MtG YouTuber Says Pinkertons Threatened Him With $200k Fines, Jail
April 26, 2023 8:15 AM Subscribe
Cartoonish levels of evil.
posted by Fizz at 8:21 AM on April 26, 2023 [7 favorites]
posted by Fizz at 8:21 AM on April 26, 2023 [7 favorites]
They are and they've killed people as recently as 2020.
posted by GoblinHoney at 8:21 AM on April 26, 2023 [15 favorites]
posted by GoblinHoney at 8:21 AM on April 26, 2023 [15 favorites]
Wizards of the Coast representatives pictured here.
posted by Fizz at 8:31 AM on April 26, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by Fizz at 8:31 AM on April 26, 2023 [2 favorites]
Cannon told Kotaku that he is currently unsure about pursuing legal action.
Good lord, man. GET CERTAIN.
posted by ZaphodB at 8:32 AM on April 26, 2023 [19 favorites]
Good lord, man. GET CERTAIN.
posted by ZaphodB at 8:32 AM on April 26, 2023 [19 favorites]
WotC fucking-up again, and making their victim pay for it. Asshats. Maybe, I dunno, politely ask for the erroneously-shipped cards back? Maybe sweeten the deal with some “oops, our bad” swag? No. Instead, they send the private hit-squad, Pinkertons, after the guy. They’re lucky the thugs didn’t beat the guy to a pulp.
posted by Thorzdad at 8:33 AM on April 26, 2023 [9 favorites]
posted by Thorzdad at 8:33 AM on April 26, 2023 [9 favorites]
I worked for Pinkerton in college. They had a comic book as a training manual. It had a Pinkerton Service Heroes page in the back. I think they're number 2 for market share? Union busting thugs never go out of style sadly.
posted by BrotherCaine at 8:33 AM on April 26, 2023 [20 favorites]
posted by BrotherCaine at 8:33 AM on April 26, 2023 [20 favorites]
Apparently, Hasbro's head of risk management is an ex-Pinkerton, hence why they were option 1.
posted by NoxAeternum at 8:35 AM on April 26, 2023 [25 favorites]
posted by NoxAeternum at 8:35 AM on April 26, 2023 [25 favorites]
~Cannon told Kotaku that he is currently unsure about pursuing legal action.
~Good lord, man. GET CERTAIN.
I have to assume the Pinkertons left him with a “no lawyers or we’ll be back” warning. If you’re just a vlogger, it’s probably a hard choice between possibly bankrupting yourself with legal fees and/or “accidentally” falling from a tenth-floor balcony.
posted by Thorzdad at 8:36 AM on April 26, 2023 [2 favorites]
~Good lord, man. GET CERTAIN.
I have to assume the Pinkertons left him with a “no lawyers or we’ll be back” warning. If you’re just a vlogger, it’s probably a hard choice between possibly bankrupting yourself with legal fees and/or “accidentally” falling from a tenth-floor balcony.
posted by Thorzdad at 8:36 AM on April 26, 2023 [2 favorites]
"I worked for union busting thugs in college"
and I thought the desperate summer I worked at a porno store was bad
posted by elkevelvet at 8:37 AM on April 26, 2023 [21 favorites]
and I thought the desperate summer I worked at a porno store was bad
posted by elkevelvet at 8:37 AM on April 26, 2023 [21 favorites]
I shared this with a friend who is massively into MtG and he very casually said that the dude spoiled an entire unreleased set of cards and that he "knew what he was doing".
All I've got to say to that is a big ol' YIKES.
posted by robotmachine at 8:48 AM on April 26, 2023 [8 favorites]
All I've got to say to that is a big ol' YIKES.
posted by robotmachine at 8:48 AM on April 26, 2023 [8 favorites]
At the very least, the Pinkertons take pride in their name as union busting, private rich man army mercancies - keeping it as a badge of honor. As opposed to say, Blackwater, Xe, Academi, Constellis and whatever Erik Prince's merc force will be known as in 6 months.
But seriously, all of this over a screwup in their absolutely confusingly named product lines. Instead of owning the mistake (because shit happens) and running with it as fanservice, they went full good.
Dude absolutely should absolutely sue. And any fan saying he deserved this should just wait for the next set of cards and they'll forget all about it.
posted by drewbage1847 at 8:50 AM on April 26, 2023 [9 favorites]
But seriously, all of this over a screwup in their absolutely confusingly named product lines. Instead of owning the mistake (because shit happens) and running with it as fanservice, they went full good.
Dude absolutely should absolutely sue. And any fan saying he deserved this should just wait for the next set of cards and they'll forget all about it.
posted by drewbage1847 at 8:50 AM on April 26, 2023 [9 favorites]
Why didn't they offer dude five figures and an NDA? Just, stupid. Stupid stupid even.
posted by seanmpuckett at 8:58 AM on April 26, 2023 [11 favorites]
posted by seanmpuckett at 8:58 AM on April 26, 2023 [11 favorites]
I know the Pinkerton's are evil, but the post did make me imagine that Weezer showed up at the guy's apartment to throw their weight around.
posted by Abehammerb Lincoln at 9:18 AM on April 26, 2023 [12 favorites]
posted by Abehammerb Lincoln at 9:18 AM on April 26, 2023 [12 favorites]
At the very least, the Pinkertons take pride in their name as union busting, private rich man army mercancies - keeping it as a badge of honor.
That's because they have the name/branding of their parent company for the employer who doesn't want to apply that badge: Securitas. Those three red dots are *everywhere* in private security.
posted by CrystalDave at 9:20 AM on April 26, 2023 [14 favorites]
That's because they have the name/branding of their parent company for the employer who doesn't want to apply that badge: Securitas. Those three red dots are *everywhere* in private security.
posted by CrystalDave at 9:20 AM on April 26, 2023 [14 favorites]
So... they went after a loyal customer (over a million cards in his house already), rather than... say the corporate entity that sold the cards to him?
He went to a location, exchanged money - and received the goods - at that point, do they not become his property? This is not software with a revocable license that change change over time.
Who broke the law here? He certainly didn't. Idiot Hasbro can't even go 6-months without a controversy.
posted by rozcakj at 9:21 AM on April 26, 2023 [26 favorites]
He went to a location, exchanged money - and received the goods - at that point, do they not become his property? This is not software with a revocable license that change change over time.
Who broke the law here? He certainly didn't. Idiot Hasbro can't even go 6-months without a controversy.
posted by rozcakj at 9:21 AM on April 26, 2023 [26 favorites]
I wonder if they are least refunded him the purchase price.
Either way the cards, being unreleased cards of a collectable card game, have got to be worth significantly more.
posted by Mitheral at 9:22 AM on April 26, 2023
Either way the cards, being unreleased cards of a collectable card game, have got to be worth significantly more.
posted by Mitheral at 9:22 AM on April 26, 2023
"They also said if I didn’t hand over the product, they would call the county sheriff and detain us until they arrived to arrest us and search my house for the product and that they would most likely force us to show receipts for every magic card in the house (which is literally over a million cards)."
I like to think that the law is firmly on Cannon's side here, and that if he'd called their bluff the local sheriff would've told the Pinkertons to get fucked and file a complaint / lawsuit if they want to recover legitimately purchased materials. I like to think that, but this is 2023 and TBH I no longer have any faith that being legally in the right is likely to override Pinkerton thugs.
If Cannon was given the wrong materials, this is no fault of his. I don't see how the Pinkertons or WoTC have any standing to do anything more than ask politely for the cards back and/or ask that he take down any videos that have copyrighted content.
This is such an asinine and belligerent move by WoTC. They had a great opportunity to reach out to a fan and say "whoops! We made a boo-boo and we'd really appreciate your help in fixing it. How can we compensate you to take down your videos until these are officially released?"
Instead they went with union-busting thugs. This is after a huge debacle with the Open Gaming License that they've apparently learned nothing from. Fuck them.
posted by jzb at 9:23 AM on April 26, 2023 [17 favorites]
I like to think that the law is firmly on Cannon's side here, and that if he'd called their bluff the local sheriff would've told the Pinkertons to get fucked and file a complaint / lawsuit if they want to recover legitimately purchased materials. I like to think that, but this is 2023 and TBH I no longer have any faith that being legally in the right is likely to override Pinkerton thugs.
If Cannon was given the wrong materials, this is no fault of his. I don't see how the Pinkertons or WoTC have any standing to do anything more than ask politely for the cards back and/or ask that he take down any videos that have copyrighted content.
This is such an asinine and belligerent move by WoTC. They had a great opportunity to reach out to a fan and say "whoops! We made a boo-boo and we'd really appreciate your help in fixing it. How can we compensate you to take down your videos until these are officially released?"
