, in fact, the violent crime rate has been decreasing steadily for decades.
They are using outright falsehood, ignoring facts, and using misleading figures to reach a conclusion they clearly wanted from the beginning: the idea that America should spend more on police and hire more police.
So no.
Fuck. That. Noise.
We don't need more Fascist thugs stomping Black people to death. Anyone who thinks we do should really examine their privilege and racial bias a bit more closely.
posted by sotonohito at 3:06 PM on March 25, 2023 [9 favorites]
In the People's Republic of China there are roughly 1.4 per 1,000 people.
The USA has more total people in prison than the PRC does, despite the PRC having 4.5x the population of the USA. We don't have a greater rate of incarceration per capita, we have more people in prison than a police state with a population 4.5x our own.
Smaller town soften spend well in excess of 50% of their budget on police, and even some bigger cities spend upwards of 40% of their budget on police.
The idea that the US suffers from "under policing" would be absurd and laughable except for the fact that it's being promoted nationwide.
Noisy Pink Bubbles No, I'd say he understands their point just fine and he, like I, find their thesis to be horrifying.
They correctly observe that prison sucks, that America is a white supremacist nation and Black people spend a disproportinate time in prison, and they note that the US has a large number of prisoners.
They then look at a prisoner per police number and conclude that in order to fix things we must ADD MORE POLICE in order to bring the US prisoner/police ratio into line with other first world nations.
Emptying the prisons, notably, is not even contemplated. Indeed, they propose to have more arrests, more incarcerations, and more people (mostly Black) languishing in prison.
They then fold Social Security and Medicare into their definition of "welfare", without telling us they're doing that, and pretend that America spends more on welfare than other nations which is completely incorrect in every way that matters.
They explicitly argue that spending more on welfare to address the root cause of crime, and to redress America's white supremacy problem, is a foolish idea and that spending that money on putting people in prison is a vastly superior way to deal with what they pretend is a huge wave of violent crime in the USA when, in fact, the violent crime rate has been decreasing steadily for decades.
They are using outright falsehood, ignoring facts, and using misleading figures to reach a conclusion they clearly wanted from the beginning: the idea that America should spend more on police and hire more police.
So no.
Fuck. That. Noise.
We don't need more Fascist thugs stomping Black people to death. Anyone who thinks we do should really examine their privilege and racial bias a bit more closely.
posted by sotonohito at 3:06 PM on March 25, 2023 [9 favorites]
“no one has come up with a serious alternative of how to provide that service” is almost aggressively ignorant
Ok, I googled, and nobody has abolished the police. Because it's completely unworkable. Crime exists and is a problem -- as too many are prone to to irresponsibly deny -- and there needs to be some provision to deal with it. Everyone agrees that the police would benefit from a variety of reforms, but that's a different matter.
Emptying the prisons, notably, is not even contemplated
Actually, that's the whole point of the piece: how to draw down the American prison population, essentially ending the US's internationally outsize proportion of prisoners, i.e. mass incarceration.
and pretend that America spends more on welfare than other nations
That is the opposite of what the authors mean by "the developed world’s [...] most anemic welfare state."
they pretend is a huge wave of violent crime in the USA
The US, does, in fact, have much higher rates of crime than comparable countries, as they say in the piece, regardless of whether crime has been rising or falling in the US recently.
posted by Noisy Pink Bubbles at 2:35 AM on March 26, 2023 [1 favorite]
Ok, I googled, and nobody has abolished the police. Because it's completely unworkable. Crime exists and is a problem -- as too many are prone to to irresponsibly deny -- and there needs to be some provision to deal with it. Everyone agrees that the police would benefit from a variety of reforms, but that's a different matter.
Emptying the prisons, notably, is not even contemplated
Actually, that's the whole point of the piece: how to draw down the American prison population, essentially ending the US's internationally outsize proportion of prisoners, i.e. mass incarceration.
and pretend that America spends more on welfare than other nations
That is the opposite of what the authors mean by "the developed world’s [...] most anemic welfare state."
they pretend is a huge wave of violent crime in the USA
The US, does, in fact, have much higher rates of crime than comparable countries, as they say in the piece, regardless of whether crime has been rising or falling in the US recently.
posted by Noisy Pink Bubbles at 2:35 AM on March 26, 2023 [1 favorite]
Police, in the present US form, have been present and are currently present in every single human society throughout history, as a universal constant, eh? That’s some internet search skills you’ve got there.
