Israel Suspected in Lebanon Pager Attack
September 17, 2024 4:04 PM Subscribe
Israel is suspected in a massive coordinated attack of exploding pagers that left at least 9 dead and 2800 casualties in Lebanon.
Brings a whole new meaning to 'stop blowing up my phone'.
Has the nature of the exlplosions been confirmed, i.e. some kind of battery overload vs implanted explosive?
posted by zaixfeep at 4:27 PM on September 17 [5 favorites]
Has the nature of the exlplosions been confirmed, i.e. some kind of battery overload vs implanted explosive?
posted by zaixfeep at 4:27 PM on September 17 [5 favorites]
The linked article says that no one knows yet. Well, no one that's talking.
posted by GenjiandProust at 4:32 PM on September 17 [3 favorites]
posted by GenjiandProust at 4:32 PM on September 17 [3 favorites]
The New York Times reported that Israel hid explosive material in the Taiwan-made Gold Apollo pagers before they were imported to Lebanon, citing American and other officials briefed on the operation. The material was implanted next to the battery with a switch that could be triggered remotely to detonate.
I have so many questions I don't know where to start.
posted by zardoz at 4:34 PM on September 17 [17 favorites]
I have so many questions I don't know where to start.
posted by zardoz at 4:34 PM on September 17 [17 favorites]
The UN Convention on Certain Conventional Weapons
Prohibits the use of nondetectable anti-personnel mines and their transfer, and prohibits the use of non-self-destructing and non-self-deactivating mines outside fenced, monitored and marked areas. Seeks to limit the indiscriminate damage caused by landmines and requires High Contracting Parties to take all feasible precautions to protect civilians when using these weapons. Amended Protocol II is the only legally-binding instrument which covers Improvised Explosive Devices (IED).posted by achrise at 4:36 PM on September 17 [59 favorites]
PROTOCOL ON PROHIBITIONS OR RESTRICTIONS ON THE USE OF MINES, BOOBY-TRAPS AND OTHER DEVICES AS AMENDED ON 3 MAY 1996
Pagers use tiny batteries; worst-case they’d get hot and start a small fire. From watching the videos, these were bombs, not runaway batteries. The speed of detonation alone is telling, never mind the blast size.
posted by aramaic at 4:38 PM on September 17 [11 favorites]
posted by aramaic at 4:38 PM on September 17 [11 favorites]
One of the articles corrected to say that it was following announcement of a failed assassination attempt on an Israeli official with remote explosive. Flagged for correction.
posted by rubatan at 4:38 PM on September 17 [3 favorites]
posted by rubatan at 4:38 PM on September 17 [3 favorites]
This is indistinguishable from something any terrorist would do. Someone's kid could have been playing with a pager, a pager could have been sitting on a kitchen counter where families were making food. This is unconscionable shit, beyond the pale, absolute grotesquerie. I don't see how this is different from what Ted Kaczynski did.
posted by kittens for breakfast at 4:44 PM on September 17 [95 favorites]
posted by kittens for breakfast at 4:44 PM on September 17 [95 favorites]
The speed of detonation alone is telling, never mind the blast size.
If you could make a regular AAA or coin battery blow up like that at all, about one teenager in six would already know how to do it, the instructions would be on youtube and somebody would already have tried doing it to a cybertruck for the views.
posted by mhoye at 4:45 PM on September 17 [43 favorites]
If you could make a regular AAA or coin battery blow up like that at all, about one teenager in six would already know how to do it, the instructions would be on youtube and somebody would already have tried doing it to a cybertruck for the views.
posted by mhoye at 4:45 PM on September 17 [43 favorites]
NYT is reporting:
According to American and other officials briefed on the attack, Israel hid explosive material in a shipment of Taiwanese-made pagers imported into Lebanon.posted by gwint at 4:53 PM on September 17 [5 favorites]
The explosive material, as little as one or two ounces, was inserted next to the battery in each pager, two of the officials said. The pagers, which Hezbollah had ordered from the Gold Apollo company in Taiwan, had been tampered with before they reached Lebanon, according to some of the officials. According to one official, Israel calculated that the risk of harming people not affiliated with Hezbollah was low, given the size of the explosive.
achrise, these aren't "mines" under the CCW, they're "other devices." The section of Amended Protocol II is probably this one:
"2. It is prohibited to use booby-traps or other devices in the form of apparently harmless portable objects which are specifically designed and constructed to contain explosive material"
posted by 1adam12 at 4:55 PM on September 17 [40 favorites]
"2. It is prohibited to use booby-traps or other devices in the form of apparently harmless portable objects which are specifically designed and constructed to contain explosive material"
posted by 1adam12 at 4:55 PM on September 17 [40 favorites]
The NYT article mentioned by zardoz also notes that the pagers were programmed to beep for several seconds before exploding and that many people had eye injuries (there's a shortage of eye surgeons). The design of this operation appears to be that beeping would cause people to grab and look directly at the pager's display.
posted by Conceptual Nomad at 4:56 PM on September 17 [27 favorites]
posted by Conceptual Nomad at 4:56 PM on September 17 [27 favorites]
>Israel calculated that the risk of harming people not affiliated with Hezbollah was low
I'm gonna go ahead and read that as "the risk of harming anybody they gave one shit about no matter who they were was low".
Also, this is fucking appalling.
posted by Sing Or Swim at 4:56 PM on September 17 [59 favorites]
I'm gonna go ahead and read that as "the risk of harming anybody they gave one shit about no matter who they were was low".
Also, this is fucking appalling.
posted by Sing Or Swim at 4:56 PM on September 17 [59 favorites]
At least one child is dead, according to Lebanon's public health minister quoted in the BBC link:
"But we are seeing among them people who are old or people who are very young, like the child who unfortunately died..."
posted by mediareport at 4:59 PM on September 17 [10 favorites]
"But we are seeing among them people who are old or people who are very young, like the child who unfortunately died..."
posted by mediareport at 4:59 PM on September 17 [10 favorites]
Biden needs to call for Netanyahu to step down. What an absolute fucking disgrace.
posted by kittens for breakfast at 4:59 PM on September 17 [29 favorites]
posted by kittens for breakfast at 4:59 PM on September 17 [29 favorites]
What I don't get is if the Israelis could intercept these pagers and mess with them, wouldn't it have been more useful to put tracking devices or other information gathering tools in there? Or maybe they did that as well.
This action seems designed to make war an inevitability. What a horror.
posted by gwint at 5:04 PM on September 17 [21 favorites]
This action seems designed to make war an inevitability. What a horror.
posted by gwint at 5:04 PM on September 17 [21 favorites]
Odds that the US government helped them with this operation or knew about it in advance?
posted by Gadarene at 5:07 PM on September 17 [13 favorites]
posted by Gadarene at 5:07 PM on September 17 [13 favorites]
FWIW Haaretz [paywalled] is reporting "around 4000" injured: "Eleven people have been killed in near-simultaneous explosions across thousands of pagers in Lebanon, according to the Lebanese Health Ministry. Around 4,000 people were injured, with 400 in serious condition....The Saudi AlHadath television channel reported that hundreds of people were blinded in the blasts."
posted by senor biggles at 5:15 PM on September 17 [15 favorites]
posted by senor biggles at 5:15 PM on September 17 [15 favorites]
This is despicable.
posted by praemunire at 5:19 PM on September 17 [16 favorites]
posted by praemunire at 5:19 PM on September 17 [16 favorites]
The Washington Post article on it opens with a video that has two little girls less than ten feet away from one of these things (they are not injured in the blast). And what I take to be an innocent bystander standing right next to the explosion. It looks indiscriminant to me, particularly when I consider that Israel is not even at war here. Like, maybe the guy with the pager was a bad guy generally, but when the bomb went off, he was just someone buying fruit.
posted by surlyben at 5:19 PM on September 17 [19 favorites]
posted by surlyben at 5:19 PM on September 17 [19 favorites]
At 2:15 in this video you can see the damage the explosive from one pager did to someone's bedroom table, where they'd apparently left it. It made quite a hole.
(Also, thanks to the mod who removed the incorrect part of the post that rubatan mentioned above)
posted by mediareport at 5:19 PM on September 17 [5 favorites]
(Also, thanks to the mod who removed the incorrect part of the post that rubatan mentioned above)
posted by mediareport at 5:19 PM on September 17 [5 favorites]
There's no way Israel's assassins could know where the pager bombs were when they detonated them. I'm sympathetic to Israel's need to defend itself against an asymmetrical terrorist threat. But this action is way beyond the pale of legitimate defense. It is indiscriminate killing.
At least one child, an 8-year-old girl was killed.
posted by Nelson at 5:25 PM on September 17 [21 favorites]
At least one child, an 8-year-old girl was killed.
posted by Nelson at 5:25 PM on September 17 [21 favorites]
Odds that the US government helped them with this operation or knew about it in advance?
I think very unlikely, unless they were warned about it immediately before execution. US strikes against terrorist targets at least attempt to maintain the appearance of minimizing civilian casualties. US intelligence and military are above this kind of rinky-dink operation.
posted by mr_roboto at 5:31 PM on September 17 [5 favorites]
I think very unlikely, unless they were warned about it immediately before execution. US strikes against terrorist targets at least attempt to maintain the appearance of minimizing civilian casualties. US intelligence and military are above this kind of rinky-dink operation.
posted by mr_roboto at 5:31 PM on September 17 [5 favorites]
It looks indiscriminant to me, particularly when I consider that Israel is not even at war here.
These pagers were purchased by Hezbollah and distributed to Hezbollah members. Hezbollah is a Iranian proxy terrorist group. Hezbollah itself claims 2,000+ Israeli casualties from their rocket fire this year. Israel isn't at war with Lebanon; they are at war with Hezbollah. How could there possibly be a more targeted response than small explosives placed in devices distributed only to members of Hezbollah?
posted by cosmic owl at 5:31 PM on September 17 [30 favorites]
These pagers were purchased by Hezbollah and distributed to Hezbollah members. Hezbollah is a Iranian proxy terrorist group. Hezbollah itself claims 2,000+ Israeli casualties from their rocket fire this year. Israel isn't at war with Lebanon; they are at war with Hezbollah. How could there possibly be a more targeted response than small explosives placed in devices distributed only to members of Hezbollah?
posted by cosmic owl at 5:31 PM on September 17 [30 favorites]
What do you suppose Israel did to confirm those hundreds of pagers were only in the hands of Hezbollah fighters when they blew them all up? And not sold, or given away, or borrowed by a child to play with?
Was the 8 year old girl who was killed a Hezbollah fighter?
posted by Nelson at 5:32 PM on September 17 [80 favorites]
Was the 8 year old girl who was killed a Hezbollah fighter?
posted by Nelson at 5:32 PM on September 17 [80 favorites]
I always understood that the ‘good guys’ don’t do this kind of stuff.
cosmic owl, you assume their intel was accurate. From the descriptions of the victims, I’m assuming their intel was flawed at best.
posted by JakeEXTREME at 5:38 PM on September 17 [18 favorites]
cosmic owl, you assume their intel was accurate. From the descriptions of the victims, I’m assuming their intel was flawed at best.
posted by JakeEXTREME at 5:38 PM on September 17 [18 favorites]
distributed only to members of Hezbollah?
is there like a children's membership tier or what? because they evidently murdered a kid.
how is this comment not just terrorism apologetics? in a sick way, it's refreshing, since terrorism is less bad than genocide; however you can still go sell your rogue state child murder boosterism elsewhere.
posted by busted_crayons at 5:40 PM on September 17 [50 favorites]
is there like a children's membership tier or what? because they evidently murdered a kid.
how is this comment not just terrorism apologetics? in a sick way, it's refreshing, since terrorism is less bad than genocide; however you can still go sell your rogue state child murder boosterism elsewhere.
posted by busted_crayons at 5:40 PM on September 17 [50 favorites]
Gift link to the Ha'aretz article senor biggles linked above. It has more details about the casualties in Syria as well:
The New York Times reported that electronic pager devices also exploded in Syria, according to Iran's Tasnim news agency and to Saberin News, an outlet affiliated with the Revolutionary Guards. Saberin reported that seven people were killed in Syria from the blast targeting their devices in the Seyedah Zeinab neighborhood, a Shia stronghold in Damascus.
There's also a map of the 9 different cities where pagers exploded; they appear to have been distributed widely across Lebanon.
Also, from the ABC news article Nelson linked:
A U.S. official said Israel briefed the U.S. on the operation — in which small amounts of explosive secreted in the pagers were detonated — on Tuesday after it was concluded.
posted by mediareport at 5:41 PM on September 17 [7 favorites]
The New York Times reported that electronic pager devices also exploded in Syria, according to Iran's Tasnim news agency and to Saberin News, an outlet affiliated with the Revolutionary Guards. Saberin reported that seven people were killed in Syria from the blast targeting their devices in the Seyedah Zeinab neighborhood, a Shia stronghold in Damascus.
There's also a map of the 9 different cities where pagers exploded; they appear to have been distributed widely across Lebanon.
Also, from the ABC news article Nelson linked:
A U.S. official said Israel briefed the U.S. on the operation — in which small amounts of explosive secreted in the pagers were detonated — on Tuesday after it was concluded.
posted by mediareport at 5:41 PM on September 17 [7 favorites]
How could there possibly be a more targeted response than small explosives placed in devices distributed only to members of Hezbollah?
Use of explosives in devices carried in public by people who happen to be members of Hezbollah may be "targeted" under a broad definition, but it is also indiscriminate, because those targets at the time of detonation could be driving a car, aboard a bus or train, in a public place like a market, surrounded by other people within the blast radius. From the International Committee of the Red Cross:
Rule 12. Indiscriminate attacks are those:
a) which are not directed at a specific military objective;
(b) which employ a method or means of combat which cannot be directed at a specific military objective; or
(c) which employ a method or means of combat the effects of which cannot be limited as required by international humanitarian law;
and consequently, in each such case, are of a nature to strike military objectives and civilians or civilian objects without distinction.
A sniper's bullet or an assassin's knife would be targeted; explosives deployed in this manner can't be any more than poison gas could.
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 5:42 PM on September 17 [55 favorites]
Use of explosives in devices carried in public by people who happen to be members of Hezbollah may be "targeted" under a broad definition, but it is also indiscriminate, because those targets at the time of detonation could be driving a car, aboard a bus or train, in a public place like a market, surrounded by other people within the blast radius. From the International Committee of the Red Cross:
Rule 12. Indiscriminate attacks are those:
a) which are not directed at a specific military objective;
(b) which employ a method or means of combat which cannot be directed at a specific military objective; or
(c) which employ a method or means of combat the effects of which cannot be limited as required by international humanitarian law;
and consequently, in each such case, are of a nature to strike military objectives and civilians or civilian objects without distinction.
A sniper's bullet or an assassin's knife would be targeted; explosives deployed in this manner can't be any more than poison gas could.
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 5:42 PM on September 17 [55 favorites]
This is so much like the post-9/11 scenario where people around the world had huge sympathy for victims of a brutal and despicable attack (Oct. 7) and then a racist right-wing government turned it to shit while most of the people of that country sat idly by. I could never be president, because not only would I cut off aid to Israel, I'd back my military shit right out of the region and let the chips fall where they may. Israel is of no benefit to the US as a partner beyond historical associations. We basically get:
* Diamonds
* Defense products (we should bring all that home anyway)
* Some bullshit cybersecurity firms that do not have our best interests at heart
* A place for Evangelicals to visit Jesus land
* The deserved enmity of most of the world
Fuck, let's invite Iran's leaders to Camp David instead. We may not like a lot of what they do, but a thawed relationship with Iran and its allies would be a huge benefit. Not only are they a real power in the region, but we need to give them an alternative to allying with Russia and BRICS-ing their way to the collapse of the dollar as a global currency.
Of course I feel bad for the hostages and the couple of people in Israel killed by bombs, but y'know what? I feel about 1,200/40,005 = 3% as bad about that as I do for the Palestinians killed so far. We do agree that all humans have the same right to live, right?
posted by caviar2d2 at 5:43 PM on September 17 [31 favorites]
* Diamonds
* Defense products (we should bring all that home anyway)
* Some bullshit cybersecurity firms that do not have our best interests at heart
* A place for Evangelicals to visit Jesus land
* The deserved enmity of most of the world
Fuck, let's invite Iran's leaders to Camp David instead. We may not like a lot of what they do, but a thawed relationship with Iran and its allies would be a huge benefit. Not only are they a real power in the region, but we need to give them an alternative to allying with Russia and BRICS-ing their way to the collapse of the dollar as a global currency.
Of course I feel bad for the hostages and the couple of people in Israel killed by bombs, but y'know what? I feel about 1,200/40,005 = 3% as bad about that as I do for the Palestinians killed so far. We do agree that all humans have the same right to live, right?
posted by caviar2d2 at 5:43 PM on September 17 [31 favorites]
Are they at war with the grocery worker standing next to the bomb in the video I linked? What about the little girls? There is a reason police departments often have a rule against high-speed car chases, and they try not to open fire on criminals in crowds. Even if they made sure the pagers they detonated were all in the hands of Hezbollah fighters, they evidently did fuck-all to make sure that innocent bystanders were safe.
posted by surlyben at 5:43 PM on September 17 [50 favorites]
posted by surlyben at 5:43 PM on September 17 [50 favorites]
Hezbollah is a Iranian proxy terrorist group. Hezbollah itself claims 2,000+ Israeli casualties from their rocket fire this year.
Those are numbers of injured soldiers in the border conflict. Using that as justification for setting off explosives to maim or kill noncombatants is a weak justification for a terror attack.
posted by pattern juggler at 5:45 PM on September 17 [36 favorites]
Those are numbers of injured soldiers in the border conflict. Using that as justification for setting off explosives to maim or kill noncombatants is a weak justification for a terror attack.
posted by pattern juggler at 5:45 PM on September 17 [36 favorites]
The message that triggered the explosives purported itself to be from a Hezbollah leader. These weren't sold by retailers.
One thing that can help these threads not devolve into shit is a focus on links and information rather than opinion. With that in mind, would you mind sourcing the above claims, cosmic owl? Not doubting them, just trying to get as much information as I can. It's how I've learned to deal with violent news, apologies for perhaps seeming too callous.
posted by mediareport at 5:51 PM on September 17 [17 favorites]
One thing that can help these threads not devolve into shit is a focus on links and information rather than opinion. With that in mind, would you mind sourcing the above claims, cosmic owl? Not doubting them, just trying to get as much information as I can. It's how I've learned to deal with violent news, apologies for perhaps seeming too callous.
posted by mediareport at 5:51 PM on September 17 [17 favorites]
Y'all are masks off for your straight-up support of Hezbollah, and you call me a terrorist apologist.You’re the only one apologizing for the deaths of innocents. I would shed no tears for Hezbollah’s fighters, but setting off bombs in civilian areas used to be one of the distinguishing characteristics of terrorist groups. I don’t know why you’re taking this so personally but maybe take a minute to seriously consider whether you really want to be arguing that dead or maimed kids is just a cost of doing business?
posted by adamsc at 5:51 PM on September 17 [68 favorites]
Y'all are masks off for your straight-up support of Hezbollah, and you call me a terrorist apologist.
I understand that reaction. Please understand that nobody you're conversing with right now is in "straight-up support of Hezbollah" and that the push-back you're seeing in this thread against a narrative of "precisely targeted" killings of Hezbollah "militants" comes from a well-documented history of Israel being much less than discriminate with whom they target along with well-supported international law dictating that this cannot be considered anything but indiscriminate, given that Israel could not know where and in whose possession all ~2000 of those pagers were.
Please be more gracious to others before accusing everyone.
posted by Room 101 at 5:53 PM on September 17 [63 favorites]
I understand that reaction. Please understand that nobody you're conversing with right now is in "straight-up support of Hezbollah" and that the push-back you're seeing in this thread against a narrative of "precisely targeted" killings of Hezbollah "militants" comes from a well-documented history of Israel being much less than discriminate with whom they target along with well-supported international law dictating that this cannot be considered anything but indiscriminate, given that Israel could not know where and in whose possession all ~2000 of those pagers were.
Please be more gracious to others before accusing everyone.
posted by Room 101 at 5:53 PM on September 17 [63 favorites]
Y'all are masks off for your straight-up support of Hezbollah, and you call me a terrorist apologist.
Who here has pledged support for Hezbollah? Or for that matter, Hamas? They may very well have been Hezbollah members that carried the pagers, but maybe not. Maybe they set the pagers on a table and a friend or family member who is not a member of of Hezbollah picked it up when it beeped. Maybe a passerby who was not a member of Hezbollah was hurt or killed.
cosmic owl, you have to acknowledge that innocents could have been and in fact were hurt or killed by this attack, including an 8-year-old girl. Can you acknowledge that?
posted by zardoz at 5:53 PM on September 17 [20 favorites]
Who here has pledged support for Hezbollah? Or for that matter, Hamas? They may very well have been Hezbollah members that carried the pagers, but maybe not. Maybe they set the pagers on a table and a friend or family member who is not a member of of Hezbollah picked it up when it beeped. Maybe a passerby who was not a member of Hezbollah was hurt or killed.
cosmic owl, you have to acknowledge that innocents could have been and in fact were hurt or killed by this attack, including an 8-year-old girl. Can you acknowledge that?
posted by zardoz at 5:53 PM on September 17 [20 favorites]
What's a little light Terror between neighbours?
posted by Jessica Savitch's Coke Spoon at 5:56 PM on September 17 [6 favorites]
posted by Jessica Savitch's Coke Spoon at 5:56 PM on September 17 [6 favorites]
The timing is designed to start a wider war just before the US elections and help Trump.
I was waiting for something like this because Netanyahu knows he will not survive another Democratic Presidency.
posted by jamjam at 5:57 PM on September 17 [55 favorites]
I was waiting for something like this because Netanyahu knows he will not survive another Democratic Presidency.
posted by jamjam at 5:57 PM on September 17 [55 favorites]
It's true that the devices were distributed specifically to Hezbollah operatives. It's also true that civilians have been wounded and at least one child was killed.
CNN: Exploding pagers had been purchased by Hezbollah in recent months, Lebanese security source says
NYT: Over 3,000 pagers were ordered from Gold Apollo, the officials said. Hezbollah distributed the pagers to its members throughout Lebanon, with some reaching the group’s allies in Iran and Syria, the officials said.
posted by gwint at 5:59 PM on September 17 [10 favorites]
CNN: Exploding pagers had been purchased by Hezbollah in recent months, Lebanese security source says
NYT: Over 3,000 pagers were ordered from Gold Apollo, the officials said. Hezbollah distributed the pagers to its members throughout Lebanon, with some reaching the group’s allies in Iran and Syria, the officials said.
posted by gwint at 5:59 PM on September 17 [10 favorites]
Why would a Taiwanese company be supplying devices to Hezbollah that is designated as a terrorist organization by Taiwan's major allies?
posted by runcifex at 6:04 PM on September 17 [6 favorites]
posted by runcifex at 6:04 PM on September 17 [6 favorites]
The timing is designed to start a wider war just before the US elections
A sensible American adminstration would tell Netanyahu "okay, well, you broke it, you bought it. Good luck fighting Iran, we won't be sending any carrier groups or air support and won't be giving you targeting intelligence", rather than letting the US get sucked into a regional war. If that's the game Bibi wants to play, then he can do it on his own.
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 6:04 PM on September 17 [19 favorites]
A sensible American adminstration would tell Netanyahu "okay, well, you broke it, you bought it. Good luck fighting Iran, we won't be sending any carrier groups or air support and won't be giving you targeting intelligence", rather than letting the US get sucked into a regional war. If that's the game Bibi wants to play, then he can do it on his own.
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 6:04 PM on September 17 [19 favorites]
Why would a Taiwanese company be supplying devices to Hezbollah that is designated as a terrorist organization by Taiwan's major allies?
I don't think they were "supplied", they're super-cheap commodity devices sold on the open market. No kind of export controls at all and really nothing to prevent an anonymous purchase. Just a throwaway item bought off of Alibaba like this. Israeli intelligence somehow noticed the shipment and intercepted it.
posted by mr_roboto at 6:12 PM on September 17 [13 favorites]
I don't think they were "supplied", they're super-cheap commodity devices sold on the open market. No kind of export controls at all and really nothing to prevent an anonymous purchase. Just a throwaway item bought off of Alibaba like this. Israeli intelligence somehow noticed the shipment and intercepted it.
posted by mr_roboto at 6:12 PM on September 17 [13 favorites]
Has anyone read informed discussion (or even educated speculation) about the reason for the timing of this detonation?
If you have successfully smuggled exploding devices into the hands of your enemy, normally you'd think that you would hold them in reserve, to be used during a time of heightened conflict to generate chaos in the enemy. But doing now just feels random. It is not going materially diminish Hezbollah's offensive capacity. I don't see how it helps Israel in any way. It's just going to piss off the whole world even more.
posted by Winnie the Proust at 6:15 PM on September 17 [12 favorites]
If you have successfully smuggled exploding devices into the hands of your enemy, normally you'd think that you would hold them in reserve, to be used during a time of heightened conflict to generate chaos in the enemy. But doing now just feels random. It is not going materially diminish Hezbollah's offensive capacity. I don't see how it helps Israel in any way. It's just going to piss off the whole world even more.
posted by Winnie the Proust at 6:15 PM on September 17 [12 favorites]
Y'all are masks off for your straight-up support of Hezbollah
Well that gross hyperbole should help the conversation.
posted by ctmf at 6:16 PM on September 17 [54 favorites]
Well that gross hyperbole should help the conversation.
posted by ctmf at 6:16 PM on September 17 [54 favorites]
The timing is designed to start a wider war just before the US elections and help Trump.
Feels right. I wouldn't be surprised if someone in Trump's camp were playing Iran Hostage Crisis 2: Electric Boogaloo with the Israelis, though to be honest, that sort of shadow diplomacy is obsolete when both parties know precisely on which side their bread is buttered and exactly what type of butter they like.
posted by Room 101 at 6:17 PM on September 17 [7 favorites]
Feels right. I wouldn't be surprised if someone in Trump's camp were playing Iran Hostage Crisis 2: Electric Boogaloo with the Israelis, though to be honest, that sort of shadow diplomacy is obsolete when both parties know precisely on which side their bread is buttered and exactly what type of butter they like.
posted by Room 101 at 6:17 PM on September 17 [7 favorites]
I’m not changing my stance, this is just terrorism.
Talk about who and what these pagers are for but we’re not hearing “4,000 Hezbollah soldiers killed or injured”. The sheer stupidity and vileness of this plan hurt people that are clearly innocent. Talk about cutting off your nose to spite your face, how many more people will be radicalized now?
posted by JakeEXTREME at 6:19 PM on September 17 [18 favorites]
Talk about who and what these pagers are for but we’re not hearing “4,000 Hezbollah soldiers killed or injured”. The sheer stupidity and vileness of this plan hurt people that are clearly innocent. Talk about cutting off your nose to spite your face, how many more people will be radicalized now?
posted by JakeEXTREME at 6:19 PM on September 17 [18 favorites]
Also you know one generally can’t kill even soldiers who aren’t engaging in battle at the time. Like, it’s not generally acceptable to put bombs in the houses of soldiers to blow them up when they’re out of uniform just as an FYI in case anyone was wondering about the law of war here.
posted by corb at 6:20 PM on September 17 [64 favorites]
posted by corb at 6:20 PM on September 17 [64 favorites]
Jesus christ this is heinous. Colder than negative Kelvin. Like the sizzling background hum of violence in the world suddenly ratcheted up to an almost palpable buzz. Look out for one another, folks. Keep a light heart and a clear head.
posted by dmh at 6:20 PM on September 17 [9 favorites]
posted by dmh at 6:20 PM on September 17 [9 favorites]
zardoz, I do think the IDF is full of genocidal maniacs, actually. I don't support their actions in Gaza one jot. I wish none of this had happened. I hate that a little girl was killed. You can tell yourselves that anyone who thinks that Israel has any right to defend themselves must be an insensate monster, but I'm not.
Hezbollah kills kids:
12 children killed as Hezbollah rocket hits soccer field, sparking wider war fears
Did their lives count? Were they not civilians?
If you think all of this is downstream of Israel's illegitimate occupation and therefore Israel has no right to to any military operations under any circumstances, then fine. But saying that it must be indiscriminate because it's Israel is totally divorced from any basis in the news. This is so much more discriminate than the rocket fire from Hezbollah that it makes my head spin to see it being called indiscriminate. Israel is not on higher moral ground here; they've indiscriminately blown Gaza to smithereens. But this specific situation is so much more particularly targeted towards hurting only military members than any operation I've ever heard of. Vastly more so than America's military policies. It's wild to see people here calling this "unconscionable shit, beyond the pale, absolute grotesquerie" when it's significantly more targeted than its targets are.
posted by cosmic owl at 6:20 PM on September 17 [31 favorites]
Hezbollah kills kids:
12 children killed as Hezbollah rocket hits soccer field, sparking wider war fears
Did their lives count? Were they not civilians?
If you think all of this is downstream of Israel's illegitimate occupation and therefore Israel has no right to to any military operations under any circumstances, then fine. But saying that it must be indiscriminate because it's Israel is totally divorced from any basis in the news. This is so much more discriminate than the rocket fire from Hezbollah that it makes my head spin to see it being called indiscriminate. Israel is not on higher moral ground here; they've indiscriminately blown Gaza to smithereens. But this specific situation is so much more particularly targeted towards hurting only military members than any operation I've ever heard of. Vastly more so than America's military policies. It's wild to see people here calling this "unconscionable shit, beyond the pale, absolute grotesquerie" when it's significantly more targeted than its targets are.
posted by cosmic owl at 6:20 PM on September 17 [31 favorites]
It seems highly likely that one or more of these IEDs have been unknowingly carried through airport security and onto planes - they must have been designed to pass normal scanning procedures
posted by mbo at 6:21 PM on September 17 [13 favorites]
posted by mbo at 6:21 PM on September 17 [13 favorites]
Cosmic Owl, take it from me, when the whole room is telling you loudly how wrong you are, it's a good idea to take a walk and think about stuff a little. Ultimately, this is a message board and not the UN.
posted by kittens for breakfast at 6:23 PM on September 17 [44 favorites]
posted by kittens for breakfast at 6:23 PM on September 17 [44 favorites]
Some discussion from the Institute for the Study of War. This was based on info available at 2:00 PM today. They will likely have more to say tomorrow.
posted by Winnie the Proust at 6:24 PM on September 17 [13 favorites]
Israel simultaneously detonated thousands of pagers used by Lebanese Hezbollah members across Lebanon and Syria on September 17.[1] Lebanese officials reported that around 2,800 individuals were injured, though some reports suggest that the number is closer to 4,000, most of whom are Hezbollah members.[2] The attack also injured the Iranian ambassador to Lebanon, Mojtaba Amani.[3] Hezbollah mourned the death of 12 fighters after the attack but did not explicitly acknowledge how they died.[4] Israel reportedly executed the attack by planting one-to-two ounces of explosive material and remote triggers inside a batch of Taiwanese-made pagers en route to Lebanon.[5] Hezbollah had ordered the pagers to communicate across its ranks, as Hezbollah Secretary General ordered group members to limit cellphone usage in order to avoid Israeli detection.[6] Hezbollah responded to the attack by blaming Israel and vowing to retaliate.[7](FWIW, I don't think this is designed to start a wider war. Israel and Iran have had plenty of opportunities to start a wider and they walked it back every time. And it's not a deadly enough strike to escalate the situation that much. But if anyone has links to discussion from people who study the politics of the region, that would be great.)
The attack has likely had several negative effects on Hezbollah military effectiveness at least temporarily. The attack likely disrupted some internal communications across Hezbollah, especially given the extent to which Hezbollah has been relying on pagers in recent months. The nature and scale of the attack also likely stoked confusion and shock among some Hezbollah members. These effects could drive general paranoia within Hezbollah as well, given that Israel has demonstrated repeatedly in recent months how deeply it has infiltrated Iranian and Iranian-backed networks.
posted by Winnie the Proust at 6:24 PM on September 17 [13 favorites]
anyone who thinks that Israel has any right to defend themselves must be an insensate monster
Anyone who thinks that what Israel is presently doing is in pursuit of "a right of self defence" is an insensate monster, yes. (And anyone who thinks Israel's right of self-defence extends to the indiscriminate slaughter of children, the bombing of refugee camps, the utter annihiliation of a population...in short, everything that Israel has been doing since October 7th...they're also insensate monsters. )
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 6:24 PM on September 17 [32 favorites]
Anyone who thinks that what Israel is presently doing is in pursuit of "a right of self defence" is an insensate monster, yes. (And anyone who thinks Israel's right of self-defence extends to the indiscriminate slaughter of children, the bombing of refugee camps, the utter annihiliation of a population...in short, everything that Israel has been doing since October 7th...they're also insensate monsters. )
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 6:24 PM on September 17 [32 favorites]
Don't think too much about it. Remember when israel bombed the first hospital in Gaza? we had a ton of people here saying israel would never do that, it it was Hamas rocketing their own hospital. Only after while did the messaging change to "the hospital deserved to get bombed"
After they bombed several other hospitals.
At least this time they are skipping over the denial stage of Israeli warcrimes.
posted by Iax at 6:24 PM on September 17 [54 favorites]
After they bombed several other hospitals.
At least this time they are skipping over the denial stage of Israeli warcrimes.
posted by Iax at 6:24 PM on September 17 [54 favorites]
The brazen scope of the espionage is fascinating.
posted by Jessica Savitch's Coke Spoon at 6:25 PM on September 17 [7 favorites]
posted by Jessica Savitch's Coke Spoon at 6:25 PM on September 17 [7 favorites]
Pride and respect matter and Israel figuratively and in some cases literally castrated Hezbollah today - demonstrating their weakness in all respects. Beyond pride, Israel inflicted serious capacity degradation - thousands of key operatives injured and communication capability seriously eroded. How will they trust any cell phones or walkie talkies they can acquire now? Why would Iran rely on them as partners going forward?
posted by MattD at 6:28 PM on September 17 [5 favorites]
posted by MattD at 6:28 PM on September 17 [5 favorites]
I was referring to this quote from the NYT report --
There's so many questions about this. I wouldn't be surprised if Hezbollah leadership had planted the explosive backdoors in those devices it issued to members in the first place ("FOR OFFICIAL USE ONLY"). Hacking a centralized command point (or some of the few such points) authorized to detonate the bombs, in software, would be a lot easier than tampering with the hardware supply chain and individual devices.
In any case this is a shocking failure on the part of Hezbollah (and civilians are dying because of that). Like, no internal QC for procured military devices? Before giving them out in the thousands? To be used in civilian settings?
posted by runcifex at 6:31 PM on September 17 [3 favorites]
> The pagers, which Hezbollah had ordered from the Gold Apollo company in TaiwanI guess that may be a grossly simplified way to put it, because some random manufacturer in Taiwan operating on razor-thin margins doesn't just "take orders from the Hezbollah" and risk global sanctions (and if it had, there actually would've been way less attack surface that could have enabled this sort of attack)
There's so many questions about this. I wouldn't be surprised if Hezbollah leadership had planted the explosive backdoors in those devices it issued to members in the first place ("FOR OFFICIAL USE ONLY"). Hacking a centralized command point (or some of the few such points) authorized to detonate the bombs, in software, would be a lot easier than tampering with the hardware supply chain and individual devices.
In any case this is a shocking failure on the part of Hezbollah (and civilians are dying because of that). Like, no internal QC for procured military devices? Before giving them out in the thousands? To be used in civilian settings?
posted by runcifex at 6:31 PM on September 17 [3 favorites]
I guess that may be a grossly simplified way to put it, because some random manufacturer in Taiwan operating on razor-thin margins doesn't just "take orders from the Hezbollah" and risk global sanctions
Do you actually think they put "Hezbollah, PO Box 437, Tehran, Iran" as their return address? (That's in the same category of opsec fuckups as taking notes on a criminal conspiracy.) A Taiwanese company taking a large order for pagers from an individual or ftont company in Iran is not necessarily an unusual thing.
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 6:34 PM on September 17 [5 favorites]
Do you actually think they put "Hezbollah, PO Box 437, Tehran, Iran" as their return address? (That's in the same category of opsec fuckups as taking notes on a criminal conspiracy.) A Taiwanese company taking a large order for pagers from an individual or ftont company in Iran is not necessarily an unusual thing.
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 6:34 PM on September 17 [5 favorites]
Did their lives count? Were they not civilians?
I'm pretty sure nobody here is in favor of bombing children and civilians. That's why we are horrified?
But also: you want people talking about how amazing it was that they got these into the hands of Hezbollah, or what a blow it was or wasn't? That is also in this thread.
posted by surlyben at 6:35 PM on September 17 [9 favorites]
I'm pretty sure nobody here is in favor of bombing children and civilians. That's why we are horrified?
But also: you want people talking about how amazing it was that they got these into the hands of Hezbollah, or what a blow it was or wasn't? That is also in this thread.
posted by surlyben at 6:35 PM on September 17 [9 favorites]
a classic example of how being very clever is not the same as being intelligent
strategically they've pissed off their enemies and perhaps persuaded them that if they're THAT doomed, they might as well go down fighting all at once
they've also introduced messing with international supply lines as a way of conducting terrorism, something that will probably be followed by many other examples by other people and may result in protectionism and increase border controls by many countries, less trade and ultimately a world-wide recession, if not depression
and who's going to get blamed for that?
this is an appallingly stupid thing to do, even if somehow it doesn't start a big war
posted by pyramid termite at 6:36 PM on September 17 [25 favorites]
strategically they've pissed off their enemies and perhaps persuaded them that if they're THAT doomed, they might as well go down fighting all at once
they've also introduced messing with international supply lines as a way of conducting terrorism, something that will probably be followed by many other examples by other people and may result in protectionism and increase border controls by many countries, less trade and ultimately a world-wide recession, if not depression
and who's going to get blamed for that?
this is an appallingly stupid thing to do, even if somehow it doesn't start a big war
posted by pyramid termite at 6:36 PM on September 17 [25 favorites]
Hezbollah kills kids:
There are not actually any Hezbollah supporters here. If your immediate response to people decrying an act of terror is to accuse them of supporting a different act of terror, you might step back and look at how you are thinking about the victims in the situation. Imagine if Hezbollah had managed to get the same sort of rigged devices into the hands of rear echelon members of the IDF and detonated them, blinding and killing some of them and some of their family members. Would you be defending their decision to do so?
posted by pattern juggler at 6:37 PM on September 17 [41 favorites]
There are not actually any Hezbollah supporters here. If your immediate response to people decrying an act of terror is to accuse them of supporting a different act of terror, you might step back and look at how you are thinking about the victims in the situation. Imagine if Hezbollah had managed to get the same sort of rigged devices into the hands of rear echelon members of the IDF and detonated them, blinding and killing some of them and some of their family members. Would you be defending their decision to do so?
posted by pattern juggler at 6:37 PM on September 17 [41 favorites]
Since I'm legally barred from discussing the ethical implications of the current middle east conflict, I can remark on the novel attack vector and how it must complicate everyone's risk assessment when it comes to troops and bases and civilian goods. Kind of how that Strava app revealed US bases, having anti-personel remote triggering electronics in the consumer market could be very hard to gaurd against. How would you inspect everyones toys, how would you recognize a battery or capacitor as a decoy.
Hard enough to stop folks from putting outside USBs in their work stations.
posted by No Climate - No Food, No Food - No Future. at 6:37 PM on September 17 [24 favorites]
Hard enough to stop folks from putting outside USBs in their work stations.
posted by No Climate - No Food, No Food - No Future. at 6:37 PM on September 17 [24 favorites]
Anyone who thinks that what Israel is presently doing is in pursuit of "a right of self defence" is an insensate monster, yes.
It's not like this action came out of nowhere. Israel and Hezbollah have been engaged in a steadily escalating conflict since Oct. 7. Between Southern Lebanon and Northern Israel, 200,000 people have been displaced because of it, with thousands of military and hundreds of civilians casualties.
But this is a massive escalation. Why now, though? Why this exact moment? Did the Mossad think the scheme was about to be discovered?
posted by gwint at 6:38 PM on September 17 [1 favorite]
It's not like this action came out of nowhere. Israel and Hezbollah have been engaged in a steadily escalating conflict since Oct. 7. Between Southern Lebanon and Northern Israel, 200,000 people have been displaced because of it, with thousands of military and hundreds of civilians casualties.
But this is a massive escalation. Why now, though? Why this exact moment? Did the Mossad think the scheme was about to be discovered?
posted by gwint at 6:38 PM on September 17 [1 favorite]
Why would a Taiwanese company be supplying devices to Hezbollah that is designated as a terrorist organization by Taiwan's major allies?
War! What is it good for? It's good for business.
posted by kirkaracha at 6:40 PM on September 17 [6 favorites]
War! What is it good for? It's good for business.
posted by kirkaracha at 6:40 PM on September 17 [6 favorites]
Absolutely nothing! say it again!
posted by mbo at 6:43 PM on September 17 [7 favorites]
posted by mbo at 6:43 PM on September 17 [7 favorites]
I think it is some incredible luck that there wasn't more collateral damage. Lots of those Hezbollah guys likely have day jobs. Imagine if that pager had gone off at a gas station or taken out a guy driving a bus.
posted by srboisvert at 6:43 PM on September 17 [3 favorites]
posted by srboisvert at 6:43 PM on September 17 [3 favorites]
It's not like this action came out of nowhere
I was referring to the atrocities still being visited on Gaza daily (the attention of the world's media may have shifted away, but that doesn't mean Israel has stopped).
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 6:44 PM on September 17 [8 favorites]
I was referring to the atrocities still being visited on Gaza daily (the attention of the world's media may have shifted away, but that doesn't mean Israel has stopped).
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 6:44 PM on September 17 [8 favorites]
The painting of one atrocity as better than another atrocity is disturbing. It’s perfectly fine to think this indiscriminate terror attack is bad without approving of another indiscriminate terror attack.
posted by JakeEXTREME at 6:45 PM on September 17 [24 favorites]
posted by JakeEXTREME at 6:45 PM on September 17 [24 favorites]
No comment on anything else, but Hezbollah and Hamas absolutely have youth wings and a shit-ton of indoctrination. So do Israelis, and so do Americans, but both Hezbollah and Hamas have all kinds of propaganda telling young children of the benefits of martyrdom. This is not to imply that a child killed by this cartoonishly fiendish plot is necessarily a terrorist; I just wanted to respond to the person who said something like "it's not as if they have youth wings". They totally do.
posted by outgrown_hobnail at 6:48 PM on September 17 [6 favorites]
posted by outgrown_hobnail at 6:48 PM on September 17 [6 favorites]
I'm sympathetic to Israel's need to defend itself against an asymmetrical terrorist threat.
Seems pretty symmetric at the moment.
Is there a single German word that means "technically impressed while being morally appalled?"
posted by stevis23 at 6:54 PM on September 17 [12 favorites]
Seems pretty symmetric at the moment.
Is there a single German word that means "technically impressed while being morally appalled?"
posted by stevis23 at 6:54 PM on September 17 [12 favorites]
kittens for breakfast, I've watched this room run off and silence anyone who thinks Israeli lives are worth a damn since October 7th, no matter how much they condemn Israel's actions or defend and support the project of Palestinian liberation and nationhood. So even if there was unanimity, it wouldn't mean much to me.
Lebanon isn't Gaza. This does seem like a huge blow to Hezbollah, with a lower civilian casualty rate than a single Hezbollah rocket attack. The lack of collateral damage wasn't luck; it was baked into the premise of the attack. There's a lot of speculation here about "what if someone brought one on a plane" or "what if someone else had gotten the paramilitary member's equipment" that isn't grounded in any reporting of the facts, including all the reporting of the magnitude of the explosions (very small, on purpose!). When Israel kills civilians it should be rightfully condemned, and there's a lot of condemning to do. When Israel carries out an operation to specifically target the paramilitary members of an organization who indiscriminately kill civilians while limiting civilian casualties as much as seems possible, and it gets painted here as even more evidence of the inhuman, unprecedented evil of Israel, it makes me wonder whether some people here think Israeli civilians are ever worth defending.
posted by cosmic owl at 6:57 PM on September 17 [32 favorites]
Lebanon isn't Gaza. This does seem like a huge blow to Hezbollah, with a lower civilian casualty rate than a single Hezbollah rocket attack. The lack of collateral damage wasn't luck; it was baked into the premise of the attack. There's a lot of speculation here about "what if someone brought one on a plane" or "what if someone else had gotten the paramilitary member's equipment" that isn't grounded in any reporting of the facts, including all the reporting of the magnitude of the explosions (very small, on purpose!). When Israel kills civilians it should be rightfully condemned, and there's a lot of condemning to do. When Israel carries out an operation to specifically target the paramilitary members of an organization who indiscriminately kill civilians while limiting civilian casualties as much as seems possible, and it gets painted here as even more evidence of the inhuman, unprecedented evil of Israel, it makes me wonder whether some people here think Israeli civilians are ever worth defending.
posted by cosmic owl at 6:57 PM on September 17 [32 favorites]
Do people really think Hezbollah is emailing pager suppliers in Taiwan like: "I'm a procurement officer for Hezbollah and we'd like to purchase 500 of your pagers for the purposes of coordinating our fight against the Isreali state"? This is not how modern commerce works; these suppliers neither really know nor particularly care who their clients are. Some completely normal sounding company somewhere, probably not in Lebanon at all, bought those pagers. Evidently Mossad knew something, but it's not like pager suppliers in Taiwan are expected to do an in depth investigation on every client who buys 5-figures worth of pagers.
It's not like we hold Toyota responsible for every truck that ends up involved in a conflict, because that's every asymmetrical conflict in the world.
posted by ssg at 6:58 PM on September 17 [14 favorites]
It's not like we hold Toyota responsible for every truck that ends up involved in a conflict, because that's every asymmetrical conflict in the world.
posted by ssg at 6:58 PM on September 17 [14 favorites]
It's wild to see people here calling this "unconscionable shit, beyond the pale, absolute grotesquerie" when it's significantly more targeted than its targets are.
So were weighing atrocities, is that where we are? If Israel kills enemy combatants in a war, that's one thing. But Israel knew these beepers could hurt civilians. If Israel is the shining example of democracy and free speech and yadda yadda, shouldn't they be above indiscriminate killing of innocents?
Notice how I am not defending Hezbollah rockets fired indiscriminately among Israeli civilians. I just don't see how you compare the two. Who cares if one is more or less deadly to civilians--neither should be happening. When someone in Israel said "Hey, what if we put bombs in their beepers," others should've stopped that line of thinking. Because they should be better people than that. Apparently not.
posted by zardoz at 6:59 PM on September 17 [13 favorites]
So were weighing atrocities, is that where we are? If Israel kills enemy combatants in a war, that's one thing. But Israel knew these beepers could hurt civilians. If Israel is the shining example of democracy and free speech and yadda yadda, shouldn't they be above indiscriminate killing of innocents?
Notice how I am not defending Hezbollah rockets fired indiscriminately among Israeli civilians. I just don't see how you compare the two. Who cares if one is more or less deadly to civilians--neither should be happening. When someone in Israel said "Hey, what if we put bombs in their beepers," others should've stopped that line of thinking. Because they should be better people than that. Apparently not.
posted by zardoz at 6:59 PM on September 17 [13 favorites]
.
posted by limeonaire at 7:00 PM on September 17 [9 favorites]
posted by limeonaire at 7:00 PM on September 17 [9 favorites]
a lower civilian casualty rate
I think you probably meant a lower civilian *death* rate there. The wounded count as casualties, and you and I have no idea at this point how many casualties were civilians.
posted by mediareport at 7:02 PM on September 17 [17 favorites]
I think you probably meant a lower civilian *death* rate there. The wounded count as casualties, and you and I have no idea at this point how many casualties were civilians.
posted by mediareport at 7:02 PM on September 17 [17 favorites]
whether some people here think Israeli civilians are ever worth defending
Israel as a state has been wilfully violating international law, committing war crimes, and carrying out atrocities for litereally decades. We're talking about a country founded as a colonial settler project, on an act of ethnic cleansing, which is currently engaging in ethnic cleansing and settlement-building in violation of international law, while carrying out a genocide and engaging in targeted and deliberate provocations aimed at inciting a regional conflict that would draw in the USA to benefit the Republican Party and harm the Democratic semi-incumbent's chances at election. Why on earth should anyone outside of Israel think any of that is worth defending?
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 7:08 PM on September 17 [41 favorites]
Israel as a state has been wilfully violating international law, committing war crimes, and carrying out atrocities for litereally decades. We're talking about a country founded as a colonial settler project, on an act of ethnic cleansing, which is currently engaging in ethnic cleansing and settlement-building in violation of international law, while carrying out a genocide and engaging in targeted and deliberate provocations aimed at inciting a regional conflict that would draw in the USA to benefit the Republican Party and harm the Democratic semi-incumbent's chances at election. Why on earth should anyone outside of Israel think any of that is worth defending?
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 7:08 PM on September 17 [41 favorites]
it makes me wonder whether some people here think Israeli civilians are ever worth defending.
I do think Israeli civilians are worth defending. I take issue with the means. Setting up a bunch of booby traps to trick people into being blown up is some Unabomber shit. It's not complicated. "This atrocity is more targeted than that atrocity" is not the defense you seem to think it is.
posted by axiom at 7:14 PM on September 17 [36 favorites]
I do think Israeli civilians are worth defending. I take issue with the means. Setting up a bunch of booby traps to trick people into being blown up is some Unabomber shit. It's not complicated. "This atrocity is more targeted than that atrocity" is not the defense you seem to think it is.
posted by axiom at 7:14 PM on September 17 [36 favorites]
When Israel carries out an operation to specifically target the paramilitary members of an organization who indiscriminately kill civilians while limiting civilian casualties as much as seems possible, and it gets painted here as even more evidence of the inhuman, unprecedented evil of Israel, it makes me wonder whether some people here think Israeli civilians are ever worth defending.
So you're asking if we condemn the October 7th terror attacks? This is an appalling kind of whataboutism. Nobody has mentioned Israeli civilians because this is a post about an attack against Lebanese people.
The Israeli military indiscriminately kills civilians. Would you think it acceptable to set off explosives on the persons and in the homes of noncombatant members of the Israeli military? This is a genuine question I'd like to know your answer to.
posted by pattern juggler at 7:17 PM on September 17 [19 favorites]
So you're asking if we condemn the October 7th terror attacks? This is an appalling kind of whataboutism. Nobody has mentioned Israeli civilians because this is a post about an attack against Lebanese people.
The Israeli military indiscriminately kills civilians. Would you think it acceptable to set off explosives on the persons and in the homes of noncombatant members of the Israeli military? This is a genuine question I'd like to know your answer to.
posted by pattern juggler at 7:17 PM on September 17 [19 favorites]
I'm an American, so I don't begrudge Israel's right to value their citizens' lives above everyone else's, in a way. It's totally natural for humans to value those perceived as biologically or culturally close above others. It's the international human rights and the empathy for people in other cultures that are the rare and aspirational bit where we go above and beyond what's biologically programmed and logical. So if Israel feels they need to bomb hospitals and ignore international law because they fear destruction, or because they are just a warlike nation, they should go right ahead. But I don't think the US should be selling weapons to/importing goods from Israel or implicating ourselves in this in any way. I have a real problem with pro-Israel forces in the US like AIPAC driving our policy and bullying me, as a US citizen with no dual allegiance, into not boycotting/divesting/speaking up.
I've spent my whole life giving Israel the benefit of the doubt. I have had many more American Jewish friends (including several with Holocaust tattoos) than I ever have had Palestinians or Muslims, just because of where I grew up. I theoretically have a lot of reasons to root for Israel, but I just can't. It's just too easy to see *why* I and other Americans have a pro-Israel bias: the horror of the Holocaust and subsequent immigration of European Jews to the US, their long struggle to be counted as "white" culminating in everyone saying "Judeo-Christian values", their incredible culture and contributions to the US over decades, and then as a Southerner my first real up-front experience of Islam (yes, I know Palestinians are not all Muslim) being 9/11 and various beheadings, fatwas, and all sorts of bullshit like that. I'm an atheist so I think most people are nuts - but hopefully I've learned something in the last 23 years of paying attention, learning, listening - I can't go back to just supporting Israel no matter what they do any more than I would expect other countries to look at our history and just wave tiny American flags.
Never mind that colonialist powers basically just gave Israel to the Jews when it wasn't theirs (ours) to give. I just feel really strongly that Israel must act with humility and not arrogance and belligerence if they want a thin fucking dime from us. That's the same behavior I angrily demand from my own country every time we start a stupid war. I don't expect Afghanis and Iraqs to give a fuck about who died in the Twin Towers at this point; they've been paid back brutally and cynically hundreds or thousands of times over. Netanyahu, his allies, the settlers, the fucking Mossad ghouls ... it's more of the same and contributing negatively to the progress of humanity.
posted by caviar2d2 at 7:18 PM on September 17 [20 favorites]
I've spent my whole life giving Israel the benefit of the doubt. I have had many more American Jewish friends (including several with Holocaust tattoos) than I ever have had Palestinians or Muslims, just because of where I grew up. I theoretically have a lot of reasons to root for Israel, but I just can't. It's just too easy to see *why* I and other Americans have a pro-Israel bias: the horror of the Holocaust and subsequent immigration of European Jews to the US, their long struggle to be counted as "white" culminating in everyone saying "Judeo-Christian values", their incredible culture and contributions to the US over decades, and then as a Southerner my first real up-front experience of Islam (yes, I know Palestinians are not all Muslim) being 9/11 and various beheadings, fatwas, and all sorts of bullshit like that. I'm an atheist so I think most people are nuts - but hopefully I've learned something in the last 23 years of paying attention, learning, listening - I can't go back to just supporting Israel no matter what they do any more than I would expect other countries to look at our history and just wave tiny American flags.
Never mind that colonialist powers basically just gave Israel to the Jews when it wasn't theirs (ours) to give. I just feel really strongly that Israel must act with humility and not arrogance and belligerence if they want a thin fucking dime from us. That's the same behavior I angrily demand from my own country every time we start a stupid war. I don't expect Afghanis and Iraqs to give a fuck about who died in the Twin Towers at this point; they've been paid back brutally and cynically hundreds or thousands of times over. Netanyahu, his allies, the settlers, the fucking Mossad ghouls ... it's more of the same and contributing negatively to the progress of humanity.
posted by caviar2d2 at 7:18 PM on September 17 [20 favorites]
Pardon me if I don't have an ounce of confidence in "specific targeting" when as we've seen so far it involves thousands of innocent bystanders dying, but hey, let's not forget about the Israeli civilians.
posted by Sphinx at 7:20 PM on September 17 [10 favorites]
posted by Sphinx at 7:20 PM on September 17 [10 favorites]
These pagers were purchased by Hezbollah and distributed to Hezbollah members. Hezbollah is a Iranian proxy terrorist group.
A think people like to forget is: Hizbullah, just like Hamas, is a political party with a paramilitary wing. There are a lot of "members of Hizbullah" who are not fighters and are doing jobs basically completely unrelated to the resistance.
Yes, Hizbullah are right-wing shitheads! But saying that it's acceptable to blow up any member of Hizbullah is equivalent to saying that it's acceptable to blow up any member of the Republican party, including doctors, paramedics, & 18-year-olds who filled out their voter registration cards with their parents watching.
posted by adrienneleigh at 7:21 PM on September 17 [32 favorites]
A think people like to forget is: Hizbullah, just like Hamas, is a political party with a paramilitary wing. There are a lot of "members of Hizbullah" who are not fighters and are doing jobs basically completely unrelated to the resistance.
Yes, Hizbullah are right-wing shitheads! But saying that it's acceptable to blow up any member of Hizbullah is equivalent to saying that it's acceptable to blow up any member of the Republican party, including doctors, paramedics, & 18-year-olds who filled out their voter registration cards with their parents watching.
posted by adrienneleigh at 7:21 PM on September 17 [32 favorites]
Extremely impressed with this. In terms of spycraft, this went almost as well as the stuxnet worm. Managing to get your enemy to carry an explosive around for you is quite the feat. Finding out where in the supply chain this was done in a few years will be fascinating.
posted by ockmockbock at 7:24 PM on September 17 [6 favorites]
posted by ockmockbock at 7:24 PM on September 17 [6 favorites]
The whole thing almost seems like a missed opportunity - like, if you have devices that you know are going to Hezbollah, what if you find a way to track some of them, like maybe even just 1/4, if not all? Potentially map out the whole organization in Lebanon and maybe beyond if you can get observation on a few guys; pick your time and opportunity for an assassination squad if necessary.
posted by LionIndex at 7:26 PM on September 17
posted by LionIndex at 7:26 PM on September 17
The thing about 1-way pagers is that they can't be tracked - the cell towers just keep sending a message for a fixed period of time with the intent that within that period of time every pager will come into range
(for all we know there's a guy on a plane flying into Beirut right now on his way home just coming into range of the local cell network as the plane lands ....)
posted by mbo at 7:29 PM on September 17 [6 favorites]
(for all we know there's a guy on a plane flying into Beirut right now on his way home just coming into range of the local cell network as the plane lands ....)
posted by mbo at 7:29 PM on September 17 [6 favorites]
Lebanon has a right to defend itself.
posted by adrienneleigh at 7:30 PM on September 17 [13 favorites]
posted by adrienneleigh at 7:30 PM on September 17 [13 favorites]
This was a mind boggling scheme that required amazing feats of coordination. You only get to shoot off this wad once. Yes, despite the collateral damage, this was unusually targeted group hit.
I wonder if we're ever going to find out the logistics of how this was really pulled off?
posted by 2N2222 at 7:33 PM on September 17 [4 favorites]
I wonder if we're ever going to find out the logistics of how this was really pulled off?
posted by 2N2222 at 7:33 PM on September 17 [4 favorites]
Pride and respect matter and Israel figuratively and in some cases literally castrated Hezbollah today - demonstrating their weakness in all respects. Beyond pride, Israel inflicted serious capacity degradation - thousands of key operatives injured and communication capability seriously eroded. How will they trust any cell phones or walkie talkies they can acquire now? Why would Iran rely on them as partners going forward?
Jeeesus.
posted by Gadarene at 7:34 PM on September 17 [18 favorites]
Jeeesus.
posted by Gadarene at 7:34 PM on September 17 [18 favorites]
Israel isn't at war with Lebanon; they are at war with Hezbollah.
Sooooo...if some of those Hezbollah members had happened to be in the United States when the pagers exploded, and the explosions had killed at least one American child and injured at least dozens of other Americans, would you consider that an act of war against the United States? Would you consider it justified? Or is it only the ambient Arab-ness of being in Lebanon that gives Israel a free shot?
posted by praemunire at 7:36 PM on September 17 [30 favorites]
Sooooo...if some of those Hezbollah members had happened to be in the United States when the pagers exploded, and the explosions had killed at least one American child and injured at least dozens of other Americans, would you consider that an act of war against the United States? Would you consider it justified? Or is it only the ambient Arab-ness of being in Lebanon that gives Israel a free shot?
posted by praemunire at 7:36 PM on September 17 [30 favorites]
Israel figuratively and in some cases literally castrated Hezbollah today - demonstrating their weakness in all respects
This is such a vile and bloodthirsty thing to say that i cannot even.
posted by adrienneleigh at 7:36 PM on September 17 [27 favorites]
This is such a vile and bloodthirsty thing to say that i cannot even.
posted by adrienneleigh at 7:36 PM on September 17 [27 favorites]
Pride and respect matter and Israel figuratively and in some cases literally castrated Hezbollah today
Is the actual argument that toxic masculinity on the part of states means it’s justifiable to murder 8 year olds? I just want to define where we are coming from before I enter the discussion here.
posted by corb at 7:37 PM on September 17 [25 favorites]
Is the actual argument that toxic masculinity on the part of states means it’s justifiable to murder 8 year olds? I just want to define where we are coming from before I enter the discussion here.
posted by corb at 7:37 PM on September 17 [25 favorites]
This is such a vile and bloodthirsty thing to say that i cannot even.
Stuff like that is better to flag and move on. Whether it is trolling or moral bankruptcy, some people are not worth trying to communicate with.
posted by pattern juggler at 7:37 PM on September 17 [12 favorites]
Israel as a state has been wilfully violating international law
"Conservatism consists of exactly one proposition, to wit: There must be in-groups whom the law protects but does not bind, alongside out-groups whom the law binds but does not protect."
Can you point to any recent case where an Israeli citizen materially benefited from anyone outside of the Israeli state invoking and upholding a provision of international law?
Have the hostages in Gaza received visits from the Red Cross? Hell, my grandfather's survival in 1938 involved blithe and utter disregard for international law as it existed at the time (and multiple violations). My existence is prima facie proof of violations of it.
There are two domains of the law where we don't bother to say that there "must be" in-groups and out-groups. But that there ARE. Immigration law: your rights depend on your ancestry and your longitude/latitude at time of birth. And international law. So don't be surprised that some people and some states are less than reverential towards the concept.
posted by ocschwar at 7:37 PM on September 17 [3 favorites]
"Conservatism consists of exactly one proposition, to wit: There must be in-groups whom the law protects but does not bind, alongside out-groups whom the law binds but does not protect."
Can you point to any recent case where an Israeli citizen materially benefited from anyone outside of the Israeli state invoking and upholding a provision of international law?
Have the hostages in Gaza received visits from the Red Cross? Hell, my grandfather's survival in 1938 involved blithe and utter disregard for international law as it existed at the time (and multiple violations). My existence is prima facie proof of violations of it.
There are two domains of the law where we don't bother to say that there "must be" in-groups and out-groups. But that there ARE. Immigration law: your rights depend on your ancestry and your longitude/latitude at time of birth. And international law. So don't be surprised that some people and some states are less than reverential towards the concept.
posted by ocschwar at 7:37 PM on September 17 [3 favorites]
Reuters: Gold Apollo says it did not make pagers used in Lebanon explosions:
Taiwan's Gold Apollo did not make the pagers that were used in the detonations in Lebanon on Tuesday, the company's founder Hsu Ching-Kuang told reporters on Wednesday...Hsu said the pagers used in the explosion were made by a company in Europe that had the right to use the Taiwanese firm's brand. "The product was not ours. It was only that it had our brand on it,' he said.
