Smart bitch writes about trashy books...
October 1, 2024 9:43 AM Subscribe
I'm skeptical. Sure, there are people on TikTok and Twitter saying there's too much sexuality in the media, but half the reason they're getting so much attention is because they make so many people uncomfortable. I feel like I can't leave the house without seeing someone reading Sarah J. Maas' spicy fantasy books—BookTokkers may be saying we need to go back to Doestoevsky (and someone's always been saying that kind of thing), but I'm not seeing a lot of copies of The Brothers Karamazov on the train.
It's true, as the author points out, that TikTok and social media affect what books people buy and read, but my suspicion is that people are more receptive to messages like "hey, this book is awesome, and here's why," where they can add the book to their Kindle or Libby queue, than "books today are too sexy." I know I personally discover books, movies, music, etc. through social media and professional reviews, and a negative review of the work or certainly the genre doesn't necessarily mean I won't check out the work itself.
And just concretely, it feels like Rachel Kushner's Creation Lake, which is reasonably sexual, was one of the most anticipated literary fiction works lately. Within the past couple of years we had Emma Cline's The Guest and Catherine Lacey's Biography of X, both of which had involved sex and sexuality as fairly central to the plot. I haven't read Sally Rooney or Taffy Brodesser-Akner yet, but are their books devoid of sex? Sara Gran even had The Book of the Most Precious Substance, which involved female ejaculation as a core plot element.
In science fiction, we recently had a FPP about Tamsyn Muir, whose novels aren't exactly raunchy but certainly have explicit lust, including between women. And it feels like there's been a revival of interest lately in SFF writers who've dealt with sexuality explicitly, noticeably Ursula Le Guin, Samuel Delany, and Octavia Butler?
posted by smelendez at 11:07 AM on October 1 [6 favorites]
It's true, as the author points out, that TikTok and social media affect what books people buy and read, but my suspicion is that people are more receptive to messages like "hey, this book is awesome, and here's why," where they can add the book to their Kindle or Libby queue, than "books today are too sexy." I know I personally discover books, movies, music, etc. through social media and professional reviews, and a negative review of the work or certainly the genre doesn't necessarily mean I won't check out the work itself.
And just concretely, it feels like Rachel Kushner's Creation Lake, which is reasonably sexual, was one of the most anticipated literary fiction works lately. Within the past couple of years we had Emma Cline's The Guest and Catherine Lacey's Biography of X, both of which had involved sex and sexuality as fairly central to the plot. I haven't read Sally Rooney or Taffy Brodesser-Akner yet, but are their books devoid of sex? Sara Gran even had The Book of the Most Precious Substance, which involved female ejaculation as a core plot element.
In science fiction, we recently had a FPP about Tamsyn Muir, whose novels aren't exactly raunchy but certainly have explicit lust, including between women. And it feels like there's been a revival of interest lately in SFF writers who've dealt with sexuality explicitly, noticeably Ursula Le Guin, Samuel Delany, and Octavia Butler?
posted by smelendez at 11:07 AM on October 1 [6 favorites]
Look, I’m not a puritan, but screeds like this have always rubbed me the wrong way. A lot of ordinary people’s distaste for sex scenes, as noted, are related to “mucus-membrane hydraulics” that don’t interest them, either because their sexuality is different or it seems to be written for a male gaze.
And honestly, sexuality is a place where disgust can be a valid personal response—not in terms of lawmaking or societal acceptance, of course, but as preference. Why is she saying that a reviewer should “grow up” for noting that a tampon sex scene is “‘graphic’ and ‘gross’”? Because, you know, that’s gonna be a pretty widely held take! It doesn’t make you Republican to believe that, and it’s not going to help anyone to suggest it does. The truly grownup take is to accept that something is gross and review the whole work on its merits anyway.
In the past, I was almost always put off by sex scenes, and the reasons were not actually bad. The scenes I hated were clearly male fantasies, or else they presumed widespread acceptance and enjoyment of sex under conditions which I did not share. I’ve come to understand that this is okay and healthy and does not mean I am a fool or a child. Now I know what I’m reading and I can meet it on its own terms.
posted by Countess Elena at 11:31 AM on October 1 [19 favorites]
And honestly, sexuality is a place where disgust can be a valid personal response—not in terms of lawmaking or societal acceptance, of course, but as preference. Why is she saying that a reviewer should “grow up” for noting that a tampon sex scene is “‘graphic’ and ‘gross’”? Because, you know, that’s gonna be a pretty widely held take! It doesn’t make you Republican to believe that, and it’s not going to help anyone to suggest it does. The truly grownup take is to accept that something is gross and review the whole work on its merits anyway.
In the past, I was almost always put off by sex scenes, and the reasons were not actually bad. The scenes I hated were clearly male fantasies, or else they presumed widespread acceptance and enjoyment of sex under conditions which I did not share. I’ve come to understand that this is okay and healthy and does not mean I am a fool or a child. Now I know what I’m reading and I can meet it on its own terms.
posted by Countess Elena at 11:31 AM on October 1 [19 favorites]
Funny this topic should come up. My daughter-in-law is heavily into Sara J. Maas’ books. One day, she asked if I’d like to read a couple. I’m largely a sci-fi reader, but since she likes the Maas books so much, I accepted the offer. It turns out “a couple” meant I now have all of Maas’ books on my desk. And I find I’m actually enjoying them quite a lot.