/s
posted by eviemath at 5:11 AM on March 26, 2023
/s
posted by eviemath at 5:11 AM on March 26, 2023
Noisy Pink Bubbles Yes, they do claim that if we follow their advice, the same advice as every far right winger "git tuff" type, and hire still more police to storm through minority communities, murdering, raping, beating, and arresting Black people in even higher numbers than they do now that this will so terrorize Black communities that crime will go down and eventually prison populations will decline.
Note that at no point do they ever say that their increased police funding proposals should be linked to reducing mandatory minimums or any other measure to reduce prison terms.
They just want us to accept, uncritically, their proposal to spend EVEN MORE MONEY on policing than we currently do, to throw yet more Black people into prison for decades, and that by magic this will eventually result in police being less brutal and fewer people being put into prison forever.
No.
I do not accept their claims. I see absolutely no reason whatsoever to imagine that hiring more stormtroopers to terrorize Black people, building MORE for profit prisons to house their estimated 7 million more prisoners for decades, will suddenly make prison population decline and pigs stop being pigs.
They're flailing around for quick, easy, painless, hypothetically "non-partisan" solutions to complex and difficult problems that are, at heart, rooted in white supremacy.
They don't want to address the white supremacy at the root of the issue. They don't want to admit the problem is complex, deeply rooted, and will require expensive fixes that are extremely distasteful to a large majority of white people.
So they repackaged the standard carceral state answer for everything (more pigs! more prison! harsher sentences! oppress Black people harder!) as a supposedly pragmatic, non-partisan, non-ideological, one size fits all solution that will, as long as we clap hard enough and believe hard enough, fix everything without any of that messy, difficult, hated by white supremacists, addressing root causes bullshit.
posted by sotonohito at 9:37 AM on March 26, 2023 [1 favorite]
Note that at no point do they ever say that their increased police funding proposals should be linked to reducing mandatory minimums or any other measure to reduce prison terms.
They just want us to accept, uncritically, their proposal to spend EVEN MORE MONEY on policing than we currently do, to throw yet more Black people into prison for decades, and that by magic this will eventually result in police being less brutal and fewer people being put into prison forever.
No.
I do not accept their claims. I see absolutely no reason whatsoever to imagine that hiring more stormtroopers to terrorize Black people, building MORE for profit prisons to house their estimated 7 million more prisoners for decades, will suddenly make prison population decline and pigs stop being pigs.
They're flailing around for quick, easy, painless, hypothetically "non-partisan" solutions to complex and difficult problems that are, at heart, rooted in white supremacy.
They don't want to address the white supremacy at the root of the issue. They don't want to admit the problem is complex, deeply rooted, and will require expensive fixes that are extremely distasteful to a large majority of white people.
So they repackaged the standard carceral state answer for everything (more pigs! more prison! harsher sentences! oppress Black people harder!) as a supposedly pragmatic, non-partisan, non-ideological, one size fits all solution that will, as long as we clap hard enough and believe hard enough, fix everything without any of that messy, difficult, hated by white supremacists, addressing root causes bullshit.
posted by sotonohito at 9:37 AM on March 26, 2023 [1 favorite]
sotonohito, If you're actually concerned for the welfare of black people -- there's obviously others with a stake in the criminal justice system but you seem especially concerned with them -- you might consider that they are not terribly well served by being in prison. If you think that police are raping and pillaging "stormtroopers", I wonder what your evaluation of the average prison guard is. If the Usmani/Lewis proposal were adopted, it would go quite a way to ending the kinds of abuses and injustices for which US mass incarceration is notorious.
By the way, if you think the origin of this system is in white supremacy, there's a much more straightforward explanation. I'd imagine the ultimate fix to all of these ills -- expanding the welfare state -- would not be opposed by a majority of any race... but would, of course be vehemently opposed by capitalists.
posted by Noisy Pink Bubbles at 12:19 PM on March 26, 2023
By the way, if you think the origin of this system is in white supremacy, there's a much more straightforward explanation. I'd imagine the ultimate fix to all of these ills -- expanding the welfare state -- would not be opposed by a majority of any race... but would, of course be vehemently opposed by capitalists.
posted by Noisy Pink Bubbles at 12:19 PM on March 26, 2023
… uh, sotonhito is quite clearly not arguing for more incarceration.
