She’s fine and she’s human
June 4, 2023 12:25 AM Subscribe
Searching for Meg White - a profile and almost interview of the difficult-to-track-down White Stripes drummer.
I read that article this morning and was impressed. It should be taught in journalism school in a class about how to write about a subject who doesn’t want to talk to you without coming across as a stalker.
Also, people who talk nonsense about Meg White’s drumming is on my list of red flags for people I shouldn’t become friends with, it’s one of the dumbest weird sexist memes in pop culture, and it should take almost no mental effort to see past it.
posted by Kattullus at 4:05 AM on June 4, 2023 [43 favorites]
Also, people who talk nonsense about Meg White’s drumming is on my list of red flags for people I shouldn’t become friends with, it’s one of the dumbest weird sexist memes in pop culture, and it should take almost no mental effort to see past it.
posted by Kattullus at 4:05 AM on June 4, 2023 [43 favorites]
Solidarity of the Shy
posted by BlunderingArtist at 4:56 AM on June 4, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by BlunderingArtist at 4:56 AM on June 4, 2023 [4 favorites]
I am one of those who thinks she’s a crappy drummer, however that opinion is based on the few songs that were popular. If there are songs where she actually shows skill I’m happy to hear them.
I didn’t know it was a cultural thing to hate on her drumming. My opinion comes as someone who did percussion for about 10 years in school. And I know no one that was into the white stripes, so I didn’t hear other peoples opinions. (And I mostly only do the Internet on MetaFilter, was hate on her a thing here?)
posted by LizBoBiz at 5:07 AM on June 4, 2023 [2 favorites]
I didn’t know it was a cultural thing to hate on her drumming. My opinion comes as someone who did percussion for about 10 years in school. And I know no one that was into the white stripes, so I didn’t hear other peoples opinions. (And I mostly only do the Internet on MetaFilter, was hate on her a thing here?)
posted by LizBoBiz at 5:07 AM on June 4, 2023 [2 favorites]
I am one of those who thinks she’s a crappy drummer
As someone who spent 0 years doing percussion but about 20 years loving The White Stripes, what makes her a crappy drummer?
I’ve heard this “she sucks” criticism over and over throughout the years, but I just don’t get it. The band is singing, guitar, and drums. It all sounds pretty good to me!
posted by paulcole at 5:13 AM on June 4, 2023 [18 favorites]
As someone who spent 0 years doing percussion but about 20 years loving The White Stripes, what makes her a crappy drummer?
I’ve heard this “she sucks” criticism over and over throughout the years, but I just don’t get it. The band is singing, guitar, and drums. It all sounds pretty good to me!
posted by paulcole at 5:13 AM on June 4, 2023 [18 favorites]
She’s on beat. That is the basics you need to be a drummer and that she’s got. But from what I heard on the radio, it’s not complicated at all. It’s very simple, very basic. (Again, I’m happy to be pointed to songs where she shows more skills). I read the linked article, and there is an argument to be made for simplicity, I do get that. And for the white stripes, her sound worked. But if simplicity is all you can do, that’s not a choice.
As a (former) female drummer as well, I was pretty annoyed by her because I thought she was giving other female drummers a bad name. That the dudes would think all we can do is basic shit. And I got enough shit being a girl drummer that I didn’t need a famous one being basic like that. It’s unfortunate that girls still aren’t allowed to be mediocre, we have to be really good. And she wasn’t.
Also to be fair, as a former drummer, I have a critical eye when it comes to all pop music drumming. But I am a sucker for excellent technical skills. Lots of hair bands in the 80s had shitty drummers. Too bad they didn’t get as much shit as Meg White did.
posted by LizBoBiz at 5:30 AM on June 4, 2023 [8 favorites]
As a (former) female drummer as well, I was pretty annoyed by her because I thought she was giving other female drummers a bad name. That the dudes would think all we can do is basic shit. And I got enough shit being a girl drummer that I didn’t need a famous one being basic like that. It’s unfortunate that girls still aren’t allowed to be mediocre, we have to be really good. And she wasn’t.
Also to be fair, as a former drummer, I have a critical eye when it comes to all pop music drumming. But I am a sucker for excellent technical skills. Lots of hair bands in the 80s had shitty drummers. Too bad they didn’t get as much shit as Meg White did.
posted by LizBoBiz at 5:30 AM on June 4, 2023 [8 favorites]
We really don’t need this thread to turn into a rehash of her skills though. I’ll bow out now.
posted by LizBoBiz at 5:31 AM on June 4, 2023 [11 favorites]
posted by LizBoBiz at 5:31 AM on June 4, 2023 [11 favorites]
It should be taught in journalism school
Oh good, after all the stuff over the last few weeks my response when this headline cropped up was just "leave her alone!"
posted by opsin at 5:46 AM on June 4, 2023
Oh good, after all the stuff over the last few weeks my response when this headline cropped up was just "leave her alone!"
posted by opsin at 5:46 AM on June 4, 2023
Complaining that Meg White’s drumming is “basic” is a bit like complaining that the Ramones songs are not very harmonically complicated. Simple is the whole aesthetic concept. Not everybody wants to be. Emerson Lake and Palmer!
posted by neroli at 6:08 AM on June 4, 2023 [70 favorites]
posted by neroli at 6:08 AM on June 4, 2023 [70 favorites]
As a (former) female drummer as well, I was pretty annoyed by her because I thought she was giving other female drummers a bad name. That the dudes would think all we can do is basic shit.
That says a lot more about those dudes' ignorance than it does about Meg's skill.
As you acknowledge, there are a lot of pop and rock musicians out there whose style leans very basic. Few seem to get as much grief over it as Meg has.