One thing that kind-of shocked me as I read them was, in fact, the fairly graphic sex throughout the novels. Not pearl-clutching, won’t-someone-think-of-the-children, shocked, mind you. It’s more of a “Wow, I wasn’t expecting this!” shock, and I think this stems from my understanding that the books are more-or-less considered YA novels (or not?) and my apparent ignorance of what YA even encompasses anymore. Then again, considering what one can easily access on the internet, the sex in Maas’ books could seem kinda tame, really.
posted by Thorzdad at 11:33 AM on October 1 [3 favorites]
One thing that kind-of shocked me as I read them was, in fact, the fairly graphic sex throughout the novels. Not pearl-clutching, won’t-someone-think-of-the-children, shocked, mind you. It’s more of a “Wow, I wasn’t expecting this!” shock, and I think this stems from my understanding that the books are more-or-less considered YA novels (or not?) and my apparent ignorance of what YA even encompasses anymore. Then again, considering what one can easily access on the internet, the sex in Maas’ books could seem kinda tame, really.
posted by Thorzdad at 11:33 AM on October 1 [3 favorites]
I've always figured it was because porn went mainstream. When I was young I used to read a lot of SF from the 60s/70s, which had a lot of sex in it, very little of which has aged well because it was nearly all one type of sex that only nerdy, horny geeks like then-me really enjoyed to read about. But putting sex in novels, explicit sex, was transgressive back then even if it seems retrograde today. I personally much prefer the fade-to-black style of writing about sex, because if I want to read about or watch sex, I can just turn on Pornhub or whatever, where 99% of it is awful crap but there's so much of it that something can inevitably be found. I'm reading an SF novel, I don't need (nor want, usually) to have sex scenes in it, because now, fundamentally, sex scenes belong to a different genre.
posted by outgrown_hobnail at 11:37 AM on October 1 [7 favorites]
posted by outgrown_hobnail at 11:37 AM on October 1 [7 favorites]
Can't think of a book I've read recently that has an explicit sex scene in it.
It can't come off as not awkward...
posted by Windopaene at 11:46 AM on October 1 [1 favorite]
It can't come off as not awkward...
posted by Windopaene at 11:46 AM on October 1 [1 favorite]
There are a hell of a lot more people in recent decades who are not into sex.
I wonder if it isn’t at least partly about people feeling more empowered not to have sex they don’t want.
posted by Horace Rumpole at 12:17 PM on October 1 [21 favorites]
I wonder if it isn’t at least partly about people feeling more empowered not to have sex they don’t want.
posted by Horace Rumpole at 12:17 PM on October 1 [21 favorites]
I wonder if it isn’t at least partly about people feeling more empowered not to have sex they don’t want.
Alternately, it's also possible that on average more people have fewer societal curbs on various aspects of their sexuality and there's less of an appetite for explicit scenes because it no longer is proverbial forbidden fruit.
posted by tclark at 12:46 PM on October 1 [11 favorites]
Alternately, it's also possible that on average more people have fewer societal curbs on various aspects of their sexuality and there's less of an appetite for explicit scenes because it no longer is proverbial forbidden fruit.
posted by tclark at 12:46 PM on October 1 [11 favorites]
Even if someone likes to read their smut rather than watch the tiny people do it in their magic picture box, there's a lot that gets right down to getting down. I recently ran across a series for the Kindle called Happy Endings Dungeon, in which the inheritor of the sort of deathtrap-heavy dungeon that figures largely in numerous RPGs decides to change things up and set it up so that would-be adventurers get the adventuring spirit schtupped out of them. (Think if LARP meant Live Action Raunchy Porn.) No more flipping through books to find the one hot scene--it's all right there.
posted by Halloween Jack at 1:04 PM on October 1 [1 favorite]
posted by Halloween Jack at 1:04 PM on October 1 [1 favorite]
The reason some Kids These Days are complaining about sexy books on TikTok is that fairy fucking and ice planet barbarians are the most popular books out there.
Right now commercial fiction is producing more spice than Arrakis.
posted by betweenthebars at 1:09 PM on October 1 [11 favorites]
Right now commercial fiction is producing more spice than Arrakis.
posted by betweenthebars at 1:09 PM on October 1 [11 favorites]
Sex scenes can reveal character, and sex scenes can advance plot. And even if they couldn't, or didn't, they still reasonably belong in fiction, IMO.
Novels are books that are meant to resemble or reveal the world, so subtracting all the sex scenes makes them less naturalistic, and less honest, assuming anybody is still having sex in the world.
posted by newdaddy at 1:27 PM on October 1 [9 favorites]
Novels are books that are meant to resemble or reveal the world, so subtracting all the sex scenes makes them less naturalistic, and less honest, assuming anybody is still having sex in the world.
posted by newdaddy at 1:27 PM on October 1 [9 favorites]
I'm (absurdly?) wiggly about cursing in music when played in public e.g. at a restaurant or retail store. I go so far as to find radio edits when making playlists for picnics when there are going to be under-18s around.
So I am slightly bummed at the increasingly common sex scene just because I am Awkward Aunt when gifting a nibling or friend's kid with a book with explicit sex. Especially when I did it unwittingly, see incongrously cutesy covers.
But that is a single use case, and this Awkward Aunt can deal just fine.
posted by spamandkimchi at 1:36 PM on October 1 [1 favorite]
So I am slightly bummed at the increasingly common sex scene just because I am Awkward Aunt when gifting a nibling or friend's kid with a book with explicit sex. Especially when I did it unwittingly, see incongrously cutesy covers.
But that is a single use case, and this Awkward Aunt can deal just fine.
posted by spamandkimchi at 1:36 PM on October 1 [1 favorite]
I think my favorite books for the handling of sex scenes are the first 3 Kushiro books by Jacqueline Carey. Given that the narrator is a divinely-inspired masochist and a state-sanctioned prostitute, there’s a lot of sex, mostly flavors of BDSM. However, once Carey has established that, extended sex scenes only occur when they advance the plot, develop a theme, or expose a character’s nature. You can look at most scenes and understand why they are in the novel.
