When Rock Stars Screw Up, They Do It In Epic, Spectacular Ways
April 23, 2023 2:41 PM Subscribe
But there’s no take-backs in life. Rock stars, like the rest of us, have to live with the consequences of their actions forever. In this list, we look back at the long history of rock stars’ fuckups and call out the 50 biggest ones. To be clear, we limited this largely to professional decisions that impacted careers. Many rock stars have done horribly destructive things when it comes to drugs or their treatment of women, but that’s a whole other list. The 50 Worst Decisions in Music History [Rolling Stone; ungated]
The 50 worst after you skip all that stuff with underage groupies.
posted by paper chromatographologist at 3:07 PM on April 23, 2023 [51 favorites]
posted by paper chromatographologist at 3:07 PM on April 23, 2023 [51 favorites]
I tend to think having The KLF set a million pounds on fire rather than do literally anything else with it is one of the most deeply selfish things a rock band has done, but I guess that I'm talking about it after (checks watch) 30 years means they got their money's worth
Reading the list, it's pretty dumb, as most Rolling Stone content is. Mostly people just making mistakes they had no idea were mistakes. There's about fifteen genuine dipshit moves, though, and it would have been nice if they'd stuck to that.
posted by seanmpuckett at 3:09 PM on April 23, 2023 [14 favorites]
Reading the list, it's pretty dumb, as most Rolling Stone content is. Mostly people just making mistakes they had no idea were mistakes. There's about fifteen genuine dipshit moves, though, and it would have been nice if they'd stuck to that.
posted by seanmpuckett at 3:09 PM on April 23, 2023 [14 favorites]
Janet Jackson’s career was dealt a major blow in 2004, when her right breast was exposed at the Super Bowl halftime show in front of a global audience of countless millions.
Mike Ditka was selling boner pills during the ad breaks of that super bowl and the Patriots won. Of all the bad things that happened during that super bowl, that might not have been in the top three.
posted by mhoye at 3:12 PM on April 23, 2023 [39 favorites]
Mike Ditka was selling boner pills during the ad breaks of that super bowl and the Patriots won. Of all the bad things that happened during that super bowl, that might not have been in the top three.
posted by mhoye at 3:12 PM on April 23, 2023 [39 favorites]
‘I knew about Eric Clapton’s public and unrecanted racism, but vaccine conspiracy is too far’
posted by Fiasco da Gama at 3:15 PM on April 23, 2023 [59 favorites]
posted by Fiasco da Gama at 3:15 PM on April 23, 2023 [59 favorites]
Lennon saying the Beatles were bigger than Jesus was a terrible decision? Yes, who knows what they might have gone on to do if they hadn't disappeared into obscurity in 1966.
posted by Sing Or Swim at 3:20 PM on April 23, 2023 [70 favorites]
posted by Sing Or Swim at 3:20 PM on April 23, 2023 [70 favorites]
Honestly? I like Self Portrait. Fight me.
posted by caution live frogs at 3:32 PM on April 23, 2023 [17 favorites]
posted by caution live frogs at 3:32 PM on April 23, 2023 [17 favorites]
Mostly people just making mistakes they had no idea were mistakes.
If you know it's a mistake, you tend not to make it.
I thought it was a good and interesting list. It wasn't life-changing, but if you're someone a couple of decades younger than me, this could be eye-opening about how things in the current music world are shaped the way they are, or how not knowing that band you just listened to and turned down would be the next big thing, or how trying to catch a current trend can be career suicide.
There are a lot of success stories matched to these success failures, and a lot of the successes are mentioned in the failure synopses. Fate is fickle, and a lot of these stories are career "there but for the grace of god" sorts of stories.
posted by hippybear at 3:32 PM on April 23, 2023 [10 favorites]
If you know it's a mistake, you tend not to make it.
I thought it was a good and interesting list. It wasn't life-changing, but if you're someone a couple of decades younger than me, this could be eye-opening about how things in the current music world are shaped the way they are, or how not knowing that band you just listened to and turned down would be the next big thing, or how trying to catch a current trend can be career suicide.
There are a lot of success stories matched to these success failures, and a lot of the successes are mentioned in the failure synopses. Fate is fickle, and a lot of these stories are career "there but for the grace of god" sorts of stories.
posted by hippybear at 3:32 PM on April 23, 2023 [10 favorites]
It's not a bad list, and important to note that consequences seem to be a major factor in the ranking. There's some placements that aren't perfect (I would've ranked the Metallica/Napster thing higher), but such is the case with all these lists.
posted by May Kasahara at 3:46 PM on April 23, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by May Kasahara at 3:46 PM on April 23, 2023 [5 favorites]
The underage groupies were mostly on purpose.
posted by PennD at 3:49 PM on April 23, 2023 [11 favorites]
posted by PennD at 3:49 PM on April 23, 2023 [11 favorites]
after you skip all that stuff
“If Harvey Weinstein invites you to a private party in the four seasons, don't go”. - Courtney Love.
posted by mhoye at 3:50 PM on April 23, 2023 [18 favorites]
“If Harvey Weinstein invites you to a private party in the four seasons, don't go”. - Courtney Love.
posted by mhoye at 3:50 PM on April 23, 2023 [18 favorites]
Not wanting to ignore all the horrible things rock stars have done with fans of any gender or age across the decades, it's literally right in the text of the FPP that this list is about business decisions. It even acknowledges these other transgressions and says they will not be including them here.
For us to include them here would transgress against the subject of this FPP.
posted by hippybear at 3:52 PM on April 23, 2023 [14 favorites]
For us to include them here would transgress against the subject of this FPP.
posted by hippybear at 3:52 PM on April 23, 2023 [14 favorites]
MetaFilter: transgressing against the subject of the FPP.
posted by zengargoyle at 3:57 PM on April 23, 2023 [43 favorites]
posted by zengargoyle at 3:57 PM on April 23, 2023 [43 favorites]
'Drama' was a pretty good Yes album.
posted by Jessica Savitch's Coke Spoon at 3:57 PM on April 23, 2023 [10 favorites]
posted by Jessica Savitch's Coke Spoon at 3:57 PM on April 23, 2023 [10 favorites]
They broke their own rule at least twice though, hippybear. I don't think we've even seen the Adam Levine career damage yet, at this point it's reputational.
posted by Selena777 at 4:19 PM on April 23, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by Selena777 at 4:19 PM on April 23, 2023 [1 favorite]
Well, I guess we can only sit, wait, and hope for the downfall of Adam Levine's career.
posted by hippybear at 4:23 PM on April 23, 2023 [10 favorites]
posted by hippybear at 4:23 PM on April 23, 2023 [10 favorites]
A number of these seem to be criticizing artists for working outside the comfort zones of their established material. I find that a profoundly depressing view, that basically says the music industry only wants to keep artists in a narrowly defined box and sell new albums that are basically the same as the previous ones.
posted by graymouser at 4:25 PM on April 23, 2023 [15 favorites]
posted by graymouser at 4:25 PM on April 23, 2023 [15 favorites]
I'm surprised Jane's Addiction even made the list at all and sharing space with the likes of The Beatles, The Monkees, The Beach Boys or Pink Floyd.
Even at their peak barely anyone knew who they were outside of LA unless you happened to be into alternative music, and then Ferrel started Lollapalooza, when people started realizing they probably weren't going to top "Nothing's Shocking" and the weird sort of spark and liminal music space they found there.
Part of the problem with Jane's Addiction was that the live shows were mostly horrible hot messes with Ferrel getting way too drunk or high and swanning around the stage chewing up the scenery more than singing, and I never saw a live Janes's Addiction show that ever came close to the studio performances for Nothing's Shocking.
Which in hindsight - and this is pure conjecture, here - may have really been a lot more about the editor, producer and mix engineers who managed to turn what was probably too many hours of live takes and Ferrel's fucking around into something that was a rambling, soaring album that managed to gel into something cohesive and in the right place and time.
And, well, the real reason why they broke up is because Ferrel got greedy and demanded and eventually got an outside cut of the percentage points for Ritual de lo Habitual which was basically strong-armed by their label and recording contract which ended up with an album recorded under protest, and that never goes well.
Sure, Ritual was a strong album with some risky takes and sounds but the spark was totally gone after Lollapalooza started happening and it was pretty clear to fans of Jane's Addiction that that magic wasn't coming back, may have never really been there in the first place and Ferrel's reputation for problematic drama and greed become much more clear to anyone paying attention.
In any case they weren't poised to be, say, Nirvana before Nirvana. That's hilarious retconning nonsense to me.
The alt/darkwave scene was already moving on in a hurry away from and straight up rejecting JA's whole Venice Beach art rock vibe and schtick as being too sexist, too overtly sexual, too cis-het and too much florid mindless self indulgence and just generally too much of the same kind of Led Zeppelin style arena rock megastar antics and tantrums that alternative rock and darkwave music was openly rejecting.
Also, does anyone else here remember Ferrel's ENIT festival trying to stay relevent with that new fangled house and rave music thing, with FSOL's ISDN tour as the headliner? Hooooo boy was that a mess. I saw Moby naked! And I didn't like it at all!
posted by loquacious at 4:34 PM on April 23, 2023 [32 favorites]
Even at their peak barely anyone knew who they were outside of LA unless you happened to be into alternative music, and then Ferrel started Lollapalooza, when people started realizing they probably weren't going to top "Nothing's Shocking" and the weird sort of spark and liminal music space they found there.
Part of the problem with Jane's Addiction was that the live shows were mostly horrible hot messes with Ferrel getting way too drunk or high and swanning around the stage chewing up the scenery more than singing, and I never saw a live Janes's Addiction show that ever came close to the studio performances for Nothing's Shocking.
Which in hindsight - and this is pure conjecture, here - may have really been a lot more about the editor, producer and mix engineers who managed to turn what was probably too many hours of live takes and Ferrel's fucking around into something that was a rambling, soaring album that managed to gel into something cohesive and in the right place and time.
And, well, the real reason why they broke up is because Ferrel got greedy and demanded and eventually got an outside cut of the percentage points for Ritual de lo Habitual which was basically strong-armed by their label and recording contract which ended up with an album recorded under protest, and that never goes well.
Sure, Ritual was a strong album with some risky takes and sounds but the spark was totally gone after Lollapalooza started happening and it was pretty clear to fans of Jane's Addiction that that magic wasn't coming back, may have never really been there in the first place and Ferrel's reputation for problematic drama and greed become much more clear to anyone paying attention.
In any case they weren't poised to be, say, Nirvana before Nirvana. That's hilarious retconning nonsense to me.
The alt/darkwave scene was already moving on in a hurry away from and straight up rejecting JA's whole Venice Beach art rock vibe and schtick as being too sexist, too overtly sexual, too cis-het and too much florid mindless self indulgence and just generally too much of the same kind of Led Zeppelin style arena rock megastar antics and tantrums that alternative rock and darkwave music was openly rejecting.
Also, does anyone else here remember Ferrel's ENIT festival trying to stay relevent with that new fangled house and rave music thing, with FSOL's ISDN tour as the headliner? Hooooo boy was that a mess. I saw Moby naked! And I didn't like it at all!
posted by loquacious at 4:34 PM on April 23, 2023 [32 favorites]
2020 Steven Van Zandt, a millionaire many times over who had an unexpected third act starring on what a lot of people think is the best tv show ever, feeling regretful that he did Artists United Against Apartheid thirty years ago because he could've made more money touring with Springsteen, is hitting me a little bit funny.
posted by box at 4:34 PM on April 23, 2023 [28 favorites]
posted by box at 4:34 PM on April 23, 2023 [28 favorites]
I like Neil Young's album "Trans"
posted by mikelieman at 4:35 PM on April 23, 2023 [16 favorites]
posted by mikelieman at 4:35 PM on April 23, 2023 [16 favorites]
Well, yeah, and Tormato is my favorite Yes album. Liking that thing that nobody else likes doesn't make you cool. I'm not sure what it makes you, really.
posted by hippybear at 4:37 PM on April 23, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by hippybear at 4:37 PM on April 23, 2023 [4 favorites]
I like Neil Young's album "Trans"
I've noticed a change in the consensus on Neil Young in the 1980s. Back in the day, I remember a lot of the heat was directed against Neil Young for fucking around too much along the way to his triumphant comeback with the Freedom LP and "Keep On Rockin' in the Free World." Nowadays, as reflected in the Rolling Stone article, David Geffen is clearly depicted as the villain for not letting Neil Young be Neil Young.
posted by jonp72 at 4:52 PM on April 23, 2023 [4 favorites]
I've noticed a change in the consensus on Neil Young in the 1980s. Back in the day, I remember a lot of the heat was directed against Neil Young for fucking around too much along the way to his triumphant comeback with the Freedom LP and "Keep On Rockin' in the Free World." Nowadays, as reflected in the Rolling Stone article, David Geffen is clearly depicted as the villain for not letting Neil Young be Neil Young.
posted by jonp72 at 4:52 PM on April 23, 2023 [4 favorites]
2020 Steven Van Zandt, a millionaire many times over who had an unexpected third act starring on what a lot of people think is the best tv show ever, feeling regretful that he did Artists United Against Apartheid thirty years ago because he could've made more money touring with Springsteen, is hitting me a little bit funny.That seems a bit uncharitable towards Van Zandt, given that the quote in that section has him explicitly commenting that the financial repercussions for him were substantial but that he does feel like the organization he helped found contributed to shortening the life of the apartheid regime by years. Questioning whether it was worth it, he concludes "Yeah, sure it was," but expresses regret that "'..if only I could’ve done those things and stayed.’ I would’ve had the perfect life.”
So even though I'd rather have had him say "I made a decision and I'm proud of what we accomplished, no regrets" I'm willing to cut Van Zandt some slack on that.
I'm not, however, willing to extend the same to the author of the listicle, who definitely frames the decision as a mistake, especially after the listicle author's racism-minimizing framing in the Clapton section. Eww.
Actually, there's a whole lot of ick in this article. Definitely some discussion-worthy stuff, but I don't think I'd get along at all with the person (people?) who compiled it. I don't expect they'll lose sleep over that, but this is even more problematic, imho, than your average RS content.
posted by Nerd of the North at 4:53 PM on April 23, 2023 [20 favorites]
Liking that thing that nobody else likes doesn't make you cool. I'm not sure what it makes you, really.
To one side or other of the bell curve. Cause a statistical distribution is going to happen. Even if it seems confusing as an anecdote.
posted by Ignorantsavage at 4:57 PM on April 23, 2023 [3 favorites]
To one side or other of the bell curve. Cause a statistical distribution is going to happen. Even if it seems confusing as an anecdote.
posted by Ignorantsavage at 4:57 PM on April 23, 2023 [3 favorites]
‘I knew about Eric Clapton’s public and unrecanted racism, but vaccine conspiracy is too far’
Britta: "I can excuse racism, but I draw the line at animal cruelty."
Shirley: "You can excuse racism?"
posted by leotrotsky at 5:06 PM on April 23, 2023 [33 favorites]
Britta: "I can excuse racism, but I draw the line at animal cruelty."
Shirley: "You can excuse racism?"
posted by leotrotsky at 5:06 PM on April 23, 2023 [33 favorites]
Seems like The Replacements should have made the top 50 but it's somehow true to form that they didn't.
posted by plastic_animals at 5:14 PM on April 23, 2023 [35 favorites]
posted by plastic_animals at 5:14 PM on April 23, 2023 [35 favorites]
That seems a bit uncharitable towards Van Zandt, given that the quote in that section has him explicitly commenting that the financial repercussions for him were substantial but that he does feel like the organization he helped found contributed to shortening the life of the apartheid regime by years. Questioning whether it was worth it, he concludes "Yeah, sure it was," but expresses regret that "'..if only I could’ve done those things and stayed.’ I would’ve had the perfect life.”
My read of Van Zandt is that he wished he could have done both (bring down apartheid & play on the Best. Springsteen. Tour. Ever.), but that his circumstances in the 1980s compelled him to make a choice of one over the other. I don't think he's regretful at losing out on money. I just think he's regretful that he couldn't have his cake and eat it too.
According Little Stevie's reminiscences of his anti-apartheid activism, he was tight enough with the armed wing of the African National Congress that he convinced the ANC to stop plans to assassinate Paul Simon. I can imagine what the "hot takes" on that would be.
posted by jonp72 at 5:24 PM on April 23, 2023 [10 favorites]
My read of Van Zandt is that he wished he could have done both (bring down apartheid & play on the Best. Springsteen. Tour. Ever.), but that his circumstances in the 1980s compelled him to make a choice of one over the other. I don't think he's regretful at losing out on money. I just think he's regretful that he couldn't have his cake and eat it too.
According Little Stevie's reminiscences of his anti-apartheid activism, he was tight enough with the armed wing of the African National Congress that he convinced the ANC to stop plans to assassinate Paul Simon. I can imagine what the "hot takes" on that would be.
posted by jonp72 at 5:24 PM on April 23, 2023 [10 favorites]
The lesson I took away from this list: don’t fuck with Taylor Swift.
posted by lunasol at 5:30 PM on April 23, 2023 [29 favorites]
posted by lunasol at 5:30 PM on April 23, 2023 [29 favorites]
17 The Bee Gees and Peter Frampton make a film version of ‘Sgt. Pepper’s Lonely Hearts Club Band’
HARD DISAGREE.
posted by alex_skazat at 5:30 PM on April 23, 2023 [8 favorites]
HARD DISAGREE.
posted by alex_skazat at 5:30 PM on April 23, 2023 [8 favorites]
I don't know, but I think REM deciding to sign an umpty billion dollar contract just as they're going into commercial decline sounds like they made a genuinely spectacular business decision.
posted by Joey Michaels at 5:31 PM on April 23, 2023 [66 favorites]
posted by Joey Michaels at 5:31 PM on April 23, 2023 [66 favorites]
chrissie hyde firing martin chambers from the pretenders.
heart's total lineup change in the early 80s.
the dead trying cocaine.
strummer breaking up the clash.
posted by j_curiouser at 5:34 PM on April 23, 2023 [9 favorites]
heart's total lineup change in the early 80s.
the dead trying cocaine.
strummer breaking up the clash.
posted by j_curiouser at 5:34 PM on April 23, 2023 [9 favorites]
17 The Bee Gees and Peter Frampton make a film version of ‘Sgt. Pepper’s Lonely Hearts Club Band’
HARD DISAGREE.