Instead they went with union-busting thugs. This is after a huge debacle with the Open Gaming License that they've apparently learned nothing from. Fuck them.
posted by jzb at 9:23 AM on April 26, 2023 [17 favorites]
Debating the legality doesn't really matter, Pinkertons/cops are going to intimidate and uphold the rights of a corporation/property-owner EVERY fucking time. And in that moment when someone is pressing on you and using fear and threats, its understandable why they may opt to just comply regardless of whether or not they legally have any rights in that situation.
posted by Fizz at 9:23 AM on April 26, 2023 [6 favorites]
posted by Fizz at 9:23 AM on April 26, 2023 [6 favorites]
Wizards seems to not understand they have just given millions of people the moral go ahead to pirate their everything they can from them by doing this.
posted by ignignokt at 9:27 AM on April 26, 2023 [10 favorites]
posted by ignignokt at 9:27 AM on April 26, 2023 [10 favorites]
If Wizards ruins the Cultural Moment that D&D is having right now by being complete asshats, I've got a party of five level-4 badasses who will have some very stern words for them.
posted by gurple at 9:33 AM on April 26, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by gurple at 9:33 AM on April 26, 2023 [3 favorites]
I wish I had some faith that hiring Pinkertons would ruin this cultural moment. I worry that it's going to be more of the "he knew what he was doing and deserved it" response described above.
posted by gentlyepigrams at 9:46 AM on April 26, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by gentlyepigrams at 9:46 AM on April 26, 2023 [1 favorite]
"he knew what he was doing and deserved it"
Hardcore "fuck that" to this tired bullshit that gets dumped out for literally every news story where something bad happens to a person. What's the point of such an observation, such a comment? So fucking sick and tired of hearing it for every goddamn event. People who have that kind of thought, should keep it to themselves with the rest of their toilet tier ideas.
posted by GoblinHoney at 9:53 AM on April 26, 2023 [14 favorites]
Hardcore "fuck that" to this tired bullshit that gets dumped out for literally every news story where something bad happens to a person. What's the point of such an observation, such a comment? So fucking sick and tired of hearing it for every goddamn event. People who have that kind of thought, should keep it to themselves with the rest of their toilet tier ideas.
posted by GoblinHoney at 9:53 AM on April 26, 2023 [14 favorites]
A few months ago when the Open Game License debacle happened I confidently declared that it was the worst misreading of their core audience Wizards of the Coast could have committed. So I guess I look pretty stupid right now.
I would guess the majority of Americans have never heard of the Pinkertons. I would guess that of the Americans who have heard of the Pinkertons, the majority either don’t know they still exist or are unaware of their historical (and ongoing) role as a private army of murderous thugs for corporate interests.
But the core audience for Wizards of the Coast’s products is nerds. Nerds generally have a slightly-above-average knowledge of history, but in regards to the Pinkertons specifically nerds are more likely than most to be familiar because of their role as antagonists in the Red Dead Redemption video games.
When I have a little extra money I want to put to work for me I buy stocks in companies whose products I use and generally believe in. I’m a tabletop roleplaying game player so I have a handful of shares in Hasbro because despite the many valid complaints about the system I do think Dungeons & Dragons 5th Edition is a functional game that lends itself well to growing the community. My Hasbro stock is worth about half what it was a year ago, and the series of terrible business decisions the company has made in the past six months has more than one person I’ve seen online speculate that they must be intentionally tanking their stock. It’s just wildly bad judgment.
posted by Parasite Unseen at 9:54 AM on April 26, 2023 [10 favorites]
I would guess the majority of Americans have never heard of the Pinkertons. I would guess that of the Americans who have heard of the Pinkertons, the majority either don’t know they still exist or are unaware of their historical (and ongoing) role as a private army of murderous thugs for corporate interests.
But the core audience for Wizards of the Coast’s products is nerds. Nerds generally have a slightly-above-average knowledge of history, but in regards to the Pinkertons specifically nerds are more likely than most to be familiar because of their role as antagonists in the Red Dead Redemption video games.
When I have a little extra money I want to put to work for me I buy stocks in companies whose products I use and generally believe in. I’m a tabletop roleplaying game player so I have a handful of shares in Hasbro because despite the many valid complaints about the system I do think Dungeons & Dragons 5th Edition is a functional game that lends itself well to growing the community. My Hasbro stock is worth about half what it was a year ago, and the series of terrible business decisions the company has made in the past six months has more than one person I’ve seen online speculate that they must be intentionally tanking their stock. It’s just wildly bad judgment.
posted by Parasite Unseen at 9:54 AM on April 26, 2023 [10 favorites]
The cops are probably going to side with the Pinkertons regardless of legality. Cops moonlight for them, cops retire with their pension and work part time and others worked for pinkertons / private security before they became cops.
Don’t talk to private detectives, don’t talk to the police
posted by interogative mood at 9:56 AM on April 26, 2023 [14 favorites]
Don’t talk to private detectives, don’t talk to the police
posted by interogative mood at 9:56 AM on April 26, 2023 [14 favorites]
@CrystalDave - absolutely on Securitas - A doc popped up on one of my feeds about the 2006 UK Depot robbery that was Securitas. Felt bad for the workers and the manager, but Securitas can get bent.
posted by drewbage1847 at 10:07 AM on April 26, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by drewbage1847 at 10:07 AM on April 26, 2023 [1 favorite]
If Wizards ruins the Cultural Moment that D&D is having right now by being complete asshats
If? We're well beyond if. At this point, it's not so much a question of whether they're going to burn down their own community, but whether they'll ever see fit to stop throwing gas on the fire.
posted by ourobouros at 10:07 AM on April 26, 2023 [1 favorite]
If? We're well beyond if. At this point, it's not so much a question of whether they're going to burn down their own community, but whether they'll ever see fit to stop throwing gas on the fire.
posted by ourobouros at 10:07 AM on April 26, 2023 [1 favorite]
Since the Open Game License thing, I have several times talked myself out of picking up a pack of MtG cards when I see them at the store. This ... does not improve my estimation of them.
posted by gauche at 10:08 AM on April 26, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by gauche at 10:08 AM on April 26, 2023 [1 favorite]
I seriously didn't know "Pinkerton agents" were still around in 2023?
There was a fpp on them in 2019 about being private police for rich preppers scared of climate change.
When the ice caps have melted and humanity is huddled in a corner of land on newly tropical Antarctica, I suppose we'll still have rich nerds playing Magic: the fucking Gathering, while armed mercs wearing pain bracelets watch from the sidelines to make sure no one cheats.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 10:09 AM on April 26, 2023 [2 favorites]
There was a fpp on them in 2019 about being private police for rich preppers scared of climate change.
When the ice caps have melted and humanity is huddled in a corner of land on newly tropical Antarctica, I suppose we'll still have rich nerds playing Magic: the fucking Gathering, while armed mercs wearing pain bracelets watch from the sidelines to make sure no one cheats.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 10:09 AM on April 26, 2023 [2 favorites]
"he knew what he was doing and deserved it"
Hasbro knew what they were doing and deserve whatever happens as a result. Speaking as someone who, just this upcoming weekend, is planning to play in a D&D one-shot for the first time in years.
posted by Faint of Butt at 10:19 AM on April 26, 2023 [3 favorites]
Hasbro knew what they were doing and deserve whatever happens as a result. Speaking as someone who, just this upcoming weekend, is planning to play in a D&D one-shot for the first time in years.
posted by Faint of Butt at 10:19 AM on April 26, 2023 [3 favorites]
All he had to do was not break street date, I don't want to take the side of a corporation but this YouTuber knew he was doing something wrong for clout.
posted by kzin602 at 10:29 AM on April 26, 2023
posted by kzin602 at 10:29 AM on April 26, 2023
> wrong
Citation needed. "A corporation didn't want him to" is not a moral prerogative.
posted by duende at 10:35 AM on April 26, 2023 [29 favorites]
Citation needed. "A corporation didn't want him to" is not a moral prerogative.
posted by duende at 10:35 AM on April 26, 2023 [29 favorites]
Embargoes are how companies reward/ manage compliant ‘reviewers’ with future access. Breaking a product release embargo is always ethical, anything else is just serving marketing goals.
posted by zenon at 10:38 AM on April 26, 2023 [9 favorites]
posted by zenon at 10:38 AM on April 26, 2023 [9 favorites]
It's just pretty cardboard. Nobody actually got hurt by releasing things early. Not even wizards. Until they decided to shoot themselves in the foot.
posted by Zalzidrax at 10:38 AM on April 26, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by Zalzidrax at 10:38 AM on April 26, 2023 [5 favorites]
I don't want to take the side of a corporation but
You should consider deleting this phrase from your vocabulary.
posted by axiom at 10:40 AM on April 26, 2023 [19 favorites]
You should consider deleting this phrase from your vocabulary.
posted by axiom at 10:40 AM on April 26, 2023 [19 favorites]
When I saw the title I thought of another MTG; but seems like evil greedheads are involved either way.
posted by TedW at 10:40 AM on April 26, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by TedW at 10:40 AM on April 26, 2023 [2 favorites]
look, as long as we all abide by the rules imposed on us by the corporate entities then the Pinkertons never have to get involved
I don't know why this so hard for everyone
posted by elkevelvet at 10:41 AM on April 26, 2023 [14 favorites]
I don't know why this so hard for everyone
posted by elkevelvet at 10:41 AM on April 26, 2023 [14 favorites]
When a new MTG set is announced, WotC / Hasbro works with various streamers and YouTube content creators to 'spoil' upcoming cards. This gives those streamers some content to talk about and it also ensures that when the full set is released, no ody has a competitive advantage of seeing the full set weeks in advance.
When this guy uploaded his video, he said "I don't know if this has been spoiled" so he knew about the spoiler process and he knows he was going to take that opportunity away from other content creators. He knew he had the product early and instead of just not making his video he could have enjoyed it with some friends.
If you accidentally get shipped a copy of a video game or a movie long before the review copy embargo is lifted is it moral to break that embargo and upload a bunch of clips and take away from the community members that would normally get the boost?
He made the choice to do this, he could have sat on it, he could have reached out to WPN, but he broke street date for clout.
posted by kzin602 at 10:42 AM on April 26, 2023 [1 favorite]
When this guy uploaded his video, he said "I don't know if this has been spoiled" so he knew about the spoiler process and he knows he was going to take that opportunity away from other content creators. He knew he had the product early and instead of just not making his video he could have enjoyed it with some friends.
If you accidentally get shipped a copy of a video game or a movie long before the review copy embargo is lifted is it moral to break that embargo and upload a bunch of clips and take away from the community members that would normally get the boost?