I know Jack White's a great guitarist, but a lot of his signature style with the White Stripes was also deliberately, arftully sloppy, messy, noisy, and basic. I don't recall anyone questioning whether it was his choice or a limitation talent.
I'm not in a position to assess Meg's abilities as a drummer. And I don't think it's fair to assess her skills based on the White Stripes' albums, either, as they were such an aesthetically driven band.
posted by synecdoche at 6:19 AM on June 4, 2023 [9 favorites]
That says a lot more about those dudes' ignorance than it does about Meg's skill.
As you acknowledge, there are a lot of pop and rock musicians out there whose style leans very basic. Few seem to get as much grief over it as Meg has.
I know Jack White's a great guitarist, but a lot of his signature style with the White Stripes was also deliberately, arftully sloppy, messy, noisy, and basic. I don't recall anyone questioning whether it was his choice or a limitation talent.
I'm not in a position to assess Meg's abilities as a drummer. And I don't think it's fair to assess her skills based on the White Stripes' albums, either, as they were such an aesthetically driven band.
posted by synecdoche at 6:19 AM on June 4, 2023 [9 favorites]
Not everybody wants to be. Emerson Lake and Palmer!
And thank god for that. Meg is awesome. I accidentally ran into her elbow when she was unloading for a show at a small coffee shop in my hometown back in the DeStijl era. She apologized and I apologized in that awkward way you do. And she seemed like a genuinely nice person. And later on, I watched she and Jack absolutely kill it at the show. The White Stripes wouldn’t be the White Stripes without Meg. And, just my humble opinion here, nothing Jack has done as a solo artist is as good as as what he did with her on drums.
posted by thivaia at 6:21 AM on June 4, 2023 [26 favorites]
And thank god for that. Meg is awesome. I accidentally ran into her elbow when she was unloading for a show at a small coffee shop in my hometown back in the DeStijl era. She apologized and I apologized in that awkward way you do. And she seemed like a genuinely nice person. And later on, I watched she and Jack absolutely kill it at the show. The White Stripes wouldn’t be the White Stripes without Meg. And, just my humble opinion here, nothing Jack has done as a solo artist is as good as as what he did with her on drums.
posted by thivaia at 6:21 AM on June 4, 2023 [26 favorites]
I always heard that Jack taught her how to drum because that’s exactly the style that how he wanted her to drum because that’s what he wanted the White Stripes to sound like. Is that true or not?
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 6:26 AM on June 4, 2023
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 6:26 AM on June 4, 2023
I never expected her to be Bonham or Peart, that wasn't what Jack needed. Just keep the beat and drive the songs forward. She did that with panache. She didn't need to be Bill Bruford on those songs.
White Stripes were very driven by aesthetics and style, by choices Jack thought he had to make. The guy is incredible but there's a lot that he lets get in the way. I've watched It Might Get Loud a few more times than is healthy and it seems to me that Jack has a hard time getting past his own bullshit (unless that's a pose, I could see Jack doing that as well). I recall a scene where he was explaining to the Edge and Page that he wanted it to be difficult, that he wanted there to be hindrances to playing guitar. They nod politely but I read it as "this kid is fucking nuts, just play the goddamn thing".
I've known a lot of choir/theater kids and former music majors. Many, though not all, trip up on various popular music forms. The vocals are too rough, instrumentation is not precise, distortion on a guitar drives them up the wall, etc. Jazz music is a different nightmare because improvisation is a talent that is a strange concept to someone who masters a piece of complex music from a sheet. Meg would be the antithesis to a percussionist. Then again, so would John Henry Bonham.
posted by Ber at 6:45 AM on June 4, 2023 [4 favorites]
White Stripes were very driven by aesthetics and style, by choices Jack thought he had to make. The guy is incredible but there's a lot that he lets get in the way. I've watched It Might Get Loud a few more times than is healthy and it seems to me that Jack has a hard time getting past his own bullshit (unless that's a pose, I could see Jack doing that as well). I recall a scene where he was explaining to the Edge and Page that he wanted it to be difficult, that he wanted there to be hindrances to playing guitar. They nod politely but I read it as "this kid is fucking nuts, just play the goddamn thing".
I've known a lot of choir/theater kids and former music majors. Many, though not all, trip up on various popular music forms. The vocals are too rough, instrumentation is not precise, distortion on a guitar drives them up the wall, etc. Jazz music is a different nightmare because improvisation is a talent that is a strange concept to someone who masters a piece of complex music from a sheet. Meg would be the antithesis to a percussionist. Then again, so would John Henry Bonham.
posted by Ber at 6:45 AM on June 4, 2023 [4 favorites]
Seven Nation Army is like putting a stethoscope to the molten core of the planet to hear its heart beating. It would not be improved by flourishes.
posted by Horace Rumpole at 6:51 AM on June 4, 2023 [63 favorites]
posted by Horace Rumpole at 6:51 AM on June 4, 2023 [63 favorites]
Yeah, going to put my Salieri hat on and say “too many notes!”* to the notion that it could be improved by more.
* beats
posted by Artw at 7:10 AM on June 4, 2023 [4 favorites]
* beats
posted by Artw at 7:10 AM on June 4, 2023 [4 favorites]
As a drummer - she's great! She fit the bill for the band perfectly. I was fortunate enough to see them on tour before anyone (including me) knew anything about them. It was a little rock club in Richmond Va & they were just a curious rock duo (still kids really) who killed it. Preforming dressed like peppermint candies. Him in red flares and a white tee-shirt, her long black hair bobbing to the beat behind the drums. It wasn't until maybe a year later when they blew up that I connected the dots, er, stripes.