I'm sorry, this is not the land of alternative facts. They actually did make this movie.
posted by hippybear at 5:34 PM on April 23, 2023 [26 favorites]
HARD DISAGREE.
I'm sorry, this is not the land of alternative facts. They actually did make this movie.
posted by hippybear at 5:34 PM on April 23, 2023 [26 favorites]
Even at their peak barely anyone knew who they were outside of LA unless you happened to be into alternative music, and then Ferrel started Lollapalooza, when people started realizing they probably weren't going to top "Nothing's Shocking" and the weird sort of spark and liminal music space they found there.
I worked in a record store in this period — in Toronto — and can say that this is pretty much false. Nothing's Shocking and Ritual both sold a shit-ton here. Lolla wasn't until almost a year after Ritual.
In addition, Dave Grohl is on record talking about the impact of the tour and that it was at that first Lollapalooza that he and Cobain knew Nirvana was going to be big. They were at the July gig in LA. Nevermind came out two months later.
posted by dobbs at 5:40 PM on April 23, 2023 [27 favorites]
I worked in a record store in this period — in Toronto — and can say that this is pretty much false. Nothing's Shocking and Ritual both sold a shit-ton here. Lolla wasn't until almost a year after Ritual.
In addition, Dave Grohl is on record talking about the impact of the tour and that it was at that first Lollapalooza that he and Cobain knew Nirvana was going to be big. They were at the July gig in LA. Nevermind came out two months later.
posted by dobbs at 5:40 PM on April 23, 2023 [27 favorites]
Making Head would be the moment that would give the Monkees the ultimate credibility... in the long run. They were never going to survive much further whether they made the movie or not.
Had they not done the movie, they would have been remembered more akin to the Banana Splits than a capable creative act.
posted by 2N2222 at 5:56 PM on April 23, 2023 [32 favorites]
Had they not done the movie, they would have been remembered more akin to the Banana Splits than a capable creative act.
posted by 2N2222 at 5:56 PM on April 23, 2023 [32 favorites]
I know the guy that hosted Taylor Swift's website during the early years and right after the Kanye/MTV incident he sent me a graph showing the massive spike in traffic.
You can righteously dump on West for his stupid stunt, but IMO the incident more importantly lit a rocket booster under Swift's career.
posted by mookoz at 6:17 PM on April 23, 2023 [8 favorites]
You can righteously dump on West for his stupid stunt, but IMO the incident more importantly lit a rocket booster under Swift's career.
posted by mookoz at 6:17 PM on April 23, 2023 [8 favorites]
Also, rightly and wrongly, Public Enemy are very lucky not to have made it onto this list a couple of times.
posted by Fiasco da Gama at 6:37 PM on April 23, 2023 [12 favorites]
posted by Fiasco da Gama at 6:37 PM on April 23, 2023 [12 favorites]
But Warner Bros. didn’t know that founding drummer Bill Berry was about to leave the band.
"Leave the band" is a fairly indirect way to describe having a brain aneurysm on stage (and of course they didn't know it was coming.)
posted by anhedonic at 6:40 PM on April 23, 2023 [31 favorites]
"Leave the band" is a fairly indirect way to describe having a brain aneurysm on stage (and of course they didn't know it was coming.)
posted by anhedonic at 6:40 PM on April 23, 2023 [31 favorites]
Okay but, I mean, pragmatically, can this list even exist w/o inclusion of "We Built This City"?
posted by thecincinnatikid at 6:44 PM on April 23, 2023 [18 favorites]
posted by thecincinnatikid at 6:44 PM on April 23, 2023 [18 favorites]
Self linking the worst music biz decision I've ever heard of.
posted by Sauce Trough at 6:48 PM on April 23, 2023 [13 favorites]
posted by Sauce Trough at 6:48 PM on April 23, 2023 [13 favorites]
while we built this city is a sewer of broken creativity and corruption, i still hear that shit in safeway and the dentist office, and they get a royalty for it every goddamn time.
posted by j_curiouser at 7:05 PM on April 23, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by j_curiouser at 7:05 PM on April 23, 2023 [4 favorites]
2020 Steven Van Zandt, a millionaire many times over who had an unexpected third act starring on what a lot of people think is the best tv show ever
Man, I had no idea Lillyhammer was that popular.
posted by Runes at 7:16 PM on April 23, 2023 [20 favorites]
Man, I had no idea Lillyhammer was that popular.
posted by Runes at 7:16 PM on April 23, 2023 [20 favorites]
I worked in a record store in this period — in Toronto — and can say that this is pretty much false. Nothing's Shocking and Ritual both sold a shit-ton here. Lolla wasn't until almost a year after Ritual.
Sure, they sold a lot of records. I bought Ritual, and so did a lot of my peers. It was ok but didn't grab me the same way Nothing's Shocking did.
Also maybe part of our difference in perspectives is local in that the interest and fanbase was already starting to fade in LA before Ritual came out due to how many lackluster shows we'd seen and the rep Ferrel in particular was getting about the live show. He was developing quite the bad rep even before Ritual was released.
Anyway, I didn't say they were unknown, but are arguably one more obscure bands on this list and it's on the list for a weird pretense and framing like they broke up and missed the rise of grunge as a business decision. No one I knew considered them to be grunge like Nirvana or Sonic Youth, or even The Pixies, so that wasn't really even on the table.
If you knew who Jane's Addiction was in, say, 1988-1991 ish you probably also already knew who The Pixies were, and Sonic Youth, and Nirvana, and many more. Not to mention Siouxie, and Bauhaus, and NIN and Killing Joke and a whole zoo of staples of alt/darkwave music. If so, this hypothetical alt/darkwave fan that knew about Jane's Addiction outside of LA is exactly the sort of person my "unless you happened to be into alternative music" was for. Everyone I knew who knew who JA was was already listening to Nirvana because Bleach was huge.
Saying that Jane's Addiction could have become the frontrunners or grandparents of grunge is just about as weird and wrong as saying Vanilla Ice missed out on being a founder of, I don't know, gangster rap or something. It's such a stretch that it's almost like saying Jesus Jones or Dee-Lite missed out on being a founder of techno or house music.
I'm struggling for a really good metaphor, here, but I think you get the idea. They weren't really even in the same wheelhouse.
posted by loquacious at 8:13 PM on April 23, 2023 [6 favorites]
Sure, they sold a lot of records. I bought Ritual, and so did a lot of my peers. It was ok but didn't grab me the same way Nothing's Shocking did.
Also maybe part of our difference in perspectives is local in that the interest and fanbase was already starting to fade in LA before Ritual came out due to how many lackluster shows we'd seen and the rep Ferrel in particular was getting about the live show. He was developing quite the bad rep even before Ritual was released.
Anyway, I didn't say they were unknown, but are arguably one more obscure bands on this list and it's on the list for a weird pretense and framing like they broke up and missed the rise of grunge as a business decision. No one I knew considered them to be grunge like Nirvana or Sonic Youth, or even The Pixies, so that wasn't really even on the table.
If you knew who Jane's Addiction was in, say, 1988-1991 ish you probably also already knew who The Pixies were, and Sonic Youth, and Nirvana, and many more. Not to mention Siouxie, and Bauhaus, and NIN and Killing Joke and a whole zoo of staples of alt/darkwave music. If so, this hypothetical alt/darkwave fan that knew about Jane's Addiction outside of LA is exactly the sort of person my "unless you happened to be into alternative music" was for. Everyone I knew who knew who JA was was already listening to Nirvana because Bleach was huge.
Saying that Jane's Addiction could have become the frontrunners or grandparents of grunge is just about as weird and wrong as saying Vanilla Ice missed out on being a founder of, I don't know, gangster rap or something. It's such a stretch that it's almost like saying Jesus Jones or Dee-Lite missed out on being a founder of techno or house music.
I'm struggling for a really good metaphor, here, but I think you get the idea. They weren't really even in the same wheelhouse.
posted by loquacious at 8:13 PM on April 23, 2023 [6 favorites]
I don't think it's preposterous to think that Jane's Addiction opened the doors for Nirvana. I know the video for Been Caught Stealing was all over MTV to the point where I didn't ever want to see it again. I don't think I'd heard of them much before that song hit, and mostly knew of them by reputation and the existence of Lollapalooza after that. The only time they really surfaced for me outside of that video was on the NIN/JA tour many decades later.
I hadn't thought of JA as being porto-grunge, but for someone who wasn't living in LA and who hadn't been bombarded by reports of bad concerts and moved on to something somehow cooler than what MTV was pushing at us constantly, they were an important band for a while.
posted by hippybear at 8:31 PM on April 23, 2023 [8 favorites]
I hadn't thought of JA as being porto-grunge, but for someone who wasn't living in LA and who hadn't been bombarded by reports of bad concerts and moved on to something somehow cooler than what MTV was pushing at us constantly, they were an important band for a while.
posted by hippybear at 8:31 PM on April 23, 2023 [8 favorites]
Ground zero for this should be having Colonel Tom Parker as your manager. Elvis should have at least dumped that grifter when he got back out of the army.
posted by Ber at 8:33 PM on April 23, 2023 [14 favorites]
posted by Ber at 8:33 PM on April 23, 2023 [14 favorites]
Yeah the Steve Van Zandt one is full of WTF. Yeah I guess it’s possible that he still would have gone on to play a major role on one of the most acclaimed TV series of all time had he not quit the E Street Band, but there are so many butterfly effect variables in there, it’s easy to see that never happening. Would he really prefer to live in that reality? Instead of the timeline where he has one of the best second act stories in modern entertainment history? Does he really not have enough money from his work on the Sopranos to last the rest of his life? Or is this just one of those situations where “enough” never seems like “enough?”
posted by panama joe at 8:35 PM on April 23, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by panama joe at 8:35 PM on April 23, 2023 [3 favorites]
> 17 The Bee Gees and Peter Frampton make a film version of ‘Sgt. Pepper’s Lonely Hearts Club Band’ HARD DISAGREE.
I'm sorry, this is not the land of alternative facts. They actually did make this movie.
I got the sense the "hard disagree" might have been a disgreement with the notion that this was a bad film. (Happy to be corrected if I'm mistaken, though.)
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 8:40 PM on April 23, 2023 [3 favorites]
I'm sorry, this is not the land of alternative facts. They actually did make this movie.
I got the sense the "hard disagree" might have been a disgreement with the notion that this was a bad film. (Happy to be corrected if I'm mistaken, though.)
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 8:40 PM on April 23, 2023 [3 favorites]
Jokes are not funny if you have to explain them.
posted by hippybear at 8:42 PM on April 23, 2023 [15 favorites]
posted by hippybear at 8:42 PM on April 23, 2023 [15 favorites]
> Knight did many worse things in his life than this quick moment onstage, but none had consequences quite as tragically awful.
I mean, he's in prison because he ran over a couple guys and killed one of them. He didn't kill 2pac or biggie, and that was a much larger and stupider beef than just him talking shit at the source awards.
From wiki
>> On January 29, 2015, Knight crashed his car into two men, killing Terry Carter (his friend and co-founder of Heavyweight Records), and fled the scene in Compton, California. The second victim, filmmaker Cle Sloan, suffered multiple fractures in his ankles and head injuries. Witnesses said Knight followed the men to a burger stand parking lot after an argument on the Straight Outta Compton film set, and that the collision looked intentional. Security footage video showed Knight running over both men. Knight said he acted in self-defense.
But yeah, if this yet another rolling stone troll list, then whatever. ChatGPT can't replace these people quick enough.
posted by lkc at 8:56 PM on April 23, 2023 [3 favorites]
I mean, he's in prison because he ran over a couple guys and killed one of them. He didn't kill 2pac or biggie, and that was a much larger and stupider beef than just him talking shit at the source awards.
From wiki
>> On January 29, 2015, Knight crashed his car into two men, killing Terry Carter (his friend and co-founder of Heavyweight Records), and fled the scene in Compton, California. The second victim, filmmaker Cle Sloan, suffered multiple fractures in his ankles and head injuries. Witnesses said Knight followed the men to a burger stand parking lot after an argument on the Straight Outta Compton film set, and that the collision looked intentional. Security footage video showed Knight running over both men. Knight said he acted in self-defense.
But yeah, if this yet another rolling stone troll list, then whatever. ChatGPT can't replace these people quick enough.
posted by lkc at 8:56 PM on April 23, 2023 [3 favorites]
Also:
> U2 give their new album away for free in iTunes
No, U2 forced their shitty album on everyone who had iTunes. That's not like it was a career killing move or anything, because people still listen to U2, evidenced by whatever the hell that cover album thing they're doing is.
Bono, however couldn't imagine that someone wouldn't want to listen to U2, so that seemed like a good idea.
Jay-Z did a similar thing with ... i dunno samsung or whatever, where he pushed a million copies of some album he made where he paid for them and just immediately go platinum.
Not a fan of either, but I figured a bunch of sellouts like Rolling Stone would at least appreciate the marketing acumen.
posted by lkc at 9:04 PM on April 23, 2023 [7 favorites]
> U2 give their new album away for free in iTunes
No, U2 forced their shitty album on everyone who had iTunes. That's not like it was a career killing move or anything, because people still listen to U2, evidenced by whatever the hell that cover album thing they're doing is.
Bono, however couldn't imagine that someone wouldn't want to listen to U2, so that seemed like a good idea.
Jay-Z did a similar thing with ... i dunno samsung or whatever, where he pushed a million copies of some album he made where he paid for them and just immediately go platinum.
Not a fan of either, but I figured a bunch of sellouts like Rolling Stone would at least appreciate the marketing acumen.
posted by lkc at 9:04 PM on April 23, 2023 [7 favorites]
I tend to think having The KLF set a million pounds on fire rather than do literally anything else with it is one of the most deeply selfish things a rock band has done, but I guess that I'm talking about it after (checks watch) 30 years means they got their money's worth
Why on earth is it selfish? they didn't get anything out of it, quite the opposite.
If you read about it (john higgs book is excellent) they are still a little puzzled why they did it themselves but there's no question it was something they felt artistically compelled to do, and like you say, we're still talking about it. How many other ways of a rockband spending a million quid can you say that about?
posted by Sebmojo at 9:07 PM on April 23, 2023 [9 favorites]
Why on earth is it selfish? they didn't get anything out of it, quite the opposite.
If you read about it (john higgs book is excellent) they are still a little puzzled why they did it themselves but there's no question it was something they felt artistically compelled to do, and like you say, we're still talking about it. How many other ways of a rockband spending a million quid can you say that about?
posted by Sebmojo at 9:07 PM on April 23, 2023 [9 favorites]
U2 give their new album away for free in iTunes
Honestly I still don’t understand why this was such a big deal. Maybe I was too far outside the hipsterati to know why I should be properly offended? Or maybe it’s because I never used iTunes? But I never got why it was so offensive to give away a free album. I mean, couldn’t people just … not listen to it? Is it just because it was such a nakedly commercial marketing stunt? To … give away free music? Was it because U2 had already made the transition to dad rock, but nobody had bothered to tell them yet? Even the blurb in the OP doesn’t properly explain the outrage to me. And I was there at the time!
posted by panama joe at 9:26 PM on April 23, 2023 [5 favorites]
Honestly I still don’t understand why this was such a big deal. Maybe I was too far outside the hipsterati to know why I should be properly offended? Or maybe it’s because I never used iTunes? But I never got why it was so offensive to give away a free album. I mean, couldn’t people just … not listen to it? Is it just because it was such a nakedly commercial marketing stunt? To … give away free music? Was it because U2 had already made the transition to dad rock, but nobody had bothered to tell them yet? Even the blurb in the OP doesn’t properly explain the outrage to me. And I was there at the time!
posted by panama joe at 9:26 PM on April 23, 2023 [5 favorites]
Honestly I still don’t understand why this was such a big deal. Maybe I was too far outside the hipsterati to know why I should be properly offended?
I think the outrage was that it just appeared out of nowhere in your music library. There was no “Hey! U2 wants you to have their new album for free! Click if you want it added to your library!” message. It just appeared one day, which was a huuuuuge privacy misstep on Apple’s part. Should have been an opt-in offer, and, to this day, I’m kind of perplexed no one at Apple seemed to have understood that.
posted by Thorzdad at 9:40 PM on April 23, 2023 [34 favorites]
I think the outrage was that it just appeared out of nowhere in your music library. There was no “Hey! U2 wants you to have their new album for free! Click if you want it added to your library!” message. It just appeared one day, which was a huuuuuge privacy misstep on Apple’s part. Should have been an opt-in offer, and, to this day, I’m kind of perplexed no one at Apple seemed to have understood that.
posted by Thorzdad at 9:40 PM on April 23, 2023 [34 favorites]
But like … why the actual anger though? What harm were they causing? Were there still enough people on dial-up in … 2014? … that folks were concerned about the download eating up their bandwidth?
posted by panama joe at 9:43 PM on April 23, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by panama joe at 9:43 PM on April 23, 2023 [1 favorite]
I was waiting for Kanye on here, but it's listed as: Kanye West kicks off his “total asshole” era by interrupting Taylor Swift at the VMAs. Which, yes, but "Kanye comes out as a Nazi, loses virtually all of his business whatsoever" is SO bad it should have been somewhere around the top, all by itself.
