When The 80s Got All Proggy
March 28, 2023 8:45 PM Subscribe
Weighty In The Eighties: When Prog Went Pop is an essay by Jim Allen for uDiscover (posted here via yahoo!). It's about that weird period of time when heavy prog artists from a previous decade suddenly started to gain pop music chart recognition. It's a great article, with all the mentioned songs/videos linked below the fold.
1980:
Genesis - Misunderstanding
Peter Gabriel - Games Without Frontiers
Rush - The Spirit Of Radio
1981:
Rush - Tom Sawyer
Rush - Limelight
The Moody Blues - The Voice
The Moody Blues - Gemini Dream
Genesis - No Reply At All (winner of best bass line)
Asia - Heat Of The Moment
Peter Gabriel - Shock The Monkey
Rush - New World Man
Genesis - That's All
Genesis - Mama
Genesis - Home By The Sea/Second Home By The Sea
Yes - Owner Of A Lonely Heart
1980:
Genesis - Misunderstanding
Peter Gabriel - Games Without Frontiers
Rush - The Spirit Of Radio
1981:
Rush - Tom Sawyer
Rush - Limelight
The Moody Blues - The Voice
The Moody Blues - Gemini Dream
Genesis - No Reply At All (winner of best bass line)
My additions:1982:
Styx - Rockin' The Paradise (terrible audio)
Styx - Too Much Time On My Hands
Styx - The Best Of Times
Asia - Heat Of The Moment
Peter Gabriel - Shock The Monkey
Rush - New World Man
Styx - Mr. Roboto1983:
Genesis - That's All
Genesis - Mama
Genesis - Home By The Sea/Second Home By The Sea
Yes - Owner Of A Lonely Heart
1984:I'm not even getting into like the Phil Collins solo career, or Mike + The Mechanics (they share a common background), or things like The Grateful Dead's "Touch Of Grey" hit, or weird relics like this strange mid-80s The Doobie Brothers record. There's a lot of other examples. I'm sure I, and the linked article that I'm basing this post off of, have left off several that others love.
King Crimson - Sleepless (low charting single)
1985:
Starship (nee Jefferson Starship, nee Jefferson Airplane, were they prog, no matter) - We Built This City
Starship - Sara
Starship - Tomorrow Doesn't Matter Tonight
Rush - The Big Money
Rush - Mystic Rhythms
The Alan Parsons Project - Stereotomy (never charted but was their attempt at this wave)
1986 (the peak of the madness, mostly thanks to one Tony Banks and his circle of friends):
The Moody Blues - Your Wildest Dreams
The Moody Blues - The Other Side Of Life
Peter Gabriel - Sledgehammer (honestly if all this prog-80s-revival ever gave us was this {HD remastered) video, I'd be content)
Peter Gabriel - In Your Eyes
Peter Gabriel - Don't Give Up
Peter Gabriel - Big Time
Peter Gabriel - Red Rain
Emerson, Lake & Powell - Touch And Go
Emerson, Lake & Powell - Lay Down Your Guns
Genesis - Invisible Touch
Genesis - Throwing It All Away
Genesis - In Too Deep
Genesis - Land Of Confusion
Genesis - Tonight, Tonight, Tonight
GTR - When The Heart Rules The Mind
Boston (were they prog? they were back) - Amanda
1987:
Starship - Nothing's Gonna Stop Us Now
Rush - Time Stand Still
Yes - Love Will Find A Way
Yes - Rhythm Of Love
Pink Floyd - Learning To Fly
Pink Floyd - On The Turning Away
1988: (am I forgetting something?)
1989 (truly winding down):
Jethro Tull - Another Christmas Song (didn't chart, but I like this one)
Jefferson Airplane - Planes (throwback of a throwback to a throwback, but if this is the most "feels like the original" of any of these tracks)
Rush - Show Don't Tell
I'd like to nominate Billy Joel's "Storm Front" (1989) as an honorary inclusion since it was based on "Sledgehammer" with the same slow walk base line that plods along just enough not to fall apart (by Joel's own admission).
posted by Servo5678 at 8:58 PM on March 28, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by Servo5678 at 8:58 PM on March 28, 2023 [2 favorites]
Re: Rush's move toward a more accessible sound: They've talked about how they admired and were influenced by The Police, who were sort of on a journey in the opposite direction—from their early just-post-punk sound to something more elaborate and ambitious. (A jazz odyssey, if you will.)
posted by The Tensor at 9:41 PM on March 28, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by The Tensor at 9:41 PM on March 28, 2023 [5 favorites]
America is indeed another country
posted by fallingbadgers at 9:53 PM on March 28, 2023
posted by fallingbadgers at 9:53 PM on March 28, 2023
marillion, he knows you know, 1983
I'm just dumping these as i think of em. don't feel like saving up a list.
posted by j_curiouser at 10:12 PM on March 28, 2023 [4 favorites]
I'm just dumping these as i think of em. don't feel like saving up a list.
posted by j_curiouser at 10:12 PM on March 28, 2023 [4 favorites]
Rush, Genesis and Yes got more poppy in the early 1980s (Moving Pictures, Signals; Duke, Abacab; Drama, 90125) but seemed to be adapting (shorter, catchy songs) while still innovating (interesting music). It was an optimistic time.
But something happened between 1983 and 1985.
You can see it in the links hippybear provided (Tom Sawyer vs. The Big Money; Home By the Sea vs. Invisible Touch).
Or compare prog-adjacent AOR artists like Heart: Love Alive (1977) vs. What About Love (1986). Or Boston's Hitch a Ride (1976) vs. Amanda (1986). (Boston might not have been prog, but the keyboard solo in Hitch a Ride sounds Emersonian.)
It seems these artists found a lot of success by no longer adapting as in c. 1982, but unmooring themselves from complicated music. The songs are well-written and well-performed, but simpler. It's good that they found a way, and tbh I'd probably do the same thing in their shoes. That's where radio and listener taste was going.
Even Steve Winwood had a lot of success by adopting post-1985 styles in Higher Love (gospel chorus, DX7ish keyboard, synth brass hits, gated snare).
By the end of the 1980s, progheads like me could switch to alternative and college radio, where artists like Wire, PiL, Sonic Youth, etc. were making new stuff. And now there are plenty of choices online and room for everyone.
posted by kurumi at 11:24 PM on March 28, 2023 [13 favorites]
But something happened between 1983 and 1985.
You can see it in the links hippybear provided (Tom Sawyer vs. The Big Money; Home By the Sea vs. Invisible Touch).
Or compare prog-adjacent AOR artists like Heart: Love Alive (1977) vs. What About Love (1986). Or Boston's Hitch a Ride (1976) vs. Amanda (1986). (Boston might not have been prog, but the keyboard solo in Hitch a Ride sounds Emersonian.)
It seems these artists found a lot of success by no longer adapting as in c. 1982, but unmooring themselves from complicated music. The songs are well-written and well-performed, but simpler. It's good that they found a way, and tbh I'd probably do the same thing in their shoes. That's where radio and listener taste was going.
Even Steve Winwood had a lot of success by adopting post-1985 styles in Higher Love (gospel chorus, DX7ish keyboard, synth brass hits, gated snare).
