More detail about Springfield and Haitians
September 18, 2024 4:43 AM Subscribe
Moral outrage at the big lie, but also plenty about why many Haitians are there, the transition costs, and their good effects on Springfield. I thought there was a government program to move Haitians to Springfield. No. There was a government program to move businesses to Springfield, followed by figuring out that there was a shortage of people of working age, and Haitians moved into the vacuum to everyone's advantage.
I'm worried that Magats could destroy Springfield even if Trump loses.
I'm worried that Magats could destroy Springfield even if Trump loses.
Haitians generally don’t learn to drive in Haiti and their inability to drive here in Ohio put them at a huge disadvantage as far as working and school and just getting around in general. This is a great example of why we need better public transportation in the US rather than incentivizing more people to drive by providing funds toward driving lessons and buying vehicles, a good start would be to put investment into buses and trains. Meanwhile, those who wish to drive can certainly do so and not be basically detained in Springfield because they can’t get out.
Every day on the news they are talking about all these lies that Trump and Vance are spreading and how the Springfield police chief has stated there has been no evidence that Haitians are eating pets. They were invited here by the governor, but obviously that doesn’t matter to MAGA.
posted by waving at 5:49 AM on September 18 [12 favorites]
Every day on the news they are talking about all these lies that Trump and Vance are spreading and how the Springfield police chief has stated there has been no evidence that Haitians are eating pets. They were invited here by the governor, but obviously that doesn’t matter to MAGA.
posted by waving at 5:49 AM on September 18 [12 favorites]
What Happens in Springfield Won’t Stay in Springfield [NYT gift link]:
Seven years ago, a group of white supremacists marched through Charlottesville, Va., under the banner of “Unite the Right.” On their first night, they held a torchlight rally on the front steps of the Rotunda at the University of Virginia, where they chanted slogans such as “You will not replace us.” The next day, an even larger group of white supremacists and neo-Nazis rioted throughout the city’s downtown. One of them drove a Dodge Challenger through a group of counterprotesters, killing a young activist, Heather Heyer, and injuring several other demonstrators.
The reason Unite the Right marchers were screaming the slogan “you will not replace us” (and, intermittently, “Jews will not replace us”) was their devotion to the idea of the so-called great replacement, the once-fringe conspiracy theory that liberals and their allies are importing immigrants into the United States to replace the white population. Now something like this is part of the Republican mainstream; Vance told Ohio voters two years ago, during his campaign for Senate, that President Biden had opened the border, “with more illegal drugs and more Democrat voters pouring into this country.” His tirades against Haitian immigrants are simply more of the same.
Of course, being the New York Times, if you Ctrl-F for "racist", "fascism", and "anti-semitic" you will get zero results. "Nazi" is used only once (it's in the excerpt I pulled). And, of course, Trump and Vance never "lie" or "are liars", instead they smear the Haitians of Springfield with the lie or spread the additional lie or expand the lie even further or confessed to elevating rumors and lies.
You can tell I'm not a NYT-caliber objective reporter because I object to kid gloves for second-chance fascists.
posted by AlSweigart at 6:33 AM on September 18 [22 favorites]
Seven years ago, a group of white supremacists marched through Charlottesville, Va., under the banner of “Unite the Right.” On their first night, they held a torchlight rally on the front steps of the Rotunda at the University of Virginia, where they chanted slogans such as “You will not replace us.” The next day, an even larger group of white supremacists and neo-Nazis rioted throughout the city’s downtown. One of them drove a Dodge Challenger through a group of counterprotesters, killing a young activist, Heather Heyer, and injuring several other demonstrators.
The reason Unite the Right marchers were screaming the slogan “you will not replace us” (and, intermittently, “Jews will not replace us”) was their devotion to the idea of the so-called great replacement, the once-fringe conspiracy theory that liberals and their allies are importing immigrants into the United States to replace the white population. Now something like this is part of the Republican mainstream; Vance told Ohio voters two years ago, during his campaign for Senate, that President Biden had opened the border, “with more illegal drugs and more Democrat voters pouring into this country.” His tirades against Haitian immigrants are simply more of the same.
Of course, being the New York Times, if you Ctrl-F for "racist", "fascism", and "anti-semitic" you will get zero results. "Nazi" is used only once (it's in the excerpt I pulled). And, of course, Trump and Vance never "lie" or "are liars", instead they smear the Haitians of Springfield with the lie or spread the additional lie or expand the lie even further or confessed to elevating rumors and lies.