He made the choice to do this, he could have sat on it, he could have reached out to WPN, but he broke street date for clout.
posted by kzin602 at 10:42 AM on April 26, 2023 [1 favorite]
Carrying water for a faceless corporation is something I'll never understand. For anyone who does think that this person is in the wrong, ask yourself, how would you feel if you bought something from Wal-Mart and it was accidentally released too early and some thugs showed up at your home threatening you and using scare tactics to influence you to make a decision you don't want to make.
Also, consider how often corporations are allowed to break laws and pay small penalties or just be let off the hook b/c they are too big to fail. Corporations don't give a FUCK about us outside of the dollars we wield and the labour they exploit.
posted by Fizz at 10:43 AM on April 26, 2023 [30 favorites]
Also, consider how often corporations are allowed to break laws and pay small penalties or just be let off the hook b/c they are too big to fail. Corporations don't give a FUCK about us outside of the dollars we wield and the labour they exploit.
posted by Fizz at 10:43 AM on April 26, 2023 [30 favorites]
From Linda Codega: Magic 'Raid' Wasn't the First Time Wizards of the Coast Hired Pinkertons
Sources, who were unwilling to share their names or specifics for fear of retribution by Wizards of the Coast, told Gizmodo that back in 2017, Pinkerton employees were sent out to investigate the theft of an uncut sheet of foil cards from the then-upcoming major expansion, Ixalan. The Ixalan foil sheet has become something of a legend in modern Magic spaces, and while the original response from Wizards of the Coast’s is currently unavailable on their site, an archived version exists.posted by HeroZero at 10:43 AM on April 26, 2023 [3 favorites]
The company was transparent about the illegal nature of the theft, and Scott Kelly (who was in 2017 the Vice President, Creative and Production Studios) stated in the post that in order to retrieve the stolen property, Wizards of the Coast worked “with a number of groups and individuals, including private investigators, investigators who specialize in supply chains, cyber security experts, and local law enforcement.”
If you accidentally get shipped a copy of a video game or a movie long before the review copy embargo is lifted is it moral to break that embargo and upload a bunch of clips and take away from the community members that would normally get the boost?
Oh damn did he sign an agreement with other youtube creators? No, that deal was made between them and Hasbro? Then he has no obligation. It's on Hasbro to make their fuckup right with the other parties.
posted by axiom at 10:45 AM on April 26, 2023 [40 favorites]
Oh damn did he sign an agreement with other youtube creators? No, that deal was made between them and Hasbro? Then he has no obligation. It's on Hasbro to make their fuckup right with the other parties.
posted by axiom at 10:45 AM on April 26, 2023 [40 favorites]
When this guy uploaded his video, he said "I don't know if this has been spoiled" so he knew about the spoiler process and he knows he was going to take that opportunity away from other content creators
He said he didn't know whether he was taking this opportunity away. Maybe he should have done more research, but maybe WOTC should have guarded their shit better, and maybe WOTC shouldn't have hired literal fucking Pinkertons to go to his house and threaten him.
posted by Etrigan at 10:46 AM on April 26, 2023 [13 favorites]
He said he didn't know whether he was taking this opportunity away. Maybe he should have done more research, but maybe WOTC should have guarded their shit better, and maybe WOTC shouldn't have hired literal fucking Pinkertons to go to his house and threaten him.
posted by Etrigan at 10:46 AM on April 26, 2023 [13 favorites]
"how would you feel if you bought something from Wal-Mart and it was accidentally released too early and some thugs showed up at your home threatening you and using scare tactics to influence you to make a decision you don't want to make."
He didn't accidentally buy it too early, a distributor shipped it early on accident, reframe this as a movie or video game release date and you got a copy of the next avengers movie or whatever months prior to it's release and instead of enjoying it privately you decide to spoil it on your YouTube channel.
posted by kzin602 at 10:47 AM on April 26, 2023 [1 favorite]
He didn't accidentally buy it too early, a distributor shipped it early on accident, reframe this as a movie or video game release date and you got a copy of the next avengers movie or whatever months prior to it's release and instead of enjoying it privately you decide to spoil it on your YouTube channel.
posted by kzin602 at 10:47 AM on April 26, 2023 [1 favorite]
Debating the legality doesn't really matter, Pinkertons/cops are going to intimidate and uphold the rights of a corporation/property-owner EVERY fucking time. And in that moment when someone is pressing on you and using fear and threats, its understandable why they may opt to just comply regardless of whether or not they legally have any rights in that situation.
posted by Fizz at 12:23 PM on April 26
Debating legality matters a lot to courts, and taking this to court is probably the only chance that Cannon has of getting meaningful recourse. I don't mean to sound dismissive about how scary it must have been, and I don't fault the guy for responding the way he did. But the Pinkertons aren't in his house anymore and these situations are exactly why litigation lawyers exist.
posted by ZaphodB at 10:48 AM on April 26, 2023
posted by Fizz at 12:23 PM on April 26
Debating legality matters a lot to courts, and taking this to court is probably the only chance that Cannon has of getting meaningful recourse. I don't mean to sound dismissive about how scary it must have been, and I don't fault the guy for responding the way he did. But the Pinkertons aren't in his house anymore and these situations are exactly why litigation lawyers exist.
posted by ZaphodB at 10:48 AM on April 26, 2023
I'm still having trouble seeing where the armed thugs are okay in this process.
posted by gc at 10:48 AM on April 26, 2023 [10 favorites]
posted by gc at 10:48 AM on April 26, 2023 [10 favorites]
"I don't know if this has been spoiled" could have been answered with a simple Google search and the kind of person that preorders a collector box is going to be invested enough to know the process.
Should Pinkertons have been sent? No. Should this guy have thought before uploading the video? Yes.
Street date breaks happen all the time, people have gotten product early before but nobody is dumb enough to upload a video of it.
Assholes all around.
posted by kzin602 at 10:52 AM on April 26, 2023 [1 favorite]
Should Pinkertons have been sent? No. Should this guy have thought before uploading the video? Yes.
Street date breaks happen all the time, people have gotten product early before but nobody is dumb enough to upload a video of it.
Assholes all around.
posted by kzin602 at 10:52 AM on April 26, 2023 [1 favorite]
the post did make me imagine that Weezer showed up
Honestly if Weezer showed up and started playing at me as a show of force I'd do almost anything to make them go away.
posted by loquacious at 10:53 AM on April 26, 2023 [8 favorites]
Honestly if Weezer showed up and started playing at me as a show of force I'd do almost anything to make them go away.
posted by loquacious at 10:53 AM on April 26, 2023 [8 favorites]
> If Wizards ruins the Cultural Moment that D&D is having right now by being complete asshats
If? We're well beyond if.
I disagree. WotC has been making terrible decisions for a while now, absolutely. But right now I can still take advantage of the growing and positive image of D&D to help recruit a group who otherwise might not be all that interested. And there's lots of good D&D media to enjoy (podcasts & cartoons & I enjoyed the movie).
For now, the only people who are hearing about and negatively reacting to WotC's asshattery are giant nerds like me who are paying attention. And we mostly tend to separate "D&D the game" from its current owners.
That could change. This BS could spill over into the broader culture, and D&D could develop a toxic reputation with a far more legitimate basis than the toxic reputation it had in the 80s. All the good D&D stuff could start to go away, and people could drift away because it seems icky. That's what I hope doesn't happen.
posted by gurple at 10:55 AM on April 26, 2023
If? We're well beyond if.
I disagree. WotC has been making terrible decisions for a while now, absolutely. But right now I can still take advantage of the growing and positive image of D&D to help recruit a group who otherwise might not be all that interested. And there's lots of good D&D media to enjoy (podcasts & cartoons & I enjoyed the movie).
For now, the only people who are hearing about and negatively reacting to WotC's asshattery are giant nerds like me who are paying attention. And we mostly tend to separate "D&D the game" from its current owners.
That could change. This BS could spill over into the broader culture, and D&D could develop a toxic reputation with a far more legitimate basis than the toxic reputation it had in the 80s. All the good D&D stuff could start to go away, and people could drift away because it seems icky. That's what I hope doesn't happen.
posted by gurple at 10:55 AM on April 26, 2023
Should Pinkertons have been sent? No. Should this guy have thought before uploading the video? Yes.
Street date breaks happen all the time, people have gotten product early before but nobody is dumb enough to upload a video of it.
Assholes all around.
I guess I just don't think that an individual who doesn't even seem to have broken any laws* telling people about what's in some packs of cards, even very important and special packs of cards, is remotely on par with sending a private militarized security force to someone's house to terrorize them.
*Legality is not the same as morality
posted by an octopus IRL at 10:59 AM on April 26, 2023 [37 favorites]
Street date breaks happen all the time, people have gotten product early before but nobody is dumb enough to upload a video of it.
Assholes all around.
I guess I just don't think that an individual who doesn't even seem to have broken any laws* telling people about what's in some packs of cards, even very important and special packs of cards, is remotely on par with sending a private militarized security force to someone's house to terrorize them.
*Legality is not the same as morality
posted by an octopus IRL at 10:59 AM on April 26, 2023 [37 favorites]
The idea that this YouTuber was in any sense obligated to look out for Hasbro's interests in any way whatso-fucking-ever is straight up demented. He didn't ask for the cards. He didn't steal them. He's not subject to any sort of contractual obligation to Hasbro that can oblige him to doing "a simple Google search" or anything fucking else. Anybody trying to "both sides" Hasbro sending actual goddamn Pinkertons to hassle this kid must really like the taste of boot.
posted by Ipsifendus at 11:04 AM on April 26, 2023 [56 favorites]
posted by Ipsifendus at 11:04 AM on April 26, 2023 [56 favorites]
When a new MTG set is announced, WotC / Hasbro works with various streamers and YouTube content creators to 'spoil' upcoming cards. This gives those streamers some content to talk about and it also ensures that when the full set is released, no ody has a competitive advantage of seeing the full set weeks in advance.