I’ve listened to a few novels recently where the sex scenes were pretty intrusive, disrupting the flow of the narrative, including a book that decided a couple pages of sex before the final denouement was a good idea. However well-written, that’s just exasperating (to me, I’ll grudgingly admit).
posted by GenjiandProust at 1:44 PM on October 1 [7 favorites]
I’ve listened to a few novels recently where the sex scenes were pretty intrusive, disrupting the flow of the narrative, including a book that decided a couple pages of sex before the final denouement was a good idea. However well-written, that’s just exasperating (to me, I’ll grudgingly admit).
posted by GenjiandProust at 1:44 PM on October 1 [7 favorites]
Novels are books that are meant to resemble or reveal the world, so subtracting all the sex scenes makes them less naturalistic, and less honest, assuming anybody is still having sex in the world.
You could say the same for defecation, but I have no problem with people saying they could do without explicit description of it in every book they read.
A lot of ordinary people’s distaste for sex scenes, as noted, are related to “mucus-membrane hydraulics” that don’t interest them, either because their sexuality is different or it seems to be written for a male gaze.
Yeah, what most everybody in this conversation really means is "I want more of the stuff I like in novels and less of the stuff I don't like." I'm sure that there's lots of kinds of sex that Emily Lynell Edwards wouldn't want to be ubiquitous in the novels she reads and that she's blind to the ways that all the "variety" of sex stuff she likes and wants in novels all seems like "yet more of that same specific stuff that's not written for me" to lots of other readers.
posted by straight at 1:48 PM on October 1 [6 favorites]
You could say the same for defecation, but I have no problem with people saying they could do without explicit description of it in every book they read.
A lot of ordinary people’s distaste for sex scenes, as noted, are related to “mucus-membrane hydraulics” that don’t interest them, either because their sexuality is different or it seems to be written for a male gaze.
Yeah, what most everybody in this conversation really means is "I want more of the stuff I like in novels and less of the stuff I don't like." I'm sure that there's lots of kinds of sex that Emily Lynell Edwards wouldn't want to be ubiquitous in the novels she reads and that she's blind to the ways that all the "variety" of sex stuff she likes and wants in novels all seems like "yet more of that same specific stuff that's not written for me" to lots of other readers.
posted by straight at 1:48 PM on October 1 [6 favorites]
There’s a distinction to be drawn here between writing about sex, which is very easy and mechanical to do, where the failure mode is simply that you end up with porno, and writing about desire, which is extraordinarily difficult, and risky, and where if you fail you end up with genuinely offensive literature. The ‘wrong’ and unwanted kind of desire can make anyone instantly uncomfortable, for good reason.
The cliché about techno-thrillers being another form of pornography—writing about fighter jets, and machines, and robots, and war—is a valid observation. Writing about the mechanics of sex, and making huge sales out of it, is so easy even Tom Clancy could do it, unconsciously.
posted by Fiasco da Gama at 2:58 PM on October 1 [7 favorites]
The cliché about techno-thrillers being another form of pornography—writing about fighter jets, and machines, and robots, and war—is a valid observation. Writing about the mechanics of sex, and making huge sales out of it, is so easy even Tom Clancy could do it, unconsciously.
posted by Fiasco da Gama at 2:58 PM on October 1 [7 favorites]
Novels are books that are meant to resemble or reveal the world, so subtracting all the sex scenes makes them less naturalisticI’d refine this to say novels are mean to resemble or reveal the values and beliefs about the world held by the author and presumed audience. Some novels are naturalistic-realistic, and others have barbarians and pointy eared sexy elves, and others have fighting robots. But as I said I think what’s being described here is a particular set of values and experiences current with English language readers in Anglo countries: comfortable with sex, but uncomfortable around desire.
posted by Fiasco da Gama at 3:12 PM on October 1 [5 favorites]
I don't think she makes her case, but I admit I bounced hard off the part about hookup culture bleeding into # metoo (...what???), and basically zoned out though the following 15,000 words. She spends an enormous amount of the article talking about all the sex-filled books that sell a bazillion copies, which seems to disprove her thesis. "Everyone is beautiful, and no one is horny" was a point about American mainstream film, and the reasons why those films aren't sexy anymore is that (a) most films are trying for a PG-13 rating to maximize ticket sales, and (b) those films are also being sold to overseas markets that are often extremely socially conservative. American books don't really deal with any of those factors, so it's not really an issue?
posted by kittens for breakfast at 4:02 PM on October 1 [3 favorites]
posted by kittens for breakfast at 4:02 PM on October 1 [3 favorites]
This far into the thread and no mention of fanfic? I don't even recognize this place any more.
posted by Wretch729 at 4:04 PM on October 1 [18 favorites]
posted by Wretch729 at 4:04 PM on October 1 [18 favorites]
Audiences are well served by porn and romance when they want sex.
Otherwise, you don't want to bore or upset your audience, and pretty much every depiction of sex is going to bore or upset most people who aren't specifically seeking that content.
In film and television the really good looking people are not going to be fully nude and increasingly won't even be partially nude, which is perfectly fine for them but it also makes sex scenes even less interesting than they might otherwise be.
posted by MattD at 4:14 PM on October 1
Otherwise, you don't want to bore or upset your audience, and pretty much every depiction of sex is going to bore or upset most people who aren't specifically seeking that content.
In film and television the really good looking people are not going to be fully nude and increasingly won't even be partially nude, which is perfectly fine for them but it also makes sex scenes even less interesting than they might otherwise be.
posted by MattD at 4:14 PM on October 1
I think you can reveal your values and beliefs, without writing explicit sex scenes. A writer can totally make it clear that these characters hooked up, without describing it in gross detail.