By the end of the 1980s, progheads like me could switch to alternative and college radio, where artists like Wire, PiL, Sonic Youth, etc. were making new stuff. And now there are plenty of choices online and room for everyone.
posted by kurumi at 11:24 PM on March 28, 2023 [13 favorites]
Whoa Starship's video for Nothing's Going to Stop Us is some terrifying shit.
posted by alex_skazat at 11:39 PM on March 28, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by alex_skazat at 11:39 PM on March 28, 2023 [5 favorites]
Why does everyone in the We Built This City music video look like lifeless mannequinw?
posted by alex_skazat at 11:44 PM on March 28, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by alex_skazat at 11:44 PM on March 28, 2023 [2 favorites]
Powell?
posted by flabdablet at 12:31 AM on March 29, 2023
posted by flabdablet at 12:31 AM on March 29, 2023
Powell. How about that.
posted by flabdablet at 12:34 AM on March 29, 2023 [12 favorites]
Keith Emerson and Greg Lake had planned to re-form the original ELP in 1984, but drummer Carl Palmer was unavailable because of contractual obligations to Asia. After auditioning a series of drummers unwilling to commit to the band, they approached Cozy Powell, a longtime friend of Emerson's, to replace him. The band have always insisted that it was a coincidence that his surname also happened to start with a P, thus allowing the band to retain its original initials, although they also joked about looking for a "Gene Prupa" and having approached "Phil Pollins" and "Ringo Parr" before Powell agreed to join.Heh.
posted by flabdablet at 12:34 AM on March 29, 2023 [12 favorites]
Why does everyone in the We Built This City music video look like lifeless mannequins?
Consistency with the audio would be my guess. Sad, sad, shadow of that outfit's former glory.
posted by flabdablet at 12:43 AM on March 29, 2023 [4 favorites]
Consistency with the audio would be my guess. Sad, sad, shadow of that outfit's former glory.
posted by flabdablet at 12:43 AM on March 29, 2023 [4 favorites]
“when the 80’s got all proggy”? Isn’t it more a case of a lot of artists from the 70’s just carrying on with what they were already doing?
posted by awfurby at 1:19 AM on March 29, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by awfurby at 1:19 AM on March 29, 2023 [2 favorites]
no, there was a real shift in style across many groups - not genre, style. my thoughts: trying to creatively adopt some of the emerging sounds (dx7, gazed snare as noted above, thin chorus-y guitar) and studio production techniques. later in the decade, mtv would leave the real evolutionary dead-ends in obscurity.
posted by j_curiouser at 1:59 AM on March 29, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by j_curiouser at 1:59 AM on March 29, 2023 [2 favorites]
To add some balance to this US-centric list:
Marillion - Garden Party
Gentle Giant - Two Weeks In Spain
It Bites - Once Around The World
Cardiacs - As Cold As Can Be In An English Sea
posted by GallonOfAlan at 3:25 AM on March 29, 2023 [6 favorites]
Marillion - Garden Party
Gentle Giant - Two Weeks In Spain
It Bites - Once Around The World
Cardiacs - As Cold As Can Be In An English Sea
posted by GallonOfAlan at 3:25 AM on March 29, 2023 [6 favorites]
Yes — Leave it! was kind of a revelation when I first heard it on the radio—I hardly knew anything beyond radio at that point in my youth, so, glad these bands got some airplay then.
posted by newdaddy at 3:56 AM on March 29, 2023 [9 favorites]
posted by newdaddy at 3:56 AM on March 29, 2023 [9 favorites]
I've long thought that modern pop evolved out of progressive rock (in much the same way that birds evolved from dinosaurs). Although the early work of such as Genesis or Yes or even King Crimson were obviously pop music that had got out of hand (it was unclear exactly what the boundaries of Pop could be in 1969).
Also a lot of these bands were having hits (in the UK at least) - Genesis got on Top of the Pops with I Know What I Like and Follow You Follow Me, ELP got to number two with Fanfare for the Common Man and Yes got to number seven with Wondrous Stories. It was finding an ex-jukebox copy of their next single of Going For the One that converted me to progressive ways. It sounds fantastic on a Dansette, which is more than you can say for Supper's Ready. That said, I'd also contend that if Genesis had released the Willow Farm segment of Supper's Ready as a single, it would probably also have been a hit. It was the sort of thing the early seventies lapped up.
Mike Oldfield had a few hits, and Tubular Bells was enormously popular. Also, Jeff Waynes' War of the Worlds (a concept album par excellence) was a colossal hit, spawning a number of hit singles. Both were as resident in people's homes as Saturday Night Fever and Queen's Greatest Hits Vol. 1 would be.
Anyway, progressive rock and the UK charts weren't unadjacent, and if the artist deigned to release something as a 7" and it was interesting enough that the pluggers could be bothered to work their dark magic, it could end up on Top of the Pops.
It struck me that UK's Nothing To Lose (UK's bassist and vocalist John Wetton's next band would be Asia, which comprised prog stalwarts and was literally designed to create music that would get on the radio and make hits) could easily have been covered by Take That and no one would know the difference. It's also the Asia blueprint a few years early.
One important characteristic of progressive rock was its grand gesturality, and this was very useful to the increasingly arena-based pop of the 80s (and essential to the almost-exclusively arena-based pop of today). Bands like Jethro Tull, Genesis, Pink Floyd and so forth made it part of their mission to create shows that were designed to entertain people all over those audiences, and what you see when go to a modern show has descended from that work. Often literally - the designer of many high-profile light shows today, Patrick Woodroffe (not the late illustrator of the same name, that would be too perfect) cut his teeth in the early seventies working on this sort of show.
Also, ZTT. When it came out, I mentally filed Welcome to the Pleasuredome with progressive rock rather than Wham!. Also, huge chunks of Yes' Drama album had been huge chunks of the second Buggles album.
When it came out, King Crimson's Discipline was very much this move.
Ooh, a lot of typing. tldr: "Yes!".
posted by Grangousier at 4:25 AM on March 29, 2023 [14 favorites]
Also a lot of these bands were having hits (in the UK at least) - Genesis got on Top of the Pops with I Know What I Like and Follow You Follow Me, ELP got to number two with Fanfare for the Common Man and Yes got to number seven with Wondrous Stories. It was finding an ex-jukebox copy of their next single of Going For the One that converted me to progressive ways. It sounds fantastic on a Dansette, which is more than you can say for Supper's Ready. That said, I'd also contend that if Genesis had released the Willow Farm segment of Supper's Ready as a single, it would probably also have been a hit. It was the sort of thing the early seventies lapped up.
Mike Oldfield had a few hits, and Tubular Bells was enormously popular. Also, Jeff Waynes' War of the Worlds (a concept album par excellence) was a colossal hit, spawning a number of hit singles. Both were as resident in people's homes as Saturday Night Fever and Queen's Greatest Hits Vol. 1 would be.
Anyway, progressive rock and the UK charts weren't unadjacent, and if the artist deigned to release something as a 7" and it was interesting enough that the pluggers could be bothered to work their dark magic, it could end up on Top of the Pops.
It struck me that UK's Nothing To Lose (UK's bassist and vocalist John Wetton's next band would be Asia, which comprised prog stalwarts and was literally designed to create music that would get on the radio and make hits) could easily have been covered by Take That and no one would know the difference. It's also the Asia blueprint a few years early.
One important characteristic of progressive rock was its grand gesturality, and this was very useful to the increasingly arena-based pop of the 80s (and essential to the almost-exclusively arena-based pop of today). Bands like Jethro Tull, Genesis, Pink Floyd and so forth made it part of their mission to create shows that were designed to entertain people all over those audiences, and what you see when go to a modern show has descended from that work. Often literally - the designer of many high-profile light shows today, Patrick Woodroffe (not the late illustrator of the same name, that would be too perfect) cut his teeth in the early seventies working on this sort of show.
Also, ZTT. When it came out, I mentally filed Welcome to the Pleasuredome with progressive rock rather than Wham!. Also, huge chunks of Yes' Drama album had been huge chunks of the second Buggles album.
When it came out, King Crimson's Discipline was very much this move.