From the first page of my google results on the origins of US policing systems:
NAACP: The Origins of Modern Day Policing
The New Yorker: The Invention of the Police
The University of Alabama, Birmingham, Center for Human Rights Blog: The History of Policing in the US and Its Impact on Americans Today
National Law Enforcement Officers Memorial Fund: Slave Patrols: An Early Form of American Policing
The Conversation: The racist roots of American policing: From slave patrols to traffic stops
The straight line from slave patrols to modern US policing is pretty widely accepted historical record. Sure, there were also some other influences on our modern-day structures. And yes, the development of capitalism is inextricably intertwined with (though pre-dated by) colonialism, so you can also very easily critique modern US policing from an anti-capitalist perspective; and yes, abolitionist critiques do in fact advocate (and have the empirical research to support) improving social supports and the material conditions of people everywhere as a far more cost effective as well as ethical approach to reducing crime. And also we wouldn’t have the present day US policing and carceral systems without that history of slavery.
posted by eviemath at 2:16 PM on March 26, 2023 [4 favorites]
From the first page of my google results on the origins of US policing systems:
NAACP: The Origins of Modern Day Policing
The New Yorker: The Invention of the Police
The University of Alabama, Birmingham, Center for Human Rights Blog: The History of Policing in the US and Its Impact on Americans Today
National Law Enforcement Officers Memorial Fund: Slave Patrols: An Early Form of American Policing
The Conversation: The racist roots of American policing: From slave patrols to traffic stops
The straight line from slave patrols to modern US policing is pretty widely accepted historical record. Sure, there were also some other influences on our modern-day structures. And yes, the development of capitalism is inextricably intertwined with (though pre-dated by) colonialism, so you can also very easily critique modern US policing from an anti-capitalist perspective; and yes, abolitionist critiques do in fact advocate (and have the empirical research to support) improving social supports and the material conditions of people everywhere as a far more cost effective as well as ethical approach to reducing crime. And also we wouldn’t have the present day US policing and carceral systems without that history of slavery.
posted by eviemath at 2:16 PM on March 26, 2023 [4 favorites]
police do provide a public safety function, and no one has come up with a serious alternative of how to provide that service.
Yeah, but the public safety function they are providing used to be the military's.
Famously, Deputy Fife was issued one bullet and was required to keep it in his shirt pocket unless really needed.
That's a start in demilitarizing the police-military-industrial complex and their PR and lobbying arms.
posted by mikelieman at 2:39 PM on March 26, 2023 [2 favorites]
Yeah, but the public safety function they are providing used to be the military's.
Famously, Deputy Fife was issued one bullet and was required to keep it in his shirt pocket unless really needed.
That's a start in demilitarizing the police-military-industrial complex and their PR and lobbying arms.
posted by mikelieman at 2:39 PM on March 26, 2023 [2 favorites]
National Law Enforcement Officers Memorial Fund: Slave Patrols: An Early Form of American Policing
Here's a fun drinking game to play when watching bodycam videos of police pulling people over.
Every time the cop asks a question that a slave patrol would ask, you take a drink.
e.g.: "Where are you coming from tonight?" Drink.
"Where are you going to?" Drink.
"Why are you out so late?" Drink.
posted by mikelieman at 2:44 PM on March 26, 2023 [4 favorites]
Here's a fun drinking game to play when watching bodycam videos of police pulling people over.
Every time the cop asks a question that a slave patrol would ask, you take a drink.
e.g.: "Where are you coming from tonight?" Drink.
"Where are you going to?" Drink.
"Why are you out so late?" Drink.
posted by mikelieman at 2:44 PM on March 26, 2023 [4 favorites]
Noisy Pink Bubbles I think perhaps you didn't read the linked paper? The authors argue that their wonderful plan for reducing the number of prison begins by... incarcerating an additional estimated 7 million people. Mostly Black.
