EVs are the future, but guess who doesn't like them
May 30, 2023 9:02 AM Subscribe
Did you know that auto dealers are one of the five most common professions among the top 0.1 percent of American earners? That car dealers, along with gas station owners and building contractors make up the majority of the country’s 140,000 millionaires? They're also reliably conservative (they donate to Republicans at a rate of 6-to-1), and despite their recent convention theme, "NADA is all in on EVs,” there is unease in the ranks of the National Automobile Dealers Association.
For one thing, when you're selling EVs, it seems you don't want to mention climate change. And when you've used your political power to prevent cars from being sold by manufacturers or that prevent manufacturers from servicing their own cars, the business model that Tesla uses (direct sales) is a huge threat. As one attendee put it, “The last two years, cars have basically sold themselves,” he said with a sigh. “There’s a fucking reckoning coming.”
For one thing, when you're selling EVs, it seems you don't want to mention climate change. And when you've used your political power to prevent cars from being sold by manufacturers or that prevent manufacturers from servicing their own cars, the business model that Tesla uses (direct sales) is a huge threat. As one attendee put it, “The last two years, cars have basically sold themselves,” he said with a sigh. “There’s a fucking reckoning coming.”
And no one deserves that reckoning more than auto dealers/sales people.
Yes. We bought a Polestar 2 last year. The showroom (we're lucky enough to live near one) was nice and low-key and much the same could be said about the test drive. No pressure, no car dealership bullshit. If more people could have those same experiences when shopping for a new car, I'm all for it.
posted by May Kasahara at 9:29 AM on May 30, 2023 [2 favorites]
Yes. We bought a Polestar 2 last year. The showroom (we're lucky enough to live near one) was nice and low-key and much the same could be said about the test drive. No pressure, no car dealership bullshit. If more people could have those same experiences when shopping for a new car, I'm all for it.
posted by May Kasahara at 9:29 AM on May 30, 2023 [2 favorites]
That car dealers, along with gas station owners and building contractors make up the majority of the country’s 140,000 millionaires?
Noting that the way "millionaire" is defined here might be different from what people expect - here it's "people who have over a million dollars in annual income" rather than a million in net worth, of which there are more than 5 million in the US.
posted by LionIndex at 9:29 AM on May 30, 2023 [39 favorites]
Noting that the way "millionaire" is defined here might be different from what people expect - here it's "people who have over a million dollars in annual income" rather than a million in net worth, of which there are more than 5 million in the US.
posted by LionIndex at 9:29 AM on May 30, 2023 [39 favorites]
Well damn. I knew that car salespeople are wealthy and influential on the local level, but I had no idea that they were so over-represented among millionaires, or that they had such a stranglehold on lobbyists. It makes a sick kind of sense, how virulent racist and all-around terrible person Henry Ford begat this whole network of slimy jerks that entrenched themselves in everything, but still depressing.
A good companion piece to this one is American Gentry by Patrick Wyman, which outlines how someone like a car dealership magnate can gain and hold on to wealth and power. It seems important to note that so many of these local elites are conservative, and that they can so easily pull the “aw shucks, I’m just a small business owner” routine if anyone tries to regulate their empires.
posted by ActionPopulated at 9:33 AM on May 30, 2023 [31 favorites]
A good companion piece to this one is American Gentry by Patrick Wyman, which outlines how someone like a car dealership magnate can gain and hold on to wealth and power. It seems important to note that so many of these local elites are conservative, and that they can so easily pull the “aw shucks, I’m just a small business owner” routine if anyone tries to regulate their empires.
posted by ActionPopulated at 9:33 AM on May 30, 2023 [31 favorites]
And no one deserves that reckoning more than auto dealers/sales people.
Speaking as a former sales person who's father sold cars for some 30 years with an Uncle that owned a dealership for a little bit longer than that.
Fuck the owners, fuck them good and hard. My uncle is a Fox news watching conservative asshole.
But managers and salespeople are, like most of us that aren't rich, are the same spectrum as everyone else. My father was one of the most honest and genuine sales people and later manager you'll ever meet. It was a regular occurance growing up that I'd see my dad run into some people he knew and greet each other like friends. I'd ask who they were and he'd say, "Just some folks I sold I car too a while back."
Likewise I was an honest salesperson too, most of the top earning salespeople are that way (though I was far from a top earner or I'd still be doing it) because being genuinly interested in people is how you build the trust it takes for someone to want to buy a car from you.
Customers, however, would lie straight to my face all day, every day. They always think they're being clever too, having read some guide on how to get a good deal. I had a customer tell me they didn't have a trade in while the title to his car was sticking out of his back pocket. But the guide said to claim there isn't a trade until after you've negotiated the price of the car.
Every salesperson you might talk to has read all of those guides and they've sold more cars this year than you'll buy in your lifetime, you're going to out-fox them. At best they'll play along because it makes you feel like you're getting a better deal.
Being a car salesperson is a shitty job and the negative stereotypes people have about them makes it worse. They just want to sell a fucking car so they can pay the fucking rent.
posted by VTX at 9:34 AM on May 30, 2023 [38 favorites]
Speaking as a former sales person who's father sold cars for some 30 years with an Uncle that owned a dealership for a little bit longer than that.
Fuck the owners, fuck them good and hard. My uncle is a Fox news watching conservative asshole.
But managers and salespeople are, like most of us that aren't rich, are the same spectrum as everyone else. My father was one of the most honest and genuine sales people and later manager you'll ever meet. It was a regular occurance growing up that I'd see my dad run into some people he knew and greet each other like friends. I'd ask who they were and he'd say, "Just some folks I sold I car too a while back."
Likewise I was an honest salesperson too, most of the top earning salespeople are that way (though I was far from a top earner or I'd still be doing it) because being genuinly interested in people is how you build the trust it takes for someone to want to buy a car from you.
Customers, however, would lie straight to my face all day, every day. They always think they're being clever too, having read some guide on how to get a good deal. I had a customer tell me they didn't have a trade in while the title to his car was sticking out of his back pocket. But the guide said to claim there isn't a trade until after you've negotiated the price of the car.
Every salesperson you might talk to has read all of those guides and they've sold more cars this year than you'll buy in your lifetime, you're going to out-fox them. At best they'll play along because it makes you feel like you're getting a better deal.
Being a car salesperson is a shitty job and the negative stereotypes people have about them makes it worse. They just want to sell a fucking car so they can pay the fucking rent.
posted by VTX at 9:34 AM on May 30, 2023 [38 favorites]
Yeah, it's very much worth emphasizing that this is talking about dealership owners, not salespeople. While some salespeople definitely live up to the negative stereotypes, most of them are not extremely wealthy and certainly aren't bringing home $1 million+ in annual income.
posted by asnider at 9:40 AM on May 30, 2023 [16 favorites]
posted by asnider at 9:40 AM on May 30, 2023 [16 favorites]
Around 1991, I worked in a retail business with a woman whose previous job had been selling cellphones. She got paid on commission. Young folk may not realize that back then, cellphones were hideously expensive, costing maybe US$3000 in 1991 dollars, or about US$7000 in 2023 dollars (they were also the size of lunchboxes—the handset was separate from the transceiver/battery, connected by a cord, unless you had a Motorola Dynatac, which was the size of a brick). But as we all know, cellular technology advanced very quickly, and that business model was no longer viable.
She had made a pretty good living selling cellphones. The shop where we worked together wasn't minimum wage, but it was a big step down. Change can be tough.
posted by adamrice at 9:43 AM on May 30, 2023 [3 favorites]
She had made a pretty good living selling cellphones. The shop where we worked together wasn't minimum wage, but it was a big step down. Change can be tough.
posted by adamrice at 9:43 AM on May 30, 2023 [3 favorites]
This whole article reads like the script for some, dunno, Wim Wenders or maybe even Wes Anderson movie.
posted by flamewise at 9:56 AM on May 30, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by flamewise at 9:56 AM on May 30, 2023 [1 favorite]
There’s a fucking reckoning coming
Tesla Model Y Was The World's Best-Selling Car In Q1 2023
In Norway, the Electric Vehicle Future Has Already Arrived: "About 80 percent of new cars sold in Norway are battery-powered. As a result, the air is cleaner, the streets are quieter and the grid hasn’t collapsed. But problems with unreliable chargers persist."
For China’s Auto Market, Electric Isn’t the Future. It’s the Present: More electric cars will be sold in the country this year than in the rest of the world combined, as its domestic market accelerates ahead of the global competition.
posted by gwint at 9:59 AM on May 30, 2023 [8 favorites]
Tesla Model Y Was The World's Best-Selling Car In Q1 2023
In Norway, the Electric Vehicle Future Has Already Arrived: "About 80 percent of new cars sold in Norway are battery-powered. As a result, the air is cleaner, the streets are quieter and the grid hasn’t collapsed. But problems with unreliable chargers persist."
For China’s Auto Market, Electric Isn’t the Future. It’s the Present: More electric cars will be sold in the country this year than in the rest of the world combined, as its domestic market accelerates ahead of the global competition.
posted by gwint at 9:59 AM on May 30, 2023 [8 favorites]
I'm all for direct sales surplanting the current dealer system. It's not a new idea, Saturn (part of GM) was doing it in the 90s. But a new type of car changes things.
What doesn't change is the need for service. EVs make this worse; you can't just take one to your average shadetree mechanic / corner service center. Dealerships are being replaced by car service centers as the point of monopoly. And there aren't enough of them. I almost bought a Polestar 2 this year until I realized I'd have to go 150 miles to get the car worked on; their service network is very sparse right now.