Ooh, a lot of typing. tldr: "Yes!".
posted by Grangousier at 4:25 AM on March 29, 2023 [14 favorites]
Oh, and the Cardiacs tune that counts as crossover would, surely, be Is This the Life?, which did chart briefly. I'd have loved to have seen them take their grubby primary-school antics to Top of the Pops.
posted by Grangousier at 4:28 AM on March 29, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by Grangousier at 4:28 AM on March 29, 2023 [1 favorite]
Actually, this is probably better - the live version from All That Glitters Is a Mare's Nest, which is kind of magnificent. Also Tim and Bic are playing a Westone Thunder II and a Shergold Masquerader respectively, which are the most authentically 80s guitars to me. There were the pointy, ridiculous ones, of course, but both of these were reliably decent players and sounders without all that fashion nonsense.
(actually actually, looking again, the headstock of Tim's guitar is wrong for a Thunder II, but he did play one, and the irrelevant comment still stands.)
posted by Grangousier at 4:38 AM on March 29, 2023 [1 favorite]
(actually actually, looking again, the headstock of Tim's guitar is wrong for a Thunder II, but he did play one, and the irrelevant comment still stands.)
posted by Grangousier at 4:38 AM on March 29, 2023 [1 favorite]
I'd also throw in Bowie, since he went from one of his proggiest periods (the Berlin period, with Low, "Heroes", Lodger, and arguably Scary Monsters (and Super Creeps)) to Let's Dance, which began what he himself called his "Phil Collins period". And you could even stretch the definition of "prog" to include Springsteen doing the definitely poppier Born in the USA, although the lyrics were more depressing than ever.
posted by Halloween Jack at 4:49 AM on March 29, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by Halloween Jack at 4:49 AM on March 29, 2023 [2 favorites]
(I mean, if Styx counts as "prog", well...)
posted by Halloween Jack at 4:49 AM on March 29, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by Halloween Jack at 4:49 AM on March 29, 2023 [4 favorites]
Mr. Roboto would like a word with you.
posted by slogger at 5:00 AM on March 29, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by slogger at 5:00 AM on March 29, 2023 [2 favorites]
I would have thought that The Alan Parsons Project would be better represented by Eye in the Sky.
posted by Slothrup at 5:10 AM on March 29, 2023 [11 favorites]
posted by Slothrup at 5:10 AM on March 29, 2023 [11 favorites]
How a recording-studio mishap shaped '80s music
posted by 1970s Antihero at 5:18 AM on March 29, 2023 [8 favorites]
posted by 1970s Antihero at 5:18 AM on March 29, 2023 [8 favorites]
(I mean, if Styx counts as "prog", well...)
I was surprised to see them mentioned as well, but it does give me a springboard to mention the very strange "Mr. Roboto" tour show that I saw back in the day, in which the opening act was a short movie about the robots taking over and banning rock music or whatever, here it is, but I don't recommend watching it, just skip to the part where Dennis DeYoung takes out a robot by punching it in the stomach and then taking its robot clothes, and my friends and I were all, I didn't think robots worked that way???
Once they stopped all the nonsense and started singing the show was fantastic.
posted by JanetLand at 5:59 AM on March 29, 2023 [4 favorites]
I was surprised to see them mentioned as well, but it does give me a springboard to mention the very strange "Mr. Roboto" tour show that I saw back in the day, in which the opening act was a short movie about the robots taking over and banning rock music or whatever, here it is, but I don't recommend watching it, just skip to the part where Dennis DeYoung takes out a robot by punching it in the stomach and then taking its robot clothes, and my friends and I were all, I didn't think robots worked that way???
Once they stopped all the nonsense and started singing the show was fantastic.
posted by JanetLand at 5:59 AM on March 29, 2023 [4 favorites]
Mod note: one comment removed at poster’s request . Carry on, good people!
posted by Brandon Blatcher (staff) at 6:01 AM on March 29, 2023
posted by Brandon Blatcher (staff) at 6:01 AM on March 29, 2023
Sure, and Styx also did Paradise Theatre. But, if one or two concept albums is sufficient for proghood, then not only does that rope in Bowie and Springsteen (I'd argue that all his albums up through The River constitute a sort of Jersey Cycle), but The Who, as well.
posted by Halloween Jack at 6:38 AM on March 29, 2023
posted by Halloween Jack at 6:38 AM on March 29, 2023
I enjoyed the song "Time Stand Still" for quite some time before I learned that it was a Rush song and the great vocal on it was Geddy Lee. Turns out he has a nice voice when he wants to use it that way.
posted by ThatCanadianGirl at 6:44 AM on March 29, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by ThatCanadianGirl at 6:44 AM on March 29, 2023 [1 favorite]
Wasn't that Aimee Mann singing that part you think was Geddy's?
posted by JoeZydeco at 6:46 AM on March 29, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by JoeZydeco at 6:46 AM on March 29, 2023 [1 favorite]
No no the Geddy part was good too! Aimee singing was likely part of the reason I didn't know it was Rush. They had never had another singer with them. But the chorus "Seize this moment a little bit longer. Make each sensation a little bit stronger" is Geddy and it's really melodic and sing-alongable. Who knew he could do that?
posted by ThatCanadianGirl at 6:58 AM on March 29, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by ThatCanadianGirl at 6:58 AM on March 29, 2023 [2 favorites]
Whoa Starship's video for Nothing's Going to Stop Us is some terrifying shit.
Mannequin is one of those so bad it completes the circle and becomes if not good, at least fun to watch movies from the 80s.
posted by COD at 7:12 AM on March 29, 2023
Mannequin is one of those so bad it completes the circle and becomes if not good, at least fun to watch movies from the 80s.
posted by COD at 7:12 AM on March 29, 2023
Glam/metal rather than prog, but Slade followed a similar trajectory, having a strong cult following in the US until 1984 when they had a hit with Run Runaway.
posted by TedW at 7:15 AM on March 29, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by TedW at 7:15 AM on March 29, 2023 [2 favorites]
Oh, god, “Avalon” is one of those songs that transports me back to a moment in college where I was dancing with a girl I had a crush on, to that actual song, and for one brief moment I was a romantic lead, and nothing mattered but the girl, the song, and the dance. At the height of it we actually kissed.
The relationship was toxic as hell and I got used and abused in it, but that moment, that dance, that kiss, all the possibilities in it, still come back to me from that song, and it reminds me of the good, instead of the bad, for them.
posted by mephron at 7:16 AM on March 29, 2023 [10 favorites]
The relationship was toxic as hell and I got used and abused in it, but that moment, that dance, that kiss, all the possibilities in it, still come back to me from that song, and it reminds me of the good, instead of the bad, for them.
posted by mephron at 7:16 AM on March 29, 2023 [10 favorites]
Even as Jefferson Starship they had bangers like "Find Your Way Back" (which sounds like Boston; unfortunate '80s imagery) and "Jane."
posted by kirkaracha at 7:17 AM on March 29, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by kirkaracha at 7:17 AM on March 29, 2023 [2 favorites]
The Avalon album was my side one of Led Zeppelin IV.
posted by kirkaracha at 7:18 AM on March 29, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by kirkaracha at 7:18 AM on March 29, 2023 [2 favorites]
They've talked about how they admired and were influenced by The Police, who were sort of on a journey in the opposite direction—from their early just-post-punk sound to something more elaborate and ambitious.
Not prog at all, but The Jam > Style Council and The Housemartins > Beautiful South followed a similar journey as The Police.
posted by kirkaracha at 7:23 AM on March 29, 2023 [3 favorites]
Not prog at all, but The Jam > Style Council and The Housemartins > Beautiful South followed a similar journey as The Police.
posted by kirkaracha at 7:23 AM on March 29, 2023 [3 favorites]
Run Runaway smartly rode the coattails of Quiet's Riot's cover of Cum on Feel the Noize, )in the US) which went to #1 and essentially started the whole glam/hair metal craze. Without QR's breakthrough hit, most of those bands probably never get out of the Sunset Strip scene.
posted by COD at 7:24 AM on March 29, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by COD at 7:24 AM on March 29, 2023 [3 favorites]
Yes - Our Song (B-side of Owner of a Lonely Heart peaked at #32 according to Wikipedia)
I was a high schooler back in the day of the legendary concert on which this song is based. It was a blazing mid-summer day. With no AC, the inside temperature of the (since-demolished) Toledo Sports Arena reached the mid-120s F. The capacity of the venue was in the neighborhood of 6500. I was admittedly not among them, but so many more than that claimed to be there that night.