They employ one of the most bizarre bits of backwards logic I've ever witnessed.
They say that other nations have a prisoner/police ratio that's lower than in America, that is, other 1st world nations have fewer prisoners per police officer.
They argue that this ratio is critical and, in fact, the root of the problem. Too many prisoners per cop.
Even if we were to agree with them that the magic prisoner/police ratio is super critical (and I think it's not) then the sensible, reasonable, rational, solution would be to empty the prisons and reduce the number of prisoners so America had a ratio that they like.
They propose the opposite, in fact more than just the opposite. Having invented a "problem" they conclude that the solution is, wait for it, MORE POLICE! And this is totally bonkers because they acknowledge that America has a horrible system, that police are abusive especially towards minorities, that people are being tossed into prison for eternity and they conclude that that we should have more cops to put 7 million more people in prison.
W. T. F.?
The paper is truly bizarre. I get whiplash reading it. They go from objective facts to reasonable statements to utterly batshit conclusion without any intervening steps. I'm all "yes, yes, sounds about right, WHAT?"
We have too many prisoners so we should put more people in prison. ? What?
It's as if they say we have a problem with a burning building and the problem is that the fire/kerosine ratio is too low so we should add more kerosine. Its so false that its not even wrong.
posted by sotonohito at 4:32 PM on March 26, 2023 [2 favorites]
They employ one of the most bizarre bits of backwards logic I've ever witnessed.
They say that other nations have a prisoner/police ratio that's lower than in America, that is, other 1st world nations have fewer prisoners per police officer.
They argue that this ratio is critical and, in fact, the root of the problem. Too many prisoners per cop.
Even if we were to agree with them that the magic prisoner/police ratio is super critical (and I think it's not) then the sensible, reasonable, rational, solution would be to empty the prisons and reduce the number of prisoners so America had a ratio that they like.
They propose the opposite, in fact more than just the opposite. Having invented a "problem" they conclude that the solution is, wait for it, MORE POLICE! And this is totally bonkers because they acknowledge that America has a horrible system, that police are abusive especially towards minorities, that people are being tossed into prison for eternity and they conclude that that we should have more cops to put 7 million more people in prison.
W. T. F.?
The paper is truly bizarre. I get whiplash reading it. They go from objective facts to reasonable statements to utterly batshit conclusion without any intervening steps. I'm all "yes, yes, sounds about right, WHAT?"
We have too many prisoners so we should put more people in prison. ? What?
It's as if they say we have a problem with a burning building and the problem is that the fire/kerosine ratio is too low so we should add more kerosine. Its so false that its not even wrong.
posted by sotonohito at 4:32 PM on March 26, 2023 [2 favorites]
The straight line from slave patrols to modern US policing is pretty widely accepted historical record.
It's hardly a straight line. For most of the US (that is, the non-South), police forces did not grow out of slave patrols. And why would we expect them to, as most of the US had a political economy not based on any kind of plantation slavery? The sources you linked basically attest to this, by only trying to make that link for some police forces in the US South. It can't seriously be maintained that US policing *in general* is basically a lineal descendent of slave catchers. The long shadow of slavery isn't present in, e.g., every arrest the Chicago, NYC or LA police departments make (however objectionable we may think they may be for other reasons).
I mean, even if the slave patrol history were true, for the sake of argument, I'm not sure if there's any policy recommendations that obviously flow from that story. The configuration and situation of modern police departments are pretty distinct from whatever was happening hundreds of years ago.
posted by Noisy Pink Bubbles at 5:30 PM on March 26, 2023
It's hardly a straight line. For most of the US (that is, the non-South), police forces did not grow out of slave patrols. And why would we expect them to, as most of the US had a political economy not based on any kind of plantation slavery? The sources you linked basically attest to this, by only trying to make that link for some police forces in the US South. It can't seriously be maintained that US policing *in general* is basically a lineal descendent of slave catchers. The long shadow of slavery isn't present in, e.g., every arrest the Chicago, NYC or LA police departments make (however objectionable we may think they may be for other reasons).
I mean, even if the slave patrol history were true, for the sake of argument, I'm not sure if there's any policy recommendations that obviously flow from that story. The configuration and situation of modern police departments are pretty distinct from whatever was happening hundreds of years ago.
posted by Noisy Pink Bubbles at 5:30 PM on March 26, 2023
Oy.