You can tell I'm not a NYT-caliber objective reporter because I object to kid gloves for second-chance fascists.
posted by AlSweigart at 6:33 AM on September 18 [22 favorites]
This Springfield/Haitian thing is classic Trump, no? Something that's false, wrong and bad on several levels, but meme-y. Anti-Trumpers recoil and fume, MAGAts smirk and jeer, but Trump stays above the fold in the popular media, and everyone talks about it. Winning.
I do appreciate the intent and the efforts behind this post, and the Watch article. I found it informative. I'm just sad that such articles still help Trump achieve his goal of staying top of mind with everyone.
In the coming election, I would have thought that "not Trump" is sufficient to elect a tuna sandwich. Apparently not. We're just so numb to outrageous behaviour from TFG that it no longer really registers. Over the past week the press has been throwing shade on the Harris campaign, with gloomy riffs on polling. Today I read a hand-wringing article that she's light on policy... as if Trump has ever had many coherent policies besides "America first!", less tax on the wealthy, something about a wall, and demonizing immigrants. Trump has been normalized.
posted by Artful Codger at 6:57 AM on September 18 [8 favorites]
I do appreciate the intent and the efforts behind this post, and the Watch article. I found it informative. I'm just sad that such articles still help Trump achieve his goal of staying top of mind with everyone.
In the coming election, I would have thought that "not Trump" is sufficient to elect a tuna sandwich. Apparently not. We're just so numb to outrageous behaviour from TFG that it no longer really registers. Over the past week the press has been throwing shade on the Harris campaign, with gloomy riffs on polling. Today I read a hand-wringing article that she's light on policy... as if Trump has ever had many coherent policies besides "America first!", less tax on the wealthy, something about a wall, and demonizing immigrants. Trump has been normalized.
posted by Artful Codger at 6:57 AM on September 18 [8 favorites]
Meanwhile, Vance sent the WSJ a police report about a missing cat as proof of his claims, but they actually a reporter who found the cat safe.
posted by CheeseDigestsAll at 6:58 AM on September 18 [11 favorites]
posted by CheeseDigestsAll at 6:58 AM on September 18 [11 favorites]
Trump and the Republicans leave me believing that immigrants are the most peaceful people ever. You would think that with such a large number of people it would be possible to come up with malfeasance they actually commit. Instead during these major events:
Response to the State of the Union, Senator Katie Britt. "I traveled to the Del Rio sector of Texas, where I spoke to a woman who shared her story with me. She had been sex trafficked by the cartels starting at age 12. She told me not just that she was raped every day, but how many times a day she was raped. The cartels put her on a mattress in a shoebox of a room, and they sent men through that door, over and over again, for hours and hours on end. We wouldn’t be OK with this happening in a third-world country."
Only this incident took place in Mexico back when Bush, Jr. was president.
Trump's Declaration of a State of National Emergency regarding the Mexican border (March 2019). He cited the case of El Salvadoran gang members killing an innocent teenage woman. The actual story was one male gang member killing another male gang member. (Not so sensational, but homebred gangs do it.)
When Trump declared his run for president in 2015 he gave the example of an immigrant who had been deported several times shooting to death a woman like a mad dog. The one bullet fired traveled 60 feet after it ricocheted and hit her. He was found not guilty.
And we all know Trump's debate with Harris and the lies were even more unhinged.
These incidents are being presented at major events, and you would think that if they wanted to point to immigrants causing mayhem, they could have scoured the world and come up with something that is true.
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 7:20 AM on September 18 [7 favorites]
Response to the State of the Union, Senator Katie Britt. "I traveled to the Del Rio sector of Texas, where I spoke to a woman who shared her story with me. She had been sex trafficked by the cartels starting at age 12. She told me not just that she was raped every day, but how many times a day she was raped. The cartels put her on a mattress in a shoebox of a room, and they sent men through that door, over and over again, for hours and hours on end. We wouldn’t be OK with this happening in a third-world country."
Only this incident took place in Mexico back when Bush, Jr. was president.
Trump's Declaration of a State of National Emergency regarding the Mexican border (March 2019). He cited the case of El Salvadoran gang members killing an innocent teenage woman. The actual story was one male gang member killing another male gang member. (Not so sensational, but homebred gangs do it.)
When Trump declared his run for president in 2015 he gave the example of an immigrant who had been deported several times shooting to death a woman like a mad dog. The one bullet fired traveled 60 feet after it ricocheted and hit her. He was found not guilty.