Never knew about Bowie(!) having a Nazi moment, though?
posted by jenfullmoon at 9:52 PM on April 23, 2023 [7 favorites]
Never knew about Bowie(!) having a Nazi moment, though?
posted by jenfullmoon at 9:52 PM on April 23, 2023 [7 favorites]
RE: U2 and Apple --
I don't know that it *was* that big of a deal, but it was stupid. The whole thing with iTunes / Apple Music / whatever-it-was-called-at-the-time was that YOU could choose YOUR LIBRARY of music. I had a finely curated selection of electronica and indie guitar music and suddenly U2 showed up in my library. My dad had NO MUSIC on his phone because he doesn't use it for that and he suddenly had a single U2 album in there.
They could have confined it to people who already had downloaded at least one U2 song, they have that kind of data. Or just made it opt-in instead of opt out.
Think of it like this: suppose Kroger decided that they were so excited about the new Cheetos flavor that they decided to give every customer a package for free, and they way they did that was to just stick one in your bag as you left the store. It would have been in the news as "Angry Customers Litter Spicy Cheetos All Over Parking Lots".
Mostly it just struck me as tone-deaf marketing. Apple's core group of fans weren't even the U2 demographic, so it landed wrong. And the fact it was automatically downloaded to your phone (if you had the default settings) was an imposition. If they had just said "Everyone can get U2's new album for free on iTunes just by going to this website!" then everybody would have eagerly gone there, even a bunch of non-U2 fans because it was free, and everything would have been fine.
posted by mmoncur at 10:03 PM on April 23, 2023 [19 favorites]
I don't know that it *was* that big of a deal, but it was stupid. The whole thing with iTunes / Apple Music / whatever-it-was-called-at-the-time was that YOU could choose YOUR LIBRARY of music. I had a finely curated selection of electronica and indie guitar music and suddenly U2 showed up in my library. My dad had NO MUSIC on his phone because he doesn't use it for that and he suddenly had a single U2 album in there.
They could have confined it to people who already had downloaded at least one U2 song, they have that kind of data. Or just made it opt-in instead of opt out.
Think of it like this: suppose Kroger decided that they were so excited about the new Cheetos flavor that they decided to give every customer a package for free, and they way they did that was to just stick one in your bag as you left the store. It would have been in the news as "Angry Customers Litter Spicy Cheetos All Over Parking Lots".
Mostly it just struck me as tone-deaf marketing. Apple's core group of fans weren't even the U2 demographic, so it landed wrong. And the fact it was automatically downloaded to your phone (if you had the default settings) was an imposition. If they had just said "Everyone can get U2's new album for free on iTunes just by going to this website!" then everybody would have eagerly gone there, even a bunch of non-U2 fans because it was free, and everything would have been fine.
posted by mmoncur at 10:03 PM on April 23, 2023 [19 favorites]
Right on — thanks for the explanation! In the end, I think I’m gonna have to file this under “I didn’t get the controversy because I wasn’t an iTunes user.”
posted by panama joe at 10:09 PM on April 23, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by panama joe at 10:09 PM on April 23, 2023 [2 favorites]
But like … why the actual anger though
Memory is fuzzy, but I seem to remember Bono going through some thought process that he was the savior of the free world, so there was I think a special edition of the iPod that featured U2 in it in some way (already came with like: their entire discography?) while also having some of the money of the iPod sale going towards Bono's pet non-profit. It's hard to imagine, but even when it was all essentially a good thing, it fed into this insatiable desire for Bono to be seen as almost Jesus-like and needing to have his art be a part of it all and it was so so cringe.
Or something like that.
posted by alex_skazat at 10:11 PM on April 23, 2023 [5 favorites]
Memory is fuzzy, but I seem to remember Bono going through some thought process that he was the savior of the free world, so there was I think a special edition of the iPod that featured U2 in it in some way (already came with like: their entire discography?) while also having some of the money of the iPod sale going towards Bono's pet non-profit. It's hard to imagine, but even when it was all essentially a good thing, it fed into this insatiable desire for Bono to be seen as almost Jesus-like and needing to have his art be a part of it all and it was so so cringe.
Or something like that.
posted by alex_skazat at 10:11 PM on April 23, 2023 [5 favorites]
It's hard to imagine, but even when it was all essentially a good thing, it fed into this insatiable desire for Bono to be seen as almost Jesus-like and needing to have his art be a part of it all and it was so so cringe.
… also filed under, “had transitioned to dad rock but nobody had bothered to tell them yet” ;)
posted by panama joe at 10:23 PM on April 23, 2023 [6 favorites]
… also filed under, “had transitioned to dad rock but nobody had bothered to tell them yet” ;)
posted by panama joe at 10:23 PM on April 23, 2023 [6 favorites]
I know the video for Been Caught Stealing was all over MTV to the point where I didn't ever want to see it again.
And "Jane Says" before that. I only had access to the most anodyne of indie rock (I did listen to the wild local DJ who understood the profound links between house and rap, but he didn't have much use for white rockers, so for me mostly it was MTV), and I knew who they were. Maybe you think Farrell is a big lame-o or whatever, but the idea that they were just some over-as-soon-as-they-began obscure LA band isn't right.
posted by praemunire at 10:24 PM on April 23, 2023 [14 favorites]
And "Jane Says" before that. I only had access to the most anodyne of indie rock (I did listen to the wild local DJ who understood the profound links between house and rap, but he didn't have much use for white rockers, so for me mostly it was MTV), and I knew who they were. Maybe you think Farrell is a big lame-o or whatever, but the idea that they were just some over-as-soon-as-they-began obscure LA band isn't right.
posted by praemunire at 10:24 PM on April 23, 2023 [14 favorites]
But like … why the actual anger though?
Yeah, I can tell you that from the inside, that was my reaction too.
I had just gotten acqui-hired a few months before, and that sort of marketing (obviously not at the same scale, but... you know the bands.) was a common service we provided. Although that technology was not part of our acquisition.
But, we did that shit all the time, and people generally loved it. But Apple does the same thing, to basically the same people, and everyone loses their goddamn minds.
In my personal opinion (and definitely not representing the possible opinion of my employer), the true miscalculation was about how people still used their music library as "advertising" for their personality. 8 months later we launched Apple Music and this whole situation was moot. Then every U2 album was in their pocket, along with just about every other artist. We were so heads down on inventing the future, we lost track of the cohort of people still stuck in ways that were imminently going to be seen as quant and old-fashioned. I actually had to go look up the timeline, since I had remembered the "mootness" happening with a couple weeks, but I guess it was 8 months.
The irony is that the whole exercise was mostly a successful test run of related functionality. The music stuff was incidental, and happened because of serendipitous scheduling with Island Records marketing department.
posted by Back At It Again At Krispy Kreme at 10:29 PM on April 23, 2023 [7 favorites]
Yeah, I can tell you that from the inside, that was my reaction too.
I had just gotten acqui-hired a few months before, and that sort of marketing (obviously not at the same scale, but... you know the bands.) was a common service we provided. Although that technology was not part of our acquisition.
But, we did that shit all the time, and people generally loved it. But Apple does the same thing, to basically the same people, and everyone loses their goddamn minds.
In my personal opinion (and definitely not representing the possible opinion of my employer), the true miscalculation was about how people still used their music library as "advertising" for their personality. 8 months later we launched Apple Music and this whole situation was moot. Then every U2 album was in their pocket, along with just about every other artist. We were so heads down on inventing the future, we lost track of the cohort of people still stuck in ways that were imminently going to be seen as quant and old-fashioned. I actually had to go look up the timeline, since I had remembered the "mootness" happening with a couple weeks, but I guess it was 8 months.
The irony is that the whole exercise was mostly a successful test run of related functionality. The music stuff was incidental, and happened because of serendipitous scheduling with Island Records marketing department.
posted by Back At It Again At Krispy Kreme at 10:29 PM on April 23, 2023 [7 favorites]
Why on earth is it selfish? they didn't get anything out of it, quite the opposite.
"everyone said just give the money to poor people instead, but when the usual rock star buys seven swimming pools, nobody bats an eye"
posted by ovvl at 10:39 PM on April 23, 2023 [3 favorites]
"everyone said just give the money to poor people instead, but when the usual rock star buys seven swimming pools, nobody bats an eye"
posted by ovvl at 10:39 PM on April 23, 2023 [3 favorites]
The whole thing with iTunes / Apple Music / whatever-it-was-called-at-the-time was that YOU could choose YOUR LIBRARY of music...
So, was that around when iTunes started dicking around with our music libraries and not updating older song files, hoping that we would have to buy them all over again?
posted by ovvl at 10:48 PM on April 23, 2023 [2 favorites]
So, was that around when iTunes started dicking around with our music libraries and not updating older song files, hoping that we would have to buy them all over again?
posted by ovvl at 10:48 PM on April 23, 2023 [2 favorites]
strummer breaking up the clash.
More like Strummer firing Mick Jones instead of Bernie Rhodes (or at least not kicking the latter out as well). Though to be fair, Jones didn't sound like the easiest person to work with. (I assume the situation with everyone but Jones later walking out of Big Audio Dynamite wasn't entirely amicable).
posted by gtrwolf at 11:21 PM on April 23, 2023 [4 favorites]
More like Strummer firing Mick Jones instead of Bernie Rhodes (or at least not kicking the latter out as well). Though to be fair, Jones didn't sound like the easiest person to work with. (I assume the situation with everyone but Jones later walking out of Big Audio Dynamite wasn't entirely amicable).
posted by gtrwolf at 11:21 PM on April 23, 2023 [4 favorites]
Jokes are not funny if you have to explain them.
I mean I get to laugh twice so . . .
posted by Carillon at 11:27 PM on April 23, 2023 [4 favorites]
I mean I get to laugh twice so . . .
posted by Carillon at 11:27 PM on April 23, 2023 [4 favorites]
Probably too far below RS's radar, but other contenders would be:
Discharge going hair-metal for Grave New World
Bad Religion going prog for Into the Unknown
(Insert band here) going (musical genre they probably shouldn't have touched) for (infamous album said band doesn't like to talk about nowadays)
Also: any band/club that ever decided it would be a good idea to set off fireworks/sparklers indoors. (Great White might be the most obvious example, but they're not the only offenders).
posted by gtrwolf at 11:36 PM on April 23, 2023 [3 favorites]
Discharge going hair-metal for Grave New World
Bad Religion going prog for Into the Unknown
(Insert band here) going (musical genre they probably shouldn't have touched) for (infamous album said band doesn't like to talk about nowadays)
Also: any band/club that ever decided it would be a good idea to set off fireworks/sparklers indoors. (Great White might be the most obvious example, but they're not the only offenders).
posted by gtrwolf at 11:36 PM on April 23, 2023 [3 favorites]
^FFlorenceHm..
^FblackfaceOkay, I'd have expected that Florence and the Machine blackface video to make the top ten, personally. But sure, Sid Vicious doomed the Sex Pistols to obscurity and the "bigger than Jesus" comment is why we've never heard of The Beatles. Go with that.
posted by rum-soaked space hobo at 12:12 AM on April 24, 2023 [4 favorites]
Okay, I'd have expected that Florence and the Machine blackface video to make the top ten, personally. But sure, Sid Vicious doomed the Sex Pistols to obscurity and the "bigger than Jesus" comment is why we've never heard of The Beatles. Go with that.
From a business point of view, that video had no impact whatsoever on her career so it would be an odd inclusion for a top 50.
The bigger than Jesus thing is weird though, I really don't think that's why they stopped touring and The Beatles remained extremely successful after that.
posted by atrazine at 12:46 AM on April 24, 2023 [2 favorites]
From a business point of view, that video had no impact whatsoever on her career so it would be an odd inclusion for a top 50.
The bigger than Jesus thing is weird though, I really don't think that's why they stopped touring and The Beatles remained extremely successful after that.
posted by atrazine at 12:46 AM on April 24, 2023 [2 favorites]
Also: any band/club that ever decided it would be a good idea to set off fireworks/sparklers indoors. (Great White might be the most obvious example, but they're not the only offenders).
Ha no way - Crash Worship used to essentially light half the venue on fire while having sex on stage and throwing out drugs and they were complete LEGENDS.
but let's be honest Rolling Stone never covered something as messed up as Crash Worship.
posted by alex_skazat at 12:57 AM on April 24, 2023 [12 favorites]
Ha no way - Crash Worship used to essentially light half the venue on fire while having sex on stage and throwing out drugs and they were complete LEGENDS.
but let's be honest Rolling Stone never covered something as messed up as Crash Worship.
posted by alex_skazat at 12:57 AM on April 24, 2023 [12 favorites]
I don't think it's preposterous to think that Jane's Addiction opened the doors for Nirvana. I know the video for Been Caught Stealing was all over MTV to the point where I didn't ever want to see it again.
Jane Says was all over the radio - I remember listening to it on the same station that would play Madonna and Salt-N-Pepa (95.something KISS FM - every city had one), it was that mainstream. I also remember understanding it was about selling your body, and drugs, dysfunctional relationships, and lots of real adult type of subject matter and I was like 9. I also remember crying while listening to it.
I dunno if they would have ever gained critical success of Nirvana tho. It was basically proven that Dave Navarro couldn't hack it as a rock star rock star with his tenue with the Peppers being pretty uh: well, drugs and all.
posted by alex_skazat at 1:03 AM on April 24, 2023 [7 favorites]
Jane Says was all over the radio - I remember listening to it on the same station that would play Madonna and Salt-N-Pepa (95.something KISS FM - every city had one), it was that mainstream. I also remember understanding it was about selling your body, and drugs, dysfunctional relationships, and lots of real adult type of subject matter and I was like 9. I also remember crying while listening to it.
I dunno if they would have ever gained critical success of Nirvana tho. It was basically proven that Dave Navarro couldn't hack it as a rock star rock star with his tenue with the Peppers being pretty uh: well, drugs and all.
posted by alex_skazat at 1:03 AM on April 24, 2023 [7 favorites]
Ha no way - Crash Worship yt used to essentially light half the venue on fire while having sex on stage and throwing out drugs and they were complete LEGENDS.
Thank you so much for remembering Crash Worship. I feel so seen.
(seriously though, if not for the very occasional reference in places like this, I would almost think I dreamed them or something)
posted by panama joe at 1:09 AM on April 24, 2023 [9 favorites]
Thank you so much for remembering Crash Worship. I feel so seen.
(seriously though, if not for the very occasional reference in places like this, I would almost think I dreamed them or something)
posted by panama joe at 1:09 AM on April 24, 2023 [9 favorites]
For a certain type of person, Jane’s Addiction was a foundational band. They were never my jam, though I liked a few of their songs.
My main memory of that is how a bunch of MTV UK/Europe VJs absolutely loved them, and would just randomly drop an old video of theirs into shows. I will say that these fans also pushed Porno for Pyros’ first album pretty hard, which introduced me to Pets which is a song I still love.
MTV UK/Europe was really strange in the old days. As far as I can tell, looking back, is that it was largely staffed by people who’d grown up reading the NME, so they would do things like premiere the video for Pavement’s Stereo on prime time, and reduce the TV debut of the Spice Girls to a brief cameo at like eleven o’clock at night.
posted by Kattullus at 1:22 AM on April 24, 2023 [4 favorites]
My main memory of that is how a bunch of MTV UK/Europe VJs absolutely loved them, and would just randomly drop an old video of theirs into shows. I will say that these fans also pushed Porno for Pyros’ first album pretty hard, which introduced me to Pets which is a song I still love.
MTV UK/Europe was really strange in the old days. As far as I can tell, looking back, is that it was largely staffed by people who’d grown up reading the NME, so they would do things like premiere the video for Pavement’s Stereo on prime time, and reduce the TV debut of the Spice Girls to a brief cameo at like eleven o’clock at night.
posted by Kattullus at 1:22 AM on April 24, 2023 [4 favorites]
Saying that Jane's Addiction could have become the frontrunners or grandparents of grunge
Maybe not grunge but in an alternate universe, I could see a plausible reality where alternative music centered around LA circa 1988-90 rather than Seattle. Every moderately hip teenager I knew in that era (I was on widely distributed BBSes at the time, so probably a wider than average sweep) was aware of and a fan of Jane's and if they'd kept their act together and Sublime had hit the big time a little earlier, things might have been different. Killing Joke, Nirvana ripoff aside, were never going to be a big hit. But if Sublime had written Badfish or What I've Got a few years earlier..
I tend to think having The KLF set a million pounds on fire rather than do literally anything else with it is one of the most deeply selfish things a rock band has done
Fleetwood Mac famously put roughly the same amount of money in coke up their and their hangers-on noses in the late 70s and the art we got out of it was Tusk, which I like to think is less notable than the KLF.
I promise you that other musicians have spent absurd amounts of money on self gratification. At least the KLF burned money to make a point.
posted by Candleman at 1:26 AM on April 24, 2023 [7 favorites]
Maybe not grunge but in an alternate universe, I could see a plausible reality where alternative music centered around LA circa 1988-90 rather than Seattle. Every moderately hip teenager I knew in that era (I was on widely distributed BBSes at the time, so probably a wider than average sweep) was aware of and a fan of Jane's and if they'd kept their act together and Sublime had hit the big time a little earlier, things might have been different. Killing Joke, Nirvana ripoff aside, were never going to be a big hit. But if Sublime had written Badfish or What I've Got a few years earlier..
I tend to think having The KLF set a million pounds on fire rather than do literally anything else with it is one of the most deeply selfish things a rock band has done
Fleetwood Mac famously put roughly the same amount of money in coke up their and their hangers-on noses in the late 70s and the art we got out of it was Tusk, which I like to think is less notable than the KLF.
I promise you that other musicians have spent absurd amounts of money on self gratification. At least the KLF burned money to make a point.
posted by Candleman at 1:26 AM on April 24, 2023 [7 favorites]
in re Jane's Addiction, I used to have a dog that would start barking as soon as she heard the first chords of "Been Caught Stealing," in anticipation of all the dog barking that's heard right thereafter. It was really funny. She didn't seem to care much for the rest of the album, or at least never barked at any of the rest of it.
posted by chavenet at 1:27 AM on April 24, 2023 [36 favorites]
posted by chavenet at 1:27 AM on April 24, 2023 [36 favorites]
Having thought about it a bit, I do feel like there’s a bit of recency bias in this list, because otherwise how could they have possibly overlooked Chuck Berry’s many … mistakes? You could easily make a Top 50 Mistakes from his life alone. Probably the most important person in the history of rock, whose career was derailed and legacy utterly undone by his own sketchy behavior.