Don't give a drummer any guff for "allowing the space" in any music. It's much harder to under play than to over do it.
posted by djseafood at 7:19 AM on June 4, 2023 [20 favorites]
Don't give a drummer any guff for "allowing the space" in any music. It's much harder to under play than to over do it.
posted by djseafood at 7:19 AM on June 4, 2023 [20 favorites]
I bristled at the criticism of her drumming. She did exactly what the music required, which is what great musicians do. She was half of a very successful band, making music that people loved and still love to this day.
People loved to bag on Dave Grohl when Nirvana was huge for being big, dumb and simplistic. People endlessly complained about Ringo's work in the Beatles for being basic. Their music is iconic and those drummers were a key part of creating it.
I idolize the drum virtuosos as much as anyone: John Bonham, Stewart Copeland, Tim Herb Alexander, Danny Carey, etc. but there are many forms of musical expression. Different people have different things they want to say, and different ways of saying them. It can be as simple or as complicated as you want, as long as it moves people.
And on another note, if she doesn't want to do interviews then more power to her.
posted by DrumsIntheDeep at 7:58 AM on June 4, 2023 [10 favorites]
People loved to bag on Dave Grohl when Nirvana was huge for being big, dumb and simplistic. People endlessly complained about Ringo's work in the Beatles for being basic. Their music is iconic and those drummers were a key part of creating it.
I idolize the drum virtuosos as much as anyone: John Bonham, Stewart Copeland, Tim Herb Alexander, Danny Carey, etc. but there are many forms of musical expression. Different people have different things they want to say, and different ways of saying them. It can be as simple or as complicated as you want, as long as it moves people.
And on another note, if she doesn't want to do interviews then more power to her.
posted by DrumsIntheDeep at 7:58 AM on June 4, 2023 [10 favorites]
It's strangely important to me that Meg White is Doing Ok. I don't know why.
posted by Hermione Dies at 8:27 AM on June 4, 2023 [26 favorites]
posted by Hermione Dies at 8:27 AM on June 4, 2023 [26 favorites]
I read the linked article, and there is an argument to be made for simplicity, I do get that. And for the white stripes, her sound worked. But if simplicity is all you can do, that’s not a choice.
I’ve played in bands for nearly twenty years and I think finding a sound that works is by far the most difficult thing to do. How many rock bands are plagued by a lead guitarist who is constantly trying to force themselves on the rest of the band to show their technical prowess?
And I’ve found the people who hate on her have a general “I could do that and more” vibe to them, all the while completely ignoring that if they were in her position - they’d probably not have landed on the simplicity that made the sound so good. She may have chosen to do less than what she was capable of for the sake of the sound. They ignore the part that is actually hardest - finding the sound - and post-production just focus on how easy it would be to replicate it.
We don’t know the extent of what Meg White can do, just what she did do in public, and with the White Stripes what she did was create remarkable music. The point of the music is to move you and by that measure - she’s a fabulous drummer.
posted by openhearted at 8:52 AM on June 4, 2023 [28 favorites]
I’ve played in bands for nearly twenty years and I think finding a sound that works is by far the most difficult thing to do. How many rock bands are plagued by a lead guitarist who is constantly trying to force themselves on the rest of the band to show their technical prowess?
And I’ve found the people who hate on her have a general “I could do that and more” vibe to them, all the while completely ignoring that if they were in her position - they’d probably not have landed on the simplicity that made the sound so good. She may have chosen to do less than what she was capable of for the sake of the sound. They ignore the part that is actually hardest - finding the sound - and post-production just focus on how easy it would be to replicate it.
We don’t know the extent of what Meg White can do, just what she did do in public, and with the White Stripes what she did was create remarkable music. The point of the music is to move you and by that measure - she’s a fabulous drummer.
posted by openhearted at 8:52 AM on June 4, 2023 [28 favorites]
That mega-fueled rocket to fame can be a ride that really affects you. I think especially if you aren't really expecting it and I don't think that White Stripes were really trying to swing for the fences. I'm glad she's doing okay, and bravo to her for declining to answer even second- or third-hand questions. She'll emerge when she's ready, on her terms, if she emerges at all.
posted by hippybear at 8:53 AM on June 4, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by hippybear at 8:53 AM on June 4, 2023 [1 favorite]
I’ve played in bands for nearly twenty years and I think finding a sound that works is by far the most difficult thing to do. How many rock bands are plagued by a lead guitarist who is constantly trying to force themselves on the rest of the band to show their technical prowess?
Tony Banks, when interviewed about early Genesis days, talked about how they'd be working on a song and they'd come to a section where Peter would start singing and Tony would be thinking to himself "oh, this was supposed to be more of my keyboard solo". I mean, Tony got plenty of time to shine in that band, but I think about that a lot.
posted by hippybear at 8:54 AM on June 4, 2023
Tony Banks, when interviewed about early Genesis days, talked about how they'd be working on a song and they'd come to a section where Peter would start singing and Tony would be thinking to himself "oh, this was supposed to be more of my keyboard solo". I mean, Tony got plenty of time to shine in that band, but I think about that a lot.
posted by hippybear at 8:54 AM on June 4, 2023
if simplicity is all you can do, that’s not a choice.
Depends. If simplicity is what somebody's put all of their ten thousand hours into, then it absolutely is a choice.
Also, it's been my experience that musicians who have put their ten thousand hours into pursuing some particular kind of mastery can be less able to discern mastery of other kinds than an audience with less training, simply because they've spent so much time and effort on polishing the kinds of skills that they find interesting that now that kind of skill is all they're listening for.
The only test applicable to music that comes even close to allowing different kinds of music to be ranked in anything like a valuable way is this: how moved were you?
I play drums. Meg White's playing consistently moves me. I wish I could do half of what I can hear her doing. But it's not how I spend my practice time, so I probably never will.
posted by flabdablet at 8:55 AM on June 4, 2023 [21 favorites]
Depends. If simplicity is what somebody's put all of their ten thousand hours into, then it absolutely is a choice.