I found the shout-out surprising but
very cool (pun intended) when I first listened to 90125. The song obviously received substantial airplay here, perhaps a reason why it charted at all.
posted by MorgansAmoebas at 7:40 AM on March 29, 2023
I was a high schooler back in the day of the legendary concert on which this song is based. It was a blazing mid-summer day. With no AC, the inside temperature of the (since-demolished) Toledo Sports Arena reached the mid-120s F. The capacity of the venue was in the neighborhood of 6500. I was admittedly not among them, but so many more than that claimed to be there that night.
I found the shout-out surprising but
very cool (pun intended) when I first listened to 90125. The song obviously received substantial airplay here, perhaps a reason why it charted at all.
posted by MorgansAmoebas at 7:40 AM on March 29, 2023
Whoo. Great post from the 80s - my prime-time as a young adult on the technical side of commercial radio.
It seems to me that in some cases it's less the 80s went prog, and more like many prog bands simply went pop. Genesis became Phil Collins' backup band as he unapologetically stepped away from prog to make top-40 hits. Mike & the Mechanics was Mr Rutherford's attempt to do likewise. Jefferson Starship and Yes deliberately tried for some hits. Asia was formed to make hits.
Styx, Pink Floyd, Boston... to me they were in the category of arena-rock bands (though pretty good ones, and each also with their own past laurels to rest on) who put out some hit-worthy songs.
I thought Rush was just continuing their own trajectory without compromise; some of their new music was more accessible, and popular tastes sort of met them halfway.
To me, Peter Gabriel always did his own thing, and the wider market finally found him?
Hmmm. Maybe I'm more agreeing with the thesis that the early 80s did lean into prog somewhat. I will note that the FM AOR radio format was pretty big at the time, and the artists we're discussing were staples of that genre.
Again, thanks for this chance to reminisce. Now I gotta shoo some Tiktok-obsessed kids off of my front lawn.
posted by Artful Codger at 8:33 AM on March 29, 2023 [5 favorites]
It seems to me that in some cases it's less the 80s went prog, and more like many prog bands simply went pop. Genesis became Phil Collins' backup band as he unapologetically stepped away from prog to make top-40 hits. Mike & the Mechanics was Mr Rutherford's attempt to do likewise. Jefferson Starship and Yes deliberately tried for some hits. Asia was formed to make hits.
Styx, Pink Floyd, Boston... to me they were in the category of arena-rock bands (though pretty good ones, and each also with their own past laurels to rest on) who put out some hit-worthy songs.
I thought Rush was just continuing their own trajectory without compromise; some of their new music was more accessible, and popular tastes sort of met them halfway.
To me, Peter Gabriel always did his own thing, and the wider market finally found him?
Hmmm. Maybe I'm more agreeing with the thesis that the early 80s did lean into prog somewhat. I will note that the FM AOR radio format was pretty big at the time, and the artists we're discussing were staples of that genre.
Again, thanks for this chance to reminisce. Now I gotta shoo some Tiktok-obsessed kids off of my front lawn.
posted by Artful Codger at 8:33 AM on March 29, 2023 [5 favorites]
Wasn't there a week summer of 1986 where four of the top 40 albums (10%) were Genesis members - the main band, Mike and the Mechanics, Gabriel, Collins?
posted by bendybendy at 8:40 AM on March 29, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by bendybendy at 8:40 AM on March 29, 2023 [2 favorites]
KRVM has a progressive rock program with lots of good, obscure stuff. It's on for 2 hours every Sunday evening and you can stream the last 2 episodes here. Check out KRVM's other programs as well. There's swing, country & western, afropop, Native American, bluegrass, funk, blues, reggae, americana, and more.
posted by neuron at 8:56 AM on March 29, 2023
posted by neuron at 8:56 AM on March 29, 2023
(I mean, if Styx counts as "prog", well...)
I applaud the work that went into this post and have enjoyed reading this thread. But I would be remiss if I did not point out that, I, a resolute prog rock fanatic as late as 1979-80, can get almost nothing but PAIN from the vast majority of the stuff getting mentioned here (then and now), and would describe almost none of it as progressive.
So allow me please a quick alternate historic perspective. Which really only involves three details.
1. the 1980 releases of Peter Gabriel's third (melting face) album and Genesis's Duke. Though I had been passionately looking forward to Duke, it was the reductive fierceness of the Gabriel item that forcibly kicked me into the now and compelled me to really open up to all the real progress that was going on in the name of music (ie: generally not found anywhere near an outfit to which the adjective Prog was getting attached anymore).
2. relevant to my waning prog rock enthusiasms, the Rush of Hemispheres, Permanent Waves, Moving Pictures was the last so-called prog item I ever made an effort to get into. In fact, I saw all three tours, and they were ... okay. But nothing close to the likes of Yes-Genesis-Jethro-Tull in their mid-70s primes in terms of surprise, passion, full-on astonishing attainment. And more to the point, they also didn't come close to the drama of smaller venue Clash, U2, Simple Minds, OMD, concerts I saw around the same time.
3. and speaking of drama, notably absent from this post is Yes's oddball 1980 release of the same name -- an album I really quite dug at the time. It's the one where lead singer Jon Anderson was absent (having quit the band for reasons) so I had low expectations, which got even lower when I heard he (and keyboardist Rick Wakeman) were getting replaced by two Buggles. Seriously, WTF!?!? But it worked. It still works. It's a sharp, smart, pop savvy and crisp, rock heavy slab of genuine progression which continues to stand for me as a sad example of a road not taken (ie: if only Drama had hit, maybe Prog could've remained relevant to me and my desires, but it didn't, so I moved on.)
Obviously a big part of all this was my age. By 1980, I was twenty-one so old enough to see bands in bars anywhere in North America. Smaller, more compressed venues where less really could be WAY MORE. No, the artists I was seeing weren't generally getting a pile of radio airplay (with its attendant hype), but they were nevertheless bringing the noise, OWNING those rooms. For me, the message was obvious: the cool and necessary music of the now was something I would have to seek out, not sit around waiting for the corporate interests that owned radio to serve to me.
posted by philip-random at 8:59 AM on March 29, 2023 [8 favorites]
I applaud the work that went into this post and have enjoyed reading this thread. But I would be remiss if I did not point out that, I, a resolute prog rock fanatic as late as 1979-80, can get almost nothing but PAIN from the vast majority of the stuff getting mentioned here (then and now), and would describe almost none of it as progressive.
So allow me please a quick alternate historic perspective. Which really only involves three details.
1. the 1980 releases of Peter Gabriel's third (melting face) album and Genesis's Duke. Though I had been passionately looking forward to Duke, it was the reductive fierceness of the Gabriel item that forcibly kicked me into the now and compelled me to really open up to all the real progress that was going on in the name of music (ie: generally not found anywhere near an outfit to which the adjective Prog was getting attached anymore).
2. relevant to my waning prog rock enthusiasms, the Rush of Hemispheres, Permanent Waves, Moving Pictures was the last so-called prog item I ever made an effort to get into. In fact, I saw all three tours, and they were ... okay. But nothing close to the likes of Yes-Genesis-Jethro-Tull in their mid-70s primes in terms of surprise, passion, full-on astonishing attainment. And more to the point, they also didn't come close to the drama of smaller venue Clash, U2, Simple Minds, OMD, concerts I saw around the same time.