When this guy uploaded his video, he said "I don't know if this has been spoiled" so he knew about the spoiler process and he knows he was going to take that opportunity away from other content creators. He knew he had the product early and instead of just not making his video he could have enjoyed it with some friends.
None of that is precious, good, or worth preserving, let alone necessitates the drastic response WotC delivered. You're describing advertising. Boohoo that releasing the product information in one dump instead of teasing out ads over weeks. He did consumers a favour sparing them from so-called "spoiler season"
posted by GoblinHoney at 11:07 AM on April 26, 2023 [11 favorites]
When this guy uploaded his video, he said "I don't know if this has been spoiled" so he knew about the spoiler process and he knows he was going to take that opportunity away from other content creators. He knew he had the product early and instead of just not making his video he could have enjoyed it with some friends.
None of that is precious, good, or worth preserving, let alone necessitates the drastic response WotC delivered. You're describing advertising. Boohoo that releasing the product information in one dump instead of teasing out ads over weeks. He did consumers a favour sparing them from so-called "spoiler season"
posted by GoblinHoney at 11:07 AM on April 26, 2023 [11 favorites]
prior to it's release and instead of enjoying it privately you decide to spoil it on your YouTube channel.
This is a fine and good thing to do, you need to explain why that could possibly be a bad thing.
posted by GoblinHoney at 11:08 AM on April 26, 2023 [11 favorites]
This is a fine and good thing to do, you need to explain why that could possibly be a bad thing.
posted by GoblinHoney at 11:08 AM on April 26, 2023 [11 favorites]
He didn't accidentally buy it too early, a distributor shipped it early on accident, reframe this as a movie or video game release date and you got a copy of the next avengers movie or whatever months prior to it's release and instead of enjoying it privately you decide to spoil it on your YouTube channel.
Assuming "spoil it on your YouTube channel" means talking about it - go for it! If people don't want it spoilered they can avoid it. Some people might want to know what happens, might even want to know early. No problem at all!
Talking about something, sharing something before a press embargo only matters of you are embargoed press. If you have not signed a contract or agreement, you are not subject to any contract or agreement. This guy may have known what he was doing, but he was well within his rights to do it. He'd have been well within his rights to do it even if the "spoiler" meaningfully impacted the product, which it fucking doesn't.
posted by Dysk at 11:23 AM on April 26, 2023 [16 favorites]
Assuming "spoil it on your YouTube channel" means talking about it - go for it! If people don't want it spoilered they can avoid it. Some people might want to know what happens, might even want to know early. No problem at all!
Talking about something, sharing something before a press embargo only matters of you are embargoed press. If you have not signed a contract or agreement, you are not subject to any contract or agreement. This guy may have known what he was doing, but he was well within his rights to do it. He'd have been well within his rights to do it even if the "spoiler" meaningfully impacted the product, which it fucking doesn't.
posted by Dysk at 11:23 AM on April 26, 2023 [16 favorites]
Anyone else read MtG in the headline as Marjorie Taylor Greene at first?
posted by CheeseDigestsAll at 11:29 AM on April 26, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by CheeseDigestsAll at 11:29 AM on April 26, 2023 [5 favorites]
I feel bad for the shop that sold him the cards as well because they might find themselves in trouble with the distributor or the Magic people. New comic book day is Wednesday but my local shop will open their shipments and put them on the new comic display area on Tuesday. I usually just go in on the weekend but sometimes I'll drop in during the week and if it's on a Tuesday and I walk into the new comic area then whoever's at the store will remind me that I can't buy anything there yet.
posted by any portmanteau in a storm at 11:39 AM on April 26, 2023
posted by any portmanteau in a storm at 11:39 AM on April 26, 2023
Anyone else read MtG in the headline as Marjorie Taylor Greene at first?
I was about 1/3rd of the way through this thread thinking MtG stood for Mt Gox and the cards were GPU accelerators.
posted by slogger at 11:48 AM on April 26, 2023 [2 favorites]
I was about 1/3rd of the way through this thread thinking MtG stood for Mt Gox and the cards were GPU accelerators.
posted by slogger at 11:48 AM on April 26, 2023 [2 favorites]
I'm in the process of decluttering, and reading about this incident is enough to make me dump all 5E stuff right fucking now. And to think I was actually thinking about dumping a ton of money on the upcoming MtG LOTR set-- and I don't even PLAY MtG! I'm only going to hold onto my TSR-era stuff from my youth and my OSR retro-clone stuff, but man, fuck Hasbro, fuck WoTC, and especially fuck The Pinkertons.
posted by KingEdRa at 11:56 AM on April 26, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by KingEdRa at 11:56 AM on April 26, 2023 [2 favorites]
I know I shouldn't be, but I am amazed at WotC's utter tone-deafness in failing to consider how their actions would look in light of the recent OGL debacle. If there's anyone who deserves what they get, it's the company and any loss of trust or goodwill, because they seem to be actively trying to make it happen, rather than avoid it.
posted by Gelatin at 12:40 PM on April 26, 2023
posted by Gelatin at 12:40 PM on April 26, 2023
Street date breaks happen all the time, people have gotten product early before but nobody is dumb enough to upload a video of it.
That's because in most cases, the people who get product early a) are under legal contracts with teeth to not breach the embargo and b) have existing relationships with the vendor which would be severed if they breach. But without those things, there is no obligation on anyone to honor the street date. That's why they sent the thugs - because Hasbro/WotC knew the law wasn't on their side, so they had to resort to threats.
posted by NoxAeternum at 12:42 PM on April 26, 2023 [11 favorites]
That's because in most cases, the people who get product early a) are under legal contracts with teeth to not breach the embargo and b) have existing relationships with the vendor which would be severed if they breach. But without those things, there is no obligation on anyone to honor the street date. That's why they sent the thugs - because Hasbro/WotC knew the law wasn't on their side, so they had to resort to threats.
posted by NoxAeternum at 12:42 PM on April 26, 2023 [11 favorites]
Should this guy have thought before uploading the video? Yes.
Street date breaks happen all the time, people have gotten product early before but nobody is dumb enough to upload a video of it.
What you’re not explaining is why he should have the slightest interest in whether Hasbro’s marketing department approves of his actions, aside from their illegal and successful attempt to extort him into compliance via threats of barretry by their onsite representatives. If Hasbro fucks up and releases product early to someone who legally acquired it (as in this case) and has no ongoing business relationship with them, that’s entirely on Hasbro and whatever action he takes or does not take is entirely his decision. It would be nice for them if he didn’t release details, but he’s under no obligation whatsoever to be nice and the correct thing for Hasbro to do in this case is to review their security procedures and early release process to prevent this happening in the future. This time, they need to accept their mistake, learn from it, and move the fuck on. I would be singing a very different song if he acquired the cards illegally but there is no indication of that, and this isn’t (you say) the first time they’ve done this.
That aside, in the rare cases where there are no other external factors, ethically speaking the correct choice for an individual is to fuck over large corporations at nearly every lawfully possible opportunity if your privilege enables you to weather the consequences. Corporate entities in the United States use their power to violate our rights, increase financial inequity, and poison our environment. Harming most large corporations is in most cases serving the greater good of humanity and the morally correct thing to do.
What he did in releasing that video - regardless of whether it was disingenuous - was a slightly positive action, and what Hasbro did in reply was both obscene and expected. Fuck Hasbro, please stop trying to defend the indefensible.
posted by Ryvar at 12:52 PM on April 26, 2023 [23 favorites]
Street date breaks happen all the time, people have gotten product early before but nobody is dumb enough to upload a video of it.
What you’re not explaining is why he should have the slightest interest in whether Hasbro’s marketing department approves of his actions, aside from their illegal and successful attempt to extort him into compliance via threats of barretry by their onsite representatives. If Hasbro fucks up and releases product early to someone who legally acquired it (as in this case) and has no ongoing business relationship with them, that’s entirely on Hasbro and whatever action he takes or does not take is entirely his decision. It would be nice for them if he didn’t release details, but he’s under no obligation whatsoever to be nice and the correct thing for Hasbro to do in this case is to review their security procedures and early release process to prevent this happening in the future. This time, they need to accept their mistake, learn from it, and move the fuck on. I would be singing a very different song if he acquired the cards illegally but there is no indication of that, and this isn’t (you say) the first time they’ve done this.
That aside, in the rare cases where there are no other external factors, ethically speaking the correct choice for an individual is to fuck over large corporations at nearly every lawfully possible opportunity if your privilege enables you to weather the consequences. Corporate entities in the United States use their power to violate our rights, increase financial inequity, and poison our environment. Harming most large corporations is in most cases serving the greater good of humanity and the morally correct thing to do.
What he did in releasing that video - regardless of whether it was disingenuous - was a slightly positive action, and what Hasbro did in reply was both obscene and expected. Fuck Hasbro, please stop trying to defend the indefensible.
posted by Ryvar at 12:52 PM on April 26, 2023 [23 favorites]
If there's anyone who deserves what they get, it's the company and any loss of trust or goodwill, because they seem to be actively trying to make it happen, rather than avoid it.