Hsu did not name the company which he said manufactured the pagers, adding Gold Apollo was also a victim of the incident. "We are a responsible company. This is very embarrassing," he said.
Also, about 2/3 of the way down the Times of Israel's article is another store camera view, seen from overhead, where a man puts his pager down on the counter next to a cashier in a burqa before it explodes. The man falls to the ground and the woman cashier puts her hands over her face and runs away. It's not clear if she was injured. That article also has a picture of the young girl who was killed, with this:
The girl was killed when her father’s pager exploded as she was standing beside him, her family and a source close to Hezbollah said.
posted by mediareport at 7:38 PM on September 17 [13 favorites]
Taiwan's Gold Apollo did not make the pagers that were used in the detonations in Lebanon on Tuesday, the company's founder Hsu Ching-Kuang told reporters on Wednesday...Hsu said the pagers used in the explosion were made by a company in Europe that had the right to use the Taiwanese firm's brand. "The product was not ours. It was only that it had our brand on it,' he said.
Hsu did not name the company which he said manufactured the pagers, adding Gold Apollo was also a victim of the incident. "We are a responsible company. This is very embarrassing," he said.
Also, about 2/3 of the way down the Times of Israel's article is another store camera view, seen from overhead, where a man puts his pager down on the counter next to a cashier in a burqa before it explodes. The man falls to the ground and the woman cashier puts her hands over her face and runs away. It's not clear if she was injured. That article also has a picture of the young girl who was killed, with this:
The girl was killed when her father’s pager exploded as she was standing beside him, her family and a source close to Hezbollah said.
posted by mediareport at 7:38 PM on September 17 [13 favorites]
It's just too easy to see *why* I and other Americans have a pro-Israel bias
Don't forget vicarious identification with the Israeli settler project because of the USA's frontier mythos.
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 7:39 PM on September 17 [16 favorites]
Don't forget vicarious identification with the Israeli settler project because of the USA's frontier mythos.
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 7:39 PM on September 17 [16 favorites]
pattern_juggler, to genuinely answer your genuine question: if Hamas could pull this off, to the same degree - explosions so small someone could be holding it to their face and survive - I would consider it a huge improvement from their current MO. Hezbollah's too.
By this logic, there should be no condemnation for unprovoked murders of IDF book keepers or cooks and their families. I thought you were supposed to be chastising the rest of us for not caring about Israeli lives.
posted by pattern juggler at 7:40 PM on September 17 [10 favorites]
By this logic, there should be no condemnation for unprovoked murders of IDF book keepers or cooks and their families. I thought you were supposed to be chastising the rest of us for not caring about Israeli lives.
posted by pattern juggler at 7:40 PM on September 17 [10 favorites]
where an Israeli citizen materially benefited from anyone outside of the Israeli state invoking and upholding a provision of international law
The clue is in the name: "international law". Many Israeli citizens have benefited from those wilful violations, in the form of lands and property unlawfully seized from displaced Palestinians; the application of international law would disadvantage them, but that's really just too bad and maybe they should've stayed home in New Jersey instead of moving to the West Bank.
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 7:42 PM on September 17 [9 favorites]
The clue is in the name: "international law". Many Israeli citizens have benefited from those wilful violations, in the form of lands and property unlawfully seized from displaced Palestinians; the application of international law would disadvantage them, but that's really just too bad and maybe they should've stayed home in New Jersey instead of moving to the West Bank.
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 7:42 PM on September 17 [9 favorites]
Lebanon isn't Gaza. Hezbollah isn't resistance. There's no occupation of Lebanon. They just fire rockets into Israel to kill as many Israeli kids as possible because they also don't want there to be any Israelis.
There have been periodic invasions of Lebanon by Israel since Israel has existed. The government of Israel is currently hollering very loudly for another one. Hizbullah was founded in the wake of one such invasion, with the explicit goal of preventing another one.
posted by adrienneleigh at 7:43 PM on September 17 [29 favorites]
There have been periodic invasions of Lebanon by Israel since Israel has existed. The government of Israel is currently hollering very loudly for another one. Hizbullah was founded in the wake of one such invasion, with the explicit goal of preventing another one.
posted by adrienneleigh at 7:43 PM on September 17 [29 favorites]
Well, then, point to a case. Any case.
Just because you think the term "international law" points at some high ideal doesn't mean that it does.
posted by ocschwar at 7:44 PM on September 17
Just because you think the term "international law" points at some high ideal doesn't mean that it does.
posted by ocschwar at 7:44 PM on September 17
Many Israeli citizens have benefited from those wilful violations
And many Israelis have suffered and died from violations of international law by others. Can you point to any case where international law was invoked and upheld in such a way that an Israeli benefitted?
posted by ocschwar at 7:45 PM on September 17 [1 favorite]
And many Israelis have suffered and died from violations of international law by others. Can you point to any case where international law was invoked and upheld in such a way that an Israeli benefitted?
posted by ocschwar at 7:45 PM on September 17 [1 favorite]
Well, then, point to a case. Any case.
UNGA Resolution 181?
posted by adrienneleigh at 7:46 PM on September 17 [8 favorites]
UNGA Resolution 181?
posted by adrienneleigh at 7:46 PM on September 17 [8 favorites]
I'm so fucking tired of the implicit divison of the world into "parties the US approves of" and "terrorists". Hizbullah is no more and no less legitimate than Likud, except that the US loves one and hates the other.
posted by adrienneleigh at 7:48 PM on September 17 [16 favorites]
posted by adrienneleigh at 7:48 PM on September 17 [16 favorites]
UNGA 181: A nice piece of paper that did nothing to avert a vicious war featuring ethnic cleansing in both directions.
posted by ocschwar at 7:49 PM on September 17
posted by ocschwar at 7:49 PM on September 17
If Israel would like to wash its hands of the UN, i would certainly approve of undoing partition!
posted by adrienneleigh at 7:50 PM on September 17 [9 favorites]
posted by adrienneleigh at 7:50 PM on September 17 [9 favorites]
Jesus, this is some vicious silver shamrocks
-intercept order for pagers
-order indentical pagers
-switch shipment.
why didn't anyone check them out for security reasons.
posted by clavdivs at 7:51 PM on September 17 [3 favorites]
-intercept order for pagers
-order indentical pagers
-switch shipment.
why didn't anyone check them out for security reasons.
posted by clavdivs at 7:51 PM on September 17 [3 favorites]
why didn't anyone check them out for security reasons.
I'm sure no one is going to make that particular mistake again, thankfully!
posted by adrienneleigh at 7:52 PM on September 17 [6 favorites]
I'm sure no one is going to make that particular mistake again, thankfully!
posted by adrienneleigh at 7:52 PM on September 17 [6 favorites]
I've said everything I wanted to say, so I'll bow out now.
It's your own conscience you're trying to drown out with all the yelling. You'd be better off listening to it.
posted by praemunire at 7:52 PM on September 17 [21 favorites]
It's your own conscience you're trying to drown out with all the yelling. You'd be better off listening to it.
posted by praemunire at 7:52 PM on September 17 [21 favorites]
In the substantial majority of cases, international law is the only legal basis for condemnation and punishment of state-sanctioned genocide. If we're reverting to "scrap of paper" theory...wait, we want to revert to "scrap of paper" theory?
posted by praemunire at 7:54 PM on September 17 [8 favorites]
posted by praemunire at 7:54 PM on September 17 [8 favorites]
In the substantial majority of cases, international law is the only legal basis for condemnation and punishment of state-sanctioned genocide. If we're reverting to "scrap of paper" theory...wait, we want to revert to "scrap of paper" theory?
Israel certainly does, and has been demonstrating that quite clearly by deliberately murdering UN personnel (more than 200 since Oct 7, 2023)
posted by adrienneleigh at 7:55 PM on September 17 [15 favorites]
Israel certainly does, and has been demonstrating that quite clearly by deliberately murdering UN personnel (more than 200 since Oct 7, 2023)
posted by adrienneleigh at 7:55 PM on September 17 [15 favorites]
In the substantial majority of cases, international law is the only legal basis for condemnation and punishment of state-sanctioned genocide
And the present body of international law largely exists as a result of and response to WWII in general and Nazi atrocities in particular (it's the reason that the right of conquest is no longer recognised, for instance).
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 7:56 PM on September 17 [11 favorites]
And the present body of international law largely exists as a result of and response to WWII in general and Nazi atrocities in particular (it's the reason that the right of conquest is no longer recognised, for instance).
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 7:56 PM on September 17 [11 favorites]
As to how effective this attack was: i strongly suspect Hizbullah will emerge from this with more power and more volunteer resistance fighters. Whether that is good or bad depends, i suppose, on one's perspective.
posted by adrienneleigh at 7:57 PM on September 17 [7 favorites]
posted by adrienneleigh at 7:57 PM on September 17 [7 favorites]
I know that this is MetaFilter, so everything is about Americans, but there are Jews here too
I'm Jewish as well. Apparently surprisingly, that doesn't mean that I'm in favor of Israel killing children.
posted by Gadarene at 7:57 PM on September 17 [73 favorites]
I'm Jewish as well. Apparently surprisingly, that doesn't mean that I'm in favor of Israel killing children.
posted by Gadarene at 7:57 PM on September 17 [73 favorites]
In the substantial majority of cases, international law is the only legal basis for condemnation and punishment of state-sanctioned genocide.
And the institutions meant to uphold international law are utterly hobbled and used for law fare.
Has international law done a thing for the Uighurs?
Some people are on notice that they will not be protected by international law. Expect them to act accordingly.
posted by ocschwar at 7:57 PM on September 17 [2 favorites]
Some people are on notice that they will not be protected by international law. Expect them to act accordingly.
You mean the Palestinians?
posted by pattern juggler at 7:59 PM on September 17 [28 favorites]
You mean the Palestinians?
posted by pattern juggler at 7:59 PM on September 17 [28 favorites]
Some people are on notice that they will not be protected by international law
Surely you're not talking about Israel, on whose behalf and for whose benefit the USA has vetoed over three dozen UN Security Council resolutions since 1954.
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 8:01 PM on September 17 [33 favorites]
Surely you're not talking about Israel, on whose behalf and for whose benefit the USA has vetoed over three dozen UN Security Council resolutions since 1954.
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 8:01 PM on September 17 [33 favorites]
NYT on its liveblog quotes Iran Revolutionary Guards saying that "Iran’s ambassador to Lebanon, Mojtaba Amini, lost one eye and severely injured his other eye" and "Mr. Amini’s injuries were more serious than Iran initially reported and that he would be medevacked to Tehran for treatment."
posted by mediareport at 8:02 PM on September 17 [4 favorites]
posted by mediareport at 8:02 PM on September 17 [4 favorites]
You mean the Palestinians?
You mean those citizens of the former mandate who were forbidden to be naturalized or establish permanent residence in places where as Ottoman citizens they had to right to travel and reside at will? Forbidden by the Arab league, that is?
ANtoehr case where "international law", in all its majesty, forbids the poor and rich alike from sleeping under bridges.
This is international law: you have the rights you're given by your betters, give thanks if they suffice for your survival, too bad if not.
posted by ocschwar at 8:03 PM on September 17 [3 favorites]
You mean those citizens of the former mandate who were forbidden to be naturalized or establish permanent residence in places where as Ottoman citizens they had to right to travel and reside at will? Forbidden by the Arab league, that is?
ANtoehr case where "international law", in all its majesty, forbids the poor and rich alike from sleeping under bridges.
This is international law: you have the rights you're given by your betters, give thanks if they suffice for your survival, too bad if not.
posted by ocschwar at 8:03 PM on September 17 [3 favorites]
Surely you're not talking about Israel,
Oh, I certainly am talking about Israel. Israelis are protected by realpolitik. Not by international law.
posted by ocschwar at 8:05 PM on September 17 [2 favorites]
Oh, I certainly am talking about Israel. Israelis are protected by realpolitik. Not by international law.
posted by ocschwar at 8:05 PM on September 17 [2 favorites]
This action is the moral and technical precursor to Slaughterbots. (TW scary as shit dystopian near-future short video.)
posted by Winnie the Proust at 8:06 PM on September 17 [2 favorites]
posted by Winnie the Proust at 8:06 PM on September 17 [2 favorites]
You mean those citizens of the former mandate who were forbidden to be naturalized or establish permanent residence in places where as Ottoman citizens they had to right to travel and reside at will? Forbidden by the Arab league, that is?
Yeah, that's them. The ones the poor, victimized state of Israel is currently engaged in genocide against.
posted by pattern juggler at 8:07 PM on September 17 [14 favorites]
Yeah, that's them. The ones the poor, victimized state of Israel is currently engaged in genocide against.
posted by pattern juggler at 8:07 PM on September 17 [14 favorites]
You mean those citizens of the former mandate who were forbidden to be naturalized or establish permanent residence in places where as Ottoman citizens they had to right to travel and reside at will? Forbidden by the Arab league, that is?
What sort of ahistorical bullshit is this? Don't tell me you've bought into the utter nonsense peddled in Joan Peters' fraudulently confected "From Time Immemmorial"? (A fraud that was exposed four decades ago, no less!)
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 8:07 PM on September 17 [16 favorites]
What sort of ahistorical bullshit is this? Don't tell me you've bought into the utter nonsense peddled in Joan Peters' fraudulently confected "From Time Immemmorial"? (A fraud that was exposed four decades ago, no less!)
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 8:07 PM on September 17 [16 favorites]
So we're done talking about the topic of this post and back to the standard recriminations by the same 4 or 5 users? Oh well.
posted by gwint at 8:12 PM on September 17 [29 favorites]
posted by gwint at 8:12 PM on September 17 [29 favorites]
What sort of ahistorical bullshit is this?
Look at a map of the region in 1918. The only border is the one between Ottoman Turkey and Egypt.
Then in 1949 the Arab League decides that people pushed out of the lines of control in the war cannot legally reside anywhere except back where they were pushed from.
I've not read Peters. But I can read a map. Those same Palestinian refugees in Syria and Lebanon in 1949 who could no longer establish residence there, had the right to reside in those same places in 1918.
Another decision of the International community that makes me less than deferential to the concept.
International law does not protect people equally nor does it bind people equally. The will of the international community is no different. Both concepts are used as means and not as ends by all parties to the conflict.
posted by ocschwar at 8:13 PM on September 17 [1 favorite]
Look at a map of the region in 1918. The only border is the one between Ottoman Turkey and Egypt.
Then in 1949 the Arab League decides that people pushed out of the lines of control in the war cannot legally reside anywhere except back where they were pushed from.
I've not read Peters. But I can read a map. Those same Palestinian refugees in Syria and Lebanon in 1949 who could no longer establish residence there, had the right to reside in those same places in 1918.
Another decision of the International community that makes me less than deferential to the concept.
International law does not protect people equally nor does it bind people equally. The will of the international community is no different. Both concepts are used as means and not as ends by all parties to the conflict.
posted by ocschwar at 8:13 PM on September 17 [1 favorite]
Then in 1949 the Arab League decides that people pushed out of the lines of control in the war cannot legally reside anywhere except back where they were pushed from.
Technically speaking that's still Palestinian territory; Israel has no legal claim, because right of conquest, again, is specifically not recognised under international law post-WWII (this is why those territories and those claimed post-1967 and the Golan Heights are designated as "occupied"). Don't know why you have a chip on your shoulder over the concept of "international law", nor do I particularly care (if you have a bug up your ass because international law failed to protect the Jews in 1938? It was reformed after the war in part because of those failings, and certainly isn't protecting the Palestinians now).
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 8:18 PM on September 17 [15 favorites]
Technically speaking that's still Palestinian territory; Israel has no legal claim, because right of conquest, again, is specifically not recognised under international law post-WWII (this is why those territories and those claimed post-1967 and the Golan Heights are designated as "occupied"). Don't know why you have a chip on your shoulder over the concept of "international law", nor do I particularly care (if you have a bug up your ass because international law failed to protect the Jews in 1938? It was reformed after the war in part because of those failings, and certainly isn't protecting the Palestinians now).
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 8:18 PM on September 17 [15 favorites]
So we're done talking about the topic of this post and back to the standard recriminations by the same 4 or 5 users? Oh well.
Eh, I mean if someone is going to say that Israel is permitted to ignore international law because they are uniquely poorly served by it, pointing to their numerous violations of international law that they are protected from punishment for by the US seems pretty relevant to considering the validity of that characterization.
We started with apologists for this act of terrorism claiming it was uniquely targeted and moral, and then falling back to it merely being an act of ongoing war, now we're at the phase where moral and legal norms are decried as unfair to the Israeli military.
posted by pattern juggler at 8:20 PM on September 17 [29 favorites]
Eh, I mean if someone is going to say that Israel is permitted to ignore international law because they are uniquely poorly served by it, pointing to their numerous violations of international law that they are protected from punishment for by the US seems pretty relevant to considering the validity of that characterization.
We started with apologists for this act of terrorism claiming it was uniquely targeted and moral, and then falling back to it merely being an act of ongoing war, now we're at the phase where moral and legal norms are decried as unfair to the Israeli military.
posted by pattern juggler at 8:20 PM on September 17 [29 favorites]
I know that this is MetaFilter, so everything is about Americans, but there are Jews here too,
I would thank you not to put any words into my fucking mouth for me, a staunchly lifelong antizionist American Jew. Israel as a political state should not exist and I have held this belief and had this argument with family and congregation since I was first able to have the words to convey the opinion.
posted by Mizu at 8:21 PM on September 17 [50 favorites]
I would thank you not to put any words into my fucking mouth for me, a staunchly lifelong antizionist American Jew. Israel as a political state should not exist and I have held this belief and had this argument with family and congregation since I was first able to have the words to convey the opinion.
posted by Mizu at 8:21 PM on September 17 [50 favorites]
To be clear:
https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(24)01169-3/fulltext
The lancet (one of the most prestigious medical journals) estimates that 100,000 total excess deaths in Gaza are attributable to the IDF.
That is 5% of the population killed using mass starvation, denial of medical care, and denial of shelter.
There is an overriding need to stop that wanton ethnic cleansing, and pretending that killing 50 Palestinian civilians for every Israeli civilian killed by Hamas is justifiable, is ludicrous.
posted by constraint at 8:21 PM on September 17 [34 favorites]
https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(24)01169-3/fulltext
The lancet (one of the most prestigious medical journals) estimates that 100,000 total excess deaths in Gaza are attributable to the IDF.
That is 5% of the population killed using mass starvation, denial of medical care, and denial of shelter.
There is an overriding need to stop that wanton ethnic cleansing, and pretending that killing 50 Palestinian civilians for every Israeli civilian killed by Hamas is justifiable, is ludicrous.
posted by constraint at 8:21 PM on September 17 [34 favorites]
International law does not protect people equally nor does it bind people equally. The will of the international community is no different. Both concepts are used as means and not as ends by all parties to the conflict.
Yes, as it turns out, it's a human institution, with many flaws and failures to its name, as it is attempting to curb some of humanity's worst inclinations in its worst situations. It's manipulable at the best of times. It's still preferable to indiscriminate slaughter.
But the shamelessness of pretending you give the least little damn about Palestinians--the people you have essentially asserted Israelis have every right to mass murder if they think it's sufficiently in their interests--that truly is breathtaking. I guess this is getting off topic, but you're fooling no one in that regard. This is some stone-age bullshit.
posted by praemunire at 8:23 PM on September 17 [24 favorites]
Yes, as it turns out, it's a human institution, with many flaws and failures to its name, as it is attempting to curb some of humanity's worst inclinations in its worst situations. It's manipulable at the best of times. It's still preferable to indiscriminate slaughter.
But the shamelessness of pretending you give the least little damn about Palestinians--the people you have essentially asserted Israelis have every right to mass murder if they think it's sufficiently in their interests--that truly is breathtaking. I guess this is getting off topic, but you're fooling no one in that regard. This is some stone-age bullshit.
posted by praemunire at 8:23 PM on September 17 [24 favorites]
I know that this is MetaFilter, so everything is about Americans, but there are Jews here too
You say this as if there weren’t millions of Americans who are also Jews. But I can say two things that do not change regardless of whether the lens of identity focuses on my being Jewish, American, or on metafilter:
1. These ends do not justify these means
2. All of the means the Israeli state has been using aren’t aimed toward their stated ends of “self-defense” to begin with, and it’s getting harder and harder to pretend otherwise.
posted by Jon_Evil at 8:23 PM on September 17 [31 favorites]
You say this as if there weren’t millions of Americans who are also Jews. But I can say two things that do not change regardless of whether the lens of identity focuses on my being Jewish, American, or on metafilter:
1. These ends do not justify these means
2. All of the means the Israeli state has been using aren’t aimed toward their stated ends of “self-defense” to begin with, and it’s getting harder and harder to pretend otherwise.
posted by Jon_Evil at 8:23 PM on September 17 [31 favorites]
Ah, yes, no right of conquest.
Such a lovely idea. That way when a conflict is frozen, the people born in the conflict zones get to live their entire livees in a legal limbo that hampers any aspiration they might have. North Cyprus, South Osettia, Transnistria, and other places, all full of human beings who are being born and living out their lives because that is what humans do.
Don't know why you have a chip on your shoulder over the concept of "international law"
If my grandfather respected international law such as it ws in 1938, and the will of the international community, as expressed in the Evian and Bermuda conferences, I would not be here.
If you don't know why I would have a chip on my shoulder, I'll spell it out again:\
international law does not protect people equally nor does it bind people equally.
posted by ocschwar at 8:24 PM on September 17 [3 favorites]
Such a lovely idea. That way when a conflict is frozen, the people born in the conflict zones get to live their entire livees in a legal limbo that hampers any aspiration they might have. North Cyprus, South Osettia, Transnistria, and other places, all full of human beings who are being born and living out their lives because that is what humans do.
Don't know why you have a chip on your shoulder over the concept of "international law"
If my grandfather respected international law such as it ws in 1938, and the will of the international community, as expressed in the Evian and Bermuda conferences, I would not be here.
If you don't know why I would have a chip on my shoulder, I'll spell it out again:\
international law does not protect people equally nor does it bind people equally.
posted by ocschwar at 8:24 PM on September 17 [3 favorites]
The Netherlands has been a center of international law because as a smaller country they need protections from bigger aggressive states.
I think international Law would seem a lot more protective to Israel If we were talking about activities within the 1967 Green line.
posted by CostcoCultist at 8:28 PM on September 17 [3 favorites]
I think international Law would seem a lot more protective to Israel If we were talking about activities within the 1967 Green line.
posted by CostcoCultist at 8:28 PM on September 17 [3 favorites]
international law does not protect people equally nor does it bind people equally.
And rather than doing anything to improve that situation, or work towards a better world, we should definitely just be at our absolute worst at all times. Got it. That'll make everyone safer.
posted by whm at 8:30 PM on September 17 [15 favorites]
And rather than doing anything to improve that situation, or work towards a better world, we should definitely just be at our absolute worst at all times. Got it. That'll make everyone safer.
posted by whm at 8:30 PM on September 17 [15 favorites]
If my grandfather respected international law such as it ws in 1938, and the will of the international community, as expressed in the Evian and Bermuda conferences, I would not be here.
But you are here now, and the fact that Jews collectively experienced the Holocaust doesn't give anyone the right to go to Palestine and exterminate and displace the people already living there who didn't have anything to do with what happened to European Jews. Any more than my French Protestant ancestors (who gave the world the word "refugee") fleeing France under threat of breaking on the wheel or being sold into galley slavery gave them a right to come to the New World and slaughter Native Americans. having been the victim of an injustice in the past doesn't give you a free pass for your actions in the present.
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 8:31 PM on September 17 [44 favorites]
But you are here now, and the fact that Jews collectively experienced the Holocaust doesn't give anyone the right to go to Palestine and exterminate and displace the people already living there who didn't have anything to do with what happened to European Jews. Any more than my French Protestant ancestors (who gave the world the word "refugee") fleeing France under threat of breaking on the wheel or being sold into galley slavery gave them a right to come to the New World and slaughter Native Americans. having been the victim of an injustice in the past doesn't give you a free pass for your actions in the present.
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 8:31 PM on September 17 [44 favorites]
Still catching up, but:
Fuck, let's invite Iran's leaders to Camp David instead. We may not like a lot of what they do, but a thawed relationship with Iran and its allies would be a huge benefit.
Some credit to Obama, that's what he did (in the main). Anyway, guess which state blew up that process?
posted by cendawanita at 8:31 PM on September 17 [16 favorites]
Fuck, let's invite Iran's leaders to Camp David instead. We may not like a lot of what they do, but a thawed relationship with Iran and its allies would be a huge benefit.
Some credit to Obama, that's what he did (in the main). Anyway, guess which state blew up that process?
posted by cendawanita at 8:31 PM on September 17 [16 favorites]
I think when arguing with people who think they can use accusations of antisemitism to distract from holding the IDF and Netanyahu to account, your best bet is to avoid getting bogged down in arguments about geopolitics and history, and just focus on the sheer scale (raw numbers) of the atrocities being committed.
They are engaging in a well practiced rhetorical mode which will just drag you down into the mud with them, and make it impossible to tell what is true and real. So stick to the numbers because that is what they're trying to hide.
posted by constraint at 8:36 PM on September 17 [28 favorites]
They are engaging in a well practiced rhetorical mode which will just drag you down into the mud with them, and make it impossible to tell what is true and real. So stick to the numbers because that is what they're trying to hide.
posted by constraint at 8:36 PM on September 17 [28 favorites]
still catching up, re: corb -
Also you know one generally can’t kill even soldiers who aren’t engaging in battle at the time. Like, it’s not generally acceptable to put bombs in the houses of soldiers to blow them up when they’re out of uniform just as an FYI in case anyone was wondering about the law of war here.
hey, like you know how everyone (sane) was legitimately criticizing Hamas losing control of Oct 7, even though their claim is to kidnap soldiers on duty at the border, because the number of civilians and off-duty soldiers who were taken hostage? where's that same moral clarity?
posted by cendawanita at 8:38 PM on September 17 [8 favorites]
Also you know one generally can’t kill even soldiers who aren’t engaging in battle at the time. Like, it’s not generally acceptable to put bombs in the houses of soldiers to blow them up when they’re out of uniform just as an FYI in case anyone was wondering about the law of war here.
hey, like you know how everyone (sane) was legitimately criticizing Hamas losing control of Oct 7, even though their claim is to kidnap soldiers on duty at the border, because the number of civilians and off-duty soldiers who were taken hostage? where's that same moral clarity?
posted by cendawanita at 8:38 PM on September 17 [8 favorites]
I almost said this attack doesn't do anything to make a single Israeli safer. But that isn't true.
There is one Israeli who would be much safer with a regional war and Trump in the White House.
But for your average Israeli who gets sent to get blown to bits in an avoidable war or gets blown up by terror attacks launched for the consumption of internal observers, to show Hezbollah is still politically relevant and formidable, this is nothing but the prelude to more suffering, whether they realize it or not. Like the US after 9/11, playing the righteous victim is very gratifying, right up until you have to deal with the consequences.
posted by pattern juggler at 8:39 PM on September 17 [12 favorites]
There is one Israeli who would be much safer with a regional war and Trump in the White House.
But for your average Israeli who gets sent to get blown to bits in an avoidable war or gets blown up by terror attacks launched for the consumption of internal observers, to show Hezbollah is still politically relevant and formidable, this is nothing but the prelude to more suffering, whether they realize it or not. Like the US after 9/11, playing the righteous victim is very gratifying, right up until you have to deal with the consequences.
posted by pattern juggler at 8:39 PM on September 17 [12 favorites]
Criminy, we really don’t do Israel well on MetaFilter.
posted by lostburner at 8:45 PM on September 17 [9 favorites]
posted by lostburner at 8:45 PM on September 17 [9 favorites]
we really don’t do Israel well on MetaFilter
Things have very significantly improved from the old days when anything other than toeing the line of what some have called "compulsory Zionism" would lead to deletions and adminitions to refrain from commenting on the topic in the future, quite honestly.
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 8:50 PM on September 17 [24 favorites]
Things have very significantly improved from the old days when anything other than toeing the line of what some have called "compulsory Zionism" would lead to deletions and adminitions to refrain from commenting on the topic in the future, quite honestly.
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 8:50 PM on September 17 [24 favorites]
I don't think there is a way to do Israel well.
posted by CostcoCultist at 8:50 PM on September 17 [8 favorites]
posted by CostcoCultist at 8:50 PM on September 17 [8 favorites]
Claiming that people don't think Israel has a right to defend themselves when they are discussing "Does Israel have the right to do this to defend themselves?" is a bad-faith derail and should not be allowed.
Israel has the right to do some things and not others to defend itself; what we are discussing is whether they have the right to do this or not. I do not think Israel has the right to do this kind of terrorist bombing assassination of off-duty soldiers and their civilian families and neighbors. This is a terrorist attack and should be condemned as such.
I'm aware that Hezbollah and the United States also do terrorist stuff like this, and I condemn that as well.
posted by straight at 8:57 PM on September 17 [45 favorites]
Israel has the right to do some things and not others to defend itself; what we are discussing is whether they have the right to do this or not. I do not think Israel has the right to do this kind of terrorist bombing assassination of off-duty soldiers and their civilian families and neighbors. This is a terrorist attack and should be condemned as such.
I'm aware that Hezbollah and the United States also do terrorist stuff like this, and I condemn that as well.
posted by straight at 8:57 PM on September 17 [45 favorites]
I got a curious report from 2011 about the owner of the "Gold Apollo" brand of pagers (article in Chinese)
The article states that most of its products are ordered by "intelligence, emergency-response, and defense [organizations] in Europe and America". The company appears to be focused on these 'niche' sectors and demand for customized products rather than on the consumer markets. Gold Apollo notably did not set up its manufacturing subsidiaries in China, and it "chose to stay in Taiwan" while relying on OEMs (presumably the "European company" cited by Gold Apollo owner as the manufacturer [upthread link] was one of them). It was still in the civilian market for restaurants (the kind of devices used for taking and managing orders).
I'm not sure how the company has fared since then. But in any case if it's still in the market as a supplier for Western law-enforcement and defense, it's no "random manufacturer" and the shenanigans are even deeper than expected.
posted by runcifex at 9:01 PM on September 17 [15 favorites]
The article states that most of its products are ordered by "intelligence, emergency-response, and defense [organizations] in Europe and America". The company appears to be focused on these 'niche' sectors and demand for customized products rather than on the consumer markets. Gold Apollo notably did not set up its manufacturing subsidiaries in China, and it "chose to stay in Taiwan" while relying on OEMs (presumably the "European company" cited by Gold Apollo owner as the manufacturer [upthread link] was one of them). It was still in the civilian market for restaurants (the kind of devices used for taking and managing orders).
I'm not sure how the company has fared since then. But in any case if it's still in the market as a supplier for Western law-enforcement and defense, it's no "random manufacturer" and the shenanigans are even deeper than expected.
posted by runcifex at 9:01 PM on September 17 [15 favorites]
Hard to see this as anything but an act of terrorism. I am very much interested in hearing from the Biden Administration, because this is some no-win bullshit if I've ever seen it.
I am skeptical of the NYT's narrative in any of this. That newspaper has changed recently, and is no longer a source I accept at face value anymore.
Netanyahu needs to be held accountable for this travesty. Regardless of the targets, the tactic is really, really messed up. Like "the genie is out of the bottle now" messed up.
This is an historic event that will have ramifications far beyond the immediate aftermath.
posted by Chuffy at 9:15 PM on September 17 [7 favorites]
I am skeptical of the NYT's narrative in any of this. That newspaper has changed recently, and is no longer a source I accept at face value anymore.
Netanyahu needs to be held accountable for this travesty. Regardless of the targets, the tactic is really, really messed up. Like "the genie is out of the bottle now" messed up.
This is an historic event that will have ramifications far beyond the immediate aftermath.
posted by Chuffy at 9:15 PM on September 17 [7 favorites]
This is simply staggering in terms of its audacity, inhumanity, scale, and ingenuity.
It’s a William Gibson Cyberpunk fever dream come to life.
. (for the innocents harmed or killed by this)
posted by inflatablekiwi at 9:19 PM on September 17 [12 favorites]
It’s a William Gibson Cyberpunk fever dream come to life.
. (for the innocents harmed or killed by this)
posted by inflatablekiwi at 9:19 PM on September 17 [12 favorites]
I am very much interested in hearing from the Biden Administration
Yes, I am also looking forward, especially from the man himself. It doesn't directly involve Palestinians, so his eyesight should be good. OTOH Lebanese people are still Arabs and if Israel killed them he's historically compelled to find it good and justified.
posted by cendawanita at 9:21 PM on September 17 [9 favorites]
Yes, I am also looking forward, especially from the man himself. It doesn't directly involve Palestinians, so his eyesight should be good. OTOH Lebanese people are still Arabs and if Israel killed them he's historically compelled to find it good and justified.
posted by cendawanita at 9:21 PM on September 17 [9 favorites]
as I see it the technology to master an unprecedented attack suck as this is a warning to ALL of us
Who controls that phone you hold in YOUR hand?
posted by robbyrobs at 9:42 PM on September 17 [1 favorite]
Who controls that phone you hold in YOUR hand?
posted by robbyrobs at 9:42 PM on September 17 [1 favorite]
What do people here think would be an acceptable Israeli response to attacks from Hezbollah?
posted by Nancy Lebovitz at 9:46 PM on September 17 [4 favorites]
posted by Nancy Lebovitz at 9:46 PM on September 17 [4 favorites]
... Have Israel stopped the (actually) accurate airstrikes into apartments in Beirut?
posted by cendawanita at 9:47 PM on September 17 [7 favorites]
posted by cendawanita at 9:47 PM on September 17 [7 favorites]
(that itself is also an international law violation but, ya know, self-defence means violating borders, apparently.)
posted by cendawanita at 9:48 PM on September 17 [6 favorites]
posted by cendawanita at 9:48 PM on September 17 [6 favorites]
with a lower civilian casualty rate than a single Hezbollah rocket attack
This is some self serving bullshit logic. A single Hezbollah rocket attack does not injure hundreds. It does not hit a smaller proportion of on duty military personnel (however many pager victims were Hezbollah, how many were actively on duty? If we're applying the logic that duty didn't matter, how many Israeli civilians killed by ticket fire are reservists or have been part of settler militias? So why are they not just off duty personnel in the same way?) and even then, it's not like rate is everything. A bomb that kills ten thousand soldiers and ten thousand civilians is a better 'rate' than one that kills four soldiers and five civilians, but it's still an incomparably bigger crime.
No single Hezbollah rocket attack has the same casualties.
posted by Dysk at 9:48 PM on September 17 [17 favorites]
This is some self serving bullshit logic. A single Hezbollah rocket attack does not injure hundreds. It does not hit a smaller proportion of on duty military personnel (however many pager victims were Hezbollah, how many were actively on duty? If we're applying the logic that duty didn't matter, how many Israeli civilians killed by ticket fire are reservists or have been part of settler militias? So why are they not just off duty personnel in the same way?) and even then, it's not like rate is everything. A bomb that kills ten thousand soldiers and ten thousand civilians is a better 'rate' than one that kills four soldiers and five civilians, but it's still an incomparably bigger crime.
No single Hezbollah rocket attack has the same casualties.
posted by Dysk at 9:48 PM on September 17 [17 favorites]
Sarah Vazifeh Dar, over on Twitter, has two pictures of the beautiful little girl who was blown up. Her name was Fatemeh Jafar Abdullah.
posted by adrienneleigh at 9:50 PM on September 17 [16 favorites]
posted by adrienneleigh at 9:50 PM on September 17 [16 favorites]
(If you're in here arguing that she was acceptable collateral damage, you should at least have to look at her.)
posted by adrienneleigh at 9:52 PM on September 17 [37 favorites]
posted by adrienneleigh at 9:52 PM on September 17 [37 favorites]
History does not reapeat itself it rhymes
Farther west 1933 Italy invades Ethiopia and the world just watched as atrocities were unleashed
Go farther back the byzantine empire
It just goes on........
posted by robbyrobs at 9:55 PM on September 17 [1 favorite]
Farther west 1933 Italy invades Ethiopia and the world just watched as atrocities were unleashed
Go farther back the byzantine empire
It just goes on........
posted by robbyrobs at 9:55 PM on September 17 [1 favorite]
Israel is of no benefit to the US as a partner beyond historical associations
…this is not entirely true. The US and Israel have had a deeply fraught relationship over the decades (ahem, USS Fucking Liberty??! Remember that? No, of course you fucking don’t), but Israel has been surpassingly great at killing peoples the US wanted to kill at a bit of a remove, when both parties benefit. Gerald Bull, for example.
From a realpolitik perspective, a perfectly predictable player is more valuable than an actual ally. You both know where you stand, you both weigh the advantages, and you both make your predictable moves.
…except when outside-context maneuvers, like this, are made.
Then it all goes out the window.
posted by aramaic at 9:55 PM on September 17 [4 favorites]
…this is not entirely true. The US and Israel have had a deeply fraught relationship over the decades (ahem, USS Fucking Liberty??! Remember that? No, of course you fucking don’t), but Israel has been surpassingly great at killing peoples the US wanted to kill at a bit of a remove, when both parties benefit. Gerald Bull, for example.
From a realpolitik perspective, a perfectly predictable player is more valuable than an actual ally. You both know where you stand, you both weigh the advantages, and you both make your predictable moves.
…except when outside-context maneuvers, like this, are made.
Then it all goes out the window.
posted by aramaic at 9:55 PM on September 17 [4 favorites]
> What do people here think would be an acceptable Israeli response to attacks from Hezbollah?
I don't think we need to answer that. That's a whataboutism.
posted by constraint at 10:06 PM on September 17 [24 favorites]
I don't think we need to answer that. That's a whataboutism.
posted by constraint at 10:06 PM on September 17 [24 favorites]
> This action seems designed to make war an inevitability. What a horror.
> There is one Israeli who would be much safer with a regional war and Trump in the White House.
-Israel rattled by talk that Netanyahu may replace defence minister
-Israel business leaders urge Netanyahu to keep defence chief Gallant
-Israeli minister says time running out for diplomatic solution with Hezbollah in Lebanon (9/16)
Israel sets new war goal of returning residents to the north - "The latest Israeli move marks an expansion of the country's previously stated war goals..." (Palestinian poll finds big drop in support for Oct 7 attack)
Israeli Budget Brawl Shows Gaza War Splintering the Nation - "The ultra-Orthodox and West Bank settlers are not only his core constituencies but also pivotal partners in his governing coalition. Balancing the budget by squeezing them could be political suicide. But if there's no budget by March, the government, by law, ceases to exist. So as the budget struggle intensifies, it offers a lens through which to view Israel's escalating crises over security, prosperity and identity."
Students describe attack by settlers on West Bank elementary school - "Half of the pupils stayed away from classes at an elementary school in the Israeli-occupied West Bank on Tuesday, a day after it was attacked by Jewish settlers with wooden bats in violence that has surged since the Gaza war erupted... A video filmed by Israeli activists and posted on social media showed a band of young men striking people who were screaming in the yard of Al-Ka'abneh school during the assault in a Bedouin area near Jericho on Monday."
posted by kliuless at 10:44 PM on September 17 [21 favorites]
> There is one Israeli who would be much safer with a regional war and Trump in the White House.
-Israel rattled by talk that Netanyahu may replace defence minister
-Israel business leaders urge Netanyahu to keep defence chief Gallant
-Israeli minister says time running out for diplomatic solution with Hezbollah in Lebanon (9/16)
Israel sets new war goal of returning residents to the north - "The latest Israeli move marks an expansion of the country's previously stated war goals..." (Palestinian poll finds big drop in support for Oct 7 attack)
Israeli Budget Brawl Shows Gaza War Splintering the Nation - "The ultra-Orthodox and West Bank settlers are not only his core constituencies but also pivotal partners in his governing coalition. Balancing the budget by squeezing them could be political suicide. But if there's no budget by March, the government, by law, ceases to exist. So as the budget struggle intensifies, it offers a lens through which to view Israel's escalating crises over security, prosperity and identity."
Hundreds of thousands of citizens took to the streets in anguish and anger at Netanyahu for his failure to obtain a cease-fire that could have brought the hostages home. Such rallies continue weekly, and part of Israelis’ rage is fed by the sense that if Netanyahu hadn’t brought Finance Minister Bezalel Smotrich and National Security Minister Itamar Ben Gvir into his coalition, a Hamas deal would have already been signed. The two ministers, both hard-right West Bank settlers, not only reject yielding any territory to Palestinians, they also oppose any compromise over the war against Hamas, even to bring back the remaining hostages. They’ve repeatedly claimed that if their red lines are crossed, they’ll walk out of the government. On a deal with Hamas, Smotrich said recently: “I very much want to get the hostages back, but I’m not prepared to commit collective suicide for it.”How far-right minister Itamar Ben-Gvir weaponised Israel's police - "The defender of Jewish settlers was once a fringe figure. Now he is shaping internal security in a time of war."
Against this backdrop, on Sept. 3, Smotrich offered the outlines of his proposed 2025 budget. To the surprise of many, Smotrich spoke on the budget with what appeared to be caution and responsibility. He said the country would switch to funding its inflated war bills through cutbacks and taxes rather than piling on debt. “We’ll aim for a 4% target deficit and make permanent adjustments totaling 35 billion shekels [$9.3 billion] to sustain that,” he said. Netanyahu has given Smotrich a go-ahead. Now the question is how Smotrich’s choices will be viewed by competing sectors, notably the ultra-Orthodox on one side and the trade unionists on the other.
Yet Smotrich’s plan to freeze public-sector salaries and welfare allowances presents major challenges, Hershkovith says. The former requires the main labor federation to agree, which is most unlikely... The ultra-Orthodox, also known as Haredim, could also scuttle a deal. They thought they were joining a dream coalition 21 months ago, but it’s turned into a massive disappointment for them. The goal was a government that fed its seminaries, boosted its welfare allowances and kept its young men free of army service to study. Yet the Supreme Court recently overturned the exemption—a ruling heavily supported by the public...
Mazal Mualem, a critical biographer of Netanyahu, says she suspects that when the deadline arrives, the prime minister will figure out the budget. “Netanyahu understands that an economic collapse will mark the end of his political career,” she says.
Others are worried. “Netanyahu is waiting to see what happens, like who wins the US election,” in the belief that Donald Trump will grant him greater freedom of action than Kamala Harris, says Meirav Arlosoroff, an analyst who writes for business daily The Marker. He may then decide whether to waive the budget and call an election or go with a less rigorous fiscal plan, hoping markets will forgive him during a time of war.
Students describe attack by settlers on West Bank elementary school - "Half of the pupils stayed away from classes at an elementary school in the Israeli-occupied West Bank on Tuesday, a day after it was attacked by Jewish settlers with wooden bats in violence that has surged since the Gaza war erupted... A video filmed by Israeli activists and posted on social media showed a band of young men striking people who were screaming in the yard of Al-Ka'abneh school during the assault in a Bedouin area near Jericho on Monday."
posted by kliuless at 10:44 PM on September 17 [21 favorites]
> What do people here think would be an acceptable Israeli response to attacks from Hezbollah?
> I don't think we need to answer that. That's a whataboutism.
I don't think it's whataboutism. Hezbollah does attack Israel. People want to defend themselves. We should strongly state: we think it is unethical to make any attack, anywhere, which indiscriminately hurts non-combatants and combatants alike. We condemn rocket attacks on non-combatants, yes, but that is not the subject of this thread. In this thread we are condemning indiscriminate booby-trap bombing carried out outside of combat in the midst of civilian populations, without any intel observing the targets. Such attacks are unethical.
So, what kinds of actions are acceptable responses to attacks from Hezbollah? The kind which are sanctioned under international law. It is permissible to attack enemies who are actively, directly, in the process of trying to hurt you. That does not include people out-of-uniform, shopping for groceries, just because they happen to belong to an enemy organization and want to hurt you. Yes, that guy might hurt you later. Sorry. It's not okay to kill him now. It. Just. Isn't.
There is another comment to be made about the ineffectiveness of death squads/drones/terror killing as a strategy--the U.S. has been trying it for decades, and it never achieves our strategic goals. But I don't have the energy for that comment now, and besides, I want to stick to the ethics point, here. The point is, you can't do pre-crime. You can only fight people who are actively fighting you. I know that it sometimes puts you at a disadvantage. It sucks. But being good people means sometimes paying terrible costs to do what is right.
posted by agentofselection at 10:53 PM on September 17 [30 favorites]
> I don't think we need to answer that. That's a whataboutism.
I don't think it's whataboutism. Hezbollah does attack Israel. People want to defend themselves. We should strongly state: we think it is unethical to make any attack, anywhere, which indiscriminately hurts non-combatants and combatants alike. We condemn rocket attacks on non-combatants, yes, but that is not the subject of this thread. In this thread we are condemning indiscriminate booby-trap bombing carried out outside of combat in the midst of civilian populations, without any intel observing the targets. Such attacks are unethical.
So, what kinds of actions are acceptable responses to attacks from Hezbollah? The kind which are sanctioned under international law. It is permissible to attack enemies who are actively, directly, in the process of trying to hurt you. That does not include people out-of-uniform, shopping for groceries, just because they happen to belong to an enemy organization and want to hurt you. Yes, that guy might hurt you later. Sorry. It's not okay to kill him now. It. Just. Isn't.
There is another comment to be made about the ineffectiveness of death squads/drones/terror killing as a strategy--the U.S. has been trying it for decades, and it never achieves our strategic goals. But I don't have the energy for that comment now, and besides, I want to stick to the ethics point, here. The point is, you can't do pre-crime. You can only fight people who are actively fighting you. I know that it sometimes puts you at a disadvantage. It sucks. But being good people means sometimes paying terrible costs to do what is right.
posted by agentofselection at 10:53 PM on September 17 [30 favorites]
Someone's kid could have been playing with a pager
Another child is dead, in fact. To be clear: A nation state did this, and the only such state that has means, motive, and opportunity is Israel. The United States needs to do all in its power to remove Netanyahu from power, as soon as humanly possible, by whatever means possible.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 10:58 PM on September 17 [8 favorites]
Another child is dead, in fact. To be clear: A nation state did this, and the only such state that has means, motive, and opportunity is Israel. The United States needs to do all in its power to remove Netanyahu from power, as soon as humanly possible, by whatever means possible.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 10:58 PM on September 17 [8 favorites]
During the Trump administration, he leaked a bunch of of classified information involving Israel spying for the U.S. in the Middle East. I've assumed ever since that this is why the U.S. won't take a hard line: we rely on their intel in the region.
posted by Threeve at 11:09 PM on September 17 [3 favorites]
posted by Threeve at 11:09 PM on September 17 [3 favorites]
Israel sets new war goal of returning residents to the north -
I believe most of these are settlers, and internationally, this "north" isn't recognized as part of Israel's territories (still need diplomatic negotiations, like Egypt and Jordan). In BBC fashion, this detail isn't clarified in the article, so can't be sure how many of these residents are in Israel proper (such as it is).
----
With Israel 'Emboldened,' Washington Braces For Fresh Middle East Bloodshed In Lebanon
Back in June. Don't know if this (unshared-until-after) attack changes the calculations.
As Israel’s chief military and diplomatic backer, the U.S. has the most influence of any outside party over its decisions, and is widely perceived as implicated in them. At the same time, it’s Israel that analysts and officials see as more likely to initiate a full-scale war, because Hezbollah has indicated through its statements and relatively measured attacks that it wants to keep the fighting limited.
Such a conflict could rapidly escalate, and if the two sides start pummeling each other and causing huge damage, the U.S. and Hezbollah’s chief supporter, Iran, will face major pressure to get involved. Tehran and Washington already oppose each other’s regional presence, and in Iraq and Syria, U.S. forces and Iran-backed fighters are in close proximity, raising the human stakes of heightened tensions. A top pro-Iran militia in Iraq recently indicated that should Hezbollah face attacks, it would target U.S. interests.
(...) “We have let Israel face zero consequences for crossing all of our red lines in Gaza so they are emboldened and know they will face no consequences for going into Lebanon, despite us saying, ‘Don’t go there,’” argued the Defense Department official.
If Israel assumes it has full-tilt American support, it could deem it is best to try to weaken Hezbollah now, while many local civilians are out of the central part of the prospective war zone.
Biden is “pushing to not engage [in a war] but our saying ‘We will support Israel’ I don’t believe is helping,” another State Department official told HuffPost.
posted by cendawanita at 11:09 PM on September 17 [6 favorites]
I believe most of these are settlers, and internationally, this "north" isn't recognized as part of Israel's territories (still need diplomatic negotiations, like Egypt and Jordan). In BBC fashion, this detail isn't clarified in the article, so can't be sure how many of these residents are in Israel proper (such as it is).
----
With Israel 'Emboldened,' Washington Braces For Fresh Middle East Bloodshed In Lebanon
Back in June. Don't know if this (unshared-until-after) attack changes the calculations.
As Israel’s chief military and diplomatic backer, the U.S. has the most influence of any outside party over its decisions, and is widely perceived as implicated in them. At the same time, it’s Israel that analysts and officials see as more likely to initiate a full-scale war, because Hezbollah has indicated through its statements and relatively measured attacks that it wants to keep the fighting limited.
Such a conflict could rapidly escalate, and if the two sides start pummeling each other and causing huge damage, the U.S. and Hezbollah’s chief supporter, Iran, will face major pressure to get involved. Tehran and Washington already oppose each other’s regional presence, and in Iraq and Syria, U.S. forces and Iran-backed fighters are in close proximity, raising the human stakes of heightened tensions. A top pro-Iran militia in Iraq recently indicated that should Hezbollah face attacks, it would target U.S. interests.
(...) “We have let Israel face zero consequences for crossing all of our red lines in Gaza so they are emboldened and know they will face no consequences for going into Lebanon, despite us saying, ‘Don’t go there,’” argued the Defense Department official.
If Israel assumes it has full-tilt American support, it could deem it is best to try to weaken Hezbollah now, while many local civilians are out of the central part of the prospective war zone.
Biden is “pushing to not engage [in a war] but our saying ‘We will support Israel’ I don’t believe is helping,” another State Department official told HuffPost.
posted by cendawanita at 11:09 PM on September 17 [6 favorites]
My (Jewish) wife volunteers here in Aoteoroa settling refugees - she's settled multiple multi-generational multi-refugees - one set of Palestinians' grandparents were driven into Syria in '47 in the Nakba and are now refugees from the Syrian war, another set were Afghani whose grandparents were driven into Iran to escape the Russian invaders and had been living in refugee camps for 2 generations.
It seems that giving citizenship to displaced peoples is common, it's not just Palestinians
posted by mbo at 11:09 PM on September 17 [1 favorite]
It seems that giving citizenship to displaced peoples is common, it's not just Palestinians
posted by mbo at 11:09 PM on September 17 [1 favorite]
Yeah, it is really astonishing to watch how some people condemning attacks on off duty soldiers in their homes when they are Israeli soldiers are somehow okay with it when they’re Arabs. It’s fucking gross, honestly, and I am just no longer going to engage with those people and will instead move to what the fuck we are going to do about this cyberpunk hell we are now living in.
posted by corb at 11:10 PM on September 17 [22 favorites]
posted by corb at 11:10 PM on September 17 [22 favorites]
Just my personal reaction but I find news of this to be abhorrent and disgusting. It is chilling. In an enlightened world there would be strong international condemnation of this sort of tactic done in the name of warfare.
posted by polymodus at 11:12 PM on September 17 [8 favorites]
posted by polymodus at 11:12 PM on September 17 [8 favorites]
Israeli state terrorism is turning the world from “let’s have a two state solution” to “abolish this backward apartheid state”. I know where I stand.
posted by iamck at 11:16 PM on September 17 [25 favorites]
posted by iamck at 11:16 PM on September 17 [25 favorites]
I am very much interested in hearing from the Biden Administration
You can hear from White House resident ghoul Matthew Miller here with a lot of nothing. Remember what Harris said, “Israel has a right to defend itself”, even if it means terrorist attacks on children.
posted by iamck at 11:26 PM on September 17 [5 favorites]
You can hear from White House resident ghoul Matthew Miller here with a lot of nothing. Remember what Harris said, “Israel has a right to defend itself”, even if it means terrorist attacks on children.
posted by iamck at 11:26 PM on September 17 [5 favorites]
What do people here think would be an acceptable Israeli response to attacks from Hezbollah?
Facestiously: 1967 borders. More seriously, an end to unequivocally illegal settlements.
Does Ukraine have a right to attack Russia because they occupy Crimea? If so, why are attacks on Israel different?
posted by Dysk at 11:36 PM on September 17 [23 favorites]
Facestiously: 1967 borders. More seriously, an end to unequivocally illegal settlements.
Does Ukraine have a right to attack Russia because they occupy Crimea? If so, why are attacks on Israel different?
posted by Dysk at 11:36 PM on September 17 [23 favorites]
What I really fear about this, more than just the atrocity, more than the efforts of Israel to provoke a regional war, is that this is the opening of a new dimension of terrorism that will increasingly spread globally. Think about the guard wealth costs that come from having to triple check every consumer electronic, every vial of medicine, against explosives and poisons.
Even those who are defending Israel today will mourn when we see these techniques copied, reproduced, and used against the consumers of western nations.
I fear that, along with swarms of murder drones programmed to target key demographic slices, this is part of the emerging horror of the 21st century.
posted by LeRoienJaune at 11:40 PM on September 17 [19 favorites]
Even those who are defending Israel today will mourn when we see these techniques copied, reproduced, and used against the consumers of western nations.
I fear that, along with swarms of murder drones programmed to target key demographic slices, this is part of the emerging horror of the 21st century.
posted by LeRoienJaune at 11:40 PM on September 17 [19 favorites]
What I really fear about this, more than just the atrocity, more than the efforts of Israel to provoke a regional war, is that this is the opening of a new dimension of terrorism that will increasingly spread globally. Think about the guard wealth costs that come from having to triple check every consumer electronic, every vial of medicine, against explosives and poisons.
Oh, it won't just be "terrorists". The imperial boomerang means it'll be your own government, too, eventually, if you step a toe out of line.
posted by adrienneleigh at 11:50 PM on September 17 [14 favorites]
Oh, it won't just be "terrorists". The imperial boomerang means it'll be your own government, too, eventually, if you step a toe out of line.
posted by adrienneleigh at 11:50 PM on September 17 [14 favorites]
What do people here think would be an acceptable Israeli Hezbollah response to attacks from Hezbollah Israel?
posted by iamck at 12:30 AM on September 18 [11 favorites]
posted by iamck at 12:30 AM on September 18 [11 favorites]
The technological implications are indeed horrifying, and what's worse, the 1000+ comments in Hacker News thread on this is evidence that American tech industry still has roughly zero clue when they really ought to know better.
posted by polymodus at 12:52 AM on September 18 [6 favorites]
posted by polymodus at 12:52 AM on September 18 [6 favorites]
Hezbollah themselves said it was a targeted attack - “pagers belonging to employees of various Hezbollah units and institutions exploded” and have previously told their members to use their pagers instead of cellphones due to security concerns - Al Jazeera
What's missing in this discourse is that these weren't random soldiers or bureaucrats. Hezbollah claims 100,000 to 150,000 fighters in its organization. These pagers are for secure communication of secret and sensitive information - you wouldn't be handing them out to every random fighter you sign up in case of leaks, they would go to the top 2% most senior and well connected leaders and players in the organization.
Including Iran's ambassador to Lebanon, who apparently has Hezbollah's leadership on speed-dial.
Given the pagers contained such secret information that Hezbollah had to switch away from using cellphones, it's certain that they would be closely safeguarded and not left unattended or in the possession of someone else. It's impossible to get a more specifically targeted attack than this. The alternative which I keep see mentioned - putting a tracking device - and then what, using a missile or bomb strike on each person - is guaranteed to cause more collateral.
posted by xdvesper at 1:01 AM on September 18 [4 favorites]
What's missing in this discourse is that these weren't random soldiers or bureaucrats. Hezbollah claims 100,000 to 150,000 fighters in its organization. These pagers are for secure communication of secret and sensitive information - you wouldn't be handing them out to every random fighter you sign up in case of leaks, they would go to the top 2% most senior and well connected leaders and players in the organization.
Including Iran's ambassador to Lebanon, who apparently has Hezbollah's leadership on speed-dial.
Given the pagers contained such secret information that Hezbollah had to switch away from using cellphones, it's certain that they would be closely safeguarded and not left unattended or in the possession of someone else. It's impossible to get a more specifically targeted attack than this. The alternative which I keep see mentioned - putting a tracking device - and then what, using a missile or bomb strike on each person - is guaranteed to cause more collateral.
posted by xdvesper at 1:01 AM on September 18 [4 favorites]
I don't even play a military expert on tv but I find that reasoning weak - even in the quoted bits doesn't indicate that all the -linked institutions are the paramilitary wing. We're seeing evidence the injured include healthcare workers who do need to use pagers. Even if so, it's a war crime to go after them when not in active combat. In that very article it states a girl is killed (I've now seen reports of two). And the givens are weak. Pager tech is so basic it had to do a one-size-fits-all signal to initiate the explosions. The basic tech was to circumvent Israeli tapping. If we want to do givens, and considering how long it's been in use then it's even more likely the pagers themselves are fairly loosely distributed (as long you're in the community) as it becomes normalized and a 'Hezb thing' to do. It's also a given that once Israel feels that they can act with impunity their collateral damage calculation completely goes off the rails. Lebanon is now seeing Palestine-level threat assessment (everyone is dead and injured must be Hezb). The western public info ecosystem now has delegitimized info sources that's not from Israel, but Israel itself has been fingered by the US Blob people as having spectacularly shoddy intelligence.
posted by cendawanita at 1:17 AM on September 18 [19 favorites]
posted by cendawanita at 1:17 AM on September 18 [19 favorites]
While there's a lack of clarity about exactly who made the pagers, it seems like Gold Apollo has an excellent case for suing the ever living fuck out of Israel for the (likely fatal) damage done to the company's ability to do business moving forward. While I've never heard of them before now, there's absolutely no way in hell I'd ever buy anything from them, or anyone they're tangentially related to now.
It's absolutely absurd to hope for some kind of Al Capone arrested for tax evasion ending to the genocide in Gaza, but since it's clear Israel won't stop on it's own, and the US isn't remotely going to stop enabling Israel, fuck, how else does this end?
posted by Ghidorah at 1:19 AM on September 18 [8 favorites]
It's absolutely absurd to hope for some kind of Al Capone arrested for tax evasion ending to the genocide in Gaza, but since it's clear Israel won't stop on it's own, and the US isn't remotely going to stop enabling Israel, fuck, how else does this end?
posted by Ghidorah at 1:19 AM on September 18 [8 favorites]
Taiwan drawn into Middle East politics after deadly pager blasts in Lebanon
Taiwanese tech company Gold Apollo on Wednesday denied that it had manufactured the AR-924 model pagers that exploded en masse in Lebanon, saying they had been made by a European company named BAC through a licensing deal.
Poor Taiwan - Biden better remembers there are other states who need him under actual threat. *Goes off to check the skin colour chart*
posted by cendawanita at 1:25 AM on September 18 [8 favorites]
Taiwanese tech company Gold Apollo on Wednesday denied that it had manufactured the AR-924 model pagers that exploded en masse in Lebanon, saying they had been made by a European company named BAC through a licensing deal.
Poor Taiwan - Biden better remembers there are other states who need him under actual threat. *Goes off to check the skin colour chart*
posted by cendawanita at 1:25 AM on September 18 [8 favorites]
What's missing from this discourse is this is a war crime and thus Israel/Netanyahu are the wrong side of history to be rationalizing the details and carrying water for.
Even if nobody was killed, it is the method that is the crime. That's missing from the discourse: a higher standard of critical thinking. "It doesn't have to be this way".
posted by polymodus at 1:26 AM on September 18 [27 favorites]
Even if nobody was killed, it is the method that is the crime. That's missing from the discourse: a higher standard of critical thinking. "It doesn't have to be this way".
posted by polymodus at 1:26 AM on September 18 [27 favorites]
Reuters is reporting the pagers were manufactured under license by a Budapest-based company called BAC Consulting (whose website appears to be down). Of the 5000 units that Hezbollah ordered about 3000 exploded, having approximately 3 grams of explosive planted in each of them by Mossad months ago "at the production level".
posted by theory at 1:49 AM on September 18 [9 favorites]
posted by theory at 1:49 AM on September 18 [9 favorites]
Of course it's possible that Gold Apollo made the pagers and BAC 'upgraded' them (maybe private labelled)
They sold 5000, 3000 blew up ..... no one's going to want to buy anything from Gold Apollo now because it might be one of those remaining 2000
posted by mbo at 2:18 AM on September 18 [2 favorites]
They sold 5000, 3000 blew up ..... no one's going to want to buy anything from Gold Apollo now because it might be one of those remaining 2000
posted by mbo at 2:18 AM on September 18 [2 favorites]
This is some real CIA-style cowboy shit. And that worked so well to stabilize South America and the Middle East in the Seventies and Eighties.
posted by sixswitch at 2:20 AM on September 18 [20 favorites]
posted by sixswitch at 2:20 AM on September 18 [20 favorites]
it's certain that they would be closely safeguarded and not left unattended or in the possession of someone else.
I linked upthread to a video showing damage to a bedroom from an unattended pager. Please take the "it's certain that..." stuff down a notch. We cannot be "certain" at this point of any generalizations about how the pagers were being used months after being disbursed.
posted by mediareport at 2:35 AM on September 18 [23 favorites]
I linked upthread to a video showing damage to a bedroom from an unattended pager. Please take the "it's certain that..." stuff down a notch. We cannot be "certain" at this point of any generalizations about how the pagers were being used months after being disbursed.
posted by mediareport at 2:35 AM on September 18 [23 favorites]
Archive version of the Reuters story linked just above with a few more details about the operation.
posted by mediareport at 2:44 AM on September 18 [2 favorites]
posted by mediareport at 2:44 AM on September 18 [2 favorites]
Imagine if, let's say Russia, or North Korea, or whoever, got wind that U.S government and military officials were all about to start using pagers to communicate, so they created an operation to infiltrate the production process and plant explosives in all of the devices, which would then be later detonated en-masse resulting in indiscriminate casualties.