(although to be fair, the US was and is a very racist place, and many white performers probably behaved just as badly and got away with it)
posted by panama joe at 2:38 AM on April 24, 2023 [5 favorites]
(although to be fair, the US was and is a very racist place, and many white performers probably behaved just as badly and got away with it)
posted by panama joe at 2:38 AM on April 24, 2023 [5 favorites]
Some of these are also subjects of Todd in the Shadows excellent Trainwreckords series of YouTube videos.
posted by Pendragon at 2:46 AM on April 24, 2023 [7 favorites]
posted by Pendragon at 2:46 AM on April 24, 2023 [7 favorites]
Actually in terms of music business decisions with consequences, one that should have made it was the Dixie Chicks’ decision to oppose the Iraq War. History has shown them to be right, completely, but it cost them.
posted by Fiasco da Gama at 2:50 AM on April 24, 2023 [35 favorites]
posted by Fiasco da Gama at 2:50 AM on April 24, 2023 [35 favorites]
The alt/darkwave scene was already moving on in a hurry away from and straight up rejecting JA's whole Venice Beach art rock vibe and schtick as being too sexist, too overtly sexual, too cis-het and too much florid mindless self indulgence
Ok, florid mindless self-indulgence, you've definitely got a point, but Man, I Was There, and the rest of your take here is just straight-up not true. Ritual sold a shit-ton of albums AND still holds up very well today, 30+ years later. While things did shift, it had way more to do with the 1995 Telecommunications Act than any lack of interest in what JA were doing.
posted by outgrown_hobnail at 3:49 AM on April 24, 2023 [5 favorites]
Ok, florid mindless self-indulgence, you've definitely got a point, but Man, I Was There, and the rest of your take here is just straight-up not true. Ritual sold a shit-ton of albums AND still holds up very well today, 30+ years later. While things did shift, it had way more to do with the 1995 Telecommunications Act than any lack of interest in what JA were doing.
posted by outgrown_hobnail at 3:49 AM on April 24, 2023 [5 favorites]
If you knew who Jane's Addiction was in, say, 1988-1991 ish you probably also already knew who The Pixies were, and Sonic Youth, and Nirvana, and many more. Not to mention Siouxie, and Bauhaus, and NIN and Killing Joke and a whole zoo of staples of alt/darkwave music. If so, this hypothetical alt/darkwave fan that knew about Jane's Addiction outside of LA is exactly the sort of person my "unless you happened to be into alternative music" was for. Everyone I knew who knew who JA was was already listening to Nirvana because Bleach was huge.
By this time, some of these bands had had legit Top 40 radio appearances, as surreal as it was to hear Siouxsie between Tone Loc and Def Leppard. I don't personally remember hearing Nirvana at all until "Smells Like Teen Spirit," but I'll allow that college radio may have been way less cool in Cleveland than it was in LA.
posted by kittens for breakfast at 4:30 AM on April 24, 2023 [4 favorites]
By this time, some of these bands had had legit Top 40 radio appearances, as surreal as it was to hear Siouxsie between Tone Loc and Def Leppard. I don't personally remember hearing Nirvana at all until "Smells Like Teen Spirit," but I'll allow that college radio may have been way less cool in Cleveland than it was in LA.
posted by kittens for breakfast at 4:30 AM on April 24, 2023 [4 favorites]
too sexist, too overtly sexual, too cis-het and too much florid mindless self indulgence
The alt/darkwave scene was moving on, but the wider world was putting the Red Hot Chili Peppers in the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame.
posted by box at 4:40 AM on April 24, 2023 [7 favorites]
The alt/darkwave scene was moving on, but the wider world was putting the Red Hot Chili Peppers in the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame.
posted by box at 4:40 AM on April 24, 2023 [7 favorites]
48 - A Taste of Honey wins Best New Artist Grammy over the Cars and Elvis Costello - 1979
HARD AGREE (I mean, I love me some Boogie Oogie Oogie, but damn)
posted by I_Love_Bananas at 5:43 AM on April 24, 2023 [3 favorites]
HARD AGREE (I mean, I love me some Boogie Oogie Oogie, but damn)
posted by I_Love_Bananas at 5:43 AM on April 24, 2023 [3 favorites]
The Chris Gaines album is a masterpiece. Fight me.
posted by rednikki at 5:44 AM on April 24, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by rednikki at 5:44 AM on April 24, 2023 [3 favorites]
This was a fun list. I hadn’t heard of about half of these (especially in the top 25) so I don’t have a dog in that fight. But I did actually go into a mini-rage about the U2 thing over lunch just this past Saturday, and was genuinely surprised and excited to learn there’s a way I can finally get it off my iTunes. What’s the big deal? I didn’t want it and I couldn’t get rid of it. AND I was supposed to be happy about it when it just showed up overnight. Not everybody wants a baby gosling when it shows up on your doorstep when you wake up. Cute, but annoying and impossible to get rid of and potentially hazardous to your sanity.
The Bee Gees Sgt Pepper, on the other hand, is a hoot.
posted by Mchelly at 6:32 AM on April 24, 2023 [4 favorites]
The Bee Gees Sgt Pepper, on the other hand, is a hoot.
posted by Mchelly at 6:32 AM on April 24, 2023 [4 favorites]
[raises hand] I want a gosling!
posted by outgrown_hobnail at 6:37 AM on April 24, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by outgrown_hobnail at 6:37 AM on April 24, 2023 [2 favorites]
The classic-rock FM station where I live has mostly stopped playing the Beatles version of 'Come Together' in favor of the Aerosmith Future Villain Band one.
I do not support this development.
posted by box at 6:44 AM on April 24, 2023 [3 favorites]
I do not support this development.
posted by box at 6:44 AM on April 24, 2023 [3 favorites]
I would argue that Garth Brooks' 90's campaign against the used CD market was a bigger screw-up than the Chris Gaines thing. Metallica vs Napster-level stupidity.
posted by Jessica Savitch's Coke Spoon at 6:57 AM on April 24, 2023 [7 favorites]
posted by Jessica Savitch's Coke Spoon at 6:57 AM on April 24, 2023 [7 favorites]
I enjoyed these stories very much -- some of them I knew and some I didn't. Thanks for posting.
posted by JanetLand at 7:06 AM on April 24, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by JanetLand at 7:06 AM on April 24, 2023 [3 favorites]
There are moves that are mistakes, but deliberate mistakes with a purpose, like Lou Reed's Metal Machine Music. Or the Lou Reed/Metallica team-up later on, which Reed dismissed as "what, am I going to drive away my fans? They all left after Metal Machine Music."
There are moves that are a band being led astray and being played like puppets for the amusement of others, like the Shaggs.
There are moves where one member of a band decides that they're the next big thing, attempts a solo arc, and kills both their own rising career and the band's career in the process. That's a tale as old as time, and too numerous to make the list.
But my all-time favorite is probably a midwestern person who decided that their town could use some European flair and culture, and booked a touring French artist to play their local musical venue. That person was Jean-Louis Costes, not too far removed from his "Fecal Master" album. Hilarity ensued.
posted by delfin at 7:17 AM on April 24, 2023 [6 favorites]
There are moves that are a band being led astray and being played like puppets for the amusement of others, like the Shaggs.
There are moves where one member of a band decides that they're the next big thing, attempts a solo arc, and kills both their own rising career and the band's career in the process. That's a tale as old as time, and too numerous to make the list.
But my all-time favorite is probably a midwestern person who decided that their town could use some European flair and culture, and booked a touring French artist to play their local musical venue. That person was Jean-Louis Costes, not too far removed from his "Fecal Master" album. Hilarity ensued.
posted by delfin at 7:17 AM on April 24, 2023 [6 favorites]
I don't quite get why the Grammy Award thing is on this list, and how it could possibly reflect on any of the musicians. Seems like a grudge pick that says more about the author of this piece and their biases than anything else. I wonder if they would have grumped this hard if Toto, who was also nominated, had won. This was the year of Peak Disco with Saturday Night Fever, etc., and I can see how this choice made total sense at the time. "Boogie Oogie Oogie" spent three weeks at number one and the band earned two platinum records for the album and the single. While being irritated that the Grammies reward commercial success is a classic time-honored grump, but if you're going to pick a Grammy that was seen as boneheaded at the time, Jethro Tull winning the first Best Heavy Metal one is right there.
posted by indexy at 7:28 AM on April 24, 2023 [6 favorites]
posted by indexy at 7:28 AM on April 24, 2023 [6 favorites]
The flute, as the band noted in a bemused thank-you ad, is a metal instrument.
posted by delfin at 7:29 AM on April 24, 2023 [11 favorites]
posted by delfin at 7:29 AM on April 24, 2023 [11 favorites]
Ha, I'd forgotten that, delfin.
posted by indexy at 7:30 AM on April 24, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by indexy at 7:30 AM on April 24, 2023 [2 favorites]
Also: any band/club that ever decided it would be a good idea to set off fireworks/sparklers indoors. (Great White might be the most obvious example, but they're not the only offenders).
I totally forgot about that. If your bad decision has a double-digit body count, then it needs to be on the list of the top 50 bad decisions.
posted by jonp72 at 7:44 AM on April 24, 2023 [12 favorites]
I totally forgot about that. If your bad decision has a double-digit body count, then it needs to be on the list of the top 50 bad decisions.
posted by jonp72 at 7:44 AM on April 24, 2023 [12 favorites]
While being irritated that the Grammies reward commercial success is a classic time-honored grump, but if you're going to pick a Grammy that was seen as boneheaded at the time, Jethro Tull winning the first Best Heavy Metal one is right there.
Another lesser known consequence of this debacle is that the Grammys have overcompensated by awarding a lot of Grammys to Metallica, when probably a newer metal/hard rock band deserves it more, to atone for giving that award to Jethro Tull the first time. Even from a crude ratings and showmanship standpoint, awarding the Grammy to Jethro Tull was a disaster, because Tull didn't even show up to the ceremony, because their management told them that their odds of winning were so low. Metallica & other hard rock bands certainly knew and respected Jethro Tull, but the reaction at the time was, "You mean they're still together?"
posted by jonp72 at 7:48 AM on April 24, 2023 [2 favorites]
Another lesser known consequence of this debacle is that the Grammys have overcompensated by awarding a lot of Grammys to Metallica, when probably a newer metal/hard rock band deserves it more, to atone for giving that award to Jethro Tull the first time. Even from a crude ratings and showmanship standpoint, awarding the Grammy to Jethro Tull was a disaster, because Tull didn't even show up to the ceremony, because their management told them that their odds of winning were so low. Metallica & other hard rock bands certainly knew and respected Jethro Tull, but the reaction at the time was, "You mean they're still together?"
posted by jonp72 at 7:48 AM on April 24, 2023 [2 favorites]
I saw Jane’s live in ‘91 on the Ritual tour. They were great. The Pixies opened. They were sort of ok, not memorable at all. After reading this thread I’m happy to know that I saw Jane’s on a good night…
posted by njohnson23 at 7:48 AM on April 24, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by njohnson23 at 7:48 AM on April 24, 2023 [1 favorite]
The Bee Gees Sgt Pepper, on the other hand, is a hoot.
I grade that movie on the "truckloads of cocaine" scale. As in "How many truckloads of cocaine were necessary to make it sound like a good idea to greenlight that movie?" I award it 4 truckloads out of 4.
posted by jonp72 at 7:51 AM on April 24, 2023 [9 favorites]
I grade that movie on the "truckloads of cocaine" scale. As in "How many truckloads of cocaine were necessary to make it sound like a good idea to greenlight that movie?" I award it 4 truckloads out of 4.
posted by jonp72 at 7:51 AM on April 24, 2023 [9 favorites]
Metallica & other hard rock bands certainly knew and respected Jethro Tull, but the reaction at the time was, "You mean they're still together?"
Which probably startled Tull to a degree, as well.
Three years prior to their Grammy, their self-mocking stage show featured band members on crutches, wheeled in via wheelchair and carried out on a stretcher, with a banner behind them reading "Oh No, Not Another 20 Years of Jethro Tull."
(While Anderson is still plugging away out there, the symbolic end of the original band, aka Martin Barre and Anderson parting ways, was indeed over 20 years later.)
posted by delfin at 7:59 AM on April 24, 2023 [4 favorites]
Which probably startled Tull to a degree, as well.
Three years prior to their Grammy, their self-mocking stage show featured band members on crutches, wheeled in via wheelchair and carried out on a stretcher, with a banner behind them reading "Oh No, Not Another 20 Years of Jethro Tull."
(While Anderson is still plugging away out there, the symbolic end of the original band, aka Martin Barre and Anderson parting ways, was indeed over 20 years later.)
posted by delfin at 7:59 AM on April 24, 2023 [4 favorites]
I think Jane's and RHCP and Pixies were an antidote for the hairspray-laden Ratt Poison of the late '80s. Something harder and darker but not really goth or metal. And it helped that they all had cool bass lines that you could try out in your garage.
Of course, my cooler-than-me future spouse was already listening to Mr. Bungle and Mother Love Bone...
posted by credulous at 8:02 AM on April 24, 2023 [8 favorites]
Of course, my cooler-than-me future spouse was already listening to Mr. Bungle and Mother Love Bone...
posted by credulous at 8:02 AM on April 24, 2023 [8 favorites]
^FFlorence
Hm..
^Fblackface
Okay, I'd have expected that Florence and the Machine blackface video to make the top ten, personally.
Do you really understand how much blackface was in 1980s music videos? There's blackface in The Cure, "Why Can't I Be You?"; Culture Club, "Do You Really Want to Hurt Me?"; and Taco, "Puttin' on the Ritz." If you did the research, the entire list could have been about blackface & that's another whole can of worms.
posted by jonp72 at 8:12 AM on April 24, 2023 [4 favorites]
Hm..
^Fblackface
Okay, I'd have expected that Florence and the Machine blackface video to make the top ten, personally.
Do you really understand how much blackface was in 1980s music videos? There's blackface in The Cure, "Why Can't I Be You?"; Culture Club, "Do You Really Want to Hurt Me?"; and Taco, "Puttin' on the Ritz." If you did the research, the entire list could have been about blackface & that's another whole can of worms.
posted by jonp72 at 8:12 AM on April 24, 2023 [4 favorites]
I think Jane's and RHCP and Pixies were an antidote for the hairspray-laden Ratt Poison of the late '80s. Something harder and darker but not really goth or metal. And it helped that they all had cool bass lines that you could try out in your garage.
Poison had hits about women being forced to sell their body for fame (Fallen Angel ) and homeless Vietnam vets ("Something to Believe In"), so lyrical content did not divide 'pop rockers' from grunge/indie artists, at least not ones like Janes and RHCP, who basically played rock one step removed from hair metal. That's retconning too. Maybe the content was slightly sanitized to be popular, but not that much. Music was more basic, at least than the real innovators.
posted by The_Vegetables at 8:34 AM on April 24, 2023 [2 favorites]
Poison had hits about women being forced to sell their body for fame (Fallen Angel ) and homeless Vietnam vets ("Something to Believe In"), so lyrical content did not divide 'pop rockers' from grunge/indie artists, at least not ones like Janes and RHCP, who basically played rock one step removed from hair metal. That's retconning too. Maybe the content was slightly sanitized to be popular, but not that much. Music was more basic, at least than the real innovators.
posted by The_Vegetables at 8:34 AM on April 24, 2023 [2 favorites]
I never really “got” Jane’s Addiction as a whole, although they have a few songs I like, but it sure seems like they meant something to quite a few people - that’s why I felt compelled to listen and try to figure out what the deal was in the first place.
posted by atoxyl at 8:50 AM on April 24, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by atoxyl at 8:50 AM on April 24, 2023 [2 favorites]
Decca Records passes on signing the Beatles
The Beatles audition for Decca Records
Brian Poole and the Tremeloes are currently residing in the "where are they now" file.
posted by kirkaracha at 9:01 AM on April 24, 2023 [2 favorites]
The Beatles audition for Decca Records
As head of A&R Dick Rowe later remembered:Yeah, that's what they all say. They all say, "D'oh."I told Mike he’d have to decide between them. It was up to him – The Beatles or Brian Poole and the Tremeloes. He said, ‘They’re both good, but one’s a local group, the other comes from Liverpool.’ We decided it was better to take the local group. We could work with them more easily and stay closer in touch as they came from Dagenham.The official reason given, meanwhile, was that “guitar groups are on the way out, Mr Epstein”.
Brian Poole and the Tremeloes are currently residing in the "where are they now" file.
posted by kirkaracha at 9:01 AM on April 24, 2023 [2 favorites]
#45: Yes hired the Buggles to replace departing members and reinvent themselves as something less outdated and the album they made was not great.
But three years later, after one of the former Buggles moved from vocals to production, and a new drummer joined, they released fucking *90125*, with fucking *Owner of a Lonely Heart* and that song fucking *owned* the airwaves and sold a bazillion copies and got a ton of new fans interested in their backcatalog and in more work in the future that might potentially better mimic this new sound. *And* the results of the former Buggles fucking around with the session musicians they brought in for that album gave the world *The Art Of Noise*, whose first albums set the mold for *multiple* subgenres of electronic music.
But yeah, #45 of the 50 worst decisions a rock band ever made, sure, Rolling Stone.
posted by egypturnash at 9:02 AM on April 24, 2023 [24 favorites]
But three years later, after one of the former Buggles moved from vocals to production, and a new drummer joined, they released fucking *90125*, with fucking *Owner of a Lonely Heart* and that song fucking *owned* the airwaves and sold a bazillion copies and got a ton of new fans interested in their backcatalog and in more work in the future that might potentially better mimic this new sound. *And* the results of the former Buggles fucking around with the session musicians they brought in for that album gave the world *The Art Of Noise*, whose first albums set the mold for *multiple* subgenres of electronic music.