I don't think they care; their customers are MTG/D&D addicts and they have cornered the sole supply of both drugs.
posted by sid at 1:06 PM on April 26, 2023
I don't think they care; their customers are MTG/D&D addicts and they have cornered the sole supply of both drugs.
posted by sid at 1:06 PM on April 26, 2023
I think comparing spoiling a movie (where people actually want to be surprised by any plot twists) to spoiling the effects of a playing card (where people want to know what cards are out there and what they do so they won't be surprised when an opponent plays them) is a particularly unhelpful analogy.
posted by I paid money to offer this... insight? at 1:20 PM on April 26, 2023 [7 favorites]
posted by I paid money to offer this... insight? at 1:20 PM on April 26, 2023 [7 favorites]
Note that MTGox was the Magic The Gathering Online eXchange, before it got it to crypto. I have some Magic background and the right-wing politician will always be the lesser MTG to me
Back in the day I worked in a shop selling MTG and Pokémon cards, and people went crazy when new sets came out.
This buyer has no legal responsibility to WOTC, and I don’t think any moral responsibility to MTG fandom as a whole. F the pinkertons
posted by CostcoCultist at 1:21 PM on April 26, 2023 [1 favorite]
Back in the day I worked in a shop selling MTG and Pokémon cards, and people went crazy when new sets came out.
This buyer has no legal responsibility to WOTC, and I don’t think any moral responsibility to MTG fandom as a whole. F the pinkertons
posted by CostcoCultist at 1:21 PM on April 26, 2023 [1 favorite]
A number of comments have already tried to explain to the "but he shouldn't have done that, it's not allowed!" objectors why their objections to Cannon's behavior should not be enforceable by threats from private security and the likelihood of law enforcement imposing a "solution" by force but let's try separating it a bit from areas where posters here are more likely to have an interest and/or emotional and possibly financial stake.
Imagine, if you will, that a company is doing something you don't particularly care about, but they do. Let's say that General Mills has decided, in conjunction with the release of the movie "Renfield" to issue special-edition Count Chocula cereal and is planning a promotion based on that. Some grocery store somewhere gets their shipment early and is confused about the promotional details and puts it on the shelf, where a cereal blogger finds it and concludes that he can steal a march on the other cereal bloggers and increase the hits to his blog.
If you were another cereal blogger, or a fan of cereal blogs, you might find this unfair. If you were General Mills you might well be annoyed that your careful promotional plans had gone awry.
But in no way is it reasonable to send goons to the cereal blogger's home to demand the return of the limited-edition Count Chocula, or to coerce him with threats that General Mills will destroy him and maybe the sheriff's department will have to come and ransack his house if he doesn't give them what they want. You never know what will happen with that kind of an escalation. His dog could get shot. Or maybe he lives in a state that still has cannabis prohibition and they find his kid's weed stash. Or maybe, as the goons from the private security have threatened, they seize everything edible in the house to teach the guy a lesson about non-compliance.
That would be ridiculous, right? For a multi-billion dollar corporation to resort to hired goons and the threat of possible law-enforcement involvement to get back some cereal that they felt the guy had been allowed to buy too early? To threaten to destroy his life for violating a marketing agreement to which he was never a party?
So what makes it different when it's trading cards?
posted by Nerd of the North at 1:38 PM on April 26, 2023 [12 favorites]
Imagine, if you will, that a company is doing something you don't particularly care about, but they do. Let's say that General Mills has decided, in conjunction with the release of the movie "Renfield" to issue special-edition Count Chocula cereal and is planning a promotion based on that. Some grocery store somewhere gets their shipment early and is confused about the promotional details and puts it on the shelf, where a cereal blogger finds it and concludes that he can steal a march on the other cereal bloggers and increase the hits to his blog.
If you were another cereal blogger, or a fan of cereal blogs, you might find this unfair. If you were General Mills you might well be annoyed that your careful promotional plans had gone awry.
But in no way is it reasonable to send goons to the cereal blogger's home to demand the return of the limited-edition Count Chocula, or to coerce him with threats that General Mills will destroy him and maybe the sheriff's department will have to come and ransack his house if he doesn't give them what they want. You never know what will happen with that kind of an escalation. His dog could get shot. Or maybe he lives in a state that still has cannabis prohibition and they find his kid's weed stash. Or maybe, as the goons from the private security have threatened, they seize everything edible in the house to teach the guy a lesson about non-compliance.
That would be ridiculous, right? For a multi-billion dollar corporation to resort to hired goons and the threat of possible law-enforcement involvement to get back some cereal that they felt the guy had been allowed to buy too early? To threaten to destroy his life for violating a marketing agreement to which he was never a party?
So what makes it different when it's trading cards?
posted by Nerd of the North at 1:38 PM on April 26, 2023 [12 favorites]
It says a lot about the pinkertons that most people don’t seem to know they’re real, or still around. There were a few comments here, but elsewhere, half the comments seem to be people shocked they still exist, or shocked they weren’t just fictional bad guys in Red Dead Redemption (or, much rarer, “wait, weren’t they from Deadwood?”). One of their most recent lurches into the light was to try to sue Rockstar over their portrayal in RDR2, if I recall. They’ve done such an excellent job of memory holing themselves, that it might be the only commendable thing they’ve ever done.
But how bad do you have to be to willfully choose this level of being forgotten? As mentioned above, there is clearly strong pride within the organization, pride in the things they’ve done, casting themselves as heroes of… fuck, I can’t even oblige them that far to try and come up with something. How evil do you have to be in your mission and deeds that you’re happiest when people think you’re a made up bogeyman from a video game? This is way, way beyond arewethebaddies.gif, they know, and they’re proud of it.
Meanwhile, how fucking awful do you have to be to not only know of them, but to employ them? Especially, as mentioned above, to employ them more than once? Like, hounded from polite society would be a start, I’d think, but we’ll always have water carriers and boot lickers to defend corporations from accepting their own fuckups.
posted by Ghidorah at 2:33 PM on April 26, 2023 [6 favorites]
But how bad do you have to be to willfully choose this level of being forgotten? As mentioned above, there is clearly strong pride within the organization, pride in the things they’ve done, casting themselves as heroes of… fuck, I can’t even oblige them that far to try and come up with something. How evil do you have to be in your mission and deeds that you’re happiest when people think you’re a made up bogeyman from a video game? This is way, way beyond arewethebaddies.gif, they know, and they’re proud of it.
Meanwhile, how fucking awful do you have to be to not only know of them, but to employ them? Especially, as mentioned above, to employ them more than once? Like, hounded from polite society would be a start, I’d think, but we’ll always have water carriers and boot lickers to defend corporations from accepting their own fuckups.
posted by Ghidorah at 2:33 PM on April 26, 2023 [6 favorites]
Meanwhile, how fucking awful do you have to be to not only know of them, but to employ them?
As I said earlier, the answer is simple - you were one.
posted by NoxAeternum at 2:42 PM on April 26, 2023 [3 favorites]
As I said earlier, the answer is simple - you were one.
posted by NoxAeternum at 2:42 PM on April 26, 2023 [3 favorites]
Incidentally you can find some really interesting Pinkerton merch on ebay, like this strange statue of a smug Pinkerton with the earth on a pedestal or this early '90s statue of a Pinkerton in traditional dress at a computer with a giant CRT monitor.
posted by smelendez at 2:47 PM on April 26, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by smelendez at 2:47 PM on April 26, 2023 [1 favorite]
If you accidentally get shipped a copy of a video game or a movie long before the review copy embargo is lifted is it moral to break that embargo and upload a bunch of clips and take away from the community members that would normally get the boost?
Product announcements leak. Political announcements leak. Supreme Court decisions leak. Some of them would have been release-time-embargoed or exclusive stories. It happens. One of the Harry Potter books leaked back when they were huge midnight bestsellers.
I don't think anyone has an obligation not to break news because someone else would have more profitably reported it under different circumstances.
posted by smelendez at 2:54 PM on April 26, 2023 [8 favorites]
Product announcements leak. Political announcements leak. Supreme Court decisions leak. Some of them would have been release-time-embargoed or exclusive stories. It happens. One of the Harry Potter books leaked back when they were huge midnight bestsellers.
I don't think anyone has an obligation not to break news because someone else would have more profitably reported it under different circumstances.
posted by smelendez at 2:54 PM on April 26, 2023 [8 favorites]
shocked they weren’t just fictional bad guys in Red Dead Redemption (or, much rarer, “wait, weren’t they from Deadwood?”
Sometimes I feel like we didn’t call enough attention to it but in Bioshock Infinite you played an ex-Pinkerton who midway through the game is confronted with his past participation in wholesale massacre of civilians, and “you’re a fairly fucking awful person, actually” is a point repeatedly emphasized on a number of fronts. I had to do a ton of research into them as part of the story team and while it’s all “no resemblance to actual persons /specific historical events” obfuscated (specific “Pinkerton” group label aside), there’s no shortage of inspiration in their history.
I had my hands full with voiceover implementation for the last year and wasn’t involved with the script finalization, but I kinda regret this wasn’t a little more front and center in the story. Shining a light on Capital’s jackboots matters and is worth taking the time to do right.
posted by Ryvar at 3:03 PM on April 26, 2023 [15 favorites]
Sometimes I feel like we didn’t call enough attention to it but in Bioshock Infinite you played an ex-Pinkerton who midway through the game is confronted with his past participation in wholesale massacre of civilians, and “you’re a fairly fucking awful person, actually” is a point repeatedly emphasized on a number of fronts. I had to do a ton of research into them as part of the story team and while it’s all “no resemblance to actual persons /specific historical events” obfuscated (specific “Pinkerton” group label aside), there’s no shortage of inspiration in their history.