Also, it's been my experience that musicians who have put their ten thousand hours into pursuing some particular kind of mastery can be less able to discern mastery of other kinds than an audience with less training, simply because they've spent so much time and effort on polishing the kinds of skills that they find interesting that now that kind of skill is all they're listening for.
The only test applicable to music that comes even close to allowing different kinds of music to be ranked in anything like a valuable way is this: how moved were you?
I play drums. Meg White's playing consistently moves me. I wish I could do half of what I can hear her doing. But it's not how I spend my practice time, so I probably never will.
posted by flabdablet at 8:55 AM on June 4, 2023 [21 favorites]
Imagine how good the White Stripes could have been, if only they'd had Kenny G on sax.
posted by Hermione Dies at 9:23 AM on June 4, 2023 [17 favorites]
posted by Hermione Dies at 9:23 AM on June 4, 2023 [17 favorites]
nothing Jack has done as a solo artist is as good as as what he did with her on drums.
Absolutely. Like the article implied, her steady drumming tempered his maniacal playing/ singing that is now left unbridled and brilliant only a fraction of the time.
posted by BlunderingArtist at 9:28 AM on June 4, 2023 [7 favorites]
Absolutely. Like the article implied, her steady drumming tempered his maniacal playing/ singing that is now left unbridled and brilliant only a fraction of the time.
posted by BlunderingArtist at 9:28 AM on June 4, 2023 [7 favorites]
Meg's drumming is exactly right for The White Stripes.
posted by betweenthebars at 10:02 AM on June 4, 2023 [6 favorites]
posted by betweenthebars at 10:02 AM on June 4, 2023 [6 favorites]
Meg White was the perfect drummer for the White Stripes. Jack White's had other musical ventures, but the White Stripes as a band is Jack and Meg and that's reason enough to respect her as a drummer.
posted by St. Oops at 10:03 AM on June 4, 2023 [6 favorites]
posted by St. Oops at 10:03 AM on June 4, 2023 [6 favorites]
At the risk of creating a false-dichotomy:
I was cursed to learn how to play an instrument in the pseudo-muso era, when rockers aspired to jazz and classical virtuosity, and my mind reflexively leaps to pointless "progressive" movements and embellishments that at best hint at "huh, that's...interesting?" I was surrounded by that, till I learned of other ways.
I can only dream of playing something as direct, uncomplicated, and musically confident as MW, something that simply moves people. I believe hers is a deeply admirable (not to mention aesthetically-valid) artistic ability.
posted by Claude Hoeper at 10:29 AM on June 4, 2023 [2 favorites]
I was cursed to learn how to play an instrument in the pseudo-muso era, when rockers aspired to jazz and classical virtuosity, and my mind reflexively leaps to pointless "progressive" movements and embellishments that at best hint at "huh, that's...interesting?" I was surrounded by that, till I learned of other ways.
I can only dream of playing something as direct, uncomplicated, and musically confident as MW, something that simply moves people. I believe hers is a deeply admirable (not to mention aesthetically-valid) artistic ability.
posted by Claude Hoeper at 10:29 AM on June 4, 2023 [2 favorites]
To quote TFA:
posted by Acey at 10:59 AM on June 4, 2023 [16 favorites]
“Don’t get me started,” says Kid Congo Powers of legendary bands like the Gun Club and the Cramps. “It’s just sexist. People have been saying the whole time that her drumming was simplistic, but the band was just guitar and drums. The music they’re mining is simple music, and she’s playing it exactly right and exactly great.”Haters can go to hell.
posted by Acey at 10:59 AM on June 4, 2023 [16 favorites]
She’s on beat. That is the basics you need to be a drummer and that she’s got.
Arguably, what makes her a good drummer and why her drumming works so well in context is that she isn't quite on beat.
posted by ssg at 11:21 AM on June 4, 2023 [5 favorites]
Arguably, what makes her a good drummer and why her drumming works so well in context is that she isn't quite on beat.
posted by ssg at 11:21 AM on June 4, 2023 [5 favorites]
Some drummers who have moved me, in no particular order: Meg White, Mo Tucker, Ringo Starr, Nick Mason, Ian Paice, John Bonham, Mitch Mitchell, Alan White, Carl Pannuzzo, Dave Grohl, Go-Go Ray, Nandi Bushell, Nick Saloman, Yoyoka Soma, Kenzo from 88Kasyo Junrei, Michael Shrieve, Terry Bozzio, Joe Travers, Jim White, Barriemore Barlow, Ginger Baker, Reuben Gingrich, Bernard Purdie and so many more.
These people are all over the map, stylistically speaking, but they all have one thing in common: within six bars I know who I'm listening to.
she isn't quite on beat
and the thing about that is, it's the beat that's wrong, not her.
posted by flabdablet at 11:30 AM on June 4, 2023 [13 favorites]
These people are all over the map, stylistically speaking, but they all have one thing in common: within six bars I know who I'm listening to.
she isn't quite on beat
and the thing about that is, it's the beat that's wrong, not her.
posted by flabdablet at 11:30 AM on June 4, 2023 [13 favorites]
I was cursed to learn how to play an instrument in the pseudo-muso era, when rockers aspired to jazz and classical virtuosity
Neil Peart famously went and found himself a drum teacher after a couple of decades of being in a gigantic band and lauded as the best drummer ever.
Adam Clayton also went and found a bass teacher after many years of success with his band.
posted by hippybear at 11:43 AM on June 4, 2023 [3 favorites]
Neil Peart famously went and found himself a drum teacher after a couple of decades of being in a gigantic band and lauded as the best drummer ever.