But yeah, #45 of the 50 worst decisions a rock band ever made, sure, Rolling Stone.
posted by egypturnash at 9:02 AM on April 24, 2023 [24 favorites]
really this would have been much better as a Top Ten list, the top nine are pretty unambiguously Giant Fuckups, and #10 is... a man made a shitty music video that maybe kinda ruined his musical career.
posted by egypturnash at 9:11 AM on April 24, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by egypturnash at 9:11 AM on April 24, 2023 [3 favorites]
I wonder if they would have grumped this hard if Toto, who was also nominated, had won.
Hehe... yeah. I think they would have grumped this hard. Really, how much respect is Toto's catalog getting these days? But, yeah, the folly of this list is that it has the privilege of looking at some of these decisions with decades of hindsight.
A Taste of Honey was a perfectly reasonable decision at the time. I do wish people would stop trying to make disco into some kind of martyr, tho. It was a marketing effort with the seeds of its own demise built in. It took something that existed before, and after, slapped a marketing campaign on it and rode it until it was rode out. It made some people a lot of money. It made some people great careers, it made some people forever tied to a particular time, and will never let them go. I know people like Michael Hobbes have made a career out of playing up a particular angle of the disco era, but it really needs to be emphasized how much of a cash-in it was. And how much audiences love fads, until they don't.
#45
Yeah, I, too think Drama is pretty good, comparatively. It brought the band back to a level of listenability that had been steadily declining. I suppose they did disappoint the fans who wanted a 50 minute opus with capes. I wonder, is there such a thing as a casual prog rock fan? I sometimes feel I was the only one.
posted by 2N2222 at 9:21 AM on April 24, 2023 [2 favorites]
Hehe... yeah. I think they would have grumped this hard. Really, how much respect is Toto's catalog getting these days? But, yeah, the folly of this list is that it has the privilege of looking at some of these decisions with decades of hindsight.
A Taste of Honey was a perfectly reasonable decision at the time. I do wish people would stop trying to make disco into some kind of martyr, tho. It was a marketing effort with the seeds of its own demise built in. It took something that existed before, and after, slapped a marketing campaign on it and rode it until it was rode out. It made some people a lot of money. It made some people great careers, it made some people forever tied to a particular time, and will never let them go. I know people like Michael Hobbes have made a career out of playing up a particular angle of the disco era, but it really needs to be emphasized how much of a cash-in it was. And how much audiences love fads, until they don't.
#45
Yeah, I, too think Drama is pretty good, comparatively. It brought the band back to a level of listenability that had been steadily declining. I suppose they did disappoint the fans who wanted a 50 minute opus with capes. I wonder, is there such a thing as a casual prog rock fan? I sometimes feel I was the only one.
posted by 2N2222 at 9:21 AM on April 24, 2023 [2 favorites]
anyway thanks for sharing this list, after about forty years I have finally realized that the element missing in pretty much every other Yes album I have purchased is the lack of Trevor Horn's production, and Trevor Rabin's guitar shifting effortlessly between gentle shimmering notes and intensely vibrating buzzsaws. I've never really looked at their constant lineup changes and put two and two together, I've just occasionally bought another Yes album and been disappointed that very little of it sounded like 90125.
I have just bought a Trevor Rabin solo album which is entirely about devising music he thinks would be interesting or challenging to play and I will be putting it on as soon as 90125 is done.
The 45th worst decision a rock band ever made sold me like a half dozen of their albums, half of which I enjoyed nowhere near as much as the ones that resulted from that decision.
posted by egypturnash at 9:33 AM on April 24, 2023 [1 favorite]
I have just bought a Trevor Rabin solo album which is entirely about devising music he thinks would be interesting or challenging to play and I will be putting it on as soon as 90125 is done.
The 45th worst decision a rock band ever made sold me like a half dozen of their albums, half of which I enjoyed nowhere near as much as the ones that resulted from that decision.
posted by egypturnash at 9:33 AM on April 24, 2023 [1 favorite]
The Yes album that is the most direct follow up to 90125 is Big Generator. If you haven't checked that one out, that's probably the one you're looking for.
posted by hippybear at 9:40 AM on April 24, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by hippybear at 9:40 AM on April 24, 2023 [3 favorites]
No Sinead O'Connor tearing up a picture of the Pope on national US TV? I mean, she was right to do it, fuck that guy, but it certainly kneecapped her career.
posted by Abehammerb Lincoln at 9:55 AM on April 24, 2023 [14 favorites]
posted by Abehammerb Lincoln at 9:55 AM on April 24, 2023 [14 favorites]
Bowie's Thin White Douche fascism period was almost as bad as Tin Machine.
posted by Abehammerb Lincoln at 9:56 AM on April 24, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by Abehammerb Lincoln at 9:56 AM on April 24, 2023 [3 favorites]
In 1976-1978, I was in junior high and made a couple of friends that introduced me to "hard rock" and KISS was our favorite band. (And their 1979 tour was my first concert that wasn't with my parents.) That year, ninth grade, we'd already mostly switched to harder bands and while I'm probably privileging my own experience, I really feel like we were representative of lot of their fans who had already moved on. I mean, this is a band who seemed designed to appeal to long-haired late-70s 13 year-old boys. There's no doubt that "Music from The Elder" was a mistake, but the whole reason they made the record was because they'd already begun to fall in popularity. I didn't bother listening to the album until my senior year and I remember thinking that it wasn't as awful as I'd expected it to be.
Also, I was still friends with those two guys in 1978, at the beginning of ninth grade, when that Bee Gees Sgt. Pepper movie came out. They were extremely keen to see it and we got an older brother to drive us four hours, hundreds of miles away, to see the movie. I think they were mostly excited about Aerosmith in it, and that song and Steve Martin's "Maxwell's Silver Hammer" are all I recall of the film. I wasn't particularly impressed and I think it was when I first began to question their taste (although 70s Aerosmith was great) and we parted ways shortly thereafter. Junior high / middle school is just the worst age and that friend group was the first and only time in my life that I had shitty, abusive friends and dumping them was one of the best decisions I ever made as a child. I'm sort of ambivalent about those two guys being my entree into music that wasn't pop.
Incidentally, and this is absolutely, verifiably true: I grew up with a girl — she was my "girlfriend" when we were around 8-9 — named "Beegee", after the band, because her mom was a fan of theirs in the 60s (yes, they existed then).
Like basically everyone else in the thread, I think Loquacious is mistaken about Jane's Addiction. My (now) ex-wife, who was involved with the late 80s Toronto alternative music scene, married me and moved here and throughout our marriage from 1990 on was involved in public and private radio, produced a live music show, started a college station, booked artists on local tours, and we personally got promo records from labels all through the early 90s. JA should have remained popular — I agree it's a mistake to think they could have had equivalent success to the biggest grunge bands, but they were pretty sui generis and there would have been an enduring place for them in the 90s alternative scene had they not broken up.
posted by Ivan Fyodorovich at 10:57 AM on April 24, 2023 [6 favorites]
Also, I was still friends with those two guys in 1978, at the beginning of ninth grade, when that Bee Gees Sgt. Pepper movie came out. They were extremely keen to see it and we got an older brother to drive us four hours, hundreds of miles away, to see the movie. I think they were mostly excited about Aerosmith in it, and that song and Steve Martin's "Maxwell's Silver Hammer" are all I recall of the film. I wasn't particularly impressed and I think it was when I first began to question their taste (although 70s Aerosmith was great) and we parted ways shortly thereafter. Junior high / middle school is just the worst age and that friend group was the first and only time in my life that I had shitty, abusive friends and dumping them was one of the best decisions I ever made as a child. I'm sort of ambivalent about those two guys being my entree into music that wasn't pop.
Incidentally, and this is absolutely, verifiably true: I grew up with a girl — she was my "girlfriend" when we were around 8-9 — named "Beegee", after the band, because her mom was a fan of theirs in the 60s (yes, they existed then).
Like basically everyone else in the thread, I think Loquacious is mistaken about Jane's Addiction. My (now) ex-wife, who was involved with the late 80s Toronto alternative music scene, married me and moved here and throughout our marriage from 1990 on was involved in public and private radio, produced a live music show, started a college station, booked artists on local tours, and we personally got promo records from labels all through the early 90s. JA should have remained popular — I agree it's a mistake to think they could have had equivalent success to the biggest grunge bands, but they were pretty sui generis and there would have been an enduring place for them in the 90s alternative scene had they not broken up.
posted by Ivan Fyodorovich at 10:57 AM on April 24, 2023 [6 favorites]
Also: any band/club that ever decided it would be a good idea to set off fireworks/sparklers indoors. (Great White might be the most obvious example, but they're not the only offenders).
Ha no way - Crash Worship used to essentially light half the venue on fire while having sex on stage and throwing out drugs and they were complete LEGENDS.
I definitely have fond memories of Crash Worship as well (managed to catch them a couple times when they made it to the Bay Area). It's just that since Great White played the Station Nightclub and set off indoor pyrotechnics that caused a fire and resulted in 100 deaths, I'm now a bit more...wary about the use of flames inside a club, as well as being more aware where the nearest exits are when I go to a club. (See also: the Colectiv nightclub fire in 2015, where firework candles set up by band Goodbye to Gravity caused a fire that killed 64 people, including 4/5 of the band).
posted by gtrwolf at 11:01 AM on April 24, 2023 [1 favorite]
Ha no way - Crash Worship used to essentially light half the venue on fire while having sex on stage and throwing out drugs and they were complete LEGENDS.
I definitely have fond memories of Crash Worship as well (managed to catch them a couple times when they made it to the Bay Area). It's just that since Great White played the Station Nightclub and set off indoor pyrotechnics that caused a fire and resulted in 100 deaths, I'm now a bit more...wary about the use of flames inside a club, as well as being more aware where the nearest exits are when I go to a club. (See also: the Colectiv nightclub fire in 2015, where firework candles set up by band Goodbye to Gravity caused a fire that killed 64 people, including 4/5 of the band).
posted by gtrwolf at 11:01 AM on April 24, 2023 [1 favorite]
I certainly seemed to have touched a nerve, which is kind of what happens when I lean too hard into a 90s stye New Music Express level cynical music writer rant.
I'm not saying they weren't well known or totally obscure. I'm not saying they didn't help pave the way for alt/grunge rock at all. I mean Ferrel - for better and worse - did start Lollapalooza and helped define the 90s and did shake up the touring industry.
What I'm saying or trying to say is that I'm surprised that they're even on this list at all with easily globally recognized bands like The Beatles or Pink Floyd and aren't even on that stratospheric level of recognition, and my counter-argument is specifically that the premise of it being a bad music business decision that they broke up specifically because of missing out on the rise of alt/grunge rock.
I maintain that even if they didn't break up it wasn't really going to have an effect one way or the other on either their own success or the looming success of grunge and this is why it's weird it's on this list and especially in this context. That steamroller was already moving, and if anything Jane's was already being carried along by it and being genre-pigeonholed into alt rock just because it didn't really fit anywhere else in the genre-focused business and chart models of the era.
I've had a bunch of conversations about this era of music with younger much younger music fans over the years who would at least know of pretty much every other band or artists in the list and most of them don't even know who Jane's Addiction is or who Perry Farrell is even if they've heard of Lollapalooza or any of the other touchstones and shibboleths we're talking about here.
Anecdotal example: Over 10 years ago I'm in a corner store in Seattle in my neighborhood. Been Caught Stealing is playing, the young long haired guy who is barely 20 manning the counter is wearing a Nirvana shirt and as I check out I say something conversational like "Man, I haven't heard Jane's Addiction in years" and he replies "I have no idea who that is" with that bored, passive tones used by retail workers everywhere hoping it doesn't spark me to go on a rant about it like a Rush fan and force them to listen to YYZ several times in a row.
As I recall I just said something like "Oh, cool, I'm old." and walked out.
I would guess that more random people today remember or heard about Sinead O'Conner (rightfully) tearing up the picture of the pope and torpedoing her career than that same survey sample set would know who Jane's Addiction is/was.
It would be just as weird to me if they included Danny Elfman where the music business mistake they listed was going solo to make Tim Burton movie soundtracks instead of going all in on Oingo Boingo because they could have been as big as No Doubt because of 3rd/4th wave Ska.
Which is, of course, totally silly.
The dots don't really connect the way the author and article thinks they do and are just adjacent and tenuous at best.
If the author had instead listed the business mistake as "Farrell torpedoed Jane's Addiction and any hope the band's continued success by demanding something like 62.5% of the percentage points leaving the rest of the band to share the rest" that would at least be true, but it still would barely float to the top of a large number of other bands that had someone get greedy and hit the self destruct button the same way.
Sorry, this one is just rubbing me the wrong way because it's retconning, and I'm saying this even though Nothing's Shocking is one of my favorite albums of all time. But I also recognize that it's one of my favorites mostly because of nostalgia and the time and place it was in my life. Mountain Song is one of the only songs I can reliably nail to the door at karaoke or Rock Band.
posted by loquacious at 11:03 AM on April 24, 2023 [6 favorites]
I'm not saying they weren't well known or totally obscure. I'm not saying they didn't help pave the way for alt/grunge rock at all. I mean Ferrel - for better and worse - did start Lollapalooza and helped define the 90s and did shake up the touring industry.
What I'm saying or trying to say is that I'm surprised that they're even on this list at all with easily globally recognized bands like The Beatles or Pink Floyd and aren't even on that stratospheric level of recognition, and my counter-argument is specifically that the premise of it being a bad music business decision that they broke up specifically because of missing out on the rise of alt/grunge rock.
I maintain that even if they didn't break up it wasn't really going to have an effect one way or the other on either their own success or the looming success of grunge and this is why it's weird it's on this list and especially in this context. That steamroller was already moving, and if anything Jane's was already being carried along by it and being genre-pigeonholed into alt rock just because it didn't really fit anywhere else in the genre-focused business and chart models of the era.
I've had a bunch of conversations about this era of music with younger much younger music fans over the years who would at least know of pretty much every other band or artists in the list and most of them don't even know who Jane's Addiction is or who Perry Farrell is even if they've heard of Lollapalooza or any of the other touchstones and shibboleths we're talking about here.
Anecdotal example: Over 10 years ago I'm in a corner store in Seattle in my neighborhood. Been Caught Stealing is playing, the young long haired guy who is barely 20 manning the counter is wearing a Nirvana shirt and as I check out I say something conversational like "Man, I haven't heard Jane's Addiction in years" and he replies "I have no idea who that is" with that bored, passive tones used by retail workers everywhere hoping it doesn't spark me to go on a rant about it like a Rush fan and force them to listen to YYZ several times in a row.
As I recall I just said something like "Oh, cool, I'm old." and walked out.
I would guess that more random people today remember or heard about Sinead O'Conner (rightfully) tearing up the picture of the pope and torpedoing her career than that same survey sample set would know who Jane's Addiction is/was.
It would be just as weird to me if they included Danny Elfman where the music business mistake they listed was going solo to make Tim Burton movie soundtracks instead of going all in on Oingo Boingo because they could have been as big as No Doubt because of 3rd/4th wave Ska.
Which is, of course, totally silly.
The dots don't really connect the way the author and article thinks they do and are just adjacent and tenuous at best.
If the author had instead listed the business mistake as "Farrell torpedoed Jane's Addiction and any hope the band's continued success by demanding something like 62.5% of the percentage points leaving the rest of the band to share the rest" that would at least be true, but it still would barely float to the top of a large number of other bands that had someone get greedy and hit the self destruct button the same way.
Sorry, this one is just rubbing me the wrong way because it's retconning, and I'm saying this even though Nothing's Shocking is one of my favorite albums of all time. But I also recognize that it's one of my favorites mostly because of nostalgia and the time and place it was in my life. Mountain Song is one of the only songs I can reliably nail to the door at karaoke or Rock Band.
posted by loquacious at 11:03 AM on April 24, 2023 [6 favorites]
Speaking of cocaine, "Maxwell's Silver Hammer" performed by Steve Martin in the Sgt. Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band movie.
posted by kirkaracha at 11:07 AM on April 24, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by kirkaracha at 11:07 AM on April 24, 2023 [5 favorites]
Also, I'm happy that so many others remember Crash Worship.
I once went to a Crash Worship show at the Whiskey A Go Go and they got kicked out and shut down for, duh, nearly lighting the place on fire, so they just took the party right out into Sunset Blvd with their giant drums and fire and huge jugs of wine that may or may not have had, uh, psychoactive additives in it. Then Mark Pauline of Survival Research Labs showed up with a jet engine on a trailer and fired that up and made even more noise and it was totally epic.
I still remember the look of sheer terror and WTF when LAPD showed up and they were like "Ok, they have a goddamn jet engine in the street and there's naked people covered in wine everywhere and none of this is in our training or SoP. I'm not going in there, I don't get paid enough for this shit."
(Actually, this may have even been a Drums of Pangea show. Same difference, really. Memory is a little hazy, here.)
This is also reminding me of an industrial/experimental band called Babyland where people were encouraged to bring drum sticks and things to bang on, and most of the show was angle grinders throwing sparks on metal and the audience going totally feral smashing up steel drums and metal trash lobbed from the stage into the crowd. Holy shit that was loud and dangerous.
posted by loquacious at 11:15 AM on April 24, 2023 [11 favorites]
I once went to a Crash Worship show at the Whiskey A Go Go and they got kicked out and shut down for, duh, nearly lighting the place on fire, so they just took the party right out into Sunset Blvd with their giant drums and fire and huge jugs of wine that may or may not have had, uh, psychoactive additives in it. Then Mark Pauline of Survival Research Labs showed up with a jet engine on a trailer and fired that up and made even more noise and it was totally epic.