So maybe that's the new gross model for dealerships; captive service centers. The inventives for this are terrible, an obvious invitation to make cars less reliable.
posted by Nelson at 10:14 AM on May 30, 2023 [4 favorites]
What doesn't change is the need for service. EVs make this worse; you can't just take one to your average shadetree mechanic / corner service center. Dealerships are being replaced by car service centers as the point of monopoly. And there aren't enough of them. I almost bought a Polestar 2 this year until I realized I'd have to go 150 miles to get the car worked on; their service network is very sparse right now.
So maybe that's the new gross model for dealerships; captive service centers. The inventives for this are terrible, an obvious invitation to make cars less reliable.
posted by Nelson at 10:14 AM on May 30, 2023 [4 favorites]
That's why Right to Repair is so important.
Even EV manufacturers that are willing to break the dealership system and do direct sales would love to lock customers into a captive service arrangement that they own and control.
posted by RonButNotStupid at 10:32 AM on May 30, 2023 [32 favorites]
Even EV manufacturers that are willing to break the dealership system and do direct sales would love to lock customers into a captive service arrangement that they own and control.
posted by RonButNotStupid at 10:32 AM on May 30, 2023 [32 favorites]
EV service classes and certifications are already spinning up at your local community college. Shade tree mechanics are a hardy bunch; it’ll take more than this to dislodge them.
posted by q*ben at 10:38 AM on May 30, 2023 [18 favorites]
posted by q*ben at 10:38 AM on May 30, 2023 [18 favorites]
Being a car salesperson is a shitty job and the negative stereotypes people have about them makes it worse. They just want to sell a fucking car so they can pay the fucking rent.
I think basically every sales job where remuneration is typically tied so heavily to commission is going to get a bad rap. That setup is just structurally working to create dishonesty and pushiness.
posted by Dysk at 10:45 AM on May 30, 2023 [19 favorites]
I think basically every sales job where remuneration is typically tied so heavily to commission is going to get a bad rap. That setup is just structurally working to create dishonesty and pushiness.
posted by Dysk at 10:45 AM on May 30, 2023 [19 favorites]
I think basically every sales job where remuneration is typically tied so heavily to commission is going to get a bad rap. That setup is just structurally working to create dishonesty and pushiness.
I think that with car sales it is compounded by a few things:
1. A car is probably the largest or second-largest (after a house) purchase that an average person makes.
2. A car is almost uniquely vulnerable to being suddenly destroyed in a collision or suddenly ceasing to work due to defect or neglect.
3. The knock-on effects of this vulnerability range from life-alteringly catastrophic to very distressing, due to the car-centric design of much of the U.S.
4. The dealership purchase process seems, to the outsider, to be deliberately opaque, such that it requires a lot of preparation and fortitude to come away from a deal with confidence that one has not been taken advantage of.
posted by gauche at 11:02 AM on May 30, 2023 [22 favorites]
I think that with car sales it is compounded by a few things:
1. A car is probably the largest or second-largest (after a house) purchase that an average person makes.
2. A car is almost uniquely vulnerable to being suddenly destroyed in a collision or suddenly ceasing to work due to defect or neglect.
3. The knock-on effects of this vulnerability range from life-alteringly catastrophic to very distressing, due to the car-centric design of much of the U.S.
4. The dealership purchase process seems, to the outsider, to be deliberately opaque, such that it requires a lot of preparation and fortitude to come away from a deal with confidence that one has not been taken advantage of.
posted by gauche at 11:02 AM on May 30, 2023 [22 favorites]
I think a lot of that also applies to estate agents, who have a similar reputation.
posted by Dysk at 11:10 AM on May 30, 2023 [6 favorites]
posted by Dysk at 11:10 AM on May 30, 2023 [6 favorites]
NADA is a fitting acronym.
posted by fairmettle at 11:13 AM on May 30, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by fairmettle at 11:13 AM on May 30, 2023 [4 favorites]
I almost bought a Polestar 2 this year until I realized I'd have to go 150 miles to get the car worked on; their service network is very sparse right now.
Consider yourself lucky. Look at what happened to this Rivian owner.
I bought a Volvo BEV and service availability was one of my top 5 factors, well above range and charging network.
The other big factor was that my local Volvo dealer wasn't adding insane unnecessary packages above sticker price like others were (cough cough Hyundai). I almost went in on an IONIQ5 until I saw the only available one in my area stacked with an extra $8,000 in paint protection and other wacky add-ons.
I've recently witnessed a lot of BEV and even ICE customers that refuse to go back to certain manufacturers ever again because the makers allowed this to happen. I think Farley at Ford knows the earth is scorched and that's why he was angling at a direct sales network.
posted by JoeZydeco at 11:16 AM on May 30, 2023 [6 favorites]
Consider yourself lucky. Look at what happened to this Rivian owner.
I bought a Volvo BEV and service availability was one of my top 5 factors, well above range and charging network.
The other big factor was that my local Volvo dealer wasn't adding insane unnecessary packages above sticker price like others were (cough cough Hyundai). I almost went in on an IONIQ5 until I saw the only available one in my area stacked with an extra $8,000 in paint protection and other wacky add-ons.
I've recently witnessed a lot of BEV and even ICE customers that refuse to go back to certain manufacturers ever again because the makers allowed this to happen. I think Farley at Ford knows the earth is scorched and that's why he was angling at a direct sales network.
posted by JoeZydeco at 11:16 AM on May 30, 2023 [6 favorites]
I had good experience leasing a Nissan Leaf, but the Nissan dealer had a designated “EV Guy” when my Galilee needed more space and we went for the Chrysler Pacifica Plug-in Hybrid. We had a terrible time with the Chrysler-dodge Jeep dealers. I would have loved to order direct likes Tesla. I hate to support Elon, but at this point I’d still probably order a Tesla if they made a vehicle that fit my needs rather than deal with dealers.
posted by CostcoCultist at 11:19 AM on May 30, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by CostcoCultist at 11:19 AM on May 30, 2023 [2 favorites]
I think a lot of that also applies to estate agents, who have a similar reputation.
It's starting to happen in that industry too: Realtors are leaving the housing market in droves
posted by meowzilla at 11:21 AM on May 30, 2023 [2 favorites]
It's starting to happen in that industry too: Realtors are leaving the housing market in droves
posted by meowzilla at 11:21 AM on May 30, 2023 [2 favorites]
The stranglehold of car culture predates electric cars, as does the destruction it has wrought.
Car culture creates suburban sprawl, destroys physical and mental health, fragments communities, directly kills people including many children and elders, and destroys the planet. One may be able to replace tailpipe gas emissions with coal emissions and dams - or if we mine enough cobalt and lithium then even with solar panels - but the other destructive effects of cars remain.
There will always be a need for cars in rural areas. But perhaps we need to consider that our dense cities need to move off cars and instead invest heavily in trains, buses, bikes, sidewalks, pedestrian and wheelchair access.
posted by splitpeasoup at 11:23 AM on May 30, 2023 [15 favorites]
Car culture creates suburban sprawl, destroys physical and mental health, fragments communities, directly kills people including many children and elders, and destroys the planet. One may be able to replace tailpipe gas emissions with coal emissions and dams - or if we mine enough cobalt and lithium then even with solar panels - but the other destructive effects of cars remain.
There will always be a need for cars in rural areas. But perhaps we need to consider that our dense cities need to move off cars and instead invest heavily in trains, buses, bikes, sidewalks, pedestrian and wheelchair access.
posted by splitpeasoup at 11:23 AM on May 30, 2023 [15 favorites]
4. The dealership purchase process seems, to the outsider, to be deliberately opaque, such that it requires a lot of preparation and fortitude to come away from a deal with confidence that one has not been taken advantage of.
5. The person that sells you the car takes no risk or responsibility if anything goes wrong post-sale.
posted by The_Vegetables at 11:35 AM on May 30, 2023 [6 favorites]
5. The person that sells you the car takes no risk or responsibility if anything goes wrong post-sale.
posted by The_Vegetables at 11:35 AM on May 30, 2023 [6 favorites]
It's starting to happen in that industry too: Realtors are leaving the housing market in droves
...Or it might be the +150% increase in borrowing for mortgages that has put many markets into a relative standstill.
posted by Reasonably Everything Happens at 11:41 AM on May 30, 2023 [1 favorite]
...Or it might be the +150% increase in borrowing for mortgages that has put many markets into a relative standstill.
posted by Reasonably Everything Happens at 11:41 AM on May 30, 2023 [1 favorite]
VTX, its not personal. I just fucking hate negotiating. It's a mass produced item, list a price, give us the info, please and thank you.
Now I think the need for flexible pricing boils down to the fact the dealership has to buy inventory and make sure to get the cars out so there are incentives to 'price to market' at a very individual level. But all that opacity means people don't trust and don't like car salesmen, or should I say most of them, your dad seems to have been doing fine.
posted by WaterAndPixels at 11:48 AM on May 30, 2023 [9 favorites]
Now I think the need for flexible pricing boils down to the fact the dealership has to buy inventory and make sure to get the cars out so there are incentives to 'price to market' at a very individual level. But all that opacity means people don't trust and don't like car salesmen, or should I say most of them, your dad seems to have been doing fine.
posted by WaterAndPixels at 11:48 AM on May 30, 2023 [9 favorites]
My car buying mantra is to search out the least expensive, safest and most reliable vehicle to buy and own. When that becomes an electric vehicle, I will purchase one. And in that vein:
Scratched EV battery? Your insurer may have to junk the whole car...
posted by jim in austin at 11:56 AM on May 30, 2023 [1 favorite]
Scratched EV battery? Your insurer may have to junk the whole car...
posted by jim in austin at 11:56 AM on May 30, 2023 [1 favorite]
The opacity is there because dealerships don't actually sell cars, they sell financing. What you end up driving away in is incidental to the loan that the dealership ends up writing.