And we all know Trump's debate with Harris and the lies were even more unhinged.
These incidents are being presented at major events, and you would think that if they wanted to point to immigrants causing mayhem, they could have scoured the world and come up with something that is true.
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 7:20 AM on September 18 [7 favorites]
You don't need truth. You just need to be talked about, non-stop.
posted by Artful Codger at 7:28 AM on September 18 [5 favorites]
posted by Artful Codger at 7:28 AM on September 18 [5 favorites]
Trump and the Republicans leave me believing that immigrants are the most peaceful people ever.
"[Northwestern University] Study finds over a 150-year period [i.e. beginning with the earliest available comprehensive census data], immigrants have never been incarcerated at a greater rate than those born in the United States ... beginning in 1960, the incarceration gap widened such that immigrants today are 60% less likely to be incarcerated than the U.S.-born ... and 30% less likely relative to U.S. born whites."
Trump's base are literally more likely to be criminals than immigrants are.
posted by jedicus at 7:37 AM on September 18 [23 favorites]
"[Northwestern University] Study finds over a 150-year period [i.e. beginning with the earliest available comprehensive census data], immigrants have never been incarcerated at a greater rate than those born in the United States ... beginning in 1960, the incarceration gap widened such that immigrants today are 60% less likely to be incarcerated than the U.S.-born ... and 30% less likely relative to U.S. born whites."
Trump's base are literally more likely to be criminals than immigrants are.
posted by jedicus at 7:37 AM on September 18 [23 favorites]
The woman who started the rumor is . . . sorry. Oopsies, didn't mean to start a national rumor that is causing real harm to her own town. Says she isn't racist.
posted by hydra77 at 8:12 AM on September 18 [4 favorites]
posted by hydra77 at 8:12 AM on September 18 [4 favorites]
Haitians moving to where the jobs are. So Republicans are upset about the “invisible hand of the market” again, huh? Funny how that works out.
posted by Abehammerb Lincoln at 8:15 AM on September 18 [11 favorites]
posted by Abehammerb Lincoln at 8:15 AM on September 18 [11 favorites]
The woman who started the rumor is . . . sorry.
I hope she gets ostracized and becomes a pariah in her own town. So many people suffered because of one damn fb post.
posted by numaner at 8:18 AM on September 18 [3 favorites]
I hope she gets ostracized and becomes a pariah in her own town. So many people suffered because of one damn fb post.
posted by numaner at 8:18 AM on September 18 [3 favorites]
This Springfield/Haitian thing is classic Trump, no? Something that's false, wrong and bad on several levels, but meme-y. Anti-Trumpers recoil and fume, MAGAts smirk and jeer, but Trump stays above the fold in the popular media, and everyone talks about it.
But Trump is not at all staying above the fold in the popular media.
Watching the debate, the first time Trump brought it up, it was dog-whistle style, a reference to what's going on in Springfield. But in response to goading by Harris, he launched into an explicit "illegal immigrants are eating pets" falsehood. I believe he was coached by his handlers to stick with the former and his lack of discipline led him to do the latter.
Trump has to believe that his speech is always "perfect," so now he's doubling down on the blood libel, and Springfield's residents are paying the price. But as before, Trump's assuaging his own ego can't be helping him appeal to non-horrible people, and he's going to need those votes to win in November.
posted by Gelatin at 8:51 AM on September 18 [1 favorite]
But Trump is not at all staying above the fold in the popular media.
Watching the debate, the first time Trump brought it up, it was dog-whistle style, a reference to what's going on in Springfield. But in response to goading by Harris, he launched into an explicit "illegal immigrants are eating pets" falsehood. I believe he was coached by his handlers to stick with the former and his lack of discipline led him to do the latter.
Trump has to believe that his speech is always "perfect," so now he's doubling down on the blood libel, and Springfield's residents are paying the price. But as before, Trump's assuaging his own ego can't be helping him appeal to non-horrible people, and he's going to need those votes to win in November.
posted by Gelatin at 8:51 AM on September 18 [1 favorite]
My level of hatred for the NYT and it’s followers in the national political media grows every single day. Why don’t they post a zillion stories about Trump/Vance inciting a pogram? Talk to one fucking Haitian in Springfield? Cause They want trump to win. I don’t really care anymore why.
Bluesky contributors daily detail the endless sanewashing of trump’s demented idiocy. The NYT deepsixing of basically anything negative of him. It’s beyond enraging.