Kind of tends to "I never thought this would happen, but..." fake penthouse/any internet forum kinds of things. There will always be a perspective, and it might not be that of your readers.
Sex is weird. You do you though
posted by Windopaene at 4:14 PM on October 1
Kind of tends to "I never thought this would happen, but..." fake penthouse/any internet forum kinds of things. There will always be a perspective, and it might not be that of your readers.
Sex is weird. You do you though
posted by Windopaene at 4:14 PM on October 1
You do you though
That’s a whole separate issue!
posted by GenjiandProust at 4:22 PM on October 1 [11 favorites]
That’s a whole separate issue!
posted by GenjiandProust at 4:22 PM on October 1 [11 favorites]
Also, that should have been "Kushiel" books. Autocorrect is a bastard, and it's hard to make comments on a phone.
posted by GenjiandProust at 4:43 PM on October 1 [6 favorites]
posted by GenjiandProust at 4:43 PM on October 1 [6 favorites]
This far into the thread and no mention of fanfic? I don't even recognize this place any more.
I had a comment typed up about fanfic that I deleted without posting it, because I didn't really want to get into an argument on MetaFilter today.
But it started with: As someone in fandom, it's funny seeing speculation that childless cat ladies aren't interested in sex and don't want to read about sex. (Or desire.) That's not the conclusion I'd naturally reach.
posted by Kutsuwamushi at 4:45 PM on October 1 [21 favorites]
I had a comment typed up about fanfic that I deleted without posting it, because I didn't really want to get into an argument on MetaFilter today.
But it started with: As someone in fandom, it's funny seeing speculation that childless cat ladies aren't interested in sex and don't want to read about sex. (Or desire.) That's not the conclusion I'd naturally reach.
posted by Kutsuwamushi at 4:45 PM on October 1 [21 favorites]
But it started with: As someone in fandom, it's funny seeing speculation that childless cat ladies aren't interested in sex and don't want to read about sex. (Or desire.) That's not the conclusion I'd naturally reach.
I could have phrased that better - they don't want to read about the type of sex that Emily Lynn Edwards wants to read about. They may be reading or writing about sex extensively, but because it's about lesbians, or about about anthropomorphic rabbits having sex, or aliens having sex telepathically, and it doesn't describe close ups of penetration using the key naughty words that work for her, she considers what they read to have been censored by neopuritans.
posted by Jane the Brown at 4:58 PM on October 1
I could have phrased that better - they don't want to read about the type of sex that Emily Lynn Edwards wants to read about. They may be reading or writing about sex extensively, but because it's about lesbians, or about about anthropomorphic rabbits having sex, or aliens having sex telepathically, and it doesn't describe close ups of penetration using the key naughty words that work for her, she considers what they read to have been censored by neopuritans.
posted by Jane the Brown at 4:58 PM on October 1
it doesn't describe close ups of penetration using the key naughty words that work for her
Ummmmmmmm.......
Not that there aren't the rabbits or the aliens or whatever, too, but....
posted by praemunire at 5:31 PM on October 1 [7 favorites]
Ummmmmmmm.......
Not that there aren't the rabbits or the aliens or whatever, too, but....
posted by praemunire at 5:31 PM on October 1 [7 favorites]
I categorically do not believe that enjoying a sex scene depends on being into the kind of sex it depicts. I've read a bunch of sex scenes that firmly fall into the category of "I would not have fun doing that, personally, but I'm very happy that you're having fun," or "I would not have fun doing that, personally, but hooray that you are getting together with the person you have been pining after for three hundred pages," and... it's not that I enjoy them as smut, necessarily, but I enjoy them as storytelling if they're well-written and make sense within the story, in the same way that I'm perfectly happy reading about characters who are having swordfights or arguing in court or doing any number of things that I would prefer not to do.
There certainly are writers who seem to take for granted that everybody else shares their fantasies, and those writers are very boring, but let's put them aside for the moment -
Great writing is when a writer makes me believe wholeheartedly in a character's desire, and gets me to inhabit that desire, even when that's a desire that's somewhat foreign to myself. Or completely foreign to myself. And if I believe wholeheartedly in that desire, then getting to see that desire thwarted or fulfilled is compelling. I'll read a sex scene just for that.
And if it's not compelling, at least books have one great advantage over movies: you can let your eyes glaze over and skim until the sexy bits are done.
posted by Jeanne at 7:05 PM on October 1 [16 favorites]
There certainly are writers who seem to take for granted that everybody else shares their fantasies, and those writers are very boring, but let's put them aside for the moment -
Great writing is when a writer makes me believe wholeheartedly in a character's desire, and gets me to inhabit that desire, even when that's a desire that's somewhat foreign to myself. Or completely foreign to myself. And if I believe wholeheartedly in that desire, then getting to see that desire thwarted or fulfilled is compelling. I'll read a sex scene just for that.
And if it's not compelling, at least books have one great advantage over movies: you can let your eyes glaze over and skim until the sexy bits are done.
posted by Jeanne at 7:05 PM on October 1 [16 favorites]
Exactly.
When writing sex scenes, it's all about where you put the focus. It can be on the fact that sexual things are happening, with a curtain drawn discreetly over the details. It can be on the actual parts in motion and assorted by-products. It can be on who is participating. And it can be on why the participants are doing what they're doing and what that says about their characters. Combo platters are also welcome.