Adam Clayton also went and found a bass teacher after many years of success with his band.
posted by hippybear at 11:43 AM on June 4, 2023 [3 favorites]
Being the drummer, she makes the beat. If anyone is off beat in that duo, it’s Jack.
posted by LizBoBiz at 11:46 AM on June 4, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by LizBoBiz at 11:46 AM on June 4, 2023 [4 favorites]
Neil Peart famously went and found himself a drum teacher after a couple of decades of being in a gigantic band and lauded as the best drummer ever.
Adam Clayton also went and found a bass teacher after many years of success with his band.
There’s lots of wonderful complicated music and conventional musicianship, I just think a hierarchical one-size-fits-all definition of “good” musicianship excludes far too many great music-makers.
posted by Claude Hoeper at 12:01 PM on June 4, 2023 [6 favorites]
Adam Clayton also went and found a bass teacher after many years of success with his band.
There’s lots of wonderful complicated music and conventional musicianship, I just think a hierarchical one-size-fits-all definition of “good” musicianship excludes far too many great music-makers.
posted by Claude Hoeper at 12:01 PM on June 4, 2023 [6 favorites]
I listened to the White Stripes for years before I encountered the internet discourse around Meg's drumming and before that it had never occured to me that anyone wouldn't love her work.
posted by octothorpe at 12:04 PM on June 4, 2023 [6 favorites]
posted by octothorpe at 12:04 PM on June 4, 2023 [6 favorites]
I'm in a weird place re: The White Stripes. I've been aware of them since their debut, and recognize Jack before his name is announced whenever he shows up on TV (his American Pickers episode, for instance). But until I read this (really good) article about three days ago, I'd never actually listened to them. I'm not a fan of their sound, though within the space of {rock sounds I don't hate but also don't like} I think they do it well. I'm smart enough to know that any rock drumming is hard, and I think Amy is a boss.
posted by lhauser at 12:35 PM on June 4, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by lhauser at 12:35 PM on June 4, 2023 [2 favorites]
I think Amy is a boss
I am choosing to be impressed with this typo as an oblique reference to the March sisters as opposed to a misspelling of Meg.
posted by Joey Michaels at 1:09 PM on June 4, 2023 [7 favorites]
I am choosing to be impressed with this typo as an oblique reference to the March sisters as opposed to a misspelling of Meg.
posted by Joey Michaels at 1:09 PM on June 4, 2023 [7 favorites]
Was it Meg or Amy who heard Beth calling but can't come home right now 'cause me and the band are playin'....
posted by hippybear at 1:18 PM on June 4, 2023 [7 favorites]
posted by hippybear at 1:18 PM on June 4, 2023 [7 favorites]
Being the drummer, she makes the beat
The best cook happens when people who trust each other, and can all hear each other, play together without leadership or click tracks and nobody feels any pull away from Right Now when somebody's playing - even their own - visits unanticipated places.
Repetition's not the only thing that legitimizes. Flow does too.
posted by flabdablet at 1:34 PM on June 4, 2023 [1 favorite]
The best cook happens when people who trust each other, and can all hear each other, play together without leadership or click tracks and nobody feels any pull away from Right Now when somebody's playing - even their own - visits unanticipated places.
Repetition's not the only thing that legitimizes. Flow does too.
posted by flabdablet at 1:34 PM on June 4, 2023 [1 favorite]
The whole conversation about Meg White's drumming skills is stupid. Would "Seven Nation Army" be a better song if Meg White had been a better drummer? That is a nonsense question. You can't talk about it as if you've never heard "Seven Nation Army," as if any other version wouldn't be a derivative response to and conversation with what the White Stripes already did.
Better in what sense? You can define "better" in a way that there are "better" drummers than Neil Peart or John Bonham. Would Rush songs or Zeppelin songs be "better" with a "better" drummer? You can define your terms so that you could technically have a conversation about this topic, but I don't think you'd actually be talking about anything significant to why Rush or Zeppelin or the White Stripes are popular or interesting or influential or worth listening to.
Is "Seven Nation Army" a better song if we imagine Meg White could have played something more difficult but chose not to? The whole thing is ridiculous.
posted by straight at 1:42 PM on June 4, 2023 [11 favorites]
Better in what sense? You can define "better" in a way that there are "better" drummers than Neil Peart or John Bonham. Would Rush songs or Zeppelin songs be "better" with a "better" drummer? You can define your terms so that you could technically have a conversation about this topic, but I don't think you'd actually be talking about anything significant to why Rush or Zeppelin or the White Stripes are popular or interesting or influential or worth listening to.
Is "Seven Nation Army" a better song if we imagine Meg White could have played something more difficult but chose not to? The whole thing is ridiculous.
posted by straight at 1:42 PM on June 4, 2023 [11 favorites]
Meg White wasn't there to do anything else but White Stripes drumming, which she did extremely well. Never listened to them that much but that's what I thought when I did hear their songs.
Randomly, I saw Rush in Grade 9, maybe 1980, and I fell asleep during the epic drum solo. I wish I had actually seen the Stripes in their prime; I can't imagine falling asleep to them live.
posted by Phlegmco(tm) at 1:46 PM on June 4, 2023 [2 favorites]
Randomly, I saw Rush in Grade 9, maybe 1980, and I fell asleep during the epic drum solo. I wish I had actually seen the Stripes in their prime; I can't imagine falling asleep to them live.
posted by Phlegmco(tm) at 1:46 PM on June 4, 2023 [2 favorites]
Arguably, what makes her a good drummer and why her drumming works so well in context is that she isn't quite on beat.