Yup they’ll do a Tuesday afternoon ‘reluctant’ endorsement of the VP which will disappear in two hours to be replaced by yet another republican spewing about what the VP must do to earn his vote (eg invent nuclear fusion, as if staving off a dictatorship isn’t enough).
Then the Magats and their representatives successfully throw the election to the gang of six due to violence in Nevada arizona Michigan Georgia and the traitor gets installed (they’ll ‘follow’ the constitution for once and kick the thing to the House of Reps where red states outnumber blue states - cause yea Californias 40 million people count the same as Wyoming’s 12). After the VP wipes the floor with a 10 million vote popular majority, the NYT will write endless stories about the majesty of the founders saving the country from an electoral crises. And that we all need to fall in line behind americas first dictator as he begins the deportation hell.
Fuck them I hope they get the same thing they are facilitating for innocents like these Haitians.
Sorry for massive detail but all immigrants to this country are a huge net plus. Everyone with a heart and/or a brain knows that. This should not be happening to them.
posted by WatTylerJr at 8:52 AM on September 18 [17 favorites]
Bluesky contributors daily detail the endless sanewashing of trump’s demented idiocy. The NYT deepsixing of basically anything negative of him. It’s beyond enraging.
Yup they’ll do a Tuesday afternoon ‘reluctant’ endorsement of the VP which will disappear in two hours to be replaced by yet another republican spewing about what the VP must do to earn his vote (eg invent nuclear fusion, as if staving off a dictatorship isn’t enough).
Then the Magats and their representatives successfully throw the election to the gang of six due to violence in Nevada arizona Michigan Georgia and the traitor gets installed (they’ll ‘follow’ the constitution for once and kick the thing to the House of Reps where red states outnumber blue states - cause yea Californias 40 million people count the same as Wyoming’s 12). After the VP wipes the floor with a 10 million vote popular majority, the NYT will write endless stories about the majesty of the founders saving the country from an electoral crises. And that we all need to fall in line behind americas first dictator as he begins the deportation hell.
Fuck them I hope they get the same thing they are facilitating for innocents like these Haitians.
Sorry for massive detail but all immigrants to this country are a huge net plus. Everyone with a heart and/or a brain knows that. This should not be happening to them.
posted by WatTylerJr at 8:52 AM on September 18 [17 favorites]
But Trump is not at all staying above the fold in the popular media.
...I believe he was coached by his handlers to stick with the former and his lack of discipline led him to do the latter.
Maybe "popular media" was the wrong term. How about just "front page"? If I go to: CNN, MSNBC, ABC News, Wall St Journal, Slate (today's lead story, even)... there he is, thanks to this story.
(Know where the Springfield/Haitian story wasn't front page today? Faux.)
No, whether it's Trump going rogue, or an orchestrated plan, it's good (if desperate) strategy that seems to be working, if only to keep him in everyone's head. I imagine that pollsters will show that this Springfield/Haitian stuff isn't seriously hurting the GOP ticket, and if it keeps us talking about TFG, critically or otherwise... it helps them.
posted by Artful Codger at 10:22 AM on September 18 [1 favorite]
...I believe he was coached by his handlers to stick with the former and his lack of discipline led him to do the latter.
Maybe "popular media" was the wrong term. How about just "front page"? If I go to: CNN, MSNBC, ABC News, Wall St Journal, Slate (today's lead story, even)... there he is, thanks to this story.
(Know where the Springfield/Haitian story wasn't front page today? Faux.)
No, whether it's Trump going rogue, or an orchestrated plan, it's good (if desperate) strategy that seems to be working, if only to keep him in everyone's head. I imagine that pollsters will show that this Springfield/Haitian stuff isn't seriously hurting the GOP ticket, and if it keeps us talking about TFG, critically or otherwise... it helps them.
posted by Artful Codger at 10:22 AM on September 18 [1 favorite]
Talk to one fucking Haitian in Springfield?