None of the above are inherently right or wrong, but the audience may be expecting one in particular, and if you don't deliver that they'll be disappointed. So the trick is to frame the reader's expectations accordingly.
posted by delfin at 5:19 AM on October 2 [1 favorite]
When writing sex scenes, it's all about where you put the focus. It can be on the fact that sexual things are happening, with a curtain drawn discreetly over the details. It can be on the actual parts in motion and assorted by-products. It can be on who is participating. And it can be on why the participants are doing what they're doing and what that says about their characters. Combo platters are also welcome.
None of the above are inherently right or wrong, but the audience may be expecting one in particular, and if you don't deliver that they'll be disappointed. So the trick is to frame the reader's expectations accordingly.
posted by delfin at 5:19 AM on October 2 [1 favorite]
I feel like this essay assumes that the only reason anyone would write/read a sex scene is sexual arousal, and therefore if you criticize sexual writing it's because you are puritanically against normal human sexuality, and if you read material with sex scenes it's because you are healthily enjoying"sexy and thoughtful meditations on identity" or whatever.
Obviously if someone wants to read erotic material for erotic purposes, there's plenty available. But many writers don't write sex scenes to be "sexy and thoughtful", they write sex scenes because writing a sex scene expresses what they're trying to express. For instance, even when Samuel Delany is formally writing "pornography" with the intent to be erotic, it's pretty distanced and formal stuff with quite a lot of realistic detail about the ol' hydraulics, and a lot of the time when he's writing sex scenes they're much more about conveying what the experience is like for his characters and how this reveals the varieties of human subjectivity than about arousing the readership. I'm not saying that no one could ever read the sexy bits in, eg, Stars In My Pocket Like Grains Of Sand for erotica purposes, but it's no Archive Of Our Own.
When I was growing up, every mainstream fantasy or SFF novel had to have a romance and a couple of fade-to-asterisks sexy bits, regardless of plausibility or importance to plot. In real life, you may have noticed, sex and romance are not so evenly distributed. I'd much rather have novels without obligatory sexy bits and romantasy with sexy bits than the old "required ten pages of sex/romance scattered through to book to back up the cheesecake cover" of the eighties.
I mean, there are plenty of books where you could add sex scenes at the expense of plot and structure - you could destroy the plot/moral concerns of Jane Eyre, for instance, by having her sleep with Rochester before marriage, or you could destroy the structure by adding a sexy epilogue. Jane Eyre is in large part about sexual and romantic attraction, but it would not be enriched by actual sex scenes. Plenty of modern books could accommodate sex scenes without irretrievable damage to the plot or structure, but they'd be very much like the obligatory pages of my youth. even if somewhat better written.
I'd argue that Anna Karenina and Arnold Bennett's underrated Clayhanger trilogy would actually benefit from sex scenes, since those are important implied bits of the narrative that simply couldn't be written in detail due to publishing conventions of the time. But these wouldn't be written in order to include a "sexy" scene for the reader to enjoy, they'd be written to illuminate the sexual concerns that are significant for the characters.
Or take a classic of queer fantasy, Ellen Kushner's extremely fanficcy "mannerspunk" novel Swordspoint - if that were published today, it would be a much more explicit book, a la Freya Marske's novels. That wouldn't be necessary but it would be in keeping with the style and genre - no one would be surprised. It's already a rather fevered read; no one would be shocked by more explicitness, and it would be weird to say "this is out of keeping with the rest of the book".
There certainly are writers who seem to take for granted that everybody else shares their fantasies
More than this, there are certainly writers who take for granted that everyone thinks about sex as much as they do and therefore when characters aren't especially interested in sex, this either means that they have something wrong with them, must literally be asexual or are unrealistically written, and when people don't particularly need more sexual content in novels it's because they are puritanical.
Those spicy bits in eighties novels were certainly spicy for tween me! But I'm glad now that I have the choice of novels without obligatory sexy bits, actual romantasy/fanfic or novels that are about sexual concerns on purpose.
Mainly what I'm trying to say is that I personally don't need all my books to be "sexy", not even the books with sex in them. Like, it's okay to have a book that is merely "thoughtful" and not even a little bit "sexy".
posted by Frowner at 6:01 AM on October 2 [11 favorites]
Obviously if someone wants to read erotic material for erotic purposes, there's plenty available. But many writers don't write sex scenes to be "sexy and thoughtful", they write sex scenes because writing a sex scene expresses what they're trying to express. For instance, even when Samuel Delany is formally writing "pornography" with the intent to be erotic, it's pretty distanced and formal stuff with quite a lot of realistic detail about the ol' hydraulics, and a lot of the time when he's writing sex scenes they're much more about conveying what the experience is like for his characters and how this reveals the varieties of human subjectivity than about arousing the readership. I'm not saying that no one could ever read the sexy bits in, eg, Stars In My Pocket Like Grains Of Sand for erotica purposes, but it's no Archive Of Our Own.
When I was growing up, every mainstream fantasy or SFF novel had to have a romance and a couple of fade-to-asterisks sexy bits, regardless of plausibility or importance to plot. In real life, you may have noticed, sex and romance are not so evenly distributed. I'd much rather have novels without obligatory sexy bits and romantasy with sexy bits than the old "required ten pages of sex/romance scattered through to book to back up the cheesecake cover" of the eighties.
I mean, there are plenty of books where you could add sex scenes at the expense of plot and structure - you could destroy the plot/moral concerns of Jane Eyre, for instance, by having her sleep with Rochester before marriage, or you could destroy the structure by adding a sexy epilogue. Jane Eyre is in large part about sexual and romantic attraction, but it would not be enriched by actual sex scenes. Plenty of modern books could accommodate sex scenes without irretrievable damage to the plot or structure, but they'd be very much like the obligatory pages of my youth. even if somewhat better written.