What really needs to happen is regulations that would get dealerships out of the financing game. There's a reason why the best car buying advice is to get a loan from your local credit union.
But you might as well get rid of AM radio. Asking car dealerships to actually focus on selling vehicles instead of duping people into very shitty financing would destroy entire swaths of the conservative gentry classes. It will never happen.
posted by RonButNotStupid at 12:05 PM on May 30, 2023 [20 favorites]
What really needs to happen is regulations that would get dealerships out of the financing game. There's a reason why the best car buying advice is to get a loan from your local credit union.
But you might as well get rid of AM radio. Asking car dealerships to actually focus on selling vehicles instead of duping people into very shitty financing would destroy entire swaths of the conservative gentry classes. It will never happen.
posted by RonButNotStupid at 12:05 PM on May 30, 2023 [20 favorites]
I lived in the US for 2 years back in the '00s. This whole narrative reminds me of 2 things:
1) Shopping for a car with a literal wad of bills in my pocket, finding a car I could pay for then and there and drive off in it, but the salesman being super pushy on how I should pay 50% extra for 'financing', because something about my 'credit rating'. I ended up not buying the car.
2) The incessant , loud, obviously dishonest pickup-truck dealership commercials on TV that were, emotionally, a big part of my deciding I didn't want to raise a kid in that culture and moving back home to Chile.
posted by signal at 12:07 PM on May 30, 2023 [16 favorites]
1) Shopping for a car with a literal wad of bills in my pocket, finding a car I could pay for then and there and drive off in it, but the salesman being super pushy on how I should pay 50% extra for 'financing', because something about my 'credit rating'. I ended up not buying the car.
2) The incessant , loud, obviously dishonest pickup-truck dealership commercials on TV that were, emotionally, a big part of my deciding I didn't want to raise a kid in that culture and moving back home to Chile.
posted by signal at 12:07 PM on May 30, 2023 [16 favorites]
EVs are cheaper to maintain than pollutionmobiles. Consumer Reports published a study in 2020 and their most recent issue confirms it's still true. I've owned EVs since 2013: tires and wipers are the only work I've ever had to get done.
posted by Press Butt.on to Check at 12:10 PM on May 30, 2023 [11 favorites]
posted by Press Butt.on to Check at 12:10 PM on May 30, 2023 [11 favorites]
EVs are cheaper to maintain than pollutionmobiles.
Half of dealers' gross profits come from parts and service. Between maintenance and financing, well over 90% of the money a dealer makes from the median customer comes in after the car leaves the lot.
posted by Etrigan at 12:17 PM on May 30, 2023 [9 favorites]
Half of dealers' gross profits come from parts and service. Between maintenance and financing, well over 90% of the money a dealer makes from the median customer comes in after the car leaves the lot.
posted by Etrigan at 12:17 PM on May 30, 2023 [9 favorites]
I imagine that even for things like PHEV, the maintenance is dramatically lower. Especially if you're all electric for the work week (charging at work) no matter what you home charge situation is.
Unless there's a "it needs to be running the motor X times a week to avoid buildup/seizing" issue.
posted by Slackermagee at 12:21 PM on May 30, 2023 [1 favorite]
Unless there's a "it needs to be running the motor X times a week to avoid buildup/seizing" issue.
posted by Slackermagee at 12:21 PM on May 30, 2023 [1 favorite]
Scratched EV battery? Your insurer may have to junk the whole car...
Tesla has been getting a lot of attention again because they're running around and crowing about how these old fuddy-duddy manufacturers are using outdated assembly methods and not giving any thought to doing things more efficiently. Because, you know, Toyota has been coasting for 75 years.
But things like structural batteries? Meaning: the battery holds the entire car together? That just seems nuts. And that stupid method of making all the different pieces of the sheet metal match perfectly in color? Bah. Tesla owners don't care about that at all.
posted by JoeZydeco at 12:22 PM on May 30, 2023 [1 favorite]
Tesla has been getting a lot of attention again because they're running around and crowing about how these old fuddy-duddy manufacturers are using outdated assembly methods and not giving any thought to doing things more efficiently. Because, you know, Toyota has been coasting for 75 years.
But things like structural batteries? Meaning: the battery holds the entire car together? That just seems nuts. And that stupid method of making all the different pieces of the sheet metal match perfectly in color? Bah. Tesla owners don't care about that at all.
posted by JoeZydeco at 12:22 PM on May 30, 2023 [1 favorite]
5. The person that sells you the car takes no risk or responsibility if anything goes wrong post-sale.
6. Most of the times I've bought a car, the last thing that happens before getting the keys is the Meeting With The Finance Guy, probably the sleaziest, upsale-iest part of the whole thing.
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 12:28 PM on May 30, 2023 [10 favorites]
6. Most of the times I've bought a car, the last thing that happens before getting the keys is the Meeting With The Finance Guy, probably the sleaziest, upsale-iest part of the whole thing.
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 12:28 PM on May 30, 2023 [10 favorites]
An interesting side note is that ebikes and PEVs are facing similar issues with available service centers and repair, especially if you have a DTC (direct to consumer) or drop shipped ebike, or a DIY conversion.
Many bike shops are starting to refuse to work on any ebike they don't sell or stock for a number of reasons, but at the top of that list is liability insurance.
There are a whole list of other reasons, too, like DTC ebikes using non-standard components or having zero support, manuals or repair tools for the ebike components whether it's troubleshooting controllers or analyzing batteries and the massive amounts of non-standardized diversity in the ebike world.
Most bike shops aren't set up to work on computers or battery packs at all. I know some most exist out there somewhere but I've never seen one.
A whole lot of these DTC ebikes cut corners in every way they can and they're mostly selling BSOs (bike shaped objects) with bottom of the barrel components and frames, but also cutting costs on key components like the battery itself and any inherent safety features or factors like starting with better cells, better cases or battery management systems.
So while the batteries are sometimes a risk to the shop itself due to battery fires, it's a huge risk to their liability because of the really crappy components used on these BSO DTC ebikes that are prone to failure, so a lot of independent shops aren't comfortable with the risk of working on these ebikes if the components are so bad they could be blamed for those failures if someone (whether the rider or bystander) gets injured due to something like a brake failure.
And a lot of these DTC ebike owners and customers are really brand new to the world of cycling in general and balking when they realize that even an entry level to mid range set of replacement components or full group set (drive train, derailleurs, brakes, shifters and brake levers) can cost as much as half the price of a cheap $1,000 DTC ebike.
And just generally not realizing or understanding that the going price of a decent, modern analog bike generally starts at like $1000 USD for an aluminum commuter/hybrid with decent components and features and so they get sticker shock and think that all the bike shops are trying to rip them off because they have misinformed expectations about what bike parts actually cost because they just bought a whole damn ebike for about $1000, so how could parts for it cost $300-500 to do a full repair or upgrade, or why can't they just upgrade one part that works with their incompatible BSO components?
This is exacerbated by the issues that people that are brand new to bicycles don't understand that they need regular maintenance and parts replacement just like a car, but even worse and more frequently because bikes are less like a work truck and a lot more delicate watch or clock that's engineered to the bleeding edge of being light enough and strong enough for the job.
And I'm not sure what the solution is, but we're generating a fuckton of waste in shitty bicycle frames and parts and e-waste in non-standardized batteries and components that are effectively disposable.
I'm just smart enough that I could make and repair my own battery packs, but I also am smart enough to know I would need a bench full of gear to do it safely, including spot welders for building packs, battery analyzers and graders for sorting batteries into matched sets and more.
But all that being said? Hell yes EVs and PEVs are way easier to maintain than ICE vehicles.
Thankfully I've had ZERO problems with my DIY Bafang kit on a good analog host bike. I've ridden the absolute heck out of that thing in a bit over 3 years and I'm approaching 5000 miles. The battery is still going strong. If anything goes wrong with the motor core or transmission I know I can find parts to repair it. I can find replacement motor controllers and computers and all of the parts.
The only problems I've had with my DIY ebike have been normal bike problems and wear and tear. At local electricity prices it costs just a few pennies to charge. The total cost of ownership per mile is now down to something so small it's rounding error compared to an ICE vehicle.
posted by loquacious at 12:33 PM on May 30, 2023 [13 favorites]
Many bike shops are starting to refuse to work on any ebike they don't sell or stock for a number of reasons, but at the top of that list is liability insurance.
There are a whole list of other reasons, too, like DTC ebikes using non-standard components or having zero support, manuals or repair tools for the ebike components whether it's troubleshooting controllers or analyzing batteries and the massive amounts of non-standardized diversity in the ebike world.
Most bike shops aren't set up to work on computers or battery packs at all. I know some most exist out there somewhere but I've never seen one.
A whole lot of these DTC ebikes cut corners in every way they can and they're mostly selling BSOs (bike shaped objects) with bottom of the barrel components and frames, but also cutting costs on key components like the battery itself and any inherent safety features or factors like starting with better cells, better cases or battery management systems.