Here's an article full of quotes from Haitians in Springfield from four days ago. Your 'Bluesky contributors' must have missed that one.
posted by nobody at 10:28 AM on September 18 [7 favorites]
Here's an article full of quotes from Haitians in Springfield from four days ago. Your 'Bluesky contributors' must have missed that one.
posted by nobody at 10:28 AM on September 18 [7 favorites]
I appreciated this. Thank you.
posted by lokta at 11:20 AM on September 18 [1 favorite]
posted by lokta at 11:20 AM on September 18 [1 favorite]
I had an Ask about how to support Haitians in Springfield and got two helpful answers:
The Haitian Community Help & Support Center is run by Haitian immigrants for Haitian immigrants. Interview with the head of the center is on The Racket. The head of the center also mentioned Welcome Springfield but I'm not immediately seeing how to donate to them.
posted by queensissy at 11:15 AM on September 12 [marked as best answer | unmark] [1 favorite +] [⚑]
Rocking Horse Community Health Center provides a wide array of healthcare & preventative care services, particularly to lower income folks in Springfield. They are one of a coalition of community members who are doing outreach to work with the Haitian refugee/immigrant community. I believe they're also housing (or about to) a legal clinic, which is much needed. They're a fantastic organization and they do great work.
posted by dryad at 2:15 PM on September 12 [marked as best answer | unmark] [1 favorite +] [⚑]
posted by kensington314 at 11:31 AM on September 18 [6 favorites]
The Haitian Community Help & Support Center is run by Haitian immigrants for Haitian immigrants. Interview with the head of the center is on The Racket. The head of the center also mentioned Welcome Springfield but I'm not immediately seeing how to donate to them.
posted by queensissy at 11:15 AM on September 12 [marked as best answer | unmark] [1 favorite +] [⚑]
Rocking Horse Community Health Center provides a wide array of healthcare & preventative care services, particularly to lower income folks in Springfield. They are one of a coalition of community members who are doing outreach to work with the Haitian refugee/immigrant community. I believe they're also housing (or about to) a legal clinic, which is much needed. They're a fantastic organization and they do great work.
posted by dryad at 2:15 PM on September 12 [marked as best answer | unmark] [1 favorite +] [⚑]
posted by kensington314 at 11:31 AM on September 18 [6 favorites]
Trump's base are literally more likely to be criminals than immigrants are.
This is my surprised face: *unsmiling Buster Keaton*
posted by y2karl at 12:25 PM on September 18 [3 favorites]
This is my surprised face: *unsmiling Buster Keaton*
posted by y2karl at 12:25 PM on September 18 [3 favorites]
Trump's base are literally more likely to be criminals than immigrants are.
Trump’s family is more likely to be criminals. Especially if Trump himself is included.
posted by TedW at 12:40 PM on September 18 [5 favorites]
Trump’s family is more likely to be criminals. Especially if Trump himself is included.
posted by TedW at 12:40 PM on September 18 [5 favorites]
One in forty-five US Presidents is a felon. I’m guessing that’s a much more dangerous population group than any immigrant community.
posted by skookumsaurus rex at 2:37 PM on September 18 [5 favorites]
posted by skookumsaurus rex at 2:37 PM on September 18 [5 favorites]
You got to put an asterisk on that one cause one president got pardoned before conviction.
posted by Mitheral at 3:50 PM on September 18 [2 favorites]
posted by Mitheral at 3:50 PM on September 18 [2 favorites]
I'm sorry commentator nobody, I started to compile a list of the most egregious Trumpwashing the NYT does (it's long) but I'm tired. Tired of Trump, tired of the magas and fascists, tired of the anti-trans and homophones, tired of the racists, tired of the fucking oligarchs, and extremely tired of the self appointed mandarins of democracy doing nothing but helping the bad people in the name of both side-ism. Maybe I'll get around to it another day.
But I'll leave you with what the Trump said today: "The democrats say please dont call [immigrants] animals; theyre humans. I [Trump] said no they're not human, they are not humans, they are animals".
Call me when the NYT, WAPO, CNN, WSJ and the followers shout to the rooftops that this is pure evil and leading the US to a very awful place. "Trump sets out a bold new position in genetics" will be the headline.
posted by WatTylerJr at 4:42 PM on September 18 [8 favorites]
But I'll leave you with what the Trump said today: "The democrats say please dont call [immigrants] animals; theyre humans. I [Trump] said no they're not human, they are not humans, they are animals".
Call me when the NYT, WAPO, CNN, WSJ and the followers shout to the rooftops that this is pure evil and leading the US to a very awful place. "Trump sets out a bold new position in genetics" will be the headline.
posted by WatTylerJr at 4:42 PM on September 18 [8 favorites]
rather than incentivizing more people to drive by providing funds toward driving lessons and buying vehicles, a good start would be to put investment into buses and trains. Meanwhile, those who wish to drive can certainly do so and not be basically detained in Springfield because they can’t get out.
The "good start" is a years-out solution.
Also as TPS awardees they are exempt from detention.
They are in Springfield by choice, not forced relocation.
