How Christian is Christian Nationalism?
April 2, 2023 12:46 AM Subscribe
By Kelefa Sanneh in the April 3 New Yorker. Here's one key paragraph: "For many people, Gorski and Perry argue, 'Christian' refers less to theology than to heritage. Drawing on their own survey, they found that more than a fifth of respondents who wanted the government to declare the US a 'Christian nation' also described themselves as 'secular,' or an adherent of a non-Christian faith. Paradoxically, so did more than fifteen per cent of self-identified Christians. This last data point might be a sign that 'Christian' is starting to become something more like 'Jewish': an ancestral identity that you can keep, even if you don't keep the faith."
Why not just say "white" and have done with it?
posted by non canadian guy at 3:07 AM on April 2, 2023 [51 favorites]
posted by non canadian guy at 3:07 AM on April 2, 2023 [51 favorites]
Buried lede, tho': it's also tribal and casts all other affiliations as tribal, fixed and fundamental and not than flexible, contextual and role-based.
Say, when I as a patriarch get my mistress pregnant and send her out-of-state for an abortion, that's a forgiveable mistake and I gain a learning experience and redemption story-arc, but people who are heathens don't get any forgiveness. I might be ashamed of my behaviour, but the eternal clean-slate I get from this sociopathic forgiveness means nobody gets to shame me.
posted by k3ninho at 3:57 AM on April 2, 2023 [37 favorites]
Say, when I as a patriarch get my mistress pregnant and send her out-of-state for an abortion, that's a forgiveable mistake and I gain a learning experience and redemption story-arc, but people who are heathens don't get any forgiveness. I might be ashamed of my behaviour, but the eternal clean-slate I get from this sociopathic forgiveness means nobody gets to shame me.
posted by k3ninho at 3:57 AM on April 2, 2023 [37 favorites]
Church attendance has been declining for decades
That's beside the point though, isn't it? The thrust of the article is that church attendance (or even religious belief) is no longer what defines the group. If that's true, it can continue to grow quite independently of whether its members are going to church or not.
posted by Paul Slade at 3:58 AM on April 2, 2023 [47 favorites]
That's beside the point though, isn't it? The thrust of the article is that church attendance (or even religious belief) is no longer what defines the group. If that's true, it can continue to grow quite independently of whether its members are going to church or not.
posted by Paul Slade at 3:58 AM on April 2, 2023 [47 favorites]
"Why not just say "white" and have done with it?"
From the article: "In the earlier book, Whitehead and Perry reported that Black Americans were in fact more likely than any other racial group to support Christian nationalism."
The fascinating thing about Christian Nationalism is how thoroughly they repudiate Christ. I can understand them repudiating the Old Testament - but the particular things that Christ taught are especially culturally foreign to this group. The primary teachings that Christ repeatedly pushes - don't trust your organized religion especially the greedy or punitive leaders, welcome strangers and foreigners, and don't pursue riches - are all antithetical to organized evangelical religions.
I think the fact that church attendance has been declining for decades is part of the point - it it hadn't been declining their theology wouldn't be so incredibly bad. They are remembering what it felt like to be part of a saved community and not the tenets of the faith.
posted by Jane the Brown at 4:04 AM on April 2, 2023 [74 favorites]
From the article: "In the earlier book, Whitehead and Perry reported that Black Americans were in fact more likely than any other racial group to support Christian nationalism."
The fascinating thing about Christian Nationalism is how thoroughly they repudiate Christ. I can understand them repudiating the Old Testament - but the particular things that Christ taught are especially culturally foreign to this group. The primary teachings that Christ repeatedly pushes - don't trust your organized religion especially the greedy or punitive leaders, welcome strangers and foreigners, and don't pursue riches - are all antithetical to organized evangelical religions.
I think the fact that church attendance has been declining for decades is part of the point - it it hadn't been declining their theology wouldn't be so incredibly bad. They are remembering what it felt like to be part of a saved community and not the tenets of the faith.
posted by Jane the Brown at 4:04 AM on April 2, 2023 [74 favorites]
I can understand them repudiating the Old Testament...
But do they really? My experience has been that random OT verses have always been the go-to when pushed to defend/justify their bigotries and hate. I agree that they utterly ignore the actual teachings of Christ.
posted by Thorzdad at 4:54 AM on April 2, 2023 [18 favorites]
But do they really? My experience has been that random OT verses have always been the go-to when pushed to defend/justify their bigotries and hate. I agree that they utterly ignore the actual teachings of Christ.
posted by Thorzdad at 4:54 AM on April 2, 2023 [18 favorites]
I wonder what would happen if we started calling Christian Nationalists "Paulines"? Because the vibe they're riding is 100% from the shit that the Apostle Paul said and did following the Ascension.
Quick backstory for the non-Christians: so Jesus rose from the dead, hung around three days in a reunion with his original 12 apostles, and then raptured Himself up to heaven, telling his apostles to go tell everyone about Him and spread the good word. The first half of the New Testament are the four gospels about Jesus - the second half is all about the stuff the various apostles did after that, going around the Levant and into other countries and starting churches.
There are also a bunch of copies of letters they wrote to these churches where they were basically troubleshooting the kinds of issues that come up when you try to graft a Jewish-based faith formed in the Levant onto Greco-Roman or Persian culture. A whole lot of those letters were written by a guy named Paul - who wasn't one of the OG apostles, he was a Roman citizen who'd actually been persecuting Christians until one day he had a vision of Jesus telling him to knock it off. Paul got blown away and converted to Christianity himself - and he went TOTALLY over the top with the zeal. He did have a knack for figuring out how to promote Christianity - early on His followers were leaning more into Jewish tradition, going so far as to require any new male converts to get circumcised (among other things). But Paul was able to persuade the early church that "yo, let's maybe not go quite so heavy into the Jewish stuff, let's make it about Jesus Himself and the stuff He said," and that helped the early church get a foothold faster because it had more of an appeal to outsiders ("yay, I get to keep my foreskin and still get eternal life! I'm in!").
So that part was good for the early church - but Paul also very likely had some unexamined personal issues with women and slaves and people of other races, and that stuff started to bleed into the stuff he was saying when he was writing those letters of advice to the other early churches; and this was all stuff that didn't necessarily align with what Jesus actually said. If there's something in the New Testament that makes you go "Hmmm....." it's probably something Paul actually said.
And a lot of the stuff Christian Nationalists point to to justify their actions are actually things Paul said. So...Paulines.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 5:05 AM on April 2, 2023 [67 favorites]
Quick backstory for the non-Christians: so Jesus rose from the dead, hung around three days in a reunion with his original 12 apostles, and then raptured Himself up to heaven, telling his apostles to go tell everyone about Him and spread the good word. The first half of the New Testament are the four gospels about Jesus - the second half is all about the stuff the various apostles did after that, going around the Levant and into other countries and starting churches.
There are also a bunch of copies of letters they wrote to these churches where they were basically troubleshooting the kinds of issues that come up when you try to graft a Jewish-based faith formed in the Levant onto Greco-Roman or Persian culture. A whole lot of those letters were written by a guy named Paul - who wasn't one of the OG apostles, he was a Roman citizen who'd actually been persecuting Christians until one day he had a vision of Jesus telling him to knock it off. Paul got blown away and converted to Christianity himself - and he went TOTALLY over the top with the zeal. He did have a knack for figuring out how to promote Christianity - early on His followers were leaning more into Jewish tradition, going so far as to require any new male converts to get circumcised (among other things). But Paul was able to persuade the early church that "yo, let's maybe not go quite so heavy into the Jewish stuff, let's make it about Jesus Himself and the stuff He said," and that helped the early church get a foothold faster because it had more of an appeal to outsiders ("yay, I get to keep my foreskin and still get eternal life! I'm in!").
So that part was good for the early church - but Paul also very likely had some unexamined personal issues with women and slaves and people of other races, and that stuff started to bleed into the stuff he was saying when he was writing those letters of advice to the other early churches; and this was all stuff that didn't necessarily align with what Jesus actually said. If there's something in the New Testament that makes you go "Hmmm....." it's probably something Paul actually said.
And a lot of the stuff Christian Nationalists point to to justify their actions are actually things Paul said. So...Paulines.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 5:05 AM on April 2, 2023 [67 favorites]
Gentle reminder that the "Old Testament God is mean and New Testament God is loving" stuff is supercessionist antisemitism.
posted by hydropsyche at 5:08 AM on April 2, 2023 [45 favorites]
posted by hydropsyche at 5:08 AM on April 2, 2023 [45 favorites]
The less Christianity takes heed of its namesake's principles, the more it becomes a dangerous and violent cult. This has long been an alarming part of US culture, but it feels like it's coming to a head these days.
posted by abucci at 5:23 AM on April 2, 2023 [8 favorites]
posted by abucci at 5:23 AM on April 2, 2023 [8 favorites]
Also a reminder that the New Testament only makes up like 20% of the entirety of the Bible.
posted by donut_princess at 5:28 AM on April 2, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by donut_princess at 5:28 AM on April 2, 2023 [4 favorites]
Suggestion: "Paulist" rather than "Pauline". "Pauline" is already a woman's name. "Paulist" is parallel with Islamist.
posted by Nancy Lebovitz at 5:30 AM on April 2, 2023 [18 favorites]
posted by Nancy Lebovitz at 5:30 AM on April 2, 2023 [18 favorites]
The Paul stuff is even more complicated, because a lot of the later letters attributed to Paul weren't actually written by him (and none of the gospels were written by the people whose names are on them). Even though the letters come after the gospels, they were written first. Early Christians were very eschatalogical: they were expecting the end of the world to come any day. The advice in early letters reflects this: don't get married, don't make long-term plans, prepare for the end of days. As it became clearer over the years that this was not going to happen, the whole focus of the religion had to shift. So you get early words about how in Christ there is no male or female and later words about how women should submit to their husbands. Even a cursory look proves the Bible to be self-contradictory, but the deeper you dig, the messier it gets (in the earliest gospel, for example, there was no mention of Jesus's resurrection; someone had to add it in later to make it better line up with the others).
posted by rikschell at 5:46 AM on April 2, 2023 [22 favorites]
posted by rikschell at 5:46 AM on April 2, 2023 [22 favorites]
Suggestion: "Paulist" rather than "Pauline".