Does anyone think for a microsecond that most of the world wouldn't condemn it as a truly depraved act of terrorism?
posted by mrjohnmuller at 2:58 AM on September 18 [19 favorites]
Does anyone think for a microsecond that most of the world wouldn't condemn it as a truly depraved act of terrorism?
posted by mrjohnmuller at 2:58 AM on September 18 [19 favorites]
Even if so, it's a war crime to go after them when not in active combat.
Sure, you may call targeted killings a war crime. Hezbollah fired rockets indiscriminately into Israel on Oct 8th, and many thousands more in the months afterwards, and received zero repercussions from the international community.
Which is not the argument that you can do a war crime back if one is done to you, but rather that Israel (and many other people) feel confident that if there is absolutely zero international repercussion to 10,000 rockets / mortars / drones, what are the chances there will be any response to pager bombs? Call them both war-crimes or not and what does it matter?
As ocschwar mentioned, no one will ever intervene on your behalf. A cross border raid taking two IDF soldiers hostage precipitated hostilities in 2006, ending with UNSC Resolution 1701 (2006) directing Israel to withdraw its forces from Lebanon, Hezbollah to disarm, and Lebanese and UNIFIL forces to control the border. Guess which was the only thing that happened? Yes, Israel was an idiot and followed UNSC 1701 while Hezbollah and Lebanon failed to adhere to it. And what was the response to that? No reward for Israel, no repercussion to Hezbollah.
Under the common law justice system, judges and juries use the "reasonable person" test. Put in that same situation, what would a reasonable person choose to do? Given the facts, I've (obviously) come to my own conclusions, and it's fair that others come to their own conclusions too. Right now, it's 48-42 opinion against Israel's actions in Gaza in the latest Gallup Poll in the US. I don't think there's been a poll seeing how people feel about Netanyahu's culpability - the ICC may of course choose to run its determination through different criteria, but if they are not congruent with people's opinion, then it ultimately has no teeth, because enforcement is up to the politicians representing the people.
-- as for the pager on the table in the bedroom comment by mediareport - I think any reasonable human being would take off their mobile phone phone or pager from their pocket and put it on a bedside table before sleeping - and I would still consider that device to be in my close possession and not "unattended". It's not like I would ever give out my mobile phone to random people or leave it unlocked at my office desk where other people might snoop through it.
posted by xdvesper at 3:00 AM on September 18 [7 favorites]
Sure, you may call targeted killings a war crime. Hezbollah fired rockets indiscriminately into Israel on Oct 8th, and many thousands more in the months afterwards, and received zero repercussions from the international community.
Which is not the argument that you can do a war crime back if one is done to you, but rather that Israel (and many other people) feel confident that if there is absolutely zero international repercussion to 10,000 rockets / mortars / drones, what are the chances there will be any response to pager bombs? Call them both war-crimes or not and what does it matter?
As ocschwar mentioned, no one will ever intervene on your behalf. A cross border raid taking two IDF soldiers hostage precipitated hostilities in 2006, ending with UNSC Resolution 1701 (2006) directing Israel to withdraw its forces from Lebanon, Hezbollah to disarm, and Lebanese and UNIFIL forces to control the border. Guess which was the only thing that happened? Yes, Israel was an idiot and followed UNSC 1701 while Hezbollah and Lebanon failed to adhere to it. And what was the response to that? No reward for Israel, no repercussion to Hezbollah.
Under the common law justice system, judges and juries use the "reasonable person" test. Put in that same situation, what would a reasonable person choose to do? Given the facts, I've (obviously) come to my own conclusions, and it's fair that others come to their own conclusions too. Right now, it's 48-42 opinion against Israel's actions in Gaza in the latest Gallup Poll in the US. I don't think there's been a poll seeing how people feel about Netanyahu's culpability - the ICC may of course choose to run its determination through different criteria, but if they are not congruent with people's opinion, then it ultimately has no teeth, because enforcement is up to the politicians representing the people.
-- as for the pager on the table in the bedroom comment by mediareport - I think any reasonable human being would take off their mobile phone phone or pager from their pocket and put it on a bedside table before sleeping - and I would still consider that device to be in my close possession and not "unattended". It's not like I would ever give out my mobile phone to random people or leave it unlocked at my office desk where other people might snoop through it.
posted by xdvesper at 3:00 AM on September 18 [7 favorites]
Israeli intelligence somehow noticed the shipment and intercepted it.
Do people really think Hezbollah is emailing pager suppliers in Taiwan like: "I'm a procurement officer for Hezbollah and we'd like to purchase 500 of your pagers
its products are ordered by "intelligence, emergency-response, and defense [organizations] in Europe and America"
so what were the chances of their intelligence being wrong and the pagers instead being delivered to a bunch of fire stations or ambulance workers?
posted by Lanark at 3:05 AM on September 18 [1 favorite]
Do people really think Hezbollah is emailing pager suppliers in Taiwan like: "I'm a procurement officer for Hezbollah and we'd like to purchase 500 of your pagers
its products are ordered by "intelligence, emergency-response, and defense [organizations] in Europe and America"
so what were the chances of their intelligence being wrong and the pagers instead being delivered to a bunch of fire stations or ambulance workers?
posted by Lanark at 3:05 AM on September 18 [1 favorite]
Why now?
Either it's targeted, anticipating a specific event, say, Hezbollah has planned. Or it's arbitrary - the pagers having been deployed, now to blow people up.
Neither seems better than the other. All of it is sad as shit.
posted by From Bklyn at 3:16 AM on September 18 [3 favorites]
Either it's targeted, anticipating a specific event, say, Hezbollah has planned. Or it's arbitrary - the pagers having been deployed, now to blow people up.
Neither seems better than the other. All of it is sad as shit.
posted by From Bklyn at 3:16 AM on September 18 [3 favorites]
'I, a self-declared reasonable person would do this, thus this is what all of them must have done, it is the only reasonable thing to expect.'
The actual evidence, consequences if what happened show that this is clearly wrong, was clearly wrong, and is unreasonable to continue to insist that it is anything other than misguided.
posted by Dysk at 3:19 AM on September 18 [12 favorites]
The actual evidence, consequences if what happened show that this is clearly wrong, was clearly wrong, and is unreasonable to continue to insist that it is anything other than misguided.
posted by Dysk at 3:19 AM on September 18 [12 favorites]
Times of Israel: ‘Use it or lose it’: Israel reportedly set off pagers amid fears plot was exposed
Israeli intelligence services originally wanted to detonate the pagers as an opening blow in an all-out war against Hezbollah, Axios reported, citing American and Israeli officials. They chose to act early, however, when a Hezbollah member became suspicious of the devices and planned to alert his superiors, Al-Monitor reported.
Just days earlier, a different Hezbollah member had come to suspect the devices had been tampered with, and then he was killed, Al-Monitor said.
Upon learning of the suspicions, Israeli leaders reportedly considered launching an immediate full-scale war in order to retain the pager attack as an opening blow. They also considered leaving things as they were, even at the risk of the operation being compromised...Another security source told Reuters that up to three grams of explosives were hidden in the new pagers and had gone “undetected” by Hezbollah for months.
The article also notes the Taiwan company whose name is on the pagers plans to sue the Budapest-based licensee which allowed Israel to plant explosives in them.
posted by mediareport at 3:48 AM on September 18 [13 favorites]
Israeli intelligence services originally wanted to detonate the pagers as an opening blow in an all-out war against Hezbollah, Axios reported, citing American and Israeli officials. They chose to act early, however, when a Hezbollah member became suspicious of the devices and planned to alert his superiors, Al-Monitor reported.
Just days earlier, a different Hezbollah member had come to suspect the devices had been tampered with, and then he was killed, Al-Monitor said.
Upon learning of the suspicions, Israeli leaders reportedly considered launching an immediate full-scale war in order to retain the pager attack as an opening blow. They also considered leaving things as they were, even at the risk of the operation being compromised...Another security source told Reuters that up to three grams of explosives were hidden in the new pagers and had gone “undetected” by Hezbollah for months.
The article also notes the Taiwan company whose name is on the pagers plans to sue the Budapest-based licensee which allowed Israel to plant explosives in them.
posted by mediareport at 3:48 AM on September 18 [13 favorites]
Had Hezbollah got their suppliers to complete a supplier assurance questionnaire and read their SOC2 report, this could have been avoided.
posted by DreamerFi at 3:51 AM on September 18 [10 favorites]
posted by DreamerFi at 3:51 AM on September 18 [10 favorites]
I'll be curious to see whether Biden, whose clear disdain of Netanyahu has always been balanced out by his own more pusillanimous political instincts, will be emboldened to make some kind of statement at a moment when he literally has nothing to lose. I don't have much hope that he will actually condemn this act of terrorism, because Biden, but it would be nice.
posted by kittens for breakfast at 3:59 AM on September 18 [11 favorites]
posted by kittens for breakfast at 3:59 AM on September 18 [11 favorites]
As always, in these times of trouble--
Times of Israel: ‘Use it or lose it’: Israel reportedly set off pagers amid fears plot was exposed
We can always expect (eta: mainstream) Israeli journalism, even the right-wing ones, do the job the western ones won't, because if they did, the hasbara collapses.
posted by cendawanita at 4:06 AM on September 18 [7 favorites]
Times of Israel: ‘Use it or lose it’: Israel reportedly set off pagers amid fears plot was exposed
We can always expect (eta: mainstream) Israeli journalism, even the right-wing ones, do the job the western ones won't, because if they did, the hasbara collapses.
posted by cendawanita at 4:06 AM on September 18 [7 favorites]
Actually now it's just even more stupid -- let the plot be uncovered, and let all strawmanning begin over how antisemitic it is to discuss the plot. More legs.
Like, right now people are dead and injured, and we still managed.
posted by cendawanita at 4:14 AM on September 18 [6 favorites]
Like, right now people are dead and injured, and we still managed.
posted by cendawanita at 4:14 AM on September 18 [6 favorites]
Precious pagers with top SEKRIT info that would never be shared willy nilly: In a televised speech on February 13, the terror group’s leader General Hassan Nasrallah sternly warned supporters that their phones were more dangerous than Israeli spies, saying they should break, bury or lock them in an iron box.
Instead, Hezbollah opted to distribute pagers to members across the group’s various branches – from fighters to medics working in its relief services.
posted by cendawanita at 4:21 AM on September 18 [12 favorites]
Instead, Hezbollah opted to distribute pagers to members across the group’s various branches – from fighters to medics working in its relief services.
posted by cendawanita at 4:21 AM on September 18 [12 favorites]
But a reasonable man said only valid targets would have them?!
posted by Dysk at 4:32 AM on September 18 [20 favorites]
posted by Dysk at 4:32 AM on September 18 [20 favorites]
Israelis are protected by realpolitik. Not by international law.
I read this and found myself in the position of quoting Dr. Phil: "How's that working out for you?"
Oct. 7 was a pretty profound demonstration of the failure of Israel's current incarnation of realpolitik to defend Israelis. In fact it appears it was a pretty deliberate and continuing sacrifice of many Israelis to achieve Netanyahu's coalition's goals which will only further endanger Israelis for years to come.
posted by srboisvert at 4:49 AM on September 18 [19 favorites]
I read this and found myself in the position of quoting Dr. Phil: "How's that working out for you?"
Oct. 7 was a pretty profound demonstration of the failure of Israel's current incarnation of realpolitik to defend Israelis. In fact it appears it was a pretty deliberate and continuing sacrifice of many Israelis to achieve Netanyahu's coalition's goals which will only further endanger Israelis for years to come.
posted by srboisvert at 4:49 AM on September 18 [19 favorites]
I'd be interested in knowing if these pagers were addressible? I.e.do they have an "individual " vs "everyone" call? Because if so, choosing one of these rather than the other was also 'calculated'
posted by lalochezia at 5:20 AM on September 18
posted by lalochezia at 5:20 AM on September 18
Might be time for some good background reading on the NSA's TAO (Tailored Access Operations) that have been intercepting shipments and modifying electronic equipment for a very long time.
posted by JoeZydeco at 5:30 AM on September 18 [14 favorites]
posted by JoeZydeco at 5:30 AM on September 18 [14 favorites]
Mod note: Couple of comments removed, responses left up.
Please avoid making general accusations about other members. This is a heated topic, emotions are high, so bring your best self to these threads, thanks.
posted by Brandon Blatcher (staff) at 5:39 AM on September 18 [5 favorites]
Please avoid making general accusations about other members. This is a heated topic, emotions are high, so bring your best self to these threads, thanks.
posted by Brandon Blatcher (staff) at 5:39 AM on September 18 [5 favorites]
The international community could instead deal with it like they do Israel: refusing to criticise anything, and supplying arms to their genocide.
If Israel is getting special treatment, it's not to its detriment.
posted by Dysk at 6:29 AM on September 18 [5 favorites]
If Israel is getting special treatment, it's not to its detriment.
posted by Dysk at 6:29 AM on September 18 [5 favorites]
The notion that Israel isn't being supported and that Hezbollah isn't facing consequences is ... The craziest thing I've ever heard. Disturbing.
Israel exists exclusively due to the weapons the United States is giving them which have been used to mop the floor with Hezbollah. There's an extreme disparity both in terms of firepower and casualties, in Israel's favor.
If you keep leaning on the Holocaust to justify modern war crimes you realize people are going to stop taking the lessons of the Holocaust seriously and that is not good?
posted by constraint at 6:30 AM on September 18 [21 favorites]
Israel exists exclusively due to the weapons the United States is giving them which have been used to mop the floor with Hezbollah. There's an extreme disparity both in terms of firepower and casualties, in Israel's favor.
If you keep leaning on the Holocaust to justify modern war crimes you realize people are going to stop taking the lessons of the Holocaust seriously and that is not good?
posted by constraint at 6:30 AM on September 18 [21 favorites]
Given the pagers contained such secret information that Hezbollah had to switch away from using cellphones,
I don't think this is right; I doubt the pagers had much information on them other than a list of incoming telephone numbers and maybe snippets of text. Pagers are general receive-only and don't broadcast their location. They went away from cellphones probably because those actually do broadcast individually-identifiable and location information constantly. (my conjecture, no supporting links)
posted by achrise at 6:32 AM on September 18 [12 favorites]
I don't think this is right; I doubt the pagers had much information on them other than a list of incoming telephone numbers and maybe snippets of text. Pagers are general receive-only and don't broadcast their location. They went away from cellphones probably because those actually do broadcast individually-identifiable and location information constantly. (my conjecture, no supporting links)
posted by achrise at 6:32 AM on September 18 [12 favorites]
> Unless the protection of Jewish peoples around the world is not in fact a founding mission of Israel?
I've noticed a strand in the discourse here: it seems that a single Jewish life is sufficient to excuse any action.
This comes into focus with the October 7th massacre + hostage taking committed by Hamas, and the subsequent coordinated campaign of ethnic cleansing committed by the IDF and Netanyahu.
How many Palestinian civilian lives are acceptable recompense for one Israeli civilians? I don't think the answer is 100.
Israel had a moment of unambiguous moral authority and they squandered it with a baccanal of murder that largely did not serve the purpose of freeing hostages or ending the threat of Hamas.
But the rhetoric I'm seeing basically seems to view any and all action by Israel as justified without reference to proportionality, duty of care in a just war, or the right of Palestinians to self defense in the face of a coordinated campaign of ethnic cleansing.
posted by constraint at 7:05 AM on September 18 [27 favorites]
I've noticed a strand in the discourse here: it seems that a single Jewish life is sufficient to excuse any action.
This comes into focus with the October 7th massacre + hostage taking committed by Hamas, and the subsequent coordinated campaign of ethnic cleansing committed by the IDF and Netanyahu.
How many Palestinian civilian lives are acceptable recompense for one Israeli civilians? I don't think the answer is 100.
Israel had a moment of unambiguous moral authority and they squandered it with a baccanal of murder that largely did not serve the purpose of freeing hostages or ending the threat of Hamas.
But the rhetoric I'm seeing basically seems to view any and all action by Israel as justified without reference to proportionality, duty of care in a just war, or the right of Palestinians to self defense in the face of a coordinated campaign of ethnic cleansing.
posted by constraint at 7:05 AM on September 18 [27 favorites]
Per BBC today, the Taiwanese company initially linked to the pagers is saying that the devices were produced in Europe under a brand name licence by BAC, a firm based in Hungary, with which Gold Apollo signed a deal three years ago. It would not be terribly surprising if BAC turns out to have been set up by Israeli intelligence explicitly for this purpose.
posted by senor biggles at 7:06 AM on September 18 [14 favorites]
posted by senor biggles at 7:06 AM on September 18 [14 favorites]
Mod note: Hi, mod note again. A few more comments have been removed.
The current line of discussion is turning into a back and forth that is going nowhere in a take on all comers sort of situation. Everyone, please stop and move on from this derail.
posted by Brandon Blatcher (staff) at 7:15 AM on September 18 [1 favorite]
The current line of discussion is turning into a back and forth that is going nowhere in a take on all comers sort of situation. Everyone, please stop and move on from this derail.
posted by Brandon Blatcher (staff) at 7:15 AM on September 18 [1 favorite]
a few comments have, in my view, hit the target
when a group of terrorists flew commercial airplanes into the Twin Towers, the world changed abruptly
this exploding beeper thing, this is another lurch into new territory. I don't doubt some of you want to litigate and rationalize the hell out of this, but from where I'm standing the 21st century looks to be the Great Undoing.
it's not fucking working, Israel. None of this shit is working. I'm noting the voices here going full whatabout, full rationalization, and sure: this action makes sense, if you are a terrorist organization. I will leave it to someone with more patience to wade into that unbearably stupid 'international law' derail. for shame
posted by ginger.beef at 7:28 AM on September 18 [30 favorites]
when a group of terrorists flew commercial airplanes into the Twin Towers, the world changed abruptly
this exploding beeper thing, this is another lurch into new territory. I don't doubt some of you want to litigate and rationalize the hell out of this, but from where I'm standing the 21st century looks to be the Great Undoing.
it's not fucking working, Israel. None of this shit is working. I'm noting the voices here going full whatabout, full rationalization, and sure: this action makes sense, if you are a terrorist organization. I will leave it to someone with more patience to wade into that unbearably stupid 'international law' derail. for shame
posted by ginger.beef at 7:28 AM on September 18 [30 favorites]
Early reports of a second round of explosions today, possibly from hand held radios this time.
Reuters
Jerusalem Post
NYT
posted by gwint at 7:36 AM on September 18 [7 favorites]
Reuters
Jerusalem Post
NYT
posted by gwint at 7:36 AM on September 18 [7 favorites]
It would not be terribly surprising if BAC turns out to have been set up by Israeli intelligence explicitly for this purpose.
A shell company?
A shell company?
DW visited BAC's official address in Budapest, but didn't meet or see any employee from the firm. Nobody responded to the doorbell. An A4 sheet of paper with BAC's name printed on it is the only proof of the company's existence.posted by flabdablet at 7:37 AM on September 18 [14 favorites]
Residents of the house told DW that they don't know this company, and that they rarely see any correspondence sent to the address.
Could someone explain to me what Netanyahu's endgame is here?
I assume he has one and is not just doing Joker style fuck up everything he can type things.
But so far he's:
1) Started a genocide via ethnic cleansing in Gaza that is straining the IDF and his budget
2) Expanded the invasion of the West Bank by "settlers" and is spending more scarce IDF resources there to protect the "settlers".
3) Antagonized Iran, which isn't exactly diffcult but he seems to have gone out of his way to do it.
4) And now provoking war with Lebanon via terrorist IED attacks.
I'm struggling to see how this matches up with his stated or a subtextual goals.
I can definitely see how invading Gaza and committing genocide matches up with both Netanyahu's stated goal ("eradicating Hamas") and his presumptive unstated goal (claiming 100% of all land he believes Israel should have). I don't like it, I don't agree with it, but it's at least a semi-rational action given his starting axioms.
The second, increasing attacks in the West Bank, is also one that flows reasonably from his starting axioms. I think you can argue that he's seriously overreaching and putting strain on his economy and military he shouldn't be, but while I consider it immoral and wrong it's consistent with his positions.
But 3 and 4 are just baffling.
Netanyahu is ALREADY engaged in a two front war that's hurting his economy and putting stress on his military. Opening up two additional fronts, against two separate nations, one of which isn't a pushover and has a military worthy of the name is baffling even when I try to look at it from Netanyahu's POV.
Even if he assumes he can keep attacking other nations and then hiding behind America to thumb is nose at his victims it's still wasting limited resources.
And maybe he has reason to think that regardless of how blatant his provocation is if Iran does mount a serious attack on Israel then the US is going to send it's miliary in to defend Israel, but despite America's horrifying submission to Israeli whim I'm not all that sure America would go to war against Iran if Israel started it.
On the pagers... I said it in the other thread and I think it's still worth saying: this is going to result in a huge surge of paranoia, massive costs for dismantling all extant equipment for inspection, and a new regime of third party (or more likely, every antion that can bully their way into the deal) inspections at every step of every single manufacturing process for international goods.
Every laptop computer on the planet has places you could hide dozens of times the plastic explosive that seems to have been used in the pager attack.
Every car on the market is assembled out of black box componenents manufactured at facilities located all over the planet. It wouldn't be trivial, but it would definitely be possible to conceal significant explosive material in any number of automobile components. It's not like you need to sneek into a car factory all Mission Impossible style and plant big obvious blocks of C4 with blinking detonators. All it takes is compromising a single subcontractor for a single component.
This makes the PLC compromise the US used in it's Stuxnet attack on Iran look harmless by comparison.
I have a Logitec mouse right beside me, with Bluetooth. I've never opened more than the battery compartment. I know that it's assembled in China by workers slapping togetehr black box components sent to their factory from dozens of subsubsub contractors.
there's no reason it couldn't contain anything from a keylogger to a bomb.
We are all surrounded by dozens, if not hundreds, of potential bombs. I work at a nonprofit that's of no particular interest to any international group. I don't think I'm at any risk of anything. But if I was the FBI? CIA? Any branch of the US military. Any aerospace corporation? Any satellite contractor?
How many parts of every Starlink satellite Musk has orbited were from third party subcontractors? I'm betting quite a few. They could all be set to blow up, or record and retransmit information, or anything in between.
There's going to be a huge monitary cost associated with efforts to secure supply chains and review every single device currently in use.
posted by sotonohito at 7:44 AM on September 18 [37 favorites]
I assume he has one and is not just doing Joker style fuck up everything he can type things.
But so far he's:
1) Started a genocide via ethnic cleansing in Gaza that is straining the IDF and his budget
2) Expanded the invasion of the West Bank by "settlers" and is spending more scarce IDF resources there to protect the "settlers".
3) Antagonized Iran, which isn't exactly diffcult but he seems to have gone out of his way to do it.
4) And now provoking war with Lebanon via terrorist IED attacks.
I'm struggling to see how this matches up with his stated or a subtextual goals.
I can definitely see how invading Gaza and committing genocide matches up with both Netanyahu's stated goal ("eradicating Hamas") and his presumptive unstated goal (claiming 100% of all land he believes Israel should have). I don't like it, I don't agree with it, but it's at least a semi-rational action given his starting axioms.
The second, increasing attacks in the West Bank, is also one that flows reasonably from his starting axioms. I think you can argue that he's seriously overreaching and putting strain on his economy and military he shouldn't be, but while I consider it immoral and wrong it's consistent with his positions.
But 3 and 4 are just baffling.
Netanyahu is ALREADY engaged in a two front war that's hurting his economy and putting stress on his military. Opening up two additional fronts, against two separate nations, one of which isn't a pushover and has a military worthy of the name is baffling even when I try to look at it from Netanyahu's POV.
Even if he assumes he can keep attacking other nations and then hiding behind America to thumb is nose at his victims it's still wasting limited resources.
And maybe he has reason to think that regardless of how blatant his provocation is if Iran does mount a serious attack on Israel then the US is going to send it's miliary in to defend Israel, but despite America's horrifying submission to Israeli whim I'm not all that sure America would go to war against Iran if Israel started it.
On the pagers... I said it in the other thread and I think it's still worth saying: this is going to result in a huge surge of paranoia, massive costs for dismantling all extant equipment for inspection, and a new regime of third party (or more likely, every antion that can bully their way into the deal) inspections at every step of every single manufacturing process for international goods.
Every laptop computer on the planet has places you could hide dozens of times the plastic explosive that seems to have been used in the pager attack.
Every car on the market is assembled out of black box componenents manufactured at facilities located all over the planet. It wouldn't be trivial, but it would definitely be possible to conceal significant explosive material in any number of automobile components. It's not like you need to sneek into a car factory all Mission Impossible style and plant big obvious blocks of C4 with blinking detonators. All it takes is compromising a single subcontractor for a single component.
This makes the PLC compromise the US used in it's Stuxnet attack on Iran look harmless by comparison.
I have a Logitec mouse right beside me, with Bluetooth. I've never opened more than the battery compartment. I know that it's assembled in China by workers slapping togetehr black box components sent to their factory from dozens of subsubsub contractors.
there's no reason it couldn't contain anything from a keylogger to a bomb.
We are all surrounded by dozens, if not hundreds, of potential bombs. I work at a nonprofit that's of no particular interest to any international group. I don't think I'm at any risk of anything. But if I was the FBI? CIA? Any branch of the US military. Any aerospace corporation? Any satellite contractor?
How many parts of every Starlink satellite Musk has orbited were from third party subcontractors? I'm betting quite a few. They could all be set to blow up, or record and retransmit information, or anything in between.
There's going to be a huge monitary cost associated with efforts to secure supply chains and review every single device currently in use.
posted by sotonohito at 7:44 AM on September 18 [37 favorites]
Could someone explain to me what Netanyahu's endgame is here?
Extending a state of emergency that lets him stay in power as long as possible, because once the war ends, so does his career, probably? Should be pretty clear at this point that Netanyahu prioritises his political survival over all else, even his commitment to the idea of "greater Israel" (although that's also part of it).
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 7:52 AM on September 18 [26 favorites]
Extending a state of emergency that lets him stay in power as long as possible, because once the war ends, so does his career, probably? Should be pretty clear at this point that Netanyahu prioritises his political survival over all else, even his commitment to the idea of "greater Israel" (although that's also part of it).
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 7:52 AM on September 18 [26 favorites]
There's also his desire to see fascism spread across the world by interfering in multiple countries' elections.
posted by Glegrinof the Pig-Man at 7:55 AM on September 18 [5 favorites]
posted by Glegrinof the Pig-Man at 7:55 AM on September 18 [5 favorites]
I believe Netanyahu is maintaining and expanding wars because if the Israeli public could catch its breath, he'd at least be out of office, and I think in jail for corruption. (I don't have details on the corruption, I'm just trusting what I read.)
As for the pager attack, I think it was remarkably well focused as such things go. Arguably not focused enough. The BBC has been reporting on increased fear in Lebanon and an overwhelmed medical system.
I don't know whether theorizing about the timing of the attack makes sense. Considering that Hezbollah have been doing rocket attacks on Israel, why not weaken Hezbollah as soon as the pagers were in place?
posted by Nancy Lebovitz at 7:56 AM on September 18 [3 favorites]
As for the pager attack, I think it was remarkably well focused as such things go. Arguably not focused enough. The BBC has been reporting on increased fear in Lebanon and an overwhelmed medical system.
I don't know whether theorizing about the timing of the attack makes sense. Considering that Hezbollah have been doing rocket attacks on Israel, why not weaken Hezbollah as soon as the pagers were in place?
posted by Nancy Lebovitz at 7:56 AM on September 18 [3 favorites]
For Ur-Fascism there is no struggle for life but, rather, life is lived for struggle. Thus pacifism is trafficking with the enemy. It is bad because life is permanent warfare. This, however, brings about an Armageddon complex. Since enemies have to be defeated, there must be a final battle, after which the movement will have control of the world. But such a “final solution” implies a further era of peace, a Golden Age, which contradicts the principle of permanent war. No fascist leader has ever succeeded in solving this predicament.
- Umberto Eco, "Ur-Fascism"
posted by mrjohnmuller at 7:57 AM on September 18 [22 favorites]
- Umberto Eco, "Ur-Fascism"
posted by mrjohnmuller at 7:57 AM on September 18 [22 favorites]
I don't think Netanyahu has an endgame-- just staying in office and out of jail as long as possible.
posted by Nancy Lebovitz at 7:57 AM on September 18 [6 favorites]
posted by Nancy Lebovitz at 7:57 AM on September 18 [6 favorites]
On the pagers... I said it in the other thread and I think it's still worth saying: this is going to result in a huge surge of paranoia, massive costs for dismantling all extant equipment for inspection, and a new regime of third party (or more likely, every antion that can bully their way into the deal) inspections at every step of every single manufacturing process for international goods.
It's like how we just accept Security Theater every time we fly since 9/11. Shoes off! All your shit in a plastic tray! Step in this tube to scan your body!
Now there's possibility of adding inspecting and taking apart anything at all that could be seen as a avenue for an explosive. And of course, we will grimace and take it because what choice do we have?
posted by Kitteh at 8:02 AM on September 18 [10 favorites]
It's like how we just accept Security Theater every time we fly since 9/11. Shoes off! All your shit in a plastic tray! Step in this tube to scan your body!
Now there's possibility of adding inspecting and taking apart anything at all that could be seen as a avenue for an explosive. And of course, we will grimace and take it because what choice do we have?
posted by Kitteh at 8:02 AM on September 18 [10 favorites]
Considering that Hezbollah have been doing rocket attacks on Israel, why not weaken Hezbollah as soon as the pagers were in place?
Four months ago? Also, are we also now saying Israelis are liars? Because their own reporting shows that it's a matter of beating the housecleaning as the plot was uncovered.
posted by cendawanita at 8:04 AM on September 18 [5 favorites]
Four months ago? Also, are we also now saying Israelis are liars? Because their own reporting shows that it's a matter of beating the housecleaning as the plot was uncovered.
posted by cendawanita at 8:04 AM on September 18 [5 favorites]
I don't think Netanyahu has an endgame-- just staying in office and out of jail as long as possible.
Well, that and the complete annihilation of the Palestinians at home and abroad along with any resistance among the Jewish diaspora.
posted by Glegrinof the Pig-Man at 8:04 AM on September 18 [5 favorites]
Well, that and the complete annihilation of the Palestinians at home and abroad along with any resistance among the Jewish diaspora.
posted by Glegrinof the Pig-Man at 8:04 AM on September 18 [5 favorites]
Considering that Hezbollah have been doing rocket attacks on Israel, why not weaken Hezbollah as soon as the pagers were in place?
because you're thinking you might be invading soon and that's the most useful time to blow up their communications equipment and personnel; in the medium term they can replace everything, so you'd wait for maximum effect. This attack isn't going to meaningfully slow the rocket attacks even a little, but it would interfere with their response to an invasion
posted by BungaDunga at 8:08 AM on September 18 [3 favorites]
because you're thinking you might be invading soon and that's the most useful time to blow up their communications equipment and personnel; in the medium term they can replace everything, so you'd wait for maximum effect. This attack isn't going to meaningfully slow the rocket attacks even a little, but it would interfere with their response to an invasion
posted by BungaDunga at 8:08 AM on September 18 [3 favorites]
We'll have the smartphone flavor from China, GRU, and the NSA in the future, especially since iPhone/Android biometric login makes this attack soo much more deadly.
Also, your smartphone is alraedy full of spyware, and software designed to manipulate you, which serves primarily google/apple, your carrier, the NSA, China, and whoever else weasels their way into the device. This attack is blatant & flashy, but arguably just more new feature progress from some stakeholders positions.
It'll be nice if this pushes us back to removably batteries in phones.
I highly recommend Open Source is Insufficient to Solve Trust Problems in Hardware by Bunnie Hung, where he introduces betrusted, a personal device designed for inspection.
5000 pagers were modified "at the production level" with “a board inside that has explosive material & receives a code” (MG thread)
'Pagers used in Tuesday's attack were manufactured by [a shell company] in the Hungarian capital of Budapest, according to a statement released by Gold Apollo, a Taiwanese firm that authorized the use of its brand on the pagers'
I especially liked this one..
The U.S. State Dept says the U.S. was not involved in the pager explosions in Lebanon and was not aware of the incident beforehand.
In unrelated news, the American University of Beirut Medical Center replaced the pagers of their doctors and staff 2 weeks ago.
posted by jeffburdges at 8:10 AM on September 18 [22 favorites]
Also, your smartphone is alraedy full of spyware, and software designed to manipulate you, which serves primarily google/apple, your carrier, the NSA, China, and whoever else weasels their way into the device. This attack is blatant & flashy, but arguably just more new feature progress from some stakeholders positions.
It'll be nice if this pushes us back to removably batteries in phones.
I highly recommend Open Source is Insufficient to Solve Trust Problems in Hardware by Bunnie Hung, where he introduces betrusted, a personal device designed for inspection.
5000 pagers were modified "at the production level" with “a board inside that has explosive material & receives a code” (MG thread)
'Pagers used in Tuesday's attack were manufactured by [a shell company] in the Hungarian capital of Budapest, according to a statement released by Gold Apollo, a Taiwanese firm that authorized the use of its brand on the pagers'
I especially liked this one..
The U.S. State Dept says the U.S. was not involved in the pager explosions in Lebanon and was not aware of the incident beforehand.
In unrelated news, the American University of Beirut Medical Center replaced the pagers of their doctors and staff 2 weeks ago.
posted by jeffburdges at 8:10 AM on September 18 [22 favorites]
are we also now saying Israelis are liars? Because their own reporting shows that it's a matter of beating the housecleaning as the plot was uncovered.
security services lying to reporters is not exactly an innovation
(but this explanation for the timing makes sense to me; otherwise it seems like the exact sort of capability you'd sit on in case of an invasion where it would be much more useful)
posted by BungaDunga at 8:14 AM on September 18 [2 favorites]
security services lying to reporters is not exactly an innovation
(but this explanation for the timing makes sense to me; otherwise it seems like the exact sort of capability you'd sit on in case of an invasion where it would be much more useful)
posted by BungaDunga at 8:14 AM on September 18 [2 favorites]
Yeah, Shin Bet was apparently saving the explosions for the moment just before a ground invasion, which is apparently likely to be coming soon. We have only a few brief reports but apparently a couple of folks in Lebanon had suspicions about the devices. One person with suspicions was apparently killed, but Israel apparently decided that it had better use the embedded explosive devices now at a less effective time since they were apparently about to become useless.
Apparently.
posted by mediareport at 8:14 AM on September 18 [3 favorites]
Apparently.
posted by mediareport at 8:14 AM on September 18 [3 favorites]
This attack isn't going to meaningfully slow the rocket attacks even a little, but it would interfere with their response to an invasion
Ah, since we all appreciate history, 16 September this year would mark the 42nd anniversary of the Sabra and Shatila massacre in Lebanon by the IDF... An invasion which birthed Hezbollah.
posted by cendawanita at 8:15 AM on September 18 [16 favorites]
Ah, since we all appreciate history, 16 September this year would mark the 42nd anniversary of the Sabra and Shatila massacre in Lebanon by the IDF... An invasion which birthed Hezbollah.
posted by cendawanita at 8:15 AM on September 18 [16 favorites]
security services lying to reporters is not exactly an innovation
Very true. Though I will say, the ToI report built on journalism not just by its own Jacob Magid (hence the shared byline), but also Al-Monitor (which is too paywalled for me to build a good sense of how they are) and Axios, which means Barak Ravid - and he's basically outscooping joints thanks to his IDF relationships (you can gauge temperature on how mad they are at Bibi by his reporting).
posted by cendawanita at 8:18 AM on September 18 [2 favorites]
Very true. Though I will say, the ToI report built on journalism not just by its own Jacob Magid (hence the shared byline), but also Al-Monitor (which is too paywalled for me to build a good sense of how they are) and Axios, which means Barak Ravid - and he's basically outscooping joints thanks to his IDF relationships (you can gauge temperature on how mad they are at Bibi by his reporting).
posted by cendawanita at 8:18 AM on September 18 [2 favorites]
Fresh round of explosions. Apparently, yes, they did also do walkie talkies.
I shudder at how many kids toys have electronics and some sort of communications channel in them - radio controlled cars, superhero toy walkie talkies, let alone baby monitors etc. Now the supply chains are compromised - what are the chances some modified components meant for one product got used in another? That happens all the time.
posted by inflatablekiwi at 8:19 AM on September 18 [9 favorites]
I shudder at how many kids toys have electronics and some sort of communications channel in them - radio controlled cars, superhero toy walkie talkies, let alone baby monitors etc. Now the supply chains are compromised - what are the chances some modified components meant for one product got used in another? That happens all the time.
posted by inflatablekiwi at 8:19 AM on September 18 [9 favorites]
Exploding walkie-talkies injure more than 100 in new attacks across Lebanon
posted by BungaDunga at 8:19 AM on September 18 [7 favorites]
posted by BungaDunga at 8:19 AM on September 18 [7 favorites]
I was thinking last night that Israel probably fucked with more than one kind of device. Smart. Diabolically smart.
posted by mediareport at 8:21 AM on September 18
posted by mediareport at 8:21 AM on September 18
Now the supply chains are compromised - what are the chances some modified components meant for one product got used in another....that happens all the time.
You forget the bit about how reasonable people would never do that. It's a given.
posted by cendawanita at 8:21 AM on September 18 [3 favorites]
You forget the bit about how reasonable people would never do that. It's a given.
posted by cendawanita at 8:21 AM on September 18 [3 favorites]
Second round? Has Biden said anything?
There's a second round of attacks and your first thought is "I wonder what Biden said" as opposed to how horrible the situation is?
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 8:21 AM on September 18 [5 favorites]
There's a second round of attacks and your first thought is "I wonder what Biden said" as opposed to how horrible the situation is?
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 8:21 AM on September 18 [5 favorites]
I wonder who manufactured/sold the walkie-talkies? Same Hungarian company?
posted by Windopaene at 8:23 AM on September 18 [1 favorite]
posted by Windopaene at 8:23 AM on September 18 [1 favorite]
This is not a vibes thread.
posted by Glegrinof the Pig-Man at 8:23 AM on September 18 [15 favorites]
posted by Glegrinof the Pig-Man at 8:23 AM on September 18 [15 favorites]
The second round including a large crowd at a funeral reminds me so much of Al Qaeda - "Let's do one explosion to start and a second one later to get the crowds and first responders!"
posted by mediareport at 8:25 AM on September 18 [13 favorites]
posted by mediareport at 8:25 AM on September 18 [13 favorites]
your first thought is "I wonder what Biden said" as opposed to how horrible the situation is?
Mostly because this week my mind is on the Sabra and Shatila massacre, and to quote from the link I shared:
Meeting little resistance, the IDF under Defense Minister Ariel Sharon sped up the coast all the way to the outskirts of Beirut, which they hammered with artillery and airstrikes until an appalled (and no doubt deeply frustrated) President Reagan intervened directly with Prime Minister Menachem Begin. More than 5,000 people were reportedly killed during the siege, most of them civilians.
(...) The Reagan administration reacted with anger. In a meeting with the Israeli ambassador in Washington, Deputy Secretary of State Lawrence Eagleburger demanded an immediate withdrawal by the IDF. “We appear to some to be the victim of deliberate deception by Israel,” he charged, according to memos declassified by the Israeli State Archives.
Interesting you think this horrible situation is somehow independent. It's been 24 hours. Has your president slowed down that much?
posted by cendawanita at 8:26 AM on September 18 [13 favorites]
Mostly because this week my mind is on the Sabra and Shatila massacre, and to quote from the link I shared:
Meeting little resistance, the IDF under Defense Minister Ariel Sharon sped up the coast all the way to the outskirts of Beirut, which they hammered with artillery and airstrikes until an appalled (and no doubt deeply frustrated) President Reagan intervened directly with Prime Minister Menachem Begin. More than 5,000 people were reportedly killed during the siege, most of them civilians.
(...) The Reagan administration reacted with anger. In a meeting with the Israeli ambassador in Washington, Deputy Secretary of State Lawrence Eagleburger demanded an immediate withdrawal by the IDF. “We appear to some to be the victim of deliberate deception by Israel,” he charged, according to memos declassified by the Israeli State Archives.
Interesting you think this horrible situation is somehow independent. It's been 24 hours. Has your president slowed down that much?
posted by cendawanita at 8:26 AM on September 18 [13 favorites]
Anyway, the extra-monstrous behavior with the second attacks is that Lebanese officials have told citizens not to use their cell phones, so this was not just an attack deliberately targeting civilians, but one meant to take advantage of the fact that the entire country's emergency communications apparatus has been effectively disabled.
posted by Glegrinof the Pig-Man at 8:27 AM on September 18 [15 favorites]
posted by Glegrinof the Pig-Man at 8:27 AM on September 18 [15 favorites]
And yes, Biden should call that out in the harshest terms possible, as soon as possible.
posted by Glegrinof the Pig-Man at 8:29 AM on September 18 [2 favorites]
posted by Glegrinof the Pig-Man at 8:29 AM on September 18 [2 favorites]
Yeah, been seeing testimonies that like the Palestinians in Gaza in the earlier months of the siege this year, the Lebanese have been very scared and reluctant to use their phones today. Terrified you could say.
Feels like a terror op.
posted by cendawanita at 8:30 AM on September 18 [6 favorites]
Feels like a terror op.
posted by cendawanita at 8:30 AM on September 18 [6 favorites]
Ambulances are now arriving in Dahieh, a southern suburb in Beirut - a Hezbollah stronghold.
A large crowd had gathered here for the funerals of four victims of those explosions yesterday, including a young boy and the son of a Hezbollah MP.
At about 17:00 local time (15:00 BST), we heard a large blast here. Details are unclear at the moment, and obviously there is the concern that more attacks could be happening.
Bombing funerals.
posted by BungaDunga at 8:31 AM on September 18 [12 favorites]
A large crowd had gathered here for the funerals of four victims of those explosions yesterday, including a young boy and the son of a Hezbollah MP.
At about 17:00 local time (15:00 BST), we heard a large blast here. Details are unclear at the moment, and obviously there is the concern that more attacks could be happening.
Bombing funerals.
posted by BungaDunga at 8:31 AM on September 18 [12 favorites]
This is tactically impressive but to what end? If the goal was use within a larger context, this 'use it or lose it' / Plan B scenario seems to be needlessly and recklessly escalatory. It's not defensive or offensive; it merely ups conflict and forces further violence. It all seems too clever by half.
posted by mazola at 8:32 AM on September 18 [5 favorites]
posted by mazola at 8:32 AM on September 18 [5 favorites]
The second round including a large crowd at a funeral reminds me so much of Al QaedaHeh, only Al Qaeda?
While the practice is not new,[citation needed] the double-tap strikes became easier to execute with introduction of the drone warfare and, along with signature strikes, became the subject of debate during the US war in Afghanistan.[6] Double-tap strikes have been used by Saudi Arabia during its military intervention in Yemen,[7][8] by the United States in Pakistan and Yemen,[9][10][11] by Israel in Gaza in 2014[12] and also during Israel-Hamas war in 2024,[13] by Russia and the Syrian government in the Syrian civil war[14][15] and by Russia and Ukraine in the Russo-Ukrainian War, especially in the full-scale invasion in 2022.[16][17] (Double tap strike)posted by kmt at 8:32 AM on September 18 [11 favorites]
and sure: this action makes sense, if you are a terrorist organization.
Yeah, that kind of sums up the defenses in this thread.
posted by tavella at 8:32 AM on September 18 [9 favorites]
Yeah, that kind of sums up the defenses in this thread.
posted by tavella at 8:32 AM on September 18 [9 favorites]
The U.S. State Dept says the U.S. was not involved in the pager explosions in Lebanon and was not aware of the incident beforehand.
In unrelated news, the American University of Beirut Medical Center replaced the pagers of their doctors and staff 2 weeks ago.
Can we just not with this lazy conspiracy theory garbage?
posted by gwint at 8:33 AM on September 18 [6 favorites]
In unrelated news, the American University of Beirut Medical Center replaced the pagers of their doctors and staff 2 weeks ago.
Can we just not with this lazy conspiracy theory garbage?
posted by gwint at 8:33 AM on September 18 [6 favorites]
Reports of people holding walkie talkies having their hands blown off (in the CNN link above). I guess you can fit more explosives into a larger physical device - I imagine many walkie talkies are larger than a standard pager.
I have some walkie talkies for hiking - and now I can't get the image out of my head that my kids used to just play with them all the time. Let alone first responders using them in their day to day business.
posted by inflatablekiwi at 8:35 AM on September 18 [5 favorites]
I have some walkie talkies for hiking - and now I can't get the image out of my head that my kids used to just play with them all the time. Let alone first responders using them in their day to day business.
posted by inflatablekiwi at 8:35 AM on September 18 [5 favorites]
I'm seeing a phone shop going up in smoke. I guess IDF's target-blindness has arrived in Lebanon. Again.
posted by cendawanita at 8:36 AM on September 18 [6 favorites]
posted by cendawanita at 8:36 AM on September 18 [6 favorites]
NYT report from the funeral of 9-year-old Fatima Abdullah (archive) notes that an 11-year-old boy, Bilal Kanj, has also died from his wounds in the explosions.
Fatima was in the kitchen on Tuesday when a pager on the table began to beep, her aunt said. She picked up the device to bring it to her father and was holding it when it exploded, mangling her face and leaving the room covered in blood, she said.
“Fatima was trying to take courses in English,” Ms. Mousawi said. “She loved English.”
posted by mediareport at 8:40 AM on September 18 [16 favorites]
Fatima was in the kitchen on Tuesday when a pager on the table began to beep, her aunt said. She picked up the device to bring it to her father and was holding it when it exploded, mangling her face and leaving the room covered in blood, she said.
“Fatima was trying to take courses in English,” Ms. Mousawi said. “She loved English.”
posted by mediareport at 8:40 AM on September 18 [16 favorites]
Wouldn't it have been more useful to fit-out the pagers with gps and whatever else data capture. If they can get them and stuff explosives in them, they can get them, stuff them with info collecting devices - then use that info to dis-mantle ... I mean, unless their goal was... ooof.
posted by From Bklyn at 8:41 AM on September 18 [3 favorites]
posted by From Bklyn at 8:41 AM on September 18 [3 favorites]
Can we just not with this lazy conspiracy theory garbage?
the main reason you know it's garbage is that upgrading a hospital's pager system is going to be a nontrivial IT project (the email says they were switching a bunch of people over to Webex!) and therefore hardly something that could be done at short notice. this would have been planned for ages
posted by BungaDunga at 8:41 AM on September 18 [12 favorites]
the main reason you know it's garbage is that upgrading a hospital's pager system is going to be a nontrivial IT project (the email says they were switching a bunch of people over to Webex!) and therefore hardly something that could be done at short notice. this would have been planned for ages
posted by BungaDunga at 8:41 AM on September 18 [12 favorites]
I mean, wow. The idea that Israeli intelligence services have apparently been seeding explosive devices in cities all over Lebanon for months in preparation for a future ground invasion is just....
wow.
posted by mediareport at 8:43 AM on September 18 [11 favorites]
wow.
posted by mediareport at 8:43 AM on September 18 [11 favorites]
Not ascribing credence, but I've seen people point out that the timeline of the phasing out programme (eta: at AUBMC) coincided with the arrival of the new pager shipment. But, not that it matters or useful to speculate. We've got a second round of explosions.
Anyway, maybe I'm too hard on Biden. After all: The following day, September 18, the day that Sabra and Shatila the massacres ended, Reagan released a statement, expressing “outrage and revulsion over the murders” and “demanding that the Israeli Government immediately withdraw its forces from West Beirut to the positions occupied on September 14.”
He's just waiting until this is over. Otherwise I have to contemplate an actually senile president is more with it than a just-racist one.
posted by cendawanita at 8:44 AM on September 18 [5 favorites]
Anyway, maybe I'm too hard on Biden. After all: The following day, September 18, the day that Sabra and Shatila the massacres ended, Reagan released a statement, expressing “outrage and revulsion over the murders” and “demanding that the Israeli Government immediately withdraw its forces from West Beirut to the positions occupied on September 14.”
He's just waiting until this is over. Otherwise I have to contemplate an actually senile president is more with it than a just-racist one.
posted by cendawanita at 8:44 AM on September 18 [5 favorites]
Prem Thakker:
The Israeli government committed mass terrorism on Lebanon yesterday. They were not intimidated by whatever the US — their largest weapons supplier — said in response. Politicians & the media meanwhile whitewashed, even glorified it.
So they went ahead and did it again today.
posted by Glegrinof the Pig-Man at 8:45 AM on September 18 [21 favorites]
The Israeli government committed mass terrorism on Lebanon yesterday. They were not intimidated by whatever the US — their largest weapons supplier — said in response. Politicians & the media meanwhile whitewashed, even glorified it.
So they went ahead and did it again today.
posted by Glegrinof the Pig-Man at 8:45 AM on September 18 [21 favorites]
The idea that Israeli intelligence services have apparently been seeding explosive devices in cities
One would think this level of savvy and acumen was present to 1) prevent October 7; and 2) know where are the hostages in Gaza!
(I'm not pointing out how they could reduce civilian casualties because--)
posted by cendawanita at 8:46 AM on September 18 [8 favorites]
One would think this level of savvy and acumen was present to 1) prevent October 7; and 2) know where are the hostages in Gaza!
(I'm not pointing out how they could reduce civilian casualties because--)
posted by cendawanita at 8:46 AM on September 18 [8 favorites]
anyway they're absolute going to pivot from "this wasn't indiscriminate" to "we didn't mean to blow up a funeral" any second
posted by BungaDunga at 8:47 AM on September 18 [6 favorites]
posted by BungaDunga at 8:47 AM on September 18 [6 favorites]
Wouldn't it have been more useful to fit-out the pagers with gps and whatever else data capture.
Walkie-talkies and pagers they probably can just capture the communications directly over the air and triangulate signals (and if they got into the supply chain deep enough to imbed explosives - any "encrypted" devices probably were backdoored or encryption keys exposed anyway (all my uneducated guess). Explosives have the "advantage" that you're not adding any additional data storage or outbound signals (assuming it uses existing pager/RF to trigger the explosion).
posted by inflatablekiwi at 8:48 AM on September 18
Walkie-talkies and pagers they probably can just capture the communications directly over the air and triangulate signals (and if they got into the supply chain deep enough to imbed explosives - any "encrypted" devices probably were backdoored or encryption keys exposed anyway (all my uneducated guess). Explosives have the "advantage" that you're not adding any additional data storage or outbound signals (assuming it uses existing pager/RF to trigger the explosion).
posted by inflatablekiwi at 8:48 AM on September 18
> Not ascribing credence
Oh good.
> but
Uh oh
> I've seen people point out that the timeline of the phasing out programme (eta: at AUBMC) coincided with the arrival of the new pager shipment
Yeah, that's ascribing credence.
posted by gwint at 8:50 AM on September 18 [3 favorites]
Oh good.
> but
Uh oh
> I've seen people point out that the timeline of the phasing out programme (eta: at AUBMC) coincided with the arrival of the new pager shipment
Yeah, that's ascribing credence.
posted by gwint at 8:50 AM on September 18 [3 favorites]
Imagine you send out thousands of exploding devices. Once you do that, you need to use them pretty soon after doing so, or you're going to have those devices moving around, changing hands, becoming obsolete, etc.. There was no way for Israel to cancel this plan, seeing that explosives were embedded in so many devices, and the longer they were in circulation, the more likely someone would discover the explosive (or some other mishap).
On the technical side, there are likely unexploded devices still. No technology is 100% effective, there had to be some that didn't work out...and now an entire country is on edge about their personal electronic devices. What a mess.
posted by Chuffy at 8:51 AM on September 18 [1 favorite]
On the technical side, there are likely unexploded devices still. No technology is 100% effective, there had to be some that didn't work out...and now an entire country is on edge about their personal electronic devices. What a mess.
posted by Chuffy at 8:51 AM on September 18 [1 favorite]
Landmines in consumer tech. This is just fine.
posted by cendawanita at 8:51 AM on September 18 [33 favorites]
posted by cendawanita at 8:51 AM on September 18 [33 favorites]
and now an entire country is on edge about their personal electronic devices. What a mess.
The cruelty is the point.
posted by Glegrinof the Pig-Man at 8:53 AM on September 18 [26 favorites]
The cruelty is the point.
posted by Glegrinof the Pig-Man at 8:53 AM on September 18 [26 favorites]
Walkie-talkies and pagers they probably can just capture the communications directly over the air and triangulate signals
These were one-way pagers, they weren't meant to be transmitting anything. Which is why smuggling a homing signal into them would likely be tricky, though obviously useful. Maybe they did that too, who knows.
Lebanon's official news agency reports that home solar energy systems exploded in several areas of Beirut
posted by BungaDunga at 8:53 AM on September 18 [9 favorites]
These were one-way pagers, they weren't meant to be transmitting anything. Which is why smuggling a homing signal into them would likely be tricky, though obviously useful. Maybe they did that too, who knows.
Lebanon's official news agency reports that home solar energy systems exploded in several areas of Beirut
posted by BungaDunga at 8:53 AM on September 18 [9 favorites]
The idea that Israeli intelligence services have apparently been seeding explosive devices in cities all over Lebanon... wow.
Horrifying? Terrorism? A massive crime?
A lot of judgment hinges on whether you believe the pagers targeted only people who "deserved" to be assassinated or if you are more concerned about the various civilian casualties including many children, several dead. I recognize there's ambiguity about that, particularly without access to the facts of who all got blown up. But I have my own gut reaction.
A second moral question is whether Israel has a right to respond in kind to Hezbollah's terrorist and indiscriminate attacks. I tend to want to hold Israel to a higher standard, in hopes they remain something more like a lawful democracy. Increasingly hard to believe that they even aspire to that anymore.
The final thing I'm noticing talking to casual Americans about this is "wow this was a really cool bit of spycraft!" Which yeah, I guess so? Also that's a psychopathic reaction, albeit perhaps also natural.
posted by Nelson at 8:57 AM on September 18 [8 favorites]
Horrifying? Terrorism? A massive crime?
A lot of judgment hinges on whether you believe the pagers targeted only people who "deserved" to be assassinated or if you are more concerned about the various civilian casualties including many children, several dead. I recognize there's ambiguity about that, particularly without access to the facts of who all got blown up. But I have my own gut reaction.
A second moral question is whether Israel has a right to respond in kind to Hezbollah's terrorist and indiscriminate attacks. I tend to want to hold Israel to a higher standard, in hopes they remain something more like a lawful democracy. Increasingly hard to believe that they even aspire to that anymore.
The final thing I'm noticing talking to casual Americans about this is "wow this was a really cool bit of spycraft!" Which yeah, I guess so? Also that's a psychopathic reaction, albeit perhaps also natural.
posted by Nelson at 8:57 AM on September 18 [8 favorites]
I'm really excited about just not being able to bring any electronic device with an antenna on to an airplane whether checked or carry on. Including all laptops, ereaders, phones, tablets, many watches, some flash lights, any IoT device, anything bluetooth enabled, ...
posted by Mitheral at 8:57 AM on September 18 [17 favorites]
posted by Mitheral at 8:57 AM on September 18 [17 favorites]
As for the American University of Beirut pager replacement rumor, they've issued a statement that's been reprinted in various press outlets
posted by Nelson at 8:59 AM on September 18 [11 favorites]
At a crucial time when AUBMC physicians, nurses, and staff have been fully mobilized to deal with the aftermath of today’s injuries, several malicious social media outlets have started spreading rumors and conspiracy theories about the types of communications systems AUB has in place, attempting to link AUB to this tragic event. The universityThe ABU hospital is the center of a lot of medical response to Israel's indiscriminate bombing. Photos and details here, here, here, and here. They are fighting to save lives right now, it's kind of awful that they're also having to answer a conspiracy theory about an IT project.
categorically denies these baseless allegations. ...
posted by Nelson at 8:59 AM on September 18 [11 favorites]
I'm counting how many things on my desk as I write this have a battery, electronics, and a wireless communications channel.
Laptop, mobile phone, apple tv remote, apple watch, wireless headphones (Jesus - you literally but those on your head - how much explosive would you really need!), Airpods, GoPro camera, wifi mesh pod, fan remote control, and a Nintendo switch. So ten things.
And then other things that would make a really good bomb due to size and weight where maybe you could hide a comms channel in it - I have two USB portable power banks/bricks as an example.
Edit: And a wireless mouse and keyboard, and a Bluetooth conference speaker.
posted by inflatablekiwi at 9:01 AM on September 18 [13 favorites]
Laptop, mobile phone, apple tv remote, apple watch, wireless headphones (Jesus - you literally but those on your head - how much explosive would you really need!), Airpods, GoPro camera, wifi mesh pod, fan remote control, and a Nintendo switch. So ten things.
And then other things that would make a really good bomb due to size and weight where maybe you could hide a comms channel in it - I have two USB portable power banks/bricks as an example.
Edit: And a wireless mouse and keyboard, and a Bluetooth conference speaker.
posted by inflatablekiwi at 9:01 AM on September 18 [13 favorites]
Looks like we're all rawdogging air travel.
posted by cendawanita at 9:02 AM on September 18 [25 favorites]
posted by cendawanita at 9:02 AM on September 18 [25 favorites]
and now an entire country is on edge about their personal electronic devices. What a mess.
terrorism
our collective security language just changed. I'm not sure if this needs to be hammered home anymore than it has been, but things don't stay Over There. The genocide of Palestinians does not fit neatly into geographic borders, the steady acceleration of horror and this demonstration of unhinged murderousness is going to get very real for everyone
people getting forced out of homes, land getting stolen, brute force and mass surveillance and every advance in raw control, you'd have to fucking laugh at how we will reap all this if it wasn't so sad. get a good look at what is coming
posted by ginger.beef at 9:04 AM on September 18 [21 favorites]
terrorism
our collective security language just changed. I'm not sure if this needs to be hammered home anymore than it has been, but things don't stay Over There. The genocide of Palestinians does not fit neatly into geographic borders, the steady acceleration of horror and this demonstration of unhinged murderousness is going to get very real for everyone
people getting forced out of homes, land getting stolen, brute force and mass surveillance and every advance in raw control, you'd have to fucking laugh at how we will reap all this if it wasn't so sad. get a good look at what is coming
posted by ginger.beef at 9:04 AM on September 18 [21 favorites]
I'm counting how many things on my desk as I write this have a battery, electronics, and a wireless communications channel.
I have a distinct childhood memory of getting my wires crossed and somehow thinking that someone had booby-trapped tickle-me elmos with bombs. I have no idea which two news stories I managed to combine into that...
posted by BungaDunga at 9:05 AM on September 18
I have a distinct childhood memory of getting my wires crossed and somehow thinking that someone had booby-trapped tickle-me elmos with bombs. I have no idea which two news stories I managed to combine into that...
posted by BungaDunga at 9:05 AM on September 18
Was this an own goal by Israel? [BBC | News Live Blog]
If Israel’s Mossad spy agency has indeed managed to sabotage almost the entire communications network of its enemy, Hezbollah, then when is the most effective time to deliver that blow?posted by mazola at 9:08 AM on September 18 [3 favorites]
The answer surely has to be: just before or during a major military offensive by the Israel Defense Forces against Hezbollah. And yet there is little or no sign of that happening.
The NYTimes also reports that Israel’s Pager Attack Has No Clear Strategic Goal. (Archive Link) The article is filled with people saying the move made no sense, that the left hand doesn't know what the right hand is doing, etc. And meanwhile, people have died.
posted by Winnie the Proust at 9:19 AM on September 18 [7 favorites]
posted by Winnie the Proust at 9:19 AM on September 18 [7 favorites]
I'm really excited about just not being able to bring any electronic device with an antenna on to an airplane...
A profitable technology company I once worked for had an interesting policy -- any time an exec went to certain countries, they brought along a specialized laptop that had been rigged for physical intrusion detection (via that weird "smart dust" stuff). When they came back, that laptop never entered the HQ building again -- instead it went to a separate facility where they scanned the living fuck out of it with various scanning devices before opening it and VERY closely photographing every element of the internals.
After that it went into an industrial shredder. Even if it had never been out of the direct sight of the exec.
posted by aramaic at 9:21 AM on September 18 [28 favorites]
A profitable technology company I once worked for had an interesting policy -- any time an exec went to certain countries, they brought along a specialized laptop that had been rigged for physical intrusion detection (via that weird "smart dust" stuff). When they came back, that laptop never entered the HQ building again -- instead it went to a separate facility where they scanned the living fuck out of it with various scanning devices before opening it and VERY closely photographing every element of the internals.
After that it went into an industrial shredder. Even if it had never been out of the direct sight of the exec.
posted by aramaic at 9:21 AM on September 18 [28 favorites]
Actually you're just precognisant, BungaDunga, the explosive tickle-me elmos re-release happens 10 years form now.
posted by jeffburdges at 9:24 AM on September 18 [1 favorite]
posted by jeffburdges at 9:24 AM on September 18 [1 favorite]
You better believe antisemites are gonna make hay out of the paranoia about electronic devices this will kick off. This is a disaster for the whole world.
posted by straight at 9:27 AM on September 18 [1 favorite]
posted by straight at 9:27 AM on September 18 [1 favorite]
aramaic, are you saying Israel was one of those countries?
posted by mediareport at 9:28 AM on September 18
posted by mediareport at 9:28 AM on September 18
In the meantime I feel like the Global South has to reexamine the supply chain that pases through Europe, in addition to Israel. I don't know what North Americans will have to do.