3. and speaking of drama, notably absent from this post is Yes's oddball 1980 release of the same name -- an album I really quite dug at the time. It's the one where lead singer Jon Anderson was absent (having quit the band for reasons) so I had low expectations, which got even lower when I heard he (and keyboardist Rick Wakeman) were getting replaced by two Buggles. Seriously, WTF!?!? But it worked. It still works. It's a sharp, smart, pop savvy and crisp, rock heavy slab of genuine progression which continues to stand for me as a sad example of a road not taken (ie: if only Drama had hit, maybe Prog could've remained relevant to me and my desires, but it didn't, so I moved on.)
Obviously a big part of all this was my age. By 1980, I was twenty-one so old enough to see bands in bars anywhere in North America. Smaller, more compressed venues where less really could be WAY MORE. No, the artists I was seeing weren't generally getting a pile of radio airplay (with its attendant hype), but they were nevertheless bringing the noise, OWNING those rooms. For me, the message was obvious: the cool and necessary music of the now was something I would have to seek out, not sit around waiting for the corporate interests that owned radio to serve to me.
posted by philip-random at 8:59 AM on March 29, 2023 [8 favorites]
Wasn't there a week summer of 1986 where four of the top 40 albums (10%) were Genesis members - the main band, Mike and the Mechanics, Gabriel, Collins?
The week of June 28, 1986, Peter Gabriel was at #10 with So, Genesis was at #23 with Invisible Touch, Phil Collins was at #34 with No Jacket Required, and Mike + the Mechanics was at #37 with their eponymous debut album.
posted by kirkaracha at 9:06 AM on March 29, 2023 [5 favorites]
The week of June 28, 1986, Peter Gabriel was at #10 with So, Genesis was at #23 with Invisible Touch, Phil Collins was at #34 with No Jacket Required, and Mike + the Mechanics was at #37 with their eponymous debut album.
posted by kirkaracha at 9:06 AM on March 29, 2023 [5 favorites]
And poor Tony has never managed any chart success on his own in any form.
posted by hippybear at 9:11 AM on March 29, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by hippybear at 9:11 AM on March 29, 2023 [1 favorite]
And looking it up, I see GTR got as high as #11 on the charts also in 1986, bringing Steve Hackett neatly into the fold for that Genesis year.
posted by hippybear at 9:16 AM on March 29, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by hippybear at 9:16 AM on March 29, 2023 [2 favorites]
I love this type of music, great post! Don't forget about Kansas! Play the Game Tonight and Fight Fire With Fire are probably the best examples from that era.
posted by Clustercuss at 9:21 AM on March 29, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by Clustercuss at 9:21 AM on March 29, 2023 [1 favorite]
With 80s pop uber-producer Trevor Horn adding state-of-the-art sounds and style to the line-up’s 1983 debut, 90125, Yes experienced a glorious rebirth.
Fun fact: The vocals on The Art of Noise's "Close to the (Edit)" are mostly repurposed from the backing vocals on Yes' "Leave It" and the song is structured around a discarded drum riff sample that Horn had recorded for Yes. The title is inspired by Yes’s Close to the Edge, which I failed to realize for decades.
posted by prinado at 9:32 AM on March 29, 2023 [6 favorites]
Fun fact: The vocals on The Art of Noise's "Close to the (Edit)" are mostly repurposed from the backing vocals on Yes' "Leave It" and the song is structured around a discarded drum riff sample that Horn had recorded for Yes. The title is inspired by Yes’s Close to the Edge, which I failed to realize for decades.
posted by prinado at 9:32 AM on March 29, 2023 [6 favorites]
Seems fairer to say the proggies got all 80s.
posted by kokaku at 9:54 AM on March 29, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by kokaku at 9:54 AM on March 29, 2023 [3 favorites]
As much as I love Heat of the Moment, I love Only Time Will Tell even more. The opening synth riff is one of the first things I taught my kid to play on the piano.
I wore out my VHS copy of Yes' 9012Live. Nice versions of their then-contemporary hits, but I was particularly blown away by the versions of some of their older classics. Also, the video effects in the little filler montages are fun, and their 80s rock fashion was in full effect.
Piggybacking on prinado's comment above, Jon Anderson speaks with Dan Rather here about how Owner of a Lonely Heart came about, and I'm reminded of what a lovely person he is.
posted by vverse23 at 10:30 AM on March 29, 2023 [1 favorite]
I wore out my VHS copy of Yes' 9012Live. Nice versions of their then-contemporary hits, but I was particularly blown away by the versions of some of their older classics. Also, the video effects in the little filler montages are fun, and their 80s rock fashion was in full effect.
Piggybacking on prinado's comment above, Jon Anderson speaks with Dan Rather here about how Owner of a Lonely Heart came about, and I'm reminded of what a lovely person he is.
posted by vverse23 at 10:30 AM on March 29, 2023 [1 favorite]
Not that all prog has to be in a time signature other than 4/4, but Genesis' Turn It On Again is possibly the only hit rock song from any era that is (mostly) in 13/4.
posted by vverse23 at 10:38 AM on March 29, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by vverse23 at 10:38 AM on March 29, 2023 [4 favorites]
Sure, and Styx also did Paradise Theatre. But, if one or two concept albums is sufficient for proghood, then not only does that rope in Bowie and Springsteen (I'd argue that all his albums up through The River constitute a sort of Jersey Cycle), but The Who, as well.
Fair point (well, except for the Springsteen part). But does a band need to be considered "prog" for the music to be labeled as such? Or vice versa? I would argue that there is not a note of prog rock in Rush's first album and it's pur rock & roll. (Okay, that's a flimsy example since it's their first album and with a different drummer, but I stand by that point.)
I guess this pokes at questioning the definition of prog rock itself. Is a concept album or rock opera automatically labeled prog? I would definitely consider Tommy and Quadrophenia as prog rock staples. Yet, by that definition Nebraska and Ghost of Tom Joad would be too.
In conclusion, prog rock is a land of contrasts. Thank you.
posted by slogger at 10:46 AM on March 29, 2023 [2 favorites]
Fair point (well, except for the Springsteen part). But does a band need to be considered "prog" for the music to be labeled as such? Or vice versa? I would argue that there is not a note of prog rock in Rush's first album and it's pur rock & roll. (Okay, that's a flimsy example since it's their first album and with a different drummer, but I stand by that point.)
I guess this pokes at questioning the definition of prog rock itself. Is a concept album or rock opera automatically labeled prog? I would definitely consider Tommy and Quadrophenia as prog rock staples. Yet, by that definition Nebraska and Ghost of Tom Joad would be too.
In conclusion, prog rock is a land of contrasts. Thank you.
posted by slogger at 10:46 AM on March 29, 2023 [2 favorites]
I think Styx's place in the prog canon was well and securely set with Come Sail Away, which is about UFOs and has an extended extraterrestrial synthesizer journey in the middle.
posted by hippybear at 10:49 AM on March 29, 2023 [6 favorites]
posted by hippybear at 10:49 AM on March 29, 2023 [6 favorites]
I find it amusing that "Sleepless" is the King Crimson song that charted, since I think it's one of the least interesting cuts on that album. I'd consider the entire trio of albums Discipline, Beat, and Three of a Perfect Pair to be "pop-ish prog".
posted by Greg_Ace at 10:50 AM on March 29, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by Greg_Ace at 10:50 AM on March 29, 2023 [2 favorites]
...when they had a hit with Run Runaway.
Or as it will forever be known in my head, "that 'Ding-dong Chameleon' song".
The title is inspired by Yes’s Close to the Edge, which I failed to realize for decades.
I, too, only realized this in [checks OneNote list of "Revelations"] May of 2019. Growing up a "New Wave" kid who also loved Rush, it's been interesting to look back and discover all the collaborations of both musicians and producers between prog proper and what I thought of as "new". In hindsight, artists like Bowie and Peter Gabriel are clear connective tissue between the proggy past and the wavy future, along with omni-collaborators like Robert Fripp and Adrian Belew, and cross-pollinators like Steve Lillywhite and Hugh Padgham.