THANK YOU - I knew there was an existing term but couldn't remember it. "Paulist" is what I meant!
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 5:46 AM on April 2, 2023 [9 favorites]
THANK YOU - I knew there was an existing term but couldn't remember it. "Paulist" is what I meant!
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 5:46 AM on April 2, 2023 [9 favorites]
“I think that, spitballing, seventy per cent of Christian nationalists don’t know that they’re Christian nationalists,” he said. “They’re just, like, ‘This is normal Christianity, from the time of Jesus.’ ”
I'm reminded of a comedy/news show that did an interview with a panel of evangelicals who were lobbying for a law that foreign laws would not be allowed to influence the laws of the United States -- like courts couldn't draw on precedents from other countries or cite United Nations declarations or stuff like that. And the interviewer says "What should the law be based on?" and they were like "the ten commandments and the bible" and the interviewer, of course, points out that the ten commandments are not American. And the panel just kind of looks confused and he points out "They're from Israel." And then they get it and they basically say "American law shouldn't be based on anything foreign EXCEPT the bible."
Also then I'm reminded of someone I read complaining about new baby names used by black people and how they should just use "American names like Mary and Elizabeth and Anna" and I was thinking "LaToya is an American name. Mary, Elizabeth and Anna are Hebrew names."
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 5:59 AM on April 2, 2023 [65 favorites]
I'm reminded of a comedy/news show that did an interview with a panel of evangelicals who were lobbying for a law that foreign laws would not be allowed to influence the laws of the United States -- like courts couldn't draw on precedents from other countries or cite United Nations declarations or stuff like that. And the interviewer says "What should the law be based on?" and they were like "the ten commandments and the bible" and the interviewer, of course, points out that the ten commandments are not American. And the panel just kind of looks confused and he points out "They're from Israel." And then they get it and they basically say "American law shouldn't be based on anything foreign EXCEPT the bible."
Also then I'm reminded of someone I read complaining about new baby names used by black people and how they should just use "American names like Mary and Elizabeth and Anna" and I was thinking "LaToya is an American name. Mary, Elizabeth and Anna are Hebrew names."
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 5:59 AM on April 2, 2023 [65 favorites]
‘This is normal Christianity, from the time of Jesus.’
They don’t want to really render anything unto Caesar, though.
posted by Selena777 at 6:28 AM on April 2, 2023 [16 favorites]
They don’t want to really render anything unto Caesar, though.
posted by Selena777 at 6:28 AM on April 2, 2023 [16 favorites]
And a lot of the stuff Christian Nationalists point to to justify their actions are actually things Paul said. So...Paulines.
Jesus: "Here's a miracle where I take a basket of fish and bread and feed thousands who were hungry."
Paul: "You don't work, you don't eat."
"Evangelicals": "Who's to say who's correct? 🤷"
posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock at 6:52 AM on April 2, 2023 [12 favorites]
Jesus: "Here's a miracle where I take a basket of fish and bread and feed thousands who were hungry."
Paul: "You don't work, you don't eat."
"Evangelicals": "Who's to say who's correct? 🤷"
posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock at 6:52 AM on April 2, 2023 [12 favorites]
Why not just say "white" and have done with it?
Because there is class tied into it too. This is a populist trend aimed at coalescing the descendants of working class whites into a movement that can serve the coastal elite or fight against it, and turn on a dime regarding this question.
So Episcopalians and Presbyterians are not quite in.
posted by ocschwar at 6:53 AM on April 2, 2023 [7 favorites]
Because there is class tied into it too. This is a populist trend aimed at coalescing the descendants of working class whites into a movement that can serve the coastal elite or fight against it, and turn on a dime regarding this question.
So Episcopalians and Presbyterians are not quite in.
posted by ocschwar at 6:53 AM on April 2, 2023 [7 favorites]
Also, Schrödinger's evangelical. Insists on the Law of Moses up until sucking down that bacon double cheeseburger then it's just strange, outdated, Jewish laws.
posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock at 6:53 AM on April 2, 2023 [20 favorites]
posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock at 6:53 AM on April 2, 2023 [20 favorites]
Question--do you really need to go to church to be a Christian? I'm sure plenty of people are Christian by evangelical definition--accept Jesus as Lord and Savior, read the Bible, hold certain beliefs on personal conduct and act accordingly--but don't feel like they need to go to a physical church and have someone tell them what to do. American Protestantism is all about individual grace and the idea that you have a personal relationship with God, after all. Why commit yourself to a pastor and his strictures when the path is open to you without one?
posted by kingdead at 6:54 AM on April 2, 2023 [7 favorites]
posted by kingdead at 6:54 AM on April 2, 2023 [7 favorites]
With apologies to anyone carrying the name, I am afraid ‘pauline’ is the already well-established adjective for all things Paul-related. Replacing it with a pejorative ‘paulist’ might not at all be a good idea, given that, as hydropsyche points out above, the rather uncharitable picture of Paul sketched in this thread, though anti-christian in its current form, consists mostly of an uncritical re-telling of some of the nastiest christian anti-semitic ideas. Discovering that Paul was, in fact, a jewish guy with a jewish faith has been an important (and on-going) part of exorcising anti-semitic dogma from the (lutheran,* mostly,† and evangelical‡) church.
* Though, before the story shifts from ‘Paul spoiled everything’ to ‘Luther spoiled everything’, I feel obliged to point out that Luther’s idea of opposition between Law and Gospel was rather more nuanced than its reception among many of his followers.
† Reformed christianity had the luck of never having had so bad a negative view of the hebrew bible to start with, though it was not free from supercessionalism either. The latter found expression most strongly in the ‘christian-historical’ movement that substituted the modern (christian) nation-state for the biblical people of Israël (and which, incidentally, is the topic of the linked article).
‡ I.e, American. Like much of anglophone theological scholarship, large parts of the New Perspective consists of a re-invention of thought expressed several generations earlier in languages inaccessible to the monophonically english. For example, one parallel re-evaluation of the relation between ‘old’ and ‘new’ testaments starts with Isaäc da Costa and Hermann Kohlbrugge in the early 19th century and continues into the 20th with the disciples of Juda Palache. A modern American thinking along similar lines would be Walter Brueggemann.
posted by trotz dem alten drachen at 7:00 AM on April 2, 2023 [24 favorites]
* Though, before the story shifts from ‘Paul spoiled everything’ to ‘Luther spoiled everything’, I feel obliged to point out that Luther’s idea of opposition between Law and Gospel was rather more nuanced than its reception among many of his followers.
† Reformed christianity had the luck of never having had so bad a negative view of the hebrew bible to start with, though it was not free from supercessionalism either. The latter found expression most strongly in the ‘christian-historical’ movement that substituted the modern (christian) nation-state for the biblical people of Israël (and which, incidentally, is the topic of the linked article).
‡ I.e, American. Like much of anglophone theological scholarship, large parts of the New Perspective consists of a re-invention of thought expressed several generations earlier in languages inaccessible to the monophonically english. For example, one parallel re-evaluation of the relation between ‘old’ and ‘new’ testaments starts with Isaäc da Costa and Hermann Kohlbrugge in the early 19th century and continues into the 20th with the disciples of Juda Palache. A modern American thinking along similar lines would be Walter Brueggemann.
posted by trotz dem alten drachen at 7:00 AM on April 2, 2023 [24 favorites]
read the Bible
Scroll to the bottom and click 'I accept'. The bible is a tough read, most people don't even try.
posted by adept256 at 7:03 AM on April 2, 2023 [26 favorites]
Scroll to the bottom and click 'I accept'. The bible is a tough read, most people don't even try.
posted by adept256 at 7:03 AM on April 2, 2023 [26 favorites]
Good to see that what's really important here is deciding that the Christian Nationalists may not be your favorite sect of Christianity and thus absolving yourself from supporting the hostile takeover of our govt. by your Christian Hegemony.
Christians: bring your house in order. This is your job, literally nobody else can do it. You can't fucking No True Scotsman your way out of your culpability here.
posted by SaltySalticid at 7:21 AM on April 2, 2023 [26 favorites]
Christians: bring your house in order. This is your job, literally nobody else can do it. You can't fucking No True Scotsman your way out of your culpability here.
posted by SaltySalticid at 7:21 AM on April 2, 2023 [26 favorites]
The things being said and promoted at mega churches aren’t exactly Christian either
posted by Jon_Evil at 7:22 AM on April 2, 2023 [7 favorites]
posted by Jon_Evil at 7:22 AM on April 2, 2023 [7 favorites]
"In the earlier book, Whitehead and Perry reported that Black Americans were in fact more likely than any other racial group to support Christian nationalism."
I am curious about what this means. These people are possibly still democrats but there doesn't appear to be a movement like this on the left. When it comes to the infrastructure, organizations and texts of Christian nationalism there aren't a lot of black voices.
posted by Selena777 at 7:26 AM on April 2, 2023 [5 favorites]
I am curious about what this means. These people are possibly still democrats but there doesn't appear to be a movement like this on the left. When it comes to the infrastructure, organizations and texts of Christian nationalism there aren't a lot of black voices.
posted by Selena777 at 7:26 AM on April 2, 2023 [5 favorites]
I'm sure plenty of people are Christian by evangelical definition--accept Jesus as Lord and Savior, read the Bible, hold certain beliefs on personal conduct and act accordingly--but don't feel like they need to go to a physical church and have someone tell them what to do.
