World Chess Championship 2023
April 17, 2023 8:42 AM Subscribe
The World Chess Championship is underway in at the St Regis Hotel in Astana, Kazakhstan. The reigning champion, Magnus Carlsen, has elected not to defend his title and play poker instead. Two players are playing a 14 game match to decide who will replace him as the official World Chess Champion: Ian Nepomniachtchi and Ding Lien. You can watch live coverage of the games on official channels YouTube (FIDE) and Twitch (Chess.com)
Although expectations were low with Magnus sitting out the match has surprised many with several interesting games. 2018 world champion challenger Fabiano Caruana has done the most in depth recaps of the games on his C-Squared Channel with fellow Grandmaster Cristian Chirila.
The match is not without some drama. Ding Liren admitted to feeling depressed at the start of the match and fell behind early. Although his second Richárd Rapport seems to have helped him even the match after putting on some Bob Dylan.
Although expectations were low with Magnus sitting out the match has surprised many with several interesting games. 2018 world champion challenger Fabiano Caruana has done the most in depth recaps of the games on his C-Squared Channel with fellow Grandmaster Cristian Chirila.
The match is not without some drama. Ding Liren admitted to feeling depressed at the start of the match and fell behind early. Although his second Richárd Rapport seems to have helped him even the match after putting on some Bob Dylan.
Can someone who knows more about the state of chess at this level explain why Carlsen would pass to go play poker? Is it just the money?
posted by grmpyprogrammer at 9:20 AM on April 17, 2023
posted by grmpyprogrammer at 9:20 AM on April 17, 2023
Is it just the money?
Technically, it would be the expectation of money. Lots of exceptional poker players go broke - even with players staking other players and syndicates and such.
posted by Billiken at 9:30 AM on April 17, 2023
Technically, it would be the expectation of money. Lots of exceptional poker players go broke - even with players staking other players and syndicates and such.
posted by Billiken at 9:30 AM on April 17, 2023
Reliably winning world champion level chess is a lot of work and prep. You literally want to work out who you are likely to play, predict what kind of games you'll be playing against that person, and memorize books going insanely deep against their play. Then work out what variations to learn and when to leave the book in order to beat *their* book.
It isn't just "show up and play". And showing up and playing without massive prep means probably losing the title.
And retiring as an undefeated world champion is a better than being beaten. You can use "retired undefeated multiple year world champion" to open a lot of doors that "defeated world champion" wouldn't.
posted by NotAYakk at 10:07 AM on April 17, 2023 [6 favorites]
It isn't just "show up and play". And showing up and playing without massive prep means probably losing the title.
And retiring as an undefeated world champion is a better than being beaten. You can use "retired undefeated multiple year world champion" to open a lot of doors that "defeated world champion" wouldn't.
posted by NotAYakk at 10:07 AM on April 17, 2023 [6 favorites]
Can someone who knows more about the state of chess at this level explain why Carlsen would pass to go play poker? Is it just the money?
Mostly it was that he's spent his entire life playing chess and achieved everything he possibly could with the exception of longest at #1, which would take him another eight years to beat. He still plays chess, just not in the FIDE World Championship, and he wouldn't be the first World Champion to have issues with FIDE generally.
posted by Etrigan at 10:08 AM on April 17, 2023 [2 favorites]
Mostly it was that he's spent his entire life playing chess and achieved everything he possibly could with the exception of longest at #1, which would take him another eight years to beat. He still plays chess, just not in the FIDE World Championship, and he wouldn't be the first World Champion to have issues with FIDE generally.
posted by Etrigan at 10:08 AM on April 17, 2023 [2 favorites]
The demands of high level tournaments are pretty intense. This is an article from a few years ago about how chess grandmasters stay in physical shape for competitions. I guess it's not uncommon for players to lose ~10 pounds over the course of a 10 day tournament from the stress and mental exertion. I get not wanting to do that anymore.