Thanks Israel, now China gets the upper hand. The Huawei accusations feel like projection now.
posted by cendawanita at 9:29 AM on September 18 [9 favorites]
Thanks Israel, now China gets the upper hand. The Huawei accusations feel like projection now.
posted by cendawanita at 9:29 AM on September 18 [9 favorites]
At least nine killed, 300 hurt after second wave of device explosions is reported in Lebanon
Canadian press is also reporting it.
Echoing the sentiments on the previous thread... It's not really war, just pure stark terrorism... a highlight of our species' outshining performance for the cosmos communicating not to send anymore souls here, for they will suffer purely as consciousness trapped in flesh over many generations until -- against all conceivable odds -- somehow our species manages to mature.
posted by human ecologist at 9:30 AM on September 18 [7 favorites]
Canadian press is also reporting it.
Echoing the sentiments on the previous thread... It's not really war, just pure stark terrorism... a highlight of our species' outshining performance for the cosmos communicating not to send anymore souls here, for they will suffer purely as consciousness trapped in flesh over many generations until -- against all conceivable odds -- somehow our species manages to mature.
posted by human ecologist at 9:30 AM on September 18 [7 favorites]
Bernie Sanders (who's at least not such a racist that he stopped governing per his job function): Netanyahu’s right-wing, extremist government is violating international & US law and has created a humanitarian disaster in Gaza.
Today, I announced that I will file Joint Resolutions of Disapproval to stop the sale of U.S. arms to Israel and end our complicity in this disaster.
(Tweet has his press statement)
I used up my daily FPP allotment because of an incredible film trailer, but coincidentally: (Haaretz ungated) UN Overwhelmingly Votes on Resolution to Impose Sanctions, Arms Embargo on Israel -
The U.S. urged the General Assembly to vote no but lacked veto power, arguing that the resolution undermined the prospects for a two-state solution
Now there's a thing of timing.
posted by cendawanita at 9:36 AM on September 18 [20 favorites]
Today, I announced that I will file Joint Resolutions of Disapproval to stop the sale of U.S. arms to Israel and end our complicity in this disaster.
(Tweet has his press statement)
I used up my daily FPP allotment because of an incredible film trailer, but coincidentally: (Haaretz ungated) UN Overwhelmingly Votes on Resolution to Impose Sanctions, Arms Embargo on Israel -
The U.S. urged the General Assembly to vote no but lacked veto power, arguing that the resolution undermined the prospects for a two-state solution
Now there's a thing of timing.
posted by cendawanita at 9:36 AM on September 18 [20 favorites]
What Biden will do is extremely relevant. Without the tacit support of the US, Israel's latitude to get away with this sort of thing will be significantly hampered, if not gone altogether. I'm not even going to mention Harris, as right now her endorsement or lack of same is mostly only meaningful in a symbolic way.
posted by kittens for breakfast at 9:40 AM on September 18 [6 favorites]
posted by kittens for breakfast at 9:40 AM on September 18 [6 favorites]
The Huawei accusations feel like projection now
Projections? We already know that China and Russia have worked hard to penetrate US infrastructure through cyberattacks (as well as in France and elsewhere) The supply chain has been a security concern for states for decades.
posted by gwint at 9:41 AM on September 18 [4 favorites]
Projections? We already know that China and Russia have worked hard to penetrate US infrastructure through cyberattacks (as well as in France and elsewhere) The supply chain has been a security concern for states for decades.
posted by gwint at 9:41 AM on September 18 [4 favorites]
Absolutely agree. I'm thinking of the more outlandish claims at the time, but apparently Israel just decided to do a demo.
posted by cendawanita at 9:43 AM on September 18 [3 favorites]
posted by cendawanita at 9:43 AM on September 18 [3 favorites]
NYT: Israel's defense minister, Yoav Gallant, said the “center of gravity” of Israel’s war with its enemies is “moving north,” referring to the country’s northern border with Lebanon. Gallant said he estimates the countries are now found “at the outset of a new period in this war,” according to a statement by his office. He did not explicitly mention the explosions in Lebanon or claim Israeli responsibility.
I haven't read anything yet about large troop movements to the north, but this does not sound good.
posted by gwint at 9:47 AM on September 18 [1 favorite]
I haven't read anything yet about large troop movements to the north, but this does not sound good.
posted by gwint at 9:47 AM on September 18 [1 favorite]
The Huawei accusations feel like projection now.
When did they ever not?
The NYTimes also reports that Israel’s Pager Attack Has No Clear Strategic Goal.
Bibi has been perfectly clear about Israel's overarching strategy, not that he's ever really needed to because it's been obvious for decades: "anybody who hurts us, we hurt them worse".
Not saying that's a smart strategy, or a justifiable strategy, or even an effective strategy for a nation whose raison d'être is supposed to be safety, but it is undoubtedly the strategy. Would that it were not, but it is.
posted by flabdablet at 9:51 AM on September 18 [10 favorites]
When did they ever not?
The NYTimes also reports that Israel’s Pager Attack Has No Clear Strategic Goal.
Bibi has been perfectly clear about Israel's overarching strategy, not that he's ever really needed to because it's been obvious for decades: "anybody who hurts us, we hurt them worse".
Not saying that's a smart strategy, or a justifiable strategy, or even an effective strategy for a nation whose raison d'être is supposed to be safety, but it is undoubtedly the strategy. Would that it were not, but it is.
posted by flabdablet at 9:51 AM on September 18 [10 favorites]
Okay, so Israel has done a first-use on a disruptive military technology that has the potential to destabilize global commerce and decrease human security around the world. And they did it all because, no reason. "Use it or lose it."
This is Drake Equation scale irresponsibility.
posted by Winnie the Proust at 9:57 AM on September 18 [21 favorites]
This is Drake Equation scale irresponsibility.
posted by Winnie the Proust at 9:57 AM on September 18 [21 favorites]
The Huawei accusations feel like projection now
The US and our allied spies have been subverting electronics and algorithms for eavesdropping for 40+ years now. Of course we're worried about Chinese companies doing the same thing because we know how powerful subverted tools are. Two examples: Crypto AG encryption machines which were subverted by the CIA and West German intelligence. And Dual_EC_DRBG, an encryption algorithm that the NSA placed a back door in. There are also numerous rumors about various parts of Intel CPUs that have been compromised over the years although I think that's not as well documented.
But that's a far cry from putting bombs in thousands of pagers and sending them out in the world to blow up. That's brazen even for Israel.
posted by Nelson at 10:01 AM on September 18 [10 favorites]
The US and our allied spies have been subverting electronics and algorithms for eavesdropping for 40+ years now. Of course we're worried about Chinese companies doing the same thing because we know how powerful subverted tools are. Two examples: Crypto AG encryption machines which were subverted by the CIA and West German intelligence. And Dual_EC_DRBG, an encryption algorithm that the NSA placed a back door in. There are also numerous rumors about various parts of Intel CPUs that have been compromised over the years although I think that's not as well documented.
But that's a far cry from putting bombs in thousands of pagers and sending them out in the world to blow up. That's brazen even for Israel.
posted by Nelson at 10:01 AM on September 18 [10 favorites]
Start your veto clock - Rami Ayari:
Diplomats say the #UNSC will convene an urgent meeting on Friday afternoon regarding pager attacks in #Lebanon. Meeting requested by @AlgeriaUN . Still unclear whether it will be open or held as closed consultations.
It has been confirmed now that it will be an open briefing. 3 pm NY time on Friday.
posted by cendawanita at 10:02 AM on September 18 [3 favorites]
Diplomats say the #UNSC will convene an urgent meeting on Friday afternoon regarding pager attacks in #Lebanon. Meeting requested by @AlgeriaUN . Still unclear whether it will be open or held as closed consultations.
It has been confirmed now that it will be an open briefing. 3 pm NY time on Friday.
posted by cendawanita at 10:02 AM on September 18 [3 favorites]
Hundreds of people blinded. Goddamned war criminals. Boycott Israel NOW!
posted by elmono at 10:05 AM on September 18 [8 favorites]
posted by elmono at 10:05 AM on September 18 [8 favorites]
Are the terror apologists in this thread going to insist that blowing up solar panels was also a "targeted" attack? Because due to Lebanon's persistent energy grid problems, adoption of private solar systems has increased 2500% over the past decade (and iiuc, more than half of that is just in the last couple years).
posted by adrienneleigh at 10:14 AM on September 18 [11 favorites]
posted by adrienneleigh at 10:14 AM on September 18 [11 favorites]
On the upside, this was the world's most moral terrorist atrocity. And, as always, fully compliant with international law! Israel is as a wonder unto many.
posted by flabdablet at 10:14 AM on September 18 [8 favorites]
posted by flabdablet at 10:14 AM on September 18 [8 favorites]
Also, i'm really not sure where the notion that these were "special encrypted pagers" comes from. I understand that it's made it into a bunch of the reporting, but as far as the hardware folks I know can tell, these were a bog-standard model of low-end one-way POCSAG pager.
posted by adrienneleigh at 10:20 AM on September 18 [5 favorites]
posted by adrienneleigh at 10:20 AM on September 18 [5 favorites]
Both cruel and unusual. Damn.
posted by riverlife at 10:23 AM on September 18 [3 favorites]
posted by riverlife at 10:23 AM on September 18 [3 favorites]
(I mentioned encryption above but more in relation to the now exploding walkie talkies which are bi-directional and often have some form of "encryption" - mostly just simple key based if I understand - even at the consumer digital walkie talkie level - realizing we don't yet know the brands / models of those impacted. Not so much the pagers.)
posted by inflatablekiwi at 10:32 AM on September 18 [1 favorite]
posted by inflatablekiwi at 10:32 AM on September 18 [1 favorite]
There's going to be a huge monetary cost associated with efforts to secure supply chains and review every single device currently in use.
I remember about 20 years ago when there used to be a lot more discourse—or maybe it was just what I happened to be reading at the time—about the fundamental physical security of computing devices with global supply chains. I read a lot about that from an infosec perspective, like how we might know that the chips in our computers don't have backdoors, what checks exist to prevent counterfeiting and incursions, etc. That was pre-Stuxnet.
If anything, I feel like this situation is worse now, as international supply chains have become even less traceable and accountable. I'm thinking about some of the research Bunnie Huang has done on microSD cards, revealing vulnerabilities that could allow arbitrary code execution, counterfeit cards made on ghost shifts at factories, etc. In districts where the prototyping and fabrication of consumer electronics is done these days, you can take a walk down the street and find vendors selling fake components right alongside real ones. Or from what it sounds like may have happened here, you can potentially license a trusted company's name to a poorly vetted subsidiary that creates some substandard and/or literally explosive version of an item.
All of this has been possible for a long time, and as documented above, governments of other countries including the U.S. have tampered with consumer electronics. But with this and other war crimes that target noncombatants in violation of international law, Israel is increasing the stakes for everyone in an incredibly dangerous way.
posted by limeonaire at 10:36 AM on September 18 [8 favorites]
I remember about 20 years ago when there used to be a lot more discourse—or maybe it was just what I happened to be reading at the time—about the fundamental physical security of computing devices with global supply chains. I read a lot about that from an infosec perspective, like how we might know that the chips in our computers don't have backdoors, what checks exist to prevent counterfeiting and incursions, etc. That was pre-Stuxnet.
If anything, I feel like this situation is worse now, as international supply chains have become even less traceable and accountable. I'm thinking about some of the research Bunnie Huang has done on microSD cards, revealing vulnerabilities that could allow arbitrary code execution, counterfeit cards made on ghost shifts at factories, etc. In districts where the prototyping and fabrication of consumer electronics is done these days, you can take a walk down the street and find vendors selling fake components right alongside real ones. Or from what it sounds like may have happened here, you can potentially license a trusted company's name to a poorly vetted subsidiary that creates some substandard and/or literally explosive version of an item.
All of this has been possible for a long time, and as documented above, governments of other countries including the U.S. have tampered with consumer electronics. But with this and other war crimes that target noncombatants in violation of international law, Israel is increasing the stakes for everyone in an incredibly dangerous way.
posted by limeonaire at 10:36 AM on September 18 [8 favorites]
Yeah, shit is getting dark. Feels like the writers are just softening us up for TFG's next Presidency.
posted by flabdablet at 10:42 AM on September 18 [1 favorite]
posted by flabdablet at 10:42 AM on September 18 [1 favorite]
The original pager attack was terrifying, unconscionable, and deeply sad, as is the follow-up attack today. I want to add some context to this thread about Lebanon and the war more generally.
1) WHAT IS HEZBOLLAH?
- Many Lebanese people I know hate Hezbollah, which has ensured there's been no President in Lebanon for the last few years, may have been involved in the port explosion, and has assassinated journalists like Lokman Slim. That being said, the whole story is a complicated!
- Hezbollah was created from the Israeli invasion of southern Lebanon in 1982. Who knows if it would've ever existed had Lebanon not been invaded? They forced out the invasion as recently as 2000.
- What makes Hezbollah unique is that it is both a militia and a political party that has representation in the Lebanese state: for example, there are Hezbollah members in the Lebanese parliament; the chair of the Media and Telecommunications Committee is Hezbollah. The Lebanese constitution created by the French colonialists essentially means that certain places will always be represented by a group like Hezbollah.
- As Suleiman Mourad writes in the New Left Review blog: "Far from being a puppet of Tehran, Hezbollah must be understood as a powerful political party with a strong militia and a significant influence in several countries beyond its native Lebanon – Syria, Iraq, Palestine, Yemen."
2) THIS ATTACK TARGETED CIVILIANS IN VIOLATION OF INTERNATIONAL LAW.
- The Lebanese political system is a clientist, sectarian one and Hezbollah represents the people in the south, who have traditionally been the poor peasant farmers. This means that Hezbollah provides substantial services there, sort of between a mafia and a somewhat functional welfare state in a country that experienced the worst economic crash in world history. As Adam Tooze writes, for these people, Hezbollah provides electricity, solar panels, generators, banking, loans, and more.
- That means that you can't really say that it's okay just to kill any Hezbollah member because they're terrorists, since that might include a loan officer at a bank, a solar panel installer, a congressman, an electrician--and all their families and the people they're standing right next to.
- And that's what's happened! From the initial attack, I haven't seen reports of fighters killed (something Hezbollah usually advertises). The two people killed were children.
- That attack was intended to kill civilians. As Aljazeera reported, the pagers were packed with metal balls so the shrapnel would shoot outwards and injure any bystanders who happened to be around.
- I think more generally, if you say that someone is terrorist, you'll very quickly be okay with saying it's okay to kill millions of those people because you've put them in the category of killable people. This seems bad!
3) THE CROSS-BORDER ATTACKS ARE QUALITATIVELY DIFFERENT.
- While a lot of news outlets talk of Hezbollah and the IDF "trading fire," the nature of the attacks have been totally different in scale and intention.
- In August 2024, the BBC wrote: "Data gathered by the US-based Armed Conflict Location and Event Data Project (Acled) and analysed by the BBC suggest both sides together carried out a combined 7,491 cross-border attacks between 8 October 2023 and 5 July 2024. These figures indicated that Israel has carried out around five times as many as Hezbollah."
- Since October, as Reuters reported, Israel set fire to Southern Lebanon and destroyed 40,000 olive trees, often using white phosphorus (against international law). White phosphorus is a chemical warfare agent that melts skin and poisons the land so it cannot be used for agriculture.
- A July 2024 strike killed children in the Golan Heights. Israel claims it was Hezbollah and Hezbollah denies it, with some claiming the strike came from an Iron Dome malfunction. What's important here is that the people killed were Syrian Druze, many of whom want their territory to be part of Syria and who have been outspoken about not wanting to be politically exploited by either side.
4) A REMINDER THAT 300,000 (NOT 30,000) PEOPLE HAVE BEEN KILLED IN GAZA.
The Lancet estimated that the conflict would kill 186,000 by mid-June 2024. Writing in the Guardian, Prof Devi Sridhar, chair of global public health at the University of Edinburgh, applied their methods to the present. She said that in Sept 2024, the number of people killed in Gaza is probably around 335,500. This is in a place where 40% of the population is children.
posted by johnasdf at 10:44 AM on September 18 [50 favorites]
1) WHAT IS HEZBOLLAH?
- Many Lebanese people I know hate Hezbollah, which has ensured there's been no President in Lebanon for the last few years, may have been involved in the port explosion, and has assassinated journalists like Lokman Slim. That being said, the whole story is a complicated!
- Hezbollah was created from the Israeli invasion of southern Lebanon in 1982. Who knows if it would've ever existed had Lebanon not been invaded? They forced out the invasion as recently as 2000.
- What makes Hezbollah unique is that it is both a militia and a political party that has representation in the Lebanese state: for example, there are Hezbollah members in the Lebanese parliament; the chair of the Media and Telecommunications Committee is Hezbollah. The Lebanese constitution created by the French colonialists essentially means that certain places will always be represented by a group like Hezbollah.
- As Suleiman Mourad writes in the New Left Review blog: "Far from being a puppet of Tehran, Hezbollah must be understood as a powerful political party with a strong militia and a significant influence in several countries beyond its native Lebanon – Syria, Iraq, Palestine, Yemen."
2) THIS ATTACK TARGETED CIVILIANS IN VIOLATION OF INTERNATIONAL LAW.
- The Lebanese political system is a clientist, sectarian one and Hezbollah represents the people in the south, who have traditionally been the poor peasant farmers. This means that Hezbollah provides substantial services there, sort of between a mafia and a somewhat functional welfare state in a country that experienced the worst economic crash in world history. As Adam Tooze writes, for these people, Hezbollah provides electricity, solar panels, generators, banking, loans, and more.
- That means that you can't really say that it's okay just to kill any Hezbollah member because they're terrorists, since that might include a loan officer at a bank, a solar panel installer, a congressman, an electrician--and all their families and the people they're standing right next to.
- And that's what's happened! From the initial attack, I haven't seen reports of fighters killed (something Hezbollah usually advertises). The two people killed were children.
- That attack was intended to kill civilians. As Aljazeera reported, the pagers were packed with metal balls so the shrapnel would shoot outwards and injure any bystanders who happened to be around.
- I think more generally, if you say that someone is terrorist, you'll very quickly be okay with saying it's okay to kill millions of those people because you've put them in the category of killable people. This seems bad!
3) THE CROSS-BORDER ATTACKS ARE QUALITATIVELY DIFFERENT.
- While a lot of news outlets talk of Hezbollah and the IDF "trading fire," the nature of the attacks have been totally different in scale and intention.
- In August 2024, the BBC wrote: "Data gathered by the US-based Armed Conflict Location and Event Data Project (Acled) and analysed by the BBC suggest both sides together carried out a combined 7,491 cross-border attacks between 8 October 2023 and 5 July 2024. These figures indicated that Israel has carried out around five times as many as Hezbollah."
- Since October, as Reuters reported, Israel set fire to Southern Lebanon and destroyed 40,000 olive trees, often using white phosphorus (against international law). White phosphorus is a chemical warfare agent that melts skin and poisons the land so it cannot be used for agriculture.
- A July 2024 strike killed children in the Golan Heights. Israel claims it was Hezbollah and Hezbollah denies it, with some claiming the strike came from an Iron Dome malfunction. What's important here is that the people killed were Syrian Druze, many of whom want their territory to be part of Syria and who have been outspoken about not wanting to be politically exploited by either side.
4) A REMINDER THAT 300,000 (NOT 30,000) PEOPLE HAVE BEEN KILLED IN GAZA.
The Lancet estimated that the conflict would kill 186,000 by mid-June 2024. Writing in the Guardian, Prof Devi Sridhar, chair of global public health at the University of Edinburgh, applied their methods to the present. She said that in Sept 2024, the number of people killed in Gaza is probably around 335,500. This is in a place where 40% of the population is children.
posted by johnasdf at 10:44 AM on September 18 [50 favorites]
I've pushed back at some of the frequency of Gaza comments in other threads, so with this news I feel its important for me to state clearly:
Israel is a terrorist state. They sent thousands of bombs out into the civilian population of a country, and willingly detonated them. We don't have to guess at the aftermath, thousands of lives are ruined and some are ended. Children are dead. The ones that aren't dead but are injured have decades of dealing with trauma ahead of them.
This is literally comic book supervillain type behavior.
posted by Jarcat at 10:44 AM on September 18 [25 favorites]
Israel is a terrorist state. They sent thousands of bombs out into the civilian population of a country, and willingly detonated them. We don't have to guess at the aftermath, thousands of lives are ruined and some are ended. Children are dead. The ones that aren't dead but are injured have decades of dealing with trauma ahead of them.
This is literally comic book supervillain type behavior.
posted by Jarcat at 10:44 AM on September 18 [25 favorites]
inflatablekiwi: oh, i didn't mean you; you're almost certainly correct that the walkie-talkies had some sort of rudimentary key-based encryption, because almost all of them do. But several early news reports on the pagers (and several people in this thread) have asserted that they were special, "encrypted" devices, and that just flatly isn't true as far as i can tell. I'm not sure you *can* even encrypt POCSAG, and certainly not without controlling the broadcast source.
posted by adrienneleigh at 10:46 AM on September 18 [1 favorite]
posted by adrienneleigh at 10:46 AM on September 18 [1 favorite]
Winnie the Proust> This is Drake Equation scale irresponsibility.
No. It's global commerce that creates the existential risk though oil, gas, plastics, pesticides, meat, etc, or at least supercharges it. I certianly do hope this damages global commerce, because that'd improve our species survival odds, but that's sadly extremely unlikely.
At best, mobile device usage declines deamatically, which destroys the NASDAQ, every app startup, etc. Israel is economically insignificant though. We'll listen more once one of the big boys uses this attack, so Russa against Ukrain, or the US against Venezuela in the next coup, or China against Taiwan.
It's clear software supply chain attacks inspired this, so we'll guilt trip people who add features that makes software supply chain attack easier, so maybe software supply chain attack gets taken more seriously. Imho that's possible.
posted by jeffburdges at 10:47 AM on September 18 [3 favorites]
No. It's global commerce that creates the existential risk though oil, gas, plastics, pesticides, meat, etc, or at least supercharges it. I certianly do hope this damages global commerce, because that'd improve our species survival odds, but that's sadly extremely unlikely.
At best, mobile device usage declines deamatically, which destroys the NASDAQ, every app startup, etc. Israel is economically insignificant though. We'll listen more once one of the big boys uses this attack, so Russa against Ukrain, or the US against Venezuela in the next coup, or China against Taiwan.
It's clear software supply chain attacks inspired this, so we'll guilt trip people who add features that makes software supply chain attack easier, so maybe software supply chain attack gets taken more seriously. Imho that's possible.
posted by jeffburdges at 10:47 AM on September 18 [3 favorites]
I am not being humorous in any way when I suggest the average cell phone owner would not change their behavior if they thought there was a non-zero chance of their phone exploding and killing them. We have created an addiction that is basically impossible to break, I promise.
posted by kittens for breakfast at 10:56 AM on September 18 [10 favorites]
posted by kittens for breakfast at 10:56 AM on September 18 [10 favorites]
Time for some access journalism with Barak Ravid in Axios: Israel detonates Hezbollah walkie-talkies a day after pager attack
Behind the scenes: The two sources [with knowledge of the operation] said Israel's goal in the second wave of attacks was to increase paranoia and fear in Hezbollah's ranks, in an attempt to press the militia's leadership to change its policy regarding the conflict with Israel.
- "The goal was to convince Hezbollah that it is in its interest to disconnect itself from Hamas and cut a separate deal for ending the fighting with Israel regardless of a ceasefire in Gaza," the source said.
- The two sources added that the decision to conduct the second attack was also driven by the assessment that Hezbollah's investigation into the pager explosions would likely expose the security breach in the walkie-talkies.
posted by cendawanita at 10:59 AM on September 18 [2 favorites]
Behind the scenes: The two sources [with knowledge of the operation] said Israel's goal in the second wave of attacks was to increase paranoia and fear in Hezbollah's ranks, in an attempt to press the militia's leadership to change its policy regarding the conflict with Israel.
- "The goal was to convince Hezbollah that it is in its interest to disconnect itself from Hamas and cut a separate deal for ending the fighting with Israel regardless of a ceasefire in Gaza," the source said.
- The two sources added that the decision to conduct the second attack was also driven by the assessment that Hezbollah's investigation into the pager explosions would likely expose the security breach in the walkie-talkies.
posted by cendawanita at 10:59 AM on September 18 [2 favorites]
I'm curious, is there any serious political science work on whether Israel impacts the "overton window" for millitary and political actions?
Israeli companies definitely impacts the "cyber overton window" in practical ways:
Russian government hackers found using exploits made by spyware companies NSO and Intellexa
As I understand it, the genocide in Sudan has remained worse than the genocide in Gaza. Are any echos of Israeli policy being felt in how the genodie profeesses in Sudan?
Can Israel's genocide be demonstrated to inspiring particular Russian ations in Ukraine? Arguably, the Armenian genocide did inspite Russia's usage of convicts, but that's much older, and everyone knows the story.
posted by jeffburdges at 11:05 AM on September 18
Israeli companies definitely impacts the "cyber overton window" in practical ways:
Russian government hackers found using exploits made by spyware companies NSO and Intellexa
As I understand it, the genocide in Sudan has remained worse than the genocide in Gaza. Are any echos of Israeli policy being felt in how the genodie profeesses in Sudan?
Can Israel's genocide be demonstrated to inspiring particular Russian ations in Ukraine? Arguably, the Armenian genocide did inspite Russia's usage of convicts, but that's much older, and everyone knows the story.
posted by jeffburdges at 11:05 AM on September 18
On the upside, this was the world's most moral terrorist atrocity. And, as always, fully compliant with international law! Israel is as a wonder unto many.
No, you don't understand! It doesn't matter if it's compliant with international law, because international law is out to get Israel!
Apparently.
posted by Gadarene at 11:09 AM on September 18 [10 favorites]
No, you don't understand! It doesn't matter if it's compliant with international law, because international law is out to get Israel!
Apparently.
posted by Gadarene at 11:09 AM on September 18 [10 favorites]
if israel can plant explosives in consumer electronics and justify it by saying they were only targeting "terrorists" then it would be a good idea to remember that israel said that student protestors in america are terrorists
posted by Glegrinof the Pig-Man at 11:12 AM on September 18 [55 favorites]
posted by Glegrinof the Pig-Man at 11:12 AM on September 18 [55 favorites]
It depends upon the body count and the social status of the dead, kittens for breakfast. We lower speed limits or install traffic lights only once enough people of high enough social status die. Yes, smartphones are highly addictive, but afaik they're not really more addictive than driving, or driving fast.
We supposedly have plenty of wealthy parents who doing high tech jobs, but who keep their kids away form smartphones & social media until much later in life. Is this going to push more parents into that category? Yes of course. Is that going to cost advertisers money? Yes some.
Are such effects going to be noticable? I think no, not until the US, China, or Russia does this.
Asaide: Exploding Electronics talk at DefCon 22 (2014)
posted by jeffburdges at 11:14 AM on September 18 [1 favorite]
We supposedly have plenty of wealthy parents who doing high tech jobs, but who keep their kids away form smartphones & social media until much later in life. Is this going to push more parents into that category? Yes of course. Is that going to cost advertisers money? Yes some.
Are such effects going to be noticable? I think no, not until the US, China, or Russia does this.
Asaide: Exploding Electronics talk at DefCon 22 (2014)
posted by jeffburdges at 11:14 AM on September 18 [1 favorite]
That was pre-Stuxnet
I am not being humorous in any way when I suggest the average cell phone owner would not change their behavior if they thought there was a non-zero chance of their phone exploding and killing them. We have created an addiction that is basically impossible to break, I promise.
I was just going to say, it was still the earliest days of iPods when I was reading a lot about device infosec and opsec, too, so pre-iPhone. I didn't even have a cellphone yet at that point. In the last 20 years, almost all of us have opted into this tracking. And as early speculation about these attacks noted, most of us in the U.S. now are carrying some kind of lithium battery–powered tracking device with questionable supply-chain accountability almost all the time, even if we (most likely!) don't have a shady pager or walkie-talkie. Someone listed above all the types of personal electronics that they carry on a regular basis. Like how does one even protect against exploits and counterfeits? Make sure you install the latest security updates in case an exploit is found that could make your phone blow up, or your headphones eavesdrop on you? Or maybe only buy less common models so exploits are less likely? Could Kevlar purses proliferate the way blast-resistant trash cans and RFID-blocking wallets have?
One answer would be the typical police-state answer: You don't have to worry if you're not doing anything wrong that would put you on someone's radar. That's obviously a straw man. As explained so well above by johnasdf, organizations like the one targeted this time are complex political and military groups that include many civilians. Really I'm guessing a lot of what has kept this sort of thing from happening to this point has been concerns about knock-on effects and escalation, but also perhaps courtesy—the kind of courtesy that perhaps Israel's government views like the rules of bayonet warfare. In flouting international law and disregarding the collective courtesy that prohibits committing acts of terror, Israel is opening a door to a lot of bad things.
I'm guessing that rich people with entourages will increasingly have others vet and carry their electronic devices for them, the way some of them already do. We also live in a world where people connected to toxic governments might have access to things like a poison-laced umbrella. Most people are unlikely to ever find themselves on the wrong end of one, though. For most people, we're talking about chilling effects and slippery slopes. A number of U.S. airports have been installing CT scanners and ramping down their security theater technique of removing all personal electronics in favor of advanced imaging techniques. Will things like this change that? How might they have detected something like this? Those are some of the interesting questions.
posted by limeonaire at 11:28 AM on September 18 [3 favorites]
I am not being humorous in any way when I suggest the average cell phone owner would not change their behavior if they thought there was a non-zero chance of their phone exploding and killing them. We have created an addiction that is basically impossible to break, I promise.
I was just going to say, it was still the earliest days of iPods when I was reading a lot about device infosec and opsec, too, so pre-iPhone. I didn't even have a cellphone yet at that point. In the last 20 years, almost all of us have opted into this tracking. And as early speculation about these attacks noted, most of us in the U.S. now are carrying some kind of lithium battery–powered tracking device with questionable supply-chain accountability almost all the time, even if we (most likely!) don't have a shady pager or walkie-talkie. Someone listed above all the types of personal electronics that they carry on a regular basis. Like how does one even protect against exploits and counterfeits? Make sure you install the latest security updates in case an exploit is found that could make your phone blow up, or your headphones eavesdrop on you? Or maybe only buy less common models so exploits are less likely? Could Kevlar purses proliferate the way blast-resistant trash cans and RFID-blocking wallets have?
One answer would be the typical police-state answer: You don't have to worry if you're not doing anything wrong that would put you on someone's radar. That's obviously a straw man. As explained so well above by johnasdf, organizations like the one targeted this time are complex political and military groups that include many civilians. Really I'm guessing a lot of what has kept this sort of thing from happening to this point has been concerns about knock-on effects and escalation, but also perhaps courtesy—the kind of courtesy that perhaps Israel's government views like the rules of bayonet warfare. In flouting international law and disregarding the collective courtesy that prohibits committing acts of terror, Israel is opening a door to a lot of bad things.
I'm guessing that rich people with entourages will increasingly have others vet and carry their electronic devices for them, the way some of them already do. We also live in a world where people connected to toxic governments might have access to things like a poison-laced umbrella. Most people are unlikely to ever find themselves on the wrong end of one, though. For most people, we're talking about chilling effects and slippery slopes. A number of U.S. airports have been installing CT scanners and ramping down their security theater technique of removing all personal electronics in favor of advanced imaging techniques. Will things like this change that? How might they have detected something like this? Those are some of the interesting questions.
posted by limeonaire at 11:28 AM on September 18 [3 favorites]
→
A reasonable risk of discovery is not "no reason", and it sounds like the explosives were fairly close to being discovered. There is some deniability in exploded pagers, but no deniability at all in your enemy's television channels showing off disassembled devices with little blobs of C-4 hidden in the battery cases. It makes me wonder how long the interval was between someone saying "You know they're going to look in the new radios next" and the walkie-talkies being remote detonated.
posted by scruss at 11:34 AM on September 18
And they did it all because, no reason. "Use it or lose it."
A reasonable risk of discovery is not "no reason", and it sounds like the explosives were fairly close to being discovered. There is some deniability in exploded pagers, but no deniability at all in your enemy's television channels showing off disassembled devices with little blobs of C-4 hidden in the battery cases. It makes me wonder how long the interval was between someone saying "You know they're going to look in the new radios next" and the walkie-talkies being remote detonated.
posted by scruss at 11:34 AM on September 18
"I got this cool pager at the pawn shop for $2!"
Boom
So not a good thing
posted by Windopaene at 11:42 AM on September 18 [4 favorites]
Boom
So not a good thing
posted by Windopaene at 11:42 AM on September 18 [4 favorites]
The "Slaughterbots" short mentioned above brought up a point about some of these issues: once the idea gets out, it is not going back in again. The combination of the current smart device setup, along with the tracking of things, increases the terror options.
For those that haven't watched it, there's a scene where a group of students posting online about a political issue manage to annoy someone, implied to be part of the Establishment, so their profiles get out, programmed into the 'bots, and then assassinated in class. Presumably to terrify people out of protesting.
We've seen it in the US and other nations where people protesting policies get unwanted visitors (it happened in goddamn FLORIDA where people who signed a petition for an abortion protection amendment to the state constitution were visited by the police, claiming to be investigating election fraud, but you probably could make a good case for it to be intimidation as well), and all you need is to find a way to sneak it into things. You can mute people or kill them depending on your feelings. (I know that if my computer died suddenly I couldn't replace it - my iPad died suddenly four months ago and I still haven't been able to afford to replace it.)
This is entirely about sending a message, and that message is "Here's a new way for us to enforce our will; are you willing to risk your life to see what else we might have mined?"
Also, I'm wondering how many gifts from Israel - or a lot of places in the past couple of years - are being taken out of public areas of government buildings (including the White House) and being put into safe rooms, just in case they do go boom...
posted by mephron at 11:45 AM on September 18 [19 favorites]
For those that haven't watched it, there's a scene where a group of students posting online about a political issue manage to annoy someone, implied to be part of the Establishment, so their profiles get out, programmed into the 'bots, and then assassinated in class. Presumably to terrify people out of protesting.
We've seen it in the US and other nations where people protesting policies get unwanted visitors (it happened in goddamn FLORIDA where people who signed a petition for an abortion protection amendment to the state constitution were visited by the police, claiming to be investigating election fraud, but you probably could make a good case for it to be intimidation as well), and all you need is to find a way to sneak it into things. You can mute people or kill them depending on your feelings. (I know that if my computer died suddenly I couldn't replace it - my iPad died suddenly four months ago and I still haven't been able to afford to replace it.)
This is entirely about sending a message, and that message is "Here's a new way for us to enforce our will; are you willing to risk your life to see what else we might have mined?"
Also, I'm wondering how many gifts from Israel - or a lot of places in the past couple of years - are being taken out of public areas of government buildings (including the White House) and being put into safe rooms, just in case they do go boom...
posted by mephron at 11:45 AM on September 18 [19 favorites]
If you can get to the supply chain then who is to say whats inside a vaccine, bottled water or a well?
Pure (likely unhelpful) speculation of course, but there is going to be a fair bit of paranoia over the most mundane of lifes essentials (is the paste in the toothpaste tube entirely for cleaning teeth, why can't you squeeze all of it out?); which I guess is the point, except opening this particular pandoras box can cause an outsized omni-directional impact.
Also, I don't think its been mentioned yet, but explosive sniffer dogs are a thing and checking imported mail/parcels/containers at the border and security checkpoints are pretty standard too (but maybe Lebanon isn't so great with that stuff) - does the fact that the explosives weren't detected mean there is a new class of explosive in circulation (will airport security theatre ramp-up) ?
posted by phigmov at 12:01 PM on September 18 [3 favorites]
Pure (likely unhelpful) speculation of course, but there is going to be a fair bit of paranoia over the most mundane of lifes essentials (is the paste in the toothpaste tube entirely for cleaning teeth, why can't you squeeze all of it out?); which I guess is the point, except opening this particular pandoras box can cause an outsized omni-directional impact.
Also, I don't think its been mentioned yet, but explosive sniffer dogs are a thing and checking imported mail/parcels/containers at the border and security checkpoints are pretty standard too (but maybe Lebanon isn't so great with that stuff) - does the fact that the explosives weren't detected mean there is a new class of explosive in circulation (will airport security theatre ramp-up) ?
posted by phigmov at 12:01 PM on September 18 [3 favorites]
There is some deniability in exploded pagers
Hahaha what
posted by Gadarene at 12:02 PM on September 18 [5 favorites]
Hahaha what
posted by Gadarene at 12:02 PM on September 18 [5 favorites]
no deniability at all in your enemy's television channels showing off disassembled devices with little blobs of C-4 hidden in the battery cases
they absolutely are right now disassembling the various pagers that didn't go off, either because they were turned off, were out of range, or happened to be duds
posted by BungaDunga at 12:06 PM on September 18 [6 favorites]
they absolutely are right now disassembling the various pagers that didn't go off, either because they were turned off, were out of range, or happened to be duds
posted by BungaDunga at 12:06 PM on September 18 [6 favorites]
It's interesting to me how everyone knows Israel carried out these attacks but they aren't saying so directly. But they're talking off the record to news sources, and certainly not denying their role. That's typical for Israel. They've long cultivated a sort of bad-ass image that their assassins and spies are the best in the world and people should fear them. It's not about deniability, Israel isn't denying their role.
In the past people spoke of their assassinations with respect. I did. I'm not anymore. They're killing far too many civilians. Children.
posted by Nelson at 12:09 PM on September 18 [3 favorites]
In the past people spoke of their assassinations with respect. I did. I'm not anymore. They're killing far too many civilians. Children.
posted by Nelson at 12:09 PM on September 18 [3 favorites]
jeffburdges, the impact on the Drake Equation isn't related to the international commerce piece. Sorry if that wasn't clear.
This action by Israel impacts the Drake Equation because they have demonstrated a new weapon of mass destruction, and they unleashed this new weapon of mass destruction for no good reason. Watch the Slaughterbots video. That's the next iteration of what Israel just did. And you can bet your booties that Russia, China, the USA, North Korea, and lots of other technologically sophisticated states will accelerate their research on similar weapons.
You brought up the Overton Window, and I think that's appropriate. This shifts the Overton window for a new kind of killing.
But it also demonstrates the stupidity of the human race, and its willingness to kill itself, the readiness of people with great responsibility to behave with utter irresponsibility. That's really the reason it impacts the Drake Equation.
posted by Winnie the Proust at 12:12 PM on September 18 [6 favorites]
This action by Israel impacts the Drake Equation because they have demonstrated a new weapon of mass destruction, and they unleashed this new weapon of mass destruction for no good reason. Watch the Slaughterbots video. That's the next iteration of what Israel just did. And you can bet your booties that Russia, China, the USA, North Korea, and lots of other technologically sophisticated states will accelerate their research on similar weapons.
You brought up the Overton Window, and I think that's appropriate. This shifts the Overton window for a new kind of killing.
But it also demonstrates the stupidity of the human race, and its willingness to kill itself, the readiness of people with great responsibility to behave with utter irresponsibility. That's really the reason it impacts the Drake Equation.
posted by Winnie the Proust at 12:12 PM on September 18 [6 favorites]
Al Jazeera is reporting that a bomb was found in an ambulance in Beirut a few hours ago. It was removed and detonated safely.
posted by adrienneleigh at 12:19 PM on September 18 [6 favorites]
posted by adrienneleigh at 12:19 PM on September 18 [6 favorites]
This action by Israel impacts the Drake Equation because they have demonstrated a new weapon of mass destruction,
wat
posted by lalochezia at 12:19 PM on September 18 [1 favorite]
wat
posted by lalochezia at 12:19 PM on September 18 [1 favorite]
So far 14 people are dead and more than 450 wounded in today's wave of explosions.
posted by adrienneleigh at 12:21 PM on September 18 [5 favorites]
posted by adrienneleigh at 12:21 PM on September 18 [5 favorites]
if israel can plant explosives in consumer electronics and justify it by saying they were only targeting "terrorists" then it would be a good idea to remember that israel said that student protestors in america are terrorists
Yeah hi the ADL sent a letter to the president of my university saying everyone in my organization was a Hamas supporter so I suppose it’s only my poverty preventing me from replacing my phone that makes me safe from future Mossad attacks now? Is this the world we are okay living in?
posted by corb at 12:23 PM on September 18 [41 favorites]
Yeah hi the ADL sent a letter to the president of my university saying everyone in my organization was a Hamas supporter so I suppose it’s only my poverty preventing me from replacing my phone that makes me safe from future Mossad attacks now? Is this the world we are okay living in?
posted by corb at 12:23 PM on September 18 [41 favorites]
This action by Israel impacts the Drake Equation because
It's easy to feel pessimistic nowadays, yes (but maybe we're more prone to self-destruction than the average intergalactic species?).
posted by mazola at 12:26 PM on September 18
It's easy to feel pessimistic nowadays, yes (but maybe we're more prone to self-destruction than the average intergalactic species?).
posted by mazola at 12:26 PM on September 18
... but there is going to be a fair bit of paranoia over the most mundane of lifes essentials (is the paste in the toothpaste tube entirely for cleaning teeth, why can't you squeeze all of it out?)
Your point is taken, but may I remind you about Tylenol? This has been a problem for at least 40 years. That tampering led to reforms in packaging and federal anti-tampering laws.
posted by achrise at 12:32 PM on September 18 [1 favorite]
Your point is taken, but may I remind you about Tylenol? This has been a problem for at least 40 years. That tampering led to reforms in packaging and federal anti-tampering laws.
posted by achrise at 12:32 PM on September 18 [1 favorite]
You know, I'm not actually pessimistic. All killing is irresponsible. But this is an epic level of irresponsibility that goes beyond the immediate deaths and injuries that it caused.
posted by Winnie the Proust at 12:35 PM on September 18 [6 favorites]
posted by Winnie the Proust at 12:35 PM on September 18 [6 favorites]
From Twitter:
the thing I can’t get out of my head about Israel’s terror attack is how incredibly lucky that nobody with one of those pagers was on a commercial flight
.
posted by Gadarene at 12:39 PM on September 18 [18 favorites]
the thing I can’t get out of my head about Israel’s terror attack is how incredibly lucky that nobody with one of those pagers was on a commercial flight
.
posted by Gadarene at 12:39 PM on September 18 [18 favorites]
may I remind you about Tylenol? This has been a problem for at least 40 years
That wasn't tampered with at the manufacturing level. This recent Israeli weaponisation (literally) of communications technology was, which is a rather major difference compared to someone adding poison to random bottles of Tylenol in an era before tamper resistant seals and blister packs.
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 1:21 PM on September 18 [4 favorites]
That wasn't tampered with at the manufacturing level. This recent Israeli weaponisation (literally) of communications technology was, which is a rather major difference compared to someone adding poison to random bottles of Tylenol in an era before tamper resistant seals and blister packs.
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 1:21 PM on September 18 [4 favorites]
That wasn't tampered with at the manufacturing level. This recent Israeli weaponisation (literally) of communications technology wasWait, it was? From the reporting I’ve seen, we only know that the pagers were made in Taiwan, imported into Lebanon, and tampered with sometime before they were delivered to the final recipients. It seems at least as likely that the the tampering happened after manufacture (for example, at a shipping facility within or en route to Lebanon).
posted by mbrubeck at 1:27 PM on September 18
From the reporting I’ve seen, we only know that the pagers were made in Taiwan, imported into Lebanon, and tampered with sometime before they were delivered to the final recipients.
They were manufactured under license by an outfit in Hungary that seems to be an empty office, per the BBC reporting.
posted by Dysk at 1:31 PM on September 18 [12 favorites]
They were manufactured under license by an outfit in Hungary that seems to be an empty office, per the BBC reporting.
posted by Dysk at 1:31 PM on September 18 [12 favorites]
Exploding electronic devices kill 14, wound 450 in second day of explosions in Lebanon
Wounded #s up from only hours ago this morning.
posted by human ecologist at 1:54 PM on September 18
Wounded #s up from only hours ago this morning.
posted by human ecologist at 1:54 PM on September 18
This seems to me to be a step on the way to us all living in caves and throwing rocks at one another.
If retaliators start seeding electrical devices with bombs, we'll be heading back to the stone age.
All consumer products are at risk.
As for the Tylenol anti-tampering techniques, they will do little good if you have a sophisticated entity behind the sabotage, rather than a lone crazy.
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 1:56 PM on September 18 [1 favorite]
If retaliators start seeding electrical devices with bombs, we'll be heading back to the stone age.
All consumer products are at risk.
As for the Tylenol anti-tampering techniques, they will do little good if you have a sophisticated entity behind the sabotage, rather than a lone crazy.
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 1:56 PM on September 18 [1 favorite]
I think I mentioned in another thread that the NSA tampered with Cisco devices - Photos of an NSA “upgrade” factory show Cisco router getting implant. These boxes typically have seals on the outside and on the wrapping inside which would need to be restored/replaced so as not to arouse suspicion.
I don't think a terrorist, or nation state (or nation state terrorist) will be bothered with laws/regulations.
posted by phigmov at 2:15 PM on September 18 [3 favorites]
I don't think a terrorist, or nation state (or nation state terrorist) will be bothered with laws/regulations.
posted by phigmov at 2:15 PM on September 18 [3 favorites]
"2) Any communications facilities which can be used by the authorities to transmit instructions or morale material should be the objects of simple sabotage. These include telephone, telegraph and power systems, radio, newspapers, placards, and public notices."
-OSS sabotage manual, 1944.
posted by clavdivs at 2:38 PM on September 18 [3 favorites]
-OSS sabotage manual, 1944.
posted by clavdivs at 2:38 PM on September 18 [3 favorites]
I don't think anyone is concerned with the pagers/walkie talkies being disabled.
posted by mazola at 2:50 PM on September 18 [3 favorites]
posted by mazola at 2:50 PM on September 18 [3 favorites]
"2) Any communications facilities which can be used by the authorities to transmit instructions or morale material should be the objects of simple sabotage. These include telephone, telegraph and power systems, radio, newspapers, placards, and public notices."
Yes, nobody in here is objecting to the sabotage of communications devices, we're objecting to the deliberately-caused injuries and deaths. If the objective had been simple sabotage, there were a whole lot of ways to accomplish that which did not involve deliberately harming civilians.
posted by adrienneleigh at 2:51 PM on September 18 [13 favorites]
Yes, nobody in here is objecting to the sabotage of communications devices, we're objecting to the deliberately-caused injuries and deaths. If the objective had been simple sabotage, there were a whole lot of ways to accomplish that which did not involve deliberately harming civilians.
posted by adrienneleigh at 2:51 PM on September 18 [13 favorites]
there is going to be a fair bit of paranoia over the most mundane of lifes essentials
All possible individual security concerns basically go out the window if a state actor goes after you personally. This just proves they can also do it in aggregate.
posted by aspersioncast at 2:59 PM on September 18 [2 favorites]
All possible individual security concerns basically go out the window if a state actor goes after you personally. This just proves they can also do it in aggregate.
posted by aspersioncast at 2:59 PM on September 18 [2 favorites]
I think there is a lot of over-reaction in this thread. Mines and booby traps are not new, nor are remote detonation bombs. we already live with ubiquitous multi-agent surveilance, and most consumer products have spyware/malware. Also drone assasinations are routine in several regions etc. As for the rest of the world discovering this idea, do we really think our own and other governments were naive and just now had the idea?
And collateral damage? Like civilian airliners? that happens each decade and the fanfare dies down.
We already live in the dystopia, only you get to pick the brand of bombcollar
posted by No Climate - No Food, No Food - No Future. at 3:25 PM on September 18 [7 favorites]
And collateral damage? Like civilian airliners? that happens each decade and the fanfare dies down.
We already live in the dystopia, only you get to pick the brand of bombcollar
posted by No Climate - No Food, No Food - No Future. at 3:25 PM on September 18 [7 favorites]
Like, some people in here really seem to be deliberately overlooking the part where paramedics and first responders were carrying these devices for their entirely non-military jobs, and some of them are injured and dead. They took one of them out of a fucking ambulance.
Medical personnel are not valid targets, according to international law. Period. Not even if they're members of a serving military! Not even if they're associated with a "terrorist" political party that Israel doesn't like!
posted by adrienneleigh at 3:54 PM on September 18 [32 favorites]
Medical personnel are not valid targets, according to international law. Period. Not even if they're members of a serving military! Not even if they're associated with a "terrorist" political party that Israel doesn't like!
posted by adrienneleigh at 3:54 PM on September 18 [32 favorites]
I think there is a lot of over-reaction in this thread.
disagree
we all map our journey differently, I'm not sure I see the value in being told This is Not So Bad
edit to add: your final sentence, I just don't subscribe to that. Is that a zinger of sorts, what is that
posted by ginger.beef at 4:02 PM on September 18 [4 favorites]
disagree
we all map our journey differently, I'm not sure I see the value in being told This is Not So Bad
edit to add: your final sentence, I just don't subscribe to that. Is that a zinger of sorts, what is that
posted by ginger.beef at 4:02 PM on September 18 [4 favorites]
(Also, "set off bombs, wait for first responders to show up and people to cluster together for safety, then set off more bombs" is literally a plot point in one of the Hunger Games books, and everyone correctly identified it as a horrific war crime there.)
posted by adrienneleigh at 4:02 PM on September 18 [14 favorites]
posted by adrienneleigh at 4:02 PM on September 18 [14 favorites]
We already live in the dystopia, only you get to pick the brand of bombcollar
Sure, we're in dystopian times, and as we've noted, the capability to do all of this is undoubtedly not new. What seems relatively new is the use of the global supply chain to enact it; the audacity to do so on such a large, indiscriminate scale; and the way they're executing so many civilians (with this operation, and with everything they've done in Gaza) who they broadly label as terrorists—or who simply stand in the way of expanding territory. Previously things like this seemed to be much more targeted and isolated incidents, precision operations, but with this and other recent actions, it feels like the people in charge in Israel have become emboldened to commit horrific war crimes. That's the relevant change in atmosphere and approach, and we don't actually have to accept it. I don't want to become numb and jaded to attacks on civilians. The nihilist edgelord take is exactly how war crimes are normalized, and how for years people have brushed off violence in the Middle East: "Yadda yadda yadda, it's always been this way, and you couldn't possibly understand." Well, I don't accept it.
posted by limeonaire at 4:07 PM on September 18 [23 favorites]
Sure, we're in dystopian times, and as we've noted, the capability to do all of this is undoubtedly not new. What seems relatively new is the use of the global supply chain to enact it; the audacity to do so on such a large, indiscriminate scale; and the way they're executing so many civilians (with this operation, and with everything they've done in Gaza) who they broadly label as terrorists—or who simply stand in the way of expanding territory. Previously things like this seemed to be much more targeted and isolated incidents, precision operations, but with this and other recent actions, it feels like the people in charge in Israel have become emboldened to commit horrific war crimes. That's the relevant change in atmosphere and approach, and we don't actually have to accept it. I don't want to become numb and jaded to attacks on civilians. The nihilist edgelord take is exactly how war crimes are normalized, and how for years people have brushed off violence in the Middle East: "Yadda yadda yadda, it's always been this way, and you couldn't possibly understand." Well, I don't accept it.
posted by limeonaire at 4:07 PM on September 18 [23 favorites]
If anything, I'm surprised by how restrained the reaction has been. I guess it remains to be seen what will happen if Israel continues blowing up people. Will we get more upset, or will it become just background noise? Either way, the window seems to be closing on the US government making any sort of meaningful statement about it. I wish I could say I was surprised, but Biden gonna Biden.
posted by kittens for breakfast at 4:09 PM on September 18 [7 favorites]
posted by kittens for breakfast at 4:09 PM on September 18 [7 favorites]
You know, you're right, you don't need me saying "this is not the end of the world", it was rash of me and minimizing of peoples legit remarks.
I should leave the snark for reddit.
posted by No Climate - No Food, No Food - No Future. at 4:13 PM on September 18 [6 favorites]
I should leave the snark for reddit.
posted by No Climate - No Food, No Food - No Future. at 4:13 PM on September 18 [6 favorites]
Does literally nobody remember Yahya Ayyash? The technique isn't new, not even slightly. The scale, and the total disregard for innocents bystanders, is the new bit.
posted by aramaic at 4:17 PM on September 18 [1 favorite]
posted by aramaic at 4:17 PM on September 18 [1 favorite]
We need "pessimism of the intellect and optimism of the will", as Gramsci said.
posted by adrienneleigh at 4:19 PM on September 18 [10 favorites]
posted by adrienneleigh at 4:19 PM on September 18 [10 favorites]
Some are saying that 'Metafilter doesn't do Israel threads well', which I would disagree with. I think Metafilter has got a lot better at discussions on relating to the modern state of Israel in the past 25 years, as mediareport has emphasised here, the quality of information is more important than how strongly someone holds an opinion. Some people still feel it is appropriate to bring energy into the room that may work in other settings, or with other groups, and it does serve to antagonise, but it is generally not tolerated by the mods or the other users because humanity is a core part of the Metafilter ethos.
What they bring in is quite DARVO in a lot of ways, and a classic rhetorical ploy which is in stark contrast to most of the rest of the dialogue. Painting a state that has just committed a terrorist atrocity as the perpetual victim is desperate, and requires wilful avoidance of the available evidence. The modern state of Israel is an incredibly paranoid and aggressive state, and it's existence is reliant on it's position as a de facto arm of the US military. Even with the US giving the Israeli military billions of dollars of weapons the state of Israel is in dire financial straits, as noted above. Media analysis from the 12 months before October 2023 shows regular and persistent calls for war with neighbours coming from government ministers. Coupled with the constant victim complex, this is classic fascist rhetoric. Things are not looking good for the modern state of Israel.
Belazel Smotrich current Finance Minister, and Adjunct to the Defence Department, mentioned upthread, wrote a guide to committing genocide against the Palestinians which was published in 2017 entitled Israel's Decisive Plan (available online). The recent trajectory of the Israeli government follows the path of the 'Smotrich doctrine' to make life so miserable for any surviving Palestinians that they will choose to leave, and to kill as many as possible. The few other colonialist states that are continuing to support and abet the accelerated genocide being committed, which was telegraphed by the far right Israeli government prior to October 2023 as well as in Smotrich's genocide guide, are going to be found legally culpable. European countries that enjoyed appearing as moral forces for good following WW2 have destroyed any remaining credibility by not withdrawing support for the Israeli government, and imposing violent subjugation on protesters against the genocide. The International Criminal Court will have to act, or become as decrepit as the reputation of Europe and the US. Calling everyone who isn't in the in-group a terrorist is not going to cut it any more. Israel is a pariah state which is clearly out of control and committing the most documented genocide ever.
In addition to all of that, this latest war crime could bring a new era of violence. Not to trivialise it, but the annoyance to the global population if there are restrictions on battery powered devises might be enough to trigger worldwide support for BDS.
All because the colonialist powers have been unable to see past their desire to 'destabilise' all other regions of the globe, and have created the environment where the monster Netanyahu can cause mayhem while he tries to maintain his death grip on power.
And Biden could end it in a phone call if he could muster the moral backbone that Ronald Reagan showed. Ronald Reagan.
posted by asok at 5:19 PM on September 18 [26 favorites]
What they bring in is quite DARVO in a lot of ways, and a classic rhetorical ploy which is in stark contrast to most of the rest of the dialogue. Painting a state that has just committed a terrorist atrocity as the perpetual victim is desperate, and requires wilful avoidance of the available evidence. The modern state of Israel is an incredibly paranoid and aggressive state, and it's existence is reliant on it's position as a de facto arm of the US military. Even with the US giving the Israeli military billions of dollars of weapons the state of Israel is in dire financial straits, as noted above. Media analysis from the 12 months before October 2023 shows regular and persistent calls for war with neighbours coming from government ministers. Coupled with the constant victim complex, this is classic fascist rhetoric. Things are not looking good for the modern state of Israel.
Belazel Smotrich current Finance Minister, and Adjunct to the Defence Department, mentioned upthread, wrote a guide to committing genocide against the Palestinians which was published in 2017 entitled Israel's Decisive Plan (available online). The recent trajectory of the Israeli government follows the path of the 'Smotrich doctrine' to make life so miserable for any surviving Palestinians that they will choose to leave, and to kill as many as possible. The few other colonialist states that are continuing to support and abet the accelerated genocide being committed, which was telegraphed by the far right Israeli government prior to October 2023 as well as in Smotrich's genocide guide, are going to be found legally culpable. European countries that enjoyed appearing as moral forces for good following WW2 have destroyed any remaining credibility by not withdrawing support for the Israeli government, and imposing violent subjugation on protesters against the genocide. The International Criminal Court will have to act, or become as decrepit as the reputation of Europe and the US. Calling everyone who isn't in the in-group a terrorist is not going to cut it any more. Israel is a pariah state which is clearly out of control and committing the most documented genocide ever.
In addition to all of that, this latest war crime could bring a new era of violence. Not to trivialise it, but the annoyance to the global population if there are restrictions on battery powered devises might be enough to trigger worldwide support for BDS.
All because the colonialist powers have been unable to see past their desire to 'destabilise' all other regions of the globe, and have created the environment where the monster Netanyahu can cause mayhem while he tries to maintain his death grip on power.
And Biden could end it in a phone call if he could muster the moral backbone that Ronald Reagan showed. Ronald Reagan.
posted by asok at 5:19 PM on September 18 [26 favorites]
You really think that power in the United States is so concentrated in the presidency that Biden could unilaterally make a change like that? You don't think there are other centers of power in Congress, in the financial community, in other government institutions that would be able to make this take longer than a single phone call?
And you really think that at this point Bibi gives a fuck what Biden says?
I'm not defending Biden. But even with a full commitment from the president, it would take a hella effort to turn this policy ship in the US, let alone have a significant impact on Israeli policy.
posted by Winnie the Proust at 6:11 PM on September 18 [1 favorite]
And you really think that at this point Bibi gives a fuck what Biden says?
I'm not defending Biden. But even with a full commitment from the president, it would take a hella effort to turn this policy ship in the US, let alone have a significant impact on Israeli policy.
posted by Winnie the Proust at 6:11 PM on September 18 [1 favorite]
He's literally the president of the United States. I know he seems like the addled survivor of a twenty-car pile up, but he's actually the president of the United States, and I have heard it rumored that that role is slightly authoritative, even a little bit influential. Some say he has a limited amount of sway over policy but I don't know.
posted by kittens for breakfast at 6:22 PM on September 18 [8 favorites]
posted by kittens for breakfast at 6:22 PM on September 18 [8 favorites]
> This seems to me to be a step on the way to us all living in caves and throwing rocks at one another.
The Crude System of Coded Messages Keeping Hamas's Leader Alive (gene hackman in the conversation)
posted by kliuless at 6:24 PM on September 18 [1 favorite]
The Crude System of Coded Messages Keeping Hamas's Leader Alive (gene hackman in the conversation)
posted by kliuless at 6:24 PM on September 18 [1 favorite]
Was it not observed that Israeli society has taken a conservative turn over the last decade? One wonders what the regular people in the country actually think.
posted by polymodus at 6:28 PM on September 18 [1 favorite]
posted by polymodus at 6:28 PM on September 18 [1 favorite]
There are millions of right-wing Christian Americans who are jerking off to their copies of Revelations right now. The idea that Bibi Netanyahu is forcing a needlessly destructive and unnecessary war in Israel is filling them with rapturous (see what I did there?) glee. Lawless provocations aren’t a bug, they’re a feature. The moment Joe Biden or Kamala Harris give anything more than the most anodyne tutting, these Armageddon cultists will hammer them, politically speaking. It sucks, but electoral politics are absolutely driving their statements.
Kamala Harris said, “Israel has a right to defend itself but how it does so matters.” I know it was prior to these attacks but that sentiment is as strong as you’re going to get right now.
posted by Big Al 8000 at 6:38 PM on September 18 [1 favorite]
Kamala Harris said, “Israel has a right to defend itself but how it does so matters.” I know it was prior to these attacks but that sentiment is as strong as you’re going to get right now.
posted by Big Al 8000 at 6:38 PM on September 18 [1 favorite]
NPR had a lot of coverage today but I was particularly moved by In Lebanon, more electronic devices blew up during funerals from Tuesday's attacks. Because yes, during a funeral for victims of Israel's assassinations several walkie talkie bombs blew up nearby. If that's not terrorism I don't know what is.
Two of the dead in the funeral were children who were blown up by Israel. When the pager went off and they went to bring it to their father and it blew up in their hands.
posted by Nelson at 6:42 PM on September 18 [9 favorites]
Two of the dead in the funeral were children who were blown up by Israel. When the pager went off and they went to bring it to their father and it blew up in their hands.
posted by Nelson at 6:42 PM on September 18 [9 favorites]
This isn't meant to be a thread about the election, but I will say at risk of derailing it that opinions are divided starkly about which could lose the election for Harris: weighing in, or not weighing in. Personally, I think the pragmatic approach would be for Biden to fall on this grenade, as it were; that is also the logical approach, because Biden is president and Harris is not.
posted by kittens for breakfast at 6:45 PM on September 18 [7 favorites]
posted by kittens for breakfast at 6:45 PM on September 18 [7 favorites]
This is what I've been getting at, when I've said that it feels like Biden wants Harris to lose. I'm not playing 5-D chess, I'm just pointing out the talking point that's ready to be taken if you need to get her over the finish line because it wasn't hysterical to anticipate further Israeli escalation and the necks of Americans being strung up just to go along with it. I'm not the only mefite to even testify, not just report, that in areas where it mattered, USA is losing the diplomatic clout to even talk about human rights, which leaves the door open to other state actors, as other countries seek to rebalance their diplomatic profile. (Even in states that don't really allow public demonstrations, this is such an easy win so I keep getting told of regular weekly protests at such-and-such US embassy)
(I'm even ok if you needed to vote for the guy back when he was actually in the running, but the amount of pushback that a person like me would even dare to state that at best he could be a 'complicated' president (though really I'm very ok with calling him a racist when it comes to Middle East politics in particular), as though every thread is suddenly a vibes thread.)
posted by cendawanita at 6:59 PM on September 18 [6 favorites]
(I'm even ok if you needed to vote for the guy back when he was actually in the running, but the amount of pushback that a person like me would even dare to state that at best he could be a 'complicated' president (though really I'm very ok with calling him a racist when it comes to Middle East politics in particular), as though every thread is suddenly a vibes thread.)
posted by cendawanita at 6:59 PM on September 18 [6 favorites]
This is some totally unhinged dystopian cyberpunk terrorism shit and it's not ok.