True, but I think this article is pointing at something larger than just church attendance - it's people whose self-identity as Christians seems to begin and end with certain beliefs about abortion and sexuality, and that's as far as it goes. People who don't read the Bible, people who don't engage with theological thought at any level, people who say "faith not works" to shut down the discussion when they're asked to consider all the verses in the Bible about justice for the poor, people who mostly want a moral justification for continuing to vote for Republicans and can point to half a dozen Bible verses that give them that justification - and that is the beginning and end of any genuine faith commitment on their part.
I feel like I'm being enormously uncharitable here, and I want to say that I don't mean all Christians or even all conservative Evangelicals. But so many Evangelicals supported Trump ferociously, not with a feeling of "Well, look, he's obviously done wrong in his personal life but at least he'll nominate pro-life people to the Supreme Court" but with a feeling of near-adulation, and ... a lot of those people are the people who are getting their religious convictions not from the Bible, not from their church, but mostly from Fox News.
posted by Jeanne at 7:33 AM on April 2, 2023 [29 favorites]
True, but I think this article is pointing at something larger than just church attendance - it's people whose self-identity as Christians seems to begin and end with certain beliefs about abortion and sexuality, and that's as far as it goes. People who don't read the Bible, people who don't engage with theological thought at any level, people who say "faith not works" to shut down the discussion when they're asked to consider all the verses in the Bible about justice for the poor, people who mostly want a moral justification for continuing to vote for Republicans and can point to half a dozen Bible verses that give them that justification - and that is the beginning and end of any genuine faith commitment on their part.
I feel like I'm being enormously uncharitable here, and I want to say that I don't mean all Christians or even all conservative Evangelicals. But so many Evangelicals supported Trump ferociously, not with a feeling of "Well, look, he's obviously done wrong in his personal life but at least he'll nominate pro-life people to the Supreme Court" but with a feeling of near-adulation, and ... a lot of those people are the people who are getting their religious convictions not from the Bible, not from their church, but mostly from Fox News.
posted by Jeanne at 7:33 AM on April 2, 2023 [29 favorites]
(Also: The Religion of American Greatness: What's Wrong With American Nationalism is a book that's interesting about this, in that it's written from a Christian and Evangelical perspective that I disagree with in many ways but is very critical of the marriage of Christianity with American nationalism.)
posted by Jeanne at 7:35 AM on April 2, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by Jeanne at 7:35 AM on April 2, 2023 [3 favorites]
The words disciple, follower, adherent, believer carry more meaning than any name associated with it, because they are getting instructions in real time from a social network. The integrity of the name association is only relevant to someone who shopped around for the best deal, from public relations or advertising, but not to anyone who was parent indoctrinated. When we assume that someone's declared moral chain of command comes from a book they never read, it says more about our own secular assumptions about book worshiping, rather than it functioning as a placeholder against all other sources. It would be like expecting a basketball team named after wolverines to be able to tell you anything about wolverines.
posted by Brian B. at 7:47 AM on April 2, 2023 [6 favorites]
posted by Brian B. at 7:47 AM on April 2, 2023 [6 favorites]
it's people whose self-identity as Christians seems to begin and end with certain beliefs about abortion and sexuality, and that's as far as it goes. People who don't read the Bible, people who don't engage with theological thought at any level, people who say "faith not works" to shut down the discussion when they're asked to consider all the verses in the Bible about justice for the poor, people who mostly want a moral justification for continuing to vote for Republicans and can point to half a dozen Bible verses that give them that justification - and that is the beginning and end of any genuine faith commitment on their part.
I used to work with a bunch of people just like this. As far as I could tell they weren't religious in any meaningful or practice sense of the word, but it was a central point of identity and based around "culture war" issues entirely.
This last data point might be a sign that 'Christian' is starting to become something more like 'Jewish': an ancestral identity that you can keep, even if you don't keep the faith.
This makes a lot of sense to me and I can actually relate to it somewhat. I'm not in any way religious (more low key athiest/agnostic, it all just isn't that important to me) but I certainly grew up in a practicing christian family and where both sides of the family trees show no signs of other religions based on the available records. Additionally, I grew up in places where the vast majority of people were of christian heritage, with only a tiny number of people with histories in other faiths. So I would call myself culturally christian, regardless of my personal disbelief. and also recognizing the difference in my meaning of this identity and what is talked about in the article.
posted by Dip Flash at 7:51 AM on April 2, 2023 [7 favorites]
I used to work with a bunch of people just like this. As far as I could tell they weren't religious in any meaningful or practice sense of the word, but it was a central point of identity and based around "culture war" issues entirely.
This last data point might be a sign that 'Christian' is starting to become something more like 'Jewish': an ancestral identity that you can keep, even if you don't keep the faith.
This makes a lot of sense to me and I can actually relate to it somewhat. I'm not in any way religious (more low key athiest/agnostic, it all just isn't that important to me) but I certainly grew up in a practicing christian family and where both sides of the family trees show no signs of other religions based on the available records. Additionally, I grew up in places where the vast majority of people were of christian heritage, with only a tiny number of people with histories in other faiths. So I would call myself culturally christian, regardless of my personal disbelief. and also recognizing the difference in my meaning of this identity and what is talked about in the article.
posted by Dip Flash at 7:51 AM on April 2, 2023 [7 favorites]
This last data point might be a sign that 'Christian' is starting to become something more like 'Jewish': an ancestral identity that you can keep, even if you don't keep the faith.
This makes me twitch-- there really is such a thing as culturally Christian, culturally Catholic or any number of other identities and we could probably use a better vocabulary for talking about it.
However, there's a difference between "we like us" or possibly "we are profoundly ambivalent in a way outsiders could never understant" as compared to "we should be in charge".
posted by Nancy Lebovitz at 8:05 AM on April 2, 2023 [9 favorites]
This makes me twitch-- there really is such a thing as culturally Christian, culturally Catholic or any number of other identities and we could probably use a better vocabulary for talking about it.
However, there's a difference between "we like us" or possibly "we are profoundly ambivalent in a way outsiders could never understant" as compared to "we should be in charge".
posted by Nancy Lebovitz at 8:05 AM on April 2, 2023 [9 favorites]
> The fascinating thing about Christian Nationalism is how thoroughly they repudiate Christ.
an excerpt from LooseFilter earlier (in the Christian Nationalist takeover FPP):
an excerpt from LooseFilter earlier (in the Christian Nationalist takeover FPP):
As with the fictional Leviticans of Ameristan, who seem to be nascent in real life:posted by kliuless at 8:08 AM on April 2, 2023 [8 favorites]So-called Christianity, as it existed up until recently, is based on a big lie . . . . The most successful conspiracy of all time. And it was all summed up in the symbolism of the cross. Every cross you see on a mainstream church, or worn as jewelry, or on a rosary or what have you, is another repetition of that lie. . . . That Jesus was crucified. . . . That the Son of God, the most powerful incarnate being in the history of the universe, allowed Himself to be scourged and humiliated and taken out in the most disgraceful way you can imagine. . . .—Neal Stephenson, Fall: or, Dodge in Hell (2019)
The church that was built on the lie of the Crucifixion . . . had two basic tenets. One was the lovey-dovey Jesus who went around being nice to people—basically, just the kind of behavior you would expect from the kind of beta who would allow himself to be spat on, to be nailed to a piece of wood. The second was this notion that the Old Testament no longer counted for anything, that the laws laid down in Leviticus were part of an old covenant that could simply be ignored after, and because, he was nailed up on that cross. We have exposed all that as garbage. Nonsense. A conspiracy by the elites to keep people meek and passive. The only crosses you’ll see in our church are on fire, and the symbolism of that has nothing to do with the KKK. It means we reject the false church that was built upon the myth of the Crucifixion.”
“So, to be clear, all Christianity for the last two thousand years—Catholic, Protestant, Orthodox, evangelical—is just flat-out wrong,” Phil said. “That is correct.” “The four gospels—” Ted shook his head. “That’s the first thing the church did, was enshrine those gospels. Telling the story they wanted to tell. About the meek liberal Jesus who gave food away to poor people and healed the sick and so on. . . . The conspiracy of the church was powerful. They staged a fake Reformation to get people to believe that reform was possible. All a show. Orchestrated from the Vatican.
Apologies for bringing out profile page links, but it's been nearly a decade since I've posted them in a comment in full.
"False Witnesses"
posted by ob1quixote at 8:14 AM on April 2, 2023 [18 favorites]
"False Witnesses"
Confronted with the runaway success of such an absurd and over-the-top claim, the reflexive response is to think something like, “Wow, a lot of people really are gullible and stupid.” But again — and this is my point here — this has nothing to do with either stupidity or gullibility. The widespread promotion and pretend-acceptance of this rumor cannot be adequately explained by stupidity. It can only be attributed to malice."False Witnesses 2"
This story, as with the many others like it, is spread maliciously. The people spreading it are not fools. They are not suffering from a mental defect, but from a moral one. They have chosen to bear false witness, and they do so knowingly.
That's as pure a distillation as you will ever find of the nightmares and bogeymen that terrify the religious right, complete with the attempt to justify those fears because those people are really Satan-worshipping baby-killers."They Need Help"
Perhaps the deepest fear lurking in that e-mail has to do with the persecution complex of American evangelicals we've often discussed here before. The fear here is not that Christians in America might face persecution, but rather the fear of what it might mean that they don't. The supposed effort to prove that there are ENOUGH CHRISTIANS … TO MAKE A DIFFERENCE is an expression of the fear — or the recognition — that the people sending and resending this e-mail are not CHRISTIAN ENOUGH TO MAKE A DIFFERENCE. They're shouting because they're frightened — truly frightened of the truth about themselves, which is always far more frightening than any fear of what might be lurking outside ourselves in the dark.