As for the fear-mongering, a reasonable person would conclude that being placed in a food-rich environment after experiencing food poverty, one would not choose cats as a primary source of protein.
I have acquaintances who fell for the cat story; 50-50 xenophobes and cat lovers. Rather like "A Modest Proposal" the small lie in the original story that gave it away was the cat being strung up. No one who's ever dressed their own meal has dressed a small animal by hanging it.
posted by MarcWolfe at 4:50 PM on September 18 [4 favorites]
The "good start" is a years-out solution.
Also as TPS awardees they are exempt from detention.
They are in Springfield by choice, not forced relocation.
As for the fear-mongering, a reasonable person would conclude that being placed in a food-rich environment after experiencing food poverty, one would not choose cats as a primary source of protein.
I have acquaintances who fell for the cat story; 50-50 xenophobes and cat lovers. Rather like "A Modest Proposal" the small lie in the original story that gave it away was the cat being strung up. No one who's ever dressed their own meal has dressed a small animal by hanging it.
posted by MarcWolfe at 4:50 PM on September 18 [4 favorites]
How the Trump Campaign Ran With Rumors About Pet-Eating Migrants—After Being Told They Weren't True - "Springfield, Ohio, city officials were contacted by Vance's team and said the claims were baseless. It didn't matter and now the town is in chaos."
> Haitians moving to where the jobs are.
Migrants Are Settling in Thriving Blue Counties — Not the Red Counties That Need Them - "Migrants landing in swing states, and across the country, are gravitating to counties that voted for President Joe Biden in 2020. Much like in previous generations, migrants are headed to places with growing local economies, bolstering the labor force in places that are already thriving."
posted by kliuless at 6:35 PM on September 18 [3 favorites]
> Haitians moving to where the jobs are.
Migrants Are Settling in Thriving Blue Counties — Not the Red Counties That Need Them - "Migrants landing in swing states, and across the country, are gravitating to counties that voted for President Joe Biden in 2020. Much like in previous generations, migrants are headed to places with growing local economies, bolstering the labor force in places that are already thriving."
posted by kliuless at 6:35 PM on September 18 [3 favorites]
I am asking this out of honest curiosity and hope that it will not serve as a launching-off point for a derail. (And I would ask people to please keep that in mind before replying..)
From my standpoint, and clearly to many others, the dehumanizing rhetoric being used openly by Trump, Vance, and their allies seems to have strong historical echoes to language that has been used in the past by authoritarians preparing to commit genocide - the Nazi treatment of Jews and the Hutu government's campaign of dehumanization against the Tutsi minority bear obvious similarities when Republicans are openly using talking points suggesting immigrants are "poisoning our blood" or using terms such as "vermin" to describe specific groups.
I don't agree with the reasons why, but understand that there are reasons the US media is unwilling, possibly unable, to decisively confront this, but among scholars of genocide and the Holocaust is there significant discussion about this or calls for action?
I ask because I am alarmed by the growing venom of the Trump camp's misrepresentations of immigrants, especially immigrants who are people of color, and I would like to better understand whether the pushback is seemingly so weak because either (a) experts don't consider the situation all that serious (yet?), or (b) genocide experts are significantly concerned but their concern is not being centered in media coverage of the issue.
posted by Nerd of the North at 6:48 PM on September 18 [6 favorites]
From my standpoint, and clearly to many others, the dehumanizing rhetoric being used openly by Trump, Vance, and their allies seems to have strong historical echoes to language that has been used in the past by authoritarians preparing to commit genocide - the Nazi treatment of Jews and the Hutu government's campaign of dehumanization against the Tutsi minority bear obvious similarities when Republicans are openly using talking points suggesting immigrants are "poisoning our blood" or using terms such as "vermin" to describe specific groups.
I don't agree with the reasons why, but understand that there are reasons the US media is unwilling, possibly unable, to decisively confront this, but among scholars of genocide and the Holocaust is there significant discussion about this or calls for action?
I ask because I am alarmed by the growing venom of the Trump camp's misrepresentations of immigrants, especially immigrants who are people of color, and I would like to better understand whether the pushback is seemingly so weak because either (a) experts don't consider the situation all that serious (yet?), or (b) genocide experts are significantly concerned but their concern is not being centered in media coverage of the issue.
posted by Nerd of the North at 6:48 PM on September 18 [6 favorites]
...the dehumanizing rhetoric being used openly by Trump, Vance, and their allies
My perspective is that Trump has always leaned into attacking immigrants and defenseless 'others' for the headlines it grabs and for the positive reactions he gets from the white supremacist fringe that he has been courting all along, starting with his Obama birther nonsense.