So while the batteries are sometimes a risk to the shop itself due to battery fires, it's a huge risk to their liability because of the really crappy components used on these BSO DTC ebikes that are prone to failure, so a lot of independent shops aren't comfortable with the risk of working on these ebikes if the components are so bad they could be blamed for those failures if someone (whether the rider or bystander) gets injured due to something like a brake failure.
And a lot of these DTC ebike owners and customers are really brand new to the world of cycling in general and balking when they realize that even an entry level to mid range set of replacement components or full group set (drive train, derailleurs, brakes, shifters and brake levers) can cost as much as half the price of a cheap $1,000 DTC ebike.
And just generally not realizing or understanding that the going price of a decent, modern analog bike generally starts at like $1000 USD for an aluminum commuter/hybrid with decent components and features and so they get sticker shock and think that all the bike shops are trying to rip them off because they have misinformed expectations about what bike parts actually cost because they just bought a whole damn ebike for about $1000, so how could parts for it cost $300-500 to do a full repair or upgrade, or why can't they just upgrade one part that works with their incompatible BSO components?
This is exacerbated by the issues that people that are brand new to bicycles don't understand that they need regular maintenance and parts replacement just like a car, but even worse and more frequently because bikes are less like a work truck and a lot more delicate watch or clock that's engineered to the bleeding edge of being light enough and strong enough for the job.
And I'm not sure what the solution is, but we're generating a fuckton of waste in shitty bicycle frames and parts and e-waste in non-standardized batteries and components that are effectively disposable.
I'm just smart enough that I could make and repair my own battery packs, but I also am smart enough to know I would need a bench full of gear to do it safely, including spot welders for building packs, battery analyzers and graders for sorting batteries into matched sets and more.
But all that being said? Hell yes EVs and PEVs are way easier to maintain than ICE vehicles.
Thankfully I've had ZERO problems with my DIY Bafang kit on a good analog host bike. I've ridden the absolute heck out of that thing in a bit over 3 years and I'm approaching 5000 miles. The battery is still going strong. If anything goes wrong with the motor core or transmission I know I can find parts to repair it. I can find replacement motor controllers and computers and all of the parts.
The only problems I've had with my DIY ebike have been normal bike problems and wear and tear. At local electricity prices it costs just a few pennies to charge. The total cost of ownership per mile is now down to something so small it's rounding error compared to an ICE vehicle.
posted by loquacious at 12:33 PM on May 30, 2023 [13 favorites]
But you might as well get rid of AM radio.
"BMW, Mazda, Volvo, Volkswagen and Tesla, among others, have either already removed or plan to remove AM radio from at least some electric models. Ford is going even further, reports the Detroit Free Press, and ditching AM in all new cars – gas or electric."
posted by Tomorrowful at 12:34 PM on May 30, 2023 [2 favorites]
"BMW, Mazda, Volvo, Volkswagen and Tesla, among others, have either already removed or plan to remove AM radio from at least some electric models. Ford is going even further, reports the Detroit Free Press, and ditching AM in all new cars – gas or electric."
posted by Tomorrowful at 12:34 PM on May 30, 2023 [2 favorites]
Unless there's a "it needs to be running the motor X times a week to avoid buildup/seizing" issue.
You'd hope that that is something the computers in the car could manage for you, assuming you're actually driving it.
posted by Dysk at 12:38 PM on May 30, 2023 [2 favorites]
You'd hope that that is something the computers in the car could manage for you, assuming you're actually driving it.
posted by Dysk at 12:38 PM on May 30, 2023 [2 favorites]
I have bought 4 new cars over the last 25 years. I bought them all through an auto-broker at my credit union. The experience was wonderful, call the broker, explain what I want, get a call back later that day with a price and a specific car, take delivery at work the next day and they drive away my trade in. The broker was dealing with fleet sales at the dealerships and had access to the entire state, so finding what you were looking for wasn't too hard. No haggling, no salespeople, highly recommended.
posted by doctor_negative at 12:39 PM on May 30, 2023 [24 favorites]
posted by doctor_negative at 12:39 PM on May 30, 2023 [24 favorites]
Asking car dealerships to actually focus on selling vehicles instead of duping people into very shitty financing would destroy entire swaths of the conservative gentry classes. It will never happen.
It's amazing how differently (usually worse) I get treated the moment I say "no" when asked if I'll need financing at an auto dealership.
I've been lucky enough to always be able to save up and pay cash for my cars -- even the time I needed a car relatively fast because my old one was stolen, I had cash in hand from the insurance payout plus a bit extra in the bank to cover the difference. Some salespeople don't care how you'll pay, because they get commission anyway. But some dealerships obviously incentivize the salespeople to push financing, because I often get a lot less care and attention when I make it clear I'm paying cash.
I also just hating negotiating and haggling over what is essentially a commodity. I kind of get it with a home purchase (though I hate it in that situation, as well, because I'm always afraid of getting ripped off), but with a car -- even a used car -- it's just infuriating because the salesperson has the upper hand, no matter what "trick the dealership" BS advice you try to follow.
posted by asnider at 12:49 PM on May 30, 2023 [4 favorites]
It's amazing how differently (usually worse) I get treated the moment I say "no" when asked if I'll need financing at an auto dealership.
I've been lucky enough to always be able to save up and pay cash for my cars -- even the time I needed a car relatively fast because my old one was stolen, I had cash in hand from the insurance payout plus a bit extra in the bank to cover the difference. Some salespeople don't care how you'll pay, because they get commission anyway. But some dealerships obviously incentivize the salespeople to push financing, because I often get a lot less care and attention when I make it clear I'm paying cash.
I also just hating negotiating and haggling over what is essentially a commodity. I kind of get it with a home purchase (though I hate it in that situation, as well, because I'm always afraid of getting ripped off), but with a car -- even a used car -- it's just infuriating because the salesperson has the upper hand, no matter what "trick the dealership" BS advice you try to follow.
posted by asnider at 12:49 PM on May 30, 2023 [4 favorites]
"BMW, Mazda, Volvo, Volkswagen and Tesla, among others, have either already removed or plan to remove AM radio from at least some electric models...
That's already old news. Conservatives have been up in arms for the past two weeks and there's bipartisan legislation that would mandate AM radio in all vehicles.
Ford reverses course and decides to keep AM radio on its vehicles
Commentary
AM Radio, Conservative Talk Shows Get Boost From AM Car Bill
posted by RonButNotStupid at 12:58 PM on May 30, 2023 [4 favorites]
That's already old news. Conservatives have been up in arms for the past two weeks and there's bipartisan legislation that would mandate AM radio in all vehicles.
Ford reverses course and decides to keep AM radio on its vehicles
Commentary
AM Radio, Conservative Talk Shows Get Boost From AM Car Bill
posted by RonButNotStupid at 12:58 PM on May 30, 2023 [4 favorites]
What doesn't change is the need for service. EVs make this worse; you can't just take one to your average shadetree mechanic / corner service center. Dealerships are being replaced by car service centers as the point of monopoly. And there aren't enough of them. I almost bought a Polestar 2 this year until I realized I'd have to go 150 miles to get the car worked on; their service network is very sparse right now.
Here is where I will say a nice thing about Teslas: there's way less required maintenance than with an equivalent gas engine vehicle, and you can get what you need (barring extensive crash damage) by using the app to order a mobile service tech to come to your car and fix it. It works very well! Here is where I will say a not-nice thing about Teslas: I had some actual crash damage that needed fixing, and getting the parts took a really long time, and it was so expensive that I don't want to give details because you guys will make fun of me. (Technically insurance paid for most of it, but I'm sure the insurance companies will get it back out of me in the long run.)
My previous experience was buying old cars off friends and family who were ready to upgrade to something new. It's the world's best method of acquiring a car. The only time I've observed the buying process at a traditional dealership was when I accompanied a friend to buy a car. Hers had died (gotten too expensive to maintain any longer), and her parents had promised to get her a (new, but not extravagant) replacement vehicle of her choice as a college graduation present. It was very unpleasant! All the the salespeople were enormously condescending. I try to keep experiences like this in perspective -- and remember that I don't think customers deserve for workers to fawn over them -- but it felt like she was spending a lot of money so that a salesperson could very attentively treat her like an idiot. I don't know what the Tesla person thought of me, and I don't care, because they were just there to supervise the test drive and make sure I knew I could also order through the website. Back then, it felt like the only way I'd ever want to buy a new car....though at this point, Elon Musk is so loudly unpleasant that I can't bring myself to extend my time in the Tesla ecosystem for another round.
The article talks about the political influence of the car dealership people, but I think the piece underrates how massive these guys are on a state level. They basically own every state legislature.
posted by grandiloquiet at 2:13 PM on May 30, 2023 [4 favorites]
Here is where I will say a nice thing about Teslas: there's way less required maintenance than with an equivalent gas engine vehicle, and you can get what you need (barring extensive crash damage) by using the app to order a mobile service tech to come to your car and fix it. It works very well! Here is where I will say a not-nice thing about Teslas: I had some actual crash damage that needed fixing, and getting the parts took a really long time, and it was so expensive that I don't want to give details because you guys will make fun of me. (Technically insurance paid for most of it, but I'm sure the insurance companies will get it back out of me in the long run.)