I had my hands full with voiceover implementation for the last year and wasn’t involved with the script finalization, but I kinda regret this wasn’t a little more front and center in the story. Shining a light on Capital’s jackboots matters and is worth taking the time to do right.
posted by Ryvar at 3:03 PM on April 26, 2023 [15 favorites]
From Linda Codega: Magic 'Raid' Wasn't the First Time Wizards of the Coast Hired Pinkertons
> Meanwhile, how fucking awful do you have to be to not only know of them, but to employ them?
As I said earlier, the answer is simple - you were one.
The Gizmodo article linked earlier has been updated a couple of times today, and I don't know if this was in the original version, but...
> Meanwhile, how fucking awful do you have to be to not only know of them, but to employ them?
As I said earlier, the answer is simple - you were one.
The Gizmodo article linked earlier has been updated a couple of times today, and I don't know if this was in the original version, but...
There are other connections between Wizards of the Coast and the Pinkerton agency. Robin M. Klimek, who has been the Director Security Risk Management at Hasbro, Inc. for 12 years, was previously the Director of Supply Chain Security Practice at Pinkerton Consulting & Investigations. The current Manager of Global Investigations is also a former Pinkerton agent.posted by hanov3r at 3:14 PM on April 26, 2023 [2 favorites]
No love for the 2014-2015 direct to syndication show "The Pinkertons"?
Allen Pinkerton and son solving cases in the Wild West with *gasp* the first female private investigator. Wikipedia says crimes were based on real Pinkerton cases and was officially licensed by the agency. Talk about copaganda.
posted by Misty_Knightmare at 3:45 PM on April 26, 2023 [2 favorites]
Allen Pinkerton and son solving cases in the Wild West with *gasp* the first female private investigator. Wikipedia says crimes were based on real Pinkerton cases and was officially licensed by the agency. Talk about copaganda.
posted by Misty_Knightmare at 3:45 PM on April 26, 2023 [2 favorites]
I feel that the best thing to come from the Pinkerton organization was Dashiell Hammett's career there in the 1910s and 1920s, which led to the Continental Op series of hard-boiled pulp detective short stories.
posted by JDC8 at 4:19 PM on April 26, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by JDC8 at 4:19 PM on April 26, 2023 [3 favorites]
no legal responsibility...any moral responsibility
I'd like to posit that legality and morality, insofar as the terms are used in this thread, are irrelevant.
What is the governing ethics in our current culture? It's how much money is at stake and what power can be brought to bear to secure it. It's that simple, the rest is enlightenment era navelgazing.
posted by Reasonably Everything Happens at 4:21 PM on April 26, 2023
I'd like to posit that legality and morality, insofar as the terms are used in this thread, are irrelevant.
What is the governing ethics in our current culture? It's how much money is at stake and what power can be brought to bear to secure it. It's that simple, the rest is enlightenment era navelgazing.
posted by Reasonably Everything Happens at 4:21 PM on April 26, 2023
Was anyone else my age (50+) originally exposed to Pinkertons in grade school as if they were heroes, the origin of the beloved private eyes of TV and also spies for the North during the Civil War? They show up in a Holmes story about union busting too (The Valley of Fear I believe. Not recommended.)
On a different note, leading to a legal question:
I once asked a company lawyer about those ubiquitous e-mail signatures saying "This information is confidential and if you get it from mistake you must destroy it." I figured that was a joke and I couldn't be bound by something I wasn't party to. (Our company didn't use them, so he had no vested interest in defending them.)
I was somewhat offended to get the answer "well, maybe, maybe not." He gave examples where it would be a really bad idea to take action on something like that, even if it were something I not only received legally, but didn't even ask for in any way. IIUC the basic argument is that trade secrets get legal protection, and if a company is doing a reasonable job trying to protect its secrets they may not be yours to publish, even if you got them.
So I'm curious if these really were really legally outrageous claims? This lawyer would presumably have put it in a gray zone at a minimum (though in my experience company lawyers put almost everything in a gray zone, but still.)
posted by mark k at 6:07 PM on April 26, 2023
On a different note, leading to a legal question:
I once asked a company lawyer about those ubiquitous e-mail signatures saying "This information is confidential and if you get it from mistake you must destroy it." I figured that was a joke and I couldn't be bound by something I wasn't party to. (Our company didn't use them, so he had no vested interest in defending them.)
I was somewhat offended to get the answer "well, maybe, maybe not." He gave examples where it would be a really bad idea to take action on something like that, even if it were something I not only received legally, but didn't even ask for in any way. IIUC the basic argument is that trade secrets get legal protection, and if a company is doing a reasonable job trying to protect its secrets they may not be yours to publish, even if you got them.
So I'm curious if these really were really legally outrageous claims? This lawyer would presumably have put it in a gray zone at a minimum (though in my experience company lawyers put almost everything in a gray zone, but still.)
posted by mark k at 6:07 PM on April 26, 2023
Allen Pinkerton is the reason Abraham Lincoln lived long enough to get to Washington and get sworn in as POTUS, so they aren't all bad.
posted by Back At It Again At Krispy Kreme at 11:30 PM on April 26, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by Back At It Again At Krispy Kreme at 11:30 PM on April 26, 2023 [1 favorite]
I don't think pointing out that what he did was wrong is taking the side of corporations. Demeaning someones hobby as "pretty cartons" is borderline bullying. Imagine someone mistakenly got a hold of the Sopranos finale and posted it online, you'd all be losing your collective minds. So fuck wotc, but fuck this guy too. He did know what he was doing, and he did it for monetization purposes.
posted by valdesm at 3:42 AM on April 27, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by valdesm at 3:42 AM on April 27, 2023 [2 favorites]
Imagine someone mistakenly got a hold of the Sopranos finale and posted it online
Not really equivalent, since that would be redistributing the episode. The guy didn't print up a while bunch of sets of the new cards and hand them out, after all.
Even someone spoilering the ending of a TV show is a note meaningful impact on the product than someone revealing the cards before embargo. People want to know what the cards are in a way that spoilers aren't wanted.
And even then, someone getting an episode of a series early, and posting their review of it, spoilering the ending? Not a problem. Certainly not a "send in the heavies" scale of problem.
posted by Dysk at 4:02 AM on April 27, 2023 [3 favorites]
Not really equivalent, since that would be redistributing the episode. The guy didn't print up a while bunch of sets of the new cards and hand them out, after all.
Even someone spoilering the ending of a TV show is a note meaningful impact on the product than someone revealing the cards before embargo. People want to know what the cards are in a way that spoilers aren't wanted.
And even then, someone getting an episode of a series early, and posting their review of it, spoilering the ending? Not a problem. Certainly not a "send in the heavies" scale of problem.
posted by Dysk at 4:02 AM on April 27, 2023 [3 favorites]
So I'm curious if these really were really legally outrageous claims?
Copyright violations get resolved in court, so if there is any question at all, posting copyrighted material of giant corporations is always legally risky in the "is there a chance I'll get sued?" sense. He might have a solid fair use defense, but he might have to go to court to win.
Also, possessing stolen goods is illegal, even if you think you purchased them legitimately. My guess is that the Pinkertons probably implied the cards were stolen, because why else would the sheriff be interested?
posted by surlyben at 4:56 AM on April 27, 2023
Copyright violations get resolved in court, so if there is any question at all, posting copyrighted material of giant corporations is always legally risky in the "is there a chance I'll get sued?" sense. He might have a solid fair use defense, but he might have to go to court to win.
Also, possessing stolen goods is illegal, even if you think you purchased them legitimately. My guess is that the Pinkertons probably implied the cards were stolen, because why else would the sheriff be interested?
posted by surlyben at 4:56 AM on April 27, 2023
Allen Pinkerton is the reason Abraham Lincoln lived long enough to get to Washington and get sworn in as POTUS, so they aren't all bad.
The fact that you had to go back nearly 200 years just to #NotAllPinkertons this thread should have been a sign.
posted by Glegrinof the Pig-Man at 5:11 AM on April 27, 2023 [7 favorites]
The fact that you had to go back nearly 200 years just to #NotAllPinkertons this thread should have been a sign.
posted by Glegrinof the Pig-Man at 5:11 AM on April 27, 2023 [7 favorites]
I seriously didn't know "Pinkerton agents" were still around in 2023?
I have ancestors on my Mom's side who were part of the Molly Maguires. I heard enough about Pinkertons from my grandmother that their name makes the hairs on the back of my neck stand on end, even in the Year of Our Lord 2023.
posted by jonp72 at 6:37 AM on April 27, 2023 [2 favorites]
I have ancestors on my Mom's side who were part of the Molly Maguires. I heard enough about Pinkertons from my grandmother that their name makes the hairs on the back of my neck stand on end, even in the Year of Our Lord 2023.
posted by jonp72 at 6:37 AM on April 27, 2023 [2 favorites]
Imagine someone mistakenly got a hold of the Sopranos finale and posted it online, you'd all be losing your collective minds.
This is utter and complete nonsense. First off, a MTG card is not a narrative that can be "spoiled", nor an element of any such narrative. Even if it were, and we were talking about the early release of a film, the ethical harm would be minimal; people concerned about spoilers could easily avoid this kid's YouTube channel.
Second of all, it matters not one bit that he knew what he was doing, nor that he did it for monetization purposes. He acquired the material through no fault of his own, and has neither a legal or ethical obligation to refrain from capitalizing on Hasbro's error here. He is entirely without blame in this as a matter of law, or as matter of decent behavior.
I think it's worth scrutinizing the impulse to play silly-ass "on-the-other-hand" rhetorical games in a matter this blatantly lopsided. On one side, you have a guy who did nothing wrong, full stop. On the other side, a corporation with a *recent* history of comically muddled ethical thinking hiring literal armed agents from one of the very worst organizations in the history of the USA to come and threaten that private citizen and make him correct the inconvenience the corporation brought on themselves through incompetence that he had no part in.