I think that Trump himself is too stupid/lazy/selfish to be actually chasing some Final Solution; he just wants to escape legal jeopardy and become Emperor by winning the election, by any means. Problem is, he's throwing red meat to the sort of nuts that might actually lean in that genocidal direction.
And this is happening within the US's terminally bipolar political system, where many would willingly back Hitler as long as he was a Republican and electable. Hence the Trump support and acquiescing silence from most of the GOP establishment. And the oligarchs back him for promising not to tax their stuff or loosen their grip on things.
posted by Artful Codger at 7:25 PM on September 18 [2 favorites]
My perspective is that Trump has always leaned into attacking immigrants and defenseless 'others' for the headlines it grabs and for the positive reactions he gets from the white supremacist fringe that he has been courting all along, starting with his Obama birther nonsense.
I think that Trump himself is too stupid/lazy/selfish to be actually chasing some Final Solution; he just wants to escape legal jeopardy and become Emperor by winning the election, by any means. Problem is, he's throwing red meat to the sort of nuts that might actually lean in that genocidal direction.
And this is happening within the US's terminally bipolar political system, where many would willingly back Hitler as long as he was a Republican and electable. Hence the Trump support and acquiescing silence from most of the GOP establishment. And the oligarchs back him for promising not to tax their stuff or loosen their grip on things.
posted by Artful Codger at 7:25 PM on September 18 [2 favorites]
Hence the Trump support and acquiescing silence from most of the GOP establishment.The thing that has me losing sleep is that it is very much not "acquiescing silence" from the remainder of the GOP establishment. It's not just Trump anymore (if it ever was, which I tend to disbelieve), the rhetoric is escalating, and it's very much being deliberately amplified by conservative broadcast media and social media.
In a poll of ~1100 individuals done a week ago, a huge share of voters who identified themselves as Republicans (278 of the total 1,119 respondents) assessed the statement "Haitian immigrants are abducting and eating pet dogs and cats" as either "definitely true" (18%) or "probably true" (28%). Maybe I'm not justified in this, but I'm interpreting positive responses to that question to be more indicative of a willingness to repeat the party line than an actual sincere belief that the behavior described is actually occurring, but even as a shibboleth to demonstrate group membership it's crazy to me that that many people are committing to circulating this slander in such a short time.
That was a week, dozens of anonymous threats, and several school and hospitals shutdowns ago, the rhetoric hasn't shown any signs of stopping, rather it appears to be escalating. That has me really concerned.
posted by Nerd of the North at 8:05 PM on September 18 [3 favorites]
How the Trump Campaign Ran With Rumors About Pet-Eating Migrants—After Being Told They Weren't True - "Springfield, Ohio, city officials were contacted by Vance's team and said the claims were baseless. It didn't matter and now the town is in chaos."
posted by jedicus at 5:17 AM on September 19 [5 favorites]
“[Vance] asked point-blank, ‘Are the rumors true of pets being taken and eaten?’” recalled [Springfield City Manager Bryan] Heck. “I told him no. There was no verifiable evidence or reports to show this was true. I told them these claims were baseless.”Springfield should absolutely sue Vance for defamation. It is beyond dispute that he knew what he was saying was false. And because of the numerous bomb threats, school closures, etc, the city (as in the political entity) has real damages.
By then, Vance had already posted about the rumors to his 1.9 million followers on X. Yet he kept the post up, and repeated an even more insistent version of the claim the next morning
posted by jedicus at 5:17 AM on September 19 [5 favorites]
Legal question: is it possible for a town to sure for defamation?
posted by Nancy Lebovitz at 8:00 AM on September 19 [1 favorite]
posted by Nancy Lebovitz at 8:00 AM on September 19 [1 favorite]
JD Vance is factually challenged – and morally deficient.
- Margaret Sullivan, Guardian
Yeah, sure would like to see Springfield sue the Trump/Vance campaign, and those two personally. The problem is... Ohio is a swing state, it's currently leaning Republican, and too many people are invested in a Republican win... and a win is a win, no matter how ugly, in US politics.
posted by Artful Codger at 9:03 AM on September 19
- Margaret Sullivan, Guardian
Yeah, sure would like to see Springfield sue the Trump/Vance campaign, and those two personally. The problem is... Ohio is a swing state, it's currently leaning Republican, and too many people are invested in a Republican win... and a win is a win, no matter how ugly, in US politics.
posted by Artful Codger at 9:03 AM on September 19
My level of hatred for the NYT and it’s followers in the national political media grows every single day. Why don’t they post a zillion stories about Trump/Vance inciting a pogram?