My previous experience was buying old cars off friends and family who were ready to upgrade to something new. It's the world's best method of acquiring a car. The only time I've observed the buying process at a traditional dealership was when I accompanied a friend to buy a car. Hers had died (gotten too expensive to maintain any longer), and her parents had promised to get her a (new, but not extravagant) replacement vehicle of her choice as a college graduation present. It was very unpleasant! All the the salespeople were enormously condescending. I try to keep experiences like this in perspective -- and remember that I don't think customers deserve for workers to fawn over them -- but it felt like she was spending a lot of money so that a salesperson could very attentively treat her like an idiot. I don't know what the Tesla person thought of me, and I don't care, because they were just there to supervise the test drive and make sure I knew I could also order through the website. Back then, it felt like the only way I'd ever want to buy a new car....though at this point, Elon Musk is so loudly unpleasant that I can't bring myself to extend my time in the Tesla ecosystem for another round.
The article talks about the political influence of the car dealership people, but I think the piece underrates how massive these guys are on a state level. They basically own every state legislature.
posted by grandiloquiet at 2:13 PM on May 30, 2023 [4 favorites]
Customers, however, would lie straight to my face all day, every day. They always think they're being clever too, having read some guide on how to get a good deal. I had a customer tell me they didn't have a trade in while the title to his car was sticking out of his back pocket. But the guide said to claim there isn't a trade until after you've negotiated the price of the car.
And all salespeople are honest? Gotta go "ask" the manager in the back about pricing? Gonna add a mandatory optional undercoating fee? Why is the initial price dependent on whether there's a trade-in? The car ought to cost what it costs. I'm not a car expert, I don't want to be a car expert, and I don't want to get financially screwed. Hence the guides, for better or worse.
Being a car salesperson is a shitty job and the negative stereotypes people have about them makes it worse. They just want to sell a fucking car so they can pay the fucking rent.
Being a car customer is a shitty task and the shady actions some dealerships perform make it worse. Some of us just want to buy a fucking car so we can pay the fucking rent.
posted by Dez at 2:15 PM on May 30, 2023 [10 favorites]
And all salespeople are honest? Gotta go "ask" the manager in the back about pricing? Gonna add a mandatory optional undercoating fee? Why is the initial price dependent on whether there's a trade-in? The car ought to cost what it costs. I'm not a car expert, I don't want to be a car expert, and I don't want to get financially screwed. Hence the guides, for better or worse.
Being a car salesperson is a shitty job and the negative stereotypes people have about them makes it worse. They just want to sell a fucking car so they can pay the fucking rent.
Being a car customer is a shitty task and the shady actions some dealerships perform make it worse. Some of us just want to buy a fucking car so we can pay the fucking rent.
posted by Dez at 2:15 PM on May 30, 2023 [10 favorites]
Being a car customer is a shitty task and the shady actions some dealerships perform make it worse. Some of us just want to buy a fucking car so we can pay the fucking rent.
Yup, when I bought my Jeep I had all the options the way I wanted them on paper, and trying to get a dealership to even respond to me was a nightmare. It would have been an extremely easy transaction for them but they all wanted me to drive a couple hours out of my way to talk to someone before they'd just order the thing that I'd already specced out and lined up financing for.
I finally did end up getting a dealer to put the order in, but when the sheet came back it had matching fenders and rims that I didn't ask for and didn't want. I immediately told them to pound sand and used a service that my credit union who was doing the financing provided.
THEY gave my spec to a dealer and I happily drove off in the Jeep I wanted that was delivered to my house 3 months later. Maybe I spent $1500 more than I needed to or whatever, but I'd happily pay that money to not spend time dealing with a car salesman.
Some professions don't deserve the reputation they have, but man, car salesmen aren't one of them.
Our other vehicle is a Tesla (purchased before Elon went full Elon) and the transparent pricing made that a joy, we just had to watch out for the QC, it being a Tesla and all. Worked great in California but it has a ton of leaks in Oregon weather.
We'll eventually swap the Tesla for the new electric VW Bus when it finally comes to the US and I'm hoping that we have the option to bypass a dealership by then. I'm not looking to get the best deal out there, I just don't want to spend most of my day negotiating with someone I actively despise.
posted by mikesch at 2:45 PM on May 30, 2023 [5 favorites]
Yup, when I bought my Jeep I had all the options the way I wanted them on paper, and trying to get a dealership to even respond to me was a nightmare. It would have been an extremely easy transaction for them but they all wanted me to drive a couple hours out of my way to talk to someone before they'd just order the thing that I'd already specced out and lined up financing for.
I finally did end up getting a dealer to put the order in, but when the sheet came back it had matching fenders and rims that I didn't ask for and didn't want. I immediately told them to pound sand and used a service that my credit union who was doing the financing provided.
THEY gave my spec to a dealer and I happily drove off in the Jeep I wanted that was delivered to my house 3 months later. Maybe I spent $1500 more than I needed to or whatever, but I'd happily pay that money to not spend time dealing with a car salesman.
Some professions don't deserve the reputation they have, but man, car salesmen aren't one of them.
Our other vehicle is a Tesla (purchased before Elon went full Elon) and the transparent pricing made that a joy, we just had to watch out for the QC, it being a Tesla and all. Worked great in California but it has a ton of leaks in Oregon weather.
We'll eventually swap the Tesla for the new electric VW Bus when it finally comes to the US and I'm hoping that we have the option to bypass a dealership by then. I'm not looking to get the best deal out there, I just don't want to spend most of my day negotiating with someone I actively despise.
posted by mikesch at 2:45 PM on May 30, 2023 [5 favorites]
and it was so expensive that I don't want to give details because you guys will make fun of me. (Technically insurance paid for most of it, but I'm sure the insurance companies will get it back out of me in the long run.)
They'll get it back out of us. Car insurance is getting more expensive even if you have a crappy car, cars are costing more on average and keep getting more and more expensive to repair so the price is getting redistributed on everybody. I'd be mad at the insurance company, but that's just raw actuarial reality. We should be mad at us.
posted by WaterAndPixels at 2:45 PM on May 30, 2023 [2 favorites]
They'll get it back out of us. Car insurance is getting more expensive even if you have a crappy car, cars are costing more on average and keep getting more and more expensive to repair so the price is getting redistributed on everybody. I'd be mad at the insurance company, but that's just raw actuarial reality. We should be mad at us.
posted by WaterAndPixels at 2:45 PM on May 30, 2023 [2 favorites]
One also has to keep in mind that cars today are different from any other time in history. They're basically made to dissipate energy to save the occupants rather than trying to keep the structure intact. This means a lot more damage is one-off and is way more expensive to fix.
posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock at 3:12 PM on May 30, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock at 3:12 PM on May 30, 2023 [5 favorites]
EVs make this worse; you can't just take one to your average shadetree mechanic / corner service center.
This has been the case with ICE autos for a while now.
Here is where I will say a nice thing about Teslas: there's way less required maintenance than with an equivalent gas engine vehicle
I had a good laugh a few months back when a local TV station news web site ran an editorial warning of one unforeseen peril resulting from increasing EV ownership: It's going to put car mechanics out of work! Like, wait, I should buy a car with implied less reliability and more required maintenance because of the support personnel I'll have to pay for, that I otherwise won't need with the EV? Maybe there are some morons out there who would be convinced by this argument, but who makes a car purchase because it will cost more in repair and downtime? Does anyone think car buyers should feel guilty because they are buying an overall better vehicle?
posted by 2N2222 at 3:37 PM on May 30, 2023 [8 favorites]
This has been the case with ICE autos for a while now.
Here is where I will say a nice thing about Teslas: there's way less required maintenance than with an equivalent gas engine vehicle
I had a good laugh a few months back when a local TV station news web site ran an editorial warning of one unforeseen peril resulting from increasing EV ownership: It's going to put car mechanics out of work! Like, wait, I should buy a car with implied less reliability and more required maintenance because of the support personnel I'll have to pay for, that I otherwise won't need with the EV? Maybe there are some morons out there who would be convinced by this argument, but who makes a car purchase because it will cost more in repair and downtime? Does anyone think car buyers should feel guilty because they are buying an overall better vehicle?
posted by 2N2222 at 3:37 PM on May 30, 2023 [8 favorites]
We'll eventually swap the Tesla for the new electric VW Bus when it finally comes to the US and I'm hoping that we have the option to bypass a dealership by then
I think you're gonna need that dealer because, if you look at an ID4 owners forum these days, many have been waiting months to get their cars back from service for various recalls. Some are requiring a full battery swap.
posted by JoeZydeco at 3:46 PM on May 30, 2023
I think you're gonna need that dealer because, if you look at an ID4 owners forum these days, many have been waiting months to get their cars back from service for various recalls. Some are requiring a full battery swap.
posted by JoeZydeco at 3:46 PM on May 30, 2023
I’ll respond to this thread, but let me talk to my manager first.
posted by Thorzdad at 3:56 PM on May 30, 2023 [9 favorites]
posted by Thorzdad at 3:56 PM on May 30, 2023 [9 favorites]
As another pre-musk-is-a-giant-asshole Tesla owner...
My S is the best car I have ever owned, even if it makes me stupid, (it does). If my fob is in my pocket, I can walk up, get in, and go. Mobile service is sweet. Not being able to talk to anyone in service, (they don't have phones, other than their cells), not so much. And yes, collision repair is ugly.
Was interesting to see all the stuff they removed when they made msWindo's 3. Pay for supercharging. Pay for Navigation. No AM. No dash display. Pay for backup assist. Hate having to drive her car... I always feel the Musk
posted by Windopaene at 4:00 PM on May 30, 2023
My S is the best car I have ever owned, even if it makes me stupid, (it does). If my fob is in my pocket, I can walk up, get in, and go. Mobile service is sweet. Not being able to talk to anyone in service, (they don't have phones, other than their cells), not so much. And yes, collision repair is ugly.