Telling everyone who finds that offensive on the face of it that somehow we're hypocrites for our imagined reactions to a completely different situation that you pulled out of thin air? Deeply deeply weird.
posted by Ipsifendus at 7:06 AM on April 27, 2023 [11 favorites]
This is utter and complete nonsense. First off, a MTG card is not a narrative that can be "spoiled", nor an element of any such narrative. Even if it were, and we were talking about the early release of a film, the ethical harm would be minimal; people concerned about spoilers could easily avoid this kid's YouTube channel.
Second of all, it matters not one bit that he knew what he was doing, nor that he did it for monetization purposes. He acquired the material through no fault of his own, and has neither a legal or ethical obligation to refrain from capitalizing on Hasbro's error here. He is entirely without blame in this as a matter of law, or as matter of decent behavior.
I think it's worth scrutinizing the impulse to play silly-ass "on-the-other-hand" rhetorical games in a matter this blatantly lopsided. On one side, you have a guy who did nothing wrong, full stop. On the other side, a corporation with a *recent* history of comically muddled ethical thinking hiring literal armed agents from one of the very worst organizations in the history of the USA to come and threaten that private citizen and make him correct the inconvenience the corporation brought on themselves through incompetence that he had no part in.
Telling everyone who finds that offensive on the face of it that somehow we're hypocrites for our imagined reactions to a completely different situation that you pulled out of thin air? Deeply deeply weird.
posted by Ipsifendus at 7:06 AM on April 27, 2023 [11 favorites]
I don't think pointing out that what he did was wrong is taking the side of corporations.
He didn't accept stolen property - it's established that he was sent the box by mistake by a legitimate vendor. He has no contractual or legal ties to Hasbro/WotC, so he's not obligated to honor any embargo. And as Dysk points out, the MtG fandom is wanting information on new sets, so there was an audience for his content.
So, given all that, how is what he did wrong? The only way you can get there is by arguing that even without any ties to the company, he is somehow obliged to honor their position, even at detriment to himself.
And that's the reason people are saying that you're carrying water for Hasbro/WotC.
posted by NoxAeternum at 7:08 AM on April 27, 2023 [8 favorites]
He didn't accept stolen property - it's established that he was sent the box by mistake by a legitimate vendor. He has no contractual or legal ties to Hasbro/WotC, so he's not obligated to honor any embargo. And as Dysk points out, the MtG fandom is wanting information on new sets, so there was an audience for his content.
So, given all that, how is what he did wrong? The only way you can get there is by arguing that even without any ties to the company, he is somehow obliged to honor their position, even at detriment to himself.
And that's the reason people are saying that you're carrying water for Hasbro/WotC.
posted by NoxAeternum at 7:08 AM on April 27, 2023 [8 favorites]
. He has no contractual or legal ties to Hasbro/WotC, so he's not obligated to honor any embargo. And as Dysk points out, the MtG fandom is wanting information on new sets, so there was an audience for his content. So, given all that, how is what he did wrong?
The legal answer may be in the question I asked, which is that the content of pre-release cards may be trade secrets. Trade secret get legal protection. That company lawyer I asked about it said, as one example, that if I accidentally ended up with a copy of GM's marketing plan, it would be an exceptionally bad idea to disseminate it even though I'd never agreed to keep it secret.
It seems (and this is from my own googling a bit this morning, not even second hand lawyer talk) that information can be protected as a trade secret when the it (1) has commercial value by virtue of it being secret and (2) the company owning it has made reasonable efforts to keep it secret. It's protected against "misappropriation" which includes theft but also possibly someone who "improperly discloses or uses a trade secret without consent or with having reason to know that knowledge of the trade secret was acquired through a mistake or accident."
I'd be curious if lawyers can chime in, but it seems likely this is one of those "it depends" situations with a real legal possibility the cards were protected. The best case against protection would presumably be an argument that knowing the card content and getting the art disclosed doesn't really have commercial value, but obviously Hasbro's marketing people wanted to control that precisely because they thought it would help them profit. (Or maybe there're a jurisdictions where misappropriation doesn't clearly include accidental receipt--my quote on that seems to be California law.)
I'm never a fan of companies throwing around weight like this. The web of (possible) protections is what companies use to suppress criticisms. I'm sure if Tesla was ever caught using shoddy brake materials they'd argue that the newspaper disclosing those memos violated trade secrets. In fact, typing it out, I'm sure other car makers have done basically that.
posted by mark k at 9:46 AM on April 27, 2023
The legal answer may be in the question I asked, which is that the content of pre-release cards may be trade secrets. Trade secret get legal protection. That company lawyer I asked about it said, as one example, that if I accidentally ended up with a copy of GM's marketing plan, it would be an exceptionally bad idea to disseminate it even though I'd never agreed to keep it secret.
It seems (and this is from my own googling a bit this morning, not even second hand lawyer talk) that information can be protected as a trade secret when the it (1) has commercial value by virtue of it being secret and (2) the company owning it has made reasonable efforts to keep it secret. It's protected against "misappropriation" which includes theft but also possibly someone who "improperly discloses or uses a trade secret without consent or with having reason to know that knowledge of the trade secret was acquired through a mistake or accident."
I'd be curious if lawyers can chime in, but it seems likely this is one of those "it depends" situations with a real legal possibility the cards were protected. The best case against protection would presumably be an argument that knowing the card content and getting the art disclosed doesn't really have commercial value, but obviously Hasbro's marketing people wanted to control that precisely because they thought it would help them profit. (Or maybe there're a jurisdictions where misappropriation doesn't clearly include accidental receipt--my quote on that seems to be California law.)
I'm never a fan of companies throwing around weight like this. The web of (possible) protections is what companies use to suppress criticisms. I'm sure if Tesla was ever caught using shoddy brake materials they'd argue that the newspaper disclosing those memos violated trade secrets. In fact, typing it out, I'm sure other car makers have done basically that.
posted by mark k at 9:46 AM on April 27, 2023
Yes, trade secrets, that's clearly what the pinkerton guys were talking about when they threatened to call the sheriff.
posted by ryanrs at 10:10 AM on April 27, 2023 [6 favorites]
posted by ryanrs at 10:10 AM on April 27, 2023 [6 favorites]
Pinkertons are evil thugs, Hasbro is a shitty US company. I hope of the suit soaks the heavies who confronted him. None of those facts were asked about in the question I responded to.
But also, yes? The Pinkertons were obviously just pulling up every legal argument in the book to intimidate the guy, so I assume stuff about possessing proprietary IP came up too.
posted by mark k at 10:31 AM on April 27, 2023 [1 favorite]
But also, yes? The Pinkertons were obviously just pulling up every legal argument in the book to intimidate the guy, so I assume stuff about possessing proprietary IP came up too.
posted by mark k at 10:31 AM on April 27, 2023 [1 favorite]
That company lawyer I asked about it said, as one example, that if I accidentally ended up with a copy of GM's marketing plan, it would be an exceptionally bad idea to disseminate it even though I'd never agreed to keep it secret.
Depends on what you mean by disseminate. Selling it to a competitor would be no bueno (and I'm reminded of the Coke Insider who tried to sell The Formula to Pepsi only to have Medium Blue rat them out), but case law is pretty well defined that a reporter could out that plan in their reporting and be well protected by the First Amendment. There's also the fact that the card info had already been spoiled, so trying to argue trade secrets would have ran into that problem.
posted by NoxAeternum at 10:56 AM on April 27, 2023 [3 favorites]
Depends on what you mean by disseminate. Selling it to a competitor would be no bueno (and I'm reminded of the Coke Insider who tried to sell The Formula to Pepsi only to have Medium Blue rat them out), but case law is pretty well defined that a reporter could out that plan in their reporting and be well protected by the First Amendment. There's also the fact that the card info had already been spoiled, so trying to argue trade secrets would have ran into that problem.
posted by NoxAeternum at 10:56 AM on April 27, 2023 [3 favorites]
There's also the fact that the card info had already been spoiled,... .
I missed this. Was it mentioned in thread?
Gizmodo says "Cannon ... showed them on his YouTube channel, resulting in the reveal of around 75% of the limited release set."
posted by Press Butt.on to Check at 11:20 AM on April 27, 2023
I missed this. Was it mentioned in thread?
Gizmodo says "Cannon ... showed them on his YouTube channel, resulting in the reveal of around 75% of the limited release set."
posted by Press Butt.on to Check at 11:20 AM on April 27, 2023
but case law is pretty well defined that a reporter could out that plan in their reporting and be well protected by the First Amendment
I'd been thinking about what traditional reporters can do (a lot), but explicitly googling for trade secrets and reporting dug up this piece on publishing trade secrets by Beckman Klein Center on Internet & Society.
It addressed a lot of the questions I had (though mostly to continue to say "it depends").
posted by mark k at 11:30 AM on April 27, 2023 [1 favorite]
I'd been thinking about what traditional reporters can do (a lot), but explicitly googling for trade secrets and reporting dug up this piece on publishing trade secrets by Beckman Klein Center on Internet & Society.