I still remember the look of sheer terror and WTF when LAPD showed up and they were like "Ok, they have a goddamn jet engine in the street and there's naked people covered in wine everywhere and none of this is in our training or SoP. I'm not going in there, I don't get paid enough for this shit."
(Actually, this may have even been a Drums of Pangea show. Same difference, really. Memory is a little hazy, here.)
This is also reminding me of an industrial/experimental band called Babyland where people were encouraged to bring drum sticks and things to bang on, and most of the show was angle grinders throwing sparks on metal and the audience going totally feral smashing up steel drums and metal trash lobbed from the stage into the crowd. Holy shit that was loud and dangerous.
posted by loquacious at 11:15 AM on April 24, 2023 [11 favorites]
loquacious Now THAT'S entertainment!!!
Babyland, another name I haven't heard in years. I also remember when Beatnigs played Gilman doing the metal-on-metal percussion thang and, at the end of the set, let members of the audience beat on the metal near the edge of the stage. (Shout-out to Oiler as well, even if I don't remember them getting as gone as the above groups).
Yeah, good times indeed. And in retrospect, probably a minor miracle that nothing Very Bad happened at said shows....
posted by gtrwolf at 11:30 AM on April 24, 2023 [3 favorites]
Babyland, another name I haven't heard in years. I also remember when Beatnigs played Gilman doing the metal-on-metal percussion thang and, at the end of the set, let members of the audience beat on the metal near the edge of the stage. (Shout-out to Oiler as well, even if I don't remember them getting as gone as the above groups).
Yeah, good times indeed. And in retrospect, probably a minor miracle that nothing Very Bad happened at said shows....
posted by gtrwolf at 11:30 AM on April 24, 2023 [3 favorites]
It seems there is some appetite to discuss Sgt. Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band (the movie) so may I invite all of you to the new FanFare thread I have created for that purpose?
Bring the Saxophone.. -FVB
posted by Nerd of the North at 11:39 AM on April 24, 2023 [3 favorites]
Bring the Saxophone.. -FVB
posted by Nerd of the North at 11:39 AM on April 24, 2023 [3 favorites]
No Sinead O'Connor tearing up a picture of the Pope on national US TV? I mean, she was right to do it, fuck that guy, but it certainly kneecapped her career.
On that note, it's kind of shocking the [Dixie] Chicks' career-exploding throwaway line about George Bush didn't make the list.
posted by Mchelly at 11:44 AM on April 24, 2023 [6 favorites]
On that note, it's kind of shocking the [Dixie] Chicks' career-exploding throwaway line about George Bush didn't make the list.
posted by Mchelly at 11:44 AM on April 24, 2023 [6 favorites]
I have a feeling that the Dixie Chicks and Sinead O'Connor weren't on the list because there's a difference between "a dumb mistake that impacted someone's career" and "a moment when someone acted on principle and it cost them their career".
Sinead ripping up the Pope picture and the Dixie Chicks dissing Dubya weren't "mistakes".
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 11:53 AM on April 24, 2023 [25 favorites]
Sinead ripping up the Pope picture and the Dixie Chicks dissing Dubya weren't "mistakes".
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 11:53 AM on April 24, 2023 [25 favorites]
Kinda weird how industrial was like The Future of Music for a while, and then it just … disappeared. Like, what took its place? In the alternate timeline where Industrial actually was the future of music, what never got popular?
I relistened to a bunch of NIN and Ministry not too long ago, and a lot of it held up. Some of it is embarrassingly edgelordy, but as music it still sounds pretty distinctive. Contrast that with grunge, which … brings me to an unpopular theory of mine …
Ever notice how, whenever people talk about grunge, it’s always in cultural terms? And how it “swept away all that hair metal excess”, and everyone was all, like, “whatever, man” for a while and wore stocking caps and flannels and moved to Seattle and did heroin, and how … nobody ever actually talks about the music? Because as a genre, maybe it’s not all that distinctive?
Yes, I know its a challops and a lot of people will disagree with me. But relistening to a lot of grunge, it just kinda sounds like a bunch of random bands that don’t really hang together all that well, and just kinda sound of-a-piece with a lot of the loud-quiet-loud alt rock of the era. Like if you hadn’t been around at the time and nobody told you it was a genre, would you really have picked it out as a genre? Nirvana is probably the one with the most lasting musical legacy, and it’s the one that sounds least like the others. Also, “post-grunge” was terrible.
So that’s my theory. Grunge was more of a cultural force than a distinctive musical genre. And industrial seems to have held up a lot better, although nobody ever talks about it anymore.
posted by panama joe at 12:07 PM on April 24, 2023 [4 favorites]
I relistened to a bunch of NIN and Ministry not too long ago, and a lot of it held up. Some of it is embarrassingly edgelordy, but as music it still sounds pretty distinctive. Contrast that with grunge, which … brings me to an unpopular theory of mine …
Ever notice how, whenever people talk about grunge, it’s always in cultural terms? And how it “swept away all that hair metal excess”, and everyone was all, like, “whatever, man” for a while and wore stocking caps and flannels and moved to Seattle and did heroin, and how … nobody ever actually talks about the music? Because as a genre, maybe it’s not all that distinctive?
Yes, I know its a challops and a lot of people will disagree with me. But relistening to a lot of grunge, it just kinda sounds like a bunch of random bands that don’t really hang together all that well, and just kinda sound of-a-piece with a lot of the loud-quiet-loud alt rock of the era. Like if you hadn’t been around at the time and nobody told you it was a genre, would you really have picked it out as a genre? Nirvana is probably the one with the most lasting musical legacy, and it’s the one that sounds least like the others. Also, “post-grunge” was terrible.
So that’s my theory. Grunge was more of a cultural force than a distinctive musical genre. And industrial seems to have held up a lot better, although nobody ever talks about it anymore.
posted by panama joe at 12:07 PM on April 24, 2023 [4 favorites]
Oh come on Grunge had its own slang!
Get off my harsh realm you cob nobblers!
posted by chavenet at 12:26 PM on April 24, 2023 [4 favorites]
Get off my harsh realm you cob nobblers!
posted by chavenet at 12:26 PM on April 24, 2023 [4 favorites]
I would say that grunge-the-genre was a way to describe people mixing alt-rock aesthetics (distorted guitars, angsty lyrics, un-fancy or even ugly production and presentation, disdain for the music industry) with some of the sonics of '70s AOR and heavy metal (yarly singing, more riffing and bigger choruses than the usual alt-rock of the time).
posted by box at 12:32 PM on April 24, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by box at 12:32 PM on April 24, 2023 [3 favorites]
Incidentally, and this is absolutely, verifiably true: I grew up with a girl — she was my "girlfriend" when we were around 8-9 — named "Beegee", after the band, because her mom was a fan of theirs in the 60s (yes, they existed then).
For those with access to satellite radio, the Underground Garage channel in general and Chris Carter's British Invasion show on weekends in particular are excellent primers as to how goddamned good the Bee Gees were in their pre-disco incarnation. Whether or not one cares for their disco output is a separate issue.
posted by delfin at 1:20 PM on April 24, 2023 [4 favorites]
For those with access to satellite radio, the Underground Garage channel in general and Chris Carter's British Invasion show on weekends in particular are excellent primers as to how goddamned good the Bee Gees were in their pre-disco incarnation. Whether or not one cares for their disco output is a separate issue.
posted by delfin at 1:20 PM on April 24, 2023 [4 favorites]
Since we're speaking of the BeeGees and the Sgt Pepper's movie, I'm sharing a YT link below. In the scene, I believe that the BeeGees and Peter Frampton are sneaking up on Steven Tyler and Joe Perry attempting to kill their girlfriend during some light BDSM. The tragedy of this and Tyler's subsequent injury led to the Aerosmith frontmen becoming drug dependent. For some reason Michael Stipe's dad and Mel Brooks are wearing yellow and watching form a distance. I may be reading this wrong.
Mind blowing film
posted by Abehammerb Lincoln at 1:45 PM on April 24, 2023 [2 favorites]
Mind blowing film
posted by Abehammerb Lincoln at 1:45 PM on April 24, 2023 [2 favorites]
I may be reading this wrong.
The amount of drugs in Tyler's system during the filming of this scene actually came through my computer screen and got me high.
posted by hippybear at 1:54 PM on April 24, 2023 [5 favorites]
The amount of drugs in Tyler's system during the filming of this scene actually came through my computer screen and got me high.
posted by hippybear at 1:54 PM on April 24, 2023 [5 favorites]
panama joe: Ever notice how, whenever people talk about grunge, it’s always in cultural terms?
From the article that chavenet posted: By then only outsiders earnestly used the term “grunge” as a noun. “It was an overhyped, inflated word that doesn’t have actual meaning in Seattle,” said Charles R. Cross, former editor and publisher of Pacific Northwest alternative paper The Rocket and author of the Kurt Cobain biography Heavier Than Heaven. “It’s a time marker more than a description of music.”
posted by indexy at 2:02 PM on April 24, 2023 [4 favorites]
From the article that chavenet posted: By then only outsiders earnestly used the term “grunge” as a noun. “It was an overhyped, inflated word that doesn’t have actual meaning in Seattle,” said Charles R. Cross, former editor and publisher of Pacific Northwest alternative paper The Rocket and author of the Kurt Cobain biography Heavier Than Heaven. “It’s a time marker more than a description of music.”
posted by indexy at 2:02 PM on April 24, 2023 [4 favorites]
Kinda weird how industrial was like The Future of Music for a while, and then it just … disappeared. Like, what took its place? In the alternate timeline where Industrial actually was the future of music, what never got popular?
I think a lot of it just fell out of the zeitgeist. A lot of the people I knew who were really into industrial still listen to it, and it still exists the way ska and rockabilly still exists and has its own subcultures.
A lot of industrial fans I knew also branched out into experimental and noise which is also definitely still a thing. Which makes sense because, well, that's what industrial music really was as in the Throbbing Gristle and Industrial Records definition of industrial music that influenced poppier dance industrial stuff like Sigue Sigue Sputnik, Pop Will Eat Itself and on through to later NIN, KMFDM, Ministry and more. (or Cabaret Voiltaire, or Soft Cell and so on.)
For me personally I just, I don't know, maybe mellowed out and matured or something and realized I wasn't really enjoying music that spent most of it's time being shouty or shouting at me and I just was no longer enjoying edgy music that made me feel that kind of anxious, shouty or even whiny.
I still listen to a lot of music that most people would find abrasive, edgy or anxiety producing but that tends to be techno, electro and stuff that's much more tense and minimal like dub techno, minimal or melancholic deep house.
Relatively new and current techno stuff like this, especially that first Rosa Anschütz / Rigid / Kobosil 44 track in that playlist.
And if you dive into the current state of techno right now and over about the last 5-10 years it's had a huge revival and it's going hard and dark as fuck.
There's a bunch of modern techno out now that would have absolutely destroyed the darkwave/industrial clubs I used to go to in the 90s. That Rosa Anschütz track would have made people's heads just straight up explode at Club Post Nuclear or Kontrol Faktory.
Or this is Tale of Us just last week at Coachella 2023. Or try this short video of an even bigger stage and video wall. Or here's a whole set from them. (I haven't seen thus before and haven't vetted it.)
Note that Tale of Us is arguably relatively mainstream in EDM right now and playing huge festivals. I'm just picking easy examples.
And this is just in the general modern techno space. There's a bunch of other darkwave/industrial-ish music in stuff like witch house, synthwave and more, it just doesn't neatly fit into the 80s/90s box of "dance/club industrial", which musically speaking was kind of it's own self-marketed and created genre and aesthetic not unlike hair metal or death metal or something.
I don't have any examples or links handy but I've found stuff on YouTube or Soundcloud that's... I guess it's witch house or something? It's basically industrial lo fi trap goth? Like it sounds like Boards of Canada, power electronics/noise, early NIN, trap and maybe some breakcore intentionally had an evil demonic baby.
I think the industrial aesthetic is alive and well, it's just changed and moved on from the more poppy 80s/90s dance/club industrial like NIN, Front 242, Skinny Puppy, KMFDM and Nitzer Ebb, Rammstein and that kind of axis where industrial was more clearly defined under the general umbrella of darkwave/goth and for a brief moment was it's own rather clearly defined thing.
I also think a huge part of that sound was the influence of the music industry and its demands. A lot of those 80s/90s industrial bands would have probably been a lot less cohesive as an aesthetic or poppy and would have made music that was a lot more experimental if they weren't trying to jump through the music industry hoops to get signed and be seen as marketable so they could afford to make any music that was edgy, dark and different at all.
posted by loquacious at 2:22 PM on April 24, 2023 [8 favorites]
I think a lot of it just fell out of the zeitgeist. A lot of the people I knew who were really into industrial still listen to it, and it still exists the way ska and rockabilly still exists and has its own subcultures.
A lot of industrial fans I knew also branched out into experimental and noise which is also definitely still a thing. Which makes sense because, well, that's what industrial music really was as in the Throbbing Gristle and Industrial Records definition of industrial music that influenced poppier dance industrial stuff like Sigue Sigue Sputnik, Pop Will Eat Itself and on through to later NIN, KMFDM, Ministry and more. (or Cabaret Voiltaire, or Soft Cell and so on.)
For me personally I just, I don't know, maybe mellowed out and matured or something and realized I wasn't really enjoying music that spent most of it's time being shouty or shouting at me and I just was no longer enjoying edgy music that made me feel that kind of anxious, shouty or even whiny.
I still listen to a lot of music that most people would find abrasive, edgy or anxiety producing but that tends to be techno, electro and stuff that's much more tense and minimal like dub techno, minimal or melancholic deep house.
Relatively new and current techno stuff like this, especially that first Rosa Anschütz / Rigid / Kobosil 44 track in that playlist.
And if you dive into the current state of techno right now and over about the last 5-10 years it's had a huge revival and it's going hard and dark as fuck.
There's a bunch of modern techno out now that would have absolutely destroyed the darkwave/industrial clubs I used to go to in the 90s. That Rosa Anschütz track would have made people's heads just straight up explode at Club Post Nuclear or Kontrol Faktory.
Or this is Tale of Us just last week at Coachella 2023. Or try this short video of an even bigger stage and video wall. Or here's a whole set from them. (I haven't seen thus before and haven't vetted it.)
Note that Tale of Us is arguably relatively mainstream in EDM right now and playing huge festivals. I'm just picking easy examples.
And this is just in the general modern techno space. There's a bunch of other darkwave/industrial-ish music in stuff like witch house, synthwave and more, it just doesn't neatly fit into the 80s/90s box of "dance/club industrial", which musically speaking was kind of it's own self-marketed and created genre and aesthetic not unlike hair metal or death metal or something.
I don't have any examples or links handy but I've found stuff on YouTube or Soundcloud that's... I guess it's witch house or something? It's basically industrial lo fi trap goth? Like it sounds like Boards of Canada, power electronics/noise, early NIN, trap and maybe some breakcore intentionally had an evil demonic baby.
I think the industrial aesthetic is alive and well, it's just changed and moved on from the more poppy 80s/90s dance/club industrial like NIN, Front 242, Skinny Puppy, KMFDM and Nitzer Ebb, Rammstein and that kind of axis where industrial was more clearly defined under the general umbrella of darkwave/goth and for a brief moment was it's own rather clearly defined thing.
I also think a huge part of that sound was the influence of the music industry and its demands. A lot of those 80s/90s industrial bands would have probably been a lot less cohesive as an aesthetic or poppy and would have made music that was a lot more experimental if they weren't trying to jump through the music industry hoops to get signed and be seen as marketable so they could afford to make any music that was edgy, dark and different at all.
posted by loquacious at 2:22 PM on April 24, 2023 [8 favorites]
panama joe: So that’s my theory. Grunge was more of a cultural force than a distinctive musical genre.
Oh exactly. I think grunge can’t be properly understood unless people take heed of a fundamental aspect of hipster culture, namely that it is a female subculture.
In the late 70s, there was a lot of ironic reappropriation of housewifery by young women. This seems to have been happening all over the world, but in the Pacific Northwest, specifically in Olympia, Washington, it became a subculture. I laid out this theory in tedious detail in a comment last year.
Grunge, as a genre marker, only really makes sense when thought about as the project of male hipsters in search of an authentic male equivalent to the housewife to emulate ironically. But because there was nothing for men that had the same depth and significance, they cycled from twee through grunge into working class dad, to bearded craftsman and so on.
posted by Kattullus at 2:25 PM on April 24, 2023 [1 favorite]
Oh exactly. I think grunge can’t be properly understood unless people take heed of a fundamental aspect of hipster culture, namely that it is a female subculture.
In the late 70s, there was a lot of ironic reappropriation of housewifery by young women. This seems to have been happening all over the world, but in the Pacific Northwest, specifically in Olympia, Washington, it became a subculture. I laid out this theory in tedious detail in a comment last year.
Grunge, as a genre marker, only really makes sense when thought about as the project of male hipsters in search of an authentic male equivalent to the housewife to emulate ironically. But because there was nothing for men that had the same depth and significance, they cycled from twee through grunge into working class dad, to bearded craftsman and so on.
posted by Kattullus at 2:25 PM on April 24, 2023 [1 favorite]
From the article that chavenet posted: By then only outsiders earnestly used the term “grunge” as a noun. “It was an overhyped, inflated word that doesn’t have actual meaning in Seattle,” said Charles R. Cross, former editor and publisher of Pacific Northwest alternative paper The Rocket and author of the Kurt Cobain biography Heavier Than Heaven. “It’s a time marker more than a description of music.”
And I think this is part of my push back about Jane's Addiction's place on this list and not articulating my disagreement very well.
Not only was grunge not really a clearly defined thing, but the whole concept of "alternative rock/music" is suspect because it was pretty much intentionally and specifically manufactured by the music industry as a catch-all junk drawer of a genre for basically anything that didn't fit into their top 40 charts world view and trying to figure out how to put music fans and consumers into a box so they could figure out how to sell counterculture back to itself, yet again.