I'd argue that Anna Karenina and Arnold Bennett's underrated Clayhanger trilogy would actually benefit from sex scenes, since those are important implied bits of the narrative that simply couldn't be written in detail due to publishing conventions of the time. But these wouldn't be written in order to include a "sexy" scene for the reader to enjoy, they'd be written to illuminate the sexual concerns that are significant for the characters.
Or take a classic of queer fantasy, Ellen Kushner's extremely fanficcy "mannerspunk" novel Swordspoint - if that were published today, it would be a much more explicit book, a la Freya Marske's novels. That wouldn't be necessary but it would be in keeping with the style and genre - no one would be surprised. It's already a rather fevered read; no one would be shocked by more explicitness, and it would be weird to say "this is out of keeping with the rest of the book".
There certainly are writers who seem to take for granted that everybody else shares their fantasies
More than this, there are certainly writers who take for granted that everyone thinks about sex as much as they do and therefore when characters aren't especially interested in sex, this either means that they have something wrong with them, must literally be asexual or are unrealistically written, and when people don't particularly need more sexual content in novels it's because they are puritanical.
Those spicy bits in eighties novels were certainly spicy for tween me! But I'm glad now that I have the choice of novels without obligatory sexy bits, actual romantasy/fanfic or novels that are about sexual concerns on purpose.
Mainly what I'm trying to say is that I personally don't need all my books to be "sexy", not even the books with sex in them. Like, it's okay to have a book that is merely "thoughtful" and not even a little bit "sexy".
posted by Frowner at 6:01 AM on October 2 [11 favorites]
I wrote and self-published a novel, and I had a couple of people contact me and say "you mentioned a sex scene, that turned me off to your book". (And there is one, rather explicit, lesbian scene between two young, healthy, deeply in love young women, who are enjoying themselves because it's part of their relationship.)
It didn't impact the plot in any way whether it was there or not, it just emerged as I was writing and seemed to fit the situation, so I just put in a 'fade to billowing curtains' kind of thing, put it up on Kindle as "unspiced version", and emailed those people back, figuring that if they were loud enough to contact me on it, it might be important to other people. It's otherwise the same book. Even says so in the Kindle description.
So far no one has bought that version. (Yes, people have bought the original version.)
If a sex scene - and there's places for it, one straight and at least one lesbian - in the next one, well, too f'ing bad, it's going up and no unspiced version will happen.
posted by mephron at 6:17 AM on October 2 [8 favorites]
It didn't impact the plot in any way whether it was there or not, it just emerged as I was writing and seemed to fit the situation, so I just put in a 'fade to billowing curtains' kind of thing, put it up on Kindle as "unspiced version", and emailed those people back, figuring that if they were loud enough to contact me on it, it might be important to other people. It's otherwise the same book. Even says so in the Kindle description.
So far no one has bought that version. (Yes, people have bought the original version.)
If a sex scene - and there's places for it, one straight and at least one lesbian - in the next one, well, too f'ing bad, it's going up and no unspiced version will happen.
posted by mephron at 6:17 AM on October 2 [8 favorites]
"mannerspunk"
I know that that was intended as "manners punk", but that's not how I initially read it.
posted by Halloween Jack at 6:22 AM on October 2 [6 favorites]
I know that that was intended as "manners punk", but that's not how I initially read it.
posted by Halloween Jack at 6:22 AM on October 2 [6 favorites]
more high-mindedly, we end up retreating from critical conversations about desire and power.
I mean, you fuck one couch...
posted by chavenet at 7:02 AM on October 2 [4 favorites]
I mean, you fuck one couch...
posted by chavenet at 7:02 AM on October 2 [4 favorites]
Now imagining Villette with a sex scene.
I think there are possible ones that would make Villette even more of itself, viz. painful. I’m good, thanks.
posted by clew at 8:50 AM on October 2 [2 favorites]
I think there are possible ones that would make Villette even more of itself, viz. painful. I’m good, thanks.
posted by clew at 8:50 AM on October 2 [2 favorites]
Based on their bookshelves back in the day, I think my parents were certified freaks, 7 days a week. They didn’t know I read all of their paperbacks of the late 1960s and early 1970s, including the very problematic “Call Me Brick” by Munroe Howard that sexualized a 9-year-old girl and her guardian. Not ok, but still very much in line with one of the most popular for men porn categories in 2024.
On the bright side, I also got to read their copy of “Fear of Flying” by Erica Jong, so there’s that.
posted by edithkeeler at 9:31 AM on October 2 [2 favorites]
On the bright side, I also got to read their copy of “Fear of Flying” by Erica Jong, so there’s that.
posted by edithkeeler at 9:31 AM on October 2 [2 favorites]
MetaFilter: hasn’t solved the problem of desire either
posted by doctornemo at 1:59 PM on October 2 [3 favorites]
posted by doctornemo at 1:59 PM on October 2 [3 favorites]
extremely fanficcy
Huh. I wasn't tuned in when I read Swordspoint, but yeah, that checks out now.
posted by away for regrooving at 11:10 PM on October 3
Huh. I wasn't tuned in when I read Swordspoint, but yeah, that checks out now.
posted by away for regrooving at 11:10 PM on October 3
Amusingly, I read Swordspoint before I had unfettered access to the internet and thus before I read any fanfic, so it was always "hey, this fanfic is just like Swordspoint" to me. People have mentioned in passing that Kushner actually wrote/writes fic and was one of the early fic-to-print authors.
Some years ago, I lent my old copy to an activist acquaintance who had heard of it as a key work of queer fantasy but who was obviously expecting something much more serious and returned it commenting that it was pretty lurid. At that point I hadn't read it in years, although I practically had it by heart in high school, and looking back, yes, it is a bit lurid. But wonderfully constructed! A real classic of the genre that, frankly, any big fantasy reader should look at.