The Pudding: We break down J Dilla's signature off-beat timefeel.
posted by 1970s Antihero at 1:56 PM on June 4, 2023 [2 favorites]
The Pudding: We break down J Dilla's signature off-beat timefeel.
posted by 1970s Antihero at 1:56 PM on June 4, 2023 [2 favorites]
The machinery of fame finds it hard to believe that somebody could achieve fame, and find themselves disinterested in the work of feeding and maintaining their fame. And yet it happens.
posted by egypturnash at 2:10 PM on June 4, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by egypturnash at 2:10 PM on June 4, 2023 [2 favorites]
Interesting essay. Never heard of her or listened to that band, but a good essay, kind of a mini "Meg white has a cold."
posted by davidmsc at 2:43 PM on June 4, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by davidmsc at 2:43 PM on June 4, 2023 [4 favorites]
I remember reading that Bill Berry refused to play drums on an R.E.M. song because he thought the part was "stupid" -- though I'm having trouble finding that right now. I think it was the Untitled track on Green.
Now, by the time I'd read that I'd listened to the song many, many times. I love the entire album, and pretty much all of R.E.M.'s catalog up to Monster. It never even once occurred to me that there was anything wrong with the drums on that song.
Listening critically I guess I can see how somebody with Bill Berry's chops might not like the drum part. I also still uncritically love the song. I can't think of a way that the song would have been improved with a different drum part (and clearly he didn't suggest one). Because my relationship with the song, any song, has so much more to do with the overall feel of the song and whether it makes my ears happy.
There are definitely songs where the drums/percussion knock my socks off. But that's usually something I pick up on long after I've fallen in love with the song. It's like "oh, wow, that sounds like they're doing something really unusual or complicated, maybe that's why this song grew on me so much!"
The whole point of rock music is the feel, and you have lots of technical virtuosos that produce uninspiring dreck and lots of people who are pushing the limits of their technical ability that produce songs and albums that have stood up for decades.
Hell, you have some great music backed by rudimentary drum machines. "Heart of Glass" by Blondie uses a pretty hacky beat from a 70s drum machine, but the song is fucking awesome and I'm not sure it'd be improved by a better drummer. I could go on...
All that to say, count me in as a Meg White fan. Her work with the White Stripes makes my ears happy. It pumps me up, makes me tap my feet. Asking for more than that seems damned silly.
posted by jzb at 2:50 PM on June 4, 2023 [2 favorites]
Now, by the time I'd read that I'd listened to the song many, many times. I love the entire album, and pretty much all of R.E.M.'s catalog up to Monster. It never even once occurred to me that there was anything wrong with the drums on that song.
Listening critically I guess I can see how somebody with Bill Berry's chops might not like the drum part. I also still uncritically love the song. I can't think of a way that the song would have been improved with a different drum part (and clearly he didn't suggest one). Because my relationship with the song, any song, has so much more to do with the overall feel of the song and whether it makes my ears happy.
There are definitely songs where the drums/percussion knock my socks off. But that's usually something I pick up on long after I've fallen in love with the song. It's like "oh, wow, that sounds like they're doing something really unusual or complicated, maybe that's why this song grew on me so much!"
The whole point of rock music is the feel, and you have lots of technical virtuosos that produce uninspiring dreck and lots of people who are pushing the limits of their technical ability that produce songs and albums that have stood up for decades.
Hell, you have some great music backed by rudimentary drum machines. "Heart of Glass" by Blondie uses a pretty hacky beat from a 70s drum machine, but the song is fucking awesome and I'm not sure it'd be improved by a better drummer. I could go on...
All that to say, count me in as a Meg White fan. Her work with the White Stripes makes my ears happy. It pumps me up, makes me tap my feet. Asking for more than that seems damned silly.
posted by jzb at 2:50 PM on June 4, 2023 [2 favorites]
I remember seeing a Kim Deal interview where she was explaining how she just played the notes and didn't embellish or overplay because that was all that was needed.
posted by phigmov at 2:53 PM on June 4, 2023 [11 favorites]
posted by phigmov at 2:53 PM on June 4, 2023 [11 favorites]
I remember Stewart Copeland saying that "boom bap boom bap" was the hardest drum beat to sustain. I mean she might not make the Steely Dan audition but it sounds awesome in context. It's a symbiosis that falls apart if you examine it too closely.
15 Minutes of Meg White
posted by credulous at 3:28 PM on June 4, 2023 [1 favorite]
15 Minutes of Meg White
posted by credulous at 3:28 PM on June 4, 2023 [1 favorite]
Buddy Rich could not have set the heartbeat of "Seven Nation Army". Sometimes rock is just what it needs to be.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 3:32 PM on June 4, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 3:32 PM on June 4, 2023 [5 favorites]
No wonder I could never figure out if they were married or siblings.
posted by bendy at 4:28 PM on June 4, 2023
posted by bendy at 4:28 PM on June 4, 2023
hipster story, Madison WI, summer 2000, my musician housemate & I are drinking PBRs on the porch of some guy who lived across the street from a park where they're having a big outdoor concert
musician housemate points towards some people on a stage, says "See that? That's the White Stripes, they're gonna be big, they're gonna be really, really big"
well he was always saying shit like that or namedropping Steve Albini or whatever, and I couldn't really distinguish their sound from all the other shit going on in the park, so I just said "okay" or "huh" or something and put my cigarette out on an empty beer can
was very surprised when they did, in fact, get really really big
anyway I'm on team Meg Is Perfectly Drumming Like Those Songs (Which Are S-Tier Rock Songs) Need And A Dude In Her Position Would Get Way Less Shit About It
posted by taquito sunrise at 5:07 PM on June 4, 2023 [6 favorites]
musician housemate points towards some people on a stage, says "See that? That's the White Stripes, they're gonna be big, they're gonna be really, really big"
well he was always saying shit like that or namedropping Steve Albini or whatever, and I couldn't really distinguish their sound from all the other shit going on in the park, so I just said "okay" or "huh" or something and put my cigarette out on an empty beer can
was very surprised when they did, in fact, get really really big
anyway I'm on team Meg Is Perfectly Drumming Like Those Songs (Which Are S-Tier Rock Songs) Need And A Dude In Her Position Would Get Way Less Shit About It
posted by taquito sunrise at 5:07 PM on June 4, 2023 [6 favorites]
Meg White is probably the most famous person to go to my high school and she rules. I saw the white stripes multiple times during their heyday and they were amazing every time. The first time I saw them I think Jack White closed out the show by saying “I’m Jack White and this is my sister Meg. I am a robot, but she is human.” What else did she need to be? Anyway, I’m mad that hating on her is a thing but I loved this article.