They need help. They need, frankly, liberation.Cf. “Christians in the Hand of an Angry God,” quin, MetaFilter, 15 September 2010
The weird rumor about Target or the even weirder rumor about P&G are somewhat trivial examples of this, but basing your life on things that aren't true, that aren't real, is a kind of bondage. In simpler, more pragmatic terms: Unreality doesn't work. It is unsustainable. It is a recipe for unhappiness.
The reason I've been writing about/obsessing over things like the P&G rumor or the usefulness of Snopes is that I'm trying to figure out how to liberate the captives of unreality.
posted by ob1quixote at 8:14 AM on April 2, 2023 [18 favorites]
Re Black Christian nationalism, it seems to me that if you don't have a reference point for this you are missing a pretty big part of the political conversation in many Black communities.
But in terms of what currently goes by the name of "Christian nationalism", I'd venture that a principal distinction is that one group is using this to mean "the country should be run according to the principles of [a particular traditional reading of] the Bible", and the other group is just using it to mean "white supremacy". Which is why you don't see a lot of crossover between these groups (although there has been some, I think).
That said, it's not my story to tell and it's difficult to imagine a MetaFilter in which a conversation on this topic would go well.
posted by Not A Thing at 8:39 AM on April 2, 2023 [18 favorites]
But in terms of what currently goes by the name of "Christian nationalism", I'd venture that a principal distinction is that one group is using this to mean "the country should be run according to the principles of [a particular traditional reading of] the Bible", and the other group is just using it to mean "white supremacy". Which is why you don't see a lot of crossover between these groups (although there has been some, I think).
That said, it's not my story to tell and it's difficult to imagine a MetaFilter in which a conversation on this topic would go well.
posted by Not A Thing at 8:39 AM on April 2, 2023 [18 favorites]
Evangelicals have made HUGE colonization encroachments into developing countries.
There are scenes in marjoe documenting this.
kidnapped for christ describes the experience of an American gay teen prevented from leaving a "conversion" program set up by a US based church in the Dominican Republic after he turned 18.
There's another doc showing how corrupt politicians in African countries sell what had been communal land to evangelical cults but I can't remember the name of it
Because my father's Salvadoran caregiver tried to lovebomb me into converting right after she had witnessed me praying with my parents' rabbi, my biological excuse for a mother refused to let me be with him during the last hours of his life.
This woman tried to claim that telling me "you must accept Jesus into your heart"--which I understand is the main tenet of Christianity--wasn't disrespecting my faith.
I reported E to the caregiver agency but they told me that because my mother was the one to hire her chupahija had the final say as to what happened to her....so I suppose she'll get a warning, ignore it and continue to inflict her crap on the vulnerable.
posted by brujita at 8:40 AM on April 2, 2023 [6 favorites]
There are scenes in marjoe documenting this.
kidnapped for christ describes the experience of an American gay teen prevented from leaving a "conversion" program set up by a US based church in the Dominican Republic after he turned 18.
There's another doc showing how corrupt politicians in African countries sell what had been communal land to evangelical cults but I can't remember the name of it
Because my father's Salvadoran caregiver tried to lovebomb me into converting right after she had witnessed me praying with my parents' rabbi, my biological excuse for a mother refused to let me be with him during the last hours of his life.
This woman tried to claim that telling me "you must accept Jesus into your heart"--which I understand is the main tenet of Christianity--wasn't disrespecting my faith.
I reported E to the caregiver agency but they told me that because my mother was the one to hire her chupahija had the final say as to what happened to her....so I suppose she'll get a warning, ignore it and continue to inflict her crap on the vulnerable.
posted by brujita at 8:40 AM on April 2, 2023 [6 favorites]
I used to work with a bunch of people just like this. As far as I could tell they weren't religious in any meaningful or practice sense of the word, but it was a central point of identity and based around "culture war" issues entirely.
That IS the practice, though. You have some belief of individual religious salvation through Jesus and you have certain ideas about the correct sexual and economic ordering of the world that are based off an interpretation of the Bible. That's it. You don't have to do anything else to define as an American Christian.
posted by kingdead at 8:47 AM on April 2, 2023 [3 favorites]
That IS the practice, though. You have some belief of individual religious salvation through Jesus and you have certain ideas about the correct sexual and economic ordering of the world that are based off an interpretation of the Bible. That's it. You don't have to do anything else to define as an American Christian.
posted by kingdead at 8:47 AM on April 2, 2023 [3 favorites]
‘This is normal Christianity, from the time of Jesus.’
Yeah, no.
This last data point might be a sign that 'Christian' is starting to become something more like 'Jewish'
Yeah, no.
posted by tzikeh at 8:57 AM on April 2, 2023 [3 favorites]
Yeah, no.
This last data point might be a sign that 'Christian' is starting to become something more like 'Jewish'
Yeah, no.
posted by tzikeh at 8:57 AM on April 2, 2023 [3 favorites]
From the article: "In the earlier book, Whitehead and Perry reported that Black Americans were in fact more likely than any other racial group to support Christian nationalism."
I think it is pretty clear from the article that Christian nationalism on the national scale is a white/western chauvinist phenomenon. The mention of Black Christian nationalism is almost an aside. Christian nationalism is an identity movement and encompasses a lot more people than just observant Christians (whatever that means), and there are a lot white ones than Black ones, in absolute terms if not in proportion. That's aside from the differences in the character of those movements, mentioned above.
posted by klanawa at 9:45 AM on April 2, 2023 [5 favorites]
I think it is pretty clear from the article that Christian nationalism on the national scale is a white/western chauvinist phenomenon. The mention of Black Christian nationalism is almost an aside. Christian nationalism is an identity movement and encompasses a lot more people than just observant Christians (whatever that means), and there are a lot white ones than Black ones, in absolute terms if not in proportion. That's aside from the differences in the character of those movements, mentioned above.
posted by klanawa at 9:45 AM on April 2, 2023 [5 favorites]
Your Childhood Pet Rock: Also, Schrödinger's evangelical. Insists on the Law of Moses up until sucking down that bacon double cheeseburger then it's just strange, outdated, Jewish laws.
This comes straight from Paul. I think Galatians 5 might be the purest distillation of the whiplash involved.
First half of the chapter: Free yourself from the slavery of the old Jewish law! Christ's sacrifice redeemed us from all that!
Second half of the chapter: But woah, woah, stop doing sex stuff I don't like! Here's a justification I just made up about "the Spirit" and "the flesh" and "it's obvious" for why you should follow the parts of the law that I want you to follow.
posted by clawsoon at 9:47 AM on April 2, 2023 [7 favorites]
This comes straight from Paul. I think Galatians 5 might be the purest distillation of the whiplash involved.
First half of the chapter: Free yourself from the slavery of the old Jewish law! Christ's sacrifice redeemed us from all that!
Second half of the chapter: But woah, woah, stop doing sex stuff I don't like! Here's a justification I just made up about "the Spirit" and "the flesh" and "it's obvious" for why you should follow the parts of the law that I want you to follow.
posted by clawsoon at 9:47 AM on April 2, 2023 [7 favorites]
Jane the Brown: I think the fact that church attendance has been declining for decades is part of the point.
Right: if they were ever in a church, listening to a preacher, they might hear things like "Love your neighbor as yourself" or "Thou shall not kill" or "What you do for the least of my brothers, you did for me."
Gaaaaaah, I hate them all so much for their hypocrisy.
posted by wenestvedt at 9:48 AM on April 2, 2023 [4 favorites]
Right: if they were ever in a church, listening to a preacher, they might hear things like "Love your neighbor as yourself" or "Thou shall not kill" or "What you do for the least of my brothers, you did for me."
Gaaaaaah, I hate them all so much for their hypocrisy.
posted by wenestvedt at 9:48 AM on April 2, 2023 [4 favorites]
Christian Nationalism, and religious liberty, can be taken to mean the conservative traditions of our forefathers, who identified as Christians. Conservative means, generally, racist, homophobic, transphobic, xenophobic, and misogynistic.
posted by coldhotel at 9:53 AM on April 2, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by coldhotel at 9:53 AM on April 2, 2023 [3 favorites]
This last data point might be a sign that 'Christian' is starting to become something more like 'Jewish': an ancestral identity that you can keep, even if you don't keep the faith."
As they supposedly used to say in Northern Ireland “Yes, but are you a Catholic atheist or a Protestant atheist?”
posted by Bloxworth Snout at 10:01 AM on April 2, 2023 [23 favorites]
As they supposedly used to say in Northern Ireland “Yes, but are you a Catholic atheist or a Protestant atheist?”
posted by Bloxworth Snout at 10:01 AM on April 2, 2023 [23 favorites]
I long thought that I was firmly embedded in the Christian tradition, even though I'm no longer a Christian, but then I started realizing how many of the things I like about the culture I live in came from non-Christian or explicitly anti-Christian sources. I made a couple of posts about it, and there are plenty of other non-Christian influences that I could add to those.
I'm culturally Christian as far as excuses for giving presents or dressing up in costumes or hiding chocolate eggs once a year goes. A lot of the other cultural genocide stuff that goes all the way back to Jesus' Great Commission and the sexual genocide stuff that goes back to Paul, I'm not so into.
posted by clawsoon at 10:16 AM on April 2, 2023 [4 favorites]
I'm culturally Christian as far as excuses for giving presents or dressing up in costumes or hiding chocolate eggs once a year goes. A lot of the other cultural genocide stuff that goes all the way back to Jesus' Great Commission and the sexual genocide stuff that goes back to Paul, I'm not so into.
posted by clawsoon at 10:16 AM on April 2, 2023 [4 favorites]
I feel like I'm being enormously uncharitable here
Nope. Although I do wonder sometimes how much of American evangelicalism is simply WWI and WWII generational trauma still echoing through time. My grandfather (WWII veteran) was an angry, violent man who raised angry, violent sons, some of whom grew into nasty right-wing Catholics and some of whom rebelled by becoming truly horrible evangelicals.