And of course, if you'd told me at the time that the guy who was in the Buggles was also in Yes, then produced for Frankie Goes to Hollywood, then later formed the Art of Noise, it would have blown my little mind (and probably broadened my horizons), but the prog DNA is easy to hear in hindsight. The fact that FGTH's "Welcome to the Pleasure Dome" is a long-form song based on "Kubla Khan" that starts with dreamy atmospheric animal sounds probably isn't a coincidence. Even the guitar tone in rock-of-the-eighties staple A Flock of Seagulls' "Wishing" (produced by prog vet Mike Howlett) wouldn't have sounded out of place in a Rush song.
posted by The Tensor at 10:55 AM on March 29, 2023 [3 favorites]
Or as it will forever be known in my head, "that 'Ding-dong Chameleon' song".
The title is inspired by Yes’s Close to the Edge, which I failed to realize for decades.
I, too, only realized this in [checks OneNote list of "Revelations"] May of 2019. Growing up a "New Wave" kid who also loved Rush, it's been interesting to look back and discover all the collaborations of both musicians and producers between prog proper and what I thought of as "new". In hindsight, artists like Bowie and Peter Gabriel are clear connective tissue between the proggy past and the wavy future, along with omni-collaborators like Robert Fripp and Adrian Belew, and cross-pollinators like Steve Lillywhite and Hugh Padgham.
And of course, if you'd told me at the time that the guy who was in the Buggles was also in Yes, then produced for Frankie Goes to Hollywood, then later formed the Art of Noise, it would have blown my little mind (and probably broadened my horizons), but the prog DNA is easy to hear in hindsight. The fact that FGTH's "Welcome to the Pleasure Dome" is a long-form song based on "Kubla Khan" that starts with dreamy atmospheric animal sounds probably isn't a coincidence. Even the guitar tone in rock-of-the-eighties staple A Flock of Seagulls' "Wishing" (produced by prog vet Mike Howlett) wouldn't have sounded out of place in a Rush song.
posted by The Tensor at 10:55 AM on March 29, 2023 [3 favorites]
In conclusion, prog rock is a land of contrasts. Thank you.
This is hardly news I'm sure, but so much of what we have come to call Prog over the years is bluntly, not progressive.
And now, quoting myself from that previous thread:
Yes-Genesis-King-Crimson-etc were not aping anyone (even themselves) when they were defining this sound. They were just going for it, stretching their craft and imaginations to no end, riding on the temper of the moment, being artistically free. But then something happened. Because by around 1976 (post King Crimson shutdown, post Gabriel leaving Genesis, post Rick Wakeman leaving then returning to Yes) stuff just wasn't progressing anymore. progressive had become Prog (a definable sound with requisite audience expectations). If you wanted music that was going to rearrange your brain chemicals, it wasn't going to come from that corner anymore. Sad but true.
And further to this. If you dig into some old journalism archives, you find that the term "progressive rock" (note the lack of caps) first started popping up in the wake of stuff like The Beatles' Sgt. Peppers. All it meant was that the artists in question were no longer interested in adhering to the "rules" of stuff like pop, trad-blues, trad-folk etc ... but rather, they wanted to explore more, get creative in the recording studio and with their songwriting.
So a band like Led Zeppelin were thinking of what they were doing as progressive even on their first album, almost half of which was really just amped up blues. The real turning point was King Crimson's debut which was definitively not blues, not pop, not rock N roll. It was absolutely something else.
posted by philip-random at 11:16 AM on March 29, 2023 [1 favorite]
This is hardly news I'm sure, but so much of what we have come to call Prog over the years is bluntly, not progressive.
And now, quoting myself from that previous thread:
Yes-Genesis-King-Crimson-etc were not aping anyone (even themselves) when they were defining this sound. They were just going for it, stretching their craft and imaginations to no end, riding on the temper of the moment, being artistically free. But then something happened. Because by around 1976 (post King Crimson shutdown, post Gabriel leaving Genesis, post Rick Wakeman leaving then returning to Yes) stuff just wasn't progressing anymore. progressive had become Prog (a definable sound with requisite audience expectations). If you wanted music that was going to rearrange your brain chemicals, it wasn't going to come from that corner anymore. Sad but true.
And further to this. If you dig into some old journalism archives, you find that the term "progressive rock" (note the lack of caps) first started popping up in the wake of stuff like The Beatles' Sgt. Peppers. All it meant was that the artists in question were no longer interested in adhering to the "rules" of stuff like pop, trad-blues, trad-folk etc ... but rather, they wanted to explore more, get creative in the recording studio and with their songwriting.
So a band like Led Zeppelin were thinking of what they were doing as progressive even on their first album, almost half of which was really just amped up blues. The real turning point was King Crimson's debut which was definitively not blues, not pop, not rock N roll. It was absolutely something else.
posted by philip-random at 11:16 AM on March 29, 2023 [1 favorite]
Also more blues than prog, but Fleetwood Mac followed a similar path to pop.
posted by kirkaracha at 11:25 AM on March 29, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by kirkaracha at 11:25 AM on March 29, 2023 [1 favorite]
And Toto too!
posted by Cookiebastard at 11:28 AM on March 29, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by Cookiebastard at 11:28 AM on March 29, 2023 [2 favorites]
Also more blues than prog, but Fleetwood Mac followed a similar path to pop.
I was just discussing them with a friend who's quite the expert and a particular fan of their Peter Green driven blues phase. He maintains that by Green's last album (Then Play On) which unfortunately has a different track list pretty every time I notice a copy (making it a difficult album to discuss), they were very much a progressive act -- still working the blues, but not at all held back by them.
He maintains that they weren't even the same band anymore by the time Lindsey Buckingham and Stevie Nicks showed up. In fact, he defies anyone to even name a song from the three albums that preceded their arrival. With one exception. That being Hypnotized.
"But hypnotized is like a whole other other band, neither what Fleetwood Mac once were, or would become, or even were on the rest of that otherwise remarkably unremarkable album."
posted by philip-random at 12:03 PM on March 29, 2023
I was just discussing them with a friend who's quite the expert and a particular fan of their Peter Green driven blues phase. He maintains that by Green's last album (Then Play On) which unfortunately has a different track list pretty every time I notice a copy (making it a difficult album to discuss), they were very much a progressive act -- still working the blues, but not at all held back by them.
He maintains that they weren't even the same band anymore by the time Lindsey Buckingham and Stevie Nicks showed up. In fact, he defies anyone to even name a song from the three albums that preceded their arrival. With one exception. That being Hypnotized.
"But hypnotized is like a whole other other band, neither what Fleetwood Mac once were, or would become, or even were on the rest of that otherwise remarkably unremarkable album."
posted by philip-random at 12:03 PM on March 29, 2023
progressive had become Prog (a definable sound with requisite audience expectations).
And I actually think that these bands started basically digressing from complex music to very simple music to make the pop charts. Compared to "Come Sail Away", "Too Much Time on My Hands" by Styx is extremely simple and "Sledgehammer" by Peter Gabriel is pretty simple too - all the sound effects cover a song that is not very complex, and by 'not very complex' I mean less chords than your average Ramones song. Compared to that, what REM was doing at the time was far more complex rhythmically. Whatever. It got them a lot of money and hits on the pop charts. And I actually like these a lot of these songs just fine. But they are not complex - they are not 'progressive' or complex musically.