posted by crossswords at 10:16 AM on April 17, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by crossswords at 10:16 AM on April 17, 2023 [1 favorite]
Can someone who knows more about the state of chess at this level explain why Carlsen would pass to go play poker? Is it just the money?
posted by grmpyprogrammer at 9:20 AM on April 17
Here is the FPP on the topic with some discussion and insights
posted by OHenryPacey at 10:27 AM on April 17, 2023
posted by grmpyprogrammer at 9:20 AM on April 17
Here is the FPP on the topic with some discussion and insights
posted by OHenryPacey at 10:27 AM on April 17, 2023
Was Fischer the last person to (effectively) retire on top? And before that… Alekhine, in the sense that he died as the de facto world champion, which inaugurated FIDE as the effective international governing body as they held the tournament to determine his successor? Am I forgetting somebody?
Carlsen’s situation seems new regardless, in that he’s still playing competitively but not competing for the title.
posted by atoxyl at 10:30 AM on April 17, 2023
Carlsen’s situation seems new regardless, in that he’s still playing competitively but not competing for the title.
posted by atoxyl at 10:30 AM on April 17, 2023
Thank you to everyone who has pointed me at explanations for what is going on here.
posted by grmpyprogrammer at 10:34 AM on April 17, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by grmpyprogrammer at 10:34 AM on April 17, 2023 [1 favorite]
Carlsen has pretty soundly defeated his generation’s contemporaries. He demolished Nepo in the last WC match December of 2021. There is no reason to think there wouldn’t be the same result. Being world
champion means you have to spend 6 months every other year preparing to play the WC match. I don’t think it is about the money as much as it is about the grind and him being sick of it.
He’s just made a big pile of money selling his businesses to chess.com, he’s in his thirties and probably wants to have a little fun.
As long as he remains the top rated player it doesn’t matter much if he has the FIDE title. The only prize he’d like to collect in chess is to be the first player to break 2900 Elo in the FIDE Rating list. Defending the WC actually makes that harder, as it means he plays less chess.
posted by interogative mood at 10:45 AM on April 17, 2023 [3 favorites]
champion means you have to spend 6 months every other year preparing to play the WC match. I don’t think it is about the money as much as it is about the grind and him being sick of it.
He’s just made a big pile of money selling his businesses to chess.com, he’s in his thirties and probably wants to have a little fun.
As long as he remains the top rated player it doesn’t matter much if he has the FIDE title. The only prize he’d like to collect in chess is to be the first player to break 2900 Elo in the FIDE Rating list. Defending the WC actually makes that harder, as it means he plays less chess.
posted by interogative mood at 10:45 AM on April 17, 2023 [3 favorites]
To me it seems like it’s primarily that the plausible candidates to play for the championship are mostly the same contemporaries Carlsen has managed to outclass for years, including those against whom he’s already successfully defended the title. Firouzja is the exception but he hasn’t made it quite yet. Carlsen has 60-70 rating points on the whole next tier of players.
So if he lost it would look (and feel) like his heart wasn’t in it anyway. Better just to admit that up front and skip the grueling process.
posted by atoxyl at 10:45 AM on April 17, 2023 [2 favorites]
So if he lost it would look (and feel) like his heart wasn’t in it anyway. Better just to admit that up front and skip the grueling process.
posted by atoxyl at 10:45 AM on April 17, 2023 [2 favorites]
Looks like interrogative mood said something similar while I was writing that!
posted by atoxyl at 10:46 AM on April 17, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by atoxyl at 10:46 AM on April 17, 2023 [1 favorite]
It looks like there have been wins! by each player!
At the time of writing, Nepomniachtchi has won 2 games, Ding has won 2 games, and 2 games have been drawn.
posted by WalkingAround at 11:23 AM on April 17, 2023
At the time of writing, Nepomniachtchi has won 2 games, Ding has won 2 games, and 2 games have been drawn.
posted by WalkingAround at 11:23 AM on April 17, 2023
At the time of writing, Nepomniachtchi has won 2 games, Ding has won 2 games, and 2 games have been drawn.