Others have put their finger on it above, though--as with so many professed "right wing" values, it's really just a placeholder without substantive meaning, a tribal identification that can be satisfied by any sufficiently appealing figure. It's the same reason you see those bizarre images in which Trump is represented as some sort of figure of "ideal" exaggerated masculinity when he is in fact quite a fat man and a physical coward who dodged military service. When it comes to favored figures, the ideal exists as a mystique to wrap around them, not as a standard to measure them against. For everyone else, though, it's a handy stick to beat them with. "I'm Christian" just means "I'm in-group, and you're not." (Which is funny for those of us raised as Christians by people who were really committed--it's exhausting, God is always telling you to do stuff you really don't want to do!)
posted by praemunire at 10:24 AM on April 2, 2023 [19 favorites]
Nope. Although I do wonder sometimes how much of American evangelicalism is simply WWI and WWII generational trauma still echoing through time. My grandfather (WWII veteran) was an angry, violent man who raised angry, violent sons, some of whom grew into nasty right-wing Catholics and some of whom rebelled by becoming truly horrible evangelicals.
Others have put their finger on it above, though--as with so many professed "right wing" values, it's really just a placeholder without substantive meaning, a tribal identification that can be satisfied by any sufficiently appealing figure. It's the same reason you see those bizarre images in which Trump is represented as some sort of figure of "ideal" exaggerated masculinity when he is in fact quite a fat man and a physical coward who dodged military service. When it comes to favored figures, the ideal exists as a mystique to wrap around them, not as a standard to measure them against. For everyone else, though, it's a handy stick to beat them with. "I'm Christian" just means "I'm in-group, and you're not." (Which is funny for those of us raised as Christians by people who were really committed--it's exhausting, God is always telling you to do stuff you really don't want to do!)
posted by praemunire at 10:24 AM on April 2, 2023 [19 favorites]
I switched self-identification at some point from "Catholic" to "raised Catholic," but that point was well after I had also self-identified an atheist. There's a big cultural component to any religious identity, and it seems perfectly normal not to drop it.
"In the earlier book, Whitehead and Perry reported that Black Americans were in fact more likely than any other racial group to support Christian nationalism."
For the purpose of this article it is really just an artifact of data analysis. Researchers came up with their six questions on the survey that cluster all the White evangelicals near each other, which lets them do more research on this set of similar people. But a cluster (in the statistical sense) of Black Christians are in the same part of the graph because they answered "yes" to the right questions.
They are clearly very different politically than the White evangelicals, but by the rules of the game they are also being called "Christian nationalists". I'm sure the researchers would have preferred that their data had an extra question or two that separated the two groups cleanly, but you go to publish with the data you have, not the data you wish you had.
posted by mark k at 10:38 AM on April 2, 2023 [12 favorites]
"In the earlier book, Whitehead and Perry reported that Black Americans were in fact more likely than any other racial group to support Christian nationalism."
For the purpose of this article it is really just an artifact of data analysis. Researchers came up with their six questions on the survey that cluster all the White evangelicals near each other, which lets them do more research on this set of similar people. But a cluster (in the statistical sense) of Black Christians are in the same part of the graph because they answered "yes" to the right questions.
They are clearly very different politically than the White evangelicals, but by the rules of the game they are also being called "Christian nationalists". I'm sure the researchers would have preferred that their data had an extra question or two that separated the two groups cleanly, but you go to publish with the data you have, not the data you wish you had.
posted by mark k at 10:38 AM on April 2, 2023 [12 favorites]
I think they call themselves Christian because they want the prestige attached to the name without having any further interest.
posted by Nancy Lebovitz at 10:54 AM on April 2, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by Nancy Lebovitz at 10:54 AM on April 2, 2023 [2 favorites]
I grew up in a Post-Ottoman country, where religion as an important tribal identity marker is so baked in that it goes on your ID card and passport. And as such, everyone is "culturally ${RELIGION}" of necessity.
It's really hard to speak about this without having to defend the people you're talking about from accusations of atavism, and defend yourself from people who think your own words are an accusation of atavism.
So I'll just close with "holy, shit, you do not want the United States of America going that route."
posted by ocschwar at 11:40 AM on April 2, 2023 [34 favorites]
It's really hard to speak about this without having to defend the people you're talking about from accusations of atavism, and defend yourself from people who think your own words are an accusation of atavism.
So I'll just close with "holy, shit, you do not want the United States of America going that route."
posted by ocschwar at 11:40 AM on April 2, 2023 [34 favorites]
I still have not found a good explanation of why most of the Bible based stuff pushed by Christian fundamentalists are almost all Old Testament based. I thought the whole point of Christianity was to basically do away with all that stuff and that Jesus provides a new path.
Also, why the picking and choosing? If they insist on still following the rules from the Old Testament; shouldn't they also follow ALL the commandments?
Lastly, the commandments they quote are sometimes mistranslated from the original Hebrew anyway. For example, it is NOT 'Thou shalt not kill'; but 'Thou shalt not Murder'. Completely different. When I point this out, all I get is huffing and puffing.
On a related note: Reggie White (the HOF Lineman), who was an ordained minister, started learning Hebrew because this was pointed out to him.
posted by indianbadger1 at 12:57 PM on April 2, 2023 [3 favorites]
Also, why the picking and choosing? If they insist on still following the rules from the Old Testament; shouldn't they also follow ALL the commandments?
Lastly, the commandments they quote are sometimes mistranslated from the original Hebrew anyway. For example, it is NOT 'Thou shalt not kill'; but 'Thou shalt not Murder'. Completely different. When I point this out, all I get is huffing and puffing.
On a related note: Reggie White (the HOF Lineman), who was an ordained minister, started learning Hebrew because this was pointed out to him.
posted by indianbadger1 at 12:57 PM on April 2, 2023 [3 favorites]
It's not at all surprising that so many of these people aren't part of a congregation.
Last week I was talking to a friend who is an ex Baptist pastor. (This is here in New Zealand but Baptists here are very much influenced by and in dialogue with their fellows in the US, and the conversation was about conspiracy theory and extremism in our local scene where a certain kind of religious affiliation is a vector). My friend noted that when he was starting out years ago, the senior pastor in his church was already resigned to the fact that people weren't getting their Christianity from the pulpit, but from Christian popular media. You don't have to come to church and hear a mediocre sermon, you can listen to a recording of a really good one from somewhere else. "Christian" media has exploded since, the internet makes it extremely accessible, and with one thing and another, you don't need church any more, and the theology transmitted is diluted, "terrible" (quoting my friend, don't ask me, I'm a secular Jew) and just vibes-based.
(friend also recommended Jesus and John Wayne as a book that hit him hard on this topic, I'm just trying to get hold of it now)
posted by i_am_joe's_spleen at 1:18 PM on April 2, 2023 [14 favorites]
Last week I was talking to a friend who is an ex Baptist pastor. (This is here in New Zealand but Baptists here are very much influenced by and in dialogue with their fellows in the US, and the conversation was about conspiracy theory and extremism in our local scene where a certain kind of religious affiliation is a vector). My friend noted that when he was starting out years ago, the senior pastor in his church was already resigned to the fact that people weren't getting their Christianity from the pulpit, but from Christian popular media. You don't have to come to church and hear a mediocre sermon, you can listen to a recording of a really good one from somewhere else. "Christian" media has exploded since, the internet makes it extremely accessible, and with one thing and another, you don't need church any more, and the theology transmitted is diluted, "terrible" (quoting my friend, don't ask me, I'm a secular Jew) and just vibes-based.
(friend also recommended Jesus and John Wayne as a book that hit him hard on this topic, I'm just trying to get hold of it now)
posted by i_am_joe's_spleen at 1:18 PM on April 2, 2023 [14 favorites]
Interestingly, i_am_joe's_spleen, this is exactly what I have heard Imams saying about Muslims who are self-radicalizing.
posted by mumimor at 2:04 PM on April 2, 2023 [17 favorites]
posted by mumimor at 2:04 PM on April 2, 2023 [17 favorites]
I'm sure plenty of people are Christian by evangelical definition--accept Jesus as Lord and Savior, read the Bible, hold certain beliefs on personal conduct and act accordingly--but don't feel like they need to go to a physical church and have someone tell them what to do.I’ll cop to this one, it describes my Catholicism really well. My outlooks and values are completely informed by an Anglo, suburban, Christian environment—in the West, how could they not be—and an awareness that my society’s literature, music, cultural references, right down to idioms and cliches, are all informed by two thousand years of Christianity. As for actual Mass, I attend it when members of my extended family die, the prayers and the readings are always familiar and soothing, and on those occasions I recite the Creed without any problem; I simply can’t accept that Church’s sleazily degraded moral authority in 2023, or its stiff-necked illiberal hypocrisy about sex, and want nothing to do with it institutionally. I’m hardly the only one, in fact I’d say cultural Catholicism is as old as Catholicism. Me and Martin Luther and Henry VIII.
Anyway what’s going on here is not just cultural Christianity—it’s a far nastier variant of nationalism that happens to be, obviously, informed by Christian history.
posted by Fiasco da Gama at 2:24 PM on April 2, 2023 [9 favorites]
i_am_joe's_spleen: the senior pastor in his church was already resigned to the fact that people weren't getting their Christianity from the pulpit, but from Christian popular media
This goes way back, starting with radio preachers in the '30s and really taking off with televangelists in the '80s. Now we've got Youtube and Tiktok.
My vague impression is that, of the three, television promoted respectability imagery the most. The televangelists might've had toxic beliefs, but they had to dress them up in a way that wouldn't get broadcasting licenses pulled.