Several of these bands are hit pretty hard in 'What makes this song stink' podcast - from the dropoff between the 'singable riff' to the rest of the song (think the Final Countdown riff vs the rest of the song). "Owner of Lonely Heart" is in the running for that also. Also the 'trucker downshift' key change (pretty sure Sledgehammer has one) and the 'boomerang riff', where they return to the big riff to cover for a boring verse. These are all cliches these '80s bands hit hard.
posted by The_Vegetables at 12:10 PM on March 29, 2023 [3 favorites]
And I actually think that these bands started basically digressing from complex music to very simple music to make the pop charts. Compared to "Come Sail Away", "Too Much Time on My Hands" by Styx is extremely simple and "Sledgehammer" by Peter Gabriel is pretty simple too - all the sound effects cover a song that is not very complex, and by 'not very complex' I mean less chords than your average Ramones song. Compared to that, what REM was doing at the time was far more complex rhythmically. Whatever. It got them a lot of money and hits on the pop charts. And I actually like these a lot of these songs just fine. But they are not complex - they are not 'progressive' or complex musically.
Several of these bands are hit pretty hard in 'What makes this song stink' podcast - from the dropoff between the 'singable riff' to the rest of the song (think the Final Countdown riff vs the rest of the song). "Owner of Lonely Heart" is in the running for that also. Also the 'trucker downshift' key change (pretty sure Sledgehammer has one) and the 'boomerang riff', where they return to the big riff to cover for a boring verse. These are all cliches these '80s bands hit hard.
posted by The_Vegetables at 12:10 PM on March 29, 2023 [3 favorites]
Oh what a great thread!
All [prog] meant was that the artists in question were no longer interested in adhering to the "rules" of stuff like pop, trad-blues, trad-folk etc ... but rather, they wanted to explore more, get creative in the recording studio and with their songwriting.
There are some conventions in much of what we call 'prog', but I think the above is also correct. The artists were doing more thinking and writing, and the compositions were more complex and challenging, and this is about 180 degrees from what usually goes into an intentionally-created pop hit, such as much of Phil Collins' solo period.
I think Styx's place in the prog canon was well and securely set with Come Sail Away, which is about UFOs and has an extended extraterrestrial synthesizer journey in the middle.
I dunno. A bit lightweight? Come Sail Away is prog-adjacent, maybe. Anyway, the definitive Cartman version has forever changed me.
And poor Tony [Banks] has never managed any chart success on his own in any form.
May I point you to "A Curious Feeling" (1979) by Tony, which actually charted in the UK. This, and "Smallcreep's Day" (Mike Rutherford, also 1979) are two of my favourite albums from the period, and represent for me the essence of good prog.
posted by Artful Codger at 12:39 PM on March 29, 2023 [2 favorites]
All [prog] meant was that the artists in question were no longer interested in adhering to the "rules" of stuff like pop, trad-blues, trad-folk etc ... but rather, they wanted to explore more, get creative in the recording studio and with their songwriting.
There are some conventions in much of what we call 'prog', but I think the above is also correct. The artists were doing more thinking and writing, and the compositions were more complex and challenging, and this is about 180 degrees from what usually goes into an intentionally-created pop hit, such as much of Phil Collins' solo period.
I think Styx's place in the prog canon was well and securely set with Come Sail Away, which is about UFOs and has an extended extraterrestrial synthesizer journey in the middle.
I dunno. A bit lightweight? Come Sail Away is prog-adjacent, maybe. Anyway, the definitive Cartman version has forever changed me.
And poor Tony [Banks] has never managed any chart success on his own in any form.
May I point you to "A Curious Feeling" (1979) by Tony, which actually charted in the UK. This, and "Smallcreep's Day" (Mike Rutherford, also 1979) are two of my favourite albums from the period, and represent for me the essence of good prog.
posted by Artful Codger at 12:39 PM on March 29, 2023 [2 favorites]
Tony Banks on if Phil Collins had given "In the Air Tonight" to Genesis:
“If you don’t like Genesis, I’m what you don’t like.”
“If Genesis had done it, I’d have probably screwed it up,” Banks admits. “I bet I would’ve added another chord or tried to do something with it and taken it somewhere else. I bet I would’ve said, ‘Phil, what are you doing, you can’t use just three chords in a song.”
posted by indexy at 12:50 PM on March 29, 2023 [7 favorites]
“If you don’t like Genesis, I’m what you don’t like.”
“If Genesis had done it, I’d have probably screwed it up,” Banks admits. “I bet I would’ve added another chord or tried to do something with it and taken it somewhere else. I bet I would’ve said, ‘Phil, what are you doing, you can’t use just three chords in a song.”
posted by indexy at 12:50 PM on March 29, 2023 [7 favorites]
If the only thing ever to have come out of prog was Starless, the exercise would have been worthwhile.
posted by flabdablet at 12:51 PM on March 29, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by flabdablet at 12:51 PM on March 29, 2023 [4 favorites]
I'll dig into this thread properly, but just to add one tune:
Fish & Tony Banks - Short Cut To Somewhere (1986). Fish being the singer of Marillion, and Tony being Genesis' keyboard player, of course.
posted by Pink Frost at 1:23 PM on March 29, 2023
Fish & Tony Banks - Short Cut To Somewhere (1986). Fish being the singer of Marillion, and Tony being Genesis' keyboard player, of course.
posted by Pink Frost at 1:23 PM on March 29, 2023
Of course you mean "Fish out of Marillion" as Viz. always styled him
posted by chavenet at 2:14 PM on March 29, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by chavenet at 2:14 PM on March 29, 2023 [2 favorites]
And Fish era Marillion being an 80s version of 70s Genesis in many ways
posted by GallonOfAlan at 2:55 PM on March 29, 2023
posted by GallonOfAlan at 2:55 PM on March 29, 2023
I adore that short run of Marillion where Fish was on front, and then his first solo album Vigil In A Wilderness Of Mirrors. The repeating themes, musically and lyrically across that run of 5 albums (plus b-sides etc) makes it nearly one continuous story of how a guy simply cannot get it right in life no matter how hard he tries, until quite late he learns some lessons and finally writes that love song he started so many years prior.
posted by hippybear at 3:24 PM on March 29, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by hippybear at 3:24 PM on March 29, 2023 [2 favorites]
A quote (bonus links) from Grace Slick about 'Nothing's Gonna Stop Us Now':
"I don't like to sing songs where I don't believe the lyrics. Diane Warren is an amazing pop songwriter, and she, I’m assuming, believes in that state where you’re in love, you get kind of crazy. But I’m older now. I am damn near 50, and I'm singing, 'Nothing's gonna stop us now.' I know goddamn well how fast a relationship can come apart. So I'm getting up onstage and I'm thinking, 'Yeah, right.'"
posted by box at 3:56 PM on March 29, 2023 [1 favorite]
"I don't like to sing songs where I don't believe the lyrics. Diane Warren is an amazing pop songwriter, and she, I’m assuming, believes in that state where you’re in love, you get kind of crazy. But I’m older now. I am damn near 50, and I'm singing, 'Nothing's gonna stop us now.' I know goddamn well how fast a relationship can come apart. So I'm getting up onstage and I'm thinking, 'Yeah, right.'"
posted by box at 3:56 PM on March 29, 2023 [1 favorite]
Speaking of Close to the Edit, how about this version?
posted by Slothrup at 4:05 PM on March 29, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by Slothrup at 4:05 PM on March 29, 2023 [1 favorite]
If you read this far, you might probably enjoy listening to non-stop streaming Progressive Rock Radio:
Progulous
posted by Fupped Duck at 4:19 PM on March 29, 2023 [1 favorite]
Progulous
posted by Fupped Duck at 4:19 PM on March 29, 2023 [1 favorite]
And also, when it comes to Duke-era Genesis, I really REALLY like basically all the tracks on side four of Three Sides Live. All five of those songs are completely excellent, but most haunting for me is Evidence Of Autumn.
posted by hippybear at 4:34 PM on March 29, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by hippybear at 4:34 PM on March 29, 2023 [2 favorites]
Similar to hippybear's comment: I remember not liking Me and Sarah Jane from Abacab (Genesis) at all, maybe because it didn't sound like "Lamb Lies Down" or "Turn it On Again".