I have no idea how anyone can even want to or think of defending this, and it is absolutely appalling and troubling to me to see it reduced to any kind of whataboutism or defense of this.
These were one-way pagers, they weren't meant to be transmitting anything. Which is why smuggling a homing signal into them would likely be tricky, though obviously useful. Maybe they did that too, who knows.
Honestly, these days this wouldn't be that difficult to do with BLE (bluetooth low energy) and/or stealth wifi. I mean that's basically just an Airtag, but smaller.
And if you were REALLY clever and spooky you could counterfeit whole ASICs or SoC (system on a chip) packages that functioned and looked exactly like the real thing with a little hidden extra functionality, and maybe even a hidden antennae etched into the PCB as a functioning part of the circuit design - all without being obvious to anyone who isn't an expert with a nice lab full of tools.
And in today's RF environment it would be relatively difficult to detect if it only turned on once a day or once a week or so. You would probably have to isolate the pager or other device in isolated Faraday cage and wait AND be listening and logging on the right bands.
I mean you could detect it without the RF isolation, but when you're talking about super low power and encrypted digital RF it can be really difficult to determine if it's coming from a given device because almost every populated area on the planet is now well saturated with random WiFi and BT signals.
And that's just, y'know, me being an armchair nerd with a rudimentary grasp of some things.
I'm sure if Mossad or whomever wanted to make a stealth RF device that could phone home would just laugh at this and say something like "Oh, that''s a fun guess, but, no... it's worse. Much worse."
posted by loquacious at 7:02 PM on September 18 [6 favorites]
I have no idea how anyone can even want to or think of defending this, and it is absolutely appalling and troubling to me to see it reduced to any kind of whataboutism or defense of this.
These were one-way pagers, they weren't meant to be transmitting anything. Which is why smuggling a homing signal into them would likely be tricky, though obviously useful. Maybe they did that too, who knows.
Honestly, these days this wouldn't be that difficult to do with BLE (bluetooth low energy) and/or stealth wifi. I mean that's basically just an Airtag, but smaller.
And if you were REALLY clever and spooky you could counterfeit whole ASICs or SoC (system on a chip) packages that functioned and looked exactly like the real thing with a little hidden extra functionality, and maybe even a hidden antennae etched into the PCB as a functioning part of the circuit design - all without being obvious to anyone who isn't an expert with a nice lab full of tools.
And in today's RF environment it would be relatively difficult to detect if it only turned on once a day or once a week or so. You would probably have to isolate the pager or other device in isolated Faraday cage and wait AND be listening and logging on the right bands.
I mean you could detect it without the RF isolation, but when you're talking about super low power and encrypted digital RF it can be really difficult to determine if it's coming from a given device because almost every populated area on the planet is now well saturated with random WiFi and BT signals.
And that's just, y'know, me being an armchair nerd with a rudimentary grasp of some things.
I'm sure if Mossad or whomever wanted to make a stealth RF device that could phone home would just laugh at this and say something like "Oh, that''s a fun guess, but, no... it's worse. Much worse."
posted by loquacious at 7:02 PM on September 18 [6 favorites]
Anyone who thinks the President of the United States controls policy unilaterally should read up on what happened when Bill Clinton tried lift the ban on gay people serving in the military. It was very quickly made perfectly clear to him that while he was the Commander in Chief, there were greater powers that were not ready to let that happen. And that was a matter purely internal to our country. And Clinton had pledged to do while he was running for office. Nope. Nope. Nope.
I'm not saying the President of the United States has no power. And I'm not saying Biden should keep sitting on his hands. Fuck no. But it's not just "Biden picks up the phone".
posted by Winnie the Proust at 7:06 PM on September 18 [6 favorites]
I'm not saying the President of the United States has no power. And I'm not saying Biden should keep sitting on his hands. Fuck no. But it's not just "Biden picks up the phone".
posted by Winnie the Proust at 7:06 PM on September 18 [6 favorites]
Why the reduction to only that though? Arms embargo is on the table. Slowing down support under the guise of review is on the table (or to use Germany as an example, just completely ghost them even as one side of the government face talks up their support). Actually allowing the State Dept to actually do their work is on the table.
posted by cendawanita at 7:14 PM on September 18 [9 favorites]
posted by cendawanita at 7:14 PM on September 18 [9 favorites]
If I were Netanyahu and got that phone call, I'd be saying fine, we're nuking Tehran. And then you would be Biden trying to decide just how desperate Netanyahu is.
posted by i_am_joe's_spleen at 7:15 PM on September 18
posted by i_am_joe's_spleen at 7:15 PM on September 18
I think that the problem is that Biden is NOT picking up the phone. Biden is not, to all appearances, doing anything. For all I know, Biden has spent the last 48 hours binge watching Sanford and Son. Does Biden even know this has been happening?
posted by kittens for breakfast at 7:17 PM on September 18 [6 favorites]
posted by kittens for breakfast at 7:17 PM on September 18 [6 favorites]
I guess what I'm trying to say is, there's literally dozens of technocratic levers his circle doesn't need to block politically that's on the table. You know how much leverage the US just lost over Israel? For the first time in 42 years, via the General Assembly (therefore the US can't veto it) the UN passed a resolution that basically sanctions Israel until it leaves the occupied territories. That's after the US team was moving across the various backdoors to convince reps to not vote for it. At best, the most sympathetic/most to lose in their domestic calculations eg Ukraine opted for abstention.
posted by cendawanita at 7:18 PM on September 18 [10 favorites]
posted by cendawanita at 7:18 PM on September 18 [10 favorites]
Because it's Israel, and an election is coming up.
And there are a lot of Jewish-Americans, who have a lot of different opinions about Israel. Biden won't do much, (he just seems to be surfing out of the White House on a gnarly wave), Harris is having to deal with this dichotomy, while all of her youth support is clearly on the Palestinians side...
Israel has been a no-win situation in the US for 40 years. I guess it kept us with a military ally right next to all that oil, but...
This is horrible fucked up shit
posted by Windopaene at 7:20 PM on September 18 [4 favorites]
And there are a lot of Jewish-Americans, who have a lot of different opinions about Israel. Biden won't do much, (he just seems to be surfing out of the White House on a gnarly wave), Harris is having to deal with this dichotomy, while all of her youth support is clearly on the Palestinians side...
Israel has been a no-win situation in the US for 40 years. I guess it kept us with a military ally right next to all that oil, but...
This is horrible fucked up shit
posted by Windopaene at 7:20 PM on September 18 [4 favorites]
Reading this thread, I’m reminded of this conversation with Palestinian activist Iyad el-Baghdadi.
In my reading, there is a strong sub current in this thread that Israel as a state is fundamentally illegitimate and should not exist. And, while I agree that many of Israel’s actions of claimed self-defense are indefensible, I don’t think they therefore nullify Israel’s right to exist.
Israel isn’t composed mostly of Holocaust survivors or New Jersey transplants as intimated above. Rather, over 60% of modern Israelis are descended from such wealthy liberal democracies as *checks notes* Libya, Egypt, Syria, Iraq and Iran. If Israel ceases to exist, where do those people go?
None of this should be read as me excusing the continued immiseration of the Palestinian people. Rather, I think the blame and the anger over their continued suffering should be directed beyond the usual suspects of Israel, the US, and the European West. For example, too many people on this site minimize the direct responsibility that Hamas has for the current destruction in Gaza.
Paulo Freire had thoughts on the dynamic of overcoming oppression only to become the oppressor. It’s a helluva cycle and it can only be broken when we recognize the full humanity of the people we hate — I wish I knew how to get more people to understand this and act accordingly.
posted by Big Al 8000 at 7:33 PM on September 18 [6 favorites]
In my reading, there is a strong sub current in this thread that Israel as a state is fundamentally illegitimate and should not exist. And, while I agree that many of Israel’s actions of claimed self-defense are indefensible, I don’t think they therefore nullify Israel’s right to exist.
Israel isn’t composed mostly of Holocaust survivors or New Jersey transplants as intimated above. Rather, over 60% of modern Israelis are descended from such wealthy liberal democracies as *checks notes* Libya, Egypt, Syria, Iraq and Iran. If Israel ceases to exist, where do those people go?
None of this should be read as me excusing the continued immiseration of the Palestinian people. Rather, I think the blame and the anger over their continued suffering should be directed beyond the usual suspects of Israel, the US, and the European West. For example, too many people on this site minimize the direct responsibility that Hamas has for the current destruction in Gaza.
Paulo Freire had thoughts on the dynamic of overcoming oppression only to become the oppressor. It’s a helluva cycle and it can only be broken when we recognize the full humanity of the people we hate — I wish I knew how to get more people to understand this and act accordingly.
posted by Big Al 8000 at 7:33 PM on September 18 [6 favorites]
The Palestine thread is still open, btw - if you like, I started a fresh one specifically on the unwinding effects of the ICJ decision of the illegal occupation.
posted by cendawanita at 7:36 PM on September 18 [7 favorites]
posted by cendawanita at 7:36 PM on September 18 [7 favorites]
Does literally nobody remember Yahya Ayyash? The technique isn't new, not even slightly. The scale, and the total disregard for innocents bystanders, is the new bit.
Yahya Ayyash was also a criminal act, but fuck me does it demonstrate how much of a "to whom it may concern" shotgun approach this was by comparison.
All the people acting like this was really well targeted, actually, what is the alternative anyway, smartbombing whole blocks where the baddies are? This was almost entirely untargeted. Targeted means you have a list of names, and nobody who isn't on it gets hurt. Israel clearly have that capability. Instead they just shipped hundreds of explosive comms devices, and whoever blew up blew up.
It's the difference between a sniper killing a guy as he walks through a busy town square, and calling in an air strike to level that part of town. But hey, that's really well targeted actually, compared to blowing up the entire town. Israel is so good and moral.
posted by Dysk at 7:37 PM on September 18 [4 favorites]
Yahya Ayyash was also a criminal act, but fuck me does it demonstrate how much of a "to whom it may concern" shotgun approach this was by comparison.
All the people acting like this was really well targeted, actually, what is the alternative anyway, smartbombing whole blocks where the baddies are? This was almost entirely untargeted. Targeted means you have a list of names, and nobody who isn't on it gets hurt. Israel clearly have that capability. Instead they just shipped hundreds of explosive comms devices, and whoever blew up blew up.
It's the difference between a sniper killing a guy as he walks through a busy town square, and calling in an air strike to level that part of town. But hey, that's really well targeted actually, compared to blowing up the entire town. Israel is so good and moral.
posted by Dysk at 7:37 PM on September 18 [4 favorites]
Israel isn’t composed mostly of Holocaust survivors or New Jersey transplants as intimated above
No-one has suggested it is; "West Bank" in my comment should have been a clue (there are over sixty thousand Americans in Israeli settlements established within the last few decades in blatant contravention of international law).
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 7:37 PM on September 18 [14 favorites]
No-one has suggested it is; "West Bank" in my comment should have been a clue (there are over sixty thousand Americans in Israeli settlements established within the last few decades in blatant contravention of international law).
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 7:37 PM on September 18 [14 favorites]
For example, too many people on this site minimize the direct responsibility that Hamas has for the current destruction in Gaza.
In the same way the Ukraine government is responsible for the continued shelling of Kyiv and other cities far from the front (and fighting at the front foot that matter). If they just peacefully ceded the territory, nobody would need to die!
posted by Dysk at 7:48 PM on September 18 [13 favorites]
In the same way the Ukraine government is responsible for the continued shelling of Kyiv and other cities far from the front (and fighting at the front foot that matter). If they just peacefully ceded the territory, nobody would need to die!
posted by Dysk at 7:48 PM on September 18 [13 favorites]
I guess it kept us with a military ally right next to all that oil, but...
An ally that sat out both Gulf Wars and Afghanistan while still requiring defending. Not an asset at all in that regard and it likely never will be.
posted by srboisvert at 8:00 PM on September 18 [8 favorites]
An ally that sat out both Gulf Wars and Afghanistan while still requiring defending. Not an asset at all in that regard and it likely never will be.
posted by srboisvert at 8:00 PM on September 18 [8 favorites]
An ally that sat out both Gulf Wars
An "ally" that helped lie the USA into the second Gulf War by providing faulty intelligence about nonexistent Iraqi WMDs, also, while cheerleading for an invasion from the sidelines.
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 8:10 PM on September 18 [18 favorites]
An "ally" that helped lie the USA into the second Gulf War by providing faulty intelligence about nonexistent Iraqi WMDs, also, while cheerleading for an invasion from the sidelines.
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 8:10 PM on September 18 [18 favorites]
I literally just want Israel not to indiscriminately blow people up. I don't have a strong opinion about whether Israel is a legitimate state. I live in America. Are we a legitimate state? I'm not even going there. Total dorm room full of THC smoke at 2 AM conversation. Whereas the not Unabombering people, regardless of how badass it makes anybody feel, I think that's a simple subject with a pretty obvious right and wrong side.
posted by kittens for breakfast at 8:14 PM on September 18 [14 favorites]
posted by kittens for breakfast at 8:14 PM on September 18 [14 favorites]
Was it not observed that Israeli society has taken a conservative turn over the last decade? One wonders what the regular people in the country actually think.
Netanyahu stoked the rhetorical fires that resulted in the murder of Yitzhak Rabin, derailing the peace process 30 years ago so I wouldn't exactly say the conservative turn is new or that even involves new players. It's just much bolder, authoritarian, unhinged and conserving nothing at all now like almost everywhere in the world.
posted by srboisvert at 8:17 PM on September 18 [8 favorites]
Netanyahu stoked the rhetorical fires that resulted in the murder of Yitzhak Rabin, derailing the peace process 30 years ago so I wouldn't exactly say the conservative turn is new or that even involves new players. It's just much bolder, authoritarian, unhinged and conserving nothing at all now like almost everywhere in the world.
posted by srboisvert at 8:17 PM on September 18 [8 favorites]
On the settler question I know from college a guy from a pretty standard middle class mainstream Jewish upbringing in Southern California who fell in with the “wrong crowd” and is now a West Bank settler.
I have two different co-workers with family in Lebanon. Thankfully ok from what I have heard. But one of the family members is a midwife and I can totally imagine her getting called into a house where one of these pagers was present. And as noted above although Hezbollah plays a governmental role in some parts of the country, the link to say everyone in militia members is even worse than saying all Gazans are Hamas.
I also had a very uncomfortable interaction with a evangelical Christian who told me that Gods will is that all Muslim men, woman and children should be slaughtered, after I told him that I didn’t think God liked all the violence
posted by CostcoCultist at 8:25 PM on September 18 [4 favorites]
I have two different co-workers with family in Lebanon. Thankfully ok from what I have heard. But one of the family members is a midwife and I can totally imagine her getting called into a house where one of these pagers was present. And as noted above although Hezbollah plays a governmental role in some parts of the country, the link to say everyone in militia members is even worse than saying all Gazans are Hamas.
I also had a very uncomfortable interaction with a evangelical Christian who told me that Gods will is that all Muslim men, woman and children should be slaughtered, after I told him that I didn’t think God liked all the violence
posted by CostcoCultist at 8:25 PM on September 18 [4 favorites]
In the same way the Ukraine government is responsible for the continued shelling of Kyiv and other cities far from the front (and fighting at the front foot that matter). If they just peacefully ceded the territory, nobody would need to die!
Last I checked, Ukraine didn’t respond to their invasion by indiscriminately slaughtering and kidnapping Russian citizens.
Hamas acted knowing full well how Netanyahu and the ultra-Zionist fascists in his cabinet would respond. Hell, I would argue that is precisely why they did it — they wanted Israel to indiscriminately murder Palestinians. It shored up their grip on power internally and gave them increased clout and prestige internationally. Bibi and the IDF did just what they hoped — and all it cost them was a couple hundred thousand Palestinian civilians.
posted by Big Al 8000 at 8:28 PM on September 18 [2 favorites]
Last I checked, Ukraine didn’t respond to their invasion by indiscriminately slaughtering and kidnapping Russian citizens.
Hamas acted knowing full well how Netanyahu and the ultra-Zionist fascists in his cabinet would respond. Hell, I would argue that is precisely why they did it — they wanted Israel to indiscriminately murder Palestinians. It shored up their grip on power internally and gave them increased clout and prestige internationally. Bibi and the IDF did just what they hoped — and all it cost them was a couple hundred thousand Palestinian civilians.
posted by Big Al 8000 at 8:28 PM on September 18 [2 favorites]
You cannot use another person as a murder weapon. The other person is always responsible for the own actions.
Similarly, you cannot pin the actions of the IDF on Hamas. The IDF are responsible for the actions they choose to take.
Just like Ukraine aren't responsible for the predictable wave of airstrikes and artillery bombardments that happen every time they launch an offensive or regain territory. It's almost like they want the Russians to attack, shore up their domestic support.
posted by Dysk at 8:31 PM on September 18 [11 favorites]
Similarly, you cannot pin the actions of the IDF on Hamas. The IDF are responsible for the actions they choose to take.
Just like Ukraine aren't responsible for the predictable wave of airstrikes and artillery bombardments that happen every time they launch an offensive or regain territory. It's almost like they want the Russians to attack, shore up their domestic support.
posted by Dysk at 8:31 PM on September 18 [11 favorites]
That feels antisemitic... The Israeli Jewish majority-led government just can't help themselves but kill Muslims? In any case, there's also a missing component to that worldview (that I've seen, from liberal Zionists especially - eg Haaretz op-eds about how Hamas is leading them to commit genocide, something something genocide trap) - in that as Israel can't help itself but kill its neighbours (in this case the very much not-occupied Lebanon), this is the historical/established/conventional reason why the USA has to play the bad guy and step in to say no. Part of the domestic handwringing discourse has been over why the USA has not stepped up at all ("doesn't Biden know Bibi wants Trump to win?" etc etc). The script is falling apart, not least because the racists are at the helm.
Because now Lebanese are now trying to be treated with doctors testifying people are coming in without eyes or faces and other numerous horrific injuries. Israel can't but help to kill Lebanese too?
posted by cendawanita at 8:36 PM on September 18 [5 favorites]
Because now Lebanese are now trying to be treated with doctors testifying people are coming in without eyes or faces and other numerous horrific injuries. Israel can't but help to kill Lebanese too?
posted by cendawanita at 8:36 PM on September 18 [5 favorites]
The Israeli Jewish majority-led government just can't help themselves but kill Muslims?
Are you implying that the only salient characteristic about Netanyahu is that he is an Israeli Jew? His political positions are indistinguishable from other Israeli politicians? Are you saying that all Jews are alike?
I’m going to stop right here and say that I don’t believe that is what you are saying. I’m not interested in the typical internet “debate” where we exchange bad-faith readings of what the other person writes so we can feel the smug satisfaction of getting one over on the other person in order to get internet points.
I think it’s safe to say we agree that Israel’s lack of care in preventing civilian casualties is wrong. I think we even agree that it is done deliberately which is even worse. Where I think we disagree is that because Hamas and Hezbollah are enemies of Israel they are therefore automatically on the side of righteousness. I have seen nothing to convince me that, were the economic and military tables turned, they wouldn’t engage in similar fuckery.
I am very much anti-genocide and pro-people living lives of self-determination. Palestinians and Israelis deserve just futures. I don’t believe Netanyahu (and his ilk), Hamas or Hezbollah (or their ilk) will deliver justice for anyone. I don’t know who will and that is what I find most frustrating.
posted by Big Al 8000 at 9:11 PM on September 18 [6 favorites]
Are you implying that the only salient characteristic about Netanyahu is that he is an Israeli Jew? His political positions are indistinguishable from other Israeli politicians? Are you saying that all Jews are alike?
I’m going to stop right here and say that I don’t believe that is what you are saying. I’m not interested in the typical internet “debate” where we exchange bad-faith readings of what the other person writes so we can feel the smug satisfaction of getting one over on the other person in order to get internet points.
I think it’s safe to say we agree that Israel’s lack of care in preventing civilian casualties is wrong. I think we even agree that it is done deliberately which is even worse. Where I think we disagree is that because Hamas and Hezbollah are enemies of Israel they are therefore automatically on the side of righteousness. I have seen nothing to convince me that, were the economic and military tables turned, they wouldn’t engage in similar fuckery.
I am very much anti-genocide and pro-people living lives of self-determination. Palestinians and Israelis deserve just futures. I don’t believe Netanyahu (and his ilk), Hamas or Hezbollah (or their ilk) will deliver justice for anyone. I don’t know who will and that is what I find most frustrating.
posted by Big Al 8000 at 9:11 PM on September 18 [6 favorites]
Ok, but this thread is about the Lebanon bombings though.
posted by cendawanita at 9:13 PM on September 18 [7 favorites]
posted by cendawanita at 9:13 PM on September 18 [7 favorites]
because Hamas and Hezbollah are enemies of Israel they are therefore automatically on the side of righteousness.
Has anyone in this thread actually expressed the opinion that Hezbollah or especially Hamas are "righteous?"
posted by praemunire at 9:23 PM on September 18 [24 favorites]
Has anyone in this thread actually expressed the opinion that Hezbollah or especially Hamas are "righteous?"
posted by praemunire at 9:23 PM on September 18 [24 favorites]
Ori Goldberg, followed by Hamze Attar, on AJ: (title quoting him) ‘Smugness and fear’ among the Israeli public after Lebanon blasts: Israeli political analyst - he does think that for all the sabre-rattling there's no actual indication of an actual mobilization (which begs the question what's the value of all these terror attacks)
EU: Statement by the High Representative [Josep Borrell] on the series of explosions across the country: ...Even if the attacks seem to have been targeted, they had heavy, indiscriminate collateral damages among civilians: several children are among the victims
I consider this situation extremely worrying. I can only condemn these attacks that endanger the security and stability of Lebanon, and increase the risk of escalation in the region....
Sky (UK): Raw anger and real fear on streets of Lebanon after deadly pager and radio explosions -
Barely had the funerals of four people killed in pager explosions begun, the Sky News team in Beirut heard the sound of an explosion a short distance away, followed by shouts and screams.
posted by cendawanita at 9:25 PM on September 18 [6 favorites]
EU: Statement by the High Representative [Josep Borrell] on the series of explosions across the country: ...Even if the attacks seem to have been targeted, they had heavy, indiscriminate collateral damages among civilians: several children are among the victims
I consider this situation extremely worrying. I can only condemn these attacks that endanger the security and stability of Lebanon, and increase the risk of escalation in the region....
Sky (UK): Raw anger and real fear on streets of Lebanon after deadly pager and radio explosions -
Barely had the funerals of four people killed in pager explosions begun, the Sky News team in Beirut heard the sound of an explosion a short distance away, followed by shouts and screams.
posted by cendawanita at 9:25 PM on September 18 [6 favorites]
Which reminds me, because of the inability of foreign press in particular to be located in any part of Palestine (sometimes they're able to be accredited and be based out of Tel Aviv), unlike Gaza, take a wild guess which city you can likely find the foreign press whose beat does in fact cover Palestine and Israel?
posted by cendawanita at 9:27 PM on September 18 [4 favorites]
posted by cendawanita at 9:27 PM on September 18 [4 favorites]
Well, people keep on calling Israel a terrorist state and defending Hezbollah as some sort of innocent party in all of this which I believe strains credulity. Hezbollah calls for the destruction of Israel, which means this is an existential fight for Israel. If you were being threatened in that manner, are you saying you wouldn’t fight dirty? If this were solely about the border between Lebanon and Israel, I’d be more sympathetic to that position.
Again, the civilian deaths are indefensible but the idea that Israel can only target Hezbollah members when they’re actively shooting across the border (which has been stated in this thread) is absurd.
posted by Big Al 8000 at 9:40 PM on September 18 [5 favorites]
Again, the civilian deaths are indefensible but the idea that Israel can only target Hezbollah members when they’re actively shooting across the border (which has been stated in this thread) is absurd.
posted by Big Al 8000 at 9:40 PM on September 18 [5 favorites]
Well, people keep on calling Israel a terrorist state
The use of booby traps is banned under the law of war; using explosive devices that may detonate among a civilian population is a tactic of terror. Israel is a terrorist state, by definition.
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 9:47 PM on September 18 [32 favorites]
The use of booby traps is banned under the law of war; using explosive devices that may detonate among a civilian population is a tactic of terror. Israel is a terrorist state, by definition.
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 9:47 PM on September 18 [32 favorites]
Well, people keep on calling Israel a terrorist state and defending Hezbollah as some sort of innocent party in all of this
I'm actually defending the 11-year-old girl who died as some sort of innocent party in all of this.
Your mileage may vary.
posted by Gadarene at 9:53 PM on September 18 [23 favorites]
I'm actually defending the 11-year-old girl who died as some sort of innocent party in all of this.
Your mileage may vary.
posted by Gadarene at 9:53 PM on September 18 [23 favorites]
Israel has been a terrorist state since it was founded. Irgun, Haganah, and other groups were integral to the establishment of Israel.
posted by adrienneleigh at 10:16 PM on September 18 [15 favorites]
posted by adrienneleigh at 10:16 PM on September 18 [15 favorites]
From this BBC article: In an interview with the BBC, an ophthalmologist at Mount Lebanon University Hospital in Beirut said the past 24 hours there had been “a nightmare”.
“Unfortunately, we were not able to save a lot of eyes," Dr Elias Warrak said, adding that more than 60 to 70% of the patients ended up with at least one eye removed.
“Some of the patients, we had to remove both eyes. It kills me. In my past 25 years in practice, I’ve never removed as many eyes as I did yesterday.”
posted by cendawanita at 10:16 PM on September 18 [8 favorites]
“Unfortunately, we were not able to save a lot of eyes," Dr Elias Warrak said, adding that more than 60 to 70% of the patients ended up with at least one eye removed.
“Some of the patients, we had to remove both eyes. It kills me. In my past 25 years in practice, I’ve never removed as many eyes as I did yesterday.”
posted by cendawanita at 10:16 PM on September 18 [8 favorites]
Guardian: ‘Sophisticated evil’: Beirut medics and civilians horrified by pager attacks -
People describe panic when explosions started and ‘apocalyptic’ scenes inside hospitals overwhelmed by injured patients
(note where that story is being filed from. Maybe Israel can try invading Lebanon again so they can cancel these journos' visas too)
posted by cendawanita at 11:22 PM on September 18 [6 favorites]
People describe panic when explosions started and ‘apocalyptic’ scenes inside hospitals overwhelmed by injured patients
(note where that story is being filed from. Maybe Israel can try invading Lebanon again so they can cancel these journos' visas too)
posted by cendawanita at 11:22 PM on September 18 [6 favorites]
Again, the civilian deaths are indefensible but
"...I will now defend them nonetheless. in this 🧵, I will be playing the greatest hits. EXISTENSHELL STRUGGLE..."
posted by busted_crayons at 11:37 PM on September 18 [17 favorites]
"...I will now defend them nonetheless. in this 🧵, I will be playing the greatest hits. EXISTENSHELL STRUGGLE..."
posted by busted_crayons at 11:37 PM on September 18 [17 favorites]
Hezbollah calls for the destruction of Israel
It's hard to see this type of reasoning as anything but an attempt to justify heinous acts of violence.
We've been hearing this since Oct. 7th, since September 11th, etc. The state response will be 1000% times worse, because its revenge by a much more powerful force. The warmongers don't even hide their intentions. Only after, the apologists come out to justify these actions, and speak in oh so reasonable terms.
Israel actions are disproportionate. Akin to if some kid punched my kid on the playground, and in return I went to the kids home, set it on fire, and burned their neighbors houses down for good measure.
I want to give you the benefit of the doubt here. I get it. Our machine devalues poor and brown lives, it's so deeply written into every news media, that even NYTimes et al engage in the passive voice and other parlor tricks to make Palestinian deaths seem just a bit less - when in fact, the numbers are just so much more. Anyone loudly proclaiming "what about the hostages?" is really saying some lives matter more then others.
Justification of state violence needs to be called out and addressed when its trotted out. It's nearly always accompanied with identifying as the victim, merely fighting for survival. Maybe look at Israeli media, and the right wing Zionists, who are very clear about what they want.
You talk about Hezbollah wanting Israel's destruction? Right now, because of Israel's actions, it's all but ensuring that. What we need now is Netanyahu in his bunker, the regime toppled, Mossad and the IDF prosecuted. Israel as a state may survive. Germany post WWII still exists. But if action doesn't happen soon, the world will stop seeing this as Netanyahu, and just see Israel, and it may be too late.
posted by iamck at 12:00 AM on September 19 [30 favorites]
It's hard to see this type of reasoning as anything but an attempt to justify heinous acts of violence.
We've been hearing this since Oct. 7th, since September 11th, etc. The state response will be 1000% times worse, because its revenge by a much more powerful force. The warmongers don't even hide their intentions. Only after, the apologists come out to justify these actions, and speak in oh so reasonable terms.
Israel actions are disproportionate. Akin to if some kid punched my kid on the playground, and in return I went to the kids home, set it on fire, and burned their neighbors houses down for good measure.
I want to give you the benefit of the doubt here. I get it. Our machine devalues poor and brown lives, it's so deeply written into every news media, that even NYTimes et al engage in the passive voice and other parlor tricks to make Palestinian deaths seem just a bit less - when in fact, the numbers are just so much more. Anyone loudly proclaiming "what about the hostages?" is really saying some lives matter more then others.
Justification of state violence needs to be called out and addressed when its trotted out. It's nearly always accompanied with identifying as the victim, merely fighting for survival. Maybe look at Israeli media, and the right wing Zionists, who are very clear about what they want.
You talk about Hezbollah wanting Israel's destruction? Right now, because of Israel's actions, it's all but ensuring that. What we need now is Netanyahu in his bunker, the regime toppled, Mossad and the IDF prosecuted. Israel as a state may survive. Germany post WWII still exists. But if action doesn't happen soon, the world will stop seeing this as Netanyahu, and just see Israel, and it may be too late.
posted by iamck at 12:00 AM on September 19 [30 favorites]
Where I think we disagree is that because Hamas and Hezbollah are enemies of Israel they are therefore automatically on the side of righteousness.
Nobody is doing that. You and plenty others are treating the fact that they are "enemies of Israel" as justification for targeting entire organisations whenever, wherever, as if being an enemy of Israel inherently made you a valid target. Disagreeing with that does not mean thinking they are righteous. They don't have to be right for Israel's actions to be wrong.
posted by Dysk at 12:13 AM on September 19 [30 favorites]
Nobody is doing that. You and plenty others are treating the fact that they are "enemies of Israel" as justification for targeting entire organisations whenever, wherever, as if being an enemy of Israel inherently made you a valid target. Disagreeing with that does not mean thinking they are righteous. They don't have to be right for Israel's actions to be wrong.
posted by Dysk at 12:13 AM on September 19 [30 favorites]
Hmm, this news predates the terror attacks by about a week - so far no public reports are drawing a connection but it would be strange to assume this doesn't factor in somehow:
US Military: US Aircraft Carrier in the Middle East Is Heading Home
The Pentagon's rare move to keep two Navy aircraft carriers in the Middle East over the past several weeks has now finished, as the USS Theodore Roosevelt is heading home, according to U.S. officials.
U.S. Defense Secretary Lloyd Austin had ordered the Roosevelt to extend its deployment for a short time and remain in the region as the USS Abraham Lincoln was pushed to get to the area more quickly. The Biden administration beefed up the U.S. military presence there to help defend Israel from possible attacks by Iran and its proxies and to safeguard U.S. troops.
(...) Prior to last fall, however, it had been years since the U.S. had committed that much warship power to the region.
They were heading to the Pacific theatre side of things.
From Reuters: Officials have been concerned that Iran might make also good on its threats to carry out an attack against Israel over the killing of a Hamas leader in Tehran in July.
[Pentagon spokesperson Major General Patrick] Ryder played down the idea that the United States was no longer concerned about potential Iranian action and said the decision was based on the Navy's fleet management.
posted by cendawanita at 1:42 AM on September 19 [3 favorites]
US Military: US Aircraft Carrier in the Middle East Is Heading Home
The Pentagon's rare move to keep two Navy aircraft carriers in the Middle East over the past several weeks has now finished, as the USS Theodore Roosevelt is heading home, according to U.S. officials.
U.S. Defense Secretary Lloyd Austin had ordered the Roosevelt to extend its deployment for a short time and remain in the region as the USS Abraham Lincoln was pushed to get to the area more quickly. The Biden administration beefed up the U.S. military presence there to help defend Israel from possible attacks by Iran and its proxies and to safeguard U.S. troops.
(...) Prior to last fall, however, it had been years since the U.S. had committed that much warship power to the region.
They were heading to the Pacific theatre side of things.
From Reuters: Officials have been concerned that Iran might make also good on its threats to carry out an attack against Israel over the killing of a Hamas leader in Tehran in July.
[Pentagon spokesperson Major General Patrick] Ryder played down the idea that the United States was no longer concerned about potential Iranian action and said the decision was based on the Navy's fleet management.
posted by cendawanita at 1:42 AM on September 19 [3 favorites]
Daniel Denvir:
Given the absolute bottomless evil of the Gaza genocide I’ve been thinking through why the mass Israeli terrorist attack in Lebanon feels particularly horrible and revolting in the ways that it does. A few ideas: The media framing of the attack as “tech savvy, interesting!”; 1/2
lack of even a basic expectation that US might condemn the attack or change policy as result; reminder that Western anti-Palestinian racism bolsters a more general anti-Arab racism and Islamophobia that hypothetically legitimizes the murder of hundreds of millions of people. 2/2
posted by cendawanita at 1:51 AM on September 19 [14 favorites]
Given the absolute bottomless evil of the Gaza genocide I’ve been thinking through why the mass Israeli terrorist attack in Lebanon feels particularly horrible and revolting in the ways that it does. A few ideas: The media framing of the attack as “tech savvy, interesting!”; 1/2
lack of even a basic expectation that US might condemn the attack or change policy as result; reminder that Western anti-Palestinian racism bolsters a more general anti-Arab racism and Islamophobia that hypothetically legitimizes the murder of hundreds of millions of people. 2/2
posted by cendawanita at 1:51 AM on September 19 [14 favorites]
So, as I was saying about the supply chain-- Zhao Dashuai: Posts from Chinese social media, stating factories are running overnight shifts to accommodate huge orders of communication devices from the Middle East.
A requirement from clients, is that the whole manufacturing process must be done inside China.
Bad gtranslate of the screenshot: The factory where my classmate works produces headsets and microphones for customer service. We had planned to have a classmate dinner with him after the Mid-Autumn Festival last night, but he canceled it...
This morning, he told us that he had been arranging orders in the factory all night yesterday, all of which were for the Middle East. Many customers also required that the entire process must be produced in China, not
We have to use third-party imported components. The time difference in China is too bad. We have to communicate with customers according to their time difference.
(You know how China gets to play the Big Bad Boogeyman of one of the foreign powers who must surely benefit should the west esp US turns off it's arms spigot to Israel? idk maybe that's still a trenchant point - I'm caught by the market size of the Middle East that is not Israel though -- heck maybe it could even include Israel too at this point, if you're a critic of the present government.)
Big brains of Biden and Bibi strike again.
posted by cendawanita at 3:24 AM on September 19 [4 favorites]
A requirement from clients, is that the whole manufacturing process must be done inside China.
Bad gtranslate of the screenshot: The factory where my classmate works produces headsets and microphones for customer service. We had planned to have a classmate dinner with him after the Mid-Autumn Festival last night, but he canceled it...
This morning, he told us that he had been arranging orders in the factory all night yesterday, all of which were for the Middle East. Many customers also required that the entire process must be produced in China, not
We have to use third-party imported components. The time difference in China is too bad. We have to communicate with customers according to their time difference.
(You know how China gets to play the Big Bad Boogeyman of one of the foreign powers who must surely benefit should the west esp US turns off it's arms spigot to Israel? idk maybe that's still a trenchant point - I'm caught by the market size of the Middle East that is not Israel though -- heck maybe it could even include Israel too at this point, if you're a critic of the present government.)
Big brains of Biden and Bibi strike again.
posted by cendawanita at 3:24 AM on September 19 [4 favorites]
Perhaps it may help if we all distinguished between the actions of a nation's government and the actions of its citizens. To wit:
The use of booby traps is banned under the law of war; using explosive devices that may detonate among a civilian population is a tactic of terror. Israel is a terrorist state, by definition.
That particular finger, to my mind, should be pointed at the Israeli government, as opposed to "Israel" itself. Every nation has citizens who disagree with the actions of its government, and are likely working to whatever degree they can to alter the actions of said government. Likewise, there are many countries whose leaders are taking actions that serve their own ends and not the will of its citizens.
Lumping the entire populace of a country into the same bucket as the government they disagree with or object to -- well, at the very least it probably makes conversations like this difficult. Imagine if, instead of saying that Israel was suspected in this pager attack in Lebanon, we said that "the Iraeli military" was culpable, or "Netenyahu" was culpable, and discussed accordingly.
It's not a panacea, but it might bring the temperature of conversations down, and that is often the first step to finding a resolution. Also, to counter the argument that "but a citizen participating in an election is a participant in that government" - consider how many people voted AGAINST Donald Trump in 2016 and still ended up with him as president. Should they be counted as his supporters?
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 4:00 AM on September 19 [5 favorites]
The use of booby traps is banned under the law of war; using explosive devices that may detonate among a civilian population is a tactic of terror. Israel is a terrorist state, by definition.
That particular finger, to my mind, should be pointed at the Israeli government, as opposed to "Israel" itself. Every nation has citizens who disagree with the actions of its government, and are likely working to whatever degree they can to alter the actions of said government. Likewise, there are many countries whose leaders are taking actions that serve their own ends and not the will of its citizens.
Lumping the entire populace of a country into the same bucket as the government they disagree with or object to -- well, at the very least it probably makes conversations like this difficult. Imagine if, instead of saying that Israel was suspected in this pager attack in Lebanon, we said that "the Iraeli military" was culpable, or "Netenyahu" was culpable, and discussed accordingly.
It's not a panacea, but it might bring the temperature of conversations down, and that is often the first step to finding a resolution. Also, to counter the argument that "but a citizen participating in an election is a participant in that government" - consider how many people voted AGAINST Donald Trump in 2016 and still ended up with him as president. Should they be counted as his supporters?
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 4:00 AM on September 19 [5 favorites]
why stop at pagers? maybe they'll insist that a lot of things be made entirely in china, like cars and tv sets and whatever
what israel just did was to upset the economic apple cart by making it so many people don't trust their supply chains any more
the consequences of this have just begun
posted by pyramid termite at 4:02 AM on September 19 [8 favorites]
what israel just did was to upset the economic apple cart by making it so many people don't trust their supply chains any more
the consequences of this have just begun
posted by pyramid termite at 4:02 AM on September 19 [8 favorites]
Israel can't but help to kill Lebanese too?
Well, to some people's surprise, they find Israel isn't killing people in Egypt, Saudi Arabia, or Jordan. But rest assured, if they start firing 10,000 rockets into Israel, they will find themselves on the receiving end too. On Oct 7 I read the news and my first thought was, oh, Gaza is going to get smashed. Then on Oct 8 Hezbollah starts shooting at Israel too, I'm like, Israel isn't going to forget, they're eventually going to turn around and head north.
Also Hezbollah choosing to buy product from Europe, despite sanctions, when they could have bought their communications devices from China to begin with, for cheaper? Big brains all around there too.
Even Malaysia (along with around 60 other countries) considers Hezbollah a terrorist organization. I'm surprised they managed to obtain comms from Europe to begin with. We're not supposed to be selling them anything!
A requirement from clients, is that the whole manufacturing process must be done inside China.
Compromising a manufacturing facility in Taiwan or Europe is borderline fantasy, if that's what they're thinking. How would you even smuggle high explosive materials through border control in Taiwan or Europe, and compromise the production process for several days / weeks during their manufacture - ensuring all the line workers and supervisors don't realise anything despite stringent quality controls?
Far simpler to just buy a pallet of 5,000 pagers yourself, modify them, then intercept the shipment Hezbollah ordered en-route and quickly replace a single pallet of product with your tampered products.
The pagers in question had a 3 month layover at port awaiting clearances (Al-Jazeera) and swapping them out would have taken just a few minutes.
posted by xdvesper at 4:07 AM on September 19 [2 favorites]
Well, to some people's surprise, they find Israel isn't killing people in Egypt, Saudi Arabia, or Jordan. But rest assured, if they start firing 10,000 rockets into Israel, they will find themselves on the receiving end too. On Oct 7 I read the news and my first thought was, oh, Gaza is going to get smashed. Then on Oct 8 Hezbollah starts shooting at Israel too, I'm like, Israel isn't going to forget, they're eventually going to turn around and head north.
Also Hezbollah choosing to buy product from Europe, despite sanctions, when they could have bought their communications devices from China to begin with, for cheaper? Big brains all around there too.
Even Malaysia (along with around 60 other countries) considers Hezbollah a terrorist organization. I'm surprised they managed to obtain comms from Europe to begin with. We're not supposed to be selling them anything!
A requirement from clients, is that the whole manufacturing process must be done inside China.
Compromising a manufacturing facility in Taiwan or Europe is borderline fantasy, if that's what they're thinking. How would you even smuggle high explosive materials through border control in Taiwan or Europe, and compromise the production process for several days / weeks during their manufacture - ensuring all the line workers and supervisors don't realise anything despite stringent quality controls?
Far simpler to just buy a pallet of 5,000 pagers yourself, modify them, then intercept the shipment Hezbollah ordered en-route and quickly replace a single pallet of product with your tampered products.
The pagers in question had a 3 month layover at port awaiting clearances (Al-Jazeera) and swapping them out would have taken just a few minutes.
posted by xdvesper at 4:07 AM on September 19 [2 favorites]
lol at the requirement that we say "The Israeli government, who as we all know have nothing to do with Israel as a country"...
a) this is one of the most common pieces of synecdoche used around the world
b) look at some public opinion polling from within Israel
c) why does Israel get that level of deference? They're not practicing that level of discrimination in their targeting of terror weapons.
posted by sagc at 4:10 AM on September 19 [23 favorites]
a) this is one of the most common pieces of synecdoche used around the world
b) look at some public opinion polling from within Israel
c) why does Israel get that level of deference? They're not practicing that level of discrimination in their targeting of terror weapons.
posted by sagc at 4:10 AM on September 19 [23 favorites]
One strategic issue this attack brings up with its required high level of operational security and somewhat indiscriminate targeting of members within hezbollah is that there is no way Israel/Mossad could protect their own undercover intelligence assets or collaborators without blowing the op.
So they will not only have potentially killed/harmed some people actively working for them as well as possibly their families, they will also have sent a terrible recruiting message of expendability to potential Lebanese allies.
posted by srboisvert at 4:40 AM on September 19 [4 favorites]
So they will not only have potentially killed/harmed some people actively working for them as well as possibly their families, they will also have sent a terrible recruiting message of expendability to potential Lebanese allies.
posted by srboisvert at 4:40 AM on September 19 [4 favorites]
Far simpler to just buy a pallet of 5,000 pagers yourself, modify them, then intercept the shipment Hezbollah ordered en-route and quickly replace a single pallet of product with your tampered products.
Ah, so boycotting Israel as a shipping port not to mention other ports in the route too?
lol at the requirement that we say "The Israeli government, who as we all know have nothing to do with Israel as a country"...
RIP international sports commentary. Let's start with Olympics thread. But my sympathies nevertheless to the people who didn't vote for Biden (is that how it works?). And where does that leave us with the Lebanese who both may or may not have any Hezb affiliations?
Hmm I wonder if there's something in the (propaganda) air... Pixie Of Death (Israeli; gone anonymous too): Spent the last 15 minutes listening to an Israeli radio segment about the fact that international law experts are criticizing Israel’s explosive device-rigging in Lebanon, and the level of contempt Israelis have for international law is only matched by their ignorance about it.
Because coincidentally, I have these open in my tabs:
Just Security: Law of War Questions Raised by Exploding Pagers in Lebanon
And from a military lawyer writing for the Lieber Institute in West Point: Exploding Pagers and the Law -
Targeting a device that it is known that the adverse party to the conflict has issued to persons who are lawful targets would not at first glance appear to be an indiscriminate act. The object itself, the pager, if it has been issued for military purposes (e.g. to promote effective communication between commanders and subordinate units and personnel) can be classed as a military objective and thus as a lawful target with the consequence that attacking that pager, destroying it or damaging it are lawful activities.
If the target comprises the persons to whom the pagers have been issued, and if they are classed as fighters in the NIAC, then again in principle the targeting of those individuals will be lawful (International Institute of Humanitarian Law, Manual on the Law of Non-International Armed Conflict, para. 1.1.2.). If, however, it is known that the pagers are likely to be in the possession of persons who cannot be classed as fighters, for example because the individuals in question have exclusively diplomatic, political or administrative roles for Hezbollah and have no combat-related function, such persons should be categorised as civilians, and it would not be lawful to target them.
A key component of the precautions that attackers must take is the duty to take care to spare civilians and civilian objects. This implies a duty to ensure in advance of the attack as far as possible that the attack is directed at a lawful target and that the proportionality rule, explained earlier, will not be breached. Yoram Dinstein makes the vitally important point as follows:
In any post-event analysis, there is a temptation to scrutinize the situation with the benefit of knowledge of the facts as they unfolded rather than as foreseen at the time of the attack. The temptation must be strongly resisted: a post-event reviewer must put himself in the shoes of the planner, decision-maker or actor in real time (possessed with the information actually at his disposal, faulty as it may turn out to have been) (p. 190).
posted by cendawanita at 4:55 AM on September 19 [9 favorites]
Ah, so boycotting Israel as a shipping port not to mention other ports in the route too?
lol at the requirement that we say "The Israeli government, who as we all know have nothing to do with Israel as a country"...
RIP international sports commentary. Let's start with Olympics thread. But my sympathies nevertheless to the people who didn't vote for Biden (is that how it works?). And where does that leave us with the Lebanese who both may or may not have any Hezb affiliations?
Hmm I wonder if there's something in the (propaganda) air... Pixie Of Death (Israeli; gone anonymous too): Spent the last 15 minutes listening to an Israeli radio segment about the fact that international law experts are criticizing Israel’s explosive device-rigging in Lebanon, and the level of contempt Israelis have for international law is only matched by their ignorance about it.
Because coincidentally, I have these open in my tabs:
Just Security: Law of War Questions Raised by Exploding Pagers in Lebanon
And from a military lawyer writing for the Lieber Institute in West Point: Exploding Pagers and the Law -
Targeting a device that it is known that the adverse party to the conflict has issued to persons who are lawful targets would not at first glance appear to be an indiscriminate act. The object itself, the pager, if it has been issued for military purposes (e.g. to promote effective communication between commanders and subordinate units and personnel) can be classed as a military objective and thus as a lawful target with the consequence that attacking that pager, destroying it or damaging it are lawful activities.
If the target comprises the persons to whom the pagers have been issued, and if they are classed as fighters in the NIAC, then again in principle the targeting of those individuals will be lawful (International Institute of Humanitarian Law, Manual on the Law of Non-International Armed Conflict, para. 1.1.2.). If, however, it is known that the pagers are likely to be in the possession of persons who cannot be classed as fighters, for example because the individuals in question have exclusively diplomatic, political or administrative roles for Hezbollah and have no combat-related function, such persons should be categorised as civilians, and it would not be lawful to target them.
A key component of the precautions that attackers must take is the duty to take care to spare civilians and civilian objects. This implies a duty to ensure in advance of the attack as far as possible that the attack is directed at a lawful target and that the proportionality rule, explained earlier, will not be breached. Yoram Dinstein makes the vitally important point as follows:
In any post-event analysis, there is a temptation to scrutinize the situation with the benefit of knowledge of the facts as they unfolded rather than as foreseen at the time of the attack. The temptation must be strongly resisted: a post-event reviewer must put himself in the shoes of the planner, decision-maker or actor in real time (possessed with the information actually at his disposal, faulty as it may turn out to have been) (p. 190).
posted by cendawanita at 4:55 AM on September 19 [9 favorites]
Also: The pagers in question had a 3 month layover at port awaiting clearances (Al-Jazeera) and swapping them out would have taken just a few minutes.
I... Don't know how to square this assertion with the realities of modern shipping plus the need to keep this within opsec limits without implicating a whole portfull of people. (5000 pagers is maybe one pallet? Two? To be packed in a container that can fit how many pallets? How to guarantee that pallet is the closest to the doors without tampering the rest? Should they travel with special stickers or barcode? Oh! Someone should be a lookout? Why not, we're in Megamind Oceans 200 here.)
(ETA: and we have to square this level of detail and care with every other level of carelessness exhibited? Give the guy supervising this phase a raise.)
posted by cendawanita at 4:59 AM on September 19 [6 favorites]
I... Don't know how to square this assertion with the realities of modern shipping plus the need to keep this within opsec limits without implicating a whole portfull of people. (5000 pagers is maybe one pallet? Two? To be packed in a container that can fit how many pallets? How to guarantee that pallet is the closest to the doors without tampering the rest? Should they travel with special stickers or barcode? Oh! Someone should be a lookout? Why not, we're in Megamind Oceans 200 here.)
(ETA: and we have to square this level of detail and care with every other level of carelessness exhibited? Give the guy supervising this phase a raise.)
posted by cendawanita at 4:59 AM on September 19 [6 favorites]
Israel actions are disproportionate. Akin to if some kid punched my kid on the playground, and in return I went to the kids home, set it on fire, and burned their neighbors houses down for good measure.Let’s not whitewash what happened when they were attacked a year ago, which was brutal. A better analogy is clan warfare: someone killed your brother and in return you go slaughter their entire extended family, most of whom didn’t know about or support the first action. The level of offense was similar on both cases but the scale is wildly different and indiscriminate.
That particular finger, to my mind, should be pointed at the Israeli government, as opposed to "Israel" itself. Every nation has citizens who disagree with the actions of its government, and are likely working to whatever degree they can to alter the actions of said government. Likewise, there are many countries whose leaders are taking actions that serve their own ends and not the will of its citizens.I think it’s definitely worth remembering that majorities of the Israeli population have disapproved of Netanyahu in most polls since October 7th. My biggest concern here is that the rise of criticism attacking Israel as a whole rather than his specific decisions will start to push voters to accept him because they feel cornered. It’s tricky to draw a distinction sometime but I think we have to allow people a third place if this is ever going to improve.
posted by adamsc at 5:10 AM on September 19 [5 favorites]
These booby trap attacks are unconscionable and the number of news outlets focusing on the technical innovation or techno-thriller aspects shameful.
The US is a terrorist state. Israel is a terrorist state. Lebanon (based on the same synecdoche, not just Hezbollah) are a terrorist state. Palestine (based again on the actions attributable to the whole based on some parts) is a terrorist state while also experiencing an active genocide. It's not unfair to point out that "terrorist state" isn't especially useful when what matters is whether now or in some future expectation their actions might result in further sanctions or prosecutions.
The magic lever of "aha now that you admit it's a terrorist state international law and the condemnation of their peers will... " is the Surely This of political rhetoric.
Laying blame at the human decision makers might invite depersonalization, but it also sets a clear target: change the regime and its policies. Who to contact and oppose. The broad brush approach, I'm sure, feels very satisfying but it lacks the rhetorical punch - and more importantly, effectiveness, of focusing on the decision makers and their motivations.
So, yeah, while it may be super satisfying to condemn nations rhetorically it isn't furthering the cause of justice. Just satisfaction and righteous anger - which is great, but changes a lot fewer minds and inspires a lot less action than it used to as risks for speaking out have become present and real. The bar to drive individual action needs to overcome the drag and quite literally fear of persecution for that action.
Should it be so? Of course not, but that's the universe we're in so pretending and arguing like it's not invites stalemate.
posted by Lenie Clarke at 5:10 AM on September 19 [3 favorites]
The US is a terrorist state. Israel is a terrorist state. Lebanon (based on the same synecdoche, not just Hezbollah) are a terrorist state. Palestine (based again on the actions attributable to the whole based on some parts) is a terrorist state while also experiencing an active genocide. It's not unfair to point out that "terrorist state" isn't especially useful when what matters is whether now or in some future expectation their actions might result in further sanctions or prosecutions.
The magic lever of "aha now that you admit it's a terrorist state international law and the condemnation of their peers will... " is the Surely This of political rhetoric.
Laying blame at the human decision makers might invite depersonalization, but it also sets a clear target: change the regime and its policies. Who to contact and oppose. The broad brush approach, I'm sure, feels very satisfying but it lacks the rhetorical punch - and more importantly, effectiveness, of focusing on the decision makers and their motivations.
So, yeah, while it may be super satisfying to condemn nations rhetorically it isn't furthering the cause of justice. Just satisfaction and righteous anger - which is great, but changes a lot fewer minds and inspires a lot less action than it used to as risks for speaking out have become present and real. The bar to drive individual action needs to overcome the drag and quite literally fear of persecution for that action.
Should it be so? Of course not, but that's the universe we're in so pretending and arguing like it's not invites stalemate.
posted by Lenie Clarke at 5:10 AM on September 19 [3 favorites]
I was gonna share this Ori Goldberg thread as-is, but maybe I should tell this Israeli he's using "Israel" wrong.
1/ Israel's rolling terrorist attack in Lebanon is lifting the few veils of "liberalism" still covering the Israeli consensus. The horror in Gaza is mostly invisible to the Israeli public, often willfully so. But the clips of exploding Lebanese have spread like a wildfire. --->
2/ If Hamas presented something of an ethical quandry ("What can we do if they hide among civilians? This is a war!"), Hizballah presents nothing of the sort. "We made sure only terrorists would be hurt, right? They started! Anyone who hangs out with terrorists..." --->
3/ There's nothing about Lebanon or Lebanese society ("there is no Lebanon. It is an Iranian vassal state"). Nothing about the fear, the unprecedented invasion of the private sphere, the hospitals flooded by the critically injured. There is nothing because they are not real. --->
4/ That is the point. We didn't set out to kill them (and had we wanted a "real" genocide in Gaza we would have used our nuclear weapons), even though they deserve to die. They are villains in a game. We just set a process in motion. Implications? Who cares? --->
5/ They are not real. They don't have lives, loved ones, free time, social communities. That's why Israelis don't think of this attack as "terrorism". Terrorism is used against real people (us). They are two-dimensional phantasms. Who cares what happens to them? --->
6/ I think the most basic aspect of humanity is responsibility for one's actions. We don't do that, publicly or privately. Why would we? We are the only actual humans.
A point about Israeli public opinion - the majority opinion against Netanyahu doesn't correlate whether their security approach as a state is wrong. The Palestine ones and the related genocide has been covered in previous threads. I'll look out for when the Lebanon one is polled.
The US is a terrorist state. Israel is a terrorist state. Lebanon (based on the same synecdoche, not just Hezbollah) are a terrorist state. Palestine (based again on the actions attributable to the whole based on some parts) is a terrorist state while also experiencing an active genocide.
Gonna count this as progress for normalisation of Palestinian statehood, but at the expense of what words mean though....
posted by cendawanita at 5:17 AM on September 19 [10 favorites]
1/ Israel's rolling terrorist attack in Lebanon is lifting the few veils of "liberalism" still covering the Israeli consensus. The horror in Gaza is mostly invisible to the Israeli public, often willfully so. But the clips of exploding Lebanese have spread like a wildfire. --->
2/ If Hamas presented something of an ethical quandry ("What can we do if they hide among civilians? This is a war!"), Hizballah presents nothing of the sort. "We made sure only terrorists would be hurt, right? They started! Anyone who hangs out with terrorists..." --->
3/ There's nothing about Lebanon or Lebanese society ("there is no Lebanon. It is an Iranian vassal state"). Nothing about the fear, the unprecedented invasion of the private sphere, the hospitals flooded by the critically injured. There is nothing because they are not real. --->
4/ That is the point. We didn't set out to kill them (and had we wanted a "real" genocide in Gaza we would have used our nuclear weapons), even though they deserve to die. They are villains in a game. We just set a process in motion. Implications? Who cares? --->
5/ They are not real. They don't have lives, loved ones, free time, social communities. That's why Israelis don't think of this attack as "terrorism". Terrorism is used against real people (us). They are two-dimensional phantasms. Who cares what happens to them? --->
6/ I think the most basic aspect of humanity is responsibility for one's actions. We don't do that, publicly or privately. Why would we? We are the only actual humans.
A point about Israeli public opinion - the majority opinion against Netanyahu doesn't correlate whether their security approach as a state is wrong. The Palestine ones and the related genocide has been covered in previous threads. I'll look out for when the Lebanon one is polled.
The US is a terrorist state. Israel is a terrorist state. Lebanon (based on the same synecdoche, not just Hezbollah) are a terrorist state. Palestine (based again on the actions attributable to the whole based on some parts) is a terrorist state while also experiencing an active genocide.
Gonna count this as progress for normalisation of Palestinian statehood, but at the expense of what words mean though....
posted by cendawanita at 5:17 AM on September 19 [10 favorites]
Watch out Turkey: Israeli arrested over Iran plot to kill Netanyahu, Israeli security services say (BBC)
In a joint statement, they [police and intelligence] said the suspect was a businessman who had lived in Turkey and had Turkish contacts who had helped get him into Iran.
(...) It said that in April and May, the suspect twice travelled to Samandag in Turkey to meet a wealthy Iranian businessman called Eddie, and was helped by two Turkish citizens.
The statement said Eddie had problems leaving Iran on both occasions, so the Israeli citizen was smuggled from Turkey into Iran instead. It said that the man met both Eddie and "an Iranian security operative" there.
posted by cendawanita at 5:26 AM on September 19 [3 favorites]
In a joint statement, they [police and intelligence] said the suspect was a businessman who had lived in Turkey and had Turkish contacts who had helped get him into Iran.
(...) It said that in April and May, the suspect twice travelled to Samandag in Turkey to meet a wealthy Iranian businessman called Eddie, and was helped by two Turkish citizens.
The statement said Eddie had problems leaving Iran on both occasions, so the Israeli citizen was smuggled from Turkey into Iran instead. It said that the man met both Eddie and "an Iranian security operative" there.
posted by cendawanita at 5:26 AM on September 19 [3 favorites]
Ok, but this thread is about the Lebanon bombings though.
posted by Press Butt.on to Check at 5:28 AM on September 19 [4 favorites]
posted by Press Butt.on to Check at 5:28 AM on September 19 [4 favorites]
Ok, but this thread is about the Lebanon bombings though.
Adding a like before I be accused of being a bad sport.
posted by cendawanita at 5:49 AM on September 19 [11 favorites]
Adding a like before I be accused of being a bad sport.
posted by cendawanita at 5:49 AM on September 19 [11 favorites]
If you were being threatened in that manner, are you saying you wouldn’t fight dirty?
I was going to be lolzy about the amount of jail time I personally had on the line rather than do war crimes but instead I will just mention that this isn’t a hypothetical for armies and nations all across the globe that somehow refrain from doing this shit. And this wasn’t a hypothetical for the people who developed the law of war, who had seen their countries invaded and nearly destroyed or overrun completely and were still like “hey what if we weren’t monsters, what about that.”
posted by corb at 6:09 AM on September 19 [22 favorites]
I was going to be lolzy about the amount of jail time I personally had on the line rather than do war crimes but instead I will just mention that this isn’t a hypothetical for armies and nations all across the globe that somehow refrain from doing this shit. And this wasn’t a hypothetical for the people who developed the law of war, who had seen their countries invaded and nearly destroyed or overrun completely and were still like “hey what if we weren’t monsters, what about that.”
posted by corb at 6:09 AM on September 19 [22 favorites]
Austrian connection: (in German; the following is gtranslate) “Tom”, the man who is said to have had control over pager production in Austria
A possible clue regarding the origin of the pagers that exploded in Lebanon on Tuesday, injuring around 2,800 people and killing at least twelve, leads to Austria, as the "Presse" reported on Wednesday . A representative of the Hungarian company BAC Consulting Kft., which designed and manufactured the pagers, is based in Austria, said Hsu Ching-Kuang, CEO of the Taiwanese company Gold Apollo, whose logo was on the pagers, according to the "Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung".
However, Hsu never met this Austrian representative named "Tom" in person, but only had a video conference with him.
Bulgaria also gets a mention here.
posted by cendawanita at 6:41 AM on September 19 [4 favorites]
A possible clue regarding the origin of the pagers that exploded in Lebanon on Tuesday, injuring around 2,800 people and killing at least twelve, leads to Austria, as the "Presse" reported on Wednesday . A representative of the Hungarian company BAC Consulting Kft., which designed and manufactured the pagers, is based in Austria, said Hsu Ching-Kuang, CEO of the Taiwanese company Gold Apollo, whose logo was on the pagers, according to the "Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung".
However, Hsu never met this Austrian representative named "Tom" in person, but only had a video conference with him.
Bulgaria also gets a mention here.
posted by cendawanita at 6:41 AM on September 19 [4 favorites]
Perhaps it may help if we all distinguished between the actions of a nation's government and the actions of its citizens
I was actually already doing that, thanks. "State" refers to the government, not the people (cf. "affairs of state", "as a matter of state policy", etc.)
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 6:58 AM on September 19 [9 favorites]
I was actually already doing that, thanks. "State" refers to the government, not the people (cf. "affairs of state", "as a matter of state policy", etc.)
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 6:58 AM on September 19 [9 favorites]
Hungarian reporting for more on that Bulgarian connection: The pagers were sold to Hezbollah by a Bulgarian company, the Hungarian company was only used on paper
It was a company based in Sofia, Bulgaria, that bought the pagers which were eventually sold to Hezbollah from Taiwan, and the Hungarian company involved in the case did not actually do anything, the devices were never in Hungary, Telex has learned from sources familiar with the case. This latter information has since been officially confirmed by the Hungarian government as well.