Radio and social media seem to have produced much rawer, angrier preachers, the kind many people tune into to get mad.
posted by clawsoon at 3:03 PM on April 2, 2023 [7 favorites]
This goes way back, starting with radio preachers in the '30s and really taking off with televangelists in the '80s. Now we've got Youtube and Tiktok.
My vague impression is that, of the three, television promoted respectability imagery the most. The televangelists might've had toxic beliefs, but they had to dress them up in a way that wouldn't get broadcasting licenses pulled.
Radio and social media seem to have produced much rawer, angrier preachers, the kind many people tune into to get mad.
posted by clawsoon at 3:03 PM on April 2, 2023 [7 favorites]
I thought the whole point of Christianity was to basically do away with all that stuff and that Jesus provides a new path.
Also, why the picking and choosing? If they insist on still following the rules from the Old Testament; shouldn't they also follow ALL the commandments?
Denial is not only a river in Egypt.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 4:14 PM on April 2, 2023 [2 favorites]
Also, why the picking and choosing? If they insist on still following the rules from the Old Testament; shouldn't they also follow ALL the commandments?
Denial is not only a river in Egypt.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 4:14 PM on April 2, 2023 [2 favorites]
I think it is pretty clear from the article that Christian nationalism on the national scale is a white/western chauvinist phenomenon. The mention of Black Christian nationalism is almost an aside
This is an issue of definitions which the article does touch on. “Christian nationalism” has been used as an effective euphemism for white nationalism by white nationalist groups, so that association is legitimate. But Black Americans are also undoubtedly one of the most “culturally Christian” groups in the U.S. and so when you define “Christian nationalism” based on a favorable response to ideas like
The federal government should declare the United States a Christian nation.
you’re going to get plenty of people who agree who aren’t white.
posted by atoxyl at 5:01 PM on April 2, 2023 [3 favorites]
This is an issue of definitions which the article does touch on. “Christian nationalism” has been used as an effective euphemism for white nationalism by white nationalist groups, so that association is legitimate. But Black Americans are also undoubtedly one of the most “culturally Christian” groups in the U.S. and so when you define “Christian nationalism” based on a favorable response to ideas like
The federal government should declare the United States a Christian nation.
you’re going to get plenty of people who agree who aren’t white.
posted by atoxyl at 5:01 PM on April 2, 2023 [3 favorites]
I remember an accounting of extremist violence in the US which found that over the past couple of decades, almost all of it has been right-wing. As an aside, they said that the few instances of left-wing violence were only defined as such because they had been done by Black people. If you looked at the actual ideologies of those Black extremists, you'd be hard pressed to separate them from right-wing extremists on any scale except the racial. They were misogynistic, patriarchal, Gilead-dreaming guys with guns.
posted by clawsoon at 5:20 PM on April 2, 2023 [9 favorites]
posted by clawsoon at 5:20 PM on April 2, 2023 [9 favorites]
I still have not found a good explanation of why most of the Bible based stuff pushed by Christian fundamentalists are almost all Old Testament based. I thought the whole point of Christianity was to basically do away with all that stuff and that Jesus provides a new path.
Oh, that's easy. The Old Testament is all about sin and the punishments for sin. The New Testament (well, the gospels, at least) is about sin and its forgiveness. Which sounds more fun for people who want power?
posted by lhauser at 5:48 PM on April 2, 2023 [2 favorites]
Oh, that's easy. The Old Testament is all about sin and the punishments for sin. The New Testament (well, the gospels, at least) is about sin and its forgiveness. Which sounds more fun for people who want power?
posted by lhauser at 5:48 PM on April 2, 2023 [2 favorites]
The Old Testament is all about sin and the punishments for sin. The New Testament (well, the gospels, at least) is about sin and its forgiveness.
As has been pointed out up thread, this way of putting things is (unintentionally I hope) pretty antisemitic. There's plenty in the Hebrew Bible about forgiveness of sin and lots about other sorts of things as well. It's not an accident that reflection on it has given birth to one of the richest traditions of spiritual literature in world history and by dismissing that as being all about sin and punishment recapitulates the simplistic reading of those texts which Evangelicals are all too often guilty of.
Something similar is going on in the Jesus good, Paul bad stuff happening in this thread. Evangelicals like to excerpt the bits of Paul and pseudo-Paul (much of the most problematic stuff about women and slavery was likely written by disciples of Paul using his name long after he was dead) with which they can clobber the people they don't like. There's a lot more going on in Paul's epistles and most of those clobber passages don't really fit with the main lines of Paul's arguments (which are recognizably Jewish in their origin even if he's taking them in a direction outside the mainstream of the Judaism of that time -- Jacob Taubes' The Political Theology of Paul is a good source if you want to learn more about this).
And Paul just isn't a very good source for Christian nationalism because the idea of a Christian Roman Empire was unthinkable at the time he was writing. To the extent that the New Testament has an explicit political theology it is along the lines of 'Try your best not to upset the emperor or your neighbours' (the latter of which is why pseudo-Pauline letters tend to endorse Roman institutions like patriarchal marriage and slavery -- Christians didn't want to look too weird).
More sophisticated arguments for Christian nationalism like the ones mentioned in the article (i.e. Catholic integralism) are drawing on post-biblical political theologies developed in the context of Christendom and Westphalian cuius regio, eius religio approaches to nationalism which emphasize a population's uniform acceptance of a set of transcendant values as a precondition of it functioning as a nation. Ironically, secularization hasn't really done away with this notion of nationalism, as is evident in much of Europe where embracing a sort post-Protestant agnosticism is seen as a precondition for becoming a true member of civil society. If you want to read more about this Talal Asad has plenty of stuff on it.
posted by nangua at 1:33 AM on April 3, 2023 [21 favorites]
As has been pointed out up thread, this way of putting things is (unintentionally I hope) pretty antisemitic. There's plenty in the Hebrew Bible about forgiveness of sin and lots about other sorts of things as well. It's not an accident that reflection on it has given birth to one of the richest traditions of spiritual literature in world history and by dismissing that as being all about sin and punishment recapitulates the simplistic reading of those texts which Evangelicals are all too often guilty of.
Something similar is going on in the Jesus good, Paul bad stuff happening in this thread. Evangelicals like to excerpt the bits of Paul and pseudo-Paul (much of the most problematic stuff about women and slavery was likely written by disciples of Paul using his name long after he was dead) with which they can clobber the people they don't like. There's a lot more going on in Paul's epistles and most of those clobber passages don't really fit with the main lines of Paul's arguments (which are recognizably Jewish in their origin even if he's taking them in a direction outside the mainstream of the Judaism of that time -- Jacob Taubes' The Political Theology of Paul is a good source if you want to learn more about this).
And Paul just isn't a very good source for Christian nationalism because the idea of a Christian Roman Empire was unthinkable at the time he was writing. To the extent that the New Testament has an explicit political theology it is along the lines of 'Try your best not to upset the emperor or your neighbours' (the latter of which is why pseudo-Pauline letters tend to endorse Roman institutions like patriarchal marriage and slavery -- Christians didn't want to look too weird).
More sophisticated arguments for Christian nationalism like the ones mentioned in the article (i.e. Catholic integralism) are drawing on post-biblical political theologies developed in the context of Christendom and Westphalian cuius regio, eius religio approaches to nationalism which emphasize a population's uniform acceptance of a set of transcendant values as a precondition of it functioning as a nation. Ironically, secularization hasn't really done away with this notion of nationalism, as is evident in much of Europe where embracing a sort post-Protestant agnosticism is seen as a precondition for becoming a true member of civil society. If you want to read more about this Talal Asad has plenty of stuff on it.
posted by nangua at 1:33 AM on April 3, 2023 [21 favorites]
Jesus: "Here's a miracle where I take a basket of fish and bread and feed thousands who were hungry."
Paul: "You don't work, you don't eat."
If memory serves me correctly, I read an account here on the Blue that the miracle of loaves and fishes has a lovely possible explanation -- Jesus passed the basket to feed those who didn't bring anything to eat, and whose who did bring something put some of theirs in, rather than take it out. So people shared, and everyone got fed, with plenty left over.
And no one asked if anyone else "deserved it."
But so many Evangelicals supported Trump ferociously, not with a feeling of "Well, look, he's obviously done wrong in his personal life but at least he'll nominate pro-life people to the Supreme Court" but with a feeling of near-adulation
This phenomenon is nothing new -- many evangelicals revealed themselves as a pack of hypocrites way back in 1980, when they abandoned Jimmy Carter, an actual, practicing evangelical christian, to vote for Ronald Reagan.
posted by Gelatin at 5:05 AM on April 3, 2023 [10 favorites]
Paul: "You don't work, you don't eat."
If memory serves me correctly, I read an account here on the Blue that the miracle of loaves and fishes has a lovely possible explanation -- Jesus passed the basket to feed those who didn't bring anything to eat, and whose who did bring something put some of theirs in, rather than take it out. So people shared, and everyone got fed, with plenty left over.
And no one asked if anyone else "deserved it."
But so many Evangelicals supported Trump ferociously, not with a feeling of "Well, look, he's obviously done wrong in his personal life but at least he'll nominate pro-life people to the Supreme Court" but with a feeling of near-adulation
This phenomenon is nothing new -- many evangelicals revealed themselves as a pack of hypocrites way back in 1980, when they abandoned Jimmy Carter, an actual, practicing evangelical christian, to vote for Ronald Reagan.
posted by Gelatin at 5:05 AM on April 3, 2023 [10 favorites]
I'm still confused about why they're abandoning him after he gave them exactly what they've always wanted.
posted by Selena777 at 6:10 AM on April 3, 2023
posted by Selena777 at 6:10 AM on April 3, 2023
I'm still confused about why they're abandoning him after he gave them exactly what they've always wanted.