Was interesting to see all the stuff they removed when they made msWindo's 3. Pay for supercharging. Pay for Navigation. No AM. No dash display. Pay for backup assist. Hate having to drive her car... I always feel the Musk
posted by Windopaene at 4:00 PM on May 30, 2023
I've only bought a car once but I had good experience with the various salespeople I interacted with. One salesperson seemed a bit off but I don't think they were trying to be sneaky or anything like that. I actually feel a bit bad that I didn't end up getting a Toyota because the salesperson spent a lot of time taking us for test drives of various vehicles and never tried to pressure us into buying one.
posted by any portmanteau in a storm at 4:09 PM on May 30, 2023
posted by any portmanteau in a storm at 4:09 PM on May 30, 2023
"There's no girl, Oed. Let me tell you. The bad dream that I used to have all the time, about the car lot, remember that? I could never even tell you about it. But I can now. It doesn't bother me any more. It was only that sign in the lot, that's what scared me. In the dream I'd be going about a normal day's business and suddenly, with no warning, there'd be the sign. We were a member of the National Automobile Dealers' Association. N.A.D.A. Just this creaking metal sign that said nada, nada, against the blue sky. I used to wake up hollering."Thomas Pynchon, from "The Crying of Lot 49"
posted by Nerd of the North at 4:38 PM on May 30, 2023 [6 favorites]
Windopaene: As another pre-musk-is-a-giant-asshole Tesla owner...
I ordered my Model 3 in June of 2018, when production was still ramping up. I had to wait until September 30 for delivery, but it was worth it. Avoiding the whole "dealership experience" was so refreshing. I never want to go through buying a car at a dealership again.
Aside from the direct-purchase advantage, the other thing that swung the decision was Tesla's aggressive build-out of the charging network. The pace of expansion seems to keep accelerating (see this tracking site).
posted by Surely This at 4:43 PM on May 30, 2023
I ordered my Model 3 in June of 2018, when production was still ramping up. I had to wait until September 30 for delivery, but it was worth it. Avoiding the whole "dealership experience" was so refreshing. I never want to go through buying a car at a dealership again.
Aside from the direct-purchase advantage, the other thing that swung the decision was Tesla's aggressive build-out of the charging network. The pace of expansion seems to keep accelerating (see this tracking site).
posted by Surely This at 4:43 PM on May 30, 2023
Interviewed for a job at a car dealership once. Half way through the interview, the guy just got up and opened the door, interview over. So I left, confused and kind of pissed off. Later I realized that was probably part of the interview. I was supposed to "sell" him on hiring me. I'm glad I didn't get that. Never had a positive experience with anyone who works in car sales.
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 4:51 PM on May 30, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 4:51 PM on May 30, 2023 [3 favorites]
The last time I bought a car, I knew exactly what make, model, color and options I wanted and already had financing. The salesperson contributed zero to the process except to try to sell me some bullshit undercoatings.
posted by octothorpe at 5:04 PM on May 30, 2023
posted by octothorpe at 5:04 PM on May 30, 2023
EVs make this worse; you can't just take one to your average shadetree mechanic
This hasn't been true for most cars for some time now. Being an auto mechanic is a highly trained and specialized profession. There is a ton of very high tech stuff under the hoods of both gas vehicles and EVs.
There are definitely some jobs a person can still do themselves or can take it to pretty much any mechanic (brakes, wheel alignments, etc) but a lot of repairs and the like will need someone that specializes in that brand.
I just fucking hate negotiating. It's a mass produced item, list a price, give us the info, please and thank you.
A lot of dealerships have done exactly this*. Salespeople don't get a commission but just a flat amount per car. This works well for new cars because the dealer's cost is the same at all of them and it's public info (the invoice price). Though one customer did accuse me of making a fake website when I showed him the car he was trying to buy on kbb.com. So all the dealers know what they're selling for. The bread and butter type cars have very little markup. Which is fine because on new cars dealerships mostly make money on monthly unit bonuses and the financing. The finance thing is kind of interesting because dealers work with a LOT of banks selling loans so often the customer can sign a loan from their bank OR credit union at an even better rate than you can get yourself.
*To be fair, the Walser dealers up here in MN made that transition because they got caught doing a bunch of shady BS (then it caught on at other dealerships), I was in the car business at the time and we didn't like those dealerships before that because the way they lean into the stereotypes (the do come from somewhere) made honest salespeople's jobs harder. My dad knew the Walsers, he did not like the Walsers. Denny Hecker was similarly shady but worse (my father simply refused to hire anyone that had sold cars at a Hecker dealer for any length of time), I remember hearing he got let out of prison a few years ago. I'm told that Dan and Dave Luther who took over the Luther dealerships from their father are both pretty okay. I worked at a Luther Dealership for a while, the GM was a dickhead but all the other managers and salespeople were great.
posted by VTX at 5:10 PM on May 30, 2023 [4 favorites]
This hasn't been true for most cars for some time now. Being an auto mechanic is a highly trained and specialized profession. There is a ton of very high tech stuff under the hoods of both gas vehicles and EVs.
There are definitely some jobs a person can still do themselves or can take it to pretty much any mechanic (brakes, wheel alignments, etc) but a lot of repairs and the like will need someone that specializes in that brand.
I just fucking hate negotiating. It's a mass produced item, list a price, give us the info, please and thank you.
A lot of dealerships have done exactly this*. Salespeople don't get a commission but just a flat amount per car. This works well for new cars because the dealer's cost is the same at all of them and it's public info (the invoice price). Though one customer did accuse me of making a fake website when I showed him the car he was trying to buy on kbb.com. So all the dealers know what they're selling for. The bread and butter type cars have very little markup. Which is fine because on new cars dealerships mostly make money on monthly unit bonuses and the financing. The finance thing is kind of interesting because dealers work with a LOT of banks selling loans so often the customer can sign a loan from their bank OR credit union at an even better rate than you can get yourself.
*To be fair, the Walser dealers up here in MN made that transition because they got caught doing a bunch of shady BS (then it caught on at other dealerships), I was in the car business at the time and we didn't like those dealerships before that because the way they lean into the stereotypes (the do come from somewhere) made honest salespeople's jobs harder. My dad knew the Walsers, he did not like the Walsers. Denny Hecker was similarly shady but worse (my father simply refused to hire anyone that had sold cars at a Hecker dealer for any length of time), I remember hearing he got let out of prison a few years ago. I'm told that Dan and Dave Luther who took over the Luther dealerships from their father are both pretty okay. I worked at a Luther Dealership for a while, the GM was a dickhead but all the other managers and salespeople were great.
posted by VTX at 5:10 PM on May 30, 2023 [4 favorites]
Last new car I bought, I emailed the dealer (after test driving three different cars at two other dealerships) — “The website says you have a beige 2015 Subaru Legacy in stock with XYZ options. Is it still available?”
“Sort of. It’s ordered and due from the factory in two weeks.”
“Well, I’ll buy it for $XX,XXX, including taxes and fees. You figure out what you need the invoice to look like, I just care about bottom line cost.”
“Sure thing.”
Two weeks later, I met the sales guy for the first time. No sales pitch or anything. I think he was honestly happy to have a clean, easy sale and mostly just showed me the ins and outs of the car, including a few things I didn’t know.
The finance guy tried to upsell me on an extended warranty but when I told him I wasn’t interested because I have the savings to cover a big repair and the reason I was buying a Subaru was because I knew I wouldn’t have to he conceded the point and just lined up the financing. Finance guys gotta finance, I guess.
In the end, I think I was within a few hundred dollars of the Edmunds recommended price. I probably could’ve negotiated harder to get the best possible deal but I was happy to have a smooth, low-hassle experience.
posted by Big Al 8000 at 5:28 PM on May 30, 2023 [2 favorites]
“Sort of. It’s ordered and due from the factory in two weeks.”
“Well, I’ll buy it for $XX,XXX, including taxes and fees. You figure out what you need the invoice to look like, I just care about bottom line cost.”
“Sure thing.”
Two weeks later, I met the sales guy for the first time. No sales pitch or anything. I think he was honestly happy to have a clean, easy sale and mostly just showed me the ins and outs of the car, including a few things I didn’t know.
The finance guy tried to upsell me on an extended warranty but when I told him I wasn’t interested because I have the savings to cover a big repair and the reason I was buying a Subaru was because I knew I wouldn’t have to he conceded the point and just lined up the financing. Finance guys gotta finance, I guess.
In the end, I think I was within a few hundred dollars of the Edmunds recommended price. I probably could’ve negotiated harder to get the best possible deal but I was happy to have a smooth, low-hassle experience.
posted by Big Al 8000 at 5:28 PM on May 30, 2023 [2 favorites]
My manager's never done this before, but he says I can knock a hundred bucks of that TruCoat.
posted by Ickster at 7:32 PM on May 30, 2023 [11 favorites]
posted by Ickster at 7:32 PM on May 30, 2023 [11 favorites]
Here a fun game to play next time you're out driving:
Look for the cars that have a blinking third brake light. That's a "Pulse" or similar system, added to the car on the lot and sold to the customer at a huge profit for the dealer. Costs about $30 and the dealer will list it from $500-$800 on the sticker. And, sorry, it's already installed. We can't take it off.
posted by JoeZydeco at 8:34 PM on May 30, 2023
Look for the cars that have a blinking third brake light. That's a "Pulse" or similar system, added to the car on the lot and sold to the customer at a huge profit for the dealer. Costs about $30 and the dealer will list it from $500-$800 on the sticker. And, sorry, it's already installed. We can't take it off.
posted by JoeZydeco at 8:34 PM on May 30, 2023
Speaking of fun games...