It's funny, I always believed that I had the first edition but I don't - it makes sense, I thought I'd read it fairly close to when it came out but that really didn't make sense with a publication date of 1987. I got it from the library and immediately got my own copy.
That book has zero explicit sex scenes in it - everything fades to asterisks - and yet whew, it is the very definition of trashy in the sense of being absolutely fevered and driven by sexual tension. I can think of almost no fanfics that are so effectively organized around desire and romance, especially with the desire and romance integrated into and partially driving a political plot.
As a result, I can conclusively say that one does not need to have explicit sex scenes to deal with desire. In fact, while you could certainly add them to Swordspoint and they wouldn't be out of place, they wouldn't really add much to the story - they wouldn't tell you more about Richard and Alec or any of the other characters or do much to advance the plot. The novel is perfect as it is.
So yeah, I think that you can write a "trashy" book that deals effectively with sex and desire without writing actual erotica/porn into the story. And I'd say that this is true of A Marvellous Light, a recent novel that is very charming and ficcy although not as well-structured as Swordspoint - there's nothing wrong with/about the sex scenes, but the charm and effect of the book really doesn't lie them and the book would be just as enjoyable with the old-fashioned fade-to-black.
posted by Frowner at 6:00 AM on October 4 [3 favorites]
Some years ago, I lent my old copy to an activist acquaintance who had heard of it as a key work of queer fantasy but who was obviously expecting something much more serious and returned it commenting that it was pretty lurid. At that point I hadn't read it in years, although I practically had it by heart in high school, and looking back, yes, it is a bit lurid. But wonderfully constructed! A real classic of the genre that, frankly, any big fantasy reader should look at.
It's funny, I always believed that I had the first edition but I don't - it makes sense, I thought I'd read it fairly close to when it came out but that really didn't make sense with a publication date of 1987. I got it from the library and immediately got my own copy.
That book has zero explicit sex scenes in it - everything fades to asterisks - and yet whew, it is the very definition of trashy in the sense of being absolutely fevered and driven by sexual tension. I can think of almost no fanfics that are so effectively organized around desire and romance, especially with the desire and romance integrated into and partially driving a political plot.
As a result, I can conclusively say that one does not need to have explicit sex scenes to deal with desire. In fact, while you could certainly add them to Swordspoint and they wouldn't be out of place, they wouldn't really add much to the story - they wouldn't tell you more about Richard and Alec or any of the other characters or do much to advance the plot. The novel is perfect as it is.
So yeah, I think that you can write a "trashy" book that deals effectively with sex and desire without writing actual erotica/porn into the story. And I'd say that this is true of A Marvellous Light, a recent novel that is very charming and ficcy although not as well-structured as Swordspoint - there's nothing wrong with/about the sex scenes, but the charm and effect of the book really doesn't lie them and the book would be just as enjoyable with the old-fashioned fade-to-black.
posted by Frowner at 6:00 AM on October 4 [3 favorites]
Are books less spicy these days? I guess the SBTB folks would know! My assumption is usually 1) most people like media with sex 2) confoundingly, many of these people also like to COMPLAIN about the sex.
From the creator side of things, I'm surprised no one brought up the bad sex in fiction award. We had almost 30 years of bringing painful attention to poorly written sex. Some of the entries were...not really bad, probably, in context. Others were uniquely excruciating in a way that invited readers to wonder what the hell was wrong with the writers responsible. I have to wonder if this has had an impact; if an author is not really convinced of the value of the sex scene, maybe they're more likely to trim it out these days.
posted by grandiloquiet at 10:40 AM on October 4 [2 favorites]
From the creator side of things, I'm surprised no one brought up the bad sex in fiction award. We had almost 30 years of bringing painful attention to poorly written sex. Some of the entries were...not really bad, probably, in context. Others were uniquely excruciating in a way that invited readers to wonder what the hell was wrong with the writers responsible. I have to wonder if this has had an impact; if an author is not really convinced of the value of the sex scene, maybe they're more likely to trim it out these days.
posted by grandiloquiet at 10:40 AM on October 4 [2 favorites]
As a chronic reader of queer SFF and fanfic, and a pandemic-era reader of a few "romantasy" self-published novels, I keep thinking about this, because I tend to be annoyed when told that if I don't really want there to be sex scenes in a movie or a book, that's because I'm Opposed To Sex, or the world's oldest puriteen or whatever.
I feel like I encounter different categories of light fiction:
- novels that are not especially organized around sex and in which explicit sex or a big romance plot would feel actually extraneous - Lord of the Rings, China Mieville's novels, excellent fantasy graphic novel A Redtail's Dream, Ursula Le Guin's work.
- novels with sexual or romantic themes where explicit sex scenes aren't really needed even if they wouldn't seem disconnected, like Swordspoint or a lot of Samuel Delany.
- erotica and the sex or romance-focused subgenres of fanfic where the point is to write sex scenes and romances for readers to because they want to read sex scenes or romances specifically, and the test of the story is whether the story is so constructed as to make the sex scenes effective. Characterization and plot need to be effective, but in the service of writing effective sex scenes and romance.
- novels where the sexual relationship is key to the story and depicting it moves the plot along and tells us a lot about the characters, where sex scenes are major parts of the plot. On the more serious side, Samuel Delany's "I call it porn but it's really just my novels except more about sex" books like The Mad Man; on the lighter side, KJ Charles's Magpie books. The Delany is very style-forward and theme-forward rather than erotica-conventions forward; the KJ Charles is very romance-forward. Character and plot are determinative; the sex scenes are constructed to support the plot, not vice versa.