posted by Tesseractive at 5:29 PM on June 4, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by Tesseractive at 5:29 PM on June 4, 2023 [3 favorites]
> "Better in what sense?"
The army would have had more nations?
posted by kyrademon at 5:48 PM on June 4, 2023 [11 favorites]
The army would have had more nations?
posted by kyrademon at 5:48 PM on June 4, 2023 [11 favorites]
"Your work is ingenious. It's quality work. And there are simply too many nations, that's all. Just cut a few and it will be perfect."
posted by credulous at 5:50 PM on June 4, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by credulous at 5:50 PM on June 4, 2023 [4 favorites]
Is Meg White the JD Salinger of drummers?
posted by oldnumberseven at 6:06 PM on June 4, 2023
posted by oldnumberseven at 6:06 PM on June 4, 2023
Was it Meg or Amy who heard Beth calling but can't come home right now 'cause me and the band are playin'...
I went to women’s college in the early mid 90s, so I’ve already been part of numerous conversations about how this breaks down and I think it was generally:
Jo: Guitar/vocals
Meg: Bass
Beth: Keyboards (natch)
Amy: drums, but will ultimately be end up fronting her own much more successful band
Laurie: Tambourine/back-up dancer/ probable reason why the band breaks up
posted by thivaia at 6:55 PM on June 4, 2023 [13 favorites]
I went to women’s college in the early mid 90s, so I’ve already been part of numerous conversations about how this breaks down and I think it was generally:
Jo: Guitar/vocals
Meg: Bass
Beth: Keyboards (natch)
Amy: drums, but will ultimately be end up fronting her own much more successful band
Laurie: Tambourine/back-up dancer/ probable reason why the band breaks up
posted by thivaia at 6:55 PM on June 4, 2023 [13 favorites]
everyone blames Laurie for the breakup but really it's Jo & Amy fighting about whether their musical vision involves more prog or more riot grrrrl
posted by taquito sunrise at 7:58 PM on June 4, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by taquito sunrise at 7:58 PM on June 4, 2023 [5 favorites]
I thought that was Jo and Blair.
posted by hippybear at 8:01 PM on June 4, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by hippybear at 8:01 PM on June 4, 2023 [4 favorites]
Bernard Purdie
"I'm gonna splain it to you. Remember that word: splain. Not explain. I'm gonna splain you what the Purdie shuffle is all about. It's gonna surprise you."
posted by Pyrogenesis at 11:19 PM on June 4, 2023 [1 favorite]
"I'm gonna splain it to you. Remember that word: splain. Not explain. I'm gonna splain you what the Purdie shuffle is all about. It's gonna surprise you."
posted by Pyrogenesis at 11:19 PM on June 4, 2023 [1 favorite]
Somewhere along the way I got a whiff of the whole 'Meg White isn't good, in fact, she's kinda shit...' and I'm not a drummer so I figured I just couldn't hear it because I thought she rocked. One of my kids has been super into the White Stripes (which I fully endorse) for about five years now, so I've spent a good amount of time listening to their whole catalogue (on top of since first hearing it) and after long, long, long hours listening to them I have to say "No." Your opinion about Meg White is wrong. Meg White is a brilliant drummer. She is, really, at least 60% of why I like the White Stripes - in the same way that I like Led Zeppelin because I like John Bonham. Or Fela Kuti for Tony Allen. It is the thing the music is built on and out of and it's pure and fine. Jack White's playing is great, no doubt, but it's frosting (glorious frosting, but frosting).
posted by From Bklyn at 12:10 AM on June 5, 2023 [7 favorites]
posted by From Bklyn at 12:10 AM on June 5, 2023 [7 favorites]
Virtuosos will always view their art
in the context of virtuosity
more than heart.
Many Metalheads love a solo that "shreds" because it's hard to play, even if I don't personally find any emotional connection to all the beedledebeedledebeedledeechuggachuggascreeee that comes out. Lots of Punks like a song that's "honest" in its inexpensive scratchy recording of someone growling off-key to a four-chord trick run through an amp that's 90% mains hum, even though it hurts my ears and drives my anxiety up. I like that music can be mathematics and soul, in one piece!
I understand the resistance to stuff that becomes popular. The outre virtuoso or outsider-art noise aren't going to make it through the labels system to Make It Big. And the expertise-lovers and authenticity-lovers seem worried we'll end up in a universe of nothing but AI-generated Schlagermusik if anyone admits that music can be good somewhere in the middle.
I don't know what really makes virtuosity in drumming. I remain astonished by the drumming in Dark Side of The Moon, as well as Life On Planet Groove, but it's just vibes to me. I know Art Blakey was a genius, but couldn't explain why even after listening to all my dad's LPs (something something rimrolls?). But one thing I love was the extremely good-natured humour about DJ's metronome-like mechanical drumming in the comments of this Tiny Desk concert video. The jokes are all just "he's perfectly on beat" over and over, and that's great!
posted by rum-soaked space hobo at 12:48 AM on June 5, 2023
in the context of virtuosity
more than heart.