Anyone with more familiarity to comment how far we can take Telex's reporting? In any case, now we have Norwegian connection (the recorded owner of the Bulgarian company), as you read their reporting.
posted by cendawanita at 6:59 AM on September 19 [3 favorites]
It was a company based in Sofia, Bulgaria, that bought the pagers which were eventually sold to Hezbollah from Taiwan, and the Hungarian company involved in the case did not actually do anything, the devices were never in Hungary, Telex has learned from sources familiar with the case. This latter information has since been officially confirmed by the Hungarian government as well.
Anyone with more familiarity to comment how far we can take Telex's reporting? In any case, now we have Norwegian connection (the recorded owner of the Bulgarian company), as you read their reporting.
posted by cendawanita at 6:59 AM on September 19 [3 favorites]
Mod note: Comment removed, please avoid condescending and dismissive language.
It’s ok to avoid a thread if it’s making you incredibly angry.
posted by Brandon Blatcher (staff) at 7:15 AM on September 19 [2 favorites]
It’s ok to avoid a thread if it’s making you incredibly angry.
posted by Brandon Blatcher (staff) at 7:15 AM on September 19 [2 favorites]
This won't be a great surprise to anyone, but the hacker group 'Handala Hack Team' claim they have linked the pager explosions to an Israeli battery company and are posting proof onto Telegram:
* This supply chain attack has taken place by contaminating the batteries of Pagers devices with a special type of heat-sensitive explosive material in the country of origin of the producer.
* Batteries have been contaminated with these explosives by IIB ( Israeli Industrial Batteries ) company in Nahariya.
* Mossad was responsible for transporting contaminated batteries to the country of origin of the producer.
* Due to the sensitivity of explosives detection devices to these batteries and the need to move them in several countries, Mossad, in cooperation with vidisco shell company, has moved the mentioned shipments.
* Vidisco company is an affiliated company of 8200 unit and today more than 84% of airports and seaports in the world use X-rays produced by this company in their security unit, which actually has a dedicated backdoor of 8200 unit and the Zionist regime It can exclude any shipment it considers in the countries using these devices and prevent the detection of sabotage
posted by Lanark at 7:23 AM on September 19 [11 favorites]
* This supply chain attack has taken place by contaminating the batteries of Pagers devices with a special type of heat-sensitive explosive material in the country of origin of the producer.
* Batteries have been contaminated with these explosives by IIB ( Israeli Industrial Batteries ) company in Nahariya.
* Mossad was responsible for transporting contaminated batteries to the country of origin of the producer.
* Due to the sensitivity of explosives detection devices to these batteries and the need to move them in several countries, Mossad, in cooperation with vidisco shell company, has moved the mentioned shipments.
* Vidisco company is an affiliated company of 8200 unit and today more than 84% of airports and seaports in the world use X-rays produced by this company in their security unit, which actually has a dedicated backdoor of 8200 unit and the Zionist regime It can exclude any shipment it considers in the countries using these devices and prevent the detection of sabotage
posted by Lanark at 7:23 AM on September 19 [11 favorites]
thanks to everyone posting information that helps provide context or leads to how this happened
me, I'm not contributing much other than to express I don't know.. disbelief. I'm that naive and sheltered I suppose, but this seems like a significant step pulling the world into darker times.
distractions, in my opinion:
- was this clean and targeted or dirty "but you have to hand it to them" fuck right off
- was this warranted. We are well on our way to rule-by-warlord so keep that line of inquiry going
- "it's not Israel it's the Israeli government" just in time for a delegation to land in Iraq to assure the millions of civilians that it wasn't all Americans, just Dick Cheney. Hold on to your precious thoughts indeed
What an absolute nightmare we're creating, well done us.
posted by ginger.beef at 7:43 AM on September 19 [11 favorites]
me, I'm not contributing much other than to express I don't know.. disbelief. I'm that naive and sheltered I suppose, but this seems like a significant step pulling the world into darker times.
distractions, in my opinion:
- was this clean and targeted or dirty "but you have to hand it to them" fuck right off
- was this warranted. We are well on our way to rule-by-warlord so keep that line of inquiry going
- "it's not Israel it's the Israeli government" just in time for a delegation to land in Iraq to assure the millions of civilians that it wasn't all Americans, just Dick Cheney. Hold on to your precious thoughts indeed
What an absolute nightmare we're creating, well done us.
posted by ginger.beef at 7:43 AM on September 19 [11 favorites]
BREAKING: Hezbollah leader says pager attack crossed a ‘red line’ and vows to retaliate against Israel [AP]
posted by mazola at 8:20 AM on September 19 [3 favorites]
posted by mazola at 8:20 AM on September 19 [3 favorites]
re: Telex. It's generally a reliable source, especially if it's about digging up facts.
posted by kmt at 8:23 AM on September 19 [2 favorites]
posted by kmt at 8:23 AM on September 19 [2 favorites]
How Israel Built a Modern-Day Trojan Horse: Exploding Pagers
The Israeli government did not tamper with the Hezbollah devices that exploded, defense and intelligence officials say. It manufactured them as part of an elaborate ruse.posted by kirkaracha at 8:27 AM on September 19 [5 favorites]
...
By all appearances, B.A.C. Consulting was a Hungary-based company that was under contract to produce the devices on behalf of a Taiwanese company, Gold Apollo. In fact, it was part of an Israeli front, according to three intelligence officers briefed on the operation. They said at least two other shell companies were created as well to mask the real identities of the people creating the pagers: Israeli intelligence officers.
Not ascribing credence, but I've seen people point out that the timeline of the phasing out programme (eta: at AUBMC) coincided with the arrival of the new pager shipment.
Wait, that doesn't make sense either. Why start using the booby trapped pagers five months ago (or whatever the timeline is) and only then transition everyone to WebEx over a period of months, during which at any point they might be triggered? It's not like the timeline for blowing them up was known by anyone in advance.
posted by BungaDunga at 8:40 AM on September 19 [1 favorite]
Wait, that doesn't make sense either. Why start using the booby trapped pagers five months ago (or whatever the timeline is) and only then transition everyone to WebEx over a period of months, during which at any point they might be triggered? It's not like the timeline for blowing them up was known by anyone in advance.
posted by BungaDunga at 8:40 AM on September 19 [1 favorite]
How Israel Built a Modern-Day Trojan Horse
ctrl+f "international law", "law of war", "violation", no results.
The way the tone of all the mainstream US media coverage I've seen on this so far is massively slanted and very "wow, such ingenuity, what brilliance, clever tactic" with no mention whatever of the fact that Israel is committing very blatant war crimes is honestly kind of disgusting.
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 8:43 AM on September 19 [29 favorites]
ctrl+f "international law", "law of war", "violation", no results.
The way the tone of all the mainstream US media coverage I've seen on this so far is massively slanted and very "wow, such ingenuity, what brilliance, clever tactic" with no mention whatever of the fact that Israel is committing very blatant war crimes is honestly kind of disgusting.
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 8:43 AM on September 19 [29 favorites]
Why start using the booby trapped pagers five months ago (or whatever the timeline is) and only then transition everyone to WebEx over a period of months, during which at any point they might be triggered? It's not like the timeline for blowing them up was known by anyone in advance.
It doesn't hang together* even in the original meaning of the conspiracy theory, which is that the transition was meant to or used to guarantee that at least the staff there gets clean pagers, not so much they had booby trapped ones to start with. The idea being them having pagers that wouldn't encourage them to get another one.
*It's still too clean and expansive of a claim - and unless someone actually correlated the casualty count with their work affiliations it's hearsay. My personal bias is against believing the IDF is as intelligent as they like to claim, when it comes to that stage of distribution.
posted by cendawanita at 8:58 AM on September 19 [4 favorites]
It doesn't hang together* even in the original meaning of the conspiracy theory, which is that the transition was meant to or used to guarantee that at least the staff there gets clean pagers, not so much they had booby trapped ones to start with. The idea being them having pagers that wouldn't encourage them to get another one.
*It's still too clean and expansive of a claim - and unless someone actually correlated the casualty count with their work affiliations it's hearsay. My personal bias is against believing the IDF is as intelligent as they like to claim, when it comes to that stage of distribution.
posted by cendawanita at 8:58 AM on September 19 [4 favorites]
Nasrallah told his audience that Hezbollah had received messages that the goal of the Israeli operation was to force the group to cease its military operations in solidarity with Gaza. Hezbollah has said it will not stop firing missiles and drones at Israel until it ends its war against Hamas. “No matter which future awaits the region — the resistance in Lebanon will not stop supporting and backing the people of Gaza,” Nasrallah reiterated.
posted by gwint at 8:59 AM on September 19 [4 favorites]
posted by gwint at 8:59 AM on September 19 [4 favorites]
So, TL;DR - status quo as far as Hezbollah is concerned re: theatres of war. Israel isn't getting its regional war, and maybe will face a reenergized enemy (even as the rest of Lebanon suffers from telco terrorism trauma) due to existing custom of cell-lead tactics.
I need to check the Navy Times if any major movements of carriers proved me wrong.
posted by cendawanita at 10:06 AM on September 19 [4 favorites]
I need to check the Navy Times if any major movements of carriers proved me wrong.
posted by cendawanita at 10:06 AM on September 19 [4 favorites]
Many of my American friends are choosing to engage with this by focusing on how clever or cool or innovative the Israelis were in inventing a new mode of assassination. Like I said before, that is a psychopathic reaction. But it is also one I sort of share. I take it as evidence of their (and my) relative lack of contact with actual people in Israel, Lebanon, and Syria.
posted by Nelson at 10:21 AM on September 19 [9 favorites]
posted by Nelson at 10:21 AM on September 19 [9 favorites]
Wired: "Your Phone Won't Be the Next Exploding Pager"
tl;dr: The writers say most current phones don't have a lot of space to add anything like an explosive, and if adversaries added a battery including explosives, it might compromise function to the extent that the target takes their phone in for service or otherwise looks into the issue. 🤷🏻♀️
posted by limeonaire at 10:38 AM on September 19 [5 favorites]
tl;dr: The writers say most current phones don't have a lot of space to add anything like an explosive, and if adversaries added a battery including explosives, it might compromise function to the extent that the target takes their phone in for service or otherwise looks into the issue. 🤷🏻♀️
posted by limeonaire at 10:38 AM on September 19 [5 favorites]
I take it as evidence of their (and my) relative lack of contact with actual people
It's also probably due to some level of racism/anti-Arab prejudice (Israelis being largely perceived as "white" by Americans, while Arabs are a distinct Other whose Otherness has been amplified by 20+ years of War on Terror propaganda that paints them as potential terrorists motivated principally by antisemitism and a hatred of FreedomⓇ).
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 10:41 AM on September 19 [13 favorites]
It's also probably due to some level of racism/anti-Arab prejudice (Israelis being largely perceived as "white" by Americans, while Arabs are a distinct Other whose Otherness has been amplified by 20+ years of War on Terror propaganda that paints them as potential terrorists motivated principally by antisemitism and a hatred of FreedomⓇ).
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 10:41 AM on September 19 [13 favorites]
As a counterpoint on "this isn't likely to be feasible in phones", Bunnie Huang (previously linked in a few FPPs for their familiarity/expertise with supply chain manufacturing) details how easy it would be to sub in a PETN layer into the common 'lithium pouch' design of battery: Turning Everyday Gadgets Into Bombs is a Bad Idea
Such a sheet could be inserted into the battery fold-and-stack process, after the first fold is made (or, with some effort, perhaps PETN could be incorporated into the spacer polymer itself – but let’s assume for now it’s just a drop-in sheet, which is easy to execute and likely effective). This would have the effect of making one of the cathode/anode pairs inactive, reducing the battery capacity, but only by a small amount: only one layer out of at least 10 layers is affected, thus reducing capacity by 10% or less. This may be well within the manufacturing tolerance of an inexpensive battery pack; alternatively, the cell could have an extra layer added to it to compensate for the capacity loss, with a very minor increase in the pack height (0.2mm or so, about the thickness of a sheet of paper – within the “swelling tolerance” of a battery pack).[...]
Thus, I would posit that a lithium battery constructed with a PETN layer inside is largely undetectable: no visual inspection can see it, and no surface analytical method can detect it. I don’t know off-hand of a low-cost, high-throughput X-ray method that could detect it. A high-end CT machine could pick out the PETN layer, but it’d cost around a million dollars for one machine and scan times are around a half hour – not practical for i.e. airport security or high throughput customs screening.[...]
However, the NTC can also be used as a one-wire communication bus: the controller IC on the protection circuit can readily sample the voltage on the NTC wire. Normally, the NTC has some constant positive bias applied to it; but if the NTC is connected to ground in a unique pattern, that can serve as a coded trigger to detonate.posted by CrystalDave at 12:01 PM on September 19 [17 favorites]
The entirety of such a circuit could conceivably be implemented using an off-the-shelf microcontroller, such as the Microchip/Atmel Attiny 85/V, a TSSOP-8 device that would look perfectly at-home on a battery protection PCB, yet contains an on-board oscillator and sufficient code space such that it could decode a trigger pattern.
If the battery charger is integrated into the main MCU – which it often is in highly cost-reduced products such as pagers and walkie-talkies – the trigger sequence can be delivered to the battery with no detectable modification to the target device. Every circuit trace and component would be where it’s supposed to be, and the MCU would be an authentic, stock MCU.
Wired: "Your Phone Won't Be the Next Exploding Pager"
Assinine of Wired to take a categorical stance (are pager shares falling?). Bomb-making is all about innovation .. and problems are just challenges for designers.
My grandfather was an arms designer but as a profession it erodes the soul. Designing destruction is so easy (and so so profitable) compared with designing for life.
posted by unearthed at 12:48 PM on September 19 [5 favorites]
Assinine of Wired to take a categorical stance (are pager shares falling?). Bomb-making is all about innovation .. and problems are just challenges for designers.
My grandfather was an arms designer but as a profession it erodes the soul. Designing destruction is so easy (and so so profitable) compared with designing for life.
posted by unearthed at 12:48 PM on September 19 [5 favorites]
Israel is a terrorist state, built on a racist ideology.
We will only see more and more depravity as long as Biden, Harris, Trump, and almost the entire Congress keeps propping up this monster of a totally illegitimate nation based on ethnic hatred and lies.
If my language sounds extreme to you, it's because you've been conditioned your entire life to avoid these kinds of frank discussions.
It's time to stop pretending that Israel is anything other than a pariah state whose only unified goal has always been ethnic purity. It will only worsen the more the US pretends this isn't true.
posted by chaz at 1:23 PM on September 19 [10 favorites]
We will only see more and more depravity as long as Biden, Harris, Trump, and almost the entire Congress keeps propping up this monster of a totally illegitimate nation based on ethnic hatred and lies.
If my language sounds extreme to you, it's because you've been conditioned your entire life to avoid these kinds of frank discussions.
It's time to stop pretending that Israel is anything other than a pariah state whose only unified goal has always been ethnic purity. It will only worsen the more the US pretends this isn't true.
posted by chaz at 1:23 PM on September 19 [10 favorites]
Many of my American friends are choosing to engage with this by focusing on how clever or cool or innovative the Israelis were in inventing a new mode of assassination. Like I said before, that is a psychopathic reaction.
The film Oppenheimer grossed a billion dollars.
posted by gwint at 1:26 PM on September 19 [6 favorites]
The film Oppenheimer grossed a billion dollars.
posted by gwint at 1:26 PM on September 19 [6 favorites]
> inventing a new mode of assassination
There is prior art. Exploding cell phones also featured in the recent Awkwafina/John Cena movie Jackpot! which I had just watched a few days before this attack made the news, which was a very strange "what is reality" moment.
General restraint, international norms, the fact that this is explicitly against the law, and the fact that it typically would not advance any major strategic aims, are why we haven't seen it before. I'm sure lots of people have floated "why don't we put a bomb in our enemies' pagers/electric toothbrushes" etc before and nobody did it because it's somehow more unsavory than just dropping a bomb on them from 50,000 ft. It takes the most moral army in the world to actually do it.
posted by dis_integration at 2:08 PM on September 19 [6 favorites]
There is prior art. Exploding cell phones also featured in the recent Awkwafina/John Cena movie Jackpot! which I had just watched a few days before this attack made the news, which was a very strange "what is reality" moment.
General restraint, international norms, the fact that this is explicitly against the law, and the fact that it typically would not advance any major strategic aims, are why we haven't seen it before. I'm sure lots of people have floated "why don't we put a bomb in our enemies' pagers/electric toothbrushes" etc before and nobody did it because it's somehow more unsavory than just dropping a bomb on them from 50,000 ft. It takes the most moral army in the world to actually do it.
posted by dis_integration at 2:08 PM on September 19 [6 favorites]
Literal supervillain shit, good lord.
posted by Sebmojo at 2:18 PM on September 19 [4 favorites]
posted by Sebmojo at 2:18 PM on September 19 [4 favorites]
Anyone with more familiarity to comment how far we can take Telex's reporting?
A Shaker of salt. first, I'll assume you've checked on US carrier deployments by this comment. Yeah, it's mostly routine, the fleet, esp. the TR need port time, almost all do. The recall has nothing to do with Bibi playing Halloween 2.
as far as the reporting, it's one more piece of information, as to its credibility that'll have to be cross examined and you know this as well as I do. Side issue or project, for gaza, was the water situation. for this situation I'm going to try to dig through some chaff and find a little bit of Wheat and a few posters have already provided a lot of good links. So, the tradecraft involved can rarly lead to suspects this is been the case in many, well a few cases, the reporter Khosaggi, Dubai 2010. I used the OSS manual because they used a lot of terror against the Nazis. did this make America a terrorist state aside from the fire bombings in Europe and the Pacific, that's debatable but the reaction to the OSS shortly after the war would indicate that the OSS went way too far and had two far too many crazy missions planned like eradiating German soil.this was a 3 prong assault, the use of terrorr and a disruption of SIGNT. this could be indicated by two communication devices being targeted for for destruction and the follow-up assumption that many more devices will be tossed or reordered and not just in Lebanon. the third is a geopolitical message from Israel to its enemies and its allies that it's going to do whatever it wants too regardless. I personally may have a this is pretty clever when it comes to things like Jewel thefts but not this, clever would have been having all the pagers and walkie talkies just go dead and a big :-) on it. and as usual, this case has more questions than verifiable data at this point. also one more point, the Lion Massoud was killed by an explosive device installed into a camera to be used in an interview some 30 hours before the attacks on September 11th.
posted by clavdivs at 2:22 PM on September 19 [6 favorites]
A Shaker of salt. first, I'll assume you've checked on US carrier deployments by this comment. Yeah, it's mostly routine, the fleet, esp. the TR need port time, almost all do. The recall has nothing to do with Bibi playing Halloween 2.
as far as the reporting, it's one more piece of information, as to its credibility that'll have to be cross examined and you know this as well as I do. Side issue or project, for gaza, was the water situation. for this situation I'm going to try to dig through some chaff and find a little bit of Wheat and a few posters have already provided a lot of good links. So, the tradecraft involved can rarly lead to suspects this is been the case in many, well a few cases, the reporter Khosaggi, Dubai 2010. I used the OSS manual because they used a lot of terror against the Nazis. did this make America a terrorist state aside from the fire bombings in Europe and the Pacific, that's debatable but the reaction to the OSS shortly after the war would indicate that the OSS went way too far and had two far too many crazy missions planned like eradiating German soil.this was a 3 prong assault, the use of terrorr and a disruption of SIGNT. this could be indicated by two communication devices being targeted for for destruction and the follow-up assumption that many more devices will be tossed or reordered and not just in Lebanon. the third is a geopolitical message from Israel to its enemies and its allies that it's going to do whatever it wants too regardless. I personally may have a this is pretty clever when it comes to things like Jewel thefts but not this, clever would have been having all the pagers and walkie talkies just go dead and a big :-) on it. and as usual, this case has more questions than verifiable data at this point. also one more point, the Lion Massoud was killed by an explosive device installed into a camera to be used in an interview some 30 hours before the attacks on September 11th.
posted by clavdivs at 2:22 PM on September 19 [6 favorites]
Coming soon: We feel threatened and that’s why these heads of Hezbollah sympathizers are up on these pikes.
posted by caviar2d2 at 3:31 PM on September 19 [4 favorites]
posted by caviar2d2 at 3:31 PM on September 19 [4 favorites]
Over on PRI The World they come so close to getting it
Carolyn Beeler: How unusual is it for a nation state as opposed to a terrorist group to turn something like pagers and walkie talkies into explosive devices?posted by Nelson at 3:44 PM on September 19 [4 favorites]
Richard Forno: It's certainly an innovative approach. Normally we do see terrorists taking advantage of every day technologies. ... It's not unfathomable that a nation state would use these techniques...
The recall has nothing to do with Bibi playing Halloween 2.
As a point of order, you're thinking of Halloween III. Halloween II has Michael Myers attack a hospital, which...well, anyway.
posted by kittens for breakfast at 4:31 PM on September 19 [8 favorites]
As a point of order, you're thinking of Halloween III. Halloween II has Michael Myers attack a hospital, which...well, anyway.
posted by kittens for breakfast at 4:31 PM on September 19 [8 favorites]
A New Era in Sabotage: Turning Ordinary Devices Into Grenades, on a Mass Scale (NYTimes Archive Link)
The presumed Israeli sabotage of hundreds or thousands of pagers, walkie-talkies and other wireless devices used by Hezbollah has taken the murky art of electronic sabotage to new and frightening heights. This time the targeted devices were kept in trouser pockets, on belts, in the kitchen. Ordinary communication devices were turned into miniature grenades.posted by Winnie the Proust at 5:15 PM on September 19 [8 favorites]
And while the target was Hezbollah fighters, the victims were anyone standing around, including children. Lebanese authorities say 11 people died and more than 2,700 were injured in Tuesday’s attack. On Wednesday, at least 20 more people were killed and 450 injured in a second round of attacks with exploding walkie-talkies.
There is reason to fear where this attack on Hezbollah fighters might go next. The history of such sabotage is that once a new threshold is crossed, it becomes available to everyone.
...
“This might well be the first and frightening glimpse of a world in which ultimately no electronic device, from our cellphones to thermostats, can ever be fully trusted,” Glenn Gerstell, the general counsel of the National Security Agency for five critical years as the cyberwars heated up, said on Wednesday.
“We’ve already seen Russia and North Korea unleash cyberweapons over which they had no control, which indiscriminately damaged random computers around the globe,” he said. “Could other personal and household devices be next?”
If Mr. Gerstell is right, it raises the question of whether these attacks, widely attributed to Israel’s intelligence services, were worth the price in our shared sense of vulnerability. The explosions had little strategic purpose. As one Western diplomat with long experience dealing with the Middle East said, they were hardly about to force Hezbollah’s leaders to give up a cause they have battled over for four decades.
Well, it sounds like it was both evil and dumb. Masterful gambit, sirs.
posted by kittens for breakfast at 5:20 PM on September 19 [10 favorites]
posted by kittens for breakfast at 5:20 PM on September 19 [10 favorites]
d'oh
or the producer/director, legendary Moustapha al Akkad and many Palestinian intelligence and military personnel killed in the 2005 Amman bombings. he produced most of the Halloween films and directed The Lion in the desert. which drew much controversy at the time. The attack considered ordered by Zarqawi and partial subject of Wright's, The Master Plan'.
posted by clavdivs at 5:30 PM on September 19 [3 favorites]
or the producer/director, legendary Moustapha al Akkad and many Palestinian intelligence and military personnel killed in the 2005 Amman bombings. he produced most of the Halloween films and directed The Lion in the desert. which drew much controversy at the time. The attack considered ordered by Zarqawi and partial subject of Wright's, The Master Plan'.
posted by clavdivs at 5:30 PM on September 19 [3 favorites]
Ahh, I'm thankful and sad at once that Bunnie Huang wrote about this and how similar attacks might be orchestrated. Wired's take felt tech-boosterish, which is the norm for them. But I didn't have enough hardware knowledge to say how superficial their analysis really was (though it felt a bit hand-wavey). Sigh.
posted by limeonaire at 6:34 PM on September 19 [3 favorites]
posted by limeonaire at 6:34 PM on September 19 [3 favorites]
The recall has nothing to do with Bibi playing Halloween 2.
As a point of order, you're thinking of Halloween III. Halloween II has Michael Myers attack a hospital, which...well, anyway.
So basically overall, Israel's government is following the Halloween playbook. Great. Good to know.
And yet Michael Myers' acts do not meet the criteria for war crimes, for he is not at war and is but a fighter, not a soldier of a legitimate, acknowledged nation-state or signatory of the Geneva Conventions. Yep.
posted by limeonaire at 6:43 PM on September 19 [5 favorites]
As a point of order, you're thinking of Halloween III. Halloween II has Michael Myers attack a hospital, which...well, anyway.
So basically overall, Israel's government is following the Halloween playbook. Great. Good to know.
And yet Michael Myers' acts do not meet the criteria for war crimes, for he is not at war and is but a fighter, not a soldier of a legitimate, acknowledged nation-state or signatory of the Geneva Conventions. Yep.
posted by limeonaire at 6:43 PM on September 19 [5 favorites]
The recall has nothing to do with Bibi playing Halloween 2.
Just to clarify for me: I also didn't mean to imply that - rather that if anything the placement of the carriers wound down because though it was initially for extraordinary circumstances the situation is either under control or they have recalibrated the status quo (which seems to accede to Houthis dominating the Red Sea; backgrounder that the Navy Times recently did a listing of all the known instances of, uh, what's the plural for fracas?) but a status quo with fewer assets wouldn't be agreeable for a scenario that would like to keep wartime tempo at highest possible register. "Use it or lose it" is the current provided justification - I'm putting a pin if this attempt to lower the temp would eventually crop up as another incitement in the great and intelligent minds of Israeli military.
posted by cendawanita at 6:53 PM on September 19 [4 favorites]
Just to clarify for me: I also didn't mean to imply that - rather that if anything the placement of the carriers wound down because though it was initially for extraordinary circumstances the situation is either under control or they have recalibrated the status quo (which seems to accede to Houthis dominating the Red Sea; backgrounder that the Navy Times recently did a listing of all the known instances of, uh, what's the plural for fracas?) but a status quo with fewer assets wouldn't be agreeable for a scenario that would like to keep wartime tempo at highest possible register. "Use it or lose it" is the current provided justification - I'm putting a pin if this attempt to lower the temp would eventually crop up as another incitement in the great and intelligent minds of Israeli military.
posted by cendawanita at 6:53 PM on September 19 [4 favorites]
The explosions had little strategic purpose. As one Western diplomat with long experience dealing with the Middle East said, they were hardly about to force Hezbollah’s leaders to give up a cause they have battled over for four decades.
With what I just said in mind, then it may be time to rearrange what we perceive to be their military priorities - less Hezb, more US/Western arms (recall that the spigot is being cut off, even if unevenly). Unfortunately the brown people of the region just won't act the way the demonization and racial stereotyping per political and pop cultures have claimed that they would. In the meantime, last week I saw an Israeli account shared that there's been 7 suicides in Israel in the last month alone, because of the apocalyptic environment fomented in the country. If you can't care for non-Jewish Arabs and non-Israelis, then care for those folks, I guess.
posted by cendawanita at 6:58 PM on September 19 [5 favorites]
With what I just said in mind, then it may be time to rearrange what we perceive to be their military priorities - less Hezb, more US/Western arms (recall that the spigot is being cut off, even if unevenly). Unfortunately the brown people of the region just won't act the way the demonization and racial stereotyping per political and pop cultures have claimed that they would. In the meantime, last week I saw an Israeli account shared that there's been 7 suicides in Israel in the last month alone, because of the apocalyptic environment fomented in the country. If you can't care for non-Jewish Arabs and non-Israelis, then care for those folks, I guess.
posted by cendawanita at 6:58 PM on September 19 [5 favorites]
Awesome article by Bunnie Huang, thanks CrystalDave. We'll end up having background checks for flights after the US, Russia, or someone else normalizes this weapon type, instead of just requiring that phon batteries be removable. Interestingly, chemical explosives reach only about twice as powerful as TNT.
I loved Bunnie Huang's 36c3 talk Open Source is Insufficient to Solve Trust Problems in Hardware, where he introduces betrusted, a personal device designed for inspection, and resistance to supply chain attacks.
posted by jeffburdges at 7:57 PM on September 19 [3 favorites]
I loved Bunnie Huang's 36c3 talk Open Source is Insufficient to Solve Trust Problems in Hardware, where he introduces betrusted, a personal device designed for inspection, and resistance to supply chain attacks.
posted by jeffburdges at 7:57 PM on September 19 [3 favorites]
(shared the relevant news reports in the genocide and US/Middle East threads, but WSJ reporting that the ceasefire process is basically dead - or if you like to still read it in good faith: "US believes Gaza ceasefire deal unlikely in Biden's term".)
posted by cendawanita at 8:28 PM on September 19 [3 favorites]
posted by cendawanita at 8:28 PM on September 19 [3 favorites]
Guardian's own reporting of the facts we have to date. Of interest to me:
But however sophisticated the planning, the reality is that many civilians were harmed as the pagers exploded. One video captured a pager exploding in a grocery store; others showed adults and children in hospital with severe penetrating traumatic injuries to their heads, bodies and limbs. Human Rights Watch, a monitoring group, said human rights law “prohibits the use of booby traps … precisely to avoid putting civilians at grave risk”.
In the immediate aftermath, Yossi Melman, a co-author of Spies Against Armageddon and other books on Israeli intelligence, asked “why would you waste a valuable intelligence asset that could be used in a more urgent time?” amid fears of an all-out war between Israel and Hezbollah. But it appears Israel has been wanting to step up its attack on the militant group, two days after its security cabinet said allowing 60,000 displaced people to return safely to their homes in the north of the country was now a war aim.
posted by cendawanita at 8:31 PM on September 19 [7 favorites]
But however sophisticated the planning, the reality is that many civilians were harmed as the pagers exploded. One video captured a pager exploding in a grocery store; others showed adults and children in hospital with severe penetrating traumatic injuries to their heads, bodies and limbs. Human Rights Watch, a monitoring group, said human rights law “prohibits the use of booby traps … precisely to avoid putting civilians at grave risk”.
In the immediate aftermath, Yossi Melman, a co-author of Spies Against Armageddon and other books on Israeli intelligence, asked “why would you waste a valuable intelligence asset that could be used in a more urgent time?” amid fears of an all-out war between Israel and Hezbollah. But it appears Israel has been wanting to step up its attack on the militant group, two days after its security cabinet said allowing 60,000 displaced people to return safely to their homes in the north of the country was now a war aim.
posted by cendawanita at 8:31 PM on September 19 [7 favorites]
CNN: Father of American hostage held by Hamas says Lebanon attacks treat ‘agony with more agony’
Biden doesn't care, methinks, it's not like he's the one campaigning for office.
posted by cendawanita at 9:46 PM on September 19 [4 favorites]
Biden doesn't care, methinks, it's not like he's the one campaigning for office.
posted by cendawanita at 9:46 PM on September 19 [4 favorites]
the question of whether these attacks, widely attributed to Israel’s intelligence services, were worth the price in our shared sense of vulnerability
to which the screamingly obvious answer, given that Israel's entire rationale for existence is the desire for a safe haven, is No. No, they were not.
All that these attacks have done is bring intelligence services in general, and Israel's in particular, even closer to the disrepute in which I've personally long held the whole stinking lot of them.
War is a racket, and boys and their fucking toys will be the death of us.
posted by flabdablet at 4:20 AM on September 20 [6 favorites]
to which the screamingly obvious answer, given that Israel's entire rationale for existence is the desire for a safe haven, is No. No, they were not.
All that these attacks have done is bring intelligence services in general, and Israel's in particular, even closer to the disrepute in which I've personally long held the whole stinking lot of them.
War is a racket, and boys and their fucking toys will be the death of us.
posted by flabdablet at 4:20 AM on September 20 [6 favorites]
We can now expect the makers of consumer electronics to start marketing "extra secure manufacturing process" or "guaranteed free of C-4" the same way food corporations market their product as "organic" or "free range."
And we can also expect that the manufacturers of consumer electronics will offer "enhanced security scans" (which do little or nothing) on a subscription basis, the same way banks and loan providers offer "personal information protection" and "enhanced hacker security" to their customers. For a fee. For something they should be doing by default anyway.
posted by JohnFromGR at 5:35 AM on September 20 [5 favorites]
And we can also expect that the manufacturers of consumer electronics will offer "enhanced security scans" (which do little or nothing) on a subscription basis, the same way banks and loan providers offer "personal information protection" and "enhanced hacker security" to their customers. For a fee. For something they should be doing by default anyway.
posted by JohnFromGR at 5:35 AM on September 20 [5 favorites]
Biden doesn't care,
The most honest thing Biden ever said was: "Give me a break -- No, no, I have no empathy for it, give me a break."
Take the man at his word. He has no empathy for anyone except his immediate family. Never has, never will, and the claims that he's some super empathic guy are clearly just propaganda and BS.
While I have no doubt that Harris will continue supporting the ongoing genocide until Israel succeeds in it's efforts to kill or evict every single Palestinian in Greater Israel, she does at least seem to recognize that it's BAD for Israel to murder innocent civilians. Obviously not bad enough for her to actually do anything of course.
On the tech side, the ubiquity of cell phones may turn this into a school shooting situation in which accepting the risk your phone might explode because some terrorist government decided it wanted to for the lulz becomes the new normal.
People put up with a lot at airports in the name of security theater, but I don't see people giving up their phones, maybe 10 years ago, certainly 20 years ago. But not today. If Israel, or Putin, or Kim Jong Un, or the next US President decide to blow up some phones and it takes down a plane we'll get a moment of silence but it will never be the right time to talk about taking action to keep state terrorists from turning phones into bombs.
Just another thing, whatareyagonnado?
posted by sotonohito at 6:55 AM on September 20 [9 favorites]
The most honest thing Biden ever said was: "Give me a break -- No, no, I have no empathy for it, give me a break."
Take the man at his word. He has no empathy for anyone except his immediate family. Never has, never will, and the claims that he's some super empathic guy are clearly just propaganda and BS.
While I have no doubt that Harris will continue supporting the ongoing genocide until Israel succeeds in it's efforts to kill or evict every single Palestinian in Greater Israel, she does at least seem to recognize that it's BAD for Israel to murder innocent civilians. Obviously not bad enough for her to actually do anything of course.
On the tech side, the ubiquity of cell phones may turn this into a school shooting situation in which accepting the risk your phone might explode because some terrorist government decided it wanted to for the lulz becomes the new normal.
People put up with a lot at airports in the name of security theater, but I don't see people giving up their phones, maybe 10 years ago, certainly 20 years ago. But not today. If Israel, or Putin, or Kim Jong Un, or the next US President decide to blow up some phones and it takes down a plane we'll get a moment of silence but it will never be the right time to talk about taking action to keep state terrorists from turning phones into bombs.
Just another thing, whatareyagonnado?
posted by sotonohito at 6:55 AM on September 20 [9 favorites]
1983, the Sean Penn movie Bad Boys, featured a booby trapped boombox.
posted by funkaspuck at 8:43 AM on September 20
posted by funkaspuck at 8:43 AM on September 20
'precision strike' returns (Al-Monitor live updates). Nine confirmed deaths. War has expanded outside Palestine. I was out the whole day. Has Biden said anything?
posted by cendawanita at 9:02 AM on September 20 [4 favorites]
posted by cendawanita at 9:02 AM on September 20 [4 favorites]
Has Biden said anything?
Not a peep, he's leaving all the commentary to people like Miller and Kirby. (Which seems vaguely irresponsible, honestly; Obama would've made a statement, by now. Hell, Ronald Reagan probably would've made a statement by now.)
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 9:21 AM on September 20 [5 favorites]
Not a peep, he's leaving all the commentary to people like Miller and Kirby. (Which seems vaguely irresponsible, honestly; Obama would've made a statement, by now. Hell, Ronald Reagan probably would've made a statement by now.)
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 9:21 AM on September 20 [5 favorites]
Israel planned pager device explosions for 15 years, US intelligence source says
the wording of that articles seems vauge, it's as if this operation was planned 15 years ago to switch the pagers. I think they mean 15 years ago, set up a supply and logistical intelligence operation for interdiction and manufacturing of electronic devices.
15 years kind of stands out but I found this.
For regular communications back to Lebanon, “Kourani provided Fadi with the name of a particular childhood friend of Kourani, and Fadi established one or more email accounts using that name for purposes of operational communications.” Also, “Kourani deleted electronic communications from Fadi immediately after reviewing them.” Interestingly, “in approximately 2011 or 2012, Fadi instructed Kourani not to use existing operational email accounts or the IJO [Unit 910] Pager, as the IJO assessed that these communications selectors had been compromised. Kourani and Fadi did not use email to communicate regarding IJO operations after approximately 2012.”
However, coded email was also the means that both Samer el Debek and Alexi Saab used to communicate with Hezbollah members from overseas. El Debek said “[Hezbollah] gave him an email account to contact when he was away, and coded language to use in his emails to Hezbollah. He also said he was permitted to use any email account he wished to use to communicate with [Hezbollah] by email.”
Unit 910 members, like Ali Mohammed Kourani, observed elaborate communications protocols even when returning to Lebanon. He was advised that upon arrival in Beirut, he was to “call a telephone number associated with a pager (the “IJO Pager”) and provide a code that he understood was specific to him. After Kourani called the IJO pager, Fadi [his handler] would contact Kourani to set up an in-person meeting by calling a phone belonging to one of Kourani’s relatives.
I don't trust either sources very much and there's a lot of those smoke here but the timeline is interesting.
posted by clavdivs at 3:12 PM on September 20 [3 favorites]
the wording of that articles seems vauge, it's as if this operation was planned 15 years ago to switch the pagers. I think they mean 15 years ago, set up a supply and logistical intelligence operation for interdiction and manufacturing of electronic devices.
15 years kind of stands out but I found this.
For regular communications back to Lebanon, “Kourani provided Fadi with the name of a particular childhood friend of Kourani, and Fadi established one or more email accounts using that name for purposes of operational communications.” Also, “Kourani deleted electronic communications from Fadi immediately after reviewing them.” Interestingly, “in approximately 2011 or 2012, Fadi instructed Kourani not to use existing operational email accounts or the IJO [Unit 910] Pager, as the IJO assessed that these communications selectors had been compromised. Kourani and Fadi did not use email to communicate regarding IJO operations after approximately 2012.”
However, coded email was also the means that both Samer el Debek and Alexi Saab used to communicate with Hezbollah members from overseas. El Debek said “[Hezbollah] gave him an email account to contact when he was away, and coded language to use in his emails to Hezbollah. He also said he was permitted to use any email account he wished to use to communicate with [Hezbollah] by email.”
Unit 910 members, like Ali Mohammed Kourani, observed elaborate communications protocols even when returning to Lebanon. He was advised that upon arrival in Beirut, he was to “call a telephone number associated with a pager (the “IJO Pager”) and provide a code that he understood was specific to him. After Kourani called the IJO pager, Fadi [his handler] would contact Kourani to set up an in-person meeting by calling a phone belonging to one of Kourani’s relatives.
I don't trust either sources very much and there's a lot of those smoke here but the timeline is interesting.
posted by clavdivs at 3:12 PM on September 20 [3 favorites]
I... Don't know how to square this assertion with the realities of modern shipping plus the need to keep this within opsec limits without implicating a whole portfull of people.
Goods being held for 3 months at port due to legal / customs / tariff related issues - would be placed in an inactive warehouse that literally no one visits for maybe weeks at a time. As opposed to the regular high-traffic warehouse which sees a high volume of shipping and traffic.
I'm not saying it's trivial, but that it's at the least 10x easier than the theory that an active manufacturing production line was compromised. These have all sorts of quality control processes and checks and are humming with people.
Having worked in both warehouse operations where we had had stock we literally hadn't touched for 5 years, and a manufacturing production line. We had automated processes that sort of worked like the "defrag" function of old hard disks (before we went to SSDs) where the algorithm could predict low traffic goods and arrange for them to be stored in the old decrepit warehouse full of asbestos warning signs and zero automation right in the back corner of the site that no one goes to. The most high traffic goods go to the most modern warehouses on site with picking automation. Random thieves still somehow managed to steal stuff from our site despite physical barriers and a 24 hour security detail that patrols the perimeter at random times.
As per the size, the pagers are 7.3cm x 5cm x 2.7cm for a volume of 99cm3. Very conservatively assume the packaging (both individually, and cardboard for boxes of 100 each) adds 10% dead volume, you're at 108cm3. A standard Euro pallet is 120cm x 80cm x 220cm for a volume of 2,112,000 cm3.
This means you could put 19,482 pagers into a single Euro pallet.
The "battery contamination" theory from Handala is even more insane than compromising the manufacturer. You manufacture batteries with explosives in them, fine - but say the pager company buys a million batteries from you - how do you even control who they sell it to? Does this mean pagers in literally every country in the world right now are bombs, why haven't they blown up yet? How do you also infiltrate the software and wiring in the pager to ensure a wire lead connects to the explosives? Do Israeli companies not only manufacture the batteries, but also the wiring, and write the software? And also conveniently control 90% of x-ray security systems in the world as alleged so these could be shipped without being detected? Jews would literally have to control the entire world for this theory to be true, or the entire world would have to be united against Hezbollah and complicit in this plan.
Ah, so boycotting Israel as a shipping port not to mention other ports in the route too?
Unlikely this would help either as they certainly were not shipped via Israel... it had to be done with Israeli agents infiltrating a foreign port. Actually, if I was concerned that Israel would target my country, I would go a step further and ban the entry of any Israeli national as well as immediately expelling any Israelis in the country, since they are to be considered a security threat. Also, anyone with an Israeli passport stamp on their passport (indicating they had passed through Israel) would also be banned or expelled on suspicion of being a collaborator. Oh wait, Lebanon, Yemen, Syria, Saudi Arabia, Malaysia, and many other Muslim countries already do that today...
posted by xdvesper at 6:54 PM on September 20 [1 favorite]
Goods being held for 3 months at port due to legal / customs / tariff related issues - would be placed in an inactive warehouse that literally no one visits for maybe weeks at a time. As opposed to the regular high-traffic warehouse which sees a high volume of shipping and traffic.
I'm not saying it's trivial, but that it's at the least 10x easier than the theory that an active manufacturing production line was compromised. These have all sorts of quality control processes and checks and are humming with people.
Having worked in both warehouse operations where we had had stock we literally hadn't touched for 5 years, and a manufacturing production line. We had automated processes that sort of worked like the "defrag" function of old hard disks (before we went to SSDs) where the algorithm could predict low traffic goods and arrange for them to be stored in the old decrepit warehouse full of asbestos warning signs and zero automation right in the back corner of the site that no one goes to. The most high traffic goods go to the most modern warehouses on site with picking automation. Random thieves still somehow managed to steal stuff from our site despite physical barriers and a 24 hour security detail that patrols the perimeter at random times.
As per the size, the pagers are 7.3cm x 5cm x 2.7cm for a volume of 99cm3. Very conservatively assume the packaging (both individually, and cardboard for boxes of 100 each) adds 10% dead volume, you're at 108cm3. A standard Euro pallet is 120cm x 80cm x 220cm for a volume of 2,112,000 cm3.
This means you could put 19,482 pagers into a single Euro pallet.
The "battery contamination" theory from Handala is even more insane than compromising the manufacturer. You manufacture batteries with explosives in them, fine - but say the pager company buys a million batteries from you - how do you even control who they sell it to? Does this mean pagers in literally every country in the world right now are bombs, why haven't they blown up yet? How do you also infiltrate the software and wiring in the pager to ensure a wire lead connects to the explosives? Do Israeli companies not only manufacture the batteries, but also the wiring, and write the software? And also conveniently control 90% of x-ray security systems in the world as alleged so these could be shipped without being detected? Jews would literally have to control the entire world for this theory to be true, or the entire world would have to be united against Hezbollah and complicit in this plan.
Ah, so boycotting Israel as a shipping port not to mention other ports in the route too?
Unlikely this would help either as they certainly were not shipped via Israel... it had to be done with Israeli agents infiltrating a foreign port. Actually, if I was concerned that Israel would target my country, I would go a step further and ban the entry of any Israeli national as well as immediately expelling any Israelis in the country, since they are to be considered a security threat. Also, anyone with an Israeli passport stamp on their passport (indicating they had passed through Israel) would also be banned or expelled on suspicion of being a collaborator. Oh wait, Lebanon, Yemen, Syria, Saudi Arabia, Malaysia, and many other Muslim countries already do that today...
posted by xdvesper at 6:54 PM on September 20 [1 favorite]
Has Biden said anything?
oh hell no, Joe can't even collect the reward for the terrorist Aqil....7 million u.s. dollars. No, why would he condone someone who helped kill 100s of Americans.
posted by clavdivs at 7:02 PM on September 20
oh hell no, Joe can't even collect the reward for the terrorist Aqil....7 million u.s. dollars. No, why would he condone someone who helped kill 100s of Americans.
posted by clavdivs at 7:02 PM on September 20
I’m mad at the Biden admin about all this, but the prime actors here are the Israeli leadership and the racist settlers and the various loons who persist in the idea that Israel is some kind of holy land. It’s hard to criticize in the US, but I feel like pro-Israel Americans need to pick a loyalty. Arming Israel hurts America and the world. We should not be listening to dual citizens and religious extremists any more than we should base our Cuba policy on what butthurt rich Cuban expats think about that. Recusal is the word I’m looking for here. You don’t see me taking the side of the UK Brexit government because my family came from Wales. I’m American now.
posted by caviar2d2 at 7:10 PM on September 20 [5 favorites]
posted by caviar2d2 at 7:10 PM on September 20 [5 favorites]
Yes, my father burdened you with a heavy yoke, but I will make it heavier! My father controlled you with whips, but I will control you with scorpions!’
Israel has not officially taken responsibility for the pager attacks as has been standard practice. However, Gallant has described "a new phase of war" with the expansion of the war into Lebanon:
CBS calls it "targeted." Reuters calls it "heavy." BBC leaves the headline without interpretation. The last of such airstrikes in Lebanon was less than a month ago, and the previous rare major airstrike to hit Beirut a few weeks before that. There is precedence that a heavy handed ruler can harm a unified Jewish Israel. Could this be Netanyahu's Rehoboam moment?
Just a reminder "8. Annihilation of the adversary or a reign of terror cannot achieve this transformation." (1.-8. from, via infini)
posted by rubatan at 8:05 PM on September 20 [4 favorites]
Israel has not officially taken responsibility for the pager attacks as has been standard practice. However, Gallant has described "a new phase of war" with the expansion of the war into Lebanon:
BEIRUT (AP) — Israel launched a rare airstrike that killed a senior Hezbollah military official in a densely populated southern Beirut neighborhood on Friday. It was the deadliest such strike on Lebanon’s capital in decades, with Lebanese authorities reporting at least 14 people killed and dozens more wounded in the attack. {emphasis added}
CBS calls it "targeted." Reuters calls it "heavy." BBC leaves the headline without interpretation. The last of such airstrikes in Lebanon was less than a month ago, and the previous rare major airstrike to hit Beirut a few weeks before that. There is precedence that a heavy handed ruler can harm a unified Jewish Israel. Could this be Netanyahu's Rehoboam moment?
Just a reminder "8. Annihilation of the adversary or a reign of terror cannot achieve this transformation." (1.-8. from, via infini)
posted by rubatan at 8:05 PM on September 20 [4 favorites]
I'm not saying it's trivial, but that it's at the least 10x easier than the theory that an active manufacturing production line was compromised. These have all sorts of quality control processes and checks and are humming with people.
Likely or not, Mossad set up a front to license the pager brand for independent manufacture. Why bother with that if you're just intercepting the goods after production anyway?
As per the size, the pagers are 7.3cm x 5cm x 2.7cm for a volume of 99cm3. Very conservatively assume the packaging (both individually, and cardboard for boxes of 100 each) adds 10% dead volume, you're at 108cm3. A standard Euro pallet is 120cm x 80cm x 220cm for a volume of 2,112,000 cm3.
That's a very generous estimate. Per Amazon, another Apollo Gold pager comes in packaging of 12.19 x 8.1 x 4.7 cm = ~464cm3. Speaking for myself, I've never seen any electronics come in packaging with a total volume of 10% over the product volume, it's always a fast far greater increase. I've also never seen a euro pallet move real distance actually stacked 2.2m high in practice, with a good amount of warehouse experience. (You also need to consider each dimension individually not just divide volume by volume.) Nobody is fitting 19k pagers on a pallet, never mind a euro.
posted by Dysk at 10:24 PM on September 20 [6 favorites]
Likely or not, Mossad set up a front to license the pager brand for independent manufacture. Why bother with that if you're just intercepting the goods after production anyway?
As per the size, the pagers are 7.3cm x 5cm x 2.7cm for a volume of 99cm3. Very conservatively assume the packaging (both individually, and cardboard for boxes of 100 each) adds 10% dead volume, you're at 108cm3. A standard Euro pallet is 120cm x 80cm x 220cm for a volume of 2,112,000 cm3.
That's a very generous estimate. Per Amazon, another Apollo Gold pager comes in packaging of 12.19 x 8.1 x 4.7 cm = ~464cm3. Speaking for myself, I've never seen any electronics come in packaging with a total volume of 10% over the product volume, it's always a fast far greater increase. I've also never seen a euro pallet move real distance actually stacked 2.2m high in practice, with a good amount of warehouse experience. (You also need to consider each dimension individually not just divide volume by volume.) Nobody is fitting 19k pagers on a pallet, never mind a euro.
posted by Dysk at 10:24 PM on September 20 [6 favorites]
(Another pager [pdf] that is somewhat larger yes, with a per pallet unit count of 352. You could no doubt fit more of the Gold Apollo pagers on a pallet as they are a little smaller, but not two orders of magnitude more.)
posted by Dysk at 10:33 PM on September 20 [1 favorite]
posted by Dysk at 10:33 PM on September 20 [1 favorite]
Very conservatively assume the packaging (both individually, and cardboard for boxes of 100 each) adds 10% dead volume, you're at 108cm3
Also, if the total volume of the packaged product was only 10% greater than the product itself, each packaging dimension would have to be only [cube root(1.1)] or a hair over 3% bigger than the product dimension. I'm not sure that's physically possible unless you imagine they're being shipped packaged in only a single layer of thin shrink-wrap or something.
posted by Dysk at 12:17 AM on September 21 [4 favorites]
Also, if the total volume of the packaged product was only 10% greater than the product itself, each packaging dimension would have to be only [cube root(1.1)] or a hair over 3% bigger than the product dimension. I'm not sure that's physically possible unless you imagine they're being shipped packaged in only a single layer of thin shrink-wrap or something.
posted by Dysk at 12:17 AM on September 21 [4 favorites]
Gas Escaping From Sentient, Cardigan-Wearing Nappy Bin Mistakenly Transcribed And Published In The Australian
posted by flabdablet at 5:18 AM on September 21 [4 favorites]
Editors from the nation’s largest journalistic money pit are now investigating how that sound was converted into inch upon inch of newsprint dedicated to justifying the wholesale killing of dozens of adults and children in Lebanon under the moral justification that they, including the children, were terrorists.I think The Betoota Advocate has that wrong. Based on everything else I've ever heard him say, I think that probably was Greg Sheridan. Easy mistake to make, though.
News Corp has confirmed to The Advocate, via our crosstown rival The Betoota Bugle, that it’s understood the noise the gas made as it escaped from the nappy bin was mistaken for the opinion of The Australian’s foreign editor, Greg Sheridan.
posted by flabdablet at 5:18 AM on September 21 [4 favorites]
Israel’s Pager Bombs Have No Place in a Just War .
Don’t be fooled by the title. This article will make people on both sides mad. But perhaps we can all agree with the conclusion.
Don’t be fooled by the title. This article will make people on both sides mad. But perhaps we can all agree with the conclusion.
One war may be just and the other unjust, but today anyone who aims at continuing the fight must be condemned. The victims of the exploding pagers and walkie-talkies, the general amazement at what is possible in war today, the fear of what will come tomorrow — all this proves the necessity of a political solution.posted by Winnie the Proust at 8:46 AM on September 21
Above, adrienneleigh mentioned paramedics and first responders having pagers blow up. I've not found those reports via google, but nor did I try too hard. Anyways, searching found this..
Exploding pagers in Lebanon struck many people in the face — causing severe injuries, frequently to the eyes, but also some brain damage.
posted by jeffburdges at 3:58 PM on September 21 [2 favorites]
Exploding pagers in Lebanon struck many people in the face — causing severe injuries, frequently to the eyes, but also some brain damage.
posted by jeffburdges at 3:58 PM on September 21 [2 favorites]
Dysk - I totally agree with you that it's far simpler that Mossad created a front to license the pagers and just sold them directly to Hezbollah. The theory I was talking about was from earlier in the thread, in the Al-Jazeera article that said Hezbollah "suspects that it was during those three months that Israel managed to plant explosives in the devices" and how that was much more plausible than the idea that a legitimate manufacturing facility in Taiwan or Europe was compromised.
Just to close the loop on the packaging math -
The 352 per pallet product you linked has a volume of 13,650 cm3 per carton of 4, or 3,413cm3 per product, which implies the pallet is stacked up to 1.2m height, which seems reasonable. Versus the 464cm3 for the Amazon pager you linked, that's not "slightly" smaller, it's about 7x smaller... if we just take the ratios directly, that would imply roughly 2,600 of those 464cm3 pagers would fit into this same Euro pallet stacked 1.2m in height.
So you'd need roughly 2 pallets instead of 1 to get to 5,000 pagers.
Yes of course just taking a volume ratio rather than directly measuring the edges will be slightly inaccurate due to inefficiencies but it is likely to go the other way (the smaller pager being able to be packed more efficiently than the larger one) but it should be within plus minus 10% or so.
(Also I figured out the large difference in size the numbers we used - the specs available online for the pager Hezbollah purchased only show the pager without the holster and cradle, while the Amazon listing you provided has the holster and cradle which easily doubles the dimensions)
posted by xdvesper at 5:52 PM on September 21
Just to close the loop on the packaging math -
The 352 per pallet product you linked has a volume of 13,650 cm3 per carton of 4, or 3,413cm3 per product, which implies the pallet is stacked up to 1.2m height, which seems reasonable. Versus the 464cm3 for the Amazon pager you linked, that's not "slightly" smaller, it's about 7x smaller... if we just take the ratios directly, that would imply roughly 2,600 of those 464cm3 pagers would fit into this same Euro pallet stacked 1.2m in height.
So you'd need roughly 2 pallets instead of 1 to get to 5,000 pagers.
Yes of course just taking a volume ratio rather than directly measuring the edges will be slightly inaccurate due to inefficiencies but it is likely to go the other way (the smaller pager being able to be packed more efficiently than the larger one) but it should be within plus minus 10% or so.
(Also I figured out the large difference in size the numbers we used - the specs available online for the pager Hezbollah purchased only show the pager without the holster and cradle, while the Amazon listing you provided has the holster and cradle which easily doubles the dimensions)
posted by xdvesper at 5:52 PM on September 21
Also I figured out the large difference in size the numbers we used - the specs available online for the pager Hezbollah purchased only show the pager without the holster and cradle, while the Amazon listing you provided has the holster and cradle which easily doubles the dimensions
I'm not sure that's the case. The Amazon listing I linked also has the actual pager dimensions in the additional information description. It's listed at 2.9"(l) x 2"(w) x .75"(h) which is the same as your quoted dimensions. The numbers I used to calculate volume are the packaged product dimensions (shipping dimensions). The disconnect comes from the fact that packaging for products is normally substantially larger than the product itself, partly for space for potential accessories (e.g. battery may come packaged alongside rather than in the product, clips may be packaged alongside rather than attached, etc.), but just as much for product protection during shipping and handling. You can't just add ten percent to the volume of the product itself and assume that's anywhere near the actual unit footprint in shipping.
posted by Dysk at 6:12 PM on September 21 [3 favorites]
I'm not sure that's the case. The Amazon listing I linked also has the actual pager dimensions in the additional information description. It's listed at 2.9"(l) x 2"(w) x .75"(h) which is the same as your quoted dimensions. The numbers I used to calculate volume are the packaged product dimensions (shipping dimensions). The disconnect comes from the fact that packaging for products is normally substantially larger than the product itself, partly for space for potential accessories (e.g. battery may come packaged alongside rather than in the product, clips may be packaged alongside rather than attached, etc.), but just as much for product protection during shipping and handling. You can't just add ten percent to the volume of the product itself and assume that's anywhere near the actual unit footprint in shipping.
posted by Dysk at 6:12 PM on September 21 [3 favorites]
Israel has been fighting Iran's proxies since Hamas attacked in the South on Oct. 7, 2023 and Hezbollah immediately started attacking in the North. It's not the only country in the region to consider Iran's proxies a threat, however.
"One of the many important nuances of the Middle East conflicts is that most victims of Iran and its proxies and clients such as Hezbollah and Hamas are not Jews but Arabs.posted by Violet Blue at 9:27 PM on September 21 [1 favorite]
In the days following the explosions, Arabic-language social media have been full of memes of Hassan Nasrallah, the militant group's chief, with a blown-up backside; schadenfreude remarks of how Hezbollah got what it deserved; claims that the explosions were divine justice and songs praising the operation. In Northern Syria, soldiers even handed out sweets to passing cars to celebrate the "Hezbollah massacre."
This isn't the first time since the Iran-backed terrorist attack in Israel on Oct. 7 that Arabs have cheered on brazen operations—allegedly—pulled off by the Jewish state against Iran and its allies. Indeed, according to The Media Line, a U.S.-based independent news agency that reports on Arabic and Hebrew-language media, the Arab world largely favored the assassination of Hezbollah military commander Fuad Shukr in July and some Arab commentators even supported Israel's assassination of Hamas chief Ismail Haniyeh last month. When Israel bombed the Houthi-controlled Hodeida port in Yemen, Saudi and Yemeni journalists and social media users rejoiced."
I'd say that probably has more to do with the ongoing hostilities between the Sunni Arabs and Shia Iranians than it does with Hezbollah being perceived as especially threatening by the rest of the region.
posted by pattern juggler at 10:35 PM on September 21 [5 favorites]
posted by pattern juggler at 10:35 PM on September 21 [5 favorites]
It'd be really nice if, every time someone talks about "Iranian proxies", they also acknowledged that Israel is a US proxy.
posted by adrienneleigh at 11:31 PM on September 21 [15 favorites]
posted by adrienneleigh at 11:31 PM on September 21 [15 favorites]
Also that proxy != puppet.
Iran did not create Hezbollah, which coalesced from the assortment of resistance factions arising in response to Israel invading Lebanon again.
Both Hezbollah and the present Iranian Government are Shia Islamist outfits. Teheran clearly perceives maintaining a close relationship with Hezbollah's leadership, and supplying Hezbollah with arms, training, financing and diplomatic cover to align with its own interests. But the idea that Hezbollah's actions are dictated from Teheran is on par with the idea that Likud's are dictated from Washington. It's a mud map so crude as to be entirely misleading, and yet it appears to be all that the Greg Sheridans of this world can wrap their tiny minds around.
posted by flabdablet at 2:38 AM on September 22 [11 favorites]
Iran did not create Hezbollah, which coalesced from the assortment of resistance factions arising in response to Israel invading Lebanon again.
Both Hezbollah and the present Iranian Government are Shia Islamist outfits. Teheran clearly perceives maintaining a close relationship with Hezbollah's leadership, and supplying Hezbollah with arms, training, financing and diplomatic cover to align with its own interests. But the idea that Hezbollah's actions are dictated from Teheran is on par with the idea that Likud's are dictated from Washington. It's a mud map so crude as to be entirely misleading, and yet it appears to be all that the Greg Sheridans of this world can wrap their tiny minds around.
posted by flabdablet at 2:38 AM on September 22 [11 favorites]
Ah, the opinion pages of Newsweek, truly a source of thoughtful, considered pieces and not a treasure trove of far-right disinformation, Islamophobia, and Likudnik antisemitism aimed at the Jewish left. They certainly aren't the kind of place that regularly advocates for fascism and bigotry. Oh, wait:
Newsweek Embraces the Anti-Democracy Hard Right
Newsweek Embraces the Anti-Democracy Hard Right
Newsweek positioned political activist Josh Hammer to run their opinion pages during the runup to the 2020 presidential election, and since that time, the publication has taken a marked radical right turn by buoying extremists and promoting authoritarian leaders.Like, no joke, these folks actually pal around with terrorists: White Nationalists, Other Republicans Brace for ‘Total War’
Although opinion pages in ostensibly nonpartisan, mainstream publications promote political opinions, sometimes controversial ones, Newsweek stands alone among such brands in its willingness to elevate such figures as Jack Posobiec, known for promoting the Pizzagate disinformation campaign, and Dinesh D’Souza, whose film 2000 Mules researchers roundly debunked for spreading conspiracies about the 2020 election. Under Hammer’s leadership, Newsweek has also aired bigoted views, like appearing to call for the state to deny adults access to trans-affirming medical care and supporting a ban on all legal immigration into the U.S. They have also spread baseless conspiracies about COVID-19, with one of Hammer’s collaborators describing vaccines designed to fight the virus as a “bioweapon.”
[. . .] Hatewatch reached out to other experts in journalism for context about Hammer’s employment and political activity. Few agreed to comment on the record and no one spoke favorably of Hammer. Some responded by simply dismissing the credibility of Newsweek outright. New York University journalism instructor Jay Rosen referred Hatewatch to a tweet he issued in response to a Newsweek opinion piece authored by Donald Trump Jr. with the headline, “Trump was right about everything,” from March 16.
“Newsweek is not a thing. It’s like an animal that lives in the discarded shell of another animal,” Rosen wrote.