It addressed a lot of the questions I had (though mostly to continue to say "it depends").
posted by mark k at 11:30 AM on April 27, 2023 [1 favorite]
These aren't trade secrets. These are cards intended for sale to general public, a few days before release date.
posted by surlyben at 11:31 AM on April 27, 2023 [7 favorites]
posted by surlyben at 11:31 AM on April 27, 2023 [7 favorites]
But the content of an unreleased product could definitely be a trade secret, if that content has not already been disclosed elsewhere.
posted by mark k at 11:36 AM on April 27, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by mark k at 11:36 AM on April 27, 2023 [1 favorite]
Generally speaking if you, a company, is planning on printing your trade secret out on cards, and distributing them to the public, that cannot reasonably be considered the same thing as a trade secret, which you should be trying to keep secret.
posted by axiom at 2:29 PM on April 27, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by axiom at 2:29 PM on April 27, 2023 [3 favorites]
Allen Pinkerton is the reason Abraham Lincoln lived long enough to get to Washington and get sworn in as POTUS, so they aren't all bad.also, abraham lincoln was a republican, so democrats are the real racists
posted by Flunkie at 3:27 PM on April 27, 2023
Also, possessing stolen goods is illegal, even if you think you purchased them legitimately.
This is false.
posted by Pyrogenesis at 10:45 PM on April 27, 2023 [1 favorite]
This is false.
posted by Pyrogenesis at 10:45 PM on April 27, 2023 [1 favorite]
people concerned about spoilers could easily avoid this kid's YouTube channel.
you just solved the decades long spoiler problem, congrats.
it matters not one bit that he knew what he was doing, nor that he did it for monetization purposes. He acquired the material through no fault of his own, and has neither a legal or ethical obligation to refrain from capitalizing on Hasbro's error here.
Just because you don't sign an NDA doesn't mean you're not liable for copyright or trade secrets infringement, even if you acquired the material accidentally. Monetization is very relevant here.
I think it's worth scrutinizing the impulse to play silly-ass "on-the-other-hand" rhetorical games in a matter this blatantly lopsided. On one side, you have a guy who did nothing wrong, full stop. On the other side, a corporation with a *recent* history of comically muddled ethical thinking hiring literal armed agents from one of the very worst organizations in the history of the USA to come and threaten that private citizen and make him correct the inconvenience the corporation brought on themselves through incompetence that he had no part in.
I agree the matter is lopsided, and wotc's response has been absurdly unproportional. There's no "on-the-other-hand" in my comment.
Telling everyone who finds that offensive on the face of it that somehow we're hypocrites for our imagined reactions to a completely different situation that you pulled out of thin air? Deeply deeply weird.
Nobody's telling anybody to not find offence in wotc's actions, nor am I calling anyone a hypocrite. I just said pointing out that it was wrong to spoil the set doesn't mean you think wotc isn't a shitty corporation.
posted by valdesm at 11:30 PM on April 27, 2023 [1 favorite]
you just solved the decades long spoiler problem, congrats.
it matters not one bit that he knew what he was doing, nor that he did it for monetization purposes. He acquired the material through no fault of his own, and has neither a legal or ethical obligation to refrain from capitalizing on Hasbro's error here.
Just because you don't sign an NDA doesn't mean you're not liable for copyright or trade secrets infringement, even if you acquired the material accidentally. Monetization is very relevant here.
I think it's worth scrutinizing the impulse to play silly-ass "on-the-other-hand" rhetorical games in a matter this blatantly lopsided. On one side, you have a guy who did nothing wrong, full stop. On the other side, a corporation with a *recent* history of comically muddled ethical thinking hiring literal armed agents from one of the very worst organizations in the history of the USA to come and threaten that private citizen and make him correct the inconvenience the corporation brought on themselves through incompetence that he had no part in.
I agree the matter is lopsided, and wotc's response has been absurdly unproportional. There's no "on-the-other-hand" in my comment.
Telling everyone who finds that offensive on the face of it that somehow we're hypocrites for our imagined reactions to a completely different situation that you pulled out of thin air? Deeply deeply weird.
Nobody's telling anybody to not find offence in wotc's actions, nor am I calling anyone a hypocrite. I just said pointing out that it was wrong to spoil the set doesn't mean you think wotc isn't a shitty corporation.
posted by valdesm at 11:30 PM on April 27, 2023 [1 favorite]
Just because you don't sign an NDA doesn't mean you're not liable for copyright or trade secrets infringement, even if you acquired the material accidentally.
Did he make our distribute copies of the cards? Because that's what copyright prevents you from doing. And something you are intentionally distributing to a network of retailers for release to the public is not, cannot be a trade secret.
Like, if this trade secret thing applied in the way you all think, Apple would have sued websites leaking new products many times, instead of only ever taking action against their own employees who are involved.
posted by Dysk at 1:08 AM on April 28, 2023 [3 favorites]
Did he make our distribute copies of the cards? Because that's what copyright prevents you from doing. And something you are intentionally distributing to a network of retailers for release to the public is not, cannot be a trade secret.
Like, if this trade secret thing applied in the way you all think, Apple would have sued websites leaking new products many times, instead of only ever taking action against their own employees who are involved.
posted by Dysk at 1:08 AM on April 28, 2023 [3 favorites]
I won't argue this further because it's not the point I'm trying to make; but card images are copyrighted and have been broadcasted in a manner that can't be described as fair use. The criteria for ip to be a trade secrets is availability, not distribution.
posted by valdesm at 3:23 AM on April 28, 2023
posted by valdesm at 3:23 AM on April 28, 2023
The wotc fan content guidelines grant everyone the right to use thier copyrighted material, subject to certain restrictions. The relevant restriction in this case is that if they don't like your content, you have to take it down. But making and posting the videos in the first place is likely totally fine.
posted by surlyben at 7:07 AM on April 28, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by surlyben at 7:07 AM on April 28, 2023 [2 favorites]
There are Terms & Conditions in addition to the guidelines, including:
You may not post, modify, distribute, or reproduce in any way any copyrighted material, trademarks, or other proprietary information belonging to Wizards or others without obtaining the prior written consent of the owner of such proprietary rights.posted by Press Butt.on to Check at 8:02 AM on April 28, 2023
card info had already been spoiled
I fail to understand how the details of a card, that you will have to put down during play in a game with other people can be "spoiled"...
Is it because potentially, people can research counters to that card, ahead of time? So what - there have to be thousands and thousands of MtG cards "in-play" with myriad combinations of hands, all documented strategy books, etc - if I picked this up as a hobby today, then everything released before today would be "spoiled" for me, no?
posted by rozcakj at 8:22 AM on April 28, 2023
I fail to understand how the details of a card, that you will have to put down during play in a game with other people can be "spoiled"...
Is it because potentially, people can research counters to that card, ahead of time? So what - there have to be thousands and thousands of MtG cards "in-play" with myriad combinations of hands, all documented strategy books, etc - if I picked this up as a hobby today, then everything released before today would be "spoiled" for me, no?
posted by rozcakj at 8:22 AM on April 28, 2023
Card releases are huge events for stores, in large part because stuff is new to everybody.
posted by Press Butt.on to Check at 8:41 AM on April 28, 2023
posted by Press Butt.on to Check at 8:41 AM on April 28, 2023
Some good discussion on this topic on the latest Dies to Removal episode.
posted by the_dreamwriter at 8:59 AM on April 28, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by the_dreamwriter at 8:59 AM on April 28, 2023 [1 favorite]
Card releases are huge events for stores, in large part because stuff is new to everybody.
And people go to the stores to see the cards and then leave without buying them?
posted by Etrigan at 9:22 AM on April 28, 2023 [1 favorite]
And people go to the stores to see the cards and then leave without buying them?
posted by Etrigan at 9:22 AM on April 28, 2023 [1 favorite]
Okay, now I know that a specific card exists - and its details... It is a physical object, so I will decide not to buy a deck because I know that card is/may or may not be in the deck?
Still not spoiled. Knowing a card and its details would make the average person want the card MORE, not less... Now I can plan a deck to destroy my opponents more precisely.
It's not like someone telling you the outcome of a story... Because, at that point, you may not waste your time viewing the whole thing. But, knowing that a card exists? Is that going to stop someone from playing the game?
Regardless - the buyer and vlogger had no contract with Hasbro, WotC - and any thugs should have been sent to the distributor/store instead.
Sheesh - it sounds like PepsiBlue in here, some people stanning for Hasbro and Pinkertons.
posted by rozcakj at 10:17 AM on April 28, 2023 [4 favorites]
Still not spoiled. Knowing a card and its details would make the average person want the card MORE, not less... Now I can plan a deck to destroy my opponents more precisely.
It's not like someone telling you the outcome of a story... Because, at that point, you may not waste your time viewing the whole thing. But, knowing that a card exists? Is that going to stop someone from playing the game?
Regardless - the buyer and vlogger had no contract with Hasbro, WotC - and any thugs should have been sent to the distributor/store instead.
Sheesh - it sounds like PepsiBlue in here, some people stanning for Hasbro and Pinkertons.
posted by rozcakj at 10:17 AM on April 28, 2023 [4 favorites]
I can't immediately find the story back but this has happened before, where a bookstore put up a book before its announced date of sale, and the buyer had to give it back. Apparently copyright law is pretty tilted towards publishers when it considers whether a work has been published or not. If it's unpublished you apparently have no rights to any of it, legally, to the point of having to return it.
If I remember correctly this played in Canada and may have been a Harry Potter book but it was a while ago.
Still, threatening to force someone to account for all possessions in their house is clearly over the top, both morally and legally.
posted by LanTao at 8:37 AM on May 1, 2023
If I remember correctly this played in Canada and may have been a Harry Potter book but it was a while ago.
Still, threatening to force someone to account for all possessions in their house is clearly over the top, both morally and legally.
posted by LanTao at 8:37 AM on May 1, 2023
Mod note: Several comments removed. Please stick to the Guidelines and "be considerate and respectful" of other members.
posted by Brandon Blatcher (staff) at 6:51 AM on May 5, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by Brandon Blatcher (staff) at 6:51 AM on May 5, 2023 [1 favorite]
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