Many Metalheads love a solo that "shreds" because it's hard to play, even if I don't personally find any emotional connection to all the beedledebeedledebeedledeechuggachuggascreeee that comes out. Lots of Punks like a song that's "honest" in its inexpensive scratchy recording of someone growling off-key to a four-chord trick run through an amp that's 90% mains hum, even though it hurts my ears and drives my anxiety up. I like that music can be mathematics and soul, in one piece!
I understand the resistance to stuff that becomes popular. The outre virtuoso or outsider-art noise aren't going to make it through the labels system to Make It Big. And the expertise-lovers and authenticity-lovers seem worried we'll end up in a universe of nothing but AI-generated Schlagermusik if anyone admits that music can be good somewhere in the middle.
I don't know what really makes virtuosity in drumming. I remain astonished by the drumming in Dark Side of The Moon, as well as Life On Planet Groove, but it's just vibes to me. I know Art Blakey was a genius, but couldn't explain why even after listening to all my dad's LPs (something something rimrolls?). But one thing I love was the extremely good-natured humour about DJ's metronome-like mechanical drumming in the comments of this Tiny Desk concert video. The jokes are all just "he's perfectly on beat" over and over, and that's great!
posted by rum-soaked space hobo at 12:48 AM on June 5, 2023
Nick Mason accidentally flinging his drumstick away - manages to hide it with flashy stuff, mind.
posted by Artw at 1:14 AM on June 5, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by Artw at 1:14 AM on June 5, 2023 [1 favorite]
Drumsticks are all very well, but Carl (linked upthread) loses an entire snare drum, and if you weren't watching the video you'd be hard pressed to hear where it happens.
posted by flabdablet at 3:16 AM on June 5, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by flabdablet at 3:16 AM on June 5, 2023 [1 favorite]
Discovered them honestly, opening for Boss Hogg in the early aughts. I defy anyone to see them live and say it wasn't pure magic.
posted by whuppy at 6:44 AM on June 5, 2023
posted by whuppy at 6:44 AM on June 5, 2023
This is a tangent, but this comment upthread caught me up short:
People endlessly complained about Ringo's work in the Beatles for being basic.
....There were actually people at one time complaining Ringo was too basic?
...Actually, something I saw when Ringo was inducted into the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame as a solo artist would apply in both cases here. They pre-taped a bit with a bunch of other drummers having a go on Ringo's kit and discussing his influence on their own work. And at one point Dave Grohl (among others) beats out the drum part for "Come Together", the intro feeding into the steady beat that underscored the singing; and then Dave made the observation that "if you're a drummer and you just do this" - and here he beat out just the part for the singing - "and have people dancing, you're a fucking badass."
Meg was even simpler with "Seven Nation Army", but damned if people don't dance to that.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 7:04 AM on June 5, 2023 [4 favorites]
People endlessly complained about Ringo's work in the Beatles for being basic.
....There were actually people at one time complaining Ringo was too basic?
...Actually, something I saw when Ringo was inducted into the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame as a solo artist would apply in both cases here. They pre-taped a bit with a bunch of other drummers having a go on Ringo's kit and discussing his influence on their own work. And at one point Dave Grohl (among others) beats out the drum part for "Come Together", the intro feeding into the steady beat that underscored the singing; and then Dave made the observation that "if you're a drummer and you just do this" - and here he beat out just the part for the singing - "and have people dancing, you're a fucking badass."
Meg was even simpler with "Seven Nation Army", but damned if people don't dance to that.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 7:04 AM on June 5, 2023 [4 favorites]
Meg was even simpler with "Seven Nation Army", but damned if people don't dance to that.
Do people dance to Come Together? I'm not sure I'd agree they do. But then again, Dave Grohl is the posterchild for "can play different stuff, some of which might be more complex, but just doesn't want to" considering the Foo Fighters output over the past 20 years. If he can do it for 20, Meg White can do it for like 6 or however long they were around.
posted by The_Vegetables at 9:14 AM on June 5, 2023
Do people dance to Come Together? I'm not sure I'd agree they do. But then again, Dave Grohl is the posterchild for "can play different stuff, some of which might be more complex, but just doesn't want to" considering the Foo Fighters output over the past 20 years. If he can do it for 20, Meg White can do it for like 6 or however long they were around.
posted by The_Vegetables at 9:14 AM on June 5, 2023
I think this article is excellent, and I was about to make a double post of it.
The title was going to be 'I'm quiet. What can I say?'
posted by box at 9:18 AM on June 5, 2023 [4 favorites]
The title was going to be 'I'm quiet. What can I say?'
posted by box at 9:18 AM on June 5, 2023 [4 favorites]
Getting back to the article, I loved and agree with this:
It’s not like she’s living on a tropical island and no one sees or talks to her or anything like that. But her current operational way forward—this media blackout—is fucking badass, and it’s rock ’n’ roll.”
posted by straight at 1:31 PM on June 5, 2023 [4 favorites]
It’s not like she’s living on a tropical island and no one sees or talks to her or anything like that. But her current operational way forward—this media blackout—is fucking badass, and it’s rock ’n’ roll.”
posted by straight at 1:31 PM on June 5, 2023 [4 favorites]
She’s the best. And she kept Jack in check and would not allow him to do things that weren’t cool. Jack has admitted that Meg put the kibosh on several of his (dumb) ideas.
posted by elvissinatra at 5:31 PM on June 6, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by elvissinatra at 5:31 PM on June 6, 2023 [1 favorite]
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Thanks Meg, for that.
posted by allium cepa at 2:27 AM on June 4, 2023 [9 favorites]