If you want a sense of how far ahead of the field Carlsen is, he lost 2 games in all five of his World Championships combined.
posted by Etrigan at 1:03 PM on April 17, 2023 [3 favorites]
If you want a sense of how far ahead of the field Carlsen is, he lost 2 games in all five of his World Championships combined.
posted by Etrigan at 1:03 PM on April 17, 2023 [3 favorites]
Although expectations were low with Magnus sitting out the match has surprised many with several interesting games.
It's been interesting listening to the commentary around this. The grumpy take is that the games have been "interesting" because they have been full of blunders and inaccuracies, and thus lower-level than previous world championships. The alternative take is that these games have been exciting and who cares if they are not quite as immaculately-played as we might have expected with Magnus. Ultimately, these players are still playing exciting, incredibly accurate chess (here's a reddit post comparing the average accuracy of recent world championships), with moments of sheer brilliance (e.g. Ding's 41.d5! in Game 6).
posted by googly at 1:13 PM on April 17, 2023
It's been interesting listening to the commentary around this. The grumpy take is that the games have been "interesting" because they have been full of blunders and inaccuracies, and thus lower-level than previous world championships. The alternative take is that these games have been exciting and who cares if they are not quite as immaculately-played as we might have expected with Magnus. Ultimately, these players are still playing exciting, incredibly accurate chess (here's a reddit post comparing the average accuracy of recent world championships), with moments of sheer brilliance (e.g. Ding's 41.d5! in Game 6).
posted by googly at 1:13 PM on April 17, 2023
the plausible candidates to play for the championship are mostly the same contemporaries Carlsen has managed to outclass for years, including those against whom he’s already successfully defended the title.
Here's me picturing Carlsen entering a room blasting Roman Reigns' theme song.
posted by The Pluto Gangsta at 1:33 PM on April 17, 2023
Here's me picturing Carlsen entering a room blasting Roman Reigns' theme song.
posted by The Pluto Gangsta at 1:33 PM on April 17, 2023
Here's me picturing Carlsen entering a room blasting Roman Reigns' theme song.
See? The only way it ends is with him retiring!
posted by Etrigan at 1:52 PM on April 17, 2023 [1 favorite]
See? The only way it ends is with him retiring!
posted by Etrigan at 1:52 PM on April 17, 2023 [1 favorite]
Chess streamer Agadmator has very helpful and engaging break downs of each of the games.
posted by cubby at 1:56 PM on April 17, 2023
posted by cubby at 1:56 PM on April 17, 2023
Thanks for posting!
Ding Liren is a HERO: He came back TWICE from being down a match so far. His second win yesterday was such a blast. I mean, after some work he was in the clear lead in an opening that was never played in a world championship match before, ever. And Nepo was prepped for it according to his post-game interview! The London never gets played in top level chess - it's an opening rookie players like because it works against almost anything black tries.
Ding defended his clock like the champ he is until move 40 when he got more time. Then he sat down, looked at the board for like 20 minutes and played pawn D5 (well after a knight move). Nobody predicted it. I should probably link some Anish Giri tweet about it. It was not the chess computer's top move. And the chess computer could not explain why it was so good to humans either.
And it was SUCH a great move: Clear early contender for Move of the Year.
posted by flamewise at 2:11 PM on April 17, 2023 [2 favorites]
Ding Liren is a HERO: He came back TWICE from being down a match so far. His second win yesterday was such a blast. I mean, after some work he was in the clear lead in an opening that was never played in a world championship match before, ever. And Nepo was prepped for it according to his post-game interview! The London never gets played in top level chess - it's an opening rookie players like because it works against almost anything black tries.
Ding defended his clock like the champ he is until move 40 when he got more time. Then he sat down, looked at the board for like 20 minutes and played pawn D5 (well after a knight move). Nobody predicted it. I should probably link some Anish Giri tweet about it. It was not the chess computer's top move. And the chess computer could not explain why it was so good to humans either.