I don't particularly want to read stories with a lot of sex and romance in them unless I want to read stories with a lot of sex and romance in them, so to speak, and it gets to be sort of a bore when the convention becomes that everything in a particular subgenre has to have a hydraulics-focused sex scene or a lot of romantic angst. I find myself skipping the porn parts.
~~
Another thing that strikes me - there are a lot of serious or ambitious novels (you could write a very ambitious novel that wasn't serious at all!) that have explicit sex in them - some of Pat Barker's novels, Alan Hollinghurst's novels, etc etc etc - and yet because these are novels where the sexual material is well integrated into the novel as a whole and is treated descriptively rather than as erotica, we usually don't talk about those when we talk about sex scenes in novels. I might be happy to read The Swimming Pool Library at a time where I really wasn't in the mood to read some PWP on Archive of Our Own. Where is your god now, anti-puriteen people? Are they only sex scenes if they are primarily intended to arouse the reader?
posted by Frowner at 11:07 AM on October 4
I feel like I encounter different categories of light fiction:
- novels that are not especially organized around sex and in which explicit sex or a big romance plot would feel actually extraneous - Lord of the Rings, China Mieville's novels, excellent fantasy graphic novel A Redtail's Dream, Ursula Le Guin's work.
- novels with sexual or romantic themes where explicit sex scenes aren't really needed even if they wouldn't seem disconnected, like Swordspoint or a lot of Samuel Delany.
- erotica and the sex or romance-focused subgenres of fanfic where the point is to write sex scenes and romances for readers to because they want to read sex scenes or romances specifically, and the test of the story is whether the story is so constructed as to make the sex scenes effective. Characterization and plot need to be effective, but in the service of writing effective sex scenes and romance.
- novels where the sexual relationship is key to the story and depicting it moves the plot along and tells us a lot about the characters, where sex scenes are major parts of the plot. On the more serious side, Samuel Delany's "I call it porn but it's really just my novels except more about sex" books like The Mad Man; on the lighter side, KJ Charles's Magpie books. The Delany is very style-forward and theme-forward rather than erotica-conventions forward; the KJ Charles is very romance-forward. Character and plot are determinative; the sex scenes are constructed to support the plot, not vice versa.
I don't particularly want to read stories with a lot of sex and romance in them unless I want to read stories with a lot of sex and romance in them, so to speak, and it gets to be sort of a bore when the convention becomes that everything in a particular subgenre has to have a hydraulics-focused sex scene or a lot of romantic angst. I find myself skipping the porn parts.
~~
Another thing that strikes me - there are a lot of serious or ambitious novels (you could write a very ambitious novel that wasn't serious at all!) that have explicit sex in them - some of Pat Barker's novels, Alan Hollinghurst's novels, etc etc etc - and yet because these are novels where the sexual material is well integrated into the novel as a whole and is treated descriptively rather than as erotica, we usually don't talk about those when we talk about sex scenes in novels. I might be happy to read The Swimming Pool Library at a time where I really wasn't in the mood to read some PWP on Archive of Our Own. Where is your god now, anti-puriteen people? Are they only sex scenes if they are primarily intended to arouse the reader?
posted by Frowner at 11:07 AM on October 4
Funny you should mention that book, Frowner. My mother had it lying around when I was a little girl. I was a huge fan of both swimming pools and libraries, but I was old enough to know that sometimes titles didn’t actually mean what they said. I was definitely told that I wouldn’t like it at all. Now I suppose I would, although I read a pretty misogynistic excerpt. Still, the times were the times, and what are you going to do.
posted by Countess Elena at 8:31 AM on October 7
posted by Countess Elena at 8:31 AM on October 7
FTR I think a key part of The Swimming Pool Library is that the narrator is far, far more troubled, unhappy and misguided than he realizes, and even more so than, I think, the reader realizes until the very end of the book. I haven't read the book in a few years so it may be authentically misogynist for all I know, but if it's that the narrator, or even the diarist narrator, is misogynist, I don't think we're meant to take what they say and think as true.
posted by Frowner at 9:05 AM on October 7
posted by Frowner at 9:05 AM on October 7
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And then you have the fact that in much of North America the birth rate is dropping. There are a hell of a lot more people in recent decades who are not into sex. It reminds me of the Victorian era, when sensible couples didn't start their families until she was thirty, and prudery abounded. There were economic reasons behind the drop in the birthrate and the prudery. It was recently reported that the average age of a woman giving birth in Canada is now 31. It's true that not having kids doesn't directly correlate to not having sex, but not having sex does mostly correlate to not having kids. All those childless cat ladies may not want to read about sex, if they are disenchanted with their potential partners, or if they have decided to not do anything that could result in a pregnancy for economic reasons. It's easier and more fun to read things you can identify with, or at least which don't make you as anxious. I am pretty sure many of the readers would be a lot less horrified to discover their new boyfriend was an immortal from the fae world, than to discover that he was a guy who spends time on the men's rights forums and who snickers about knowing how to land a girlfriend by pretending her birthday matters to him. Since the perfect guy is imaginary, he might as well have those pointed ears and high cheekbones. That might sound more plausible to many readers than that he'll remember not to leave his drinking glass on the edge of the sink.
It's not like the books aren't about sex - but maybe they are mainly about courtship and foreplay. For some people that's the interesting part that actually turns them on. The more explicit mucus-membrane hydraulics, seen close up, aren't a turn on for a lot of people. And for a lot of women that kind of a focus makes the work feel like it was created for the male gaze.
posted by Jane the Brown at 10:53 AM on October 1 [18 favorites]