On revisiting it, though: that song has classic Genesis' fingerprints all over it. It's almost four songs in one. Even if I still didn't like it, I'd see it as them trying something new, expanding, branching out. (And the lyrics probably speak to an adult quite differently than they do to a 12-year-old.)
posted by kurumi at 5:15 PM on March 29, 2023
On revisiting it, though: that song has classic Genesis' fingerprints all over it. It's almost four songs in one. Even if I still didn't like it, I'd see it as them trying something new, expanding, branching out. (And the lyrics probably speak to an adult quite differently than they do to a 12-year-old.)
posted by kurumi at 5:15 PM on March 29, 2023
Me and Sarah Jane is one of the last Genesis songs I ever really liked. Like you say, four songs in one -- a full-on pocket symphony.
posted by philip-random at 5:41 PM on March 29, 2023
posted by philip-random at 5:41 PM on March 29, 2023
Me And Sarah Jane is about a guy who makes up a girlfriend who then takes over his life and the imaginary becomes real for him.
Prog song topics are so that.
posted by hippybear at 6:21 PM on March 29, 2023 [7 favorites]
Prog song topics are so that.
posted by hippybear at 6:21 PM on March 29, 2023 [7 favorites]
I was an intense little Prog-nerd when I was young in the 70s (older bros albums) so I have thoughts & feelings about this. Prog's golden age was well over by the 80s, and I don't resent anyone making a poppy sell-out, hey pop music is groovy too, and they deserved a reward for their efforts. (And there was some interesting gloomy English post-punk/proto-goth music to move onto for those of us who felt more complex in our feelings).
Okay, I kinda resented Phil Collins a bit, because I think he's a genius but he did some things that I really didn't like. Yeah okay I resented Starship and that particular style of glossy metallic generic Corporate-Rock bullshit thing that they did that was adopted as generic music everywhere (Jane was an okay song).
What I really hated was that the FM AOR radio format was pretty big at the time, which annihilated experimental FM Radio and dispersed the audience for interesting music, which was eventually re-gathered in College Radio.
In the early 80s I recall a music production seminar where our lecturer was raving about The Buggles production style. He was ahead of his time, back then we just thought he was kooky. We were wrong, that really was the future. For a time.
The Grand Illusion by Styx was definitely Prog (stoner imagery, intricate production, listened to along with Prog albums). After that not so much.
posted by ovvl at 6:33 PM on March 29, 2023 [4 favorites]
Okay, I kinda resented Phil Collins a bit, because I think he's a genius but he did some things that I really didn't like. Yeah okay I resented Starship and that particular style of glossy metallic generic Corporate-Rock bullshit thing that they did that was adopted as generic music everywhere (Jane was an okay song).
What I really hated was that the FM AOR radio format was pretty big at the time, which annihilated experimental FM Radio and dispersed the audience for interesting music, which was eventually re-gathered in College Radio.
In the early 80s I recall a music production seminar where our lecturer was raving about The Buggles production style. He was ahead of his time, back then we just thought he was kooky. We were wrong, that really was the future. For a time.
The Grand Illusion by Styx was definitely Prog (stoner imagery, intricate production, listened to along with Prog albums). After that not so much.
posted by ovvl at 6:33 PM on March 29, 2023 [4 favorites]
but Genesis' Turn It On Again is possibly the only hit rock song from any era that is (mostly) in 13/4.
The Stranglers' "Golden Brown" is in 13/4 (or maybe 13/8): three measures of three + one measure of four.
posted by The Tensor at 6:41 PM on March 29, 2023 [4 favorites]
The Stranglers' "Golden Brown" is in 13/4 (or maybe 13/8): three measures of three + one measure of four.
posted by The Tensor at 6:41 PM on March 29, 2023 [4 favorites]
Come on in and see what's happening
Pay the price, get your ticket for the show
posted by hippybear at 6:43 PM on March 29, 2023 [2 favorites]
Pay the price, get your ticket for the show
posted by hippybear at 6:43 PM on March 29, 2023 [2 favorites]
If the only thing ever to have come out of prog was Starless yt , the exercise would have been worthwhile.Starless is an excellent track and the highlight of a strong album, but it's hardly an example of 80s prog - Red came out in 1974. It's not that I disagree with your assertion, therefore, but I'm not sure it's relevant to the discussion generally.
On the other hand, though, that is a really nice live version - I can certainly see why one would be tempted to introduce it to the conversation, given the barest excuse.. objection withdrawn..
posted by Nerd of the North at 9:32 PM on March 29, 2023 [1 favorite]
Why Me from Tony Carey’s Planet P Project was a minor “hit” as it were.
posted by Claude Hoeper at 10:06 PM on March 29, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by Claude Hoeper at 10:06 PM on March 29, 2023 [1 favorite]
I graduated high school in 1983. I love the pop stuff. I also love soul, so poppy Genesis plus the horn section from Earth, Wind, and Fire on "Paperlate" and "No Reply at All" is great.
Genesis did a prog(-ish?) version of "Behind the Lines" on Duke and Phil Collins did a pop version on Face Value (with the Earth, Wind, and Fire horn section).
posted by kirkaracha at 7:27 AM on March 30, 2023 [1 favorite]
Genesis did a prog(-ish?) version of "Behind the Lines" on Duke and Phil Collins did a pop version on Face Value (with the Earth, Wind, and Fire horn section).
posted by kirkaracha at 7:27 AM on March 30, 2023 [1 favorite]
I dunno. A bit lightweight? Come Sail Away is prog-adjacent, maybe. Anyway, the definitive Cartman version has forever changed me.
How about his "Tom Sawyer"?
posted by kirkaracha at 7:33 AM on March 30, 2023 [1 favorite]
How about his "Tom Sawyer"?
posted by kirkaracha at 7:33 AM on March 30, 2023 [1 favorite]
Coming late to the conversation, but I wanted to note that Collins gets undeserved bashing for turning Genesis from prog towards pop. If you pay attention to the writing credits starting with And Then There Were Three onward, Banks was clearly the one pushing the group to a sleeker, more pop-ish writing style. Yes, Collins hit it big with pop with his solo projects, but the band had already pointed the way.
One thing I like about Genesis's evolution is that, even with Invisible Touch, they're still putting out epyllions like "Tonight, Tonight, Tonight," -- honestly, I think that's as good as the two parts of "Home by the Sea."
posted by Quasirandom at 12:18 PM on April 7, 2023
One thing I like about Genesis's evolution is that, even with Invisible Touch, they're still putting out epyllions like "Tonight, Tonight, Tonight," -- honestly, I think that's as good as the two parts of "Home by the Sea."
posted by Quasirandom at 12:18 PM on April 7, 2023
I will trot in, mostly just to say, probably not for the first time, that Close to the Edge saved my life in high school, and I'll never not love the album for that.
Genesis changed drastically when Steve Hackett left; I at least never listened to them again. And by then it was 1980 and I heard Making Plans for Nigel, and then the Police's Walking On the Moon, and it was a whole new era.
posted by jokeefe at 6:46 PM on April 19, 2023 [1 favorite]
Genesis changed drastically when Steve Hackett left; I at least never listened to them again. And by then it was 1980 and I heard Making Plans for Nigel, and then the Police's Walking On the Moon, and it was a whole new era.
posted by jokeefe at 6:46 PM on April 19, 2023 [1 favorite]
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I'm certain I've left things out. This is a subject that I find fascinating -- these bands who were on the outside were suddenly on top of the charts. The 80s were a weird time.
posted by hippybear at 8:46 PM on March 28, 2023 [14 favorites]