When I think back to this era it's so totally bizarre and weird to me that this label of "alternative music" somehow attempted to contain everything from The Cure to King Missile, The Butthole Surfers to Art of Noise or OMD or Depeche Mode or Pigface or Tori Amos or The Pixies or Echo and the Bunnymen or Smashing Pumpkins or Pearl Jam or The Stone Roses or Ned's Atomic Dustbin or Edie Brickell or Primal Scream or Spiritualized or Sisters of Mercy or Social Distortion or INXS or Jesus and Mary Chain or ... I can keep going, heh.
I mean the music and radio industry really did try to put those all in the same kind of box. I could hear all of those and more on the same day on KROQ back in the day because it was the "alternative music/rock" station, and most of them would have been in the "alternative" sections of commercial record stores.
Sure, Jane's Addiction could have sold even more records and would have still had a following. They could have been as big as Red Hot Chili Peppers. Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe they would have self destructed anyway or faded away like any other number of bands from the era.
But Farrell made a whole lot more money with Loolapalooza. The article is about music business mistakes, and for better or worse Farrell also walked away with the bulk of the percentage points of Ritual de lo Habitual, which I'm sure is still selling.
While it's unfortunate for any JA fans who wanted more albums but from a music business aspect it's actually a full on win however cut-throat and ruthless as it was.
The reasons why I think it doesn't belong on this list of "biggest music business mistakes of all time" are very complicated and personal, but a huge part of it is because it isn't really a business failure.
posted by loquacious at 3:01 PM on April 24, 2023 [5 favorites]
And I think this is part of my push back about Jane's Addiction's place on this list and not articulating my disagreement very well.
Not only was grunge not really a clearly defined thing, but the whole concept of "alternative rock/music" is suspect because it was pretty much intentionally and specifically manufactured by the music industry as a catch-all junk drawer of a genre for basically anything that didn't fit into their top 40 charts world view and trying to figure out how to put music fans and consumers into a box so they could figure out how to sell counterculture back to itself, yet again.
When I think back to this era it's so totally bizarre and weird to me that this label of "alternative music" somehow attempted to contain everything from The Cure to King Missile, The Butthole Surfers to Art of Noise or OMD or Depeche Mode or Pigface or Tori Amos or The Pixies or Echo and the Bunnymen or Smashing Pumpkins or Pearl Jam or The Stone Roses or Ned's Atomic Dustbin or Edie Brickell or Primal Scream or Spiritualized or Sisters of Mercy or Social Distortion or INXS or Jesus and Mary Chain or ... I can keep going, heh.
I mean the music and radio industry really did try to put those all in the same kind of box. I could hear all of those and more on the same day on KROQ back in the day because it was the "alternative music/rock" station, and most of them would have been in the "alternative" sections of commercial record stores.
Sure, Jane's Addiction could have sold even more records and would have still had a following. They could have been as big as Red Hot Chili Peppers. Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe they would have self destructed anyway or faded away like any other number of bands from the era.
But Farrell made a whole lot more money with Loolapalooza. The article is about music business mistakes, and for better or worse Farrell also walked away with the bulk of the percentage points of Ritual de lo Habitual, which I'm sure is still selling.
While it's unfortunate for any JA fans who wanted more albums but from a music business aspect it's actually a full on win however cut-throat and ruthless as it was.
The reasons why I think it doesn't belong on this list of "biggest music business mistakes of all time" are very complicated and personal, but a huge part of it is because it isn't really a business failure.
posted by loquacious at 3:01 PM on April 24, 2023 [5 favorites]
I admire loquacious' need to defend their position across any and all takers, even those which don't exist.
posted by hippybear at 3:04 PM on April 24, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by hippybear at 3:04 PM on April 24, 2023 [3 favorites]
SGT. PEPPER´S Lonely Club Band. Bee Gees, Peter Framptom. 1978.
posted by chavenet at 3:12 PM on April 24, 2023
posted by chavenet at 3:12 PM on April 24, 2023
Just jumping in here to say that the Monkees making Head might not have been the best business decision but it sure as heck was an amazing artistic one
posted by treepour at 3:17 PM on April 24, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by treepour at 3:17 PM on April 24, 2023 [5 favorites]
Ah, yes, the Sgt. Pepper movie. I was 16 when it was released, but since I read every issue of um, Rolling Stone at that time, I knew what to expect. One of my friends was not so lucky. He went to see it and I guess didn't even look at the poster, so he had no idea what he was in for. He was quite disappointed in the lack of any actual Beatle content.
posted by freakazoid at 3:18 PM on April 24, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by freakazoid at 3:18 PM on April 24, 2023 [1 favorite]
> But like … why the actual anger though? What harm were they causing? Were there still enough people on dial-up in … 2014? … that folks were concerned about the download eating up their bandwidth?
No. Just a lot of people think that U2 fucking sucks. Its not about bandwidth, its about aggressive fucking marketing and shoving something that you don't want down your throat.
posted by lkc at 4:59 PM on April 24, 2023 [4 favorites]
No. Just a lot of people think that U2 fucking sucks. Its not about bandwidth, its about aggressive fucking marketing and shoving something that you don't want down your throat.
posted by lkc at 4:59 PM on April 24, 2023 [4 favorites]
If I remember right, I think people were mad that this album was taking up storage space on their phone. This was probably a bigger issue ten years ago.
posted by kittens for breakfast at 5:04 PM on April 24, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by kittens for breakfast at 5:04 PM on April 24, 2023 [3 favorites]
→
If you hate yourself and everything around you, that is. Big Generator (known forever as "Big Germinator" amongst my school friends) is a rancid mess. I track down a used copy from a chain of used CD stores a couple of years ago. I played it once and I was howling with laughter the whole way through.
In my own musical sphere, the biggest monetary screw-ups would have been Tony Wilson's contract structure at Factory Records, and the Beta Band's signing with a major label.
Though he's a terrible person, Van Morrison's first contract being owned by the mob is a hilarious story
posted by scruss at 5:14 PM on April 24, 2023 [2 favorites]
… Big Generator. If you haven't checked that one out, that's probably the one you're looking for.
If you hate yourself and everything around you, that is. Big Generator (known forever as "Big Germinator" amongst my school friends) is a rancid mess. I track down a used copy from a chain of used CD stores a couple of years ago. I played it once and I was howling with laughter the whole way through.
In my own musical sphere, the biggest monetary screw-ups would have been Tony Wilson's contract structure at Factory Records, and the Beta Band's signing with a major label.
Though he's a terrible person, Van Morrison's first contract being owned by the mob is a hilarious story
posted by scruss at 5:14 PM on April 24, 2023 [2 favorites]
Though he's a terrible person, Van Morrison's first contract being owned by the mob is a hilarious story
If the list had been done a few decades ago, so-and-so signing with Roulette Records (notorious non-payer owned by the even more notorious Morris Levy and allegedly a front for the Genovese crime family) would most likely have made the list.
posted by gtrwolf at 6:39 PM on April 24, 2023 [4 favorites]
If the list had been done a few decades ago, so-and-so signing with Roulette Records (notorious non-payer owned by the even more notorious Morris Levy and allegedly a front for the Genovese crime family) would most likely have made the list.
posted by gtrwolf at 6:39 PM on April 24, 2023 [4 favorites]
If I remember right, I think people were mad that this album was taking up storage space on their phone. This was probably a bigger issue ten years ago.
It's like you came home and found your nice leftovers or veggies or something out on the counter because Pepsi came into your house and made room put a bunch of sugar water in there instead.
Also, as I recall part of the outrage was that the album autoplayed for a lot of people, like they got into their car and their phone paired up and started playing U2 without asking for it to be played.
There are a number of plausible if niche ways that unexplained or unwanted music could cause real problems ranging from "you're not allowed to have music on your work device" or misunderstandings and arguments between couples. Or maybe a minor had a very strict, religious or outright abusive parent or family that thought they stole or pirated the music or modern music was forbidden. Or someone's phone or device crashing and losing data or service because it pushed them over the edge of memory limits or monthly bandwidth caps.
I'm honestly surprised they didn't get hit with a class action lawsuit over that marketing stunt.
Like there's no way it didn't cause some amount of tangible stress and even possible harm to some people because of how large the deployment was.
posted by loquacious at 6:44 PM on April 24, 2023 [3 favorites]
It's like you came home and found your nice leftovers or veggies or something out on the counter because Pepsi came into your house and made room put a bunch of sugar water in there instead.
Also, as I recall part of the outrage was that the album autoplayed for a lot of people, like they got into their car and their phone paired up and started playing U2 without asking for it to be played.
There are a number of plausible if niche ways that unexplained or unwanted music could cause real problems ranging from "you're not allowed to have music on your work device" or misunderstandings and arguments between couples. Or maybe a minor had a very strict, religious or outright abusive parent or family that thought they stole or pirated the music or modern music was forbidden. Or someone's phone or device crashing and losing data or service because it pushed them over the edge of memory limits or monthly bandwidth caps.
I'm honestly surprised they didn't get hit with a class action lawsuit over that marketing stunt.
Like there's no way it didn't cause some amount of tangible stress and even possible harm to some people because of how large the deployment was.
posted by loquacious at 6:44 PM on April 24, 2023 [3 favorites]
If I remember right, I think people were mad that this album was taking up storage space on their phone. This was probably a bigger issue ten years ago.
Really? In 2014?
posted by panama joe at 8:49 PM on April 24, 2023 [1 favorite]
Really? In 2014?
posted by panama joe at 8:49 PM on April 24, 2023 [1 favorite]
I'm a pretty avowed U2 fan, curious about where they take their project next and always fascinated by the next evolution and adventure...
But man... like seriously, that Songs Of Innocence album thing with Apple with a GIGANTIC fuckup.
Not just that it wasn't opt-in to begin with... I mean, they basically put the album on your phone like a virus...
But also like a virus, you couldn't delete the damn thing the way you could delete anything else in your library. You could have bought something from iTunes at the same time that album released and you could delete that iTunes purchase but not that U2 album.
I mean, I get what they were trying to do... but wow, they really did NOT do it the right way. Both from the universal nature of the distribution of the album, but also the method they used to force it onto everyone's device made those music tracks somehow indestructible even if you insisted.
And honestly, even as a fan, Songs Of Innocence is NOT one of their better albums. Given when this happened, when dance music was taking over the charts, they would have done better to push POP to everyone. That album was truly years ahead of its time.
posted by hippybear at 9:03 PM on April 24, 2023 [7 favorites]
But man... like seriously, that Songs Of Innocence album thing with Apple with a GIGANTIC fuckup.
Not just that it wasn't opt-in to begin with... I mean, they basically put the album on your phone like a virus...
But also like a virus, you couldn't delete the damn thing the way you could delete anything else in your library. You could have bought something from iTunes at the same time that album released and you could delete that iTunes purchase but not that U2 album.
I mean, I get what they were trying to do... but wow, they really did NOT do it the right way. Both from the universal nature of the distribution of the album, but also the method they used to force it onto everyone's device made those music tracks somehow indestructible even if you insisted.
And honestly, even as a fan, Songs Of Innocence is NOT one of their better albums. Given when this happened, when dance music was taking over the charts, they would have done better to push POP to everyone. That album was truly years ahead of its time.
posted by hippybear at 9:03 PM on April 24, 2023 [7 favorites]
In some alternate universe, Rolling Stone laments how mostly forgotten one album artist Elvis Costello was selected for best new artist instead of world renowned, 40 year veteran dance music innovators, Taste of Honey.
posted by Joey Michaels at 12:53 AM on April 25, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by Joey Michaels at 12:53 AM on April 25, 2023 [4 favorites]
Also, as I recall part of the outrage was that the album autoplayed for a lot of people, like they got into their car and their phone paired up and started playing U2 without asking for it to be played
This was definitely also part of it. The songs would keep showing up in my playlists when I was on shuffle, and usually at the beginning, even though I had a few hundred songs and the odds against that happening should have been really high. And they weren’t particularly good songs.
It started out as irritation, but when you literally couldn’t make them go away, that’s when the anger set in.
posted by Mchelly at 5:13 AM on April 25, 2023 [3 favorites]
This was definitely also part of it. The songs would keep showing up in my playlists when I was on shuffle, and usually at the beginning, even though I had a few hundred songs and the odds against that happening should have been really high. And they weren’t particularly good songs.
It started out as irritation, but when you literally couldn’t make them go away, that’s when the anger set in.
posted by Mchelly at 5:13 AM on April 25, 2023 [3 favorites]
It was as if Apple and U2 were teaming up to let you know that your vehicle's extended warranty was expiring.
posted by delfin at 5:58 AM on April 25, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by delfin at 5:58 AM on April 25, 2023 [5 favorites]
The way people talk about the Apple/U2 thing is the kind of thing that makes me doubt my own memory.
Like, I'm pretty sure that it showed up in my iTunes library, I immediately deleted it without any particular difficulty, and that was the end of it.
It boggles my mind that other people had such different experiences.
posted by box at 6:07 AM on April 25, 2023 [1 favorite]
Like, I'm pretty sure that it showed up in my iTunes library, I immediately deleted it without any particular difficulty, and that was the end of it.
It boggles my mind that other people had such different experiences.
posted by box at 6:07 AM on April 25, 2023 [1 favorite]
Googling it, I found a discussion on Apple's support forum discussing how Apple made a web tool available to remove the album at the time, but once two-factor authentication was implemented the tool no longer worked. "Customers are no longer able to remove the album on their own. You will need to reach out to Apple Support directly to have the album removed," a Community Specialist confirmed.
As with many infection types, early treatment is essential before complications set in.
posted by delfin at 6:15 AM on April 25, 2023 [7 favorites]
As with many infection types, early treatment is essential before complications set in.
posted by delfin at 6:15 AM on April 25, 2023 [7 favorites]
Here's the MetaFilter post at the time about U2's Age of Innocence, and how its reception was received.
posted by Pronoiac at 7:39 AM on April 25, 2023 [6 favorites]
posted by Pronoiac at 7:39 AM on April 25, 2023 [6 favorites]
Grunge, as a genre marker, only really makes sense when thought about as the project of male hipsters in search of an authentic male equivalent to the housewife to emulate ironically
I think grunge was an actual musical genre, even if hipsters in Seattle (like seriously all of Mark Arm's (Mudhoney) bands sound alike) disagree. And the number of Pearl Jam clones at the time was pretty noticeable. Maybe not if you only listened to the grunge pop hits, but they were out there. Sludgy tones, mid-tempo rocking with a tempo change, sounds like Pearl Jam or Soundgarden.
And I don't think people would have been as mad about the U2 thing if it was a decent album - but even as fan of U2 I think all the songs are subpar.
posted by The_Vegetables at 7:58 AM on April 25, 2023 [2 favorites]
I think grunge was an actual musical genre, even if hipsters in Seattle (like seriously all of Mark Arm's (Mudhoney) bands sound alike) disagree. And the number of Pearl Jam clones at the time was pretty noticeable. Maybe not if you only listened to the grunge pop hits, but they were out there. Sludgy tones, mid-tempo rocking with a tempo change, sounds like Pearl Jam or Soundgarden.
And I don't think people would have been as mad about the U2 thing if it was a decent album - but even as fan of U2 I think all the songs are subpar.
posted by The_Vegetables at 7:58 AM on April 25, 2023 [2 favorites]
The album wasn't just added to your library, it was added to your purchase history as if you'd bought it. That meant if you tried to delete it from your computer you'd probably still have placeholders in your library allowing you to redownload it, as you do other purchases.
Plus, given the disjoint nature of Apple's cloud offerings (then and now) deleting it on one device wouldn't necessarily remove it everywhere else.
If you knew what you were doing you could go into your Account settings, find the purchase you never made and hide it from there, but if you didn't know to do that you were stuck.
(This suggests the UI for hiding purchases was a bit more obvious in iTunes for Windows, which might explain people's different experiences)
posted by grahamparks at 8:11 AM on April 25, 2023 [2 favorites]
Plus, given the disjoint nature of Apple's cloud offerings (then and now) deleting it on one device wouldn't necessarily remove it everywhere else.
If you knew what you were doing you could go into your Account settings, find the purchase you never made and hide it from there, but if you didn't know to do that you were stuck.
(This suggests the UI for hiding purchases was a bit more obvious in iTunes for Windows, which might explain people's different experiences)
posted by grahamparks at 8:11 AM on April 25, 2023 [2 favorites]
As head of A&R Dick Rowe later remembered:
Although Dick Rowe is occasionally ridiculed as the guy who passed up the Beatles, he eventually realized guitar groups weren't on the way out & signed The Rolling Stones instead. So he managed to recover his career quickly.
posted by jonp72 at 9:26 AM on April 25, 2023 [2 favorites]
Although Dick Rowe is occasionally ridiculed as the guy who passed up the Beatles, he eventually realized guitar groups weren't on the way out & signed The Rolling Stones instead. So he managed to recover his career quickly.
posted by jonp72 at 9:26 AM on April 25, 2023 [2 favorites]
I'm trying to think... in 1962 or whatever... what would be moving IN if guitar groups were moving out?
posted by hippybear at 9:28 AM on April 25, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by hippybear at 9:28 AM on April 25, 2023 [1 favorite]
Since we're speaking of the BeeGees and the Sgt Pepper's movie, I'm sharing a YT link below. In the scene, I believe that the BeeGees and Peter Frampton are sneaking up on Steven Tyler and Joe Perry attempting to kill their girlfriend during some light BDSM.