Starting in May 2020, after editor Nancy Cooper and chief content officer Dayan Candappa brought political activist Josh Hammer to run Newsweek’s opinion section, the 90-year-old publication has emerged as a hub for opinion pieces authored by radical right activists. Newsweek has published the extremist Posobiec as well as 2020 election-lie pusher Raheem Kassam in recent years, and Hammer has also hosted both of them on his Newsweek-branded podcast. The three men sat together talking and laughing at table #6 during the NYYRC event, near the stage.posted by Glegrinof the Pig-Man at 2:55 AM on September 22 [11 favorites]
When QAnon influencer-turned-congressperson Marjorie Taylor Greene took the stage, Hammer stood up and applauded. When she endorsed former President Trump as her 2024 presidential candidate of choice, Posobiec turned to Hammer and grinned. In January, Florida Gov. Ron DeSantis invited Hammer on a tour of his office, and the Florida-based Newsweek editor has since hyped DeSantis as a potential presidential candidate.
“You gonna go up there, Josh?” Posobiec chided Hammer about Greene’s endorsement of Trump, eliciting laughter from the table.
A Hatewatch reporter approached Hammer after Greene’s speech, made an introduction and asked if he knew Peter Brimelow of VDARE.
“He’s right here, right now?” Hammer asked with excitement.
“I didn’t even know he was here!” Hammer said of the infamous white nationalist publisher. “I’m going to say ‘Hi.’ ”
Almost inevitably this thread may have to metastasize along with Israel's wartime strategy as Lebanon is now getting the Palestine treatment --
Guardian: Dozens dead as Israel launches strikes on Lebanon after evacuation warnings -
Lebanon says at least 50 killed and Israel says it has hit 300 targets, after thousands in Lebanon advised to flee homes (missing a couple of quote marks there methinks)
Haaretz: Israeli Minister Claims Lebanon Cannot Be Defined as State, IDF Should Establish 'Buffer Zone' Inside Its Territory -
Israel's Diaspora Affairs Minister Amichai Chikli said that given the Lebanese government's 'failure to exercise its sovereignty over Hezbollah-controlled southern Lebanon,' the IDF had the right to 'take over' areas from which missiles could be fired into Israel (ungated)
Oh hey, a preview: .... in light of Lebanese government's "failure to exercise its sovereignty over Hezbollah-controlled southern Lebanon," the Israel Defense Forces had the right and responsibility to "take over" any area from which missiles have been, or could be, fired into Israel.
(...) He also added that by the same reasoning, Syria and Iraq do not qualify as states either.
(...) "In light of these facts," Chikli wrote, "the State of Israel has a duty to exercise its sovereignty, to protect its citizens instead of keeping them away from their homes, and to repel and keep the enemy away."
Axios (Ravid, basically): U.S. fears war in Lebanon but hopes Israeli attacks push Hezbollah to a deal
Oh I see: The big picture: Israeli officials said their increasing attacks against Hezbollah are not intended to lead to war but are an attempt to reach "de-escalation through escalation."
- The officials said Israel believes putting more pressure on Hezbollah could push the militia to agree to a diplomatic deal that would return citizens to northern Israel and southern Lebanon irrespective of the deadlocked negotiations to establish a ceasefire in Gaza.
- U.S. officials told Axios they recognize Israel's rational and agree with it, but stress this is an "extremely difficult calibration" that could easily go out of control and lead to an all-out war.
Gregg Carlstrom (Economist MidEast correspondent) commenting: The White House has basically given up trying to steer events in the Middle East and is betting the farm on the hope that Israel's government, which turned its Gaza war into a strategic disaster, will somehow prove to be a strategic genius in Lebanon.
Hah (as this came out before today): The Biden administration asked Israel to refrain from actions like a ground invasion or wide-ranging airstrikes in civilian areas that could escalate the conflict to a war and shut down diplomatic efforts, Israeli and U.S. officials said.
Zeteo: Is the US Trying to Pick a Fight With Hezbollah?
The DNC quietly added platform language hinting at a US escalation in Lebanon.
Erik Sperling, executive director of Just Foreign Policy, warns as much. "This language results from the Biden-Harris administration adopting AIPAC’s extreme regional agenda but giving it a softer edge with ‘Rules-Based International Order’ framing,” he told me, referring to the America Israel Public Affairs Committee. “Now that Israel has seen the previously unimaginable levels of mass killing the US will permit, it’s likely only a matter of time before we see further escalation in Lebanon.”
+972: What Israelis don’t want to hear about Iran and Hezbollah -
For years, Israeli expert Ori Goldberg has tried to challenge commonly-held assumptions about the Islamic Republic and its allies. Will anyone listen?
(Can you explain the significance of this week’s attack on Hezbollah and Lebanon? Why did Israel choose to attack now rather than during a more open phase of the war in the north?)
Israel has no strategy, it excels in tactics only. The reason the pagers and cell phones exploded now is because Israel clearly planned this operation months in advance, and felt like it had to strike while the iron is hot. This is no different than the assassination of Haniyeh. Israel works according to necessities and constraints that it creates for itself.
This attack is a blow to Hezbollah’s image, since Israel shows that it has intelligence superior to everyone else in the region. But on the other hand, it reveals the limits of Israel’s power. I think Israel wants Hezbollah to start a full-blown war — Netanyahu doesn’t feel he has a mandate from the public to start that war, so he needs Hezbollah to launch it. But Hezbollah has repeatedly said that it began firing [after October 7] in solidarity with Gaza, and will settle its account with Israel in the future.
(...) Before we move on, I want to point out the false assumption [of Israelis] in your question — that Hezbollah will continue attacking until Israel is destroyed, for the simple reason that this is Hezbollah’s raison d’etre. That’s simply not true. Israel is Hezbollah’s enemy and the group certainly fights it, but it also has a number of weaknesses vis-a-vis Israel, most prominently that as opposed to Israel, a sovereign state recognized by the UN, Hezbollah is a non-state actor.
Instead of taking advantage of those weaknesses, Israel turns to targeted assassinations, killing Hezbollah’s military leadership deep in Lebanese territory. Meanwhile, Hezbollah accumulates intelligence on Israel, ravages the north, and pins down much of the states’ military capabilities — which is exactly what it said it would do from the beginning.
(...) You would think that Israel has an interest in strengthening the Lebanese state in order to undermine Hezbollah, and the way to do that is to sign an agreement between the two countries. [But Israelis] will argue that this kind of agreement is meaningless when Hezbollah wants to annihilate Israel. And again you’re back to square one. If your working assumption is that Hezbollah and Iran are entirely dedicated to nothing more than wiping out Israel, then you have no choice but to wipe them out yourself.
You see how this exact logic is playing out in Gaza. Israelis say they do not want to kill Palestinian civilians, but [will also say] is it really our fault that Hamas surrounds itself with human shields and hides among civilians? And if we dig deeper, won’t we find out that those same civilians expressed joy on October 7? Or maybe they are allowing the Hamas fighters to enter humanitarian zones? Or maybe all the children who are born in Gaza are going to grow up to be terrorists? So what difference does it make who we kill?
The question isn’t whether Israel or Hezbollah is in the right, but how we can imagine a future. When you sign a peace agreement with an enemy, you don’t know whether it will hold up its end of the deal. You try to build yourselves guarantees, but you build them knowing that you have an interest in making peace. Israel consistently works to achieve the exact opposite.
posted by cendawanita at 8:23 AM on September 23 [14 favorites]
Guardian: Dozens dead as Israel launches strikes on Lebanon after evacuation warnings -
Lebanon says at least 50 killed and Israel says it has hit 300 targets, after thousands in Lebanon advised to flee homes (missing a couple of quote marks there methinks)
Haaretz: Israeli Minister Claims Lebanon Cannot Be Defined as State, IDF Should Establish 'Buffer Zone' Inside Its Territory -
Israel's Diaspora Affairs Minister Amichai Chikli said that given the Lebanese government's 'failure to exercise its sovereignty over Hezbollah-controlled southern Lebanon,' the IDF had the right to 'take over' areas from which missiles could be fired into Israel (ungated)
Oh hey, a preview: .... in light of Lebanese government's "failure to exercise its sovereignty over Hezbollah-controlled southern Lebanon," the Israel Defense Forces had the right and responsibility to "take over" any area from which missiles have been, or could be, fired into Israel.
(...) He also added that by the same reasoning, Syria and Iraq do not qualify as states either.
(...) "In light of these facts," Chikli wrote, "the State of Israel has a duty to exercise its sovereignty, to protect its citizens instead of keeping them away from their homes, and to repel and keep the enemy away."
Axios (Ravid, basically): U.S. fears war in Lebanon but hopes Israeli attacks push Hezbollah to a deal
Oh I see: The big picture: Israeli officials said their increasing attacks against Hezbollah are not intended to lead to war but are an attempt to reach "de-escalation through escalation."
- The officials said Israel believes putting more pressure on Hezbollah could push the militia to agree to a diplomatic deal that would return citizens to northern Israel and southern Lebanon irrespective of the deadlocked negotiations to establish a ceasefire in Gaza.
- U.S. officials told Axios they recognize Israel's rational and agree with it, but stress this is an "extremely difficult calibration" that could easily go out of control and lead to an all-out war.
Gregg Carlstrom (Economist MidEast correspondent) commenting: The White House has basically given up trying to steer events in the Middle East and is betting the farm on the hope that Israel's government, which turned its Gaza war into a strategic disaster, will somehow prove to be a strategic genius in Lebanon.
Hah (as this came out before today): The Biden administration asked Israel to refrain from actions like a ground invasion or wide-ranging airstrikes in civilian areas that could escalate the conflict to a war and shut down diplomatic efforts, Israeli and U.S. officials said.
Zeteo: Is the US Trying to Pick a Fight With Hezbollah?
The DNC quietly added platform language hinting at a US escalation in Lebanon.
Erik Sperling, executive director of Just Foreign Policy, warns as much. "This language results from the Biden-Harris administration adopting AIPAC’s extreme regional agenda but giving it a softer edge with ‘Rules-Based International Order’ framing,” he told me, referring to the America Israel Public Affairs Committee. “Now that Israel has seen the previously unimaginable levels of mass killing the US will permit, it’s likely only a matter of time before we see further escalation in Lebanon.”
+972: What Israelis don’t want to hear about Iran and Hezbollah -
For years, Israeli expert Ori Goldberg has tried to challenge commonly-held assumptions about the Islamic Republic and its allies. Will anyone listen?
(Can you explain the significance of this week’s attack on Hezbollah and Lebanon? Why did Israel choose to attack now rather than during a more open phase of the war in the north?)
Israel has no strategy, it excels in tactics only. The reason the pagers and cell phones exploded now is because Israel clearly planned this operation months in advance, and felt like it had to strike while the iron is hot. This is no different than the assassination of Haniyeh. Israel works according to necessities and constraints that it creates for itself.
This attack is a blow to Hezbollah’s image, since Israel shows that it has intelligence superior to everyone else in the region. But on the other hand, it reveals the limits of Israel’s power. I think Israel wants Hezbollah to start a full-blown war — Netanyahu doesn’t feel he has a mandate from the public to start that war, so he needs Hezbollah to launch it. But Hezbollah has repeatedly said that it began firing [after October 7] in solidarity with Gaza, and will settle its account with Israel in the future.
(...) Before we move on, I want to point out the false assumption [of Israelis] in your question — that Hezbollah will continue attacking until Israel is destroyed, for the simple reason that this is Hezbollah’s raison d’etre. That’s simply not true. Israel is Hezbollah’s enemy and the group certainly fights it, but it also has a number of weaknesses vis-a-vis Israel, most prominently that as opposed to Israel, a sovereign state recognized by the UN, Hezbollah is a non-state actor.
Instead of taking advantage of those weaknesses, Israel turns to targeted assassinations, killing Hezbollah’s military leadership deep in Lebanese territory. Meanwhile, Hezbollah accumulates intelligence on Israel, ravages the north, and pins down much of the states’ military capabilities — which is exactly what it said it would do from the beginning.
(...) You would think that Israel has an interest in strengthening the Lebanese state in order to undermine Hezbollah, and the way to do that is to sign an agreement between the two countries. [But Israelis] will argue that this kind of agreement is meaningless when Hezbollah wants to annihilate Israel. And again you’re back to square one. If your working assumption is that Hezbollah and Iran are entirely dedicated to nothing more than wiping out Israel, then you have no choice but to wipe them out yourself.
You see how this exact logic is playing out in Gaza. Israelis say they do not want to kill Palestinian civilians, but [will also say] is it really our fault that Hamas surrounds itself with human shields and hides among civilians? And if we dig deeper, won’t we find out that those same civilians expressed joy on October 7? Or maybe they are allowing the Hamas fighters to enter humanitarian zones? Or maybe all the children who are born in Gaza are going to grow up to be terrorists? So what difference does it make who we kill?
The question isn’t whether Israel or Hezbollah is in the right, but how we can imagine a future. When you sign a peace agreement with an enemy, you don’t know whether it will hold up its end of the deal. You try to build yourselves guarantees, but you build them knowing that you have an interest in making peace. Israel consistently works to achieve the exact opposite.
posted by cendawanita at 8:23 AM on September 23 [14 favorites]
Almost inevitably this thread may have to metastasize along with Israel's wartime strategy as Lebanon is now getting the Palestine treatment --
At some point Israel is going to have to get the Yugoslavia treatment, and for the same reasons:
US President Bill Clinton's Secretary of Defense, William Cohen, said, "The appalling accounts of mass killing in Kosovo and the pictures of refugees fleeing Serb oppression for their lives makes it clear that this is a fight for justice over genocide."
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 8:44 AM on September 23 [3 favorites]
At some point Israel is going to have to get the Yugoslavia treatment, and for the same reasons:
US President Bill Clinton's Secretary of Defense, William Cohen, said, "The appalling accounts of mass killing in Kosovo and the pictures of refugees fleeing Serb oppression for their lives makes it clear that this is a fight for justice over genocide."
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 8:44 AM on September 23 [3 favorites]
I don't think we should engage in any kind of military intervention. I do not trust any western military to improve the situation. I do think a global arms embargo and economic sanctions against Israel is past due, and of course selling arms to a genocidal regime is criminal.
posted by pattern juggler at 8:54 AM on September 23 [3 favorites]
posted by pattern juggler at 8:54 AM on September 23 [3 favorites]
Israel, the Middle East's Russia.
posted by Dysk at 9:00 AM on September 23 [4 favorites]
posted by Dysk at 9:00 AM on September 23 [4 favorites]
Clips I have from Twitter (unfortunately):
Rami Ayari was covering the UNSC session convened to discuss the Lebanon terror attacks. Of note to me, was the fact Japan's statements were practically censorious: "The fact that these incidents [pager explosions] happened in multiple places, including densely populated areas, and caused civilian casualties, is appalling. Civilians must be protected at all times, in accordance with international law."
(Notable to me because apparently the Japanese supply chain is shook, in particular ICOM: (South China Morning Post; Hong Kong, blocked in mainland iirc) Japanese company investigating after walkie-talkies carrying its logo explode in Lebanon )
(Also SCMP, video editorial: “If this is not terrorism, I don’t know what is,” says the Post’s managing editor of content, Yonden Lhatoo, about the carnage in Lebanon caused by exploding pagers and walkie-talkies.)
Back on Twitter, Ken Klippenstein: Former CIA Director Leon Panetta calls Israel's explosive pager operation "terrorism" in an interview with CBS today:
"I don't think there's any question it's a form of terrorism."
"When you have terror going into the supply chain, it makes people ask the question: what the hell is next?"
"The forces of war are largely in control right now of what's going on."
I guess once you're an ex-anything the thing you're paid to not understand (in public) is now clear as mud.
posted by cendawanita at 9:23 AM on September 23 [6 favorites]
Rami Ayari was covering the UNSC session convened to discuss the Lebanon terror attacks. Of note to me, was the fact Japan's statements were practically censorious: "The fact that these incidents [pager explosions] happened in multiple places, including densely populated areas, and caused civilian casualties, is appalling. Civilians must be protected at all times, in accordance with international law."
(Notable to me because apparently the Japanese supply chain is shook, in particular ICOM: (South China Morning Post; Hong Kong, blocked in mainland iirc) Japanese company investigating after walkie-talkies carrying its logo explode in Lebanon )
(Also SCMP, video editorial: “If this is not terrorism, I don’t know what is,” says the Post’s managing editor of content, Yonden Lhatoo, about the carnage in Lebanon caused by exploding pagers and walkie-talkies.)
Back on Twitter, Ken Klippenstein: Former CIA Director Leon Panetta calls Israel's explosive pager operation "terrorism" in an interview with CBS today:
"I don't think there's any question it's a form of terrorism."
"When you have terror going into the supply chain, it makes people ask the question: what the hell is next?"
"The forces of war are largely in control right now of what's going on."
I guess once you're an ex-anything the thing you're paid to not understand (in public) is now clear as mud.
posted by cendawanita at 9:23 AM on September 23 [6 favorites]
In any case, I just want to note without comment: Haifa, and the West Bank settlements have been (for Haifa)/are now (the settlements) under long-range missile strikes. Very safe, very secure.
posted by cendawanita at 10:00 AM on September 23 [3 favorites]
posted by cendawanita at 10:00 AM on September 23 [3 favorites]
Shot: (Reuters) US says no change to its military posture in Middle East amid attacks in Lebanon
Chaser: (AP) US is sending more troops to the Middle East as violence rises between Israel and Hezbollah
posted by cendawanita at 11:07 AM on September 23 [7 favorites]
Chaser: (AP) US is sending more troops to the Middle East as violence rises between Israel and Hezbollah
posted by cendawanita at 11:07 AM on September 23 [7 favorites]
Israel is escalating their campaign of terrorism, ethnic cleansing, and murder in Lebanon. Per the Lebanon Health Ministry, nearly 500 people have been killed today in airstrikes, making this the deadliest Israeli aggression since the July War in 2006. (Over the entire 33-day course of the July War, 1200 Lebanese people were killed.)
While the DNC quietly snuck language into its platform quietly supporting an escalation against Hezbollah, the White House reportedly gave its blessing to Israel for the airstrikes. With its usual sense of priorities, the US is asking Israel to guarantee the safety of American citizens evacuated from Lebanon and moving more troops to the Middle East.
Meanwhile, Palestinian refugees are assisting displaced Lebanese citizens in North Lebanon.
Israel is deliberately destroying critical infrastructure including roads being used for evacuation; there are also multiple reports of Israel bombing cars and ambulances.
The IDF is following the same consent-manufacturing playbook they have been using in Gaza, simultaneously claiming that all of Lebanon supports Hezbollah, demanding that civilians evacuate their homes, and providing unverifiable "evidence" that civilian homes are being used for military purposes. (In some cases, they seem to be outright creating their own "evidence" with multiple small-munitions weapons strikes.) Israeli officials are also openly calling for ethnic cleansing in southern Lebanon.
posted by adrienneleigh at 2:58 PM on September 23 [11 favorites]
While the DNC quietly snuck language into its platform quietly supporting an escalation against Hezbollah, the White House reportedly gave its blessing to Israel for the airstrikes. With its usual sense of priorities, the US is asking Israel to guarantee the safety of American citizens evacuated from Lebanon and moving more troops to the Middle East.
Meanwhile, Palestinian refugees are assisting displaced Lebanese citizens in North Lebanon.
Israel is deliberately destroying critical infrastructure including roads being used for evacuation; there are also multiple reports of Israel bombing cars and ambulances.
The IDF is following the same consent-manufacturing playbook they have been using in Gaza, simultaneously claiming that all of Lebanon supports Hezbollah, demanding that civilians evacuate their homes, and providing unverifiable "evidence" that civilian homes are being used for military purposes. (In some cases, they seem to be outright creating their own "evidence" with multiple small-munitions weapons strikes.) Israeli officials are also openly calling for ethnic cleansing in southern Lebanon.
posted by adrienneleigh at 2:58 PM on September 23 [11 favorites]
Séamus Malekafzali has a great long-form piece in The Nation today: Israel’s Terrorist Attacks Have Unleashed Hell in Lebanon. The whole piece is worth reading but i thought this bit was particularly telling.
When the inevitable news of the deaths of children made their way into the halls of power and Western newsrooms, officials and talking heads were quick to squash the questions of the attack’s morality. Representative Brad Sherman described the civilians harmed as being the result of “Hezbollah’s use of…human shields and their use of soldiers when [sic] age 18.” The identities of the children, who were not teenagers but a little boy and a little girl in their own homes, were clearly unknown to him. When these children’s circumstances too could not be ignored, they were dismissed on Israel and British channels as simply collateral damage, something that could not take away from such a stunning, staggering success. Other Times articles described civilians as simple “noncombatants [who] were also drawn into the fray,” and The Atlantic instead chose to not refer to civilians at all, describing the thousands wounded as simply “thousands of [Hezbollah] fighters.” Anything to avoid the difficult conversations and get to the good part.posted by adrienneleigh at 3:01 PM on September 23 [14 favorites]
Americans have delighted in a new way to taunt their perceived enemies, those who see Arabs as human beings. A political cartoonist and Detroit News staffer depicted Rashida Tlaib, the only Palestinian American in Congress, as having a pager that exploded on her desk. Backers of Israel have added pager emojis to their X handles to indicate their delight. When walking by Code Pink protesters who asked her about the 8-year-old and 11-year-old who had been killed in the explosions, Representative Harriet Hageman joked, “Do you have your pagers with you?”
On Australian airwaves, "the Iran-backed Hezbollah" is becoming this year's obligatory recitation for any mention of that organization, just as "Sinn Fein, the political wing of the IRA" did in its day.
I've started responding by messaging the feedback line for any program whose presenter I hear doing that, asking that if they're going to insist on "the Iran-backed Hezbollah", could they please at least do us all the courtesy of being equally consistent with "the US-backed IDF".
posted by flabdablet at 1:11 AM on September 24 [9 favorites]
I've started responding by messaging the feedback line for any program whose presenter I hear doing that, asking that if they're going to insist on "the Iran-backed Hezbollah", could they please at least do us all the courtesy of being equally consistent with "the US-backed IDF".
posted by flabdablet at 1:11 AM on September 24 [9 favorites]
I believe this escalation was mostly predictable. The Washington Institute's analysis concludes on Aug 6 that the 30,000 Hezbollah fighters at the border will prevent 60,000 Israelis from returning home despite the fact the border security has been beefed up from just two battalions (600 soldiers) up to forty battalions - and that maintaining forty battalions isn't tenable, as they need to rest and resupply after the campaign in Gaza. So what is unsaid is that there is a very limited window to act - either a massive strike now to secure their border, or stand down their soldiers and admit defeat. The second option is politically untenable, so... a decapitating first strike it is.
Hezbollah has long been considered the most well armed non-state actor in the world, with estimates they have around 100,000 rockets primed and ready to fire at Israel in a lower tech mutually assured destruction play similar to North Korea and their artillery batteries aimed at Seoul. This is ostensibly stayed Israel's hand over the past year, with a relatively minimal response to the 10,000 or so rockets fired across the border.
Perhaps Israel feels confident enough to gamble with a decapitation strike because it's degraded enough of Hezbollah's command and control with their communications attack, so any retaliation would be weaker and uncoordinated.
Given how Israel's right wing leadership has been accused of being fascist, I can't help but notice the similarity to Starship Troopers, where Sargent Zim says "The enemy cannot push a button, if you disable his hand."
Some video footage of the exchange of fire yesterday -
Strike on building sets off a rocket stored inside, shooting out and hitting the building next to it.
Burning building cooks off a rocket inside which spirals into the building next to it.
Burning building with a rocket engine cooking off inside. Distinctive pulsing sound and light effect from a damaged rocket engine cooking off.
Burning building with a rocket engine cooking off inside. Similar cook off as above but at slower frequency.
Iron Dome interceptions over Haifa.
Hezbollah rocket strikes highway in Israel.
posted by xdvesper at 4:06 AM on September 24
Hezbollah has long been considered the most well armed non-state actor in the world, with estimates they have around 100,000 rockets primed and ready to fire at Israel in a lower tech mutually assured destruction play similar to North Korea and their artillery batteries aimed at Seoul. This is ostensibly stayed Israel's hand over the past year, with a relatively minimal response to the 10,000 or so rockets fired across the border.
Perhaps Israel feels confident enough to gamble with a decapitation strike because it's degraded enough of Hezbollah's command and control with their communications attack, so any retaliation would be weaker and uncoordinated.
Given how Israel's right wing leadership has been accused of being fascist, I can't help but notice the similarity to Starship Troopers, where Sargent Zim says "The enemy cannot push a button, if you disable his hand."
Some video footage of the exchange of fire yesterday -
Strike on building sets off a rocket stored inside, shooting out and hitting the building next to it.
Burning building cooks off a rocket inside which spirals into the building next to it.
Burning building with a rocket engine cooking off inside. Distinctive pulsing sound and light effect from a damaged rocket engine cooking off.
Burning building with a rocket engine cooking off inside. Similar cook off as above but at slower frequency.
Iron Dome interceptions over Haifa.
Hezbollah rocket strikes highway in Israel.
posted by xdvesper at 4:06 AM on September 24
Just to provide some perspective:
"According to the Armed Conflict Location and Event Data (ACLED), Israel exchanged at least 9,613 attacks with Hezbollah and other armed groups in Lebanon from October 7 last year to September 6.
About 82 percent of these attacks – 7,845 – were carried out by Israel, which killed at least 646 people in Lebanon.
Hezbollah and other armed groups were responsible for 1,768 attacks that killed at least 32 Israelis." [al-jazeera]
The irony of the military goliath of the region calling a weapons system "david's sling" is also quite something.
posted by Dysk at 5:56 AM on September 24 [17 favorites]
"According to the Armed Conflict Location and Event Data (ACLED), Israel exchanged at least 9,613 attacks with Hezbollah and other armed groups in Lebanon from October 7 last year to September 6.
About 82 percent of these attacks – 7,845 – were carried out by Israel, which killed at least 646 people in Lebanon.
Hezbollah and other armed groups were responsible for 1,768 attacks that killed at least 32 Israelis." [al-jazeera]
The irony of the military goliath of the region calling a weapons system "david's sling" is also quite something.
posted by Dysk at 5:56 AM on September 24 [17 favorites]
Hezbollah rocket strikes highway in Israel.
Thank God, no one seems to have been hurt by that explosion.
posted by pattern juggler at 7:02 AM on September 24 [2 favorites]
Thank God, no one seems to have been hurt by that explosion.
posted by pattern juggler at 7:02 AM on September 24 [2 favorites]
In the meantime I believe the casualty total in Lebanon so far has outpaced the last invasion's body count.
posted by cendawanita at 7:34 AM on September 24 [5 favorites]
posted by cendawanita at 7:34 AM on September 24 [5 favorites]
Israel just needs some "breathiing room".
Un-fucking believable
posted by Windopaene at 11:48 AM on September 24 [5 favorites]
Un-fucking believable
posted by Windopaene at 11:48 AM on September 24 [5 favorites]
Who said that? Curious as to the source...
posted by tiny frying pan at 12:04 PM on September 24
posted by tiny frying pan at 12:04 PM on September 24
Israel just needs some "breathiing room"
Perhaps it should consider loosening the straps on its fucking suicide vest.
posted by flabdablet at 12:58 PM on September 24 [6 favorites]
Perhaps it should consider loosening the straps on its fucking suicide vest.
posted by flabdablet at 12:58 PM on September 24 [6 favorites]
Israel just needs some "breathiing room"
pace Molly Ivins, it sounded better in the original German.
posted by adrienneleigh at 1:36 PM on September 24 [5 favorites]
pace Molly Ivins, it sounded better in the original German.
posted by adrienneleigh at 1:36 PM on September 24 [5 favorites]
I did wonder if drag-artist Indie Niles latest video "How Israel Weaponizes Pop Culture" would be better titled "Hollywoods vilification of Arabs & Palestinians" (the puppet-hand controlling entertainment is off-putting in the thumbnail too) but got to the bit about 150 Hollywood industry peeps wanting Bisans Emmy nomination quashed, and I'm thinking "Bisan is essentially a nobody reporting genocide in a war-zone, what are these people afraid of?" (I know what they're afraid of, I'm being rhetorical).
It did make me wonder when the vilification of Arabs started in Western pop-culture and sure enough, there are studies... The evolution of Hollywood's representation of Arabs before 9/11: the relationship between political events and the notion of 'Otherness' and books like Reel Bad Arabs mentions films going back to the 1920's.
"As (Edward Wadie) Said described, the American media repeats the political line that ‘they must be foreign devils, otherwise what is our gigantic military machine doing there?’"
posted by phigmov at 9:53 PM on September 24 [8 favorites]
It did make me wonder when the vilification of Arabs started in Western pop-culture and sure enough, there are studies... The evolution of Hollywood's representation of Arabs before 9/11: the relationship between political events and the notion of 'Otherness' and books like Reel Bad Arabs mentions films going back to the 1920's.
"As (Edward Wadie) Said described, the American media repeats the political line that ‘they must be foreign devils, otherwise what is our gigantic military machine doing there?’"
posted by phigmov at 9:53 PM on September 24 [8 favorites]
Israel Deliberately Blocked Humanitarian Aid to Gaza, Two Government Bodies Concluded. Antony Blinken Rejected Them. (ProPublica):
posted by kmt at 7:14 AM on September 25 [16 favorites]
The U.S. government’s two foremost authorities on humanitarian assistance concluded this spring that Israel had deliberately blocked deliveries of food and medicine into Gaza.Emphasis not in the original.
The U.S. Agency for International Development delivered its assessment to Secretary of State Antony Blinken and the State Department’s refugees bureau made its stance known to top diplomats in late April. Their conclusion was explosive because U.S. law requires the government to cut off weapons shipments to countries that prevent the delivery of U.S.-backed humanitarian aid. Israel has been largely dependent on American bombs and other weapons in Gaza since Hamas’ Oct. 7 attacks.
But Blinken and the administration of President Joe Biden did not accept either finding. Days later, on May 10, Blinken delivered a carefully worded statement to Congress that said, “We do not currently assess that the Israeli government is prohibiting or otherwise restricting the transport or delivery of U.S. humanitarian assistance.”
Prior to his report, USAID had sent Blinken a detailed 17-page memo on Israel’s conduct. The memo described instances of Israeli interference with aid efforts, including killing aid workers, razing agricultural structures, bombing ambulances and hospitals, sitting on supply depots and routinely turning away trucks full of food and medicine.
posted by kmt at 7:14 AM on September 25 [16 favorites]
Prior to his report, USAID had sent Blinken a detailed 17-page memo on Israel’s conduct.
And if Blinken simply left that report in his inbox and never actually read it then he didn't assess it, which means he wasn't technically lying! That's the best kind of not lying!
It's just marvellous, what they teach them in those US diplomacy schools. It hadn't really occurred to me before that La La La I Can't Hear You is a subject you could actually get a PhD in.
Israel, of course, wrote the book on I Am Rubber You Are Glue. And just wait until you see what the pair of them can do with We're Not Touching Him!
posted by flabdablet at 10:28 AM on September 25 [2 favorites]
And if Blinken simply left that report in his inbox and never actually read it then he didn't assess it, which means he wasn't technically lying! That's the best kind of not lying!
It's just marvellous, what they teach them in those US diplomacy schools. It hadn't really occurred to me before that La La La I Can't Hear You is a subject you could actually get a PhD in.
Israel, of course, wrote the book on I Am Rubber You Are Glue. And just wait until you see what the pair of them can do with We're Not Touching Him!
posted by flabdablet at 10:28 AM on September 25 [2 favorites]
Israeli military preparing for a possible ground operation into Lebanon. (AP updates also includes talks of a possible ceasefire for 4 weeks.)
posted by toastyk at 5:05 PM on September 25 [3 favorites]
posted by toastyk at 5:05 PM on September 25 [3 favorites]
A "ground operation", otherwise known as an "invasion".
posted by adrienneleigh at 6:57 PM on September 25 [11 favorites]
posted by adrienneleigh at 6:57 PM on September 25 [11 favorites]
Surprise: Israel rejects US-backed Lebanon ceasefire plan, hits Beirut again.
posted by toastyk at 9:46 AM on September 26 [6 favorites]
posted by toastyk at 9:46 AM on September 26 [6 favorites]
why are we letting them do this. They have no Oct 7 narrative for this attack on Lebanon, and they are *transparently* the aggressors, in blatant violation of international law. There's no "we were attacked!!!" cover to hide behind here. They just seem to have decided, there's no time like the present when it comes to starting a regional war. Or maybe: there's just a few more months of a completely placid and compliant American president, with no telling how Harris will deal with them, let's get this shit going now before someone with a backbone comes in and puts an end to it? I dunno. But it's MADNESS and the US should put its fucking foot down
posted by dis_integration at 11:26 AM on September 26 [9 favorites]
posted by dis_integration at 11:26 AM on September 26 [9 favorites]
why are we letting them do this. They have no Oct 7 narrative for this attack on Lebanon, and they are *transparently* the aggressors, in blatant violation of international law.
The Israeli justification is that this is a response to the Hezbollah rocket attacks that began with Israel's invasion of Gaza. About 65,000 Israelis have evacuated their homes because of these attacks.
posted by mr_roboto at 11:42 AM on September 26 [2 favorites]
The Israeli justification is that this is a response to the Hezbollah rocket attacks that began with Israel's invasion of Gaza. About 65,000 Israelis have evacuated their homes because of these attacks.
posted by mr_roboto at 11:42 AM on September 26 [2 favorites]
The actual reason is probably because Israel wants to take over northern Lebanon and the US does not care enough to object to it in any real manner.
posted by toastyk at 11:57 AM on September 26 [4 favorites]
posted by toastyk at 11:57 AM on September 26 [4 favorites]
dis_integration I agree, but war is just so profitable, America is speaking out of both sides of its mouth, calling for peace and dispensing weapons to Israel. Israel should be cut off from ALL support - it might force them to talk instead of mass murder.
The world is marching toward global war for a genocidal narcissist.
The dead hand of 'Christian' Zionism (what an oxymoron), and arms manufacturers (fair bit of quid-pro-quo between the two) is driving this.
posted by unearthed at 12:13 PM on September 26 [6 favorites]
The world is marching toward global war for a genocidal narcissist.
The dead hand of 'Christian' Zionism (what an oxymoron), and arms manufacturers (fair bit of quid-pro-quo between the two) is driving this.
posted by unearthed at 12:13 PM on September 26 [6 favorites]
Hezbollah in Lebanon has been attacking Israel for years and a lot more since Oct 7. I don't think an invasion is justified by that but Israel has a claim to defense.
posted by Nelson at 1:53 PM on September 26 [1 favorite]
posted by Nelson at 1:53 PM on September 26 [1 favorite]
the legal case is pretty cut-and-dry, if someone is lobbing missiles over the border daily you do generally have the right to use force to stop them, and that force can be "sending ground forces to destroy the missiles and shoot the guys who are firing the missiles" and not just doing your own retaliatory airstrikes.
in fact a ground incursion may be more justifiable because it's more likely to be able to prevent further attacks than airstrikes, which are demonstrably not particularly effective
of course that doesn't mean they should, after all everyone in WWI had some legal justification for going to war too and look how that went
posted by BungaDunga at 2:20 PM on September 26
in fact a ground incursion may be more justifiable because it's more likely to be able to prevent further attacks than airstrikes, which are demonstrably not particularly effective
of course that doesn't mean they should, after all everyone in WWI had some legal justification for going to war too and look how that went
posted by BungaDunga at 2:20 PM on September 26
Overall (for years), and also since October 7, Israel has sent like an order of magnitude more missiles across the border of Lebanon than Hizbullah has sent into Israel.
Lebanon has the right to defend itself.
posted by adrienneleigh at 2:28 PM on September 26 [6 favorites]
Lebanon has the right to defend itself.
posted by adrienneleigh at 2:28 PM on September 26 [6 favorites]
well that's the thing about wars, it's a rare one where one side is the obviously illegal aggressor, often both sides have a plausible claim that their actions are totally legal according to the usual international laws. It's not illegal to escalate a little bit in response to an armed attack, and if two sides do that enough times, now you've got a perfectly legal war.
posted by BungaDunga at 2:37 PM on September 26 [1 favorite]
posted by BungaDunga at 2:37 PM on September 26 [1 favorite]
Overall (for years), and also since October 7, Israel has sent like an order of magnitude more missiles across the border of Lebanon than Hizbullah has sent into Israel.
Really? That seems incredibly difficult to figure. If you're counting each rocket launch/aerial ordinance deployment as a single event, there definitely have been more rocket attacks from Hezbollah that Israeli strikes since the 2006 war. I don't know about before that. Hezbollah's been using rockets since at least the early 90s.
Lebanon has the right to defend itself.
Lebanon is a failed state occupied by nongovernmental militias, Hezbollah primary among them.
posted by mr_roboto at 2:45 PM on September 26
Really? That seems incredibly difficult to figure. If you're counting each rocket launch/aerial ordinance deployment as a single event, there definitely have been more rocket attacks from Hezbollah that Israeli strikes since the 2006 war. I don't know about before that. Hezbollah's been using rockets since at least the early 90s.
Lebanon has the right to defend itself.
Lebanon is a failed state occupied by nongovernmental militias, Hezbollah primary among them.
posted by mr_roboto at 2:45 PM on September 26
Even if Israel is returning 2x as many missiles as Hezbollah it would be entirely legal, it is going to take more missiles to degrade Hezbollah's military capabilities than it takes for Hezbollah to force civilian evacuations from northern Israel. And stopping Hezbollah's attacks is a totally legal military objective, unlike whatever it is that Hezbollah thinks it's doing with its post-Oct7th attacks (it says it's doing it in solidarity with Hamas, not in self-defense, which is legally dubious at best)
posted by BungaDunga at 2:52 PM on September 26
posted by BungaDunga at 2:52 PM on September 26
boy, what doesn't israel have the right to do
posted by sagc at 2:56 PM on September 26 [19 favorites]
posted by sagc at 2:56 PM on September 26 [19 favorites]
For reference, mapping attacks - About 81 percent of these attacks – 8,313 – were carried out by Israel, which killed at least 752 people in Lebanon.
Hezbollah and other armed groups were responsible for 1,901 attacks that killed at least 33 Israelis.
posted by toastyk at 3:27 PM on September 26 [8 favorites]
Hezbollah and other armed groups were responsible for 1,901 attacks that killed at least 33 Israelis.
posted by toastyk at 3:27 PM on September 26 [8 favorites]
The right to defend itself being extended to extrajudicial attacks itself iirc a very contentious take in IL whose proponents seem to be only the US and Israel in terms of actually executing it with the rest of us tolerating it due to international diplomacy levers being bent out of recognition. Then in practice, every time it happens (not per operation or war but per execution of any force) Israel (not the US) has taken it to such extraordinary lengths it's both evidently not proportional and clearly not judicious (is well-targeted), two of the criteria that Israel consistently fails that the USA in its backchannels and bureaucracy inc the military often very much objects to, despite whichever political flavour that runs the WH or the lower rungs of power and mainstream institutions gradually subsumed by the lobby.
posted by cendawanita at 6:19 PM on September 26 [8 favorites]
posted by cendawanita at 6:19 PM on September 26 [8 favorites]
Oh I forgot to mention, this particular take gets even more iffy (and singularly held by the two countries) when it comes to non-state actors versus an actual war against a state in how much validity or legitimacy it arguably has, but I thought it was self-evident. Then I realized, maybe not this space.
posted by cendawanita at 6:21 PM on September 26 [9 favorites]
posted by cendawanita at 6:21 PM on September 26 [9 favorites]
Doctors Describe the Horror of Israel’s Pager Attack in Lebanon (New Lines Magazine):
Nour brought the young couple into her examination room. She pulled out a blank file for the newborn and wrote his name: Aiman. She placed him on the scales: a little over 7 pounds. She lay Aiman on his back on an examination table and began to record his weight. As she did so, the man’s pager beeped twice.posted by kmt at 7:43 AM on September 27 [8 favorites]
“Excuse me,” he said, and reached down to silence it.
As he did so, about an ounce of explosives concealed within the pager detonated, sending shards of metal and fragments of its thick plastic casing out in all directions. The shrapnel tore deep wounds in the man’s abdomen, lodged in the ceiling of the clinic and lacerated the face of the baby as he lay on his back. Nour was thrown backward as the room filled with dust. She could not see through the smoke, but she could hear the woman’s voice shouting: “Aiman!”
The BBC is weaponising its Lebanon reporting to help disguise Israel's crimes (Middle East Eye):
The media chorus goes like this: Israel is attacking Lebanon to stop Hezbollah rocket fire and allow the residents of Israel’s most northerly communities to return home. Or in the blunter, Orwellian language of Israeli officials framing this horror show: Israel must "escalate to de-escalate".posted by kmt at 9:30 AM on September 27 [7 favorites]
Lebanese civilians are paying the heaviest price – some 550 of them were killed in the first day of Israel’s bombing campaign alone. Many tens of thousands have been driven – ethnically cleansed – from the territory of south Lebanon.
Why? Because, says Israel, Hezbollah has hidden its cache of rockets in their homes. Those homes must therefore be destroyed. Strangely, Hezbollah seems to have forgotten that it has extensive rocky terrain across south Lebanon where it could more safely and wisely hide its arsenal.
If this story sounds familiar, that’s because it is. It is the same script used to justify the slaughter in Gaza. Then, the media mindlessly reheated Israeli talking points about Israel destroying Gaza to "eliminate Hamas".
I agree directionally with that piece at least insofar as the media criticism but this bit seems unlikely to me:
President Joe Biden, assuming this frail, confused figure is still capable of runnning the country, could stop Israel’s wars on Gaza and Lebanon at the drop of a hat. All he has to do is to refuse to send US weapons causing all the death and destruction and to signal to his European allies that they must do likewise.
Israel has a lot of weapons, is not totally reliant on the West, and can probably prosecute a war in Lebanon without buying more. At least for a while. Who's to say they won't go ahead with it and hope the West's opinion changes again afterwards? That doesn't mean the West should keep supplying weapons, but I'm just skeptical that it would immediately change Netanyahu's calculus this much. It's not like the West doesn't have a history of reverting back to friendly relations after leaving an erstwhile ally out in the cold for a little bit.
posted by BungaDunga at 10:54 AM on September 27 [2 favorites]
President Joe Biden, assuming this frail, confused figure is still capable of runnning the country, could stop Israel’s wars on Gaza and Lebanon at the drop of a hat. All he has to do is to refuse to send US weapons causing all the death and destruction and to signal to his European allies that they must do likewise.
Israel has a lot of weapons, is not totally reliant on the West, and can probably prosecute a war in Lebanon without buying more. At least for a while. Who's to say they won't go ahead with it and hope the West's opinion changes again afterwards? That doesn't mean the West should keep supplying weapons, but I'm just skeptical that it would immediately change Netanyahu's calculus this much. It's not like the West doesn't have a history of reverting back to friendly relations after leaving an erstwhile ally out in the cold for a little bit.
posted by BungaDunga at 10:54 AM on September 27 [2 favorites]
Also "Alistair Crooke, a former British diplomat based in Beirut" is a weird guy.
posted by BungaDunga at 11:03 AM on September 27
posted by BungaDunga at 11:03 AM on September 27
israel is completely reliant on the united states and would immediately seek peace if they didn’t think the US would back them up. they are a small country and absolutely cannot fight a multifront war without the military aid we give them. The 8.7 billion dollar aid package were sending them is a HUGE percentage of their 500 billion dollar GDP and it’s only the most recent package. keeping their wars going without US aid would require them moving to a total war economy with massive sectors of the economy transformed into arms production (or finding another benefactor). if we said no more aid until you get your shit together they would
posted by dis_integration at 11:31 AM on September 27 [9 favorites]
posted by dis_integration at 11:31 AM on September 27 [9 favorites]
To add to that, 78% percent of their armaments come from American manufacturers. The only other real options for weaponry are Russia and China, so they would have to do a complete re-alignment of their current international stance to court these countries if we cut off arms sales to them (which the President can do with a stroke of a pen). And the Russians and Chinese are very likely to tell Israel to fuck off.
posted by dis_integration at 11:49 AM on September 27 [9 favorites]
posted by dis_integration at 11:49 AM on September 27 [9 favorites]
All Netanyahu has to do is be willing to roll the dice on a Trump win in November, which is an objectively insane risk to take but I'm not confident he wouldn't.
Pulling support is obviously worth trying, but IMHO it's not obvious that it would work. How do you make a break with Israel credible when everyone knows the intense political pressure there would be to renege? It just seems a lot harder than as described.
posted by BungaDunga at 12:24 PM on September 27
Pulling support is obviously worth trying, but IMHO it's not obvious that it would work. How do you make a break with Israel credible when everyone knows the intense political pressure there would be to renege? It just seems a lot harder than as described.
posted by BungaDunga at 12:24 PM on September 27
They're carpet-bombing Beirut now, the IDF is claiming this was a "precise strike" even though their own estimates place fatalities alone at over 300.
posted by Glegrinof the Pig-Man at 12:29 PM on September 27 [7 favorites]
posted by Glegrinof the Pig-Man at 12:29 PM on September 27 [7 favorites]
Hebrew media reports: Growing Israeli assessment Nasrallah killed in Beirut strike
posted by BungaDunga at 2:48 PM on September 27 [1 favorite]
posted by BungaDunga at 2:48 PM on September 27 [1 favorite]
they flattened 6 civilian residential buildings in beirut to maybe kill one guy who will almost certainly be replaced by someone else and likely someone with less restraint
posted by dis_integration at 3:13 PM on September 27 [8 favorites]
posted by dis_integration at 3:13 PM on September 27 [8 favorites]
Pulling support is obviously worth trying, but IMHO it's not obvious that it would worrk
there are already bilateral agreements and MOU which is set to zero US Dollars by 2028.
" Shore Procurement (OSP). Via OSP the current MOU allows Israel to spend a portion of its FMF on Israeli-origin rather than U.S.-origin defense articles. This was 25 percent in FY 2019 but is set to phase-out and decrease to zero in FY 2028"
this process began under the Obama Administration. the one thing I am not sure of is that when MOU ends by 2028 does that mean all us aid will cease. I understand part of the agreement is for Israel to spend our money on their own products. the problem with China and Russia being a substitute arms dealers that their weapons will not fit on the 5th generation aircraft. but I don't think either side would sell them weapons at least China wouldn't. Bibi gets to take home 8.7 billion... the real interesting question is when the strikes were happening did Israel call United States or the United States call Israel. I'm also curious to know how Israel knew that nasrallah was that the headquarters. as far as I know, Israel gave a warning that the buildings would be bombed but who knows but if so, seems like he would have gotten out. since there's been no word but silence could go two ways, probably go to Iran and or safe location or he was killed.
one would think this is cutting off the head of the leadership but it's really just cracking the jars with a whole bunch of escalatory repercussions that the United States seems to be distancing itself from quite rapidly.
posted by clavdivs at 4:14 PM on September 27 [1 favorite]
there are already bilateral agreements and MOU which is set to zero US Dollars by 2028.
" Shore Procurement (OSP). Via OSP the current MOU allows Israel to spend a portion of its FMF on Israeli-origin rather than U.S.-origin defense articles. This was 25 percent in FY 2019 but is set to phase-out and decrease to zero in FY 2028"
this process began under the Obama Administration. the one thing I am not sure of is that when MOU ends by 2028 does that mean all us aid will cease. I understand part of the agreement is for Israel to spend our money on their own products. the problem with China and Russia being a substitute arms dealers that their weapons will not fit on the 5th generation aircraft. but I don't think either side would sell them weapons at least China wouldn't. Bibi gets to take home 8.7 billion... the real interesting question is when the strikes were happening did Israel call United States or the United States call Israel. I'm also curious to know how Israel knew that nasrallah was that the headquarters. as far as I know, Israel gave a warning that the buildings would be bombed but who knows but if so, seems like he would have gotten out. since there's been no word but silence could go two ways, probably go to Iran and or safe location or he was killed.
one would think this is cutting off the head of the leadership but it's really just cracking the jars with a whole bunch of escalatory repercussions that the United States seems to be distancing itself from quite rapidly.
posted by clavdivs at 4:14 PM on September 27 [1 favorite]
As I read it, that 25% number refers to "allow[ing] Israel to spend [25%] of its [$3.3 billion] on Israeli-origin rather than U.S.-origin defense articles" and it going to zero just means they'll have to do all their shopping at US arms manufacturers.
posted by BungaDunga at 4:30 PM on September 27 [3 favorites]
posted by BungaDunga at 4:30 PM on September 27 [3 favorites]
Just dropping in to suggest that any US residents who are horrified by escalation of violence and specifically bombing residential buildings in Beirut to call your congress people. Congress people vastly underestimate sentiment in their districts and it matters even if all they do is bump a counter on their "constituent upset by US military aid" tracking line.
posted by R343L at 5:07 PM on September 27 [5 favorites]
posted by R343L at 5:07 PM on September 27 [5 favorites]
via Twitter:
All 11 members of the medical unit in the town of al-Taybeh in South Lebanon have been martyred. The center director, the on-call doctor, the nurses, and the paramedics. All gone. Israel murdered an entire team of medical personnel in one town. Oh my god
"Our war is with Hezbollah", my ass. I'll grant that this was a "precision strike" but it was precisely targeted at medical personnel, in line with Israel's usual MO.
posted by adrienneleigh at 6:45 PM on September 27 [9 favorites]
All 11 members of the medical unit in the town of al-Taybeh in South Lebanon have been martyred. The center director, the on-call doctor, the nurses, and the paramedics. All gone. Israel murdered an entire team of medical personnel in one town. Oh my god
"Our war is with Hezbollah", my ass. I'll grant that this was a "precision strike" but it was precisely targeted at medical personnel, in line with Israel's usual MO.
posted by adrienneleigh at 6:45 PM on September 27 [9 favorites]
Precision war crimes are not precision strikes. Not that I think we are in disagreement.
posted by corb at 3:39 AM on September 28 [4 favorites]
posted by corb at 3:39 AM on September 28 [4 favorites]
Hey, uh, can a person wonder out loud, in writing, what the Biden Administration's response since been, or will such a theoretical person will be admonished for not recognizing what a horrible situation this is?
Anyway, I'm only catching up. I don't even know why my eyebrows still had space to raise when I saw this from Prem Thakker: Think about this
–US releases $8.7 billion more to Israel
–US welcomes internationally-accused war criminal (whose forces just killed an American) to US soil
–Hours *before* that leader's forces strike Lebanon with US bombs, the US tells its *own citizens* it won't help them flee
Screenshot is a message from the US embassy in Beirut that it's not evacuating citizens at this time. Commercial flights are available though, if you'd like to help yourself.
posted by cendawanita at 3:51 AM on September 28 [8 favorites]
Anyway, I'm only catching up. I don't even know why my eyebrows still had space to raise when I saw this from Prem Thakker: Think about this
–US releases $8.7 billion more to Israel
–US welcomes internationally-accused war criminal (whose forces just killed an American) to US soil
–Hours *before* that leader's forces strike Lebanon with US bombs, the US tells its *own citizens* it won't help them flee
Screenshot is a message from the US embassy in Beirut that it's not evacuating citizens at this time. Commercial flights are available though, if you'd like to help yourself.
posted by cendawanita at 3:51 AM on September 28 [8 favorites]
Oh I see, we have progressed to "humiliation":
Biden told allies that Netanyahu doesn’t want to end fighting in Lebanon -
After a week of back and forth with Israel that increasingly frustrated Biden, Israel launched a massive strike against Hezbollah targeting the group’s leader.
One person who spoke with Biden said the president felt Netanyahu had humiliated both Secretary Antony Blinken and Biden himself with his back-and-forth about a cease-fire proposal with Hezbollah.
(...) In Washington on Friday, senior West Wing officials scrambled to assess the ramifications of the massive Israeli strike, according to the two administration officials. Both were granted anonymity because they were not authorized to publicly discuss private conversations.
(...) The latest strike could also further heighten tensions between Biden and Netanyahu, the two administration officials said. Time and again, the Biden administration has been surprised by Israel’s brazenness in their attacks amid sensitive cease-fire talks, including the recent detonations of pagers and walkie-talkies used by Hezbollah operatives that also reportedly killed and wounded civilians.
Ah so, instead of complicit we'll go with weak. Maybe if they'd actually follow their bureaucrats' reports and recommendations...?
//In the tune of Bad Boys// Good man, good man, whatchu gonna do, whatchu gonna do when it's tanking your polls.
posted by cendawanita at 4:26 AM on September 28 [6 favorites]
Biden told allies that Netanyahu doesn’t want to end fighting in Lebanon -
After a week of back and forth with Israel that increasingly frustrated Biden, Israel launched a massive strike against Hezbollah targeting the group’s leader.
One person who spoke with Biden said the president felt Netanyahu had humiliated both Secretary Antony Blinken and Biden himself with his back-and-forth about a cease-fire proposal with Hezbollah.
(...) In Washington on Friday, senior West Wing officials scrambled to assess the ramifications of the massive Israeli strike, according to the two administration officials. Both were granted anonymity because they were not authorized to publicly discuss private conversations.
(...) The latest strike could also further heighten tensions between Biden and Netanyahu, the two administration officials said. Time and again, the Biden administration has been surprised by Israel’s brazenness in their attacks amid sensitive cease-fire talks, including the recent detonations of pagers and walkie-talkies used by Hezbollah operatives that also reportedly killed and wounded civilians.
Ah so, instead of complicit we'll go with weak. Maybe if they'd actually follow their bureaucrats' reports and recommendations...?
//In the tune of Bad Boys// Good man, good man, whatchu gonna do, whatchu gonna do when it's tanking your polls.
posted by cendawanita at 4:26 AM on September 28 [6 favorites]
It’s a measure of how fucked up Israel’s actions in the last few decades have been that I’m sort of rooting for Iran here. Maybe this is just a land back (from the Israelis) situation. At the very least, why is the US taking Israel’s side in this? It makes zero sense to me. I’m sorta for real - the new Iranian president’s comments at the UN seemed way more reasonable than anyone else’s.
posted by caviar2d2 at 6:13 AM on September 28 [7 favorites]
posted by caviar2d2 at 6:13 AM on September 28 [7 favorites]
Screenshot is a message from the US embassy in Beirut that it's not evacuating citizens at this time. Commercial flights are available though, if you'd like to help yourself.
fwiw I don't think this is that unusual? The US doesn't usually organize airlifts for citizens while commercial air travel is still working. There are lots of Western countries with citizens in Lebanon and they aren't evacuating them either.
posted by BungaDunga at 7:25 AM on September 28
fwiw I don't think this is that unusual? The US doesn't usually organize airlifts for citizens while commercial air travel is still working. There are lots of Western countries with citizens in Lebanon and they aren't evacuating them either.
posted by BungaDunga at 7:25 AM on September 28
Time and again, the Biden administration has been surprised by Israel’s brazenness in their attacks amid sensitive cease-fire talks
Look, I know they're dopes, but at some point Charlie Brown must be faking surprise after Lucy pulls the football away, right? It strains credulity that they still believe Netanyahu will negotiate in good faith.
It’s a measure of how fucked up Israel’s actions in the last few decades have been that I’m sort of rooting for Iran here.
it's a measure of how awful Hezbollah behaved in the Syrian war that I've read reports of Syrian refugees cheering Israel on, because they hate Hezbollah that much. I dunno how widely shared that sentiment is but it seems to be a real thing.
posted by BungaDunga at 7:33 AM on September 28 [3 favorites]
Look, I know they're dopes, but at some point Charlie Brown must be faking surprise after Lucy pulls the football away, right? It strains credulity that they still believe Netanyahu will negotiate in good faith.
It’s a measure of how fucked up Israel’s actions in the last few decades have been that I’m sort of rooting for Iran here.
it's a measure of how awful Hezbollah behaved in the Syrian war that I've read reports of Syrian refugees cheering Israel on, because they hate Hezbollah that much. I dunno how widely shared that sentiment is but it seems to be a real thing.
posted by BungaDunga at 7:33 AM on September 28 [3 favorites]
fwiw I don't think this is that unusual? The US doesn't usually organize airlifts for citizens while commercial air travel is still working. There are lots of Western countries with citizens in Lebanon and they aren't evacuating them either.
Yes - and in this case I'll make it more explicit: what people (journalists, diplomats, people in the related sectors) are pointing out is that the US (and other Western countries) aren't pulling the lever on calling it an emergency situation befitting that step despite the quite literal war-like situation is because they cannot admit that's the situation. Compare with the Russian invasion of Ukraine considering the ratio of air strikes that struck Kyiv (trick question I admit, as it was none in February) in that first week of evacuations.
posted by cendawanita at 7:39 AM on September 28 [6 favorites]
Yes - and in this case I'll make it more explicit: what people (journalists, diplomats, people in the related sectors) are pointing out is that the US (and other Western countries) aren't pulling the lever on calling it an emergency situation befitting that step despite the quite literal war-like situation is because they cannot admit that's the situation. Compare with the Russian invasion of Ukraine considering the ratio of air strikes that struck Kyiv (trick question I admit, as it was none in February) in that first week of evacuations.
posted by cendawanita at 7:39 AM on September 28 [6 favorites]
my impression is that the US usually waits until civilian transit is totally embuggered before evacuating people. They did issue a "get the fuck out now" notice so that part of the State Department seems to understand the situation, at least.
Did the US actually organize Ukraine evacuations? I thought we just let everyone self-evacuate, presumably overland once civilian air travel stopped happening. Loads and loads of Ukrainians came over the border to Poland so I don't think an evacuation effort for Americans was really needed. The last big organized evacuations I remember was in Sudan.
posted by BungaDunga at 7:57 AM on September 28
Did the US actually organize Ukraine evacuations? I thought we just let everyone self-evacuate, presumably overland once civilian air travel stopped happening. Loads and loads of Ukrainians came over the border to Poland so I don't think an evacuation effort for Americans was really needed. The last big organized evacuations I remember was in Sudan.
posted by BungaDunga at 7:57 AM on September 28
also the state department is offering consular assistance in leaving which seems to include emergency loans to buy a commercial ticket if the request form is anything to go by.
posted by BungaDunga at 8:07 AM on September 28 [1 favorite]
posted by BungaDunga at 8:07 AM on September 28 [1 favorite]
Loads and loads of Ukrainians came over the border to Poland so I don't think an evacuation effort for Americans was really needed.
Consular staff's heads would roll if they even get close to that kind of justification tho (formally or otherwise), and I'm thinking of my piddling mid-level country that had its own scandal(s) for not being quick enough (not because it's not needed; that's what you get for being reflexively skeptical of US analysis and taking Russian one at its word) in Ukraine (which in the end sorta finally did evacuate its known/registered citizens because the 2nd charges d'affaires chartered a bus on her own a week into the invasion), and then in Bangladesh (which was definitely more like what you're saying, and in the end it was Twitter cyberbullying that basically activated an official response to evacuate, commandeered planes and all) this year. I guess the USA had to quietly introduce a tier system no amount of public outcry will move? I think at this point I'm asking a rhetorical question.
posted by cendawanita at 9:02 AM on September 28 [2 favorites]
Consular staff's heads would roll if they even get close to that kind of justification tho (formally or otherwise), and I'm thinking of my piddling mid-level country that had its own scandal(s) for not being quick enough (not because it's not needed; that's what you get for being reflexively skeptical of US analysis and taking Russian one at its word) in Ukraine (which in the end sorta finally did evacuate its known/registered citizens because the 2nd charges d'affaires chartered a bus on her own a week into the invasion), and then in Bangladesh (which was definitely more like what you're saying, and in the end it was Twitter cyberbullying that basically activated an official response to evacuate, commandeered planes and all) this year. I guess the USA had to quietly introduce a tier system no amount of public outcry will move? I think at this point I'm asking a rhetorical question.
posted by cendawanita at 9:02 AM on September 28 [2 favorites]
Guardian analysis fwiw, even though it came out Friday, it didn't anticipate the latest news: Hostility at the UN will not trouble Netanyahu, but now he’s angered the US
Anyway, just some callback to the earlier parts of the thread: It is the UN’s historic role in the birth of the state of Israel, alongside a state for Palestinians, with the partition resolution of November 1947 that makes Israel such a central and difficult issue for the organisation. Having blessed Israel’s creation, by 1975 the UN general assembly was passing a resolution saying Zionism was a form of racism and racial discrimination.
History is catching up with both sides. When the UN’s premier court, the international court of justice, in July found Israel’s extended occupation of the Palestinian territories discriminatory, the UN’s role in the birth of the state of Israel was the cornerstone of its wider judgment.
(...) One senior European diplomat, long opposed to US strategy, was incredulous that the US had not sought clearer guarantees from Netanyahu before going public with the 21-day ceasefire plan.
Reflecting US anger, the US national security spokesperson John Kirby said pointedly: “That statement we worked on last night wasn’t just drawn up in a vacuum. It was done after careful consultation, not only with the countries that signed on to it, but Israel itself.”
The French president, Emmanuel Macron, who had been at the heart of the talks in New York, said the proposal had been “prepared, negotiated with the [Israeli] prime minister and his teams, both by the Americans and by ourselves” .
But it will not be the first time the west has thought Netanyahu is making a strategic mistake, but then proved unable or unwilling to force him to rethink.
Oh, did they assume Lebanon being an actual state (whose status isn't contested) would amount to anything in the calculations?
posted by cendawanita at 9:19 AM on September 28 [5 favorites]
Anyway, just some callback to the earlier parts of the thread: It is the UN’s historic role in the birth of the state of Israel, alongside a state for Palestinians, with the partition resolution of November 1947 that makes Israel such a central and difficult issue for the organisation. Having blessed Israel’s creation, by 1975 the UN general assembly was passing a resolution saying Zionism was a form of racism and racial discrimination.
History is catching up with both sides. When the UN’s premier court, the international court of justice, in July found Israel’s extended occupation of the Palestinian territories discriminatory, the UN’s role in the birth of the state of Israel was the cornerstone of its wider judgment.
(...) One senior European diplomat, long opposed to US strategy, was incredulous that the US had not sought clearer guarantees from Netanyahu before going public with the 21-day ceasefire plan.