“Hundreds of year ago”
The idea that only the South had slavery or slave patrols.
The complete lack of mention of Reconstruction or the organized violent opposition by white community leaders (yes, of largely property-owning classes) across the country - North and South, East and West, from attacks on Black communities to KKK chapters in every state. The lack of awareness about how “anti-vagrancy” laws replaced slavery and supplied the captive labor for prison work farms in all states across the country.
The lack of cultural awareness of the continuity of racial stereotypes that were directly wielded by Reaganites to begin the drastic increase in rates of incarceration, largely of young Black men, beginning in the 1980s.
It’s like getting a preview of a generation taught using the current US History curricula in Texas and Florida.
posted by eviemath at 6:37 PM on March 26, 2023
“Hundreds of year ago”
The idea that only the South had slavery or slave patrols.
The complete lack of mention of Reconstruction or the organized violent opposition by white community leaders (yes, of largely property-owning classes) across the country - North and South, East and West, from attacks on Black communities to KKK chapters in every state. The lack of awareness about how “anti-vagrancy” laws replaced slavery and supplied the captive labor for prison work farms in all states across the country.
The lack of cultural awareness of the continuity of racial stereotypes that were directly wielded by Reaganites to begin the drastic increase in rates of incarceration, largely of young Black men, beginning in the 1980s.
It’s like getting a preview of a generation taught using the current US History curricula in Texas and Florida.
posted by eviemath at 6:37 PM on March 26, 2023
As if only Southern states had Jim Crow laws. Or as if Jim Crow laws weren’t part of the widespread white property-owning backlash against Reconstruction and the ending of slavery.
posted by eviemath at 6:40 PM on March 26, 2023
posted by eviemath at 6:40 PM on March 26, 2023
Cops Don't Stop Mass Shooters, Community Investments Do
Creative Interventions Toolkit
posted by eviemath at 7:08 AM on March 27, 2023 [1 favorite]
Creative Interventions Toolkit
posted by eviemath at 7:08 AM on March 27, 2023 [1 favorite]
Do you see criminal behavior as something wholly innate in people, or do you see it as at least in part a product of environmental conditions (upbringing, financial difficulties, community opportunities, etc)?
Is it better to prevent crime, or punish criminals? Which intervention prevents harm better? Which is less costly, in money, time, effort, or harm to people? Which leads to more abuse?
Do you see the purpose of incarceration as retributive (punish the evil doer), deterrence based (discourage people from choosing crime by showing them what happens), rehabilitative (help people behave better in the future), or protective (keep people safe from those who are harmful)?
What people that cops interact with would be better served and addressed by subject matter experts or other systems then armed people with the power to stop, interrogate, and arrest people? Drug addicts? Homeless folks? thieves? The mentally ill? Traffic violators?
Starting from more or less cops is a backwards way to get to prison abolition movements because they question all the ways we get to a position where cops become the solution. It's like asking if the French needed more aristocrats or fewer to have a good pre-revolution society? What if the King was more or less powerful? It's a narrow viewpoint predicated on a status quo that is problematic.
posted by Chrysopoeia at 1:32 PM on March 27, 2023 [3 favorites]
Is it better to prevent crime, or punish criminals? Which intervention prevents harm better? Which is less costly, in money, time, effort, or harm to people? Which leads to more abuse?
Do you see the purpose of incarceration as retributive (punish the evil doer), deterrence based (discourage people from choosing crime by showing them what happens), rehabilitative (help people behave better in the future), or protective (keep people safe from those who are harmful)?
What people that cops interact with would be better served and addressed by subject matter experts or other systems then armed people with the power to stop, interrogate, and arrest people? Drug addicts? Homeless folks? thieves? The mentally ill? Traffic violators?
Starting from more or less cops is a backwards way to get to prison abolition movements because they question all the ways we get to a position where cops become the solution. It's like asking if the French needed more aristocrats or fewer to have a good pre-revolution society? What if the King was more or less powerful? It's a narrow viewpoint predicated on a status quo that is problematic.
posted by Chrysopoeia at 1:32 PM on March 27, 2023 [3 favorites]
The complete lack of mention of Reconstruction...