When I watched that scene during a midnight screening of Sgt Pepper's in college, I kept wanting Aerosmith to kick The Bee Gees' asses. Maybe Aerosmith isn't really metal, but that would have been so metal. \m/
Anyhow, the movie was so bad I remember the projectionist just spontaneously running screaming from the auditorium & the people watching the movie were like, "Yeah, that's fair."
posted by jonp72 at 9:32 AM on April 25, 2023 [3 favorites]
When I watched that scene during a midnight screening of Sgt Pepper's in college, I kept wanting Aerosmith to kick The Bee Gees' asses. Maybe Aerosmith isn't really metal, but that would have been so metal. \m/
Anyhow, the movie was so bad I remember the projectionist just spontaneously running screaming from the auditorium & the people watching the movie were like, "Yeah, that's fair."
posted by jonp72 at 9:32 AM on April 25, 2023 [3 favorites]
I'm trying to think... in 1962 or whatever... what would be moving IN if guitar groups were moving out?
I think some of it was just the guys in suits hoping that rock 'n' roll would die out as a fad, instead of being forced by the profit motive to sign all these ruffians with guitars.
posted by jonp72 at 9:34 AM on April 25, 2023 [2 favorites]
I think some of it was just the guys in suits hoping that rock 'n' roll would die out as a fad, instead of being forced by the profit motive to sign all these ruffians with guitars.
posted by jonp72 at 9:34 AM on April 25, 2023 [2 favorites]
Though he's a terrible person, Van Morrison's first contract being owned by the mob is a hilarious story
On the other hand, how Van Morrison got out of that contract is hilarious. He recorded an unreleasable "contractual obligation" album as a "Fuck you" to Ahmet Ertegun. Songs that he actually recorded include "You Say France and I Whistle," "Want a Danish," and "Ring Worm." What I find interesting about the recordings is that the vocal cadences are very similar to what he perfected on Astral Weeks, but the lyrics are just Dadaist nonsense that Van Morrison tossed off with an attitude of complete contempt.
If the list had been done a few decades ago, so-and-so signing with Roulette Records (notorious non-payer owned by the even more notorious Morris Levy and allegedly a front for the Genovese crime family) would most likely have made the list.
You mean, Tommy James of Tommy James and the Shondells. I need to get a copy of his biography, but it sounds like everything from "Many Many" to "Crystal Blue Persuasion" was just Tommy James trying to crank out hits to keep from getting whacked. Morris Levy was not only "connected" and crooked, but is the likely inspiration for the character of Hesh Rabkin in The Sopranos.
posted by jonp72 at 9:43 AM on April 25, 2023 [3 favorites]
On the other hand, how Van Morrison got out of that contract is hilarious. He recorded an unreleasable "contractual obligation" album as a "Fuck you" to Ahmet Ertegun. Songs that he actually recorded include "You Say France and I Whistle," "Want a Danish," and "Ring Worm." What I find interesting about the recordings is that the vocal cadences are very similar to what he perfected on Astral Weeks, but the lyrics are just Dadaist nonsense that Van Morrison tossed off with an attitude of complete contempt.
If the list had been done a few decades ago, so-and-so signing with Roulette Records (notorious non-payer owned by the even more notorious Morris Levy and allegedly a front for the Genovese crime family) would most likely have made the list.
You mean, Tommy James of Tommy James and the Shondells. I need to get a copy of his biography, but it sounds like everything from "Many Many" to "Crystal Blue Persuasion" was just Tommy James trying to crank out hits to keep from getting whacked. Morris Levy was not only "connected" and crooked, but is the likely inspiration for the character of Hesh Rabkin in The Sopranos.
posted by jonp72 at 9:43 AM on April 25, 2023 [3 favorites]
For some reason Michael Stipe's dad and Mel Brooks are wearing yellow and watching form a distance.
I just realized the guy who looks like Michael Stipe's dad (legit LOL'ed at this) is Carel Struycken, the same acromegalic character actor who played "Moonlight Man" in Gerald's Game and the Giant in the 2nd season of Twin Peaks. Sgt. Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band was his first movie, and according to his IMDB bio, he was literally plucked off the streets by a casting director to appear in the movie based on his look alone. Man, that movie just gets weirder and weirder the more I look at it.
posted by jonp72 at 9:52 AM on April 25, 2023 [3 favorites]
I just realized the guy who looks like Michael Stipe's dad (legit LOL'ed at this) is Carel Struycken, the same acromegalic character actor who played "Moonlight Man" in Gerald's Game and the Giant in the 2nd season of Twin Peaks. Sgt. Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band was his first movie, and according to his IMDB bio, he was literally plucked off the streets by a casting director to appear in the movie based on his look alone. Man, that movie just gets weirder and weirder the more I look at it.
posted by jonp72 at 9:52 AM on April 25, 2023 [3 favorites]
what would be moving IN if guitar groups were moving out?
Whaling songs!
posted by Devoidoid at 10:10 AM on April 25, 2023 [3 favorites]
Whaling songs!
posted by Devoidoid at 10:10 AM on April 25, 2023 [3 favorites]
in 1962 or whatever... what would be moving IN if guitar groups were moving out?
It's hard to know exactly what Dick Rowe was thinking, but one popular music trend with British youth at the time was Dixieland Jazz.
No, I'm not kidding.
posted by freakazoid at 10:34 AM on April 25, 2023 [3 favorites]
It's hard to know exactly what Dick Rowe was thinking, but one popular music trend with British youth at the time was Dixieland Jazz.
No, I'm not kidding.
posted by freakazoid at 10:34 AM on April 25, 2023 [3 favorites]
Kinda weird how industrial was like The Future of Music for a while, and then it just … disappeared. Like, what took its place? In the alternate timeline where Industrial actually was the future of music, what never got popular?
Like any of the other mainstream flareups of electronic club music it was around before and it was around after and it will be around years from now, too, but I feel like the mainstream wave of industrial rock kind of blended into the heavier side of “alt” and eventually “nu metal.” Which is an even faker genre than grunge (which was at least a regional scene).
posted by atoxyl at 10:40 AM on April 25, 2023 [2 favorites]
Like any of the other mainstream flareups of electronic club music it was around before and it was around after and it will be around years from now, too, but I feel like the mainstream wave of industrial rock kind of blended into the heavier side of “alt” and eventually “nu metal.” Which is an even faker genre than grunge (which was at least a regional scene).
posted by atoxyl at 10:40 AM on April 25, 2023 [2 favorites]
You mean, Tommy James of Tommy James and the Shondells. I need to get a copy of his biography, but it sounds like everything from "Many Many" to "Crystal Blue Persuasion" was just Tommy James trying to crank out hits to keep from getting whacked.
I've read his biography - it's fascinating. He wasn't in danger of getting whacked, from what I've read - he and Morris Levy had a strange sort of father-son relationship, and Levy in fact warned James to get out of town at one point to avoid being whacked by Levy's mob rivals. And James had complete creative control over his work.
On the other hand, the mob kept all of James's royalties - he was swindled out of millions of dollars. He didn't get any money until Roulette Records - Levy's label - was sold.
posted by tallmiddleagedgeek at 11:13 AM on April 25, 2023 [3 favorites]
I've read his biography - it's fascinating. He wasn't in danger of getting whacked, from what I've read - he and Morris Levy had a strange sort of father-son relationship, and Levy in fact warned James to get out of town at one point to avoid being whacked by Levy's mob rivals. And James had complete creative control over his work.
On the other hand, the mob kept all of James's royalties - he was swindled out of millions of dollars. He didn't get any money until Roulette Records - Levy's label - was sold.
posted by tallmiddleagedgeek at 11:13 AM on April 25, 2023 [3 favorites]
That’s great, freakazoid.
Would the brass instruments have invited interactions with the mine band traditions?
posted by clew at 12:57 PM on April 25, 2023 [1 favorite]
Would the brass instruments have invited interactions with the mine band traditions?
posted by clew at 12:57 PM on April 25, 2023 [1 favorite]
o_OMostly people just making mistakes they had no idea were mistakes.If you know it's a mistake, you tend not to make it.
posted by Flunkie at 1:25 PM on April 25, 2023 [3 favorites]
“On the other hand, how Van Morrison got out of that contract is hilarious. He recorded an unreleasable 'contractual obligation' album as a 'Fuck you' to Ahmet Ertegun.”
It was a "fuck you" to Bert Berns, not so much the Erteguns. I only checked on this because Ahmet Ertegun is one of the more fascinating alumni of St. John's College (as am I, though decidedly not fascinating).
posted by Ivan Fyodorovich at 2:29 PM on April 25, 2023 [3 favorites]
It was a "fuck you" to Bert Berns, not so much the Erteguns. I only checked on this because Ahmet Ertegun is one of the more fascinating alumni of St. John's College (as am I, though decidedly not fascinating).
posted by Ivan Fyodorovich at 2:29 PM on April 25, 2023 [3 favorites]
Thinking about the mandatory U2 album debacle it occurs to me that Spotify in 2023 is similar to iTunes in 2014. Both popular and profitable services that have recently realised that they've lost control of the music business to a newer competitor that's more popular with a younger audience.
I wonder if spotify will try a similarly goofy stunt that angers everybody in an attempt to stay relevant and keep tiktok at bay.
posted by zymil at 7:01 PM on April 25, 2023 [3 favorites]
I wonder if spotify will try a similarly goofy stunt that angers everybody in an attempt to stay relevant and keep tiktok at bay.
posted by zymil at 7:01 PM on April 25, 2023 [3 favorites]
Completely offtopic, but why did everybody hate R.E.M.'s Shiny Happy People so much? I mean, so what if Michael Stipe hates it? Does that mean we have to hate it, too? It's catchy as fuck, it has Kate Pierson vocaling on it, and ... damnit, it's a good song! Why was I supposed to hate it?
posted by panama joe at 2:52 AM on April 26, 2023 [6 favorites]
posted by panama joe at 2:52 AM on April 26, 2023 [6 favorites]
Shiny Happy People? Surely you mean Furry Happy Monsters!
posted by hippybear at 7:08 AM on April 26, 2023 [8 favorites]
posted by hippybear at 7:08 AM on April 26, 2023 [8 favorites]
hippybear, you just made my day
posted by panama joe at 9:42 AM on April 26, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by panama joe at 9:42 AM on April 26, 2023 [2 favorites]
why did everybody hate R.E.M.'s Shiny Happy People so much? I mean, so what if Michael Stipe hates it? Does that mean we have to hate it, too?
It came out in 1991. That was peak "cynical Gen-X hipsters" era.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 9:56 AM on April 26, 2023 [2 favorites]
It came out in 1991. That was peak "cynical Gen-X hipsters" era.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 9:56 AM on April 26, 2023 [2 favorites]
Ok...
Glad to hear from other people who remember Crash Worship. I saw them when I was 16 and it kind of literally changed my life. One of the greatest live performances I've ever seen. (I will give a slight runner up credit to Caroliner).
Why does Joni Mitchell's blackface period never get brought up? Oh right, it had no effect on her career and apparently nobody cares, even today.
If you listen to recent Van Morrison recordings, it almost sounds like he's trying to get back to his "Blowin' Your Mind" Ring Worm era. Y'know, now that he's a covid truther who hangs out with (apparently not racist now, according to RS) Clapton.
Sinbad O'Connor ripping up the pope's picture absolutely should have made this list.
posted by SystematicAbuse at 12:04 PM on April 26, 2023 [4 favorites]
Glad to hear from other people who remember Crash Worship. I saw them when I was 16 and it kind of literally changed my life. One of the greatest live performances I've ever seen. (I will give a slight runner up credit to Caroliner).
Why does Joni Mitchell's blackface period never get brought up? Oh right, it had no effect on her career and apparently nobody cares, even today.
If you listen to recent Van Morrison recordings, it almost sounds like he's trying to get back to his "Blowin' Your Mind" Ring Worm era. Y'know, now that he's a covid truther who hangs out with (apparently not racist now, according to RS) Clapton.
Sinbad O'Connor ripping up the pope's picture absolutely should have made this list.
posted by SystematicAbuse at 12:04 PM on April 26, 2023 [4 favorites]
Ripping up the Pope’s picture wasn’t a screwup, it was a kind of sacrifice.
I remember two Crash Worship concerts fondly. One was I think joint with SRL, or just the same weekend? The other, much smaller, was quite rightly shut down by the fire department but there was a rapid and mutually good natured discussion and everyone debouched into an alley and had as much fun doing somewhat less dangerous things, with the head-bobbing oversight of the firefighters.
posted by clew at 12:17 PM on April 26, 2023 [3 favorites]
I remember two Crash Worship concerts fondly. One was I think joint with SRL, or just the same weekend? The other, much smaller, was quite rightly shut down by the fire department but there was a rapid and mutually good natured discussion and everyone debouched into an alley and had as much fun doing somewhat less dangerous things, with the head-bobbing oversight of the firefighters.
posted by clew at 12:17 PM on April 26, 2023 [3 favorites]
Interesting to see spellcheck transformed "Sinead" into "Sinbad"
No doubt it was a sacrifice... I was just thinking that as far as a decision that completely ruined someone's career... Yeesh. She should've been hailed as a hero.
posted by SystematicAbuse at 12:36 PM on April 26, 2023 [1 favorite]
No doubt it was a sacrifice... I was just thinking that as far as a decision that completely ruined someone's career... Yeesh. She should've been hailed as a hero.
posted by SystematicAbuse at 12:36 PM on April 26, 2023 [1 favorite]
I was just thinking that as far as a decision that completely ruined someone's career... Yeesh. She should've been hailed as a hero.
yeah, that's why I tried to differentiate between something that was a "mistake" and something that was "they were making a stand on principle". Unless you're saying that THE PUBLIC were the people who made the mistake for pillorying her or the Dixie Chicks.
But anyway, I suspect that's why Sinead and the Dixie Chicks weren't on this list of "mistakes", because they're not mistakes.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 12:48 PM on April 26, 2023 [4 favorites]
yeah, that's why I tried to differentiate between something that was a "mistake" and something that was "they were making a stand on principle". Unless you're saying that THE PUBLIC were the people who made the mistake for pillorying her or the Dixie Chicks.
But anyway, I suspect that's why Sinead and the Dixie Chicks weren't on this list of "mistakes", because they're not mistakes.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 12:48 PM on April 26, 2023 [4 favorites]
Interesting to see spellcheck transformed "Sinead" into "Sinbad"
I thought it was a reference to Frank Sinatra on Saturday Night Live, which came out slightly before the Pope thing on SNL.
posted by The_Vegetables at 1:09 PM on April 26, 2023 [2 favorites]
I thought it was a reference to Frank Sinatra on Saturday Night Live, which came out slightly before the Pope thing on SNL.
posted by The_Vegetables at 1:09 PM on April 26, 2023 [2 favorites]
The other thing about the surprise U2 album is that we were in a phase where many people still felt like they owned and controlled their devices. We hadn't yet given up and accepted the fact that Google or Apple were gonna just meddle with the UI of our phones and how apps worked and everything anytime they wanted. We hadn't completely realized that these things in our pockets first and foremost belonged and worked for them.
U2 showing up unannounced in your pocket rubbed in your face the fact that you were more product than customer back when some people still had the spirit to care.
posted by straight at 4:17 PM on April 28, 2023 [2 favorites]
U2 showing up unannounced in your pocket rubbed in your face the fact that you were more product than customer back when some people still had the spirit to care.
posted by straight at 4:17 PM on April 28, 2023 [2 favorites]
Microsoft did this with Windows sometime in the 00s. I don't recall what the album was, but I do recall having to delete it several times. This wasn't a particularly new development.
posted by Ivan Fyodorovich at 6:49 AM on April 29, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by Ivan Fyodorovich at 6:49 AM on April 29, 2023 [1 favorite]
In some alternate universe, Rolling Stone laments how mostly forgotten one album artist Elvis Costello was selected for best new artist instead of world renowned, 40 year veteran dance music innovators, Taste of Honey.
Which episode of Black Mirror was this?
posted by gtrwolf at 1:38 PM on April 29, 2023 [1 favorite]
Which episode of Black Mirror was this?
posted by gtrwolf at 1:38 PM on April 29, 2023 [1 favorite]
Microsoft did this with Windows sometime in the 00s
Um yeah. So then there was the time that Microsoft wanted so badly to “upgrade” windows 7 PCs to Windows 10 that they popped up a dialog on bootup where clicking the X in the upper right hand corner did not in fact dismiss the dialog, but actually installed Windows 10. Wish I was making this up, but I’m not.
This is after several months of increasingly pushy notifications trying to get me to upgrade. I saw these notifications and dismissed them on purpose because my computer was fine, it ran fine, it was just a little old, and I knew it wasn’t really capable of running windows 10.
So yeah, I fell for it. A lot of people fell for it. And as expected, after the forced upgrade, that computer ran like a dog and I had to replace it.
How this was even legal, I can’t begin to tell you.
posted by panama joe at 9:21 AM on May 1, 2023 [2 favorites]
Um yeah. So then there was the time that Microsoft wanted so badly to “upgrade” windows 7 PCs to Windows 10 that they popped up a dialog on bootup where clicking the X in the upper right hand corner did not in fact dismiss the dialog, but actually installed Windows 10. Wish I was making this up, but I’m not.
This is after several months of increasingly pushy notifications trying to get me to upgrade. I saw these notifications and dismissed them on purpose because my computer was fine, it ran fine, it was just a little old, and I knew it wasn’t really capable of running windows 10.
So yeah, I fell for it. A lot of people fell for it. And as expected, after the forced upgrade, that computer ran like a dog and I had to replace it.
How this was even legal, I can’t begin to tell you.
posted by panama joe at 9:21 AM on May 1, 2023 [2 favorites]
panama joe> Kinda weird how industrial was like The Future of Music for a while, and then it just … disappeared.
Every now and then I hear a weird little staticky glitchy bendy note in a pop song and I think that industrial may have rusted away, but little flakes are still stuck to everyone's shoes.
posted by nickzoic at 11:36 PM on May 16, 2023 [4 favorites]
Every now and then I hear a weird little staticky glitchy bendy note in a pop song and I think that industrial may have rusted away, but little flakes are still stuck to everyone's shoes.
posted by nickzoic at 11:36 PM on May 16, 2023 [4 favorites]
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