Reflecting US anger, the US national security spokesperson John Kirby said pointedly: “That statement we worked on last night wasn’t just drawn up in a vacuum. It was done after careful consultation, not only with the countries that signed on to it, but Israel itself.”
The French president, Emmanuel Macron, who had been at the heart of the talks in New York, said the proposal had been “prepared, negotiated with the [Israeli] prime minister and his teams, both by the Americans and by ourselves” .
But it will not be the first time the west has thought Netanyahu is making a strategic mistake, but then proved unable or unwilling to force him to rethink.
Oh, did they assume Lebanon being an actual state (whose status isn't contested) would amount to anything in the calculations?
posted by cendawanita at 9:19 AM on September 28 [5 favorites]
Oh, sure. From earlier than the Guardian piece: (Haaretz) Diplomatic Sources: Netanyahu Backtracked on Agreements With U.S. Regarding Hezbollah Truce Due to Political Pressure -
According to sources, Netanyahu expressed his approval of the U.S.-French truce proposal but changed course after facing criticism from factions within his government. 'The Americans faced something similar during negotiations over the hostage deal in Gaza,' a Western diplomat told Haaretz (ungated)
Missed this: (Politico) Biden’s foreign policy goals slip as clock ticks
posted by cendawanita at 9:30 AM on September 28 [5 favorites]
According to sources, Netanyahu expressed his approval of the U.S.-French truce proposal but changed course after facing criticism from factions within his government. 'The Americans faced something similar during negotiations over the hostage deal in Gaza,' a Western diplomat told Haaretz (ungated)
Missed this: (Politico) Biden’s foreign policy goals slip as clock ticks
posted by cendawanita at 9:30 AM on September 28 [5 favorites]
Ryan Grim: (with screenshot) On October 12, the State Dept began booking charter flights to fly Americans out of Israel if they wanted to leave. Americans in Lebanon, facing an ongoing bombing campaign (with U.S. bombs) and no real way out, are told to get bent.
h/t @halalflow
He's qting Tlaib who's talking about anecdotes/reports that the commercial flights are being cancelled or very expensive (though as noted above, loans can be provided).
(ETA: and based on live updates IDF is implementing a blockade (machine translation) of Lebanese airspace)
posted by cendawanita at 9:39 AM on September 28 [3 favorites]
h/t @halalflow
He's qting Tlaib who's talking about anecdotes/reports that the commercial flights are being cancelled or very expensive (though as noted above, loans can be provided).
(ETA: and based on live updates IDF is implementing a blockade (machine translation) of Lebanese airspace)
posted by cendawanita at 9:39 AM on September 28 [3 favorites]
After Israel in 24 hours stared down the UN and killed Nasrallah and most of what is left of the Hezbollah hierarchy, there won't be a cease fire - Netanyahu has total victory in his sights and Biden isn't going to oppose him. The big inflection point will be the (US) election. If Trump wins, Netanyahu can count on continued support and can have an extended timeline. If Harris wins, Netanyahu will need to have all facts on the ground in his favor by January 20th so as any Harris decision to reduce support is not an issue.
posted by MattD at 10:09 AM on September 28 [5 favorites]
posted by MattD at 10:09 AM on September 28 [5 favorites]
"U.S. Defense Secretary Lloyd Austin spoke twice with Israeli Defense Minister Yoav Gallant on Friday, stressing that the United States is “determined to prevent Iran and Iranian-backed partners and proxies from exploiting the situation,” according to a Pentagon readout." (Washington Post live blog)
No signs of any real pushback against any of this, never mind that "the situation" that could be "exploited" by Iran is that Israel just blew away the top leadership of Hezbollah
posted by BungaDunga at 10:28 AM on September 28 [1 favorite]
No signs of any real pushback against any of this, never mind that "the situation" that could be "exploited" by Iran is that Israel just blew away the top leadership of Hezbollah
posted by BungaDunga at 10:28 AM on September 28 [1 favorite]
"If there were not an Israel, we’d have to invent one" - President Joe Biden
posted by jeffburdges at 11:25 AM on September 28 [3 favorites]
posted by jeffburdges at 11:25 AM on September 28 [3 favorites]
Vice President Harris reaffirms her "unwavering support" for Israel.
posted by tofu_crouton at 1:40 PM on September 28 [1 favorite]
posted by tofu_crouton at 1:40 PM on September 28 [1 favorite]
Israel has illegally and constantly violated Lebanese airspace and sovereignty for decades, and they've ramped that up significantly after Oct 7 as well. For the last several months folks in Beirut have been dealing with sonic booms, sometimes multiple times a day, as Israeli warplanes do random "exercises" over Lebanon for no reason other than to create terror.
It's very, very likely that they're going to bomb Hariri International Airport (Lebanon's only commercial airport) very soon, as well; it was one of the first things they did in the July War in 2006. They reportedly hacked the Hariri control tower today to warn off an Iranian cargo plane, and threatened to destroy the airport if the plane landed.
posted by adrienneleigh at 3:51 PM on September 28 [7 favorites]
It's very, very likely that they're going to bomb Hariri International Airport (Lebanon's only commercial airport) very soon, as well; it was one of the first things they did in the July War in 2006. They reportedly hacked the Hariri control tower today to warn off an Iranian cargo plane, and threatened to destroy the airport if the plane landed.
posted by adrienneleigh at 3:51 PM on September 28 [7 favorites]
Mod note: Comment removed. Please refrain from wishing death and violence on others, thanks.
posted by Brandon Blatcher (staff) at 5:27 PM on September 28
posted by Brandon Blatcher (staff) at 5:27 PM on September 28
No matter what barefaced diplomacy the Biden Administration comes out with, you don't even have to wait a day for the state of Israel to do their thing and just "humiliate" the US:
NBC: Israel decided to kill Nasrallah after he refused to separate Lebanon from Gaza, officials say
Israel took the decision to assassinate Nasrallah after concluding he would not accept any diplomatic solution to end the fighting on the Israel-Lebanon border that was not tied to an end to the war in Gaza, an Israeli official said.
Israel had tried repeatedly to reach a separate diplomatic solution with Hezbollah since October 8th but Nasrallah was adamant he would continue firing until Israel made a deal with Hamas, the official told NBC News.
"What we found after over 11 months is that Nasrallah is persistent in tying himself — and the hijacked Lebanese state that he took over — to whatever’s going on in Gaza," the official said. "He declined every diplomatic effort. He declined messages to stop connecting himself to Gaza. And he continued to fire at Israel, and in the past few weeks or months, even expanded the range and velocity of attacks against Israel."
“This led us to understand that he cannot be part of the game anymore. And what we did is to conduct a very precise, intelligence-based strike against the headquarters of Hezbollah in Beirut, to make sure that Nasrallah cannot be a decision maker anymore in the region.”
When asked if Israel believed Nasrallah’s replacement might be more open to a diplomatic solution, the official responded that whether the new Hezbollah leader agrees to a diplomatic solution for returning displaced Israelis is up to him. But this is not Israel's final option and that there are many other tools available to achieve their objectives if there is noncompliance, the official said.
The official declined to say whether or not it was possible for Israel to achieve its goals without a ground invasion of Lebanon.
(Don't mind the messenger) Abandon Harris posting side by side statements from Dubya and Biden & Harris.
2002: 'President Bush denounced as "heavy-handed" an Israeli warplane's missile attack on a Gaza City apartment building, which killed a leader of Hamas who was at the top of Israel's most-wanted list and at least 14 other Palestinians, including nine children.
'"The President views this as a heavy-handed action that is not consistent with dedication to peace in the Middle East,' White House Press Secretary Ari Fleischer told reporters July 23.'
I decided not to quote Biden because I couldn't find any reference to the civilian casualties caused by the attack.
Anyway, Jpost: Is Lebanon part of Israel’s promised territory?
Betteridge's Law not applicable: If one looks at a map, they will be astounded by how far north this river extends and how vast the Land of Israel truly is. While we may not be able to reclaim all of it in our time, Hashem will surely return it to us soon.
posted by cendawanita at 11:14 PM on September 28 [8 favorites]
NBC: Israel decided to kill Nasrallah after he refused to separate Lebanon from Gaza, officials say
Israel took the decision to assassinate Nasrallah after concluding he would not accept any diplomatic solution to end the fighting on the Israel-Lebanon border that was not tied to an end to the war in Gaza, an Israeli official said.
Israel had tried repeatedly to reach a separate diplomatic solution with Hezbollah since October 8th but Nasrallah was adamant he would continue firing until Israel made a deal with Hamas, the official told NBC News.
"What we found after over 11 months is that Nasrallah is persistent in tying himself — and the hijacked Lebanese state that he took over — to whatever’s going on in Gaza," the official said. "He declined every diplomatic effort. He declined messages to stop connecting himself to Gaza. And he continued to fire at Israel, and in the past few weeks or months, even expanded the range and velocity of attacks against Israel."
“This led us to understand that he cannot be part of the game anymore. And what we did is to conduct a very precise, intelligence-based strike against the headquarters of Hezbollah in Beirut, to make sure that Nasrallah cannot be a decision maker anymore in the region.”
When asked if Israel believed Nasrallah’s replacement might be more open to a diplomatic solution, the official responded that whether the new Hezbollah leader agrees to a diplomatic solution for returning displaced Israelis is up to him. But this is not Israel's final option and that there are many other tools available to achieve their objectives if there is noncompliance, the official said.
The official declined to say whether or not it was possible for Israel to achieve its goals without a ground invasion of Lebanon.
(Don't mind the messenger) Abandon Harris posting side by side statements from Dubya and Biden & Harris.
2002: 'President Bush denounced as "heavy-handed" an Israeli warplane's missile attack on a Gaza City apartment building, which killed a leader of Hamas who was at the top of Israel's most-wanted list and at least 14 other Palestinians, including nine children.
'"The President views this as a heavy-handed action that is not consistent with dedication to peace in the Middle East,' White House Press Secretary Ari Fleischer told reporters July 23.'
I decided not to quote Biden because I couldn't find any reference to the civilian casualties caused by the attack.
Anyway, Jpost: Is Lebanon part of Israel’s promised territory?
Betteridge's Law not applicable: If one looks at a map, they will be astounded by how far north this river extends and how vast the Land of Israel truly is. While we may not be able to reclaim all of it in our time, Hashem will surely return it to us soon.
posted by cendawanita at 11:14 PM on September 28 [8 favorites]
'He refused all possible diplomatic solutions' and 'he wouldn't stop while the war in Gaza was on' are contradictory statements. Sounds like stopping the invasion of Gaza would be the diplomatic solution.
posted by Dysk at 11:22 PM on September 28 [6 favorites]
posted by Dysk at 11:22 PM on September 28 [6 favorites]
How Israeli spies penetrated Hizbollah:
A former high-ranking Lebanese politician in Beirut said the penetration of Hizbollah by Israeli or US intelligence was “the price of their support for Assad”.
“They had to reveal themselves in Syria,” he said, where the secretive group suddenly had to stay in touch and share information with the notoriously corrupt Syrian intelligence service, or with Russian intelligence services, who were regularly monitored by the Americans.
“They went from being highly disciplined and purists to someone who [when defending Assad] let in a lot more people than they should have,” said Yezid Sayigh, a senior fellow at the Carnegie Middle East Center. “The complacency and arrogance was accompanied by a shift in its membership — they started to become flabby.”
Israel strikes Houthi targets in Yemen as it continues to bomb Lebanon.
posted by toastyk at 10:08 AM on September 29 [4 favorites]
A former high-ranking Lebanese politician in Beirut said the penetration of Hizbollah by Israeli or US intelligence was “the price of their support for Assad”.
“They had to reveal themselves in Syria,” he said, where the secretive group suddenly had to stay in touch and share information with the notoriously corrupt Syrian intelligence service, or with Russian intelligence services, who were regularly monitored by the Americans.
“They went from being highly disciplined and purists to someone who [when defending Assad] let in a lot more people than they should have,” said Yezid Sayigh, a senior fellow at the Carnegie Middle East Center. “The complacency and arrogance was accompanied by a shift in its membership — they started to become flabby.”
Israel strikes Houthi targets in Yemen as it continues to bomb Lebanon.
posted by toastyk at 10:08 AM on September 29 [4 favorites]
They’re literally admitting that they assassinated a diplomatic leader because they didn’t like his position in negotiations.
What will it take for the US to fucking act?
posted by corb at 11:09 AM on September 29 [9 favorites]
What will it take for the US to fucking act?
posted by corb at 11:09 AM on September 29 [9 favorites]
we're not gonna act. this is a president who sends weapons and a food Pier that doesn't work at the same time. this is probably one of the worst Presidents when it comes to foreign policy that I've ever seen and I don't even want to talk about Ukraine because any president would have figured that out.
to let netanyahu punk the United States so many times, all the while coming out of the side of Joe's mouth in the state department is peace peace let's have some sort of understanding the processes and completed blah blah blah. Biden would probably tell you in secret, oh there's much more going on than you might realize, oh look at these photographs, you don't really fully understand the situation.
Biden should have never been selected by the Democratic Party for president in the first place.
a fairly good example of a evacuation from a country in turmoil is Operation Eagle pull.
posted by clavdivs at 2:34 PM on September 29 [3 favorites]
to let netanyahu punk the United States so many times, all the while coming out of the side of Joe's mouth in the state department is peace peace let's have some sort of understanding the processes and completed blah blah blah. Biden would probably tell you in secret, oh there's much more going on than you might realize, oh look at these photographs, you don't really fully understand the situation.
Biden should have never been selected by the Democratic Party for president in the first place.
a fairly good example of a evacuation from a country in turmoil is Operation Eagle pull.
posted by clavdivs at 2:34 PM on September 29 [3 favorites]
Palestine and Lebanon are living the same nightmare. We will rise out of it together (Mohammed R. Mhawish for +972 Magazine)
A Lebanese friend of mine, who had just escaped with her two children after a missile obliterated their home, told me: “We are with you. We will always be with you. No matter what they do to us, our hearts are in Gaza.” Her voice cracked with exhaustion and grief, but there was also a defiant, unwavering strength.posted by adrienneleigh at 3:52 PM on September 29 [5 favorites]
For the people of Lebanon, Gaza is not a distant cause; it is a mirror of their own suffering. They understand too well the feeling of being abandoned by the world, the endless waiting for help that never comes. They know the pain of watching their children grow up under the shadow of war, of raising a family in the ruins of what once was. And even now, with bombs exploding around them, they stand with us, just as they always have.
…
It’s an unbearable scene, one no parent should ever witness. And yet, their voices have only grown louder in their support for my people. On social media and in the streets, they are shouting for Palestine, for Gaza. They know, just as we do, that our struggles are intertwined, that the bombs killing their children are the same ones killing ours.
Slight tangent with the news of Yemen bombing - it's not the first time the port of Hudeydah (where, among other things, most humanitarian aid is sent to) got hit this year, such that it was sufficient for HRW to come out with a report in August: Yemen: Israeli Port Attack Possible War Crime -Retaliatory July Strike on Hodeidah Threatens Food, Aid, Electricity Supply
posted by cendawanita at 6:22 PM on September 29 [5 favorites]
posted by cendawanita at 6:22 PM on September 29 [5 favorites]
Responding to this Axios story (Scoop: Rep. Elissa Slotkin warns Harris is "underwater" in Michigan) Rep. Ruwa Romman: There are three times as many Lebanese as Palestinians in Michigan including elected democrats. Their families are now displaced. Why is everyone shocked? Slotkin also bragged that Arab turnout was so low she won those areas and didn’t need them. This isn’t rocket science.
I've said it before but honestly, if only the War on Terror didn't displace so many people from the region that it's now a domestic issue. Eh.
posted by cendawanita at 8:04 PM on September 29 [4 favorites]
I've said it before but honestly, if only the War on Terror didn't displace so many people from the region that it's now a domestic issue. Eh.
posted by cendawanita at 8:04 PM on September 29 [4 favorites]
Israel just dropped a bomb on a residential building in a Sunni neighborhood in Beirut. So much for the pretext of "we are only at war with Hizbullah", if anyone still believed that.
posted by adrienneleigh at 8:09 PM on September 29 [5 favorites]
posted by adrienneleigh at 8:09 PM on September 29 [5 favorites]
I've said it before but honestly, if only the War on Terror didn't displace so many people from the region that it's now a domestic issue. Eh
most families in Michigan from Lebanese heritage have been here over a hundred years.
Slotkin also bragged that Arab turnout was so low she won those areas and didn’t need them. This isn’t rocket science.
all I see is a quote from X who's linking to the story you did. I won't believe that until I see some art. this is Michigan politics, something I know about. look, it was a few michiganders who turned the Republican Party around and one of them happened to gain the presidency, the only President never elected to office. second of all, it's Michigan and the politics outwardly are simple but it's extremely complex. the shift from a democratic to a more Republican voting constituency has been only a phenomenon for the last 20 to 25 years. it showed the world the automobile and produced the workers who revolted against it's producers. Michigan is one of five states that are economically key for survival of the United States it also holds the largest gas field storage capacity in the u.s.
I can go on for an hour but this is Michigan politics. slotkins roll here is bring light to the situation and to somehow ease it or confront it, this helps Harris.In the United States politics, Slotkin could have a cabinet position for this (like Granholm) but the party sees her as something a little bit more down the road quite possibly the White House itself.
as I tried to show in my link about Saginaw, the real way to win the White House is to get those voters who do not vote to get out and vote and that candidate needs to offer some hope and or change because this is the polite way of saying you'll do better under me than them. Michigan politics can be very complicated for example I'll never become a Democrat never ever. my family was republican from the time of Lincoln when that party was semi officially formed in the state of Michigan but I don't really consider that, sort of know my history. I'm an independent but I voted for more Democrats than anybody in my life. To put a break on it, there's been a generational shift where people are not voting for what their families used too and their voting for what they want to whether that's Democrat or Republican. the root cause of this I believe, looking back over my own family history over 200 years, is that one does their own thinking. one year my family are whigs, the next are Republicans because well, they were abolitionists. my great grandfather who I met, was asked why he is voting for kennedy, a democrat and Catholic to which y
he responded, I'm not going to hold that against him. So by 1960 we see a generational shift in voting patterns and that's 100 years right there.
oh I did try to convert to Catholicism but it didn't hold.
It led to a total voter turnout of about 22%
most countries, people are afraid to vote for who they want too, in america, we have the luxury to say... well, nothing.
that's your power lying in the streets waiting to be picked up. everyone knows it, everyone wants it.
just think if you could buy a vote in America.
oh I saw a comment link in the story about someone shaking hands with the biometric data and all. I don't know, go back to Yamamoto and his assassination that was extremely intricate even in the 1940s. the secret was to keep the data secret which they did.
posted by clavdivs at 9:39 PM on September 29 [1 favorite]
most families in Michigan from Lebanese heritage have been here over a hundred years.
Slotkin also bragged that Arab turnout was so low she won those areas and didn’t need them. This isn’t rocket science.
all I see is a quote from X who's linking to the story you did. I won't believe that until I see some art. this is Michigan politics, something I know about. look, it was a few michiganders who turned the Republican Party around and one of them happened to gain the presidency, the only President never elected to office. second of all, it's Michigan and the politics outwardly are simple but it's extremely complex. the shift from a democratic to a more Republican voting constituency has been only a phenomenon for the last 20 to 25 years. it showed the world the automobile and produced the workers who revolted against it's producers. Michigan is one of five states that are economically key for survival of the United States it also holds the largest gas field storage capacity in the u.s.
I can go on for an hour but this is Michigan politics. slotkins roll here is bring light to the situation and to somehow ease it or confront it, this helps Harris.In the United States politics, Slotkin could have a cabinet position for this (like Granholm) but the party sees her as something a little bit more down the road quite possibly the White House itself.
as I tried to show in my link about Saginaw, the real way to win the White House is to get those voters who do not vote to get out and vote and that candidate needs to offer some hope and or change because this is the polite way of saying you'll do better under me than them. Michigan politics can be very complicated for example I'll never become a Democrat never ever. my family was republican from the time of Lincoln when that party was semi officially formed in the state of Michigan but I don't really consider that, sort of know my history. I'm an independent but I voted for more Democrats than anybody in my life. To put a break on it, there's been a generational shift where people are not voting for what their families used too and their voting for what they want to whether that's Democrat or Republican. the root cause of this I believe, looking back over my own family history over 200 years, is that one does their own thinking. one year my family are whigs, the next are Republicans because well, they were abolitionists. my great grandfather who I met, was asked why he is voting for kennedy, a democrat and Catholic to which y
he responded, I'm not going to hold that against him. So by 1960 we see a generational shift in voting patterns and that's 100 years right there.
oh I did try to convert to Catholicism but it didn't hold.
It led to a total voter turnout of about 22%
most countries, people are afraid to vote for who they want too, in america, we have the luxury to say... well, nothing.
that's your power lying in the streets waiting to be picked up. everyone knows it, everyone wants it.
just think if you could buy a vote in America.
oh I saw a comment link in the story about someone shaking hands with the biometric data and all. I don't know, go back to Yamamoto and his assassination that was extremely intricate even in the 1940s. the secret was to keep the data secret which they did.
posted by clavdivs at 9:39 PM on September 29 [1 favorite]
That is very interesting to know - certainly I was making the same assumption for Lebanese-Americans as with the other Middle Eastern-originated groups. But regardless do you think this complication would still not steer attitudes? I hope this won't depress turnout so much.
posted by cendawanita at 11:25 PM on September 29 [4 favorites]
posted by cendawanita at 11:25 PM on September 29 [4 favorites]
Elizabeth Spiers on Blue Sky:
posted by Winnie the Proust at 9:35 AM on September 30 [11 favorites]
There will be entire academic history texts written about what the U.S. let Netanyahu get away with simply because the institutional classical realists never thought about what would happen if the government of Israel went rogue. And never thought of how to manage geopolitical relations without it.More at the link.
posted by Winnie the Proust at 9:35 AM on September 30 [11 favorites]
Israel tells US it will launch invasion into Lebanon.
US officials believe Israel will not conduct full invasion into Lebanon. (archive.is)
Satellite images show about 100 Israeli military vehicles gathered near Lebanon border.
posted by toastyk at 10:45 AM on September 30 [8 favorites]
US officials believe Israel will not conduct full invasion into Lebanon. (archive.is)
Satellite images show about 100 Israeli military vehicles gathered near Lebanon border.
posted by toastyk at 10:45 AM on September 30 [8 favorites]
surely this time Israel has been fully frank and open about its plans with their American counterparts
posted by BungaDunga at 12:33 PM on September 30 [3 favorites]
posted by BungaDunga at 12:33 PM on September 30 [3 favorites]
But regardless do you think this complication would still not steer attitudes? I hope this won't depress turnout so much. believe it or not, I thought about this a lot today, and by this timestamp, I'm a little tired so I'm going to re-energize because I think this deserves an honest response with cogent writing. :)
as a preamble, I will probably use personal information and address you but I'm sure your skills at searching are very good and just googling: Lebanese Americans and Michigan is interesting and I came up with this page. I think it's accurate. So really nearly 140 years ago, and you probably garnered that many of these early immigrants were Christian and it was Palestinian Muslim who emigrated at turn of the century then Chaldeans, Yemenese, and so on. See how Henry Ford was a factor especially folk immigrating to highland Park were he plants were very nearby the link is pretty good for a basic primer.
(sorry, I use the words 'plants' for factory)
--
posted by clavdivs at 1:50 PM on September 30 [1 favorite]
as a preamble, I will probably use personal information and address you but I'm sure your skills at searching are very good and just googling: Lebanese Americans and Michigan is interesting and I came up with this page. I think it's accurate. So really nearly 140 years ago, and you probably garnered that many of these early immigrants were Christian and it was Palestinian Muslim who emigrated at turn of the century then Chaldeans, Yemenese, and so on. See how Henry Ford was a factor especially folk immigrating to highland Park were he plants were very nearby the link is pretty good for a basic primer.
(sorry, I use the words 'plants' for factory)
--
posted by clavdivs at 1:50 PM on September 30 [1 favorite]
the United States, as a superpower, does one thing no other does, it obfusicates what real power is all the while occasionally highlighting what its power is capable of
and all the while there is America.
so we have Slotkin who wants the nod from the Harris camp holds a virtual fundraising with Cory Booker who has had some of his own encounters with pro Palestinian movements going back to 2019. in politics its best to confront an issue with someone on the 'same team' try to address a problem in this case, slotkin has endorsed Harris is most likely trying to play power broker for an official endorsement from Harris.
I believe this suffices to say the Harris campaign is concerned about the issue especially the uncommitted movement which I think is a very legitimate process and I think it shows perhaps some of the age differentiation in voting patterns and lack of voter turn out.
specifically, everything that's going on in Lebanon, even with the various factions, does have an effect back here as to how much I can't really say but the uncommitted movement could show you a demographic compare that to the total demographic. maybe a small indication I got personally today was when someone I know whose family is from living in Lebanon didn't speak of it but we haven't spoken of what's going on for a while again it's complicated.
bottom Dollar, I think it will cost some votes but how many, I don't know, I think history, recent news events, political movements could answer it better but I think something can be said about regional politics in context of people and how they interact.
posted by clavdivs at 3:36 PM on September 30 [1 favorite]
and all the while there is America.
so we have Slotkin who wants the nod from the Harris camp holds a virtual fundraising with Cory Booker who has had some of his own encounters with pro Palestinian movements going back to 2019. in politics its best to confront an issue with someone on the 'same team' try to address a problem in this case, slotkin has endorsed Harris is most likely trying to play power broker for an official endorsement from Harris.
I believe this suffices to say the Harris campaign is concerned about the issue especially the uncommitted movement which I think is a very legitimate process and I think it shows perhaps some of the age differentiation in voting patterns and lack of voter turn out.
specifically, everything that's going on in Lebanon, even with the various factions, does have an effect back here as to how much I can't really say but the uncommitted movement could show you a demographic compare that to the total demographic. maybe a small indication I got personally today was when someone I know whose family is from living in Lebanon didn't speak of it but we haven't spoken of what's going on for a while again it's complicated.
bottom Dollar, I think it will cost some votes but how many, I don't know, I think history, recent news events, political movements could answer it better but I think something can be said about regional politics in context of people and how they interact.
posted by clavdivs at 3:36 PM on September 30 [1 favorite]
...there is an open thread for discussion of US involvement in the Middle East; the topic of this thread is Israel's attacks and terrorism in Lebanon.
posted by adrienneleigh at 4:04 PM on September 30 [4 favorites]
posted by adrienneleigh at 4:04 PM on September 30 [4 favorites]
That's on me, I'm afraid. If it's a derail, I definitely sparked it. Nevertheless you're right about the US thread - which has gotten a new burst of activity because of Lebanon too.
posted by cendawanita at 6:05 PM on September 30 [2 favorites]
posted by cendawanita at 6:05 PM on September 30 [2 favorites]
Following explosions in Beirut and Damascus this morning, Israel sends troops into southern Lebanon (live of Beirut skyline). We don't yet know the scope of invasions, if these represent larger Israeli troop movements (which Hezbollah denies) or smaller commando units. Fast moving news as countries recall nationals from Lebanon and UN peacekeepers prepare for further violation of the 2006 UN resolution 1701 that saw their deployment to Southern Lebanon.
Lacking a better link for the scope of assassinations of Hezbollah leadership, Wikipedia has an updating List of Israeli Assassinations (§2020s). Albeit, its missing a few (ie high ranking individuals that were part of a larger group with someone more senior present). With 20% (1 million individuals) of Lebanon displaced, have the escalations disabled Hezbollah or does it guarantee the cycle?
posted by rubatan at 4:24 AM on October 1 [2 favorites]
Lacking a better link for the scope of assassinations of Hezbollah leadership, Wikipedia has an updating List of Israeli Assassinations (§2020s). Albeit, its missing a few (ie high ranking individuals that were part of a larger group with someone more senior present). With 20% (1 million individuals) of Lebanon displaced, have the escalations disabled Hezbollah or does it guarantee the cycle?
posted by rubatan at 4:24 AM on October 1 [2 favorites]
...there is an open thread for discussion of US involvement in the Middle East; the topic of this thread is Israel's attacks and terrorism in Lebanon.
I accidentally closed the tab for that thread a while ago; do you have a link? (I always find it really hard to keep track of active threads unless I keep their tabs open indefinitely)
posted by Gadarene at 10:46 AM on October 1 [2 favorites]
I accidentally closed the tab for that thread a while ago; do you have a link? (I always find it really hard to keep track of active threads unless I keep their tabs open indefinitely)
posted by Gadarene at 10:46 AM on October 1 [2 favorites]
Here you go. (Btw have you tried adding threads to your activity (if you haven't commented), and refreshing your Recent Activity page? That's how I do it.)
posted by cendawanita at 11:49 AM on October 1 [5 favorites]
posted by cendawanita at 11:49 AM on October 1 [5 favorites]
Here's the current US involvement in Middle East thread: US and the Middle East
posted by The Great Big Mulp at 11:50 AM on October 1 [4 favorites]
posted by The Great Big Mulp at 11:50 AM on October 1 [4 favorites]
Thanks to both of you (and for the tip, cendawanita)!
posted by Gadarene at 12:05 PM on October 1 [4 favorites]
posted by Gadarene at 12:05 PM on October 1 [4 favorites]
Also, if you remove a thread from your activity, like say because Israel threads become too spammy, then you can always find it again in your contribute/activity/removed.
posted by jeffburdges at 12:28 PM on October 1 [2 favorites]
posted by jeffburdges at 12:28 PM on October 1 [2 favorites]
Israel strikes central Beirut.
Eight Israeli troops killed in Lebanon fighting with Hezbollah.
Many countries are evacuating their citizens from Lebanon, providing chartered flights or offering financial assistance.
The US is leaving Lebanese Americans feeling abandoned. On Wednesday, the administration of President Joe Biden announced that it contracted its first flight to evacuate US citizens from Beirut to Istanbul, nine days after Israel started its offensive in Lebanon.
State Department spokesperson Matthew Miller said the flight carried 100 US citizens – a fraction of the nearly 6,000 Americans who have contacted the US embassy for information and help.
posted by toastyk at 6:46 AM on October 3 [3 favorites]
Eight Israeli troops killed in Lebanon fighting with Hezbollah.
Many countries are evacuating their citizens from Lebanon, providing chartered flights or offering financial assistance.
The US is leaving Lebanese Americans feeling abandoned. On Wednesday, the administration of President Joe Biden announced that it contracted its first flight to evacuate US citizens from Beirut to Istanbul, nine days after Israel started its offensive in Lebanon.
State Department spokesperson Matthew Miller said the flight carried 100 US citizens – a fraction of the nearly 6,000 Americans who have contacted the US embassy for information and help.
posted by toastyk at 6:46 AM on October 3 [3 favorites]
> Eight Israeli troops killed in Lebanon fighting with Hezbollah.
Not just any troops. Elite commandos that represent millions of dollars in investment in training.
The amnesia here is so maddening. Hezbollah emerged out of the 1982 Israeli invasion of Lebanon. What do they think will happen if you invade again? Wipe out all of Hezbollah, sure, then declare victory. You've already lost the next battle, whose soldiers you created by your slaughter. We've seen this again and again and again and again yet for some reason Western elites think "ok but just one more invasion and everything will be settled". It's never settled. You can't kill everyone, even if you want to (as in Gaza).
posted by dis_integration at 7:33 AM on October 3 [9 favorites]
Not just any troops. Elite commandos that represent millions of dollars in investment in training.
The amnesia here is so maddening. Hezbollah emerged out of the 1982 Israeli invasion of Lebanon. What do they think will happen if you invade again? Wipe out all of Hezbollah, sure, then declare victory. You've already lost the next battle, whose soldiers you created by your slaughter. We've seen this again and again and again and again yet for some reason Western elites think "ok but just one more invasion and everything will be settled". It's never settled. You can't kill everyone, even if you want to (as in Gaza).
posted by dis_integration at 7:33 AM on October 3 [9 favorites]
Ok, I'm sorry, I just looked up the ages of these soldiers, and they're all in their early 20s? I have no idea how IDF command works, but I was under the impression that "elite" meant more years of experience? How much training could they possibly have had?
posted by toastyk at 7:43 AM on October 3 [2 favorites]
posted by toastyk at 7:43 AM on October 3 [2 favorites]
The IDF rank inflation/speedy promotion track is real, apparently - I think this year's casualties in Gaza really pushed it into general awareness, but I haven't been looking into the cultural answer as to why, but it kept coming up I can see it's not an anomaly (and potentially an answer to their incredibly bad troop discipline).
posted by cendawanita at 8:13 AM on October 3 [3 favorites]
posted by cendawanita at 8:13 AM on October 3 [3 favorites]
Dozens of health workers killed in Lebanon over past 24 hours, says WHO: "WHO’s representative in Lebanon, Dr Abdinasir Abubakar, said all of the healthcare workers killed in the past day had been on duty, helping with the wounded, Reuters reported."
posted by BungaDunga at 8:41 AM on October 3 [3 favorites]
posted by BungaDunga at 8:41 AM on October 3 [3 favorites]
A total of nearly 2,000 people have been killed, including 127 children, and 9,384 injured since the start of Israeli attacks on Lebanon over the last year,
More than double the number killed by Hamas last year in their incursion . I'm pretty sure that means Lebanon gets to level the infrastructure of Israel now and kill 10s of thousands of residents.
posted by Mitheral at 9:25 AM on October 3 [11 favorites]
More than double the number killed by Hamas last year in their incursion . I'm pretty sure that means Lebanon gets to level the infrastructure of Israel now and kill 10s of thousands of residents.
posted by Mitheral at 9:25 AM on October 3 [11 favorites]
Via Christiane Amanpour's show: Hezbollah leader agreed to temporary ceasefire days before assassination, says Lebanese FM
“He [Nasrallah] agreed, he agreed,” Habib told Christiane Amanpour in an interview aired on Wednesday.
“We agreed completely. Lebanon agreed to a ceasefire but consulting with Hezbollah. The [Lebanese House] Speaker Mr. Nabih Berri consulted with Hezbollah and we informed the Americans and the French what happened. And they told us that Mr. [Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin] Netanyahu also agreed on the statement that was issued by both presidents [Biden and Macron.]”
White House senior adviser Amos Hochstein was then set to go to Lebanon to negotiate the ceasefire, Habib continued.
“They told us that Mr. Netanyahu agreed on this and so we also got the agreement of Hezbollah on that and you know what happened since then,” Habib continued.
which seems to be sorta verified/validated earlier (but the Politico article is shared in the US thread) for example this other CNN piece, Biden administration fears Iranian attack and is working with Israel on defenses, US official says
Biden administration officials are also defending their decision to announce the “breakthrough” of a ceasefire proposal last week between Israel and Hezbollah that quickly turned into an embarrassment for the administration when Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu made clear Israeli forces would instead continue to pound the Lebanese militant group.
US officials argue that Israel changed its mind Wednesday night after the proposal – which was signed onto by 11 other allies - was announced. Israel decided they had an opportunity to target Nasrallah, a US official said.
The US official told CNN the US-led statement issued Wednesday had been greenlit by Israel after working on it together for several days. On a hastily-arranged call that night, senior Biden administration officials told reporters with confidence: “the ceasefire will be for 21 days” across the Lebanon-Israel border.
They believed it would go into effect quickly so that diplomatic efforts could take over to lead to a more permanent truce.
But hours later Netanyahu said Israel “will continue to hit Hezbollah with all our might.”
Israeli officials tried to explain what happened as an “honest misunderstanding.”
(fwiw, reports along the border indicates that the IDF is picking firefights with both the non-state actor Hezbollah and the actual state actor, the Lebanese army - and way way out of scope of this thread, ICYMI, the IDF also struck the Russian port in Syria. I can't keep up with all these fronts.)
In addition to the Al-Jazeera reporting about abandoned Americans, Zeteo: 'We Were Let Down:' US Marine Abandoned in Lebanon by President Biden -
Thousands of Americans stranded as Israel drops US-bombs and other nations organize airlifts.
Eventually Rashida Tlaib and her office managed to successfully compel the State Dept to get him out, and they did, but only him without his wife... and only up to Istanbul.)
New York Magazine: ‘They Hit Everyone and Anyone’ - From Lebanon, residents share what life has been like since Israel launched its attack.
(remember what I said how unlike Palestine, Lebanon is full of foreign press?)
People are afraid to spend too much time on their phones. They could blow up.The pager and walkie-talkie explosions made many across Lebanon fear that their ordinary electronic devices would to be turned into lethal weapons by Israel. We hear stories from Gaza. That you could be in a group chat with 200 people on WhatsApp, and if someone is under suspicion, it will make you a target, too. Our village has a volunteer group that updates us with local news. Everyone from the village is in it. Now we’re afraid of these groups. We’re afraid to keep in touch. We’re living with more than 20 family members in someone else’s house, far from our village, in the north of Lebanon. So we also have no work or school to keep us busy. But we can’t lose hope. We in South Lebanon have been through many wars.
I work in a company that sells aluminum construction materials. Since the beginning of Israel’s aggression on Gaza, it has been very difficult in the south. We lost about 60 percent of our work. People were afraid to build houses or start projects. They have been very affected psychologically by the constant sound of bombings by Israeli airplanes. We debated whether to leave or not. But we had to work. We needed an income. My mom has late-stage breast cancer. It’s her second time. How are we supposed to pay for her treatment if we don’t keep working?
Nesrine Malik in the Guardian: With Gaza in ruins and Lebanon under siege, what defence remains for Israel’s actions?
posted by cendawanita at 10:36 AM on October 3 [9 favorites]
“He [Nasrallah] agreed, he agreed,” Habib told Christiane Amanpour in an interview aired on Wednesday.
“We agreed completely. Lebanon agreed to a ceasefire but consulting with Hezbollah. The [Lebanese House] Speaker Mr. Nabih Berri consulted with Hezbollah and we informed the Americans and the French what happened. And they told us that Mr. [Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin] Netanyahu also agreed on the statement that was issued by both presidents [Biden and Macron.]”
White House senior adviser Amos Hochstein was then set to go to Lebanon to negotiate the ceasefire, Habib continued.
“They told us that Mr. Netanyahu agreed on this and so we also got the agreement of Hezbollah on that and you know what happened since then,” Habib continued.
which seems to be sorta verified/validated earlier (but the Politico article is shared in the US thread) for example this other CNN piece, Biden administration fears Iranian attack and is working with Israel on defenses, US official says
Biden administration officials are also defending their decision to announce the “breakthrough” of a ceasefire proposal last week between Israel and Hezbollah that quickly turned into an embarrassment for the administration when Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu made clear Israeli forces would instead continue to pound the Lebanese militant group.
US officials argue that Israel changed its mind Wednesday night after the proposal – which was signed onto by 11 other allies - was announced. Israel decided they had an opportunity to target Nasrallah, a US official said.
The US official told CNN the US-led statement issued Wednesday had been greenlit by Israel after working on it together for several days. On a hastily-arranged call that night, senior Biden administration officials told reporters with confidence: “the ceasefire will be for 21 days” across the Lebanon-Israel border.
They believed it would go into effect quickly so that diplomatic efforts could take over to lead to a more permanent truce.
But hours later Netanyahu said Israel “will continue to hit Hezbollah with all our might.”
Israeli officials tried to explain what happened as an “honest misunderstanding.”
(fwiw, reports along the border indicates that the IDF is picking firefights with both the non-state actor Hezbollah and the actual state actor, the Lebanese army - and way way out of scope of this thread, ICYMI, the IDF also struck the Russian port in Syria. I can't keep up with all these fronts.)
In addition to the Al-Jazeera reporting about abandoned Americans, Zeteo: 'We Were Let Down:' US Marine Abandoned in Lebanon by President Biden -
Thousands of Americans stranded as Israel drops US-bombs and other nations organize airlifts.
Eventually Rashida Tlaib and her office managed to successfully compel the State Dept to get him out, and they did, but only him without his wife... and only up to Istanbul.)
New York Magazine: ‘They Hit Everyone and Anyone’ - From Lebanon, residents share what life has been like since Israel launched its attack.
(remember what I said how unlike Palestine, Lebanon is full of foreign press?)
People are afraid to spend too much time on their phones. They could blow up.The pager and walkie-talkie explosions made many across Lebanon fear that their ordinary electronic devices would to be turned into lethal weapons by Israel. We hear stories from Gaza. That you could be in a group chat with 200 people on WhatsApp, and if someone is under suspicion, it will make you a target, too. Our village has a volunteer group that updates us with local news. Everyone from the village is in it. Now we’re afraid of these groups. We’re afraid to keep in touch. We’re living with more than 20 family members in someone else’s house, far from our village, in the north of Lebanon. So we also have no work or school to keep us busy. But we can’t lose hope. We in South Lebanon have been through many wars.
I work in a company that sells aluminum construction materials. Since the beginning of Israel’s aggression on Gaza, it has been very difficult in the south. We lost about 60 percent of our work. People were afraid to build houses or start projects. They have been very affected psychologically by the constant sound of bombings by Israeli airplanes. We debated whether to leave or not. But we had to work. We needed an income. My mom has late-stage breast cancer. It’s her second time. How are we supposed to pay for her treatment if we don’t keep working?
Nesrine Malik in the Guardian: With Gaza in ruins and Lebanon under siege, what defence remains for Israel’s actions?
posted by cendawanita at 10:36 AM on October 3 [9 favorites]
Israeli army says it has smoke shells that contain white phosphorus but doesn't say if they were used in Beirut
dropping white phosphorus on Beirut seems like it would be straightforwardly a war crime, what possible military purpose would it have?
posted by BungaDunga at 2:11 PM on October 3 [4 favorites]
dropping white phosphorus on Beirut seems like it would be straightforwardly a war crime, what possible military purpose would it have?
posted by BungaDunga at 2:11 PM on October 3 [4 favorites]
Netanyahu, building the pan-Arab league one war crime at a time.
posted by corb at 2:19 PM on October 3 [9 favorites]
posted by corb at 2:19 PM on October 3 [9 favorites]
They've been dropping white phosphorus on southern Lebanon for months now, largely to start fires and drive people away from the border.
posted by adrienneleigh at 2:49 PM on October 3 [4 favorites]
posted by adrienneleigh at 2:49 PM on October 3 [4 favorites]
Netanyahu, building the pan-Arab league one war crime at a time.
On THAT note: Sina Toosi (with photos and video) - Something tells me this isn’t the “new Middle East” Netanyahu wants:
Just a day after Iran’s missile attack, Saudi Arabia’s Foreign Minister meets with Iran’s president, declaring that Saudi Arabia wants to “permanently close the chapter on our differences.”
Echoing similar articles, The Intercept: U.S. Citizens in Lebanon “Abandoned” by the State Department as Israel Invades -
The State Department coordinated massive evacuations from Lebanon in 2006 and Egypt in 2011. What’s different now?
No comment re: the relevance of that subheader to a tangent in this thread.
Boston Review: The View from Besieged Beirut
On September 19, while Hassan Nasrallah, the leader of Hezbollah, was giving a speech from an undisclosed location, low-flying Israeli warplanes again caused a terrifying sonic boom in the city. It rattled windows and sent everyone rushing to balconies and into the streets, triggering old memories of unresolved fears and traumas. These accumulate like archaeological layers here, another facet of the historical and geological layers of Beirut—a city once known to the Romans as nutrix legum, “Mother of the Laws.” In recent years, the law has also become a casualty of Lebanon’s political dysfunction.
The Israeli show of force was many things at once: in part a tactic to see if Nasrallah would react to the boom (though some claim his addresses have been pre-recorded), but also part performance, an exercise of psychological warfare unleashed on an already distressed population—trapped between a militia–cum–political party operating at the behest of Iran, a morally bankrupt and inept ruling political class, and a Western leadership so morally decadent that it has largely accepted, without much protest, Israel’s callous, self-declared intent to “escalate to de-escalate.”
Double tapping but make it Lebanese: (Guardian) Lebanese healthcare workers fearful as growing numbers killed in strikes - At least 50 paramedics have been killed in Lebanon over the last two weeks
Paramedics say they began to notice a pattern with the strikes: whenever they arrived at a location to start rescue operations, they said Israeli airstrikes would follow. In one case, in the town of Suhmoor in the western Bekaa valley on Monday last week, an ambulance was struck directly after the team left the car. Pictures of the vehicle engulfed in flames circulated in Lebanese media.
Meanwhile, paramedics have begun receiving strange calls with a voice speaking Arabic on the other end, warning them to evacuate their medical centres, said Rabih Issah, a local commissioner of Islamic Kashafat al-Risala medical organisation that serves much of south Lebanon.
Last Wednesday, paramedics in two different villages received calls, forcing the workers to stop their work and evacuate, though the buildings were not bombed. Unlike the wave of Israeli calls that warned 80,000 Lebanese to distance themselves from buildings it alleged contained Hezbollah weapons ahead of Israel’s aerial campaign in south Lebanon the week before, these warnings were directed only at the medical workers.
New Isaac Chotiner interview, with Andrew Miller:
IC: There had been talk about a ceasefire between Hezbollah and Israel last week. The White House said it thought that Israel had agreed to some version of one—which has happened a number of times with the ceasefire talks in Gaza—but then Hassan Nasrallah, the leader of Hezbollah, was assassinated, and it all fell apart. You even had John Kirby, the spokesman for the National Security Council, who is seen as one of the more hawkish members of the Administration, say that Israel was “fully informed and fully aware of every word” in the proposal, implying that Israel had pulled the rug out at the last minute.
AM: They were discussing a temporary ceasefire of twenty-one days. It’s possible that the Biden Administration misunderstood Netanyahu, but I think it’s much more likely that there was some degree of misdirection on the part of the Israelis. And as you mentioned, we’ve seen this time and again, including in Gaza, where I had more inside knowledge, I know that Netanyahu would indeed accept certain terms and then would come out and say something that was ostensibly inconsistent with that agreement.
The real question is whether Hezbollah was prepared to accept the twenty-one-day ceasefire. The indications that I’ve seen are that they were. The ceasefire would at least have bought an opportunity to explore whether a ceasefire in Gaza could be reached, too. And Hezbollah has long said, since they intervened in the conflict, that they would be willing to discuss ending their firing into Israel only after there’s a ceasefire in Gaza. So the failure of a ceasefire in Gaza effectively precluded a ceasefire in Lebanon, which could have paved the way for a diplomatic solution to conflict in both locations.
IC: There’s a piece out in Politico this week that essentially reports that though the U.S. isn’t pushing a war between Israel and Lebanon, the Administration is somewhat happy with action against Hezbollah in Lebanon. Is the Administration being used, or is it at some level happy with Israeli strategy and maybe just doesn’t want to say so?
AM: I think there are two possibilities, and they’re not mutually exclusive. One could be that this is an attempt to rationalize why our inability to persuade the Israelis not to launch the invasion isn’t so bad after all—so it doesn’t appear as such a slap from Netanyahu. The other possibility is that the individuals in the Administration who were referenced in the Politico article genuinely believe that this is an opportunity for Israel to deal a crippling blow to Hezbollah. I certainly can’t discount that. [The article identifies Presidential adviser Amos Hochstein and White House coördinator for the Middle East and North Africa Brett McGurk as two officials who believe this.]
And, while I think we all should be skeptical of the idea of positive long-term effects of any tactical military action, it is interesting and noteworthy that the response by both Hezbollah and Iran to major blows to Hezbollah has not been at the magnitude we would’ve previously expected. Now, I know there’s reporting that an Iranian missile attack may be imminent, and if that happens then that line of argument falls apart. [The Iranian missile attack occurred during our interview.]
posted by cendawanita at 8:04 PM on October 3 [6 favorites]
On THAT note: Sina Toosi (with photos and video) - Something tells me this isn’t the “new Middle East” Netanyahu wants:
Just a day after Iran’s missile attack, Saudi Arabia’s Foreign Minister meets with Iran’s president, declaring that Saudi Arabia wants to “permanently close the chapter on our differences.”
Echoing similar articles, The Intercept: U.S. Citizens in Lebanon “Abandoned” by the State Department as Israel Invades -
The State Department coordinated massive evacuations from Lebanon in 2006 and Egypt in 2011. What’s different now?
No comment re: the relevance of that subheader to a tangent in this thread.
Boston Review: The View from Besieged Beirut
On September 19, while Hassan Nasrallah, the leader of Hezbollah, was giving a speech from an undisclosed location, low-flying Israeli warplanes again caused a terrifying sonic boom in the city. It rattled windows and sent everyone rushing to balconies and into the streets, triggering old memories of unresolved fears and traumas. These accumulate like archaeological layers here, another facet of the historical and geological layers of Beirut—a city once known to the Romans as nutrix legum, “Mother of the Laws.” In recent years, the law has also become a casualty of Lebanon’s political dysfunction.
The Israeli show of force was many things at once: in part a tactic to see if Nasrallah would react to the boom (though some claim his addresses have been pre-recorded), but also part performance, an exercise of psychological warfare unleashed on an already distressed population—trapped between a militia–cum–political party operating at the behest of Iran, a morally bankrupt and inept ruling political class, and a Western leadership so morally decadent that it has largely accepted, without much protest, Israel’s callous, self-declared intent to “escalate to de-escalate.”
Double tapping but make it Lebanese: (Guardian) Lebanese healthcare workers fearful as growing numbers killed in strikes - At least 50 paramedics have been killed in Lebanon over the last two weeks
Paramedics say they began to notice a pattern with the strikes: whenever they arrived at a location to start rescue operations, they said Israeli airstrikes would follow. In one case, in the town of Suhmoor in the western Bekaa valley on Monday last week, an ambulance was struck directly after the team left the car. Pictures of the vehicle engulfed in flames circulated in Lebanese media.
Meanwhile, paramedics have begun receiving strange calls with a voice speaking Arabic on the other end, warning them to evacuate their medical centres, said Rabih Issah, a local commissioner of Islamic Kashafat al-Risala medical organisation that serves much of south Lebanon.
Last Wednesday, paramedics in two different villages received calls, forcing the workers to stop their work and evacuate, though the buildings were not bombed. Unlike the wave of Israeli calls that warned 80,000 Lebanese to distance themselves from buildings it alleged contained Hezbollah weapons ahead of Israel’s aerial campaign in south Lebanon the week before, these warnings were directed only at the medical workers.
New Isaac Chotiner interview, with Andrew Miller:
IC: There had been talk about a ceasefire between Hezbollah and Israel last week. The White House said it thought that Israel had agreed to some version of one—which has happened a number of times with the ceasefire talks in Gaza—but then Hassan Nasrallah, the leader of Hezbollah, was assassinated, and it all fell apart. You even had John Kirby, the spokesman for the National Security Council, who is seen as one of the more hawkish members of the Administration, say that Israel was “fully informed and fully aware of every word” in the proposal, implying that Israel had pulled the rug out at the last minute.
AM: They were discussing a temporary ceasefire of twenty-one days. It’s possible that the Biden Administration misunderstood Netanyahu, but I think it’s much more likely that there was some degree of misdirection on the part of the Israelis. And as you mentioned, we’ve seen this time and again, including in Gaza, where I had more inside knowledge, I know that Netanyahu would indeed accept certain terms and then would come out and say something that was ostensibly inconsistent with that agreement.
The real question is whether Hezbollah was prepared to accept the twenty-one-day ceasefire. The indications that I’ve seen are that they were. The ceasefire would at least have bought an opportunity to explore whether a ceasefire in Gaza could be reached, too. And Hezbollah has long said, since they intervened in the conflict, that they would be willing to discuss ending their firing into Israel only after there’s a ceasefire in Gaza. So the failure of a ceasefire in Gaza effectively precluded a ceasefire in Lebanon, which could have paved the way for a diplomatic solution to conflict in both locations.
IC: There’s a piece out in Politico this week that essentially reports that though the U.S. isn’t pushing a war between Israel and Lebanon, the Administration is somewhat happy with action against Hezbollah in Lebanon. Is the Administration being used, or is it at some level happy with Israeli strategy and maybe just doesn’t want to say so?
AM: I think there are two possibilities, and they’re not mutually exclusive. One could be that this is an attempt to rationalize why our inability to persuade the Israelis not to launch the invasion isn’t so bad after all—so it doesn’t appear as such a slap from Netanyahu. The other possibility is that the individuals in the Administration who were referenced in the Politico article genuinely believe that this is an opportunity for Israel to deal a crippling blow to Hezbollah. I certainly can’t discount that. [The article identifies Presidential adviser Amos Hochstein and White House coördinator for the Middle East and North Africa Brett McGurk as two officials who believe this.]
And, while I think we all should be skeptical of the idea of positive long-term effects of any tactical military action, it is interesting and noteworthy that the response by both Hezbollah and Iran to major blows to Hezbollah has not been at the magnitude we would’ve previously expected. Now, I know there’s reporting that an Iranian missile attack may be imminent, and if that happens then that line of argument falls apart. [The Iranian missile attack occurred during our interview.]
posted by cendawanita at 8:04 PM on October 3 [6 favorites]
News article coverage of that Leon Panetta moment: (TNR) Even Leon Panetta Says Israel’s Pager Attack Is “Terrorism” - Former CIA Director Leon Panetta didn’t mince words about Israel’s pager attacks.
posted by cendawanita at 8:14 PM on October 3 [8 favorites]
posted by cendawanita at 8:14 PM on October 3 [8 favorites]
Double tapping but make it Lebanese
BBC:
BBC:
"Israel has threatened to strike Lebanese search and rescue teams if they go to the southern suburbs of Beirut to help those trapped under the rubble, according to Lebanon’s Civil Defence.posted by BungaDunga at 10:54 AM on October 4 [10 favorites]
Following Israel’s massive strike on a residential neighbourhood in Dahieh overnight, the Civil Defence – administered by the Ministry of Interior - received a call saying any teams heading to the area within 72 hours of the attack will be struck, they told the BBC.
Lebanon’s national news agency said the Prime Minister Najib Mikati has made several calls to foreign officials asking them to pressure Israel to allow search and rescue teams to do their work.
Israel has hit rescue teams and health workers across south Lebanon and in Beirut, killing and wounding dozens. Yesterday the Lebanese minister of health said Israel had killed 97 health and search and rescue workers so far and injured 188."
even making that threat has to be some sort of war crime?
posted by BungaDunga at 10:56 AM on October 4 [9 favorites]
posted by BungaDunga at 10:56 AM on October 4 [9 favorites]
Meanwhile, the Irish know how to treat invaders.
posted by adrienneleigh at 1:43 PM on October 4 [3 favorites]
posted by adrienneleigh at 1:43 PM on October 4 [3 favorites]
Also meanwhile, Israel has shelled two hospitals in South Lebanon with heavy artillery today, and is reportedly blocking ambulances from evacuating wounded patients and staff.
posted by adrienneleigh at 2:35 PM on October 4 [5 favorites]
posted by adrienneleigh at 2:35 PM on October 4 [5 favorites]
Notice that Israel is now no longer even bothering with the pretense that when it bombs hospitals and rescue workers it is because they had "legitimate reasons" to think those people were really double top secret terrorists.
Now they just say they're bombing hospitals and will bomb any search and rescue teams. Their evil urge to do the maximum harm possible is horrifying, and the fact that the world is permitting it is even more horrifying.
You know all those people who keep belligerently demanding to know if we think Israel has a right to exist? Now, I don't even know WTF they think they mean when they ask that, and I'm not really sure they do either. It seems to be not a question but rather a demand for an affirmation of loyalty to their ideology.
But? Whatever they mean, every bomb Israel drops on a hospital edges me closer to "no".
posted by sotonohito at 5:42 PM on October 4 [11 favorites]
Now they just say they're bombing hospitals and will bomb any search and rescue teams. Their evil urge to do the maximum harm possible is horrifying, and the fact that the world is permitting it is even more horrifying.
You know all those people who keep belligerently demanding to know if we think Israel has a right to exist? Now, I don't even know WTF they think they mean when they ask that, and I'm not really sure they do either. It seems to be not a question but rather a demand for an affirmation of loyalty to their ideology.
But? Whatever they mean, every bomb Israel drops on a hospital edges me closer to "no".
posted by sotonohito at 5:42 PM on October 4 [11 favorites]
fairly fresh WH stenographer reporting:
Axios: Scoop: U.S. wants to use Hezbollah's weakness to elect new Lebanese president
- In recent days, Lebanon's acting prime minister Najib Mikati told President Biden's adviser Amos Hochstein he wants to move forward with the plan the U.S. laid out in June for a diplomatic solution in Lebanon.
- Hochstein told Mikati that the proposal "is off the table" because the conditions on the ground have changed in the last two weeks due to the increased fighting between Israel and Hezbollah, the U.S. officials said.
- Instead, Hochstein told Mikati the priority should be electing a new president.
ICYMI, as shared in the US in the Middle East thread, you need these two new exposes to read together to contextualize all these sausagemaking news retrospectively and proactively:
Reuters: Special Report: Emails show early US concerns over Gaza offensive, risk of Israeli war crimes (early as in 'October 2023' early)
ProPublica: Inside the State Department’s Weapons Pipeline to Israel
As there's nothing to indicate the change in national territory is changing the US-Israel policy strategy.
posted by cendawanita at 11:20 PM on October 4 [4 favorites]
Axios: Scoop: U.S. wants to use Hezbollah's weakness to elect new Lebanese president
- In recent days, Lebanon's acting prime minister Najib Mikati told President Biden's adviser Amos Hochstein he wants to move forward with the plan the U.S. laid out in June for a diplomatic solution in Lebanon.
- Hochstein told Mikati that the proposal "is off the table" because the conditions on the ground have changed in the last two weeks due to the increased fighting between Israel and Hezbollah, the U.S. officials said.
- Instead, Hochstein told Mikati the priority should be electing a new president.
ICYMI, as shared in the US in the Middle East thread, you need these two new exposes to read together to contextualize all these sausagemaking news retrospectively and proactively:
Reuters: Special Report: Emails show early US concerns over Gaza offensive, risk of Israeli war crimes (early as in 'October 2023' early)
ProPublica: Inside the State Department’s Weapons Pipeline to Israel
As there's nothing to indicate the change in national territory is changing the US-Israel policy strategy.
posted by cendawanita at 11:20 PM on October 4 [4 favorites]
RFI (in French): Macron is calling for an arms embargo
posted by cendawanita at 7:13 AM on October 5 [3 favorites]
posted by cendawanita at 7:13 AM on October 5 [3 favorites]
Irish Times: Ireland and Unifil reject Israel’s request to remove peacekeepers from Lebanese border outpost
posted by cendawanita at 7:15 AM on October 5 [2 favorites]
posted by cendawanita at 7:15 AM on October 5 [2 favorites]
DW: Israel may be using German-leased Heron war drones-
Two Israeli-built Heron drones, leased by the Bundeswehr at great expense years ago are still in Israel, apparently being paid for by Germany. Observers fear they are being used in the war in Gaza and in Lebanon.
posted by cendawanita at 7:19 AM on October 5 [2 favorites]
Two Israeli-built Heron drones, leased by the Bundeswehr at great expense years ago are still in Israel, apparently being paid for by Germany. Observers fear they are being used in the war in Gaza and in Lebanon.
posted by cendawanita at 7:19 AM on October 5 [2 favorites]
WaPo Exclusive explains Moussad started planning the pager attack in 2022.
"Parts of the plan began falling into place more than a year before Hamas’s Oct. 7 attack that put the region on a path to war. It was a time of relative quiet on Israel’s war-scarred northern border with Lebanon..." with "booby-trapped walkie-talkies, began being inserted into Lebanon by Mossad nearly a decade ago, in 2015."
Authors Souad Mekhennet & Joby Warrick also extol the plan, that may qualify as a war crime, in glowing terms: "ingeniously crafted Israeli bomb," "feat of engineering, " and "As an act of spy craft, it is without parallel, one of the most successful and inventive penetrations of an enemy by an intelligence service in recent history."
TRIGGER WARNING: Article quotes contain graphic description
In a 2100 word article, only 7 are used to mention a potentially negative side effect:
"Parts of the plan began falling into place more than a year before Hamas’s Oct. 7 attack that put the region on a path to war. It was a time of relative quiet on Israel’s war-scarred northern border with Lebanon..." with "booby-trapped walkie-talkies, began being inserted into Lebanon by Mossad nearly a decade ago, in 2015."
Authors Souad Mekhennet & Joby Warrick also extol the plan, that may qualify as a war crime, in glowing terms: "ingeniously crafted Israeli bomb," "feat of engineering, " and "As an act of spy craft, it is without parallel, one of the most successful and inventive penetrations of an enemy by an intelligence service in recent history."
TRIGGER WARNING: Article quotes contain graphic description
[Click for article quotes]
•"But, to ensure maximum damage, the blast could also be triggered by a special two-step procedure required for viewing secure messages that had been encrypted."
•"Ultimately, Netanyahu approved triggering the devices while they could inflict maximum damage [before being discovered]."
•"...few appreciated the pagers’ most sinister feature: a two-step de-encryption procedure that ensured most users would be holding the pager with both hands when it detonated."
•"A short sentence in Arabic appeared on the screen: 'You received an encrypted message,' it said.
Hezbollah operatives dutifully followed the instructions for checking coded messages, pressing two buttons. In houses and shops, in cars and on sidewalks, explosions ripped apart hands and blew away fingers. Less than a minute later, thousands of other pagers exploded by remote command, regardless of whether the user ever touched his device.
The following day, on Sept. 18, hundreds of walkie-talkies blew up in the same way, killing and maiming users and bystanders.
It was the first of a series of blows aimed at the heart of one of Israel’s most ardent foes. As Hezbollah reeled, Israel struck again, pounding the group’s headquarters, arsenals and logistic centers with 2,000-pound bombs."
In a 2100 word article, only 7 are used to mention a potentially negative side effect:
"As many as 3,000 Hezbollah officers and members — most of them rear-echelon figures — were killed or maimed, along with an unknown number of civilians, according to Israeli, U.S. and Middle Eastern officials, when Israel’s Mossad intelligence service triggered the devices remotely on Sept. 17.posted by rubatan at 10:18 PM on October 6 [3 favorites]
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posted by pattern juggler at 4:08 PM on September 17 [113 favorites]