Gotta go "ask" the manager in the back about pricing?
As soon as the salesperson turns their back, you slide around the desk into their chair, use their phone, and start calling other dealers for prices. Grab whatever paper they have on their desk and write on it, taking notes with names & prices. Really make yourself at home.
When they come back, make them wait while you finish your call.
(Pretty sure the salespeople hot desk, so this is not quite as personally invasive as it seems. But even if they had pics of their kids up, that wouldn't stop me, ha ha.)
posted by ryanrs at 12:18 AM on May 31, 2023 [1 favorite]
Gotta go "ask" the manager in the back about pricing?
As soon as the salesperson turns their back, you slide around the desk into their chair, use their phone, and start calling other dealers for prices. Grab whatever paper they have on their desk and write on it, taking notes with names & prices. Really make yourself at home.
When they come back, make them wait while you finish your call.
(Pretty sure the salespeople hot desk, so this is not quite as personally invasive as it seems. But even if they had pics of their kids up, that wouldn't stop me, ha ha.)
posted by ryanrs at 12:18 AM on May 31, 2023 [1 favorite]
Cntl F. "Credit union" found. Yay for credit unions. Down with these petit NADA tyrants
Ride a bike.
posted by eustatic at 5:11 AM on May 31, 2023 [2 favorites]
Ride a bike.
posted by eustatic at 5:11 AM on May 31, 2023 [2 favorites]
A friend was (still is) GM at a dealership, and when we asked if he had any advice about car-buying, he simply said to come down to their place. He told one of the salespeople to treat us like family, and she did just that: she rode around with us in the van we wanted, told us about it, and answered questions patiently. There was a price offered, I think that maybe we conter-offered, and it was ready a day or two later.
Jesus, that was a great way to buy a car. So much less stress and preemptive aggro.
posted by wenestvedt at 6:55 AM on May 31, 2023
Jesus, that was a great way to buy a car. So much less stress and preemptive aggro.
posted by wenestvedt at 6:55 AM on May 31, 2023
Yay for credit unions.
The finance guys know that CUs exist and since they're not making any profit on the deal it's all made on the financing. The negotiated price will vary depending on if you are financing in-house or outside.
And yes, people do finance and then flip the loan to a CU right afterward. The kinder dealers will ask that you wait a few months to do it so they get their kickbank from the bank. If you do it right away they get pissed. Hope your next service appointment goes well.
posted by JoeZydeco at 7:49 AM on May 31, 2023
The finance guys know that CUs exist and since they're not making any profit on the deal it's all made on the financing. The negotiated price will vary depending on if you are financing in-house or outside.
And yes, people do finance and then flip the loan to a CU right afterward. The kinder dealers will ask that you wait a few months to do it so they get their kickbank from the bank. If you do it right away they get pissed. Hope your next service appointment goes well.
posted by JoeZydeco at 7:49 AM on May 31, 2023
VTX, its not personal. I just fucking hate negotiating. It's a mass produced item, list a price, give us the info, please and thank you.--WaterAndPixels
I've experienced the good and bad--both at Toyota dealerships. The first was the typical nightmare, where they bring you in with a 'set' price, then you go in and they do all the tricks, adding all kinds of extras to the car at inflated prices, leaving you to sit at the desk to stew alone for 20 minutes for some reason, then to play a final set of shenanigans at the finance desk. Really terrible experience. For someone like me who doesn't like to haggle it was like something out of a horror movie.
My next experience was the opposite. Because of Covid, I wanted to do the whole deal over the phone and just go in to sign documents. Toyota's ads claimed that their dealers support this but this turned out to be a lie. They really have no control over what their dealers do and there is no way many of their dealers would give up all the tricks that require the sucker customers to come in for hours of mental games.
But I kept calling around until I found one that would do this. And it was wonderful. Everything over the phone and very straightforward. Just go in to sign papers, and no extras or tricks involved. To VTX's point, there are good, honest salesmen and they are worth their weight in gold.
But really, what the honest salesmen are doing is just their own personal version of Tesla's model. Here's the price--if you want it, sign the documents, then come in to pay and you'll get the car. So if the transition to EVs is going to push that model, then we'll all (except the morally questionable salesemen) will come out ahead.
posted by eye of newt at 12:35 PM on May 31, 2023 [1 favorite]
I've experienced the good and bad--both at Toyota dealerships. The first was the typical nightmare, where they bring you in with a 'set' price, then you go in and they do all the tricks, adding all kinds of extras to the car at inflated prices, leaving you to sit at the desk to stew alone for 20 minutes for some reason, then to play a final set of shenanigans at the finance desk. Really terrible experience. For someone like me who doesn't like to haggle it was like something out of a horror movie.
My next experience was the opposite. Because of Covid, I wanted to do the whole deal over the phone and just go in to sign documents. Toyota's ads claimed that their dealers support this but this turned out to be a lie. They really have no control over what their dealers do and there is no way many of their dealers would give up all the tricks that require the sucker customers to come in for hours of mental games.
But I kept calling around until I found one that would do this. And it was wonderful. Everything over the phone and very straightforward. Just go in to sign papers, and no extras or tricks involved. To VTX's point, there are good, honest salesmen and they are worth their weight in gold.
But really, what the honest salesmen are doing is just their own personal version of Tesla's model. Here's the price--if you want it, sign the documents, then come in to pay and you'll get the car. So if the transition to EVs is going to push that model, then we'll all (except the morally questionable salesemen) will come out ahead.
posted by eye of newt at 12:35 PM on May 31, 2023 [1 favorite]
Customers, however, would lie straight to my face all day ... claim there isn't a trade until after you've negotiated the price of the car.
Then why would it matter if there was a trade in, since you are implying it doesn't make a difference here? If it doesn't matter, why ask the question at all?
posted by soelo at 3:39 PM on May 31, 2023 [2 favorites]
Then why would it matter if there was a trade in, since you are implying it doesn't make a difference here? If it doesn't matter, why ask the question at all?
posted by soelo at 3:39 PM on May 31, 2023 [2 favorites]
It's an easy segue to ask them about their current car, what they like/don't like about it, why it doesn't meet their needs anymore.
And it matters logistically because I'll need to have the used car manager appraise the thing. He liked to have the customer come on a quick test drive and tell him about the car. He just liked talking to people and it gave him a story to tell the next person to buy the car. "They traded that in on a new Maxima, said he wanted something with more bells and whistles, real nice couple. They were a teacher and a dentist if I remember right. It made such and such noise on the test drive so we checked it out and had replaced." He'd be able to do that with every trade in they had in inventory.
If they don't tell me about the trade until we've agreed on the price then there's this needless delay and we have to redo some paperwork.
But really it's just that when someone responds that way it tells me that they see me as some adversary they need to outwit rather than a real person just trying to pay the rent. So now I need to play his game and make him feel like he won and it just feels gross.
If you really want to get a good deal on a car:
1. Don't worry about the price until you know this car is a good fit. If you're counting on your negotiating skills to make the thing fit your budget, that car is too expensive.
2. Be honest and motivated. Nothing will motivate sales managers to cut someone a deal like someone who REALLY REALLY wants to buy a car right now. Know what price you're willing to pay and stick to your guns.
posted by VTX at 5:01 PM on May 31, 2023
And it matters logistically because I'll need to have the used car manager appraise the thing. He liked to have the customer come on a quick test drive and tell him about the car. He just liked talking to people and it gave him a story to tell the next person to buy the car. "They traded that in on a new Maxima, said he wanted something with more bells and whistles, real nice couple. They were a teacher and a dentist if I remember right. It made such and such noise on the test drive so we checked it out and had
If they don't tell me about the trade until we've agreed on the price then there's this needless delay and we have to redo some paperwork.
But really it's just that when someone responds that way it tells me that they see me as some adversary they need to outwit rather than a real person just trying to pay the rent. So now I need to play his game and make him feel like he won and it just feels gross.
If you really want to get a good deal on a car:
1. Don't worry about the price until you know this car is a good fit. If you're counting on your negotiating skills to make the thing fit your budget, that car is too expensive.
2. Be honest and motivated. Nothing will motivate sales managers to cut someone a deal like someone who REALLY REALLY wants to buy a car right now. Know what price you're willing to pay and stick to your guns.
posted by VTX at 5:01 PM on May 31, 2023
Today some guy "just trying to pay the rent" cold called me because he works at the dealership where I bought my last car. All friendly, asking me how I liked my old car and "how many miles are on that bad boy". Bad Boy; it's an Audi A3, it's about as dull as a car gets.
Perhaps he was about to give me a really great deal on a trade-in! Alas, I was "just trying to eat my fucking lunch" so I told him to put me on the do not call list and hung up on him. Every three months the FNG at the dealership calls me with this same pitch. Every time I ask for them to never call me again. Pay your rent some other way, new guy.
The traditional car sales process in the US is awful. It degrades both the salespeople and the customers and it creates a hostile relationship.
posted by Nelson at 7:17 PM on May 31, 2023 [2 favorites]
Perhaps he was about to give me a really great deal on a trade-in! Alas, I was "just trying to eat my fucking lunch" so I told him to put me on the do not call list and hung up on him. Every three months the FNG at the dealership calls me with this same pitch. Every time I ask for them to never call me again. Pay your rent some other way, new guy.