I am at work and can't search for it properly - but a friend recently shared a video of a group of protestors outside the NYT headquarters demanding the NYT stop normalizing Trump and start calling him out as a liar.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 7:39 AM on September 20 [1 favorite]
I am at work and can't search for it properly - but a friend recently shared a video of a group of protestors outside the NYT headquarters demanding the NYT stop normalizing Trump and start calling him out as a liar.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 7:39 AM on September 20 [1 favorite]
I'm slightly hopeful that the smalltown America is a shithole bullshit demonization of immigrants (and Haitians in particular) might actually exert enough cognitive dissonance pressure that some politicians who actually care about their constituents (in other words not Vance) will start to rethink being part of the whirlwind of lies?
For example, PA state senator Bartolotta reprimanded LibsofTikTok:
For example, PA state senator Bartolotta reprimanded LibsofTikTok:
These are not immigrants being bussed in by Kamala. I follow you & repost but you are playing into the hands of people who are jeopardizing the safety of innocent children in our local school. These Haitians are working hard, sending their children to school and opening businesses. They are here legally.posted by spamandkimchi at 10:02 AM on September 20 [4 favorites]
...Please, check the facts before posting information [that] jeopardizes the safety of good, hard-working people.
The above story is the perfect encapsulation of two forces inside the Republican Party (the cultural warrior Christian fascists and the neoliberal pro-capitalist owning class) finally realizing they are at an innate contradiction. Immigration is loved by one but not the other. Capitalists need low-wage workers to exploit and recent immigrants work nicely for that. But those very same immigrants create anxiety for the blood-and-soil types that see the purpose of government as an enforcement mechanism for community norms and composition.
We saw this with the conflict between Desantis and Disney over the last couple of years. The issues is that there is no real solution here that the Republicans can use to solve this contradiction. Either the culture-warrior fascists win and the capitalists will retreat to the Democratic Party (along with their funding), or the capitalists wills win and the alt-right will be banished back to the edges of the party (and the electorate), at least for now. But there's no way around this, not without uprooting the very foundations of the system. So, get comfortable with more of this as we go forward.
posted by Lord Chancellor at 12:11 PM on September 20 [3 favorites]
We saw this with the conflict between Desantis and Disney over the last couple of years. The issues is that there is no real solution here that the Republicans can use to solve this contradiction. Either the culture-warrior fascists win and the capitalists will retreat to the Democratic Party (along with their funding), or the capitalists wills win and the alt-right will be banished back to the edges of the party (and the electorate), at least for now. But there's no way around this, not without uprooting the very foundations of the system. So, get comfortable with more of this as we go forward.
posted by Lord Chancellor at 12:11 PM on September 20 [3 favorites]
Haitian group files criminal charges against Trump, Vance over pet-eating claims
posted by Mitheral at 6:23 PM on September 25 [4 favorites]
The charges include disrupting public service, making false alarms, committing telecommunications harassment, committing aggravated menacing and violating the prohibition against complicity.
posted by Mitheral at 6:23 PM on September 25 [4 favorites]
See also from Truthout:
Haitian Residents of Springfield Criminally Charge Trump, Vance Over Racist Lies
posted by y2karl at 12:08 AM on September 27 [3 favorites]
Haitian Residents of Springfield Criminally Charge Trump, Vance Over Racist Lies
Under a little-utilized law in Ohio, private residents can file criminal charges when local prosecutors fail to do soIt's only fitting that Springfield's Haitian community can by statute take the law into their own
“33 bomb threats, schools and government offices have received racially charged threats” because of Trump and Vance’s statements, the group said in an Instagram post. “Enough is enough. No one is above the law. Hate will always have consequences.”
The organization accuses the Republican presidential ticket of several charges, including disrupting public service by inciting bomb and other threats to the community; causing false alarms by knowingly and continually spreading the lies; committing telecommunications harassment by spreading the lies on television and social media; committing aggravated menacing by making the statements with the intent to abuse and/or threaten residents; and more.
posted by y2karl at 12:08 AM on September 27 [3 favorites]
...hands
posted by y2karl at 7:02 PM on September 27 [2 favorites]
posted by y2karl at 7:02 PM on September 27 [2 favorites]
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