Because Christianity in the USA is, first and foremost, a transactional business, and the Evangelicals are finding a partnership with Trump is no longer profitable.
posted by JohnFromGR at 7:04 AM on April 3, 2023 [4 favorites]
Because Christianity in the USA is, first and foremost, a transactional business, and the Evangelicals are finding a partnership with Trump is no longer profitable.
posted by JohnFromGR at 7:04 AM on April 3, 2023 [4 favorites]
If memory serves me correctly, I read an account here on the Blue that the miracle of loaves and fishes has a lovely possible explanation -- Jesus passed the basket to feed those who didn't bring anything to eat, and whose who did bring something put some of theirs in, rather than take it out. So people shared, and everyone got fed, with plenty left over.
I think I read something like that in an essay; someone who was trying to make the point that the real point of Christianity wasn't about Jesus being some kind of wizard, but about Jesus proving that it'd be awesome if we were all nice to each other for a change basically.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 8:15 AM on April 3, 2023 [5 favorites]
I think I read something like that in an essay; someone who was trying to make the point that the real point of Christianity wasn't about Jesus being some kind of wizard, but about Jesus proving that it'd be awesome if we were all nice to each other for a change basically.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 8:15 AM on April 3, 2023 [5 favorites]
> Early Christians were very eschatalogical: they were expecting the end of the world to come any day.
Some things never change, huh?
posted by The Card Cheat at 8:40 AM on April 3, 2023 [1 favorite]
Some things never change, huh?
posted by The Card Cheat at 8:40 AM on April 3, 2023 [1 favorite]
the real point of Christianity wasn't about Jesus being some kind of wizard, but about Jesus proving that it'd be awesome if we were all nice to each other for a change basically.
Jesus: be excellent to each other.
Also, Douglas Adams: "And then, one Thursday, nearly two thousand years after one man had been nailed to a tree for saying how great it would be to be nice to people for a change..."
posted by kirkaracha at 9:33 AM on April 3, 2023 [8 favorites]
Jesus: be excellent to each other.
Also, Douglas Adams: "And then, one Thursday, nearly two thousand years after one man had been nailed to a tree for saying how great it would be to be nice to people for a change..."
posted by kirkaracha at 9:33 AM on April 3, 2023 [8 favorites]
Jesus: be excellent to each other.
This is probably closer to the early Christian use of the Greek word, agape, than most interpretations. As others have stated, love was already a commandment in Judaism, but it was a localized covenant religion. So unconditional regard/charity/affection became the calling card for a universal movement, competing with many other purported paths to heaven at the time; those that excluded women, or favored nobility, are long forgotten. It didn't finish the job though, insisting that we honor a human sacrifice in order to be saved, and prepare for the end of the world by renouncing it, before it's too late (which is overkill since everyone dies naturally). The next level world religion will be fully unconditional: no prior condemnation, no ritualized shortcuts, no limited seating, no flattery of deities, no intercessors, no glorified locations, no favored group or membership, no fear and trembling required. I cautiously note that Keanu Reeves is becoming a prime example.
posted by Brian B. at 3:22 PM on April 3, 2023 [6 favorites]
This is probably closer to the early Christian use of the Greek word, agape, than most interpretations. As others have stated, love was already a commandment in Judaism, but it was a localized covenant religion. So unconditional regard/charity/affection became the calling card for a universal movement, competing with many other purported paths to heaven at the time; those that excluded women, or favored nobility, are long forgotten. It didn't finish the job though, insisting that we honor a human sacrifice in order to be saved, and prepare for the end of the world by renouncing it, before it's too late (which is overkill since everyone dies naturally). The next level world religion will be fully unconditional: no prior condemnation, no ritualized shortcuts, no limited seating, no flattery of deities, no intercessors, no glorified locations, no favored group or membership, no fear and trembling required. I cautiously note that Keanu Reeves is becoming a prime example.
posted by Brian B. at 3:22 PM on April 3, 2023 [6 favorites]
Whoa.
posted by kirkaracha at 4:24 PM on April 3, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by kirkaracha at 4:24 PM on April 3, 2023 [5 favorites]
Brian B: you shall not wrong a stranger. I would also note an important reason Jews started making it hard to convert was fear of persecution from majority religions such as Christianity.
posted by i_am_joe's_spleen at 4:52 PM on April 3, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by i_am_joe's_spleen at 4:52 PM on April 3, 2023 [3 favorites]
But sometimes he was an absolute cult leader.
Wasn't Jesus also the first character in the Bible to say that people would burn in "eternal fire" or be subject to "eternal damnation"? That also takes it up a notch on the cult leader/angry god front.
posted by clawsoon at 6:48 PM on April 3, 2023
Wasn't Jesus also the first character in the Bible to say that people would burn in "eternal fire" or be subject to "eternal damnation"? That also takes it up a notch on the cult leader/angry god front.
posted by clawsoon at 6:48 PM on April 3, 2023
> insisting that we honor a human sacrifice in order to be saved
omelas?
posted by kliuless at 9:41 PM on April 3, 2023 [1 favorite]
omelas?
posted by kliuless at 9:41 PM on April 3, 2023 [1 favorite]
Look, do you want a happy god or a vengeful god?
posted by kirkaracha at 10:25 PM on April 3, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by kirkaracha at 10:25 PM on April 3, 2023 [3 favorites]
Wasn't Jesus also the first character in the Bible to say that people would burn in "eternal fire" or be subject to "eternal damnation"?
Pretty sure the answer to that is "No" -- I'm not sure if there are any such passages anywhere in the Bible (maybe the Book of Revelation?) as Hell is largely a post-Biblical creation? but I'll defer to someone with more immediate recollection of the Gospels et al.
posted by Saxon Kane at 11:10 AM on April 4, 2023
Pretty sure the answer to that is "No" -- I'm not sure if there are any such passages anywhere in the Bible (maybe the Book of Revelation?) as Hell is largely a post-Biblical creation? but I'll defer to someone with more immediate recollection of the Gospels et al.
posted by Saxon Kane at 11:10 AM on April 4, 2023
clawsoon is probably thinking of Matthew 25 (verse 41 especially).
posted by mbrubeck at 11:26 AM on April 4, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by mbrubeck at 11:26 AM on April 4, 2023 [2 favorites]
For further reading:
From PRRI (Public Religion Research Institute) in February: A Christian Nation? Understanding the Threat of Christian Nationalism to American Democracy and Culture
From the Pew Research Center, last fall: "Most U.S. adults believe America’s founders intended the country to be a Christian nation, and many say they think it should be a Christian nation today, according to a new Pew Research Center survey designed to explore Americans’ views on the topic. But the survey also finds widely differing opinions about what it means to be a “Christian nation” and to support “Christian nationalism.”"
I know this was recommended above, but Kristin Kobes Du Mez's Jesus and John Wayne: How White Evangelicals Corrupted a Faith and Fractured a Nation (FanFare) is a help in exploring contemporary political evangelicals.
Also don't miss Anthea Butler's White Evangelical Racism: The Politics of Morality in America (Fanfare).
From the Uncivil Religion Project: Christian Nationalism on January 6
Anthea Butler again, on the Jan. 6 gallows: "People don’t build gallows as a hobby. The gallows were built for the ultimate political retribution. Threats of violence against politicians and media figures are no longer anathema, but a regular feature of the right-wing media complex. In the case of the insurrection, a muscular, violent image of punishment, coupled with prayers and violence, turned the men and women of the Capitol insurrection into instruments of God’s punishment on those who opposed their (and their God’s) choice for the nation’s leader.
"These ideas about retribution, punishment, and judgment are part of their Americanized Christianity, where babies, guns and Jesus rule the land, and good Christian patriots build gallows. The gallows were a symbol of their moral righteousness, the need to shed blood to bring back righteousness to the land."
A Virtual Roundtable on the Threat of Christian Nationalism (Robert P. Jones, Kristin K. Du Mez, Jemar Tisby): Part 1; Part 2; Part 3; Part 4
Du Mez, from Part 3: "The deep story of Christian nationalism is one rooted in a sense of loss, the loss of a (mythical) Christian ideal that must be restored. At the center of this story resides a stark us vs. them mentality. You are either with us or against us. And since God is on our side, those who are against us are against God. In this way, fighting one’s enemies, real or imagined, is always justified. And the ends will always justify the means."
posted by MonkeyToes at 1:44 PM on April 4, 2023 [4 favorites]
From PRRI (Public Religion Research Institute) in February: A Christian Nation? Understanding the Threat of Christian Nationalism to American Democracy and Culture
From the Pew Research Center, last fall: "Most U.S. adults believe America’s founders intended the country to be a Christian nation, and many say they think it should be a Christian nation today, according to a new Pew Research Center survey designed to explore Americans’ views on the topic. But the survey also finds widely differing opinions about what it means to be a “Christian nation” and to support “Christian nationalism.”"
I know this was recommended above, but Kristin Kobes Du Mez's Jesus and John Wayne: How White Evangelicals Corrupted a Faith and Fractured a Nation (FanFare) is a help in exploring contemporary political evangelicals.
Also don't miss Anthea Butler's White Evangelical Racism: The Politics of Morality in America (Fanfare).
From the Uncivil Religion Project: Christian Nationalism on January 6
Anthea Butler again, on the Jan. 6 gallows: "People don’t build gallows as a hobby. The gallows were built for the ultimate political retribution. Threats of violence against politicians and media figures are no longer anathema, but a regular feature of the right-wing media complex. In the case of the insurrection, a muscular, violent image of punishment, coupled with prayers and violence, turned the men and women of the Capitol insurrection into instruments of God’s punishment on those who opposed their (and their God’s) choice for the nation’s leader.
"These ideas about retribution, punishment, and judgment are part of their Americanized Christianity, where babies, guns and Jesus rule the land, and good Christian patriots build gallows. The gallows were a symbol of their moral righteousness, the need to shed blood to bring back righteousness to the land."