The traditional car sales process in the US is awful. It degrades both the salespeople and the customers and it creates a hostile relationship.
posted by Nelson at 7:17 PM on May 31, 2023 [2 favorites]
Just a passing note that fake health supplements, duct-cleaning cold callers and 519 scammers are also just trying to "pay the rent." So, that's not a great defence of a bad business. Capitalism is indeed from the devil, but you really don't have to take up the devil's pitchfork to get by in this world.
posted by seanmpuckett at 5:02 AM on June 1, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by seanmpuckett at 5:02 AM on June 1, 2023 [4 favorites]
Well yeah, do you think people who have a lot of other options take those jobs?
Give people better options and they will make better choices.
Here's a joke from my time in the car business: Do you know what they call a car salesperson that works 40 hours a week?
...part time.
And that's at dealership trying NOT to be shitty.
posted by VTX at 6:01 AM on June 1, 2023
Give people better options and they will make better choices.
Here's a joke from my time in the car business: Do you know what they call a car salesperson that works 40 hours a week?
...part time.
And that's at dealership trying NOT to be shitty.
posted by VTX at 6:01 AM on June 1, 2023
Nothing will motivate sales managers to cut someone a deal like someone who REALLY REALLY wants to buy a car right now.
I'm sorry, I've really been trying not to roll my eyes visibly in this thread, but this is utterly at odds with every experience I have ever had at an auto dealership. The more visibly I want or need the car, the more I hear "Well, the price is the price," and "Sorry, I can't throw in anything else."
I walked into a dealer a few years back and said "My last car got totalled, so I don't have a trade-in," and the guy wouldn't replace a burned-out turn signal light bulb without adding $10 to the number on the sticker.
Your former industry has a shitty reputation for a reason.
posted by Etrigan at 6:29 AM on June 1, 2023 [8 favorites]
I'm sorry, I've really been trying not to roll my eyes visibly in this thread, but this is utterly at odds with every experience I have ever had at an auto dealership. The more visibly I want or need the car, the more I hear "Well, the price is the price," and "Sorry, I can't throw in anything else."
I walked into a dealer a few years back and said "My last car got totalled, so I don't have a trade-in," and the guy wouldn't replace a burned-out turn signal light bulb without adding $10 to the number on the sticker.
Your former industry has a shitty reputation for a reason.
posted by Etrigan at 6:29 AM on June 1, 2023 [8 favorites]
The past few years have been totally weird for the car business. Demand has been sky high and supply low so no discounts has been what constitutes a good deal for a bit. When I bought a used car a few years ago two other buyers showed up while I was buying the car to try and buy it out from under me. I drove an especially hard bargain and my kid (three at the time) charmed the heck of my saleswoman so I was able to pay the asking price AND get a free t-shirt for me, one for him, and a snow globe. Most folks only got one free t-shirt but I was very clear about how badly I wanted to buy that car.
I've heard it's started relax some and it should be back to some kind of normal eventually.
Aside from that, I've sold more cars than you've bought and my dad has sold an order of magnitude or three more than that as well as actually being a sales manager for decades. That advice is coming from him as much as me.
If any mefite in the Twin Cities metro area wants me to come with them to help them buy a car I will (I really like when I can do stuff like this for people) and I'll get you whatever deal there is to be had.
I never said that there are not ANY shitty dealers, far from it. But it's not the only way things are done. Owners hire the GMs who hire the sales managers so if the owner is an asshole (and many of them are)...well, you know.
The reputation comes from the '50s and '60s when salespeople in plaid sport coats would appraise your trade in by putting the bumper against a tree and hitting the gas to burn out the clutch. Or, because they were forbidden by law to sell a car for more than it's MSRP just after WWII. So they'd hang their neck tie on the mirror and tell the customer than they must buy the car with the tie and the tie costs an extra $2,000. And that's when all the hidden fee BS got started too. Then a lot of dealerships have moved glacially slow from there. It's very resistant to change but some have (and not always by their own choice but then they find themselves selling more cars so it tends to stick).
posted by VTX at 9:10 AM on June 1, 2023
I've heard it's started relax some and it should be back to some kind of normal eventually.
Aside from that, I've sold more cars than you've bought and my dad has sold an order of magnitude or three more than that as well as actually being a sales manager for decades. That advice is coming from him as much as me.
If any mefite in the Twin Cities metro area wants me to come with them to help them buy a car I will (I really like when I can do stuff like this for people) and I'll get you whatever deal there is to be had.
I never said that there are not ANY shitty dealers, far from it. But it's not the only way things are done. Owners hire the GMs who hire the sales managers so if the owner is an asshole (and many of them are)...well, you know.
The reputation comes from the '50s and '60s when salespeople in plaid sport coats would appraise your trade in by putting the bumper against a tree and hitting the gas to burn out the clutch. Or, because they were forbidden by law to sell a car for more than it's MSRP just after WWII. So they'd hang their neck tie on the mirror and tell the customer than they must buy the car with the tie and the tie costs an extra $2,000. And that's when all the hidden fee BS got started too. Then a lot of dealerships have moved glacially slow from there. It's very resistant to change but some have (and not always by their own choice but then they find themselves selling more cars so it tends to stick).
posted by VTX at 9:10 AM on June 1, 2023
The reputation isn't restricted to America. I don't think first-party dealerships have quite the same rep here in the UK, but used car salesman is absolutely shorthand for dodgy character.
posted by Dysk at 11:28 AM on June 1, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by Dysk at 11:28 AM on June 1, 2023 [1 favorite]
Given that the owners of these dealer networks are almost all conservative dickheads helped by either inheriting it from their fathers or being taken under the wing of an older generation owner, it's not that that surprising that they've tried to conserve their dickhead way of selling cars.
It comes from the top down with the caveat that if you're selling cars, even if your methods are much more honest than that owner thinks they should be, you can get away with pretty much anything. That's true at the general manager/sales manager level too.
So that's how you get dealerships and sales staff that buck the trend pretty hard. Done well it is a more effective way to sell cars so it'll sticks reasonably well.
But the owners are the problem.
For example, used cars either come from trade ins or from a wholesale auction. Back in the early 2000s they started using webcasts and letting people bid on cars online. These auctions go fast. They usually have a couple of lanes going. Each lane is about 100' long with cars put in drive and idle through. By the time they hit the end, they're sold. My dad used to fly around the country to different auction sites to buy cars, sometimes buying cars at two different auctions in two different states on the same day. So he was ALL IN on the webcast auctions from the state. Now, everyone that buys cars at these auctions knows someone who knows someone that thought they got a screaming deal on a car only to find out the side they couldn't see was smashed in. So it was very slow to catch on. These days they provide an detailed condition report on every vehicle that notes every scratch and ding on the car. Nonetheless, when I wanted a Nissan Altima V6 SE that my dad was going to buy and sell to me at wholesale price, we bought it for $3,000 less than the usual wholesales price because the car was in New Jersey which had a HUGE blizzard the day before. So they weren't running cars through the line as they were all under huge snow drifts. We had looked at the condition report, the thing was in great shape. Just neither of us would actually lay eyes on the thing until it showed up. No one else would bid on it because they didn't get to see with their own eyes. That was in 2012!
posted by VTX at 6:06 PM on June 3, 2023
It comes from the top down with the caveat that if you're selling cars, even if your methods are much more honest than that owner thinks they should be, you can get away with pretty much anything. That's true at the general manager/sales manager level too.
So that's how you get dealerships and sales staff that buck the trend pretty hard. Done well it is a more effective way to sell cars so it'll sticks reasonably well.
But the owners are the problem.
For example, used cars either come from trade ins or from a wholesale auction. Back in the early 2000s they started using webcasts and letting people bid on cars online. These auctions go fast. They usually have a couple of lanes going. Each lane is about 100' long with cars put in drive and idle through. By the time they hit the end, they're sold. My dad used to fly around the country to different auction sites to buy cars, sometimes buying cars at two different auctions in two different states on the same day. So he was ALL IN on the webcast auctions from the state. Now, everyone that buys cars at these auctions knows someone who knows someone that thought they got a screaming deal on a car only to find out the side they couldn't see was smashed in. So it was very slow to catch on. These days they provide an detailed condition report on every vehicle that notes every scratch and ding on the car. Nonetheless, when I wanted a Nissan Altima V6 SE that my dad was going to buy and sell to me at wholesale price, we bought it for $3,000 less than the usual wholesales price because the car was in New Jersey which had a HUGE blizzard the day before. So they weren't running cars through the line as they were all under huge snow drifts. We had looked at the condition report, the thing was in great shape. Just neither of us would actually lay eyes on the thing until it showed up. No one else would bid on it because they didn't get to see with their own eyes. That was in 2012!
posted by VTX at 6:06 PM on June 3, 2023
The reputation isn't restricted to America. I don't think first-party dealerships have quite the same rep here in the UK, but used car salesman is absolutely shorthand for dodgy character.
In Dahl's Matilda, her dad is a used car salesman who puts sawdust in the tanks and uses power tools to rewind the odometer, right? I'd be interested if there's someone from somewhere where used car salesmen actually have a good reputation for being honest and straightforward.
posted by Audreynachrome at 2:15 AM on June 5, 2023
In Dahl's Matilda, her dad is a used car salesman who puts sawdust in the tanks and uses power tools to rewind the odometer, right? I'd be interested if there's someone from somewhere where used car salesmen actually have a good reputation for being honest and straightforward.
posted by Audreynachrome at 2:15 AM on June 5, 2023
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posted by seanmpuckett at 9:07 AM on May 30, 2023 [68 favorites]