I hope you would acknowledge that Reconstruction and all those other things you mentioned happened after the abolition of slavery in the US. The point being quite a lot of time has elapsed between now and the era of chattel slavery. The idea that industrialization, urbanization, civil rights, mass internal and international migration, female entry into the workforce, and a million other things that have happened between now and then have not changed the way police departments operate is highly fanciful. The 1619 project-style story of unbroken and unchanging black oppression in the US is simply not a persuasive historical narrative.
posted by Noisy Pink Bubbles at 2:47 AM on March 28, 2023
I hope you would acknowledge that Reconstruction and all those other things you mentioned happened after the abolition of slavery in the US. The point being quite a lot of time has elapsed between now and the era of chattel slavery. The idea that industrialization, urbanization, civil rights, mass internal and international migration, female entry into the workforce, and a million other things that have happened between now and then have not changed the way police departments operate is highly fanciful. The 1619 project-style story of unbroken and unchanging black oppression in the US is simply not a persuasive historical narrative.
posted by Noisy Pink Bubbles at 2:47 AM on March 28, 2023
Well this is certainly the most blatant display of racism in bad faith argumentation - as well as the most asinine example of such - that I’ve seen on Metafilter in a while. No one is arguing that US police forces still exactly consist of white landowners and lackeys in their immediate employ riding around the countryside on horses with muzzle-loading rifles and pistols and hunting dogs chasing people they consider their property, nor the parallel structures of bounty hunting half detective/half con-men groups that sprung up in “free” states. Is it that you simply don’t understand any of the actual arguments about how each new iteration of policing has adapted from previous iterations in a manner that keeps the same essential (racist, colonialist - which, yes, includes classist) character? That is, is it that your imagination is just unable to encompass the idea of an unbroken, adapting (i.e. changing) thread of Black oppression in the US? Or is there more intentionality behind your comments?
Side note: Black, being a proper noun, is capitalized. (White, being an adjective, is not capitalized unless it occurs at the beginning of a sentence such as this.)
posted by eviemath at 4:10 AM on March 28, 2023 [2 favorites]
Side note: Black, being a proper noun, is capitalized. (White, being an adjective, is not capitalized unless it occurs at the beginning of a sentence such as this.)
posted by eviemath at 4:10 AM on March 28, 2023 [2 favorites]
[Sorry for the thread bump, I had this in a buried tab and thought it was still relevant]
and no one has come up with a serious alternative of how to provide that service.
Sure they have, "reduce armed response" is one, and psychological intervenors and unarmed traffic ticketing are two methods of implementing it.
However, police unions and politicians conspire to muddy the waters by conflating reform and citizen oversight as abolition of all law enforcement. Not only does law enforcement not want to change their means of interacting with the public, they don't think the populace has any business sticking their nose into how they do their job. Thus, citizen review boards almost never have subpoena authority, mayors can't fire cops without the permission of the relevant union, and decertification is effectively only possible with a felony conviction. All providing the department themselves finds that the officer didn't act "within policy."
posted by rhizome at 1:47 PM on April 7, 2023 [1 favorite]
and no one has come up with a serious alternative of how to provide that service.
Sure they have, "reduce armed response" is one, and psychological intervenors and unarmed traffic ticketing are two methods of implementing it.
However, police unions and politicians conspire to muddy the waters by conflating reform and citizen oversight as abolition of all law enforcement. Not only does law enforcement not want to change their means of interacting with the public, they don't think the populace has any business sticking their nose into how they do their job. Thus, citizen review boards almost never have subpoena authority, mayors can't fire cops without the permission of the relevant union, and decertification is effectively only possible with a felony conviction. All providing the department themselves finds that the officer didn't act "within policy."
posted by rhizome at 1:47 PM on April 7, 2023 [1 favorite]
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He is one of the best follows on twitter, and his extensive threads are amazing. A really great intro to him and the type of work he does is this Daily Show interview, which I would highly recommend to anyone new to him. He really breaks down WHAT Copaganda really is and how it is disseminated in the media and in politics.
posted by windbox at 10:59 AM on March 24, 2023 [10 favorites]