A Virtual Roundtable on the Threat of Christian Nationalism (Robert P. Jones, Kristin K. Du Mez, Jemar Tisby): Part 1; Part 2; Part 3; Part 4
Du Mez, from Part 3: "The deep story of Christian nationalism is one rooted in a sense of loss, the loss of a (mythical) Christian ideal that must be restored. At the center of this story resides a stark us vs. them mentality. You are either with us or against us. And since God is on our side, those who are against us are against God. In this way, fighting one’s enemies, real or imagined, is always justified. And the ends will always justify the means."
posted by MonkeyToes at 1:44 PM on April 4, 2023 [4 favorites]
Most U.S. adults believe America’s founders intended the country to be a Christian nation
If they intended the country to be a Christian nation, why didn't they say so, instead of literally saying the exact opposite? Along with the Constitution, treaties are the supreme law of the land, and this one was ratified unanimously in 1797, mostly by Founding Fathers.
All of the colonies had an official state religion. Seven out of the thirteen colonies had had official churches for over 200 years. If they intended the country to be a Christian nation, why did they explicitly forbid the establishment of religion in the Bill of Rights?
Also, conservatives only use the Puritans of Massachusetts colony as an example of how America is "a city upon a hill." JFK, Reagan, and Obama all bought into the "shining city on a hill" bullshit.
The colonies were founded for different reasons, and Massachusetts wasn't the first colony by a long shot.
"The first African slaves in what would become the present day United States of America arrived August 9, 1526, in Winyah Bay, when Lucas Vázquez de Ayllón brought 600 colonists to start a colony."
The Colony of Virginia was founded in 1607. The colony enslaved Native Americans from the beginning and began importing enslaved Africans in 1619, mainly to raise tobacco.
The Dutch established New Netherland in 1614.
Plymouth Colony was established in 1620. (Which is one of the reasons conservatives get all butthurt about the 1619 Project; the first colonies were founded to use slavery to extract resources, not for religious reasons.)
So why cherry-pick the non-representative Johnny-come-lately Plymouth Colony? The Province of Pennsylvania, though officially Quaker, "extended religious freedom to all monotheists, and the government was initially open to all Christians." Possibly a better example.
Spain founded St. Augustine, Florida, "the oldest continuously occupied settlement of European origin in the contiguous United States," in 1565. So according to the laws of first come, first serve, Americans should officially be Spanish-speaking Catholics.
posted by kirkaracha at 4:41 PM on April 4, 2023 [8 favorites]
If they intended the country to be a Christian nation, why didn't they say so, instead of literally saying the exact opposite? Along with the Constitution, treaties are the supreme law of the land, and this one was ratified unanimously in 1797, mostly by Founding Fathers.
All of the colonies had an official state religion. Seven out of the thirteen colonies had had official churches for over 200 years. If they intended the country to be a Christian nation, why did they explicitly forbid the establishment of religion in the Bill of Rights?
Also, conservatives only use the Puritans of Massachusetts colony as an example of how America is "a city upon a hill." JFK, Reagan, and Obama all bought into the "shining city on a hill" bullshit.
The colonies were founded for different reasons, and Massachusetts wasn't the first colony by a long shot.
"The first African slaves in what would become the present day United States of America arrived August 9, 1526, in Winyah Bay, when Lucas Vázquez de Ayllón brought 600 colonists to start a colony."
The Colony of Virginia was founded in 1607. The colony enslaved Native Americans from the beginning and began importing enslaved Africans in 1619, mainly to raise tobacco.
The Dutch established New Netherland in 1614.
Plymouth Colony was established in 1620. (Which is one of the reasons conservatives get all butthurt about the 1619 Project; the first colonies were founded to use slavery to extract resources, not for religious reasons.)
So why cherry-pick the non-representative Johnny-come-lately Plymouth Colony? The Province of Pennsylvania, though officially Quaker, "extended religious freedom to all monotheists, and the government was initially open to all Christians." Possibly a better example.
Spain founded St. Augustine, Florida, "the oldest continuously occupied settlement of European origin in the contiguous United States," in 1565. So according to the laws of first come, first serve, Americans should officially be Spanish-speaking Catholics.
posted by kirkaracha at 4:41 PM on April 4, 2023 [8 favorites]
clawsoon is probably thinking of Matthew 25 (verse 41 especially).
Also Mark 3:29, at least in the KJV, and Mark 9:43. I'm no Biblical scholar, though, so I'm not sure how many of those "fire that shall never be quenched" references are likely to have come from him.
And I could've sworn that Hell was a pre-Christian idea, not post-Christian, having entered Judaism from Zoroastrianism during the Persian imperial period after most of the books of the Hebrew Bible were written.
posted by clawsoon at 10:56 AM on April 5, 2023
Also Mark 3:29, at least in the KJV, and Mark 9:43. I'm no Biblical scholar, though, so I'm not sure how many of those "fire that shall never be quenched" references are likely to have come from him.
And I could've sworn that Hell was a pre-Christian idea, not post-Christian, having entered Judaism from Zoroastrianism during the Persian imperial period after most of the books of the Hebrew Bible were written.
posted by clawsoon at 10:56 AM on April 5, 2023
Yes, per Bernstein's The Formation of Hell, Jewish thought of the time absolutely had room for the idea of Hell among at least some of that faith. For example, "Gehenna" had moved from a physical place to fiery torment for evildoers. (I don't recall it coming solely from Zoroastrianism; there was a lot of cross fertiilization among religions of the Mediterranean and Middle East.)
Bernstein also argues that Hell doesn't appear in Paul. Claims like "The wages of sin are death" can be read literally: Jesus can save you and give you eternal life, otherwise you just cease to exist anymore. The idea that "death" in that sentence is some metaphor for eternal suffering is, he argues, something read back into it from people who read Paul's letters as if they were composed after the Gospels.
posted by mark k at 10:57 PM on April 5, 2023 [2 favorites]
Bernstein also argues that Hell doesn't appear in Paul. Claims like "The wages of sin are death" can be read literally: Jesus can save you and give you eternal life, otherwise you just cease to exist anymore. The idea that "death" in that sentence is some metaphor for eternal suffering is, he argues, something read back into it from people who read Paul's letters as if they were composed after the Gospels.
posted by mark k at 10:57 PM on April 5, 2023 [2 favorites]
The actual text in the Bible probably isn't relevant if we are discussing Evangelicals' belief system. Maybe even most Christians, regardless of denomination, don't really know what's in the Bible. And as I understand it, that is by design. It's all about the practice, which makes sense, given that Christianity developed out of Judaism during the height of the Roman Empire.
posted by mumimor at 2:48 AM on April 6, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by mumimor at 2:48 AM on April 6, 2023 [4 favorites]
there was a lot of cross fertiilization among religions of the Mediterranean and Middle East
I had one religion prof say that the first commandment ("You shall have no other gods before me.") was an acknowledgement of the fact of multiple gods from multiple religions. It was a commandment to have YWHW be THE major god rather than the only god.
posted by a non mouse, a cow herd at 8:38 AM on April 6, 2023
I had one religion prof say that the first commandment ("You shall have no other gods before me.") was an acknowledgement of the fact of multiple gods from multiple religions. It was a commandment to have YWHW be THE major god rather than the only god.
posted by a non mouse, a cow herd at 8:38 AM on April 6, 2023
Look, do you want a happy god or a vengeful god?
This describes the minimal polytheism of Christianity. One God is mean and arbitrary, as nature can be, but one is loving, if we repent and submit to depersonalization. The Holy Ghost mentally bonds the two. It was the only way elites would ever sanction a universal religion, through fear of a higher power, and needing soldiers who could be motivated to vengeance. The danger never goes away with top-down ethics because the worst crimes on a mass scale are done by followers pleasing superiors, something they wouldn't do normally. This is the framed opposition between religion and humanity, where the former takes all the credit for good, because individuals are fallen creatures. The reverse is true. We evolved altruistically, experiencing a great loss of dignity with exploitive civilization, and we are always looking for the way back with supplied ethics. What achieves best results is mutual self-respect, though virtually impossible under elite governance and inequality. It's something ancient maritime cultures instinctively understood (one hand for the ship, one for yourself). Least so with agricultural ones modeled after plantations, where the food one grew was given back as needed, if worthy.
posted by Brian B. at 10:25 AM on April 6, 2023 [1 favorite]
This describes the minimal polytheism of Christianity. One God is mean and arbitrary, as nature can be, but one is loving, if we repent and submit to depersonalization. The Holy Ghost mentally bonds the two. It was the only way elites would ever sanction a universal religion, through fear of a higher power, and needing soldiers who could be motivated to vengeance. The danger never goes away with top-down ethics because the worst crimes on a mass scale are done by followers pleasing superiors, something they wouldn't do normally. This is the framed opposition between religion and humanity, where the former takes all the credit for good, because individuals are fallen creatures. The reverse is true. We evolved altruistically, experiencing a great loss of dignity with exploitive civilization, and we are always looking for the way back with supplied ethics. What achieves best results is mutual self-respect, though virtually impossible under elite governance and inequality. It's something ancient maritime cultures instinctively understood (one hand for the ship, one for yourself). Least so with agricultural ones modeled after plantations, where the food one grew was given back as needed, if worthy.
posted by Brian B. at 10:25 AM on April 6, 2023 [1 favorite]
Thanks to mark k et al for the corrections & references! :)
posted by Saxon Kane at 8:39 AM on April 24, 2023
posted by Saxon Kane at 8:39 AM on April 24, 2023
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I don't think there's going to be a revival though. Church attendance has been declining for decades, across generations. If your parents didn't drag you to church, you probably won't drag your kids to church. This voting bloc is going to shrink and so will their power. Not before they wield that power to corrupt all levels of government though, from schools to hospitals and courts. That won't last forever, the majority won't accept sharia law.
Nice of the New Yorker to provide narration for this article.
posted by adept256 at 2:38 AM on April 2, 2023 [30 favorites]