And it was SUCH a great move: Clear early contender for Move of the Year.
posted by flamewise at 2:11 PM on April 17, 2023 [2 favorites]
My favourite reaction to Ding's d5 was from Teimour Radjabov (currrently #10 in the world), who reacted with disbelief that Ding could play such an unbelievably bad move...
...and then 5 minutes later, when he finally figured out the point of the move, he took his words back and apologized to all Ding's fans.
posted by clawsoon at 7:42 PM on April 17, 2023 [1 favorite]
...and then 5 minutes later, when he finally figured out the point of the move, he took his words back and apologized to all Ding's fans.
posted by clawsoon at 7:42 PM on April 17, 2023 [1 favorite]
Chess has a concept called “opening theory” where players begin their games by playing initial moves that have been played in games before, looked at with computers and deemed to at least not lose the game and ideally set the stage for the actual game where they will start to make their own moves. In Magnus’ games in WC matches he and his opponents have tended to go deep into these theoretical lines, sometimes playing 20 moves before breaking into new territory. This tended to artificially inflate the accuracy score of the games when compared to the computers suggested moves, since they are just playing the moves the computer already said were good.
This match is a bit different. Ding has brought in a second who is known for his creativity in the opening and fighting style of chess. It is a lot more fun to watch.
posted by interogative mood at 11:01 PM on April 17, 2023 [1 favorite]
This match is a bit different. Ding has brought in a second who is known for his creativity in the opening and fighting style of chess. It is a lot more fun to watch.
posted by interogative mood at 11:01 PM on April 17, 2023 [1 favorite]
In Magnus’ games in WC matches he and his opponents have tended to go deep into these theoretical lines, sometimes playing 20 moves before breaking into new territory.
Was it Magnus Carlsen or somebody else who recently talked about their "anti-youth" strategy, where they've started to quickly transition out of theory against strong young players in order to combat the memorization strength of teenagers with the wiliness and intuition of their experience?
I guess Magnus didn't trust himself to win the championship without deep theory, but didn't want to yet again go through the exhausting grind of memorizing all that theory. It'd surely be interesting to see him in a WCC match leaning on his experience instead of on the grind.
This match is a bit different. Ding has brought in a second who is known for his creativity in the opening and fighting style of chess. It is a lot more fun to watch.
Speaking of Ding, a Chinese-speaking Reddit user put together a lovely profile based on various interviews Ding has done with the Chinese media. "The Meaning of Life Is In Those Sparkling Moments."
posted by clawsoon at 12:32 AM on April 18, 2023 [1 favorite]
Was it Magnus Carlsen or somebody else who recently talked about their "anti-youth" strategy, where they've started to quickly transition out of theory against strong young players in order to combat the memorization strength of teenagers with the wiliness and intuition of their experience?
I guess Magnus didn't trust himself to win the championship without deep theory, but didn't want to yet again go through the exhausting grind of memorizing all that theory. It'd surely be interesting to see him in a WCC match leaning on his experience instead of on the grind.
This match is a bit different. Ding has brought in a second who is known for his creativity in the opening and fighting style of chess. It is a lot more fun to watch.
Speaking of Ding, a Chinese-speaking Reddit user put together a lovely profile based on various interviews Ding has done with the Chinese media. "The Meaning of Life Is In Those Sparkling Moments."
Ding, still in high school, was selected for the Chinese national chess team, leaving behind the habit of playing basketball and football with his classmates which started back in junior high school, occasionally lamenting that he and his classmates preparing for the college entrance exams “are living in the same time and space but in very different ways”, drifting alone to the northern part of the country. Ding preferred to be silent during his days in the north.And speaking of fighting chess, in the latest C-Squared podcast Fabiano Caruana complained that neither player seemed to be paying attention to their defensive resources, and were instead only focused on the attack. My impression was the the Carlsen-Caruana match was one of the most defensively precise in history.
During that time, he chose to read a book by Anni Baobei, “I felt very much in sympathy with her book at that time, and it resonated with me. But when my father found out, he said no, you have to read books written by male authors.” Ding obeyed and picked up a collection of short stories by Haruki Murakami.
posted by clawsoon at 12:32 AM on April 18, 2023 [1 favorite]
Another incredibly dramatic game today with a psychological twist. But I won't spoil it...
posted by clawsoon at 6:02 AM on April 18, 2023
posted by clawsoon at 6:02 AM on April 18, 2023
Whenever chess is discussed on the blue I remember one of my all-time favorite comments made here
posted by Molesome at 9:19 AM on April 18, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by Molesome at 9:19 AM on April 18, 2023 [3 favorites]
Molesome that was a fantastic comment, and post.
Anyway, it took me three attempts to understand that in order to really succeed in any meaningful way you have to be willing to MEAN it when you want to defeat your opposition.
My first attempt was tennis. If I wanted to really win, I learned I had to demoralize my opponent. Not play my best tennis - find a style they hate and play that, as best as I could. Make comments while switching sides. Offering a side bet sometimes worked. It was dirty warfare but could get you a trophy.
I hated it and quit.
Chess was really the same but it took me a lot longer to find out. Why can't we humans just enjoy a nice game like this, like poetry or painting? Who cares whoever else likes the results? But I assume the reason is: It is a competition, and it is designed that way. Whatever, Darwin things.
I like playing nice moves in chess, even if that means upsetting someone I care about, which happened and I quit chess, too.
I hope, no I wish for Ding & Nepo that they feel the same. Even Magnus.
I still love watching them creating such nice things.
My third failed attempt is why I gave up on the whole finding a mate thing, and I think we should return to simpler topics like how I severely didn't know enough about Ding Liren and how good he is.
posted by flamewise at 12:31 PM on April 18, 2023 [1 favorite]
Anyway, it took me three attempts to understand that in order to really succeed in any meaningful way you have to be willing to MEAN it when you want to defeat your opposition.
My first attempt was tennis. If I wanted to really win, I learned I had to demoralize my opponent. Not play my best tennis - find a style they hate and play that, as best as I could. Make comments while switching sides. Offering a side bet sometimes worked. It was dirty warfare but could get you a trophy.
I hated it and quit.
Chess was really the same but it took me a lot longer to find out. Why can't we humans just enjoy a nice game like this, like poetry or painting? Who cares whoever else likes the results? But I assume the reason is: It is a competition, and it is designed that way. Whatever, Darwin things.
I like playing nice moves in chess, even if that means upsetting someone I care about, which happened and I quit chess, too.
I hope, no I wish for Ding & Nepo that they feel the same. Even Magnus.
I still love watching them creating such nice things.
My third failed attempt is why I gave up on the whole finding a mate thing, and I think we should return to simpler topics like how I severely didn't know enough about Ding Liren and how good he is.
posted by flamewise at 12:31 PM on April 18, 2023 [1 favorite]
This world championship is some kind of Greek drama, where each player's greatest strength is also their greatest weakness.
posted by clawsoon at 5:04 AM on April 20, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by clawsoon at 5:04 AM on April 20, 2023 [1 favorite]
Somebody - maybe Fabi? - made a point I hadn't expected: The strength of today's chess engines is making this world championship more interesting than previous ones, because any novelty that a player comes up with can be decisively refuted before the next game starts. There's no chance of repeating a trick, so new tricks have to be devised for every new game.
posted by clawsoon at 2:14 PM on April 23, 2023
posted by clawsoon at 2:14 PM on April 23, 2023
Once again, the Greek drama delivers.
posted by clawsoon at 5:35 AM on April 26, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by clawsoon at 5:35 AM on April 26, 2023 [1 favorite]
Magnus Carlsen’s legacy is still being written.
I thought for sure you were going to link to I quit the fucking world championship for this??
posted by clawsoon at 4:26 PM on April 28, 2023 [2 favorites]
I thought for sure you were going to link to I quit the fucking world championship for this??
posted by clawsoon at 4:26 PM on April 28, 2023 [2 favorites]
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